E28 - Sir Clive Woodward: How to conquer the world with non-negotiables

Sir Clive Woodward is the head coach who led England’s rugby players to World Cup glory in Australia in 2003. A former England International and British & Irish Lion himself, prior to his full time coaching career Clive established a successful business career working for nine years with Xerox.

During Clive’s tenure as Head Coach England moved from 6th in the world to being the number one ranked team, winning every trophy an England team can win.

In 2006 Clive Woodward joined the British Olympic Association. As Team GB’s Director of Sport he worked in close partnership with key stakeholders in British Sport to support the national coaches and athletes at the Beijing & Vancouver Olympics as well as deliver Team GB’s most successful Olympic Games in the modern era at London 2012.

Clive is currently the Founder and Chairman of Hive Learning – an app which has digitised Clive’s coaching methods and is designed to improve the quality of learning in business and sport.

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# Summary: Sir Clive Woodward's High-Performance Leadership and Team-Building Strategies

Sir Clive Woodward, the renowned rugby coach who led England to victory in the 2003 Rugby World Cup, shares his insights on leadership, team-building, and achieving high performance. His strategies emphasize the importance of:

1. **Engaging Players and Creating a Shared Vision:** Woodward believed in actively listening to players, valuing their opinions, and creating a culture where they felt empowered to contribute. He set a clear vision for the team, emphasizing the potential for greatness and the need for collective effort to achieve it.

2. **Establishing Open Communication and Trust:** Woodward fostered a culture of open communication, where players felt comfortable expressing their thoughts and concerns. He encouraged players to challenge him and each other, creating an environment of mutual respect and trust.

3. **Promoting Individual Excellence and Team Cohesion:** Woodward recognized the importance of developing individual players' skills and talents while also fostering a strong sense of team cohesion. He believed that creating a high-performing team required both individual brilliance and a collective commitment to the team's success.

4. **Leading by Example and Setting Standards:** Woodward set high standards for himself and the team, demonstrating his commitment to excellence through his work ethic, dedication, and attention to detail. He led by example, inspiring players to follow his lead and strive for greatness.

5. **Adapting to Change and Embracing Innovation:** Woodward emphasized the need for continuous improvement and adaptation to changing circumstances. He was open to new ideas and willing to experiment with different strategies to find the best solutions for the team.

6. **Building a Strong Support System:** Woodward recognized the importance of a strong support system, both within the team and beyond. He involved players' families, sought expert advice, and created a network of individuals who contributed to the team's success.

7. **Maintaining Focus and Dedication:** Woodward stressed the importance of maintaining focus and dedication throughout the journey, emphasizing the need for perseverance and resilience in the face of challenges. He encouraged players to stay committed to the process and to never give up on their goals.

Woodward's leadership and team-building strategies have proven successful not only in the world of rugby but also in other fields such as business and sport. His emphasis on engaging individuals, fostering open communication, and creating a culture of excellence provides valuable lessons for anyone seeking to achieve high performance in their endeavors.

# Summary of the Podcast Episode: Clive Woodward's Leadership Philosophy and Team Building Strategies

**Introduction:**
- Clive Woodward, the former England Rugby head coach who led the team to victory in the 2003 World Cup, discusses his leadership style, team-building strategies, and the challenges he faced during his coaching career.

**Key Points:**

1. **Setting Ambitious Goals and Creating a Dream:**
- Woodward emphasized the importance of setting ambitious goals and creating a compelling dream for the team.
- He believed that by setting a higher standard, he could motivate players to strive for excellence and achieve their full potential.

2. **Building a Team Culture:**
- Woodward implemented a unique approach to team culture called "teamship."
- Teamship involved creating a set of team rules and behaviors that were collectively agreed upon by the players.
- This approach fostered a sense of ownership and responsibility among the players, leading to a strong team bond.

3. **Empowering Players and Encouraging Diverse Opinions:**
- Woodward believed in empowering players and encouraging diverse opinions within the team.
- He created a culture where players felt comfortable sharing their ideas and challenging the status quo.
- This led to a more innovative and adaptable team that could respond effectively to different challenges.

4. **Leadership Style:**
- Woodward described his leadership style as "mild" and "team-oriented."
- He emphasized the importance of listening to players and valuing their input.
- He believed that a leader's role is to facilitate and support the team's success, rather than dominating decision-making.

5. **Adapting to New Challenges:**
- Woodward discussed the challenges he faced when coaching the British & Irish Lions team in 2005.
- He acknowledged that he may have tried to implement too much change too quickly, leading to some difficulties.
- He learned the importance of adapting his approach to different contexts and circumstances.

6. **The Value of Experience:**
- Woodward reflected on the value of experience, both positive and negative.
- He emphasized that learning from both successes and failures is essential for personal and professional growth.
- He encouraged individuals to embrace new experiences and challenges, as they contribute to a richer and more fulfilling life.

**Overall Message:**
Clive Woodward's leadership philosophy centered around creating a strong team culture, empowering players, and setting ambitious goals. He believed that by fostering a sense of ownership and responsibility among team members, he could unlock their full potential and achieve remarkable results. Woodward's emphasis on listening to players, valuing diverse opinions, and adapting to new challenges highlights the importance of flexibility and adaptability in leadership.

# Summary of the Podcast Episode with Sir Clive Woodward

**Key Points:**

- Sir Clive Woodward, former England rugby coach, emphasizes the importance of process-driven high-performance environments.

- High performance can be achieved by anyone through a process of learning, distilling knowledge into key points, and practicing to become better than others.

- Non-negotiable behaviors for high performance include relentless learning, a positive attitude, and effective pressure management.

- Continuous learning is crucial for staying competitive and improving performance.

- Failure can be a valuable learning experience, teaching important lessons for future success.

- Legacy is not something that can be controlled, but rather a result of hard work and dedication.

- The "golden rule" for high-performance living is to never lose, either by winning or learning from mistakes.

**Additional Notes:**

- Woodward's experience with the British & Irish Lions taught him the importance of adapting quickly and making the most of short-term opportunities.

- He transitioned from rugby to football, working as a director of football for Southampton FC, before joining the British Olympic Association as Director of Sport.

- Woodward believes that anyone can become a high-performance individual by following a process of learning, distilling knowledge, and practicing.

- He highlights the importance of non-negotiable behaviors such as punctuality and a positive attitude.

- Woodward emphasizes the value of continuous learning and encourages individuals to write down and store their knowledge for future reference.

- He reflects on his greatest failure, the 1999 Rugby World Cup quarterfinal loss, as a learning experience that led to positive changes in his approach.

- Woodward believes that legacy is a result of hard work and dedication, rather than something that can be actively pursued.

- He concludes with his "golden rule" for high-performance living: never lose, either by winning or learning from mistakes.

# High Performance Podcast: Sir Clive Woodward - The Art of Leadership and High Performance

## Introduction:
- The podcast episode features Sir Clive Woodward, the former head coach of England's rugby team.
- Woodward led England to World Cup glory in Australia in 2003.
- He is also the Founder and Chairman of Hive Learning, an app that digitizes his coaching methods.

## Key Points:
### 1. The Importance of Learning and Growth:
- Woodward emphasizes the significance of learning and growth in both personal and professional life.
- He believes in constantly seeking new knowledge and experiences to improve one's skills and abilities.
- Woodward highlights the value of listening to others, even if their perspectives differ from one's own.

### 2. The Power of Belief and Vision:
- Woodward stresses the importance of having a strong belief in one's goals and vision.
- He believes that belief is the foundation for achieving success and overcoming challenges.
- Woodward encourages individuals to set ambitious goals and work relentlessly towards them.

### 3. The Role of Responsibility and Accountability:
- Woodward emphasizes the significance of responsibility and accountability in high-performance environments.
- He believes that each individual in a team or organization should take ownership of their actions and decisions.
- Woodward highlights the importance of creating a culture where people are empowered to make decisions and held accountable for their outcomes.

### 4. The Art of Thinking Outside the Box:
- Woodward advocates for thinking outside the box and challenging conventional wisdom.
- He believes that innovation and progress come from questioning the status quo and exploring new possibilities.
- Woodward encourages individuals to be open-minded and embrace change to achieve breakthrough results.

### 5. Building a High-Performance Team:
- Woodward discusses the key elements of building a high-performance team.
- He emphasizes the importance of selecting the right people with diverse skills and perspectives.
- Woodward highlights the need for a strong team culture based on trust, respect, and shared values.
- He also stresses the significance of clear communication and effective leadership in creating a cohesive and high-performing team.

### 6. Creating a Positive and Supportive Environment:
- Woodward emphasizes the importance of fostering a positive and supportive environment for individuals to thrive.
- He believes that creating a culture of encouragement and recognition can help unlock people's potential.
- Woodward highlights the significance of providing opportunities for individuals to learn, grow, and develop their skills.

## Conclusion:
- Woodward's insights and experiences provide valuable lessons for individuals and organizations seeking to achieve high performance.
- He emphasizes the importance of learning, belief, responsibility, innovation, and teamwork in creating a culture of excellence.
- Woodward's message inspires individuals to challenge themselves, think creatively, and work collaboratively to achieve their full potential.

