Mark Manson on why we should start saying no - Handpicked

Returning to the episode with author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, Mark Manson, Jake reflects on the lessons he still thinks about daily.

Mark suggested parents should not be telling their children they can do anything, as it may set them up for a fall in the future. Telling them they’re going to be brilliant will ensure they don’t build their resilience muscle. Jake shares with Damian how after this episode he now talks to his children differently.

They also reflect on why comparison is killer and Mark’s experience writing Will Smith’s book. And they discuss how saying no makes you a more attractive prospect.

Listen to the full episode with Mark: https://pod.fo/e/15bfe7

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In this episode, Jake revisits the conversation with Mark Manson, author of "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck," to reflect on lessons that still resonate with him.

1. **Praising Effort, Not Identity**: Mark emphasizes praising children for their effort rather than their innate abilities. This helps build resilience and teaches them that success comes from hard work and dedication, not just natural talent. Jake shares how he has changed his approach with his own children, focusing on commending their efforts and specific actions rather than their overall abilities.

2. **The Trap of Comparison**: Mark highlights the detrimental impact of comparing oneself to others, leading to feelings of inadequacy and dissatisfaction. He shares the example of Dave Mustaine, the former lead guitarist of Metallica, who despite achieving immense success with his band Megadeth, still felt like a failure due to comparisons with Metallica's greater achievements. Jake emphasizes the importance of avoiding comparisons and finding one's own path to success and fulfillment.

3. **The Freedom of Saying No**: Mark discusses the power of saying no and setting boundaries. He explains that being willing to let go of certain commitments or opportunities can paradoxically make one more attractive and respected. Jake acknowledges his struggle with saying no due to fear of missing out or disappointing others. He recognizes the need to establish boundaries and prioritize what truly matters, such as spending time with his children.

The episode concludes with a reminder that Jake and Damien are also on a journey of learning and implementing these lessons in their own lives. They encourage listeners to explore the full episode with Mark Manson and delve into the 200+ episodes of the High Performance Podcast, each offering valuable insights and lessons for personal and professional growth.

