Matt Fitzpatrick: How to find your edge when you're playing to win (E225)

This conversation provides a glimpse into the mind of a golfer whose meticulous approach, dedication, and mental resilience has propelled him to the pinnacle of the sport.

Matt Fitzpatrick is a professional golfer, and won his first major championship at the 2022 U.S. Open. In this episode, Jake, Damian and Matt discuss the techniques and skills he employs in his professional and personal life that have shaped his career. Matt shares the transformation that took place in 2018 that took his career to the next level; he reveals the meticulous approach he uses to hone his craft and why being numbers obsessed is the secret to his success.

They explore his journey from amateur to professional golfer, and his shift in mindset, including the power of positive self-talk. Matt also shares the life-changing advice his caddy Billy Foster gave him just before winning the U.S Open.

In this episode they delve into how he developed his winning mindset in a sport where you lose more than you win.

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**Navigating the Mental Landscape of Golf: A Conversation with Matt Fitzpatrick**

In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, host Jake Humphrey and Professor Damian Hughes engage in a captivating conversation with professional golfer Matt Fitzpatrick, winner of the 2022 U.S. Open. Together, they delve into the intricacies of Fitzpatrick's mindset, exploring the techniques and strategies that have shaped his remarkable career.

**The Genesis of a Winning Mindset**

Fitzpatrick attributes the genesis of his winning mindset to his father, who instilled in him a competitive spirit from a young age. Growing up, Fitzpatrick and his brother were constantly encouraged to push their limits and strive for success. This early exposure to competition laid the foundation for Fitzpatrick's unwavering determination and resilience.

**The Power of Numbers and Stats**

Fitzpatrick's approach to golf is heavily influenced by his obsession with numbers and statistics. He meticulously tracks his performance, analyzing every aspect of his game to identify areas for improvement. This data-driven approach allows him to make informed decisions about his practice and technique, continuously refining his skills.

**Embracing Change and Adapting to Challenges**

Fitzpatrick emphasizes the importance of embracing change and adapting to challenges. He acknowledges that complacency can be a significant obstacle to growth and improvement. By constantly seeking new ways to enhance his game, Fitzpatrick stays ahead of the curve and maintains his competitive edge.

**The Role of Trust and Collaboration**

Fitzpatrick highlights the significance of trust and collaboration within his team. He surrounds himself with individuals who are honest, supportive, and possess expertise in their respective fields. This collaborative environment fosters open communication, enabling Fitzpatrick to receive constructive feedback and make informed decisions about his career.

**The Art of Staying Coachable**

Fitzpatrick attributes his coachability to his insatiable desire to improve. He actively seeks feedback and is always open to trying new things. However, he also recognizes the importance of maintaining a clear and focused mindset, avoiding the temptation to make impulsive changes.

**Confronting the Mental Challenges of Golf**

Fitzpatrick acknowledges the mental challenges inherent in golf, a sport where players often experience more losses than victories. He emphasizes the need to develop a strong mental game, focusing on staying calm under pressure and maintaining a positive mindset.

**The Journey from Amateur to Professional Golf**

Fitzpatrick reflects on his transition from amateur to professional golf, highlighting the significant shift in mindset required to succeed at the highest level. He discusses the financial pressures and the need to consistently perform well to maintain a spot on tour.

**Finding the Balance Between Strengths and Weaknesses**

Fitzpatrick acknowledges the importance of playing to his strengths while also addressing his weaknesses. He emphasizes the need to strike a balance, dedicating time to improving both aspects of his game.

**The Value of Learning from Others**

While Fitzpatrick prefers to rely on his own experiences and data, he recognizes the potential value of learning from others. He acknowledges that different players may have unique insights and techniques that could benefit his own game.

**The Pursuit of Continuous Improvement**

Fitzpatrick's relentless pursuit of continuous improvement is a testament to his unwavering dedication to the sport. He emphasizes the importance of setting goals, seeking feedback, and embracing change as essential elements for achieving sustained success.

Throughout the conversation, Fitzpatrick's passion for golf and his commitment to excellence shine through. His insights into the mental and technical aspects of the game provide valuable lessons for aspiring golfers and anyone seeking to achieve high performance in their chosen field.

# Summary: Matt Fitzpatrick's Path to Golfing Greatness and the Mindset of a Champion

## Introduction:
Matt Fitzpatrick, the 2022 U.S. Open Champion, offers a glimpse into the world of a golfer whose meticulous approach, dedication, and mental resilience have propelled him to the pinnacle of the sport. Alongside hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Lewis, Matt delves into the techniques, skills, and mindset that have shaped his career.

## Transformation and Meticulous Approach:
In 2018, Matt underwent a significant transformation that elevated his career. He embraced a meticulous approach, focusing on data and statistics to hone his craft. This obsession with numbers became his secret to success, giving him an edge over competitors.

## Journey from Amateur to Professional:
Matt's journey from amateur to professional golfer was marked by a shift in mindset. He adopted a positive self-talk approach, recognizing the power of inner dialogue in shaping performance. He also credits his caddy, Billy Foster, for providing life-changing advice that contributed to his U.S. Open victory.

## Winning Mindset in a Losing Sport:
Golf, a sport where losing is more frequent than winning, presents unique challenges. Matt emphasizes the importance of trust in one's abilities and the belief in finding alternative paths to victory. He highlights the significance of mental strength and resilience in overcoming setbacks and maintaining focus on the ultimate goal.

## Overcoming Self-Doubt and Negative Thoughts:
Self-doubt and negative thoughts are common hurdles in competitive sports. Matt acknowledges the presence of these thoughts but stresses the need to minimize their impact. He emphasizes the importance of staying committed to the shot, trusting in the process, and maintaining a consistent routine.

## The Role of Billy Foster:
Matt's relationship with his caddy, Billy Foster, is characterized by mutual respect and open communication. Billy's direct and honest feedback, coupled with his extensive experience working with golfing legends, has been instrumental in Matt's development.

## Embracing Instinct and Half-and-Half Approach:
While data and statistics play a crucial role in Matt's game, he acknowledges the importance of instinct and feel. He believes in a balanced approach, where calculated decisions are complemented by intuitive play. This combination allows him to adapt to various course conditions and shot requirements.

## Dealing with Pressure and Maintaining Composure:
In high-pressure situations, Matt emphasizes the significance of maintaining composure and focusing on the task at hand. He employs a consistent routine to instill clarity and minimize distractions. However, he admits to occasional struggles with self-doubt, particularly when faced with hazards like water.

## The Turning Point: Billy's Intervention:
Matt recalls a pivotal moment when Billy intervened to address his negative attitude and complaining on the golf course. Billy's candid feedback prompted Matt to make a concerted effort to improve his mindset, resulting in a remarkable run of top-ten finishes and ultimately, his U.S. Open victory.

## Learning to Move On from Mistakes:
Matt acknowledges the ongoing challenge of moving on from mistakes in golf. He recognizes the importance of self-reflection and working with a psychologist to develop strategies for managing emotions and maintaining focus. He emphasizes the need to strike a balance between striving for improvement and accepting that setbacks are part of the game.

## The Desire to Be the Best and Sustained Success:
Matt's motivation stems from his desire to be the best and achieve golfing greatness. He highlights the significance of setting long-term goals and maintaining a consistent work ethic. He draws inspiration from other successful athletes, such as Michael Jordan, and seeks to emulate their dedication and intensity in practice.

## Conclusion:
Matt Fitzpatrick's journey to the top of the golfing world is a testament to his unwavering dedication, meticulous approach, and ability to overcome mental hurdles. His insights into the mindset of a champion provide valuable lessons for athletes and individuals seeking success in any field.

# Matt Fitzpatrick: The Making of a Champion Golfer

Matt Fitzpatrick, the 2022 U.S. Open champion, offers valuable insights into his mindset, techniques, and the journey that led him to golfing success.

## A Meticulous Approach to Practice:
- Fitzpatrick emphasizes the importance of meticulous practice, treating each shot as if it were a real-life scenario.
- He engages in challenging drills, such as hitting shots from specific zones to a designated hole, to create pressure and simulate tournament conditions.
- The aim is to make practice harder than tournament play, ensuring that he is well-prepared for the intensity of competition.

## Mental Resilience and Positive Self-Talk:
- Fitzpatrick acknowledges the mental challenges of golf, where losses are more frequent than wins.
- He emphasizes the power of positive self-talk, reminding himself of his capabilities and focusing on the task at hand.
- A life-changing piece of advice from his caddy, Billy Foster, helped him develop a winning mindset: "You've got to accept that you can win."

## The Importance of Visualization:
- Fitzpatrick visualizes his shots as if watching them on a screen, creating a clear mental image of the desired outcome.
- This visualization technique helps him stay focused and execute shots with greater precision.

## Non-Negotiable Behaviors and Golden Rules for Success:
- Fitzpatrick believes in the importance of hard work, humility, and honesty as non-negotiable behaviors for himself and those around him.
- He advises young people to work hard and smart, emphasizing the value of efficiency in practice.
- His golden rule for living a high-performance life is to continuously strive for improvement, constantly seeking ways to get better.

## Key Takeaways:
- Fitzpatrick's meticulous approach to practice and his focus on creating pressure in training sessions contribute to his success on the golf course.
- His emphasis on positive self-talk and mental resilience helps him overcome the challenges of a sport where losses are common.
- Fitzpatrick's visualization technique allows him to execute shots with greater precision and confidence.
- His non-negotiable behaviors and golden rule for success provide valuable guidance for aspiring athletes and individuals seeking high performance in various fields.

