E67 - Chris Voss: How to be a killer communicator

Chris Voss is former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Chris is current CEO of the Black Swan Group which specialises in solving business communication problems using hostage negotiation solutions. Chris helps companies secure and close better deals, save money, and solve internal communication problems between senior management and employees.

Chris is also author of the national best-seller Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It, which is out now. 

******

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Sure, here is a summary of the podcast episode:

**Title:** Never Settle for Half: Masterful Negotiation and Communication

**Summary:**

* Chris Voss, a former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI), shares his insights on negotiation and communication.
* Negotiation is a beautiful process that involves finding a win-win solution, rather than a zero-sum game.
* Active listening is key to understanding the other party's perspective and needs.
* Assumptions can blind us to the true situation and hinder effective negotiation.
* The way we say something is just as important as what we say.
* Negotiation is a skill that can be learned and improved with practice.
* Negotiation is not just about money; it is about finding a mutually beneficial outcome.
* Successful negotiators are often quiet and calm, rather than aggressive and intimidating.
* Negative emotions, such as fear and intimidation, are short-term negotiation strategies that can be destructive in the long run.

**Key Insights:**

* Negotiation is a collaborative process that involves finding a solution that benefits both parties.
* Assumptions can lead to misunderstandings and hinder effective negotiation.
* Active listening is essential for understanding the other party's perspective and needs.
* The way we communicate, both verbally and nonverbally, can have a significant impact on the outcome of a negotiation.
* Negotiation is a skill that can be learned and improved with practice.
* Successful negotiators are often those who are able to remain calm and composed, even in high-stakes situations.

**Actionable Tips:**

* Practice active listening by paying attention to both the words and the body language of the other party.
* Be aware of your own assumptions and biases, and challenge them when necessary.
* Use open-ended questions to encourage the other party to share their perspective.
* Be patient and willing to walk away from a negotiation if it is not in your best interests.
* Focus on building relationships and trust with the other party, as this will make it more likely that you will reach a mutually beneficial agreement.

I hope this is helpful! Please let me know if you have any other questions.

# The Art of Negotiation: Unlocking the Secrets of Effective Communication

## Introduction:

In a world driven by constant communication and negotiation, the ability to effectively convey messages, understand others' perspectives, and reach mutually beneficial agreements is paramount. In this podcast episode, former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Chris Voss, shares his insights and techniques for successful negotiation, drawing from his extensive experience in high-stakes situations.

## Key Points:

### 1. The Power of Negative Emotions:

- Humans are naturally inclined towards negative thinking as a survival mechanism.
- Negative emotions often drive our decision-making and negotiations.
- Acknowledging and addressing negative emotions can help disarm the other party and create a more collaborative environment.

### 2. Active Listening and Proactive Communication:

- Active listening involves focusing on the other party's words, body language, and emotional cues.
- Proactive communication involves asking open-ended questions to uncover the other party's concerns and underlying interests.
- By listening attentively and asking the right questions, negotiators can gain valuable insights and build rapport.

### 3. The Importance of Empathy and Building Relationships:

- Empathy allows negotiators to understand the other party's perspective and emotions.
- Building relationships fosters trust and cooperation, making it easier to reach agreements.
- Establishing a positive connection can turn a negotiation from a battle of wills into a collaborative problem-solving exercise.

### 4. The Art of Mirroring and Labeling:

- Mirroring involves repeating or paraphrasing the other party's words to demonstrate understanding.
- Labeling involves identifying and acknowledging the other party's emotions.
- These techniques can help defuse tense situations, validate the other party's feelings, and create a more receptive environment for negotiation.

### 5. Inoculating Against Negative Reactions:

- Anticipate potential objections or negative reactions from the other party.
- Address these concerns upfront by acknowledging them and offering a solution.
- This can help prevent misunderstandings and pave the way for a more productive negotiation.

### 6. The Power of "No" and the Right to Veto:

- Empowering the other party with the right to say "no" can create a sense of safety and autonomy.
- This can lead to more open and honest communication, as the other party feels less pressured to agree.
- Granting the right to veto can also help prevent misunderstandings and resentment.

### 7. The Value of Silence and Patience:

- Silence can be a powerful tool in negotiation, allowing the other party to reflect on their position and consider new perspectives.
- Patience is crucial in allowing the negotiation process to unfold naturally, without rushing to a conclusion.
- By embracing silence and patience, negotiators can create space for creative solutions and mutually beneficial outcomes.

## Conclusion:

Effective negotiation is an art that requires a combination of strategic thinking, emotional intelligence, and effective communication skills. By understanding the power of negative emotions, practicing active listening, building relationships, and employing techniques like mirroring and labeling, negotiators can create a collaborative environment that leads to successful outcomes. Remember, negotiation is not about winning or losing; it's about finding common ground and reaching agreements that benefit all parties involved.

# High Performance Podcast Summary

**Interview with Chris Voss, former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and current CEO of The Black Swan Group.**

* Voss helps companies secure and close better deals, save money, and solve internal communication problems.
* Voss is also the author of the national bestseller Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It.

**Key Points:**

* **Relationship-oriented people:**
* Want to have a great time.
* Make others happy.
* Need elements of assertiveness.
* **Data-oriented people:**
* Want to make sure their perception of how things go is correct.
* Come off as cold.
* Need to learn to smile more.
* **Assertive people:**
* Pound the other person with demands.
* Can be horrible to deal with.
* **The best negotiators have a mix of all three types.**
* **Non-negotiable behaviors that Voss and the people around him have to buy into:**
* Not being willing to learn is a sin.
* Being lazy is a sin.
* Being dishonest is a sin.
* **Advice to a teenage Chris:**
* Be nicer.
* **Voss's favorite book recommendation:**
* Stealing Fire by Steven Kotler and Jamie Wheal.
* **Voss's one golden rule for living a high-performance life:**
* Be optimistic.

**Additional Notes:**

* Voss believes that empathy saves time.
* Oprah Winfrey has a knack for getting people to say things they would never normally say on a live television show.
* Johnny Wilkinson's "live in the moment" mindset can be helpful for people who are feeling overwhelmed.
* The High Performance Podcast has helped many people improve their lives.
* The key to getting the most out of the podcast is to make it work for you.

**Call to Action:**

* Order Voss's book, Never Split the Difference.
* Vote for the High Performance Podcast in the British Podcast Awards Listeners' Choice.
* Sign up for The High Performance Circle newsletter.

# High Performance Podcast Episode Summary

**Introduction of Chris Voss:**

- Chris Voss, former lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI, is the founder and CEO of the Black Swan Group, a company specializing in solving business communication issues using hostage negotiation techniques.
- He is also the author of the bestselling book "Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It."

**Call for Listeners' Support:**

- The podcast is nearing completion of its first book, and listeners are encouraged to pre-order it.
- Listeners are also requested to vote for the podcast in the British Podcast Awards Listeners' Choice category.

**Gratitude to Partners and Newsletter Promotion:**

- The podcast expresses gratitude to its founding partners, Lotus Cars, and its exclusive sports partner, GIVEMESPORT.
- Listeners are encouraged to sign up for the High Performance Circle newsletter for access to exclusive content and insights.

**Interview with Chris Voss:**

- Chris Voss shares insights from his experience as a hostage negotiator and how those techniques can be applied to business communication.
- He emphasizes the importance of active listening, empathy, and understanding the other party's perspective in negotiation.
- Voss discusses the concept of "mirroring" to build rapport and establish trust during negotiations.
- He also highlights the significance of nonverbal communication and reading body language to gain insights into the other party's intentions.

**Key Takeaways:**

- Effective communication is crucial in both personal and professional life.
- Active listening, empathy, and understanding the other party's perspective are essential elements of successful negotiation.
- Building rapport and trust through techniques like mirroring can enhance communication outcomes.
- Nonverbal communication plays a significant role in conveying messages and understanding intentions.

**Conclusion:**

- The podcast emphasizes the importance of effective communication in various aspects of life, from business negotiations to personal relationships.
- Listeners are encouraged to apply the insights shared by Chris Voss to improve their communication skills and achieve better outcomes in their interactions.

