E87 - Alastair Campbell: What I've learnt about winning in politics, sport and business

Alastair Campbell is a writer, communicator and strategist best known for his role as former British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s spokesman, press secretary and director of communications and strategy. 

Alastair has written seventeen books including a Number 1 best-selling analysis of what it takes to win in politics, business and sport, Winners and How They Succeed, and two personal memoirs on depression and the pursuit of happiness. 

His latest, Living Better: How I learned to survive depression, was also a Sunday Times best-seller.

. . . . . . . 

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Pre-order our audiobook ‘Lessons From the Best on Becoming Your Best’: https://adbl.co/3xQQSCF 

Get a special signed copy, out Dec 9th: https://bit.ly/3kCqhFp

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Thank you to our founding partner Lotus Cars. Check them out at lotuscars.com 

Thanks also to GIVEMESPORT - the exclusive sports partner of the High Performance Podcast. To gain further access to editorial and social content from the Podcast click here https://www.givemesport.com/podcast

WARNING - This episode contains some explicit language

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sure, here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript:

**Introduction of Alastair Campbell**

* Alastair Campbell is a writer, communicator, and strategist best known for his role as former British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s spokesman, press secretary, and director of communications and strategy.
* Campbell has written seventeen books, including a Number 1 best-selling analysis of what it takes to win in politics, business, and sport, Winners and How They Succeed, and two personal memoirs on depression and the pursuit of happiness.
* His latest book, Living Better: How I learned to survive depression, was also a Sunday Times best-seller.

**High Performance Live Podcast Tour 2022**

* Campbell is embarking on a High Performance Live Podcast Tour in 2022.
* Tickets and a special signed copy of his book, Lessons From the Best on Becoming Your Best, are available for purchase.

**Sponsors**

* The podcast is sponsored by Lotus Cars and GIVEMESPORT.

**Disclaimer**

* The podcast contains some explicit language.

**Conversation with Alastair Campbell**

* Campbell discusses his experience working at the heart of the British government and his insights on high performance.
* He emphasizes the importance of setting big, bold objectives and working out a strategy to achieve them.
* Campbell introduces the concept of OST (Objective, Strategy, and Tactics) and explains how it can be applied to various aspects of life, including politics, business, and personal development.
* He shares examples of successful individuals, such as Lance Armstrong and Bill Clinton, and analyzes their strategies for achieving their goals.
* Campbell also highlights the significance of strategy, leadership, and teamwork (SLT) and emphasizes the need for all three elements to work together effectively.
* He discusses the challenges of balancing personal and professional life, particularly in high-pressure environments, and acknowledges the potential sacrifices that may be necessary.
* Campbell reflects on the importance of selfishness in achieving high performance and acknowledges the potential negative consequences of this trait.
* He shares advice from Alex Ferguson on dealing with conflict and stress, emphasizing the need to focus on the objective and make quick decisions.
* Campbell highlights the influence of Dave Brailsford, former performance director of British Cycling, and his philosophy of setting ambitious goals and working systematically to achieve them.

**Conclusion**

* Campbell emphasizes the importance of communication and strategy in achieving high performance.
* He encourages listeners to think big, set clear objectives, and develop effective strategies to achieve their goals.

**Additional Notes**

* The podcast episode is hosted on Acast.
* The transcript is generated automatically and may contain errors.

**End of Summary**

I hope this summary is informative and engaging. Please let me know if you have any questions.

# Podcast Episode Summary: Navigating Pressure, Mental Health, and Authenticity in High-Performance Environments

In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, host Jake Humphrey engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Alastair Campbell, a renowned writer, communicator, and strategist known for his role as Tony Blair's spokesman, press secretary, and director of communications and strategy. Campbell shares his insights on pressure, mental health, and authenticity in high-performance environments, drawing from his experiences in politics, sports, and personal life.

## Pressure and Mental Health

- Campbell emphasizes the significance of pressure in high-performance settings, acknowledging that it can be both a motivator and a source of anxiety.

- He highlights the importance of distinguishing between pressure, which can lead to improved performance, and stress, which can be detrimental.

- Campbell shares his personal experience with anxiety and depression, emphasizing the importance of seeking professional help and developing coping mechanisms.

- He discusses the concept of the "jam jar," a metaphor for managing one's mental health by nurturing various aspects of life, including relationships, meaningful activities, and personal interests.

## Authenticity and Leadership

- Campbell stresses the value of authenticity in leadership, asserting that people can sense when someone is not being genuine.

- He emphasizes the need for leaders to be true to themselves and their values, even in challenging situations.

- Campbell discusses the importance of developing a strong narrative about oneself, which can help guide decision-making and shape one's life.

- He reflects on the narratives of powerful figures like Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Angela Merkel, and Vladimir Putin, exploring the common threads and differences in their leadership styles.

## Authenticity in Politics

- Campbell expresses his admiration for Boris Johnson's ability to connect with voters, despite disagreeing with his politics.

- He emphasizes the importance of authenticity in politics, arguing that voters can sense when a politician is being genuine.

- Campbell criticizes the current state of British politics, expressing concern about the prevalence of lying and the erosion of trust.

## Key Takeaways

- Pressure can be a motivator but should be distinguished from stress, which can be harmful.

- Mental health challenges are common and should be addressed with professional help and coping mechanisms.

- Authenticity is crucial in leadership, and leaders should strive to be true to themselves and their values.

- Developing a strong narrative about oneself can guide decision-making and shape one's life.

- Authenticity in politics is important, and voters can sense when a politician is being genuine.

# High Performance Podcast: Alastair Campbell

In this episode of the High-Performance Podcast, host Damien Farrow engages in a captivating conversation with Alastair Campbell, a renowned writer, strategist, and former spokesperson for British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Campbell, known for his expertise in communication, strategy, and leadership, delves into various aspects of high performance, drawing upon his experiences in politics, sports, and personal life.

**Key Insights from the Podcast:**

1. **The Art of Saying No and Respectfully Disagreeing:**

- Campbell emphasizes the importance of mastering the art of saying no and respectfully disagreeing with people without causing collateral damage. He highlights that this skill is crucial for effective decision-making and maintaining harmonious relationships within teams and organizations.

2. **Strategy as the Foundation of High Performance:**

- Campbell stresses the significance of having a clear strategic framework as the foundation for high performance. He believes that with a well-defined strategy, most decisions become more straightforward, narrowing down the choices and enabling leaders to focus on the most critical priorities.

3. **The Intersection of Personal and Political:**

- Campbell reflects on the challenges of navigating personal and political dilemmas. He shares instances where his personal beliefs and values clashed with political necessities, leading to difficult choices and moral dilemmas.

4. **The Mindset of Winners in Sports:**

- Campbell draws parallels between the mindset of winners in sports and the mindset required for success in other areas of life. He observes that sportspeople often possess a unique ability to recognize what is needed to put themselves in the best position to win and have the capacity to execute it relentlessly.

5. **The Importance of Mental Health and Resilience:**

- Campbell candidly discusses his personal struggles with mental health and highlights the importance of resilience in overcoming challenges. He emphasizes that resilience can be cultivated through various experiences, including personal setbacks, family circumstances, and dealing with adversity.

6. **Creativity and Mood Swings:**

- Campbell reveals that his mood swings have significantly influenced his creativity. He notes that some of his best work often emerges from periods of depression or emotional turmoil.

7. **The Trade-Off Between Success and Happiness:**

- Campbell acknowledges that extreme success and creativity often come with a trade-off in terms of personal happiness. He observes that many individuals who achieve remarkable success may struggle with personal fulfillment and well-being.

8. **The Role of Luck in Success:**

- Campbell acknowledges the role of luck in achieving success. He emphasizes that while hard work, dedication, and strategy are essential, there is still an element of chance that can impact outcomes.

9. **Non-Negotiable Behaviors for High-Performance Teams:**

- Campbell outlines three non-negotiable behaviors that he believes are essential for creating high-performance teams:
- Obsession with winning and understanding that it is not a dirty word.
- Absolute openness and honesty with each other, fostering a culture of trust and transparency.
- Egalitarianism, where ideas come from anyone, regardless of their position or seniority.

10. **Advice for Aspiring High Performers:**

- Campbell advises aspiring high performers to avoid excessive drinking and substance abuse, as these habits can hinder their potential.
- He encourages them to keep their horizons broad and not limit their aspirations.
- He emphasizes the importance of hard work and dedication, particularly during university years, as this period is crucial for developing intellectual abilities.

11. **Book Recommendation:**

- Campbell recommends reading the biography of German goalkeeper Robert Enke, who struggled with depression and eventually committed suicide. He highlights the book's insights into the complexities of high performance and the challenges faced by individuals who achieve remarkable success.

12. **Legacy and Strategy:**

- Campbell downplays the importance of legacy, stating that he is more focused on making a meaningful contribution in the present, particularly in the area of mental health. He emphasizes the significance of strategy, considering it the foundation for achieving high performance and positive outcomes.

13. **Golden Rule for Living a High-Performance Life:**

- Campbell's golden rule for living a high-performance life is "Strategy is God." He believes that having a clear and well-defined strategy is paramount for achieving success and overcoming challenges.

Throughout the podcast, Campbell shares valuable insights from his diverse experiences, offering a unique perspective on the mindset, behaviors, and strategies that contribute to high performance in various fields. His candid reflections on mental health, resilience, and the pursuit of success provide listeners with a thought-provoking and inspiring conversation.

The episode features Alastair Campbell, a writer, communicator, and strategist, who shares his insights on mental health, high performance, and the importance of self-awareness and resilience.

Campbell emphasizes that mental health struggles are not a sign of weakness and that many successful individuals have faced mental health challenges. He highlights the examples of Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Darwin, Florence Nightingale, and Marie Curie, all of whom struggled with mental health issues but made significant contributions to their respective fields.

Campbell discusses the importance of recognizing and addressing mental health problems and encourages people to seek help if they are struggling. He also emphasizes the value of self-awareness and the ability to understand and manage one's own emotions and thoughts.

The conversation touches on the concept of "objective, strategy, tactics" (OST), which Campbell describes as a framework for setting clear objectives, developing effective strategies, and implementing appropriate tactics to achieve desired outcomes. He highlights the importance of adaptability and the ability to adjust tactics based on changing circumstances.

Campbell also discusses the importance of resilience and perseverance in the face of challenges. He emphasizes the need to learn from setbacks and failures and to use them as opportunities for growth and development.

Overall, the episode provides valuable insights into the importance of mental health, self-awareness, resilience, and the pursuit of high performance. Campbell's personal experiences and perspectives offer a unique and thought-provoking perspective on these topics.

