Why perfectionism could be holding you back, with Dr Julie Smith (E219)

This episode is a fascinating conversation about self-worth, perspective, and the power of saying no.

Dr. Julie Smith is a highly regarded clinical psychologist known for her compassionate approach to mental health care and expertise in cognitive-behavioral therapy.

With over two decades of experience, she has positively impacted the lives of countless individuals by helping them navigate the complexities of their emotional well-being.

In this episode, Dr Julie discusses how our choices today can lead to a better tomorrow, finding merit in balance throughout life, and focusing on what matters to us individuals. She explores how self worth is not based on what others think, but what we truly value.

Having worked with some of the most successful people, Dr Julie explains how many of these individuals have had some of the deepest struggles. She unravels our ‘unmet needs’ with Jake and Damian: love, belonging, and safety - and how in adulthood we can reflect on these to give perspective on day-to-day life.

- - - -

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# Podcast Episode Summary: The Power of Self-Worth and Saying No

**Key Points:**

- Our self-worth should not be based on others' opinions but on what we truly value.
- High performance often involves sacrifice and can come at a personal cost.
- It's important to make informed choices about our goals and to consider the potential impact on our well-being.
- The "104-year-old exercise" can help us reflect on our choices and make decisions that align with our long-term values.
- Unmet needs in childhood can lead to destructive behaviors in adulthood.
- Perfectionism can be a barrier to high performance and can lead to self-loathing.
- Self-compassion is essential for resilience and personal growth.

**Insights:**

- High performance is not just about achieving success but also about living a balanced and fulfilling life.
- Making good enough decisions is often better than striving for perfection.
- Being kind to ourselves, even in the face of failure, is crucial for maintaining motivation and drive.

**Controversies:**

- The debate over whether self-compassion can lead to complacency and a lack of motivation.
- The role of sacrifice and personal cost in achieving high performance.

**Overall Message:**

The pursuit of high performance should be guided by self-awareness, balance, and a focus on what truly matters to us. By embracing self-compassion and making informed choices, we can achieve our goals without compromising our well-being.

In this podcast episode, Dr. Julie Smith, a highly regarded clinical psychologist, engages in a compelling conversation about self-worth, perspective, and the transformative power of saying no. Dr. Smith emphasizes the importance of making choices today that lead to a better tomorrow and highlights the value of balance and prioritizing what truly matters in life. She challenges the notion that self-worth is dependent on external validation, advocating instead for self-validation based on personal values.

Dr. Smith draws upon her experiences working with successful individuals, revealing that many of them have faced profound struggles. She delves into the concept of unmet needs, particularly love, belonging, and safety, and explains how reflecting on these needs in adulthood can provide perspective on daily life.

Dr. Smith's journey from private practice to public advocacy is also explored. She candidly shares her initial reluctance to step into the public sphere, citing her introverted nature and discomfort with seeking attention. However, driven by a desire to make psychological education more accessible, she embarked on creating short-form educational videos. Despite initial self-doubt, the overwhelmingly positive feedback from viewers motivated her to continue.

The discussion also addresses the human tendency to focus on negative feedback, a cognitive bias known as the mental filter. Dr. Smith emphasizes the importance of self-awareness in recognizing and challenging biased thoughts, particularly those that reinforce negative self-beliefs. She suggests keeping a diary to track thoughts and identify biases, eventually leading to the ability to recognize them in the moment.

The episode concludes with a reminder that high performance is unique to each individual and encourages listeners to pursue their own version of success.