[00:00.000 -> 00:06.240] Hi there, welcome along to this week's High Performance Podcast where we speak to world-class
[00:06.240 -> 00:13.520] individuals, artists, entrepreneurs, actors, creatives, and today, how do I describe this?
[00:13.520 -> 00:16.240] Today, I'd say this man is a communicator.
[00:16.240 -> 00:19.720] This man is a world-class communicator.
[00:19.720 -> 00:26.360] You are about to learn lessons for communicating that you will be using for the rest of your life.
[00:26.360 -> 00:32.900] Here's what you can expect from today's unbelievable high performance podcast.
[00:32.900 -> 00:39.300] And so I just say, look, I want you to know that I know you're scared and I know you're
[00:39.300 -> 00:43.420] worried about coming out and I know you're worried about getting hurt when you're coming
[00:43.420 -> 00:49.080] out. Here's what it's going to look like when you come out so that you don't get hurt.
[00:49.080 -> 00:52.080] That's such a great episode, can't wait for you to hear it.
[00:52.080 -> 00:55.880] But before we give you this episode, I'm afraid I'm going to ask you for something.
[00:55.880 -> 00:57.720] I need your help.
[00:57.720 -> 01:00.120] So it's the British Podcast Awards coming very soon.
[01:00.120 -> 01:03.440] I am delighted that we're up for Best Sports Podcast.
[01:03.440 -> 01:05.880] However, we are also nominated in the Listener's Choice Award and this is the one that we're up for Best Sports Podcast. However, we are also nominated in
[01:05.880 -> 01:10.320] the Listener's Choice Award, and this is the one that we would love to win because it's
[01:10.320 -> 01:16.360] voted for by you. It's a public vote from fans of this podcast, and I suppose it just
[01:16.360 -> 01:20.520] means even more because it will be people whose lives have been touched by all the work
[01:20.520 -> 01:29.200] that we've done. So, if you love the High Performance Podcast, if it's changed your outlook, if it's helped you in any way, please, please, please, can you just spend
[01:29.200 -> 01:37.280] two minutes going to britishpodcastawards.com. That's britishpodcastawards.com forward slash
[01:37.280 -> 01:42.160] vote. You can find the link in the description for this podcast. Click on there, click High
[01:42.160 -> 01:49.080] Performance, give us your vote and we would love to win it. Thank you so much in advance. Let me also remind you if you
[01:49.080 -> 01:52.560] haven't yet signed up, we have our own private members club. It's called the
[01:52.560 -> 01:57.060] High Performance Circle. It's completely free to enter and the content on there
[01:57.060 -> 02:00.440] is unbelievable and we've just dropped a load of fresh content for this month. We
[02:00.440 -> 02:03.960] hear from a man called Hamish de Breton-Gordon about having the right
[02:03.960 -> 02:05.520] mindset in conflict zones. We hear from Ben Saund Hamish de Breton-Gordon about having the right mindset in conflict zones.
[02:06.160 -> 02:11.120] We hear from Ben Saunders who's a polar explorer who talks about the fact that self-belief is like
[02:11.120 -> 02:15.920] a muscle. We have a podcast episode, I always hate saying this because I feel bad on the other
[02:15.920 -> 02:20.720] podcasts, but I think it may be one of the greatest podcasts we've ever recorded, with a man called
[02:20.720 -> 02:25.560] Rick Lewis. Please, please, please, just listen to that.
[02:25.560 -> 02:28.080] You have to go to the High Performance Circle and sign up,
[02:28.080 -> 02:30.220] but then you'll get that podcast and it's unbelievable.
[02:30.220 -> 02:32.440] We also have a stunning keynote as well
[02:32.440 -> 02:33.880] from former Rohit Kath Bishop,
[02:33.880 -> 02:35.920] who asks us to just question the way
[02:35.920 -> 02:37.040] that we look at winning.
[02:37.040 -> 02:38.760] So all you need to do if you want to sign up
[02:38.760 -> 02:40.960] for the High Performance Circle for free
[02:40.960 -> 02:45.000] is just go to thehighperformancepodcast.com,
[02:45.120 -> 02:47.000] click join, you'll get an invite,
[02:47.000 -> 02:47.960] and then you're in the circle,
[02:47.960 -> 02:49.080] and you get all the content,
[02:49.080 -> 02:51.680] and you get it absolutely free.
[02:51.680 -> 02:53.880] As well as that, you can also pre-order our book,
[02:53.880 -> 02:55.680] which is out in December.
[02:55.680 -> 02:57.240] It can be pre-ordered right now, though.
[02:57.240 -> 02:58.960] Just again, go to the description
[02:58.960 -> 03:00.240] in the link for this podcast,
[03:00.240 -> 03:01.080] and you can find it there,
[03:01.080 -> 03:02.840] or you can order it from our website.
[03:02.840 -> 03:04.000] Right, enough from me.
[03:04.000 -> 03:07.200] This week's High Performance podcast comes straight after this.
[03:24.020 -> 03:29.860] scale. No long-term commitments or contracts. That's stamps.com code program. On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are doing
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[05:01.480 -> 05:25.280] Mint Mobile for details. but I just can't wait to see those two iconic Norfolk brands alongside each other.
[05:25.280 -> 05:29.000] So there you go, you'll be seeing Lotus on the shirts of Norwich City this season.
[05:29.000 -> 05:32.640] Let's hope for some high performance performances from the Canaries.
[05:32.640 -> 05:36.160] And as our founding partner, we can't thank Lotus cars enough.
[05:36.160 -> 05:39.480] And if you'd like to get more information about them and their amazing cars,
[05:39.480 -> 05:43.040] just go to Lotus cars across social media.
[05:50.640 -> 05:56.160] Lotus cars across social media. Today's guest knows full well that words, how and when we use them, can quite literally save lives. After all, he was the lead
[05:56.160 -> 06:00.960] international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI. For over 20 years he learned how
[06:00.960 -> 06:09.360] negotiation transformed his life, how active listening is key how assumption can blind us and why how we say something?
[06:09.720 -> 06:15.500] Matters just as much as what we say, but how can his lessons in negotiation and communication?
[06:16.740 -> 06:19.300] Enhance your life. It's time to find out
[06:19.300 -> 06:25.240] Please welcome to the high-performance podcast the author of the new book, Never Split the Difference,
[06:25.240 -> 06:27.040] Chris Voss. Chris, welcome.
[06:27.040 -> 06:31.000] Hey, thank you very much. Thanks for having me on. I'm happy to be here.
[06:31.000 -> 06:36.480] Good man. Right. This is how we always start this podcast. What is high performance?
[06:36.480 -> 06:43.880] Wow. You know, I mean, it's almost all the time. It's any time that, you know, we're
[06:43.880 -> 06:56.960] concerned, which is, you know, sort of our default mode you know we think high pressure negotiations happen only rarely you know but does the saying your biggest problem is your biggest problem so people have a tendency in their lives.
[06:57.440 -> 07:08.120] To get concerned agitated been out of shape over even the smallest thing so you know high performance performances performing under pressure and actually enjoying it and how do you reprogram
[07:08.120 -> 07:12.600] your brain to do that. So did you find that you had to reprogram your brain to
[07:12.600 -> 07:18.200] enjoy negotiating with bank robbers and international terrorists? Yeah you know
[07:18.200 -> 07:21.880] because I didn't realize that I'd kind of been trained wrong you know there's
[07:21.880 -> 07:30.000] very little there's very few good examples of actually really good negotiation and really good negotiation, you know, it's never marketed as great
[07:30.000 -> 07:36.560] negotiation. Like I think Oprah Winfrey's might be the best negotiator on earth. Explain. Nobody
[07:36.560 -> 07:46.620] thinks of her as a negotiator, you know, nobody does. So I've, since I started talking about Oprah, I've run across a couple of people sort of behind the scenes in her world
[07:47.560 -> 07:49.360] so
[07:49.360 -> 07:56.680] Oprah has taken some highly volatile people to the woodshed over their misbehavior and nobody knows about it because
[07:57.240 -> 08:00.360] Of the way she handles it. She's got a tremendous demeanor
[08:01.200 -> 08:05.220] She's soft-spoken. She's low-key, you know what we refer to as a late-night
[08:05.220 -> 08:11.080] FM DJ voice. I mean that's Oprah's default voice. And so I've had some very
[08:11.080 -> 08:16.680] explicit conversations where basically she said it's my way or the highway to
[08:16.680 -> 08:20.360] high-profile celebrities that are not used to being spoken to like this to
[08:20.360 -> 08:23.960] start with. How about a visible conversation? Her interview with Lance
[08:23.960 -> 08:25.600] Armstrong, by the way, I, I,
[08:25.680 -> 08:28.680] I met Lance Armstrong on an airplane. I consider him a friend.
[08:28.680 -> 08:32.600] I liked the guy a lot. She said, look, I'm going to put you on camera.
[08:32.880 -> 08:34.840] I'm going to ask you a series of questions,
[08:35.280 -> 08:40.240] bluntly asking you if you cheated and you're gonna answer yes or no.
[08:40.480 -> 08:44.040] He knew that going in and he still went on camera.
[08:44.840 -> 08:47.220] That's a negotiation. If you
[08:47.220 -> 08:51.940] think about where she started and where she is, by anybody's standards forget
[08:51.940 -> 08:56.360] about where she started as a black female from I think Chicago. No
[08:56.360 -> 09:02.740] advantages, no privilege. She wasn't born with any privileges. Take that away and
[09:02.740 -> 09:09.920] think about her net worth compared to the other billionaires on earth. She didn't start as a child of a real estate developer in New York who was
[09:09.920 -> 09:16.800] given a million dollars as spending money to get started. Look where she started. And a lot of
[09:16.800 -> 09:20.960] people say, yeah, well, of course you're not going to argue with Oprah because it's Oprah. No,
[09:22.560 -> 09:26.400] these high profile celebrities, they don't care who they're arguing with
[09:26.400 -> 09:30.160] if they get bent out of shape, they're happy to go on Twitter and Instagram and
[09:30.160 -> 09:34.080] all sorts of social media and throw a shade at one another and you don't see
[09:34.080 -> 09:39.320] it happening with her. To me that's great collaboration focused on long-term
[09:39.320 -> 09:44.440] relationships and it's a definition of building prosperity for you and
[09:44.440 -> 09:45.200] everybody involved
[09:45.200 -> 09:49.400] with. So one of our big questions that we have is that negotiation often gets a
[09:49.400 -> 09:54.680] bad press, it's often got a negative connotation and yet you describe it as a
[09:54.680 -> 09:59.280] beautiful process. Would you explain your perspective to come to that conclusion?
[09:59.280 -> 10:07.200] Well you know whatever happens it causes you to make the shift. Like you wonder if maybe is there a better way to do this?
[10:07.960 -> 10:11.080] You know, do I have to win all the time?
[10:11.360 -> 10:12.640] You know, is it a zero sum game?
[10:12.640 -> 10:13.840] Do I have to beat the other side?
[10:14.880 -> 10:18.960] And it starts to sneak up on you in little ways because I'm a natural born assertive.
[10:18.960 -> 10:20.360] I'm very assertive.
[10:20.600 -> 10:24.000] Direct and honest is how I would describe me.
[10:26.240 -> 10:30.120] And other people would describe me when I'm in my natural assertive mode that dealing with me is
[10:30.120 -> 10:34.840] like getting hit in the face with a brick. And the real problem with that
[10:34.840 -> 10:39.240] style of negotiator because it's what everybody expects from on the other side
[10:39.240 -> 10:44.160] of the table. When we prep people you know the Black Swan group we've been
[10:44.160 -> 10:46.240] training people for what is that 13 years we've been training people for, what is that,
[10:46.240 -> 10:47.760] 13 years.
[10:47.760 -> 10:51.800] We always ask people, who are you prepared for in a negotiation?
[10:51.800 -> 10:56.700] Everybody's preparing for the attacking negotiator, even though that's not everybody.
[10:56.700 -> 11:01.360] But everybody's expecting that because that's the demeanor, and it locks people's brains
[11:01.360 -> 11:02.360] up.
[11:02.360 -> 11:06.880] The attacking negotiator hits a couple of home runs early and then people
[11:06.880 -> 11:14.720] get tired of being attacked and so then they run into fewer and fewer deals and then suddenly
[11:15.600 -> 11:20.240] nobody will talk to them and they don't understand because they have this memory of all these great
[11:20.240 -> 11:25.600] victories where I had them over a barrel and there was nothing they could do and
[11:25.600 -> 11:29.120] they don't realize that the last time they talked about a victory like that
[11:29.120 -> 11:35.200] was seven eight years ago and they're living in that memory and so those
[11:35.200 -> 11:38.320] memories are so satisfying you don't realize how many deals you drive from
[11:38.320 -> 11:44.120] the table. It's interesting so people listening to this Chris and we have lots
[11:44.120 -> 11:46.660] of business leaders and they will understand negotiation
[11:46.660 -> 11:50.720] But we also have a huge number of teachers to listen to this parents that listen to this
[11:52.020 -> 11:53.940] Do we all?
[11:53.940 -> 11:59.460] Negotiate every single day of our lives. Is this a lesson for everyone that you're talking about here?
[12:00.120 -> 12:06.500] Anytime the words I want or I need are coming across your lips you're in a negotiation
[12:07.040 -> 12:12.840] How many times a day I want a cup of coffee. I need you to go to bed early
[12:12.840 -> 12:20.320] I want you to do your homework. I want to go to this restaurant. How many times a day do those words cross your lips?
[12:21.000 -> 12:25.600] That's how often you're in a negotiation people People think it's a negotiation only if money's
[12:25.600 -> 12:31.840] involved. The commodity that's always involved in a negotiation is time. How are you going to get
[12:31.840 -> 12:37.040] the money? How are you going to pay somebody? Even the transfer of money requires time, requires
[12:37.040 -> 12:42.240] implementation. When I was doing kidnapping negotiations, we'd bargain like crazy over the
[12:42.240 -> 12:45.320] ransom amount just to wear him down.
[12:45.320 -> 12:51.000] I knew that the real issue was I could agree to a million dollars right now, try and get
[12:51.000 -> 12:53.080] it out of me.
[12:53.080 -> 12:54.840] The devil is in the details.
[12:54.840 -> 12:58.560] I'm like, well, do you want a $5 bills?
[12:58.560 -> 13:01.400] You want a $100 bills?
[13:01.400 -> 13:03.840] You want it in a suitcase?
[13:03.840 -> 13:06.180] You want it in a backpack? you want it in a backpack.
[13:06.180 -> 13:08.680] How are we going to deliver it to you?
[13:08.680 -> 13:12.760] How do we make sure that you're sure that ... I mean, like the details, the devil's
[13:12.760 -> 13:14.000] in the details.
[13:14.000 -> 13:16.880] The money amount to me was just entertainment.
