Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 21 Sep 2020 07:47:00 GMT
Duration:
1:25:42
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Jonny Wilkinson is one of the most decorated and recognisable faces in rugby history. Jonny scored 1,246 points from 97 Test appearances, the most famous being his drop goal that won the World Cup for England in 2003.
In a stellar career Jonny would accumulate four Six Nations titles with England and at club level he left Newcastle after helping them to Premiership and Powergen Cup titles and joined RC Toulon winning the Top 14 and European Cup.
But Jonny’s public success is only part of his story. He speaks frankly and inspiringly about the pressure of expectation and the mental health implications of leading a life defined by others.
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**Navigating High Performance with Jonny Wilkinson: From Rugby Star to Mental Health Advocate**
**Introduction:**
Welcome to the High Performance Podcast, where we delve into the minds of successful individuals to unlock their secrets to excellence. This week, we're joined by Jonny Wilkinson, a legendary rugby player whose career was defined by both his remarkable achievements and his struggles with mental health. Join us as we explore Jonny's journey, from his early days as a child prodigy to his rise as a World Cup-winning hero, and the profound insights he's gained along the way.
**Defining High Performance:**
Jonny's definition of high performance has evolved over time. Initially, it was about achieving specific outcomes, such as scoring points or making tackles. However, as he progressed in his career, he realized that true high performance is about absolute engagement and presence in the moment. It's about being fully attentive and involved, rather than focusing on external validation or outcomes.
**The Pressure of Perfection:**
Jonny's pursuit of perfectionism and fear of failure led him down a path of mental health struggles. He believed that by being perfect, he could avoid the sense of doom that haunted him from a young age. This obsession with perfection, coupled with the intense pressure of elite sport, created a cycle of self-importance and self-doubt.
**Rediscovering Childlike Freedom:**
Jonny emphasizes the importance of reconnecting with the childlike state of freedom and exploration. Children are not burdened by self-imposed identities or expectations. They can be anything they want to be and engage fully in each moment. Jonny believes that by letting go of the need to know who we are, we can rediscover the boundless potential and joy that comes with being open to new experiences.
**The Illusion of Pressure and Expectation:**
Jonny challenges the conventional notion of pressure and expectation in sports. He argues that these concepts are self-imposed and that we have the power to choose how we respond to external circumstances. By letting go of the thought, "What about me?" and focusing on the present moment, athletes can liberate themselves from the fear of failure and embrace the opportunity for growth and learning.
**Advice for Coaches and Parents:**
Jonny emphasizes the importance of curiosity and exploration in developing young athletes. Instead of imposing rigid expectations and focusing solely on outcomes, coaches and parents should encourage their players to be curious about their experiences, both positive and negative. This mindset fosters a love for the game and keeps passion alive.
**The Journey of Self-Discovery:**
Jonny's journey has been one of self-discovery and transformation. Through his struggles with mental health, he has learned the importance of accepting and exploring all aspects of life, including disappointment and failure. He believes that true invincibility lies in embracing challenges and allowing them to reveal new opportunities for growth and learning.
**Conclusion:**
Jonny Wilkinson's story is a powerful reminder that high performance is not just about achieving external success. It's about living a life of passion, purpose, and presence. By letting go of self-imposed limitations and embracing the unknown, we can unlock our full potential and experience the true joy of living.
## Podcast Episode Summary: Embracing the Unknown and Unleashing Potential
**Introduction:**
- Jonny Wilkinson, a renowned rugby player, shares his unique perspective on the pressure of expectations and the mental health implications of living a life defined by others.
**Key Insights:**
1. **Redefining Joy:**
- Joy is not about big smiles or happiness; it's about deep engagement in life.
- Time flies when we are deeply engaged, indicating a state of joy.
- Misunderstanding joy as a constant state of happiness leads to a superficial pursuit of smiles and laughter.
2. **Letting Go of Expectations:**
- There is no arrival; the pursuit of a future ideal prevents us from experiencing the present.
- Potential is not a fixed entity; it is limited by our ideas of what we can achieve.
- True growth comes from exploring our potential without preconceived notions.
3. **Unveiling Old Ideas:**
- Our sense of self is often shaped by old ideas and beliefs that limit our potential.
- Investigating these old ideas reveals their lack of logical foundation.
- Letting go of these ideas liberates us from self-imposed limitations.
4. **The Now as a State, Not a Time:**
- The present moment is not a result of the past; it is a state of being.
- Physical situations and memories can influence our inner state, but they do not define it.
- Choice and agency come from beyond old ideas, allowing us to create our reality.
5. **The Power of Choice:**
- Viktor Frankl's experience in Auschwitz highlights the significance of choice in determining survival.
- Choice is not limited to physical situations; it extends to our perception of ourselves and the world.
- Recognizing the power of choice empowers us to navigate challenges and create a better future.
6. **Uniting the Self:**
- Drawing lines between work, home, and other aspects of life creates artificial divisions.
- Fully engaging in any activity, regardless of its perceived importance, leads to a sense of liberation.
- Embracing the unknown with excitement rather than fear fosters a deeper connection with life.
7. **Embracing the Unknown:**
- The unknown is not something to be feared; it is an opportunity for growth and exploration.
- Excitement for the unknown is a different kind of confidence, one that embraces uncertainty.
- Letting go of control and allowing ourselves to be guided by the unknown opens up new possibilities.
**Conclusion:**
Jonny Wilkinson's journey of self-discovery and liberation from old ideas offers a profound perspective on living a life of deep engagement, joy, and unlimited potential. By embracing the unknown and choosing to live in the present moment, we can unlock our true potential and create a fulfilling and meaningful life.
## Summary of Jonny Wilkinson's Podcast Interview: Embracing the Present and Finding Fulfillment through Self-Awareness
**Introduction:**
Jonny Wilkinson, the renowned rugby player, shares his journey of overcoming mental health challenges and achieving success by embracing the present moment and developing self-awareness. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on the process rather than the outcome and highlights the transformative power of accepting oneself and one's experiences.
**Key Points:**
1. **Shifting Focus from Outcome to Process:**
- Wilkinson emphasizes the significance of shifting one's focus from the outcome to the process, thereby reducing pressure and enhancing enjoyment.
