Fathers Day Reflections: Raising a High Performer

To celebrate Fathers Day 2023 in the UK, Jake and Damian discuss the importance of father figures. They look back on how previous guests lives have been shaped by their dads. The two also share what Father's Day means to them now they're both dads and how their fathers have shaped and influenced their paths in life.

They discuss sacrifice, tough love and psychological safety whilst hearing from guests such as Johanna Konta, Jost Capito and Keir Starmer.

Listen to the guests mentioned here:

Sir Ian McGeechan - https://pod.fo/e/da9c4

Johanna Konta - https://pod.fo/e/df4c6

Jost Capito - https://pod.fo/e/13e9fa

Angela Ruggiero - https://pod.fo/e/fb0cb

Tom Daley - https://pod.fo/e/1760c

Sam Burgess - https://pod.fo/e/1474a8

Dylan Hartley - https://pod.fo/e/1a11b

Liz Humphrey - https://pod.fo/e/16d3c0

Keir Starmer - https://pod.fo/e/16f84a

Gary Lineker - https://pod.fo/e/13e9fa

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

**Navigating Fatherhood: Lessons from High-Profile Personalities**

In this special Father's Day episode, Jake Humphrey and Damian Lewis delve into the significance of father figures and explore how previous guests on their podcast have been shaped by their dads. They share personal anecdotes and reflect on how their own experiences as fathers have influenced their outlook on life.

**The Essence of Fatherhood**

Jake and Damian discuss the sacrifices, tough love, and psychological safety that fathers often provide. They emphasize the importance of creating a sense of trust and support for children, allowing them to thrive and reach their full potential.

**Fathers as Role Models**

The episode features insightful clips from renowned guests, including Johanna Konta, Jost Capito, Angela Ruggiero, and Sam Burgess, who share their personal experiences of fatherhood and the impact their dads had on their lives. These stories highlight the diverse approaches to parenting and the universal desire to raise successful and well-rounded individuals.

**Balancing Ambition and Support**

The discussion explores the delicate balance between pushing children to achieve their goals and providing unconditional support. Jake and Damian acknowledge that there is no one-size-fits-all approach and that every parent-child relationship is unique. They emphasize the importance of finding a parenting style that resonates with both the parent and the child.

**The Power of Unconditional Love**

Jake and Damian underscore the significance of expressing love and appreciation to fathers, both during their lifetime and beyond. They encourage listeners to cherish the memories and lessons learned from their fathers and to carry their legacy forward.

**Key Takeaways:**

* Fatherhood is a complex and rewarding journey that requires sacrifice, love, and unwavering support.
* Every parent-child relationship is unique, and there is no single formula for successful parenting.
* The best approach to parenting is one that fosters trust, safety, and a sense of unconditional love.
* It is important to express gratitude and appreciation to fathers, both during their lifetime and after they are gone.
* The lessons learned from fathers can have a profound impact on children's lives and shape their values and aspirations.

In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes delve into the significance of father figures and their profound impact on individuals' lives, particularly in the context of Father's Day in the UK. They reflect on how previous guests on their podcast have been shaped by their fathers and share their personal experiences as fathers themselves.

The discussion centers around the importance of expressing gratitude and love to father figures while they are still alive, emphasizing the need to leave nothing unsaid. They recall touching moments from guests like Keir Starmer, Gary Lineker, and others, who shared emotional stories about their relationships with their fathers.

The episode also explores the role of father figures beyond biological fathers, acknowledging the positive influence of mentors, coaches, teachers, and other individuals who have played a paternal role in people's lives. The hosts encourage listeners to recognize and appreciate the impact of these individuals and express their gratitude for their contributions.

Jake and Damian reflect on the importance of father-child relationships and how they evolve as individuals become parents themselves. They acknowledge the heightened emotions surrounding conversations about parents, especially in light of their own experiences as fathers.

The episode concludes with a message of encouragement for listeners to reach out to father figures in their lives and express the impact they have had. They emphasize the lasting and significant ripples of positive influence that father figures can create, extending into eternity.