[13:16.880 -> 13:19.240] I'm going to kill you over the details.
[13:19.240 -> 13:20.240] That's time.
[13:20.240 -> 13:23.920] And that's where business negotiations break down because they think they have deals when
[13:23.920 -> 13:25.080] they've agreed on a price.
[13:25.440 -> 13:35.160] You know, a famous activist investor in the United States, Carl Icahn, Carl Icahn realized that as soon as price was settled, the other side was going to drop their guard.
[13:35.400 -> 13:41.680] And when he felt like it, that's where he wiped people out over the details, the devil's in the details.
[13:47.620 -> 13:47.760] The devil's in the details. I'm fascinated in how you learn these skills that you now teach to others and that you've used in such
[13:53.000 -> 13:53.680] High stakes negotiations yourself. Would you but would you explain a little bit about the start of your journey?
[13:57.120 -> 13:58.040] yeah, you know and it's a great book out there called the talent code and
[14:01.160 -> 14:02.520] Daniel Coyle I think and he contends that everything is learned
[14:05.280 -> 14:06.720] And there's all kinds of other books out there similar. Talent is overrated.
[14:06.720 -> 14:09.100] Most people that achieve,
[14:09.100 -> 14:11.360] they learn to work hard and to learn.
[14:11.360 -> 14:13.320] I grew up in an environment where my father
[14:13.320 -> 14:14.880] expected me to figure stuff out.
[14:14.880 -> 14:17.920] He was a blue collar guy from the Midwestern United States.
[14:17.920 -> 14:20.600] He had to figure stuff out himself to be successful,
[14:20.600 -> 14:22.160] ran his own business,
[14:22.160 -> 14:24.440] and figured his kids needed to figure stuff out
[14:24.440 -> 14:25.960] themselves too. My son still gets to figure stuff out themselves too.
[14:25.960 -> 14:27.600] My son still gets the biggest kick out of this.
[14:27.600 -> 14:32.320] My father decided he wanted a new garage, the old garage in the backyard.
[14:32.320 -> 14:35.280] I was 11, my older sister was 13.
[14:35.280 -> 14:38.800] He handed each of us crowbars and said, go tear down the garage.
[14:38.800 -> 14:42.800] He had to pay for our room and board.
[14:42.800 -> 14:44.360] He wanted to get a return on his investment.
[14:44.360 -> 14:45.400] He put us to work.
[14:45.400 -> 14:48.600] We were like, we had to go out and figure out how to tear this garage down.
[14:48.600 -> 14:50.520] That was my life growing up.
[14:50.520 -> 14:55.600] If there's a task, figure it out, which is a high emphasis on learning.
[14:55.600 -> 14:58.480] I was not a natural born negotiator in any way.
[14:58.480 -> 14:59.880] Nobody's a natural born in anything.
[14:59.880 -> 15:01.400] I was a member on a SWAT team.
[15:01.400 -> 15:03.080] I was FBI SWAT.
[15:03.080 -> 15:04.520] I wanted to be in SWAT.
[15:04.520 -> 15:07.520] I decided to make the switch to hostage negotiations because I had a member on a SWAT team. I was FBI SWAT. I wanted to be in SWAT. And I decided to make the switch to hostage negotiations
[15:07.520 -> 15:09.040] because I had a recurring knee injury.
[15:09.040 -> 15:13.520] And I've had my knee rebuilt a couple of times.
[15:13.520 -> 15:15.120] And we had hostage negotiators.
[15:15.120 -> 15:16.320] I like crisis response.
[15:16.320 -> 15:17.520] So I thought, I could do that.
[15:17.520 -> 15:18.360] How hard could that be?
[15:18.360 -> 15:19.600] I talk to people all the time.
[15:19.600 -> 15:21.840] I could talk to a terrorist.
[15:21.840 -> 15:24.080] I like to joke that the unofficial motto
[15:24.080 -> 15:28.580] of the Voss family is how hard can it be? Which is, you
[15:28.580 -> 15:32.420] know, it's like the in the US we have a saying, a rednecks
[15:32.420 -> 15:34.700] famous last words are hey, watch this.
[15:36.460 -> 15:39.220] Right, look, Chris, you said at the beginning, the devil is in
[15:39.220 -> 15:42.060] the detail. And I really want people listening to this
[15:42.060 -> 16:05.040] podcast to get detail from us about how they from the minute they turn off this podcast and going by your book never split the difference how from that moment they can be better negotiators what is the best way to do that should we really hard to do because everybody wants to have their say
[16:09.760 -> 16:10.400] One of the sayings about negotiation is negotiation is the art of letting the other side have your way
[16:12.400 -> 16:12.880] How do you do that? You gotta let them talk
[16:13.840 -> 16:18.000] so Let's say you have a promotional event of mine. You want to do a promotional event with me?
[16:18.960 -> 16:21.200] Yeah, you you got you got a whole game plan
[16:22.160 -> 16:23.280] laid out
[16:23.280 -> 16:25.560] and um your typical negotiator.
[16:26.400 -> 16:27.520] You're worried about your budget.
[16:27.960 -> 16:29.280] You're worried about the details.
[16:29.520 -> 16:30.520] You want to be in control.
[16:31.240 -> 16:32.120] How would you start that?
[16:32.160 -> 16:33.360] How would you normally start that?
[16:34.360 -> 16:36.320] If you want to contact me about it and make the deal.
[16:36.600 -> 16:40.000] I would call you and I'd say, Hey, Chris, my name's Jake.
[16:40.040 -> 16:41.160] I'm based in the UK.
[16:41.160 -> 16:43.360] I hear you've got a new book out, Never Split the Difference.
[16:43.360 -> 16:45.040] I run a events agency in the UK and I hear you've got a new book out, never split the difference. I run a
[16:45.040 -> 16:49.120] events agency in the UK and I would love the opportunity to share your story with people
[16:49.920 -> 16:54.080] across the pond. How do you fancy that? Sounds like you had something specific in mind.
[16:55.600 -> 17:01.280] Yeah, yeah, I absolutely do. Yeah, I want to do a book tour around the UK and I reckon we can sell
[17:01.280 -> 17:05.860] out theatres and I've got some great contacts in the TV industry. So I reckon I can get you on to
[17:06.580 -> 17:13.660] BBC breakfast and Good Morning Britain. They're the two big early morning programs over here. What do you think? All right, so I'm gonna stop right there
[17:13.660 -> 17:17.140] I'm gonna talk about what just happened before you contacted me
[17:18.540 -> 17:24.560] Whether you actually wrote it down or you're aware of it. You have an entire vision in your head
[17:27.120 -> 17:28.120] wrote it down or you're aware of it, you have an entire vision in your head. Vision drives decision.
[17:28.120 -> 17:33.400] There are a lot of times in negotiations where people are actually just contacting someone
[17:33.400 -> 17:37.520] to get a competing bid or they're looking to do due diligence.
[17:37.520 -> 17:41.840] Like let's say you want to do this whole book tour thing, but you want to do it with an
[17:41.840 -> 17:49.800] equivalent author, there's somebody else with a business book out there, and you're dry running with me to see what I might be
[17:49.800 -> 17:56.300] looking for, which means the vision in your head does not include me. So my
[17:56.300 -> 18:01.120] first saying, sounds like you've got something in mind, I didn't say what do
[18:01.120 -> 18:07.660] you have in mind, because there's Because any question puts people on guard to some degree.
[18:08.740 -> 18:12.620] Now, what do you have in mind is a good,
[18:12.620 -> 18:15.000] what we would refer to as a calibrated question.
[18:15.000 -> 18:16.500] A lot of other people would call
[18:16.500 -> 18:20.820] either an open-ended question or a reporter's question.
[18:20.820 -> 18:22.020] Who, what, when, where, why, and how.
[18:22.020 -> 18:24.220] Reporter's interrogative.
[18:24.220 -> 18:28.120] I ask that question if I want you to stop and think.
[18:28.120 -> 18:30.560] It triggers what Danny Kahneman would refer to
[18:30.560 -> 18:33.480] as in-depth slow thinking.
[18:33.480 -> 18:36.160] If in that moment I want you to stop and think
[18:36.160 -> 18:39.280] and take a step back, I'll ask you what question.
[18:39.280 -> 18:42.580] If instead I want to trigger a straight stream
[18:42.580 -> 18:45.840] of consciousness, sounds like you had something in mind,
[18:45.840 -> 18:48.880] hits your brain in a completely different way.
[18:48.880 -> 18:53.040] And it's much more likely to open up a direct downstream,
[18:53.040 -> 18:57.920] unvarnished stream of consciousness of your thoughts.
[18:57.920 -> 19:01.440] Now there's no guarantee of success of any approach.
[19:01.440 -> 19:04.880] I just want to use the stuff that's most likely
[19:04.880 -> 19:06.460] to get the thinking out of you
[19:06.460 -> 19:09.120] without exhausting you.
[19:09.120 -> 19:10.820] I want you to give me a downstream
[19:10.820 -> 19:11.980] that you're comfortable with,
[19:11.980 -> 19:16.980] which simultaneously makes me feel to you
[19:17.360 -> 19:19.500] like I'm easy to work with.
[19:20.380 -> 19:21.800] Yeah, yeah, well, you were kind of praising me
[19:21.800 -> 19:23.160] when you said to me,
[19:23.160 -> 19:29.860] seems like you've got something, I almost felt I had to tell you something because I almost felt like you'd or you were already impressed
[19:29.960 -> 19:31.960] Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah
[19:32.220 -> 19:39.700] Yeah, there's all this additional emotional intelligence relationship building benefits that kind of come with this approach
[19:40.440 -> 19:45.160] Entirely so can I flip it slightly because I'm intrigued by this approach I
[19:45.160 -> 19:49.580] want to go back to the angle Jake was talking about but in relation to your
[19:49.580 -> 19:55.460] days as a FBI negotiator what would you do if somebody refused to play ball with
[19:55.460 -> 20:00.120] you so if somebody just refused to engage? Well you know that's part of the
[20:00.120 -> 20:06.000] assessment of the process now we probably start what we consider to be
[20:06.000 -> 20:13.840] one-way dialogue because you refusing to answer back doesn't mean you're not
[20:13.840 -> 20:19.240] listening. So if you're refusing to answer me back what does that mean? What
[20:19.240 -> 20:26.960] that means is you're scared, your guard is up, you don't know if you could trust me, the future looks extremely
[20:26.960 -> 20:33.280] uncertain to you, you're frozen. So that informs me as to now I'm going to start taking educated
[20:33.280 -> 20:40.640] guesses. Each one of these things sounds like is a label, looks like, feels like, those are educated
[20:40.640 -> 20:45.620] guesses. We have a scientific term for them. We call them swags.
[20:45.620 -> 20:47.460] That's a scientific wild ass guess.
[20:47.460 -> 20:51.380] I'm going to take a scientific wild ass guess on what you're feeling.
[20:51.380 -> 20:52.780] So I'm negotiating.
[20:52.780 -> 21:00.580] We got a 27th floor of a high rise in Harlem, in New York, in the 90s.
[21:00.580 -> 21:02.480] We have brought the circus to town.
[21:02.480 -> 21:03.700] We got the SWAT team.
[21:03.700 -> 21:05.840] We got on a 27 floors in this high rise. I mean, the circus has circus to town. We got the SWAT team, we got on 27 floors in this high rise.
[21:05.840 -> 21:08.080] I mean, the circus has come to town.
[21:08.080 -> 21:10.880] We've made so much noise getting up there.
[21:10.880 -> 21:14.360] We figure there's no way that these guys are not long gone
[21:14.360 -> 21:16.440] because we brought the circus.
[21:16.440 -> 21:18.820] We got elephants, we got trapeze artists.
[21:18.820 -> 21:21.400] I mean, we make that much noise bringing an entire SWAT team
[21:21.400 -> 21:23.280] and everybody to bear on this apartment.
[21:23.280 -> 21:29.040] So I think we're talking to an empty apartment. I get two baby negotiators with me, they're still in training. I'm like, cool,
[21:29.040 -> 21:32.400] this is right of passage. Everybody talks to an empty apartment at some point in time.
[21:33.040 -> 21:38.640] In point of fact, the fugitives are inside and they're heavily armed. And so I just say, look,
[21:38.640 -> 21:44.880] I want you to know that I know you're scared and I know you're worried about coming out.
[21:45.760 -> 21:47.400] And I know you're worried about getting hurt when you're worried about coming out, and I know you're worried about getting hurt
[21:47.400 -> 21:48.760] when you're coming out.
[21:48.760 -> 21:51.920] Here's what it's gonna look like when you come out
[21:51.920 -> 21:54.080] so that you don't get hurt.
[21:54.080 -> 21:55.860] Because I said vision drives decision, right?
[21:55.860 -> 21:57.520] I gotta start putting a vision in their head
[21:57.520 -> 21:59.120] of them coming out safely.
[21:59.120 -> 22:01.560] So we're talking to this empty apartment.
[22:01.560 -> 22:04.360] I'm thoroughly convinced it's empty for six hours.
[22:04.360 -> 22:07.280] Six hours of this, over and over and over.
[22:08.440 -> 22:12.120] And six hours in a sniper on an adjacent building says, I just
[22:12.120 -> 22:18.320] saw a curtain move inside. And we all go like, holy cow, they
[22:18.320 -> 22:22.800] really are in there. And so then I go, look, we just saw the
[22:22.800 -> 22:25.640] curtains move on the inside. One of you just looked out the window.
[22:26.320 -> 22:32.400] I've been telling you for six hours, we're not going away and that you're going to come out safe.
[22:33.400 -> 22:42.720] And about five minutes later, without saying a word, the door opens and a pair of hands comes out exactly as I've described.
[22:46.000 -> 22:46.560] comes out exactly as I've described. I said you have to come out with your hands first
[22:53.600 -> 22:54.560] so that we can see that they're empty so we don't hurt you and you've got to move really slow
[23:00.000 -> 23:05.040] because we've got to keep you safe. We brought all three out all three of them out one at a time exactly like that. They never said a word. when we got outside the first one to
[23:05.040 -> 23:09.000] come out was a female and I went to talk to her I'm like I've been talking for
[23:09.000 -> 23:13.200] six hours why don't you say something and she says well we were hoping you
[23:13.200 -> 23:17.560] would go away and I said well if you were hoping we were go we would go away
[23:17.560 -> 23:21.520] why'd you come out she said well you said you'd never go away so we finally
[23:21.520 -> 23:29.920] believed you and decided to come out. What? Unbelievable. You know what I think? So I mean, for a start, I just, I don't know why,
[23:29.920 -> 23:35.440] but I'm kind of intrigued by the fact that I'm hearing exactly what bad people in the States
[23:35.440 -> 23:39.600] have heard at the sort of peak of their, of their careers, if you know what I mean, like,
[23:39.600 -> 23:43.760] you're the voice that these huge fugitives in the United States have been listening to. And we're
[23:43.760 -> 23:49.720] now on the other end of it. But what, what gets me is, so I used to work in Formula One as
[23:49.720 -> 23:55.440] a broadcaster and in motor racing, they call Formula One the Piranha Club, because everyone
[23:55.440 -> 23:59.580] is out to get everyone else and eat each other up. But as you walk up and down the pit lane
[23:59.580 -> 24:03.880] or the paddock, everyone's saying, oh, he robbed me and she robbed me and I stole from