- He encourages individuals to engage fully in the present moment and appreciate the journey, rather than solely fixating on the end result.
2. **Embracing Self-Awareness and Acceptance:**
- Wilkinson stresses the importance of self-awareness in understanding one's motivations, fears, and aspirations.
- He advocates for accepting one's experiences, both positive and negative, as valuable lessons for personal growth and development.
- By embracing self-awareness and acceptance, individuals can break free from self-imposed limitations and live more authentically.
3. **Exploring Life's Creative Potential:**
- Wilkinson believes that exploring life's creative potential leads to fulfillment and a deeper connection with oneself and the world.
- He encourages individuals to pursue activities and passions that ignite their creativity and bring joy, regardless of external expectations or societal norms.
4. **Dissolving Self-Importance and Cultivating Collective Goals:**
- Wilkinson emphasizes the significance of dissolving self-importance and focusing on collective goals and shared visions.
- He advocates for prioritizing the well-being and success of the team over individual achievements.
- By working towards common objectives, individuals can experience a greater sense of purpose and fulfillment.
5. **Finding Joy in the Journey:**
- Wilkinson encourages individuals to find joy and fulfillment in the journey itself, rather than solely seeking validation through external achievements.
- He highlights the importance of appreciating the process, learning from setbacks, and celebrating small victories along the way.
6. **Accepting Imperfection and Embracing Change:**
- Wilkinson emphasizes the need to accept imperfection and embrace change as natural parts of life's journey.
- He encourages individuals to let go of the need for perfection and instead focus on continuous improvement and adaptation.
- By embracing change and accepting that life is constantly evolving, individuals can navigate challenges with greater resilience and flexibility.
**Conclusion:**
Jonny Wilkinson's podcast interview offers valuable insights into the transformative power of self-awareness, acceptance, and embracing the present moment. By shifting the focus from outcomes to the process, cultivating collective goals, and finding joy in the journey, individuals can unlock their full potential and achieve a more fulfilling and meaningful life.
## Summary of the Podcast Episode Transcript
The podcast episode features Jonny Wilkinson, one of the most celebrated rugby players, engaging in a profound conversation with Damien and Jake about mental health, pressure, and the pursuit of a fulfilling life.
1. **The Pressure of Expectations:**
- Wilkinson emphasizes the immense pressure that athletes face due to expectations from fans, media, and even themselves. He highlights the detrimental impact of constantly striving to meet these expectations, leading to mental health issues.
- He encourages athletes to explore their feelings and emotions, rather than suppressing them, to maintain a healthy mental state.
2. **The Importance of Being Present:**
- Wilkinson stresses the significance of living in the present moment and embracing the uncertainty that comes with it. He emphasizes the need to let go of the need for control and instead embrace the unknown.
- He suggests that by choosing to explore rather than control, individuals can unlock their true potential and find greater fulfillment in life.
3. **The Power of Passion:**
- Wilkinson emphasizes the importance of passion as a driving force in achieving success and fulfillment. He encourages individuals to pursue activities that ignite their passion and bring them joy.
- He highlights the importance of curiosity and a willingness to learn as essential traits for personal growth and development.
4. **Defining Happiness:**
- Wilkinson challenges the conventional definition of happiness, suggesting that it is not a constant state but rather a moment-to-moment experience. He emphasizes the importance of gratitude and appreciating the simple joys of life.
5. **The Golden Rule for a High-Performance Life:**
- Wilkinson proposes "exploration" as the golden rule for a high-performance life. He advocates for continuous exploration of oneself, one's surroundings, and one's potential.
- He believes that by exploring, individuals can uncover new possibilities, foster growth, and ultimately lead more fulfilling lives.
6. **Courage to Challenge Beliefs:**
- Damien and Jake commend Wilkinson for his courage in sharing his unique perspectives and challenging conventional beliefs, particularly in the context of sports. They express admiration for his willingness to delve into deeper conversations about mental well-being and personal growth.
Overall, the podcast episode offers valuable insights into the mental and emotional challenges faced by athletes and provides thought-provoking perspectives on achieving a fulfilling life through self-exploration, embracing the present moment, and pursuing one's passions.
Certainly! Here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript:
**Title:** Unleashing Potential: A Conversation with Rugby Legend Jonny Wilkinson
**Introduction:**
- Jonny Wilkinson, a renowned rugby player, shares his insights on pressure, mental health, and the impact of public expectations on athletes.
- Wilkinson's impressive career includes 1,246 points from 97 Test appearances, leading England to a World Cup victory in 2003.
**Key Points:**
1. **The Pressure of Public Expectations:**
- Wilkinson discusses the immense pressure athletes face due to public expectations and the media's scrutiny.
- He emphasizes the need for athletes to develop mental resilience and coping mechanisms to navigate these challenges.
2. **Mental Health and Vulnerability:**
- Wilkinson candidly talks about his struggles with mental health and the importance of seeking support when needed.
- He encourages athletes to prioritize their mental well-being and not hesitate to reach out for help.
3. **The Illusion of Control:**
- Wilkinson highlights the illusion of control athletes often experience, leading to feelings of anxiety and self-doubt.
- He emphasizes the need to focus on what is within one's control and accept the uncertainties of sports.
4. **The Power of Self-Belief:**
- Wilkinson stresses the significance of self-belief and self-confidence in achieving success.
- He shares anecdotes from his career where unwavering self-belief helped him overcome obstacles.
5. **The Importance of Team Culture:**
- Wilkinson reflects on the importance of a positive team culture in fostering success.
- He emphasizes the role of leadership, communication, and mutual respect in creating a supportive environment.
6. **The Value of Failure and Learning:**
- Wilkinson acknowledges the value of failure as an opportunity for growth and learning.
- He encourages athletes to embrace failures, learn from them, and use them as stepping stones to improvement.
7. **The Legacy of Inspiration:**
- Wilkinson expresses his desire to inspire future generations of athletes and individuals through his experiences and insights.
- He emphasizes the importance of leaving a positive legacy and making a meaningful contribution to society.
**Conclusion:**
- The podcast highlights the importance of mental resilience, self-belief, and the power of a positive team culture in achieving success in sports and beyond.