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[02:12.440 -> 02:13.280] Well, hello everyone.
[02:13.280 -> 02:14.880] And welcome along to another episode
[02:14.880 -> 02:16.520] of the High Performance Podcast.
[02:16.520 -> 02:18.840] This is a Father's Day special.
[02:18.840 -> 02:21.440] Now I know that different countries around the world
[02:21.440 -> 02:23.180] celebrate Father's Day at a different time.
[02:23.180 -> 02:29.520] Here in the UK where Damien and myself live, it's on Sunday just in a couple of days time. So in
[02:29.520 -> 02:33.240] advance Damien, happy Father's Day. Happy Father's Day back to you Jake. Thanks
[02:33.240 -> 02:38.760] very much. When I say Father's Day what springs to mind for you? Some of it's a
[02:38.760 -> 02:46.880] bit looking back so and sort of being grateful for having had a brilliant dad in my own life,
[02:46.880 -> 02:51.240] and then some of it is almost feeling the weight of responsibility of being the dad
[02:51.240 -> 02:56.640] myself and trying to live up to the ideals that I have. What about you?
[02:56.640 -> 03:02.420] Part of me kind of feels like, well from a personal perspective, I feel it's a bit personally
[03:02.420 -> 03:06.880] unnecessary because I don't need thanks or recognition for doing
[03:06.880 -> 03:11.000] the thing that is the most rewarding thing in the world.
[03:11.000 -> 03:14.840] Like you know when people go, time to celebrate being a dad, I'm like every day I celebrate
[03:14.840 -> 03:18.840] the fact I've got these two amazing kids that push us to the limit, I'm sure lots of parents
[03:18.840 -> 03:21.020] will relate to that.
[03:21.020 -> 03:24.280] But they're not, you know, in terms of my dad and I know, you know, sadly your dad Brian
[03:24.280 -> 03:25.520] passed away in 2020,
[03:25.520 -> 03:26.760] and by the way, it's been lovely.
[03:26.760 -> 03:28.520] We've been on the UK tour of high performance,
[03:28.520 -> 03:30.880] and we start the show with Damien's dad
[03:30.880 -> 03:35.000] talking about boxing gyms in Manchester, where he worked.
[03:35.000 -> 03:35.840] And it's so nice, isn't it,
[03:35.840 -> 03:37.200] hearing your dad's voice reverberate
[03:37.200 -> 03:39.160] around these theaters around the country?
[03:39.160 -> 03:40.200] Yeah, it still works.
[03:40.200 -> 03:44.040] Yeah, I get choked up when I hear it.
[03:44.040 -> 03:44.880] It's amazing.
[03:44.880 -> 03:46.460] I remember, I think of, do you remember
[03:46.460 -> 03:48.400] when we had Alfie Bowen as a guest
[03:48.400 -> 03:50.300] and Alfie said that his dad had passed away
[03:50.300 -> 03:52.000] and before he does a show he says,
[03:52.000 -> 03:54.400] come on dad, help me out.
[03:54.400 -> 03:56.940] And yeah, I have a similar moment
[03:56.940 -> 03:58.520] when we do those tours and I'm nervous.
[03:58.520 -> 04:01.020] I think, come on dad, give us an hand.
[04:01.020 -> 04:02.940] So my other emotion is I'm grateful
[04:02.940 -> 04:04.820] that I've still got my dad.
[04:04.820 -> 04:05.120] Rex,
[04:06.640 -> 04:10.080] great guy, still around. I'm very lucky to have such a brilliant dad. And
[04:12.560 -> 04:19.920] my dad is the epitome of a sort of humble, understated guy, full of humility,
[04:19.920 -> 04:27.120] care for other people. And I just think, you know, you can't start this without mentioning Brian and Rex, right?
[04:27.120 -> 04:27.960] Cause quite simply.
[04:27.960 -> 04:28.780] Yeah, that's lovely.
[04:28.780 -> 04:29.800] We're not here without them.
[04:29.800 -> 04:32.760] But I think, I don't know, I've said this to you before,
[04:32.760 -> 04:35.000] and when we did the Palladium,
[04:35.000 -> 04:36.360] somebody asked us a question,
[04:36.360 -> 04:39.280] and I always think it's really important when,
[04:39.280 -> 04:40.240] you know, when I meet people and go,
[04:40.240 -> 04:41.440] well, what's Jake like?
[04:41.440 -> 04:43.940] And the example I always throw in is,
[04:45.220 -> 04:47.240] what you see is what you get.
[04:47.240 -> 04:49.160] Like you don't talk a good game, you back it up.
[04:49.160 -> 04:50.960] And the example I always use is,
[04:52.160 -> 04:54.280] linking this to Father's Day,
[04:54.280 -> 04:56.160] the fact that you always get home,
[04:56.160 -> 04:57.880] you're family, like you say,
[04:57.880 -> 05:00.440] you're family are the most important thing.
[05:00.440 -> 05:02.560] And that's not just a nice words to say,
[05:02.560 -> 05:04.360] you back it up, you get home,
[05:04.360 -> 05:10.080] even when you're driving back for the middle of the night, you're there for school pickups, drop-offs,
[05:10.080 -> 05:11.080] whenever you can be.
[05:11.080 -> 05:15.380] And I always think that's really significant that you've obviously learned that from your
[05:15.380 -> 05:16.720] own example with Rex.
[05:16.720 -> 05:18.200] Rex Phillips Yeah, absolutely.
[05:18.200 -> 05:23.840] I mean, you know, I think we're about to hear a couple of clips actually from the sacrifice
[05:23.840 -> 05:24.840] of a parent.
[05:24.840 -> 05:25.040] And I think sometimes sacrifice can be these huge, great gestures, which is what we tend to couple of clips actually from the sacrifice of a parent.
[05:25.040 -> 05:28.040] And I think sometimes sacrifice can be these huge great gestures, which is what we tend
[05:28.040 -> 05:29.760] to think of when it comes to sacrifice.
[05:29.760 -> 05:35.360] But when I think about sacrifice for my dad, it's a much smaller, much more humble gesture.
[05:35.360 -> 05:39.860] Before we both talk about maybe the sacrifices that our dads made, should we hear from one
[05:39.860 -> 05:41.360] of our former guests on High Performance?
[05:41.360 -> 05:47.240] Steve McQueen Yeah, I think one of the most powerful examples of this was when we sat down with Ian McGeehan,
[05:47.240 -> 05:50.160] who spoke around his own dad and his influence
[05:50.160 -> 05:52.680] that he gave him when he first started playing rugby
[05:52.680 -> 05:54.880] and was associating with grown men
[05:54.880 -> 05:56.080] that went out and under living,
[05:56.080 -> 05:58.240] and Ian was still a student.
[05:58.240 -> 06:00.200] There was that really moving description
[06:00.200 -> 06:02.320] when he spoke about how he came to appreciate
[06:02.320 -> 06:07.280] his dad's small but powerful sacrifice?
[06:16.160 -> 06:27.000] It sort of came from my own experience of the support I got at different stages in my life as a player and a coach. You know, a father who put five pounds in my pocket when I was still at school as an 18 year old
[06:27.000 -> 06:29.000] so that I could buy the rounds
[06:29.000 -> 06:32.000] and stand at the bar after a game
[06:32.000 -> 06:35.000] and still buy a round with everybody else.
[06:35.000 -> 06:38.000] What I didn't know until after he died
[06:38.000 -> 06:42.000] was he had to walk to work the last two days of the week.
[06:42.000 -> 06:46.000] I always have that in the back of my mind that there's a lot of people y dwy dydd diwethaf o'r wythnos. Rwy'n mynd i gyd, rwy'n cael hynny yn y chwmni o fy mhobl,
[06:46.000 -> 06:48.000] y bydd y rhai o bobl
[06:48.000 -> 06:50.000] wedi gwneud llawer o bethau
[06:50.000 -> 06:52.000] i fy nghymryd
[06:52.000 -> 06:54.000] i fy mod i
[06:54.000 -> 06:56.000] i gyd
[06:56.000 -> 06:58.000] a meddwl
[06:58.000 -> 07:00.000] yr hyn rwyf wedi'i gallu ei wneud.
[07:00.000 -> 07:02.000] Ac rwy'n credu,
[07:02.000 -> 07:04.000] gyda chwaraewyr a'r deallt
[07:04.000 -> 07:07.040] bod y gwaith tîm mwyaf yn golygu bod llawer o gwaith anodd I think, you know, with players and that understanding that the best teamwork is appreciating
[07:07.040 -> 07:10.260] that a lot of hard work goes in with a lot of other people.
[07:12.040 -> 07:14.320] So that's the former coach of the British and Irish Lions,
[07:14.320 -> 07:17.280] Sir Ian McGeehan, there talking about his dad's sacrifice.
[07:17.280 -> 07:19.120] And, you know, you speak about small things,
[07:19.120 -> 07:21.080] and I think at the time as a kid,
[07:21.080 -> 07:24.280] Ian was probably the same as me, maybe,
[07:24.280 -> 07:25.960] is that you don't even notice the sacrifice.
[07:25.960 -> 07:27.720] So I did a paper round for a long time,
[07:27.720 -> 07:31.720] till I was about 15, from the age of 12 probably.
[07:31.720 -> 07:34.480] You know, my dad got up every single morning,
[07:34.480 -> 07:36.480] every morning, and made me a cup of tea.
[07:36.480 -> 07:39.400] So while I was in our little sort of porch at home,
[07:39.400 -> 07:40.880] you know how, did you do a paper round?
[07:40.880 -> 07:41.720] No, no.
[07:41.720 -> 07:43.080] So they come in like a big lump,
[07:43.080 -> 07:44.920] but you have to sort them before you can deliver them.
[07:44.920 -> 07:47.120] Right. You don't want to be cycling around
[07:47.120 -> 07:48.560] and then trying to remember what papers
[07:48.560 -> 07:50.320] to put out your bag at which house.
[07:50.320 -> 07:51.880] So you literally would go through,
[07:51.880 -> 07:54.040] and I'd remember it, I can still remember it now,
[07:54.040 -> 07:56.480] Mirror and the Eastern Daily Press, our local paper,
[07:56.480 -> 07:58.120] was the first one, the second one was just a mirror,
[07:58.120 -> 08:00.260] the third one was a sun and an Eastern Daily Press,
[08:00.260 -> 08:02.080] fourth one was Mail and the Guardian,
[08:02.080 -> 08:04.360] fifth one was Eastern Daily Press,
[08:04.360 -> 08:05.200] and you put them in the order.
[08:05.200 -> 08:11.400] My dad, every single day without fail, would come down, make me a cup of tea, and sit with me while I sorted out my papers.
[08:11.400 -> 08:13.400] And then if the weather was bad, he'd drive me.
[08:13.400 -> 08:19.000] Brilliant. What does intrigue me about that is the house that had the Mail and the Guardian. I like them.
[08:19.000 -> 08:28.200] Nice mix. of the political spectrum but what I really love is that that for your dad is a small but
[08:28.200 -> 08:34.400] powerful sense that says you matter, I'm in your corner, I'm gonna be here with you. You know like
[08:34.400 -> 08:40.280] there's so many things that happen underneath the psychological surface of that simple gesture of
[08:40.280 -> 08:45.680] being there and making you a cup of tea that just reinforce what you're doing.
[08:45.680 -> 08:50.500] I think that's really powerful. And that reminds us of another clip that's worth
[08:50.500 -> 08:56.480] sharing. We've heard this off a theme a few times from some of our guests that
[08:56.480 -> 09:01.100] were young athletes that had to do it and Johanna Conter, the brilliant British
[09:01.100 -> 09:06.480] tennis player, told us a great example about her own dad when she was going up in Australia.
[09:08.080 -> 09:11.440] Dad was like, okay, well, if you want to, you know, become good, then we need to go train.
[09:11.440 -> 09:15.520] And I was like, okay, we'll go running every, every morning, 5am, let's go running.
[09:15.920 -> 09:19.840] And so before we, he'd go to work and then drop me off at school, we'd always then start running.
[09:20.320 -> 09:26.120] Um, and that was you driving that, that was, so your dad was nurturing it, but that was you setting that five o'clock
[09:26.120 -> 09:27.120] clock.
[09:27.120 -> 09:28.120] Yes, dad was completely on board.
[09:28.120 -> 09:29.560] I think I'm the son my dad never had.
[09:29.560 -> 09:35.200] So he was fully on board with like me being all active and loving sports.
[09:35.200 -> 09:42.320] All I remember now as an adult is those are some of the best memories of my childhood.
[09:42.320 -> 09:46.160] Just we'd always set the goal of running to the top of that golf course
[09:46.160 -> 09:53.600] for sunrise. And for me, just having that kind of father daughter time, like spending that time
[09:53.600 -> 09:59.040] with my dad, that physical exertion, beautiful kind of sunrise, like something to aim for up
[09:59.040 -> 10:02.400] there. It's honestly, it's some of my, my most fun childhood memories.
[10:04.400 -> 10:09.240] It's a great story that isn't it. And it's a reminder that there's so many different
[10:09.240 -> 10:13.000] ways to parent, you know, because we can, you can look at sacrifice and I think that's
[10:13.000 -> 10:16.320] fantastic. But we've actually had a lot of people on the podcast at times have said,
[10:16.320 -> 10:20.240] like my parents made it hard. My parents made it a challenge. And, you know, I think you
[10:20.240 -> 10:24.760] can tell from the longer conversation we had with Johanna that there was times where dad
[10:24.760 -> 10:25.680] was tough on her. Then there was times where dad was tough on her
[10:25.680 -> 10:27.240] then there was times where he gave her
[10:27.240 -> 10:28.360] that psychological safety.
[10:28.360 -> 10:30.520] He was in our corner, he was alongside her.
[10:31.480 -> 10:33.400] I'd love to hear from Jos Capito,
[10:33.400 -> 10:35.640] the former team principal of the Williams F1 team.
[10:35.640 -> 10:36.860] Because when we talk about tough love,
[10:36.860 -> 10:39.080] like that's exactly what he got.
[10:39.080 -> 10:41.400] Should we hear a short story he told us about his dad?
[10:41.400 -> 10:42.240] Yeah, I'd love this.
[10:42.240 -> 10:44.560] I mean, this was one just to preview it
[10:44.560 -> 10:51.040] where we both took a bit of an intake of breath when he told us that he sort of challenged our perception
[10:51.040 -> 10:58.000] of what a dad should do. So yeah let's hear him. When I came second my father didn't talk to me for
[10:58.000 -> 11:03.440] the week because he said you put shame on the family name. Wow. As a joke or was he being serious?
[11:03.440 -> 11:07.440] No it was serious he didn't talk to me for a week when I came second.
[11:07.440 -> 11:10.520] And I didn't have at that time the best material,
[11:10.520 -> 11:11.520] most likely so.
[11:11.520 -> 11:13.080] My father, he had the company,
[11:13.080 -> 11:15.040] he supported other race drivers.
[11:15.040 -> 11:18.480] They got new tires from him for every weekend.
[11:18.480 -> 11:21.120] I did get new tires for every second weekend,
[11:21.120 -> 11:23.480] but I was competing against them.
[11:23.480 -> 11:26.680] So I had to then to turn the tires around on the rim
[11:26.680 -> 11:29.500] for the second race that they were still good enough,
[11:29.500 -> 11:32.560] but I still, I had to beat all them.
[11:32.560 -> 11:34.800] And that was already from,
[11:34.800 -> 11:36.520] I think before I had the first race,
[11:36.520 -> 11:41.520] I had a piece on, always on my desk that said,
[11:42.600 -> 11:44.920] second is the first loser.
[11:44.920 -> 11:45.000] And for me, it is the first loser.
[11:45.000 -> 11:48.080] And for me, it's painful not winning.
[11:49.760 -> 11:51.480] What do you think about that when you hear it?
[11:51.480 -> 11:52.320] I'm a bit mixed.
[11:52.320 -> 11:54.400] I think my first answer is that
[11:54.400 -> 11:56.200] I think it's incredibly harsh.
[11:56.200 -> 11:59.360] I think the idea of giving somebody the idea
[11:59.360 -> 12:02.720] that you have to, that it's outcomes focused,
[12:02.720 -> 12:03.800] that you're only worth something
[12:03.800 -> 12:06.160] if you've come top of the list, if you're number one, if you're
[12:06.160 -> 12:12.200] if you're achieving grade A's. I think it's great to give a child the ambition and the push, but
[12:12.720 -> 12:16.400] actually to not speak to them, to be so unforgiving
[12:17.080 -> 12:24.480] with that, I think is actually quite damaging. And what was interesting, if you remember when we asked Josh whether he was
[12:25.840 -> 12:30.560] What was interesting, if you remember, when we asked Joss whether he was replicating that with his own children, he was really quick and adamant to suggest that he's doing the
[12:30.560 -> 12:32.040] complete opposite as well.
[12:32.040 -> 12:35.840] So I think he's somebody that has felt the damage of that.
[12:35.840 -> 12:38.720] And I think that's where we have to be careful on this podcast, isn't it?
[12:38.720 -> 12:43.120] You know, we talk often about survivorship bias, just because someone has experienced
[12:43.120 -> 12:48.180] something and they've done well, doesn't mean that thing was necessarily the answer for them or even the answer for
[12:48.180 -> 12:51.560] everybody else. You know, I think we can make a pretty good case that Joost has gone on
[12:51.560 -> 12:56.360] to have an amazing career in motorsport, despite what his dad did at that moment, probably
[12:56.360 -> 13:01.160] not because of it. There'll be little lessons and little learnings, but I don't think you'd
[13:01.160 -> 13:09.640] look at that and think, that's the reason why I became successful necessarily No, definitely. I think you're absolutely right. I think this is one of the things that we're not here to judge
[13:09.640 -> 13:13.320] Not here to make some sweeping generalization about just
[13:14.360 -> 13:20.280] Of his father, but I think it's important that if it challenges you to go. Well, I don't agree with that
[13:20.280 -> 13:30.280] That's great as well. So come on, but explore it, don't just be lazy and saying that's bad parenting. Explore, well why is it bad, what is it that challenges my values
[13:30.280 -> 13:36.680] and what do I say? I think one of my favourite authors Jake is an Australian psychologist
[13:36.680 -> 13:41.200] that I call Steve Biddulph, who's written some brilliant books that I used when I became
[13:41.200 -> 13:46.000] a dad. He wrote a book called Raising Boys ac yna pan ddewis i fy nhrein,
[13:46.000 -> 13:48.000] rydw i wedi yr enw'n ddysgu ei ddysgu ar gyfer
[13:48.000 -> 13:50.000] rhai pethau i'w ddewis.
[13:50.000 -> 13:52.000] Ac mae'n siarad am sut mae'r rôl
[13:52.000 -> 13:54.000] o'r fath yn seminal
[13:54.000 -> 13:56.000] yn y byd o blant ifanc.
[13:56.000 -> 13:58.000] Mae'n rhoi ffram o'r ymddiriedolaeth
[13:58.000 -> 14:00.000] o'r hyn y gallant ei gobeithio o'r gynhyrchion
[14:00.000 -> 14:02.000] yn eu bywydau.
[14:02.000 -> 14:04.000] Felly, ar gyfer ein hnrein,
[14:04.000 -> 14:06.480] efallai y gallant ei gobeithio o'r partnerau'n gallu, So for our daughters, it might be what they can expect from potential partners when they get older.
[14:06.480 -> 14:14.160] For our sons, it's about what they can expect of how you're expected to behave, show emotions and to respond to it.
[14:14.160 -> 14:17.440] So I think when we hear the examples like that one,
[14:18.120 -> 14:22.400] it allows us to think about what sort of dad do I want to be, rather than
[14:22.560 -> 14:27.220] we seek to judge other people for whether we agree with their behavior or not.
[14:27.220 -> 14:29.740] Because it's another clip where you may well listen to this
[14:29.740 -> 14:31.020] and not agree with the approach.
[14:31.020 -> 14:34.120] This is the brilliant Angela Ruggiero,
[14:34.120 -> 14:35.620] a Canadian ice hockey player
[14:35.620 -> 14:38.860] who is now a really successful business leader as well.
[14:38.860 -> 14:42.060] An amazing episode, and this was what she told us.
[14:42.060 -> 14:44.900] And again, it comes down to some tough love from her dad.
[14:45.800 -> 14:48.160] My father was really helpful, actually.
[14:48.160 -> 14:50.480] Definitely one of my mentors growing up.
[14:50.480 -> 14:52.040] And my brother made the team, by the way,
[14:52.040 -> 14:53.280] which was my younger brother.
[14:53.280 -> 14:55.600] I was like, ah, you get to go, man.
[14:55.600 -> 15:00.200] My father said, look, you can quit or sulk,
[15:00.200 -> 15:03.160] or you can work that much harder
[15:03.160 -> 15:07.200] and not just be the third or fourth best. You have to be the best
[15:07.200 -> 15:12.400] and the best by a long shot for you to make the team next year. And that's your choice, Angela.
[15:12.400 -> 15:17.920] You don't have to play hockey. And I said, no, I want to. I'm going to come back bigger, stronger,
[15:17.920 -> 15:23.920] faster. I mean, that example was the seminal moment, I think, of my life because I learned
[15:23.920 -> 15:28.680] that life isn't going to be easy and you're going to get...in this case, it was something I
[15:28.680 -> 15:35.080] couldn't control. I got cut because of, you know, gender bias, but it's again how I chose
[15:35.080 -> 15:36.760] to respond to that moment.
[15:36.760 -> 15:43.000] So, you know, there's been a lot of research done into the fact that the second child will
[15:43.000 -> 15:45.760] outperform the first because at the very beginning
[15:45.760 -> 15:49.080] of their lives, there's a big discrepancy in terms of their physical ability. So I can
[15:49.080 -> 15:54.360] see what Angela's dad's thinking at that point. He's like, you know, once you get older, you
[15:54.360 -> 15:58.700] are competing with absolutely everyone, with men, with women, with life, with anything
[15:58.700 -> 16:04.720] that gets thrown your way. So what good am I doing if, if I don't teach you that you
[16:04.720 -> 16:06.500] compete against people with greater skills than you?
[16:06.500 -> 16:08.400] Because then it forces you to look elsewhere,
[16:08.400 -> 16:11.700] to find the thing that can move you level with them
[16:11.700 -> 16:13.300] or even ahead of them.
[16:13.300 -> 16:15.900] I think it's tough, but I think I can see the value.
[16:15.900 -> 16:16.800] Yeah, definitely.
[16:16.800 -> 16:18.100] I think it goes back,
[16:18.100 -> 16:20.400] there's really interesting research on this, Jake,
[16:20.400 -> 16:23.100] from a seminal psychologist called Albert Banjora
[16:23.100 -> 16:29.000] that talks about understanding a big part of high performances where you attribute a locus
[16:29.000 -> 16:33.160] of control. If you see it as outside of you that these are circumstances
[16:33.160 -> 16:37.520] dictating it, your performance is likely to dip when things go wrong. If you see
[16:37.520 -> 16:42.240] the locus of control as within your own grasp, it's your own mentality, your
[16:42.240 -> 16:47.040] attitude, your resilience, you tend to just stick at it, which is what you're describing,
[16:47.040 -> 16:53.760] the experience of observing Flo and Seb. But there's a really interesting
[16:53.760 -> 16:57.760] interview that, if our listeners want to go back and explore, the one we did
[16:57.760 -> 17:00.400] with the brilliant Australian swimmer Ian Thorpe,
[17:00.400 -> 17:03.200] because he speaks about a similar experience that he had
[17:03.200 -> 17:06.160] as a
[17:03.480 -> 17:09.960] second child in his household that his
[17:06.160 -> 17:12.520] sister was was a promising swimmer and
[17:09.960 -> 17:14.680] he went along simply just to watch his
[17:12.520 -> 17:16.760] sister swim and then when they
[17:14.680 -> 17:18.720] realized that he had an aptitude for it he
[17:16.760 -> 17:20.200] talks about that his father would say to
[17:18.720 -> 17:22.680] him I'll get up and take your training but
[17:20.200 -> 17:24.800] you have to wake me up so I will get up
[17:22.680 -> 17:27.520] at 5 in the morning but only when you
[17:24.800 -> 17:25.800] come and get me,
[17:25.800 -> 17:27.920] it won't be me driving it.
[17:27.920 -> 17:30.280] And again, it's similar to Angela's dad's point of,
[17:30.280 -> 17:32.800] I'm giving you the locus of control.
[17:32.800 -> 17:33.880] You're in charge of this,
[17:33.880 -> 17:35.520] and I'll be there every step of the way,
[17:35.520 -> 17:38.080] similar to your dad getting up with that cup of tea,
[17:38.080 -> 17:40.480] but you're the one that has to get up.
[17:40.480 -> 17:43.440] And I think that's a really powerful lesson
[17:43.440 -> 17:44.600] for all of us to apply,
[17:44.600 -> 17:45.600] not just with those of us to apply, not just with those
[17:45.600 -> 17:49.640] of us as fathers, but in any aspects of life.
[17:49.640 -> 17:53.440] Give people that sense of control, but let them know that I'll be there with you every
[17:53.440 -> 17:54.440] step of the way.
[17:54.440 -> 17:56.760] Toby Curran Talking of being there every step of the way
[17:56.760 -> 18:01.360] and giving them that psychological safety, we were joined on the podcast by Tom Daley
[18:01.360 -> 18:06.160] who, as I'm sure many of you know, the greatest Olympic diver
[18:06.160 -> 18:11.000] this country's ever seen, sadly lost his dad to a brain tumour a few years ago, but he
[18:11.000 -> 18:18.040] spoke about what his dad did for Tom when he was young and he was competing and he was
[18:18.040 -> 18:22.160] seriously nervous going into a competition. Have a listen to this.
[18:22.160 -> 18:27.040] I remember that first competition where I was diving for the first time in a
[18:27.040 -> 18:30.520] senior competition at 10 years old, the senior national championships.
[18:31.120 -> 18:33.560] I remember we got the list of how many people are going to be in it.
[18:33.560 -> 18:34.800] And there was 18 divers.
[18:35.480 -> 18:37.800] And I was said to my dad, I'm so nervous.
[18:37.800 -> 18:39.200] Like, what if I do badly?
[18:39.200 -> 18:42.120] What if I don't dive as well as I do in training?
[18:42.440 -> 18:45.920] Uh, you know, it's the first time I'm going to dive at a senior event.
[18:45.920 -> 18:50.560] And he just said to me, Tom, there's 18 divers in this competition.
[18:50.560 -> 18:54.880] If you come last, you are going to be 18th best in the whole country.
[18:54.880 -> 18:56.960] Like how cool is that?
[18:56.960 -> 19:00.760] And when he said that to me, I was like, you're right.
[19:00.760 -> 19:02.400] 18th best in the country.
[19:02.400 -> 19:04.880] That's pretty darn good.
[19:04.880 -> 19:06.480] And so going into that
[19:06.480 -> 19:09.700] competition I remember thinking oh don't worry because even if I come 18th I'm
[19:09.700 -> 19:15.200] still 18th best in the country so that the way that he used to say things to me
[19:15.200 -> 19:20.000] just took all the pressure off like I knew whether I did well or I did badly
[19:20.000 -> 19:30.080] that it wasn't he would have just treated it exactly the same. Knowing what we know now that his dad passed away, that is a moving clip
[19:30.080 -> 19:34.520] because it's a great reminder to all parents listening to this that long
[19:34.520 -> 19:37.640] after you're gone, the value that you've applied to your children lives on.
[19:37.640 -> 19:41.440] Yeah, what a lovely way of framing it. When I think of Tom's dad, I think of those
[19:41.440 -> 19:49.800] famous news footages of Tom in press conferences and his dad bursting in amongst all the hardened journalists and crying and telling his son
[19:49.800 -> 19:51.040] how proud he was of him.
[19:51.040 -> 19:55.720] So he was a man that was obviously unafraid of expressing his emotions, but he was obviously
[19:55.720 -> 20:01.480] highly attuned emotionally that he can pick up his son's nerves and just come up with
[20:01.480 -> 20:05.000] just a simple reframing of a problem
[20:05.200 -> 20:07.680] that enables his son to feel like he can go out there
[20:07.680 -> 20:10.120] and thrive without worrying about the outcome
[20:10.120 -> 20:13.120] of rather than having to be number one
[20:13.120 -> 20:14.880] and thinking that his father's love depended
[20:14.880 -> 20:16.400] on where he ended up.
[20:16.400 -> 20:19.780] And that links us in turn then to the interview we did
[20:19.780 -> 20:22.440] with Sam Burgess, Slamming Sam Burgess,
[20:22.440 -> 20:24.800] the guy that in Australia has got a reputation
[20:24.800 -> 20:27.080] as being some fears in rugby league player.
[20:27.080 -> 20:30.460] And yet, when we sat down with him on the podcast,
[20:30.460 -> 20:33.320] he revealed the really vulnerable human side of him
[20:33.320 -> 20:35.760] when he was speaking about his own dad,
[20:35.760 -> 20:39.400] who he lost a really important impressionable age
[20:39.400 -> 20:40.560] when he was just 18.
[20:40.560 -> 20:44.920] His father passed away with the cruel motor neuron disease.
[20:44.920 -> 20:46.840] But if you listen to what he says,
[20:46.840 -> 20:49.780] he remembers all these years later.
[20:49.780 -> 20:51.640] I think again, it echoes that point you said
[20:51.640 -> 20:55.400] of the power of today echoes into eternity.
[21:10.680 -> 21:13.680] As the disease progressed, it got down to everything really. My father, he becomes like just a vessel.
[21:13.680 -> 21:19.080] He's in a wheelchair, I have to carry him up and down the stairs.
[21:19.080 -> 21:20.080] Still lived in the same house.
[21:20.080 -> 21:22.880] I learned how to cook through the six months.
[21:22.880 -> 21:25.480] My dad was a great cook. Yeah, you know then he also
[21:26.000 -> 21:28.000] I look back now as an adult as a father
[21:28.640 -> 21:29.920] and
[21:29.920 -> 21:32.240] What he actually was doing for me in those
[21:32.920 -> 21:36.020] 12 or 18 months. He was preparing me for the rest of my life, which
[21:36.880 -> 21:40.160] It's actually really when I look back it I go. Wow. He's
[21:40.680 -> 21:47.600] More intelligent than I thought but he was teaching me how to run a house, how to cook, how to clean, how to manage.
[21:47.600 -> 21:50.720] But we did it in a fun, loving, caring way.
[21:50.720 -> 21:53.720] But he was definitely preparing me for the rest of my life.
[21:53.720 -> 21:56.160] He knew that he had a short space of time
[21:56.160 -> 21:58.440] to get me ready for the rest of my life.
[21:58.440 -> 22:00.720] And that's essentially what I did.
[22:02.840 -> 22:04.220] Another really moving clip
[22:04.220 -> 22:05.840] from our previous conversations
[22:05.840 -> 22:07.400] on high performance, and I think at this point
[22:07.400 -> 22:08.900] it's just worth us having a conversation
[22:08.900 -> 22:12.840] because quite rightly, we're putting the parents
[22:12.840 -> 22:16.560] of Ian and Joe, Stangela, Tom and Sam on a pedestal
[22:16.560 -> 22:19.680] and saying, look at the great things these people did.
[22:19.680 -> 22:21.640] And I don't want any parents to feel inferior
[22:21.640 -> 22:23.700] listening to this and think, bloody hell,
[22:23.700 -> 22:26.400] those people got the parenting totally right and they end up
[22:26.400 -> 22:28.640] with really successful children.
[22:28.640 -> 22:30.120] That's not the message here.
[22:30.120 -> 22:33.080] I think the message here is that everyone's just doing their best.
[22:33.080 -> 22:37.760] And I know that I and Harriet, my wife, we feel on a daily basis like we're getting
[22:37.760 -> 22:40.320] it wrong and we're making mistakes and we're letting our kids down.
[22:40.320 -> 22:44.280] And I think that it's really important that we just talk about that just for a few
[22:44.280 -> 22:49.760] moments, because parenting is the hardest job you can ever do. The salary is not great.
[22:49.760 -> 22:55.720] The sacrifice is pretty monumental. And it's only actually years later that you see the
[22:55.720 -> 22:56.720] rewards.
[22:56.720 -> 22:59.040] Steve Marrer Yeah. I horrified my wife a few years ago
[22:59.040 -> 23:03.200] when I said to her, I said, I think I'm finally ready to be a dad. She was like, you've already
[23:03.200 -> 23:05.880] got two children. What do you mean by that?
[23:05.880 -> 23:08.440] And the point I meant was that I felt like
[23:08.440 -> 23:11.680] I was able to be less selfish,
[23:11.680 -> 23:15.360] to be a little bit less self-centered
[23:15.360 -> 23:19.040] than I actually just enjoyed being in one place
[23:19.040 -> 23:20.360] and being grounded for a while.
[23:20.360 -> 23:22.160] And that sounds terrible, I know,
[23:22.160 -> 23:24.720] to admit that I'd been a dad for a few years
[23:24.720 -> 23:28.560] before that happened, but I think the point was that it's not something
[23:28.560 -> 23:32.880] that you know how to do from day one there's no manual for it I think you've
[23:32.880 -> 23:38.300] you know I was 33 when I became a dad for the first time so I there was an
[23:38.300 -> 23:42.400] awful lot of conditioning that I almost had to let go of to learn how to do it
[23:42.400 -> 23:47.200] and I think that's been the message we've heard from so many of our guests that,
[23:47.200 -> 23:49.240] do you remember when we sat down with Dylan Hartley
[23:49.240 -> 23:52.960] and he'd just become a dad and we were asking him,
[23:52.960 -> 23:56.160] he spoke really eloquently about his rugby career
[23:56.160 -> 23:57.000] and lessons he'd learned.
[23:57.000 -> 23:59.080] And then when we asked him how he would apply it as a dad,
[23:59.080 -> 24:00.120] he was like, I don't know, mate,
[24:00.120 -> 24:02.000] I've never done this before.
[24:02.000 -> 24:03.400] And I think that's the point that
[24:03.400 -> 24:05.040] we're all learning on the job.
[24:05.960 -> 24:09.640] And we need to always remember and sort of,
[24:09.640 -> 24:11.880] I think, press reset.
[24:11.880 -> 24:14.360] I just want to read a quick text I had from Glenn Hoddle,
[24:14.360 -> 24:16.440] former guest on the High Performance podcast,
[24:16.440 -> 24:18.440] Spurs legend, former England manager.
[24:18.440 -> 24:20.520] He sent me a message actually just last night,
[24:20.520 -> 24:22.440] because obviously I've stopped working
[24:22.440 -> 24:24.440] on BT Sport with him actually.
[24:24.440 -> 24:28.380] And he said, just a quick note Jake, to say whatever you do now professionally, good luck. Just
[24:28.380 -> 24:33.040] one thing, always keep your priority, your family and your kids. I know you do, but you're
[24:33.040 -> 24:38.020] now hitting the middle of your career, which is a challenge, Glenn. And I just think that's
[24:38.020 -> 24:41.840] really interesting because it's a nice reminder for me that it's no good me going, you know
[24:41.840 -> 24:47.120] what, for the past few years I've been grafted, like you said it at the start of this podcast, you know, I always go home, my family first
[24:47.120 -> 24:52.000] is my motto. You can't ever stop that. You know, there's not a moment where you've done
[24:52.000 -> 24:58.080] enough of being a parent. You're a parent until the moment you take your last breath
[24:58.080 -> 25:01.480] and actually you continue to be a parent even after that point. I think it's a good reminder.
[25:01.480 -> 25:03.600] Steve Maroon Well, when we did the Mother's Day interview
[25:03.600 -> 25:06.960] with Liz, your mum, you know, that was the point
[25:06.960 -> 25:08.040] that she was making, wasn't it,
[25:08.040 -> 25:10.280] that I never stopped worrying about you,
[25:10.280 -> 25:12.280] just because you're an adult now
[25:12.280 -> 25:14.800] and you've got your own successful career
[25:14.800 -> 25:16.120] and your own family.
[25:16.120 -> 25:18.000] She made that point really beautifully
[25:18.000 -> 25:19.880] that she still worries about you.
[25:19.880 -> 25:23.440] You know, when we do the tour and you play that clip
[25:23.440 -> 25:25.280] of your mum phoning you up concerned about
[25:26.160 -> 25:29.920] like the firestorm that's raising around you at a particular time in your life.
[25:29.920 -> 25:35.200] That's really moving for me because that's comes back to the point that you're saying you never
[25:35.200 -> 25:42.240] this so this is a job to the day we die. And I think at this point we want to speak to all of
[25:42.240 -> 25:48.080] the children listening to this. I know there'll be many people who are listening who are parents and children, but if you're listening to this and
[25:48.080 -> 25:53.920] you're only a child, one day you may well be a parent and when you are, our only message to you
[25:53.920 -> 25:59.840] is nothing left unsaid. It's a really important message to share because it's only when people
[25:59.840 -> 26:06.360] do leave things unsaid and they realise that not saying something is forever the case.
[26:06.360 -> 26:12.120] And that's exactly what happened with the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer.
[26:12.120 -> 26:18.080] It's taken me much longer to work out my relationship with my dad because he was by nature more
[26:18.080 -> 26:28.720] distant. It didn't feel close. I don't regret very much in life, but the last time I saw my dad, he was in hospital,
[26:30.080 -> 26:39.120] died. And I walked away. I didn't knew he was going to die, just knew it.
[26:39.920 -> 26:48.960] And I didn't turn around and go back and tell him what I thought and I should have done.
[26:48.960 -> 26:53.800] What would you have said to your dad?
[26:53.800 -> 26:55.960] I would have said I love you.
[26:55.960 -> 26:59.800] I'd have also said I'm proud of you.
[26:59.800 -> 27:09.200] I'd have tried to close that gap that was so important to him in his life.
[27:09.200 -> 27:14.780] Without doubt one of the most moving 30 seconds of the entire Back Catalog of High Performance
[27:14.780 -> 27:15.780] conversations.
[27:15.780 -> 27:22.160] Yeah, and being in the room with him, like, the emotion was palpable, you could feel it,
[27:22.160 -> 27:28.060] that, that was,, like his voice cracked. And I remember seeing him as he described it,
[27:28.060 -> 27:31.080] like being just a yard away from him,
[27:31.080 -> 27:34.300] you could see his eyes start to go,
[27:34.300 -> 27:37.640] he started to become particularly emotional
[27:37.640 -> 27:40.180] as his brain took him back to that moment
[27:40.180 -> 27:43.700] in the hospital ward with his father.
[27:43.700 -> 27:46.640] And it reminded me, I remember he mentioned
[27:46.640 -> 27:49.920] my dad passed away a couple of years ago,
[27:49.920 -> 27:54.220] but he was quite poorly with dementia for a long time.
[27:55.620 -> 27:58.760] And I remember when he got diagnosed
[27:58.760 -> 28:02.000] and he was starting to forget who we were.
[28:02.000 -> 28:05.840] And I wrote him a letter to tell him how I felt about him
[28:05.840 -> 28:13.520] and it's one of the things that when he passed away I was proudest of because my
[28:13.520 -> 28:17.680] mum had told me that he'd read the letter and he'd appreciated it but it
[28:17.680 -> 28:23.400] was, I almost felt it was my last chance to capture it in a way so it really
[28:23.400 -> 28:25.680] resonated with me when Keier spoke about it,
[28:25.680 -> 28:27.280] of the importance of doing what he said,
[28:27.280 -> 28:29.920] leave nothing unsaid.
[28:29.920 -> 28:32.400] Thank you for sharing that, that is beautiful.
[28:33.920 -> 28:35.920] And we were joined on the podcast as well by Gary Lineker,
[28:35.920 -> 28:37.480] the former England striker,
[28:37.480 -> 28:40.000] who did have a chance to sit with his dad
[28:40.000 -> 28:44.580] as his dad was dying and did say what he wanted to say.
[28:44.580 -> 28:46.440] as his dad was dying and did say what he wanted to say.
[28:49.080 -> 28:51.200] The many chats that we had just before, just before he passed away,
[28:51.200 -> 28:56.200] probably the last coherent conversation I had with him.
[28:56.200 -> 28:58.960] I was about to have said, dad, I better go now.
[28:58.960 -> 28:59.800] It's getting late.
[28:59.800 -> 29:01.880] And he said, no, no, no, son.
[29:01.880 -> 29:03.840] And as I went, he went, I love you.
[29:04.840 -> 29:07.200] And it was like, whoa. Yeah. And I went, no, no, son. And as I wait, he went, I love you. And it was like, whoa.
[29:07.200 -> 29:08.040] Yeah.
[29:08.040 -> 29:09.880] And I went, love you too, dad.
[29:09.880 -> 29:12.540] And I got out and I got in the lift and I was gone.
[29:12.540 -> 29:15.480] I was crying and suddenly about eight nurses
[29:15.480 -> 29:17.720] and people came in the lift and it was like,
[29:17.720 -> 29:18.600] are you all right?
[29:18.600 -> 29:22.240] Yeah, I'm sure that you've seen people crying in hospitals,
[29:22.240 -> 29:23.840] but it was moving.
[29:23.840 -> 29:26.620] It meant a lot because that generation,
[29:26.620 -> 29:29.360] they didn't share their feelings very much.
[29:29.360 -> 29:31.200] I think things, it's changed now.
[29:31.200 -> 29:33.120] I'm totally different with my kids than that,
[29:33.120 -> 29:34.560] but it's just how it was.
[29:36.600 -> 29:39.200] That's a moving way to end this conversation.
[29:39.200 -> 29:42.080] And I think, you know, when you sit here
[29:42.080 -> 29:43.080] and I said at the beginning,
[29:43.080 -> 29:44.440] I'm lucky enough to still have my dad,
[29:44.440 -> 29:46.360] your dad has suddenly passed away. It's like, I don't know, man, the minute, and I said at the beginning, I'm lucky enough to still have my dad, your dad has suddenly passed away,
[29:46.360 -> 29:48.360] it's like, I don't know man,
[29:48.360 -> 29:49.920] the minute you start talking about your parents,
[29:49.920 -> 29:51.800] your emotions are right at the surface.
[29:51.800 -> 29:54.000] And then I wonder whether that's because
[29:54.000 -> 29:56.480] we're also parents ourselves now.
[29:56.480 -> 29:59.080] So, I don't know, it's just like,
[30:00.400 -> 30:01.760] nothing is more important, is it,
[30:01.760 -> 30:03.720] than that relationship of a parent and a child,
[30:03.720 -> 30:04.560] I don't think.
[30:04.560 -> 30:08.400] No, I agree with you, but I think there'll be people listening to this that maybe you know,
[30:08.400 -> 30:12.800] they didn't have a father in their life and there's that old saying isn't there,
[30:12.800 -> 30:17.800] that anyone can be a father but not everyone can be a dad.
[30:17.800 -> 30:22.600] And I think so if there's people listening to this that maybe there's somebody in their life
[30:22.600 -> 30:26.200] that served as a dad-like figure for them,
[30:26.200 -> 30:27.640] whether it was somebody that just encouraged them,
[30:27.640 -> 30:29.920] whether it was a coach, a teacher,
[30:29.920 -> 30:33.560] you know, whether it was a stepfather or an uncle.
[30:33.560 -> 30:36.400] I think the message that I'd want people
[30:36.400 -> 30:38.000] to walk away from this is,
[30:38.000 -> 30:40.080] go and tell them the impact that they had on you,
[30:40.080 -> 30:42.760] because as we've heard from so many of our guests,
[30:42.760 -> 30:46.240] the power of what a father figure
[30:46.240 -> 30:53.200] can do to change a life is significant and I think we need to pass that on because then
[30:53.200 -> 30:58.960] that way the ripples from it last into eternity as so many of our guests have shared.
[30:58.960 -> 31:01.520] Toby What a great way to end. Thank you so much,
[31:01.520 -> 31:02.520] Damien.
[31:02.520 -> 31:03.520] Damien I've loved this mate, thanks. I've really
[31:03.520 -> 31:08.520] enjoyed listening to some of these brilliant archive clips. Toby Happy Father's Day to end. Thank you so much, Damien. I've loved this, mate. Thanks. I've really enjoyed listening to some of these brilliant archive clips. Happy
[31:08.520 -> 31:12.800] Father's Day to Brian. Yeah, and same to Rex as well. And thank you for listening.
[31:12.800 -> 31:17.440] Come back soon for plenty more from High Performance.
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