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[02:33.880 -> 02:50.400] Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Hey everyone, it's Jake and Damien here and this is Handpicked, where we go back into
[02:50.400 -> 02:54.800] the archives of the High Performance Podcast and pick out some of our most interesting
[02:54.800 -> 02:58.920] guests and look at the most interesting parts of that conversation.
[02:58.920 -> 03:03.000] So this time Jake, it's you doing the heavy lifting here, so who have you chosen for us?
[03:03.000 -> 03:08.240] I've gone back to our episode with Mark Manson, the author who wrote the subtle art of not
[03:08.240 -> 03:14.240] giving a F-U-C-K, and I just wanted to pick out two or three things in that conversation
[03:14.240 -> 03:15.840] with him that I still think about now.
[03:15.840 -> 03:17.840] Go on, so what's the first one?
[03:17.840 -> 03:21.380] So the first one is especially relevant to you and I as parents, right, and I think all
[03:21.380 -> 03:28.580] parents fall into this trap of praising our children constantly, telling them they're special, telling them that they're unique, telling
[03:28.580 -> 03:33.660] them that they can do anything they want in this world. Mark has a different viewpoint.
[03:33.660 -> 03:35.620] Should we listen to what he said? Go on.
[03:35.620 -> 03:38.360] Mark Willis Like growing up, I was told I was special
[03:38.360 -> 03:47.240] and unique and extraordinary and blah, blah, blah. And I hadn't done a fucking thing. You know, so it's.
[03:47.240 -> 03:49.920] I think it's.
[03:49.920 -> 03:51.960] And look, I've actually, you know, there is.
[03:51.960 -> 03:57.000] There is some research I have seen on this, and I believe what it says is that generally
[03:57.000 -> 03:58.400] speaking.
[03:58.400 -> 04:05.000] You want to compliment your kids for effort, not for necessarily like who they are.
[04:05.320 -> 04:08.120] Like, so you don't wanna, you don't wanna tell them like,
[04:08.120 -> 04:09.680] oh, you're so smart, you're so talented,
[04:09.680 -> 04:12.960] you're so brilliant before they've done anything.
[04:12.960 -> 04:15.680] You want them to do something and then say,
[04:15.680 -> 04:18.680] you were so brilliant at that.
[04:18.680 -> 04:20.600] You were so talented at that.
[04:22.080 -> 04:25.840] So it's almost like you praise the, the action, not their identity.
[04:28.160 -> 04:32.800] So there's Mark really Damien saying, and I think it's absolutely brilliant advice that you should
[04:32.800 -> 04:38.960] praise someone's effort, not someone's sort of natural ability. And I can understand that,
[04:38.960 -> 04:42.800] you know, it's so easy to want to tell your children and even your friends sometimes,
[04:42.800 -> 04:46.840] and those around you that you love that they can do anything and they can be anything that they want.
[04:46.840 -> 04:50.840] And I think especially when you're talking to young minds, you know, I've got a 10 and
[04:50.840 -> 04:52.080] eight year old.
[04:52.080 -> 04:55.600] I think if you just tell them that they're great without reminding them that they're
[04:55.600 -> 05:00.400] great for a reason or that they can do great things, I think you are actually setting them
[05:00.400 -> 05:02.040] up for a fall.
[05:02.040 -> 05:06.860] So often we speak on this podcast about resilience and the importance of resilience. You know Bear Grylls was the guy that said
[05:06.860 -> 05:10.220] help your children to build their resilient muscle so when they leave
[05:10.220 -> 05:14.660] school they can deal with knockbacks and setbacks. Well telling them that they are
[05:14.660 -> 05:18.620] just going to be brilliant almost is the same as removing their resilience
[05:18.620 -> 05:23.520] because they then assume great whatever I do regardless of effort or hard work
[05:23.520 -> 05:26.180] or commitment or consistency
[05:26.180 -> 05:31.580] or determination it'll all be fine because I'm naturally great it's really
[05:31.580 -> 05:34.700] unhealthy and actually they need to understand from a young age that the
[05:34.700 -> 05:39.020] more you put in the more you get out I think it's really important that we let
[05:39.020 -> 05:43.860] people know that we're learning as much as the listener on this so what have you
[05:43.860 -> 05:48.240] done differently then on the back of Mark's comment with Seb and Flo?
[05:48.240 -> 05:49.440] Very, very simple.
[05:49.440 -> 05:53.600] Point out why things have gone well for them when they have gone well.
[05:53.600 -> 05:57.760] So Seb just started playing football in a football team this first season
[05:57.760 -> 06:01.960] and really struggled for the first few games because he just had never played football before.
[06:01.960 -> 06:07.000] So the sort of the stuff you take for granted like the natural positioning, talking on the pitch, you know, being in the
[06:07.000 -> 06:11.000] being in a place to find the ball. He was really hiding. He was always making sure there
[06:11.000 -> 06:14.640] was someone between him and the football so he didn't have to get the football. And it
[06:14.640 -> 06:19.080] was only after he stopped doing those things that you instead of saying, you're brilliant,
[06:19.080 -> 06:23.880] I was saying, look at what you're now doing. That is brilliant. And then I actually started
[06:23.880 -> 06:26.400] filming little clips. I don't you know know I don't want to come across like some
[06:26.400 -> 06:29.360] crazy pushy parent but it was really helpful for him because he couldn't
[06:29.360 -> 06:33.160] understand when I was saying oh you if you were in this position you definitely
[06:33.160 -> 06:36.960] would have got the football he was like confused understandably so I was giving
[06:36.960 -> 06:40.800] him more information by showing him a clip and saying you do that and see what
[06:40.800 -> 06:44.760] happens then he would do that and remarkably he got the ball and good
[06:44.760 -> 06:45.320] things happen.
[06:45.320 -> 06:47.800] It's the same with Florence and she plays a lot of hockey.
[06:47.800 -> 06:49.560] She does a lot of dancing.
[06:49.560 -> 06:51.760] I have to say, she is constantly in a leotard
[06:51.760 -> 06:55.440] in the kitchen, stretching, trying to do the splits,
[06:55.440 -> 06:57.160] doing her dance moves and stuff.
[06:57.160 -> 07:00.040] So then it becomes about when a good thing happens
[07:00.040 -> 07:03.040] at her dance group, pointing out the reason
[07:03.040 -> 07:07.320] why that happened is because of all those extra hours that you've put into doing the practice in the rehearsal
[07:07.320 -> 07:11.280] not going. See I told you you were naturally talented because that's the
[07:11.280 -> 07:15.760] wrong message. So what's the next message that you took from Mark's conversation
[07:15.760 -> 07:21.640] with us? The next message is about context and understanding that even when
[07:21.640 -> 07:26.540] great things happen to you, you can feel like they're not great if you
[07:26.540 -> 07:30.200] compare yourself to other people and other circumstances.
[07:30.200 -> 07:34.520] I think I should let Mark Manson tell the story.
[07:34.520 -> 07:41.220] I'm a big metal fan and Dave Mustaine is, he was the first lead guitarist of Metallica
[07:41.220 -> 07:46.560] and he actually got kicked out of Metallica and right
[07:46.560 -> 07:51.160] before Metallica recorded their first album. Now obviously that that's a
[07:51.160 -> 07:55.440] terrible thing but Dave Mustaine was super interesting in that he got very
[07:55.440 -> 07:58.640] pissed off and he said I'm gonna use this as fuel. He did all the things that
[07:58.640 -> 08:01.920] you know we all talk about that you should do when you have a setback or a
[08:01.920 -> 08:08.480] failure or whatever. He said I'm gonna going to work my ass off. I'm going to make a better band. I'm going to sell more records.
[08:08.480 -> 08:14.320] I'm going to sell more albums, do a bigger tours, et cetera, et cetera. And so he created Megadeth.
[08:15.120 -> 08:21.200] And I think to this day, he's sold 100 million records. He's done stadium tours around the world.
[08:21.200 -> 08:29.600] He's grossed hundreds of millions of dollars. He's one of the biggest rock musicians in history. The problem is the band that he was kicked
[08:29.600 -> 08:34.460] out of is a group of even bigger rock musicians in history. And so there's this fascinating
[08:34.460 -> 08:40.240] documentary I think it happened in the early 2000s where in an interview he had tears in
[08:40.240 -> 08:46.800] his eyes and he said, I still feel like a failure because I'm still the guy who got
[08:46.800 -> 08:52.080] kicked out of Metallica. It doesn't matter how many records I sell, doesn't matter how
[08:52.080 -> 08:58.240] many stadiums I play to, I'm not Metallica. They've done more, they've sold more records,
[08:58.240 -> 09:03.360] they've done bigger tours. And so I still feel like a failure. And to me, it's just such a
[09:03.360 -> 09:08.320] fascinating demonstration that the way we define success for ourselves
[09:08.320 -> 09:09.320] is so precarious.
[09:09.320 -> 09:14.600] And you have to be really, really careful because Dave Mustaine's a great example of
[09:14.600 -> 09:19.680] he defined success for himself in a way that was very helpful early in his career.
[09:19.680 -> 09:22.520] He was like, oh, those guys kicked me out of their band.
[09:22.520 -> 09:23.520] Fuck those guys.
[09:23.520 -> 09:25.520] I'm going to be bigger and better and more successful
[09:25.520 -> 09:26.340] than them.
[09:26.340 -> 09:28.640] And that helped him get started.
[09:28.640 -> 09:31.520] And it helped him sell a bunch of records and everything.
[09:32.440 -> 09:33.760] But jump ahead 20 years,
[09:33.760 -> 09:37.680] and that definition of success became a prison for him.
[09:37.680 -> 09:40.000] And it prevented him from appreciating anything
[09:40.000 -> 09:41.440] that he had accomplished,
[09:41.440 -> 09:45.400] from enjoying any of the successes that he had had. To me, it's
[09:45.400 -> 09:55.000] just a really fascinating cautionary tale of be careful how you're measuring yourself.
[09:55.000 -> 10:00.480] RG Dave Mustaine, what a brilliant story that is.
[10:00.480 -> 10:06.600] I know. And I think that when you have it to the level of Metallica and Megadeth, right?
[10:06.960 -> 10:11.800] Two incredible bands that had incredible success then it leaves you with no questions
[10:12.200 -> 10:19.080] he's talking about an elite musician and I guarantee you that there are footballers and business leaders and
[10:19.760 -> 10:23.260] Entertainers and Formula One drivers and golfers all around the world
[10:23.840 -> 10:28.020] Living in a state of unhappiness because they're seeing other people achieve more than them. Let's just
[10:28.020 -> 10:32.120] get it absolutely right once and for all. There will always be someone who is
[10:32.120 -> 10:37.780] achieving more than you are achieving. That is fine. It's about you finding your
[10:37.780 -> 10:41.120] own version of high performance and comparing your own success to other
[10:41.120 -> 10:44.740] people's is never good. I mean what I often say now and the way that that
[10:44.740 -> 10:47.400] changed my thinking is I will sometimes
[10:47.400 -> 10:51.560] see someone do something really cool and think, bloody hell, I wish I'd done that.
[10:51.560 -> 10:53.840] But then I remind myself that there's someone else somewhere in the world that I haven't
[10:53.840 -> 10:57.440] even seen doing something way cooler than the person I've just seen do something cool,
[10:57.440 -> 10:58.440] right?
[10:58.440 -> 11:03.480] So if, if we knew what everyone was doing, we would all constantly feel in a state of
[11:03.480 -> 11:05.820] underwhelm. and it's really unhealthy
[11:05.820 -> 11:06.820] for us.
[11:06.820 -> 11:09.700] RL So we've got one more example of it because
[11:09.700 -> 11:14.580] I remember when we had this conversation with Mark that you were loving it, you were buzzing
[11:14.580 -> 11:15.980] afterwards in our reflections.
[11:15.980 -> 11:19.800] JM Yes, I'll just try and work out which one
[11:19.800 -> 11:24.080] I should go with. I mean there was a great conversation we had about him being at his
[11:24.080 -> 11:29.040] most down and depressed after the biggest success of his life, which was his book. He spoke to us about
[11:29.040 -> 11:33.040] the psychological power of being at the bottom of the mountain, not the top, and the fact
[11:33.040 -> 11:37.080] that he's learned to enjoy the climb rather than the view at the top, which again is really
[11:37.080 -> 11:43.200] good for people. But I would probably go back to when we had a conversation about him writing
[11:43.200 -> 11:45.360] Will Smith's book with Will Smith.
[11:45.360 -> 11:47.200] He said he needed to take time out.
[11:47.200 -> 11:51.480] It was then a really big test for him that this incredible offer came along.
[11:51.480 -> 11:55.040] And actually, he spoke about freedom when he discussed Will Smith's book.
[11:55.040 -> 12:00.600] I'll let him explain in more detail, but you're about to hear Mark Manson explain why actually
[12:00.600 -> 12:05.060] it felt great to write someone else's book rather than his own.
[12:07.040 -> 12:09.320] I think that book was actually one of the only things
[12:09.320 -> 12:10.880] that kept me sane through that period
[12:10.880 -> 12:13.480] because it wasn't about me.
[12:13.480 -> 12:15.560] It was almost a relief to work on that book
[12:15.560 -> 12:17.680] because I didn't have to come up with the ideas.
[12:17.680 -> 12:22.080] I didn't have to go through the insecurity and self-doubt
[12:22.080 -> 12:28.660] of like, oh, people are gonna judge me for this, whatever. It's like, oh, it's him. Nobody's going to... If people think he's
[12:28.660 -> 12:36.740] an idiot for doing this, it's not my problem. So his book was a little bit of a respite
[12:36.740 -> 12:43.780] in that way. But yeah, it does take a lot of courage. And I think it does require...
[12:43.780 -> 12:45.460] There's something kind of paradoxical.
[12:45.460 -> 12:49.260] This happens not just with work, it happens in human relationships, it happens in a lot
[12:49.260 -> 12:50.260] of areas of life.
[12:50.260 -> 12:55.740] Whereas, as soon as you're willing to lose something, people want to give it to you.
[12:55.740 -> 13:00.460] People respect you more, they're more accommodating.
[13:00.460 -> 13:05.000] So it's this weird thing where as soon as you're like, you know what,
[13:05.000 -> 13:08.480] I'm willing to let this go, I'm willing to lose this,
[13:08.480 -> 13:10.460] not only do you kind of liberate yourself,
[13:10.460 -> 13:15.460] but the people who are leaning on you to perform
[13:16.480 -> 13:20.860] are often like, oh shit, I don't want to lose this guy.
[13:22.500 -> 13:24.400] Well, I remember that clip really clearly.
[13:24.400 -> 13:27.440] So what was it that resonated with you on that one, Jake?
[13:27.440 -> 13:31.440] I think it was the bit you mentioned at the end there about the fact that he didn't have
[13:31.440 -> 13:32.940] to do it.
[13:32.940 -> 13:36.160] And if you're willing to do something, inadvertently you get more.
[13:36.160 -> 13:39.160] And I'm a really bad person at this.
[13:39.160 -> 13:40.760] Like I hate letting people down.
[13:40.760 -> 13:42.440] I'm a bit like you, a real people pleaser.
[13:42.440 -> 13:44.080] I say yes to absolutely everything.
[13:44.080 -> 13:45.680] And then when I'm in the middle of doing that thing I'm thinking
[13:45.680 -> 13:49.460] why the bloody hell did I say yes to this? It's the last thing that I need and I
[13:49.460 -> 13:54.500] think I do it out of a fear of the fact that I'm self-employed. There's probably
[13:54.500 -> 13:57.700] a little underlying thing about what if the phone doesn't ring tomorrow or
[13:57.700 -> 14:01.900] therefore ring ever again so I better say yes to everything. And actually
[14:01.900 -> 14:10.840] sometimes saying no, having standards, having boundaries, having a red line for something actually doesn't make you less
[14:10.840 -> 14:14.320] attractive to someone, it makes you more attractive to someone. It means that they
[14:14.320 -> 14:17.280] come to you with a different offer or a better offer or they come back for more.
[14:17.280 -> 14:22.380] So sometimes the best thing you can say to someone is I'm too busy or I've got
[14:22.380 -> 14:25.280] too much on my plate or that doesn't work for me at the moment
[14:25.280 -> 14:30.340] But you know what keep on asking and eventually we might find the thing that I'm able to say yes to
[14:30.840 -> 14:34.000] so is that part of the reason then by this summer you
[14:34.720 -> 14:36.280] put a
[14:36.280 -> 14:41.820] Boundary in place of you were taking some definitive time off and allowing yourself to recharge
[14:42.640 -> 14:46.200] Yeah, 100% like if I allowed my brain to make the
[14:46.200 -> 14:50.520] decisions I would work 24-7 so I have to sort of not let my brain do that and
[14:50.520 -> 14:54.800] after let my heart lead which is what really matters and what actually really
[14:54.800 -> 14:59.480] matters is Florence and Sebastian. I read somewhere that really changes the game
[14:59.480 -> 15:04.880] for me which is by the time your child hits 12 years old you spent 75% of the
[15:04.880 -> 15:06.960] time you will ever spend with them.
[15:06.960 -> 15:10.360] Because you have five or six years till they leave home,
[15:10.360 -> 15:11.960] and even then they're out an awful lot more than they are
[15:11.960 -> 15:14.640] when they're a little baby, and then they're gone.
[15:14.640 -> 15:16.760] And how often do you see your parents?
[15:16.760 -> 15:18.280] Once a month, once every couple of months,
[15:18.280 -> 15:20.800] maybe once every couple of weeks, if you're lucky.
[15:20.800 -> 15:23.400] But it's nothing like the intensity of when they're little.
[15:23.400 -> 15:28.120] So the fact that Florence is gonna be 12 in a year, I've had 75% of the time I'm going to
[15:28.120 -> 15:33.000] spend with her. Kind of heartbreaking but also really good because it reminds you
[15:33.000 -> 15:38.520] to make the right decision. I've loved this Jake because I think this series of
[15:38.520 -> 15:41.980] handpick where we go back through it just reminds us of some of the key
[15:41.980 -> 15:46.160] lessons that we've been lucky enough to hear firsthand, but equally I think
[15:46.960 -> 15:51.520] It's also powerful for people listening to realize that we're on a journey as well
[15:51.520 -> 15:52.800] We've not got the answers
[15:52.800 -> 15:56.680] But we've taken the lessons and trying to implement them in our own lives
[15:56.800 -> 15:57.480] For sure
[15:57.480 -> 16:00.580] And if you've heard this little conversation and you want to hear the full episode
[16:00.760 -> 16:08.280] Just search for Mark Manson on the high Performance Podcast. And remember, there are well over 200 other episodes to choose from, and all of them will
[16:08.280 -> 16:10.280] bring some kind of value to you.
[16:10.280 -> 16:11.280] Thanks mate.
[16:11.280 -> 16:20.440] Mark Manson Thanks mate, loved it.
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[16:50.540 -> 16:52.600] Save big on the brands you love
[16:52.600 -> 16:55.480] at the Fred Meyer 5 a.m. Black Friday sale.
[16:55.480 -> 16:57.060] Shop in store on Black Friday
[16:57.060 -> 16:59.400] for 50% off socks and underwear.
[16:59.400 -> 17:02.400] Board games and card games are buy one get one free.
[17:02.400 -> 17:06.420] Save on great gifts for everyone, like TVs and appliances.
[17:06.420 -> 17:08.800] And the first 100 customers on Black Friday
[17:08.800 -> 17:10.920] will get free gift cards too.
[17:10.920 -> 17:14.080] So shop Friday, November 24th, and save big.
[17:14.080 -> 17:16.560] Doors open at 5 a.m., so get there early.
[17:16.560 -> 17:18.680] Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone.
[17:15.070 -> 17:17.130] you