- Wilkinson's candid and insightful perspectives offer valuable lessons for athletes, coaches, and individuals seeking to unlock their full potential.
[00:00.000 -> 00:04.520] Hi there, welcome along to this week's high performance podcast.
[00:04.520 -> 00:08.720] As always, it's so nice to see the messages and the thoughts that you've had after last
[00:08.720 -> 00:13.000] week's episode, but it is really important to us if you're able to rate it and review
[00:13.000 -> 00:15.240] it and share it with as many people as you like.
[00:15.240 -> 00:17.680] Of course, you can follow us across Instagram.
[00:17.680 -> 00:22.800] I'm at Jake Humphrey, Damian is at liquid thinker, and you can also find the podcast
[00:22.800 -> 00:26.480] at high performance on Instagram and check out our youtube channel as well
[00:26.960 -> 00:31.440] This podcast is here to challenge you and this week's guest will do just that
[00:32.080 -> 00:37.840] Trust me, you simply will not be expecting the kind of conversation that you're about to hear
[00:39.840 -> 00:41.600] I want to be all I can be
[00:41.600 -> 00:46.680] And if i'm going to do that, i've got to stop looking at rugby. You know, it's a bit like winning the World Cup.
[00:46.680 -> 00:49.960] The immensity of that, the ecstasy of that moment,
[00:49.960 -> 00:53.040] incredible, but within three or four seconds,
[00:53.040 -> 00:54.600] it's on the decline.
[00:54.600 -> 00:56.480] There's no lasting nature to it.
[00:56.480 -> 00:58.160] There's that and so much more to come
[00:58.160 -> 01:00.160] from this week's fascinating guest.
[01:00.160 -> 01:00.980] Let's do it then.
[01:00.980 -> 01:03.320] It's time for this week's episode
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[03:20.680 -> 03:25.360] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey. You're listening to High Performance, the podcast that delves
[03:25.360 -> 03:30.280] into the minds of some of the most successful athletes, visionaries, entrepreneurs and artists
[03:30.280 -> 03:34.520] on the planet and aims to unlock the very secrets to their success. Now, everyone needs
[03:34.520 -> 03:38.840] a professor in their life and mine is also an author and an expert in the success of
[03:38.840 -> 03:48.000] sporting teams and cultures, Damien Hughes. Now, Damien, you'veyma ddau o bobl yn y rygbi sy'n ymddangos i ni,
[03:48.000 -> 03:52.000] beth ydych chi'n edrych arno i ddysgu amdanyn nhw?
[03:52.000 -> 03:55.000] Rwy'n credu bod un o'r sgwrs sy'n dod allan i'n gwestiynau heddiw,
[03:55.000 -> 03:59.000] yw'r gofyn, a dyna ddim yn unig yn ymwneud â'r gofyn ffysigol
[03:59.000 -> 04:02.000] sy'n angen i chi ddod allan ar y rygbi.
[04:02.000 -> 04:05.840] Dyma'r gofyn i ddechrau i siarad am rai o'r heriau,
[04:05.840 -> 04:09.840] y strydion a'r cynyddu ar gyfer pwysicaeth a chynhyrchu iechyd mental.
[04:09.840 -> 04:13.520] A rhai o'r ffactorau hyn. Mae'r gynon ni heddiw wedi dangos
[04:13.520 -> 04:17.680] llwybrau o gofyn i'r cynyddu mewn y ffordd honno, felly rwy'n mor mwynhau.
[04:17.680 -> 04:20.800] I mi hefyd. Iawn, gadewch i ni ddod â'r cwp a chael gofyn i ddewis un o'r gwaith
[04:20.800 -> 04:25.500] a gallai'n ddefnyddio'r un cyd-drech o'r Australia sy'n gynnal y Cwp Byd Cymru i A man whose career may well be defined by that one kick against Australia that won the World Cup for England
[04:25.500 -> 04:31.060] But what really interests us more is how he controlled his mind and his body to get there the struggles
[04:31.060 -> 04:36.360] He overcame the mindset he created the values that he considered to be important and as Damien just mentioned
[04:36.360 -> 04:38.360] Not just the courage he showed as a player
[04:38.360 -> 04:44.900] But the courage he showed to address the struggles that came with his chosen life. Welcome to the podcast Johnny Wilkinson
[04:44.900 -> 04:45.720] Thanks for having me.
[04:45.720 -> 04:46.780] Nice to have you with us.
[04:46.780 -> 04:48.240] Let's start as we always do.
[04:48.240 -> 04:51.800] What, in your mind, is high performance?
[04:51.800 -> 04:54.480] I think high performance is about,
[04:54.480 -> 04:56.760] if you'd asked me some of these,
[04:56.760 -> 04:58.920] I imagine these questions coming up,
[04:58.920 -> 05:01.220] midway through my career, you get a very different answer
[05:01.220 -> 05:02.560] than towards the end, and essentially,
[05:02.560 -> 05:05.120] it's a very, very different answer to where I am now,
[05:05.120 -> 05:12.480] which is high performance when I was younger was, was about outcomes.
[05:12.480 -> 05:16.040] I'd have painted a picture of, you know, it was all about whether the ball went
[05:16.040 -> 05:18.760] through the post, whether the pass hit this, whether it, you know, hit the mark,
[05:18.760 -> 05:21.840] whether the guy was tackled, whether he went backwards.
[05:21.840 -> 05:26.060] All of these things were written up on a stat sheet and that defined who you are
[05:26.060 -> 05:30.260] and whether you're a success and what have you.
[05:30.260 -> 05:32.100] As I got further down,
[05:33.720 -> 05:36.160] my exploration of performance and potential,
[05:36.160 -> 05:38.240] these things, I started to understand that,
[05:38.240 -> 05:42.400] for me, high performance is about absolute engagement.
[05:43.580 -> 05:45.000] Instead of at the time of playing rugby,
[05:45.000 -> 05:48.620] it was more about what does a good game look like?
[05:48.620 -> 05:49.980] What does a good number 10 look like?
[05:49.980 -> 05:51.020] What does a good career look like?