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[00:17.000 -> 00:23.000] This is the first and will be the only opportunity to sit and hear a live conversation with Serena
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[00:25.720 -> 00:30.360] on life and leadership. So if you want to relive the Euros triumph, if you want to find
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[00:39.700 -> 00:46.320] to be with us on the 8th of November at Westminster Chapel in London. And if you get a ticket,
[00:46.320 -> 00:51.180] the ticket will also come with a copy of Serena's new book. For more information and to bag
[00:51.180 -> 00:58.240] your place, go to the highperformancepodcast.com. That's the highperformancepodcast.com and
[00:58.240 -> 01:05.000] come and join us in London live with the England Lionesses manager Serena Wiegmann.
[01:05.000 -> 01:10.080] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the
[01:10.080 -> 01:13.280] minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet.
[01:13.280 -> 01:17.880] I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside Professor Damian Hughes, we learn from the stories,
[01:17.880 -> 01:23.760] successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow.
[01:23.760 -> 01:26.760] And today we're sharing with you part of a conversation we had recently
[01:26.760 -> 01:28.400] with the clinical psychologist
[01:28.400 -> 01:30.760] and number one best-selling author
[01:30.760 -> 01:34.620] of Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before, Dr. Julie Smith.
[01:34.620 -> 01:36.880] She joined us to talk about mental health.
[01:36.880 -> 01:39.720] She gave us some really interesting tips and advice
[01:39.720 -> 01:41.720] on how we can keep ourselves on the right track.
[01:41.720 -> 01:43.160] And I know for many of you,
[01:43.160 -> 01:45.560] this is gonna be a really important lesson. Now, the full conversation with Dr. Julie is already on the right track. And I know for many of you, this is gonna be a really important listen.
[01:45.560 -> 01:47.320] Now the full conversation with Dr. Julie
[01:47.320 -> 01:49.200] is already on the High Performance app.
[01:49.200 -> 01:50.720] It's about twice as long as this one.
[01:50.720 -> 01:52.040] So you can head there if you want to hear
[01:52.040 -> 01:53.020] the full conversation.
[01:53.020 -> 01:54.680] If you haven't got the High Performance app,
[01:54.680 -> 01:57.000] just go to the app store, download it,
[01:57.000 -> 02:01.560] and use your unique access code, HPAPP.
[02:01.560 -> 02:02.600] So let's get to it.
[02:02.600 -> 02:11.200] Dr. Julie Smith on high performance.
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[04:24.200 -> 04:26.880] Julie what a pleasure to have you on High Performance.
[04:26.880 -> 04:30.280] A pleasure to be here. I'm a real fan, so yeah, thanks for having me.
[04:30.280 -> 04:35.040] Thank you for coming and chatting to us. What is your definition of high performance?
[04:35.040 -> 04:39.360] I think if I was here a few years back, I probably would have given you a sort of textbook
[04:39.360 -> 04:49.640] idea of, okay, high performance is this, this, and this. But I think in reality, over the experiences I've had over the last probably 10 years,
[04:49.640 -> 04:54.240] not only in my work as a clinician, so working with people from all walks of life through
[04:54.240 -> 05:00.880] their worst moments, becoming a parent, and then also sort of delving into this sort of
[05:00.880 -> 05:05.180] public life, strange social media world.
[05:05.180 -> 05:11.360] I think it's really turned my idea of high performance on its head in some ways that
[05:11.360 -> 05:16.320] I think like most people I had this sort of template in my mind about high performance
[05:16.320 -> 05:22.360] being something that would happen at work and that would be confined to something that
[05:22.360 -> 05:25.800] I could do that's just one thing and you know
[05:25.800 -> 05:29.920] that's the thing that gets celebrated and you get acknowledgement for.
[05:29.920 -> 05:37.160] And actually I think in real life probably my moments of highest performance have actually
[05:37.160 -> 05:39.120] been at home.
[05:39.120 -> 05:42.840] And I started to kind of think you know I love your book and the different things about
[05:42.840 -> 05:49.280] high performance and I started to think why would I apply all this stuff to the work I get paid for and
[05:49.280 -> 05:50.940] not apply it at home?
[05:50.940 -> 05:56.500] And it's really helpful for me to think of that stuff in the context of what matters
[05:56.500 -> 05:57.500] most to me.
[05:57.500 -> 06:01.220] So, you know, when I'm being a parent and a partner and all those things, when it's
[06:01.220 -> 06:07.040] about things like focus, ultimate focus, being present, taking responsibility,
[06:07.040 -> 06:12.800] all those kind of things that has helped me through some really tough time.
[06:12.800 -> 06:14.720] You know, gosh, I've got three children.
[06:14.720 -> 06:19.160] So there's been plenty of nights when you know getting up every couple of hours to you
[06:19.160 -> 06:23.880] know tearful children and then having to get up and go to my job in the NHS the next day
[06:23.880 -> 06:25.000] and you know speak to half a dozen go to my job in the NHS the next day and you know,
[06:25.000 -> 06:29.000] speak to half a dozen people through that day about the darkest moments in their lives.
[06:29.000 -> 06:33.000] And for me that was probably in some ways the most difficult period,
[06:33.000 -> 06:36.000] but also probably my most high-performing.
[06:36.000 -> 06:40.000] Yeah, so I think it's really kind of my idea of high-performance has expanded
[06:40.000 -> 06:45.580] beyond that sort of initial template to living as a whole and that you can apply
[06:45.580 -> 06:47.340] these principles to everything.
[06:47.340 -> 06:48.880] I love that.
[06:48.880 -> 06:53.380] And also what I really like about that answer is it's a reminder that high performance isn't
[06:53.380 -> 06:54.780] about perfection, right?
[06:54.780 -> 07:00.740] And in the work that you do, I'm sure you sit with many people who feel that the struggles
[07:00.740 -> 07:05.560] and the challenges and the pain that they're living with means they can't be high performance.
