Facing death taught me how to truly live with David Smith MBE (E215)

“Paralysis taught me how to live”

This emotional conversation is an honest and vulnerable discussion about life, death and understanding our purpose.

In 2010, David Smith was given a life changing diagnosis: a rare, cancerous tumour was found in his neck. A focused athlete, previously competing in karate, running and bobsled, David aimed to put all of his energy into competing in the 2012 Paralympic games as a rower; “I didn’t have time for a tumour”. But, after having surgery on the tumour, David suffered a stroke. This was the start of a new life for David.

After multiple surgeries and a number of complications, David is now fully paralysed on his left side. Despite winning gold for Rowing with Team GB at the 2012 Paralympics, what really stands out is David’s appreciation for every moment, his resilience, and his deep understanding of what it means to really live. In the face of battling cancer and living with paralysis, David's unwavering commitment to his purpose and daily philosophy shines through. He shares the importance of embracing vulnerability and the preciousness of time.

A total of 6 major life-threatening spinal surgeries in 13 years, 6 weeks of radiotherapy and learning to walk after each operation meant his sporting career became more about staying alive than winning medals. David shares his profound wisdom with Jake and Damian, exploring how he is attempting to come to terms with death and how he finds strength in vulnerability.

We’re left with the core of David’s message: “I’m not scared of dying, I’m scared of not living.”

This was recorded in front of a live audience at Happy Place Festival, there may be some background noise.

Follow David's journey here: https://www.instagram.com/davidsmithmbe/?hl=en

Download The High Performance App by clicking the link below and using the code: HPAPP

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# Summary: Paralysis Taught Me How to Live

## Introduction:

- David Smith, a former athlete, had a life-changing diagnosis in 2010: a rare, cancerous tumor in his neck.
- Despite multiple surgeries and complications, David is now fully paralyzed on his left side.
- David's unwavering commitment to his purpose and daily philosophy shines through as he shares his profound wisdom with Jake and Damian.

## Embracing Vulnerability and the Preciousness of Time:

- David emphasizes the importance of embracing vulnerability and appreciating every moment.
- He reflects on his journey through cancer and paralysis, highlighting the significance of waking up and breathing as one of the best gifts in life.
- David acknowledges the challenging days when he struggles with his condition and contemplates giving up, but his unwavering determination to live prevails.

## Accepting Mortality and Finding Strength in Vulnerability:

- David explores how he is attempting to come to terms with death and finds strength in vulnerability.
- He emphasizes the need for acceptance of mortality and acknowledges that everyone comes into this world on an inhale and leaves on an exhale.
- David believes that every breath is defining and encourages people to appreciate the gift of life and the beauty of the world around them.

## Key Insights and Perspectives:

- David's story highlights the power of the mind and the importance of visualization and imagery in achieving goals.
- He emphasizes the value of having a clear purpose and personal philosophy to navigate challenging times.
- David's journey inspires others to find strength in vulnerability, embrace the preciousness of life, and appreciate the beauty of every breath.

## Conclusion:

- David's message resonates with the audience, leaving them with a powerful reminder: "I'm not scared of dying, I'm scared of not living."
- His story serves as a reminder to cherish life, embrace vulnerability, and find strength in the face of adversity.

# Podcast Episode Summary: Paralysis Taught Me How to Live

**Key Points:**

- David Smith, a former athlete who competed in karate, running, and bobsled, was diagnosed with a rare, cancerous tumor in his neck in 2010.
- Despite undergoing multiple surgeries and complications, David remained resilient and focused on competing in the 2012 Paralympic Games as a rower.
- After suffering a stroke during surgery, David became fully paralyzed on his left side.
- Despite these challenges, David won a gold medal for Rowing with Team GB at the 2012 Paralympics.
- David's journey taught him the importance of embracing vulnerability, appreciating every moment, and finding purpose in life.
- He emphasizes the significance of accepting mortality and finding strength in vulnerability.
- David's coping strategies include getting into nature, moving his body, and spending time with friends.
- He believes that true strength lies in vulnerability and that it is okay to cry and express emotions.
- David highlights the importance of savoring the moment, being present, and making the most of every second.
- He encourages individuals to be curious, compassionate, and courageous in their daily lives.
- David emphasizes the value of connecting with others, being present, and putting away distractions when spending time with loved ones.
- He shares his experience of receiving a terminal diagnosis and his determination to live life to the fullest.
- David's message is one of resilience, gratitude, and making the most of every moment.
- He encourages listeners to embrace life, connect with others, and find purpose and meaning in their existence.

**Memorable Quotes:**

- "I'm not scared of dying, I'm scared of not living." - David Smith
- "In strength is vulnerability." - David Smith
- "The quality of Mint Mobile's wireless service in comparison to providers that we've worked with before is incredible." - Advertisement
- "I think back to the younger David and what the older David knows now and what he as if I see would give him but also I tried to look forward and say you know what if I'm I do a lot of memento mori which is not for everyone, the meditation of your own mortality, I think in my situation I have to be connected to that." - David Smith

**Overall Message:**

David Smith's journey through paralysis and terminal diagnosis serves as a powerful reminder to embrace life, appreciate every moment, and find purpose and meaning in existence. He encourages listeners to connect with others, be present, and make the most of every second.