[00:00.000 -> 00:04.000] Welcome to the High Performance Podcast.
[00:04.000 -> 00:05.000] Go on.
[00:05.000 -> 00:10.080] I can't say anything else, I'm too busy, goodbye.
[00:10.080 -> 00:15.560] That's Florence, my daughter, attempting to introduce this week's High Performance Podcast.
[00:15.560 -> 00:18.720] Do you know what, I think we should get straight into it this week because we've got a brilliant
[00:18.720 -> 00:22.240] episode with a man who has spent his life at the heart of government.
[00:22.240 -> 00:26.480] Flo, what you need to just do is say, here's what to expect on today's episode.
[00:26.480 -> 00:26.960] Go on.
[00:26.960 -> 00:29.600] Here's what to expect on today's episode.
[00:29.600 -> 00:30.400] Very good.
[00:30.400 -> 00:32.400] Hope you're all having a great half term as well.
[00:34.640 -> 00:37.760] I get called liar every day on social media about Iraq,
[00:37.760 -> 00:40.880] 45 minutes to dodge dossier, every single day.
[00:41.760 -> 00:43.520] And I know I didn't lie,
[00:44.400 -> 00:45.840] but that's never going to make any difference
[00:45.840 -> 00:53.560] to the people who say that. So I think strategy is the most important. And in a well-functioning
[00:53.560 -> 00:58.520] organisation you won't have got to the top unless you're good at that. But sadly I think
[00:58.520 -> 01:10.780] a lot of organisations, people do get to the top who aren't good at that. And I think building the team is, you know, it's fundamental. 1997, the first election, which should have been one of the happiest days
[01:10.780 -> 01:17.680] of my life, I was, I was honestly, I was miserable. And I think it was partly you've worked on
[01:17.680 -> 01:21.400] this for years and years and years and years and now it's gone. Everybody defined it as
[01:21.400 -> 01:28.960] euphoria. I didn't feel that at all, any level. It's a really interesting conversation this one. I hope you take a lot from it. I hope
[01:28.960 -> 01:34.480] you grab a pen and paper and you make some notes. Thank you so much to Alistair for agreeing to be
[01:34.480 -> 01:39.520] on today's episode. Yeah, so you've heard from Florence, you've had a little taste of what to
[01:39.520 -> 01:45.000] expect from Alistair. In about one minute's's time today's high performance podcast episode
[01:45.000 -> 01:49.800] will begin and I hope you love it
[01:50.120 -> 01:53.920] before we get going with today's episode of the podcast I just want to say a
[01:53.920 -> 01:58.280] really big thank you to Lotus cars you probably know by now that I wear quite a
[01:58.280 -> 02:02.320] few different hats and one of those is that I'm the chairman of a brilliant
[02:02.320 -> 02:10.220] charity in Norfolk called the Community Sport Foundation. Lotus gave us a final edition Lotus Elise, the very
[02:10.220 -> 02:15.080] first one off the production line and then we sold tickets and we raffled the
[02:15.080 -> 02:18.620] car off. Tickets were nine pounds each and Lotus helped us raise for the
[02:18.620 -> 02:27.400] charity over £100,000. It's an amazing charity that tries to change people's lives through the power of sport and
[02:27.640 -> 02:35.160] We will change so many lives because the generosity of Lotus so everyone at Lotus cars you helped us raise over
[02:35.640 -> 02:37.640] 100,000 pounds. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
[02:37.640 -> 02:40.800] So so much for your kindness and your generosity
[02:41.000 -> 02:48.880] And if you want to find out more about Lotus then just check out Lotus cars.com or follow them at Lotus cars they are the founding
[02:48.880 -> 02:53.360] partners of the high-performance podcast.
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[05:32.560 -> 05:40.320] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance, the podcast that delves
[05:40.320 -> 05:44.760] into the minds of some of the most successful athletes, visionaries, entrepreneurs and artists
[05:44.760 -> 05:47.660] on the planet and aims to unlock the very secrets to
[05:47.660 -> 05:52.060] their success. Professor Damien Hughes is with me as ever and look Damien this is
[05:52.060 -> 05:54.220] really going to be a conversation I think where we talk a lot about
[05:54.220 -> 05:58.180] communication. We do it every day, it's fundamental to our lives yet a
[05:58.180 -> 06:02.060] remarkable number of people struggle with something that seems so basic,
[06:02.060 -> 06:06.240] communication. Absolutely I think it's the foremost excuse
[06:06.240 -> 06:08.440] that people give for marriage breakdowns,
[06:08.440 -> 06:12.480] you know, political disputes, workplace troubles,
[06:12.480 -> 06:15.240] or often lack of communication skills
[06:15.240 -> 06:16.840] that seems so obvious.
[06:16.840 -> 06:18.320] So no, I'm really looking forward to it
[06:18.320 -> 06:20.800] in its relation to high performance, Jake.
[06:20.800 -> 06:21.640] Absolutely.
[06:21.640 -> 06:22.640] Come on then, let's get into this.
[06:22.640 -> 06:23.960] What did today's guest learn
[06:23.960 -> 06:28.480] from being responsible for communication in the very heart of the British government?
[06:28.480 -> 06:33.600] Why is he so obsessed with winning? He studied it for years. What even is winning?
[06:33.600 -> 06:36.280] How can obsession be both a blessing and a curse?
[06:36.280 -> 06:38.320] We're delighted to be sitting here now
[06:38.320 -> 06:44.080] If you ask me to name my top five books a book that this man wrote would be right up there at the very top
[06:44.080 -> 06:48.100] So it's a real pleasure to finally get the chance to have a proper conversation in person
[06:48.100 -> 06:51.900] with the man who wrote winners and has met plenty of them and hopefully he can
[06:51.900 -> 06:55.240] share some of his insights with us now Alistair Campbell welcome to the
[06:55.240 -> 06:58.280] High Performance Podcast. Thank you and if it wasn't the paperback was already out
[06:58.280 -> 07:03.400] we'd have used it as a quote on the paper. Well listen if people haven't read it let me
[07:03.400 -> 07:05.160] give it one more plug. They absolutely should.
[07:05.160 -> 07:06.160] It's a brilliant book.
[07:06.160 -> 07:09.160] It's, it centers around high performance, obviously.
[07:09.160 -> 07:12.600] So from all the things you've learned, all the people you've spoken to, the experiences
[07:12.600 -> 07:16.080] that you've had, what is high performance?
[07:16.080 -> 07:23.240] I think it's setting really big, bold objectives and then working out what you need to get
[07:23.240 -> 07:25.000] there and doing it.
[07:25.200 -> 07:27.560] Now, obviously, that has to be realistic.
[07:27.560 -> 07:29.680] I couldn't run a four-minute mile,
[07:29.680 -> 07:32.520] so I wouldn't ever set myself that objective.
[07:32.520 -> 07:35.120] But I might, if I did, I might set myself the goal
[07:35.120 -> 07:36.800] of running a four-hour marathon,
[07:36.800 -> 07:39.080] because that would be ambitious
[07:39.080 -> 07:40.920] but realistic for when I did it.
[07:40.920 -> 07:44.100] So I think it's that combination of what are the goals,
[07:44.100 -> 07:45.880] how far can you push them,
[07:45.880 -> 07:48.880] and then do you have the wherewithal to meet them?
[07:48.880 -> 07:49.920] Well, let's talk about meeting them,
[07:49.920 -> 07:52.000] because I think most people listening to this
[07:52.000 -> 07:54.220] can think of an objective they'd love to achieve,
[07:54.220 -> 07:56.480] but getting there is often the stumbling block for people.
[07:56.480 -> 07:58.120] And you talk about, in Winners,
[07:58.120 -> 07:59.680] you talk about the three most important letters
[07:59.680 -> 08:03.160] in the alphabet, O, S, and T.
[08:03.160 -> 08:04.560] Would you mind explaining those to people
[08:04.560 -> 08:07.620] and why they are so fundamental
[08:07.620 -> 08:11.020] to not just setting the goal but achieving it as well?
[08:11.020 -> 08:15.500] Because well O is objective, S is strategy and T is tactics and I think particularly
[08:15.500 -> 08:20.740] in the modern world because the pressures are all to be tactical 24-7 media, social
[08:20.740 -> 08:26.640] media, instant gratification, all that stuff. I think people tend to go very tactical
[08:26.640 -> 08:28.800] when actually the response to that change world
[08:28.800 -> 08:30.720] should be to be more strategic.
[08:30.720 -> 08:35.200] So O, set the objective, S, work out the strategy,
[08:35.200 -> 08:38.080] and only really go tactical when you've got those two
[08:38.080 -> 08:40.320] in working in harness.
[08:40.320 -> 08:42.360] It's interesting, you know, we're meeting at a time
[08:42.360 -> 08:44.360] where Mourinho is back in the news again.
[08:44.360 -> 08:52.140] I focused on him as my sort of in-depth study of strategy because he has a completely different model of strategy
[08:52.720 -> 08:57.660] But he said that to him strategy and tactics are interchangeable. Yeah, and that's kind of anathema to me
[08:57.660 -> 09:02.220] I just I think that the reason I think we're in such a mess as a country is because
[09:02.860 -> 09:05.040] David Cameron never had a
[09:05.040 -> 09:09.720] strategy for Europe for Britain Europe so he decided to have a tactic of a
[09:09.720 -> 09:13.400] refer calling a referendum to try and keep his party in his government
[09:13.400 -> 09:18.800] together won the election had to have the referendum tactic imploded he's now
[09:18.800 -> 09:22.960] gone we're Johnson's in charge and I think we're in a bit of a mess so that
[09:22.960 -> 09:28.840] to me is a classic confusion of strategy and tactics, but Mourinho's view was that as a coach
[09:29.560 -> 09:33.680] he builds a tactical model for every football game that he plays and
[09:34.640 -> 09:37.600] Strategy to him is what he does when his model is not working
[09:38.160 -> 09:42.320] Now that's a very different way of thinking about it's more a kind of that's more kind of war
[09:43.000 -> 09:47.980] You know war approach what you what you'd expect on the battlefield and that's obviously where his mindset is
[09:48.100 -> 09:52.660] But I see it for you know business for academia, whatever it might be
[09:53.260 -> 09:58.560] What are you trying to achieve and then work out the strategy for me is like I've called the big how
[09:58.960 -> 10:02.980] It's the big how it's not a little bits. It's the so I've resin in
[10:03.640 -> 10:05.800] politics new labor
[10:09.880 -> 10:10.280] Modernization that was the strategy wasn't just a slogan. It was the strategy
[10:14.060 -> 10:14.160] Everything had to be about modernization and the tactics all flow from that
[10:19.240 -> 10:24.560] So if Jose Mourinho someone you've looked at and thought wow, that's kind of totally different to my thinking Who have you met over the years where they've spoken about how they marry strategy and tactic and you think they've got it. Absolutely
[10:26.480 -> 10:33.120] bang on. The one that pops into the mind straightaway as you said that I'm afraid was Lance Armstrong.
[10:33.120 -> 10:35.120] Oh no!
[10:35.120 -> 10:45.000] But I interviewed him a few times and I'll be honest I was such a fan that I was blind to what I should have been,
[10:45.720 -> 10:47.000] the signals I should have been reading.
[10:47.000 -> 10:47.880] Was there signals then?
[10:47.880 -> 10:49.560] Because I've often looked at journalists and thought,
[10:49.560 -> 10:51.920] how have they not spotted what's going on?
[10:51.920 -> 10:53.480] Oh yeah, well, there are only signals
[10:53.480 -> 10:54.560] when I see them in retrospect,
[10:54.560 -> 10:56.760] so I'll give you the best example.
[10:56.760 -> 10:58.880] So like, you see something like him,
[10:58.880 -> 11:02.880] and you know, David Miller, another cyclist who I spoke to,
[11:02.880 -> 11:04.440] and he said, the problem with you and me, he said,
[11:04.440 -> 11:07.520] is we're kind of like, we're natural alpha males.
[11:07.520 -> 11:09.240] We see somebody like Lance Armstrong,
[11:09.240 -> 11:10.920] we want to like that guy,
[11:10.920 -> 11:14.720] because he kind of reminds us of what we want to be, right?
[11:14.720 -> 11:16.040] So I see Lance Armstrong,
[11:16.040 -> 11:18.920] and I asked all the right questions, I hope, you know,
[11:18.920 -> 11:20.200] but I believed him.
[11:20.200 -> 11:22.520] So when he said, I'm the most dope-tested athlete
[11:22.520 -> 11:24.680] in the history of any sport, you know,
[11:24.680 -> 11:28.040] I can't go for a pee without a drug a drug test to follow me
[11:28.040 -> 11:31.640] You know if there was anything to find they'd have found it and I thought yeah go by that
[11:32.160 -> 11:34.160] Anyway, so then we got into mindset
[11:34.600 -> 11:36.380] and I said
[11:36.380 -> 11:41.760] See when you had cancer were you scared of dying? He said oh, yeah, I was scared of dying
[11:41.760 -> 11:46.460] I was scared of dying and you see right now you're about to go into the tour. I think it was his fifth tour
[11:46.660 -> 11:53.360] You're about to go into the tour and you're up against Yan Ulrich. He's like a beast, right? You scared losing to him
[11:53.360 -> 11:59.620] He said I'm scared. Oh, I'll I was scared of Ulrich. Yeah, I said which of those two fears is greater
[12:01.780 -> 12:03.780] He said Alistair
[12:04.160 -> 12:08.320] Losing and dying. it's the same thing, right?
[12:08.320 -> 12:11.320] Now, I went, wow.
[12:11.320 -> 12:15.160] I should have gone, ah, right, so you're a total fucking cheater.
[12:15.160 -> 12:16.600] It matters that much to you.
[12:16.600 -> 12:17.600] You would do anything.
[12:17.600 -> 12:18.600] But I didn't.
[12:18.600 -> 12:21.240] I thought, oh, wow.
[12:21.240 -> 12:27.880] So his strategy and tactics, I mean, you have to analyse it from what he achieved, but obviously
[12:27.880 -> 12:30.720] there was a flaw in there that's subsequently been exposed.
[12:30.720 -> 12:35.720] So if I think of other people, I think Bill Clinton, strategy and tactics.
[12:35.720 -> 12:37.160] Why?
[12:37.160 -> 12:45.680] Because I think he, in a moment of crisis for him, the whole Monica Lewinsky thing
[12:47.680 -> 12:48.320] He never lost sight of that OST
[12:54.240 -> 12:57.200] Right, and he defined in those terms. Yeah, I did an interview with him where he said it wasn't specifically for the book I've done it for a TV thing and I said, how did you cope?
[12:57.640 -> 13:01.360] When you know and I could we could see because when he and Hillary were coming over here
[13:01.360 -> 13:05.920] We were going over there and it was just obvious. he was in the deep freeze with Hillary, right?
[13:05.920 -> 13:07.340] Absolutely.
[13:07.340 -> 13:08.400] If the cameras were there,
[13:08.400 -> 13:09.720] she could paint on a smile,
[13:09.720 -> 13:11.560] she could be the first lady.
[13:11.560 -> 13:13.400] Soon as the cameras were gone,
[13:13.400 -> 13:14.960] it was like deep freeze.
[13:14.960 -> 13:17.160] And he said, at the time,
[13:17.160 -> 13:18.760] I'm the President of the United States,
[13:18.760 -> 13:20.680] I'm supposed to be the most powerful man in the world,
[13:20.680 -> 13:23.720] I was sleeping on the sofa, right?
[13:23.720 -> 13:27.200] And he was right out of favor so how
[13:27.200 -> 13:35.720] do you cope with that and he said objective survive stay president strategy focus on the
[13:35.720 -> 13:40.920] things that only I can do because only I'm the president tactics make sure the American
[13:40.920 -> 13:48.000] people know that's what I'm doing and if you go back and look at what he was saying and doing during that time,
[13:48.000 -> 13:51.040] he never talked about Monofilowinski unless he was asked about it.
[13:51.040 -> 13:53.920] He'd get up every morning, he'd go out, he'd talk about jobs, he'd talk about,
[13:54.720 -> 13:57.280] you know, diplomacy, talk about military stuff.
[13:57.280 -> 14:00.080] He'd only engage in it if he had to.
[14:00.640 -> 14:05.760] So where did you learn about those three pillars and Alistair in your own story
[14:05.760 -> 14:10.080] about the objective the strategy and the tactics and it's important well
[14:10.080 -> 14:15.320] possibly from possibly from him I can't remember right when but I used to have I
[14:15.320 -> 14:21.200] mean I less so now but I I'm still a very pen and paper person and inside my
[14:21.200 -> 14:25.480] notebooks I've got a notebook the first thing I write in it is OST
[14:26.020 -> 14:27.780] Now I've done that for a long time
[14:27.780 -> 14:28.220] Yeah
[14:28.220 -> 14:32.260] And I've got I'm big on post-its on the wall and stuff like that
[14:32.260 -> 14:37.540] Oh ST has always been a big one when I first started doing that. I just don't know but it's interesting that
[14:38.180 -> 14:41.400] It was Clinton who he defined that in those terms