[07:05.560 -> 07:09.920] And actually quite often the message is, my goodness, for you to get out of bed and come
[07:09.920 -> 07:16.000] here and meet me or to walk and buy a coffee or to get through another day is the epitome
[07:16.000 -> 07:17.960] actually of high performance for those people.
[07:17.960 -> 07:22.360] Yeah, I mean it's fascinating really when, you know, I've loved, you know, the podcast
[07:22.360 -> 07:25.680] for ages and it's almost like we're on a very similar
[07:25.680 -> 07:27.840] mission.
[07:27.840 -> 07:33.600] But while you guys take the skills and experiences from people who we consider to be really high
[07:33.600 -> 07:42.800] functioning and achieving and perhaps I work with people who are in their darkest moments
[07:42.800 -> 07:47.400] really struggling. I wanted to share the skills that they are
[07:47.400 -> 07:49.040] taught that helps them.
[07:49.040 -> 07:53.400] If you put well-being on like a scale and you know, in my job I might take someone from
[07:53.400 -> 07:57.600] minus five to zero, make them kind of okay and then you guys are looking, well how do
[07:57.600 -> 08:01.520] we get from zero to plus five and that sort of positive psychology approach.
[08:01.520 -> 08:07.360] So it's almost like we're both coming from different angles towards the same thing. How do we improve life and make life
[08:07.920 -> 08:13.280] easier or build strength so that we can live in a way that's sort of more fulfilling.
[08:14.000 -> 08:19.840] So if you think about like two circles like in the Venn diagram, the bit that overlaps then,
[08:19.840 -> 08:25.280] the bit where the circles meet, what are the kind of things that you've seen from people
[08:25.280 -> 08:30.120] coming from that other position on the spectrum that we could learn from that you understand
[08:30.120 -> 08:31.120] high performances?
[08:31.120 -> 08:37.640] Yeah, do you know, and I've worked with lots of people that, you know, would be classic
[08:37.640 -> 08:48.760] kind of guests on the podcast actually, but from a different place. You know, maybe they've lost a career through injury or are struggling with the pressures
[08:48.760 -> 08:50.600] of that work or all those kind of things.
[08:50.600 -> 08:55.200] So it's almost like the sort of darker side of high performance, if you like, and some
[08:55.200 -> 09:00.880] of the costs and sacrifices that have to happen for high performance to occur.
[09:00.880 -> 09:07.640] And so I guess, you know, when you think about the sorts of things that people apply to high
[09:07.640 -> 09:14.040] performance, none of that comes without sacrifice or without a cost somewhere else.
[09:14.040 -> 09:20.280] And, and it's when those costs become too much, then my part comes in and, and, and
[09:20.280 -> 09:27.880] it often involves a big re-evaluation of whose goal is this and why does it matter
[09:27.880 -> 09:30.080] to you if it does at all.
[09:30.080 -> 09:35.360] That's probably been a big part of that work, sort of reconnecting with is this a goal you
[09:35.360 -> 09:40.560] truly want and if so why and where those barriers are, that kind of thing.
[09:40.560 -> 09:45.320] So could you articulate what, like, one of the comments my wife often makes to
[09:45.320 -> 09:50.880] me about some of the people we interview is that how rounded are they or how happy are
[09:50.880 -> 09:57.760] they or do we touch on the family circumstances because we sometimes don't touch on that.
[09:57.760 -> 10:02.200] What have you seen is the cost of some of these high performers that you've interviewed
[10:02.200 -> 10:06.640] then that you do explore those areas that maybe we don't always touch on?
[10:06.640 -> 10:09.280] Yeah, I think it's interesting, isn't it?
[10:09.280 -> 10:13.600] Because you get this sort of in some of the sort of interviews or if you hear stories
[10:13.600 -> 10:18.600] from elsewhere as well, from people who are, you know, the best at what they do, it's because
[10:18.600 -> 10:22.480] they have this sort of ultimate focus on that thing.
[10:22.480 -> 10:26.680] And that's the thing that, that you know they get celebrated for.
[10:26.680 -> 10:30.920] And I guess a lot of us maybe then tell ourselves that's what we should be doing you know we
[10:30.920 -> 10:35.240] should be so focused on something that we can be the best at it and then be celebrated
[10:35.240 -> 10:37.900] for it and be recognized for that.
[10:37.900 -> 10:46.720] But I think there's merit in having balance and focusing on all the things that matter to you because often some of those
[10:46.720 -> 10:52.680] costs involve things that cause people to really struggle later in life.
[10:52.680 -> 10:58.360] So there's a lovely quote and I can't remember who it was about regret and how you know being
[10:58.360 -> 11:04.800] human means that you can't go through life without some sort of regret because it's a
[11:04.800 -> 11:06.000] human emotion,
[11:06.000 -> 11:07.000] right?
[11:07.000 -> 11:12.560] But you can make really careful choices that ensure the regrets that you do end up with
[11:12.560 -> 11:14.480] are the ones you can live with.
[11:14.480 -> 11:18.920] And that's really always stuck for me about sort of making certain choices about what
[11:18.920 -> 11:20.400] you apply yourself to.
[11:20.400 -> 11:22.960] Certain things can become really addictive too, right?
[11:22.960 -> 11:28.640] Because when you get celebrated for something or the rewards are great, the temptation is
[11:28.640 -> 11:32.000] to just go for that with a tunnel vision.
[11:32.000 -> 11:35.720] And then it's only when you come up for a later that you go, oh gosh, actually there's
[11:35.720 -> 11:37.680] some stuff that I really value back there.
[11:37.680 -> 11:41.920] Maybe it's family life or relationships or any of that kind of thing.
[11:41.920 -> 11:49.460] And you can really, I mean, I've seen it and people can take themselves into a sort
[11:49.460 -> 11:53.820] of big empty space, a very lonely place.
[11:53.820 -> 12:02.020] And so I think when it comes to high performance, has to come with informed choice and reflection
[12:02.020 -> 12:05.440] around what are your values and why are you approaching
[12:05.440 -> 12:11.240] this and why does it matter to you and are you willing to make the sacrifices necessary?
[12:11.240 -> 12:12.720] Are you going to be okay with that?