[00:00.000 -> 00:04.880] Before we get going, just a quick reminder that you can download the High Performance app for free.
[00:04.880 -> 00:12.320] Download the app, use your exclusive code HPAPP, that's HP app for access, where you can hear
[00:12.320 -> 00:17.600] Damien talk exclusively about combating perfectionist thinking with the Shakespeare principle.
[00:20.240 -> 00:24.560] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds
[00:24.560 -> 00:27.080] of some of the most fascinating people on the planet.
[00:27.080 -> 00:31.200] I'm Jake Humphrey and alongside Professor Damian Hughes we learn from
[00:31.200 -> 00:37.120] stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be
[00:37.120 -> 00:40.960] challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today.
[00:40.960 -> 00:45.120] When I lay in that hospital bed and I looked around the ward at everyone fighting for their
[00:45.120 -> 00:50.840] lives and just trying to take that other breath, I was like wow, I've chased this thing, this
[00:50.840 -> 00:56.320] medal or this sort of being to try and maybe go back to my village and everyone goes wow,
[00:56.320 -> 01:02.720] you're the gold medalist and it really didn't matter because in a hospital room where everyone's
[01:02.720 -> 01:06.600] fighting for their life, you realise that actually just waking up in the morning
[01:06.600 -> 01:10.600] and breathing is one of the best gifts that will ever be given.
[01:12.400 -> 01:14.400] I won't sit here and lie to you.
[01:14.400 -> 01:16.200] There's days where I don't even leave my bed.
[01:16.200 -> 01:17.600] I'm banging my head on a wall.
[01:17.600 -> 01:18.600] I'm crying.
[01:18.600 -> 01:21.400] I'm just like, you know what, I've had enough suffering now.
[01:21.400 -> 01:24.200] I'm ready to shut my eyes and never open them again.
[01:24.200 -> 01:28.160] I don't want to die.
[01:28.160 -> 01:33.780] And it's scary, and to deal with it and know that it's going to happen again, there has
[01:33.780 -> 01:37.720] to be a level of acceptance of mortality within it all.
[01:37.720 -> 01:41.560] We come into this world on an inhale and we leave on an exhale.
[01:41.560 -> 01:46.400] Two very, very powerful defining breaths. But every breath we take
[01:46.400 -> 01:49.280] is defining.
[01:49.280 -> 01:55.120] So as you can hear from that short clip, this is an emotional and incredibly moving conversation
[01:55.120 -> 02:00.560] of high performance that we recorded recently at the Happy Place Festival in Tatton Park.
[02:00.560 -> 02:06.480] So you're about to hear from a man called David Smith. Now, it's easy to talk about David
[02:06.480 -> 02:11.840] as an athlete. He earned a black belt in karate and was in the British squad for six years,
[02:11.840 -> 02:17.680] took up sprinting, wanted to compete at the Olympics, turned to bobsled and actually missed
[02:17.680 -> 02:23.040] out on the 2006 Winter Olympics spot by one hundredth of a second. He then moved into the
[02:23.040 -> 02:25.040] world of rowing and won gold
[02:25.040 -> 02:30.860] in 2012 at the London Games and subsequently joined the British Cycling Academy Programme
[02:30.860 -> 02:38.160] in 2014. So that's David Smith as an incredible elite athlete, a man who's superbly fit, a
[02:38.160 -> 02:42.520] man who can take his body and his mind to places that most of us can't. But that doesn't
[02:42.520 -> 02:45.360] even begin to describe who David Smith really
[02:45.360 -> 02:51.120] is because David is a man who is fighting for his life. And you're about to hear his
[02:51.120 -> 02:56.540] incredible, moving, inspiring story. And there is so much we can all learn from what you're
[02:56.540 -> 03:01.720] about to hear. So let's do it then. This is David Smith joining us on the High Performance
[03:01.720 -> 03:09.800] Podcast live at the Happy Place Festival.
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[03:52.360 -> 03:53.360] Yes.
[03:53.360 -> 03:54.600] Yes, it does.
[03:54.600 -> 03:59.120] Get started today and see why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be.
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[05:53.000 -> 05:59.000] The headlines will say that in 2012 in rowing he won a gold medal at the London Games.
[05:59.000 -> 06:04.000] The story though is so much more than that. In fact it was not too long ago that Sir Chris Hoy,
[06:04.000 -> 06:06.200] one of our greatest ever Olympians tweeted,
[06:06.200 -> 06:09.640] and he said, under resilience in the dictionary,
[06:09.640 -> 06:12.960] there should be two words, David Smith.
[06:12.960 -> 06:15.960] And it's our absolute pleasure to welcome onto stage,
[06:15.960 -> 06:35.760] David Smith. How you doing?
[06:35.760 -> 06:36.760] Very well.
[06:36.760 -> 06:37.760] A little bit daunted.
[06:37.760 -> 06:41.040] There's a huge crowd in front of me, but I think I lived here for six months and when
[06:41.040 -> 06:42.920] I first moved here, it rained every day.
[06:42.920 -> 06:45.200] So I think to be here
[06:45.200 -> 06:49.440] in the sun, it's beautiful. And yeah, thank you very much for taking time out of your
[06:49.440 -> 06:50.960] weekend to come and listen.
[06:50.960 -> 06:55.380] Let's start at the beginning, if you don't mind. You know, I started the introduction
[06:55.380 -> 07:03.280] to you by talking about the gold medal in London in 2012. But that is a minuscule part
[07:03.280 -> 07:09.920] of your true story. Can we talk about where that desire to be an elite athlete first started?
[07:09.920 -> 07:14.060] I would love to say the typical story that I watched the Olympics and fell in love with
[07:14.060 -> 07:15.840] sport and wanted to be an Olympic athlete.
[07:15.840 -> 07:17.680] That's not entirely true.
[07:17.680 -> 07:18.680] It was my parents.
[07:18.680 -> 07:21.440] I was a bit of a disruptive child growing up in Scotland.
[07:21.440 -> 07:24.980] And I think my parents just to get me out of the house and get me away from under their
[07:24.980 -> 07:27.540] feet was to throw me into the local ski club, karate
[07:27.540 -> 07:31.940] club and a Scottish sport called shinty which I'm sure none of you have heard
[07:31.940 -> 07:37.400] maybe a few people. I guess for me I fell in love with it. My dream was to
[07:37.400 -> 07:41.500] go to the Air Force actually as a physical training instructor but there
[07:41.500 -> 07:47.960] was a few health battles along the way that sort of deterred that injury and I've I guess I've always had the mindset of one door
[07:47.960 -> 07:52.360] closes if you have a sort of growth mindset and you're optimistic there is
[07:52.360 -> 07:55.200] another door there you just have to have the courage to walk through it and I
[07:55.200 -> 08:00.560] guess my journey into sport prepared me for something later in life that was
[08:00.560 -> 08:03.000] ultimately going to test me more than any sporting field.
[08:03.000 -> 08:09.000] So tell us, you were a Great Britain athlete at karate and then you moved over to rowing.
[08:09.000 -> 08:11.000] Just explain a little bit about the transition there then Dave.
[08:11.000 -> 08:15.000] So I think what was great for me is my parents put me into team sports as a kid
[08:15.000 -> 08:19.000] so I learned early on about the we not the I and I think that was super important
[08:19.000 -> 08:25.600] because fast forward until I've left sport and some athletes reflect on medals and what you've won.
[08:25.600 -> 08:30.080] For me, I look back and think the best thing I got out of sport was friendships and relationships
[08:30.080 -> 08:34.640] that have lasted a lifetime. I lean into some of those people now to deal with what I deal with
[08:34.640 -> 08:41.600] now. But I also believe that sport gave me the mindset and the physical body to deal with cancer
[08:41.600 -> 08:46.400] and paralysis, but cancer and paralysis taught me how to live.
[08:46.400 -> 08:52.840] So I think that sport was the perfect place to learn all of the values of resistance,
[08:52.840 -> 08:58.420] persistence, courage and respect, and also how to get sleep right, nutrition right and
[08:58.420 -> 09:02.880] perform in a high performance environment. But ultimately, most athletes would say that
[09:02.880 -> 09:05.840] prepared them for a world championships and Olympic Games.
[09:05.840 -> 09:10.380] For me, that really prepared me to sit in oncology and fight for my life.
[09:10.380 -> 09:12.000] So who were you then in 2010?
[09:12.000 -> 09:13.600] I've seen a brilliant photo of you.
[09:13.600 -> 09:14.600] I mean, you look unbelievable.
[09:14.600 -> 09:18.760] You're running on a track, you're ripped, you've got your top off and I'm like the sort
[09:18.760 -> 09:20.720] of six pack I've been dreaming of.
[09:20.720 -> 09:23.240] I'm promising my wife for 20 years.
[09:23.240 -> 09:25.520] But what you say under the caption of the photo,
[09:25.520 -> 09:27.360] you say that this is me at my physical peak.
[09:27.360 -> 09:30.160] I had no idea that when this photo was taken,
[09:30.160 -> 09:32.760] there was already something growing inside me.
[09:32.760 -> 09:35.540] So who were you the day that photo was taken?
[09:36.680 -> 09:38.760] If I'm being completely honest,
[09:38.760 -> 09:41.160] I think I was a selfish athlete
[09:41.160 -> 09:43.800] that was very focused on himself
[09:43.800 -> 09:45.960] with probably some narcissistic traits.
[09:45.960 -> 09:52.000] It was all about winning, it was all about David and I've been humbled