[05:51.020 -> 05:52.080] I look at it now, I've been like,
[05:52.080 -> 05:54.820] what would be a great life lived?
[05:55.720 -> 05:59.880] And no answer satisfied me until I sort of started
[06:00.620 -> 06:05.400] to vaguely feel right, which was all of me in every moment,
[06:05.400 -> 06:06.560] and that's performance.
[06:06.560 -> 06:10.500] You're either fully attentive and engaged,
[06:10.500 -> 06:12.260] or you're not.
[06:12.260 -> 06:14.900] And that presence, that, I guess,
[06:14.900 -> 06:17.560] that deep involvement is performance.
[06:17.560 -> 06:19.800] There's, for me, there's no other way of defining it.
[06:19.800 -> 06:22.040] The out-to-in version of outcomes,
[06:22.040 -> 06:24.580] and, you know, ticks, and all those sort of things,
[06:24.580 -> 06:26.460] and crosses, is what led me down the
[06:26.460 -> 06:28.460] route of great mental health
[06:28.860 -> 06:33.140] Was more of a manifestation of my my kind of conflicted in a state
[06:33.860 -> 06:38.280] and breaking out of that is where I suddenly realized all the flow or the
[06:39.080 -> 06:43.240] Intuition or the feel or the grace and all the real
[06:43.760 -> 06:45.200] possibility lied and and I kind of fought that for the most of my career until the end when I the grace, and all the real possibility lied.
[06:45.200 -> 06:47.740] And I kind of fought that for most of my career
[06:47.740 -> 06:48.980] until the end when I gave in to it
[06:48.980 -> 06:51.720] and suddenly started to find all that passion again.
[06:51.720 -> 06:53.760] So do you think that you could have lived
[06:53.760 -> 06:57.000] in this present, flow-like, passionate,
[06:57.960 -> 07:01.060] completely engaged state when you were playing rugby?
[07:01.060 -> 07:03.320] Or did you need, when you were an elite rugby player,
[07:03.320 -> 07:09.360] to be obsessed with the stats? Because that was what was going to determine whether you won or lost a game?
[07:09.360 -> 07:15.560] It's a good question but it's quite a simple answer is that that's how I lived between
[07:15.560 -> 07:17.040] the whistles.
[07:17.040 -> 07:23.080] So on a Saturday afternoon for the majority of the time between half two and four o'clock
[07:23.080 -> 07:24.980] I was in that state.
[07:24.980 -> 07:27.280] That's why I was able to do what I did.
[07:27.280 -> 07:29.160] The thing was is I just created an idea,
[07:29.160 -> 07:32.400] as most people do, that that state is revealed
[07:32.400 -> 07:36.200] or earned through great suffering and sacrifice.
[07:36.200 -> 07:39.400] So there seems to be this deep understanding,
[07:39.400 -> 07:41.720] which I've explored and experienced otherwise,
[07:41.720 -> 07:45.260] since that by suffering and stressing and fighting you
[07:45.260 -> 07:50.320] somehow end up in a joyful flowing state whereas my understanding my own
[07:50.320 -> 07:55.300] experience of it tended to be that by spending my time suffering stressing and
[07:55.300 -> 07:58.820] sacrificing what I did was create stronger habits of suffering stressing
[07:58.820 -> 08:03.380] and sacrificing it's a bit like the whole kind of you know when I grow up
[08:03.380 -> 08:06.440] when I get my car when I get my promotion when I get my family when I get my car, when I get my promotion, when I get my family,
[08:06.440 -> 08:08.480] when I get my big house, when I get to retirement,
[08:08.480 -> 08:10.120] that's when my joy is going to hit me,
[08:10.120 -> 08:11.680] when I've got enough money.
[08:11.680 -> 08:15.640] But then even when you've got the boat in the sunny port,
[08:15.640 -> 08:17.760] you're still suffering and setting for the next thing.
[08:17.760 -> 08:20.880] And unfortunately, there's become a new one,
[08:20.880 -> 08:22.360] which has taken shape more recently,
[08:22.360 -> 08:26.440] which is going to leave no opportunity for turning inward,
[08:26.440 -> 08:28.360] which is people now think that leaving a legacy
[08:28.360 -> 08:31.320] after once they've gone was what bring joy.
[08:31.320 -> 08:33.300] I mean, it's ludicrous, and that's kind of where I was.
[08:33.300 -> 08:34.920] You know, my whole rugby career was like,
[08:34.920 -> 08:35.900] I'm going to suffer through this
[08:35.900 -> 08:38.140] because I'm going to leave the greatest mark.
[08:38.140 -> 08:40.880] It's like, well, what happens to just flourishing,
[08:40.880 -> 08:42.280] enjoying and loving life?
[08:42.280 -> 08:44.840] And then you realize that being in a changing room
[08:44.840 -> 08:46.600] before a game is where you see it happen.
[08:46.600 -> 08:50.760] You see that fragility of people that believe in themselves.
[08:51.700 -> 08:55.400] This idea that self-belief is going to create
[08:55.400 -> 08:58.780] self-exploration on the field is crazy.
[08:58.780 -> 09:01.580] Self-belief represents itself as fragility.
[09:01.580 -> 09:03.340] Look at anyone that's in the middle of self-belief,
[09:03.340 -> 09:06.040] you'll see someone who's covering up fear.
[09:06.040 -> 09:08.500] Look at someone who's willing to be open to the future
[09:08.500 -> 09:10.600] and say, let's just see.
[09:10.600 -> 09:14.240] You'll see someone who's physically and mentally ready.
[09:14.240 -> 09:15.580] But the story always ends with,
[09:15.580 -> 09:17.780] I'm always fine when the whistle goes.
[09:17.780 -> 09:19.340] Which is like saying, well, I've spent my time
[09:19.340 -> 09:22.080] in the changing room trying to live ahead of myself,
[09:22.080 -> 09:24.840] and when the whistle goes, I'm prepared to live now.
[09:24.840 -> 09:26.680] Why not just live now all the time?
[09:26.680 -> 09:30.360] And it's been my exploration for the last 15 years
[09:30.360 -> 09:35.360] because of mental health issues
[09:35.440 -> 09:39.080] that left me in nowhere else to turn but inwards.