[12:12.720 -> 12:16.920] One of the exercises actually from acceptance and commitment therapy that I love and it's
[12:16.920 -> 12:22.400] really sort of influenced me personally is this approach where we go, okay, imagine you're
[12:22.400 -> 12:25.120] 104 and you're sat in your armchair and you're
[12:25.120 -> 12:29.200] looking back on this part of your life, this next chapter to come.
[12:29.200 -> 12:35.000] What choices that you could make now would lead to you looking back with a big smile
[12:35.000 -> 12:38.400] in your face thinking, yes, I did the right thing.
[12:38.400 -> 12:42.240] And you kind of sit and you, you know, I mean, we would take, you know, lots of time over
[12:42.240 -> 12:45.400] that and really reflect on it in detail.
[12:45.400 -> 12:51.660] And it's really revealing when it comes to what truly matters to you and what's going
[12:51.660 -> 12:52.880] to matter in the future.
[12:52.880 -> 12:56.780] So something that feels like it matters now won't necessarily in the future.
[12:56.780 -> 12:59.300] And often that comes down to things like relationships, right?
[12:59.300 -> 13:05.520] And family and health and personal missions and things that feel meaningful.
[13:05.520 -> 13:11.240] So would you tell us why that exercise of projecting forward and looking back, why is
[13:11.240 -> 13:13.480] that so effective?
[13:13.480 -> 13:18.320] I think because when we're in the moment, we're driven by either aversion to something
[13:18.320 -> 13:24.280] that's painful or reward that's coming soon and we're not accustomed to looking way into
[13:24.280 -> 13:25.400] the future about how things
[13:25.400 -> 13:26.880] might affect us later on, right?
[13:26.880 -> 13:29.080] That's why we make silly decisions.
[13:29.080 -> 13:35.680] And so allowing yourself time to project yourself into the future and how you look back and
[13:35.680 -> 13:39.680] often you can do it with the idea of a year from now.
[13:39.680 -> 13:47.960] If you're in a sort of tricky situation, when I look back on this period in a year's time, what
[13:47.960 -> 13:48.960] am I going to do now?
[13:48.960 -> 13:53.560] What am I going to choose now that means I'm going to look back with a sense of pride?
[13:53.560 -> 13:58.000] Whether it's good times or bad, am I going to be pleased with how I face this and what
[13:58.000 -> 14:00.000] I brought to the situation?
[14:00.000 -> 14:03.800] Am I going to have helped the situation and not made it worse?
[14:03.800 -> 14:06.800] Am I going to have been of service to the people around worse? Am I gonna have, you know, been of service to the people around me, you know, if it's
[14:06.800 -> 14:09.760] a really difficult situation kind of thing.
[14:09.760 -> 14:14.680] Is there also a conversation we need to have on this podcast about even the title of this
[14:14.680 -> 14:20.080] podcast high performance, you know, linking success, linking happiness, linking reward
[14:20.080 -> 14:27.480] to high performance or having things, you know, we've all seen the recent documentary about Lewis Capaldi, who says, the bigger
[14:27.480 -> 14:31.120] my success became, the greater my mental health challenges.
[14:31.120 -> 14:36.200] And actually, that is a common conversation across so many of the guests that we've had
[14:36.200 -> 14:37.200] on this podcast.
[14:37.200 -> 14:41.440] And I think that we need to use this as a space to have this conversation that what
[14:41.440 -> 14:49.420] we're not saying is, achieve great things and you'll achieve great happiness. The two are not linked. In fact, the two often are not very comfortable
[14:49.420 -> 14:50.720] bedfellows, are they?
[14:50.720 -> 14:54.600] Yeah, and it's something about, you know, there's that idea, isn't there, of you could
[14:54.600 -> 15:00.040] achieve huge, huge success and lots of people you don't ever get to meet will remember you
[15:00.040 -> 15:07.200] for a while and you could lose a lot in the process or you could still do that thing and
[15:07.200 -> 15:11.580] recognize that maybe your self-worth isn't based on that but based on lots of other things
[15:11.580 -> 15:12.580] that you value.
[15:12.580 -> 15:19.020] I mean that probably goes for you know in my work and with how everything's happened
[15:19.020 -> 15:26.480] and that I have lots of these amazing opportunities to do these incredible things but I will only take on what I can
[15:27.360 -> 15:33.520] that won't impact on my family too greatly. So and I'm so grateful that that kind of thing has
[15:33.520 -> 15:39.280] happened that little bit later in life for me where I already have a solid relationship and
[15:39.280 -> 15:46.900] three children that you know and I have very clear in my mind what my values are and where my
[15:46.900 -> 15:48.960] self-worth is based.
[15:48.960 -> 15:53.460] And it's not in how many likes I get on the next video or you know, how many books sell
[15:53.460 -> 15:54.460] or anything like that.
[15:54.460 -> 15:55.940] That can come and go and that's fine.
[15:55.940 -> 15:57.480] I'm fine with that.
[15:57.480 -> 16:01.500] Which helps me to probably take risks in that area but it also helps me to be okay with
[16:01.500 -> 16:02.500] saying no to stuff.
[16:02.500 -> 16:05.240] I say no to a lot of stuff, either because it doesn't
[16:05.240 -> 16:10.640] match the sort of mission I had in the first place or because I know it will impact on
[16:10.640 -> 16:12.560] the rest of my life that actually matters to me.
[16:12.560 -> 16:17.560] So you're in a place that lots of people would love to be, right? I'm probably one of them,
[16:17.560 -> 16:23.640] where download numbers, views on your social media, follows on your social media, the sort
[16:23.640 -> 16:25.480] of the way we measure impact
[16:25.480 -> 16:29.880] in the modern world, you know, I think it's really powerful that it doesn't have that
[16:29.880 -> 16:31.560] impact upon you.
[16:31.560 -> 16:35.640] What work do you do with people when they come to you and say, I have so much, but I
[16:35.640 -> 16:36.640] feel so dead?
[16:36.640 -> 16:39.680] This has been quite a lot of that, to be fair.
[16:39.680 -> 16:45.800] It's obviously very private work, but people just wouldn't believe that some of the people I've worked
[16:45.800 -> 16:52.520] with who outwardly appear to be the most successful have been among the unhappiest and have had