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[00:57.280 -> 00:59.720] When I've played my best, I can compete with the best.
[00:59.720 -> 01:06.440] And I just have a real belief in the people I work with and a real belief in myself to find
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[01:09.440 -> 01:14.480] Like I'm not worried about playing someone who's 6'4 and hits it 340 down the middle.
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[01:18.280 -> 01:21.320] The US Open I probably wasn't really expected to win.
[01:21.320 -> 01:30.020] It was the best I've ever played, you know, there's no doubt about that. In those final moments coming down the last five, six holes when the pressure's on, you
[01:30.020 -> 01:34.820] need to be strong mentally not to kind of just wilt. And I just remember looking up
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[01:55.440 -> 02:00.240] So today we welcome to the High Performance Podcast, the golfer Matt Fitzpatrick, a guy
[02:00.240 -> 02:05.640] born in Sheffield who went on to conquer the world by winning the US Open, of course,
[02:05.640 -> 02:10.880] also recently helping Europe to win the Ryder Cup. And look, if you're not a golf fan, that's
[02:10.880 -> 02:16.000] great. I'm not huge into golf. I don't play golf. But this conversation was so interesting.
[02:16.000 -> 02:19.720] This was a conversation with a guy all about finding his limits, whether that's in his
[02:19.720 -> 02:25.120] personal life or in his sporting life, about setting targets, about dealing with pressure,
[02:25.120 -> 02:30.600] about living with intention. But right now, let's get to it and welcome the golfer, Matt
[02:30.600 -> 02:39.560] Fitzpatrick, to the High Performance Podcast.
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[05:17.120 -> 05:26.120] details. Well Matt, welcome to High
[05:23.400 -> 05:25.240] Performance. Thank you.
[05:25.240 -> 05:27.360] What is High Performance to you?
[05:27.360 -> 05:37.080] High Performance to me is competing or achieving, doing something at a very high level with
[05:37.080 -> 05:38.080] success.
[05:38.080 -> 05:41.520] I've been thinking about that for a while, to be honest, but that's what I would say.
[05:41.520 -> 05:52.620] So I'd love to know where the seeds of this kind of competitive mindset were planted. If you rewind the clock of 20-25 years, what do you think comes to
[05:52.620 -> 05:57.360] you from your childhood that maybe set you up for this? I think majority of it was my
[05:57.360 -> 06:02.340] dad to be honest. Even when we were little, you know, we were laughing that, you know,
[06:02.340 -> 06:07.760] I used to be in on goal and he just tripped me up because he was obviously twice my size so hey he just
[06:07.760 -> 06:12.300] didn't want to lose and I think growing up with my dad and obviously a younger
[06:12.300 -> 06:16.800] brother as well once we sort of got to the age that we could both play sport
[06:16.800 -> 06:20.720] and stuff you know that was the big thing I think he sort of pulled it out
[06:20.720 -> 06:27.900] of us really and we just always wanted to beat him. So what sort of messages was he giving you then Matt at that young age?
[06:27.900 -> 06:32.880] I guess like when I was sort of 9, 10, 11 I was just sort of getting into the game,
[06:32.880 -> 06:37.500] you know, playing. He wasn't like coaching me but he was, in terms of technique, but
[06:37.500 -> 06:42.300] he was kind of coaching me in what club to hit or where to aim and little things like
[06:42.300 -> 06:49.200] that. I think that once I started playing more competitions, it was more, if you want to do this, we'll
[06:49.200 -> 06:54.320] take you, we'll ferry you around, we'll do what you want to do, but it's on you to put
[06:54.320 -> 06:55.320] in the work.
[06:55.320 -> 07:00.520] It was never super pushy, you've got to go, you need to stay there for two hours and do
[07:00.520 -> 07:05.280] this and both my parents, it was just just like if you want to do it like
[07:05.280 -> 07:09.320] you know you've got to put the work and effort into it and I think there was you
[07:09.320 -> 07:14.340] know from for me there was always that that I did I did want to do that and at
[07:14.340 -> 07:18.320] the same time I wanted to kind of I just wanted to win. What age are we talking
[07:18.320 -> 07:23.120] about here then? Probably like 15 onwards I'd say that where it really sort of
[07:23.120 -> 07:25.120] started being like okay I wanted to get
[07:25.120 -> 07:30.080] into the England boys England under 16 set up and all of a sudden you start you know
[07:30.080 -> 07:33.880] my dad's like well these are the results you might probably going to need to get selected
[07:33.880 -> 07:39.520] and these are the tournaments you played I mean my dad's so like well researched in amateur
[07:39.520 -> 07:43.240] golf stuff when we were younger it was like we play you know you should play this it's
[07:43.240 -> 07:50.060] a great golf course or this is a great tournament and you know just of his own interest he's just gone
[07:50.060 -> 07:53.180] out of his way to sort of find all the information really.
[07:53.180 -> 07:58.380] There's a really interesting dynamic when we look at your background that so your caddy
[07:58.380 -> 08:02.700] Billy used that great phrase where he said you look like an altar boy but there's a real
[08:02.700 -> 08:09.580] grit about you but also there's something around you taking comfort in the numbers and the stats, so, because
[08:09.580 -> 08:13.920] they don't lie, they tell you where you are. And it sounds very much like they were the
[08:13.920 -> 08:18.520] two elements that your dad was feeding into you, make sure you know where you are, but
[08:18.520 -> 08:19.520] you've got to have that resolve.
[08:19.520 -> 08:28.760] Yeah, yeah, definitely. For me, it's probably not until, I'd probably say 2019 is where it really
[08:28.760 -> 08:33.720] took off in terms of the numbers and everything, where I really sort of got a lot deeper into
[08:33.720 -> 08:34.720] it.
[08:34.720 -> 08:35.720] So what are you now, 29?
[08:35.720 -> 08:36.720] 29, yeah.
[08:36.720 -> 08:40.760] So we're going back five years when you said, I went, so what happened then when you were
[08:40.760 -> 08:51.520] 24, 25? What was the awakening at that moment? Yeah, I think 2018 I'd not really played great. I played okay. I brought on my now trainer
[08:51.520 -> 08:57.240] Matt Roberts and he used to work in football and he was like, listen, I think you need
[08:57.240 -> 09:03.320] to change your practice, like how you do it. And this is a small area of skill acquisition
[09:03.320 -> 09:05.320] and challenges and all that sort of stuff.
[09:05.320 -> 09:07.320] And I was like, okay, fair enough.
[09:07.320 -> 09:08.320] Like, you know, what are you thinking?
[09:08.320 -> 09:11.640] So we, towards the end of the year, we tried some of these challenges that he thought of
[09:11.640 -> 09:16.720] and he, no offense, he didn't really know much about golf at that time.
[09:16.720 -> 09:18.100] And what sort of things?
[09:18.100 -> 09:25.180] We did like five distances, say a hundred and then every five yards, up until like 125.
[09:26.580 -> 09:28.420] Three balls at each distance,
[09:28.420 -> 09:31.180] and you've gotta try and hit it on the numbers, basically.
[09:31.180 -> 09:33.360] So, nothing like super crazy,
[09:33.360 -> 09:36.100] but we have a piece of technology called TrackMan,
[09:36.100 -> 09:39.740] which basically tracks that, so we just do it on the range.
[09:39.740 -> 09:42.500] And then, I noticed that I had a bit of an improvement.
[09:42.500 -> 09:43.640] It didn't stand out massively,
[09:43.640 -> 09:47.400] but I felt like that was definitely better.
[09:47.400 -> 09:52.560] But then to rewind back to 2015, it was the first year I was on tour and I wasn't very
[09:52.560 -> 09:55.800] well, not played well at the start of the season.
[09:55.800 -> 09:59.760] And all of a sudden I was just like at home and I was like, I'm just going to write out
[09:59.760 -> 10:00.760] a plan.
[10:00.760 -> 10:05.680] And I wrote out this blueprint basically of how I envisaged how I would practice, how
[10:05.680 -> 10:10.640] I would do my daily drills or exercises.
[10:10.640 -> 10:16.560] Literally everything that we talked about in 2018 was just on this piece of paper.
[10:16.560 -> 10:20.980] And it wasn't until 2019 that I actually did something with it.
[10:20.980 -> 10:30.120] So I brought someone else in, one of my coaches, Steve Robinson, who's more of like a performance guy from my side. He's a golf coach as well, but he's
[10:30.120 -> 10:35.840] purely like looks at the stats, thinks about drills and challenges that we can do to, you
[10:35.840 -> 10:40.520] know, hone in on certain skills that we need. And that's kind of where it all kicked off
[10:40.520 -> 10:47.440] 2019 onwards was then really. So yeah, I would say that was kind of the awakening to like
[10:47.440 -> 10:51.840] all of a sudden oh wow I'm missing a big part of the game here. But there's that really interesting
[10:51.840 -> 10:57.840] phrase Matt that good is the enemy of great because you were relatively successful, you were
[10:57.840 -> 11:07.100] where you'd have dreamt of when you were 15. Yeah. And I'm interested in what kind of lessons you could pass on to our listeners then about
[11:07.100 -> 11:11.720] how you do have the courage to break things even if it's not particularly broken.
[11:11.720 -> 11:14.720] Yeah, and I think that's the hard part for me.
[11:14.720 -> 11:21.400] I think, like I'm obsessed with trying to get better with anything and everything like
[11:21.400 -> 11:25.240] I'll look into it and my coach Mikey always says that he's
[11:25.240 -> 11:30.320] like it's such a great trait of mine but it sometimes it can hinder me as well you know
[11:30.320 -> 11:36.680] come too obsessed with something or searching a little bit too much and I think it's been
[11:36.680 -> 11:40.880] great to be able to make these changes and fortunately I feel like they've paid off but
[11:40.880 -> 11:45.920] I feel that I've been lucky to have the people around me that have helped
[11:45.920 -> 11:50.760] me do that in the right way. I think it'd be very easy and you look at other players
[11:50.760 -> 11:56.800] maybe in the past that may have tried to try things drastic changes. I can't speak on behalf
[11:56.800 -> 12:01.800] of them, but I don't think they've got maybe the best advice on it. And I just feel the
[12:01.800 -> 12:06.120] people around me have always given me, they've always been honest, they've always given me
[12:06.120 -> 12:08.880] what they think and I trust them.
[12:08.880 -> 12:10.440] I think that's kind of why I've been able
[12:10.440 -> 12:12.480] to maybe just push on really.
[12:12.480 -> 12:15.000] So can I pick up on that word trust?
[12:15.000 -> 12:17.880] That if you're gonna allow people in a circle
[12:17.880 -> 12:20.520] that are gonna challenge you and push you,
[12:20.520 -> 12:23.560] what is it that they do that means
[12:23.560 -> 12:25.480] that you will invest your trust in them?
[12:25.480 -> 12:29.960] Well, if you look at my team, they got me from Yorkshire.
[12:29.960 -> 12:30.960] Rule number one.
[12:30.960 -> 12:32.880] Yeah, but no, no.
[12:32.880 -> 12:38.800] I think within the team, which I've always appreciated and I think is just invaluable
[12:38.800 -> 12:41.280] is everyone's always been honest with me.
[12:41.280 -> 12:43.200] There's no sugarcoating anything.
[12:43.200 -> 12:45.160] It's not like, you know, it's just
[12:45.160 -> 12:51.040] straight to the point. Tells me how it is, tells me if I've been an annoying little shit
[12:51.040 -> 12:58.480] or I've been, you know, working hard really. And the people that I work with have had experience
[12:58.480 -> 13:02.320] before I started working with them more and more. So, you know, that's obviously a big
[13:02.320 -> 13:05.120] factor but they work hard themselves
[13:05.120 -> 13:10.140] to get better as well and I think that's kind of the big thing that I feel everyone that
[13:10.140 -> 13:13.600] within my team kind of works hard to make themselves better really.
[13:13.600 -> 13:18.240] I'm interested in when you talk about all the different inputs that you get Matt, what
[13:18.240 -> 13:21.200] do you think makes you so coachable?