[09:52.000 -> 09:55.200] massively. I think I've always been a nice person, my parents gave me good
[09:55.200 -> 09:59.800] values to always be nice to people but I was very focused, very driven. I'd say I
[09:59.800 -> 10:05.720] was very attached to the physical being that I was. So I guess I had a lot of insecurities
[10:05.720 -> 10:11.440] about how I looked. I was never in, I thought I was not in great shape and I had to get
[10:11.440 -> 10:17.280] in better shape. So I had a lot of insecurities around my physical body. And it's funny when
[10:17.280 -> 10:22.360] I first went into hospital, I was a hundred kilo rower. And after three weeks, I woke
[10:22.360 -> 10:25.400] up at 65 kilos after suffering a stroke and
[10:25.400 -> 10:30.620] having my first tumor removed. That was the first time I guessed that my ego
[10:30.620 -> 10:34.880] died. I wasn't worried how big my arms were. I wasn't worried about the six pack
[10:34.880 -> 10:40.040] that you've longed for for so many years. It really put into perspective just how
[10:40.040 -> 10:46.380] beautiful this gift is of life and how important it is, but also how we get so hung
[10:46.380 -> 10:48.520] up on things that really don't matter.
[10:48.520 -> 10:52.980] And I know it's easy to say and cliche to say, but it really is.
[10:52.980 -> 10:57.300] When it's all said and done and you're lying in an ICU or in the highlight of your day
[10:57.300 -> 11:04.120] is a bed bath after you've pooed yourself, it really puts so much into perspective.
[11:04.120 -> 11:05.840] And I think at that point I detached
[11:05.840 -> 11:10.640] from the physical being and tried to transcend into more of a spiritual,
[11:10.640 -> 11:15.640] mindful place. So just go back to that phrase that you use there, that was the day
[11:15.640 -> 11:20.880] the ego died. Would you explore that a little bit more for us, tell us what that
[11:20.880 -> 11:29.000] means and what it did mean in that next stage for you. Yeah I think we get a lot of our sense of self and how we perceive other people
[11:29.000 -> 11:33.120] perceive us and I think at that point I purely identified with what an athlete
[11:33.120 -> 11:36.920] was and in the Olympic motto it's sit just at his forties so faster higher
[11:36.920 -> 11:42.600] stronger so I had to be a six foot four powerful athlete and then all of a
[11:42.600 -> 11:49.260] sudden you're lying in a hospital bed, you can't sit up, you're relying on people to feed you, wash you, dress you and at
[11:49.260 -> 11:53.440] that point I just detached completely from the ego. So all of a sudden it
[11:53.440 -> 11:57.440] wasn't about how other people perceive me, it wasn't that I sort of thought I
[11:57.440 -> 12:01.220] was never going to be good enough until I won a world title or went to an
[12:01.220 -> 12:11.200] Olympic Games. All of a sudden it was like, well, actually, it's okay just being me. It's actually okay leaning into the struggle, crying, being upset. I often
[12:11.200 -> 12:15.360] like my emotions to the Scottish weather. There's a bundle of them within a minute.
[12:15.360 -> 12:20.880] I go from ecstatically high to depressed, to joyful, happy. But I think when I lay in
[12:20.880 -> 12:28.180] that hospital bed and I looked around the ward, everyone fighting for their lives and just trying to take that other breath, I was like, wow, I've chased
[12:28.180 -> 12:34.260] this thing, this medal or this sort of being to try and maybe go back to my village.
[12:34.260 -> 12:36.140] And everyone goes, wow, you're the gold medalist.
[12:36.140 -> 12:43.600] And it really didn't matter because in a hospital room where everyone's fighting for their life,
[12:43.600 -> 12:46.000] you realize that actually just waking up in the morning
[12:46.000 -> 12:50.000] and breathing is one of the best gifts that will ever be given.
[12:50.000 -> 12:54.000] So would you mind sharing with us how you went from being on the
[12:54.000 -> 12:57.000] Olympic rowing program to lying in that hospital bed?
[12:57.000 -> 13:01.000] Yeah, so it was probably a lifetime in the making.
[13:01.000 -> 13:04.000] My tumor was a very slow-growing tumor.
[13:04.000 -> 13:09.120] I think it started to present symptoms around about the age of 17 and I'd spent my whole
[13:09.120 -> 13:15.240] life in sports. So increased bladder function, not control over your
[13:15.240 -> 13:20.080] biosexual function. I'm not too shy to say that anymore. I used to be very
[13:20.080 -> 13:23.520] embarrassed when I had the ego to talk about that. I think it's a very important
[13:23.520 -> 13:27.980] indicator of when the body's not working right. Lots of fatigue,
[13:27.980 -> 13:33.220] pain, and every doctor I've seen just said, you're doing too much sport, you're
[13:33.220 -> 13:37.020] doing too much training. So I would go away from the doctor. There was no Google.
[13:37.020 -> 13:40.640] My mum had a huge big medical book and I used to try and flick through the pages
[13:40.640 -> 13:45.920] to self-diagnose. The more I read, the more I thought I was going to die of a million
[13:45.920 -> 13:53.200] different things. So I decided to park the book. I spent 10-15 years in and out of hospitals.
[13:53.200 -> 13:58.320] Eventually, one day after a rowing session, the physio had done a light manipulation on my neck
[13:58.320 -> 14:03.040] because rowers are generally suffering from bad backs. We thought it would be a bulging disc.
[14:04.400 -> 14:08.680] He said, look, the easiest thing, we'll send you for some tests. The tests that led up to
[14:08.680 -> 14:13.800] the scan were pretty horrific, lots of things getting cameras getting stuck
[14:13.800 -> 14:17.680] places you don't want them to be put and eventually said we'll just scan your
[14:17.680 -> 14:22.060] neck and they scanned my neck and I guess in that day in 2010 is when my
[14:22.060 -> 14:27.220] life really completely changed in many ways. I guess an old David
[14:27.220 -> 14:32.020] died and a new David was born on that day and I had a greater appreciation for life
[14:32.020 -> 14:34.140] and what lay ahead.
[14:34.140 -> 14:41.440] So you came back from that to win gold in the 2012 London Games. What was the difference
[14:41.440 -> 14:46.000] then of the David before that diagnosis and the one after it?
[14:46.000 -> 14:51.000] Because I'd set the goal and my dream was to make it to London, when that diagnosis came,
[14:51.000 -> 14:57.000] my internal narrative was, I don't have time for a tumour, I'm trying to get ready for a Games.
[14:57.000 -> 15:01.000] And it was just this annoying thing, like a stone in my shoe I had to get rid of.
[15:01.000 -> 15:06.640] I didn't realise the stone in the shoe was going to revolve cutting the front of my neck open, cutting into vertebrae, cutting into the
[15:06.640 -> 15:11.160] spinal cord to remove this tumour, to then send me home. I then had a stroke at
[15:11.160 -> 15:15.680] home and almost died and was rushed back into hospital and that's when I woke up
[15:15.680 -> 15:20.120] and I was looking at the roof for almost a month. The goal was just to
[15:20.120 -> 15:23.400] touch my nose. So there was some paralysis at this point? Yeah, there was
[15:23.400 -> 15:25.320] like, it's almost like a temporary paralysis.
[15:25.320 -> 15:27.560] I think any time they cut into the spinal cord,
[15:27.560 -> 15:29.560] you're going to disrupt the cord.
[15:29.560 -> 15:31.720] So I woke up, I couldn't really move,
[15:31.720 -> 15:34.760] and went from 100 kilos to 65 kilos.
[15:34.760 -> 15:37.440] And I was like to the doctors, you know,
[15:37.440 -> 15:39.200] I need to get out, I need to get training.
[15:39.200 -> 15:41.080] London is a few years away.
[15:41.080 -> 15:43.800] And I don't think I really, to be honest with you,
[15:43.800 -> 15:45.360] I think for the last 13 years,
[15:45.360 -> 15:49.280] I'm still in denial that there's actually anything wrong with me. I still attached.
[15:49.280 -> 15:53.840] And even though I don't have the six pack anymore and probably resemble a bit more of
[15:53.840 -> 16:02.480] Jake's stomach yet, I still identify to that photo. And I think I just sort of seen this thing,
[16:02.480 -> 16:08.880] I need to get it out of the way. And six months I think, after that surgery, I was back in a boat in 11
[16:09.080 -> 16:12.680] months, world champion, and then 12 months sitting on the start line of London.
[16:12.880 -> 16:15.240] Mate, that's incredible.
[16:15.440 -> 16:19.240] I mean, that absolutely is working round the world.
[16:23.040 -> 16:24.440] Obviously, for a long time,
[16:24.440 -> 16:27.440] you couldn't do anything to physically get closer to rowing.
[16:27.440 -> 16:33.600] So what were you able to do to, it sounds ridiculous, but to still be a rower, even
[16:33.600 -> 16:36.520] when you're lying, paralysed in that hospital bed?
[16:36.520 -> 16:41.420] I think for me, I realised that was the initial realisation of the power of the mind.
[16:41.420 -> 16:49.280] So I'd done lots of sports psychology, I'd spent most and spent most of my childhood doing karate, so I understood imagery, visualization. So I
[16:49.280 -> 16:54.720] was very disciplined. Those first sort of three, four months, every morning I knew
[16:54.720 -> 16:57.960] the rowing team were going on the water. At 7 a.m. I went on with my mind. I
[16:57.960 -> 17:03.400] couldn't go anywhere. There was no Netflix, so I would just lie in my