[16:52.520 -> 16:53.760] the deepest struggles.
[16:53.760 -> 16:59.000] But it really tells you that it's an inside job, you know, if you don't have your mental
[16:59.000 -> 17:04.280] health sorted out, then you could achieve everything.
[17:04.280 -> 17:05.860] And in those quiet moments after that goal
[17:05.860 -> 17:10.760] is reached, it's going to be hell for you, your own little personal version of hell.
[17:10.760 -> 17:18.800] So it always goes back to the basics and working out what need was there that maybe you've
[17:18.800 -> 17:25.100] tried to fill with this mission and then worked out that it's not filling that. Or you know it
[17:25.100 -> 17:27.820] might not be that at all, it might be that that you know that's still something
[17:27.820 -> 17:31.400] they really love but there's also this thing on the side that's separate but
[17:31.400 -> 17:35.500] still causing pain. So in your clinical practice then Julie, do you have almost
[17:35.500 -> 17:40.900] like a checklist that you would run through of to almost explore what is it
[17:40.900 -> 17:46.300] that would cause somebody not to have a stable mental relationship with mental
[17:46.300 -> 17:47.300] health?
[17:47.300 -> 17:48.300] Not so much.
[17:48.300 -> 17:52.640] So you have, I mean, a psychiatrist would work from a sort of medical perspective.
[17:52.640 -> 17:56.580] So they'll often work with kind of lists of symptoms and they're trying to find a suitable
[17:56.580 -> 18:00.400] label that, you know, for that cluster of symptoms and then medicate.
[18:00.400 -> 18:02.980] Whereas psychologists work with the individual.
[18:02.980 -> 18:06.240] So it's very much, we will formulate a situation.
[18:06.240 -> 18:11.320] So I remember actually when I was training and I was apologizing to my supervisor saying,
[18:11.320 -> 18:12.880] sorry, this formulation is really messy.
[18:12.880 -> 18:14.600] And she said, life is messy.
[18:14.600 -> 18:17.240] So if your formulations are messy, you've missed something.
[18:17.240 -> 18:21.840] And you really kind of map out with someone the cycles that they're stuck in and what's
[18:21.840 -> 18:22.840] going on.
[18:22.840 -> 18:25.460] And that's such a massive theme
[18:25.460 -> 18:30.120] is you know someone will come along and say I'm doing these things I don't know why I'm
[18:30.120 -> 18:33.600] doing these things but I can't stop doing them and I know it's having a detrimental
[18:33.600 -> 18:34.600] effect on my life.
[18:34.600 -> 18:40.000] Whatever that thing is the detail changes but generally that theme is really consistent
[18:40.000 -> 18:44.800] and so you sort of map out okay this happens you feel this and then you do this and you
[18:44.800 -> 18:45.800] think that about yourself so then you do more of that okay, this happens, you feel this, and then you do this, and you think that about yourself.
[18:45.800 -> 18:48.080] So then you do more of that or less of that.
[18:48.080 -> 18:50.520] And you can kind of start to see these cycles.
[18:50.520 -> 18:55.040] There's such benefit in doing that because you get to have this sort of bird's eye view
[18:55.040 -> 18:56.040] on your own life.
[18:56.040 -> 18:58.900] Oh, that's what I'm doing.
[18:58.900 -> 19:01.760] And it doesn't change anything instantly.
[19:01.760 -> 19:06.000] But you get this sort of awareness in hindsight so you'll go to
[19:06.000 -> 19:09.460] therapy and say yeah I did that last week then I did that and da da da and then over
[19:09.460 -> 19:13.280] time when you repeat that you start to get that awareness in the moment as
[19:13.280 -> 19:17.580] you're going around the cycle you go oh I know where I am in the cycle and that
[19:17.580 -> 19:23.520] sort of opens up this opportunity to choose okay I know I'm feeling this and
[19:23.520 -> 19:26.320] I know I have the urge to do that, I can either
[19:26.320 -> 19:32.080] go with it or I can take the exit and I know from previously talking about it in therapy
[19:32.080 -> 19:34.760] what the other direction is I could go in.
[19:34.760 -> 19:39.040] Can you explain about unmet needs and whether this kind of ties into everything that we're
[19:39.040 -> 19:40.040] talking about here?
[19:40.040 -> 19:46.220] So when I talk about unmet needs, I'm really talking about those basic human needs for
[19:46.220 -> 19:52.000] love and belonging and safety, you know, psychological safety and those sorts of things that are
[19:52.000 -> 19:54.080] in us and they're not going anywhere.
[19:54.080 -> 19:59.920] But modern life isn't necessarily set up for those to happen all the time or be met, those
[19:59.920 -> 20:01.200] needs to be met.
[20:01.200 -> 20:03.600] And also, you know, you don't get to choose what family you're born into.
[20:03.600 -> 20:09.080] So sometimes, well, all the time, it is imperfect, right? And so, I think when you then get into
[20:09.080 -> 20:15.200] adulthood, it's really helpful to look back at unmet needs, because it informs what you're
[20:15.200 -> 20:21.960] doing now. And often, if a key need was not met in your childhood, you know, that need
[20:21.960 -> 20:27.640] for a sense of belonging, for example, maybe you felt left out or rejected from your family or something.
[20:27.640 -> 20:30.560] That feeling is not going to disappear just because you've moved out of home.
[20:30.560 -> 20:33.320] It will then pop up in your relationships.
[20:33.320 -> 20:36.360] And then you'll have these safety behaviors, probably ones that kept you safe when you
[20:36.360 -> 20:39.840] were younger and worked when you were younger in an environment where you were dependent.
[20:39.840 -> 20:42.800] But in an adult relationship, they no longer work, right?
[20:42.800 -> 20:45.240] And they just cause problems in your relationship.
[20:45.240 -> 20:49.360] And so, you know, we can then really get down on ourselves about what we're doing and why
[20:49.360 -> 20:50.360] am I doing that?
[20:50.360 -> 20:52.040] I'm a relationship and I'm ruining everything.
[20:52.040 -> 20:56.080] And actually, if we look at that with curiosity, we get to see that there's this need under
[20:56.080 -> 21:01.460] there that causes that really strong urge to be controlling to a partner or cheat or
[21:01.460 -> 21:03.840] do these things that cause destruction.