[13:21.200 -> 13:25.720] I feel like because I'm always just trying to get better. I'm sure my coaches
[13:25.720 -> 13:28.880] probably think I'm a pain in the ass to be honest because I'm like asking questions,
[13:28.880 -> 13:33.840] oh what about this and what about that, but I think I've got better at that over time
[13:33.840 -> 13:38.480] too. I think it's very easy in golf to be very reactive and I still have those days
[13:38.480 -> 13:42.340] where you come off the course and it's not working out and it's like what about this,
[13:42.340 -> 13:48.740] we need to try this and but certainly conversations I've had with Mike when I've finished a round, I've tried
[13:48.740 -> 13:54.860] to be much calmer, clearer in my thinking and tried not to be too reactive, tried to
[13:54.860 -> 13:59.660] come up with a simple plan that we can kind of execute for maybe the next day or if it's
[13:59.660 -> 14:01.140] the following week.
[14:01.140 -> 14:02.320] I think that's been a big thing.
[14:02.320 -> 14:09.640] I think it's just me in the past, I feel like I've come off sometimes or even in practice weeks and it's like I get in a bit of a state
[14:09.640 -> 14:13.560] it's like well this is wrong and this is wrong and I need to do this and what do you think
[14:13.560 -> 14:17.840] of this and it's you just you end up just confusing yourself rather than giving you
[14:17.840 -> 14:20.400] know two or three things that you can stick to.
[14:20.400 -> 14:28.680] Can you give us an example of when you've adopted this new mindset then? I think certainly over the last few months to be honest.
[14:28.680 -> 14:33.360] Struggled with Driver, always been a strength of mine and I struggled this year with it
[14:33.360 -> 14:37.480] and literally it was only about four or five weeks ago, it was like the Saturday I played
[14:37.480 -> 14:47.920] in Memphis in the first play of event and we basically said alright okay three things that we're gonna do for the next however
[14:47.920 -> 14:54.040] many weeks or basically just stick to those three things and it should improve.
[14:54.040 -> 15:00.860] Fortunately it all did but I think it's more like I have such high expectations of myself
[15:00.860 -> 15:08.760] and high expectations of what I want to achieve it's very easy for me to kind of get worked up about that when it's not happening and I look at other
[15:08.760 -> 15:11.800] players that are playing well week in week out and it's like well you know I
[15:11.800 -> 15:16.320] want to do that and I'm trying to almost get there a bit too quick and that's
[15:16.320 -> 15:19.120] when I feel like I've got a short fuse sometimes and that's where I've had to
[15:19.120 -> 15:23.200] take a step back coming off the golf course and try to have a bit clearer
[15:23.200 -> 15:29.000] thinking and have like a very calm conversation with Mike and and he's fantastic at it because he
[15:29.000 -> 15:35.440] understands the mind like so well he's very into Steve Peters chin paradox and
[15:35.440 -> 15:39.400] that sort of stuff and that's what another reason for me why why he is very
[15:39.400 -> 15:43.120] very very good at his job. So we've spoken a fair bit about the kind of
[15:43.120 -> 15:48.000] physical things that you might have done or learned or improved. Let's have a conversation then about the mental
[15:48.000 -> 15:51.680] side of golf. When did you realize that you were going to get involved in a sport where
[15:51.680 -> 15:58.780] you lose an awful lot more than you win? Once, like I was sort of 18, 19, I had some really
[15:58.780 -> 16:03.800] good results, winning the US amateur. Now all of a sudden these professional doors open,
[16:03.800 -> 16:05.200] it's like, hang on a minute like
[16:05.200 -> 16:08.960] this you're doing this for a living like you need to make the cut to make to make money
[16:08.960 -> 16:14.320] and you need to get a card to be able to play the whole season next year that there's loads
[16:14.320 -> 16:19.840] of these things all of a sudden that you enter your mind and I felt very lucky that actually
[16:19.840 -> 16:25.320] looking back I wasn't ever really worried about that. I never caught myself like, oh
[16:25.320 -> 16:31.320] God, I need to make this call or I need to make this. And I think that was probably from
[16:31.320 -> 16:36.280] my parents just because I felt like they would always look after me really, which was probably
[16:36.280 -> 16:41.480] a bit unfair on them. But I certainly think growing up that they just instilled that,
[16:41.480 -> 16:49.640] you know, you've got to work hard and you'll get there in the end. And I think that's kind of what was or it still is like always my thought really.
[16:49.640 -> 16:54.440] So what would you say was the big difference between the world of amateur golf and professional
[16:54.440 -> 16:57.280] golf then when you first made that transition?
[16:57.280 -> 17:01.880] I think amateur golf, it's kind of like, you know, you don't have a great result and it's
[17:01.880 -> 17:02.880] like, well, it's okay.
[17:02.880 -> 17:07.880] There's, you know, there's next week week it doesn't really hinder you that much.
[17:07.880 -> 17:12.280] Professional golf you know you miss a couple cuts in a row it's like panic stations almost
[17:12.280 -> 17:16.560] it's like right well okay I need to do something because I can't do that and get to where I
[17:16.560 -> 17:21.800] want am I going to lose my card you know how am I going to afford to play the next week
[17:21.800 -> 17:27.200] and I felt very lucky that what I did achieve in my amateur career kind of put me in a good
[17:27.200 -> 17:29.080] position going into my professional career.
[17:29.080 -> 17:35.320] I was lucky enough to have great sponsors at the time and didn't have to worry about
[17:35.320 -> 17:38.260] travel costs and entry costs and all that sort of stuff.
[17:38.260 -> 17:46.080] So I think there is just a big shift in mindset and I feel like I got lucky in that I never felt that change.
[17:46.080 -> 17:50.240] I just felt like it was always just gonna happen almost.
[17:50.240 -> 17:54.960] It's interesting that isn't it, that it didn't derail you at any point and you weren't kind
[17:54.960 -> 18:00.400] of overwhelmed by the fact that you were a pro suddenly playing alongside like these
[18:00.400 -> 18:02.960] legends of the game.
[18:02.960 -> 18:05.000] Was there any struggles?
[18:05.000 -> 18:07.000] Because you're making it sound easy.
[18:07.000 -> 18:10.000] I know, I know, and that's the weird thing.
[18:10.000 -> 18:14.000] I think, obviously I'm very numbers driven,
[18:14.000 -> 18:19.000] but I look at my stats effectively,
[18:19.000 -> 18:25.580] and the graph is kind of a shallow incline, which is great.
[18:27.640 -> 18:29.080] There has been drops in performance, there's no doubt about that,
[18:29.080 -> 18:30.540] and that's just always gonna happen,
[18:30.540 -> 18:33.060] but I feel like my first year on tour
[18:33.060 -> 18:35.360] was probably the biggest learning experience,
[18:35.360 -> 18:39.520] because I started off the year and didn't play very well,
[18:39.520 -> 18:41.360] and it's like, well, now I do need,
[18:41.360 -> 18:43.480] getting closer to the end of the season,
[18:43.480 -> 18:47.740] running out of tournaments almost, and then all of a sudden something happened and I
[18:47.740 -> 18:50.920] couldn't even tell you what it was I just start having a couple good results
[18:50.920 -> 18:55.000] and ended up keeping my card and then all of a sudden it's like well now I'm
[18:55.000 -> 19:00.520] safe then I ended up kicking on some more and I think for me it was just kind
[19:00.520 -> 19:08.000] of around 17 and 18 2017 and 18 I think that was kind of the time where I
[19:08.000 -> 19:12.720] was playing well, but like I wasn't kicking on as much as I wanted to, you know, I was
[19:12.720 -> 19:17.880] looking at players around me that I knew and I wasn't performing well enough in the US
[19:17.880 -> 19:22.600] and that was obviously where the game was going and that's where I felt like something
[19:22.600 -> 19:23.600] needed to change.
[19:23.600 -> 19:27.360] So when you talk about this sense of expectation that you had of yourself,
[19:27.760 -> 19:31.160] how did you come back the idea that maybe you had just found your limit?
[19:31.760 -> 19:34.760] You know, like I can imagine that for some players, they get there
[19:34.760 -> 19:38.280] and the culmination of being on the tour is enough.
[19:38.840 -> 19:42.000] And complacency then kicks in of as long as I can maintain this.
[19:42.360 -> 19:47.600] And you seem to be somebody that was constantly striving for the next target, the next challenge.
[19:47.600 -> 19:54.600] Yeah, I had a funny conversation with Mike after the US Open. I was like, it was obviously
[19:54.600 -> 19:59.680] such a high and I've kind of come off it and I'm like, I almost feel flat. You know, I
[19:59.680 -> 20:04.520] felt like, what if I, you know, I almost didn't want to go and practice. I almost didn't want
[20:04.520 -> 20:08.480] to play the rest of the tournaments for the year, I just kind of wanted to enjoy it and
[20:08.480 -> 20:13.080] I'm thinking to myself, well, you know, will I ever get that bug back to go and practice
[20:13.080 -> 20:18.680] hard and work hard and came back like three months later or something when I wasn't playing
[20:18.680 -> 20:19.680] as well.
[20:19.680 -> 20:26.400] But I think it's just like always been in my nature that I just feel like I can compete with the
[20:26.400 -> 20:31.920] best when I've played my best I can compete with the best and to me it's trying to get
[20:31.920 -> 20:35.280] more of that out of me more regularly really.
[20:35.280 -> 20:40.080] I know people make a big thing about noting down sort of what do they say every shot he's
[20:40.080 -> 20:43.440] ever played is written in one of the books right.
[20:43.440 -> 20:47.400] I'm interested in what that does for you because it feels to me like you've got a load of safety
[20:47.400 -> 20:48.400] nets.
[20:48.400 -> 20:51.400] You know, we've spoken about what your parents provide for you and the people around you
[20:51.400 -> 20:53.240] provide you with this sort of safety net.
[20:53.240 -> 20:58.280] You know, you recently got engaged, there's another one that it's almost like you're great
[20:58.280 -> 21:02.280] at putting these things in that just almost give you a bit of protection.
[21:02.280 -> 21:03.280] Am I reading that right?
[21:03.280 -> 21:10.240] Will Barron-Williams Yeah, yeah, no, I would say so. I think, like I say, I'm obsessed with the numbers because I just feel like if I know
[21:10.240 -> 21:15.400] where I currently am or know where I am at all times, I know I need to get better than
[21:15.400 -> 21:18.120] that or what do I need to do to get better than that.
[21:18.120 -> 21:20.800] And then it's like, well, how are we going to do that?
[21:20.800 -> 21:24.840] And I feel like that's a combination of all the team where we think of the ideas to get
[21:24.840 -> 21:30.480] better. That is why really I keep all the information and the data and look at it
[21:30.480 -> 21:36.480] just because I feel like that tells me where I am at all times and tells me okay well I've
[21:36.480 -> 21:41.240] got this how much to go or I need to change this I need to do that.
[21:41.240 -> 21:44.120] So can I ask when you first wrote down those numbers?
[21:44.120 -> 21:49.200] I've kept stats ever since I was on tour, like on the course of 2015, even in my amateur
[21:49.200 -> 21:55.440] days before, but I don't know where they are, but 2015 to today I've got my stats from just
[21:55.440 -> 22:01.160] tournament play, but 2019 onwards is when I started recording like my practice challenges
[22:01.160 -> 22:02.160] and stuff like that.
[22:02.160 -> 22:04.600] So it's every shot now, like it's pretty much?
[22:04.600 -> 22:09.080] Pretty much, Yeah, yeah. Anytime that I'm doing like a performance sort of challenge really,
[22:09.080 -> 22:13.120] that's what we record. I'm not recording like every shot after I've hit a
[22:13.120 -> 22:17.440] technical, you know, just a regular range shot. And how often do you go back to
[22:17.440 -> 22:22.440] revisit these? Well we're kind of in the process at the minute of trying to pull
[22:22.440 -> 22:25.240] it all together in one place and be