[24:03.880 -> 24:06.240] him. And that's kind of the way that world likes to operate.
[24:06.760 -> 24:11.920] But what you've just explained is you could have a successful negotiation by not
[24:11.920 -> 24:16.720] disarming someone, not being aggressive towards someone, by putting them totally at
[24:16.720 -> 24:21.880] ease. And I've always kind of had the thought that to be a good negotiator, you
[24:21.880 -> 24:28.000] need to get them on the back foot, knock them on their knees and slap them on the back of the head and leave them feeling like they've got nowhere to go but you've
[24:28.000 -> 24:34.320] just described the total opposite it's successful. Yeah yeah because long term it's much more
[24:34.320 -> 24:42.960] profitable I mean there are quiet negotiators get farther accumulate more money are happier
[24:47.280 -> 24:48.960] accumulate more money, are happier. There's the occasional poster child,
[24:52.720 -> 24:54.400] and the current poster child for negotiations in the United States is Donald Trump.
[25:08.360 -> 25:14.000] I was in New York in his apartment at Trump Tower.
[25:14.000 -> 25:18.440] It was a very gracious and wonderful thing for him to do. We mutual
[25:18.440 -> 25:27.120] acquaintance set it up. He started out in New York, he redid Grand Central Station, spectacular
[25:27.120 -> 25:28.620] success.
[25:28.620 -> 25:33.760] He did the woman skating rink that the city hadn't been able to fix for years.
[25:33.760 -> 25:41.040] He finally got sick of walking by it, seeing how ugly it was on his own, paid to fix it.
[25:41.040 -> 25:44.040] He just got disgusted at the city's ineptitude.
[25:44.040 -> 25:47.620] Went and built the original original trump tower phenomenal phenomenal
[25:48.480 -> 25:50.480] then built another building
[25:50.640 -> 25:52.640] but then
[25:52.880 -> 25:59.600] Kind of stopped putting up buildings in new york and then he went to atlantic city and had a spectacular success there, but then
[26:01.120 -> 26:05.000] You know sort of ran out of gas in Atlantic City.
[26:05.000 -> 26:10.320] An aggressive negotiator wears out their counterparts.
[26:10.320 -> 26:17.080] Now the monuments to their success remain, but the monuments are built farther and farther
[26:17.080 -> 26:19.640] apart in time.
[26:19.640 -> 26:25.840] Since the monuments to their success remain, people forget how long ago they were built and
[26:26.600 -> 26:29.440] the victories are fewer and fewer in between and
[26:30.000 -> 26:34.520] People just get tired of getting beat up and they just they just stop coming to the table
[26:34.520 -> 26:37.920] They don't want if coming to the table means arguing they don't come to the table
[26:37.920 -> 26:42.480] so would you argue then Chris that negative emotions such as
[26:43.120 -> 26:45.880] Negotiating through fear or intimidation
[26:45.880 -> 26:48.800] or telling people about your power or status
[26:48.800 -> 26:52.520] and things like that, are short-term fixes,
[26:52.520 -> 26:56.200] but actually over a long-term, they're destructive.
[26:56.200 -> 26:57.320] 1,000%.
[26:57.320 -> 27:00.880] And one of the things that's almost misleading about that
[27:00.880 -> 27:03.960] is academic studies on negotiations.
[27:03.960 -> 27:09.120] What you're talking about is referred to in academic terms as strategic umbrage. You know do I get
[27:09.120 -> 27:14.200] mad to get the deal? And there's an academic study, there's probably several
[27:14.200 -> 27:18.400] out there that say that strategic umbrage works. Anytime you find out about
[27:18.400 -> 27:21.800] any study take a look about how they gathered it and whether or not you like
[27:21.800 -> 27:27.240] how they did the data. You know you don't got to be a college graduate to look at it and say, this doesn't look right
[27:27.240 -> 27:28.240] to me.
[27:28.240 -> 27:34.040] So the academic studies on strategic umbrage were simulations that were run with students.
[27:34.040 -> 27:36.240] I ran simulations with students myself.
[27:36.240 -> 27:38.920] What happens when you run a simulation with a student?
[27:38.920 -> 27:42.360] They sit down and they think two things.
[27:42.360 -> 27:46.480] I got to get this done in 45 minutes because I want to go drink it with my buddies tonight
[27:46.480 -> 27:50.920] or I want to go get coffee or I got to study something else, but they tend to allocate
[27:50.920 -> 27:52.720] 45 minutes.
[27:52.720 -> 27:58.160] They also feel the only way they fail is if they don't get a deal.
[27:58.160 -> 28:05.960] And since it's a simulation, this is a one and done and it's not an ongoing relationship. So they're within
[28:05.960 -> 28:11.160] 10 minutes, you know, they've been there 40 minutes, they've been there 45 and
[28:11.160 -> 28:15.200] finally one of them decides to get angry with the other one and the other one's
[28:15.200 -> 28:20.600] like, all right, to hell with it and they cut the deal and that data will show
[28:20.600 -> 28:24.600] that the anger got the deal but they're never gonna deal with each other again
[28:24.600 -> 28:29.520] and it was a fake simulation and they don't have to pay for that anger. And there isn't anybody in
[28:29.520 -> 28:35.440] our life we don't have repeat relationships with. You go out and buy a car and you slaughter
[28:36.000 -> 28:40.880] the dealer over the car price. If the car's a lemon, you go back to that dealer and they're
[28:40.880 -> 28:46.780] not going to want to fix it. If the car is good and you go back to that dealer for routine maintenance, they're going to remember
[28:46.780 -> 28:49.960] that you killed them before and they're not cutting you a break on anything.
[28:49.960 -> 28:54.800] There's no such thing as a one-off. I mean anybody listening to this they're
[28:54.800 -> 28:58.280] gonna say yeah well I can remember this one time I had a one-off, alright yeah
[28:58.280 -> 29:02.040] compared to all the other times. So why do we get caught up in this idea then
[29:02.040 -> 29:07.320] apart from the studies and the sort of unlike the false dichotomy that they that they promote
[29:07.800 -> 29:15.500] Why do we get convinced that this idea that negative emotions are more valuable than positive emotions and Chris?
[29:15.500 -> 29:17.500] And what can you teach us?
[29:17.580 -> 29:22.340] The challenge those perceptions. Well, it's it's what gets held up to us all the time
[29:22.520 -> 29:25.040] Like before my book came out and people just knew that
[29:25.040 -> 29:29.440] I taught negotiation, I was a hostage negotiator, I taught negotiations in business school.
[29:29.440 -> 29:35.200] And I would go to business events or any sort of professional gathering and they say,
[29:35.200 -> 29:39.520] hey, this is Chris Voss, he was a hostage negotiator. He teaches business negotiation
[29:39.520 -> 29:45.840] at Georgetown. And every time somebody would speak up and go like, you know what, let me tell you about this
[29:45.840 -> 29:52.080] deal I negotiated. I had them over a barrel. They had nowhere to go. I had all the leverage.
[29:52.960 -> 29:58.560] Now, if you're at a gathering, the only person that speaks up is the person that hammered somebody.
[29:58.560 -> 30:03.840] You see over and over, wow, I guess if I want to have a deal that I brag about,
[30:03.840 -> 30:07.080] I show off to the boys, prove to my brother in law how
[30:07.080 -> 30:10.760] smart I am, I got to go out and I got to beat somebody down. And
[30:10.760 -> 30:13.660] then I'm going to brag about it for the rest of the time. So I'm
[30:13.660 -> 30:19.200] afraid our examples in real life and in movies and TV are always
[30:19.200 -> 30:22.600] of somebody smashing somebody else. That those are the models
[30:22.600 -> 30:23.600] that are held up to us.
[30:24.040 -> 30:25.580] So let's go back to the role play then.
[30:25.580 -> 30:31.100] You've already said to me it seems like I have a plan. What's the next thing that you would normally
[30:31.100 -> 30:37.100] do with someone? First of all I'm gonna listen to your game plan so if I get an idea of have you
[30:37.100 -> 30:42.620] ever done this before or do you have any sort of a sense for the environment? You know what are the
[30:42.620 -> 30:46.120] challenges? I'm probably gonna say it you know how'd this go when you tried it for the environment? You know, what are the challenges? I'm probably going to say, you know,
[30:46.120 -> 30:48.520] how'd this go when you tried it in the past?
[30:48.520 -> 30:49.440] What happened?
[30:49.440 -> 30:51.280] What sort of obstacles you run into?
[30:51.280 -> 30:54.200] I'm really more interested in whether or not
[30:54.200 -> 30:57.160] you have any idea of what you're getting into
[30:57.160 -> 30:59.400] and how collaborative you're going to be.
[30:59.400 -> 31:03.560] Because even if you cut me a great deal financially,
[31:03.560 -> 31:05.480] if dealing with you is painful,
[31:05.480 -> 31:07.800] if it sucks the life out of me,
[31:07.800 -> 31:10.260] it's going to be blood money and I'm not going to want it.
[31:10.260 -> 31:13.760] Even if it's lucrative, it's just going to be too painful.
[31:13.760 -> 31:16.140] I want deals that I want to repeat.
[31:16.140 -> 31:18.280] So now I'm starting to gather an idea
[31:18.280 -> 31:20.160] of what our relationship's going to look like.
[31:20.160 -> 31:22.320] Can I ask you a question at all?
[31:22.320 -> 31:25.840] And have you answer, or do you just want to dismiss me?
[31:25.840 -> 31:29.140] You know, how you do anything is how you do everything.
[31:29.140 -> 31:30.980] That's going to be the way you are to deal
[31:30.980 -> 31:34.280] with the entire duration of the relationship.
[31:34.280 -> 31:35.680] And I want to know what I'm getting into
[31:35.680 -> 31:36.780] with you as a business partner,
[31:36.780 -> 31:41.120] because I'm into long-term, prosperous relationships,
[31:41.120 -> 31:43.200] positive sum games.
[31:43.200 -> 31:47.280] And if you are not, then even if you throw a lot of money on the table,
[31:47.640 -> 31:48.920] it's still going to be painful.
[31:52.160 -> 31:56.440] As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising
[31:56.440 -> 32:00.800] campaigns, but a deep voice doesn't sell B2B and advertising on the wrong
[32:00.800 -> 32:02.880] platform doesn't sell B2B either.
[32:03.080 -> 32:07.320] That's why if you're a B2B marketer, you should use LinkedIn ads.
[32:07.320 -> 32:11.560] LinkedIn has the targeting capabilities to help you reach the world's largest professional
[32:11.560 -> 32:12.560] audience.
[32:12.560 -> 32:16.600] That's right, over 70 million decision makers all in one place.
[32:16.600 -> 32:22.000] All the big wigs, then medium wigs, also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[32:22.000 -> 32:23.880] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[32:23.880 -> 32:28.360] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[32:28.360 -> 32:33.720] So, does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
[32:33.720 -> 32:35.120] voice in the world?
[32:35.120 -> 32:36.120] Yes.
[32:36.120 -> 32:37.320] Yes, it does.
[32:37.320 -> 32:41.840] Get started today and see why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be.
[32:41.840 -> 32:45.120] We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
[32:45.120 -> 32:48.360] Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit.
[32:48.360 -> 32:50.720] That's LinkedIn.com slash results.
[32:50.720 -> 32:51.720] Terms and conditions apply.
[32:51.720 -> 32:53.560] Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds.
[32:53.560 -> 32:58.060] Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise
[32:58.060 -> 32:59.880] prices due to inflation.
[32:59.880 -> 33:00.960] They said yes.
[33:00.960 -> 33:08.280] And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts, they said, what the f*** are you talking about, you insane Hollywood
[33:08.280 -> 33:13.120] a*****e? So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just
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[33:19.760 -> 33:25.320] time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. Slows, full terms at Mint Mobile.com.
[33:27.480 -> 33:29.000] On our podcast, we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a better way
[33:29.000 -> 33:30.960] so you can live a better life.
[33:30.960 -> 33:34.320] And that's why when I found Mint Mobile, I had to share.
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[34:38.880 -> 35:05.280] To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, So, are there other tricks that you would employ apart from
[35:05.280 -> 35:10.640] disarming me with seems like, looks like, feels like, what are the other tricks to
[35:10.640 -> 35:14.720] conversation? You mentioned Oprah at the beginning, what does Oprah Winfrey do in
[35:14.720 -> 35:19.000] her interviews that make her so successful? I remember a long long time
[35:19.000 -> 35:23.560] ago one of my psychology teachers explained to me the power of mirroring,
[35:23.560 -> 35:25.360] just repeating what someone says.
[35:25.360 -> 35:29.040] I don't know whether, is that part of the negotiator's handbook?
[35:29.040 -> 35:31.960] It can be, you know, you gave me two different questions.
[35:31.960 -> 35:34.320] What does Oprah do and what's part of the negotiator's handbook?
[35:34.320 -> 35:36.240] So I'm going to go to what Oprah does first.
[35:36.240 -> 35:38.040] Does that make me a bad negotiator right there?
[35:38.040 -> 35:40.800] Ha ha ha, no, it means I listen.
[35:40.800 -> 35:42.560] It seems like you think it does.
[35:42.560 -> 35:44.600] Ha ha ha, ooh, there's a mislabel.
[35:44.600 -> 35:45.640] No, not at all.
[35:45.640 -> 35:49.400] Getting people to say no is a good thing. First of all don't be scared of no,
[35:49.400 -> 35:53.960] but here's a real key to what Oprah does. Sorry I can't let you move on
[35:53.960 -> 35:58.600] from why no is a good thing. I can't let you move on because we're all taught no is a bad thing.
[35:58.600 -> 36:08.560] Why is no a good thing? The biggest turning point in every negotiator's life is coming to grips with
[36:08.560 -> 36:11.440] what no really is.
[36:11.440 -> 36:15.600] That may have been the single biggest turning point for me.
[36:15.600 -> 36:20.640] Because like everybody else, getting to yes, you want to hear yes, yes is the pot of gold
[36:20.640 -> 36:26.120] at the end of the rainbow. I mean, you know, we're almost hypnotized
[36:26.120 -> 36:30.040] to believe that yes, when you hear yes,
[36:30.040 -> 36:34.960] the heavens part, the angels sing, the birds chirp.
[36:34.960 -> 36:37.000] But so the turning point for me was
[36:37.000 -> 36:40.320] I read a book called, Start With No, Jim Camp 2002.
[36:40.320 -> 36:42.360] I'm passing a book in a airport bookstore
[36:42.360 -> 36:44.120] and I literally do a double take.
[36:44.120 -> 36:44.960] I'm like, what?
[36:44.960 -> 36:47.040] Start with no.
[36:47.040 -> 36:48.320] You're supposed to get yes.
[36:48.320 -> 36:50.160] How do you start with no?
[36:50.160 -> 36:55.920] And camp was like, in order to free people up, just tell him it's okay to say no.