[21:03.840 -> 21:08.960] There's usually something under there that has led to that urge to happen.
[21:08.960 -> 21:13.700] And then once you understand where that urge is coming from, you get more choice whether
[21:13.700 -> 21:15.140] you act on it or not.
[21:15.140 -> 21:20.100] So if there was anybody listening to this and that was thinking, I'd like to go and
[21:20.100 -> 21:26.560] excavate my childhood just to find out what are the needs that maybe drive some of these impulses today.
[21:27.440 -> 21:32.000] The obvious first step is to come and speak to somebody like yourself, an expert on it, but
[21:32.000 -> 21:37.280] if they don't have access to that or maybe they're not sure of how to do it, what kind of questions
[21:37.280 -> 21:47.160] can we be asking ourselves that we could start this process? I think start with just, you don't want to kind of rush into stuff. If you know
[21:47.160 -> 21:53.840] that there's really painful things that actually you've been avoiding or pushing away for a
[21:53.840 -> 21:59.160] reason because it's too overwhelming and you're not sure that you can kind of manage that,
[21:59.160 -> 22:05.680] then take it slow. And only do it if you have safe ways to manage painful emotion.
[22:05.680 -> 22:07.240] So, there are lots of people out there that don't.
[22:07.240 -> 22:13.320] And so then, you know, risky or unhealthy behaviors will pop up as soon as you go there.
[22:13.320 -> 22:19.080] A therapist would never ask you to talk about in-depth trauma experiences
[22:19.080 -> 22:23.880] without first making sure that you have the tools to cope with the painful emotion that's going to come up, right?
[22:23.880 -> 22:24.440] It's overwhelming.
[22:24.440 -> 22:25.600] There's a reason we got all these, you know, numbing behaviors that just make it go away. sure that you have the tools to cope with the painful emotion that's going to come up, right? It's overwhelming.
[22:25.600 -> 22:28.640] There's a reason we got all these, you know, numbing behaviors that just make it go away
[22:28.640 -> 22:30.360] and it's because it's overwhelming.
[22:30.360 -> 22:35.960] So, they'll often teach you the skills first to manage difficult emotion and then you're
[22:35.960 -> 22:37.240] more equipped to go with it.
[22:37.240 -> 22:42.120] I really like it when you talk about making a good enough decision because I think for
[22:42.120 -> 22:45.120] some people, you know, you have to make the perfect decision.
[22:45.120 -> 22:49.320] Actually, a good enough decision, as you explained, is often good enough.
[22:49.320 -> 22:53.320] Yeah, and perfectionism is, it's interesting, isn't it, the way people talk about perfectionism
[22:53.320 -> 22:56.920] as if it's like a, you know, you'll often say in an interview, I'm a perfectionist,
[22:56.920 -> 23:01.440] so you know, employ me, I'll do really well. And actually, it's been described by lots
[23:01.440 -> 23:11.720] of therapists as like a 10-ton shield, where it makes you feel like you're safe, but actually it stops you from being yourself and being free to
[23:11.720 -> 23:12.720] take risks.
[23:12.720 -> 23:14.440] And it's paralyzing for a lot of people.
[23:14.440 -> 23:21.040] So a lot of people who are perfectionists will decide not to take that risk because
[23:21.040 -> 23:25.580] in the face of failure, they can't treat themselves with kindness or respect.
[23:25.580 -> 23:29.760] They're going to tip into absolute self-loathing.
[23:29.760 -> 23:35.880] And it's that absolute intolerance of imperfection that makes it incredibly difficult to take
[23:35.880 -> 23:37.880] the risks that you need for something like high performance.
[23:37.880 -> 23:41.520] You know, high performance and perfectionism are enemies, really.
[23:41.520 -> 23:45.740] I mean, even doing this stuff for me, I had to let go of any ideas
[23:45.740 -> 23:50.320] of perfectionism in order to even be able to do it. Because you're vulnerable, you're
[23:50.320 -> 23:55.380] out there. I mean, even here, right? I could say the wrong thing. It could go everywhere.
[23:55.380 -> 24:00.960] There's always that risk, you're vulnerable. And I think for me personally, the only way
[24:00.960 -> 24:11.760] truly that I've been able to do that, the most valuable tool that I've had all the way along is the 100% commitment to myself that in the face of failure, when I fall,
[24:11.760 -> 24:16.100] and when it all goes wrong and I humiliate myself on live TV or whatever, that I'll have
[24:16.100 -> 24:24.800] my own back and I will treat myself with the absolute respect and compassion that my own
[24:24.800 -> 24:25.960] personal coach would.
[24:25.960 -> 24:26.960] You know?
[24:26.960 -> 24:28.520] That's like an easy thing to say.
[24:28.520 -> 24:30.720] It's actually a really difficult thing to do.
[24:30.720 -> 24:31.720] Yeah.
[24:31.720 -> 24:32.720] Oh, yeah.
[24:32.720 -> 24:35.920] How do we go about being that kind to ourselves?
[24:35.920 -> 24:37.720] By not being perfectionist about it.
[24:37.720 -> 24:42.560] So, you know, in moments where I get something wrong, the instinct and the first thing that
[24:42.560 -> 24:45.560] comes to mind is, are you stupid?
[24:45.560 -> 24:51.160] So it's not about not having those thoughts, it's about not letting them go unchecked.
[24:51.160 -> 24:53.640] So noticing, whoa, massive self-questioning.
[24:53.640 -> 24:58.360] Which then totally changes our relationship with risk because it no longer becomes a risk.
[24:58.360 -> 25:00.080] Because you're going to be kind to yourself if it fails.
[25:00.080 -> 25:01.080] Yeah, yeah.
[25:01.080 -> 25:03.720] And I remember that image of, oh, it was awful, wasn't it?
[25:03.720 -> 25:08.000] The synchronized swimmer who passed out under the water, and there's a video of the coach
[25:08.000 -> 25:10.720] who dives down and pulls her back up.
[25:10.720 -> 25:16.240] And that was really stuck with me that we go through life and we don't have that person.
[25:16.240 -> 25:22.560] But when it all goes to hell, and bad things are happening, you have to be that person
[25:22.560 -> 25:24.360] for yourself a lot of the time.
[25:24.360 -> 25:27.820] So a lot of people that we would, you know, associate with high performance
[25:27.820 -> 25:33.700] that have, you know, been in my office, have really resisted any kind of idea of talking
[25:33.700 -> 25:36.020] to yourself nicely or self compassion.
[25:36.020 -> 25:40.300] And it's often there's this sort of misconception that it's self indulgence.
[25:40.300 -> 25:43.940] And that if I'm nice to myself, I'm going to lose all my drive and I'm not going to
[25:43.940 -> 25:44.940] achieve anything.
[25:44.940 -> 25:46.000] You lose your edge. Oh, yeah. Be horrible to myself, I'm going to lose all my drive and I'm not going to achieve anything. You lose your edge. Be horrible to myself.
[25:46.000 -> 25:50.000] Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, the data just doesn't show that. That, you know,
[25:50.000 -> 25:57.360] if you're self-critical, it's much more likely to lead to depression than self-compassion. You
[25:57.360 -> 26:00.480] know, you can have a sense of drive from a sense of respect. And there's a reason, you know,
[26:00.480 -> 26:05.600] if you get these elite athletes, they don't employ their old high school bully
[26:05.600 -> 26:06.600] to be their coach.
[26:06.600 -> 26:07.960] Why would they, right?
[26:07.960 -> 26:12.320] They employ someone that they trust, that has respect for them, that genuinely wants
[26:12.320 -> 26:16.680] them to achieve their absolute best and beyond, that's always going to be there to pick them
[26:16.680 -> 26:20.980] up if they're struggling or dive down the pool and grab them if they see that, you know,
[26:20.980 -> 26:22.380] and there's a reason for that, right?
[26:22.380 -> 26:23.380] Because it works.
[26:23.380 -> 26:26.800] We recently read some research by a guy called Ethan Cross that said that
[26:26.800 -> 26:31.520] speaking to yourself like you'd speak to a toddler is actually a really effective
[26:31.520 -> 26:35.160] way of getting yourself through difficult moments so I'm interested in
[26:35.160 -> 26:39.880] exploring when you made the brave decision to come out of private practice
[26:39.880 -> 26:45.920] and your private clinician work to then make that leap into going into the public sphere
[26:45.920 -> 26:52.560] and doing this really important work with the book and the videos that you do.
[26:52.560 -> 26:55.440] What were the kind of messages you were saying to yourself then?
[26:55.440 -> 26:58.600] How did you convince yourself to take that initial leap?
[26:58.600 -> 27:03.200] You know, it's a really interesting question because I didn't really want to do it.
[27:03.200 -> 27:05.100] I'm a massive introvert, I'm
[27:05.100 -> 27:09.000] never more comfortable than I am at my desk with all my books and like you know
[27:09.000 -> 27:12.680] geeking out on psychology stuff. I was trying to think of any possible way that
[27:12.680 -> 27:16.640] we could make videos without me being in them. It didn't come naturally, like it
[27:16.640 -> 27:22.320] didn't feel like I don't get a buzz from the sort of attention of it
[27:22.320 -> 27:25.600] or anything like that. That's been something for me to overcome in order to do it.
[27:25.600 -> 27:28.800] So what was the buzz then? What was the reason of wanting to do it?
[27:28.800 -> 27:33.200] Yeah, so the initial thing was that all these people that were coming to therapy,
[27:33.200 -> 27:36.800] people think that you just do a lot of talking in therapy, and you do,
[27:36.800 -> 27:39.200] but you also learn a lot about how your mind works.
[27:39.200 -> 27:46.160] And I found that so many people that were sort of accessing some of those bits of education
[27:46.160 -> 27:49.600] were then turning around and going, I think I'm alright.
[27:49.600 -> 27:54.880] You know, I've got this really difficult thing coming up, but I know, you know, I know I've
[27:54.880 -> 27:58.660] got these tools now that I can apply when I go along.
[27:58.660 -> 28:01.080] And there was this kind of resilience building up.
[28:01.080 -> 28:08.960] So yeah, I used to just harp on to my poor husband about how this should be more available, you know, all that kind of stuff. So he just kind of solved it a bit
[28:08.960 -> 28:12.000] too. So I wanted to complain a bit longer, but he said, well, come on, then make it available.
[28:12.000 -> 28:16.240] I'm thinking, oh, no, no, I need to do it. So I made a few YouTube videos and stuff.
[28:16.240 -> 28:20.880] And that was the beginning of the short form video stuff. So we thought, you know, let's
[28:20.880 -> 28:25.320] just share some of this educational stuff in like bite-sized form.
[28:25.320 -> 28:28.440] I honestly thought it'd be one of those projects you do for a while, and then it fizzles out,
[28:28.440 -> 28:32.240] like it feels like a nice thing to do, let's make it free, and like doing myself out of
[28:32.240 -> 28:33.240] a job.
[28:33.240 -> 28:38.160] And it just, almost instantly, there were these messages coming through from people
[28:38.160 -> 28:42.800] saying, I never thought of it like that, I've got this problem, and that was really helpful,
[28:42.800 -> 28:43.800] what's the next bit?
[28:43.800 -> 28:44.800] What's the detail?
[28:44.800 -> 28:45.800] What's the next part? And I the detail? What's the next part?
[28:45.800 -> 28:49.400] And I'm thinking, oh my goodness, I'm actually reaching real people.
[28:49.400 -> 28:51.120] I didn't imagine they'd even listen.
[28:51.120 -> 28:55.000] You know, and when my husband said, you know, try this TikTok thing.
[28:55.000 -> 28:56.840] I was like, no way, no way.
[28:56.840 -> 28:57.840] You know, how vulnerable is that?
[28:57.840 -> 28:58.840] I'm a professional.
[28:58.840 -> 29:01.160] What are all my peers going to say?
[29:01.160 -> 29:04.560] So it was swimming against the tide professionally.
[29:04.560 -> 29:05.440] And I never thought
[29:05.440 -> 29:09.960] it would lead to anything in the way of kind of respect or admiration. I thought
[29:09.960 -> 29:13.220] it was gonna be embarrassing but it just felt like the right thing to do.
[29:13.220 -> 29:17.280] But in the way our brains inevitably work, I'm sure you were getting thousands of
[29:17.280 -> 29:20.440] bits of positive feedback from people saying this is helping me, this is
[29:20.440 -> 29:24.480] giving me a perspective I couldn't have hoped to achieve without you set, but
[29:24.480 -> 29:25.000] inevitably there'll have been some people that would have criticized or had me, this is giving me a perspective I couldn't have hoped to achieve without you, but inevitably
[29:25.000 -> 29:29.500] there will have been some people that would have criticized or had some snide observation
[29:29.500 -> 29:33.820] to make and our brains are instantly attracted to the negative.
[29:33.820 -> 29:37.500] I'm interested in how you would have countered that.
[29:37.500 -> 29:43.660] Yeah, it's interesting actually because that's where I think my why helped my really strong
[29:43.660 -> 29:45.560] sense of I already had this life that
[29:45.560 -> 29:47.360] I was happy with.
[29:47.360 -> 29:50.120] I wasn't doing it for social validation, which was key.
[29:50.120 -> 29:51.800] I had this mission.
[29:51.800 -> 29:55.920] So if someone said, Oh, your hair doesn't look good today or I hate that jumper or what
[29:55.920 -> 30:00.440] you know, whatever, I was able to kind of calibrate that I'm not doing it for that.
[30:00.440 -> 30:04.420] My only sort of criteria for each video was it had something in it that could be helpful
[30:04.420 -> 30:06.100] to someone.
[30:06.100 -> 30:10.900] And so if I got the lighting badly done or you know, whatever, I could deal with the
[30:10.900 -> 30:15.320] imperfection of it because some videos that Kate that I put out that I wasn't really happy
[30:15.320 -> 30:18.640] with, I would get floods of messages about how helpful that was.
[30:18.640 -> 30:23.340] And I think, okay, I can be out there imperfectly and have a positive impact.
[30:23.340 -> 30:24.340] How fantastic is that?
[30:24.340 -> 30:29.120] But I did I did get to a point where in the early days, I think, where I, there was that buzz
[30:29.120 -> 30:31.760] of, oh, you know, look at the comments or those kind of things.
[30:31.760 -> 30:36.040] And I noticed, I still remember the moment where I noticed that I was scanning through,
[30:36.040 -> 30:40.520] there were like 300 comments, and I'm scanning through all these lovely, really positive
[30:40.520 -> 30:43.160] comments at high speed looking for the negative.
[30:43.160 -> 30:44.960] Whoa, okay, enough.
[30:44.960 -> 30:46.160] And now I don't go on there. So my husband... Why do our brains do that? really positive comments at high speed looking for the negative. Whoa, okay, enough.
[30:46.160 -> 30:47.160] And now I don't go on there.
[30:47.160 -> 30:48.160] So, my husband...
[30:48.160 -> 30:49.760] Why do our brains do that?
[30:49.760 -> 30:51.080] So I did a video on that.
[30:51.080 -> 30:55.880] My video for it came out of that experience because I'm thinking, okay, I know this stuff,
[30:55.880 -> 30:57.880] I need to apply it.
[30:57.880 -> 31:00.840] But there's a sort of cognitive bias that we call the mental filter.
[31:00.840 -> 31:06.160] And it happens to all of us at any point, but happens more if you're struggling with
[31:06.160 -> 31:11.040] depression or something like that, where you will filter out all the positives and look
[31:11.040 -> 31:12.280] for the negatives.
[31:12.280 -> 31:13.520] Because there's this seed of doubt, right?
[31:13.520 -> 31:17.480] It might match your self-belief that you weren't good enough in some way or whatever.
[31:17.480 -> 31:22.520] And so your mind will look for information that confirms your belief about yourself.
[31:22.520 -> 31:24.920] So if you, you know, put something out into the world and you don't believe you're any
[31:24.920 -> 31:26.280] good at it,
[31:26.280 -> 31:31.520] you'll look for the information and if it's one comment out of 5,000, you'll find it and
[31:31.520 -> 31:36.000] then that will be your confirmation that you are right about yourself despite all the other
[31:36.000 -> 31:37.600] information that's different.
[31:37.600 -> 31:41.360] And how can you unpick that in somebody?
[31:41.360 -> 31:42.360] Through self-awareness.
[31:42.360 -> 31:47.080] So often it will be, we'll literally keep diaries around what were
[31:47.080 -> 31:51.400] the thoughts that came up in certain situations, were any of those biased? You know, because
[31:51.400 -> 31:55.720] there are lots of, there's like the mental filter, black and white thinking, all these
[31:55.720 -> 32:00.600] different, you know, catastrophic thinking. And you go back and you say, okay, well, you
[32:00.600 -> 32:08.440] thought that at that point, was that one of the biases? And if it is bias, shall we take it apart a bit because then it's not a true reflection
[32:08.440 -> 32:10.300] of reality necessarily.
[32:10.300 -> 32:13.980] And yeah, so you just build that through awareness through hindsight initially.
[32:13.980 -> 32:18.500] So you're looking back on your week, and then eventually you can notice in the moment, whoa,
[32:18.500 -> 32:22.980] I'm really catastrophizing here, you know, so and then you can, the process then is just
[32:22.980 -> 32:25.860] seeing it for what it is, you don't have to stop it arriving.
[32:25.860 -> 32:27.040] So I'll catastrophize all the time.
[32:27.040 -> 32:30.400] So I have a lifelong fear of heights, for example.
[32:30.400 -> 32:34.280] And because I live in the countryside and the highest building has about three floors,
[32:34.280 -> 32:36.800] I don't address it all the time.
[32:36.800 -> 32:40.760] And so whenever we go on holiday or something, and we're up, you know, some high tourist
[32:40.760 -> 32:49.000] attraction, it always comes back, you know, I feel that pounding heart, and mind starts telling me I'm about to die and all of those things and so I don't
[32:49.000 -> 32:53.480] stop it arriving, I just notice I'm catastrophizing. My mind has taken me to
[32:53.480 -> 32:57.480] the worst-case horror story in my mind and is playing out for me like a movie
[32:57.480 -> 33:01.920] and then re-triggering my anxiety and as soon as I notice it's a bias and I label
[33:01.920 -> 33:07.440] it, I give it less power.
[33:11.520 -> 33:16.000] We'll leave our conversation with Dr Julie there, but if you want the full version, it's twice as long. You can hear it right now on the High Performance app. Just download the app
[33:16.000 -> 33:25.720] from the App Store and use your unique access code H P A P P for Access. And remember, high performance looks different for everyone,
[33:25.720 -> 33:27.720] so chase your own version.
[33:27.720 -> 33:57.960] And thanks for listening. These days, every new potential hire can feel like a high-stakes wager for your small business.
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