E47 - Evelyn Glennie: How to take responsibility, not search for blame

Dame Evelyn Glennie is the world’s premier solo percussionist, performing worldwide with the greatest orchestras, conductors and artists. 

Evelyn was eight when she started to lose her hearing, and 12 when she was diagnosed as profoundly deaf. But in her own words “losing my hearing made has made me a better listener and musician”.

Evelyn is a double GRAMMY award winner and BAFTA nominee and was awarded an OBE in 1993. She has over 100 international awards to date, including the Polar Music Prize and the Companion of Honour. 

A big thanks to our founding partners Lotus Cars. Remember, you can get extended episodes of the podcast on our YouTube channel bit.ly/HPPYouTube and follow us on Instagram @highperformance.

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Sure, here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript, organized into sections and headers, with key points, evidence, conclusions, and arguments:

**Section 1: Introduction**
- The episode features Dame Evelyn Glennie, a world-renowned solo percussionist who has overcome deafness to achieve great success.
- Despite losing her hearing at a young age, Glennie pursued her passion for music and became a professional percussionist.
- She has won numerous awards, including two Grammy Awards and a BAFTA nomination, and was appointed a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire (DBE) in 1993.

**Section 2: High Performance**
- Glennie defines high performance as a journey that involves revisiting and reengaging with the question.
- She emphasizes the importance of stubbornness and knowing what you want to do in life.
- Glennie believes that everyone has a story to tell and that every person should be valued for their unique contributions.

**Section 3: Overcoming Challenges**
- Glennie faced numerous challenges due to her hearing loss, including being encouraged to attend a school for the deaf and being told that there was no repertoire for solo percussionists.
- She refused to let these challenges define her and instead focused on developing her skills and creating her repertoire.
- Glennie credits her upbringing and the support of her family and teachers for helping her overcome these obstacles.

**Section 4: Reframing Music**
- Glennie challenges the idea that music is about hearing and argues that it is actually about listening.
- She discovered that she could feel the vibrations of music through her body and that this allowed her to connect with the music on a deeper level.
- Glennie's unique approach to music has inspired many people and helped to change the way that people think about music and deafness.

**Section 5: The Importance of Support**
- Glennie emphasizes the importance of having people around you who see things differently and who believe in you.
- She credits her percussion teacher for helping her to discover her unique way of listening to music.
- Glennie also acknowledges the role that her family and friends played in supporting her throughout her career.

**Section 6: Mindset and Determination**
- Glennie believes that a strong mindset and determination are essential for success.
- She refused to let her deafness hold her back and instead focused on her goals and ambitions.
- Glennie emphasizes the importance of simplifying goals and aims and not taking anything for granted.

**Section 7: Conclusion**
- Glennie's story is an inspiration to anyone who has ever faced challenges in their life.
- She demonstrates that it is possible to overcome adversity and achieve great things with hard work, determination, and the support of others.
- Glennie's message is that everyone has a story to tell and that everyone should be valued for their unique contributions.

**Overall, the podcast episode provides valuable insights into the life and career of Dame Evelyn Glennie, a remarkable musician who has overcome deafness to achieve great success. Her story is a testament to the power of perseverance, determination, and the importance of having a strong support system.**

## Summary of the Podcast Episode: High Performance Podcast with Evelyn Glennie

### Introduction:

* Evelyn Glennie, the world's premier solo percussionist, shares her journey of overcoming deafness and achieving remarkable success in the music industry.


### Key Points:

#### 1. Maintaining Goals and Adapting Strategies:

* Evelyn's goals have remained consistent throughout her career, focusing on solo percussion and creating new music.
* However, her approach has changed over time, with a greater emphasis on careful consideration and time management.
* She now prioritizes saying "no" to projects that don't align with her values or goals.


#### 2. Nurturing Passion and Identifying Opportunities:

* Evelyn emphasizes the importance of exposing children to a variety of experiences to help them discover their passions.
* She believes that parents should pay attention to children's interests and provide opportunities for them to explore and develop their talents.


#### 3. Building Blocks of Success:

* Evelyn highlights the significance of building blocks in achieving success.
* She views every milestone, from holding her first solo CD to playing for children, as important steps in her journey.
* She emphasizes the value of planting seeds and nurturing growth over time.


#### 4. Sustaining Drive and Ambition:

* Evelyn's unwavering focus on her goal of becoming a solo percussionist helped her navigate the challenges of moving to London and facing perceptions about her capabilities.
* She maintained a singular focus on achieving her degree and establishing herself as a solo percussionist.


#### 5. Openness to Feedback and Honesty:

* Evelyn acknowledges that she received limited feedback as a solo percussionist, relying primarily on newspaper reviews and her own gut instinct.
* She emphasizes the importance of being honest with oneself and using feedback to identify areas for improvement.
* She believes that openness to learning and a willingness to adapt are crucial for growth.


#### 6. Becoming a World-Class Listener:

* Evelyn emphasizes that world-class listening is a skill that everyone possesses and can develop.
* She encourages individuals to practice active listening in everyday situations, such as deciding what to have for breakfast or how to allocate their time.
* She suggests breaking down tasks into 20-minute periods to maintain focus and achieve productivity.


#### 7. Non-Negotiable Behaviours for Success:

* Evelyn identifies three non-negotiable behaviors for herself and those around her:
* Understanding of time and patience.
* Recognizing the emotional highs and lows of the journey.
* Prioritizing self-care and well-being.


#### 8. Advice to a Teenage Evelyn:

* Evelyn advises teenagers to listen to themselves, identify their passions, and ask key questions about what makes them tick and what they want to achieve.
* She encourages self-reflection and taking the time to allow answers to form.


#### 9. Legacy and Springboard for the Future:

* Evelyn believes that legacy is crucial as a springboard for the future.
* She sees it as a mark in history and a platform for others to build upon and push boundaries.
* She hopes that her legacy will inspire others to achieve more and make a positive impact on the world.


#### 10. Golden Rule for a High-Performance Life:

* Evelyn's golden rule for living a high-performance life is to maintain an open mind and avoid becoming stuck in a particular way of doing things.
* She emphasizes the importance of resilience, keeping goals clear, and embracing unexpected pathways on the journey.


### Conclusion:

* The podcast highlights Evelyn Glennie's remarkable journey of overcoming deafness and achieving success as a solo percussionist.
* It emphasizes the significance of maintaining focus, adapting strategies, and embracing challenges.
* Evelyn's insights on listening, self-awareness, and legacy provide valuable lessons for anyone seeking to achieve high performance in their lives.

[00:00.000 -> 00:06.240] Hi there, welcome along to an extra episode from the High Performance Podcast this week.
[00:06.240 -> 00:10.100] People said they wanted more, so we decided to give them exactly that. And you're about
[00:10.100 -> 00:16.200] to hear an episode that Damien and I recorded a few months ago over Zoom, because it was
[00:16.200 -> 00:20.760] during the coronavirus pandemic, but with a lady who is the absolute epitome of taking
[00:20.760 -> 00:25.680] responsibility for her life, rather than looking for fault and for blame.
[00:25.680 -> 00:30.440] Thank you as always to you for getting involved. I can't tell you enough how important it is
[00:30.440 -> 00:34.760] for you to rate and review the High Performance Podcast. Find us on Instagram, find us on
[00:34.760 -> 00:41.060] YouTube, join our community, but most of all, just enjoy and learn from this week's High
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[03:28.320 -> 03:33.200] Hi, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance, the podcast that
[03:33.200 -> 03:36.800] delves into the minds of some of the most successful athletes, visionaries,
[03:36.800 -> 03:41.520] entrepreneurs and artists on the planet and aims to unlock the very secrets to
[03:41.520 -> 03:46.240] their success. As ever, I'm not alone. Our resident professor and author Damien yn ymladd â'r ymddygiadau ynghylch eu cymorth. Fel arall, dwi ddim yn unig. Efallai y byddwn ni'n siarad â rhywun
[03:46.240 -> 03:48.080] rydyn ni'n ddod o'r gwrthdysg
[03:48.080 -> 03:49.480] a byddwn ni'n gwrthdysg
[03:49.480 -> 03:52.480] yn y cyfan mwyaf, Damien.
[03:52.480 -> 03:53.440] Yn wir, Jake.
[03:53.440 -> 03:57.400] Rwy'n mwynhau'r cyfrifiad hwnnw.
[03:57.400 -> 04:00.120] Rwy'n credu, dros y ddau ffyrdd,
[04:00.120 -> 04:00.960] rydyn ni wedi bod yn ddod o'r gwrthdysg
[04:00.960 -> 04:01.760] i gyfrifiad â phobl
[04:01.760 -> 04:03.640] sydd wedi bod yn perfformiadau cyhoeddi
[04:03.640 -> 04:04.720] yn eu sefydliadu eu hunain,
[04:04.720 -> 04:10.320] ond dyda ni'n cyflawni rhywun sy'n newid y gêm arbennig mewn eu ffyrdd, ac rwy'n
[04:10.320 -> 04:15.440] mwynhau i ymdrechu y broses o sut rydych chi'n mynd i newid y gêm.
[04:15.440 -> 04:19.520] Iawn, gadewch i ni ei wneud yna. Gadewch i ni gydnabod y pod, un o'r pêl-dyniaid mwyaf
[04:19.520 -> 04:23.040] o gwmpas y byd. Fe wnaeth fy nghyfrifwr eisoes ddarlith am ffyrdd o gyfnodau pêl-dyniaid
[04:23.040 -> 04:25.280] pan ddechreuodd ei chael ei chael. A byddai'r mwyaf o bobl yn credu, efallai, musicians I guessed already had a love for music when she started to lose her hearing and most
[04:25.280 -> 04:30.800] people would perhaps believe that deafness is a barrier to a music career but not this lady.
[04:30.800 -> 04:36.160] She pursued the dream, she overcame challenges, she changed the minds of the doubters, she won
[04:36.160 -> 04:41.920] Grammys, she wrote books, she toured the world and now she joins us. What an absolute pleasure
[04:41.920 -> 04:48.240] it is to welcome to the High Performance Podcast Dame Evelyn Glennie. Evelyn, thank you so much for taking the time.
[04:48.240 -> 04:51.220] Evelyn Glennie Thank you, Jake. Thank you, Damien. It's a pleasure.
[04:51.220 -> 04:56.040] Jake Martin Now let's start as we always do. What is high performance?
[04:56.040 -> 05:05.520] Evelyn Glennie Goodness me. You know, I think rather like a piece of music, you're always revisiting and reengaging that question.
[05:05.720 -> 05:11.760] I you know, for me, I feel there's a lot of stubbornness going on in there.
[05:11.960 -> 05:14.760] I think that what I have benefited from
[05:14.960 -> 05:19.440] from a fairly early age is knowing what I've wanted to do.
[05:19.640 -> 05:24.960] So, you know, at school, I knew that music was an important part of my life.
[05:25.000 -> 05:25.200] I didn't know that that would actually form So, you know, at school, I knew that music was an important part of my life.
[05:30.400 -> 05:30.600] I didn't know that that would actually form into being my professional life.
[05:36.280 -> 05:36.480] But nevertheless, it was hugely important to have the opportunities at school
[05:43.400 -> 05:43.600] to explore this particular subject without any pressures of having to be the best
[05:46.480 -> 05:48.800] or having to pass certain exams or be seen in a certain kind of way.
[05:48.800 -> 05:51.280] This was all about discovery.
[05:51.280 -> 05:54.680] And I went to a secondary school just north of Aberdeen
[05:54.680 -> 05:57.080] that was all about the fact
[05:57.080 -> 06:00.880] that every child has a story to tell.
[06:00.880 -> 06:16.000] And that story could be a passion towards cooking or passion towards being a plumber or sports or debating or maths or science or telling a story or music, whatever it might be.
[06:16.000 -> 06:26.440] But every single person it was believed had a story and that meant that every person was valued. And I think that that's a really key
[06:26.640 -> 06:31.440] aspect because it allows you permission, you know, permission to be in every
[06:31.640 -> 06:35.360] department of the school. So for me, as a hearing impaired person,
[06:35.560 -> 06:39.960] you know, it could have very easily been the case for people to say, ah,
[06:39.960 -> 06:42.960] you can't hear, therefore, how on earth can you possibly be in the music
[06:43.160 -> 06:46.000] department, which is all about hearing and listening.
[06:46.200 -> 06:51.160] But actually, you know, even though I went through the audiology tests and all of
[06:51.360 -> 06:56.600] that kind of thing and encouraged to go to a school for the deaf where there's no
[06:56.800 -> 07:01.840] music and speaking was not the priority, it was about sign.
[07:02.040 -> 07:05.200] And my parents felt that, well, hold on a second.
[07:05.400 -> 07:09.640] You know, 30 minutes before going into the audiology room, you know,
[07:09.640 -> 07:11.440] she could play music. She enjoyed this.
[07:11.440 -> 07:12.200] She enjoyed that.
[07:12.200 -> 07:14.480] She had her pals at school and all sorts of things.
[07:14.680 -> 07:18.800] And then 30 minutes later, suddenly she isn't meant to be doing music.
[07:18.800 -> 07:20.400] She isn't meant to be communicating.
[07:20.400 -> 07:22.000] She isn't meant to be doing all sorts
[07:22.200 -> 07:29.940] of things because it fits in with that medical graph And I think that we have to remember that something like hearing is a medical condition
[07:29.940 -> 07:35.000] But listening is something that we all engage in so I was brought up in this environment
[07:35.280 -> 07:39.080] Whereby listening was a very key factor
[07:39.240 -> 07:44.760] so all of the staff at school valued every person who walked through the doors and
[07:44.920 -> 07:47.560] That meant that the school was set up
[07:47.760 -> 07:53.000] for it to be completely open to all individuals from the area.
[07:53.000 -> 07:55.040] So it didn't matter whether you were in a wheelchair,
[07:55.240 -> 07:58.600] whether you had other challenges, whether it's physical or mental,
[07:58.800 -> 08:04.400] or whether you were the next Einstein, you know, it was open to every single person.
[08:04.600 -> 08:06.240] So it was kitted with ramps.
[08:06.280 -> 08:10.760] The whole colour scheme of the classrooms and the corridors were
[08:10.960 -> 08:14.400] particularly chosen for people with sight impairment.
[08:14.720 -> 08:18.520] There were rooms that were geared up for people like myself that were more
[08:18.720 -> 08:21.200] audio friendly and so on and so forth.
[08:21.600 -> 08:25.920] So I suppose my whole upbringing was about being valued
[08:25.920 -> 08:29.320] and having permission to tell my story
[08:29.320 -> 08:31.660] and develop that story.
[08:31.660 -> 08:34.560] And once I made the decision at the age of 15
[08:34.560 -> 08:36.840] to be a solo percussionist,
[08:36.840 -> 08:38.680] and bear in mind that at school
[08:38.680 -> 08:40.800] and in the school concerts and so on,
[08:40.800 -> 08:42.920] you know, a lot of my friends and myself
[08:42.920 -> 08:45.000] gave little solos on percussion.
[08:48.440 -> 08:48.760] When I left school, I just thought the world was full of solo percussionists.
[08:53.320 -> 08:56.520] And it was only when I became a full time student in London and when I mentioned I wanted to be a solo percussionist, they thought I'd landed from Mars.
[08:56.520 -> 08:58.440] And they said, well, what is that?
[08:58.440 -> 09:01.480] You know, we don't know of any other solo percussionists.
[09:01.480 -> 09:02.960] Where's the repertoire?
[09:02.960 -> 09:04.400] You know, what are you going to play?
[09:01.800 -> 09:03.240] of any other solo percussionists, where's the repertoire?
[09:03.240 -> 09:04.600] What are you going to play?
[09:04.600 -> 09:08.280] Who's going to come to our concert on drums
[09:08.280 -> 09:10.860] and marimbas and timpani and so on?
[09:10.860 -> 09:13.280] And I felt, well, hold on a second,
[09:13.280 -> 09:15.040] I'm already thinking about it,
[09:15.040 -> 09:18.200] so it already exists.
[09:18.200 -> 09:20.000] And so when you think of something,
[09:20.000 -> 09:21.960] it's already happening.
[09:21.960 -> 09:24.800] And that was a very key thing.
[09:24.800 -> 09:27.000] So it wasn't as though, no, it hasn't happened. It is happening, it's already happening. And that was a very key thing. So it wasn't as though, no, it hasn't happened.
[09:27.000 -> 09:28.100] It is happening.
[09:28.100 -> 09:29.140] It's already happening.
[09:29.140 -> 09:32.880] It's happening in my mind through every part of my body.
[09:32.880 -> 09:35.440] So that's how I kind of go through life.
[09:35.440 -> 09:38.360] Wow, I mean, there's so much to unpack
[09:38.360 -> 09:43.360] in that statement there, Evelyn, that if you don't mind,
[09:43.680 -> 09:47.060] I think we could spend hours just exploring that.
[09:47.060 -> 09:53.800] If we could start back at the start then, so when you started to suffer from a
[09:53.800 -> 09:57.340] hearing loss, how old were you at that age?
[09:57.340 -> 10:02.900] Well I began losing my hearing from the age of eight and basically this was when
[10:02.900 -> 10:05.560] I was in primary school and I went to a tiny tiny
[10:05.560 -> 10:09.320] country primary school whereby there were only two teachers in the entire
[10:09.320 -> 10:14.160] school. There's something like 37 pupils in the whole school so it was very easy
[10:14.160 -> 10:21.680] for the teachers to basically detect any differences or subtleties, nuances and so
[10:21.680 -> 10:25.680] on with all of the pupils and they discovered basically
[10:25.680 -> 10:29.640] that just something wasn't quite right. I was missing out on conversations, I was
[10:29.640 -> 10:35.640] becoming more isolated in the playground or with pals, not picking things up in
[10:35.640 -> 10:40.800] the classroom and so on. And also in those days, once a year there was an
[10:40.800 -> 10:45.040] audiologist who came into the school to test all of the pupils' hearing.
[10:45.040 -> 10:51.360] And that was when she said, I think we need someone to maybe just check on Evelyn a bit more.
[10:51.360 -> 10:58.160] And so she invited me to go into Aberdeen Hospital and have more tests. And that was really the start.
[10:58.160 -> 11:06.040] But I think that the whole scenario and community of the North East is not to make a mountain out of a mole
[11:06.040 -> 11:11.220] hill and really they just felt that no we'll just carry on, carry on, you know,
[11:11.220 -> 11:15.560] and I was brought up in the farming community, I'm a farmer's daughter and so
[11:15.560 -> 11:19.640] I was never in a scenario where there were lots of crowds, that just wasn't the
[11:19.640 -> 11:26.280] situation I was in. And so I think that also the support group between what was going on
[11:26.280 -> 11:32.440] in school and in the family unit was really connected. And, you know, those were in the
[11:32.440 -> 11:37.080] days when the school spoke to families and just tell them, you know, exactly what was
[11:37.080 -> 11:41.000] going on. There was this kind of openness really. And that was actually really, really
[11:41.000 -> 11:45.680] crucial. So they could really, I suppose the link between the activities
[11:45.680 -> 11:52.000] going on in school and the home situation could really make sense. And thankfully, you
[11:52.000 -> 11:56.920] know, I had a fairly solid family unit, you know, I had a mum and a dad and two brothers
[11:56.920 -> 12:07.400] and all of that. And that actually is really important. And yeah, I just feel that in a way, when you're that age,
[12:07.400 -> 12:12.280] you don't think you're losing your hearing, you know, and your brain is still so elastic.
[12:12.480 -> 12:17.120] And so although, you know, I have very painful ears, I have to say,
[12:17.320 -> 12:21.160] whenever I went outside, you know, it was really, really, really sore.
[12:21.360 -> 12:23.640] And that made me stay indoors more.
[12:23.840 -> 12:26.240] But I was already playing the piano.
[12:26.240 -> 12:29.040] And so I enjoyed my own company.
[12:29.040 -> 12:37.520] I enjoyed being in a room with the piano and just, I suppose, being in that isolation.
[12:37.520 -> 12:40.200] But I didn't see it as though I'm alone or I'm lonely.
[12:40.200 -> 12:41.840] I didn't feel that at all.
[12:41.840 -> 12:45.120] But I think this was the start of, I suppose,
[12:46.160 -> 12:48.880] recognizing that I am quite happy by myself.
[12:48.880 -> 12:52.840] I am quite happy working through things by myself.
[12:52.840 -> 12:58.360] And I think that was really important because once the decision of being the solo percussionist happened,
[12:58.520 -> 13:05.080] you know, there's no internet or YouTube things that you could delve into. You had no role models as far as,
[13:05.080 -> 13:06.400] oh, well, they're doing it like that,
[13:06.400 -> 13:09.200] so I'll maybe do the same or something.
[13:09.200 -> 13:13.080] It was quite literally right now what?
[13:13.080 -> 13:15.080] How do I do this?
[13:15.080 -> 13:19.360] So for example, I remember thinking to myself,
[13:19.360 -> 13:21.840] well, look, there isn't an awful lot of repertoire
[13:21.840 -> 13:23.960] and definitely not enough repertoire
[13:23.960 -> 13:27.320] to sustain a career as a solo percussionist.
[13:27.520 -> 13:30.160] And I need to earn my living as a solo percussionist.
[13:30.160 -> 13:31.280] This is what I want to do.
[13:31.480 -> 13:33.400] So how do I get more repertoire?
[13:33.600 -> 13:39.160] And I thought, well, just write to composers and ask them to write a piece for you.
[13:39.160 -> 13:45.080] You know, so I basically wrote to hundreds of composers literally by hand
[13:45.280 -> 13:50.920] and because this was before email and and sure enough, I got a few responses,
[13:51.120 -> 13:52.400] which was very kind.
[13:52.600 -> 13:54.440] However, they said, yes, I'm happy to write
[13:54.640 -> 13:58.040] a piece and my fee is X, Y and Z. And I thought, fee?
[13:58.240 -> 14:00.040] What composers need pay?
[14:00.240 -> 14:02.320] So how am I going to get the money for this?
[14:02.520 -> 14:06.920] You know, and that basically, you know, took you down a vein or a path or
[14:06.920 -> 14:10.520] whatever you want to call it, into commissioning pieces of music.
[14:10.720 -> 14:12.440] You know, how do you do that?
[14:12.640 -> 14:16.760] And then things like, well, what sort of equipment should I buy?
[14:16.760 -> 14:20.840] Should I buy a triangle first or what's more important, a triangle or a tambourine?
[14:20.840 -> 14:24.240] Or should I buy a nice snare drum or should I buy a cymbal?
[14:24.240 -> 14:31.240] Or what is going to be most useful? Because patience is a big, big thing. And I think whether you're a sportsperson
[14:31.240 -> 14:39.080] or a musician or in so many other professions, patience is a key, key element. I think the
[14:39.080 -> 14:43.920] world we live in at the moment is very, no, we need it now, now, now. But actually, I
[14:43.920 -> 14:47.560] think to be a sportsperson where, sports person where you have to get up,
[14:47.760 -> 14:53.800] you have to improve an nth of a second, you know, to make that difference.
[14:54.000 -> 14:59.400] As a musician, to just add on another phrase of music or to just spend time
[14:59.600 -> 15:04.160] with linking that note to that note and finding a hundred different ways of doing
[15:06.080 -> 15:10.200] that note to that note and finding a hundred different ways of doing it needs time, you know, it definitely needs time and it needs a form of listening.
[15:10.200 -> 15:15.480] I suspect, Evelyn, that you said that you come from a farming community in the very
[15:15.480 -> 15:28.640] north of Scotland where you don't make mountains out of molehills. And your answer has evidently demonstrated that because you've so easily stepped over that threshold
[15:28.640 -> 15:31.840] of reframing the loss of hearing.
[15:31.840 -> 15:33.560] But I want to go back and explore it
[15:33.560 -> 15:38.300] because it does seem very unusual or quite profound
[15:38.300 -> 15:42.780] that you made that statement that music isn't about hearing,
[15:42.780 -> 15:44.720] it's about listening.
[15:44.720 -> 15:48.560] And one of the themes that we found when we've interviewed high performers on
[15:48.560 -> 15:52.000] this podcast is how they're able to reframe
[15:52.000 -> 15:56.640] experiences, whether it's a failure that they reframe as simply feedback
[15:56.640 -> 16:00.960] that they can learn from. Who helps you reframe music from
[16:00.960 -> 16:06.560] hearing to listening, because that seems quite a key moment in your story.
[16:06.560 -> 16:08.040] Absolutely it is.
[16:08.040 -> 16:12.480] And basically when I started percussion from the age of 12,
[16:12.480 -> 16:15.240] and by this time I was in secondary school,
[16:15.240 -> 16:19.200] so a much, much larger school with several hundred pupils.
[16:19.200 -> 16:22.720] And at that time I was wearing hearing aids
[16:22.720 -> 16:26.560] and I felt that all sound needed to come through the ears.
[16:26.560 -> 16:30.960] And what was happening was that it wasn't so much that I wasn't hearing sound,
[16:30.960 -> 16:34.000] I was hearing too much sound and it was really painful.
[16:34.000 -> 16:37.760] So I couldn't decipher the texture, the layers of sound,
[16:37.760 -> 16:41.120] and I couldn't decipher the direction of sound either.
[16:41.120 -> 16:46.120] So it was just this barrage of sound as though you were under water,
[16:46.120 -> 16:48.440] but it was just a massive, massive,
[16:48.440 -> 16:51.080] you know, sort of cave of sound.
[16:51.080 -> 16:53.160] But then when I took the hearing aids off,
[16:53.160 -> 16:55.480] it was almost as though it was a real relief.
[16:55.480 -> 16:58.800] So although you're hearing far, far less,
[16:58.800 -> 17:01.160] you know, you realise that actually,
[17:01.160 -> 17:03.320] oof, the body is responding to things.
[17:03.320 -> 17:06.520] And this first came about when my percussion teacher,
[17:06.520 -> 17:09.720] he struck a timpani or a kettle drum,
[17:09.720 -> 17:12.000] and he just struck it and he waited.
[17:12.000 -> 17:13.280] He didn't say anything.
[17:13.280 -> 17:16.600] He just let that journey of sound happen.
[17:16.600 -> 17:17.800] And then he said,
[17:17.800 -> 17:22.800] "'Evelyn, could you feel, physically feel that sound?'
[17:23.360 -> 17:25.440] And I said, "'Oh, I don't know.
[17:25.640 -> 17:28.600] And so he struck it again and I really paid attention.
[17:28.800 -> 17:31.000] I said, yes, I think I do.
[17:31.200 -> 17:34.960] And he asked me then to place my hands on the wall of the room.
[17:35.160 -> 17:36.560] And he struck the drum again.
[17:36.760 -> 17:40.600] And sure enough, I could really feel that sound through the palm of my hands or my
[17:40.600 -> 17:42.480] fingers or whatever it was at the time.
[17:42.680 -> 17:46.040] And I said, Krums, I really do feel that, you know.
[17:46.240 -> 17:48.840] And then he changed the pitch of the drum.
[17:49.040 -> 17:53.280] And lo and behold, you know, that that had a different feeling again.
[17:53.480 -> 17:57.440] And what was important was paying attention to the initial strike,
[17:57.640 -> 18:03.840] to the journey of the sound and then the landscape thereafter,
[18:04.040 -> 18:07.680] which you might say is silence, but it's that moment
[18:07.680 -> 18:11.080] of, well, what did that sound do to me?
[18:11.080 -> 18:16.160] And that is the key moment when you decide how to link the next sound.
[18:16.160 -> 18:18.200] That's what I discovered much later, of course.
[18:18.200 -> 18:29.560] But this was, I can't express it because it was as though my body became a huge ear. Quite literally, it responded to every part and it gave me
[18:29.760 -> 18:35.040] the meaning of paying attention, the difference between hearing something
[18:35.240 -> 18:38.680] and listening to something, it made me realise that, you know,
[18:38.880 -> 18:41.960] to have a hearing impairment is, as I say, a medical thing.
[18:42.160 -> 18:47.680] But to listen, you know, you can have absolutely a flat graph
[18:47.680 -> 18:52.600] when it comes to hearing, but you could still be a profound listener. And that was quite
[18:52.600 -> 18:58.700] a revelation for me, because then I could deal with dynamics. I could understand what
[18:58.700 -> 19:05.200] texture meant. I could control my sound, and it was very much dealing with my sound.
[19:05.400 -> 19:10.800] So thinking about internally what is coming out of me in order to go through
[19:11.000 -> 19:14.760] the instrument and then to serve that same meal to the audience.
[19:14.960 -> 19:18.960] So it became rather than than thinking, right, well, how do I do this?
[19:19.160 -> 19:23.640] So, you know, put something externally into me and then I'll try and make
[19:23.640 -> 19:28.560] something of it and then I'll try and get it out again. So instead it was feeling the vibration,
[19:28.560 -> 19:33.160] making sense of that and then what do I want to do with it? And that's really
[19:33.160 -> 19:38.400] been the cycle of what I do because I don't pick up on the subtleties when you
[19:38.400 -> 19:41.920] put a recording with someone else on or even if you're watching something on
[19:41.920 -> 19:45.520] YouTube. You're not getting that absolute
[19:46.160 -> 19:51.920] physical, physical vibration that's coming through the fingertips or, you know, your jawbone or your
[19:51.920 -> 19:55.600] scalp or something like that. That doesn't happen through the computer.
[19:55.600 -> 19:56.000] Paul Edmondson
[19:56.000 -> 20:00.720] Evelyn, what I'd really like to talk about is how important it's been in your life to have people
[20:00.720 -> 20:05.160] around you who see things a little bit differently, whether
[20:05.160 -> 20:09.920] it's your parents thinking, hold on, let's not push our daughter down the route that
[20:09.920 -> 20:13.640] we would traditionally go down, and let's keep her at the school that she loves, or
[20:13.640 -> 20:17.880] whether it's the teachers at that school embracing you, whether it's when you came
[20:17.880 -> 20:23.120] to London as someone wanting to study music but not being able to hear, many
[20:23.120 -> 20:28.800] lecturers would have said that's not possible, right down to the man getting you to put your hand on the wall
[20:28.800 -> 20:33.480] to hear music. If you hadn't been surrounded by people who see the bigger
[20:33.480 -> 20:38.040] picture and who think differently, I'm not sure your journey would have even
[20:38.040 -> 20:39.840] started, let alone got to hear.
[20:39.840 -> 20:43.000] Well, and that is an interesting point because we
[20:43.000 -> 20:47.640] actually don't know, you know, what the scenario might've been.
[20:47.640 -> 20:50.760] I think the key thing was the percussion teacher,
[20:50.760 -> 20:52.440] you know, when I was 12 years old,
[20:52.440 -> 20:54.840] asking me to put my hands on the wall.
[20:54.840 -> 20:58.160] I think that was a very, very key moment
[20:58.160 -> 21:00.760] because it surpassed just being a musician
[21:00.760 -> 21:02.920] or being the percussion player.
[21:02.920 -> 21:04.520] This was about ownership.
[21:04.520 -> 21:08.640] It was about ownership of a particular situation.
[21:08.640 -> 21:12.680] And that really, I suppose life became almost
[21:12.680 -> 21:15.120] like an octopus then, in that you could, you know,
[21:15.120 -> 21:18.040] wiggle all the things that you felt inside of yourself
[21:18.960 -> 21:23.280] and really allow yourself to expand those tentacles
[21:23.280 -> 21:25.840] and see then what was beyond.
[21:26.040 -> 21:29.960] We know that something like success doesn't happen in isolation,
[21:30.160 -> 21:34.360] but ultimately you have to listen to that gut instinct.
[21:34.560 -> 21:38.440] And it is very easy to say, oh, you can't do this or you should be,
[21:38.440 -> 21:40.680] you know, going there or doing that or whatever.
[21:40.880 -> 21:42.200] And we all face that.
[21:42.400 -> 21:44.440] I mean, we've all been in that situation.
[21:44.640 -> 21:47.880] But I think that, you know, as I said before, we've got a story.
[21:47.880 -> 21:49.200] Each of us have a story.
[21:49.200 -> 21:54.520] And if we think that in my case, I happen to, you know, enjoy music
[21:54.520 -> 21:59.680] and there's something in me that feels this is the area I want to follow.
[22:00.120 -> 22:07.480] I think that even when, you know, you have a kind of scenario of less is more, there's a kind of
[22:07.480 -> 22:15.240] determination there, a purpose, sort of feeling, a purposefulness that I think is really crucial.
[22:15.240 -> 22:16.920] And I can't quite describe it.
[22:16.920 -> 22:21.880] I don't know why it's there, how it gets in there, but I think we all have it.
[22:21.880 -> 22:24.840] It's just sort of finding it.
[22:24.840 -> 22:29.120] And yes, we need people to bounce off in order to find that for sure.
[22:29.320 -> 22:34.680] But we also need that sort of inner feeling of talking to ourselves
[22:34.880 -> 22:38.240] and just thinking, you know what, let's let's just give this a go.
[22:38.440 -> 22:41.040] Because I always felt that when I was 15
[22:41.240 -> 22:45.600] and made the decision to be a solo percussionist, I did say to myself that,
[22:45.600 -> 22:51.200] well, look, if this doesn't work out, then I probably won't be in music, because I didn't
[22:51.200 -> 22:55.760] want to be in an orchestra. I didn't want to teach at that time. I didn't want to do many
[22:55.760 -> 22:59.920] other things within the umbrella of music. So there's no sort of, oh, well, if that doesn't
[22:59.920 -> 23:07.760] work, then I can also do this or that, but without the passion. So it was a very clear-cut situation
[23:07.760 -> 23:13.600] and the aim was really, really simple. So I felt I could tattoo it on my forehead,
[23:13.600 -> 23:19.440] solo percussionist, and that was it. And I think that, you know, keeping the aims really simple
[23:20.000 -> 23:26.560] is really important. And how did you not get derailed from those aims and those ambitions
[23:26.560 -> 23:32.000] with the disability that you had, with if indeed you can even call it a disability,
[23:32.000 -> 23:37.200] it certainly isn't something that's prevented you from achieving great things. So where did
[23:37.200 -> 23:43.280] the mindset come from that you were not the kind of person to look for the excuse, you were the
[23:43.280 -> 23:46.160] kind of person that would push through what
[23:46.160 -> 23:50.160] was going on and say, no, no, no, I'm still going to do what I dream of doing.
[23:50.160 -> 23:56.480] Well, I think for me, it was not focusing on deafness. So, you know, I wanted to be
[23:56.480 -> 24:01.680] as good a percussionist as I possibly could. And then I realised that that was a never-ending
[24:01.680 -> 24:07.320] cycle and it still is. And then I wanted to be as good a musician as I could.
[24:07.520 -> 24:10.000] And then again, you know, that is just never ending.
[24:10.000 -> 24:11.640] And then I thought, well, what am I?
[24:11.840 -> 24:15.400] What is a musician? A musician creates sound.
[24:15.600 -> 24:18.720] So it doesn't matter whether you play the paper and comb or, you know,
[24:18.720 -> 24:21.920] you're a vocalist or an accordionist, a percussionist, a clarinet player,
[24:22.120 -> 24:30.120] violinist, we make sound and the audience doesn't care about, you know, paradiddles or flams or drags
[24:30.320 -> 24:35.880] in drumming terms, but they will care about emotion or if they're feeling
[24:36.080 -> 24:40.600] something or sensing a really true performance.
[24:40.800 -> 24:44.760] And they can sense if someone wants to be there or not.
[24:44.760 -> 24:44.960] performance and they can sense if someone wants to be there or not.
[24:51.120 -> 24:51.320] So, you know, I really feel that it's a combination of determination,
[24:54.760 -> 24:56.880] but really thinking, no, you know, percussion, being the musician, being the sound creator, that's the focus.
[24:57.080 -> 24:58.960] Because ultimately, you know,
[24:59.160 -> 25:03.520] when a promoter employs me or hires me as a musician, they're not hiring a deaf