[36:55.920 -> 36:58.160] He called it the right to veto.
[36:58.160 -> 37:01.200] And his negotiation style was to start out with by saying like, look, you can say no
[37:01.200 -> 37:02.200] to me at any time.
[37:02.200 -> 37:07.360] I just want you to know I'm not here to try to back you into the corner. Yes anytime you want
[37:08.160 -> 37:09.440] Say no
[37:09.440 -> 37:11.680] I'll get up and move away. I'll be gone
[37:12.640 -> 37:16.100] And his approach was that preserves the other person's autonomy
[37:16.880 -> 37:19.780] And he literally says in his book people would die for their autonomy
[37:20.800 -> 37:22.800] and i'm and i'm reading and i'm going like
[37:23.280 -> 37:24.720] No kidding
[37:24.720 -> 37:28.880] That's why we have us as negotiators in the first place.
[37:28.880 -> 37:32.600] We had SWAT teams, we didn't have negotiators.
[37:32.600 -> 37:34.880] We just surround their house and tell them to come out or
[37:34.880 -> 37:39.080] get killed, which was taking away their autonomy.
[37:39.080 -> 37:43.480] And law enforcement globally were killing people who would rather die than
[37:43.480 -> 37:45.120] give up their autonomy.
[37:45.120 -> 37:49.440] They were caught, you know, they come out guns blazing, but after a while we'd be like,
[37:49.440 -> 37:55.820] all right, so we know this dude came out shooting at us, but he was just some poor slob that
[37:55.820 -> 38:00.000] had too much to drink and got upset and mad at his wife and she called him names and ran
[38:00.000 -> 38:01.000] out.
[38:01.000 -> 38:06.680] Did this guy deserve to die because he drank too much and he was unhappy? Yeah
[38:06.680 -> 38:12.120] you know it was a legally justified killing but morally is there a better
[38:12.120 -> 38:19.440] way to approach this? And we thought what if we pay somebody to maybe ask him nice
[38:19.440 -> 38:24.000] and that was kind of how I was all born. But is there something about saying no as
[38:24.000 -> 38:27.720] well like I'm thinking about a recent negotiation
[38:27.720 -> 38:30.440] I had with my 11 year old son, Chris.
[38:30.440 -> 38:32.440] And he was asking me about something
[38:32.440 -> 38:34.600] that I felt uncomfortable with.
[38:34.600 -> 38:38.320] And when I said no to him, when his request,
[38:38.320 -> 38:40.400] it gave me a sense of safety.
[38:40.400 -> 38:43.280] And then I felt like we could negotiate from there on,
[38:43.280 -> 38:48.000] we could find a middle ground. And that's the misinterpretation of data
[38:48.280 -> 38:51.860] and I'll characterize it for you in a minute a
[38:53.380 -> 38:58.420] Misinterpretation of data is that playing basketball makes you tall because just look at all the people that are playing at all
[38:58.620 -> 39:04.260] So a lot of people that hear that story and they're gonna say well kids know how to negotiate with parents. No
[39:06.400 -> 39:15.040] What you did was a human nature response because exactly as you said, having said no, you felt that you sort
[39:15.040 -> 39:27.280] of protected your own interests. You're no longer under attack. You're more open to hearing the possibilities, feeling safe and protected.
[39:27.280 -> 39:29.480] Through the course of the interactions,
[39:29.480 -> 39:33.360] your child has figured out that after you say no,
[39:33.360 -> 39:37.640] there's a pretty good chance you're actually going to listen to what they want.
[39:37.640 -> 39:41.780] If they're not put off by the fact that you said no,
[39:41.780 -> 39:46.320] if they're patient, then that's when the negotiation is really
[39:46.320 -> 39:53.200] probably going to start and that's human on human it's not parent and child it's human on human.
[39:53.200 -> 39:58.640] In this um in this brilliant therapy session as well as educational conversation that we're having
[39:58.640 -> 40:03.920] um i'll tell you the problem i have with my kids and i'd love to to know the negotiators way out
[40:03.920 -> 40:07.400] of this they're only young they're eight five, but I cannot get them to understand
[40:07.400 -> 40:11.400] the power of consequence. They will happily not get dressed for school and
[40:11.400 -> 40:14.760] then be annoyed that we're ten minutes late dropping them off into the classroom.
[40:14.760 -> 40:18.600] They will happily not go to bed, then be grumpy in the morning when they haven't
[40:18.600 -> 40:23.320] had enough sleep. How do I get a five and an eight-year-old to understand
[40:23.320 -> 40:28.300] consequences? It's all, you know, with your kids it's all about helping them think and that's
[40:28.300 -> 40:30.980] really what you're asking me, you know, how do I get them to think into the
[40:30.980 -> 40:37.540] future a little bit more. So the starting point to that is often when we're late
[40:37.540 -> 40:42.260] to school, how you gonna feed? Because that's how questions are designed to get
[40:42.260 -> 40:47.380] people to think. How it is principally focused on implementation?
[40:47.380 -> 40:51.040] What is principally focused on uncovering problems?
[40:51.040 -> 40:54.000] Those each words have a primary design.
[40:54.000 -> 41:01.440] So if you drag your feet, how did it feel last time when you walked in late?
[41:01.440 -> 41:03.640] How embarrassing was that?
[41:03.640 -> 41:07.280] That's a time travel question. You're trying to
[41:07.280 -> 41:13.880] gently put them in a moment in time. Humans hate to be embarrassed. Get them
[41:13.880 -> 41:18.240] thinking. You know it's called in-depth thinking, slow thinking, Danny
[41:18.240 -> 41:22.320] Kahneman would say, but that's in-depth thinking and your job as a parent is to
[41:22.320 -> 41:30.480] really get your kids thinking ability as high as it could possibly be and kick them out of the nest.
[41:30.480 -> 41:36.640] I really want to talk to you about listening and the the importance of
[41:36.640 -> 41:40.400] listening because I think we all think that to have a good negotiation you have
[41:40.400 -> 41:45.540] to be talking but you you talk in the book about active listening. What is that?
[41:45.540 -> 41:45.960] Yeah
[41:45.960 -> 41:48.800] you know what and that that word has become enough of a
[41:49.040 -> 41:54.040] Cliche that we you know, we're cautious of the term because a lot of active listening is taught poorly
[41:54.800 -> 41:59.640] And we really want to get proactive if you will because you're listening for specific things
[42:00.360 -> 42:06.000] Humans are naturally negative. The majority of our thinking is negative, because that's how we're wired.
[42:06.000 -> 42:08.200] It's survival thinking is negative.
[42:08.200 -> 42:11.560] When we were really being chased by saber tooth tigers,
[42:11.560 -> 42:13.880] and or bears were in caves.
[42:13.880 -> 42:15.360] If the optimistic cave man said,
[42:15.360 -> 42:18.560] yeah, I know last time Chris went in a dark cave,
[42:18.560 -> 42:20.180] he never came out, but I'm optimistic.
[42:20.180 -> 42:21.360] I'm going to go in this one.
[42:21.360 -> 42:23.400] You know, those guys didn't survive, they got eaten.
[42:23.400 -> 42:31.200] So we've inherited survival thinking is negative. So if you know that, then you'll start out intensely looking
[42:31.200 -> 42:35.920] to deactivate the negative thinking, which is ridiculously simple, calling it out.
[42:35.920 -> 42:39.520] The elephant in the room. You don't get rid of the elephant in the room by ignoring it or denying
[42:39.520 -> 42:43.920] it's there. You diminish its impact by saying there's an elephant in the room. So I can make
[42:43.920 -> 42:46.620] some pretty good predictions on what your negative thinking about me is
[42:46.620 -> 42:47.620] going to be.
[42:47.620 -> 42:52.720] If we're back in this deal where we're setting up a book tour, when we get ready to get into
[42:52.720 -> 42:56.940] price, I'm going to say, look, I'm probably going to sound greedy.
[42:56.940 -> 43:02.680] As opposed to your gut instinct would be, look, I don't want to seem like I'm greedy.
[43:02.680 -> 43:08.720] The denial to get people really good at this, what we coach them on, in the back of your mind, what
[43:08.720 -> 43:09.720] would you deny?
[43:09.720 -> 43:11.720] I don't want you to think I'm greedy.
[43:11.720 -> 43:14.160] I don't want you to think I'm hard to get along with.
[43:14.160 -> 43:16.900] I don't want you to think I'm a diva.
[43:16.900 -> 43:17.900] Whatever it might be.
[43:17.900 -> 43:21.560] Everybody's got a gun instinct for stuff they know they should probably deny before the
[43:21.560 -> 43:23.480] negotiation starts.
[43:23.480 -> 43:25.240] Instead of denying it, you just straight
[43:25.240 -> 43:28.560] out call it out. Look, I'm probably going to seem like a diva. I'm probably going to
[43:28.560 -> 43:32.120] seem like I can't make a decision. If you were going to do business with me, I'd say
[43:32.120 -> 43:35.720] like, look, I'm probably going to seem like I'm a weak leader, but I don't do anything
[43:35.720 -> 43:40.520] without my team's full involvement. I can't implement without my team. So for us to even
[43:40.520 -> 43:47.600] proceed, I got to bring my whole team on board. We got to bring them all up to speed. Because somebody wants to get a quick decision out of me might go like,
[43:47.600 -> 43:51.400] well, aren't you the decision maker? Aren't you in charge? So I'm going to preempt that.
[43:51.400 -> 43:55.280] I'm like, look, I got a team. I'm probably going to look like I'm not in charge. I'm
[43:55.280 -> 43:57.420] probably going to look like I'm not the decision maker.
[43:57.420 -> 43:59.480] Which makes you seem vulnerable, which is no bad thing.
[43:59.480 -> 44:03.840] You know, there's a lot to that. Allowing yourself to appear vulnerable without being
[44:03.840 -> 44:10.200] afraid of it. I think that's what a lot of people like for me vulnerability is like oh I'm sad
[44:10.200 -> 44:15.400] but that you know that's my misconstruing what that dynamic really is.
[44:15.400 -> 44:19.040] I need to be honest about my shortcomings so you're not blindsided by
[44:19.040 -> 44:23.440] them and I'm not scared to be honest and that's a difficult bridge for people to
[44:23.440 -> 44:28.480] cross until they see how effective it is, until they see how it establishes
[44:28.480 -> 44:32.560] relationships. But is it not a line of argument Chris that doing that like you
[44:32.560 -> 44:36.760] might sow a seed of doubt in that mind that might not have been there by calling
[44:36.760 -> 44:40.800] it out? Everybody's afraid of that a thousand percent that is the biggest
[44:40.800 -> 44:48.840] thing and not only is that not true but the opposite is so true that we actually use it as an inoculating technique
[44:50.200 -> 44:54.040] because let's say you got no reason to have a problem with me.
[44:55.520 -> 44:57.760] Um, but I'm going to say, look,
[44:58.320 -> 45:00.120] you're not going to like what I'm getting ready to say.
[45:00.320 -> 45:04.480] It's going to sound really harsh because you,
[45:04.480 -> 45:07.680] and you're not going to back up and say, hold it, hold it, hold it.
[45:07.680 -> 45:08.680] I already think you're a jerk.
[45:08.680 -> 45:13.160] Now I think you're a bigger jerk, so don't even let another thing come out of your mind.
[45:13.160 -> 45:17.880] You're going to kind of brace yourself and in the slightest instance, what you will imagine
[45:17.880 -> 45:22.000] because we're, like I said before, we're wired to be negative.
[45:22.000 -> 45:25.360] You will imagine something 10 times worse than what I have to say.
[45:28.840 -> 45:28.920] And what I have to say will actually be a relief. Like when, when,
[45:31.640 -> 45:31.680] if we're doing a book tour deal, uh,
[45:35.200 -> 45:35.240] and we started talking about money and percentages and you, you're going to like,
[45:38.120 -> 45:38.400] you know, what's, what's your compensation? What do you guys charge?
[45:41.480 -> 45:41.520] My answer is going to be an insanely high amount of money,
[45:42.800 -> 45:43.600] more than you've ever paid.
[45:47.200 -> 45:49.040] It's going to stop your heart when you find out how much it cost me. And then I'm gonna shut up.
[45:49.040 -> 45:51.760] No one has ever walked away from us
[45:52.920 -> 45:55.320] when we've said that, ever.
[45:55.320 -> 45:59.240] Because people are remarkably resilient
[45:59.240 -> 46:00.640] when you inoculate them.
[46:01.520 -> 46:04.560] Now, I'm not saying we've made every deal,
[46:04.560 -> 46:05.760] but I don't want you to
[46:05.760 -> 46:11.400] be shocked over the price and have me fail to make a deal that I should have
[46:11.400 -> 46:18.760] made. So when I drop a number on you I'm gonna be open to a better deal but I
[46:18.760 -> 46:22.280] don't want you to be so blown away by the number that your thinking shuts down
[46:22.280 -> 46:27.880] and you just give up at that point in time. So we've got to continue to explore.
[46:28.200 -> 46:32.400] It's interesting for me to hear that because one thing that I am all for that is
[46:32.440 -> 46:35.720] I hate the thought of having a conversation that makes someone feel bad.
[46:36.360 -> 46:39.840] So I do the total opposite to what you've just said. I will say to them,
[46:40.480 -> 46:42.680] can I have a quick chat? It's nothing to worry about. And it's, you know,
[46:42.680 -> 46:44.000] I don't think you're going to have a problem with this.
[46:44.000 -> 46:48.000] And I think it's going to be fun and I think we can work it out together, but I just wanted to go through something.
[46:48.000 -> 46:56.000] Why do I, and I worry and worry and worry and I honestly think, I'm now 42 Chris, I think that I've spent my life worrying about those conversations.
[46:56.000 -> 47:01.000] I've never had one as bad as the role play in my head before that conversation.
[47:01.000 -> 47:08.920] I wish I could get out of this mindset of worrying about how they're gonna feel. Yeah and well you've probably never been shown a better way
[47:08.920 -> 47:12.920] that's one of the problems you don't know a better way out of this and all
[47:12.920 -> 47:19.300] the modeling that we have particularly in movies and television the modeling is
[47:19.300 -> 47:23.840] just so bad so I mean and unless you'd stumbled across somebody handling it
[47:23.840 -> 47:25.660] properly you got no
[47:25.660 -> 47:29.900] way of knowing. And what's going through your head is your natural negative
[47:29.900 -> 47:35.000] wiring and as you pointed out, it's always worse than what you imagine is
[47:35.000 -> 47:38.660] always worse. You know, there's occasionally we're seeing more guidance
[47:38.660 -> 47:42.200] and coaching in other areas where people are trying to get us to believe that
[47:42.200 -> 47:44.780] what we imagine is always going to be worse than how it's actually going to
[47:44.780 -> 47:45.500] happen.
[47:45.500 -> 47:47.200] And somehow that just doesn't get transferred
[47:47.200 -> 47:48.640] into negotiations.
[47:48.640 -> 47:51.840] And so, you've never seen another way to do it.
[47:51.840 -> 47:55.000] And you're also rehearsing high stakes negotiations.