[17:03.400 -> 17:07.560] hospital bed and visualize 18 kilometers on the water every stroke.
[17:07.560 -> 17:10.000] I would smell the water, feel the water,
[17:10.000 -> 17:13.640] and I split my day up into different sports.
[17:13.640 -> 17:17.560] So I would do karate for an hour, rowing, skiing, running,
[17:17.560 -> 17:20.280] all the sports I'd done to try and reconnect
[17:20.280 -> 17:22.640] the nervous system, the neural system.
[17:22.640 -> 17:24.880] And I was the stubborn, horrible,
[17:24.880 -> 17:26.400] I apologize to all the nurses,
[17:26.400 -> 17:28.760] I was that patient who, when they came into the room,
[17:28.760 -> 17:31.800] I was already ready to go, get me up, I need to move.
[17:31.800 -> 17:36.120] And I believe 100% that the mind played such a key role
[17:36.120 -> 17:38.040] in getting me from that hospital bed
[17:38.040 -> 17:39.800] into the start line in London.
[17:39.800 -> 17:41.520] Do you think without that visualization,
[17:41.520 -> 17:44.720] you wouldn't have competed to the level you did?
[17:44.720 -> 17:50.160] I think it's hard to quantify that. I think it is quite subjective but I do believe that it played
[17:51.280 -> 17:56.000] an integral part of getting me because you have to believe in yourself when the doctors are telling
[17:56.000 -> 18:01.120] you look you're never going to walk again, sports never going to happen again, this is who you are.
[18:01.120 -> 18:02.240] Is that the message from them?
[18:02.240 -> 18:05.520] Yeah pretty much and so you have to believe
[18:05.520 -> 18:13.040] in yourself. And another thing with sport is that it's a rugged environment and people are fighting
[18:13.040 -> 18:19.200] to get to games and to your places. It doesn't stop and wait for you. So I very quickly realized
[18:19.200 -> 18:25.600] that that boat had already gone. And if I was going to be on it I had to do the work
[18:25.600 -> 18:29.080] and to be honest with you at the time I thought I can never go through this
[18:29.080 -> 18:33.280] again this is absolutely horrendous it's brutal and I think the last stroke I
[18:33.280 -> 18:36.680] ever took on a rowing boat was the one that crossed the line in London and I
[18:36.680 -> 18:39.360] said at that point I'm never going near a boat again I'm never going near a
[18:39.360 -> 18:44.360] hospital again I'm done with tumors, rehab, training and everything and I was
[18:44.360 -> 18:47.040] quite happy to close the book and have a normal life.
[18:48.240 -> 18:53.600] Go back to that phrase, I had to believe in myself, because when you sat in a doctor's
[18:53.600 -> 18:58.160] surgery and they're telling you you're never going to walk again, you know, London is a
[18:58.160 -> 19:02.800] faraway dream. How do you believe in yourself? Because I'm sure there's lots of people here
[19:02.800 -> 19:07.240] have got their own challenges where that's useful.
[19:07.240 -> 19:09.320] Would you tell us how you do it?
[19:09.320 -> 19:10.920] For me, it was having good people around me
[19:10.920 -> 19:12.520] and having people who did believe.
[19:12.520 -> 19:15.360] I also searched for vicarious experiences.
[19:15.360 -> 19:17.680] I went and looked for people who had already done it
[19:17.680 -> 19:19.760] and been there and thought, well, if they can do it,
[19:19.760 -> 19:20.800] I'm no different.
[19:20.800 -> 19:23.840] And I guess in many ways we aren't, right?
[19:23.840 -> 19:25.360] I don't see myself as anyone special.
[19:25.360 -> 19:28.960] I'm from a little village in the north of Scotland, had some opportunities, took them.
[19:28.960 -> 19:34.240] I think we all have, I don't want to generalise and cliché, but I do think we can really surprise
[19:34.240 -> 19:39.360] ourselves. I've seen some people who thought they weren't strong enough and then they're
[19:39.360 -> 19:45.700] given a diagnosis, they wake up in ICU and they can fight. I was asked two days ago who my
[19:45.700 -> 19:50.120] inspiration was and obviously I should probably say Chris and other athletes
[19:50.120 -> 19:54.340] but inspiration can be found really close to home and I've found it on these
[19:54.340 -> 19:59.140] wards seeing normal people doing incredible things and when you're really
[19:59.140 -> 20:04.780] tested just how much you can tune into it. I think the one thing I always say to
[20:04.780 -> 20:05.360] myself when it got hard is I always the one thing I always say to myself
[20:05.360 -> 20:08.960] when it got hard is I always ask myself why I started.
[20:08.960 -> 20:11.000] And I was always very clear on my why.
[20:11.000 -> 20:12.920] I've done a lot of work with psychologists
[20:12.920 -> 20:16.320] and studied psychology, and I realized if I had,
[20:16.320 -> 20:18.320] was very clear on my personal philosophy,
[20:18.320 -> 20:21.240] very clear on my purpose for each day.
[20:21.240 -> 20:24.560] My purpose as a son, a brother, an athlete,
[20:24.560 -> 20:25.680] a husband, whatever that may be, very clear, my purpose as a son, a brother, an athlete, a husband, whatever that may be,
[20:26.400 -> 20:32.000] very clear on my purpose. And also always reminded myself, why did you start?
[20:32.000 -> 20:33.920] Jason Vale So what was your answer to that question?
[20:33.920 -> 20:34.160] Why?
[20:34.160 -> 20:36.400] Kevin McCullen So when I went through surgery,
[20:36.400 -> 20:40.320] one and two, why I started is because I wanted to be a world champion and I wanted to be the
[20:40.320 -> 20:53.600] best in the world at what I did. If you ask me that now, it's a completely different answer. It's more about trying to make people see how important life is. We come into this world on
[20:53.600 -> 21:00.800] an inhale and we leave on an exhale. Two very, very powerful defining breaths. But every breath
[21:00.800 -> 21:05.400] we take is defining. I often challenge people to say, did you wake up this morning,
[21:05.400 -> 21:06.660] put your feet on the floor and say
[21:06.660 -> 21:08.880] that you were grateful for your feet?
[21:08.880 -> 21:11.080] Were you grateful for the legs that took you here today?
[21:11.080 -> 21:14.240] And I know we're tuning into our breath,
[21:14.240 -> 21:15.520] but on an average day,
[21:15.520 -> 21:18.200] how aware are we of these breaths that we take
[21:18.200 -> 21:21.320] and just how amazing they are, how special they are.
[21:21.320 -> 21:24.320] And now when I feel like I want to give up,
[21:24.320 -> 21:26.480] I say to myself, well well David, you have a purpose
[21:26.480 -> 21:32.960] of understanding what it's like to be on the edge of mortality and face your death, but you also know
[21:32.960 -> 21:39.280] the real beauty in humanity, the real beauty in the world, and I sort of feel that if I can share that,
[21:39.840 -> 21:46.840] then people might not have to go through what I've gone through to have the death of the ego and to wake up just to how amazing life can be.
[21:47.840 -> 21:49.920] So you crossed that finish line at 2012
[21:49.920 -> 21:52.760] and said, I'm done with running, that was brutal.
[21:52.760 -> 21:56.280] And although you'd changed after your cancer diagnosis,
[21:56.280 -> 21:58.020] you probably hadn't changed totally
[21:58.020 -> 21:59.440] because you actually were unable
[21:59.440 -> 22:01.200] to leave elite sport behind.
[22:01.200 -> 22:02.360] You called Dave Brailsford,
[22:02.360 -> 22:05.200] who runs British Cycling at the time, still
[22:05.200 -> 22:10.000] heavily involved, and started training with people like Sir Chris Hoy. Got to an incredible
[22:10.000 -> 22:13.000] standard, and then you get another phone call.
[22:13.000 -> 22:18.000] Yeah, so I thought I'd given that. I was actually trying to avoid a real job more than anything
[22:18.000 -> 22:24.480] else, but I realised that sport saved my life. It's a big part of who I am, and I sort of
[22:24.480 -> 22:25.040] think when you're an
[22:25.040 -> 22:29.040] athlete you get so worried about retiring and transition but the only thing that really
[22:29.040 -> 22:32.800] changes is that you just don't have your national team top written on your back but you're still
[22:32.800 -> 22:37.520] an athlete. I think Nike coined it beautifully that if you have a body and move you're an
[22:37.520 -> 22:43.200] athlete. So I think we're all athletes of life. But unfortunately I guess there was still a part
[22:43.200 -> 22:47.760] of my ego popping through and thought you know what it'd be great to go to another Games. It would be great to go
[22:47.760 -> 22:49.320] and do something else.
[22:49.320 -> 22:53.680] Before I knew it, I was living down here, cycling on the velodrome. Everything was going
[22:53.680 -> 23:00.240] great but I was having regular scans. It was the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games
[23:00.240 -> 23:05.400] and I remember I was called into the hospital to get the results and I was delivered in
[23:05.400 -> 23:09.160] a very madder of a fact, look, the tumour is growing back, you're going to require another
[23:09.160 -> 23:10.160] surgery.
[23:10.160 -> 23:14.640] And I remember walking out, sitting down, watching the triathlon on the TV in the waiting
[23:14.640 -> 23:16.960] room and the tears ran down my eyes.
[23:16.960 -> 23:20.800] Because I often say to myself, I couldn't go through all that again.
[23:20.800 -> 23:22.880] And now, here I was faced again.
[23:22.880 -> 23:26.720] And I think uncertainty breeds anxiety when you don't
[23:26.720 -> 23:30.800] know what's coming. But I think sometimes ignorance is bliss. And now I knew that I
[23:30.800 -> 23:36.080] was about to have my neck cut open and I was going to go back to ground zero. And you know,
[23:36.080 -> 23:42.800] I didn't think I had it in me, but somewhere I found the strength to go in. I didn't want
[23:42.800 -> 23:50.880] to go in. I was about to get on a plane and just run away and see how long I could live before I couldn't take any more breaths. But it was inevitable, I had to
[23:50.880 -> 23:56.800] walk through those doors and six months after that surgery I was back on a bike riding for Britain
[23:56.800 -> 24:02.080] again. So your response of wanting to run away from that is something I can empathise with.
[24:02.080 -> 24:08.320] So what stopped you doing that? I think the reality of the if I did I would I would have died
[24:08.320 -> 24:13.840] and I think there comes a point where I realized that I often looked at the
[24:13.840 -> 24:17.600] scans and I often used to think is that somebody else's scan because I actually
[24:17.600 -> 24:22.320] don't feel ill I've never really felt ill and I think I just had to sit down
[24:22.320 -> 24:24.640] and be like well if I don't walk through those doors
[24:24.640 -> 24:33.180] to go through for the surgery I'm going to die at some point and i love life and i don't want to check out yet i feel like i've got a lot to live for
[24:33.100 -> 24:38.280] i love the sunrises and sunsets and i feel that you know i had to go and have that surgery.
[24:44.800 -> 24:49.600] they saved my life and six months later I forgot about it and I was cycling again thinking well that's it I couldn't do I couldn't go through that again I'll just continue on in sport and
[24:50.560 -> 24:57.280] live my life. And what happened next? I was diagnosed again so within a matter of months I was
[24:57.280 -> 25:03.360] back in a scan machine and I sat again went did a training session here got the train down to the
[25:03.360 -> 25:06.040] hospital and then was told look the, the tumor's coming back,
[25:06.040 -> 25:10.020] but you have some time, go and enjoy yourself.
[25:10.020 -> 25:13.600] So I came back up, booked a trip to Majorca,
[25:13.600 -> 25:16.600] went cycling, but knew it was coming.
[25:16.600 -> 25:19.000] I still don't think I've ever really processed that yet.
[25:19.000 -> 25:21.200] And I remember coming back,
[25:21.200 -> 25:24.600] I packed up my flat in Knutsford,
[25:24.600 -> 25:26.520] I parked my car in the velodrome,
[25:26.520 -> 25:29.200] I put the key in the post and sent it to my dad
[25:29.200 -> 25:32.180] and I said, look, can you go and pick up my car?
[25:32.180 -> 25:34.660] I thought I was only gonna be in hospital for a few weeks
[25:34.660 -> 25:37.640] and I'd be back on a bike a few months later.
[25:37.640 -> 25:39.880] And unfortunately that surgery,
[25:39.880 -> 25:43.200] there was some form of complication in the surgery
[25:43.200 -> 25:45.040] and I woke up and I was paralyzed
[25:45.040 -> 25:50.400] from the neck down and six months later I was pretty much still looking at the the roof and
[25:50.400 -> 25:56.560] I've never moved again on the left side. So did you know when you went into that surgery that
[25:56.560 -> 26:01.920] there was a serious paralysis risk at that point? Yeah there's always the risk, there's the risk of
[26:01.920 -> 26:08.400] dying in the surgery, there's also the risk of waking up as a quadriplegic, losing everything from the neck down.
[26:08.400 -> 26:13.440] So when I realized that I'd only lost the left side, I was actually very
[26:13.440 -> 26:18.760] grateful. I was grateful that it could have been both sides. And there's
[26:18.760 -> 26:24.000] some incredible human beings living incredible lives as quadriplegics. I'm
[26:24.000 -> 26:27.120] not going to say that it hits an athlete harder,
[26:27.120 -> 26:29.360] but for me, I lived to move my body
[26:29.360 -> 26:33.720] and to lose that ability, I'm not so sure I could live.
[26:33.720 -> 26:36.760] So to only lose one side, I could still get back on a bike.
[26:36.760 -> 26:37.960] I could still swim.
[26:37.960 -> 26:39.760] I taught myself to ski again,
[26:39.760 -> 26:41.320] and I could still, I guess,
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[29:30.440 -> 29:36.720] This sounds very much like a grieving process that you would have had to go through, the
[29:36.720 -> 29:41.400] death of the old you, to embrace the new. Would you tell us a little bit about how you
[29:41.400 -> 29:46.000] got through that process quickly and in such a productive way?
[29:46.000 -> 29:52.720] I still think I am going through it. I maybe have to come and see you for a session on the sofa.
[29:52.720 -> 29:59.520] I don't know if I can ever accept the spinal cord injury because it wasn't my fault.
[29:59.520 -> 30:05.200] There's days where I can accept it and I'm grateful for life and I'm cycling my bike through the Alps
[30:05.200 -> 30:10.120] and it's beautiful. And then there's other times where I fall over in the street, I can't
[30:10.120 -> 30:14.640] tie my shoelaces, I need people to dry me and sometimes need people to dress me. And
[30:14.640 -> 30:19.920] I say, you know, this is not what it was meant to be. And I cry, I go through the grieving
[30:19.920 -> 30:29.000] process and I think what I've realized is that that's okay. I think to stay strong the whole time is too tiring and I think actually in strength is
[30:29.000 -> 30:34.000] vulnerability and I think it is okay to cry, choosing my moments carefully when I
[30:34.000 -> 30:39.440] do cry and just accepting the human for what it is and the emotions that the
[30:39.440 -> 30:43.080] human goes through. I've spent a lot of time doing therapy, I thought it was
[30:43.080 -> 30:50.820] great sitting on sofas talking about all of it and trying to understand it and process it. But still my
[30:50.820 -> 30:56.360] number one coping strategy is getting into nature, moving my body and being with my friends.
[30:56.360 -> 31:00.320] And I don't think that ever changes. And I think that's where I find so much gratitude
[31:00.320 -> 31:03.600] and still being able to use my right leg and my right arm.
[31:03.600 -> 31:08.500] Jason Vale – But I think that's an indication's an indication of actually how much you had changed.
[31:08.500 -> 31:12.000] Because, you know, we started this conversation with you telling us that you were like a selfish athlete.
[31:12.000 -> 31:17.000] It was all about you. You were number one, which is often how it has to be when you're an elite performer.
[31:17.000 -> 31:22.500] And now you're simply grateful that only half your body has been paralyzed.
[31:22.500 -> 31:25.720] Have you read the book Man's Search for Meaning?
[31:25.720 -> 31:30.220] Yeah, I think Man's Search for Meaning and Eckhart Tolle's The Power Now
[31:30.220 -> 31:34.960] were probably the two most powerful books I've read. Somebody gave it to me
[31:34.960 -> 31:38.280] in hospital when I was first paralyzed and said look I think you're going to
[31:38.280 -> 31:42.560] benefit massively from reading this. I think it helped me to try and somehow
[31:42.560 -> 31:45.200] find meaning in the suffering and discover a purpose. I think it helped me to try and somehow find meaning in the suffering and discover
[31:45.200 -> 31:46.200] a purpose.
[31:46.200 -> 31:51.320] And I think one of the biggest things I took from it was the space between a stimulus and
[31:51.320 -> 31:52.320] response.
[31:52.320 -> 31:56.560] I think we've become very reactive and certainly when you're paralyzed it's very easy to start
[31:56.560 -> 31:58.560] throwing plates at the wall.
[31:58.560 -> 32:02.960] I tried to really work on the space between stimulus and response that I took from the
[32:02.960 -> 32:03.960] book.
[32:03.960 -> 32:07.640] How do you do that? A lot of mindfulness, a lot of meditation, a lot of breath work
[32:07.640 -> 32:15.160] and again just I guess many ways I try to think back to the younger David and
[32:15.160 -> 32:19.240] what the older David knows now and what he as if I see would give him but also I
[32:19.240 -> 32:24.280] tried to look forward and say you know what if I'm I do a lot of memento mori
[32:24.280 -> 32:25.200] which is not for everyone,
[32:25.200 -> 32:29.600] the meditation of your own mortality, I think in my situation I have to be connected to that.
[32:29.600 -> 32:34.000] And I think it makes me use every second of every day wisely. So I try to look forward and say,
[32:34.000 -> 32:40.080] well, you know, if I'm lucky enough to live to 85, that's 480 months, 2000 odd weeks,
[32:40.800 -> 32:45.800] how am I spending them and who am I spending them with? So time became a very precious thing to me.
[32:46.000 -> 32:48.640] So I said, you know, every day I want to leave my house.
[32:48.720 -> 32:50.600] I say a little thing before I leave every day.
[32:50.800 -> 32:57.080] I say, be curious, be compassionate and be more someone with more courage.
[32:57.280 -> 33:00.680] And I try to stick those three values wherever I go.
[33:00.880 -> 33:04.360] More courage, more courage, more courage.
[33:04.560 -> 33:06.320] Can you give us, we were talking
[33:06.320 -> 33:11.720] backstage Dave, can you share that example you said of those three values in action,
[33:11.720 -> 33:16.080] that story when you went into the restaurant with the rude waiter. So I think life happens