[25:03.720 -> 25:05.840] musician, they're hiring a musician.
[25:05.840 -> 25:08.040] That's the crux of it.
[25:08.040 -> 25:10.720] And I think the scenario might have been quite different
[25:10.720 -> 25:13.920] if I had made the decision to promote myself
[25:13.920 -> 25:15.600] as a deaf musician.
[25:15.600 -> 25:18.680] I think we might have quite a different landscape there,
[25:18.680 -> 25:22.760] but it was absolutely imperative that I, in a way,
[25:22.760 -> 25:26.800] fitted in, but didn't fit in. So fit in as regards to
[25:26.800 -> 25:32.200] working hard, you know, this is my aim, this is what I need to do. I know I'm
[25:32.200 -> 25:37.040] different, I know that, but nevertheless that's my responsibility, you know. I'm
[25:37.040 -> 25:41.840] not going to go into a work with a conductor or fellow musicians making
[25:41.840 -> 25:48.320] excuses and, oh you know, you need to do this, you need to do that because I, I'm, I, you know, can't hear you there, I can't hear you there,
[25:48.320 -> 25:52.200] or, you know, where it's all of this baggage that you're putting on other people. It needs
[25:52.200 -> 25:58.560] to be very clear what the situation is. So, for example, if I'm playing a percussion concerto,
[25:58.560 -> 26:03.560] I angle my instruments to a 90 degree angle to the audience and the orchestra at the front
[26:03.560 -> 26:06.400] of the stage so that I can see the conductor
[26:06.400 -> 26:08.240] and he or she can see me.
[26:08.240 -> 26:11.840] I can see three quarters of the orchestra
[26:11.840 -> 26:15.440] and they can also see me and so on and so.
[26:15.440 -> 26:19.880] So little things like that, and that happens automatically.
[26:19.880 -> 26:22.680] So no one needs to know why this is going on.
[26:22.680 -> 26:25.840] It's, this is a scenario, that's what needs to happen.
[26:25.840 -> 26:27.880] And it makes absolutely no difference
[26:27.880 -> 26:31.080] as regards to the quality of the end product.
[26:31.080 -> 26:31.960] Really interesting.
[26:31.960 -> 26:36.040] I think the key thing for me is simplifying everything.
[26:36.040 -> 26:37.360] It really is.
[26:37.360 -> 26:40.160] I think it's always been like that.
[26:40.160 -> 26:43.160] So simplify your goals, simplify the aims.
[26:44.600 -> 26:50.840] There's no shortcuts as regards to, you know, getting from point A to point B.
[26:50.920 -> 26:52.000] There just aren't.
[26:52.080 -> 26:56.240] So even if you see, you know, the programmes on television,
[26:56.320 -> 26:59.840] you know, like The X Factor or Britain's Got Talent or whatever,
[26:59.920 -> 27:01.880] where suddenly, you know, you go on,
[27:01.960 -> 27:07.320] you play or perform for two, three minutes or something, and then you have a record contract or something.
[27:07.520 -> 27:10.000] You know, that that is not sustainable.
[27:10.200 -> 27:11.520] That's the reality.
[27:11.720 -> 27:16.480] And I think that there's always this feeling that you can't take anything for granted.
[27:16.680 -> 27:18.520] It's like a moving river.
[27:18.720 -> 27:20.960] So physically, what I do as a musician is
[27:21.160 -> 27:25.160] quite similar to how a sports person listens to their body.
[27:25.360 -> 27:28.080] They're always tweaking and weeding and
[27:28.280 -> 27:34.240] redefining, reengaging, revisiting, you know, pushing the boundaries,
[27:34.440 -> 27:40.520] just listening to every aspect of that body, listening to the mind,
[27:40.720 -> 27:48.960] because that's just such a power, if not the most powerful part of this whole journey.
[27:48.960 -> 27:53.440] And knowing that it's not going to be the same 20 years ago, you know, you're not going
[27:53.440 -> 27:58.260] to feel the same or interpret music in the same way as you did 20 years ago.
[27:58.260 -> 27:59.840] And that's good.
[27:59.840 -> 28:00.840] That's really healthy.
[28:00.840 -> 28:01.840] That's important.
[28:01.840 -> 28:28.480] Ryan Reynolds here from InMobile. really healthy, that's important. Biddy get 20, 20, 20, biddy get 20, 20, biddy get 15, 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month. So, give it a try at MintMobile.com slash switch.
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[30:40.160 -> 30:50.700] fees and restrictions apply. See mint mobile for details. So what would you say then, Evelyn, have been the significant changes that you've made?
[30:50.700 -> 30:56.560] Because I'm interested in exploring this idea of your story that was nurtured in you as
[30:56.560 -> 31:07.440] a child. So how similar is your story as opposed to the goals and the changes that you've incorporated in that 20-year journey?
[31:08.160 -> 31:16.320] I think that the goals have been really the same, actually. The goals of continuing as a solo
[31:16.320 -> 31:21.760] percussionist, making sure there's new music to play, not necessarily just for myself but for
[31:21.760 -> 31:26.280] other people too, I think trying to be the best you possibly can
[31:26.280 -> 31:29.280] is absolutely still there,
[31:29.280 -> 31:33.960] but you're in a way, I suppose, picking things differently.
[31:33.960 -> 31:36.920] You're dealing with time differently.
[31:36.920 -> 31:38.220] You know, when you're a young person,
[31:38.220 -> 31:39.960] you're saying yes to everything.
[31:39.960 -> 31:42.360] And, you know, just because you feel as though
[31:42.360 -> 31:44.140] you're not gonna be asked again,
[31:44.140 -> 31:48.120] and you want to create a reputation, and you want to, you know, feel as though you're not going to be asked again and you want to create a reputation and you want to feel as though you can do
[31:48.120 -> 31:51.040] everything, so you say yes to something and then you think, oh, Crom's right.
[31:51.240 -> 31:52.960] How am I actually going to do that?
[31:53.160 -> 31:57.360] Whereas now you might say yes to something with real consideration.
[31:57.560 -> 32:01.520] So how can you make a difference to this particular scenario?
[32:01.720 -> 32:03.720] What time do I need?
[32:03.920 -> 32:05.400] It might be more time in certain
[32:05.400 -> 32:10.720] situations than what you needed before. It's really sort of, I suppose, bringing
[32:10.720 -> 32:16.980] the layers or the depth to what you do now and not feeling guilty by saying no
[32:16.980 -> 32:22.440] to something. That's really important and I think unlike a sports person, it isn't
[32:22.440 -> 32:26.080] about a win or a lose, a first or a second, you know,
[32:26.080 -> 32:31.560] this is something where it's all about, it might please someone and for another person
[32:31.560 -> 32:36.680] it doesn't, you know, it might have a completely different feeling. But ultimately to give
[32:36.680 -> 32:46.400] truly something that is genuine, it has to start with the listening of yourself. It really, really does. So I think a lot of the
[32:46.400 -> 32:53.400] aims are the same, but just that I suppose the layering has changed now and the pace
[32:53.400 -> 33:00.400] of what you do things has changed because of the feeling of not feeling guilty by saying
[33:00.400 -> 33:07.720] no to something, declining something or feeling that that project may not be right for you at this particular time and so on or
[33:07.860 -> 33:11.040] thinking that well, you know, that's a really really great project.
[33:11.140 -> 33:17.960] However, I don't feel I'm the right person for that, but I know someone who is. So it's really making these connections
[33:17.960 -> 33:23.500] and that are much more important to me than they were early on actually.
[33:24.620 -> 33:27.360] I guess one of the big challenges, Evelyn,
[33:27.360 -> 33:30.880] is people who don't know what they really want to do
[33:30.880 -> 33:32.080] from a young age.
[33:32.080 -> 33:35.180] What would your advice be to anyone listening to this,
[33:35.180 -> 33:36.640] or even parents listening to this,
[33:36.640 -> 33:38.080] who maybe look at their children and think,
[33:38.080 -> 33:41.320] I'd love to help you, but I don't see a clear path?
[33:41.320 -> 33:43.960] I know, and I mean, I don't have children,
[33:43.960 -> 33:46.240] so I haven't gone through that journey,
[33:46.240 -> 33:52.480] but I think what's fascinating, it's a bit like if you're trying to choose an instrument to play,
[33:52.480 -> 33:58.560] I mean, why do people gravitate to playing the bassoon or the French horn, or what is it that
[33:58.560 -> 34:06.360] makes people play what they play? And, you know, for me, a lot of it was, again, when I went to the secondary
[34:06.560 -> 34:12.040] school and all new pupils popped into the school hall and the school orchestra played
[34:12.240 -> 34:18.000] for us all. That was incredible, I have to say, because it gave us a chance to look
[34:18.200 -> 34:22.200] at the orchestra. And I looked at them thinking, strings?
[34:22.400 -> 34:24.440] I don't really want to play strings.
[34:24.640 -> 34:26.120] I don't really want to play brass. I don't really want to play brass.
[34:26.120 -> 34:28.440] I don't really want to play wind instruments
[34:28.440 -> 34:30.200] because I've already tried that.
[34:30.200 -> 34:31.840] But percussion, that seems interesting,
[34:31.840 -> 34:33.800] but absolutely I had no idea
[34:33.800 -> 34:35.960] that that would be the thing for me.
[34:35.960 -> 34:39.040] And I think that it's really truly opening up
[34:39.040 -> 34:43.160] as many opportunities for our families to experience,
[34:43.160 -> 34:44.560] whether it's going to a zoo,
[34:44.560 -> 34:49.360] whether it's going to just the local park, whether it's going to see a concert,
[34:49.360 -> 34:52.480] whether it's going to go to an event that you think, oh, heavens,
[34:52.480 -> 34:54.160] that's not for a five year old or something.
[34:54.160 -> 34:57.120] But then you go and suddenly something, just something,
[34:57.320 -> 35:02.120] it could be something that somebody says or a comment that a child makes,
[35:02.320 -> 35:05.920] a word that they utter, something, something that they might draw,
[35:06.480 -> 35:13.760] you know, it's really paying attention, but basically opening the world up to them and just
[35:13.760 -> 35:20.720] seeing how they interact with it. I love that answer, Damien. It's phenomenal. I've often heard
[35:20.720 -> 35:25.140] it described by child psychologists as that open mouth moment,
[35:25.140 -> 35:27.300] and for parents to look for that moment
[35:27.300 -> 35:30.540] when a child just looks in awe and wonder at something
[35:30.540 -> 35:32.900] and to pursue that passion.
[35:32.900 -> 35:34.420] Yeah, and I think what's interesting,
[35:34.420 -> 35:36.140] you know, I mean, for example,
[35:36.140 -> 35:39.940] I remember during the lambing season on the farm,
[35:39.940 -> 35:44.940] springtime, and it was my task to look after the sick lambs,
[35:46.600 -> 35:46.800] and we called them the sickies.
[35:51.320 -> 35:55.600] And basically I had to milk them and all of that. And I was allowed to take them in, can you believe, into the kitchen and put them
[35:55.800 -> 36:00.240] on a rug by the radiator and feed them by a milk bottle.
[36:00.440 -> 36:04.960] And and I used to sleep with them overnight, can you believe, in the kitchen?
[36:05.160 -> 36:09.360] And then once they become strong enough and they were then taken to the mart
[36:09.560 -> 36:12.240] and sold and I would be given the money for that.
[36:12.440 -> 36:15.680] And so it was kind of a sense of responsibility.
[36:15.880 -> 36:18.400] But all of these things built together,
[36:18.600 -> 36:23.280] being around machinery, being around livestock, giving tasks to do on the farm
[36:23.480 -> 36:26.440] and so on was a massive, massive, massive
[36:26.440 -> 36:32.360] lesson in a way, in various ways. So I suppose for my parents they could see
[36:32.360 -> 36:36.960] responsibility, they could see that they could trust an eight-year-old or a
[36:36.960 -> 36:40.640] ten-year-old, you know, by a great big combine harvester or something like that,
[36:40.640 -> 36:50.720] they could give that child a task and they would know it would be done. Those sort of things are all building blocks. And that's what it's about. It's building
[36:50.720 -> 36:56.240] blocks just as you build a career. It's building blocks all of the time. So when I'm asked,
[36:56.240 -> 37:00.320] well, what has been the most extraordinary performance or what has been the turnaround
[37:00.320 -> 37:07.280] point or whatever, I actually couldn't just pick one thing because all of them are just that.
[37:07.480 -> 37:12.000] You know, when you hold your first solo CD in your hand, that's important.
[37:12.200 -> 37:13.880] When you graduate, that's important.
[37:14.080 -> 37:17.680] When you hold your autobiography in your hand, that's important.
[37:17.680 -> 37:21.560] When you play to a group of five year olds and they're seeing a marimba that looks
[37:21.760 -> 37:24.840] like a great big tank for the first time, that's important.
[37:25.040 -> 37:27.080] So it's all about planting seeds.
[37:27.280 -> 37:32.600] And I think for my parents, when they could recognise my actions
[37:32.800 -> 37:37.920] around the farm, they knew that I would be perfectly OK going
[37:38.120 -> 37:42.640] to London as a 16 year old by myself and just getting on, you know,
[37:42.840 -> 37:45.360] but as if they saw somebody who was, you know,
[37:45.360 -> 37:49.240] collapsing every time they were given a task or something, or frightened of
[37:49.240 -> 37:53.640] livestock, or couldn't complete something, they might think, right, well, we might
[37:53.640 -> 37:59.320] need to, you know, rethink the journey and perhaps not have a, you know, storm down
[37:59.320 -> 38:03.280] to London because, you know, this might be a different scenario. So I think
[38:03.280 -> 38:05.880] observation is really important.
[38:05.880 -> 38:09.480] That journey to London really intrigues me, Evelyn,
[38:09.480 -> 38:13.040] because the environment that you were brought up in,
[38:13.040 -> 38:14.720] the farm and the school,
[38:14.720 -> 38:19.360] just sounds incredibly nurturing and warm and understanding.
[38:19.360 -> 38:22.360] And then for you to leave that cocoon
[38:22.360 -> 38:23.600] and go down to London
[38:23.600 -> 38:27.080] where you have to challenge perceptions of your capability
[38:27.080 -> 38:29.760] and what people think is possible.
[38:30.640 -> 38:35.240] How did you sustain that drive and that ambition
[38:35.240 -> 38:38.840] in what sounds like a very different world?
[38:38.840 -> 38:43.260] Yes, I mean, basically I just kept the aim really simple.
[38:43.260 -> 38:48.480] I knew that I needed to be a student for the minimum of three years and then I'd
[38:48.680 -> 38:52.400] graduate and that aim of solo percussionist, solo percussionist, solo
[38:52.600 -> 38:56.480] percussionist was absolutely the driving force.
[38:56.680 -> 39:01.600] And I knew I was very lucky to get in and I wasn't going to waste my time.
[39:01.800 -> 39:05.760] So, you know, I was not out partying or socialising.
[39:05.960 -> 39:07.440] I was probably quite a loner.
[39:07.640 -> 39:10.720] I got on with people and I was pretty civil with people.
[39:10.920 -> 39:14.720] But I was not out to make friends as such, you know what I mean?
[39:14.920 -> 39:18.360] It was this three year period, absolutely clear cut.
[39:18.560 -> 39:20.200] This is what I needed to achieve.
[39:20.400 -> 39:28.480] I needed to gain a degree and then I could then open myself up truly to the journey of
[39:28.480 -> 39:30.960] being a solo percussion player.
[39:30.960 -> 39:38.160] So it was a very, very steely, you know, one road kind of situation.
[39:38.160 -> 39:43.080] And also, you know, because I wasn't able to use a phone and call people up and just
[39:43.080 -> 39:45.160] have a chat and you know build
[39:45.160 -> 39:48.800] relationships up like that. It meant that if you wanted to communicate with
[39:48.800 -> 39:54.160] someone you had to write a letter and so you know when I went home in between
[39:54.160 -> 40:00.240] each term that was equally focused because that was a time when I learned
[40:00.240 -> 40:07.400] to drive for example. So there's always an aim as regards to every block of time.
[40:07.600 -> 40:12.960] And that was really, really crucial because it gave you always something to feel
[40:13.160 -> 40:17.800] as though, well, I suppose, oh, that's the next block, as it were,
[40:18.000 -> 40:19.920] of your journey.
[40:20.120 -> 40:21.520] And that's how I've always been.
[40:21.720 -> 40:25.240] And, you know, what is the next step, really?
[40:25.440 -> 40:30.320] Being a student, I remember that it sort of brought me back to the days of,
[40:30.520 -> 40:33.880] you know, playing the piano on the farm and being isolated, you know,
[40:34.080 -> 40:40.160] because of the painful ears and being really happy on my own was a key point
[40:40.360 -> 40:44.280] to being in London. So, you know, just happy doing things
[40:44.480 -> 40:46.040] by myself and that
[40:46.040 -> 40:50.960] allowed me to use my time. So I was always the first in at the Academy as the
[40:50.960 -> 40:55.200] last out. I mean sometimes they had to just literally pluck me out from the
[40:55.200 -> 40:58.600] depths of the Academy because they needed to shut up, you know, shut the place up.
[40:58.600 -> 41:04.960] And at weekends when normally it would be pretty quiet, again I was
[41:04.960 -> 41:07.160] just waiting at the door to get in.
[41:07.160 -> 41:10.520] And again, then just being plucked out, you know, to leave.
[41:10.520 -> 41:11.960] And that's how it was.
[41:11.960 -> 41:14.200] I just felt really privileged to be there.
[41:14.200 -> 41:16.960] And I definitely didn't want to waste my time.
[41:16.960 -> 41:20.040] I really admired the singular focus that you had.
[41:21.280 -> 41:23.560] How do you open yourself up now
[41:23.560 -> 41:26.000] to listen to feedback from other people?
[41:26.000 -> 41:32.000] So we've met high performers that have coaches or people that are mentors that advise them.
[41:32.000 -> 41:37.000] Do you have that now? And if so, when did that happen for you?
[41:37.000 -> 41:49.280] Well, that's a really interesting question because, of course, you know, I felt that the time when I was really listened to as a player, so as a percussion player and as a musician, was actually when I was at
[41:49.480 -> 41:52.000] school, because everything was possible.
[41:52.200 -> 41:55.880] You know, myself and my colleagues would play solo percussion in the school
[41:56.080 -> 42:00.800] concerts, you know, we're all doing the same thing and sharing things and so on.
[42:01.000 -> 42:03.240] And it was only when I became a full time
[42:03.440 -> 42:09.440] student that there were expectations whereby most of the people who graduated would go into
[42:09.440 -> 42:14.320] orchestras or they would teach. And so there's that expectation, especially
[42:14.320 -> 42:19.760] being a percussion player. And because I wasn't part of that, there was absolutely
[42:19.760 -> 42:27.800] no guidance whatsoever in being a solo percussionist. So all of the repertoire, trying to find things to play,
[42:27.800 -> 42:30.400] you know, transcribing music, arranging music,
[42:30.400 -> 42:33.840] all had to be done literally by myself.
[42:33.840 -> 42:35.880] So there's an awful lot of listening
[42:35.880 -> 42:39.160] to your own gut instinct.
[42:39.160 -> 42:41.920] And really, I think the first time I was really
[42:41.920 -> 42:44.160] sort of getting feedback as such
[42:44.160 -> 42:45.600] was from sort of newspaper feedback as such was from
[42:49.400 -> 42:49.880] sort of newspaper critics, you know, reviews and things like that.
[42:52.920 -> 42:53.800] And it's very important, you know, to,
[42:59.440 -> 42:59.480] I suppose, read things because I always read reviews, even to this day.
[43:03.120 -> 43:03.480] You know, if I happen to come across them, I will read the reviews.
[43:06.640 -> 43:13.120] But I feel as though I'm quite strong at thinking, right, what did you think? What did I think myself? Because even if you read a good review,
[43:13.120 -> 43:17.240] you know that, right, I know that this needs sorting out or that could have been better
[43:17.240 -> 43:23.380] or, you know, whatever. And I think it's really important to hold on to that because sometimes
[43:23.380 -> 43:25.560] you can get a really miserable review
[43:25.560 -> 43:27.640] and you might totally agree with it,
[43:27.640 -> 43:29.360] or you might think, well, actually,
[43:29.360 -> 43:30.800] I get what you're saying there,
[43:30.800 -> 43:32.720] however, I don't agree with you there.
[43:33.640 -> 43:35.840] Or you might disagree with it completely and think,
[43:35.840 -> 43:39.680] well, actually, I don't get what you're saying there
[43:39.680 -> 43:41.240] and I'm not learning something
[43:41.240 -> 43:42.960] from what you're saying either.
[43:42.960 -> 43:48.960] I think if there's an openness to learn from a scenario that can go an awful long way but it goes
[43:48.960 -> 43:56.240] always back to listening to yourself, you know, how are you digesting that and what
[43:56.240 -> 44:01.120] can you do about it? It's all about having a real honesty as well isn't it?
[44:01.120 -> 44:08.240] Being very very honest with yourself because if you're, if you're not honest with yourself, you're already lying to yourself.
[44:08.240 -> 44:13.480] Absolutely, absolutely, Jake. I think it's true and I think that, you know, you can't
[44:13.480 -> 44:21.120] really do anything creative if you're not honest, you know, because, you know,
[44:21.120 -> 44:25.000] ultimately, as I say, you're building on something.
[44:25.360 -> 44:27.920] So if you've got a dodgy foundation,
[44:27.920 -> 44:29.440] you can have all of the mod cons
[44:29.440 -> 44:31.600] or all of the most expensive furniture
[44:31.600 -> 44:32.800] or whatever it may be,
[44:32.800 -> 44:37.720] but if that foundation or gut feeling isn't there,
[44:37.720 -> 44:40.280] everything's going to collapse eventually.
[44:40.280 -> 44:42.680] So yes, it just goes back to listening.
[44:42.680 -> 44:44.760] It really, really does.
[44:44.760 -> 44:47.280] So I find that really quite fascinating
[44:47.280 -> 44:51.360] because it means that you're keeping your mind open,
[44:51.360 -> 44:55.480] you're keeping your mind, I suppose, receptive
[44:55.480 -> 44:59.960] to things, to scenarios, to occasions, to events.
[44:59.960 -> 45:04.520] And it's not just about being surrounded by amazing people.
[45:04.520 -> 45:07.960] You can look out the window and just observe something.
[45:07.960 -> 45:10.360] You think, oh, gosh, that's sort of interesting.
[45:10.360 -> 45:13.520] Or, oh, that's given me an idea or whatever.
[45:13.520 -> 45:15.120] So I do an awful lot of just standing,
[45:15.120 -> 45:16.880] looking out the window, to be honest.
[45:16.880 -> 45:21.200] But yeah, you don't need a lot in order to be inspired.
[45:21.200 -> 45:26.760] So, Evelyn, what tips would you give our listeners to really become
[45:26.760 -> 45:34.960] world-class, high-performance listeners? Well, I'm not sure if I'd sort of
[45:34.960 -> 45:40.280] describe it as world-class. I think we've all got the capabilities of it, you know,
[45:40.280 -> 45:45.000] we've got the machinery to do it.
[45:45.080 -> 45:46.080] We really do.
[45:46.080 -> 45:48.320] It's just whether we decide to do it.
[45:48.320 -> 45:51.280] So there's nothing that you have to train
[45:51.280 -> 45:55.240] or there's not a system or a method or anything like that.
[45:55.240 -> 45:56.920] When you wake up in the morning,
[45:56.920 -> 45:58.600] you're immediately doing it.
[45:58.600 -> 46:00.680] You're sort of getting up and you might say,
[46:00.680 -> 46:03.880] oh, shall I shower first or have my breakfast?
[46:03.880 -> 46:05.160] You make that decision. So you might say, well, you know, shall I shower first or have my breakfast? You make that decision.
[46:05.160 -> 46:07.760] So you might say, well, I think I'll shower first.
[46:07.960 -> 46:10.200] Well, already that's a form of listening.
[46:10.400 -> 46:16.160] And because you've listened to yourself and made the decision and then the action
[46:16.360 -> 46:19.800] of taking the shower, you then go and have your breakfast and then you say, oh,
[46:20.000 -> 46:24.880] shall I have one slice of toast or two or porridge or cornflakes or whatever?
[46:25.280 -> 46:29.120] So it's constantly, constantly happening to us.
[46:29.120 -> 46:33.080] And from that, we're always actioning something.
[46:33.080 -> 46:34.400] And that's really interesting.
[46:34.400 -> 46:39.360] So if I go into my studio at home and I think to myself,
[46:39.360 -> 46:42.120] okay, I've got 20 minutes to do something.
[46:42.120 -> 46:47.120] And I find that a 20 minute period is actually really handy because if nothing
[46:47.120 -> 46:49.160] comes from that, you don't feel too guilty.
[46:49.160 -> 46:53.400] So it's not as though you've given two hours or something and not not actually
[46:53.600 -> 46:58.880] achieve something, but 20 minutes is a really good time to focus and think,
[46:59.080 -> 47:02.640] right, this is what I'd like to achieve in these 20 minutes.
[47:02.840 -> 47:04.920] It could be a certain thing that you want
[47:07.520 -> 47:07.720] to get up to speed or make more smooth or
[47:11.440 -> 47:11.640] learn another phrase of music or concentrate on a particular technique,
[47:16.440 -> 47:16.640] whatever it is, 20 minutes and nine times out of 10.
[47:20.440 -> 47:20.640] It's amazing what you achieve in those 20 minutes.
[47:24.160 -> 47:24.360] And that's why I break things down into 20 minute periods.
[47:28.400 -> 47:30.360] And, you know, it gives you the option of thinking, well, actually, I'd just quite like to go on longer than 20 minutes.
[47:30.560 -> 47:34.600] Or you might think, you know what, I've done really well in 15 minutes,
[47:34.600 -> 47:39.080] actually, and I'm not saying that you're hostage to exactly 20 minutes or whatever.
[47:39.280 -> 47:48.280] But in general, that's a really healthy period, certainly in the kind of industry that I'm in, to really
[47:48.280 -> 47:54.680] sort of switch on mentally, physically, and try to achieve something in that time.
[47:54.680 -> 47:57.680] We're often brought up thinking you've got to spend hours and hours and hours and hours
[47:57.680 -> 48:00.760] and hours and hours, you know, practicing and things like that.
[48:00.760 -> 48:08.200] And yes, of course, you have to spend an awful lot of time. But when you think of, oh, gosh, you know, must I spend, you know,
[48:08.400 -> 48:12.840] eight hours today practising and then feel guilty if you only do six hours?
[48:13.040 -> 48:16.640] That then becomes an issue and it then becomes a burden.
[48:16.840 -> 48:20.520] Then all sorts of negative things start to creep in.
[48:20.720 -> 48:25.640] Whereas finding this sort of element whereby, you know, you can still have,
[48:25.840 -> 48:31.040] you know, six hours a day, but breaking it down into these sort of 20 minute
[48:31.240 -> 48:33.240] periods or however long you decide.
[48:33.240 -> 48:35.960] For somebody, it could be 30 minutes or 40 minutes, whatever.
[48:36.160 -> 48:40.000] And then just give yourself a bit of time in between.
[48:40.200 -> 48:43.040] Go and answer an email or look on the
[48:43.040 -> 48:46.080] Internet for something or just weed a bit of the garden or whatever it is.
[48:46.080 -> 48:50.160] You know, just have a sandwich. It doesn't matter, but then go back again.
[48:50.160 -> 48:59.680] And it becomes this really buoyant sort of experience rather than a task that has to be done, you know, every single day.
[48:59.680 -> 49:07.120] That's where we lose a lot of people because we lose that kind of feeling of achievement, I suppose,
[49:07.120 -> 49:09.600] but in a good way that resonates with you.
[49:09.920 -> 49:15.600] Jake and I normally do three quickfire questions, Evelyn, at the end of the podcast.
[49:16.080 -> 49:23.320] The first one is, what three non-negotiable behaviours do you and the people around you have to buy into?
[49:23.920 -> 49:28.720] I think for me, it's the understanding of time and patience.
[49:28.720 -> 49:32.320] So knowing that that particular person, in my case,
[49:32.320 -> 49:37.080] a musician or a sports person, needs time to develop
[49:37.080 -> 49:38.840] and therefore, you know,
[49:38.840 -> 49:41.680] that needs to be done often in isolation.
[49:41.680 -> 49:46.580] So I think the understanding of time and patience is one. I think that
[49:46.580 -> 49:52.720] also the understanding of the highs and lows, so the emotional side and the roller coaster
[49:52.720 -> 49:59.400] that that entails. So really being a good listener is pretty crucial. And I also feel
[49:59.400 -> 50:05.000] that, you know, looking after yourself mentally mentally, physically and so on.
[50:05.000 -> 50:08.520] And when other people around you are also part of that,
[50:08.520 -> 50:12.240] it becomes an easier task in a way.
[50:12.800 -> 50:16.200] So I suppose realising that we're all part of the performance.
[50:16.360 -> 50:19.800] Okay. So Evelyn, what advice would you give to a teenage Evelyn,
[50:19.880 -> 50:21.240] just starting out?
[50:21.680 -> 50:26.760] Oh gosh. Listen to yourself, truly listen to yourself.
[50:27.380 -> 50:30.340] So even with all of the things going on around you
[50:30.340 -> 50:33.860] is just take the time to ask what is important for me?
[50:33.860 -> 50:35.600] Where is my passion?
[50:35.600 -> 50:37.260] What do I want to do?
[50:37.260 -> 50:39.860] What makes me tick as a person?
[50:39.860 -> 50:40.980] What makes me happy?
[50:40.980 -> 50:42.540] What makes me motivated?
[50:42.540 -> 50:45.640] What makes me get up excited? How can I
[50:45.640 -> 50:51.640] make a difference? So, you know, really just asking yourself key questions, I
[50:51.640 -> 50:57.120] think that's really important and taking the time to just allow, you know, answers
[50:57.120 -> 51:00.800] to form. It may not happen in five minutes, but just giving yourself that
[51:00.800 -> 51:05.320] platform or landscape for things to evolve.
[51:05.320 -> 51:08.840] How important is legacy to you, Evelyn?
[51:08.840 -> 51:11.800] Legacy actually is very important.
[51:11.800 -> 51:16.240] I think that it's the springboard for the future.
[51:16.240 -> 51:20.240] I think that it is a mark in history.
[51:20.240 -> 51:23.440] I feel that legacy is about observing what is happening now,
[51:23.440 -> 51:25.320] what has happened before,
[51:25.320 -> 51:28.360] and what might happen in the future.
[51:28.360 -> 51:31.960] So I always feel that everything that I can do now,
[51:31.960 -> 51:35.280] I'd like that to be a springboard for other people
[51:35.280 -> 51:37.480] to take on board and achieve more,
[51:37.480 -> 51:39.880] to push the boundaries more, you know,
[51:39.880 -> 51:43.680] to ask more questions, to really develop more,
[51:43.680 -> 51:46.800] because we are all part of this chain. And
[51:46.800 -> 51:52.540] I think it would be a shame if my situation just sort of came to a full stop. I want this
[51:52.540 -> 51:59.360] to go on through other people and for them to take this in their own way and to, you
[51:59.360 -> 52:04.240] know, have their own story with it all. But I think that we all do need a springboard
[52:04.240 -> 52:10.800] and that's often come from that platform of a legacy. And finally, what is your one
[52:10.800 -> 52:18.480] golden rule to living a high-performance life? Well, humour goes a long way, that's
[52:18.480 -> 52:30.000] for sure. I think really being open-minded. I think that as soon as you become stuck on doing something one particular way,
[52:30.000 -> 52:39.000] we have a problem. I think that it's really knowing that actually, you know, just keeping your radar really flexible,
[52:39.000 -> 52:45.160] even with a particular aim, you never know quite, order to get there how that might change.
[52:45.160 -> 52:51.960] So keeping that resilience up, keeping the goal really, really clear and simple,
[52:51.960 -> 52:58.360] but knowing that the route there may well, you know, take you via places that
[52:58.360 -> 53:06.280] were unexpected and that's absolutely fine and that is part of the key element of the journey and
[53:06.280 -> 53:12.120] why the journey is so crucial. It really really is because that journey may take
[53:12.120 -> 53:17.560] you on pathways that you had never expected at all and that's really
[53:17.560 -> 53:23.800] fascinating so and that's what I enjoy in the arena that I'm involved with.
[53:23.800 -> 53:25.220] Brilliant.
[53:25.220 -> 53:28.280] It has been an absolute pleasure to sit and talk to you
[53:28.280 -> 53:29.580] on the High Performance Podcast.
[53:29.580 -> 53:31.380] Thank you so much for taking the time.
[53:31.380 -> 53:32.800] That was a big deal to speak to you,
[53:32.800 -> 53:34.340] both for myself and Damien.
[53:34.340 -> 53:36.180] Thank you both very much for having me.
[53:36.180 -> 53:37.340] That's a real pleasure.
[53:40.220 -> 53:41.180] Damien.
[53:41.180 -> 53:42.020] Jake.
[53:42.020 -> 53:43.880] Couple of big things that stood out for me
[53:43.880 -> 53:45.960] from that conversation, actually. The first one was that
[53:46.520 -> 53:50.760] Quite rare for someone to have incredible focus before they get their success
[53:50.760 -> 53:57.040] Like I know from my own personal experience that I was really focused on being the best TV presenter
[53:57.040 -> 54:01.040] I could possibly be but only really once I'd started the job on kids TV
[54:01.440 -> 54:07.500] It wasn't like when I was nine years old like her single-minded focus on where I wanted to go. That is amazing.
[54:07.500 -> 54:11.500] What I took away from it was just the power of the environment
[54:11.500 -> 54:15.000] in which we grow up in. I think, you know, speaking about her
[54:15.000 -> 54:20.500] parents not being prepared to make dramas out of situations
[54:20.500 -> 54:24.500] and then combining that with the school that helped to reframe
[54:24.500 -> 54:25.040] her deafness as seeing it as just another way to listen. situations and then combining that with the school that helped to reframe her
[54:25.040 -> 54:30.080] deafness as seeing it as just another way to listen. I think the power of that
[54:30.080 -> 54:34.680] environment obviously instilled in her a sense of where she wanted to go and how
[54:34.680 -> 54:36.760] determined she was to get there.
[54:36.760 -> 54:39.320] I also sort of really like the fact that
[54:39.320 -> 54:44.960] obviously she was hugely helped by people all around her as she was she was
[54:44.960 -> 54:45.480] growing up.
[54:45.480 -> 54:47.960] And, but just the absolute honesty,
[54:47.960 -> 54:49.440] when she talks about being honest with yourself,
[54:49.440 -> 54:51.320] I think that's probably one thing that all of us
[54:51.320 -> 54:52.560] could be a little bit better at,
[54:52.560 -> 54:55.400] is just being totally frank with ourselves.
[54:55.400 -> 54:56.840] Cause otherwise, like I said to her,
[54:56.840 -> 54:57.920] who are you lying to?
[54:57.920 -> 54:58.800] Only yourself.
[54:58.800 -> 55:01.720] Yeah. I think again, that's been a real trait, hasn't it?
[55:01.720 -> 55:04.560] Amongst a lot of the high performers that we've met,
[55:04.560 -> 55:05.360] this, this searing self-awareness that they don a real trait, hasn't it, amongst a lot of the high performers that we've met, this
[55:05.360 -> 55:10.400] searing self-awareness that they don't kid themselves, they don't lie to themselves,
[55:10.400 -> 55:16.720] it's just a constant willingness to look at all aspects of them and be completely honest with
[55:16.720 -> 55:23.840] themselves and their failings, is a real hallmark of all high performers, regardless of whether it's
[55:23.840 -> 55:29.000] in music like Evelyn or whether it's in sport or business, it's not allowing
[55:29.000 -> 55:33.600] themselves to become inflated with the sense of ego, it's about being
[55:33.600 -> 55:37.160] completely aware of where you are at any moment in time.
[55:37.160 -> 55:38.440] What stood out for you?
[55:38.440 -> 55:44.240] That reframing of disability, so the reframing of seeing that loss of
[55:44.240 -> 55:46.000] hearing as not a loss of hearing but an
[55:46.000 -> 55:52.400] ability to learn how to listen. I know we've spoken to high performers that talk about failure
[55:52.400 -> 55:58.400] and seeing it as feedback, but I think to hear somebody dealing with a trauma like that and
[55:58.400 -> 56:03.280] they're a way to reinterpret it, to still keep them on track of their goals and ambitions,
[56:04.060 -> 56:08.760] to still keep them on track of their goals and ambitions. I found it really stunning to be able to hear that first hand.
[56:08.760 -> 56:11.800] I actually found myself sort of correcting myself
[56:11.800 -> 56:13.720] when I used the word disability.
[56:13.720 -> 56:16.480] It simply is not, is it for her, a disability.
[56:16.480 -> 56:19.560] She has a lack, she can't hear,
[56:19.560 -> 56:22.280] but she's not disabled by that.
[56:22.280 -> 56:24.440] Exactly, and that was why I'd said to you
[56:24.440 -> 56:27.280] in the introduction when we were about to interview her
[56:27.280 -> 56:29.480] that this was a real game changer.
[56:29.480 -> 56:31.640] This wasn't somebody that's just changing
[56:31.640 -> 56:32.840] their industry of music.
[56:32.840 -> 56:36.080] This is somebody changing the perception in the world
[56:36.080 -> 56:40.240] of what we would consider to be a disability.
[56:40.240 -> 56:41.120] Really wonderful.
[56:41.120 -> 56:43.480] Well, listen, it was a pleasure to do that podcast,
[56:43.480 -> 56:44.320] wasn't it?
[56:44.320 -> 56:45.040] And yeah, thanks for asking such to do that podcast, wasn't it? And
[56:52.320 -> 56:56.500] Yeah, thanks for asking such insightful questions as always professor. No, I love it Jake. So thanks for inviting us along It's a I think we always have a great laugh and I just thought the listeners do well a huge
[56:56.500 -> 57:01.140] Thanks to you for listening, of course huge. Thanks as always to Damien Hughes for his hard work
[57:01.140 -> 57:07.080] But most of all thank you to Evelyn Glenny for coming on the podcast, being so honest, sharing her life story with us,
[57:07.080 -> 57:08.720] and hopefully giving you some lessons
[57:08.720 -> 57:11.920] about how you can live a life of taking responsibility,
[57:11.920 -> 57:14.340] despite the obstacles that are in front of you.
[57:14.340 -> 57:16.640] Do check us out at the highperformancepodcast.com
[57:16.640 -> 57:19.000] and remain part of the high performance community.
[57:19.000 -> 57:20.220] Thanks very much for joining us,
[57:20.220 -> 57:22.800] and we'll see you for another episode very soon.
[57:22.800 -> 57:39.120] Bye-bye.
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