[47:55.000 -> 47:58.060] Like when we're teaching you to be a black swan,
[47:58.060 -> 48:00.320] when you're learning a black swan method,
[48:00.320 -> 48:02.440] we'll coach you to practice up
[48:02.440 -> 48:04.880] on small stakes negotiations,
[48:04.880 -> 48:07.860] so that you're willing to try something completely new
[48:07.860 -> 48:10.120] in a conversation that doesn't matter.
[48:10.120 -> 48:11.880] And then when it changes the outcome,
[48:11.880 -> 48:14.840] you'll be like, wow, all right,
[48:14.840 -> 48:16.780] now let me try it in something important.
[48:16.780 -> 48:18.160] Do it in a restaurant.
[48:18.160 -> 48:21.320] I did this, I just started dating a girl on our first date.
[48:22.240 -> 48:26.400] We're in a steakhouse and they walk us right past the
[48:26.400 -> 48:31.280] table I want to sit in and walk us to the back room in a table that is like farthest away,
[48:31.280 -> 48:36.000] you know, because they're doing a social distancing stuff. And I've never been in
[48:36.000 -> 48:39.840] this restaurant before. And, you know, I don't know, they're giving me the best seat in the
[48:39.840 -> 48:45.680] house, but I want the best seat in the house and I'm going to get it."
[48:49.440 -> 48:50.000] So a young lady walks us back to the back table and I go,
[48:55.760 -> 48:56.560] I am going to be the worst customer that has ever walked into this restaurant.
[49:02.000 -> 49:06.080] Now, what is going through her mind? Because she's had some problem child in the restaurant. They've seen some horrible things. They've seen people that, you know, maybe they want to, maybe
[49:06.080 -> 49:07.120] they want to eat in her underwear.
[49:07.160 -> 49:08.960] You know, maybe they want to eat with their fingers, you
[49:08.960 -> 49:09.920] know, something horrible.
[49:10.320 -> 49:12.560] They want to put their face literally in their plate,
[49:12.560 -> 49:14.840] eat straight up, you know, who knows what I want, but she's
[49:14.840 -> 49:16.080] going to imagine all this stuff.
[49:16.520 -> 49:19.520] And in that slightest moment, you know, her survival wire,
[49:19.520 -> 49:20.640] he's going to kick into place.
[49:21.000 -> 49:24.360] And I wait about three breaths.
[49:24.840 -> 49:26.520] And then I say say we walked right
[49:26.520 -> 49:29.840] by a table in the other room that I'd really love to sit at can we please go
[49:29.840 -> 49:33.320] sit in this table and she is so relieved that without even checking with the
[49:33.320 -> 49:36.560] people up front she walks us right over there and we sit down at best seat in the house
[49:36.560 -> 49:43.480] Yes that's the easiest negotiation. Yeah and it's fascinating to hear but I'm
[49:43.480 -> 49:48.240] also intrigued by in this age of like mental health and well-being I'm Ie, mae'n ffasyniadus i'w clywed, ond rwy'n ymdrech i, yn ystod hyn o iechyd meddwl a chyfieithu, rwy'n ymdrech i fod yn gwybod
[49:48.240 -> 49:52.240] eich bod chi wedi dechrau eich gyrfa weithio ar ystod y cyflawniadau ffyrdd o fuddsoddi
[49:52.240 -> 49:55.200] lle roeddech chi'n deall pobl sy'n bwysig iawn,
[49:55.200 -> 49:58.880] lle efallai'r prosesau meddwl y byddai'n eu profi
[49:58.880 -> 50:02.560] yn ystod y penderfyniadau mwyaf o fathau sy'n digwydd arnynt.
[50:02.560 -> 50:06.080] Felly, sut y gallwch chi helpu'r rhai o ni sy'n clywed hynny i ddeall scenarios happening for them. So, how can you help those of us listening to this
[50:06.080 -> 50:08.960] to understand how do we help people maybe with
[50:08.960 -> 50:12.100] mental health challenges that they're going through
[50:12.100 -> 50:13.700] using some of your techniques?
[50:13.700 -> 50:17.160] Stop giving advice and just let people
[50:17.160 -> 50:18.900] just be a sounding board.
[50:18.900 -> 50:21.780] Don't give advice at all, stop.
[50:21.780 -> 50:23.700] Here's a big advantage to sounding board.
[50:23.700 -> 50:25.280] All of us, the thoughts in our head,
[50:25.280 -> 50:30.280] they make sense when they're in our head. And as soon as we start talking them out loud,
[50:30.280 -> 50:34.680] just that mere act of saying stuff out loud, no matter how troubled you are,
[50:34.680 -> 50:42.800] some of it is going to clear up. And the mere fact that the only thing you did was say it out loud,
[50:42.800 -> 50:45.360] with the person who is your sounding board facilitated for you, was say it out loud, but the person who was your sounding
[50:45.360 -> 50:51.280] board facilitated for you was also feeling in you that you could cope.
[50:51.280 -> 50:56.360] Because you sort of missed the fact that the sounding board was not judgmental, didn't
[50:56.360 -> 51:00.560] give any advice, didn't tell you you were wrong.
[51:00.560 -> 51:03.640] All they did was help you talk stuff out loud.
[51:03.640 -> 51:09.000] The suicide hotline I was on, it's actually a crisis intervention hotline, which is you know, there's you know
[51:09.000 -> 51:12.700] You might be in crisis but not be suicidal and we wanted to help those people too
[51:12.700 -> 51:17.600] And I can remember I took one call where a young lady calls and she says look, you know
[51:17.600 -> 51:23.060] My friend here is just he's just in really tough shape and I can't get him to call you
[51:23.480 -> 51:25.040] But he says if I
[51:25.040 -> 51:28.800] hand him the phone that he'll talk to you. So I'm like, yeah, all right, put him on
[51:28.800 -> 51:34.360] the phone. And he sounded completely calm in the moment, but I knew from the
[51:34.360 -> 51:38.240] context something was troubling him and he was trying to cope with it himself.
[51:38.240 -> 51:41.960] And I said, sounds like you're going through a tough time. And 20 minutes
[51:41.960 -> 51:46.700] later he said, wow, I had no idea all that was inside me
[51:46.700 -> 51:52.560] I'm good now and all I was was a sounding board for 20 minutes and if you
[51:52.560 -> 51:56.540] have to be a sounding board for more than 20 minutes you're not being a
[51:56.540 -> 52:00.520] sounding board you're giving advice and you need to stop because if you're a
[52:00.520 -> 52:04.900] good sounding board they can they can they can level themselves out in 20
[52:04.900 -> 52:06.840] minutes or less if you're a good sounding board, they can, they can, they can level themselves out in 20 minutes or less, if you're a good sounding board.
[52:07.120 -> 52:24.080] And is that an important mindset to start with Chris, because I think if you go into a conversation like that, and you've already made an assumption about what their problem is, and how you can help, you're so fixed on, I can't wait to tell them what my solution is, you actually miss what they're telling you.
[52:24.160 -> 52:27.760] 1000%. So interesting. So what should we do in that situation
[52:27.760 -> 52:32.200] then? We we should just accept that our assumption for how we can help is no use
[52:32.200 -> 52:36.560] and we just let it go or should we still if we hear something that we think we
[52:36.560 -> 52:40.960] can help with we should still dive in? Yeah you know at some point of time if
[52:40.960 -> 52:46.400] you absolutely have to offer a thought, I always get permission
[52:46.400 -> 52:47.400] first.
[52:47.400 -> 52:54.080] Let's go back to this no thing, because people feel safe and protected when they say no.
[52:54.080 -> 52:56.080] They feel like they don't have to accept.
[52:56.080 -> 53:01.480] I will say something like, are you against me offering you a couple of thoughts?
[53:01.480 -> 53:09.040] Then with each thought that I offer, I got to be in full-on read mode.
[53:09.040 -> 53:13.160] Because if they start to shut down and their body language and their facial expression
[53:13.160 -> 53:19.460] are going to tell me in 10 seconds or less, then I need to shut up. Because if they're
[53:19.460 -> 53:25.400] shutting down and I keep talking, then this that back down in the same downward spiral
[53:25.400 -> 53:29.840] where they feel that talking to people was a waste of their time.
[53:29.840 -> 53:33.200] And what's the technique there because I've been in those things where I start
[53:33.200 -> 53:37.120] offering something and I see that they go hmm but I'm not sure how to stop
[53:37.120 -> 53:40.800] offering the advice what do I would you you can't just shut up and say actually
[53:40.800 -> 53:44.800] no that's rubbish do you know what I mean? Yeah well you could say um look it
[53:44.800 -> 53:46.840] sounds like I'm off track.
[53:46.840 -> 53:48.120] Because they're giving you body language
[53:48.120 -> 53:49.120] that you're off track.
[53:49.120 -> 53:49.960] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[53:49.960 -> 53:51.720] Or you can even say, it feels like I'm off track.
[53:51.720 -> 53:54.960] A lot of people, it kind of depends upon how you're wired,
[53:54.960 -> 53:55.880] whether you want to go with,
[53:55.880 -> 53:57.880] it sounds like, it looks like, it feels like.
[53:57.880 -> 53:59.760] I mean, I get one of the person,
[53:59.760 -> 54:01.700] one guy we've coached up in a Black Swan Method,
[54:01.700 -> 54:03.640] he likes, it feels like,
[54:03.640 -> 54:08.840] and he uses it with his family and he uses it in business deals. He was telling us about,
[54:08.840 -> 54:12.520] he was trying to get an appointment with a CEO and the secretary was
[54:12.520 -> 54:17.920] blocking, was blowing him off, and he literally said, and how you say
[54:17.920 -> 54:21.880] this is really important too, he's great with the inquisitive curiosity voice
[54:21.880 -> 54:25.040] because you could say, it feels like you're blowing me off.
[54:25.040 -> 54:26.000] That's an accusation.
[54:26.000 -> 54:27.840] That tone of voice is really bad.
[54:27.840 -> 54:31.640] Instead he said, it feels like you're blowing me off.
[54:32.800 -> 54:35.140] Same words, completely different impact.
[54:35.140 -> 54:36.200] And he got the meeting.
[54:36.200 -> 54:37.720] So you coach people on this, Chris.
[54:37.720 -> 54:40.160] So what are the sloppy or the worst habits
[54:40.160 -> 54:43.200] that people get into that often inhibit them
[54:43.200 -> 54:45.280] getting the results they want?
[54:45.280 -> 54:48.040] Yeah, well, there's three default types.
[54:48.040 -> 54:51.360] The world is pretty much made up of three types.
[54:51.360 -> 54:53.480] And I got no shortage of data to back that up.
[54:53.480 -> 55:00.160] You're either assertive, you're either data oriented, where you want lots of information,
[55:00.160 -> 55:04.540] or you're relationship oriented, where you just care about the interaction being pleasant.
[55:04.540 -> 55:05.320] So if you're assertive, your big problem is you're going first, you know, you're relationship oriented, where you just care about the interaction being pleasant. So if you're assertive,
[55:05.320 -> 55:07.600] your big problem is you're going first,
[55:07.600 -> 55:10.080] you're hitting them hard, you're high anchoring,
[55:10.080 -> 55:11.840] you're demanding, you're pounding,
[55:11.840 -> 55:13.720] you're driving deals away from the table,
[55:13.720 -> 55:15.080] you're not finding out the better deal
[55:15.080 -> 55:16.520] that could have been there.
[55:16.520 -> 55:21.520] In point of fact, negotiation is a positive sum game
[55:21.540 -> 55:23.760] and you're treating it like a zero sum game
[55:23.760 -> 55:25.440] which limits how much you can make.
[55:26.040 -> 55:26.240] All right.
[55:26.240 -> 55:29.760] So if you're relationship oriented, you just want to have a great time, but
[55:29.760 -> 55:33.800] you know, you know, you never let them know what you need and you get pushed
[55:33.800 -> 55:39.000] around a lot because you're trying to make them happy, you actually need
[55:39.000 -> 55:40.920] elements of the assertive person in you.
[55:41.480 -> 55:50.080] I mean, let's say they want you to be, and many people do, you're making them guess.
[55:50.080 -> 55:53.740] If you never told them what you really needed out of the deal, you're never going to be
[55:53.740 -> 55:56.080] happy, but you're scared to tell them.
[55:56.080 -> 55:59.360] So you need an element of assertion in you.
[55:59.360 -> 56:03.400] Each type has bad habits and each type has good things.
[56:03.400 -> 56:06.160] Now if you're data oriented, if you just want to make
[56:06.160 -> 56:13.120] sure that how you think this shit goes, you've already got in your head. The issue is you come
[56:13.120 -> 56:19.200] off as so cold, they're not going to really give you any good information. They're going to be
[56:19.200 -> 56:27.000] leery of you. They're not going to enjoy the interaction. So they'll either be leery of you or you're so reluctant to speak
[56:27.400 -> 56:31.000] Then if you're gonna sort of on the other side, they just pound the heck out of you
[56:31.400 -> 56:34.760] Bang bang bang bang bang and they're and they're horrible for you to deal with
[56:35.040 -> 56:36.360] So that you know
[56:36.360 -> 56:41.880] You you just don't as soon as you smell an assertive a mile away and you won't even come to the table with them
[56:42.320 -> 56:45.080] So interesting. So how do we flex those roles?
[56:45.080 -> 56:48.400] Cause it sounds like it's that we need to be
[56:48.400 -> 56:51.000] different characters at different times.
[56:51.000 -> 56:53.680] So what advice would you give us in terms of being able to
[56:53.680 -> 56:57.480] adopt those, the best characteristics of those three types?
[56:57.480 -> 56:58.960] Yeah, you know, that's a great question.
[56:58.960 -> 57:01.280] And it's not really that you need to be different.
[57:01.280 -> 57:04.120] It's what skills you need to add to your existing,
[57:04.120 -> 57:06.560] who you are now.
[57:06.560 -> 57:13.440] And two out of three people need to be just more comfortable smiling because there's some
[57:13.440 -> 57:16.200] neurological wiring behind that.
[57:16.200 -> 57:19.440] You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind.
[57:19.440 -> 57:24.640] So you want to do what you can to put yourself in a positive frame of mind.
[57:24.640 -> 57:26.840] Smiling is a tiny little way that helps.
[57:26.840 -> 57:30.420] There's actually a hardwire connections between the muscles in your face and the neurons in
[57:30.420 -> 57:31.420] your brain.
[57:31.420 -> 57:36.000] The smile will also tend to help them think simultaneously.
[57:36.000 -> 57:48.580] What happens is that the person who's relationship oriented, the analyst, the person who loves data, notices that the people who smile get a lot more information,
[57:48.580 -> 57:52.600] so they learn to smile because they're very analytical.
[57:52.600 -> 57:57.440] My daughter-in-law is the director of marketing in my company, my son's wife.
[57:57.440 -> 58:02.520] She is an analyst, and we also refer to analysts as assassins.
[58:02.520 -> 58:05.800] I mean, she is an assassin. Everybody that knows her,
[58:05.800 -> 58:07.480] because she's smiling and bubbly
[58:07.480 -> 58:10.320] and she laughs and laughs and laughs
[58:10.320 -> 58:12.880] and she has the best time talking to you.