[14:41.400 -> 14:46.920] It might have been that but I think also instinctively it's sort of what we did as New Labour.
[14:46.920 -> 14:48.760] Because I've read a story, I don't know if this is true,
[14:48.760 -> 14:52.920] that quite early on, Bunch, you won the election in 97,
[14:52.920 -> 14:54.600] that there was a story of Tony Blair asking,
[14:54.600 -> 14:56.400] how do you make things happen now?
[14:56.400 -> 14:58.720] It was almost like you got into power
[14:58.720 -> 15:00.600] and then pulling the levers of power
[15:00.600 -> 15:02.520] to make it translate into tactics.
[15:02.520 -> 15:04.440] It's hard because you, you, you,
[15:04.440 -> 15:06.920] and you know, Mario Cuomo governor, New York
[15:06.920 -> 15:09.340] He said, you know you campaign in poetry, but you govern in prose
[15:09.720 -> 15:15.720] So you're out on the campaign trail and the thing about I think definitely me and to a lesser extent
[15:15.920 -> 15:20.340] Tony because Tony obviously is having to think about you know, you were not daft
[15:20.340 -> 15:26.000] We knew it was like we're gonna win but every day we had a discussion. What can we do today to stop ourselves winning?
[15:26.660 -> 15:29.980] Every single day we had that so by the time we got there
[15:30.560 -> 15:33.760] It was almost like and I can remember I mean I said in my diaries
[15:33.760 -> 15:36.760] I was like I was a bit depressed because I was really tired
[15:37.440 -> 15:42.240] and I was slightly daunted by the prospect of what we're going into and
[15:42.720 -> 15:44.200] Then so we get into it
[15:44.200 -> 15:48.300] Tony's got a much more kind of positive outlook about everything than I have and he's I think
[15:48.300 -> 15:52.000] he's ever had a day's depression in his life but he goes in there and it's like
[15:52.000 -> 16:00.200] right we know what we want to do how do we do it and going from campaign mode
[16:00.200 -> 16:09.560] which is a sort of I mean Clinton said it's the only form of life that makes everybody look like their passport photo you're full-on it's exhausting and
[16:09.560 -> 16:15.440] then you win and you get in and suddenly it's more important and harder so yeah
[16:15.440 -> 16:18.560] he did that he did say that and but what it was a what it was was a way of
[16:18.560 -> 16:23.320] getting galvanizing the the machine right into working for him and working
[16:23.320 -> 16:26.640] for us and what we wanted to do. But the reason I ask is that,
[16:26.640 -> 16:29.520] where do you think a leader needs to focus?
[16:29.520 -> 16:32.400] Is it on all three of the OST?
[16:32.400 -> 16:36.600] I've got two most important letters, sets of.
[16:36.600 -> 16:38.460] The other is SLT.
[16:38.460 -> 16:41.720] And SLT is strategy, leadership and teamship.
[16:41.720 -> 16:43.760] Which for me, have to work together
[16:43.760 -> 16:45.460] in a kind of never
[16:45.460 -> 16:46.460] ending circle.
[16:46.460 -> 16:50.760] I don't think you can have one working without the other two.
[16:50.760 -> 16:51.760] I mentioned Cameron.
[16:51.760 -> 16:54.440] I can look at Cameron and think, well, yeah, he looks a bit like a leader.
[16:54.440 -> 16:58.080] I don't, it doesn't sound ridiculous when he's described as the prime minister.
[16:58.080 -> 17:03.320] He had quite a good team, people like Osborne around him and that lot.
[17:03.320 -> 17:05.360] And, but on strategy strategy I think he was weak
[17:05.360 -> 17:10.400] so unless you have those three all going together I don't think it works I think
[17:10.400 -> 17:15.760] you know your world you look at sport you can see managers I can spot man I
[17:15.760 -> 17:18.200] love watching managers after match interviews and stuff because you can
[17:18.200 -> 17:23.920] spot the ones who are good at that right but it's a very different skill to what
[17:23.920 -> 17:26.080] you need to motivate a team of players who?
[17:26.580 -> 17:29.400] Don't give a damn what you're saying on the telly because they're probably not even watching it
[17:29.400 -> 17:32.640] Yeah, you know and and so how you do those three things together
[17:32.940 -> 17:38.760] So I think strategy is the most important and in a well-functioning organization
[17:38.760 -> 17:40.880] You won't have got to the top unless you're good at that
[17:41.480 -> 17:46.360] But sadly, I think a lot of organizations people do get to the top who aren't good at that.
[17:46.360 -> 17:48.960] And I think building the team is, you know,
[17:48.960 -> 17:50.520] it's fundamental.
[17:50.520 -> 17:52.320] And you were a key part,
[17:52.320 -> 17:54.200] if we talk about that team that won
[17:54.200 -> 17:55.640] three consecutive elections,
[17:55.640 -> 17:58.720] you were obviously a key part of that.
[17:58.720 -> 18:00.680] What would you say that you brought
[18:00.680 -> 18:03.080] in that teamship element that was unique
[18:03.080 -> 18:15.920] that nobody else was doing? Tony's nickname for me was Kino. So I think box to box and absolute focus
[18:15.920 -> 18:21.000] and not letting anything go. Hard in the tackle? Quite hard.
[18:21.000 -> 18:25.900] Hopefully with a bit more of the humor that Keane shows these days
[18:27.080 -> 18:32.560] So we're talking about big things here. We're talking about elite level sport running countries
[18:33.700 -> 18:39.260] Doping your way to more Tour de France wins than anybody else being the president of the United States and sleeping on the sofa
[18:39.860 -> 18:45.640] Can these letters apply to anyone in any walk of life should all the people listening to this podcast no matter what their job
[18:45.640 -> 18:50.660] Or their career or their plan should we all be thinking in the mindset of OST?
[18:50.880 -> 18:55.660] Yeah, I think so because if you think about if you have a kid you have a child objective
[18:56.800 -> 19:00.800] Right alive. Yeah, but raise the child to be healthy and happy. Yeah, right
[19:01.960 -> 19:03.120] strategy
[19:03.120 -> 19:05.160] What sort of parent you're going to be?
[19:05.480 -> 19:10.140] Now it's bloody hard and I'm not saying that you can stick to a certain style
[19:10.140 -> 19:14.420] But I think having those discussions in your own mind and with your your family
[19:14.420 -> 19:19.800] I think is a good thing to do take something really simple. I've described this in the book. You know, you won't lose weight
[19:20.680 -> 19:22.680] Objective. Well, you won't lose weight
[19:23.400 -> 19:24.680] strategy
[19:24.680 -> 19:27.720] diet exercise Objective, well, you want to lose weight. Strategy, diet, exercise.
[19:27.720 -> 19:29.040] What's a tactic?
[19:29.040 -> 19:30.780] Write down everything you eat.
[19:31.640 -> 19:32.820] Put a picture of yourself
[19:32.820 -> 19:34.400] when you're overweight in the fridge.
[19:34.400 -> 19:36.240] You know, these are just tactics.
[19:36.240 -> 19:38.280] So I think you can do it with anything.
[19:38.280 -> 19:40.120] And I think it is a useful,
[19:40.120 -> 19:41.720] and I think even the strategy, leadership,
[19:41.720 -> 19:43.720] teamship thing you can have.
[19:43.720 -> 19:46.080] If you're like, you know, in your own life
[19:46.080 -> 19:48.480] going through struggles, well,
[19:48.480 -> 19:51.320] who are the people that you really trust to talk to?
[19:51.320 -> 19:52.680] They're your team.
[19:52.680 -> 19:55.200] Your strategy might be to be open with them
[19:55.200 -> 19:56.440] about a problem that you're facing.
[19:56.440 -> 19:59.240] So I think that, I think these are, yeah,
[19:59.240 -> 20:01.880] readily applied to everyday life.
[20:01.880 -> 20:04.040] And how well do you think they can overlap?
[20:04.040 -> 20:07.640] So like the example you offered of being a parent is one, yn ymdrech i bywyd bywyd. A sut ydych chi'n meddwl y gallant ymgynghori? Felly, fel y cyfrifoldeb rydych chi'n gofyn o fod yn rhain,
[20:07.640 -> 20:11.640] ac yna gael gyrfa profesiynol fel unrhyw un.
[20:11.640 -> 20:13.000] Sut ydych chi'n meddwl y gallant ymgynghori,
[20:13.000 -> 20:15.520] neu sut y gallwch chi rhoi cyfrifoldeb yna?
[20:15.520 -> 20:16.480] Gallant ymgynghori'n dda,
[20:16.480 -> 20:19.560] ac maent hefyd yn ymgynghori'n fawr, fawr, fawr, yn ddifrifol.
[20:19.560 -> 20:24.400] Felly, os ydw i'n meddwl am fy nhyrfod o fy hun,
[20:24.400 -> 20:29.660] rwy'n credu y gallwn ni ein gweithredu So, you know, if I think about my own kind of life, I think we kid ourselves that you can do really full-on,
[20:29.660 -> 20:33.340] intense, high-profile, pressured,
[20:33.340 -> 20:36.580] traveling around the world, working around the clock jobs,
[20:36.580 -> 20:40.580] and not lose something from your role as a parent.
[20:40.580 -> 20:43.740] And, you know, it's very hard to admit that to yourself
[20:43.740 -> 20:46.860] when you're doing it, but retrospectively, you know, I look back and I think, yeah, well, you know, it's very hard to admit that to yourself when you're doing it, but retrospectively, you know
[20:46.860 -> 20:48.180] I look back and I think yeah
[20:48.180 -> 20:54.480] Well, you know we're talking to you earlier about my one of my one of our sons who's you know, recovering alcoholic now
[20:54.480 -> 21:00.300] He might have been anyway, he might have been anyway, but there's a little part of me that will always think
[21:00.780 -> 21:10.440] We weren't there enough for him. Yeah when he was growing up and. And now that may be right or wrong, but I think we, I think in the modern age, I think
[21:10.440 -> 21:13.120] we try and kid ourselves, we can have everything.
[21:13.120 -> 21:14.320] So I think they can overlap.
[21:14.320 -> 21:20.200] Look, I always try to involve the family, even to the extent of Fiona, my partner, who
[21:20.200 -> 21:22.320] didn't want me to do the job in the first place.
[21:22.320 -> 21:25.600] She eventually came and worked with Cherie, Tony's wife.
[21:25.600 -> 21:29.560] And that kind of was a way of trying to involve her more,
[21:29.560 -> 21:30.480] involve the family more.
[21:30.480 -> 21:33.000] But, you know, if I'm being absolutely honest,
[21:33.000 -> 21:34.640] I don't think it really worked.
[21:34.640 -> 21:39.200] And we've been a lot happier since we stopped
[21:39.200 -> 21:41.920] after quite a long period after I left
[21:41.920 -> 21:44.280] of finding a real struggle.
[21:44.280 -> 21:45.000] Because the other thing I find, and I think there's another thing that you'll probably, quite a long period after I left of, you know, finally finding a real struggle because the
[21:45.000 -> 21:50.000] other thing I find, and this I think is another thing that you'll probably, I'm sure you'll
[21:50.000 -> 21:53.400] have come across loads of times with the people you've talked about this high performance
[21:53.400 -> 21:58.840] team. I sort of do feel if you're doing something really, really difficult, you do have to be
[21:58.840 -> 22:08.840] on it 24 seven, you do have to think about it when you're asleep you do have to be you know waking up with new ideas and and I think it's hard to do that and
[22:09.360 -> 22:15.180] Be a normal person. Well, I mean one of our previous interviewees Alistair was a Stephen Hendry
[22:15.540 -> 22:20.640] Who was the first one that would have that was really explicit about the importance of selfishness?
[22:21.320 -> 22:26.160] To be high performance. He admitted that He admitted that his snooker career came
[22:26.160 -> 22:30.080] above his wife and children in his priority list.
[22:30.080 -> 22:33.800] How important do you think it is to be explicit
[22:33.800 -> 22:37.480] about the dark side of high performance, then?
[22:37.480 -> 22:41.040] I mean, I remember Peter Van Losser once said
[22:41.040 -> 22:42.680] of Tony Blair, he said,
[22:42.680 -> 22:48.860] oh, I do love Tony Tony he's so selfish it is a high
[22:48.860 -> 22:53.440] performance trait though sadly isn't it it was like you know it was just like I
[22:53.440 -> 22:57.240] cover what the circumstances were but it was like you definitely have to have
[22:57.240 -> 23:03.320] that ability I mean I said you know I think sacking people is quite hard and I
[23:03.320 -> 23:05.800] you know I saw as time went on that Tony,
[23:07.120 -> 23:09.920] you know, without losing his humanity,
[23:09.920 -> 23:12.880] he definitely found it easier as time went on.
[23:12.880 -> 23:15.280] He found it easier to, you know,
[23:15.280 -> 23:18.120] something that he would agonize over,
[23:18.120 -> 23:20.800] suddenly, it wasn't that he became perfunctory,
[23:20.800 -> 23:22.080] but he found it easier.
[23:22.080 -> 23:24.200] Now, you've got to be a bit selfish for that.
[23:24.200 -> 23:29.560] You've got to say, right, well, this person is no longer useful in the way that they were in the
[23:29.560 -> 23:32.920] way I wanted them to be, I'm moving them out and I've got somebody over there
[23:32.920 -> 23:36.920] that I'm bringing in and of course sport you know, that's sports kind of
[23:36.920 -> 23:40.680] made on, built on that. Well didn't Alex Ferguson give you some advice on it
[23:40.680 -> 23:45.040] when you reached out to him once about conflict in the cabinet and that was
[23:45.040 -> 23:46.040] the advice he'd passed on.
[23:46.040 -> 23:51.520] No, he gave me a lot of advice at different points but the one thing that Fiona, my partner,
[23:51.520 -> 23:58.600] will never forgive him for, the one that I really remember was in 97 on the campaign
[23:58.600 -> 24:02.840] trail and he was obsessed about the election because he didn't like the Tories and he was
[24:02.840 -> 24:09.520] desperate for us to win, he was phoning up the whole time. I'll never forget it. We're arriving at this in late. It was in Leicester on this
[24:10.120 -> 24:13.920] Bloody I hated this campaign bus ride. I just hated being on this bus
[24:14.240 -> 24:21.080] High performance by the way, Dave Brailsford. Yeah, bring me up said what's the best coach you've ever been on?
[24:22.240 -> 24:26.620] There you go. We'll talk about him in a second. All right, so the phone goes
[24:27.320 -> 24:31.640] But it was Alex Ferguson and he said we chatted away. So listen, I saw you
[24:32.160 -> 24:37.960] Earlier in the day you were getting off the bus behind Tony at somewhere where we've been said you're looking really really stressed
[24:37.960 -> 24:39.960] I said what I'm feeling stressed
[24:40.200 -> 24:48.280] They saw what's going on then. I said well, I said, you know what I think it is? The closer we get to the election,
[24:48.280 -> 24:50.160] we're so far ahead in the polls now,
[24:50.160 -> 24:51.880] people are already starting to treat Tony
[24:51.880 -> 24:53.560] like he's the prime minister.
[24:53.560 -> 24:56.800] So people who would normally think it's okay to go to him
[24:57.680 -> 25:00.280] were not doing that, they were coming to me
[25:00.280 -> 25:02.360] or to one of the other people who was around him.
[25:02.360 -> 25:04.840] So in addition to doing all the stuff that I had to do,
[25:04.840 -> 25:05.560] which was a lot, and a lot of stuff that I had to do which was a lot
[25:05.720 -> 25:11.400] And a lot of stuff that I was kind of in charge of I was picking up more stuff and I was getting really really stressed
[25:12.000 -> 25:14.000] And he said well, you know, I do in those circumstances
[25:14.920 -> 25:17.480] He said I kind of imagine I'm a racehorse
[25:17.920 -> 25:24.420] I'm like to race in the tourism and I've got blinkers on and all I'm looking out there and all I can see is a tunnel
[25:24.420 -> 25:29.260] I can see a tunnel and people are coming at me and they'll come and they'll do that thing
[25:29.260 -> 25:33.700] Which is what people are doing to you now and they'll say only you can resolve this only you can deal with this
[25:34.440 -> 25:36.920] And he said I give them I give them five seconds
[25:36.920 -> 25:42.480] I'll make a decision like that whether that's right or wrong and it might be true and I've pretty much done that ever since
[25:43.120 -> 25:47.820] Also when you in that tunnel you very quickly tell people whether they should go to someone else you mean
[25:47.820 -> 25:51.000] Yeah, so remove that one from you rather taking on everything
[25:51.520 -> 25:57.480] Yeah, and and it being a kind of almost instinctive thing and accepting that sometimes you might be wrong
[25:58.640 -> 26:03.320] But yeah, he was great. I need any of the other said which we didn't take on
[26:03.460 -> 26:06.400] He said you got get a masseur on that bus.
[26:08.120 -> 26:08.960] Sounds quite good.
[26:08.960 -> 26:10.960] Well, yeah, but I'm not sure.
[26:10.960 -> 26:12.720] Given that we had another bus just behind us
[26:12.720 -> 26:15.920] full of, you know, press and journals.
[26:15.920 -> 26:18.040] Talking of masseurs on buses and Dave Brailsford,
[26:18.040 -> 26:20.160] I'm really interested to get into the conversation
[26:20.160 -> 26:21.960] about what Dave taught you.
[26:21.960 -> 26:23.680] One of the things you said right at the beginning,
[26:23.680 -> 26:27.200] your secret to high performance is to think big.
[26:27.200 -> 26:28.880] And if anyone shoots for the stars
[26:28.880 -> 26:30.640] in terms of their thinking, it's Dave Brailsford.
[26:30.640 -> 26:34.000] So does he do the OST?
[26:34.000 -> 26:36.360] Does he create the objective, huge objective,
[26:36.360 -> 26:38.160] and work out the strategy and the tactics
[26:38.160 -> 26:39.480] all at the same time?
[26:39.480 -> 26:42.440] Or do some of these really highly successful people
[26:42.440 -> 26:46.360] do the O and then kind of spend a lot of
[26:46.360 -> 26:50.280] time and speak to a lot of people about how the strategy yeah I think I think
[26:50.280 -> 26:53.920] he's a bit of both actually I think he said in the book that he said when he
[26:53.920 -> 26:57.640] first said I'm going to lead the team that becomes the first British team to
[26:57.640 -> 27:01.720] win the Tour de France ever he said he got home that night and he said to his
[27:01.720 -> 27:11.120] missus can't believe what I said today and so it wasn't like he'd I mean he planned it and he was gonna believe it and he believed he could do it
[27:11.440 -> 27:15.280] But when he said it, I don't think he had anything like the full plan
[27:16.040 -> 27:19.340] But I think his strategy was it was to put together
[27:20.360 -> 27:24.700] You know, I mean, I know people focus on this thing about marginal gains, but it was actually to say well
[27:24.900 -> 27:27.220] What are all the things that I'm now going to need?
[27:27.760 -> 27:32.860] to do what I've said we're going to do and how do I make them just a little bit better than everybody else and
[27:34.160 -> 27:35.680] That's what he did
[27:35.680 -> 27:40.720] And how many of these really elite high-performance people are working in silos are able to?
[27:40.960 -> 27:46.680] Compute and work it without themselves and how much like Dave Brailsford are able to put a brilliant team around them?
[27:46.680 -> 27:51.520] I don't know anybody who can do it all themselves. I do think putting together the right group
[27:51.520 -> 27:57.720] of people is as important as, I mean obviously, particularly in sport, if you're the athlete
[27:57.720 -> 28:01.960] you're the most important person, if you're the coach. But I think, you know, you look
[28:01.960 -> 28:09.800] at the great coaches, if they were to put into one room all the different people that are really important to their success
[28:09.800 -> 28:13.400] If they're being honest a lot of them were people you and I've never heard of hmm
[28:13.400 -> 28:15.740] I mean I always remember it used to be
[28:16.440 -> 28:19.200] Became a sort of huge laugh in our household the fact how often
[28:19.880 -> 28:23.560] Alex Ferguson when the United scored would would hug the kit man Albert
[28:23.600 -> 28:24.260] Alex Ferguson when the United scored would would hug the kit man Albert
[28:28.280 -> 28:28.560] because as far as he was concerned Albert was absolutely fundamental to the
[28:33.700 -> 28:34.760] To the culture to the ethos to the success. Yeah, and I think the other thing about about Dave that's
[28:38.160 -> 28:40.080] This really interesting is his absolute restlessness
[28:44.620 -> 28:45.000] Never really happy and one of the questions I asked virtually everybody interviewed for the winners book
[28:51.160 -> 28:51.280] Was whether they were more motivated by a love of winning or a hatred of defeat and most of them it was a hatred defeat
[28:56.640 -> 28:57.360] And what would you say for yourself? I totally yes. Hey, yeah, definitely. Well if I tell you for example
[28:58.560 -> 29:03.960] 1997 The first election which should have been one of the happiest days of my life. I was I was honestly I was miserable
[29:04.560 -> 29:05.040] And I think it was partly should have been one of the happiest days of my life. I was, I was honestly, I was miserable.
[29:05.040 -> 29:06.660] And I think it was partly,
[29:07.480 -> 29:09.600] you've worked on this for years and years and years
[29:09.600 -> 29:11.080] and years and now it's gone.
[29:11.080 -> 29:12.640] And what are you going to do next?
[29:12.640 -> 29:14.480] And I knew what I was going to do next,
[29:14.480 -> 29:17.940] but I wasn't, everybody defined it as euphoria.
[29:17.940 -> 29:20.440] I didn't feel that at all, at any level.
[29:21.320 -> 29:24.480] And do you think that's what made you successful
[29:24.480 -> 29:25.520] at your job then?
[29:25.520 -> 29:31.560] So I've wondered this in terms of you've spoken quite publicly about your mental health challenges over the years
[29:32.080 -> 29:36.400] Do you think that in many ways that was a blessing and a curse because it made you good at your job?
[29:36.840 -> 29:41.600] In terms of never being happy maybe looking for the worst in situations
[29:41.960 -> 29:46.080] Yeah, possibly. I mean I am happy most of the time and I really like having a good laugh.
[29:46.080 -> 29:48.000] And you were asking what my role was.
[29:48.000 -> 29:49.840] I think one of my roles was the sort of,
[29:49.840 -> 29:52.480] I was definitely the black humor guy
[29:52.480 -> 29:56.280] who was trying to keep people laughing and what have you.
[29:56.280 -> 30:00.160] But yeah, I think that sense of looking for the stuff
[30:00.160 -> 30:03.560] that can go wrong and worrying all the time
[30:03.560 -> 30:06.120] and never ever accepting that
[30:06.120 -> 30:10.960] perfection exists and yet trying to strive for it that's definitely you know
[30:10.960 -> 30:15.200] we won with the sort of mass that landslide that we've got in 1997 but
[30:15.200 -> 30:19.080] part of me was thinking you know we could have done better than that you
[30:19.080 -> 30:22.960] know we could have done better do you worry all the time yeah I worry about
[30:22.960 -> 30:25.000] something most of the time, yeah.
[30:25.000 -> 30:27.000] I'm the same, and I've always been like that.
[30:27.000 -> 30:29.000] But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
[30:29.000 -> 30:33.000] I almost think it's kind of like, it's a bit of a protective orb that I'm...
[30:33.000 -> 30:35.000] I mean, my wife takes it to the extreme.
[30:35.000 -> 30:36.000] I remember her once saying to me,
[30:36.000 -> 30:38.000] I'm worried I haven't worried enough.
[30:38.000 -> 30:40.000] Like that was going to change or solve the problem.
[30:40.000 -> 30:44.000] But I do think there is something healthy about worrying,
[30:44.000 -> 30:48.360] not to an unhealthy degree, but having that... I just having the edge of that all the time
[30:48.360 -> 30:53.780] Yeah, well, I kind of plugged into the potential issues without them overawing you. I mean I think anxiety
[30:54.600 -> 30:58.120] As a kind of medical condition is horrible and I've had a bit of that
[30:58.960 -> 31:02.120] Not as much as about the depression, but I know what anxiety is
[31:03.040 -> 31:07.720] but worry as in ruminating and fretting
[31:07.720 -> 31:09.560] and thinking through a problem,
[31:09.560 -> 31:12.160] I think that's part of performance.
[31:12.160 -> 31:16.400] Why do athletes get more nervous before an Olympic final
[31:16.400 -> 31:21.400] than they do before a bog standard diamond race in wherever?
[31:22.520 -> 31:24.000] Because it matters more.
[31:24.000 -> 31:26.680] And I think the worrying and the sleeplessness and all that stuff
[31:26.680 -> 31:29.200] I mean, obviously not sleeping is really bad for you
[31:29.920 -> 31:34.480] But I if I think of really really some really really high pressure moments
[31:34.480 -> 31:41.560] I've had like I remember the the night before the I've had to give evidence of the Hutton inquiry, which was massive pressure for me. I
[31:42.320 -> 31:45.960] Realized come back for 30. I there was no way I was going to get back to sleep.
[31:45.960 -> 31:47.760] So I was kind of, I was thinking, right,
[31:47.760 -> 31:49.200] that means I've got a few more hours
[31:49.200 -> 31:52.760] that I can try to get my mind properly in shape,
[31:52.760 -> 31:54.920] get my attitude properly in shape.
[31:54.920 -> 31:57.320] So I think even using something like sleeplessness
[31:57.320 -> 32:00.040] as a kind of positive worry,
[32:00.040 -> 32:01.520] I think when it gets really bad
[32:01.520 -> 32:07.600] is when it does trip over to anxiety as an illness.
[32:07.600 -> 32:09.200] But I can worry, honestly.
[32:09.200 -> 32:18.160] My worries can go from worrying about how warm will it be in the studio should I wear
[32:18.160 -> 32:29.000] something warm, to how many shirts should I take on a trip to somewhere next week, to why aren't I doing more to stop the world from destroying itself through climate change?
[32:29.000 -> 32:34.000] The intensity is just the same when you're in that kind of ruminating mode.
[32:34.000 -> 32:38.000] But I find it very, not therapeutic, but cleansing.
[32:38.000 -> 32:44.000] But what I'd be fascinated to understand Alistair is that you're somebody who has taken steps
[32:44.000 -> 32:47.240] to understand the workings of your mind.
[32:47.320 -> 32:50.400] You've spoken about sort of linking up with psychiatrists
[32:50.400 -> 32:52.680] and coaches in that way.
[32:52.680 -> 32:54.440] For anyone listening to this podcast,
[32:54.440 -> 32:57.200] what's the most valuable tip you've learned
[32:57.200 -> 32:59.520] from your work with professionals in that area
[32:59.520 -> 33:02.160] that have helped you keep it on a manageable level
[33:02.160 -> 33:04.160] as opposed to going too far?
[33:04.160 -> 33:05.120] I mean, there's lots really,
[33:05.120 -> 33:08.600] but I don't know whether they'd apply necessarily
[33:08.600 -> 33:10.960] to my previous self because I do,
[33:10.960 -> 33:12.200] part of what I've done is to lead
[33:12.200 -> 33:13.840] a very different sort of life.
[33:13.840 -> 33:16.840] I'm still very busy and I do loads of stuff,
[33:16.840 -> 33:20.840] but I've very carefully and deliberately prevented myself
[33:20.840 -> 33:23.920] getting sucked into doing just one thing.
[33:23.920 -> 33:29.000] I think doing the job I did for Tony Blair is probably the last just one thing that I'll do.
[33:29.000 -> 33:31.000] And now I do lots of different things.
[33:31.000 -> 33:33.000] I think even that's helpful for people to hear,
[33:33.000 -> 33:37.000] because there will be people listening to this that have anxiety and mental health problems
[33:37.000 -> 33:42.000] and don't necessarily know which way to turn, and looking for your own answers is so important.
[33:42.000 -> 33:45.920] Yeah, but you see, when I was a journalist and then when I worked in with Tony Blair I
[33:46.680 -> 33:48.560] Always thought I was a full-on
[33:48.560 -> 33:54.440] You've got to have a job you've got other you know, you just could do one thing and now I've developed in something very different
[33:54.440 -> 33:56.580] I'm not saying I don't know which is right which is wrong and
[33:57.120 -> 34:02.060] It may be for other reasons to do with being older to do with my kids being grown up, whatever
[34:02.060 -> 34:04.680] I'm definitely mentally in a better place now
[34:04.680 -> 34:05.640] To do with my kids being grown up, whatever. I'm definitely mentally in a better place now
[34:11.120 -> 34:11.760] however, I still get depression and I still get you know, I still have a quite troubled mind and
[34:16.200 -> 34:20.040] The thing about I mean, there's lots of little tips and big tips. I can kind of pass on I'll give you I'll give you a tiny one the thing about pressure
[34:20.800 -> 34:22.560] leading to and and
[34:22.560 -> 34:28.760] Was it Dave Brown's for all this? There's another guy in the book Andy McCann is a sports psychologist in Wales yeah he said
[34:28.760 -> 34:35.480] pressure good stress bad pressure good pressure this this matters that makes
[34:35.480 -> 34:38.560] you do it better stress you're worrying about things you
[34:38.560 -> 34:42.940] shouldn't your mind's going to place you can't control you lose the plot and I
[34:42.940 -> 34:45.520] once had a situation where I
[34:50.620 -> 34:50.920] Was doing interviews and I was I was having like out-of-body experiences one of which you can Google it
[34:57.800 -> 34:58.760] Google me and Andrew Ma and it will come up top and guarantee it and it was an interview where he asked me a question
[35:05.560 -> 35:11.440] And I'm just I'm not there. I'm kind of I'm over there at one point. I'm thinking I'm gonna hit him And I didn't speak for quite you you listen you do tell you right? Yeah, it's only a few seconds
[35:11.440 -> 35:16.440] But honestly it was like a long line along a few seconds and I didn't say anything because I didn't know what was I?
[35:16.760 -> 35:18.400] Didn't know where I was
[35:18.400 -> 35:23.000] So I went to see this guy Andy McCann because I knew him through a friend of ours. He was a golfer
[35:23.640 -> 35:29.980] who was helping him because he had the yips and he couldn't put properly and Andy told me
[35:29.980 -> 35:32.720] this thing he said well all that's happening there is I can't remember the
[35:32.720 -> 35:36.680] medical term he gave me the medical term and it's a sort of fight-or-flight thing
[35:36.680 -> 35:41.500] and he said the thing you got to do is find your own thing that works for you
[35:41.500 -> 35:46.520] that's all like what I said well you, like what? He said, well, you know, the All Blacks, if you ever see the All Blacks playing,
[35:46.520 -> 35:48.960] and you see them do that, and look at the sky,
[35:48.960 -> 35:51.960] it's a centering, that's their centering thing.
[35:51.960 -> 35:55.000] They're losing concentration, just go like that,
[35:55.000 -> 35:56.480] and it just gets them back.
[35:56.480 -> 35:58.680] So I developed this thing, so my thing is that,
[35:58.680 -> 36:02.120] I just rub my thumbs, so if I feel,
[36:02.120 -> 36:04.560] and this is like, if I get, it doesn't happen as often,
[36:04.560 -> 36:05.120] is it, you know, I don't want to make this sound dramatic, if I get, it doesn't happen as often as it,
[36:05.120 -> 36:07.520] you know, I don't want to make it sound dramatic,
[36:07.520 -> 36:09.080] but if somebody attacks me in the street,
[36:09.080 -> 36:11.160] which occasionally does happen, right, you know,
[36:11.160 -> 36:14.080] just shouts at you or has a go, whatever,
[36:14.080 -> 36:15.540] I just do that.
[36:15.540 -> 36:18.360] And I don't know why, but two things happen.
[36:18.360 -> 36:22.360] One, I feel centered.
[36:22.360 -> 36:23.880] And secondly, I smile.
[36:23.880 -> 36:26.000] It makes me smile. And I smile it makes me smile
[36:28.400 -> 36:29.200] How to do it on telly if I'm feeling under pressure
[36:31.200 -> 36:37.240] And then to you or something I just do that And the thing is that I do have a bit of a temper and sometimes particularly out on the speaking circuit
[36:37.240 -> 36:40.040] You get people if it's an after-dinner thing, they've had a few drinks. Yeah
[36:40.760 -> 36:45.480] There's always one who wants to have a little go and make a name for themselves.
[36:45.480 -> 36:48.480] And it's funny, I do that and I just start laughing at them.
[36:48.480 -> 36:50.700] And there's nothing they can do to get near me.
[36:50.700 -> 36:54.320] So that's the kind of, that's a sort of micro thing.
[36:54.320 -> 36:57.520] And then a bigger thing, which I got actually
[36:57.520 -> 36:59.760] writing the book and making the film about depression
[36:59.760 -> 37:02.680] was my jam jar, which is this woman who told me
[37:02.680 -> 37:05.880] that look at your life as a jam jar.
[37:05.880 -> 37:08.680] So down the bottom of the jam jar is the sediment,
[37:08.680 -> 37:11.080] that's your genes, and then the rest of your jam jar
[37:11.080 -> 37:12.560] is your life.
[37:12.560 -> 37:14.520] And it's, most of the time, you can manage it,
[37:14.520 -> 37:16.680] it's good and bad, and it's stuff that you remember,
[37:16.680 -> 37:20.200] stuff you don't, but when the jam jar gets full,
[37:20.200 -> 37:23.600] it means you can't cope, the lid explodes,
[37:23.600 -> 37:25.220] and your life explodes explodes and you're ill
[37:25.320 -> 37:32.100] Okay, and she said what you need to do is rather than think about undoing everything inside the jam jar is grow the jam jar
[37:32.100 -> 37:33.440] All right
[37:33.440 -> 37:38.920] Add the layers that allow you more space to put more of your life
[37:38.920 -> 37:43.600] So I did honestly not she's talking about but then I've ruminated a few days later
[37:43.600 -> 37:45.640] I got up in the middle and I up in the middle of the night,
[37:45.640 -> 37:47.880] I woke in the middle of the night, about four o'clock,
[37:47.880 -> 37:49.840] I went downstairs, and it's on my wall at home now,
[37:49.840 -> 37:51.960] I drew my own jam jar.
[37:51.960 -> 37:53.460] Sediment, life.
[37:54.520 -> 37:56.760] And then I've got, and this is personal to me, right?
[37:56.760 -> 38:00.680] This is the first one's FFF, Fiona, family, friends, right?
[38:00.680 -> 38:03.240] If my key relationships are strong,
[38:03.240 -> 38:04.680] if my kids are reasonably happy,
[38:04.680 -> 38:05.620] if Fiona and I get on
[38:05.840 -> 38:10.760] If I've got a small number of close friends that I totally trust that's not bad start
[38:11.620 -> 38:14.780] Meaningful activity which means work, but it also means
[38:15.440 -> 38:22.040] Changing the world. Yep, then sleep diet exercise, which I never used to take seriously and now I do
[38:22.560 -> 38:25.000] Then it's the things that are really personal to me.
[38:25.000 -> 38:29.320] So Burnley Football Club, bagpipes, scenery,
[38:29.320 -> 38:34.320] Elvis, Jack Brel, Abba, my bike, my dog.
[38:34.640 -> 38:36.600] Right, these are the things that matter to me.
[38:36.600 -> 38:40.320] Then it's the thematic stuff, like curiosity,
[38:41.200 -> 38:42.800] never going to bed without knowing something
[38:42.800 -> 38:45.280] you didn't know when you got up in the morning.
[38:45.280 -> 38:47.320] Creativity for me is important.
[38:47.320 -> 38:49.340] I have to write something every single day.
[38:49.340 -> 38:52.040] And the thing is I'm up here already with my jam jar
[38:52.040 -> 38:54.600] and I haven't even mentioned medication,
[38:54.600 -> 38:56.440] which I take every day.
[38:56.440 -> 38:58.560] Now the thing is, if you'd have said to me the day
[38:58.560 -> 39:00.320] before I met this woman in Canada, Janine,
[39:00.320 -> 39:02.440] who told me about this, and you'd have said to me,
[39:02.440 -> 39:03.480] how do you cope with depression?
[39:03.480 -> 39:05.340] I'd have said, I take medication every day. So I still take medication, but if you just said to me how'd you cope with depression? I said I'll take medication every day
[39:07.260 -> 39:11.860] So I still take medication Yeah, but if you now say to me, how do you deal with depression? I said, oh, I got my chum job
[39:11.860 -> 39:12.260] Yeah
[39:12.260 -> 39:17.040] and do you ever find certain parts of your jam jar have not has not been allowed to grow enough and
[39:17.340 -> 39:19.340] You're sort of aware of them. Oh
[39:19.420 -> 39:24.060] Yeah, and you can yeah, definitely what I do now is if I feel I'm going into depression
[39:24.300 -> 39:24.800] And you can yeah, definitely what I do now is if I feel I'm going into depression
[39:31.240 -> 39:32.060] Or when I'm in it, I will very deliberately try and do something to tick off every single one
[39:39.500 -> 39:46.920] Generally if I do it in up to and including phoning Sean Dyche and saying, you know, why did you take good muscle off yesterday? That's me doing Burnley and he'll he'll tolerate it and patronise me and pretend he takes my views seriously.
[39:46.920 -> 39:48.880] But I'll do something to do with all of them.
[39:48.880 -> 39:50.980] And yeah, definitely it's made me feel,
[39:51.840 -> 39:54.480] it's just given me a plan when I get into a depression.
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[40:56.760 -> 40:58.600] Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds.
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[43:02.000 -> 43:13.680] Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. I'm conscious that your original training in journalism was about framing a narrative
[43:13.680 -> 43:18.440] and I'm interested there that that seems like a very different way of an internal narrative
[43:18.440 -> 43:23.800] rather than seeing yourself as somebody that takes medication. That jam jar is a different
[43:23.800 -> 43:24.800] story you're telling yourself.
[43:24.800 -> 43:25.840] I think that's exactly what it is,
[43:25.840 -> 43:28.160] and I think we all need those.
[43:28.160 -> 43:30.880] Look, we all have them, you know, we all have them.
[43:30.880 -> 43:34.320] We all tell ourselves stories about ourselves all the time.
[43:34.320 -> 43:35.160] Yeah.
[43:35.160 -> 43:37.920] And sometimes we challenge them, you know.
[43:37.920 -> 43:40.240] So yeah, I think that is exactly what it is.
[43:40.240 -> 43:43.920] The other thing is, if you've ever been in the public eye
[43:43.920 -> 43:46.380] and people write about you and broadcast about you
[43:47.740 -> 43:53.900] Narratives get shaped for you, you know you get so, you know, I thought with me
[43:53.900 -> 44:00.000] I found one of the most irritated things that happens to me is number of people say oh, you know at all like I expected
[44:00.900 -> 44:06.720] Really pisses me off because what it means is they'll never stop to think I'm not saying they should yeah, right
[44:06.720 -> 44:08.720] But they take other people's narratives
[44:09.480 -> 44:12.740] Now I think you've got a it's not you should sit around there
[44:12.740 -> 44:18.380] But this goes back to your point about whether you can you can all relate to your own sense of strategy leadership team ship
[44:18.380 -> 44:23.900] I think owning your own narrative is really really important because that then dictates the decisions that you make about your own life
[44:22.240 -> 44:25.360] is really, really important because that then dictates the decisions that you make about your own life.
[44:25.360 -> 44:28.040] One of the decisions I wrestle with all the time,
[44:28.040 -> 44:30.120] literally every day, this is one of the things
[44:30.120 -> 44:32.480] I worry about, Fiona, my partner,
[44:32.480 -> 44:35.840] she's much more private than I am anyway,
[44:35.840 -> 44:40.600] but she's sort of decided she doesn't feel any need
[44:40.600 -> 44:43.760] to be validated by outside people.
[44:43.760 -> 44:48.600] But that's a big decision to make when it comes to things like, you know, like this
[44:48.600 -> 44:51.480] morning with the Super League, I've got loads of bids to go and talk about it.
[44:51.480 -> 44:52.480] Why?
[44:52.480 -> 44:55.600] Because people are like football and, you know, I might have an opinion, right?
[44:55.600 -> 44:56.600] And I was torn.
[44:56.600 -> 45:02.880] Fiona's got no need to be torn because she's decided I don't need that outside validation.
[45:02.880 -> 45:09.240] Her MA, her meaningful activity, is around stuff that matters to her to do with the family to do with
[45:09.840 -> 45:14.660] Helping out in local schools being a governor to do it. You know, it's a different sort of validation
[45:14.660 -> 45:19.640] So and I think that's how the narrative you give yourself
[45:20.340 -> 45:22.800] Isn't just about it's not just a static thing
[45:23.320 -> 45:26.380] It actually helps you make decisions about your about your own life
[45:26.960 -> 45:29.580] You've been close to real power
[45:29.720 -> 45:37.760] But some of the characters you've described the Clintons the Blairs that the Putin's even is there a common thread to their narratives?
[45:37.760 -> 45:40.180] Do you think separate them from?
[45:40.720 -> 45:42.080] from others
[45:42.080 -> 45:44.880] Yes, and no, yes, and no if
[45:42.320 -> 45:43.320] from others? Yes and no.
[45:43.320 -> 45:44.800] Yes and no.
[45:44.800 -> 45:48.820] If, I think to get to that level,
[45:48.820 -> 45:52.880] you do have to have a sense of your own abilities.
[45:52.880 -> 45:55.280] And I think you do have to be a little bit arrogant.
[45:55.280 -> 45:56.260] I don't mean that in a bad way.
[45:56.260 -> 45:57.560] You need to think, yeah, I mean,
[45:57.560 -> 45:58.880] you've got to be a bit weird to think
[45:58.880 -> 46:00.920] you can be a prime minister or a president,
[46:00.920 -> 46:03.260] you know, because not many people are going to do it.
[46:03.260 -> 46:05.440] But then I think you've got to have
[46:10.120 -> 46:10.720] so that part of Tony's narrative was that sense of positivity and
[46:16.860 -> 46:17.400] Confidence and and that played into the political narrative of you know modernization new labor new Britain all that
[46:21.080 -> 46:21.440] Clinton had very, you know, very similar kind of vibe if you like
[46:26.280 -> 46:32.280] But then you you know, you mentioned something like Putin. I'd say Putin somebody whose narrative has changed I think it has got to a pretty dark place where it's really just about power and wealth and and
[46:32.840 -> 46:34.840] So for with something like Merkel
[46:35.320 -> 46:39.000] who you know, she's she's incredible because she's like I
[46:39.840 -> 46:45.320] Wonder if she'd even get elected in in a country like Britain or even France, you know, because she doesn't have that
[46:45.920 -> 46:52.320] What we would define as modern-day charisma. Yeah, you got to remember these about these these really powerful positions
[46:52.320 -> 46:58.240] You're making people focus on the decisions that you see every night on the telly which might one or two making hundreds
[46:58.240 -> 47:03.360] Yeah, and I think to have to be able to make them at the speed that they have to make them
[47:03.360 -> 47:08.120] You know, I used to watch Tony Blair with these, you know, the red boxes when might be you're at a summit
[47:08.120 -> 47:10.120] We're coming back from the summit. You're on a plane
[47:10.240 -> 47:17.220] As where's my box if they bring the red box down and it'll just be you know, it's it's literally split-second decisions about
[47:18.000 -> 47:20.480] Parliamentary answers yes or no invitations
[47:21.040 -> 47:25.520] You know ideas for people to hire people not to hire whatever I'd be and he'r bobl i'w hymdrechu, o gwir,
[47:25.520 -> 47:26.720] ac mae'n mynd drwy'r rhai
[47:26.720 -> 47:27.040] ac yn mynd,
[47:27.040 -> 47:28.960] ie, ie, ie, ie.
[47:28.960 -> 47:29.520] Dwi'n meddwl,
[47:29.520 -> 47:30.080] rwy'n meddwl,
[47:30.080 -> 47:31.280] oherwydd rwy'n cofio,
[47:31.280 -> 47:32.480] pan roeddwn yn paratoi ar hyn,
[47:32.480 -> 47:33.280] Alastair,
[47:33.280 -> 47:34.640] roeddwn i'n gweld
[47:34.640 -> 47:35.760] unrhyw ffilm
[47:35.760 -> 47:37.680] ar y technigaeth ymchwil David Frost
[47:37.680 -> 47:38.960] y gyda chi.
[47:38.960 -> 47:39.440] Ie.
[47:39.440 -> 47:41.040] Ac roedd y cwestiwn
[47:41.040 -> 47:41.840] y gyda chi
[47:41.840 -> 47:42.960] yn ei ddod o'r ffordd
[47:42.960 -> 47:43.760] i'w homage,
[47:43.760 -> 47:48.000] y byddai'n rhywbeth rydyn ni wedi'i paratoi i'r nifer ddiweddar,
[47:48.000 -> 47:50.000] ac yna dweud wrth Tony Blair,
[47:50.000 -> 47:50.840] a ydych chi'n gobeithio?
[47:50.840 -> 47:52.560] Ych chi'n gobeithio gyda George Bush?
[47:52.560 -> 47:54.880] Ac oedd Blair yn edrych yn fflummoch
[47:54.880 -> 47:56.080] ar sut i'w gysylltu.
[47:56.080 -> 47:58.080] Ac yr hyn sy'n ffasafol oedd,
[47:58.080 -> 47:59.680] yr hyn sydd wedi fy mwynhau oedd,
[47:59.680 -> 48:02.200] part oedd y cyfathrebu yno,
[48:02.200 -> 48:03.240] y gwybodaeth yn ei gysylltu,
[48:03.240 -> 48:04.080] yn hytrach na,
[48:04.080 -> 48:04.900] dweud yr ymwybyddion,
[48:04.900 -> 48:07.040] yn hytrach na, gallwch chi weld ein ffoment yn ceisio ddweud, sut byddai'n ddigwydd yn y ddinas. Where was authenticity in that, you know, in his answer rather than just tell the truth rather than you could see him almost on a second
[48:07.040 -> 48:09.800] Guess how it would play out politically. Yeah
[48:10.860 -> 48:16.980] That was that was I mean listen David Frost was I miss David Ross so much. He was a very good friend
[48:16.980 -> 48:21.480] I think he was a brilliant interviewer very underestimated because
[48:22.080 -> 48:29.160] He was nice to everybody particularly in this old blast couple of decades but he could absolutely get you right in the guts and
[48:29.160 -> 48:32.640] the thing is we did pride ourselves on thinking through every question that's
[48:32.640 -> 48:36.800] ever going to come up and that just that was sort of left field you know and he
[48:36.800 -> 48:40.160] was the way he did it as well days of
[48:42.040 -> 48:48.120] what was he what was he trying to get out of Tony do you think? David loved getting
[48:48.120 -> 48:52.000] stories. Yeah. He was probably trying to get something that would really make
[48:52.000 -> 48:57.520] news but also I think those questions do because the thing about the reason why
[48:57.520 -> 49:00.120] that was such an interesting moment for me I can't remember if I said this in the
[49:00.120 -> 49:05.000] documentary was because within that little exchange,
[49:05.220 -> 49:08.560] there's a whole backstory to do with the fact
[49:08.560 -> 49:12.520] that I always felt that politicians should stay out,
[49:12.520 -> 49:14.960] in the UK, should stay out of religion.
[49:14.960 -> 49:17.300] I think it's a dangerous territory.
[49:17.300 -> 49:19.320] I don't think people like it.
[49:19.320 -> 49:23.240] American presidents, they're expected to hold the Bible,
[49:23.240 -> 49:24.680] God bless America.
[49:24.680 -> 49:25.840] I think Britain's just different
[49:25.840 -> 49:29.320] I don't feel that British people really like it could be right could be wrong
[49:29.320 -> 49:34.840] But and we used to argue about that quite a lot and the one time when Tony sort of went his own way
[49:35.720 -> 49:38.520] And he wrote a piece for the telegram Tony is a you know
[49:38.520 -> 49:44.440] he's a big believer and his faith is incredibly important to him and he wrote a piece for the
[49:44.920 -> 49:46.960] Sunday telegraph it was,
[49:46.960 -> 49:48.560] what Easter means to me.
[49:49.720 -> 49:52.520] So I said, all right, okay, okay, on your own head be it.
[49:52.520 -> 49:55.400] If you want to do it, you do it, fine, okay, off you go.
[49:56.600 -> 49:59.280] He writes the piece, we send it through.
[49:59.280 -> 50:03.120] And I said, I'm just telling you, by Sunday lunchtime,
[50:03.120 -> 50:05.640] the news will be leading with the Tories accused
[50:05.640 -> 50:09.640] Tony Blair of saying that to be a Christian you have to vote Labour.
[50:09.640 -> 50:12.840] He said I'm not saying that. I said no you're not saying that. That is what they're gonna
[50:12.840 -> 50:19.400] say you are saying. Sure enough Brian McWhinney Tory Party chairman, future
[50:19.400 -> 50:23.040] president of the Bible Society or chairman of the Bible Society, so big believer
[50:23.040 -> 50:29.440] himself and that was the attack. So thereafter Tony never really went for it right but in a way it
[50:29.440 -> 50:34.600] was authentic he was saying the answer is no but I'm worried about where you
[50:34.600 -> 50:38.080] come from with this right that was authentic yeah it's a good reminder
[50:38.080 -> 50:41.080] though of the challenge for anyone whether they're in political life
[50:41.080 -> 50:45.080] sporting life if they're on the big stage, remaining authentic
[50:45.080 -> 50:47.240] is one of the biggest challenges, I think, for them, isn't it?
[50:47.240 -> 50:51.840] And the people that you've met over the years, the ones that have remained at the top, probably
[50:51.840 -> 50:54.760] authenticity is what they've managed to keep hold of, do you think?
[50:54.760 -> 50:58.880] I don't know why, when you said that, I thought of Putin again.
[50:58.880 -> 51:03.920] Was the Putin that we saw that the West thought was going to be a different sort of Russian
[51:03.920 -> 51:05.280] leader, was that authentic? Is the Putin that we see now authentic? We saw that the West thought was going to be a different sort of Russian leader.
[51:05.280 -> 51:07.360] Was that authentic?
[51:07.360 -> 51:09.040] Is the Putin that we see now authentic?
[51:09.040 -> 51:10.360] Are they both authentic?
[51:10.360 -> 51:14.040] Are they just different stages of the development of the same person?
[51:14.040 -> 51:15.040] I don't know.
[51:15.040 -> 51:16.360] But I think authenticity as well.
[51:16.360 -> 51:20.640] I think people sense if somebody's not comfortable in their own skin.
[51:20.640 -> 51:24.880] You know, I mean, I can't work out why anybody likes Boris Johnson as a prime minister, because
[51:24.880 -> 51:25.040] I've known him for a long time. I just, I can't work out why anybody likes Boris Johnson as a prime minister or something
[51:25.040 -> 51:28.340] I've known him for a long time as I can't work it out, but a lot of people do
[51:28.860 -> 51:31.020] And they sense something real
[51:31.700 -> 51:34.660] Now I send something real as well, and I really don't like it
[51:35.420 -> 51:38.420] Because I think actually it's that I think the whole thing's a construct
[51:39.300 -> 51:40.580] but
[51:40.580 -> 51:43.960] Maybe they're right. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't know. I just don't know
[51:44.580 -> 51:45.000] but I feel that I just don't know. I just don't know.
[51:45.000 -> 51:48.560] But I feel that, I feel to be authentic in,
[51:49.520 -> 51:50.840] I think you've got to be true to yourself
[51:50.840 -> 51:52.040] and being true to yourself,
[51:52.040 -> 51:54.440] a part of that is being, just being truthful.
[51:55.320 -> 51:56.160] Yeah.
[51:56.160 -> 51:57.520] And even if you don't like his politics
[51:57.520 -> 52:00.000] or what he stands for or the decisions he makes,
[52:01.080 -> 52:02.760] do you have admiration for the fact
[52:02.760 -> 52:07.280] that someone can create that world around them and get to the position that he's got to?
[52:07.800 -> 52:09.800] Regardless of how they've done it
[52:09.960 -> 52:15.960] Now I find it very hard to divorce him how they've done it. Yeah, I find that really hard you talk about worrying
[52:15.960 -> 52:18.000] I mean we got called liars the whole time
[52:18.000 -> 52:24.560] I get called liar every day on social media about Iraq 45 minutes to dodge dossier that every single day and
[52:25.640 -> 52:31.080] I know I didn't lie, but that's never going to make any difference to the people
[52:31.080 -> 52:32.080] who say that.
[52:32.080 -> 52:34.640] But I used to lose sleep about it.
[52:34.640 -> 52:39.520] Now, we now have a Prime Minister who does lie, and he lies in Parliament.
[52:39.520 -> 52:42.360] Do you think he loses sleep about it?
[52:42.360 -> 52:43.920] I don't think he does.
[52:43.920 -> 52:44.920] I don't know.
[52:44.920 -> 52:47.120] I don't know, but I don't think so.
[52:47.120 -> 52:49.600] And I think that's a real problem for our politics.
[52:49.600 -> 52:51.560] I think it's a real problem.
[52:51.560 -> 52:54.520] Once you play into that narrative, they're all in it for themselves.
[52:54.520 -> 52:55.520] They're all the same.
[52:55.520 -> 52:56.520] They're not all the same.
[52:56.520 -> 52:57.520] They're all very different.
[52:57.520 -> 53:01.120] And most people in politics are actually quite decent people, and quite a lot of them are
[53:01.120 -> 53:05.380] second rate, and quite a lot of them are, you know, you wouldn't necessarily want them
[53:05.380 -> 53:07.180] to sort of lead your country.
[53:07.180 -> 53:08.740] And I do think there's a referendum, you know,
[53:08.740 -> 53:11.500] I think winning a referendum when everybody knows,
[53:11.500 -> 53:13.500] whether you voted leave or remain,
[53:13.500 -> 53:16.160] I think we can all accept that they didn't necessarily
[53:16.160 -> 53:17.300] tell the truth, the whole truth,
[53:17.300 -> 53:19.300] and nothing but the truth the whole of the time.
[53:19.300 -> 53:22.820] Yet they won, and the guy who led that campaign,
[53:22.820 -> 53:24.860] with a lot of lying, his reward,
[53:24.860 -> 53:27.400] become foreign secretary under Theresa May,
[53:27.400 -> 53:30.440] and then next step he becomes prime minister.
[53:30.440 -> 53:33.280] I think that's a pretty bad message too.
[53:33.280 -> 53:35.160] So this is an interesting skill then
[53:35.160 -> 53:39.480] that I'm interested in without necessarily describing
[53:39.480 -> 53:42.180] Johnson was there must have been occasions
[53:42.180 -> 53:45.000] where you had to master the art of saying no or to respectfully disagree with people Byddai yna amserau y byddwch wedi cael ymweld â'r dylunio o ddweud nid,
[53:45.000 -> 53:48.480] neu o ddweud nid yn hynod ddiogel â phobl,
[53:48.480 -> 53:52.360] heb ddod allan neu greu damau collaterol.
[53:52.360 -> 53:53.760] Dwy gwestiynau, yw,
[53:53.760 -> 53:55.840] pa mor bwysig yw hyn fel sgiliau,
[53:55.840 -> 54:00.000] a sut ydych chi'n dweud nid yn succes i bobl?
[54:00.000 -> 54:01.840] Wel, gallwch ddod allan â phobl,
[54:01.840 -> 54:03.560] ond rwy'n credu,
[54:03.560 -> 54:05.680] rwy'n credu, mae'n mynd yn ôl I think it goes back to the point about strategy.
[54:05.680 -> 54:10.200] I think if you're working within a clear strategic framework,
[54:10.200 -> 54:13.200] most decisions ought to be fairly obvious.
[54:13.200 -> 54:15.880] The choices can become quite narrow.
[54:15.880 -> 54:20.080] But whether you want to do option A over option B,
[54:20.080 -> 54:22.280] or whether this is going to be your main priority,
[54:22.280 -> 54:24.320] or that's going to be your main priority,
[54:24.320 -> 54:27.460] they should be quite straightforward questions based upon the strategy that's agreed
[54:27.460 -> 54:28.040] All right
[54:28.040 -> 54:31.460] And then the rest becomes the negotiations and the tactics and what have you?
[54:31.760 -> 54:38.080] The only time I find it really difficult if I'm being absolutely honest was when most of the times on the policy stuff
[54:38.080 -> 54:40.960] I was fine. The only times I find it really difficult is when
[54:41.720 -> 54:43.720] personal and the political were
[54:44.060 -> 54:45.440] colliding.
[54:45.440 -> 54:47.040] Like when, for example?
[54:47.040 -> 54:50.720] Things like, so Fiona and I are both absolutely passionate
[54:50.720 -> 54:53.060] about comprehensive education, okay?
[54:53.060 -> 54:56.400] So some of the choices of school
[54:57.400 -> 54:58.760] that some of our people might make,
[54:58.760 -> 55:00.960] where I'm the person who's going out to defend it,
[55:00.960 -> 55:03.320] I find that quite difficult sometimes.
[55:03.320 -> 55:05.400] And the thing is, again, back to the whole thing about I
[55:05.820 -> 55:08.220] Would say not being a liar not being a very good liar
[55:08.780 -> 55:12.720] When I was doing the briefings of the media, they could always work out when I wasn't my my heart wasn't in it
[55:13.000 -> 55:15.540] the other thing I found difficult sometimes is when
[55:16.880 -> 55:23.860] People dress up what is essentially just a personality difference as some great political principle
[55:26.000 -> 55:28.240] You see in that bit in the football thing at the moment with the Super League when you
[55:28.240 -> 55:31.840] read that Super League statement and it's all about you know we're trying to
[55:31.840 -> 55:35.760] improve the women's game. We know what it's about. We know exactly what
[55:35.760 -> 55:40.000] it's about and that thing of you know that sense of I think the close Tony
[55:40.000 -> 55:43.880] Blair always used to say this about any situation the closer you can get to
[55:43.880 -> 55:45.960] saying the absolute truth about the situation the better
[55:46.300 -> 55:48.420] Now in politics just as in life sometimes
[55:49.200 -> 55:52.400] You know when you've reached a compromise position, you can't always
[55:53.800 -> 55:55.720] Say everything
[55:55.720 -> 56:01.040] So the question for an external audience is how do you balance that sense of you'd saying what's true?
[56:02.240 -> 56:08.160] But you're not saying everything about what's true. You're certain things. You're just not going to talk about that's a challenge though
[56:08.160 -> 56:08.480] Isn't it?
[56:08.480 -> 56:12.800] But I've read a brilliant book from have you read it Bob Ivers book the CEO of Disney Corporation?
[56:12.800 -> 56:18.280] No, we talked about his superpower being that he got to the point where he would only make a decision. He absolutely believed in
[56:19.160 -> 56:24.780] Totally wholeheartedly believed it was the right thing and you and then he could be questioned as much as you like because he totally believes
[56:24.780 -> 56:25.000] it He believed it was the right thing and you and then he could be questioned as much as you like because he totally believes it
[56:25.760 -> 56:32.040] Sometimes though you were probably in a position and people around you were in a position where as you've just described you couldn't tell
[56:33.720 -> 56:40.160] Everything you couldn't reveal everything because it you were in a political climate which made it a little bit more challenging
[56:40.640 -> 56:51.280] Yeah, sure. I think business is easier. And I think businesses accept that there's a much linear, the prime minister, the president,
[56:51.280 -> 56:52.280] they are at the top.
[56:52.280 -> 56:53.920] The cabinet is the next level.
[56:53.920 -> 56:57.880] But then within that, there'll be other people in and around.
[56:57.880 -> 56:59.120] There's no point in getting away from it.
[56:59.120 -> 57:02.000] Remember, Tessa Jowell once said to me that all these cabinet ministers, you try and get
[57:02.000 -> 57:05.760] them to Tony the whole time, he's never never gonna trust them as much as he trusts you
[57:05.760 -> 57:09.240] and three or four others who are absolutely his team.
[57:09.240 -> 57:11.880] So that's, you know, and I think working out that
[57:11.880 -> 57:15.400] is kind of part of the navigation of any organisation.
[57:15.400 -> 57:17.560] I can remember again, you talk about Alex Ferguson,
[57:17.560 -> 57:20.000] I can remember him once saying, you know,
[57:20.000 -> 57:22.160] if things are as bad between Tony and Gordon
[57:22.160 -> 57:24.820] as everybody's saying, why doesn't he just sack him?
[57:24.820 -> 57:28.160] And I'd say, well, because politics isn't the same as football.
[57:28.160 -> 57:32.440] You know, if you sack a number two or a player,
[57:32.440 -> 57:33.880] they have to go somewhere else.
[57:33.880 -> 57:34.360] Yeah.
[57:34.360 -> 57:37.120] In politics, they stay on the pitch.
[57:37.120 -> 57:37.800] Yeah.
[57:37.800 -> 57:39.720] So that's another part of the management.
[57:39.720 -> 57:50.420] You've got to work out what they will do if they're not at the top table. So you've seen people at the top of their game in business, in politics, in sport.
[57:50.420 -> 57:55.000] Of all the areas that you've sort of investigated over all the years you've done it, who gets
[57:55.000 -> 57:57.480] the mindset right the most do you think?
[57:57.480 -> 57:58.480] Sport.
[57:58.480 -> 57:59.480] Really?
[57:59.480 -> 58:00.480] By and large.
[58:00.480 -> 58:01.480] Why is that?
[58:01.480 -> 58:02.480] I don't know.
[58:02.480 -> 58:03.480] I mean, back to Dave Brailsford.
[58:03.480 -> 58:04.480] I can remember Dave Brailsford.
[58:04.480 -> 58:07.820] The last book I had out was volume 8 of my diaries 2010 to 2015
[58:08.020 -> 58:12.380] And Brailsford keeps popping up right partly because I'm doing some work with team sky
[58:12.820 -> 58:17.000] But every time he just says why haven't you got rid of the bed middle band yet?
[58:17.980 -> 58:20.420] So it's not as simple as that. Yes
[58:21.260 -> 58:25.040] You know, he's not gonna win. Everybody knows he's not gonna win. Why am I done it and
[58:26.600 -> 58:28.600] That is his mindset
[58:29.160 -> 58:31.160] Politics doesn't have that mindset
[58:31.440 -> 58:37.600] Would it benefit from that mindset or is it just not possible to get there because of everything around us the policy because there's so
[58:37.600 -> 58:43.680] Much involved in the politics, but I felt that I remember talking to was a macram the fast bowler
[58:44.400 -> 58:45.600] And I said,
[58:45.600 -> 58:47.000] this is another question I asked a lot of them,
[58:47.000 -> 58:48.400] what's the difference between wanting to win
[58:48.400 -> 58:49.240] and will to win?
[58:50.360 -> 58:52.320] And he said, everybody wants to win,
[58:52.320 -> 58:57.320] will to win is recognizing what is needed to be done
[58:57.600 -> 58:59.840] to put yourself in the best position to win
[58:59.840 -> 59:02.320] and having the capacity to do it.
[59:02.320 -> 59:03.920] Now, I think a lot of politics
[59:03.920 -> 59:05.480] and a lot of business don't have that.
[59:06.760 -> 59:09.640] Sport, I think the winners in sport do have that.
[59:09.640 -> 59:11.520] And I think maybe because sport,
[59:11.520 -> 59:13.520] maybe it's a cultural thing,
[59:13.520 -> 59:16.120] the rhythm of sport is such there's, you know,
[59:17.080 -> 59:19.720] a game every week, often two games a week,
[59:19.720 -> 59:22.040] real churn of personnel,
[59:22.040 -> 59:30.880] much faster than in business, much faster than in politics. Maybe they're just more accepting of that, mae'r cymhwysedd cymhwysol yn fwy cyflym na'r busnes, yn fwy cyflym na'r ymgyrch. Efallai yw'n cymryd ymwneud â'r angen ar gyfer y diwydiant cyfansodol o cyfnod a newid.
[59:31.840 -> 59:36.160] Ond rydw i'n meddwl, ar y cyfnod lle rydw i'n meddwl y bydd y ymgyrch yn cynhyrchu'r ffyrdd fwyaf
[59:36.800 -> 59:42.720] a'r ffyrdd fwyaf yn cael eu cymryd, rydw i'n dweud eu bod yn y tŷ o'u gweithle ar ôl
[59:46.000 -> 59:52.000] Ie, rydw i'n dweud eu bod nhw'n gyfrif o'r sport a'r busnes. Felly, gallaf gofyn i chi am eich profiad gyda'r Llywodraethau yn y 05,
[59:52.000 -> 59:55.000] oherwydd roedd hynny'n profiad ddiddorol i chi,
[59:55.000 -> 59:58.000] lle rydych chi'n mynd i mewn i mewnghywir,
[59:58.000 -> 01:00:00.000] lle mae'n mynd yn iawn yn iawn,
[01:00:00.000 -> 01:00:03.000] mewn lle mae'r meddwl yn bwysig iawn.
[01:00:03.000 -> 01:00:05.000] Felly, oedd yn ymwneud â hynny,
[01:00:05.000 -> 01:00:07.000] beth yw'r peth y gwnaethoch chi ei weld
[01:00:07.000 -> 01:00:09.000] oedd yn gwaed yn y cyfle honno?
[01:00:09.000 -> 01:00:11.000] I fod yn ddod yn dda i Clive Woodward
[01:00:11.000 -> 01:00:13.000] a'i tîm,
[01:00:13.000 -> 01:00:15.000] dydyn nhw ddim yn gwaed yn llawn,
[01:00:15.000 -> 01:00:17.000] hefyd yn ystod y gwaith o'r All Blacks
[01:00:17.000 -> 01:00:19.000] o'r amser pan oedd y All Blacks yn anhygoel.
[01:00:19.000 -> 01:00:21.000] Felly os ydych chi'n meddwl am OST,
[01:00:21.000 -> 01:00:23.000] ymwneud â
[01:00:23.000 -> 01:00:29.480] gwynebu, dyna'r bwysigst ddau gweithgaredd ar gyfer un a thîm arall, OST, objective to win, you know it's the best of three series against one other team, it's
[01:00:29.480 -> 01:00:35.920] utterly crazy to go there thinking objective not to get humiliated, objective to win, Clive's
[01:00:35.920 -> 01:00:42.360] strategy I think he would have defined as best ever preparation for a Lions tour, I
[01:00:42.360 -> 01:00:46.200] think he did that, and then, you know, I guess I was
[01:00:46.200 -> 01:00:48.520] in the tactical expression really.
[01:00:48.520 -> 01:00:51.600] And I did say to him, to be fair to myself,
[01:00:51.600 -> 01:00:53.120] I said to Clive, right at the word go,
[01:00:53.120 -> 01:00:54.520] when he asked me, I said, look Clive,
[01:00:54.520 -> 01:00:56.720] I'm up for this, but I think it's a mistake.
[01:00:58.000 -> 01:00:58.840] Why?
[01:00:58.840 -> 01:01:01.660] Because I think there'll be too much focus on me.
[01:01:03.040 -> 01:01:04.920] I think people will think it's a bit odd,
[01:01:04.920 -> 01:01:05.280] but I'm really
[01:01:05.280 -> 01:01:10.040] up for it because just from my own perspective I'd left in to number 10
[01:01:10.040 -> 01:01:16.040] 2003 went back for the 2005 campaign didn't want to go back and to have the
[01:01:16.040 -> 01:01:20.400] I think it was two weeks between the election and leaving it was May 25th
[01:01:20.400 -> 01:01:22.840] remember because it's my birthday and it's when Liverpool won the Champions
[01:01:22.840 -> 01:01:28.280] League but I was up for doing it because and he said well look you know the press
[01:01:28.280 -> 01:01:32.880] say that the Lions media operation last time was rubbish I'm confident you can
[01:01:32.880 -> 01:01:37.720] make it good that'll help them that'll help us and actually I think to be fair
[01:01:37.720 -> 01:01:48.180] I think Clyde would say that I was able to add something in terms of mindset and and I and I got on really well with some of the players
[01:01:48.180 -> 01:01:51.780] Not all of them. I've gone really well with the Irish and the Welsh in particular
[01:01:52.260 -> 01:01:53.340] some of the English guys
[01:01:53.340 -> 01:01:57.580] but but some of them I think we're just they were like they were very much in the kind of
[01:01:58.020 -> 01:02:02.180] What does he know about rugby? We sure defeated the point? Yeah. Yeah
[01:02:02.700 -> 01:02:05.780] I wasn't there for one you about rugby was there for one year about the media
[01:02:05.780 -> 01:02:07.780] I won't you about
[01:02:08.040 -> 01:02:10.280] strategy team ship leadership, etc and
[01:02:11.360 -> 01:02:15.640] So I really really enjoyed it. Some of the players have stayed I've stayed very good friends with I
[01:02:16.240 -> 01:02:18.240] Learn a lot from watching
[01:02:18.720 -> 01:02:23.480] That what and the inside of an elite sports organization looks like and I really enjoyed it
[01:02:23.920 -> 01:02:29.040] But I wouldn't do it again if the one personal learning I took out of that
[01:02:29.560 -> 01:02:33.700] Was that I can't do another media communications job. Why?
[01:02:34.520 -> 01:02:36.520] because it became about me and
[01:02:37.240 -> 01:02:40.280] It would probably do that if I did it. So I'm happy
[01:02:40.880 -> 01:02:43.340] I've gone I've done I do loads of media stuff, right?
[01:02:43.340 -> 01:02:46.360] But I do it very much as always part of a team,
[01:02:46.360 -> 01:02:50.400] don't want to be number one, just kind of hang back a bit.
[01:02:50.400 -> 01:02:51.240] Interesting.
[01:02:51.240 -> 01:02:53.320] But before we move on to our quick fire questions
[01:02:53.320 -> 01:02:55.820] at the end of the pod, I just want to move back briefly
[01:02:55.820 -> 01:02:58.120] to when we discussed your journey with mental health.
[01:02:58.120 -> 01:03:00.520] I think it's really important for people listening to this
[01:03:00.520 -> 01:03:04.580] who maybe have had or are having similar experiences.
[01:03:04.580 -> 01:03:09.720] You've also spoken powerfully about the benefits of the problems that you've had with mental
[01:03:09.720 -> 01:03:13.640] health and how you get positives as well as negatives.
[01:03:13.640 -> 01:03:15.720] Would you talk about that for a second for us?
[01:03:15.720 -> 01:03:19.720] Well, I think, you know, I know you talk a lot on the podcast about resilience.
[01:03:19.720 -> 01:03:21.480] I think I'm a very resilient person.
[01:03:21.480 -> 01:03:26.720] I think the resilience comes from having been through a lot of mental health stuff, not just my own, but family.
[01:03:26.720 -> 01:03:29.280] And, you know, you get, I get resilience from,
[01:03:29.280 -> 01:03:30.800] I had a brother who had schizophrenia.
[01:03:32.320 -> 01:03:34.960] He's sadly dead now, but I got a lot of resilience
[01:03:34.960 -> 01:03:37.280] from the way he dealt with that.
[01:03:37.280 -> 01:03:38.960] And the way I helped him to deal with that.
[01:03:39.680 -> 01:03:42.000] I get resilience from the fact that my son,
[01:03:42.000 -> 01:03:45.960] Touchwood is still eight years without a drink.
[01:03:45.960 -> 01:03:48.040] So I think resilience, I think for me,
[01:03:48.040 -> 01:03:52.480] I think a lot of my creativity comes from the mood swings.
[01:03:52.480 -> 01:03:53.840] Some of the best work I ever do
[01:03:53.840 -> 01:03:56.360] comes when I'm coming out of a depression.
[01:03:56.360 -> 01:03:57.800] And some of the best,
[01:03:59.600 -> 01:04:01.240] you'll be glad to hear I didn't bring my bagpipes,
[01:04:01.240 -> 01:04:03.480] but some of the best bagpipe music I've written
[01:04:03.480 -> 01:04:10.400] comes when I'm going into a depression. creativity I think comes from it and I think also I give myself a yardstick
[01:04:11.240 -> 01:04:16.680] Everything I do and how I feel about what I do and I measure it against the worst times
[01:04:16.680 -> 01:04:19.440] Yeah, so I can sometimes be very very depressed
[01:04:19.920 -> 01:04:23.280] But even in those depressed moments, I'll say well look this wasn't as bad as
[01:04:23.800 -> 01:04:25.360] and I've got my dates in mind
[01:04:25.360 -> 01:04:27.000] and I'll say and then I'll
[01:04:27.000 -> 01:04:30.400] It just gives me a little bit of a tick to kind of move back into
[01:04:31.040 -> 01:04:32.960] The better side of my depression scale
[01:04:32.960 -> 01:04:37.280] I think it's an important thing for people to hear isn't it because there will be people listening to this that
[01:04:37.600 -> 01:04:41.680] Are in the dark place and they haven't yet. Well, listen a lot of your depressions
[01:04:42.080 -> 01:04:49.200] You know, I think we're finally moving to the place where would people accept is an illness in that you won't have was John Gregory said
[01:04:50.240 -> 01:04:52.240] John Gregory said to one of his players
[01:04:52.440 -> 01:04:57.600] To Stan Cullen what you've got to be depressed about? Yeah, you're playing football. You know, it totally
[01:04:59.280 -> 01:05:03.040] Misunderstands that depression has got nothing to do with your background your wealth
[01:05:04.480 -> 01:05:07.340] It's it's an illness some people get it some people don't
[01:05:08.280 -> 01:05:11.400] And yeah, I'm sure if you've got a quarter of a million people listen to this
[01:05:12.380 -> 01:05:18.000] I've been getting the figures on your downloads then there's no doubt. Yeah, a lot of them will be struggling
[01:05:18.600 -> 01:05:25.720] And you've obviously in your book mentioned Billy Bane. He talks about you know, extreme people Dave Brailsford talks about extreme people
[01:05:26.120 -> 01:05:30.260] Anyone that you've met who is at the absolute top is an extreme person
[01:05:30.640 -> 01:05:36.520] Do you think that they're generally happy or do you think that with extreme success and creativity?
[01:05:36.960 -> 01:05:39.560] There's a path. I think there is a trade-off between
[01:05:41.080 -> 01:05:45.060] And I also I think there are successful people who aren't necessarily extreme. I
[01:05:46.140 -> 01:05:47.520] Thought I was really interesting the day
[01:05:47.520 -> 01:05:52.780] I read that thing about Mick Jagger sent a million quid his million quid advance back on his autobiography
[01:05:53.380 -> 01:05:56.440] Today why he's decided he we just couldn't face writing it
[01:05:58.620 -> 01:06:01.520] Yeah, that's all fair enough I also wondered whether that was a
[01:06:02.680 -> 01:06:06.400] Whether that was a he is not an extreme mindset.
[01:06:06.400 -> 01:06:08.000] I don't know, I don't know.
[01:06:08.000 -> 01:06:10.040] But I think it's possible to be successful
[01:06:10.040 -> 01:06:12.200] without being extreme, but I think to be,
[01:06:12.200 -> 01:06:13.800] I think if I look at the list of the people
[01:06:13.800 -> 01:06:18.320] on the front cover, most of them are extreme personalities.
[01:06:18.320 -> 01:06:21.360] And can people get to the objective
[01:06:21.360 -> 01:06:22.560] just by chance and luck?
[01:06:22.560 -> 01:06:23.920] Have you met those people as well?
[01:06:23.920 -> 01:06:25.800] Or pretty much everyone that gets to the top,
[01:06:25.800 -> 01:06:28.520] they use OST, SLT?
[01:06:28.520 -> 01:06:32.000] Oh no, I think luck's still incredibly important.
[01:06:32.000 -> 01:06:34.640] I think a lot of people still make it to the top on luck.
[01:06:34.640 -> 01:06:37.240] But I think if you're looking at the people who've,
[01:06:37.240 -> 01:06:41.880] certainly you look at people like Brailsford, Marino.
[01:06:41.880 -> 01:06:44.440] I remember talking to Michael Phelps, the swimmer,
[01:06:44.440 -> 01:06:45.280] and I mean, he struck me as a Phelps the swimmer and and I mean
[01:06:46.040 -> 01:06:48.680] He struck me as a guy who was in pain a lot of the time
[01:06:49.640 -> 01:06:51.640] You know that training was painful
[01:06:52.120 -> 01:06:56.520] You can imagine the training yet to do just up and down a bloody swimming pool
[01:06:56.520 -> 01:06:59.040] I mean I do 20 minutes in the Lido every morning, right?
[01:06:59.280 -> 01:07:04.660] I'm bored rigid by 10 and the next 10 minutes is just it's a real struggle, right?
[01:07:04.660 -> 01:07:08.640] so if you're doing that, so I think the I think most of them have got a
[01:07:09.480 -> 01:07:11.480] An extreme mindset and I think they do pay a price
[01:07:12.280 -> 01:07:19.480] Quite quick for questions. Go on the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you have to buy into
[01:07:20.400 -> 01:07:22.520] Obsession with winning and understanding. That's a good thing
[01:07:23.600 -> 01:07:25.000] Shouldn't be frowned upon absolute openness and honesty with each other and Mae'n ddiddorol gyda'r wyneb a deall mai dyna'n beth da. Nid yw'n rhaid i chi fod yn ymweld â hyn.
[01:07:25.000 -> 01:07:27.000] Yn gyfartal â'r unigol,
[01:07:27.000 -> 01:07:29.000] yn agos a'n ddiddorol gyda'r unigol,
[01:07:29.000 -> 01:07:32.000] ac yn deall
[01:07:32.000 -> 01:07:34.000] bod penderfyniadau da i gyd
[01:07:34.000 -> 01:07:36.000] o unrhyw le.
[01:07:36.000 -> 01:07:38.000] Ac nid yw ganddo
[01:07:38.000 -> 01:07:39.000] hyrarchiaeth iddo.
[01:07:39.000 -> 01:07:41.000] Ac mae rhai o'r penderfyniadau gyda'r unigol
[01:07:41.000 -> 01:07:43.000] o bobl sydd ddim yn penderfynu
[01:07:43.000 -> 01:07:44.000] i fod yn dda.
[01:07:44.000 -> 01:07:46.560] Felly pa sylwadau byddwch chi'n rhoi i'r teenage jellister sy'n dechrau ar eich gyrfa? ideas come from people that aren't paid to have good ideas. Yeah. So what advice would you give a teenage jealous that
[01:07:46.560 -> 01:07:48.720] just starting out on your journey?
[01:07:48.720 -> 01:07:49.720] Don't drink so much.
[01:07:51.040 -> 01:07:53.960] I think I've done better with my life than I thought
[01:07:53.960 -> 01:07:55.760] I would was a teenager.
[01:07:55.760 -> 01:07:56.600] Right.
[01:07:56.600 -> 01:07:59.600] By, so what I'd say to any teenager is don't,
[01:07:59.600 -> 01:08:01.880] try not to narrow your horizons.
[01:08:03.000 -> 01:08:06.720] And, and, and don't imagine there's anything that you
[01:08:06.720 -> 01:08:10.960] couldn't do if you really really set your mind to it. The only thing that I've
[01:08:10.960 -> 01:08:15.160] thought of I should have done and could have done which I've never done is to go
[01:08:15.160 -> 01:08:20.080] into elected politics myself and there's always been a good sort of tactical
[01:08:20.080 -> 01:08:24.360] reason for that to do with timing and doing other things and what have you but
[01:08:24.360 -> 01:08:26.480] that's the one bit of my life that
[01:08:26.480 -> 01:08:28.120] I've not done
[01:08:28.120 -> 01:08:32.160] And I think it's too late to be honest and I just don't see a way in at the moment
[01:08:32.160 -> 01:08:34.400] I'll tell you now I'll tell you what it is. I
[01:08:35.040 -> 01:08:37.960] Didn't work hard enough at university. I wish I had
[01:08:39.040 -> 01:08:41.760] I think I wasted I think I think when you're
[01:08:42.600 -> 01:08:46.320] In a position where you can just you're just there to try and develop your brain
[01:08:46.800 -> 01:08:48.160] Develop it
[01:08:48.160 -> 01:08:50.320] And I didn't I punish my brain quite a lot
[01:08:50.920 -> 01:08:55.840] Talking of developing brains. Can you give our community one book recommendation?
[01:08:56.080 -> 01:08:58.440] It can't really be one of your own coming with my own
[01:08:58.440 -> 01:09:03.360] Yeah, we're gonna know about them already. You've done a very nice plug for one of mine two of mine
[01:09:03.360 -> 01:09:06.440] Yeah, and I plugged a couple. This is probably the wrong book
[01:09:07.600 -> 01:09:09.600] Well, we can all learn from everything. So well
[01:09:09.600 -> 01:09:12.320] I'll tell you the reason I want to say this is because
[01:09:12.760 -> 01:09:18.360] one of the things I've been doing in lockdown is I did German French and German at university and I lost my German and
[01:09:19.760 -> 01:09:21.480] I
[01:09:21.480 -> 01:09:27.160] Didn't lose it all but I lost all of it. So during lockdown, I've been relearning my German for these curtains to courses
[01:09:27.320 -> 01:09:30.120] So I'm only listening to German podcasts, obviously pop yours
[01:09:30.600 -> 01:09:36.480] I'm only reading German books and I'm watching those of German films and I've just read the book
[01:09:36.480 -> 01:09:42.760] Do you remember the German goalkeeper Robert Inca? Oh, yeah who killed himself? Yeah. Yeah, so I've just read his
[01:09:43.600 -> 01:09:45.600] biography written by his best friend and
[01:09:45.740 -> 01:09:51.740] The reason I mentioned that as I think a very legitimate book to read in relation to high performance. He was a high performer
[01:09:52.520 -> 01:09:56.680] And in the end he was still I think in that culture
[01:09:57.760 -> 01:10:03.320] Where people in sport and I think German sports actually pretty amazing for lots and lots of reasons
[01:10:03.320 -> 01:10:05.640] We see it get in the Super League debate
[01:10:09.860 -> 01:10:10.560] But I think it was still thought that that John Gregory attitude
[01:10:12.560 -> 01:10:12.960] was kind of prevalent and
[01:10:16.880 -> 01:10:17.560] So I think if somebody wants to read how it is possible
[01:10:19.560 -> 01:10:20.040] To be incredibly high-performing
[01:10:23.200 -> 01:10:23.720] Incredibly good at what you do a really nice person
[01:10:27.440 -> 01:10:28.020] But still find that life's unbearable and nice and tolerable. It's an amazing book
[01:10:32.420 -> 01:10:33.440] So how important is legacy to you? I don't think it is because I think
[01:10:36.400 -> 01:10:37.400] remember when I quit in 2003 and
[01:10:42.280 -> 01:10:46.820] It was sort of big on the news or I mean we got home Fiona and I got home and our two boys were sitting Watching the telly. They'd been on the news all day, Sky, 24-hour news, et cetera.
[01:10:46.820 -> 01:10:48.500] And so I said, what were they all saying then?
[01:10:48.500 -> 01:10:50.340] And Rory must have said, oh, the obvious stuff.
[01:10:50.340 -> 01:10:53.100] He said, the only interesting one was Anne Whittaker.
[01:10:53.100 -> 01:10:56.800] Oh, I said, well, she said, if you carry on
[01:10:56.800 -> 01:10:58.100] the way you are on the mental health stuff,
[01:10:58.100 -> 01:11:00.460] that's what you'll be remembered for, rather than all this.
[01:11:00.460 -> 01:11:01.300] Yeah.
[01:11:01.300 -> 01:11:02.120] Is that right?
[01:11:02.120 -> 01:11:02.960] Yeah.
[01:11:02.960 -> 01:11:04.560] So I thought, that's all right.
[01:11:04.560 -> 01:11:08.960] So I'd like to think that I've got a lot still to do in the mental health arena
[01:11:09.440 -> 01:11:13.400] But I think we saw about legacy in politics. I mean, there's only the only people
[01:11:14.400 -> 01:11:19.240] I mean Tony Blair's got a big legacy, right, you know, it's mixed for some people
[01:11:19.240 -> 01:11:21.960] It's Iraq for other people is Northern Ireland minimum wage, etc
[01:11:22.400 -> 01:11:26.320] But not many public not many people in politics have real legacy.
[01:11:26.320 -> 01:11:27.800] So I don't worry about that.
[01:11:27.800 -> 01:11:28.640] Very good.
[01:11:28.640 -> 01:11:30.680] And finally, for all of our community,
[01:11:30.680 -> 01:11:32.000] our listeners, our viewers,
[01:11:32.000 -> 01:11:35.760] your one golden rule for living a high performance life.
[01:11:36.720 -> 01:11:39.080] Only one, my one rule is strategy is God.
[01:11:40.120 -> 01:11:41.360] Strategie is God.
[01:11:42.840 -> 01:11:45.000] Well, vielen dank for joining us on the podcast.
[01:11:45.000 -> 01:11:47.000] Mein verfliegen.
[01:11:47.000 -> 01:11:49.000] Much appreciated, that's where my German ends.
[01:11:49.000 -> 01:11:53.000] What about you, you haven't got into talking German with Mr. Farker?
[01:11:53.000 -> 01:11:55.000] No, not really, no. He's English, he's good enough.
[01:11:55.000 -> 01:11:56.000] Yeah, he's good.
[01:11:56.000 -> 01:11:57.000] Thank you, that was nice to meet you.
[01:11:57.000 -> 01:11:58.000] Thank you, really interesting.
[01:11:58.000 -> 01:11:59.000] Thank you.
[01:12:00.000 -> 01:12:08.480] Damien, Jake, you know what I find really interesting about talking to Alistair Campbell is when you consider the people that he spent time with whether it's sir
[01:12:08.480 -> 01:12:14.520] Alex Ferguson them the psychologist Steve Peters, maybe Dave Brailsford as well. I
[01:12:16.000 -> 01:12:21.800] Sometimes think that we have this belief that if we spend all of our time talking to high achieving individuals and learning then all our
[01:12:21.800 -> 01:12:22.880] struggles disappear
[01:12:22.880 -> 01:12:27.840] But I think Alistair is testament to the factio'r ffaith bod eich bod yn dal i gael hysbysedd bob amser, yn rhydol
[01:12:27.840 -> 01:12:30.240] o'r pethau rydych chi'n gwybod ac yr holl bobl rydych chi'n gwrtho ac
[01:12:30.240 -> 01:12:34.080] nid ymhellach sut y gall byw byw i chi. I rai ohonom ni, mae'n rhaid iddo
[01:12:34.080 -> 01:12:36.320] fod yn heriol ar gyfer y cwestiwn ac mae Alistair yn, ydych chi'n gwybod, un o'r
[01:12:36.320 -> 01:12:39.120] cymhwysterau o rywun sy'n ymghyrchu ar hynny'n gyfansodd i'r holl amser.
[01:12:39.120 -> 01:12:42.480] Ie, rwy'n credu, y phrasau rydyn ni wedi'i ddefnyddio cyn i Jake yw, y gwybod,
[01:12:42.480 -> 01:12:49.920] ymdrechion fel yr oedd Alistair yn ei ddysgrifio, mae'n ffwrdd yn ein chymdeithas, nid yn ein perthynas, felly mae'n ddysgrifiaeth meddygol ac rwy'n credu
[01:12:50.560 -> 01:12:56.320] i'r rhai o ni sy'n rhaid i ni ymgyrchu'r heriau o'r mathau iechyd mental hynny
[01:12:56.320 -> 01:13:01.120] fel yr oedd yn ei ddysgrifio, rwy'n credu bod yn mynd a bod yn agor ar fynediadau newydd yn dda
[01:13:01.120 -> 01:13:28.720] ac mae hynny'n unig yr hyn y mae'n ei wneud, ond mae'n amweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud normality people who don't struggle with mental health compared to those that do it doesn't mean that those that have mental health struggles are not also
[01:13:28.720 -> 01:13:34.120] people of real worth real value and high achievers I know that a few years ago
[01:13:34.120 -> 01:13:38.720] Alistair he wrote a booklet with Nigel Jones the mental health campaign a
[01:13:38.720 -> 01:13:41.840] good time to change and in it they looked at Winston Churchill Abraham
[01:13:41.840 -> 01:13:45.200] Lincoln Charles Darwin Florence Nightingale and Marie