[00:00.000 -> 00:06.080] Hi there, another week, another high performance podcast dropping into your life. Listen, we
[00:06.080 -> 00:10.240] want the next little while to be the most life affirming, uplifting, challenging, but
[00:10.240 -> 00:14.520] inspiring part of your week. Here's what's in store today.
[00:14.520 -> 00:19.420] I am neurotic about time. You know, I'm never late for anybody ever. So I've had this big
[00:19.420 -> 00:23.200] conversation with players, so I set the whole scene and I said, you know, I can see Johnson
[00:23.200 -> 00:26.800] looking at me, so where's this going? I said, well, I'm going to leave the whole scene and I said you know I can see Johnson looking at me so you know where's this going I said well I'm gonna leave the room now I want
[00:26.800 -> 00:29.660] you to discuss time because I don't want to stand it for next eight years going
[00:29.660 -> 00:33.440] guys don't be late so that he came back to me said time ten minutes early and
[00:33.440 -> 00:36.260] then we think of a name we called it Lombardi time just meet any England
[00:36.260 -> 00:39.720] rugby players go Lombardi time and they'll go ten minutes early. Before we get into this
[00:39.720 -> 00:43.720] week's episode just a quick reminder that you can also find us on YouTube
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[03:17.360 -> 03:21.800] mint mobile for details. Hi there I'm Jay Comfrey you're listening to high
[03:21.800 -> 03:26.920] performance the podcast that delves into the minds of some of the most successful athletes visionaries entrepreneurs
[03:27.360 -> 03:32.480] Leaders and artists on the planet and aims to unlock the very secrets to their success now
[03:32.480 -> 03:36.600] I think everyone needs a professor in their life mine is also a psychologist. He's an author
[03:36.600 -> 03:43.520] He studied successful sporting cultures for years and today's guest actually created a culture Damien that made him
[03:43.840 -> 03:46.120] Champion of the world along with his team.
[03:46.120 -> 03:49.080] So I guess the conversation today is right up your street.
[03:49.080 -> 03:50.480] Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.
[03:50.480 -> 03:52.940] There's a phrase that's been really resonating
[03:52.940 -> 03:54.800] before we came here today, Jake.
[03:54.800 -> 03:57.680] It's a political phrase called the Overton Window,
[03:57.680 -> 03:59.600] which is where in politics,
[03:59.600 -> 04:01.600] if you want people to start believing in something,
[04:01.600 -> 04:04.780] you almost need to move the window in that direction
[04:04.780 -> 04:08.800] and then bring people along with you. And I think our guest today is somebody i ddeall y bydd pobl yn deall bethau, mae angen i chi ymdrechu'r ffenestr yn y dyfodol ac yna ddod â phobl ynghylch chi. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn rhywun sydd wedi
[04:08.800 -> 04:13.920] dangos y gallu i ddod â phobl ynghylch ffenestr a dod â nhw. Rwy'n
[04:13.920 -> 04:15.520] eithaf yn edrych arno i'w ymdrechu.
[04:15.520 -> 04:18.400] Iawn, gadewch i ni wneud hynny. Gadewch i ni gydnabod un man i'r podcast sydd
[04:18.400 -> 04:21.360] yn ymddiriedol o'i wlad ar y ffynestr rugby fel chwaraewr,
[04:21.360 -> 04:29.980] ond roedd yn y rhan o'r rheolwr Cymru ei bod yn ymgyrchu'r byd. Fe wnaeth y tîm rugby field as a player, but it was as England's manager that he conquered the world. He took the team from the sixth best in the world to winning the 2003 Rugby World Cup. He then
[04:29.980 -> 04:34.500] moved to football as Southampton's performance director, then to the British Olympic Association
[04:34.500 -> 04:38.240] as Team GB's director of sport. He helped deliver their most successful ever Olympic
[04:38.240 -> 04:43.580] performance in 2012. These days he's a public speaker, you see him on your television screens.
[04:43.580 -> 04:47.540] He's the founder of Hive Learning,'s an incredibly busy man so we're so lucky
[04:47.540 -> 04:53.020] that he took time to be with us today what he loves to do is share his
[04:53.020 -> 04:56.220] knowledge with the world so we're so lucky that Sir Clive Woodward has agreed
[04:56.220 -> 04:59.460] to share his knowledge with us today Clive welcome to High Performance
[04:59.460 -> 05:03.100] Thanks Jake and very pleased to be here let's start with the Overton window then
[05:03.100 -> 05:08.920] how do you move the window and how do you make people come with you on the journey for
[05:08.920 -> 05:11.800] whatever new view that window offers them?
[05:11.800 -> 05:15.400] I've never heard that saying before but I kind of understand.
[05:15.400 -> 05:20.960] I think the key thing I want to just kind of stress is that, as he's right to say Jake,
[05:20.960 -> 05:27.320] I'm probably best known for 2003, coaching the team that won it in 2003.
[05:27.320 -> 05:29.360] But that was like a six year journey.
[05:29.360 -> 05:30.960] But before that, I had sort of 16 years
[05:30.960 -> 05:32.360] in the business world.
[05:32.360 -> 05:33.520] You mentioned about playing for England.
[05:33.520 -> 05:36.080] When I played for England, it was a totally amateur game.
[05:36.080 -> 05:38.120] It really was amateur, we did it for fun.
[05:39.040 -> 05:40.520] When I left university, I joined Xerox.
[05:40.520 -> 05:41.920] I worked for Rank Xerox for eight years,
[05:41.920 -> 05:44.440] including five in Australia,
[05:44.440 -> 05:46.080] where I was a sales director based out of Sydney.
[05:46.080 -> 05:48.680] And then when we came back from Australia,
[05:48.680 -> 05:51.480] I set up my own small leasing and finance company
[05:51.480 -> 05:54.080] based on the skills I learned with Xerox Finance,
[05:54.080 -> 05:55.800] which I also ran for eight years.
[05:55.800 -> 05:57.080] Then lucky enough, my sport, rugby,
[05:57.080 -> 05:59.080] went professional in 1996,
[05:59.080 -> 06:00.000] and I was offered the job
[06:00.000 -> 06:01.920] as the first full-time professional coach.
[06:01.920 -> 06:04.880] So a lot of my kind of thought processes
[06:04.880 -> 06:06.400] very much came from my business background,
[06:06.400 -> 06:08.500] especially running your own small company.
[06:08.500 -> 06:10.580] When I say small, it was kind of literally
[06:10.580 -> 06:11.760] two miles up the road from here.
[06:11.760 -> 06:15.500] It was 10 people at our height, no hierarchy,
[06:15.500 -> 06:17.400] just 10 people in the room,
[06:17.400 -> 06:19.600] a finance broker taking on the actual big bank.
[06:19.600 -> 06:21.380] So when I got the England job,
[06:21.380 -> 06:23.040] I didn't see it as quite a big deal
[06:23.040 -> 06:24.240] as other people thought.
[06:24.240 -> 06:26.000] I think coaching a rugby team is a business.
[06:26.000 -> 06:28.000] I was very clear about that with the players.
[06:28.000 -> 06:29.440] It's like a business.
[06:29.440 -> 06:30.840] You're here to deliver results through people.
[06:30.840 -> 06:34.240] If you think about it, that's what business is about, what sport is about.
[06:34.240 -> 06:35.840] I was there to deliver results through people.
[06:35.840 -> 06:41.240] I think what I learned to do with my small company, very much so, was to listen to the
[06:41.240 -> 06:42.600] team.
[06:42.600 -> 06:46.960] When you're a small business, you listen to everybody. And I pride myself on being a good listener.
[06:47.760 -> 06:50.640] I almost pride myself at not being good at new ideas.
[06:50.640 -> 06:52.240] But when I hear a good idea,
[06:52.240 -> 06:53.440] wherever it comes from,
[06:53.440 -> 06:55.920] what I think I am quite good at is making that happen.
[06:55.920 -> 06:57.760] If I think that in a sporting terms
[06:57.760 -> 06:58.960] gonna make the boat go faster,
[06:58.960 -> 07:00.160] we're gonna do it.
[07:00.160 -> 07:02.480] So to a full, I want everyone in the room engaged.
[07:03.040 -> 07:06.400] And some of the players were very enthused about this,
[07:06.400 -> 07:08.280] some of them very unusual,
[07:08.280 -> 07:10.520] they've never been asked before their opinion on things.
[07:10.520 -> 07:12.280] So I'd want to get opinions,
[07:12.280 -> 07:14.200] but be very, very clear, I was there to lead.
[07:14.200 -> 07:15.360] You can get all opinions,
[07:15.360 -> 07:17.240] but I was there to say, okay, we're gonna do it this way,
[07:17.240 -> 07:19.080] but I want your thoughts on it.
[07:19.080 -> 07:21.000] And I think that's what you described about opening the window,
[07:21.000 -> 07:22.000] you're gonna take players with you.
[07:22.000 -> 07:23.960] And I think it was quite new to them.
[07:23.960 -> 07:27.080] To me, it was kind of second nature based on this small business I'd run.
[07:27.080 -> 07:30.960] And you want to hear other people's views and you're always getting the players' views.
[07:30.960 -> 07:35.760] And I think also, you know, I was still young enough then to kind of think as a player.
[07:35.760 -> 07:41.160] I'd like to think of as a player, I'd want to play for me, I'd be involved in it and not just be told what to do.
[07:41.160 -> 07:42.920] So that's my number one point.
[07:42.920 -> 07:44.880] You've got to take players with you.
[07:44.880 -> 07:45.060] And I made it very, very got to take players with you.
[07:47.940 -> 07:49.220] And I made it very, very clear to the players, you know, there's no such thing as a dumb idea.
[07:49.620 -> 07:52.140] If you've got an idea or thought, I want you to have the bottle to stand up.
[07:52.140 -> 07:55.120] Even if you leave yourself open to ridicule from the rest of the team,
[07:55.580 -> 07:56.840] you and me are going to fall out.
[07:56.840 -> 07:59.300] If you've got an idea and you're going to walk out the door because you're
[07:59.620 -> 08:01.500] worried about embarrassing yourself.
[08:01.500 -> 08:04.400] So that was a very new culture back in 97.
[08:04.400 -> 08:05.600] It was all the players were new
[08:05.600 -> 08:07.200] to being professional athletes.
[08:07.200 -> 08:09.040] And to have me kind of at the front saying,
[08:09.040 -> 08:11.160] I think we can become the best in the world
[08:11.160 -> 08:13.800] for no other reason, because we've got great players,
[08:13.800 -> 08:15.640] we've got the financial resources.
[08:15.640 -> 08:16.800] There's no reason why we can't,
[08:16.800 -> 08:18.600] but we've got to actually start from scratch.
[08:18.600 -> 08:21.800] And I need your input as well as my input.
[08:21.800 -> 08:23.200] But that's, I think, what the answer is
[08:23.200 -> 08:25.000] about how you open the window.
[08:25.000 -> 08:29.000] You've got to take your team with you and every single one of them has got a role to play in this.
[08:29.000 -> 08:32.000] And how did you handle those that didn't come with you though Clive?
[08:32.000 -> 08:38.000] Because some people will naturally resist anything new or different, which is what you were offering.
[08:38.000 -> 08:41.000] So how did you deal with the resistance?
[08:41.000 -> 08:45.080] Yeah, it wasn't a case of just one meeting and describing this. This takes time to get over.
[08:45.080 -> 08:45.720] And you're right.
[08:45.720 -> 08:48.480] I mean, Johnny Wilkinson is a prime example.
[08:48.480 -> 08:51.000] I mean, I'll never ever say a word against Johnny Wilkinson.
[08:51.000 -> 08:52.480] He's one of my all-time heroes.
[08:52.800 -> 08:56.400] But when he first came in, I capped him when he was 17, just 18.
[08:57.000 -> 08:59.280] He was, and he's written about this.
[08:59.280 -> 09:00.480] This is no secrets.
[09:00.480 -> 09:01.640] He was so shy.
[09:01.960 -> 09:04.160] He was so sort of, you know, should I be in this room?
[09:04.160 -> 09:07.080] Cause he's sitting there opposite Martin Johnson, Lawrence D'Alaio, got this young
[09:07.080 -> 09:10.120] 18 year old, never played for England before. And you know, you need your number
[09:10.120 -> 09:13.080] 10, which is your quarterback in American football. You need your number
[09:13.080 -> 09:16.160] 10 to be pretty vocal because he is your leader on the, on the field of play.
[09:16.160 -> 09:18.920] And so Johnny had to make a big step, but it wasn't easy for him.
[09:19.120 -> 09:22.280] And we had to really sort of do a lot of work on him in terms of almost like his
[09:22.280 -> 09:26.480] public speaking skills that he could stand in front of the team and say these things.
[09:26.480 -> 09:30.580] The way I basically did it was I have this saying that great teams made a great individuals.
[09:30.580 -> 09:33.680] I mean I'll never underscore the importance of teamwork and working together as a team
[09:33.680 -> 09:34.680] of people.
[09:34.680 -> 09:37.900] But I think if there's a secret to teamwork, if you get every individual working at his
[09:37.900 -> 09:42.280] or her optimum level and becoming world class, the team stuff becomes a lot easier to do.
[09:42.280 -> 09:46.520] And I've always had this vision of sort of, and it happened to me, being in charge of a team, you're looking around the room
[09:46.520 -> 09:49.960] and you've got half the team would be in any team in the world, they're the best in the
[09:49.960 -> 09:54.440] world. So the individual has got to take responsibility for their individual training. And this is
[09:54.440 -> 09:57.960] what I got across to the players, that if we want to be successful, yes, you've got
[09:57.960 -> 10:02.000] to be this individual, you've got to become the best in the world, better than any other
[10:02.000 -> 10:05.000] prop forward, second row, fly half in the world.
[10:05.000 -> 10:07.000] But also you've got to contribute to the team.
[10:07.000 -> 10:09.000] If you're not, we're not going to win.
[10:09.000 -> 10:10.000] I used to like bringing players here.
[10:10.000 -> 10:12.000] Every single player would come to a house,
[10:12.000 -> 10:15.000] just to sit down one-on-one, meet Jane, meet the kids,
[10:15.000 -> 10:19.000] and get across to them, this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity here.
[10:19.000 -> 10:21.000] But I need it from you as well as me.
[10:21.000 -> 10:23.000] You're going to get buckets from me and the coaching team,
[10:23.000 -> 10:26.240] but to be really successful, it's gotta be a two-way thing.
[10:26.240 -> 10:27.840] And I think that's what we did.
[10:27.840 -> 10:32.840] And I, you know, I can't praise that team high enough, hugely talented players,
[10:32.840 -> 10:36.840] but the real secret was led by Johnston, led by D'Alaio,
[10:36.840 -> 10:38.840] you know, they got this, they did contribute,
[10:38.840 -> 10:41.840] they weren't yes-men, they did question me, the other coaches,
[10:41.840 -> 10:43.840] in a real positive way.
[10:43.840 -> 10:46.400] And that's the way you can develop a team of people.
[10:46.400 -> 10:47.400] But you've got to do it one by one.
[10:47.400 -> 10:51.000] You've got to persuade every individual that I need you to be part of this.
[10:51.000 -> 10:55.000] Or if you're not, I'd question you being in this team.
[10:55.000 -> 10:58.400] I think that's interesting, the fact that you decided to bring the players here,
[10:58.400 -> 11:01.400] not en masse as a group for a barbecue, but as individuals.
[11:01.400 -> 11:07.400] I remember Martin Keown saying to me that one of the magic things about Arsene Wenger was that just as you were leaving the dressing room for a game Arsene
[11:07.400 -> 11:11.600] would pull you to one side and say hey today's your day, today you are the single most important
[11:11.600 -> 11:15.200] player on the pitch, I really need you to perform and Martin said it was only a few
[11:15.200 -> 11:19.640] years later that he realised Arsene Wenger was saying that to every player in the build
[11:19.640 -> 11:23.960] up to that game at different points and then eventually when the eleven run out to play
[11:23.960 -> 11:27.480] the game all eleven are thinking right he said I'm the I'm the main man today not
[11:27.480 -> 11:31.240] knowing the other 10 have been told the same story. It was interesting about coming
[11:31.240 -> 11:35.960] to home I did it for many reasons what I basically remember giving the players
[11:35.960 -> 11:39.480] almost like a Google map and say that's where I live that's where I live you
[11:39.480 -> 11:43.000] know me you know my wife here's my mobile I'm not going anywhere I'm not
[11:43.000 -> 11:46.660] here to hide if there's anything that you've got a real problem with,
[11:46.660 -> 11:48.060] I want you to come and see me.
[11:48.060 -> 11:49.140] Anything.
[11:49.140 -> 11:50.460] So you can never say,
[11:50.460 -> 11:51.660] you didn't consult me about this,
[11:51.660 -> 11:52.620] or I wasn't told about this.
[11:52.620 -> 11:54.260] Any problems, come and see me.
[11:54.260 -> 11:56.180] And that kind of killed it dead.
[11:56.180 -> 11:59.040] In the seven, eight years of coaching England,
[11:59.040 -> 12:01.220] I think I had probably five players rang me,
[12:01.220 -> 12:02.420] say, can I come and see you?
[12:02.420 -> 12:04.060] And every single one of those reasons
[12:04.060 -> 12:06.000] was for personal reason. nothing to do with rugby,
[12:06.000 -> 12:07.400] it was a personal reason.
[12:07.400 -> 12:09.840] We had some tragic times, you know,
[12:09.840 -> 12:12.080] Will Greenwood, for example, lost his baby,
[12:12.080 -> 12:14.480] Martin Johnson's dad dying and all sorts of stuff.
[12:14.480 -> 12:16.320] So that's what happens.
[12:16.320 -> 12:18.580] So when they need your help, they come and see you.
[12:18.580 -> 12:20.520] I invite them all here to talk about rugby,
[12:20.520 -> 12:21.760] which they obviously came,
[12:21.760 -> 12:23.360] but it's interesting, it just kind of diffused that.
[12:23.360 -> 12:25.480] I said, here, I'm not gonna hide anywhere. And it's interesting. It just kind of diffused that. I said, here is, I'm not, I'm not going to hide anywhere.
[12:25.920 -> 12:28.720] And it's obviously, you know, when you think about English coaches, not
[12:28.720 -> 12:32.080] English coaches, there's real pressure on you because, you know, you, you know,
[12:32.080 -> 12:33.720] where to go, this is where I'm going to live forever.
[12:34.200 -> 12:36.600] You know, if I screw up here, the neighbours are going to know, the
[12:36.600 -> 12:37.680] country's going to know where I live.
[12:37.680 -> 12:40.680] I'm not going to sort of lose and then get on a plane and fly to New
[12:40.680 -> 12:42.080] Zealand or South Australia.
[12:42.120 -> 12:49.520] And I think it's a big, big thing because, you know, I'm I'm you know hugely passionate about the English country the English sports team our football team, especially
[12:50.160 -> 12:53.860] And I think there's a big big thing there. I made it clear to the players. This is where I am
[12:54.200 -> 12:57.960] You know, we're here to win. There's no other reason was doing this because we think we can win
[12:59.120 -> 13:01.240] But if you've got anything to discuss with me
[13:02.040 -> 13:03.600] Come come and see me this relative
[13:03.600 -> 13:05.920] Where do you stand on this idea that as a lady?
[13:05.920 -> 13:10.180] There has to be a sense of detachment because you're gonna have to make some
[13:11.240 -> 13:15.200] Emotionless decisions about the future of those same people as well as honor
[13:16.080 -> 13:20.520] Absolutely when I says, you know, I'd like to think I was close to players, but I've never went out for drink with the play
[13:20.640 -> 13:26.240] I'd never go out socializing with the play to bring him him here was a social event because I wanted to get to know them
[13:26.240 -> 13:29.400] better. I wanted Jane, who is hugely important in this whole process, to get
[13:29.400 -> 13:32.760] to know them better. And they used to come with their wives and girlfriends by the
[13:32.760 -> 13:35.280] way, so it wasn't just on their own, just you know, so we get to know them.
[13:35.280 -> 13:38.760] Jane was awesome at this because she got to know the...
[13:38.760 -> 13:43.200] And why was it so important for Jane to be involved in this process as the wife of the England manager?
[13:43.200 -> 13:48.000] Because she could find out things that I could never find out through their wives, girls and their parents.
[13:48.000 -> 13:50.000] Jane got very close to the parents.
[13:50.000 -> 13:54.000] I speak to any of the guys who played for me, I asked them about Jane.
[13:54.000 -> 13:58.000] She didn't get close to the players, obviously that was for me, but she got close to their partners.
[13:58.000 -> 14:03.000] And it was a really good thing to do because she got really close to them and she understood their problems as well.
[14:03.000 -> 14:05.400] Because if you're going to create this high performing person,
[14:05.400 -> 14:08.520] I'm with the England players, Jake, for a very short period of time
[14:08.520 -> 14:10.600] during the week, say, hours.
[14:11.000 -> 14:14.200] Their girlfriends, their partners, their kids, their mum and dad's with them all the time.
[14:14.200 -> 14:16.000] So they can be big influences on this.
[14:16.000 -> 14:18.000] They got to understand what the players going through.
[14:18.400 -> 14:19.600] Make no bones about it.
[14:19.600 -> 14:21.200] We had to make big sacrifices here.
[14:21.200 -> 14:23.300] I thought we could win the World Cup.
[14:23.300 -> 14:24.700] I thought we could be the best team in the world,
[14:24.700 -> 14:26.800] but I need every single player in this kind of very short period of your life to dedicate everything sacrifices here. I thought we could win the World Cup. I thought we could be the best team in the world, but I need every single player
[14:26.800 -> 14:28.460] in this kind of very short period of your life
[14:28.460 -> 14:29.580] to dedicate everything to it.
[14:29.580 -> 14:31.900] No distractions, no sideshows.
[14:31.900 -> 14:33.400] And that's what I'd learned through my business world.
[14:33.400 -> 14:35.340] If you're gonna be successful, you can't be distracted.
[14:35.340 -> 14:37.220] You've got to be totally focused.
[14:37.220 -> 14:39.440] You need your family with you, everyone with you.
[14:39.440 -> 14:40.480] And that's what we kind of did.
[14:40.480 -> 14:43.560] And Jane was huge in that, looking back now.
[14:43.560 -> 14:45.080] And at the time, you're just doing it,
[14:45.080 -> 14:47.880] but also going back to your small leasing company,
[14:47.880 -> 14:50.440] especially, you know, 10 people did the same thing.
[14:50.440 -> 14:51.280] You know, I was the boss,
[14:51.280 -> 14:52.480] but I used to bring around here to talk to,
[14:52.480 -> 14:54.360] not to try and get close to more mates.
[14:54.360 -> 14:57.800] So you did the same stuff in business as you did in sport.
[14:57.800 -> 15:00.360] Are you basically saying there's no difference really
[15:00.360 -> 15:02.140] between finding success in sport
[15:02.140 -> 15:04.760] and finding success in business or in life?
[15:04.760 -> 15:05.200] It's the same process.
[15:05.200 -> 15:07.240] I'm absolutely saying that.
[15:07.240 -> 15:09.520] Sport is about delivering results through people.
[15:09.520 -> 15:11.120] Business is about delivering results through people.
[15:11.120 -> 15:12.120] There's no difference.
[15:12.120 -> 15:16.080] It's just sport is a bit more high profile in many ways because you can't hide from the
[15:16.080 -> 15:17.080] results.
[15:17.080 -> 15:18.080] There it is every Saturday afternoon.
[15:18.080 -> 15:21.320] You're either winning 20-0, you're losing 20-0, the media.
[15:21.320 -> 15:22.640] So there's different pressures to it.
[15:22.640 -> 15:25.560] But it's exactly the same skill sets needed.
[15:25.600 -> 15:27.680] And that's why I believe you, you can cross over.
[15:28.160 -> 15:33.320] And I'd love to see some, you know, real high profile business people put in charge of Arsenal
[15:33.320 -> 15:35.400] football club or the England rugby team.
[15:35.400 -> 15:36.560] Cause I think they'd be successful.
[15:36.560 -> 15:38.400] On the sporting side as well as the business side.
[15:38.640 -> 15:39.600] On the sporting side.
[15:39.680 -> 15:41.520] As long as the number one thing is passion.
[15:41.520 -> 15:45.640] You've got to have a, if you're passionate about this sport, or you're passionate about your business,
[15:45.640 -> 15:46.480] you'll be successful.
[15:46.480 -> 15:47.920] You need this passion for it.
[15:47.920 -> 15:50.200] You can't just put someone in there and say,
[15:50.200 -> 15:51.040] here you go.
[15:51.040 -> 15:54.000] If it's not your absolutely lifeblood
[15:54.000 -> 15:54.840] that you're trying to do,
[15:54.840 -> 15:55.760] if you're passionate about it,
[15:55.760 -> 15:57.240] and you've got that skill set,
[15:57.240 -> 15:58.760] and you've been successful in another business,
[15:58.760 -> 16:01.040] that's why I think you can switch between sports,
[16:01.040 -> 16:02.280] and you can switch between businesses.
[16:02.280 -> 16:04.440] Nothing will ever touch coaching England,
[16:04.440 -> 16:06.000] and seeing England win, and the World Cup and that. That's kind of upid o'r rhain i'r busnesau. Nid oes unrhyw beth yn ymddangos ymgyrchu Cymru a gweld Cymru yn gynnal y cymorth a'r Cymru byd.
[16:06.000 -> 16:08.000] Mae hynny'n ymddangos yno,
[16:08.000 -> 16:10.000] ond mae'n anodd.
[16:10.000 -> 16:12.000] Gallwch chi fynd yno a gwneud pethau eraill
[16:12.000 -> 16:14.000] yn eich bywyd.
[16:14.000 -> 16:16.000] Ond mae'r sport yn busnes, ac nid ydw i'n dweud hynny
[16:16.000 -> 16:18.000] fel negatif, ond, os ydych chi'n meddwl
[16:18.000 -> 16:20.000] o'r definiad, mae'n darparu cyfansoddiadau gyda phobl.
[16:20.000 -> 16:22.000] Byddai pobl, efallai, yn rhedeg busnesau
[16:22.000 -> 16:24.000] ar hynny, a dweud, fel
[16:24.000 -> 16:26.480] Llywodraeth y tîm Cymru, ryddech chi'r sancsiyn cyflawniol
[16:26.480 -> 16:30.800] y gallech chi ddod â rhywun neu gallech chi'n ymwneud â nhw o sgwrs,
[16:30.800 -> 16:35.600] er mwyn dweud y bydd y dyddiadau gweithredu ddim yn ymwneud â'r pwyllgor
[16:35.600 -> 16:39.520] fel pwyllgor i chi. Felly, er mwyn i'r element o bobl y gallaf eu gwybod
[16:39.520 -> 16:43.280] fod yn bwysig, sut y byddwch chi'n ymgyrchu ar bobl sydd
[16:43.280 -> 16:47.840] â personau anodd sy'n dod â nhw, yn ymdrech o'ch cymorth gweithredu o bobl gynnar? How would you advise on people that have got difficult characters that are not coming with them despite your best people management efforts?
[16:47.840 -> 16:52.960] Yeah, I've often been asked that question, you know about you know, how do you handle the Mavericks and it was interesting because
[16:54.080 -> 16:58.440] Because you're looking at the winner World Cup, you know, it wasn't like that wasn't all plain sailing
[16:58.440 -> 17:04.760] We had we had a strike where all sort of stuff we lost the Scotland away, which I still have nightmares about this stuff happens
[17:04.760 -> 17:09.840] So it's not it's not this plain. You seem to think when you win in 1999,
[17:09.840 -> 17:12.800] we lost in the quarterfinals of the World Cup, I'd been in the job just over a year,
[17:12.800 -> 17:16.480] everyone's after my head, after Saki me, you have to get through this sort of stuff. So
[17:17.120 -> 17:20.720] it's like a business. You never go from there to there. It's kind of on the way. There's also big,
[17:20.720 -> 17:24.160] big bumps in the road. But the same with the people. You'll have issues with people.
[17:21.680 -> 17:22.080] the way, there's also big, big bumps in the road.
[17:24.360 -> 17:24.840] The same with the people, you'll have issues with people.
[17:29.400 -> 17:31.960] You know, when I started in 99, you know, sorry, in 97, the team was totally different six years later in terms of what actually came in.
[17:31.960 -> 17:33.640] So yeah, you're right.
[17:33.640 -> 17:36.280] I can drop a player tomorrow if I want to, but you don't really want to do that.
[17:36.280 -> 17:39.720] You don't actually want to just drop a player for no reason, but players got to
[17:39.720 -> 17:42.040] know that they got to come and go.
[17:42.040 -> 17:43.640] But I think in the business world, the same thing.
[17:44.000 -> 17:46.800] You got to sit down with your team and your players
[17:46.800 -> 17:48.160] and from a business point of view,
[17:48.160 -> 17:49.160] and you go, you know,
[17:49.160 -> 17:50.000] we're trying to be successful
[17:50.000 -> 17:52.080] for your own individual efforts here.
[17:52.080 -> 17:54.760] I need you to actually deliver on all this stuff.
[17:54.760 -> 17:56.240] If someone's not going to go on that journey,
[17:56.240 -> 17:58.560] and also I think your job as the head coach
[17:58.560 -> 17:59.560] or the leader of the business
[17:59.560 -> 18:01.320] is to make that person better.
[18:01.320 -> 18:03.040] I make no bones about it.
[18:03.040 -> 18:04.440] You know, in a footballing terms,
[18:04.440 -> 18:06.560] you know, can I make David Beckham a better player?
[18:06.560 -> 18:08.200] Yes. Can I make him better at taking penalties?
[18:08.200 -> 18:09.800] Yes. That's your job as a coach.
[18:09.800 -> 18:11.320] The moment you're not doing that,
[18:11.320 -> 18:12.680] that's when you have problems.
[18:12.680 -> 18:14.640] So long as the players realise and they think,
[18:14.640 -> 18:16.240] you, I'm trying to make Johnny Wilkins
[18:16.240 -> 18:17.760] and Martin Johnson better players
[18:17.760 -> 18:18.720] by what we're actually doing,
[18:18.720 -> 18:20.280] by the expertise we're bringing in,
[18:20.280 -> 18:23.320] you'll get it back in tons and tons.
[18:23.320 -> 18:25.520] You'll get it back everything.
[18:25.520 -> 18:27.760] They know you can't bullshit players.
[18:27.760 -> 18:28.600] And that's the one thing I've,
[18:28.600 -> 18:31.280] that's I think one of the beauties of being an ex-player.
[18:31.280 -> 18:33.160] They know whether you're delivering or not.
[18:33.160 -> 18:36.080] You know, football players, you know, I love football.
[18:36.080 -> 18:39.160] You know, in their changing room with Pep and Klopp
[18:39.160 -> 18:40.720] and these guys, they know they're delivering.
[18:40.720 -> 18:42.540] They'll have huge respect for those guys.
[18:42.540 -> 18:44.680] So even if you're left out or dropped,
[18:44.680 -> 18:47.280] there's not a lot you can say because they know that guy's delivering.
[18:47.280 -> 18:52.400] The way it all falls, not just in football, any rugby, if you do lose the changing room
[18:52.400 -> 18:57.560] and you can do that, that's an absolute fact I can totally understand. If you're
[18:57.560 -> 19:00.080] not really delivering, you've been distracted, you're just doing other stuff,
[19:00.080 -> 19:04.400] then it can all go wrong very, very quickly. I think it happened to Mourinho at Chelsea.
[19:04.400 -> 19:06.440] I mean... Well, there was an interesting story
[19:06.440 -> 19:07.680] from your own background, Clive,
[19:07.680 -> 19:10.240] where Austin Healey had said that
[19:10.240 -> 19:13.240] you weren't fully committed to England
[19:13.240 -> 19:15.360] because you had a business on the side as well.
[19:15.360 -> 19:17.320] And then you sold your business
[19:17.320 -> 19:19.120] and that was a statement of intent.
[19:19.120 -> 19:20.120] Yeah, I don't think the Austin Healey question,
[19:20.120 -> 19:21.640] I told the players,
[19:21.640 -> 19:24.280] because when the game went professional in 97,
[19:24.280 -> 19:29.940] I can't even try to explain, no one had clue including me what that even meant. Right, you know one minute. We're amateur
[19:29.940 -> 19:37.740] I'm leaving here going to work down the road. I'm coaching bath as an amateur then Sunnis announced on the radio. It's professional
[19:38.660 -> 19:42.700] We were completely caught, you know between the devil and the deep blue sea England
[19:42.700 -> 19:43.900] Never clue what's going on
[19:43.900 -> 19:45.920] The RFU decided to take a year off
[19:45.920 -> 19:48.000] before they could understand what was going on.
[19:48.000 -> 19:48.840] But a year later,
[19:48.840 -> 19:51.300] I was appointed the first full-time professional coach.
[19:51.300 -> 19:52.840] And I remember them coming here
[19:52.840 -> 19:54.920] and it was kind of quite amusing
[19:54.920 -> 19:56.140] about the whole negotiations
[19:56.140 -> 19:59.760] because they were literally paying me less than the teacher.
[19:59.760 -> 20:02.320] You know, and suddenly they didn't know what I was doing.
[20:02.320 -> 20:03.320] They didn't understand my business.
[20:03.320 -> 20:05.000] So I said to them, it's quite amusing.
[20:05.000 -> 20:06.120] They offered me this letter saying,
[20:06.120 -> 20:06.940] we're going to pay you this.
[20:06.940 -> 20:08.440] I said, well, that's great.
[20:08.440 -> 20:10.120] I'll bring the kids and family out and say,
[20:10.120 -> 20:12.360] hey, dad's a Stingman rugby coach now,
[20:12.360 -> 20:13.480] but we've got to move house.
[20:13.480 -> 20:14.640] You all got to change schools
[20:14.640 -> 20:16.040] because we can't afford anything.
[20:16.040 -> 20:18.240] So I showed them literally my payslips.
[20:18.240 -> 20:20.400] This is what I get as a basic salary for my company.
[20:20.400 -> 20:21.240] And they just laughed.
[20:21.240 -> 20:22.080] They said, we're never going to pay you that.
[20:22.080 -> 20:23.400] I said, well, I can't do the job.
[20:23.400 -> 20:25.560] You've approached me, I've not applied to this job.
[20:25.560 -> 20:27.200] So eventually we got it done, they did.
[20:27.200 -> 20:28.840] So we got it done.
[20:28.840 -> 20:30.320] And I didn't leave the business.
[20:30.320 -> 20:32.480] And I said, I'm taking a year off basically
[20:32.480 -> 20:33.680] to see whether this is going to work
[20:33.680 -> 20:35.120] because I've got to be totally dedicated
[20:35.120 -> 20:36.220] to the company.
[20:36.220 -> 20:37.280] So I made it very, very clear.
[20:37.280 -> 20:38.960] And after a year, I remember sitting in front of the players
[20:38.960 -> 20:39.840] going, just to let you know,
[20:39.840 -> 20:43.720] I've now removed myself totally from this company.
[20:43.720 -> 20:44.720] I've sold the company
[20:44.720 -> 20:46.560] because I'm 100% dedicated to this process
[20:46.560 -> 20:49.480] because I now understand what being a professional coach is about.
[20:49.480 -> 20:51.360] I understand the England scene and we moved on.
[20:51.360 -> 20:53.400] So it wasn't the case of Austin questioning me,
[20:53.400 -> 20:55.880] it was me actually telling them I'm actually doing that.
[20:55.880 -> 20:59.640] But in that year, before I actually sold the business over to Anne,
[20:59.640 -> 21:00.800] I was 100% committed to it.
[21:00.800 -> 21:03.120] I didn't do a thing outside of coaching the rugby team.
[21:03.120 -> 21:04.160] That's why I wanted them.
[21:04.160 -> 21:05.480] I'd made it clear to them, if you're going to be successful, you've got to be 100% committed to it. Didn't do a thing outside of coaching the rugby team. That's why I wanted them. I'd made it clear to them,
[21:05.480 -> 21:06.320] if you're gonna be successful,
[21:06.320 -> 21:09.360] you've got to be 100% dedicated to this cause.
[21:09.360 -> 21:11.920] And you're not gonna stay in the team or around me
[21:11.920 -> 21:13.640] unless I think you're totally committed
[21:13.640 -> 21:15.000] to what we're actually doing here.
[21:15.000 -> 21:16.000] People who are listening to this
[21:16.000 -> 21:17.280] who are not involved in sports,
[21:17.280 -> 21:18.440] but they are involved in teams
[21:18.440 -> 21:19.920] and they're involved in running
[21:19.920 -> 21:21.720] or owning their own businesses.
[21:21.720 -> 21:22.560] When you talk about,
[21:22.560 -> 21:24.800] you've got to take people with you on the journey,
[21:24.800 -> 21:29.000] what tips or tricks did you employ to bring people with you to get
[21:29.000 -> 21:32.160] the buy-in from people that others listening to this can employ in their
[21:32.160 -> 21:33.640] own world in their own businesses?
[21:33.640 -> 21:36.680] I think it comes back to as you say great teams
[21:36.680 -> 21:40.160] are made of great individuals. It's case to now sit now with every single player
[21:40.160 -> 21:48.000] and explain into them what I think we can achieve here and I'm saying I can't it on my own, I can't do it because I think I'm a good coach.
[21:48.000 -> 21:51.000] I've got to bring you with me and you're going to be part of this actual journey.
[21:51.000 -> 21:56.000] And we are going to set incredible standards, both individually and teamwork, to actually do this.
[21:56.000 -> 22:01.000] I said really early on, and it's been well documented, that I told the team I thought we could become the best team in the world.
[22:01.000 -> 22:04.000] And that's a bigger accolade than winning a World Cup, by the way.
[22:04.000 -> 22:06.760] You know, a team ranks 10th in the world to win a World Cup,
[22:07.080 -> 22:08.720] but to become the number one ranked team in the world,
[22:08.720 -> 22:09.760] which has never been before.
[22:10.080 -> 22:12.080] Remember when I said this early on, people ridiculed me.
[22:12.240 -> 22:15.000] They said, well, you're never going to be better than the all Blacks in South Africa and Australia.
[22:15.400 -> 22:16.320] That's what I think we can.
[22:16.320 -> 22:17.800] Now we've perfected, we were great amateurs.
[22:17.800 -> 22:20.000] We were so amateur at what we did, the English.
[22:20.360 -> 22:24.600] But also I was saying, if we go professional, we'll be the best professional people.
[22:24.840 -> 22:26.480] And it wasn't difficult taking players with you
[22:26.480 -> 22:27.920] because they wanted that dream.
[22:27.920 -> 22:30.360] They wanted that kind of massive carrot.
[22:30.360 -> 22:32.320] And I just kept looking around the changing room.
[22:32.320 -> 22:34.400] I saw Martin Johnson, D'Alaio, Wilkinson,
[22:34.400 -> 22:36.640] and going, you know, bringing Jason Robinson in.
[22:36.640 -> 22:38.160] He's going, we can do this.
[22:38.160 -> 22:40.040] Let's face it, you do need the players,
[22:40.040 -> 22:42.680] but if not the players, we won't make those statements.
[22:42.680 -> 22:44.240] But I think England have always had the players.
[22:44.240 -> 22:45.980] Ever since I played in the early 80s
[22:46.180 -> 22:50.440] But we've never gone that next step. We almost only intimidated by the all-blacks at the Africans
[22:50.440 -> 22:51.480] We never thought we could beat them
[22:51.480 -> 22:57.000] So it was getting over that hurdle and I promise you when I was coaching England's first started off
[22:57.320 -> 23:00.800] Six nations was fine, but that was just to me great
[23:00.800 -> 23:05.120] We've got to play those games the real enemy with were the All Blacks, South African, Australia.
[23:05.120 -> 23:06.560] I made that very, very clear.
[23:06.560 -> 23:09.160] We'd won lots of grand slams as English players,
[23:09.160 -> 23:11.840] but no one had ever, ever taken on this in the hemisphere.
[23:11.840 -> 23:13.160] When we had the games coming up,
[23:13.160 -> 23:14.960] we totally focused on those games.
[23:14.960 -> 23:16.720] They were the one I wanted to be judged by,
[23:16.720 -> 23:18.840] especially when we played away from home.
[23:18.840 -> 23:20.160] So, okay, I think we can beat,
[23:20.160 -> 23:21.440] we should beat teams at Twickenham,
[23:21.440 -> 23:23.080] but can we go to Auckland?
[23:23.080 -> 23:24.280] Can we go to Cape Town?
[23:24.280 -> 23:48.320] Can we go to Sydney and win? And suddenly you're building the dreams up and players start to, you know, go with you. So you've got to set a dream. byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn dweud, byddwn yn is prompted by evidence so you have to find evidence that something is possible to then move towards it so given that you were going into a fresh terrain of
[23:48.320 -> 23:53.660] going to New Zealand and beating the All Blacks and South Africa the same where
[23:53.660 -> 23:57.200] did you get the evidence to convince the players that this was possible?
[23:57.200 -> 24:00.480] It wasn't difficult, we had the evidence and I just said to them I want to play the game
[24:00.480 -> 24:03.720] better than England's ever played before we got it we got to play quicker we got
[24:03.720 -> 24:08.120] to play faster and you can see the excitement in the room. I said I want to wake up Saturday
[24:08.120 -> 24:11.000] morning of a Test match against All Blacks and think we can play faster than them, quicker
[24:11.000 -> 24:15.200] than them. And that's what we did. So the evidence was there, reading from those first
[24:15.200 -> 24:18.880] four games, we can do this. The one thing we were massively lacking was fitness and
[24:18.880 -> 24:23.800] power. We were nowhere near the fitness of the St. Petersburg teams because we were years
[24:23.800 -> 24:26.080] and years behind them in terms of our conditioning.
[24:26.080 -> 24:29.280] So again, I made it clear to the players, if we're going to be the best team in the
[24:29.280 -> 24:30.840] world, we've got to be the fittest team in the world.
[24:30.840 -> 24:34.280] That's not just a throwaway statement, but you've got to do this with Dave.
[24:34.280 -> 24:37.640] I'm no expert on fitness, I kind of understand fitness, I'm employed with one of the best
[24:37.640 -> 24:39.280] guys on fitness.
[24:39.280 -> 24:40.280] Those guys just changed.
[24:40.280 -> 24:44.840] And also, I think the team that played in 2003 today plays quicker than any other team
[24:44.840 -> 24:46.000] I see on the planet.
[24:46.000 -> 24:49.000] They're fitter, faster, over 80 minutes they play quicker.
[24:49.000 -> 24:51.000] And just because you're English, no one could see this, because they said,
[24:51.000 -> 24:53.000] people in white shirts don't play this way.
[24:53.000 -> 24:54.000] But we did.
[24:54.000 -> 24:58.000] And then you bring Jason Robinson in, and we just took the evidence, went to a whole new level.
[24:58.000 -> 25:01.000] And the excitement of the team, because you just knew every morning as a coach,
[25:01.000 -> 25:06.000] or most mornings on matchdays, you just felt really excited, this team's going to go and play.
[25:06.000 -> 25:10.000] And between World Cups, after we got beat by South Africa in 99,
[25:10.000 -> 25:14.000] and I don't know the exact figures, but I think we played 51 games
[25:14.000 -> 25:18.000] between losing in 99 and winning the World Cup, and we won 46.
[25:18.000 -> 25:21.000] So just think that through, it's like a 90% plus win record.
[25:21.000 -> 25:24.000] And that has included winning away from home against the hemisphere
[25:24.000 -> 25:25.360] 14 times in a row.
[25:25.360 -> 25:30.800] But it wasn't just about great players and it was the coaching in terms of the real pace we played
[25:30.800 -> 25:34.640] the game at. And that's why, you know, I can't praise Johnson and Dele Alli on it because they
[25:34.640 -> 25:38.560] loved it. These are tough forwards. They didn't want to play slow, they want to play quick because
[25:38.560 -> 25:42.240] pace is still everything. That's what sets you apart and we wanted to play quicker and faster
[25:42.240 -> 25:48.000] than anybody else. I knew we had the players, did we have the coaching ability, the mindset, the fitness to actually do this.
[25:48.000 -> 25:52.100] And very, very quickly, we kind of, some of the people, yeah, we want it, we can do this.
[25:52.100 -> 25:54.400] I want to be, I want to be part of this team.
[25:54.400 -> 26:02.900] And am I right in saying that you created a situation where you made the players think that they'd decided the rules by which you would be operating,
[26:02.900 -> 26:05.600] but actually they were really your rules.
[26:05.600 -> 26:07.000] Yeah, it's a...
[26:07.000 -> 26:09.000] I call it a thing called teamship.
[26:09.000 -> 26:11.200] I couldn't operate any other way than about to describe to you.
[26:11.200 -> 26:12.800] But I've never read about this in a book,
[26:12.800 -> 26:14.400] in a business book or a sports book.
[26:14.400 -> 26:17.000] And all it is, is...
[26:17.000 -> 26:19.000] If you can imagine me in front of my, you know,
[26:19.000 -> 26:21.200] nine people in my leasing company or
[26:21.200 -> 26:22.600] in front of 20, 30-year-old rugby players.
[26:22.600 -> 26:25.480] What I used to like to do was
[26:25.480 -> 26:29.900] whatever we were discussing I'd want them to discuss it first literally without me
[26:29.900 -> 26:34.640] in the room. So I give you an example and this is so just some of the behaviors
[26:34.640 -> 26:37.920] because I think the way you operate off the field of play reflects how you
[26:37.920 -> 26:41.320] operate on the field of play. So let's say a thing called time. I am neurotic
[26:41.320 -> 26:48.120] about time you know I'm never late for anybody ever unless there's something massively happened out there I can't be on time, I'm never late for anybody, ever. Unless there's something massively happened out there, I can't be on time, but I'm never late.
[26:48.120 -> 26:52.440] I think time says more about an individual or teams of people and play anything I can think about.
[26:52.440 -> 26:56.080] So I had this big conversation with the players, so I set the whole scene and I said, you know,
[26:56.080 -> 26:59.200] I can see Johnson looking at me, so, you know, where's this going?
[26:59.200 -> 27:01.720] I said, well, I'm gonna leave the room now, I want you to discuss time.
[27:01.720 -> 27:04.720] Because I don't want to stand it for the next eight years going, guys, don't be late.
[27:04.720 -> 27:07.400] I want to just put it as an absolute part of our culture.
[27:07.400 -> 27:08.240] So they kind of got it.
[27:08.240 -> 27:10.200] This is why I think Johnson was a genius.
[27:10.200 -> 27:11.040] He kind of got this.
[27:11.040 -> 27:12.920] So they had a big chat about it.
[27:12.920 -> 27:14.520] He came back to me and a bit of paper said,
[27:14.520 -> 27:15.720] you know, we get what you're saying.
[27:15.720 -> 27:19.240] So we're going to say time is 10 minutes early.
[27:19.240 -> 27:22.400] So if you call a meeting to start at nine o'clock
[27:22.400 -> 27:25.400] tomorrow morning, we'll be in the room at 8.50. And
[27:25.400 -> 27:29.320] the key thing about this team shit rule, Jake, you can only become a team shit rule if you
[27:29.320 -> 27:35.000] get 100% agreement. So it's not a case of 99% or nine out of 10. If you get 100% agreement
[27:35.000 -> 27:40.000] from the people in the room, they then presented you the leader. You can still go yes or no.
[27:40.000 -> 27:43.000] If I don't like what they come back with, I'm not giving away any authority here. I
[27:43.000 -> 27:45.900] actually don't believe in democracy too much. I'm in charge of this team.
[27:45.900 -> 27:49.100] But what I do want is their thoughts on this. I want them to all agree it.
[27:49.100 -> 27:53.100] So then he came back to me, said Lombardi time, sorry, time 10 minutes early.
[27:53.100 -> 27:55.500] And I then read it, I said, that's it.
[27:55.500 -> 27:57.700] And then we think of a name, we called it Lombardi time,
[27:57.700 -> 28:00.300] after Vince Lombardi, a famous American football coach.
[28:00.300 -> 28:03.100] You meet any, and you'll meet these players, just meet any England rugby players,
[28:03.100 -> 28:05.300] go Lombardi time They'll go ten minutes early
[28:05.300 -> 28:08.960] If if a player was late getting on the coach or late turning up for training
[28:08.960 -> 28:11.180] Would you have to speak to them or would the other players?
[28:11.460 -> 28:15.220] Do that for you because they they they felt it was their rule that they'd created
[28:15.460 -> 28:17.500] One I promise you never happened, right?
[28:17.500 -> 28:21.120] If it did the players are sorted out and if the players can sort of I'd sort it out
[28:21.120 -> 28:23.160] I mean, of course you can be late stuff can happen
[28:23.160 -> 28:28.000] You know you can and also just to flip that around, if you've got a player then, which I never had,
[28:28.000 -> 28:31.000] was arriving late, you've got a massive problem.
[28:31.000 -> 28:32.000] Massive problem.
[28:32.000 -> 28:33.000] Because you don't get...
[28:33.000 -> 28:36.000] We're trying to be the best in the world, we're trying to do something totally special here.
[28:36.000 -> 28:41.000] And these may seem simple examples, but they're not, they are massive examples.
[28:41.000 -> 28:44.000] And we then started to create this whole set of team shit rules.
[28:44.000 -> 28:45.340] Literally by the time we got to Australia
[28:45.380 -> 28:49.940] We had hundreds and hundreds got a black book. Everything was in this black book. Everything was document
[28:49.940 -> 28:54.520] You remember a few others for us? I can remember loads and you want just just things like dress
[28:55.060 -> 29:00.320] Language the way we handle the media whole lot of team shit rules and everything was documented
[29:00.540 -> 29:04.120] When you know, you've really cracked it and this is I think the point you're making which is brilliant
[29:04.120 -> 29:07.860] You know, he really cracked it, and this is I think the point you're making, which is brilliant, you know you've really cracked it, and say you're one of the players, so Jake you come to me and say,
[29:07.960 -> 29:13.360] Clive, we need to discuss this. That's when you've cracked it, because your team start to see areas
[29:13.360 -> 29:19.120] we need to improve in, and all this sort of stuff. I mean it's interesting, you know, with what's going on now in terms of the world,
[29:19.600 -> 29:22.480] you know, we also, in this room, in this room, it wasn't just
[29:22.960 -> 29:26.520] rugby players, we, we, my, my number two was Louise Ramsey.
[29:26.520 -> 29:27.360] I did that on purpose.
[29:27.360 -> 29:28.700] We, we had a lot of females.
[29:28.700 -> 29:30.740] We have female physios.
[29:30.740 -> 29:32.000] So I wanted them in the room.
[29:32.000 -> 29:33.660] This is all to be discussed.
[29:33.660 -> 29:36.600] So the language one, for example, was within the team,
[29:36.600 -> 29:38.500] obviously on the, on the training field, fine.
[29:38.500 -> 29:41.480] But within the team room, if you want to make a point,
[29:41.480 -> 29:42.840] you can use colorful language,
[29:42.840 -> 29:45.000] but only do if you want to make a real big point.
[29:45.000 -> 29:49.160] But once you leave this team room, zero, zero bad language.
[29:49.160 -> 29:51.160] Like you can't say the word bloody, anything.
[29:51.160 -> 29:52.880] Because you could be outside in the restaurant,
[29:52.880 -> 29:55.120] a kid should be next to you, you swear,
[29:55.120 -> 29:56.280] that could be front page news.
[29:56.280 -> 29:59.040] So you start to create this teamship rules.
[29:59.040 -> 30:01.680] And what I'm saying is it sounds easy, but it's not,
[30:01.680 -> 30:03.280] because it's got to be driven by the leader.
[30:03.280 -> 30:05.320] I understood it inside out and back to front.
[30:05.640 -> 30:07.880] So I'll just lead on stuff, leave the room.
[30:08.200 -> 30:11.320] But then when you know you've really cracked it, you can get into talking about rugby.
[30:11.760 -> 30:14.720] I'm going to talk about line out defence from this.
[30:14.720 -> 30:15.800] You guys have a chat about it.
[30:15.800 -> 30:16.360] I'm going to come back.
[30:16.360 -> 30:17.560] I want you to use views on it.
[30:18.080 -> 30:19.760] So you can actually just not be behaviours.
[30:19.760 -> 30:20.760] It's your business as well.
[30:21.200 -> 30:22.680] And it's not easy to put in place.
[30:22.680 -> 30:28.300] It sounds easy, but it's not because the lead leaders got to absolutely believe what I like about it
[30:28.300 -> 30:31.340] though and you relate to this day mean it takes a set of rules it basically
[30:31.340 -> 30:35.620] turns rules into culture it stops them being rules doesn't it it becomes a
[30:35.620 -> 30:39.080] culture Jake I'm often asked how do you get a culture so team ship that's the
[30:39.080 -> 30:42.820] culture the culture is a black book we had all sorts of stuff about what is
[30:42.820 -> 30:46.520] acceptable what's not it not acceptable. And literally hundreds in the end.
[30:46.520 -> 30:48.360] The dress one was interesting.
[30:48.360 -> 30:50.880] You know, we had a big thing about, you know,
[30:50.880 -> 30:53.040] suddenly some guy, and I didn't like this,
[30:53.040 -> 30:55.160] I was at breakfast and we're in the Penny Hill Park,
[30:55.160 -> 30:58.640] beautiful hotel, who were fantastic for us.
[30:58.640 -> 30:59.760] And then some guy came walking in,
[30:59.760 -> 31:01.080] one of the players came walking in breakfast
[31:01.080 -> 31:02.880] with flip flops on.
[31:02.880 -> 31:03.880] I'm going, that's just,
[31:03.880 -> 31:05.320] so I couldn't wait to get to the next meeting. Guys, who thinks it's right for people walking in breakfast with flip-flops on. I'm going, that's just so, couldn't wait to get to the next meeting.
[31:05.320 -> 31:07.440] Guys, who thinks it's right for people
[31:07.440 -> 31:09.320] walking in breakfast with flip-flops on?
[31:09.320 -> 31:11.480] Now you weren't barefooted, but flip-flops,
[31:11.480 -> 31:12.320] here's a good one.
[31:13.680 -> 31:14.520] Books and press.
[31:14.520 -> 31:16.720] Now you know, because you guys are from the media,
[31:16.720 -> 31:18.120] that the books and press,
[31:18.120 -> 31:20.160] I'm the England head coach.
[31:20.160 -> 31:21.800] Half the team is able to write books
[31:21.800 -> 31:23.000] about what's going on.
[31:23.000 -> 31:24.800] Half of them have newspaper columns,
[31:24.800 -> 31:27.000] they have agents, they have media people.
[31:27.000 -> 31:31.000] So this is quite tough because when I'm in this room
[31:31.000 -> 31:33.000] and anyone else in this room, I want to be myself.
[31:33.000 -> 31:38.000] I don't want to have to worry about you guys writing about this in tomorrow's newspaper
[31:38.000 -> 31:42.000] or writing a book about it in three or four years time because I'm exposed.
[31:42.000 -> 31:45.400] And also because I want some team rules about books and press.
[31:45.400 -> 31:49.000] And this wasn't just one meeting, this went on for months and months and months.
[31:49.000 -> 31:51.000] Because you had a whole bunch of the teams.
[31:51.000 -> 31:53.000] I'm just going, guys, we're trying to win the World Cup and be the best team in the world.
[31:53.000 -> 31:56.500] Who wants to write a flipping book? Do it after we win the World Cup.
[31:56.500 -> 31:58.000] Who wants to write a newspaper column?
[31:58.000 -> 32:02.000] Anyway, but obviously some of the players were getting well paid to write newspaper columns,
[32:02.000 -> 32:03.000] they wanted to do books.
[32:03.000 -> 32:07.000] And so there was a big kind of no agreement within the actual team.
[32:07.000 -> 32:09.000] And eventually, eventually they came back to me.
[32:09.000 -> 32:11.000] And Jono again came back to me and he said,
[32:11.000 -> 32:13.000] I think we got there on this.
[32:13.000 -> 32:15.000] And he said, we want to write books.
[32:15.000 -> 32:16.000] We want to do newspaper columns.
[32:16.000 -> 32:20.000] But what we all agree is we'll never write anything in the column
[32:20.000 -> 32:24.000] or the book that anybody in the room from you to another player
[32:24.000 -> 32:25.000] or doctor or physio,
[32:25.000 -> 32:26.000] would ever take offence at.
[32:26.000 -> 32:28.000] And eventually I agreed it.
[32:28.000 -> 32:31.000] I said, okay, that's going to be our teamship rule on books and press.
[32:31.000 -> 32:34.000] And, you know, I can't recall a single thing
[32:34.000 -> 32:36.000] ever written by a player, even now,
[32:36.000 -> 32:39.000] that's critical of anything within that team.
[32:39.000 -> 32:41.000] So I often say, you know, when you read Martin Johnson's book,
[32:41.000 -> 32:44.000] it is the most deadly, dull, boring book you'll ever read.
[32:44.000 -> 32:45.560] But he's still sold.
[32:45.560 -> 32:46.560] Team shit rules.
[32:46.560 -> 32:47.560] That's why.
[32:47.560 -> 32:48.560] Team shit rules.
[32:48.560 -> 32:49.560] We've been sold millions and millions of copies already.
[32:49.560 -> 32:53.720] So, you know, I talk about this with businesses now, you know, you know, racism, you know,
[32:53.720 -> 32:56.760] harass, harassment, diversity, inclusion is top of the agenda.
[32:56.760 -> 33:01.160] Get it out on the table, talk about it, talk about it on the team, create your own team
[33:01.160 -> 33:02.160] shit rules.
[33:02.160 -> 33:04.960] And you'd be amazed where some people start talking about stuff.
[33:04.960 -> 33:08.840] You're wow. I just didn't know this, I just didn't realise this and it's team shit
[33:08.840 -> 33:13.480] rules and it's so powerful but it's got to be delivered by the leader of the team, you
[33:13.480 -> 33:17.360] can't just stand back and go guys team shit rules, away you go but you want real debate,
[33:17.360 -> 33:22.280] you want thought, you want diverse opinions and that's how it actually works and it was
[33:22.280 -> 33:27.000] so so important for us,, so important for us. So, so important for us.
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[35:34.400 -> 35:37.440] details. So can I ask you then Clive
[35:36.720 -> 35:39.680] around
[35:37.440 -> 35:41.280] the ability to take that culture that
[35:39.680 -> 35:42.480] you've developed at England and you said
[35:41.280 -> 35:45.360] it took time
[35:42.480 -> 36:05.600] to get there. How easy is it to take and transplant that? So if we talk about the a dweud y byddai'n cymryd amser i ddod yno. Pa mor wedi'i ddweud o'r fath o gyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweud y byddai'n cyfrifoldeb a dweillodd. Pa mor wedi'i ddweud o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o' I mean, I do it now in businesses. I work in businesses in terms of putting in teamship rules
[36:05.600 -> 36:07.400] to show me how you can actually do it,
[36:07.400 -> 36:08.880] and I can stand back and see it actually works.
[36:08.880 -> 36:10.280] So it just takes time,
[36:10.280 -> 36:12.960] but you've got to explain to every single individual player
[36:12.960 -> 36:15.280] about why you're doing this.
[36:15.280 -> 36:16.600] But I know no other way.
[36:16.600 -> 36:17.440] I know no other way.
[36:17.440 -> 36:19.640] If I was, you know, I love golf.
[36:19.640 -> 36:22.320] If I was made captain of my golf club, this, I would do it.
[36:22.320 -> 36:23.840] I'd sit down with the people and say,
[36:23.840 -> 36:24.760] let me know what you think,
[36:24.760 -> 36:25.000] and then I'll make a decision about it. But it's, this, I would do it. I'd sit down with the people and say, let me know what you think,
[36:25.000 -> 36:26.320] and then I'll make a decision about it.
[36:26.320 -> 36:28.760] But it's just getting everyone's engagement about it.
[36:28.760 -> 36:30.500] I think part of the issue here is that
[36:30.500 -> 36:32.520] leaders naturally think they have to lead, right?
[36:32.520 -> 36:35.640] It takes quite a brave leader to, in effect,
[36:35.640 -> 36:37.240] allow the other people in the room
[36:37.240 -> 36:39.440] to be part of the decision-making process.
[36:39.440 -> 36:41.680] What teamship is, Jake, is a style of leadership,
[36:41.680 -> 36:42.760] and it's a mild style of leadership.
[36:42.760 -> 36:46.960] It's not a weak style, I think it's a really strong style because, you know, as I said, I still think
[36:46.960 -> 36:50.720] as a player. So if I can still think as a player, if I was sitting there as a 24 year
[36:50.720 -> 36:55.680] old and I've got an idea, you know, and I couldn't feel before empowered to actually
[36:55.680 -> 37:00.520] stand up and say it, I think we can do this better. That's crazy. I would not bring team
[37:00.520 -> 37:04.360] ship in unless I thought it would make the boat go faster. It'd make us score more tries,
[37:04.360 -> 37:05.540] win more gold medals, Olympics.
[37:05.820 -> 37:06.740] That's why I brought it in.
[37:07.260 -> 37:08.500] It's not a fluffy stuff.
[37:08.500 -> 37:10.560] It's not, it's not weak management leadership.
[37:10.560 -> 37:13.180] It's real strong leadership, but it's acknowledging the people in
[37:13.180 -> 37:14.580] your team have got some great thoughts.
[37:14.900 -> 37:17.260] And when you think of that team that won in 2003, I make no
[37:17.260 -> 37:19.260] apologies for keep coming back to that.
[37:19.300 -> 37:21.040] I mean, there was such brains in that room.
[37:21.140 -> 37:23.360] You think of, but these are what the guys are doing now.
[37:23.360 -> 37:25.160] Dawson, Kay, Delaudio. And you should use the brains.
[37:25.160 -> 37:26.040] You use the brains.
[37:26.040 -> 37:26.240] Yeah.
[37:26.240 -> 37:27.400] They were clever people then.
[37:27.400 -> 37:28.480] They're clever people now.
[37:28.480 -> 37:31.080] Um, and you use it, you're, you're tapping into it.
[37:31.080 -> 37:34.520] As I said before, the secret is understanding, you know, and I've really
[37:34.520 -> 37:36.040] learned to kind of almost leverage this.
[37:36.040 -> 37:38.480] I almost pride myself on not being good at new ideas.
[37:38.840 -> 37:41.480] What I pride myself on is getting people around me who are good.
[37:41.960 -> 37:47.800] But when I hear a good idea, what I think I'm quite good at is I'm making that happen.
[37:47.800 -> 37:49.600] I'll shift heaven and earth.
[37:49.600 -> 37:52.400] If that's going to make us go faster, we're going to do it.
[37:52.400 -> 38:00.000] That Lions Tour of 2005, I've spoken to some of the players that were part of that set up
[38:00.000 -> 38:04.600] and they speak really highly of how professional it was and some of those same standards
[38:04.600 -> 38:06.000] that you brought,
[38:06.000 -> 38:08.440] that you obviously had with England.
[38:08.440 -> 38:10.900] I'm interested in what do you think
[38:10.900 -> 38:12.240] you would do differently now
[38:12.240 -> 38:14.280] when you look back on it with hindsight?
[38:15.200 -> 38:16.040] Not a lot, to be honest.
[38:16.040 -> 38:18.440] The only thing I'd probably do differently is
[38:18.440 -> 38:20.360] would I actually do that job?
[38:20.360 -> 38:21.640] You know, I didn't apply for the job.
[38:21.640 -> 38:22.800] You know, what basically happened,
[38:22.800 -> 38:25.000] and I'd always, you know, I'm coaching England,
[38:25.000 -> 38:26.840] everything that was the highlight.
[38:26.840 -> 38:28.760] Coaching the Lions wasn't the highlight for me,
[38:28.760 -> 38:30.320] coaching England was the highlight.
[38:30.320 -> 38:32.240] And if I'm brutally honest,
[38:32.240 -> 38:33.120] I played for the Lions,
[38:33.120 -> 38:35.760] went on two Lions tours in 1980 and 83.
[38:35.760 -> 38:37.000] So I love the Lions.
[38:37.000 -> 38:38.440] When you're the England rugby coach,
[38:38.440 -> 38:39.360] they get in your way.
[38:39.360 -> 38:40.520] I make no bones about it.
[38:40.520 -> 38:42.480] They are an interference.
[38:42.480 -> 38:45.440] You know, right two years before the World Cup in 2003,
[38:45.440 -> 38:46.320] we're right there.
[38:46.760 -> 38:49.520] The Lions go to Australia in 2001 with Gray and Henry.
[38:49.880 -> 38:51.680] That disrupted us so much.
[38:52.040 -> 38:54.200] So of course you win the World Cup in 2003,
[38:54.400 -> 38:55.520] next thing they're knocking on your door,
[38:55.520 -> 38:56.760] we want you to coach the Lions.
[38:57.040 -> 38:58.080] And I didn't accept it.
[38:58.080 -> 39:01.000] I just came back and, you know, every part of my body,
[39:01.160 -> 39:04.320] every part of my head said, don't do this.
[39:04.360 -> 39:07.000] You got no upside here.
[39:07.000 -> 39:08.040] I'm very English.
[39:08.040 -> 39:10.640] I spent four or five years trying to knock these guys'
[39:10.640 -> 39:12.640] heads off, the Welsh, Scots and Irish.
[39:12.640 -> 39:14.000] So suddenly you're now going to be in the same room
[39:14.000 -> 39:16.600] as them, coaching them, giving all your,
[39:16.600 -> 39:17.960] to almost IP away.
[39:17.960 -> 39:20.200] So I did the lines.
[39:20.200 -> 39:22.360] And if you just go into it immediately, not a hundred
[39:22.360 -> 39:24.800] percent, you know, I'm not sure,
[39:24.800 -> 39:26.080] that that's kind of rubbed off.
[39:26.080 -> 39:27.760] And in many ways I did too much.
[39:28.200 -> 39:36.680] I tried to cram in all that I'm trying to explain to you this morning into, you know, the England, you know, I took over in 97, we won the World Cup in 2003.
[39:36.680 -> 39:40.400] So it wasn't six years, it probably took three years.
[39:40.600 -> 39:44.040] You know, we probably could have won the World Cup in 2000, 2001.
[39:44.040 -> 39:44.960] I think we're good enough then.
[39:44.960 -> 39:47.000] So it took about two or three years to turn it around.
[39:47.000 -> 39:50.000] The Lions is two months. It's two months.
[39:50.000 -> 39:55.000] And you've got a whole bunch of strangers, you know, the English guys are there.
[39:55.000 -> 39:59.000] And I probably did too much. I tried to bring a lot of this team-ship stuff in.
[39:59.000 -> 40:04.000] What would be your first message to them to try and really make them understand this is a new era, a Clive Woodward?
[40:04.000 -> 40:08.760] Yeah, I tried to get across the fact we're going to take a lot more players, we're going to take more coaches,
[40:08.760 -> 40:13.760] we're going to build this thing up and I, you know, to answer your question, would I do anything much differently?
[40:13.760 -> 40:19.360] No. I tried to take the players with me, but I could just see there was some glaze over the eyes.
[40:19.360 -> 40:24.400] And also, I got off the job in like the January, February 2004.
[40:24.400 -> 40:26.680] And like us all, I'm writing the Lions team down.
[40:26.680 -> 40:28.040] I've got all my Starringdom players,
[40:28.040 -> 40:29.880] but I'm just chucking in O'Driscoll.
[40:29.880 -> 40:31.720] I'm chucking in Paul O'Connell.
[40:31.720 -> 40:34.240] I'm chucking in Henson and a few other guys.
[40:34.240 -> 40:35.840] I generally thought we could win.
[40:35.840 -> 40:39.000] I thought, geez, if that's the Lions team, we can win.
[40:39.000 -> 40:41.280] Two years later, there's my first team.
[40:41.280 -> 40:44.640] The probably, hardly a single name was the same person.
[40:44.640 -> 40:47.140] There was all sorts of injuries.
[40:47.140 -> 40:48.900] Martin Johnson retired.
[40:48.900 -> 40:51.100] It just, and you just get it goes,
[40:51.100 -> 40:52.940] you know, and also, you know,
[40:52.940 -> 40:54.940] it's amazing how good a coach you become
[40:54.940 -> 40:56.140] when you've got your full-strengths team.
[40:56.140 -> 40:56.740] Yeah, sure.
[40:56.740 -> 40:58.300] You know, we won the World Cup in 2003,
[40:58.300 -> 40:59.340] didn't have a single injury.
[40:59.340 -> 41:00.660] Everyone was there.
[41:00.660 -> 41:02.900] I think if I had my full-strengths team in 2005,
[41:02.900 -> 41:04.180] we'd have half a chance.
[41:04.180 -> 41:06.600] But we just went there and, you know,
[41:06.600 -> 41:08.680] we didn't get beat, we got kind of smashed,
[41:08.680 -> 41:10.520] but behind the scenes, was it fun?
[41:10.520 -> 41:11.760] Yeah, there was no problems,
[41:11.760 -> 41:13.520] but it was a massive setback for me
[41:13.520 -> 41:15.320] because I wasn't used to failing.
[41:15.320 -> 41:16.680] But when you look at it logically,
[41:16.680 -> 41:18.840] you just, why would you, why do you do that?
[41:18.840 -> 41:20.160] See, but that's interesting to me
[41:20.160 -> 41:22.280] because you've spoken about, you've surrounded,
[41:22.280 -> 41:24.400] like you're a leader that has the courage
[41:24.400 -> 41:25.800] to surround yourself with experts
[41:26.400 -> 41:32.360] whether it's in fitness or the science of what you're doing and yet those same experts are saying to you
[41:32.360 -> 41:35.860] don't do this Clive, there's no upside and you chose to ignore them.
[41:35.860 -> 41:38.860] Well it's the experts, this was family, this was my wife, this was Jane, this was...
[41:38.860 -> 41:40.360] Sure, yeah, but they're people that know you as well as anyone.
[41:40.360 -> 41:42.360] Oh yeah, all my England coaches going, just don't do it.
[41:42.360 -> 41:46.200] But I also had this kind of vision of the Lions going there, getting beat 4-0.
[41:47.600 -> 41:50.700] Some coach getting roasted and me sitting there not feeling very good about it.
[41:50.700 -> 41:53.700] Was there an element of ego as well though, where you thought, I've done it with England,
[41:53.700 -> 41:55.300] I'll do it with the Lions and that is...
[41:55.300 -> 41:58.000] Massive, Jake. I don't think I've got a massive ego, but yes.
[41:58.400 -> 42:00.200] Would I have done much different? Not really.
[42:00.200 -> 42:02.800] At the end of the day, I can sit and make as many excuses as you want.
[42:02.800 -> 42:05.280] At the end of the day, that was an outstanding New Zealand team,
[42:05.280 -> 42:08.960] that team in 2005, you know, Carter had come in, McCaw was in.
[42:08.960 -> 42:11.680] They were brilliant, full strength.
[42:11.680 -> 42:14.440] We were a long way off what I wanted the team to be.
[42:14.440 -> 42:15.920] Of course, you get beat.
[42:15.920 -> 42:18.000] And what happens, and you know this,
[42:18.000 -> 42:22.960] when you win, you get so much praise, far, way over the top.
[42:22.960 -> 42:29.960] When you lose, it's the other other way you get absolutely annihilated so I got some more than my fair share positive
[42:29.960 -> 42:33.520] feedback from the media so it's a big learning thing to me but you know that
[42:33.520 -> 42:35.160] was part of all growing up.
[42:35.160 -> 42:37.360] Is it matter though? Isn't life basically about experiences?
[42:37.360 -> 42:40.680] I remember interviewing Pep Guardiola when he first joined Manchester City the
[42:40.680 -> 42:49.280] first interview day one I said why have you joined Man City his answer was to feel what it's like to manage in English football. I want to feel
[42:49.280 -> 42:54.520] the FA Cup, I want to feel the Premier League. You now know what it's like to manage the
[42:54.520 -> 42:58.720] Lions. When your life ends, whenever that is, no one will ever take that away from you
[42:58.720 -> 43:04.040] and isn't life about, whether they're good or bad, knowing what that experience is like?
[43:04.040 -> 43:08.100] You can only be richer for knowing what it's like to stand there and say I led the
[43:08.100 -> 43:14.060] Lions yeah I yes and no you like winning yes yeah I just you never planned for
[43:14.060 -> 43:17.680] failure and you hate fail at the time but you're right looking back now that
[43:17.680 -> 43:21.360] what happened to me in 99 was it was a great kind of you know I got out of jail
[43:21.360 -> 43:25.600] I got through it I totally changed after that 99 tour and what I actually did.
[43:25.600 -> 43:27.560] I became far more my own man.
[43:27.560 -> 43:29.840] I think Graham Henry changed after 2001.
[43:29.840 -> 43:30.940] So you don't plan for failure,
[43:30.940 -> 43:32.640] but I'm often asked about the Lions
[43:32.640 -> 43:34.960] and it's quite simply, you coach all your life really,
[43:34.960 -> 43:36.120] but everyone's come back to the Lions
[43:36.120 -> 43:37.680] like two months period.
[43:37.680 -> 43:39.920] And you get beat and of course the criticism
[43:39.920 -> 43:41.040] is way, way over the top.
[43:41.040 -> 43:42.980] It's like you get too much praise when you actually win.
[43:42.980 -> 44:09.420] But would I do anything different to answer your question? No, I threw the kitchen sink out, I really did. Mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae'n ddod o'r gofod, mae' accelerate some of the lessons that you adopted over a long period of time with England into that short, I've got to get short-term results, how do I take some of the same?
[44:09.420 -> 44:12.060] I think from a, again from a, you know, we're talking about all sorts of people
[44:12.060 -> 44:14.780] from the business point of view, you know, there's that famous saying that the
[44:14.780 -> 44:18.140] grass is very rarely greener, I do believe in that, I often question a lot of
[44:18.140 -> 44:21.340] people who are about to change jobs, change careers, I say, are you absolutely
[44:21.340 -> 44:24.820] sure? Because you've got to be totally sure, because I, what I don't want to
[44:24.820 -> 44:25.360] advise you, and you're looking back Because you've got to be totally sure, because what I don't want to advise you,
[44:25.360 -> 44:26.800] and you're looking back in six months time going,
[44:26.800 -> 44:29.400] actually, I should have stayed here.
[44:29.400 -> 44:30.880] From that point of view, I mean,
[44:30.880 -> 44:34.520] I was on top of the world in 2003, 2004,
[44:34.520 -> 44:36.760] you know, I was having my issues with the RFU
[44:36.760 -> 44:38.840] because I wanted to take England to a whole new level.
[44:38.840 -> 44:42.240] I wanted to go to Paris, coach the team in four years time
[44:42.240 -> 44:47.000] in 2007, and arrive as the best prepared team in the world
[44:47.000 -> 44:48.000] and win the World Cup back to work.
[44:48.000 -> 44:50.000] That was my only, only goal.
[44:50.000 -> 44:52.000] Then suddenly I got distracted by this Lions
[44:52.000 -> 44:55.000] and it almost felt like I couldn't coach England either
[44:55.000 -> 44:56.000] because I stepped down from England.
[44:56.000 -> 44:58.000] Not because of that, because lots was going on,
[44:58.000 -> 45:00.000] but really looking back now, you know,
[45:00.000 -> 45:04.000] I wouldn't say that kind of, that experience
[45:04.000 -> 45:06.240] made me a better coach.
[45:06.240 -> 45:08.080] It certainly toughened me up in terms of,
[45:08.080 -> 45:10.880] I was a bit surprised at the media reaction to it,
[45:10.880 -> 45:14.920] because it wasn't like we'd been there 11 times and won 10 times.
[45:14.920 -> 45:17.200] I wasn't bucking the trend.
[45:17.200 -> 45:19.000] Did you go back as a coach though, Clive?
[45:19.000 -> 45:20.000] A couple of times, yeah.
[45:20.000 -> 45:21.840] I do so many things,
[45:21.840 -> 45:23.880] well, so many times, I do a few things now which I really do enjoy.
[45:23.880 -> 45:27.360] What I've been really pleased about since I stepped back from rugby,
[45:27.360 -> 45:30.160] you know, I went into football and that was fantastic.
[45:30.160 -> 45:32.320] I had an amazing year in professional football.
[45:32.320 -> 45:34.240] Southampton were brilliant with me.
[45:34.240 -> 45:37.080] And I was going to become a professional, I was going to coach a football team.
[45:37.080 -> 45:38.720] I had no plans about it.
[45:38.720 -> 45:44.320] Rupert Low, the chairman of Southampton, took me on as the director of football down there.
[45:44.320 -> 45:48.000] I sat in Harry Redknapp's office for six months, which was awesome.
[45:48.000 -> 45:50.000] I mean, he's just such a brilliant guy.
[45:50.000 -> 45:52.000] And what happened with that then? Why didn't you...
[45:52.000 -> 45:55.000] Oh, it's a very simple story. I mean, in a way I kind of fell out of rugby
[45:55.000 -> 45:58.000] because I fell out with people at Twickenham. I couldn't understand
[45:58.000 -> 46:00.000] that after backing me for seven, eight years, winning the World Cup,
[46:00.000 -> 46:03.000] the best team in the world, I thought, right now we are going to become...
[46:03.000 -> 46:06.600] we're going to set up a complete empire here. The're going to, the all-blacks won't know what's hit them.
[46:06.600 -> 46:10.100] And suddenly from supporting me totally, they, everyone changed.
[46:10.100 -> 46:13.000] And they almost said, look, we're not going to do what you're saying.
[46:13.000 -> 46:15.000] You know, you just won the World Cup, just go and do it again.
[46:15.000 -> 46:16.100] We're not going to make all these changes.
[46:16.100 -> 46:18.100] What I was trying to do is change completely.
[46:18.100 -> 46:19.600] I wanted more revenue going to the clubs.
[46:19.600 -> 46:22.700] Everything that's happened since, has happened since we fell out.
[46:22.700 -> 46:24.900] And in the end, I don't think you can run the England rugby team
[46:24.900 -> 46:25.120] unless you've got the support of the board and the chief out. And in the end, I don't think you can run the England rugby team
[46:25.120 -> 46:26.960] unless you've got the support of the board and the chief executive.
[46:26.960 -> 46:28.560] And I didn't get that after the World Cup.
[46:28.560 -> 46:30.480] They thought I was out of control.
[46:30.480 -> 46:32.680] You know, you get knighted and suddenly they think you're going to change
[46:32.680 -> 46:35.760] and become this person with two heads or something.
[46:35.760 -> 46:37.760] And I wasn't, I was just very clear about this.
[46:37.760 -> 46:39.320] But they'd always back me, so they weren't.
[46:39.320 -> 46:41.800] So we had pretty big fallout, so I left.
[46:41.800 -> 46:43.240] And I was sat at a dinner with Rupert Lowe,
[46:43.240 -> 46:45.360] and you know, he knew I was passionate about football,
[46:45.360 -> 46:46.320] and he said, well, if you do leave,
[46:46.320 -> 46:48.920] just give me a call, because I'll take you into football.
[46:48.920 -> 46:50.360] So I rang him, I said, are you serious?
[46:50.360 -> 46:51.960] He said, I'm absolutely serious.
[46:51.960 -> 46:53.600] So that kind of fast-tracked it,
[46:53.600 -> 46:55.760] and I then went into Southampton,
[46:55.760 -> 46:57.280] there was a lot of media about it,
[46:57.280 -> 46:59.840] going into football, because people couldn't see,
[46:59.840 -> 47:01.720] you're a rugby coach, how can you coach football?
[47:01.720 -> 47:03.680] Which is the most stupid thing I've ever heard,
[47:03.680 -> 47:04.680] to be brutally honest.
[47:04.680 -> 47:06.980] And at the time, my background, I'm a PE teacher. My background, I did a degree coach, how can you coach football? Which is the most stupid thing I've ever heard, to be brutally honest. In the day, my background, I'm a PE teacher.
[47:06.980 -> 47:08.940] My background is a degree in Loughborough
[47:08.940 -> 47:10.620] in sports science, I'm a trained teacher.
[47:10.620 -> 47:12.220] So I'm saying, when you're a teacher,
[47:12.220 -> 47:13.980] you coach football, rugby, tennis, cricket,
[47:13.980 -> 47:15.060] you coach anything.
[47:15.060 -> 47:16.260] The key thing, are you passionate about it?
[47:16.260 -> 47:18.220] And I love football, I always have loved football.
[47:18.220 -> 47:19.860] And I couldn't wait, this was it.
[47:19.860 -> 47:21.140] So I did all my badges,
[47:21.140 -> 47:22.700] I'm a fully qualified UEFA coach.
[47:22.700 -> 47:24.740] I've not got a single qualification to coach rugby,
[47:24.740 -> 47:26.320] zero, none. But I'm a fully qualified football coach, I did all my badges, I'm a fully qualified UA for coach. I've not got a single qualification in coach rugby, zero, none.
[47:26.320 -> 47:28.160] But I'm a fully qualified football coach,
[47:28.160 -> 47:29.480] I did all my badges down there.
[47:29.480 -> 47:31.600] And I was going to do it, I'd made no bounds about it.
[47:31.600 -> 47:32.800] And it's interesting looking back now,
[47:32.800 -> 47:34.680] Arsene Wenger was brilliant with me,
[47:34.680 -> 47:36.160] Alan Pardew was brilliant with me.
[47:36.160 -> 47:38.000] You remember these people because I came in,
[47:38.000 -> 47:41.000] I was quite high profile because of the World Cup.
[47:41.000 -> 47:43.640] And I loved it, but I had to start at the bottom.
[47:43.640 -> 47:45.000] Two job offers at the end of this year.
[47:45.000 -> 47:48.000] One was from High Wicker, my local club just up the road here,
[47:48.000 -> 47:52.000] and the other one was from Pete Winkleman at MK Don's,
[47:52.000 -> 47:54.000] and to go in and be the proper head coach.
[47:54.000 -> 47:57.000] And I couldn't wait, and I couldn't decide which one to do.
[47:57.000 -> 48:00.000] And then all that happened was, out of the blue,
[48:00.000 -> 48:02.000] we won the Olympic Games bid.
[48:02.000 -> 48:06.000] And a guy called Colin Moynihan, who was the Minister of Sport then,
[48:06.000 -> 48:08.000] and in charge of BOA, he came here to see me.
[48:08.000 -> 48:10.000] And he said, we're reading about all this football stuff,
[48:10.000 -> 48:12.000] you know, we've just won the Olympic bid,
[48:12.000 -> 48:13.000] which we weren't expected to do.
[48:13.000 -> 48:15.000] And he said, I'm going to create this new position
[48:15.000 -> 48:16.000] called the Director of Sport for Team GB.
[48:16.000 -> 48:19.000] You work for the BOA, you'll oversee the whole of Team GB.
[48:19.000 -> 48:22.000] So he said, you'll do Beijing, you'll do Vancouver,
[48:22.000 -> 48:24.000] but the goal is London 2012.
[48:24.000 -> 48:26.120] So it's like a six year contract.
[48:26.120 -> 48:28.600] Moynihan left, I'm literally sitting here
[48:28.600 -> 48:31.520] and I've literally got a contract here
[48:31.520 -> 48:34.520] from MK Dons, bottom of the fourth division,
[48:34.520 -> 48:36.280] contract here from High Wickham,
[48:36.280 -> 48:38.240] second from bottom of the fourth division,
[48:38.240 -> 48:41.720] or directors bought Team GB, six year contract,
[48:41.720 -> 48:43.200] London 2012.
[48:43.200 -> 48:44.840] So Jane kind of shouldn't have actually said,
[48:44.840 -> 48:45.880] and I'm sitting there shaking my head, she said, what's that? I kind of said, and I'm shaking my head,
[48:45.880 -> 48:51.280] and she said, what's that? And there's those famous last words, and she says, are we really having this conversation?
[48:51.280 -> 48:55.280] There you go, Jane again, vital to the whole process.
[48:55.280 -> 49:00.880] So that's what happened. But Southampton was interesting because in the Academy there, Gareth Bale was in the Academy,
[49:00.880 -> 49:07.680] Theo Walcott was in the Academy, Nathan Dyer was in the Academy, Goldrick. These are all 16, 17 year olds and the interesting thing is just working with them,
[49:07.680 -> 49:10.720] you know, they were no different than Johnny Wilkinson.
[49:10.720 -> 49:12.720] They were just the same, they were just different sportsmen.
[49:12.720 -> 49:14.320] And at that age they probably were open-minded.
[49:14.320 -> 49:16.800] And then they were open-minded, they were fantastic.
[49:16.800 -> 49:23.440] Would you be tempted now to go back into football and take all the knowledge you've acquired in rugby and politics?
[49:23.440 -> 49:26.200] I'm not tempted because I'm very happy what I'm doing.
[49:26.200 -> 49:28.600] I say I'm involved in the Ski Academy in the south of France.
[49:28.600 -> 49:30.900] I'm doing various things and life's pretty good at the moment.
[49:30.900 -> 49:32.600] So it would take a big reason,
[49:32.600 -> 49:34.500] but I don't know if I had to do it.
[49:34.500 -> 49:36.300] I just do it by what I did with the rugby team,
[49:36.300 -> 49:37.500] like I did with my leasing company.
[49:37.500 -> 49:39.500] Running a football team is running a business.
[49:39.500 -> 49:41.000] But that year was fantastic.
[49:41.000 -> 49:42.800] Gave me a whole year to see it first hand.
[49:42.800 -> 49:48.640] Harry was brilliant with me and we had our moments, but had great fun as well. I learnt a lot about the
[49:48.640 -> 49:53.200] football world. It's a tough, tough game. Makes me chuckle when rugby people say, well
[49:53.200 -> 49:57.600] you know, football is a diving all over the place, it's a soft game. It's not a soft game.
[49:57.600 -> 50:01.080] When you're involved in professional football, these are tough, tough people and you've got
[50:01.080 -> 50:05.140] to be tough physically, tough mentally and I just say guys you haven't
[50:05.140 -> 50:09.260] a clue, this is just as tough as any rugby player.
[50:09.260 -> 50:14.220] We've got a few quickfire questions in a moment, before we get to those to finish off with.
[50:14.220 -> 50:18.240] The one thing that I'm really interested in is you're quite process driven, right? You
[50:18.240 -> 50:25.560] believe by using process you can create a winning environment. Does that mean that anyone
[50:28.120 -> 50:28.960] can be a high performance individual? Anyone listening to this,
[50:28.960 -> 50:29.840] they think, well, you know,
[50:29.840 -> 50:31.360] I'm not sure I am high performance.
[50:31.360 -> 50:33.520] I'm not sure the people around me are high performance.
[50:33.520 -> 50:37.040] By using process, can anyone get to that point
[50:37.040 -> 50:39.960] where they will impose their will
[50:39.960 -> 50:41.240] and they will have success?
[50:41.240 -> 50:43.360] The answer is undoubtedly yes,
[50:43.360 -> 50:46.240] but the most important thing, Jake, is to understand,
[50:46.240 -> 50:50.600] let's use golf as an analogy, so explain what I mean.
[50:50.600 -> 50:53.080] I love golf, it's the one sport I can still play.
[50:53.080 -> 50:55.080] I play off six handicap golfer.
[50:55.080 -> 50:56.960] So right, what I'm saying to you is,
[50:56.960 -> 50:59.000] I cannot beat Roy McIlroy.
[50:59.000 -> 51:00.400] I cannot beat Tiger Woods.
[51:00.400 -> 51:01.240] I cannot beat them.
[51:01.240 -> 51:03.840] That's just pipe dreams.
[51:03.840 -> 51:06.560] But my competition is everyone who's on six.
[51:06.560 -> 51:08.880] So I'm going, okay, my competition is everyone
[51:08.880 -> 51:09.920] who's on six handicap.
[51:09.920 -> 51:10.760] Can I beat you?
[51:10.760 -> 51:12.960] Yes, absolutely.
[51:12.960 -> 51:16.760] By having a process of how I go about doing it.
[51:16.760 -> 51:19.120] And what I do, this process is,
[51:19.120 -> 51:21.680] and this is a bit what I've learning does,
[51:21.680 -> 51:27.000] the process is basically saying, okay, I'm off six, you're off six.
[51:27.000 -> 51:29.040] So I'm now gonna put a plan in place for me
[51:29.040 -> 51:30.360] to beat you.
[51:30.360 -> 51:34.240] And the first thing is all about learning and knowledge.
[51:34.240 -> 51:35.760] So what I've done, this is what I do,
[51:35.760 -> 51:38.400] my golf net, my putting green.
[51:38.400 -> 51:40.040] I actually put a process in place
[51:40.040 -> 51:42.200] if I can really learn what this is all about.
[51:42.200 -> 51:44.760] I've got five areas, I've got the full swing,
[51:44.760 -> 51:46.680] I've got pitching, I've got short game, I've got the full swing, I've got pitching, I've got short game,
[51:46.680 -> 51:49.000] I've got bunker play and putting, just five areas.
[51:49.000 -> 51:50.600] So I'm gonna study those five areas
[51:50.600 -> 51:52.040] and I'm gonna really study them.
[51:52.040 -> 51:54.900] I'm gonna, the whole process is to really study them.
[51:54.900 -> 51:56.280] But that, when you study something,
[51:56.280 -> 51:57.840] you get all this knowledge
[51:57.840 -> 52:00.260] and then you create what I just call key points.
[52:00.260 -> 52:01.840] So out of the full swing,
[52:01.840 -> 52:03.040] I must have bucket loads of knowledge,
[52:03.040 -> 52:04.440] but out of all that stuff,
[52:04.440 -> 52:06.000] what are my four or five key points?
[52:06.000 -> 52:11.000] If I know I do bang, bang, bang better than anybody else who's six handicap, I've probably beat them.
[52:11.000 -> 52:16.000] And this is the process. When you've got your key points and you've got your checklist, how do you do them better than anybody else?
[52:16.000 -> 52:22.000] You practice for it. And that's the process. But the key thing is understanding who you're trying to beat.
[52:22.000 -> 52:23.000] You can't beat someone...
[52:23.000 -> 52:25.320] But that process can be applied to anything.
[52:25.320 -> 52:26.160] Anything you do.
[52:26.160 -> 52:28.440] And once you beat the people who are also six handicap
[52:28.440 -> 52:29.800] and you're five handicap,
[52:29.800 -> 52:32.120] do you then redo the process against the five handicap?
[52:32.120 -> 52:33.920] Then you're four, then you're, yeah, right.
[52:33.920 -> 52:35.720] You just do it.
[52:35.720 -> 52:38.240] You sitting there as a journalist,
[52:38.240 -> 52:40.040] I'd be saying to you, if I was coaching you,
[52:40.040 -> 52:42.240] I'd go, okay, we're gonna, let's break down
[52:42.240 -> 52:44.120] for you to be a successful journalist.
[52:44.120 -> 52:45.560] What are the chapters basically?
[52:45.560 -> 52:46.480] I wish I'd done that years ago.
[52:46.480 -> 52:47.520] If you're going to write a book,
[52:47.520 -> 52:48.840] but this is what,
[52:48.840 -> 52:50.280] if you're going to write a book
[52:50.280 -> 52:53.480] about being a successful broadcaster and journalist,
[52:53.480 -> 52:55.160] let's break it down what you actually do.
[52:55.160 -> 52:57.000] Let's get all this information and knowledge,
[52:57.000 -> 52:57.840] but then let's come back.
[52:57.840 -> 52:58.680] What are the key points?
[52:58.680 -> 53:00.440] If I had to have six points
[53:00.440 -> 53:01.720] for you doing this interview with me
[53:01.720 -> 53:02.960] that make it a successful interview,
[53:02.960 -> 53:04.200] what are the six points?
[53:04.200 -> 53:06.200] When you've discovered those yourself,
[53:06.200 -> 53:08.060] how am I gonna do these better than anybody else?
[53:08.060 -> 53:09.020] How am I gonna redo that?
[53:09.020 -> 53:10.900] And that's the process that's in place.
[53:10.900 -> 53:12.620] And I call it 3D learning.
[53:12.620 -> 53:15.580] So 3D learning is, the first D is discover,
[53:15.580 -> 53:16.500] always getting information,
[53:16.500 -> 53:17.680] always getting more and more knowledge,
[53:17.680 -> 53:19.060] never stop learning.
[53:19.060 -> 53:20.700] The second is distill,
[53:20.700 -> 53:22.140] distill it into key points.
[53:22.140 -> 53:24.320] So just four or five bullet points.
[53:24.320 -> 53:26.200] And then the third is do, D for do,
[53:26.320 -> 53:28.320] how do we do it better than anybody else?
[53:28.520 -> 53:34.360] That was the process we put in everything in the rugby team, a drop goal. If that drop goal doesn't go over in 2003,
[53:34.360 -> 53:36.360] I'm not sitting here talking to you all these years later.
[53:36.680 -> 53:43.400] But there's a whole process went in place about how we create the drop goal, the whole team, discover, distill, do, and there's this history.
[53:43.760 -> 53:48.320] So we do a quick fire round,ive just at the end, so what are the three non-negotiable
[53:48.320 -> 53:52.280] behaviours that you and the people around you have to buy into?
[53:52.280 -> 53:57.160] Relentless learning, which I've been called teachable, so you've got to be what I call
[53:57.160 -> 54:06.720] the sponge on a rock, that's the first one. The second one is what I call attitude. And what I do in attitude, I have 10,
[54:06.720 -> 54:09.780] I break attitude down into 10 areas.
[54:09.780 -> 54:10.920] They're non-negotiable.
[54:10.920 -> 54:13.000] One of them is punctuality, for example.
[54:13.000 -> 54:15.320] So those are the 10 things non-negotiable.
[54:15.320 -> 54:19.480] And I think the third one is what I call about pressure,
[54:19.480 -> 54:20.600] how we handle pressure.
[54:20.600 -> 54:22.400] And pressure's all about,
[54:22.400 -> 54:23.720] teachability is all about today.
[54:23.720 -> 54:26.320] Pressure's all about trying to work out what's
[54:26.320 -> 54:27.840] going to happen in the future
[54:27.840 -> 54:30.440] because then if it happens you can deal
[54:30.440 -> 54:31.560] with the pressure about it so it's
[54:31.560 -> 54:32.800] actually thinking about the future and
[54:32.800 -> 54:34.160] how we're doing things so they're the
[54:34.160 -> 54:36.920] non-negotiables but an underline in
[54:36.920 -> 54:39.040] those is four you've got to be part of
[54:39.040 -> 54:41.200] that. What advice would you give to a
[54:41.200 -> 54:43.840] young teenage Clive just starting out on
[54:43.840 -> 54:45.760] your journey knowing what you know now?
[54:45.760 -> 54:51.440] Relentless learning, write everything down and try and keep it. If I could have, Jake,
[54:51.440 -> 54:56.960] kept everything I've learned, I played for England when I was 23, which is unfortunately
[54:56.960 -> 55:01.560] nearly over 40 years ago now. If I could have kept every bit of knowledge, it's priceless.
[55:01.560 -> 55:04.200] Because you're trying to think it's in your head, you can't keep it all in your head,
[55:04.200 -> 55:06.680] you've got to write it down, keep it, store it. And sometimes
[55:06.680 -> 55:09.760] it's the old ways are the best ways, and I've worked with great coaches, great players.
[55:09.760 -> 55:13.120] And this is what Hive Learning does now, it allows you to capture it through technology.
[55:13.120 -> 55:17.120] But I wish I'd kept all that knowledge from the start, and that's what I'd say to a young
[55:17.120 -> 55:22.120] clubber as a player. Study what you do, really study, really understand it, and you'll do
[55:22.120 -> 55:23.800] it better.
[55:23.800 -> 55:25.600] How did you react to your greatest failure?
[55:26.800 -> 55:28.200] Badly, I'd say.
[55:28.500 -> 55:31.200] I think my greatest failure was not the line.
[55:31.200 -> 55:34.700] The greatest failure for me was that 99 World Cup.
[55:35.100 -> 55:36.800] Now, we had no way we're going to win it,
[55:38.100 -> 55:40.400] but I didn't expect to get bombed out in the quarterfinal.
[55:40.400 -> 55:43.800] I literally came back here and you grieve.
[55:43.800 -> 55:44.900] It's like a loss.
[55:44.900 -> 55:45.000] You know, I came back and literally you grieve, it's like a loss.
[55:45.000 -> 55:49.000] I came back and literally went to bed for about a week and then literally got out and said,
[55:49.000 -> 55:52.000] that's it, enough, feel sorry for yourself, bosh, out you go.
[55:52.000 -> 55:54.000] Are you happy?
[55:54.000 -> 56:01.000] I'm very happy, I'm extremely happy, extremely lucky in my personal life, my family life,
[56:01.000 -> 56:04.000] sport and business, I feel very, very lucky.
[56:04.000 -> 56:06.960] But I kind of pride myself, I work hard,
[56:06.960 -> 56:10.640] I can't imagine not working or not being active and working.
[56:10.640 -> 56:15.080] So I'm very lucky because A, the family, B, I'm healthy, touch wood.
[56:15.800 -> 56:17.520] How important is legacy for you?
[56:17.880 -> 56:20.280] I never think about legacy.
[56:20.280 -> 56:24.200] You know, legacy, you can't control legacy.
[56:24.200 -> 56:28.000] Legacy, all I know is, you know, everything I've done, can't control legacy legacy. All I know is you know, everything I've done I've been really lucky
[56:28.000 -> 56:30.520] I think anyone who you talk to is working me
[56:30.520 -> 56:35.560] I do throw the kitchen sink at things and I just finds you just say you can't bullshit players
[56:35.560 -> 56:37.240] You can't bullshit people in your office
[56:37.240 -> 56:39.040] They know whether you're putting it or not
[56:39.040 -> 56:43.880] And if you put it in there's a big chance you will get people's trust and respect if you don't
[56:44.120 -> 56:46.040] You won't and you can all fall out.
[56:46.040 -> 56:50.760] And the final question, and I think often almost the most important one of the whole
[56:50.760 -> 56:54.360] podcast, really, it's the final thing that you're going to leave people with.
[56:54.360 -> 56:58.920] Your one golden rule for people listening to this to live a more high performance life,
[56:58.920 -> 57:02.200] your kind of one parting message, I suppose, for people listening to this.
[57:02.200 -> 57:04.480] The big thing for me, Jake, is learning.
[57:04.480 -> 57:08.080] I think learning is such a great, great thing.
[57:08.080 -> 57:11.440] Let's face it today with the internet and technology,
[57:11.440 -> 57:12.320] there's no excuse.
[57:12.320 -> 57:13.920] There's learnings everywhere.
[57:13.920 -> 57:15.680] The moment you stop learning,
[57:15.680 -> 57:18.000] if you're going to be in a competitive environment,
[57:18.000 -> 57:19.120] you're going to come second at best.
[57:20.240 -> 57:21.680] If you can have continuous learning,
[57:21.680 -> 57:22.400] but most importantly,
[57:22.400 -> 57:24.240] get your whole team learning as well
[57:24.240 -> 57:26.320] and finding ways of filtering all this learnings
[57:26.320 -> 57:29.160] into kind of key points and objectives,
[57:29.160 -> 57:30.600] you've got half a chance.
[57:30.600 -> 57:32.440] There is a great quote, which I'll finish off.
[57:32.440 -> 57:33.600] This was actually, I read somewhere,
[57:33.600 -> 57:35.480] this was put down to Clive Woodward.
[57:35.480 -> 57:36.920] I actually got it from Nelson Mandela,
[57:36.920 -> 57:38.200] but I'll take the credit.
[57:38.200 -> 57:39.640] Lovely, take it.
[57:39.640 -> 57:42.560] You never lose, you either win or you learn.
[57:42.560 -> 57:44.920] And I think that would be my mantra,
[57:44.920 -> 57:46.680] I like to leave anybody, you never lose, you either win or you learn. Yeah. And I think that would be my mantra. I like to leave anybody, you never lose, you
[57:46.680 -> 57:47.760] either win or you learn.
[57:47.920 -> 57:49.680] And I think that's been my final legacy to
[57:49.680 -> 57:50.760] anyone who's actually worked with me.
[57:51.120 -> 57:51.600] I love that.
[57:51.640 -> 57:52.560] Listen, thank you so much.
[57:52.560 -> 57:54.120] Not just for taking time out of your day to
[57:54.120 -> 57:56.600] join us on the podcast, but opening us up to
[57:56.600 -> 57:58.040] your beautiful garden and letting us come
[57:58.040 -> 57:59.760] here and have a conversation about some of
[57:59.760 -> 58:01.360] the amazing things that you've done and
[58:01.360 -> 58:02.840] learned crucially along the way.
[58:03.280 -> 58:03.800] Thanks Jake.
[58:03.840 -> 58:04.340] Thank you.
[58:05.000 -> 58:07.000] Damien. Jake. things that you've done and learned crucially along the way. Thanks Jake, thank you.
[58:08.000 -> 58:09.000] Damien. Jake.
[58:09.000 -> 58:18.000] I'm so interested about Clive Woodward because he's a man who has built a career in a world of sport where there are so many variables,
[58:18.000 -> 58:21.000] yet he's done it solely through process.
[58:21.000 -> 58:46.160] Yes. yw'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'rol, a sgwrsodd ychydig am y profiad o'r Llywodraeth,
[58:46.160 -> 58:49.160] am sut nad yw cyfansodd y cyfansodd yn y broses linear.
[58:49.160 -> 58:53.200] Felly, rwy'n credu, y ffordd gwych i sicrhau eich bod yn ymdrech a'n ymdrech
[58:53.200 -> 58:57.200] mewn unrhyw sefyllfa fel hyn, yw ymdrech ar y nesaf, nesaf, nesaf.
[58:57.200 -> 59:00.000] Rwy'n credu bod yna ddynion sy'n brifysgol i bobl sy'n clywed hyn,
[59:00.000 -> 59:03.000] ac nid oes angen y byddwch chi eisiau bod yn well ar y sport,
[59:03.000 -> 59:06.320] yn well ar eich swydd, neu dim ond yn bwysig i'r rhain.
[59:06.320 -> 59:10.560] Y ffordd y sydd yn siarad amdano, yn enwedig ar y diwedd yno, pan ddweud am golff, er enghraifft,
[59:10.560 -> 59:16.480] mae'n ei ddangos i mewn i nifer o rhanau pethol. Ac os ydych chi'n gwella pob un o'r rhanau pethol,
[59:16.480 -> 59:20.960] ydych chi'n gwella'r holl. Ac mae hynny'n wych i bawb sy'n clywed y pod hon, rwy'n credu.
[59:20.960 -> 59:27.000] Ie, rwy'n credu. Rwy'n teimlo'n fawr cynn iawn pan fydd pobl yn siarad am gain cyfrifol.
[59:27.000 -> 59:32.000] Mae'r gyfansoddwr ymdrechol gan Verne Gambetta,
[59:32.000 -> 59:34.000] sy'n dweud pan fydd pobl yn ceisio'r gain cyfrifol,
[59:34.000 -> 59:36.000] beth maen nhw'n amlwg yn ei ddweud yw'r cyfrifiadau.
[59:36.000 -> 59:39.000] Gael y cyfrifiadau'n iawn a chynnwys nhw ar y top.
[59:39.000 -> 59:45.280] Rwy'n credu y byddai'r syniad yna olai angen i chi gael y cyfnodau yn eu lle.
[59:45.280 -> 59:47.960] Maen nhw'n eich cydweithredwyr a dyna'r broses.
[59:47.960 -> 59:54.880] Mae'r pethau o gael argyfwng, y 1%au, yn ddiddorol i fod yn dda.
[59:54.880 -> 59:55.760] Y cyfnodau.
[59:55.760 -> 59:56.240] Mae'n ddiddorol.
[59:56.240 -> 59:58.160] A gyda'n gwybod fy mod i'n ddarlithydd fawr o ffailio.
[59:58.160 -> 01:00:01.120] Mae'n ffailio'n aml, yn ffailio'n awgrym, yn ffailio'n dda.
[01:00:01.120 -> 01:00:03.200] Dwi ddim yn siŵr ei fod yn dda o ffailio,
[01:00:03.200 -> 01:00:05.760] sy'n ddiddorol oherwydd byddai wedi ffailio
[01:00:05.760 -> 01:00:07.680] llawer o weithiau yng nghanol ei gyrfa.
[01:00:07.680 -> 01:00:10.320] Ie, dyna oedd y peth yn ffasinatig iawn.
[01:00:10.320 -> 01:00:11.360] Ac mae hynny'n iawn, ar ôl i chi.
[01:00:11.360 -> 01:00:12.320] Mae'r ffailiad yn iawn.
[01:00:12.320 -> 01:00:13.280] 100%, ie.
[01:00:13.280 -> 01:00:16.480] Dwi'n credu bod y rheswm rydw i'n cerdded
[01:00:16.480 -> 01:00:18.880] i gael ei gofyn am y profiad Llywodraeth
[01:00:18.880 -> 01:00:21.280] nid oedd i fod yn ddiddorol amdano,
[01:00:21.280 -> 01:00:22.560] ond i ddeall,
[01:00:22.560 -> 01:00:25.040] na, dyna oedd yn ffailiad cyffredin iawn iddo ei wnedd, felly beth ydyn nhw wedi'i ddysgu o hynny,
[01:00:25.040 -> 01:00:29.920] a oedd yn ei helpu i fod yn cyflog gyda'r cymdeithas Olympiaidd a'r holl arweinwyr eraill
[01:00:29.920 -> 01:00:31.280] y mae wedi bod yn ymwneud â nhw?
[01:00:31.280 -> 01:00:35.040] Yr hyn sy'n dda yw, mae'n golygu, os ydyn ni'n gallu cael ein hynny'n iawn,
[01:00:35.040 -> 01:00:39.360] er mwyn ddweud nad yw hyn yn ddangos yn bennaethol neu'n dynamig neu'n hymdrech,
[01:00:39.360 -> 01:00:43.840] os ydych chi'n gallu cael y proses yn iawn, yna ydych chi'n gallu cael yr olygfa ffynedol rydych chi eisiau.
[01:00:43.840 -> 01:00:45.380] Iawn, yn unig, ond, er mwyn i unrhyw un o'r bobl sy'n clywed hynny, Dynamic or exciting if you can get the process right then you can get the end result you want
[01:00:45.460 -> 01:00:50.040] Yes, exactly. But again, I think for anyone listening to this, it's the idea that
[01:00:51.380 -> 01:00:53.240] You need to focus on the outcome
[01:00:53.240 -> 01:00:54.520] You need to know where you're heading
[01:00:54.520 -> 01:00:59.780] But you also need to be flexible about the route in which it takes you to get there and that's the process stuff
[01:01:00.040 -> 01:01:02.640] Another enjoyable conversation, wasn't it? Oh, it's been brilliant
[01:01:03.000 -> 01:01:07.040] Another enjoyable conversation, wasn't it? Oh, it's been brilliant. I
[01:01:13.440 -> 01:01:18.680] Was such an interesting opportunity to speak to Sir Clive Woodward just a quick reminder if you enjoyed the conversation that you just heard Please just wherever you get your podcasts from rate us and review us. It makes a huge difference
[01:01:18.680 -> 01:01:21.320] It means that we can reach more people than ever before
[01:01:21.400 -> 01:01:26.760] So if you can just spare a couple of minutes to do that, I would be hugely grateful.
[01:01:26.760 -> 01:01:28.040] Damien Hughes is with me.
[01:01:28.040 -> 01:01:28.880] Hey, mate.
[01:01:28.880 -> 01:01:30.480] Hi, mate. How are you?
[01:01:30.480 -> 01:01:31.520] I'm well, thanks, Professor.
[01:01:31.520 -> 01:01:32.360] How are you?
[01:01:32.360 -> 01:01:33.200] Yeah, well, good.
[01:01:33.200 -> 01:01:34.440] Thank you, Jake.
[01:01:34.440 -> 01:01:36.200] I got a lovely message this week, actually,
[01:01:36.200 -> 01:01:39.080] from Joss Butler, the England cricketer,
[01:01:39.080 -> 01:01:41.440] saying he's been enjoying the podcasts.
[01:01:41.440 -> 01:01:43.240] And we exchanged a couple of messages.
[01:01:43.240 -> 01:01:48.880] He particularly enjoyed the Sean Dyche one, but he said he's listened wedi clywed llawer o'r rhain. Fe wnaeth e ddweud y bydd y rhai o'r fathwyr
[01:01:48.880 -> 01:01:53.360] yn y Dressing Room Cymru yn cael llawer o'r podau hwn. Gwyndodd Chris Wokes
[01:01:53.360 -> 01:01:58.720] fel clywydd. Rwy'n hoffi, rydych chi'n gwybod, pan fyddwn ni'n teimlo ein bod yn defnyddio
[01:01:58.720 -> 01:02:04.000] cyflogwyr fawr i ysbrydoli cyflogwyr fawr eraill. Ie, rwy'n credu ei fod yn wir, mae'n wir yn hyfforddiol.
[01:02:04.000 -> 01:02:26.240] Rwy'n credu, rhan o'r sylwadau o'r til rydw i wedi siarad â rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r rhai o'r r ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n ddiddorol iawn i gyd i gwybod bod pobl yn dechrau meddwl am beth yw ein standardau anhygoel
[01:02:26.240 -> 01:02:31.200] neu'n siarad am sut y gallwn ni ymdrechu ag anergyfiau a chyflawni o fewn y math o amgylcheddau hynny.
[01:02:31.200 -> 01:02:35.280] Rwy'n credu os ydym yn cymdeithasu'r cyfarfodydd hynny, dwi'n credu y gall e'n helpu nhw unig.
[01:02:35.280 -> 01:02:40.240] Roedd yna adroddiad da o Alzi Clark, a dweud yn amlwg, rwy'n hoffi'r pod, dim pethau'n llwff.
[01:02:40.240 -> 01:02:50.120] Olsterhammer a dweud, dodgi'r cwestiynau ddiwylliannol, sy'n un o'r ffras i mi. Ulster Hammer said dodges the artificial questions which is another phrase that I like. Frio 27 said they love the pod and felt compelled to review it. What I
[01:02:50.120 -> 01:02:53.680] enjoy is that people seem to think exactly as you've just said that this
[01:02:53.680 -> 01:02:56.920] conversation isn't happening elsewhere and I think often when we start talking
[01:02:56.920 -> 01:03:00.880] to the guests they spend the first 15 minutes thinking oh here I go another
[01:03:00.880 -> 01:03:04.000] interview doing the rounds more press more conversations and then they
[01:03:04.000 -> 01:03:05.920] suddenly the penny drops and they're like hold on it this is not what how I'm ac yna dyma ni, newydd ymweld â'r rhan, mwy o ddysg, mwy o sgwrs, ac yna maen nhw'n dod yn y pen draw, ac maen nhw'n dweud,
[01:03:05.920 -> 01:03:09.800] mae hyn ddim yn yr hyn rwy'n siarad â phobl eraill.
[01:03:09.800 -> 01:03:15.080] Ie, rwy'n mynd yn ôl i'r ymweld â Sean Dyche,
[01:03:15.080 -> 01:03:17.040] lle dyna ni'r diwedd o'r gwrs,
[01:03:17.040 -> 01:03:19.160] ac mae'n dweud, nid oes gennym ni ymweld â chwaraewyr chwarae,
[01:03:19.160 -> 01:03:22.680] nid oes gennym ni sgwrs tactig, nid oes gennym ni sgwrs gêm arbennig,
[01:03:22.680 -> 01:03:25.000] ac rwy'n credu bod hynny i mi yn cael ei gynhyrchu
[01:03:25.000 -> 01:03:26.000] yn yr hyn rydyn ni'n ceisio ei gynhyrchu,
[01:03:26.000 -> 01:03:28.120] nad yw'n ymwneud â'r ymdrech,
[01:03:28.120 -> 01:03:29.360] mae'n ymwneud â'r bobl
[01:03:29.360 -> 01:03:31.280] sy'n digwydd i weithio yn y ymdrech,
[01:03:31.280 -> 01:03:32.320] neu'r diwydiant,
[01:03:32.320 -> 01:03:35.360] neu'r rhan yma.
[01:03:35.360 -> 01:03:36.200] Yn unig.
[01:03:36.200 -> 01:03:37.440] Ac roedd yna adroddiad dda iawn
[01:03:37.440 -> 01:03:38.520] sy'n dod ymlaen y dydd.
[01:03:38.520 -> 01:03:39.560] Dydw i ddim yn defnyddio'r enw
[01:03:39.560 -> 01:03:40.400] er mwyn iddyn nhw
[01:03:40.400 -> 01:03:41.600] ddim eu rhannu'n cyhoeddiol,
[01:03:41.600 -> 01:03:42.440] ond maen nhw wedi dweud,
[01:03:42.440 -> 01:03:43.880] rwy'n clywed y podcast,
[01:03:43.880 -> 01:03:46.600] rwy'n credu mai dyna'r gwaith gyda nhw'n well. Roeddwn i'n cael ei gynhyrchu ar ddiwedd Octobr, ar y byd 49, they don't want it to be shared publicly but they said I'm listening to the podcast I think it's the best one out there I was made redundant at the end of
[01:03:46.600 -> 01:03:50.920] October at the age of 49 having been in full-time employment since I left school
[01:03:50.920 -> 01:03:54.780] and I even had various part-time jobs well before leaving school so this is a
[01:03:54.780 -> 01:03:58.760] major change in my life and I decided to take some time out which gave me the
[01:03:58.760 -> 01:04:02.280] opportunity to listen to the full list of the high-performance podcast they're
[01:04:02.280 -> 01:04:07.600] truly inspiring and just what I needed. If only they'd been available when I left school.
[01:04:07.600 -> 01:04:09.360] And there was another message that came in
[01:04:09.360 -> 01:04:10.300] from someone saying, look,
[01:04:10.300 -> 01:04:12.400] some of the people on the pod I like,
[01:04:12.400 -> 01:04:13.740] some of the people I don't like,
[01:04:13.740 -> 01:04:17.360] but I can work out how to deal with people
[01:04:17.360 -> 01:04:19.320] I don't like or don't agree with
[01:04:19.320 -> 01:04:21.160] by listening to their point of view on the pod.
[01:04:21.160 -> 01:04:23.120] And I think that that's a big one for me
[01:04:23.120 -> 01:04:28.400] because we seem to spend our lives avoiding anyone that has a difference of opinion and just spending our time with those pod o'u sylwadau ar y pod, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n rhan fawr i mi oherwydd rydyn ni'n teimlo i rannu ein bywydau, ymdrechu unrhyw un sydd gael gwahaniaeth o ddynion ac yn ddangos ein
[01:04:28.400 -> 01:04:32.640] amser gyda'r rhai sy'n gynllunio'r hyn rydyn ni'n meddwl. Yn wir, rwy'n credu bod y cymdeithasol
[01:04:32.640 -> 01:04:36.640] ymdrech yn hynny, mae'n eithaf fel chamber echo, ond rydyn ni'n clywed ein
[01:04:36.640 -> 01:04:40.800] eiliadau'n arwain yn ôl i ni, ac felly rydyn ni'n ymdrechu bod pawb yn ein bywyd
[01:04:40.800 -> 01:04:48.800] yn meddwl yn yr un ffordd neu sy'n cydnabod y pwynt ychydig o'ch edrych. Ac, rydyn ni wedi cael cyfrifoldeb i rai o'r bobl rydyn ni wedi'i gael, rydyn ni wedi'i gael, ac rydw i'n gwybod
[01:04:48.800 -> 01:04:53.760] mae gennych Jacob, pam nad ydym ni'n ymwneud â nhw ar hyn, neu nad oeddent yn ymwneud â hyn.
[01:04:53.760 -> 01:04:58.720] Ac mae'r pwynt o ran y podcast o'r cyfrifoldeb yn eich bod, nid oes un ffordd o cyfrifoldeb,
[01:04:58.720 -> 01:05:03.120] nid oes un ddefnyddio o hynny, ac rwy'n credu yr hyn rydyn ni'n ceisio ei ddysgu yw
[01:05:03.120 -> 01:05:07.120] pob un o'r ddefnyddio a chael pobl i ddod â'u cyfrifiad eu hunain i'r cwestiwn. Ac rwy'n credu y byddwn yn ceisio darganfod y defnyddiau hynny i gael pobl i ddod â'u
[01:05:07.120 -> 01:05:12.480] gwrthdro i'r cwestiwn o'r ffordd y mae'n golygu arnoch chi. Ac rwy'n hoff iawn yn hyrwyddo pobl i meddwl
[01:05:12.480 -> 01:05:18.320] allan o'r bocs. Roedden ni'n cwrdd gyda'r diwrnod diwethaf ar y sport BT am y liniau gyrfa
[01:05:18.320 -> 01:05:22.400] o gwmpas chwaraeon a dementia. Ac rwy'n dweud i'r dynion rydw i'n gyda, rwy'n dweud,
[01:05:23.680 -> 01:05:26.700] efallai yma yn y dyfodol nad oes cynllun mewn chwaraeon, ac nid oes un o'u hyn yn gallu cyfleu chwaraeon And I said to the guys I was with, I said, you know, maybe in the future, there's no heading in football
[01:05:26.700 -> 01:05:29.680] and none of them could envisage football
[01:05:29.680 -> 01:05:31.720] without heading the ball.
[01:05:31.720 -> 01:05:34.080] Purely because we've been conditioned
[01:05:34.080 -> 01:05:35.640] to believe that that's football.
[01:05:35.640 -> 01:05:37.240] But if, when football was first invented
[01:05:37.240 -> 01:05:40.120] 100, 150 years ago, heading wasn't part of the game,
[01:05:40.120 -> 01:05:43.960] we would now be saying, you can't have heading in football.
[01:05:43.960 -> 01:05:48.000] It's like saying they can pick the ball up in the middle of the pitch.
[01:05:48.300 -> 01:05:50.300] You just can't envisage it because you've never seen it.
[01:05:50.300 -> 01:05:53.100] And I think that that is the biggest bit of learning for me from these
[01:05:53.100 -> 01:05:57.900] pods is thinking absolutely upside down, back to front, totally outside
[01:05:57.900 -> 01:06:00.800] the box. You put something up, didn't you, on your Instagram the other
[01:06:00.800 -> 01:06:04.600] day saying the light bulb wasn't invented because they improved the
[01:06:04.600 -> 01:06:05.440] candle. Someone at some point had to think, hold on, the candle's not Instagram y diwrnod hwnnw, a dweud bod y llwybr fwyaf ddim wedi'i ddifro oherwydd eu bod nhw wedi gwella'r candel.
[01:06:05.440 -> 01:06:10.480] Roedd rhywun ar un pwynt yn rhaid i'w meddwl, holio, nad oes gandel yn dda eno. Ac yn credu rhywbeth
[01:06:10.480 -> 01:06:15.920] nad oedd eich bod yn eithaf yn ymwneud â'r reality. Rwy'n cwrdd â'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i wneud, ac rwy'n gwybod bod y
[01:06:15.920 -> 01:06:22.560] sgwrs rydych chi wedi'i gael yn lawer o ffyny, Jay. Rwy'n gwybod bod y teulu o Nobby Stiles, er enghraifft,
[01:06:22.560 -> 01:06:25.680] ac rwy'n gwybod bod eu bod nhw wedi cael y ffaith bod chi wedi rhoi y sgwrs hwnnw i'r teulu o Nobby Stiles, er enghraifft, ac rwy'n gwybod bod nhw'n gweld y ffaith
[01:06:25.680 -> 01:06:29.160] o fod chi wedi rhoi'r sgwrs hwnnw i'r rhan fwyaf, yn wirioneddol yn hyfforddi
[01:06:29.160 -> 01:06:35.600] oherwydd roedd Nobby wedi marw o dementia ac maen nhw'n ymdrechu rhai o hynny i'w
[01:06:35.600 -> 01:06:40.480] gyrfa. Ond rwy'n ei gynnal y proses yr oeddech chi'n ei wneud, y test y Mad Men, ac rwy'n
[01:06:40.480 -> 01:06:44.320] ddim yn gwybod os oes gennych chi'n cofio'r series Mad Men sy'n cael ei sefydlu yn y 1960au, ac roedd
[01:06:44.320 -> 01:06:51.280] yma am yr ddangosfa adlewyrchu. Ac yr hyn rwy'n hoffi amdano oedd pan o ydych chi'n cofio'r serie Mad Men sy'n cael ei sefydlu yn y 1960au ac roedd yn ymwneud â'r diwydiant adroddiadur. Ac yr hyn rwy'n ei hoffi oedd pan rydych chi'n ei wylio, pob beth sydd heddiw,
[01:06:51.280 -> 01:06:56.960] yn eithaf anhygoel, fel y sexism, y ffwrdd yn yr ystafellau, y ddrin ar gyfer y pwll,
[01:06:56.960 -> 01:07:01.360] ac pob y prifadau hynny, rydyn ni'n gweld rhan o'r ddiddordeb o'r rhaglen yw eich bod chi'n ei wylio
[01:07:01.360 -> 01:07:06.000] gyda'r perspectif o 50 mlynedd ac yn mynd, sut allai gynnal hynny? Sut yw hynny wedi'i ddigwydd?
[01:07:06.000 -> 01:07:10.720] Ac rwy'n credu os ydych chi'n dynnu a meddwl beth y bydd pobl yn 50 mlynedd yn edrych
[01:07:10.720 -> 01:07:15.280] yn ôl at ni yn 2020 ac yn dweud, pam oeddent yn ei wneud hynny? Nid wyf yn credu bod hynny'n
[01:07:15.280 -> 01:07:20.160] gweithredaeth cyffredinol ac mae'r cwestiwn y byddwch chi'n gofyn o, gall chwaraeon ffotograff fod gwneud
[01:07:20.160 -> 01:07:29.360] heb ymdrech, yn anhygoel ar y moment ond mewn gwirionedd yn 50 mlynedd, byddent yn anrheg i played without a heading is unthinkable at the moment but actually in 50 years time they'll struggle to believe that we ever used to do that I'm sure and I
[01:07:29.360 -> 01:07:33.760] think that's the process of what we're trying to do, challenge convention,
[01:07:33.760 -> 01:07:38.320] challenge the way that things are and ask how could they be? It just comes back
[01:07:38.320 -> 01:07:43.600] to belief doesn't it? Like let's say we want to get Justin Bieber, Lewis
[01:07:43.600 -> 01:07:46.720] Hamilton, Joe Biden and'r Heddlu,
[01:07:46.720 -> 01:07:52.080] i gyd ar y podcast i gynnal sgwrs o drafodaeth. Mae'r cyfleoedd yn llai, ond
[01:07:52.080 -> 01:07:54.000] mae angen i chi credu y gallai hynny fod yn bosib.
[01:07:54.000 -> 01:07:58.240] Wel, pawb ddechrau o'r credu. Felly, y ffaith iawn y gallwch chi ei ystyried yna
[01:07:58.240 -> 01:08:01.680] dweud, felly os gallaf ffeisio, mae'n bosib. Nawr rydyn ni'n gweithio'n ôl o'r
[01:08:01.680 -> 01:08:04.160] fan hwn i ddweud, felly sut y gallwn ni wneud hynny ddigwydd?
[01:08:04.160 -> 01:08:08.640] Felly sut y gallwn ni gwybod rhywun sy'n gwybod rhywun eraill? Pan ddewisais fy nghyfnod cyntaf
[01:08:08.640 -> 01:08:13.840] yr holl blynyddoedd, byddwn i'n rhoi'r enghraifft ddiddorol o'i gyd, nad oeddwn yn gwybod beth roedd yn ei wneud
[01:08:13.840 -> 01:08:17.600] mewn nifer o ffyrdd, ac rydw i wedi gwneud llist o'r holl bobl rydw i'n hoffi ac ymdrechon ac eisiau mynd i'r
[01:08:17.600 -> 01:08:22.400] gwrthwyneb, ac un ohonynt ar y llist oedd Muhammad Ali, ac pan ddechreuais, rwy'n meddwl, wel,
[01:08:22.400 -> 01:08:27.960] pan ydw i'n gwybod y byddwn yn gwybod Muhammad Ali? Ac roedd y realiaethith oeddwn i'n gwybod Angelo Dundee, sy'n ei hyfforddiwr, a oedd yn gallu ymdrechu ati a gofyn iddo ddod i mi unrhyw amser i gofyn
[01:08:27.960 -> 01:08:32.640] rhai cwestiynau i ni, ond roedd yn y byd yn cael y credu
[01:08:32.640 -> 01:08:36.480] y byddwn i eisiau ei wneud, y byddwch chi'n gweithio'n ôl o'i gilydd a yna'n gweithio allan,
[01:08:36.480 -> 01:08:37.520] os oes modd neu ddim.
[01:08:37.520 -> 01:08:39.840] Sio, cyn i ni fynd, roedd cwestiwn da o Simon
[01:08:39.840 -> 01:08:46.720] ac mae'n dweud, dwi'n meddwl, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud, mae'n That that belief that I would like to do it that you work backwards from it and then work out whether it's possible or not
[01:08:46.720 -> 01:08:51.400] Listen before we go there was a nice question came in from Simon and he said based on the people you've had on the pod
[01:08:51.760 -> 01:08:57.600] Think of if you had your own team an owner a manager an assistant manager and a captain who would they be?
[01:08:58.240 -> 01:09:03.720] That's a brilliant question. I think we'd have to go Freddy Hearn as the owner. Okay, I would go with Holly Tucker
[01:09:03.840 -> 01:09:05.000] Okay. Yep manager manager. Ie, byddwn yn mynd gyda Holly Tucker. Ie, mae'n iawn.
[01:09:05.000 -> 01:09:06.000] Ymgyrchwr.
[01:09:06.000 -> 01:09:07.000] Ymgyrchwr.
[01:09:07.000 -> 01:09:12.000] Byddwn yn mynd i'rchyd ar...
[01:09:12.000 -> 01:09:14.000] Maurizio Pochettino.
[01:09:14.000 -> 01:09:15.000] Ie, byddwn yn cymryd hynny.
[01:09:15.000 -> 01:09:16.000] Ar hynny dwi'n hoffi.
[01:09:16.000 -> 01:09:20.000] Dwi'n hoffi'r hyder a'r decyniad o'i gilydd.
[01:09:20.000 -> 01:09:21.000] Felly, pa bod yn gweithio fel'n help?
[01:09:21.000 -> 01:09:23.000] Byddwn yn mynd ar Tracy Neville.
[01:09:23.000 -> 01:09:25.600] Dwi'n dweud Sean Dyche, just to wind up Sean Dyche.
[01:09:25.600 -> 01:09:28.400] And the captain?
[01:09:28.400 -> 01:09:30.440] I'm going to go for Ant Middleton there.
[01:09:30.440 -> 01:09:31.880] Like a cultural architect,
[01:09:31.880 -> 01:09:34.600] somebody that would lead from the front.
[01:09:34.600 -> 01:09:35.520] Wouldn't he?
[01:09:35.520 -> 01:09:38.200] Oh, who am I going to have as the captain?
[01:09:38.200 -> 01:09:39.820] I'm going to go,
[01:09:39.820 -> 01:09:41.160] I don't want to go for someone from football
[01:09:41.160 -> 01:09:43.120] because it seems too simple, doesn't it?
[01:09:43.120 -> 01:09:43.940] Yeah.
[01:09:43.940 -> 01:09:46.000] So I'm going to go for, I'm going to seems too simple, doesn't it? Yeah. So I'm gonna go for,
[01:09:53.440 -> 01:09:57.840] I'm gonna have Eddie Hearn as my captain. Two winning teams there. Blimey, I'd love to go toe-to-toe against you. Right, Damien, thank you so much as always, buddy. No, thanks, Jake, loved it.
[01:09:58.400 -> 01:10:02.160] Really enjoyed that and I hope that you enjoyed our conversation with Sir Clive Woodward. I hope
[01:10:02.160 -> 01:10:07.680] you take what Sir Clive had to say into the rest of your week. If you're new to the pod go right back to the very start of the first series and
[01:10:07.680 -> 01:10:12.640] get listening to it. You can find Damien on Instagram at liquidthinker. I'm at jakehumphrey.
[01:10:12.640 -> 01:10:17.440] The podcast is at High Performance. We're also on YouTube as well. Just search for the High
[01:10:17.440 -> 01:10:23.680] Performance podcast and subscribe on there. Check out our website highperformancepodcast.co.uk.
[01:10:23.680 -> 01:10:25.380] What we're saying is basically,
[01:10:25.380 -> 01:10:27.240] you can't get away from us.
[01:10:27.240 -> 01:10:30.320] As always, a huge thank you to Will O'Connor
[01:10:30.320 -> 01:10:31.740] for his hard work on this episode.
[01:10:31.740 -> 01:10:34.160] Also to Finn Ryan from Rethink Audio
[01:10:34.160 -> 01:10:35.720] for his efforts as well.
[01:10:35.720 -> 01:10:37.560] The biggest thanks goes to the professor.
[01:10:37.560 -> 01:10:38.380] Cheers, Damien.
[01:10:38.380 -> 01:10:40.160] Have you got any little words of wisdom
[01:10:40.160 -> 01:10:41.680] for people for the rest of their week?
[01:10:41.680 -> 01:10:42.800] I wanna quote your dad and say,
[01:10:42.800 -> 01:10:44.460] carry your beliefs lightly.
[01:10:44.460 -> 01:10:48.160] Love that one. There you go, people. Carry your beliefs lightly. You've got your end goal but
[01:10:48.160 -> 01:10:52.640] be flexible about how you get there. Have a brilliant week. Thank you very much for listening.
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