[58:12.880 -> 58:15.680] Everybody that knows her thinks she's a accommodator,
[58:15.680 -> 58:17.440] relationship-oriented person.
[58:17.440 -> 58:19.640] She's just so darn smart,
[58:19.640 -> 58:22.120] she learned that she gets a lot more information
[58:22.120 -> 58:24.600] out of the situation, the more pleasant she is.
[58:24.600 -> 58:28.600] She is sucking every bit of information that you have,
[58:28.600 -> 58:30.800] because she knows that no matter how good her information is,
[58:30.800 -> 58:33.040] you know something she wants to know.
[58:33.040 -> 58:35.000] And the more she laughs and smiles with you,
[58:35.000 -> 58:37.320] the more likely you are to give it all up.
[58:37.320 -> 58:40.440] That's one of the main habits.
[58:40.440 -> 58:42.800] What a brilliant lesson and a brilliant way to end.
[58:42.800 -> 58:48.200] Well, I have to say, like, I feel slightly anxious and stressed out about this conversation,
[58:48.200 -> 58:54.600] Chris, because I've had a 25 year broadcasting career from children's television to live
[58:54.600 -> 58:55.880] sport and huge events.
[58:55.880 -> 58:58.560] And I've realised how little I know about communicating.
[58:58.560 -> 59:00.960] I'm not sure how I've done it.
[59:00.960 -> 59:04.600] Can I jump in though, Jake, because we didn't answer that question of, tell us about Oprah,
[59:04.600 -> 59:05.960] Chris, if you don't mind.
[59:05.960 -> 59:08.560] Last impression is a lasting impression.
[59:08.560 -> 59:10.760] The entertainment industry is infamous
[59:10.760 -> 59:13.340] for in and a limo, out and a taxi.
[59:13.340 -> 59:16.240] With Oprah, you're in and a limo, out and a limo.
[59:17.480 -> 59:20.640] Her overriding theme that they either express
[59:20.640 -> 59:27.020] throughout her company is no matter what happens from beginning to end, everybody
[59:27.020 -> 59:32.160] we deal with has to feel respected and well-treated.
[59:32.160 -> 59:36.340] And no matter what the argument is, the last thing that Oprah said in those instances that
[59:36.340 -> 59:42.880] I told you about, she's always finished by saying, no matter what you decide, you have
[59:42.880 -> 59:45.460] to understand that I will always love you
[59:45.460 -> 59:47.280] and I will always support you.
[59:47.280 -> 59:48.280] Love it.
[59:48.280 -> 59:52.720] Chris, we've reached the end of our interview where we dive into some quick fire questions.
[59:52.720 -> 59:58.480] We start with this one, three non-negotiable, you know a fair bit about negotiable, non-negotiable
[59:58.480 -> 01:00:02.960] behaviors that you and the people around you have to buy into.
[01:00:02.960 -> 01:00:07.340] We say, the only sin is not learning yeah you're
[01:00:07.340 -> 01:00:13.360] gonna make mistakes we actually we we push the envelope really hard on all
[01:00:13.360 -> 01:00:17.880] levels which means we're gonna make mistakes because we're constantly
[01:00:17.880 -> 01:00:21.960] breaking new ground we're constantly trying new stuff the only sin is to not
[01:00:21.960 -> 01:00:30.320] learn if so the first thing is if you're unwilling to learn and then if you're lazy and then the third thing is if you're
[01:00:30.320 -> 01:00:34.960] dishonest you're not gonna last with us. What advice would you give to a
[01:00:34.960 -> 01:00:40.720] teenage Chris just starting out on your journey? Be nice, that doesn't mean you
[01:00:40.720 -> 01:00:46.760] got to be weak. If I was starting over again I'd have just been a little bit more pleasant in my demeanor.
[01:00:46.760 -> 01:00:49.320] I've always been pretty blunt.
[01:00:49.320 -> 01:00:52.600] My natural demeanor is to be blunt.
[01:00:52.600 -> 01:00:54.800] I wouldn't change anything about any of the things
[01:00:54.800 -> 01:00:56.680] that I believed in other than I would just been
[01:00:56.680 -> 01:00:58.200] a little nicer about it.
[01:00:58.200 -> 01:01:01.360] You've mentioned quite a few books during this conversation.
[01:01:01.360 -> 01:01:04.160] I would love just one book recommendation,
[01:01:04.160 -> 01:01:08.480] apart from your own, of course, that you would offer up to our audience that you found really helpful over the years
[01:01:08.980 -> 01:01:11.100] Wow, it's hard to hold it to one. Um
[01:01:12.420 -> 01:01:15.320] probably stealing fire by Stephen Coddler
[01:01:15.860 -> 01:01:18.700] the prequel to that is a rise of Superman and
[01:01:19.500 -> 01:01:29.400] If you read stealing fire, you're gonna going to want to read the rise of Superman, but it's very much about human performance and just the really cool stuff that the people that
[01:01:29.400 -> 01:01:35.760] are taking the human race to the next level globally, how they think and how they act
[01:01:35.760 -> 01:01:37.400] and where they get the information from.
[01:01:37.400 -> 01:01:38.680] It's about harnessing flow.
[01:01:38.680 -> 01:01:39.680] Is that right, Chris?
[01:01:39.680 -> 01:01:40.680] And looking at how you can-
[01:01:40.680 -> 01:01:41.680] Yep, exactly.
[01:01:41.680 -> 01:01:42.680] Yeah, excellent.
[01:01:42.680 -> 01:01:45.960] Chris, how important is legacy to you? I don't
[01:01:45.960 -> 01:01:50.000] know that I think about it per se. I think we've, you know, we've built,
[01:01:50.000 -> 01:01:54.640] probably ended up building a pretty good legacy. You know, I want to see
[01:01:54.640 -> 01:02:00.080] people continue to do well and that the world's literally a better place. I mean
[01:02:00.080 -> 01:02:04.680] no kidding around. Whether or not it's ascribed to me, yeah, I don't know that I
[01:02:04.680 -> 01:02:06.800] care about that.
[01:02:06.800 -> 01:02:09.380] But I definitely want to see the world be a better place.
[01:02:09.380 -> 01:02:10.780] And the final question,
[01:02:10.780 -> 01:02:14.040] what would be your one golden rule
[01:02:14.040 -> 01:02:16.560] for living a high-performance life?
[01:02:16.560 -> 01:02:17.720] Be optimistic.
[01:02:18.960 -> 01:02:21.660] You know, life happens for you, not to you.
[01:02:21.660 -> 01:02:24.320] And that little mindset shift
[01:02:24.320 -> 01:02:25.360] makes the world a better place.
[01:02:25.920 -> 01:02:29.920] What an amazing number of lessons. If you're listening to this conversation and you want more,
[01:02:29.920 -> 01:02:35.360] Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss is available now. Chris, thank you so much for
[01:02:35.360 -> 01:02:41.760] coming on here and sharing. I think what's so good about this is that, you know, it's not another
[01:02:41.760 -> 01:02:47.180] kind of book that you've written because you've learned a few things along the way and whatever, and you feel like you've got something to
[01:02:47.180 -> 01:02:48.180] tell people.
[01:02:48.180 -> 01:02:54.040] We're talking here about lessons that you've learned 20 years in the FBI, negotiating with
[01:02:54.040 -> 01:02:58.480] international terrorists and, and criminals and years in the SWAT team.
[01:02:58.480 -> 01:03:01.520] You know, this is genuine life lessons that you're sharing with people.
[01:03:01.520 -> 01:03:04.440] And it's an absolute pleasure to, to have you on the podcast.
[01:03:04.440 -> 01:03:08.880] I've, I've picked up loads in that. Yeah, likewise, Chris, it's been a real privilege. Thank you.
[01:03:08.880 -> 01:03:10.800] Thanks for having me on guys. I really enjoyed it.
[01:03:14.720 -> 01:03:20.000] Listen, I don't want to make this a bit self-indulgent, but when I started the role play,
[01:03:20.000 -> 01:03:23.280] I literally felt like I was in a Hollywood movie for the first time in my life.
[01:03:23.280 -> 01:03:25.520] I literally felt like I was in a Hollywood movie for the first time in my life.
[01:03:31.840 -> 01:03:37.920] But in all seriousness, like, I know that he's negotiated with terrorists and, you know, kidnappers and bank robbers and stuff. But the lessons he's learned from those conversations
[01:03:37.920 -> 01:03:43.040] are so valuable, aren't they? Oh, incredibly. I just felt, I felt it was a real privilege.
[01:03:43.040 -> 01:03:46.160] I felt it was just sharing privilege, I felt it was just
[01:03:43.840 -> 01:03:48.160] sharing, so like just dropping so many
[01:03:46.160 -> 01:03:49.680] knowledge bombs on us that are
[01:03:48.160 -> 01:03:51.200] applicable, like we were asking
[01:03:49.680 -> 01:03:53.840] questions about how we use it with our
[01:03:51.200 -> 01:03:55.920] children, but that was as applicable as how
[01:03:53.840 -> 01:03:58.080] you would use it in business or in sport
[01:03:55.920 -> 01:03:59.600] or in any other domain in life, I just
[01:03:58.080 -> 01:04:02.080] thought it was incredible.
[01:03:59.600 -> 01:04:04.480] It sounds like, it looks like, it feels
[01:04:02.080 -> 01:04:07.440] like, that is the sort of area where I have
[01:04:04.480 -> 01:04:10.280] really, I've sort of, considering the job I do, I actually aren't, I'm not actually great at
[01:04:10.280 -> 01:04:14.720] negotiating and having business conversations and working things out
[01:04:14.720 -> 01:04:18.400] with people. You know, I love like a, I love a conversation with someone who's
[01:04:18.400 -> 01:04:22.920] got a bit of an issue and I can help them with it. I hate a conversation where
[01:04:22.920 -> 01:04:28.040] there's a bit of confrontation or me and the other person differ in some way and I need to pick up
[01:04:28.040 -> 01:04:31.080] the phone and have that chat with them. And I think that the big thing that
[01:04:31.080 -> 01:04:35.000] I've learned from that, from my perspective, is that immediately
[01:04:35.000 -> 01:04:39.600] disarming the other person with, look, you can say no at any time but this is what
[01:04:39.600 -> 01:04:44.520] I'm thinking. Or you're gonna hate this conversation. Look Damien, this is
[01:04:44.520 -> 01:04:46.000] gonna be the shittest moment of your week.
[01:04:46.000 -> 01:04:48.000] Can I just talk to you about something?
[01:04:48.000 -> 01:04:50.000] That's actually a really good technique.
[01:04:50.000 -> 01:04:53.000] I hate the thought of saying it, like even now being so English,
[01:04:53.000 -> 01:04:54.000] I still cringe a bit about it,
[01:04:54.000 -> 01:04:57.000] but then I know that the impact actually will be useful.
[01:04:57.000 -> 01:05:01.000] Yeah, and I think he uses a line in his book that he says that
[01:05:01.000 -> 01:05:03.000] empathy saves us time.
[01:05:03.000 -> 01:05:07.840] And I think sometimes when we can come at it with those statements yn ei llyfr y dywedodd ei fod yn gau amser i ni'r ymdrechion, ac rwy'n credu ychydig amser pan fyddwn yn gallu mynd ati gyda'r adroddiadau y gafodd eich ddweud o'r
[01:05:07.840 -> 01:05:12.320] ddwylo, mae'n teimlo fel, mae'n ddweud fel, mae'n ddewis fel, rwy'n credu y bydd y
[01:05:12.320 -> 01:05:16.720] ymdrechion yn ein galluogi i'n gysylltu ar y lefel dynol i dynol ac yn ein galluogi i
[01:05:16.720 -> 01:05:20.480] weithio'n gilydd yn ymwneud ag, fel y dweudodd, gweld byd fel
[01:05:20.480 -> 01:05:24.720] gêm o'r ddau, sy'n golygu ein bod ni'n, mae'r holl beth yn dweud y bydd
[01:05:24.720 -> 01:05:26.000] un o'n i ar un o'n i yn byw'r byd cyfanneud ychydig o chwaraeon, yw'n golygu bod ni, mae'r holl ddweud yw bod un i un
[01:05:26.000 -> 01:05:28.000] yn byw'r holl byd yn glir,
[01:05:28.000 -> 01:05:29.000] ond mae'n dweud,
[01:05:29.000 -> 01:05:30.000] dwi'n meddwl sut y gallwn ni
[01:05:30.000 -> 01:05:31.000] ein hymdrech eich un,
[01:05:31.000 -> 01:05:32.000] sut y gallwn ni weithio'n gilydd,
[01:05:32.000 -> 01:05:34.000] felly rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ddau
[01:05:34.000 -> 01:05:35.000] yn ymlaen o hyn,
[01:05:35.000 -> 01:05:36.000] yn teimlo'n well arno.
[01:05:36.000 -> 01:05:38.000] Rydw i hefyd wedi trinio amser byth
[01:05:38.000 -> 01:05:39.000] o'r ffyrdd,
[01:05:39.000 -> 01:05:40.000] yn edrych yn ddifrif
[01:05:40.000 -> 01:05:41.000] ar y carrera y mae Oprah Winfrey
[01:05:41.000 -> 01:05:42.000] yn ei gael,
[01:05:42.000 -> 01:05:43.000] ac yn meddwl,
[01:05:43.000 -> 01:05:44.000] sut mae gael
[01:05:44.000 -> 01:05:48.040] y math o wybodaeth o'r person hwnnw. Rwy'n credu pa mor anhygoel am Oprah that Oprah Winfrey has and thinking how, how has she got that amount of information out of that person? I think what's amazing about Oprah is that she
[01:05:48.040 -> 01:05:52.360] gets people to say things that they would never normally say on a live
[01:05:52.360 -> 01:05:56.400] television show in front of an audience of hundreds of people and she does it in
[01:05:56.400 -> 01:05:59.920] a really nice way and I've never really understood it but after the things that
[01:05:59.920 -> 01:06:03.480] we discussed with Chris I'm gonna, I'm going straight on the internet watching
[01:06:03.480 -> 01:06:06.720] some Oprah interviews and picking up some tricks, you know? y byddwn ni'n sôn gyda Chris, rydw i'n mynd yn ystyr y dde, ar wyliau Oprah a chyfieithu rhai ddwyloedd, gwybod.
[01:06:06.720 -> 01:06:11.520] Ie, rwy'n meddwl, rwy'n meddwl ei fod yn ddiddorol, rwy'n gweld y ddiddorol yn ddiweddar
[01:06:11.520 -> 01:06:15.680] gyda prince Harry a'i ffro, lle roedd ganddyn nhw'n defnyddio'r cyfieithu, ac rwy'n credu
[01:06:16.400 -> 01:06:19.360] pan dwi'n meddwl yn ôl i hyn, roedd y momentau o'r ymddygiad, lle roedd hi'n
[01:06:19.360 -> 01:06:22.080] dim yn dweud unrhyw beth, roedd hi'n gwneud iddo gwybod
[01:06:22.080 -> 01:06:48.640] fod yn teimlo'r hyn roeddent a'r cydweithwyr, a'r cyfansoddau a'r cydweithwyr, a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansoddau a'r cyfansodd Now, thank you, Jake. The pleasure is mine. I'm really pleased to say for the second time on High Performance, we welcome a High Performance
[01:06:48.640 -> 01:06:51.720] listener to the conversation. Damon Pearce. Hi, Damon.
[01:06:51.720 -> 01:06:53.720] Hi, Jake. How's it going? Hi, Damon.
[01:06:53.720 -> 01:06:54.720] Hi, Damon.
[01:06:54.720 -> 01:06:59.280] So look, rather than me explaining your story, maybe you would like to just sort of share
[01:06:59.280 -> 01:07:03.280] with us the information that you sent us and the reason why we decided to get you on here
[01:07:03.280 -> 01:07:04.280] to speak to our listeners.
[01:07:04.280 -> 01:07:07.600] Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's to be honest, this is all kind of happened since the pandemic really.
[01:07:07.600 -> 01:07:13.200] So that the last year has just been insane to be honest, just not for my benefit, but everyone else's.
[01:07:13.200 -> 01:07:18.880] But I probably went through quite a bit of a traumatic period from those last 12 months.
[01:07:18.880 -> 01:07:25.440] So I went through a bad breakup. I had eye surgery, actually. I had someone kind of scam me out of
[01:07:25.440 -> 01:07:30.160] a load of money as well, which was not cool as well. And then I basically, I think it was like
[01:07:30.160 -> 01:07:36.720] April, 2021, I suffered a bit of a nervous breakdown and it was basically my whole life
[01:07:36.720 -> 01:07:40.720] just went completely downhill. It was terrible. It was just like, I couldn't find a way to get out.