[22:25.240 -> 22:31.240] able to compare practice and tournament play, seeing if there's any correlation, you know,
[22:31.240 -> 22:35.160] when I practice well here, does that influence this?
[22:35.160 -> 22:38.040] We're trying to do that at the minute basically.
[22:38.040 -> 22:42.900] We've got five years of data and as Steve, my coach, says it's like, it feels like we're
[22:42.900 -> 22:49.600] just collecting data for data's sake now, whereas we need someone to go through it and see what they can find and I'll be
[22:49.600 -> 22:53.440] devastated if there's nothing, but I'm convinced there's at least one thing, there's got to
[22:53.440 -> 22:54.440] be one thing.
[22:54.440 -> 22:56.440] What do you think it will show?
[22:56.440 -> 23:00.360] Honestly, I've got no idea because I just feel like there's so many variables, there's
[23:00.360 -> 23:01.360] so many variables.
[23:01.360 -> 23:08.400] I mean, the one thing that I feel like I came up with the other day was noting down when
[23:08.400 -> 23:14.960] I had any technical changes in my swing or anything like that and then finding the date,
[23:14.960 -> 23:21.080] seeing where I was at with my game and then look a week later, two, three, four weeks,
[23:21.080 -> 23:25.880] seeing like when that intervention, when it either kicked in, did it improve,
[23:25.880 -> 23:30.400] did it not improve, because I have kept notes over the last five years of what I did in
[23:30.400 -> 23:33.040] my lessons with Mike.
[23:33.040 -> 23:36.160] So I feel like that's another area that we can look into.
[23:36.160 -> 23:41.120] I mean it's interesting, we interviewed Matthew McConaughey, the Oscar winning actor who has
[23:41.120 -> 23:45.420] got 30 years worth of data through his diaries and what he said he does is
[23:45.420 -> 23:50.420] when things start to go wrong or awry he goes back to the data and says when it
[23:50.420 -> 23:55.300] was going well what was I doing what was my sleeping what was my diet like who
[23:55.300 -> 23:59.460] was I hanging around with and that allows him to see where he's
[23:59.460 -> 24:03.020] maybe come off course a little bit and I'm interested do you think like
[24:03.020 -> 24:05.160] there's a killer start
[24:05.160 -> 24:09.840] that you know when I nailed that start everything else tends to follow?
[24:09.840 -> 24:14.320] I do feel like there could be yeah like I say there's so many variables that go
[24:14.320 -> 24:19.180] into practice and tournament play but everyone has a blueprint of how their
[24:19.180 -> 24:26.320] game is so you know my strengths are driving and putting, but other guys might be I am playing
[24:26.320 -> 24:27.320] short game.
[24:27.320 -> 24:30.080] But I feel like I'm taking a guess here.
[24:30.080 -> 24:34.880] If I practice and my driving's good and my putting's good, probably going to lead to
[24:34.880 -> 24:37.680] good results on the course in those areas.
[24:37.680 -> 24:40.920] I don't think it's quite as black and white as that, but I definitely think there's something
[24:40.920 -> 24:41.920] in it.
[24:41.920 -> 24:48.160] So how much do you play to your strengths and how much do you try to mitigate for your weaknesses then? Again that's the balance
[24:48.160 -> 24:52.580] that we're looking at, you know, we have the breakdown of how much time we're spending
[24:52.580 -> 24:59.400] in each area and what it is that we need to do to improve in each area. For me this year
[24:59.400 -> 25:07.800] my driving, normally strength is what's let me down. I would say the last month we spent much more time on driving.
[25:07.800 -> 25:12.680] So you'd think other areas might drop, but me and Micah were saying it's like spinning
[25:12.680 -> 25:13.680] plates, you know.
[25:13.680 -> 25:17.560] You spend all this time on one and one's probably like dropping off.
[25:17.560 -> 25:21.960] And that's the annoying thing about golf is there's just so many things to keep an eye
[25:21.960 -> 25:22.960] on.
[25:22.960 -> 25:24.120] So all of this is about you, right?
[25:24.120 -> 25:28.280] It's about your stats, your numbers, your shots, your preparation.
[25:28.280 -> 25:33.280] What room have you left for watching other people and asking questions of what others
[25:33.280 -> 25:34.280] do?
[25:34.280 -> 25:37.640] I really don't like to ask other golfers.
[25:37.640 -> 25:39.520] I really don't.
[25:39.520 -> 25:45.800] And people often have said that to me, you know, like Billy said, oh speak to Luke Donald about
[25:45.800 -> 25:54.840] his short game or speak to whoever it is about that, but they swing it differently, their
[25:54.840 -> 25:59.480] feelings are different, their technique is different, I don't feel like how it can apply
[25:59.480 -> 26:00.640] to me.
[26:00.640 -> 26:06.600] Things like course preparation or diet or ideas on how to play the game.
[26:06.600 -> 26:11.400] Yes, I would get it, but anything that's like probably physical, I wouldn't want to get
[26:11.400 -> 26:15.960] involved because it's like not my, it's like not my pattern.
[26:15.960 -> 26:20.240] And I just don't, I feel really uncomfortable with that stuff because I don't feel like
[26:20.240 -> 26:22.280] I want to get into bad habits from someone else.
[26:22.280 -> 26:27.960] So have you gone to any goal, like, I don't know, I look at someone, let's take Tiger Woods as a great example, an elite
[26:27.960 -> 26:35.720] golfer decade after decade, he must have some mental advice that he can hand to other golfers.
[26:35.720 -> 26:39.200] It almost feels a shame not to tap into that or roar into someone.
[26:39.200 -> 26:40.680] I agree, I agree.
[26:40.680 -> 26:49.000] And I think it's funny, for me personally, I think when you're actually involved in the
[26:49.000 -> 26:55.600] game and you see these people, you play alongside them and you get to know them, you understand
[26:55.600 -> 26:58.400] the character, you understand how they are in these moments.
[26:58.400 -> 27:08.920] I feel like when you're playing in the last group coming down the final stretch. And you know, you see the strengths and you see the weaknesses in my opinion, and just
[27:08.920 -> 27:12.320] like they see my strengths and weaknesses as well.
[27:12.320 -> 27:17.200] And I think everyone would rate themselves as better than everyone else.
[27:17.200 -> 27:23.360] You know, golf's a very selfish individual sport, and I would say that we all put ourselves
[27:23.360 -> 27:26.400] on a pedestal above everyone else when we
[27:26.400 -> 27:31.120] feel like we're playing our best, I think anyway, certainly at the top level.
[27:31.120 -> 27:36.220] And for me, I find it hard to kind of, I also find it a bit odd when you're trying to play
[27:36.220 -> 27:39.440] against these guys and be like, oh, what do you think about this?
[27:39.440 -> 27:43.160] For them to share that advice, I think is difficult, you know.
[27:43.160 -> 27:45.980] I probably wouldn't dream of asking Tiger any
[27:45.980 -> 27:50.680] mental advice because I'd be scared to death to ask him for one but also I don't think
[27:50.680 -> 27:55.080] he'd tell me. And I always think that, I always wonder like, are you getting the truth?
[27:55.080 -> 27:56.960] Well, almost like they tell you.
[27:56.960 -> 28:01.040] Yeah, they tell you something that's a bit nicer or simpler than actually what they're
[28:01.040 -> 28:02.040] really doing.
[28:02.040 -> 28:03.040] They're positive.
[28:03.040 -> 28:07.840] You've won one of the most famous golf tournaments in the world.
[28:07.840 -> 28:11.440] Why would you be scared to go and speak to Tiger Woods?
[28:11.440 -> 28:14.080] It's Tiger Woods, isn't it?
[28:14.080 -> 28:19.040] No, I could have a conversation with Tiger, but I just feel like, again, it's the same
[28:19.040 -> 28:23.200] deal, you know, he's playing against, I mean, he's not playing at the minute, but he's playing
[28:23.200 -> 28:24.200] against me.
[28:24.200 -> 28:25.800] Why would he reveal that?
[28:25.800 -> 28:31.560] Like you know, I, people ask my advice, I'll be honest, I don't tell them the truth.
[28:31.560 -> 28:36.400] Like I, well I tell them the truth, but like, a very dumbed down, yeah, very, very dumbed
[28:36.400 -> 28:37.400] down version.
[28:37.400 -> 28:40.440] Because I noticed when you spoke about how the issues with my driver, so we focused on
[28:40.440 -> 28:43.040] three areas, you weren't, you didn't tell us what the three areas were.
[28:43.040 -> 28:44.040] No, no, no.
[28:44.040 -> 28:45.080] That was on purpose, right?
[28:45.080 -> 28:46.080] Well, yeah, yeah.
[28:46.080 -> 28:47.080] Yeah.
[28:47.080 -> 28:51.560] See, what I found interesting watching some of the documentaries about you though, Matt,
[28:51.560 -> 28:56.760] is that some of the big alphas that are on the American tour that were quite loud and
[28:56.760 -> 29:02.560] brash and very dominating characters, and you were sort of the opposite of that.
[29:02.560 -> 29:05.960] You were almost quite quiet, keeping your head down, just getting on with it.
[29:05.960 -> 29:10.760] And I'm interested in, how do you block out the noise from those dominant characters to
[29:10.760 -> 29:15.440] make sure you can just focus on your game rather than being distracted?
[29:15.440 -> 29:21.640] I think it's just, again, it's having the trust in doing what works well for me.
[29:21.640 -> 29:25.280] People laugh at all the numbers and stats that I take down, you know,
[29:25.280 -> 29:31.000] it's like, not in like a nasty way, but it's like, that's like, it's yeah, it's like a
[29:31.000 -> 29:35.160] bit of a running joke, oh, this is probably got a spreadsheet out, which always makes
[29:35.160 -> 29:41.840] me laugh. Yeah, it always makes me laugh. No, not really. No, no, not really. It always
[29:41.840 -> 29:46.240] makes me laugh because, like, to me, it's like, well, I feel like I've got an edge over
[29:46.240 -> 29:49.960] everyone because I do that and that's like my thing.
[29:49.960 -> 29:53.080] Just like they might think something else that they do is an edge as well.
[29:53.080 -> 29:59.880] But I just have a real belief in the people I work with and the real belief in myself
[29:59.880 -> 30:03.520] to find the answers to get better, whichever way it is.
[30:03.520 -> 30:08.560] Like I'm not worried about playing someone who's 6'4 and hits it 340 down the middle,
[30:08.560 -> 30:10.840] it's like I'll beat them another way.
[30:10.840 -> 30:15.600] So you know when you walk into the next hole, and again I'm often intrigued as takers into
[30:15.600 -> 30:20.680] that conversation of when you're walking together with them, are you talking to each other,
[30:20.680 -> 30:22.320] what's the conversation like?
[30:22.320 -> 30:23.760] Yeah, it's polite chit chat.
[30:23.760 -> 30:24.760] Is it?
[30:24.760 -> 30:29.640] Yeah, it's like oh what's your schedule coming up, and are you going anywhere on holiday,
[30:29.640 -> 30:30.640] it's just like polite chit-chat.
[30:30.640 -> 30:31.640] No sledging?
[30:31.640 -> 30:32.640] No sledging, no, no, never.
[30:32.640 -> 30:33.640] Your swing looks a bit off to those guys.
[30:33.640 -> 30:34.640] Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[30:34.640 -> 30:35.640] A few issues with you.
[30:35.640 -> 30:42.680] There's none of that, but I mean, you know, Billy always tells me, Seve always used to
[30:42.680 -> 30:46.280] say shake hands on the tee with the guy and it'd be like,
[30:46.280 -> 30:52.080] play well and couldn't mean it less. You know, it's like, everyone always does it. They always
[30:52.080 -> 30:58.400] say, oh yeah, play well. Do we really mean it? I mean, you want to win, right? Everyone
[30:58.400 -> 30:59.760] wants to beat each other, yeah.
[30:59.760 -> 31:03.800] Let's talk then about Billy, because I know it's a special relationship that you both
[31:03.800 -> 31:06.500] have and it needs to be really between golfer and caddie.
[31:06.500 -> 31:09.400] How would you describe your relationship?
[31:09.400 -> 31:11.480] I think we've got a very good relationship.
[31:11.480 -> 31:17.160] I think I respect Billy a hell of a lot given what he's done in his career, his experience,
[31:17.160 -> 31:18.720] his knowledge.
[31:18.720 -> 31:23.360] Sometimes we don't always see eye to eye and I have a different theory on what he has.
[31:23.360 -> 31:24.360] He's taught me a lot.
[31:24.360 -> 31:26.200] I think I've taught him a lot.