[09:39.080 -> 09:44.080] And there I've never found anything of substance,
[09:44.840 -> 09:45.000] anything of truth, I've found nothing solid. I've certainly found anything of substance,
[09:47.800 -> 09:49.060] anything of truth, I've found nothing solid, I've certainly found no boundaries,
[09:49.060 -> 09:51.560] all I've found is opportunity,
[09:52.400 -> 09:56.500] space and deeper dimensions of experience.
[09:56.500 -> 09:59.820] See, Johnny, it sounds that a lot of that description
[09:59.820 -> 10:01.620] that you've given in terms of what you've found
[10:01.620 -> 10:04.040] describes childhood in many ways.
[10:04.040 -> 10:06.400] You don't see a child planning for the future,
[10:06.400 -> 10:08.200] they play in the moment, in the playground,
[10:08.200 -> 10:11.920] it's the immediate.
[10:11.920 -> 10:14.400] So would you say that some of what you've discovered
[10:14.400 -> 10:16.560] is almost coming back to that childhood state
[10:16.560 -> 10:18.800] of playing for the pleasure of it,
[10:18.800 -> 10:20.280] living for the moment?
[10:20.280 -> 10:22.280] I look at the childhood experience
[10:22.280 -> 10:23.780] and I remember for my own that
[10:30.400 -> 10:33.280] you're able to become whatever you need to become to make the most of every moment like the child says I'm gonna be an astronaut They are an astronaut. They're not me pretending to be an astronaut
[10:33.280 -> 10:38.080] they become an astronaut because there isn't that sense of this is who I who I really am and
[10:38.520 -> 10:41.840] Therefore I'm pretending they haven't got an idea of who they are yet
[10:41.840 -> 10:46.080] So they can be anything they want which means they can engage fully in any moment.
[10:46.080 -> 10:48.040] The imagination is vibrant
[10:48.040 -> 10:52.200] because there isn't this solid path to who I've become.
[10:54.280 -> 10:57.420] The thing is, though, is that that childhood experience
[10:57.420 -> 11:00.900] for me, in my exploration of things, is unconscious.
[11:00.900 -> 11:03.120] It's an unconscious freedom, which means it can be lost,
[11:03.120 -> 11:06.900] and it is lost, and it's influenced by the outside.
[11:06.900 -> 11:10.640] And by me being, falling into that cycle
[11:10.640 -> 11:13.320] of trying to become someone, that self-importance
[11:13.320 -> 11:16.400] of wanting to know myself and knowing how the world works,
[11:16.400 -> 11:19.340] is that that's the path towards going back
[11:19.340 -> 11:22.200] to that childlike experience, but consciously.
[11:22.200 -> 11:24.080] So without the experience for me
[11:24.080 -> 11:25.540] of suffering the mental health stuff, there was no way of going back but consciously. So without the experience for me of suffering the mental health stuff,
[11:25.540 -> 11:28.380] there was no way of going back there consciously.
[11:28.380 -> 11:30.280] And there's no other route but to,
[11:30.280 -> 11:33.780] the only way to go back to being free of the identity
[11:33.780 -> 11:35.080] of who I become, you know,
[11:35.080 -> 11:38.160] is to, I want to say, just let it go.
[11:39.400 -> 11:42.280] But essentially what that means is it's got to die.
[11:42.280 -> 11:43.360] Now that sounds very strong,
[11:43.360 -> 11:45.520] but it's almost like in order to fully live,
[11:45.520 -> 11:48.360] you need to, are you willing to die to fully live?
[11:48.360 -> 11:50.800] Or are you just living to die?
[11:50.800 -> 11:52.400] Now that's the thing for me is that I got to a point
[11:52.400 -> 11:54.860] where I was protecting this old identity.
[11:54.860 -> 11:57.340] It's all this stuff that had become me.
[11:57.340 -> 12:02.060] I use the kind of way of articulating it for me is that
[12:02.060 -> 12:03.140] this is not so much experience,
[12:03.140 -> 12:04.880] it's so much concepts and ideas.
[12:04.880 -> 12:07.440] I came into this world with a leaning
[12:07.440 -> 12:09.440] towards picking things up in certain ways.
[12:09.440 -> 12:11.380] And that leaning goes back generations
[12:11.380 -> 12:13.020] or goes back culturally
[12:13.020 -> 12:15.560] or whatever you want to call it previously.
[12:15.560 -> 12:18.220] And that leaning was to start to shape things,
[12:18.220 -> 12:19.560] understandings in certain ways.
[12:19.560 -> 12:21.240] And one of the understandings I picked up very early
[12:21.240 -> 12:22.900] was about mortality.
[12:24.600 -> 12:27.740] And it scared the hell out of me at a very, very young age.
[12:27.740 -> 12:29.700] Probably younger than normal.
[12:29.700 -> 12:32.780] And what was it that triggered that fear?
[12:32.780 -> 12:33.620] I don't know.
[12:33.620 -> 12:37.580] That was just, there was a sense of doom about being alive.
[12:37.580 -> 12:38.420] Right.
[12:38.420 -> 12:41.160] And that for me was in the mortality.
[12:41.160 -> 12:42.500] And what I did was sort of say, right,
[12:42.500 -> 12:46.480] I need to come up with an answer to mortality
[12:46.480 -> 12:49.580] and from a childlike state, what I came up with
[12:49.580 -> 12:53.860] kind of was just a big self-belief or big belief
[12:53.860 -> 12:57.420] that if I'm perfect, when I get to the pearly gates
[12:57.420 -> 12:59.480] I'd heard about, I'm gonna hand over my CV
[12:59.480 -> 13:01.060] and be like, come on, that's good enough to get in,
[13:01.060 -> 13:02.240] isn't it?
[13:02.240 -> 13:04.180] And I needed ticks everywhere.
[13:04.180 -> 13:05.000] So that would decide, yeah,
[13:05.000 -> 13:07.000] therefore my definitions of what's good, bad.
[13:07.000 -> 13:11.000] So all the uncontrollables in life just destroyed me.
[13:11.000 -> 13:12.000] And therefore what I-
[13:12.000 -> 13:14.000] Are you obsessed with perfection at this point?