[01:07:40.720 -> 01:07:48.480] And the one thing that's really helped me so much, so this is two months later, but your podcast has just helped me so much, like day by day, just getting myself
[01:07:48.480 -> 01:07:53.560] better and wanting to try and get my life back on track, like doing more of my music
[01:07:53.560 -> 01:07:58.600] work, doing more of my football work. And there's so many lessons I've learned through
[01:07:58.600 -> 01:08:03.880] that time and period of like how it's helped me as a person and even better as a person.
[01:08:03.880 -> 01:08:07.960] The most amazing one that sort of helped me was Johnny Wilkinson's one, to be honest,
[01:08:07.960 -> 01:08:13.360] because it's like, as I was working as a tour manager in music, I was always thinking like,
[01:08:13.360 -> 01:08:16.360] oh, the next time I've got to kind of think forward, got to think to the next day, the
[01:08:16.360 -> 01:08:17.800] next day.
[01:08:17.800 -> 01:08:24.560] And then his kind of thing, without not having that work at all, I sort of had to live in
[01:08:24.560 -> 01:08:25.680] this like live in the moment
[01:08:26.240 -> 01:08:30.720] mindset, which I've never, ever, ever done. And it's quite hard for me to get used to.
[01:08:31.600 -> 01:08:38.160] And for me to kind of use that as a philosophy and like, there's so many other podcasts that
[01:08:38.160 -> 01:08:42.480] have kind of helped me just sort of, it's, I don't know, like, where it's heading in my life,
[01:08:42.480 -> 01:08:47.560] but I know it's building to something that it's going to help to help other people, if that makes sense.
[01:08:47.560 -> 01:08:54.480] But yeah, it's, it's like day by day, I'm still not like a hundred percent myself, but
[01:08:54.480 -> 01:09:00.680] like I know day by day, if I sort of put the work in and just take full responsibility
[01:09:00.680 -> 01:09:04.600] of what I'm feeling, then eventually I'll get to the point where I want to be, if that
[01:09:04.600 -> 01:09:05.400] makes sense. And what advice would you give Damon to people who, eventually I'll get to the point where I want to be, if that makes sense.
[01:09:05.400 -> 01:09:09.920] And what advice would you give Damon to people who, um, who might be new to the High Performance
[01:09:09.920 -> 01:09:13.420] Podcast and they're not sure how to use it. Like I'm sort of interested really, do you
[01:09:13.420 -> 01:09:17.640] just listen when the episodes come out? Do you go back and re-listen? Do you take notes?
[01:09:17.640 -> 01:09:20.720] How, how do you use it to help change your life?
[01:09:20.720 -> 01:09:26.400] Uh, it's so weird, like, cause I'm a massive podcast fan, but your one literally
[01:09:26.400 -> 01:09:33.520] speaks to me like no other else has done. I listen to it like week by week, so whoever you've got on
[01:09:33.520 -> 01:09:38.000] the Monday, the Wednesday, like I firmly like think, oh, I'm going to get something from this
[01:09:38.000 -> 01:09:43.280] little ones. But there's always a few favorites of mine where I've gone back to listen to it a few,
[01:09:43.280 -> 01:09:45.040] two or three times, for instance,
[01:09:45.040 -> 01:09:48.240] like Matthew McConaughey's a massive, a massive one for me as well.
[01:09:48.240 -> 01:09:51.800] And like hearing that, like I've gone back to being like, Oh, because I read his book
[01:09:51.800 -> 01:09:54.920] recently and going back to his, it's just like, Oh, I've heard that.
[01:09:54.920 -> 01:09:58.200] Like there's another bit I've got that I didn't get from before.
[01:09:58.200 -> 01:10:02.120] And Kelly Jones as well from the Stereophonics, I'm a massive Stereophonics fan as well.
[01:10:02.120 -> 01:10:04.600] So that's, that's a massive one for me to go back to as well.
[01:10:04.600 -> 01:10:09.200] And has there been any surprises in any of the ones you've listened to Damon?
[01:10:09.200 -> 01:10:12.040] Yeah, like Stephen Bartlett was pretty interesting.
[01:10:12.040 -> 01:10:14.000] I never heard of him before with hearing yours.
[01:10:14.000 -> 01:10:15.000] Holly Tucker as well.
[01:10:15.000 -> 01:10:17.800] Michelle Moan as well.
[01:10:17.800 -> 01:10:24.280] That sort of, that one was like, I have no sort of business expertise in my own mind,
[01:10:24.280 -> 01:10:25.060] but that actually made me
[01:10:25.060 -> 01:10:27.060] want to think about maybe starting up an own business.
[01:10:27.060 -> 01:10:30.360] But I just can't thank you guys enough for like what you've brought to like, not just
[01:10:30.360 -> 01:10:33.660] for my life, but I'm sure you're helping so many other people's lives out there as well.
[01:10:33.660 -> 01:10:39.080] And it's been a massive thing for me, like for my health, like wanting to like feel better
[01:10:39.080 -> 01:10:40.080] in myself.
[01:10:40.080 -> 01:10:43.020] And it's actually knowing that there are tools.
[01:10:43.020 -> 01:10:45.360] So if like, for instance, when I had sort of my breakdown thing,
[01:10:45.360 -> 01:10:50.160] I forgot how to do certain things and like the simplest of things, but hearing your words
[01:10:50.960 -> 01:10:55.360] is kind of helped me for what I do know this kind of stuff. It's like, it's, it's just, it's,
[01:10:55.360 -> 01:11:00.560] it's so simple when you think about it. It's not like, as long as I'm treating people, right. And
[01:11:00.560 -> 01:11:06.160] I'm doing the right thing and I'm putting the work in that that's day by day, I'll get to a point where I want to be.
[01:11:06.160 -> 01:11:10.800] So that sounds like you're starting to quote your non-negotiables there, Damon.
[01:11:10.800 -> 01:11:11.800] So what are they?
[01:11:11.800 -> 01:11:13.800] What are your three?
[01:11:13.800 -> 01:11:18.320] Kindness, integrity as well.
[01:11:18.320 -> 01:11:22.920] And it kind of probably is the same, like just being the general around all good person.
[01:11:22.920 -> 01:11:29.200] I think if you do good things, then good things will happen to you, really. Yeah, I'd say them. Brilliant. Lovely.
[01:11:29.200 -> 01:11:33.600] Sounds like you're perfect for the Hal Robson Carney podcast from last week, were you?
[01:11:33.600 -> 01:11:37.280] Yeah, I checked that. That was amazing. That was, yeah, really good.
[01:11:37.280 -> 01:11:42.880] Well, look, mate, thank you so much for coming on and having a quick chat with us. And honestly,
[01:11:42.880 -> 01:11:45.080] it means the world to Damien and I that, you know,
[01:11:45.080 -> 01:11:48.960] we can have these kinds of conversations and we get to genuinely see the difference that we're making.
[01:11:48.960 -> 01:11:50.520] So thanks for listening.
[01:11:50.520 -> 01:11:52.280] Thanks for subscribing to the circle.
[01:11:52.280 -> 01:11:53.280] Thanks for ordering the book.
[01:11:53.280 -> 01:11:59.000] Thanks for just sort of absolutely investing and, you know, like everything else in life, the more you put in, the more you get out, right?
[01:11:59.000 -> 01:11:59.880] So thank you, man.
[01:11:59.880 -> 01:12:00.400] No problem.
[01:12:00.400 -> 01:12:00.960] Thanks, guys.
[01:12:04.680 -> 01:12:07.440] Hey, I love those conversations, Damien. Love them.
[01:12:07.600 -> 01:12:08.880] Yeah. Fantastic, aren't they?
[01:12:08.960 -> 01:12:12.760] I think again, it's a validation of why we do this stuff.
[01:12:12.800 -> 01:12:17.800] It gives us a real buzz that people are hearing these conversations and being able to
[01:12:17.800 -> 01:12:19.240] apply them in their own lives.
[01:12:19.360 -> 01:12:23.760] I think the important thing is that we live in an era where this sort of stuff gets
[01:12:23.760 -> 01:12:24.800] talked about quite a bit.
[01:12:24.920 -> 01:12:25.080] So I think the key is not just to listen to the high performance podcast, but to really thing is that we live in an era where this sort of stuff gets talked about quite a bit.
[01:12:25.080 -> 01:12:29.120] So I think the key is not just to listen to the high performance podcast, but to really
[01:12:29.120 -> 01:12:33.320] like to make it work for you. Do you know what I mean? So I mean, you and I, I have
[01:12:33.320 -> 01:12:36.440] what I do, obviously we do the interviews and then I'll have a listen back to them before
[01:12:36.440 -> 01:12:40.960] we put them out. But then I'll also wait a while and then go back in. In fact, I did
[01:12:40.960 -> 01:13:06.000] it with Matthew McConaughey this week, i gyd, i gyd, i gyd, i gyd, i gyd, i gyd, i gyd, i gyd, i ein bod ni wedi cwrdd â'r cyfrifiad yma, a oedd rhai o'r cyfrofwyddion
[01:13:06.000 -> 01:13:08.000] sy'n dod yn ddiweddarach o'r prinsupau
[01:13:08.000 -> 01:13:10.000] y maen nhw'n cael yn eu bywydau.
[01:13:10.000 -> 01:13:12.000] Ac roedd hynny'n ddiddorol i mi,
[01:13:12.000 -> 01:13:14.000] y syniad o ddod â rhai o'r prinsupau hyn
[01:13:14.000 -> 01:13:16.000] a gweithio allan, y gallwch chi
[01:13:16.000 -> 01:13:18.000] ymdrechu a chyflwyno
[01:13:18.000 -> 01:13:20.000] yn eich bywyd eich hun, fel
[01:13:20.000 -> 01:13:22.000] y person rydyn ni'n cyfrifiad yn dweud,
[01:13:22.000 -> 01:13:27.640] ei prinsup gyntaf oedd, ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ddim ond ei gyfranogwyr cyntaf oedd, dim ond neidio i fod yn gwrth. Ac mae hynny'n cynnwys llawer o ddiddorol
[01:13:27.640 -> 01:13:28.960] mewn nifer o ffyrdd gwahanol.
[01:13:28.960 -> 01:13:30.960] Felly ie, unwaith eto,
[01:13:30.960 -> 01:13:33.080] pe bai chi'n dysgu'r peth hwn,
[01:13:33.080 -> 01:13:35.080] dydy'r peth hwn ddim yn gallu gwneud unrhyw ddiddorol.
[01:13:35.080 -> 01:13:37.160] Gadewch i ni siarad yn gyflym iawn am y clywed,
[01:13:37.160 -> 01:13:39.960] oherwydd gallant ein helpu ni wir yn y moment.
[01:13:39.960 -> 01:13:41.000] Felly os ydych chi'n clywed hynny
[01:13:41.000 -> 01:13:43.480] ac y gallwch chi ni'n argymhell 30 eiliad,
[01:13:43.480 -> 01:13:44.600] byddwn ni'n mor ddiolchfeydd.
[01:13:44.600 -> 01:13:47.880] Fel y gwyddwch, mae'n mynd i'n ffyrdd yn ystod y blynyddoedd because they can really help us out actually at the moment. So if you're listening to this and you can spare us 30 seconds we would be so grateful. As
[01:13:47.880 -> 01:13:52.320] you know coming our way very soon is the British Podcast Awards and we are
[01:13:52.320 -> 01:13:56.920] nominated for Best Sports Podcast which is amazing and means a lot to us but we
[01:13:56.920 -> 01:14:03.120] are also in the listeners choice vote. So this is a public vote where fans of any
[01:14:03.120 -> 01:14:05.160] podcast can vote. You only get one
[01:14:05.160 -> 01:14:10.220] vote so we are basically asking if you can vote for us aren't we Damien?
[01:14:10.220 -> 01:14:15.720] Yeah yeah vote once and hopefully put the X next to our name.
[01:14:15.720 -> 01:14:20.960] All you have to do is go to BritishPodcastAwards.com forward slash vote
[01:14:20.960 -> 01:14:28.400] so it's nice and easy that's BritishPodcastAwards.com forward slash vote. There you'll get the easy. That's British podcast awards dot com forward slash vote. Uh, there you'll get the choices. You can vote
[01:14:28.400 -> 01:14:31.400] for the high performance podcast and you need to do it by Sunday. So get
[01:14:31.400 -> 01:14:35.800] going now. But honestly, because like these things always matter even more.
[01:14:35.900 -> 01:14:37.840] Don't know, Damian, when it's the listeners choice, when people have
[01:14:37.840 -> 01:14:40.880] actually taken the time to vote. I'm not saying we don't want to win best
[01:14:40.880 -> 01:14:43.700] sports podcast because I'm sure there's an esteemed panel that's making that
[01:14:43.700 -> 01:14:47.520] decision. But I would really love to win the listeners choice. Yeah, ddim eisiau gwyn y podcast y mwyaf hyfforddiol, oherwydd rwy'n siŵr bod panel ystyr y gwneud y penderfyniad honno, ond byddwn yn hoffi gwyn y penderfyniad.
[01:14:47.520 -> 01:14:58.000] Ie, yn unig, mae'n mynd yn ôl i ddweud i Damon yma, a dywedon ni ychydig ffyrdd, mae'n ddifrifol iawn bod pobl yn edrych ar hyn a'i ddod o'n ddefnyddiol,
[01:14:58.000 -> 01:15:08.040] oherwydd dyna'r drifo ganddi ar gyfer ni, nid dim ond am ymdrechion, mae'n ymwneud â phobl yn'n teimlo eu bod yn gallu eu defnyddio yn eu bywydau eu hunain. Felly os oes unrhyw un yn teimlo bod hynny'n ymwneud â hynny,
[01:15:08.040 -> 01:15:10.320] bydd eu cymorth yn ddiolchgar iawn.
[01:15:10.320 -> 01:15:11.160] Ydy, dydyn ni?
[01:15:11.160 -> 01:15:13.080] Ac wrth gwrs, gallwch gysylltu â'r llyfr higlifoedig
[01:15:13.080 -> 01:15:14.800] yn y gysylltiad â'r podcast hon.
[01:15:14.800 -> 01:15:17.920] Gallwch ei wneud hefyd ar thehighperformancepodcast.com
[01:15:17.920 -> 01:15:21.280] ac mae hynny hefyd ym mhobl sy'n gallu ymuno â'n club o aelodau
[01:15:21.280 -> 01:15:23.400] sy'n llwyr i fod yn aelod.
[01:15:23.400 -> 01:15:24.760] Mae'n ei enw'r cyfnod higlifoedig.
[01:15:24.760 -> 01:15:28.240] Rydyn ni wedi dod o'n gwrthd Performance Circle. We've just dropped a brilliant Hamish de Breton Gordon
[01:15:28.240 -> 01:15:33.440] conversation about mindset in conflict zones. Ben Saunders talks to us about
[01:15:33.440 -> 01:15:37.800] self-belief being like a muscle. You will hear the most amazing podcast from Rick
[01:15:37.800 -> 01:15:42.720] Lewis and Kath Bishop, former athlete, delivers a brilliant keynote speech
[01:15:42.720 -> 01:15:48.600] about winning. So if you want to sign up for the High Performance Circle, go to thehighperformancepodcast.com
[01:15:48.600 -> 01:15:52.560] and then click the link for the circle, you'll get an invite and you're in.
[01:15:52.560 -> 01:15:54.600] Damian, thanks ever so much, mate.
[01:15:54.600 -> 01:15:55.600] Thanks, Jake, loved it.
[01:15:55.600 -> 01:16:00.880] As always, don't forget we've got an amazing episode as well coming your way on Wednesday.
[01:16:00.880 -> 01:16:04.600] Get ready for that one from our Euro 2020 special. But for now, from myself,
[01:16:04.600 -> 01:16:09.020] from Damian Hughes, from Finn Ryan at Rethink Audio, from Will and
[01:16:09.020 -> 01:16:12.240] Hannah and all the team that work on the High Performance Podcast, thank you so
[01:16:12.240 -> 01:16:39.040] much, have a brilliant week and we'll see you soon. the world.
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[01:16:48.360 -> 01:16:49.600] with digital coupons.
[01:16:49.600 -> 01:16:53.000] Plus you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump.
[01:16:53.000 -> 01:16:54.880] So it's easy to save big.
[01:16:54.880 -> 01:16:56.920] Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone.
[01:16:56.920 -> 01:16:57.920] Savings may vary by state.
[01:16:57.920 -> 01:16:58.920] Fuel restrictions apply.
[01:16:58.920 -> 01:17:02.160] We've locked in low prices to help you save big store wide.
[01:17:02.160 -> 01:17:06.400] Look for the locked in low prices tags and enjoy extra savings throughout the store.
[01:17:06.400 -> 01:17:08.200] Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone.
[01:17:04.790 -> 01:17:06.790] to help you save big storewide.
[01:17:06.790 -> 01:17:08.590] Look for the locked in low prices tags
[01:17:08.590 -> 01:17:10.890] and enjoy extra savings throughout the store.
[01:17:10.890 -> 01:17:13.590] Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone.