Reflections on the Rugby World Cup | Clive Woodward, Dan Carter, Siya Kolisi, Eddie Jones, Sam Burgess, Danny Cipriani and Eddie Jones

To mark the start of the Rugby World Cup, Jake and Damian reflect on the conversations they have had with some of the most influential people in the game. We have been lucky enough to go into the training grounds, stadiums and dressing rooms and to hear the innermost thoughts of the key players past and present.

Hear from Sir Clive Woodward on the power of the individual in a great team. A former teammate of the legendary All Blacks, Dan Carter shares the details of the team meeting in which they decide they were going to be the worlds most dominant team. Jake and Damian consider the honest and open conversation they had with Siya Kolisi, who described what winning the world cup meant for all of South Africsa. As well as the above, we hear from some of the greatest players of the game, including Sam Burgess, Danny Cipriani and Eddie Jones.

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# Summary: Understanding the Essence of High Performance in Rugby through Elite Conversations

**Introduction:**

In anticipation of the Rugby World Cup, Jake and Damian reflect on their insightful conversations with influential figures in the sport. They emphasize the significance of fostering a culture that nurtures individual growth while emphasizing teamwork and shared purpose.

**Key Themes Explored:**

1. **The Power of Individual Excellence Within a Strong Team:**

- Sir Clive Woodward stresses the importance of developing exceptional individual players who contribute to the collective strength of the team.
- Dan Carter highlights the All Blacks' focus on individual excellence and the collective responsibility to avoid complacency.

2. **Creating a Culture of Team Unity and Shared Purpose:**

- Siya Kolisi embodies empathetic leadership and the ability to unite a team around a common goal, transcending individual aspirations.
- The Springboks' success in 2019 stemmed from their focus on representing the entire nation and inspiring future generations.

3. **The Role of Soft Skills in Achieving Success:**

- Danny Cipriani and Sam Burgess share their experiences of struggling in environments lacking emotional support and belonging.
- The significance of fostering a culture that values vulnerability, authenticity, and open communication is emphasized.

4. **Eddie Jones's Leadership Style and Focus on Victory:**

- Eddie Jones emphasizes the need for focus, exacting standards, and a relentless pursuit of victory.
- His adaptability and ability to extract the unique strengths of different rugby cultures are highlighted.

**Conclusion:**

The podcast emphasizes the importance of building a culture that fosters individual excellence, team unity, and a sense of belonging. It underscores the significance of soft skills, exacting standards, and unwavering focus in achieving high performance in rugby and beyond.

# Rugby World Cup: Reflections and Insights from Influential Figures in the Game

As the Rugby World Cup commences, Jake and Damian reflect on their enlightening conversations with some of the most influential figures in the realm of rugby. They have had the privilege of entering training grounds, stadiums, and dressing rooms, gaining access to the innermost thoughts of prominent past and present players.

**The Power of the Individual in a Great Team**

Sir Clive Woodward, a legendary figure in rugby, emphasizes the significance of individual brilliance within a cohesive team. He asserts that while teamwork is crucial, it is the exceptional contributions of individuals that often determine a team's success.

**Team Meeting: Deciding to be the World's Most Dominant Team**

Dan Carter, a former All Blacks player, shares the details of a pivotal team meeting where the team resolved to become the world's most dominant force in rugby. This meeting marked a turning point in their mindset and fueled their drive to achieve greatness.

**Siya Kolisi's Candid Conversation on Winning the World Cup**

Jake and Damian recall their candid conversation with Siya Kolisi, the South African captain who led his team to victory in the 2019 Rugby World Cup. Kolisi's heartfelt account of what this triumph meant for South Africa as a nation resonated deeply with the hosts.

**Insights from Other Rugby Legends**

The podcast also features perspectives from other rugby luminaries, including Sam Burgess, Danny Cipriani, and Eddie Jones. These individuals offer their unique insights into the game, sharing their experiences, challenges, and triumphs.

**Overall Message and Takeaway**

The overall message of the podcast is that rugby is more than just a sport; it is a powerful force that can unite people, inspire nations, and create lasting memories. The conversations with these influential figures provide valuable insights into the intricacies of the game, the mindset of elite athletes, and the impact of rugby on a global scale.

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[02:08.520 -> 02:16.760] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance with Jay Comfrey and Professor Damien Hughes
[02:16.760 -> 02:22.200] and this is us looking ahead to the Rugby World Cup which starts today in France. And
[02:22.200 -> 02:25.480] we, you know, we both feel really lucky, right, to be involved in high performance Damien.
[02:25.480 -> 02:32.680] I think one of the things that makes us feel like that the most is that we see and hear things from elite people in sport
[02:32.680 -> 02:38.880] that you just normally would never get access to and actually in the rugby world that rings true, doesn't it?
[02:38.880 -> 02:41.480] We've had some unreal conversations the last few years.
[02:41.480 -> 02:45.160] Yeah, we've had a real privilege to be able to
[02:43.360 -> 02:48.280] go into the training grounds, to be able
[02:45.160 -> 02:50.080] to have access to the dressing rooms and to
[02:48.280 -> 02:51.680] hear the innermost thoughts of some of
[02:50.080 -> 02:53.480] the greatest people that have ever been
[02:51.680 -> 02:55.480] involved in the sport and to understand
[02:53.480 -> 02:57.640] a little bit about not just what they
[02:55.480 -> 02:59.320] did but why and how they went about
[02:57.640 -> 03:01.520] doing it. It's been a real privilege.
[02:59.320 -> 03:02.920] And you might love this podcast because
[03:01.520 -> 03:05.480] you like hearing from actors or
[03:02.920 -> 03:06.600] comedians or
[03:03.720 -> 03:08.040] entrepreneurs or megastars in the world
[03:06.600 -> 03:09.600] of entertainment right? So don't
[03:08.040 -> 03:11.240] immediately think a rugby episode I'm
[03:09.600 -> 03:13.200] gonna switch off because the truth is
[03:11.240 -> 03:15.080] we're about to play a few clips from some
[03:13.200 -> 03:16.800] of the greatest names who've had some of
[03:15.080 -> 03:19.760] the most fascinating insights to offer
[03:16.800 -> 03:22.080] us and none of it actually is about
[03:19.760 -> 03:24.440] rugby all of it is about life and
[03:22.080 -> 03:26.040] culture and human beings and connection.
[03:24.440 -> 03:26.000] Yeah there's a great example of it is about life and culture and human beings and connection. Yeah
[03:24.680 -> 03:28.200] there's a great example of it when we
[03:26.000 -> 03:30.320] interviewed Rob Baxter, the Exeter
[03:28.200 -> 03:32.400] Chiefs head coach, when he spoke around
[03:30.320 -> 03:34.560] that question that has defined his
[03:32.400 -> 03:37.760] coaching career of, would I be happy for
[03:34.560 -> 03:39.320] my son to be coached by me? In his
[03:37.760 -> 03:41.560] first few years he said, well the answer
[03:39.320 -> 03:44.080] is no and that forced him to do some
[03:41.560 -> 03:45.760] serious self-reflection and decide what
[03:44.080 -> 03:48.120] he could do better to create an environment where people can thrive and that's
[03:48.120 -> 03:51.560] essentially what the conversations that we've had with some of these great names
[03:51.560 -> 03:55.880] has been about. How do you create a culture and an environment where
[03:55.880 -> 03:59.960] everybody can act to their own potential. And if we're talking about building a
[03:59.960 -> 04:03.920] culture we have to start with a man who built the culture at England rugby that
[04:03.920 -> 04:06.320] delivered the rugby World Cup in
[04:07.040 -> 04:11.360] 2003 one of the most popular episodes we've ever brought you because this man talks about something called
[04:12.040 -> 04:15.600] Teamship and the not I mean I still get daily people send me messages
[04:16.280 -> 04:20.400] About what Sir Clive Woodward had to say to us, so we'll talk about him in a moment
[04:20.400 -> 04:25.960] But first this is what was said when Sir Clive Woodward joined us on high performance.
[04:25.960 -> 04:31.980] The way I basically did it was I had this saying that great teams made great individuals.
[04:31.980 -> 04:35.080] I mean, I'll never underscore the importance of teamwork and working together as a team
[04:35.080 -> 04:39.160] of people, but I think if there's a secret to teamwork, if you get every individual working
[04:39.160 -> 04:43.080] at his or her optimum level and becoming world class, the team stuff becomes a lot easier
[04:43.080 -> 04:44.080] to do.
[04:44.080 -> 04:47.280] And I've always had this vision of sort of, and it happened to me, being in charge of a team,
[04:47.280 -> 04:50.560] you're looking around the room and you've got half the team would be in any team in
[04:50.560 -> 04:52.280] the world, they're the best in the world.
[04:52.280 -> 04:55.600] So the individual has got to take responsibility for their individual training.
[04:55.600 -> 04:59.240] And this is what I got across to the players, that if we want to be successful, yes, you've
[04:59.240 -> 05:03.400] got to be this individual, you've got to become the best in the world, better than any other
[05:03.400 -> 05:06.600] prop forward, second row, fly half in the world, but also you've got to become the best in the world, better than any other prop forward, second row, fly half in the world.
[05:06.600 -> 05:08.520] But also you've got to contribute to the team.
[05:08.520 -> 05:10.440] If you're not, we're not going to win.
[05:10.440 -> 05:12.060] I used to like bringing players here.
[05:12.060 -> 05:16.280] Every single player would come to a house, just to sit down one-on-one, meet Jane, meet
[05:16.280 -> 05:18.160] the kids and get across to them.
[05:18.160 -> 05:22.440] This is a once in a lifetime opportunity here, but I need it from you as well as me.
[05:22.440 -> 05:27.160] You're going to get from buckets from me and the coaching team, to be really successful, it's gonna be a two-way thing
[05:27.160 -> 05:34.300] And I think that's what we did and I you know, I can't praise that team high enough hugely talented players
[05:34.300 -> 05:40.380] But the real secret was led by Johnston led by D'Aleo, you know, they got this they did contribute
[05:40.380 -> 05:44.860] They weren't yes-men. They did question me the other coaches in a real real positive way and
[05:45.000 -> 05:47.600] That's the way you can develop a team of people.
[05:47.600 -> 05:48.600] But you've got to do it one by one.
[05:48.600 -> 05:52.200] You've got to persuade every individual that I need you to be part of this.
[05:52.200 -> 05:56.200] Or if you're not, I'd question you being in this team.
[05:58.000 -> 06:00.200] Yeah, that phrase that he spoke about there,
[06:00.200 -> 06:02.800] that great teams are made up of great individuals,
[06:02.800 -> 06:06.480] is just such a
[06:03.760 -> 06:08.800] powerful insight that we sometimes think
[06:06.480 -> 06:10.560] that we have to sort of fuse ourselves to
[06:08.800 -> 06:12.840] be part of a greater collective, that we
[06:10.560 -> 06:14.640] have to dilute the person that we are
[06:12.840 -> 06:16.920] and our own characteristics that make us
[06:14.640 -> 06:18.680] unique. And what Clive offered us was the
[06:16.920 -> 06:21.840] idea that actually you embrace people
[06:18.680 -> 06:23.320] where they are on their terms and
[06:21.840 -> 06:25.640] then you get them to somehow
[06:23.320 -> 06:29.560] understand how they can contribute to the wider picture and I think that's really important that over
[06:29.560 -> 06:32.360] the next six weeks as we watch the World Cup we're going to see some great
[06:32.360 -> 06:36.840] individual talents but it reminds me of that great quote that a great player is
[06:36.840 -> 06:42.080] only somebody that makes the team better and I think that's what Clive was really
[06:42.080 -> 06:45.320] successful at doing in his seven years when he was the England
[06:45.320 -> 06:46.320] head coach.
[06:46.320 -> 06:51.260] We've also spoken to lots of players on high performance. One of the greatest rugby players
[06:51.260 -> 06:55.640] of all time and for you listening to this in New Zealand, as soon as I say Dan Carter,
[06:55.640 -> 06:59.880] I'm sure you have a big smile across your face and actually it relates to this point
[06:59.880 -> 07:04.280] because sometimes you meet people and they're disappointing, right? When Dan Carter came
[07:04.280 -> 07:06.960] on high performance and we've spoken to him twice,
[07:06.960 -> 07:09.680] he is the epitome of a team player.
[07:09.680 -> 07:12.560] I mean, I will never forget after we interviewed him on stage in London,
[07:12.560 -> 07:15.840] sitting around, having a beer afterwards, he was just one of the team,
[07:15.840 -> 07:18.120] he was cracking a few jokes, telling a few stories,
[07:18.120 -> 07:20.640] he didn't want to rush off and disappear with his entourage,
[07:20.640 -> 07:23.400] he didn't turn up with an entourage, it was him on his own.
[07:23.400 -> 07:25.280] He left backstage and went into the auditorium, and he met people up with an entourage, it was him on his own. He left backstage and
[07:25.280 -> 07:29.700] went into the auditorium and he met people that wanted an autograph or a signed picture.
[07:29.700 -> 07:33.560] And I think you can look at them as little things or you can see that actually those
[07:33.560 -> 07:37.720] are things he learned throughout his rugby career because you don't get his success by
[07:37.720 -> 07:38.720] being an individual.
[07:38.720 -> 07:43.160] RL Yeah, he used that great phrase Jake didn't he, where he said about hot-dogging, the idea
[07:43.160 -> 07:48.160] of getting high on your own supply or thinking that you're better than what you really are, how that
[07:48.160 -> 07:52.000] in the culture at the All Blacks they'd quickly bring people back down to earth
[07:52.000 -> 07:56.920] and make them, remind them that this is a team sport and Dan was a great example
[07:56.920 -> 08:01.680] of when we when we did the event in Hackney, he was a team player, he wanted
[08:01.680 -> 08:05.040] us all to walk away feeling that we'd enjoyed success.
[08:05.400 -> 08:09.240] And if we listen to this clip of him talking about how no team had ever done
[08:09.240 -> 08:11.120] two back-to-back World Cup victories.
[08:11.640 -> 08:17.920] So post 2011, when they won it for the first time in 20 odd years, it took us
[08:18.000 -> 08:21.320] into that team meeting where they decided how they were going to become
[08:21.320 -> 08:22.800] the world's most dominant team.
[08:25.000 -> 08:28.000] For us, we had an incredible vision in 2011,
[08:28.000 -> 08:30.000] where we just won the World Cup
[08:30.000 -> 08:34.000] and we wanted to be the most dominant team in the history of world rugby.
[08:34.000 -> 08:37.000] So you've got a clear vision that the team's working towards.
[08:37.000 -> 08:40.000] It's not actually a vision that you'll reach one day,
[08:40.000 -> 08:43.000] something you'll strive towards, you'll walk towards,
[08:43.000 -> 09:25.840] but you never actually put the flag and the ground and go, yeah, we're the most dominant team in the history of world rugby. Te reo te reo, te reo te reo, te reo te reo, te reo te reo, te reo te reo, te koutou koutou, kia koutou koutou, kia koutou koutou,ni koutou. Nau, unangomaihiaan maini koutou.
[09:25.840 -> 09:25.880] Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou.
[09:25.880 -> 09:47.200] Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangomaihiaan maini koutou. Eto, unangom environment where you can stand up and have those really difficult conversations.
[09:47.200 -> 09:50.560] And you're not doing it because it's a personal attack.
[09:50.560 -> 09:52.520] You're doing it for the better of the team.
[09:52.800 -> 10:00.440] So going back to your team vision, these conversations are happening because you care so much about the team.
[10:00.720 -> 10:05.600] OK, so I'm having this conversation with you because what's best for the team?
[10:06.240 -> 10:13.120] So all your decision making needs to be around that. And we had an environment where if guys
[10:13.120 -> 10:17.600] were, we used to call it hot-dogging, if they were hot-dogging a little bit too much.
[10:19.920 -> 10:25.600] And it was actually something really light-hearted You know, it was someone's hot dogging on social media,
[10:25.600 -> 10:27.400] you know, you'd kind of put it up
[10:27.400 -> 10:29.600] and you know, before your team meetings
[10:29.600 -> 10:33.360] and okay, look, he's doing a shirtless photo.
[10:33.360 -> 10:35.520] And even though that's fun and humorous
[10:35.520 -> 10:36.400] and guys would laugh
[10:36.400 -> 10:38.160] and you're taking the mickey out of each other,
[10:38.160 -> 10:39.200] it was an underlining fact.
[10:39.200 -> 10:41.680] It was like, come on, let's team first.
[10:41.680 -> 10:50.560] So there was, there's a real, you know, a real thing about making sure that, you know, the team team first. So there's a real thing about making sure that the team comes first. I know
[10:50.560 -> 10:54.640] that's not an example of someone being a dickie, that's actually just a light-hearted way of
[10:54.640 -> 10:58.520] saying, hey, come on, let's put the team first.
[10:58.520 -> 11:03.520] So that's Dan Carter sharing with us what the All Blacks did to win back-to-back Rugby
[11:03.520 -> 11:09.160] World Cups. And very best of luck to all of our listeners in New Zealand over the next few weeks but
[11:09.160 -> 11:12.320] what about South Africa what about the South Africa captain what about the
[11:12.320 -> 11:17.840] first black springbok captain to lift the rugby world cup see a Khaleesi also
[11:17.840 -> 11:21.000] join us on high performance and the reason why I think this is really great
[11:21.000 -> 11:26.660] after hearing from Dan Carter is that rugby and all sports requires a team
[11:26.660 -> 11:31.340] effort but it requires a team effort where you need cultural architects, you need people
[11:31.340 -> 11:35.460] who are going to drive the culture, you need followers and you need leaders. You can't
[11:35.460 -> 11:42.300] all be leaders and Sio Koulissi was the epitome of a leader because he's the epitome of an
[11:42.300 -> 11:45.440] empathetic human being. You know, what did someone say to you before we met him?
[11:45.440 -> 11:47.640] He gives the best hugs of anyone I know.
[11:47.640 -> 11:49.800] And actually I think that that quote
[11:49.800 -> 11:51.800] sums up my feelings about Sio Kulisi.
[11:51.800 -> 11:52.920] We've recorded this remotely
[11:52.920 -> 11:54.760] and that's why the audio isn't as good as we would like.
[11:54.760 -> 11:55.600] But do you know what?
[11:55.600 -> 11:57.960] I felt like I'd had a hug from Sio Kulisi
[11:57.960 -> 12:00.000] despite the fact that he was in South Africa
[12:00.000 -> 12:01.600] and we were in the UK.
[12:01.600 -> 12:03.280] Yeah, I remember coming off that call
[12:03.280 -> 12:04.800] and saying to my wife that,
[12:04.800 -> 12:05.880] I feel I've just met a man
[12:05.880 -> 12:08.040] that's playing a different game than the rest of us.
[12:08.040 -> 12:11.120] This is a man that's gonna go on and influence lives
[12:11.120 -> 12:14.280] and generations and communities long beyond
[12:14.280 -> 12:15.440] his rugby playing career,
[12:15.440 -> 12:18.200] because he's a man that just embodies decency,
[12:18.200 -> 12:20.360] integrity, and humility.
[12:20.360 -> 12:22.320] And Dave were the cornerstones
[12:22.320 -> 12:25.000] of the Spingboks success back in 2019.
[12:25.000 -> 12:46.280] Let's listen to him talk about representing all of South Africa. are actually privileged because we are playing, what we produce on that field can put a smile
[12:46.280 -> 12:49.720] on someone's face. It can change the whole country's mood. If you think you're under
[12:49.720 -> 12:56.200] pressure now, think about where you come from, how you didn't have food. It's only 80 minutes.
[12:56.200 -> 13:01.200] You can change the narrative for the next kid who is in the same situation as you, but
[13:01.200 -> 13:06.560] by you winning this, you can get all these people working with you and you can go back and change
[13:06.720 -> 13:14.560] the narrative for the next couple of kids. So when he started speaking like that in that final game, it became personal
[13:14.680 -> 13:19.480] because for me personally, for what I was playing for and then for us as a team, we were playing for South Africa,
[13:19.480 -> 13:23.420] it wasn't about us anymore. It was about the country itself, the whole mood of the country,
[13:23.420 -> 13:27.360] what could this win do for us? And when he was finished talking,
[13:27.360 -> 13:31.840] I wasn't even thinking about losing then. To me, it was game over.
[13:33.680 -> 13:39.040] Now, you can argue that it's a bit twee, right? Because there will be people who are listening
[13:39.040 -> 13:43.280] to this, some of whom are elite sports people, some of whom want to be, some of whom maybe once
[13:43.280 -> 13:47.800] were. And a lot of them will think, no, no, I did that for myself. I loved winning, I loved being
[13:47.800 -> 13:53.000] successful, I loved the trappings of success. But there is a real truth to that, isn't there?
[13:53.000 -> 13:57.360] That that togetherness is what can allow you to have your individual success and we've
[13:57.360 -> 14:01.960] spoken to players who never felt that togetherness, they never felt that they were part of something
[14:01.960 -> 14:08.840] special and the truth is that they didn't achieve what they wanted to in their national team's jersey and they will be living now with a
[14:09.300 -> 14:15.700] regret of of those times. Yeah, when I'm lucky enough to work with teams, one of the simple exercises
[14:15.700 -> 14:20.000] I often get them to do is I divide it up into hard versus soft skills
[14:20.000 -> 14:25.840] so if we class hard skills as how fast you can run, how heavy the weights you can lift are, the speed of
[14:26.400 -> 14:33.120] your getting to the gain line and back, they're the hard stuff. The soft stuff is confidence, communication,
[14:33.800 -> 14:38.880] cohesion as a team unit. And I asked them to tell me, and the best teams have been part of, what's the
[14:39.280 -> 14:45.680] proportionality? And I've yet to meet a successful team that doesn't tell me about 30% of the success is the hard stuff
[14:45.880 -> 14:53.260] But 70% is the softer skills the ability to feel that you connect that you belong good that you're part of a wider group
[14:53.880 -> 14:59.760] and I think the next two interviews we're going to listen to both the brilliant Danny Cipriani and
[15:00.000 -> 15:03.400] Sam Burgess that came in from rugby league to play for England of the Union
[15:03.640 -> 15:07.920] They told us really powerfully how when those softer skills are not taken care
[15:07.920 -> 15:13.240] of effectively, the toxic impact it can have on both the individual and on the
[15:13.240 -> 15:19.320] wider culture. You look at that England Rugby Union squad, the coaching staff
[15:19.320 -> 15:26.800] especially, Stuart Lancaster after the World Cup he got sacked or wherever he stood down.
[15:26.800 -> 15:27.960] He's gone on to Leinster,
[15:27.960 -> 15:30.780] he's been the Leinster head coach for six years.
[15:30.780 -> 15:32.600] The last four years have been the most dominant team
[15:32.600 -> 15:34.280] in the whole of Europe.
[15:34.280 -> 15:37.240] So it's not like he wasn't a great coach.
[15:37.240 -> 15:39.800] Andy Farrell, who was the assistant coach,
[15:39.800 -> 15:41.800] he is now head coach of Ireland.
[15:41.800 -> 15:44.360] They're currently number one in the world.
[15:44.360 -> 15:47.600] Graham Rowntree, he's at Munster
[15:47.600 -> 15:50.800] and they've improved outside in the last four years
[15:50.800 -> 15:52.060] since he's been there.
[15:52.060 -> 15:54.440] And Mike Catt is off being,
[15:54.440 -> 15:58.120] that was our coaching staff, the accomplished coaches.
[15:58.120 -> 16:00.280] I've gone on into the next phase of their careers
[16:00.280 -> 16:01.840] and gone on to be ultra successful.
[16:01.840 -> 16:05.560] Not just won a few games over here and there,
[16:05.560 -> 16:08.400] number one national team in the world at the moment,
[16:08.400 -> 16:10.840] Lenster, number one team in Europe,
[16:10.840 -> 16:13.560] Graham Rountree's taken Munster to a different place
[16:13.560 -> 16:15.640] and Mike Katz been successful where he's been.
[16:15.640 -> 16:18.560] It's like, so you had accomplished people
[16:18.560 -> 16:23.040] in leadership roles, but I just don't think
[16:24.320 -> 16:25.000] the players are willing to pay the price
[16:26.480 -> 16:27.400] to be successful.
[16:27.400 -> 16:29.160] And that's the, that's the one I can sit here
[16:29.160 -> 16:29.980] and say that now.
[16:29.980 -> 16:33.240] And if players from that environment had the courage
[16:33.240 -> 16:35.020] and the honesty to come out and say it,
[16:35.020 -> 16:36.820] then I think you'd hear it from a few more people.
[16:36.820 -> 16:40.120] But, you know, I think a lot of them don't like
[16:40.120 -> 16:42.360] to be honest with it because it was a failed year
[16:42.360 -> 16:44.680] and it was easy for them to point a finger
[16:44.680 -> 16:47.520] at a few different things throughout the year.
[16:47.520 -> 16:51.560] But I have, from that campaign,
[16:51.560 -> 16:56.560] there's not one bit of regret for what I gave to my country,
[16:57.160 -> 17:00.560] to the team in those, of course I made mistakes
[17:00.560 -> 17:02.000] as new to the game,
[17:02.000 -> 17:04.960] but someone sent me a funny stat the other day
[17:06.080 -> 17:09.240] of when whilst playing for England Rugby Union,
[17:10.960 -> 17:12.440] we were never behind on the scoreboard
[17:12.440 -> 17:13.640] whilst I was on the field.
[17:13.640 -> 17:17.560] Never once, except we played against Australia
[17:17.560 -> 17:18.480] at Twickenham.
[17:18.480 -> 17:21.240] I was on the bench, they brought me on with 15 minutes to go
[17:21.240 -> 17:22.320] and we were losing.
[17:22.320 -> 17:25.120] That's the only time I was ever behind on the scoreboard.
[17:27.480 -> 17:31.480] I feel as a culture, English culture,
[17:31.480 -> 17:34.960] I feel as a sporting country,
[17:36.640 -> 17:38.060] I believe we're behind the eight ball.
[17:38.060 -> 17:39.160] I believe we're behind it.
[17:39.160 -> 17:42.320] We don't, the way we speak about each other
[17:42.320 -> 17:46.480] in the media and so on, as I mentioned, I don't think it allows us
[17:46.480 -> 17:48.320] to fully get into our authentic selves
[17:48.320 -> 17:50.040] because we're all trying to be a type of way
[17:50.040 -> 17:52.960] because we don't want people to know the truth
[17:52.960 -> 17:54.440] because the truth is terrible.
[17:54.440 -> 17:55.880] No, it's not.
[17:55.880 -> 17:57.320] Everyone goes through the same things.
[17:57.320 -> 17:58.920] It's just a different spotlight.
[17:58.920 -> 18:00.640] It's a different version.
[18:00.640 -> 18:02.640] You know, everyone's got something you can learn
[18:02.640 -> 18:03.480] from everyone.
[18:03.480 -> 18:04.520] Everyone can be relatable.
[18:04.520 -> 18:06.860] Everyone has those emotions.
[18:06.860 -> 18:11.860] And, you know, I hope that that's something
[18:14.000 -> 18:15.520] that can get changed and it can do.
[18:15.520 -> 18:17.040] And I see somewhere like America,
[18:17.040 -> 18:19.840] where I feel their athletes get to own their own narrative
[18:19.840 -> 18:21.680] and they get to be more authentic.
[18:21.680 -> 18:24.200] And you see the levels of performance and the genius
[18:24.200 -> 18:28.760] and the talent, the consistency, but also they have a lot of fun off the field and they make
[18:28.760 -> 18:33.880] changes and they go to communities and they build and they create massive, you know, better
[18:33.880 -> 18:40.440] environments for people that they were like when they were younger and so on and so on.
[18:40.440 -> 18:48.100] And I believe we miss a huge disconnect or a potential or an opportunity in this country to do so because we have this stiff upper lip
[18:48.100 -> 18:53.060] mentality, this English culture, which has got so many positives to it,
[18:53.560 -> 18:55.500] you know, so many.
[18:56.240 -> 19:00.180] But just relaxing and being vulnerable and being truthful, why is that seen as
[19:00.180 -> 19:03.660] such an outrageous thing to do in this country?
[19:10.720 -> 19:14.080] So there you go. That was first of all Sam Sam Burgess followed by Danny Cipriani on culture and environment and the struggles that both of them faced in their careers and I think
[19:14.080 -> 19:19.120] that this is so relevant you know let's take Danny Cipriani and Johnny Wilkinson as two
[19:19.120 -> 19:23.360] great examples both have delivered amazing podcasts on high performance. What's Johnny
[19:23.360 -> 19:29.540] Wilkinson's podcast called? I Am. What's Danny Cipriani's new book called? Who Am I? The
[19:29.540 -> 19:33.480] truth is that even in these elite sports teams, in every single environment, in
[19:33.480 -> 19:37.460] every business, of every person listening to this, we understand that we're there
[19:37.460 -> 19:42.080] to take the team in a certain direction, but finding who we are and what we are
[19:42.080 -> 19:45.700] and what we represent in that team is the secret sauce.
[19:45.700 -> 19:48.540] We talk about getting to players hearts, not players heads, don't we?
[19:48.540 -> 19:54.760] Yeah. Well, do you remember when Danny spoke to us in that brilliant interview that he gave us and he said that a lot of his,
[19:54.880 -> 20:02.020] what people described as dysfunctional behaviours, like sleeping with lots of different women, or going out in nightclubs, or
[20:02.420 -> 20:05.240] behaving sometimes erratically, was all just his
[20:05.240 -> 20:06.400] desire to belong.
[20:06.400 -> 20:10.920] And he said that all he wanted was a coach to tell him that I cared about the
[20:10.920 -> 20:13.920] person, not the player, to see him for who he was.
[20:14.440 -> 20:18.640] And I think when that isn't there, when we don't feel that sense of belonging, we
[20:18.640 -> 20:24.920] try and find it in lots of different ways that can often undermine the culture and
[20:24.920 -> 20:25.540] the team and the team and
[20:25.540 -> 20:31.380] the ethos. So I think the criticality of this is going to be important. I've no
[20:31.380 -> 20:36.000] doubt that whoever stands on the podium at the World Cup final hoisting that
[20:36.000 -> 20:40.180] trophy aloft is going to be the team where the strength of the relationships
[20:40.180 -> 20:44.600] are stronger than anybody else's. And one man who would love to be holding the
[20:44.600 -> 20:46.000] World Cup aloft in a few weeks time is Eddie Jones, former England coach, he's now are stronger than anybody else's. And one man who would love to be holding the
[20:44.640 -> 20:47.920] World Cup aloft in a few weeks time is
[20:46.000 -> 20:50.280] Eddie Jones, former England coach, he's
[20:47.920 -> 20:52.680] now leading Australia. Shout out to all
[20:50.280 -> 20:54.920] our Aussie listeners as well. And Eddie,
[20:52.680 -> 20:57.120] Eddie's a very interesting character isn't
[20:54.920 -> 20:58.520] he? You know, we can talk about the soft
[20:57.120 -> 20:59.800] skills, we can talk about building
[20:58.520 -> 21:02.160] culture, we can talk about finding your
[20:59.800 -> 21:04.200] place in a team. The truth is elite
[21:02.160 -> 21:06.640] sport is brutal. The truth is that finding
[21:04.200 -> 21:07.040] success is difficult. The truth is elite sport is brutal. The truth is that finding success
[21:04.800 -> 21:08.640] is difficult. The truth is that you can't
[21:07.040 -> 21:12.080] carry passengers and the truth is you
[21:08.640 -> 21:15.040] have to fit into the culture
[21:12.080 -> 21:16.800] that coach decides to employ. And I have
[21:15.040 -> 21:18.880] to say I got a feeling from Eddie Jones
[21:16.800 -> 21:20.320] that it is his way or the highway when
[21:18.880 -> 21:22.320] he joined us on high performance.
[21:20.320 -> 21:23.680] Yeah I agree. I think one of the things
[21:22.320 -> 21:24.960] he did when he first came in that he
[21:23.680 -> 21:27.280] told us when he came into English
[21:24.960 -> 21:25.000] Rugby was he tried to work out what Yeah, I agree. I think one of the things he did when he first came in that he told us when he came into English rugby
[21:25.000 -> 21:31.900] was he tried to work out what makes you special and unique. Let's not try and be a hybrid version of the All Blacks.
[21:31.900 -> 21:37.900] Let's look at what makes us unique and it was about being hard-nosed and belligerent and difficult to beat.
[21:37.900 -> 21:42.900] And I think he built on those blocks the culture of his first England team.
[21:42.900 -> 21:47.260] Some people might argue that he lost sight of that or maybe got a little bit
[21:47.260 -> 21:50.900] confused, but I think this is a man that's gone into lots of different rugby
[21:50.900 -> 21:55.840] cultures, whether it was with Australia, a first time around and again now, when
[21:55.840 -> 22:01.560] he went into the South African rugby team to support Jake White in 2007.
[22:01.920 -> 22:05.400] This is a man that's been able to adapt his style accordingly.
[22:05.760 -> 22:10.080] And I think your point is right, that he's a man though, that never loses
[22:10.080 -> 22:13.200] sight of the fact that this is about victory, this is about winning.
[22:13.600 -> 22:17.480] I think the conversation where he told us that sometimes that's not for
[22:17.480 -> 22:19.920] everybody is a really important reminder.
[22:21.720 -> 22:23.380] Well, I think you have to have focus.
[22:23.380 -> 22:27.040] I think focus is a big thing. I don't think the number of hours or
[22:27.680 -> 22:31.000] All the time or the volume of work is the important thing
[22:31.000 -> 22:33.400] I think it's the focus and yeah again
[22:33.400 -> 22:40.320] I one of the books I've read and I've spoken to this guy's that Cal Newport who's written deep work and just your ability to
[22:40.720 -> 22:42.720] To work out when you're the most productive
[22:43.040 -> 22:43.540] Yeah
[22:43.540 -> 22:47.400] And and make sure you set that time to do the challenge for people in the modern world
[22:47.400 -> 22:50.720] It is media and constant this era of information
[22:51.080 -> 22:56.120] And to do the most difficult work when you're at your best and then when are you at your best?
[22:57.160 -> 22:59.160] Either early in the morning or late at night
[22:59.160 -> 23:03.880] So, how do you cut through all of the shit at that time of day to just focus?
[23:03.880 -> 23:09.880] I usually go in about 5 a.m. And 5 a. 5am and 5am to 6am is usually my most productive time but then after
[23:09.880 -> 23:14.960] that I train where I usually get some good thoughts where I'm not even thinking but I
[23:14.960 -> 23:19.000] usually get a couple of good thoughts for the day and then I'll go back to the office.
[23:19.000 -> 23:23.960] So generally from 5 to about 8 is my best time and the rest of the day I don't try to
[23:23.960 -> 23:25.520] do anything serious
[23:25.520 -> 23:27.880] apart from just work with the players.
[23:27.880 -> 23:29.520] And then I'll do a little bit at night again
[23:29.520 -> 23:31.200] if I'm in the right mood.
[23:33.120 -> 23:34.960] But the truth is Damien, you've worked,
[23:34.960 -> 23:36.240] you know, with many sports teams,
[23:36.240 -> 23:37.800] we've both gone into lots of businesses
[23:37.800 -> 23:39.680] and spent time with them.
[23:39.680 -> 23:42.580] Exacting standards matter.
[23:42.580 -> 23:47.020] And it's your calling card by which you live by in business or in
[23:47.020 -> 23:51.640] sport and I think that you know Eddie Jones has exacting standards and it will be fascinating
[23:51.640 -> 23:55.360] to see what he can achieve with this Australia team because what did he say to us? He said
[23:55.360 -> 24:00.240] I'm not as intense as I used to be, I get to work at 5 a.m. now and you and me are thinking
[24:00.240 -> 24:03.640] hold on what time did he used to get to work and I think he after what happened in the
[24:03.640 -> 24:08.360] way it ended with England he will have a new fire in his belly for going and delivering that World Cup for Australia.
[24:08.360 -> 24:11.440] Yeah, I think he's the perennial outsider.
[24:11.440 -> 24:16.160] He told us this, that he was born to an Australian father, a Japanese mother.
[24:16.160 -> 24:17.760] He never quite fitted in.
[24:17.760 -> 24:23.040] And I think being the underdog, being the person that gets written off is almost in his DNA.
[24:23.040 -> 24:28.480] That's when he's at his strongest and his most belligerent and I think this tournament people are writing
[24:28.480 -> 24:31.920] off the wallabies and I think that's where you'll see Eddie at his very best.
[24:31.920 -> 24:35.960] Or whatever walk of life you as a listener to high performance live and
[24:35.960 -> 24:39.460] exist in, I hope that some of those lessons in leadership and building a
[24:39.460 -> 24:43.760] culture and creating a community and a sense of belonging are really helpful to
[24:43.760 -> 24:45.920] you. You can, if you wish,
[24:45.920 -> 24:47.560] look in the description to this podcast,
[24:47.560 -> 24:49.880] the link to each of those individual episodes are there.
[24:49.880 -> 24:51.380] We've only picked out a few examples,
[24:51.380 -> 24:54.820] but those episodes are full of amazing lessons.
[24:54.820 -> 24:57.240] And our next episode on high performance
[24:57.240 -> 24:59.520] goes even deeper into the world of elite rugby.
[24:59.520 -> 25:01.640] We are joined by Steve Hansen.
[25:01.640 -> 25:04.180] If I gave you 20 seconds to explain to the audience
[25:04.180 -> 25:06.600] what they can expect from Steve Hansen, what would you say?
[25:06.600 -> 25:13.360] Steve Hansen- Blunt, honest wisdom. It was an iron fist in a velvet glove. It was really
[25:13.360 -> 25:17.920] exacting standards but done by a man that cares deeply and I think the
[25:17.920 -> 25:20.600] listeners will hear that when they tune in.
[25:20.600 -> 25:24.200] Ricky Vey- Okay, if you would like to hear it now then you can do. All you need to do is
[25:24.200 -> 25:27.200] download the high-performance app. Just go to the App Store, download the app and you then. Okay if you would like to hear it now then you can do all you need to
[25:23.840 -> 25:29.120] do is download the high-performance app just
[25:27.200 -> 25:33.360] go to the App Store download the app and
[25:29.120 -> 25:34.960] use the code HPAPP for exclusive early
[25:33.360 -> 25:37.520] access to that conversation with Steve
[25:34.960 -> 25:39.440] Hansen and so much more only on the
[25:37.520 -> 25:41.280] high-performance app. Thanks a lot Damien.
[25:39.440 -> 25:42.560] Thanks Jake loved it and I'm looking
[25:41.280 -> 25:44.640] forward to this tournament. Who wins it
[25:42.560 -> 25:47.520] who wins it? I'm gonna go with South Africa. I am as well.