[13:14.000 -> 13:18.000] In order to rid myself of this sense of doom.
[13:18.000 -> 13:20.000] So there wasn't a pleasure in the perfection,
[13:20.000 -> 13:21.000] which is where the compulsive-
[13:21.000 -> 13:23.000] What age are we talking, Joe?
[13:23.000 -> 13:26.280] From, yeah, from, I I Guess four or five, you know
[13:26.280 -> 13:33.820] So your your daily actions and your daily thoughts at four or five years old started determined by this desire to get rid of
[13:33.820 -> 13:39.800] The feeling of doom. Well, yeah to a degree. I mean when I'm to us it's not like it wasn't every moment
[13:39.800 -> 13:40.480] Yeah, I was a child
[13:40.480 -> 13:45.440] I love like I want to play basketball and I played played rugby and I had my friends and it was great.
[13:45.440 -> 13:48.240] But often there were periods where I just fell
[13:48.240 -> 13:50.880] into these big holes where it became whatever.
[13:50.880 -> 13:55.880] And I created this idea that by being perfect,
[13:56.920 -> 14:01.560] I would be spared the, you know, that would be my,
[14:01.560 -> 14:04.360] I guess my, yeah, my solace.
[14:04.360 -> 14:06.740] Yeah, that'd be my saving grace.
[14:06.740 -> 14:11.620] And as a result, I then unfortunately had at the same time
[14:11.620 -> 14:14.640] a ridiculous passion for competitive sport.
[14:14.640 -> 14:16.560] So now I'm going into competitive sport
[14:16.560 -> 14:18.440] with a need to be perfect.
[14:18.440 -> 14:20.600] Now competitive sport is an environment
[14:20.600 -> 14:22.720] where you've got a lot of other people
[14:22.720 -> 14:24.580] also wanting to have their way
[14:24.580 -> 14:25.740] and you can't guarantee anything.
[14:25.740 -> 14:31.800] So therefore I had a passion mixed with a deep kind of understanding of life that
[14:31.800 -> 14:37.940] put me in a state before games and after games in terms of over analysis and, and
[14:37.940 -> 14:43.040] the anticipation beforehand, just crippling fear of this idea that what I was about to
[14:43.040 -> 14:45.920] go through or what I'd, what I'd already been through, it defined me.
[14:47.040 -> 14:50.760] And that no matter the crazy thing was, no matter what I'd been through, how many kicks I'd missed
[14:51.160 -> 14:56.880] the next game held the opportunity to rid myself of that, which was a kind of almost counter sort of
[14:57.520 -> 15:03.480] my own belief that I could somehow change my past by being more perfect in the, in the next game.
[15:03.480 -> 15:05.040] So I just put more and more pressure on the next game
[15:05.040 -> 15:08.480] So this idea in rugby that you're only as good as your last game and your next game will define you
[15:08.740 -> 15:14.120] Just added to the fuel to the fire. So I said I fortunately there that when you were talking about it
[15:14.640 -> 15:19.880] Like unfortunately, I was obsessed with being perfect and I loved elite sport
[15:21.120 -> 15:22.800] Isn't there an element though of?
[15:22.800 -> 15:30.780] Fortunately, I was obsessed with being perfect I loved elite sport because I was of the opinion that the reason why you became the leading rugby player of your generation
[15:31.080 -> 15:35.100] Was the combination of obsession and love for the sport?
[15:35.240 -> 15:41.680] Yeah, yeah, maybe or was it in spite of that that you still got to the top? No, there's it's all in there
[15:41.680 -> 15:43.680] Yeah, I'm sure it's all in there
[15:44.800 -> 15:52.720] But It was a classic journey towards heading down a dark hole.
[15:52.960 -> 15:58.960] There's no other way for it to go because, and the inevitable part of that cycle is
[15:59.080 -> 16:03.980] as I was succeeding a bit more, I was reinforcing those old ideas.
[16:03.980 -> 16:07.360] They were getting stronger and stronger and stronger stronger and you could hear it in the way
[16:07.360 -> 16:13.460] I was speaking and I call that doesn't matter what those ideas are whether they're negative or positive about yourself
[16:13.900 -> 16:19.960] When they get reinforced they become more important. Therefore call that self-importance knowing who you are
[16:20.600 -> 16:23.200] with more and more surety becomes self-importance and
[16:24.400 -> 16:29.580] that self-importance was clearly evident
[16:29.620 -> 16:30.560] in everything I spoke about.
[16:30.560 -> 16:32.400] So as an 18 year old, you mentioned that childlike side.
[16:32.400 -> 16:34.300] I went to Newcastle as an 18 year old, I'm stood around
[16:34.300 -> 16:37.600] Inga Tweag and Marla and Rob Andrew and Dean Ryan and, and
[16:37.600 -> 16:40.560] Pat Lamb and, and these, you know, Gary Armstrong and Doddy
[16:40.560 -> 16:42.980] Will, all these amazing, I mean, I could name the lot.
[16:42.980 -> 16:44.320] I just thought I'll just name the international team.
[16:44.320 -> 16:46.560] I'm like, oh shit, the entire team is an international team.
[16:47.200 -> 16:50.160] And, um, and I was just a kid in that.
[16:50.280 -> 16:55.080] And if I got five minutes, if I got two minutes or one play in the team run
[16:55.080 -> 16:58.000] before a game, I was on the bench most of the time in that first year, or
[16:58.000 -> 16:59.200] for half the first half of the year.
[17:00.000 -> 17:04.480] If I got on the team run, the session before the game, if I got on there for
[17:04.480 -> 17:08.680] one play, I was kind of like, Whoa, when I did get on there, I was just like, look what
[17:08.680 -> 17:09.360] I'm going to give it.
[17:09.800 -> 17:12.360] Fast forward eight, 10 years.
[17:13.380 -> 17:14.280] I'm the guy in the changing room.
[17:14.280 -> 17:17.880] And the only thing I'm talking about is pressure, expectation.
[17:18.260 -> 17:20.040] I'm judging the hell out of everyone around me.
[17:20.040 -> 17:20.880] You're not professional.
[17:20.880 -> 17:22.120] All the guys are wasted time.
[17:22.360 -> 17:23.040] They'll never make it.
[17:23.040 -> 17:24.120] Now it needs to be like this.
[17:24.120 -> 17:25.940] Oh God, you know, that coaching is rubbish.
[17:25.940 -> 17:27.560] They should be the, this is what I'm talking like.
[17:27.940 -> 17:28.980] Go back 10 years.
[17:29.520 -> 17:30.500] I'm just opportunity.
[17:30.540 -> 17:32.500] I'm a walking embodiment of opportunity.
[17:32.660 -> 17:32.820] Yeah.
[17:32.820 -> 17:33.280] Passion.
[17:34.020 -> 17:37.740] Now the only result of that is self-importance because when I was 18, I'm
[17:37.740 -> 17:39.820] like, I'm a nobody, I've got nothing to lose.
[17:39.860 -> 17:40.780] I'm just exploring.
[17:41.140 -> 17:42.220] Now I'm a somebody.
[17:42.700 -> 17:44.860] I've got everything to lose and that's why I'm feeling pressure.
[17:44.860 -> 17:45.840] I've become solid. So those'm a somebody I've got everything to lose and that's why I'm feeling pressure. I've become solid.
[17:45.960 -> 17:48.800] So those forces are all compressing me.
[17:49.160 -> 17:50.620] Whereas when I'm nothing, I'm just fluid
[17:50.800 -> 17:51.440] hence flow.
[17:51.720 -> 17:53.840] So nothing can, I just, wind blows me this
[17:53.840 -> 17:54.120] way.
[17:54.320 -> 17:55.480] I don't need to stand against it.
[17:55.480 -> 17:56.520] Cause I'm not this direction.
[17:56.520 -> 17:57.320] I'll go any direction.
[17:57.760 -> 17:59.600] You look at the most beautiful geniuses on
[17:59.600 -> 18:00.120] the field.
[18:00.920 -> 18:01.800] They're not solid.
[18:01.920 -> 18:03.120] So they bend, they flow.
[18:03.120 -> 18:03.320] They are.
[18:03.320 -> 18:04.080] Hold your beliefs.
[18:04.080 -> 18:05.280] Like, look at, look at a Zidane or a Federer.
[18:05.400 -> 18:06.160] The ball goes here.
[18:06.160 -> 18:08.160] It's kind of like, they don't expect
[18:08.600 -> 18:11.000] anything or they expect everything at the
[18:11.000 -> 18:11.440] same time.
[18:11.440 -> 18:12.240] It's the same thing.
[18:12.480 -> 18:14.440] It's otherwise known as being completely
[18:14.440 -> 18:15.800] open and ready.
[18:16.520 -> 18:20.640] Now, what I was before the game was just
[18:20.680 -> 18:23.800] absolute rigidity, but on the field you let
[18:23.800 -> 18:25.560] go because you,
[18:25.560 -> 18:29.560] because what I designed myself into was a plug
[18:29.560 -> 18:32.560] that fit the socket of rugby on the field.
[18:32.560 -> 18:34.520] So anywhere that wasn't on that field,
[18:34.520 -> 18:36.360] I couldn't plug in.
[18:36.360 -> 18:38.400] At home, I'd be thinking about the next game.
[18:38.400 -> 18:39.600] After the game, I'd be thinking about this game.
[18:39.600 -> 18:40.480] If I'm trying to eat a meal,
[18:40.480 -> 18:41.640] I'd be half thinking about this.
[18:41.640 -> 18:42.480] Am I doing this?
[18:42.480 -> 18:43.300] How do I look?
[18:43.300 -> 18:44.720] But as soon as I went onto the rugby field,
[18:44.720 -> 18:48.000] that first whistle went, who I'd become fit that socket.
[18:48.000 -> 18:50.000] You plug in and suddenly you talk about being in the zone
[18:50.000 -> 18:54.000] and effortless, but as soon as the referee blows his whistle
[18:54.000 -> 18:58.000] and says penalty, suddenly I'm like, now it's about me.
[18:58.000 -> 19:02.000] So the way I articulate that self-importance is the thought,
[19:02.000 -> 19:04.000] what about me?
[19:04.000 -> 19:06.160] Now as soon as you see a referee give a penalty,
[19:06.160 -> 19:08.700] you look at a kicker, moments before they're playing
[19:08.700 -> 19:10.240] the game and they're just effortless.
[19:10.240 -> 19:12.500] As soon as they, suddenly the referee blows a whistle,
[19:12.500 -> 19:14.660] you see them change, they go,
[19:14.660 -> 19:16.700] and you're like, well hold on, just be as you were, why?
[19:16.700 -> 19:18.940] Because the thought, what about me, comes in.
[19:18.940 -> 19:20.280] And it may be, what if I miss this,
[19:20.280 -> 19:23.040] but it ultimately reduces down to,
[19:24.000 -> 19:25.960] what about me if I miss this and
[19:26.700 -> 19:32.980] Then people talk about like I did self-importance are the pressure the expectation but take away the thought what about me
[19:34.020 -> 19:37.800] Where's pressure take away the thought what what happens if this goes wrong?
[19:38.300 -> 19:43.780] Where's fear of failure and it just comes down to self-importance and what it was was I'd allowed myself
[19:43.880 -> 19:46.320] To think that I knew who I was and I knew how
[19:46.320 -> 19:47.320] life worked.
[19:47.320 -> 19:49.620] And as a result, I had that to protect.
[19:49.620 -> 19:51.420] And now I'm talking about pressure and expectation.
[19:51.420 -> 19:55.580] So when I hear that, I say, I realized more towards the end of my career that I was just
[19:55.580 -> 19:58.620] kind of like, there's no such thing.
[19:58.620 -> 20:01.460] It's up to me how I am on the inside.
[20:01.460 -> 20:03.800] And what I just didn't know I was doing it.
[20:03.800 -> 20:04.800] Now I do.
[20:04.800 -> 20:05.200] It's my choice now.
[20:05.200 -> 20:07.200] So can I ask you a question then, Johnny, around
[20:07.200 -> 20:10.700] we get a lot of people listening to this that are teachers or sports coaches
[20:10.700 -> 20:12.700] They may have switched off by now, is that what you're saying?