[31:26.200 -> 31:28.480] I think the biggest thing is that we just seem
[31:28.480 -> 31:30.840] to have a lot in common, like, you know,
[31:30.840 -> 31:34.720] we're kind of both from working class families, I guess,
[31:34.720 -> 31:38.440] and just like, very down to earth, both love football,
[31:38.440 -> 31:41.680] and I just think, like, we just get on really well,
[31:41.680 -> 31:43.720] and just, you know, for the most part,
[31:43.720 -> 31:45.040] I'd say we just enjoy our
[31:45.040 -> 31:46.040] time out there, really.
[31:46.040 -> 31:48.520] And what's the biggest thing he's taught you?
[31:48.520 -> 31:53.080] I wouldn't necessarily say it's taught me, I think it's how we work together.
[31:53.080 -> 31:59.120] I think he's very straight to the point, he's very direct, you know, it's like there's never
[31:59.120 -> 32:03.880] um in an r and it's like, it's 180 out of 79, that's it.
[32:03.880 -> 32:08.400] You know, whereas I've had caddies previously where it's like, well, it could
[32:08.400 -> 32:11.240] be this, but maybe that, what about there?
[32:11.240 -> 32:15.720] And it's like, you, you end up like having too many thoughts in your head, then you're
[32:15.720 -> 32:16.880] not committed to the shot.
[32:16.920 -> 32:18.280] And then it's probably a poorer shot.
[32:18.920 -> 32:22.800] I think I've learned a lot from that being more, you know, just straight to the point.
[32:22.800 -> 32:27.600] And he's very honest in his feedback and what he says to me about my game, how he sees it,
[32:27.600 -> 32:30.480] my game, his conversations with the coaches.
[32:31.320 -> 32:32.280] He's very lucky.
[32:32.400 -> 32:35.360] Lee Westwood's arguably one of the best drivers of the ball all time.
[32:35.960 -> 32:40.440] Seve Ballesteros, one of the best, you know, short games of all time.
[32:40.440 -> 32:44.320] And then Sergio Garcia is probably one of the best iron players of all time, which is
[32:44.480 -> 32:48.600] painful for me because he's like, I hit all these other shots and he's like, what is that?
[32:48.600 -> 32:50.120] You know, because he's seen those guys.
[32:50.120 -> 32:55.400] So it's tough because sometimes he's got those colored glasses on where he's, you know, but
[32:55.400 -> 32:57.640] it's very valuable, his feedback, what he gives.
[32:57.640 -> 33:01.020] And obviously, as you just mentioned, he's worked with the best, right?
[33:01.020 -> 33:04.280] So we've discussed the fact that you're a humble guy.
[33:04.280 -> 33:08.940] Are you humble enough to say to him, what would Seve have done in this situation?
[33:08.940 -> 33:09.940] What would he have played here?
[33:09.940 -> 33:10.940] Will Barron No.
[33:10.940 -> 33:16.320] I don't play the same style of shots like Seve or I don't have the same technique as
[33:16.320 -> 33:24.140] Lee or Sergio and like, what's going to be, again, kind of go back to what's optimal for
[33:24.140 -> 33:25.840] me, what's the right thing for again, kind of go back to someone's like, what's optimal for me? What's the right thing for me?
[33:25.840 -> 33:26.840] What do I practice?
[33:26.840 -> 33:29.800] You know, there's multiple times this year where he said, oh, I see this shot.
[33:29.800 -> 33:32.760] And I'm like, well, I don't really practice that.
[33:32.760 -> 33:34.600] So I don't feel comfortable doing that.
[33:34.600 -> 33:37.080] I'm going to do this one instead.
[33:37.080 -> 33:40.120] Which again, you know, he totally understands.
[33:40.120 -> 33:43.800] And how do you agree to disagree then when that happens?
[33:43.800 -> 33:45.120] What's your strategy?
[33:45.120 -> 33:47.760] I think sometimes I could be better with that
[33:47.760 -> 33:50.560] rather than just agreeing to what he says.
[33:50.560 -> 33:54.240] I think we do have very good conversations if we're unsure
[33:54.240 -> 33:57.120] and if I'm kind of, again, I'm kind of looking
[33:57.120 -> 33:59.200] at the numbers side of it and it's like,
[33:59.200 -> 34:02.120] well, if the flag's at the back of the green
[34:02.120 -> 34:04.720] and there's water over the green,
[34:04.720 -> 34:05.200] you take the
[34:05.200 -> 34:09.640] club that is almost physically impossible that can go that far rather than trying to
[34:09.640 -> 34:15.120] really hit it close, say three out of ten you could hit it really close but the other
[34:15.120 -> 34:16.560] seven could go in the water.
[34:16.560 -> 34:21.480] It's like sort of give and take and I feel like we have those conversations pretty openly
[34:21.480 -> 34:22.480] and well.
[34:22.480 -> 34:25.480] And what room do you leave for instinct?
[34:25.480 -> 34:26.480] I think it's half and half.
[34:26.480 -> 34:29.240] I know it doesn't sound like it, but I do think it's half and half.
[34:29.240 -> 34:36.480] I think, you know, hitting the golf shot itself is, yes, you're trying to hit these positions,
[34:36.480 -> 34:41.160] but like, if you're on the golf course thinking, well, okay, I've got to go here and here and
[34:41.160 -> 34:44.040] here and here, you know, you're never going to hit a good shot.
[34:44.040 -> 34:49.600] So I think we often talk about doing these rehearsals and drills and technique stuff
[34:49.600 -> 34:53.880] on the range, but then when I go on the golf course, it's like, you just play.
[34:53.880 -> 34:57.900] You know, you're not thinking about that, you just play.
[34:57.900 -> 35:04.320] And then at the same time, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, what's the optimal play here,
[35:04.320 -> 35:06.440] where, what's the optimal place to hit it here?
[35:06.440 -> 35:07.640] What about here?
[35:07.640 -> 35:10.440] So I do think it is a combination.
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[38:53.040 -> 38:58.400] And you use that lovely phrase before around, before I commit to the shot and I'm interested,
[38:58.400 -> 39:04.080] what's the process then from the moment you arrive on the tee between taking in all this
[39:04.080 -> 39:06.360] data and information until the moment that you choose to, I between taking in all this data and information, until the
[39:06.360 -> 39:09.800] moment that you choose to, I want to commit to this completely.
[39:09.800 -> 39:16.360] Yeah, we talk about, you know, first things like, okay, what club is it off the tee?
[39:16.360 -> 39:18.760] Alright, it's Driver.
[39:18.760 -> 39:19.760] Where's our line?
[39:19.760 -> 39:21.160] Okay, it's that TV tower.
[39:21.160 -> 39:22.520] Alright, where's the wind?
[39:22.520 -> 39:24.120] It's off the right.
[39:24.120 -> 39:26.520] Okay, and then for me, once
[39:26.520 -> 39:31.720] I've got that information from Billy, and obviously a little bit input myself, then
[39:31.720 -> 39:34.600] it's like, okay, it's over to me, it's like, okay, well how am I going to get the ball
[39:34.600 -> 39:40.440] there, so then it's like, okay, I know what club it is, I know what I'm doing, now I've
[39:40.440 -> 39:45.160] just got to get it there, and then it's kind of like into my routine. And what's that?
[39:45.160 -> 39:46.160] Would you tell us about that?
[39:46.160 -> 39:50.520] So my routine is like two practice swings behind the ball, look at where I'm trying
[39:50.520 -> 39:56.880] to finish it, step in there, aim at my club face, have another look, set up, have another
[39:56.880 -> 39:58.560] look and then go.
[39:58.560 -> 40:01.880] I've had that same routine for years now.
[40:01.880 -> 40:06.000] In the heat of the moment, having that consistency of doing the
[40:06.000 -> 40:10.920] same thing, you know, breathing the same amount of times, whatever it might be, I think that
[40:10.920 -> 40:13.840] helps the clarification of, you know, what you're going to do.
[40:13.840 -> 40:19.260] And in those moments, does self-doubt exist? Is there that cheeky little dissenting voice
[40:19.260 -> 40:20.260] in your head?
[40:20.260 -> 40:25.040] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. If there's, if there's water on the left it's always like, don't hit it
[40:25.040 -> 40:33.040] left, you know. But I think when you're playing well it's kind of less of an issue because
[40:33.040 -> 40:37.220] you just feel like you know where the ball's going to go. I think when you're not playing
[40:37.220 -> 40:42.120] so well it's almost a bit like, well on the last hole I hit it left and on the two holes
[40:42.120 -> 40:48.120] I hit it right, like where's this one going? You know, I think when you're not playing well it's kind of, it's obviously much harder
[40:48.120 -> 40:52.480] and I think that's kind of the big issue. I think when you are playing well it's a little
[40:52.480 -> 40:54.360] bit easier to commit.
[40:54.360 -> 40:58.500] And so much work has gone into your game, physically and mentally. You've got great
[40:58.500 -> 41:03.480] people around you. You clearly work incredibly hard to get yourself to this point. But before
[41:03.480 -> 41:07.000] you won the US Open there was something that was not quite right and
[41:07.680 -> 41:10.980] I've read that Billy stepped in to help. Would you mind sharing that story with us?
[41:11.460 -> 41:15.800] Yeah, it's it's kind of a mix of the two really finished 21
[41:16.480 -> 41:18.480] Played okay didn't play great
[41:18.840 -> 41:27.600] Felt like my irons were the big letdown. That's where I was missing a big, big part of my game. So we basically
[41:27.600 -> 41:33.760] changed my technique with my irons, me and Mike, and he wanted me to basically be a little
[41:33.760 -> 41:38.800] bit straighter in my left arm, which did a couple of things to help me have more control
[41:38.800 -> 41:46.960] basically. Practised it in January, felt pretty good. Then basically went on a run between January and May
[41:46.960 -> 41:51.440] of like maybe seven top tens out of ten events or something.
[41:51.440 -> 41:54.280] It was just like my best run of golf that I've ever played.
[41:54.280 -> 41:56.880] Like I just knew that I was playing really well.
[41:56.880 -> 41:59.400] Everything felt really solid.
[41:59.400 -> 42:03.320] But then I was putting myself in these positions
[42:03.320 -> 42:05.520] because I was playing so much better, but nothing
[42:05.520 -> 42:07.040] was really going my way.
[42:07.040 -> 42:10.920] I wasn't kind of getting in the final groups content on Sunday.
[42:10.920 -> 42:16.080] It was like I was having average days Saturday, then maybe a good day Sunday to finish top
[42:16.080 -> 42:19.960] 10 rather than kind of being in there with a chance to win.
[42:19.960 -> 42:22.280] So I was getting frustrated with it really.
[42:22.280 -> 42:29.600] And I think one week was probably one week too far for Billy because I was complaining, oh how's that done that and I can't believe
[42:29.600 -> 42:34.640] that's a lie and this never goes right for us and I missed the court, didn't play very
[42:34.640 -> 42:40.720] well and literally I'm at home like probably the week after and my parents are at home
[42:40.720 -> 42:45.400] as well and I get a call off Billy and I'm like Billy never calls me
[42:45.400 -> 42:50.200] no way this is my oh god like so I go upstairs to take it and he's like oh
[42:50.200 -> 42:56.640] listen you know I really didn't enjoy last week you know you've moaning a lot
[42:56.640 -> 43:01.440] it's negative and you just gotta let it go you know you've got to have a better
[43:01.440 -> 43:04.640] attitude on the golf course and that's you know that's that's the difference
[43:04.640 -> 43:05.240] that's gonna that's what's holding golf course and that's the difference,
[43:05.240 -> 43:07.640] that's what's holding you back.
[43:07.640 -> 43:11.120] Again there's the honesty and I've got to accept that.
[43:11.120 -> 43:13.360] Did you try and fight this conversation?
[43:13.360 -> 43:19.680] No not really, I knew it was coming because I almost felt myself had been like it previous
[43:19.680 -> 43:26.900] weeks and in my head I'm like, you know, I'll be okay. I was kind of just batting it off a
[43:26.900 -> 43:34.540] little bit but I kind of knew it was in there and then after that I was great. I really
[43:34.540 -> 43:40.140] made a concerted effort on the golf course to just be a little bit calmer, getting less
[43:40.140 -> 43:45.120] worked up about it and I just felt like it really, really, really paid off.
[43:45.120 -> 43:50.880] And just obviously I think it was like probably what four or five tournaments later I won
[43:50.880 -> 43:51.880] the US Open.
[43:51.880 -> 43:52.880] I think it was four tournaments later.
[43:52.880 -> 43:53.880] So, yeah.
[43:53.880 -> 43:59.600] So that reminds me of a conversation we had with the British tennis player Johanna Konta
[43:59.600 -> 44:06.480] and she spoke about the import of a psychologist called Juan Cotto who saw that her attitude was probably
[44:06.480 -> 44:13.360] what Billy was referring to and he gave a really simple formula where he said struggle
[44:13.360 -> 44:16.520] times resistance equals pain.
[44:16.520 -> 44:20.360] So he said when things are not going well, when you fight it and say it's not fair and
[44:20.360 -> 44:29.280] that's not good enough, that increases the pain that you feel, whereas if you reduce the struggle, you reduce the
[44:29.280 -> 44:32.920] pain and you can actually enjoy the experience.
[44:32.920 -> 44:38.080] One of the comments that I heard somebody make about you early on in your career is
[44:38.080 -> 44:43.960] you need to get better at moving on from a bad shot, a mistake, so you need to almost
[44:43.960 -> 44:45.560] reduce the struggle that you
[44:45.560 -> 44:46.560] go through.
[44:46.560 -> 44:51.280] So what lessons and techniques could you share with us about how you've learned to move on
[44:51.280 -> 44:53.000] from a mistake or a cock up?
[44:53.000 -> 44:57.280] Yeah, I think that's the thing, I wouldn't say I've fully learned my lesson.
[44:57.280 -> 45:06.440] I would say that me and Mike talk about this a lot, I work with a psychologist and it's kind of mainly based on the Chimp
[45:06.440 -> 45:13.600] Paradox basically and Mike would class me as like a C-minus student, which always makes
[45:13.600 -> 45:15.640] me laugh, but he's probably right.
[45:15.640 -> 45:20.200] I probably don't necessarily work quite hard enough on that side of it.
[45:20.200 -> 45:26.240] I think I have periods where I'm very good and I have periods where I'm not so good.
[45:26.240 -> 45:36.840] I just find it hard to sit down and actually do some sort of self-thinking about how I
[45:36.840 -> 45:38.160] would be better almost.
[45:38.160 -> 45:43.640] And having worked with the guy, Robbie, that I work with, I definitely feel better after
[45:43.640 -> 45:45.360] I talk to him more like
[45:45.360 -> 45:50.680] regularly to be able to kind of just get things off my chest and talk about how you know how
[45:50.680 -> 45:56.000] I'm feeling, how my game's playing, but at the same time in my own mind I often try and
[45:56.000 -> 46:02.360] think well what is the, what's the plan, what's the three month, six month, year plan and
[46:02.360 -> 46:10.320] at the end of the day like as much as I tried to buy into this like it is only golf and I've already created a great life for myself
[46:10.320 -> 46:15.040] and it's trying to look at that side of the perspective rather than just trying
[46:15.040 -> 46:20.200] to beat myself up all the time. So if we use the example of Johanna she said that
[46:20.200 -> 46:25.040] she came up with ideas of, she'd write reminders on the tennis racket of
[46:25.040 -> 46:29.840] just look up at the blue sky or smile a bit more and it was simple things to remember.
[46:29.840 -> 46:31.840] I hate it when people tell me smile.
[46:31.840 -> 46:35.840] Yeah of course, but for her it was more about having that sense of perspective.
[46:35.840 -> 46:42.240] Yeah, because I don't tell people in the office to smile more, you know what I mean?
[46:42.240 -> 46:49.420] Like the people who come to watch golf tournaments or they tweet at you or we were laughing about it on the plane this morning
[46:49.420 -> 46:55.620] like some of the other Ryder Cup lads. You know, it's like, oh, you should smile more.
[46:55.620 -> 47:00.900] It's like, well, you know, we don't come into whatever industry you do and like, you know,
[47:00.900 -> 47:07.640] you look a bit miserable today. Smile more. That is a bit annoying, but I get it,
[47:07.640 -> 47:11.760] me hitting it in the rough or in the water is a very tiny problem compared to…
[47:11.760 -> 47:14.760] I think there's also a random thing if you're hitting it in the rough and then got a great
[47:14.760 -> 47:15.760] big beaming smile on your face.
[47:15.760 -> 47:16.760] Yeah, well yeah.
[47:16.760 -> 47:17.760] Then there's another issue.
[47:17.760 -> 47:23.640] And I think that is my, I think my big concern that I've spoke about before to the people
[47:23.640 -> 47:26.240] around me is like, I
[47:26.240 -> 47:31.040] worry that if I have this come off now, all of a sudden have this persona of like, it's
[47:31.040 -> 47:35.080] all right, it's only golf, people will be like, he doesn't care anymore.
[47:35.080 -> 47:37.040] Like, you know, he doesn't care.
[47:37.040 -> 47:44.280] Are you protecting yourself a bit then when you have these kinds of conversations where
[47:44.280 -> 47:46.320] if you become easy and comfortable with the game of conversations where if you become easy and comfortable with
[47:46.320 -> 47:49.840] the game of golf, then you become easy and comfortable with losing.
[47:49.840 -> 47:53.320] And I wonder whether you just don't allow yourself to go there.
[47:53.320 -> 48:02.000] Yeah, I mean, I had a chance to win recently and I was absolutely gutted that I didn't
[48:02.000 -> 48:03.000] win.
[48:03.000 -> 48:06.680] I just didn't want to talk for the... I finished, got back to
[48:06.680 -> 48:12.240] the hotel room, just didn't say a word to my now fiancé, literally didn't say a word.
[48:12.240 -> 48:16.600] And she's like, you know, it's fine, like, you know, you played so well, it was close,
[48:16.600 -> 48:19.640] just a couple bad holes, blah blah blah. And she was fantastic about it, like, she was
[48:19.640 -> 48:23.600] so nice, and my parents came in because we were going for dinner, and they were, you
[48:23.600 -> 48:29.520] know, it was so nice, but at the same time in my mind I'm just thinking, you don't get it, like I wanted to win, like
[48:29.520 -> 48:31.720] I really want, you know what I mean?
[48:31.720 -> 48:36.360] And what is it that you really want and is it that you want to be the best? Is it that
[48:36.360 -> 48:39.880] you want the, I guess it's no longer about the cheque, you've had a lot of those in your
[48:39.880 -> 48:44.520] career and that's fantastic, so is it the silverware, what's the thing?
[48:44.520 -> 48:50.020] It's the beat and everyone, it is the winning is the winning. Before I won the US Open I remember specifically
[48:50.020 -> 48:55.480] Brooks Koepka winning majors and seeing him kind of do stuff in the media and various
[48:55.480 -> 49:00.320] other bits and pieces and I thought to myself a little bit, I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind
[49:00.320 -> 49:05.760] a little bit of that, that's quite cool and looks enjoyable. Then I won the US Open,
[49:06.800 -> 49:12.720] did the Netflix and things have changed like drastically, you know, go out to dinner,
[49:12.720 -> 49:17.040] I've never had this in my life, go out to dinner, people come up, oh can I have a picture, can you
[49:17.040 -> 49:22.080] sign this and it's never a problem, I don't mind, everyone's, I've been very lucky, everyone's so
[49:22.080 -> 49:26.720] polite to me and great but it's bizarre for me.
[49:26.720 -> 49:30.680] It really is bizarre, you know, never growing up with anything like that, never been in
[49:30.680 -> 49:35.260] that sort of limelight and now like you're halfway through your dinner and someone's
[49:35.260 -> 49:38.560] coming over and it's just, it's really, really odd.
[49:38.560 -> 49:41.960] And I think it's been a little bit hard for my mum and dad because, you know, they've
[49:41.960 -> 49:44.200] never experienced it too.
[49:44.200 -> 49:45.040] And they're
[49:45.040 -> 49:50.140] getting things left right and centre. But when we watched you on that Netflix
[49:50.140 -> 49:54.700] documentary after you'd won the Open you almost looked a little bit
[49:54.700 -> 49:59.520] underwhelmed and I was reminded of when we spoke to Sir Chris Hoy and he said
[49:59.520 -> 50:02.760] that winning was everything when he won the gold medal and he forgot to celebrate
[50:02.760 -> 50:08.760] afterwards because that wasn't what he was focused on, it was just the crossing that finish line first and
[50:08.760 -> 50:14.880] that was the feelings that I got when I saw you walk into your group of family and friends,
[50:14.880 -> 50:17.960] you almost looked a little bit underwhelmed by the experience.
[50:17.960 -> 50:23.000] Yeah I think, I wouldn't say I was underwhelmed, like you know, best day of my life, you know
[50:23.000 -> 50:26.720] in my opinion it's what I'd worked for, what I grew up trying to do.
[50:26.720 -> 50:33.520] And, you know, I remember being on the green and saying to, like, my dad, like, you know,
[50:33.520 -> 50:39.160] we did it, you know, and it's like, it was just, yeah, it was just an unbelievable moment
[50:39.160 -> 50:40.160] for me.
[50:40.160 -> 50:49.080] But like, at the same time, what comes after it, it's kind of all new and it's kind of
[50:49.080 -> 50:53.120] sometimes hard to get your head around that it's like this is the new norm and you've
[50:53.120 -> 50:54.680] got to accept that.
[50:54.680 -> 51:00.520] You know it can't just be like, go away, leave me alone, you can't just be a recluse, you
[51:00.520 -> 51:01.520] know what I mean.
[51:01.520 -> 51:05.080] What did you learn in that period that would be valuable for our listeners?
[51:05.080 -> 51:09.720] I think the biggest thing was time.
[51:09.720 -> 51:17.880] I think I was playing so well at that period of time and the time the game was like felt
[51:17.880 -> 51:25.360] easy and I felt like I could just recreate that and then all of a sudden it was kind of like you have a period of where
[51:25.360 -> 51:32.960] you're not playing so well and it's like well now what like all of a sudden the bug came
[51:32.960 -> 51:38.560] back and it's like I want to work hard and stuff like that and I think it is sometimes
[51:38.560 -> 51:40.400] it is you just got to give it some time.
[51:40.400 -> 51:41.400] Where did it go though?
[51:41.400 -> 51:45.160] Have you worked out where that bug went when you were suddenly
[51:45.160 -> 51:46.160] the USA Cup champion?
[51:46.160 -> 51:53.600] I think it was just that I wanted to enjoy what I'd achieved, I think, for a longer period
[51:53.600 -> 52:03.060] of time than I was allowed. Because I won, I had two weeks off, and then I was playing
[52:03.060 -> 52:06.640] two tournaments, then three weeks off, then three tournaments, and
[52:06.640 -> 52:10.560] like the season's still going, you know, the season doesn't stop for you, it's like, I
[52:10.560 -> 52:13.680] still had to compete and there was still a lot to play for.
[52:13.680 -> 52:18.520] But even though there's a lot to play for, it was like hard to get up for it almost,
[52:18.520 -> 52:21.760] because it was like, well, now I've done what I needed, I want to just chill.
[52:21.760 -> 52:23.960] How old were you at the time, 27?
[52:23.960 -> 52:24.960] 27.
[52:24.960 -> 52:28.360] You were mentioned at the start, you play a losing sport, you know you've been on tour for a
[52:28.360 -> 52:35.280] number of years and you won two major competitions, like it could be two or three years till you
[52:35.280 -> 52:36.280] get that feeling again.
[52:36.280 -> 52:39.560] So what's the motivation?
[52:39.560 -> 52:41.160] What keeps you coming back for more?
[52:41.160 -> 52:42.600] To win every week, yeah.
[52:42.600 -> 52:46.880] I enjoy finding any way that I can get better.
[52:46.880 -> 52:51.840] Listening to podcasts, trying to, you know, reading books, speaking to other people in
[52:51.840 -> 52:57.400] the industry, outside the industry. For me, like, it's enjoyable to try and get better.
[52:57.400 -> 53:01.640] And particularly at my age, I feel like I've got still plenty of years left of my best
[53:01.640 -> 53:10.080] golf and that's where I want to, you know, I want to get to. I want to get to world number one and win more majors and I can't just coast for the
[53:10.080 -> 53:11.080] next few years.
[53:11.080 -> 53:13.440] I feel like I've got to excel still.
[53:13.440 -> 53:16.360] Would you answer this question with total honesty, right?
[53:16.360 -> 53:19.600] Bearing in mind we've already established that you're one of the most humble guests
[53:19.600 -> 53:22.040] we've ever had on the podcast, right?
[53:22.040 -> 53:26.960] If 100 is the very greatest you can ever be and zero is the day
[53:26.960 -> 53:31.880] you were when you first picked up a golf club, where are you?
[53:31.880 -> 53:38.480] 75 probably, 80. I still feel like there's plenty in the tank.
[53:38.480 -> 53:39.480] Is that exciting?
[53:39.480 -> 53:45.120] Yeah, yeah it is. I want to have a really, really big off season this year.
[53:47.360 -> 53:52.400] And I feel this year has been a weird year for me. I don't feel like it's been my best, but
[53:52.400 -> 53:57.120] I feel like I've made strides in certain areas. And I feel like if I can kind of match those
[53:57.120 -> 54:06.800] strides, those gains with where I was in like May, June 2022, then that's like, you know,
[54:06.800 -> 54:09.640] that's almost the finished product really,
[54:09.640 -> 54:11.640] so just gonna take time.
[54:12.500 -> 54:14.080] But you also got a text message, didn't you,
[54:14.080 -> 54:16.800] after winning the Open from probably
[54:16.800 -> 54:18.920] one of the greatest sportsmen of all time.
[54:18.920 -> 54:19.760] Yeah.
[54:19.760 -> 54:22.160] Would you tell us who that was, but equally,
[54:22.160 -> 54:24.480] did you get the chance to follow up and ask them
[54:24.480 -> 54:26.200] how they'd sustained success? Yeah, the text was, but equally, did you get the chance to follow up and ask them how they'd sustained success?
[54:26.200 -> 54:30.740] Yeah, the text was from Michael Jordan, which made me laugh because he actually texted me
[54:30.740 -> 54:36.080] again after I won earlier this year, and it was a different number and I replied, oh,
[54:36.080 -> 54:38.040] you know, thank you very much, sorry, who's this?
[54:38.040 -> 54:40.640] And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, he's like, oh, sorry, it's MJ.
[54:40.640 -> 54:46.460] I was like, oh my God, I feel so embarrassed you know. I've not spent a lot of time with
[54:46.460 -> 54:52.100] him but I'm a member of his club in Florida and the guy that coaches him a little bit
[54:52.100 -> 54:57.900] he's learned a lot off Michael and he shared some of that with me. I've not like I say
[54:57.900 -> 55:02.480] I've not spent a lot of time with him but his big thing was practicing with intensity
[55:02.480 -> 55:06.160] it's like every shot matters. And that's one thing
[55:06.160 -> 55:11.880] that we've tried to add in to practice away from tournaments. It's hard at tournaments
[55:11.880 -> 55:17.280] because you've only really got the range and where I'm a member there's loads of different
[55:17.280 -> 55:21.440] you know you can hit a shot here and then walk over there and hit a shot to a different
[55:21.440 -> 55:25.940] green and it just we can create the intensity by having
[55:25.940 -> 55:28.260] it if you don't complete it, start again.
[55:28.260 -> 55:30.060] If you don't complete it, start again.
[55:30.060 -> 55:36.300] And it's things like that that I think was so big for him and that's what I've been told
[55:36.300 -> 55:41.040] by the coach at the Grove, Darren, Darren May.
[55:41.040 -> 55:46.160] And I think that is a fantastic lesson in that you know every shot has an intention
[55:46.160 -> 55:51.480] and it's intense and there's a you know there's a consequence for it and I think it's hard
[55:51.480 -> 55:55.320] to have that in golf because it's easy to just drag another ball out and try again.
[55:55.320 -> 56:00.160] But you know if you've only got five shots right you got five shots you need to hit it
[56:00.160 -> 56:05.000] here the first one if you don't you're done you know and it's having
[56:05.000 -> 56:09.720] those things like a task that has a consequence it just I feel like you then
[56:09.720 -> 56:13.560] have that intensity and that's more like on on the golf course. I love that I
[56:13.560 -> 56:17.320] remember reading something similar about Marcello Lippi the Italian football
[56:17.320 -> 56:22.040] coach when matches went to penalty shootouts he'd ask each player
[56:22.040 -> 56:28.160] what's your intention and they'd have to say something like, it's going to go top right hand corner.
[56:28.160 -> 56:32.360] So there's no room for error then, your technique's good enough, you know where you're going,
[56:32.360 -> 56:33.360] just do it.
[56:33.360 -> 56:38.280] But that one question forced them to have an intentionality and then just go out there
[56:38.280 -> 56:39.640] and execute.
[56:39.640 -> 56:45.640] So do you do that on practice where you go, this is going to go 150 yards just to the right?
[56:46.000 -> 56:47.400] Yeah, that's what we'll try to do.
[56:47.760 -> 56:53.680] Um, I still, I feel sometimes I get lazy with that and that's like, you know, Steve
[56:53.680 -> 56:57.760] tends to pull me a lot on that, you know, not having the same behaviors as I do on the
[56:57.760 -> 56:58.440] golf course.
[56:58.440 -> 57:03.760] And it's one of those things that if we can create those behaviors in practice with the
[57:03.760 -> 57:05.600] intensity, like you say,
[57:05.600 -> 57:09.560] saying okay this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm going to do, then when you get
[57:09.560 -> 57:12.080] on the golf course it's a piece of cake.
[57:12.080 -> 57:16.600] The aim of the game that me and Steve talk about is always making practice way harder
[57:16.600 -> 57:18.280] than tournament play.
[57:18.280 -> 57:19.680] So how do you do that then?
[57:19.680 -> 57:24.200] I mean there's a famous story of Tiger Woods, his dad shouting abuse at him, key moments
[57:24.200 -> 57:25.840] for him. How do you replicate it?
[57:25.840 -> 57:26.840] Yeah, that's obviously a big thing.
[57:26.840 -> 57:33.200] I mean, I'm very fortunate, again, the Grove facility is second to none, there's all sorts
[57:33.200 -> 57:37.720] of different things you can do, but you know, we might do a challenge of, right, okay, you've
[57:37.720 -> 57:42.200] got to hit it within this zone, you've got to hit a shot within this zone, then you go
[57:42.200 -> 57:48.240] and walk 20 yards over there to the green and you got a hole to putt from 10 feet and then you go back, you hit another one
[57:48.240 -> 57:49.340] in the zone.
[57:49.340 -> 57:55.080] How many can you do in a row or what's the proximity of those shots and you know you
[57:55.080 -> 57:59.600] keep a record of that, right, okay, this time can we beat that whilst doing it because like
[57:59.600 -> 58:05.780] I keep saying you know you're just not hitting seven iron after seven iron after seven iron.
[58:05.780 -> 58:12.040] Every single shot is different and you need to have that pressure of it feels shit when
[58:12.040 -> 58:15.420] you don't complete the challenge.
[58:15.420 -> 58:21.180] We do a great one with the driver that I don't want to give away, but it's something that
[58:21.180 -> 58:23.260] I was really struggling.
[58:23.260 -> 58:30.520] I didn't really look into it as much as I probably should have but two, three months ago I was struggling to complete it and I
[58:30.520 -> 58:36.000] knew I wasn't driving it very well and I did struggle to complete it and then Steve came
[58:36.000 -> 58:41.360] over to see me last week in New Jersey and I did it in three attempts like it was just
[58:41.360 -> 58:45.680] bang, bang, bang and I'd done it and I was like yeah that's
[58:45.680 -> 58:50.640] a really good sign obviously for me because I feel like that's a long way different from
[58:50.640 -> 58:51.640] where I was two months ago.
[58:51.640 -> 58:57.440] So one of our favorite questions we like asking guests is if you were to divide up your golf
[58:57.440 -> 59:02.520] game between physical, so like the technical stuff that you've just described, and the
[59:02.520 -> 59:06.920] mental side of it, what proportionality would you offer to each?
[59:07.560 -> 59:10.040] Everyone's like, oh, golf's 99% mental.
[59:10.720 -> 59:14.160] I would, I would say like 70 physical, 30 mental.
[59:14.440 -> 59:16.160] It doesn't matter how good you are mentally.
[59:16.160 -> 59:18.920] If you, if you can't hit the ball straight, you know, it doesn't matter.
[59:19.120 -> 59:23.120] But in those final moments coming down the last five, six
[59:23.120 -> 59:25.280] holes, when the pressure's on.
[59:25.280 -> 59:28.360] You need to be strong mentally not to kind of just wilt.
[59:28.360 -> 59:35.160] And before we move to our quickfire questions, I'd like to finish there about mental strength
[59:35.160 -> 59:40.760] in the moment that matters because we've spoken for the last hour and a bit about preparation
[59:40.760 -> 59:41.760] to play golf, right?
[59:41.760 -> 59:50.760] There's one thing that you can't recreate anywhere and that is the pressure of winning a tournament with a shot, right? And I appreciate again
[59:50.760 -> 59:56.440] you don't want to reveal everything, but I would love it if you would share with us what
[59:56.440 -> 01:00:06.060] you were going through mentally when you played those final few shots to win the US Open? Yeah I think during that time once I got to
[01:00:06.060 -> 01:00:14.700] about 14 I was obviously knew I was back in it 15 made a birdie was one clear
[01:00:14.700 -> 01:00:22.120] with two to play and I remember thinking to myself you know I was playing really
[01:00:22.120 -> 01:00:27.000] really well like I just it was the best I've ever played, you know, there's no doubt about that.
[01:00:27.000 -> 01:00:34.120] Like under the circumstances and I was just hitting exactly where I wanted.
[01:00:34.120 -> 01:00:37.200] Everything about it was just like perfect really.
[01:00:37.200 -> 01:00:41.840] But I didn't feel nervous, like I felt more nervous two weeks ago in Switzerland than
[01:00:41.840 -> 01:00:43.880] I did when I was at the US Open.
[01:00:43.880 -> 01:00:47.480] And there's no, there's absolutely no doubt about that.
[01:00:47.480 -> 01:00:54.200] And I just don't know if, because in Switzerland I was probably expected to win, or some of
[01:00:54.200 -> 01:00:58.120] these other tournaments I've played where I've been uncontested, I expected to do well.
[01:00:58.120 -> 01:01:01.040] The US Open I probably wasn't really expected to win.
[01:01:01.040 -> 01:01:10.240] I'd obviously played well and had success at that course before, but I still feel like that Wills Altoros is American, it's an American crowd, it's kind of like
[01:01:10.240 -> 01:01:15.680] I was almost a bit the underdog and I was just so focused and committed on how well
[01:01:15.680 -> 01:01:20.040] I was playing. I just think it was kind of, it just felt as cliche as it is, like I was
[01:01:20.040 -> 01:01:25.000] just like in the zone. And I think I look back to that a lot
[01:01:25.000 -> 01:01:28.160] and compare it to some of my poorer rounds.
[01:01:28.160 -> 01:01:30.120] And every single shot that we had,
[01:01:30.120 -> 01:01:31.000] I go through the round,
[01:01:31.000 -> 01:01:33.640] I've been through the round multiple, multiple times.
[01:01:33.640 -> 01:01:36.360] Every single one was like 100% commitment.
[01:01:36.360 -> 01:01:39.360] There was doubt on one shot,
[01:01:39.360 -> 01:01:40.360] and that was the 10th hole,
[01:01:40.360 -> 01:01:42.000] and I hit a really poor shot.
[01:01:42.000 -> 01:01:44.400] Outside of that, there was no doubt
[01:01:44.400 -> 01:01:45.280] on any single shot
[01:01:45.280 -> 01:01:46.480] I hit all day.
[01:01:46.480 -> 01:01:52.400] And I think back to it's very rare I feel like you get rounds that happen like that
[01:01:52.400 -> 01:01:55.960] because they would you know we'd have a yardage or it's this club is perfect and it's just
[01:01:55.960 -> 01:01:57.040] like bang.
[01:01:57.040 -> 01:02:02.760] I think that was the big difference that day and coming down the final stretch it was like
[01:02:02.760 -> 01:02:03.760] oh I just go bang.
[01:02:03.760 -> 01:02:07.040] It was just very like, see it, do it.
[01:02:07.040 -> 01:02:11.720] And did you allow your brain to go to the young Matt, be driven course to course with
[01:02:11.720 -> 01:02:12.720] his dad?
[01:02:12.720 -> 01:02:16.280] Yes, yes, a hundred percent, yeah.
[01:02:16.280 -> 01:02:22.000] The night before, I remember speaking to Mike and I was like, I almost, I was in contention