[01:13:45.200 -> 01:13:48.380] Curie. I mean if we're talking about five people that have pretty much changed the course
[01:13:48.380 -> 01:13:53.360] of history, right, you can mention those five. All five of them struggled with mental health
[01:13:53.360 -> 01:13:57.920] problems, struggled with, you know, depression. In Churchill's case, you know, he had manic
[01:13:57.920 -> 01:14:04.840] depression, didn't he? You know, some of them had bipolar, all kinds of different mental
[01:14:04.840 -> 01:14:05.500] health problems, yet there was a real value to those people. And I think we always have rhai o'r rhai oedd yn cael bipolar, pob math o broblemau iechyd mental gwahanol,
[01:14:05.500 -> 01:14:08.500] ond roedd yna ddifrifol i'r bobl hynny,
[01:14:08.500 -> 01:14:11.000] ac rwy'n credu ein bod yn ganddo'n golygu'n ddiweddar i ni.
[01:14:11.000 -> 01:14:12.500] Ie, gwirfoddol.
[01:14:12.500 -> 01:14:14.500] Rwy'n credu, rwy'n ddiddorol iawn o Alistair
[01:14:14.500 -> 01:14:17.000] am y gallu o gael ymrwymo i ddod a siarad
[01:14:17.000 -> 01:14:19.000] yn dda iawn o gwmpas hwnnw.
[01:14:19.000 -> 01:14:21.000] Roeddwn i'n llyfr y blynyddoedd hwn o'r wythnos
[01:14:21.000 -> 01:14:24.500] gan y comediwn a'i gynnal, Rob Beckett,
[01:14:24.500 -> 01:14:28.560] sy'n siarad hefyd am eich bod wedi wedi cael heriau iechyd dynol iawn.
[01:14:28.560 -> 01:14:32.400] Ac yr hyn sy'n fy nhrebu pan ddweudais hynny, gweithiau yw Alastair, Rob neu
[01:14:32.400 -> 01:14:36.640] unrhyw un arall, yw dim ond y gofod i ddod a rannu hynny, i wneud
[01:14:36.640 -> 01:14:40.560] eu hunain yn anodd, i ddweud i bobl, dyma'r heriau rydyn ni wedi'u cael,
[01:14:40.560 -> 01:14:46.960] oherwydd rwy'n credu o'r anodd honno, mae'n sgript gwir'n wir. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn sgriptio arnyn nhw fel unigolion
[01:14:46.960 -> 01:14:52.560] yn rannu'r sgriptio, ond sgriptio ar gyfer pobl eraill i ddeall bod ni i gyd yn cael amserau anodd
[01:14:52.560 -> 01:14:58.320] weithiau, ac mae'n ymwneud â meddwl am yr ymdrech rydyn ni'n ei ddangos i'r rhai eraill, yn ddiogel i'r rhai eraill, yn
[01:14:58.320 -> 01:15:27.280] ddiogel ac, rwy'n credu, fod y type o bobl sy'n fynd iig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig yn ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in ychydig in the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the Never understand. There's a really nice bit in Alistair's book, and if you want to get it, you can find it anywhere.
[01:15:27.280 -> 01:15:28.840] It's called Winners, it's brilliant.
[01:15:28.840 -> 01:15:30.560] He talks a bit in his book about the fact
[01:15:30.560 -> 01:15:33.600] that people who suffer with mental health problems
[01:15:33.600 -> 01:15:35.200] carry almost more of a value,
[01:15:35.200 -> 01:15:36.320] because he talks about the fact
[01:15:36.320 -> 01:15:39.680] that people who've had depression have had such lows
[01:15:39.680 -> 01:15:42.760] that they can then sort of envisage life
[01:15:42.760 -> 01:15:44.480] through many different outcomes,
[01:15:44.480 -> 01:15:45.900] often the bad outcomes, right?
[01:15:45.900 -> 01:15:50.700] So he talks about when Winston Churchill was was fearful of
[01:15:50.700 -> 01:15:53.300] Nazi Germany and fearful of Hitler and there was kind of
[01:15:53.300 -> 01:15:57.400] this feeling that the other leaders weren't quite so worried
[01:15:57.400 -> 01:15:58.700] about what they were going to do.
[01:15:58.900 -> 01:16:02.800] He sort of he talks in his book about did the depressive
[01:16:02.800 -> 01:16:06.000] instincts that Churchill had make him kind of more realistic about the threat that Germany posed which I think is a really interesting way of looking at it. y llyfr yw, a oedd y meddwlau depressif y mae Churchill wedi'u gwneud i ni, yn gwneud yn fwy realistig y
[01:16:06.000 -> 01:16:10.000] drwyddiad y ymdrechondd Germaniaid, sy'n ddweud y bydd yn ffordd ddiddorol iawn o edrych arno.
[01:16:10.000 -> 01:16:14.000] Y bobl sydd wedi cael y strydiau o iechyd meddwl yno, efallai, yn fwy empathetig i'r rhai eraill.
[01:16:14.000 -> 01:16:19.000] Ie, yn unig, oherwydd rydych chi wedi dod i'r ben ychydig o'r pwll,
[01:16:19.000 -> 01:16:23.000] gallwch weld y pethau pwysau rydyn ni'n byw trwy ac felly,
[01:16:23.000 -> 01:16:26.000] y phrasau rydyn ni wedi ei ddefnyddio cyn i ni siarad am
[01:16:26.000 -> 01:16:31.520] ymdrechion, os gallwch chi ystyried y gorau o sefyllfa ac gwybod eich bod yn gallu ei gyrraedd,
[01:16:31.520 -> 01:16:36.960] popeth yna, y byddwch chi'n teimlo'n ddigon gwych i gael y gwrtho â'i gilydd.
[01:16:36.960 -> 01:16:39.680] Roeddwn i'n siarad gyda ffrind o fyny yn ddiweddar, yw un o'r fyny, yw Carl Perry,
[01:16:39.680 -> 01:17:06.160] a oedd ddau blynedd yn ôl, wel, oedd wedi marod acn dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud y byddai'n dweud yynhyrchu, mae ganddyn nhw'r gallu i gyd ymdrechu unrhyw beth
[01:17:06.160 -> 01:17:08.400] mewn ffordd ddifrifol iawn,
[01:17:08.400 -> 01:17:10.960] sy'n unig yr hyn y mae'n ei ddysgu,
[01:17:10.960 -> 01:17:13.920] oherwydd, oherwydd yw Churchill, neu, yn y fath o Alasdair Campbell,
[01:17:13.920 -> 01:17:16.240] mae'r perspectif yn gallu bod yn ddod o'r ffordd fwyaf.
[01:17:16.240 -> 01:17:18.040] Ac roeddwn i hefyd yn hoffi OST.
[01:17:18.040 -> 01:17:18.960] Ie.
[01:17:18.960 -> 01:17:21.200] Objective Strategy Tactics.
[01:17:21.200 -> 01:17:22.960] Ie, oherwydd, eto, mae'n dod yn ôl i...
[01:17:22.960 -> 01:17:25.560] Dwi'n gwybod ein bod yn dweud rhai o'n ffrasau,
[01:17:25.560 -> 01:17:26.880] ond, rydych chi'n gwybod,
[01:17:26.880 -> 01:17:28.840] bod yn glir ymlaen ymlaen ym mhob le rydych chi eisiau mynd i,
[01:17:28.840 -> 01:17:31.000] ond yn ddefnyddol ym mhob le rydych chi'n mynd yno,
[01:17:31.000 -> 01:17:33.280] mae'n gyffredin gwych o'r hyn sy'n ei ddysgrifio Alastair yno,
[01:17:33.280 -> 01:17:35.440] mae'n cael un objectif yn glir iawn
[01:17:35.440 -> 01:17:36.560] a strategaeth,
[01:17:36.560 -> 01:17:38.160] ond yna bydd y tactigau
[01:17:38.160 -> 01:17:41.000] yn rhaid iddo fod yn ddefnyddol ac yn newid.
[01:17:41.000 -> 01:17:42.000] Mae'n ddifrifol iawn,
[01:17:42.000 -> 01:17:46.000] rwy'n hoff iawn o'r acronym Alastair i'w ddysgrifio. Mae'n ddifrifol iawn, diolch yn fawr, mate. Diolifrifol. Rwy'n hoffi'r acronym Alastair i'w ddysgu.
[01:17:46.000 -> 01:17:47.000] Mae'n dda iawn, diolch yn fawr, mate.
[01:17:47.000 -> 01:17:48.000] Diolch, Jake. Rwy'n hoffi'r acronym.
[01:17:52.000 -> 01:17:54.000] Un o'r cyflwyniadau o'r diweddorion diwethaf
[01:17:54.000 -> 01:17:55.000] oedd Damien a fi
[01:17:55.000 -> 01:17:58.000] yn siarad â'r cwmnio'r podcast High Performance.
[01:17:58.000 -> 01:18:00.000] Felly os ydych chi eisiau rannu eich stori,
[01:18:00.000 -> 01:18:01.000] os ydych chi'n hoffi'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i glywed,
[01:18:01.000 -> 01:18:02.000] os ydych chi wedi cael ymddygiad,
[01:18:02.000 -> 01:18:03.000] os ydych chi wedi cael ymddygiad, os ydych chi wedi cael ymddygiad,
[01:18:03.000 -> 01:18:04.000] os ydych chi wedi cael y cwmni,
[01:18:04.000 -> 01:18:06.020] felly, dweud yn dda, i ddod allan i ni. Instagram mae'n edrych yn dda iawn. If you like what you've heard if you've got a comment if you've got a thought if you've got a question Please feel free to reach out to us
[01:18:06.900 -> 01:18:11.620] Instagram seems pretty popular. You can find Damien at liquid thinker. The podcast is at high performance
[01:18:11.620 -> 01:18:18.820] I am at Jay Comfrey and we had a lovely message from Laura who got in touch to say she's a professional triathlete
[01:18:18.820 -> 01:18:23.500] She's a four times Ironman champion and she said I'm sure you get a zillion messages like this
[01:18:23.500 -> 01:18:25.320] But I've been a listener to the podcast for a
[01:18:25.320 -> 01:18:29.280] long time. Love the John McAvoy chat. John is amazing with how
[01:18:29.280 -> 01:18:32.660] he lives his life, his outlook and his approach. She sent this
[01:18:32.660 -> 01:18:35.240] when she was partway through listening to Mel Robbins for the
[01:18:35.240 -> 01:18:38.000] second time. So let's find out if she finished her second
[01:18:38.000 -> 01:18:41.200] listen, because she joins us now to have a quick chat. Laura,
[01:18:41.200 -> 01:18:42.680] nice to have you with us. How's it going?
[01:18:43.160 -> 01:18:44.720] Laura Marris-Smith It's very well. Thank you for having me
[01:18:44.720 -> 01:18:45.520] on the show a little
[01:18:45.520 -> 01:18:48.920] bit daunted. I've actually listened three times now to the
[01:18:48.920 -> 01:18:51.760] Mel Robbins podcast twice on the podcast, and then I had it on
[01:18:51.760 -> 01:18:55.680] the YouTube video yesterday, actually, while I was running.
[01:18:55.720 -> 01:18:58.520] So explain why that one resonated with you so much.
[01:18:58.840 -> 01:19:03.320] I was almost like overwhelmed with how many points that
[01:19:03.320 -> 01:19:06.000] resonated with me in the podcast.
[01:19:06.000 -> 01:19:10.000] I'll be the first to put my hand up, I'm the British cynic.
[01:19:10.000 -> 01:19:15.000] I'm in America and it is very all, you've got this and good job and all of that,
[01:19:15.000 -> 01:19:18.000] and I'm kind of not that sort of person.
[01:19:18.000 -> 01:19:23.000] But just something in it made me sort of, I guess, sit up,
[01:19:23.000 -> 01:19:25.640] and then had to listen to it again just to see,
[01:19:25.640 -> 01:19:27.120] see if I could pick out more of it.
[01:19:27.120 -> 01:19:29.360] And I think like the second time I listened to it,
[01:19:29.360 -> 01:19:31.520] I think I was in the middle, I actually got quite emotional,
[01:19:31.520 -> 01:19:36.120] which was funny then listening to Mel talk about the reactions
[01:19:36.120 -> 01:19:39.360] you get when you go in the mirror and you do that high five.
[01:19:39.360 -> 01:19:42.760] I have to say, I'm still failing to do the high five.
[01:19:42.760 -> 01:19:46.840] I still find it odd, awkward, weird.
[01:19:46.840 -> 01:19:48.440] I barely look in the mirror.
[01:19:48.440 -> 01:19:49.800] So I'm still at that early point
[01:19:49.800 -> 01:19:51.960] of not even having that acceptance.
[01:19:51.960 -> 01:19:56.060] But I think even just thinking about it
[01:19:56.060 -> 01:19:57.960] is probably making,
[01:19:57.960 -> 01:20:00.800] or thinking about the process of what she talks about,
[01:20:00.800 -> 01:20:02.840] making me more aware and conscious.
[01:20:02.840 -> 01:20:04.560] And I actually, I sent the podcast round,
[01:20:04.560 -> 01:20:09.080] or that episode round to most of my training group as well.
[01:20:09.080 -> 01:20:10.800] So did you resonate with that line
[01:20:10.800 -> 01:20:12.320] that really stuck in my mind, Laura,
[01:20:12.320 -> 01:20:15.080] was when she was speaking about the London marathon.
[01:20:15.080 -> 01:20:17.440] And can you imagine if people were on the touchline,
[01:20:17.440 -> 01:20:19.560] abusing you and saying the kind of things
[01:20:19.560 -> 01:20:23.080] that we say to ourselves, that it's unthinkable.
[01:20:23.080 -> 01:20:25.120] Like, how did that land with you?
[01:20:25.480 -> 01:20:29.000] Yeah. I mean, there's also that phrase of like, you, you wouldn't talk to your friends
[01:20:29.000 -> 01:20:31.400] like this, so why do you talk to yourself like that?
[01:20:31.400 -> 01:20:35.840] But as you said, with that race, particularly, cause I, so I do long
[01:20:35.840 -> 01:20:39.240] distance triathlon and so by the time you get to the marathon at the end, you're
[01:20:39.240 -> 01:20:42.360] sort of five, six, seven hours into the race.
[01:20:42.480 -> 01:20:46.640] And I love that element of absorbing energy from the crowd
[01:20:46.640 -> 01:20:52.480] to get you through it. Yeah, it's funny that we, we can be every other person's hype man,
[01:20:52.480 -> 01:20:58.080] but we are the first to break ourselves down and criticize ourselves and do the complete opposite.
[01:20:58.720 -> 01:21:03.280] But that podcast episode has started you on a journey of being your own hype man, right?
[01:21:04.000 -> 01:21:04.480] Trying.
[01:21:05.000 -> 01:21:07.000] Why do you think you find it so hard?
[01:21:07.000 -> 01:21:10.000] Have you thought about why maybe you find it so difficult?
[01:21:10.000 -> 01:21:12.000] Yeah, I'm just, I am one of those people,
[01:21:12.000 -> 01:21:16.000] I will be the first to criticise, to break myself down,
[01:21:16.000 -> 01:21:19.000] to say I'm not good enough kind of thing.
[01:21:19.000 -> 01:21:22.000] And I think that's probably, I think I'm on that,
[01:21:22.000 -> 01:21:26.000] that's I think why I've listened to it so many times is I recognise that Ac rwy'n credu fy mod i'n ymwneud â hynny. Dyna, rwy'n credu, y rhai rwyf wedi clywed yn ymlaen llawer o weithiau yw, rwy'n gwybod hynny,
[01:21:26.000 -> 01:21:28.000] ac mae'n ceisio
[01:21:28.000 -> 01:21:30.000] ymdrechu trwy
[01:21:30.000 -> 01:21:32.000] sut rwy'n cael
[01:21:32.000 -> 01:21:34.000] yn well
[01:21:34.000 -> 01:21:36.000] yn gwybod y person, rwy'n credu,
[01:21:36.000 -> 01:21:38.000] yn sicr.
[01:21:38.000 -> 01:21:40.000] I gynnal y gweithwyr yn y mewn, Laura, rwy'n credu
[01:21:40.000 -> 01:21:42.000] ei fod yn dweud i chi,
[01:21:42.000 -> 01:21:44.000] pan wnaethon chi fod yn triathlet,
[01:21:44.000 -> 01:21:45.520] dydych chi ddim yn gweith'r Ironman ar y cyfan,
[01:21:45.520 -> 01:21:51.280] ond wedi'i ddewis, a rwy'n credu y byddwch chi'n y broses o ddewis i'ch gwybod.
[01:21:51.280 -> 01:21:54.560] Rwy'n credu y byddwch chi'n y byd hwnnw.
[01:21:54.560 -> 01:21:58.400] Mae'n brifysgol. Laura Siddle, athleta profesiynol,
[01:21:58.400 -> 01:22:01.680] a chwe ddau o gyd, Ironman olygwr,
[01:22:01.680 -> 01:22:03.520] yn ystod y cymdeithas ar y stage gweithredol,
[01:22:03.520 -> 01:22:05.260] trafodd y byd, ond mae'n dal i'w gwrando i'r cyflawni'n fawr. Mae'n ddiddorol i gael y sgwrs, man champion, competing on the global stage, traveling the world, but still listening to high performance.
[01:22:05.260 -> 01:22:07.200] It's great to have a chat.
[01:22:07.200 -> 01:22:08.920] Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast
[01:22:08.920 -> 01:22:10.640] and sharing your thoughts.
[01:22:10.640 -> 01:22:11.600] It means a lot to us.
[01:22:11.600 -> 01:22:12.520] Thank you so much.
[01:22:12.520 -> 01:22:13.360] It's been great.
[01:22:14.560 -> 01:22:17.160] Thanks as always to Damien Hughes
[01:22:17.160 -> 01:22:20.320] for being an integral part of the High Performance Podcast.
[01:22:20.320 -> 01:22:21.920] Huge thanks to all of you, of course,
[01:22:21.920 -> 01:22:24.280] for continuing to listen, continuing to share it,
[01:22:24.280 -> 01:22:25.660] continuing to talk about it. What I'd really like to do of you, of course for continuing to listen continuing to share it continuing to talk about it
[01:22:25.680 -> 01:22:27.680] What I'd really like to do next week actually
[01:22:28.240 -> 01:22:30.880] Well, I'll tell you now. I'll just reveal it next week
[01:22:30.880 -> 01:22:36.800] We have one of the greatest rugby players to have ever played the game the all-blacks legend Dan Carter is going to be on
[01:22:36.800 -> 01:22:38.280] high performance and
[01:22:38.280 -> 01:22:43.660] After the episode I want to do it just a quick Q&A session really with myself and Damien just answering any questions
[01:22:43.660 -> 01:22:45.000] You've got about this series
[01:22:45.000 -> 01:22:47.920] or about a High Performance Live or anything at all really.
[01:22:47.920 -> 01:22:50.640] So please just ping us a message,
[01:22:50.640 -> 01:22:53.800] just hop onto my Instagram at jakehumphrey,
[01:22:53.800 -> 01:22:56.040] send me a question and we will talk about it
[01:22:56.040 -> 01:22:58.500] on High Performance next week.
[01:22:58.500 -> 01:23:00.400] So feel free to do that right now.
[01:23:00.400 -> 01:23:02.480] And a quick reminder that if you go to
[01:23:02.480 -> 01:23:06.300] thehighperformancepodcast. calm, that's our online home
[01:23:06.300 -> 01:23:10.400] You can get access to loads of stuff. So check it out the high performance podcast
[01:23:11.080 -> 01:23:15.700] Calm, but that's it for this week's episode Alistair Campbell. Thank you so much for being so honest
[01:23:15.700 -> 01:23:22.300] So brave and sharing so much with us. Thanks as well to Hannah to will and to Eve the high performance podcast team
[01:23:22.540 -> 01:23:25.720] Thank you to Finn Ryan at Rethink Audio for his hard work,
[01:23:26.040 -> 01:23:28.120] but most of all, huge thanks to you.
[01:23:28.160 -> 01:23:32.800] Our infinite purpose on this podcast is to help you live a more high performance
[01:23:32.800 -> 01:23:36.480] life. And I hope today's episode has got you one step closer.
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