[33:16.080 -> 33:20.040] and we all become humans and that space between stimulus and response sometimes goes and I
[33:20.040 -> 33:23.280] turned up to a restaurant in London and I wanted to sit outside but the waiter didn't
[33:23.280 -> 33:27.000] want to put me outside, he wanted to put me inside. So my best self didn't
[33:27.000 -> 33:30.440] show up, the younger athlete showed up, no I want to sit outside and we had this
[33:30.440 -> 33:34.880] bit of an argument. So I sat down, eventually get in my way and sat outside
[33:34.880 -> 33:39.600] and I thought that's not who you are. I did a mental journal in my mind, I
[33:39.600 -> 33:42.560] thought that's not the human I want to be, it's not who I hold myself
[33:42.560 -> 33:49.120] accountable to, the values I live. So when he came back to the table, I said, look, I'm very sorry for not being nice. I
[33:49.120 -> 33:53.480] don't think that's who I want to be. And he said, look, don't worry about it. My brother
[33:53.480 -> 33:57.760] just got diagnosed with a brain tumor. I was probably short with you. And I was like, oh,
[33:57.760 -> 34:01.840] I have a tumor too. And the two of us started crying and he was Italian. So we were hugging
[34:01.840 -> 34:07.280] each other and it all got quite emotional and I had a great meal.
[34:07.280 -> 34:07.920] He looked after me.
[34:07.920 -> 34:09.440] But a year later, I went back to the same
[34:09.640 -> 34:14.280] restaurant and he was very rude to me and this is life happening.
[34:14.480 -> 34:17.000] And I said, how's your brother?
[34:17.200 -> 34:20.680] And he stopped in all of the rush and all of the noise.
[34:20.880 -> 34:25.360] And he looked up and he went, David, I have your seat for you.
[34:29.600 -> 34:30.320] Clear the restaurant, bring him in. And for me, it was a great example of compassion,
[34:34.960 -> 34:41.120] of being curious as well. We're all going through stuff and I think it's easy to jump in the car in the morning, go to work and get road raging, cut up people and life happens, right? And I think,
[34:41.120 -> 34:44.880] you know, so many people, it's a little bit cliche, but we are all dealing with stuff. I think
[34:44.880 -> 34:45.120] every one in two people are impacted with cancer., it's a little bit cliche, but we are all dealing with stuff.
[34:45.120 -> 34:49.040] I think if one in two people are impacted with cancer, so it's inevitable you're going
[34:49.040 -> 34:53.880] to come across somebody in your working day that is dealing with something, something
[34:53.880 -> 34:54.880] pretty big.
[34:54.880 -> 34:59.400] And I think for me, that was compassion and awareness and curiosity and also having the
[34:59.400 -> 35:05.200] courage to actually admit when I was being a bit of a, I can't, I don't want to swear, but when I was being a bit of a... I don't want to swear but...
[35:05.200 -> 35:07.200] Say you were a dick, because I want to see you say it.
[35:07.200 -> 35:09.200] When I was being a bit of a dick.
[35:09.200 -> 35:21.200] Thank you for your work.
[35:21.200 -> 35:26.640] I don't want to say it again though.
[35:26.640 -> 35:31.480] I want to touch on this idea of resilience, because I think that when people see you,
[35:31.480 -> 35:35.000] they don't think that you're paralysed, because I think we have a kind of a linear view of
[35:35.000 -> 35:38.840] paralysis. You're either paralysed from the waist down, as my grandfather was, and every
[35:38.840 -> 35:43.120] single time we saw him, every single time, his departing line was, be grateful for your
[35:43.120 -> 35:48.240] legs, which lives with me today. And then we think of paralysis from the neck down
[35:48.760 -> 35:53.020] You are paralyzed people don't see that. Would you mind sharing with us?
[35:53.580 -> 35:59.420] The physical impact on your body today that you are living with every single minute of every single day
[35:59.420 -> 36:03.500] Yeah, so so I'm paralyzed sort of from C2 down which is sort of here
[36:03.500 -> 36:07.760] So I've lost everything on on left arm, the left leg.
[36:07.760 -> 36:09.640] That runs down the whole body.
[36:09.640 -> 36:12.500] And on the right side, I have no feeling.
[36:12.500 -> 36:15.520] So I have to, where you cognitively didn't probably think
[36:15.520 -> 36:17.360] about walking in here today, you might have been
[36:17.360 -> 36:19.680] with the audience for here, you might have been mindful
[36:19.680 -> 36:21.520] of the grass under your feet.
[36:21.520 -> 36:23.760] And coming, I have to constantly think
[36:23.760 -> 36:27.540] of every time I'm standing, where my weight weight is and then that becomes extremely tiring. There's
[36:27.540 -> 36:31.560] times where I will just fall over the signals from the brain to the legs. I
[36:31.560 -> 36:35.240] often think the brain is speaking maybe Chinese and the body speaking English
[36:35.240 -> 36:39.120] and they don't quite communicate and there's sometimes the signals just don't
[36:39.120 -> 36:44.120] go and that can unfortunately in some instances mean that your bowel just
[36:44.120 -> 36:45.760] opens in Tesco while
[36:45.760 -> 36:49.480] you're waiting in the queue, which has happened.
[36:49.480 -> 36:52.880] Or you need the bathroom or your legs just give way and fall over.
[36:52.880 -> 36:56.560] And that makes navigating the world quite challenging.
[36:56.560 -> 37:02.360] Because if I arrive at an airport or in Tesco or wherever, people won't think, oh, this
[37:02.360 -> 37:04.800] guy's paralyzed from the neck down.
[37:04.800 -> 37:05.320] I need to give
[37:05.320 -> 37:10.620] him some way. And it was only yesterday on the tube in London that I was shoved over
[37:10.620 -> 37:14.960] in people trying to get on the train because they don't see it.
[37:14.960 -> 37:20.440] And so it's given me a huge awareness of that people are struggling with things that we
[37:20.440 -> 37:25.920] don't often see. Not every disability is visible, but it's a daily, I guess it's a daily
[37:25.920 -> 37:30.960] reminder of how lucky I am to be alive. There is no escaping it. And I think that's why sport is
[37:30.960 -> 37:37.440] so important to me because when I jump on a bike, I clip into the pedals. I feel for those hours
[37:37.440 -> 37:42.320] that I'm on the bike, I'm cancer free and I'm also paralysis free. It's just me, the bike,
[37:42.320 -> 37:45.360] the mountains. And those moments in the day are
[37:45.360 -> 37:50.440] so beautiful for me and I guess that in many ways is where I do all the mental reflection,
[37:50.440 -> 37:55.720] the mental processing. But there is no escape of the paralysis. I have to go to the bathroom
[37:55.720 -> 38:01.240] sometimes six times a night. So I gave up wearing a sleep tracking because it was so
[38:01.240 -> 38:09.160] shit that it basically told me there's no point, just give up in life. So I had to take it off and so then you know you have the bottle at the edge of the bed,
[38:09.160 -> 38:12.240] sometimes you miss the bottle and you end up peeing all over the room.
[38:12.240 -> 38:17.240] So there's all these things, it's just take constant management and it's relentless and
[38:17.240 -> 38:21.800] to be honest with you there's not a day goes by where I don't type into Google has anyone
[38:21.800 -> 38:24.860] found a cure for spinal cord injury yet.
[38:24.860 -> 38:29.600] So on those difficult days when you wake up in the morning and the first thought is why
[38:29.600 -> 38:34.320] has this happened to me? I used to compete for my country as an elite athlete. What are
[38:34.320 -> 38:37.300] the tools that you employ in those moments?
[38:37.300 -> 38:41.800] So I think for me it was it was dialing down on my values. So again I believe we can train
[38:41.800 -> 38:47.960] three things in life. We can we can train our body which most of us do We train our craft, which may be our sport, our job, our work.
[38:47.960 -> 38:48.960] And then it's our mind.
[38:48.960 -> 38:51.760] And I don't think we're often given the toolkit
[38:51.760 -> 38:53.120] to work with the mind.
[38:53.120 -> 38:56.520] We're given this sort of hardware and software
[38:56.520 -> 38:57.760] that is the mind and the brain.
[38:57.760 -> 38:59.180] And we're sent off into the world
[38:59.180 -> 39:01.280] with everything that's been inputted
[39:01.280 -> 39:03.080] by our parents for the first seven years,
[39:03.080 -> 39:03.840] and then our teachers.
[39:03.840 -> 39:06.160] And that's usually, well, you're not good enough, you're never going to
[39:06.160 -> 39:11.480] get there. I guess in many ways that's why I go back to the karate days and in
[39:11.480 -> 39:16.720] the dojos that I fought in and if I was punched and knocked out it was like I
[39:16.720 -> 39:22.480] had to get back up and go again. And so I think for me on the bad days again I
[39:22.480 -> 39:25.760] connect to how fortunate and lucky I am to be alive.
[39:25.760 -> 39:31.960] I also try to observe my thoughts and feelings and emotions as a watcher with no judgement.
[39:31.960 -> 39:33.840] I try to watch them and accept them.
[39:33.840 -> 39:36.000] It's okay to feel shit.
[39:36.000 -> 39:39.600] I struggled a lot with survivor's guilt to start with because I was going to a spinal
[39:39.600 -> 39:45.840] rehab centre where people were quadriplegic And I felt, why am I feeling bad?
[39:45.840 -> 39:47.140] He's worse off than me.
[39:47.140 -> 39:49.280] That really tortured me for years.
[39:49.280 -> 39:50.880] And then eventually a therapist said to me,
[39:50.880 -> 39:52.920] look, it's relative to you.
[39:52.920 -> 39:54.120] Of course he's going to have a bad day,
[39:54.120 -> 39:56.360] but also you're also going through some shit.
[39:56.360 -> 39:58.080] It's also okay to feel bad.
[39:58.080 -> 40:01.600] And I think accepting those emotions was a big part.
[40:01.600 -> 40:04.560] And then for me, it's having a list of things,
[40:04.560 -> 40:05.480] knowing my values,
[40:05.480 -> 40:08.840] what I really value in life, being in nature, being on my bike, being with
[40:08.840 -> 40:14.440] friends. I liken them to the legs of a chair and they hold me up and if you
[40:14.440 -> 40:19.160] take them away the chair falls down. When all three of them go I won't sit here
[40:19.160 -> 40:22.480] and lie to you. There's days where I don't even leave my bed, I'm banging my
[40:22.480 -> 40:29.900] head on a wall, I'm crying, I'm just like, you know what, I've had enough suffering now, I'm ready to shut my eyes and never open them again.
[40:29.960 -> 40:43.900] And then some way through all of that, my phone maybe goes and someone sends me a message to say, hey, you know, thinking of you or never give up, you inspire me or I just look out and see a simple bird land on a tree and go,
[40:45.540 -> 40:49.920] look out and see a simple bird land on a tree and go, wow, life is so beautiful. And there's people who it's taken too early and they don't have the
[40:49.920 -> 40:53.360] choice. When I started radiotherapy in 2019, a lot of the people I started that
[40:53.360 -> 40:58.260] journey with are no longer alive. And I thought, wow, I actually owe it to them to
[40:58.260 -> 41:02.440] get myself out of this bed and to get living. And I think back to the David in
[41:02.440 -> 41:09.400] the hospital when he's lying in ICU in pain with tubes coming out of him and think, wow, that David would have given anything
[41:09.400 -> 41:16.040] to go out and ride in the rain or just to sit and have a coffee and read a book. So,
[41:16.040 -> 41:19.000] and I think that's the thing with humans. Sometimes we always want more.
[41:19.000 -> 41:24.440] Can you tell us a bit about your relationship with your wife during this period as well?
[41:24.440 -> 41:27.120] Because I can imagine from her point of view she's watching you go
[41:27.120 -> 41:30.400] through this suffering, how does she process it?
[41:30.400 -> 41:36.040] My family, it's hard for the family you bring on the journey because I
[41:36.040 -> 41:41.520] think when it's happening to you, you kind of have to find acceptance, you
[41:41.520 -> 41:45.120] deal with it but when the family are watching on, I think it's
[41:45.120 -> 41:49.500] really hard because they want to help and then they inevitably say the
[41:49.500 -> 41:55.080] wrong things mostly, like just be positive, that usually drives me mad, or
[41:55.080 -> 42:00.360] everything's going to be okay, which also usually drives me mad. And then it's
[42:00.360 -> 42:04.440] going back to Viktor Frankl's stimulus-based response and me sitting in that
[42:04.440 -> 42:08.840] space and being like, well how do I get the people around me to come on the journey that they
[42:08.840 -> 42:10.480] give me the best support?
[42:10.480 -> 42:15.960] So it's a little bit of education, but I've watched friends, loved ones fall apart.
[42:15.960 -> 42:20.560] I had an army friend on the phone two weeks ago and he couldn't even speak to me.
[42:20.560 -> 42:21.560] He was in tears.
[42:21.560 -> 42:22.560] He broke down on the phone.
[42:22.560 -> 42:24.280] I was like, hey, it's happening to me, not you.
[42:24.280 -> 42:28.960] But I realized that everyone's different. And I think for me, it's brought everyone so much closer.
[42:28.960 -> 42:34.640] And I think that it's given me such a great appreciation of time that when I'm with you,
[42:34.640 -> 42:40.560] I'm with you. So when I'm with you, I'm not on a phone. And this is, I think, what my loved ones
[42:40.560 -> 42:46.640] have taken from this is that, you know, when we're together, I'm with you, I'm listening to you,
[42:46.640 -> 42:51.280] I'm hearing you, I'm not just sitting listening to reply or looking at my phone and doing a
[42:51.280 -> 42:56.160] thousand things. And I think if you leave with anything today, leave with that. We're addicted
[42:56.160 -> 43:02.000] in the dopamine rush to our devices. When you're with your friends and loved ones, really be with
[43:02.000 -> 43:08.320] them, put this stuff away. And I think that's probably if I can leave anything with my family, that's
[43:08.320 -> 43:10.040] been the biggest lesson from all of this.
[43:10.040 -> 43:11.600] So it's, it's been hard for them.
[43:11.760 -> 43:16.120] And I think it always will be because my tumour is never, well,
[43:16.120 -> 43:17.360] I say never going to go away.
[43:17.360 -> 43:21.480] It's something I live with for, for every, every living breath I take.
[43:21.480 -> 43:24.120] So it's something that I have to navigate with, with my loved ones.
[43:24.600 -> 43:26.320] Picking up on the conversation you had with your
[43:26.760 -> 43:30.760] Your friend who's in the military who was in tears and you were having to say to him on the phone on
[43:31.080 -> 43:33.080] I'm the one living this life, you know
[43:34.520 -> 43:41.160] Often it can be so hard for other people because they don't have any control over over this whereas you at least have some
[43:41.840 -> 43:49.080] Element of how you react to what's going on? And I guess that conversation revolved around your most recent diagnosis.
[43:49.080 -> 43:54.560] Would you mind sharing with us where this story is at at the moment?
[43:54.560 -> 43:59.940] So I had fought for radiotherapy my whole, for the last 13 years, and eventually I got
[43:59.940 -> 44:02.560] radiotherapy in 2019.
[44:02.560 -> 44:06.240] And from every scan for the last four or five years have
[44:06.240 -> 44:10.560] been clear. So the tumor had sort of just died and it was there and I was sort of
[44:10.560 -> 44:16.500] I guess falling back into life and trying to chase goals and just living
[44:16.500 -> 44:22.280] and then there was a little scan cropped up. It was done in May and I sat in
[44:22.280 -> 44:29.680] oncology a few weeks ago and they said, look, there's a little nodule growing. I hate that word. As soon as I heard that word, I was like,
[44:29.680 -> 44:35.040] oh my God. At that point, I got on a plane and went to Pakistan and then went and hid in the
[44:35.040 -> 44:40.320] Himalayas for 10 days. But I realized that Haydn is not going to solve the problem. I have to come
[44:40.320 -> 44:45.440] back and face this. And then I was like, how do I tell people? This is the fifth time,
[44:49.920 -> 44:55.680] I don't really know, they've already done radiotherapy. I was like, oh man, how do I even navigate this? And I put a little bit of a cryptic message out on social media and the people who had
[44:55.680 -> 44:59.520] been on the journey the whole time picked up the phone right away and went, what's up? And
[45:00.080 -> 45:04.240] my army friend was one of them and he burst into tears and then he cried and then he sort of phoned
[45:04.240 -> 45:06.880] someone else and said, look, you need to go and see Dave. So the next day someone came
[45:06.880 -> 45:10.800] and visited me and said, look, I'm here to, Dan couldn't speak to you, but I'm here. And
[45:12.000 -> 45:16.480] again, for me, I didn't want to say anything to anyone because I was just kind of suffering
[45:16.480 -> 45:20.400] silence. And then I was like, no, I'm going to need my friends more than probably ever.
[45:21.040 -> 45:25.320] And to be honest with you, I could probably just start crying now. I
[45:25.320 -> 45:34.480] don't want to die. And it's scary to deal with it and know that it's going to happen
[45:34.480 -> 45:41.280] again. There has to be a level of acceptance of mortality within it all, and just to make
[45:41.280 -> 45:45.440] peace with that. I'm the only Scotsman that doesn't drink alcohol, but I have a beautiful
[45:45.440 -> 45:52.000] 18 year old bottle of Glenfiddich in my house in Scotland and I'm actually en route to get
[45:52.000 -> 45:58.280] that bottle of whiskey now to go and sit with my friends because I realise that in many
[45:58.280 -> 46:02.280] ways it's a gift because sometimes we don't really get to sit and be with our friends
[46:02.280 -> 46:08.560] and maybe say goodbyes and stuff. And for this I'm going to go and knock on some doors and sit and open this bottle of whiskey and
[46:09.600 -> 46:13.600] sit and just share some stories. Because I realize at the end all we have is memories
[46:13.600 -> 46:17.440] and memories are made from experiences and we don't really have experiences if we don't learn
[46:17.440 -> 46:23.040] to savour the moment. And savouring the moment for me is about being where your feet are and
[46:23.040 -> 46:27.720] being in the present moment. And I think that's how I'm dealing with the current situation.
[46:27.720 -> 46:33.320] So how long did the doctor say that your life expects? They won't give me a
[46:33.320 -> 46:36.960] number on that. I did ask that question, I thought it was an appropriate question
[46:36.960 -> 46:41.800] to ask. What can they do? They can do surgery again, so that would be surgery
[46:41.800 -> 46:48.320] number seven. They said radiotherapy would maybe buy me six months but you know I went away and I think now that I
[46:48.320 -> 46:52.000] don't have my mom's medical book to look for I do have Google. I typed it straight
[46:52.000 -> 46:56.120] in Google and the answers came up right away. There's a new thing moving the
[46:56.120 -> 46:59.560] medical world so fast. There's a new treatment in Germany called carbon ion
[46:59.560 -> 47:03.400] therapy so I'm going to head to Germany very soon to have discussions with
[47:03.400 -> 47:08.040] doctors there to be like you know is this something that they think would work?
[47:08.040 -> 47:13.040] And you know, we have 18,600 seconds in a day if that's right, if my math is right.
[47:13.040 -> 47:16.360] I just want to live all of those seconds.
[47:16.360 -> 47:19.960] And I'm very clear in my values and my philosophy for life.
[47:19.960 -> 47:23.640] And if I can just get the most out of them, and I've wrestled with the question right
[47:23.640 -> 47:26.160] now, would I rather live 50 years but live
[47:26.160 -> 47:30.760] every day or live to 100 and have not lived any days?
[47:30.760 -> 47:32.960] And I don't know if I'm scared of death.
[47:32.960 -> 47:36.080] I am scared of death, but I'm also scared of not living.
[47:36.080 -> 47:39.600] So for me at the moment, it's just like, how do I get the most out of life?
[47:39.600 -> 47:40.720] Who do I spend time with?
[47:40.720 -> 47:45.160] How can I influence people's life to go out, smash it, enjoy every one
[47:45.160 -> 47:50.440] of those seconds, every one of those breaths and just, you know, can I say balls, grab
[47:50.440 -> 47:51.440] life by the balls?
[47:51.440 -> 47:57.720] I made the most of it and, you know, and be with friends.
[47:57.720 -> 48:02.660] I know that Johnny McAvoy's been on, you guys are friends with Johnny McAvoy and he's someone
[48:02.660 -> 48:05.000] who reminds me of this daily about making the most of
[48:05.000 -> 48:08.840] life and for me he's someone that I always look at and think, well here's a guy who's
[48:08.840 -> 48:14.040] very clear in his values and lives them every day and I think as long as I'm doing that,
[48:14.040 -> 48:18.040] the time I have left here is irrelevant as long as I'm living by those values.
[48:18.040 -> 48:30.400] That has been the most inspiring conversation we ever could have had. Thank you so much for sitting with us here at the Happy Place Festival.
[48:30.400 -> 48:33.720] Damian.
[48:33.720 -> 48:36.840] Jake.
[48:36.840 -> 48:44.280] I think the standing ovation that David got at the end of that conversation at the Happy
[48:44.280 -> 48:45.480] Place Festival
[48:45.480 -> 48:48.800] says all that needs to be said almost, doesn't it?
[48:48.800 -> 48:53.480] Yeah, I think even when he was talking and we were looking around the audience, there was
[48:53.480 -> 48:59.080] people in tears, there was people visibly moved by his message because
[48:59.080 -> 49:04.880] he is the perfect messenger to tell us about how do we live even when we're facing death.
[49:04.880 -> 49:09.800] And that's really what this is about. This is about someone who knows that
[49:09.800 -> 49:14.760] unless he finds some alternative treatment, as you explained to us, his
[49:14.760 -> 49:20.240] life is severely limited. And all we can do, right, in many ways, like for people
[49:20.240 -> 49:23.540] to listen to that and think, oh I feel for him, like, you know, he has my
[49:23.540 -> 49:25.980] sympathy. That's useless to him.
[49:25.980 -> 49:27.740] And it's actually useless for us as well.
[49:27.740 -> 49:32.460] This is about us as listeners to this podcast who have our health and who, you know, as
[49:32.460 -> 49:39.420] far as we're aware, have time to realize the value of what we've got and not throw this
[49:39.420 -> 49:46.600] away because none of us want to be woken up to what life really is by having a diagnosis like David's had.
[49:46.600 -> 49:50.400] We need to realize that right now, the beauty in those little things that he spoke about.
[49:50.400 -> 49:56.200] And if someone with a terminal diagnosis can find the happiness, then it should be there for all of us.
[49:56.200 -> 50:01.000] Definitely, and I think that was a big reason why David's made himself so vulnerable,
[50:01.000 -> 50:05.440] such a, like, heartbreaking time of of his life to come and share this
[50:05.440 -> 50:09.840] story and to share the lessons isn't because he wants your sympathy, it's
[50:09.840 -> 50:14.520] because he wants you to understand all of us that life is there for living. When
[50:14.520 -> 50:18.240] he talks about the simple things of when you're with somebody don't be on your
[50:18.240 -> 50:22.240] phone connect with them. I appreciate the joy of going out for a bike ride and
[50:22.240 -> 50:25.560] just seeing the countryside around you,
[50:25.560 -> 50:27.560] the waiter in the restaurant,
[50:27.560 -> 50:31.440] just trying to connect rather than dismissing as being rude.
[50:31.440 -> 50:34.240] These are all opportunities for us to really embrace
[50:34.240 -> 50:38.720] the full spectrum of emotions that life has available
[50:38.720 -> 50:40.800] and on offer to all of us.
[50:40.800 -> 50:44.160] And you and I are recording this little conversation
[50:44.160 -> 50:46.800] after we've had the chat with David because
[50:46.800 -> 50:49.600] it was done on stage and we had to leave the stage. And actually as we left the stage I
[50:49.600 -> 50:54.280] had a quick chat with him and he said, you know what, I really don't want people to think
[50:54.280 -> 50:58.440] that they've got loads of time and I haven't. You know, we were talking about the fact that
[50:58.440 -> 51:02.560] actually none of us have very much time. Even if he lives, let's say another six months,
[51:02.560 -> 51:07.280] and maybe I live another 30 years, right? By right but i get to the end of those thirty years.
[51:07.740 -> 51:21.900] I will be able to go wow that thirty years went by in the blink of an eye in the same way that his six months ago by in the blink of an eye i think we trick ourselves into thinking of so much time but you and i are in our forties right how long ago were we in our twenties.
[51:22.020 -> 51:30.960] The blink of an eye how long ago were we turning ten when we get yours? The blink of an eye. How long ago were we turning 10? Remember getting your 10th birthday card? Blink of an eye. You'll now be in your late 70s in the same blink
[51:30.960 -> 51:36.080] of an eye. And I think it's really important to say that because I think people go, well,
[51:36.080 -> 51:39.760] I've got at least another 50 years left, so I'll start to enjoy it towards the end. But for now,
[51:39.760 -> 51:48.360] I've got jobs and mortgages and of course I know all all that stuff is there but it goes by quick. Yeah and there's a palliative care nurse called Bronnie Ware
[51:48.360 -> 51:53.000] that's written a really beautiful book called the top five regrets of the dying
[51:53.000 -> 51:59.040] that went and interviewed patients that were facing similar terminal diagnosis
[51:59.040 -> 52:04.120] the regrets of the dying were all around things like I wish I'd spent more time
[52:04.120 -> 52:08.360] with the people I loved I wish I hadn't have stressed about things that weren't
[52:08.360 -> 52:12.880] worth investing that time in, I wish I'd have made the time to actually seek
[52:12.880 -> 52:17.340] happiness. There was nothing in there about that would cost us money, it just
[52:17.340 -> 52:21.440] cost us a little bit of focus and a little bit of our time and I think
[52:21.440 -> 52:26.000] that's the key message that I'd encourage anyone to take away from
[52:26.000 -> 52:28.400] David. I know I certainly have.
[52:28.400 -> 52:33.200] Yeah, and of course, huge thanks to David for joining us on High Performance, sharing
[52:33.200 -> 52:39.240] so much with us and we wish him the very best with his journey as he looks to find a treatment
[52:39.240 -> 52:43.740] to extend his life. Damien, thank you.
[52:43.740 -> 52:50.720] Thank you, Jake. It was a privilege. This one. Absolutely. Thanks a lot, David. You're a true inspiration. Um, and your messages
[52:50.720 -> 52:55.520] I know will have helped so many people who've just listened to this podcast. Thank you,
[52:55.520 -> 53:02.160] mate. So there we go. Um, if you could do one favor for me and the high performance
[53:02.160 -> 53:08.560] team, it would be to share this episode with somebody. I think that we all need a reminder sometimes of actually what we've got rather than what
[53:08.560 -> 53:09.560] we haven't got.
[53:09.560 -> 53:13.400] I don't mind how you do it, but I would love this episode to be heard by as many people
[53:13.400 -> 53:14.400] as possible.
[53:14.400 -> 53:16.860] I believe that David deserves that.
[53:16.860 -> 53:22.520] And I hope that whatever is going on in your life, this episode gives you some energy,
[53:22.520 -> 53:28.040] it gives you some perspective as well. And David, thank you so much once again for giving up your time.
[53:28.680 -> 53:32.320] Don't forget, you can also watch this conversation with David on YouTube, and
[53:32.320 -> 53:35.160] if you're going to hit subscribe, that's really helpful for us.
[53:35.680 -> 53:38.640] Thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you again soon for another
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