[01:02:22.000 -> 01:02:27.120] with the USPGA earlier in the year in May and I remember just going
[01:02:27.120 -> 01:02:31.520] to bed thinking, oh you know I could win the USPGA tomorrow, like a major championship,
[01:02:31.520 -> 01:02:36.720] it was huge and I just didn't play very well and I was playing at 100 miles an hour and
[01:02:36.720 -> 01:02:39.200] I look back I was playing too fast and all that.
[01:02:39.200 -> 01:02:46.680] And then I called Mike Saturday night before US Open final, the final round, and he was basically
[01:02:46.680 -> 01:02:49.440] saying to me, you know, you just got to accept that you think you can win.
[01:02:49.440 -> 01:02:51.240] I was like, that's great, that's absolutely fantastic.
[01:02:51.240 -> 01:02:55.960] It was never like, oh, but what if I have a bad round, and it was the other way around.
[01:02:55.960 -> 01:03:00.240] I was almost getting too, like, I can win, you know, I can totally win this.
[01:03:00.240 -> 01:03:04.160] You got to accept it, but then you just got to go out there and just, you know, play your
[01:03:04.160 -> 01:03:09.200] game and see what happens. And, you know, that's what I felt like I did very, very well.
[01:03:09.200 -> 01:03:17.480] And when you visualize a shot, do you see it as almost like watching it on a screen
[01:03:17.480 -> 01:03:21.600] so it's external to you or do you see it from your own perspective?
[01:03:21.600 -> 01:03:27.320] No, I mean, I see it like, I justise the ball kind of going up as if it's like
[01:03:27.320 -> 01:03:28.320] on a PlayStation game.
[01:03:28.320 -> 01:03:29.320] Do you?
[01:03:29.320 -> 01:03:32.280] You know, I just like with a trail behind, you know, like you see on the TV, that's how
[01:03:32.280 -> 01:03:34.680] I see it going up and yeah.
[01:03:34.680 -> 01:03:37.360] So on that last shot, what was that like?
[01:03:37.360 -> 01:03:43.320] Yeah, I mean on the last shot it was out of the bunker and I've told the story a lot but
[01:03:43.320 -> 01:03:45.280] I was terrible out of the fairway bunkers all year and that was the bunker and I've told the story a lot but I was terrible out of the fairway
[01:03:45.280 -> 01:03:49.900] bunkers all year and that was the shot that I had and I hit the shot.
[01:03:49.900 -> 01:03:55.380] And I'll just never forget because where we were aiming was like well away from where
[01:03:55.380 -> 01:04:04.060] the ball actually ended up and I just, I tried to hit the shot where I was, where I was aiming
[01:04:04.060 -> 01:04:05.000] and I just remember looking up and it was like going towards the shot where I was where I was aiming and I just remember looking up
[01:04:05.000 -> 01:04:09.240] and it was like going towards the flag and I was just like oh my god this is like thank
[01:04:09.240 -> 01:04:15.280] god like I've hit such a good shot there and I kind of played it so quick almost to be
[01:04:15.280 -> 01:04:19.840] like well I'm ready let's just you know just get on with it rather than kind of like oh
[01:04:19.840 -> 01:04:27.600] but what if this and what if that and again it goes back to the commitment it's like bang bang bang and it was obviously great.
[01:04:27.600 -> 01:04:28.600] Obviously.
[01:04:28.600 -> 01:04:32.760] We've reached the point of our quick fire questions Matt.
[01:04:32.760 -> 01:04:37.720] First one is what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you
[01:04:37.720 -> 01:04:39.800] should buy into?
[01:04:39.800 -> 01:04:45.120] Work hard, be humble down to earth and be honest.
[01:04:45.120 -> 01:04:51.440] I don't want anyone beating around the bush or just being a yes person really.
[01:04:51.440 -> 01:04:54.120] What advice would you give to a teenage man?
[01:04:54.120 -> 01:04:57.000] Just work hard, work smart.
[01:04:57.000 -> 01:05:01.480] I think that work hard has always been a big thing for me, like I've always wanted to make
[01:05:01.480 -> 01:05:11.040] sure that I'm working hard but I think working smart is actually what I've learned more now. Don't necessarily need to hit 500 balls a day, it
[01:05:11.040 -> 01:05:16.400] might be 200 but with much better intensity you're probably going to get more out of it
[01:05:16.400 -> 01:05:19.840] so probably yeah work smart.
[01:05:19.840 -> 01:05:24.900] Would you recommend a book or a podcast or something that you love listening to that
[01:05:24.900 -> 01:05:25.360] helps you?
[01:05:25.360 -> 01:05:31.800] Obviously love listening to you, you boys, the high performance podcast is great but
[01:05:31.800 -> 01:05:38.960] for me the the Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters that was, like I say, I'm a C-minor student
[01:05:38.960 -> 01:05:45.520] according to my coach but I think it just is very good at simplifying how the mind works.
[01:05:45.520 -> 01:05:49.800] What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why?
[01:05:49.800 -> 01:05:54.640] I'd probably just say, you know, my parents just, you know, telling me to work hard when
[01:05:54.640 -> 01:05:57.160] I was younger.
[01:05:57.160 -> 01:06:01.400] Never been pushy about it, just like, you know, if you do want to get anywhere, like,
[01:06:01.400 -> 01:06:04.520] you've got to work for it, you can't just turn up and hope for the best.
[01:06:04.520 -> 01:06:05.800] I would probably say that.
[01:06:05.800 -> 01:06:10.920] If you could go back to one moment in your life, what would be the moment and why?
[01:06:10.920 -> 01:06:16.760] Right after I've hit the shot on 18 at the US Open, yeah, I'd love to relive that whole
[01:06:16.760 -> 01:06:20.120] day again, yeah that would be very, very special.
[01:06:20.120 -> 01:06:34.620] What's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness? Biggest strength I think is always trying to pursue greatness and trying to get better.
[01:06:34.620 -> 01:06:40.440] Just every day I'm probably thinking about something to try and help me.
[01:06:40.440 -> 01:06:44.760] How can I recover better, play better, think better, anything really.
[01:06:44.760 -> 01:06:48.520] I think that's like my biggest strength is like my drive.
[01:06:48.520 -> 01:06:54.720] I think my biggest weakness is probably I get in my own way, particularly on the golf
[01:06:54.720 -> 01:06:58.480] course from maybe a mental side.
[01:06:58.480 -> 01:07:02.200] You know, getting too worked up about I'm not playing well, even off the golf course,
[01:07:02.200 -> 01:07:05.460] you know, if I've not had a good week or whatever or not practiced well.
[01:07:05.460 -> 01:07:08.800] Yeah, I think sometimes I can get my own way.
[01:07:08.800 -> 01:07:15.040] And finally, your one golden rule for people that have listened to this podcast about living
[01:07:15.040 -> 01:07:16.040] a high-performance life.
[01:07:16.040 -> 01:07:20.840] Yeah, I've said it a lot already, but it would be working hard or working smart.
[01:07:20.840 -> 01:07:25.080] I just think if you don't push yourself to try and get better, you know,
[01:07:25.080 -> 01:07:29.480] I don't think you're ever going to get to where you want.
[01:07:29.480 -> 01:07:32.360] So I would have to say that.
[01:07:32.360 -> 01:07:33.360] Thank you.
[01:07:33.360 -> 01:07:34.360] Thanks, guys.
[01:07:34.360 -> 01:07:35.360] Thanks, Mark.
[01:07:35.360 -> 01:07:36.360] Privilege.
[01:07:36.360 -> 01:07:37.360] Damien.
[01:07:37.360 -> 01:07:38.360] Jake.
[01:07:38.360 -> 01:07:40.800] There's so much to pick out of that.
[01:07:40.800 -> 01:07:45.360] I really like the fact that he doesn't just accept golf for the way it
[01:07:45.360 -> 01:07:50.000] is and preparation and training for the way it is. He is looking all the time for those
[01:07:50.000 -> 01:07:53.600] little things that he can do differently to get an edge over his rivals and I think that
[01:07:53.600 -> 01:07:57.760] is fantastic. Yeah, do you remember when we interviewed Sean Wayne way back in the start
[01:07:57.760 -> 01:08:03.040] of this whole series and he had that tattoo on his arm, that Kaizen, that Japanese term
[01:08:03.040 -> 01:08:05.120] about continuous improvement, was
[01:08:05.120 -> 01:08:08.520] at the heart of it. Matt's the living embodiment of that as a golfer.
[01:08:08.520 -> 01:08:12.640] And I love his flexibility as well, the way that he looks at things in sort of in very
[01:08:12.640 -> 01:08:17.920] different ways and tries to find his own answer. You know, he doesn't seem to me as the kind
[01:08:17.920 -> 01:08:22.160] of person who is going around, well he admitted it, saying to other players, how do you do
[01:08:22.160 -> 01:08:28.560] this or how do you solve that, he's looking for those answers himself. But also he's understood the power of the team and
[01:08:28.560 -> 01:08:33.000] getting the right people around him and I think that's why he is where he is.
[01:08:33.000 -> 01:08:38.520] Yeah, you know, it's who's in your locker room are those key moments for people that,
[01:08:38.520 -> 01:08:45.840] like you said, humility, hard work and the willingness to try new things were the characteristics that he's recruiting
[01:08:45.840 -> 01:08:50.360] for and they're the hallmarks of what he's done in his whole career.
[01:08:50.360 -> 01:08:54.840] We use that phrase with him in the conversation that good is often the enemy of great, that
[01:08:54.840 -> 01:09:00.240] you're making good money, you're on the tour, you're doing well.
[01:09:00.240 -> 01:09:04.920] The easy thing there is to get complacent and almost just let things take over but his
[01:09:04.920 -> 01:09:08.800] humility and willingness to keep looking for that edge has meant that he was prepared
[01:09:08.800 -> 01:09:14.160] to break things and look for new ideas and that takes courage in its own right for any of us
[01:09:14.160 -> 01:09:18.240] to be willing to throw it up in the air and see what comes down as a consequence.
[01:09:18.240 -> 01:09:23.680] And he has the humility, he's so humble from the upbringing his parents clearly instilled in him
[01:09:23.680 -> 01:09:26.000] and I feel really excited about his future.
[01:09:26.000 -> 01:09:28.800] He's at the start almost of his journey I feel.
[01:09:28.800 -> 01:09:34.160] Yeah, yeah I think that's a really interesting point that again this idea of being willing
[01:09:34.160 -> 01:09:39.440] to go back and do the work you know and I think that what was interesting about Matt
[01:09:39.440 -> 01:09:43.000] is something that we don't, I don't think we talk about it enough on the podcast is
[01:09:43.000 -> 01:09:45.460] the power of patience.
[01:09:45.460 -> 01:09:49.100] Sometimes just accepting things have to run its course and it's going to take a while.
[01:09:49.100 -> 01:09:54.380] I think we all want the idea of like the get rich quick, be successful overnight.
[01:09:54.380 -> 01:09:57.820] We want to take a change and see that it's implemented right away.
[01:09:57.820 -> 01:10:01.660] And I think one of the things that he was good at is saying you just need to allow it
[01:10:01.660 -> 01:10:04.100] to percolate to sometimes have time.
[01:10:04.100 -> 01:10:05.200] And that was an interesting
[01:10:05.200 -> 01:10:10.320] observation about he wishes he'd have taken more time after that victory before coming back
[01:10:10.880 -> 01:10:15.440] refreshed a minute ago again. I really enjoyed that chat thanks mate. Yeah it was brilliant
[01:10:15.440 -> 01:10:21.040] real privilege. I really enjoyed that conversation with Matt you could probably tell the way that
[01:10:21.040 -> 01:10:25.240] Damien and I reflected on it. I would love you to do just one thing for us.
[01:10:25.240 -> 01:10:27.040] Please subscribe to High Performance.
[01:10:27.040 -> 01:10:29.080] Honestly, it changes the game for us.
[01:10:29.080 -> 01:10:31.360] You can also watch on YouTube as well.
[01:10:31.360 -> 01:10:35.480] But I think the biggest thing really is just to carry on taking the learnings from this
[01:10:35.480 -> 01:10:36.480] stuff.
[01:10:36.480 -> 01:10:40.320] Keep on coming to these conversations with an open mind.
[01:10:40.320 -> 01:10:45.280] Lead with empathy, lead with understanding, and just every single day, make sure that
[01:10:45.280 -> 01:10:48.840] your intention is right, as we've just heard from Matt Fitzpatrick.
[01:10:48.840 -> 01:10:53.360] Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you for another episode of High Performance
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