[20:12.700 -> 20:13.200] They may have gone.
[20:13.200 -> 20:15.200] No, no, no, but I think that
[20:15.200 -> 20:17.200] some of the characteristics you described
[20:17.200 -> 20:19.200] that some of the, like a traditional sports coach
[20:19.200 -> 20:21.200] would see you as the perfect player
[20:21.200 -> 20:25.400] you're the embodiment of what I want my players to do.
[20:25.400 -> 20:28.040] And yet you're challenging that convention.
[20:28.040 -> 20:31.360] So what advice would you give to a parent
[20:31.360 -> 20:33.920] with an aspiring sports child or a coach
[20:33.920 -> 20:37.440] or somebody to avoid that trap of building up
[20:37.440 -> 20:40.960] this idea of perfection or self-importance?
[20:40.960 -> 20:42.840] There is no right or wrong.
[20:42.840 -> 20:45.140] It's the very nature of lack of self-importance.
[20:45.140 -> 20:46.680] There is no good, bad, right, and wrong.
[20:46.680 -> 20:48.020] It's just, it just is.
[20:48.020 -> 20:50.380] There's a deep acceptance to everything.
[20:50.380 -> 20:51.520] And what I mean by that is there's also
[20:51.520 -> 20:52.640] an exploration to everything.
[20:52.640 -> 20:56.760] So if a, and that's where, when you talk about childlike,
[20:56.760 -> 20:59.720] it's the curiosity that comes with it
[20:59.720 -> 21:01.320] that means that anything's a possibility.
[21:01.320 -> 21:04.160] So if there's great disappointment,
[21:04.160 -> 21:07.040] be curious about the disappointment.
[21:07.040 -> 21:08.840] Don't be angry at the situation.
[21:08.840 -> 21:11.240] Be curious about the, so it's an inward journey.
[21:11.240 -> 21:14.600] And if you point inwards, there's no limit there.
[21:14.600 -> 21:18.740] So a degree of just pure curiosity, exploration,
[21:18.740 -> 21:21.580] with the aim of finding new space,
[21:22.500 -> 21:29.160] which is new opportunity, which keeps passion alive. So how much was that encouraged for you in the dressing room environments you
[21:29.160 -> 21:32.640] were going into? Well you probably know the answer to that already. You know we
[21:32.640 -> 21:37.040] had team talks where before a game you know you have this week and I'm chatting
[21:37.040 -> 21:40.560] to the boys before a big game I'm saying let's just go out there let's just do it.
[21:40.560 -> 21:43.400] It's what we've trained for it's beautiful to be here what a privilege.
[21:43.400 -> 21:45.720] Just go out there and love every moment.
[21:45.720 -> 21:47.680] I mean, breathe it in, yeah,
[21:47.680 -> 21:49.560] and then you go in and the coach says,
[21:49.560 -> 21:50.880] boys, we can't lose this one.
[21:50.880 -> 21:51.840] If we lose it on the Suzo,
[21:51.840 -> 21:54.120] I'm sat there going, right.
[21:54.120 -> 21:55.400] Now that's that energy gone,
[21:55.400 -> 21:59.080] and you can feel the energy palpably change.
[22:00.560 -> 22:04.960] The fact is you ask any coach or captain or player,
[22:04.960 -> 22:06.640] what do you want from your team?
[22:06.640 -> 22:11.060] I just I want them to to perform brilliantly. So what do you need them to feel?
[22:11.060 -> 22:16.680] I want them to feel at their very best. So if that's the case look at everything you're doing
[22:17.200 -> 22:22.360] What do I need for myself? I want to feel liberated. Okay is what you're doing liberating you or
[22:23.240 -> 22:25.220] Doing the opposite is what you're doing for your team or doing the opposite? Is what you're doing for your team
[22:25.220 -> 22:27.100] allowing them to be all they can be
[22:27.100 -> 22:31.260] or are you needing them to be how you want them to be?
[22:32.100 -> 22:33.600] I have a situation now, you mentioned about
[22:33.600 -> 22:36.580] the conventional idea of what I brought to the game
[22:36.580 -> 22:38.180] was a lot of practice and dedication.
[22:38.180 -> 22:40.120] Now when that was through passion,
[22:40.120 -> 22:42.440] it's not work, it's not dedication.
[22:42.440 -> 22:44.440] It's just enjoying your damn life.
[22:44.440 -> 22:45.680] It's doing what you love doing
[22:45.680 -> 22:46.920] and spending all your time doing it.
[22:46.920 -> 22:48.460] I say that to anyone, what they'll tell you is,
[22:48.460 -> 22:49.860] it sounds like a holiday.
[22:49.860 -> 22:51.180] That's what it was, it was a choice.
[22:51.180 -> 22:52.800] Now, when it becomes effort,
[22:52.800 -> 22:56.000] people think that's somehow courageous and worthy.
[22:56.000 -> 22:58.800] It's like, no, it's just a loss of passion.
[22:58.800 -> 23:00.880] And what that means is there's no new space.
[23:00.880 -> 23:03.760] If anyone feels like they're improving and they're growing,
[23:03.760 -> 23:07.000] there'll be passion. No one steps away from a journey when you feel like,
[23:07.000 -> 23:08.000] I've just opened a new,
[23:08.000 -> 23:09.000] no one, you don't go into a house and go,
[23:09.000 -> 23:12.000] oh, this is rubbish, and then you see a door,
[23:12.000 -> 23:13.000] and you're like, that door's unlocked, wow,
[23:13.000 -> 23:14.000] and then just walk off.
[23:14.000 -> 23:16.000] You go in the door, you're suddenly like,
[23:16.000 -> 23:17.000] I wonder what's in there.
[23:17.000 -> 23:18.000] That's what the journey is.
[23:18.000 -> 23:21.000] So the journey of that is to reveal new space in everything,
[23:21.000 -> 23:23.000] reveal the space of opportunity in disappointment,
[23:23.000 -> 23:26.780] reveal the space of opportunity in disappointment, reveal the space of opportunity in losing.
[23:26.780 -> 23:32.460] Now, there was stories about change or invincibility for me was that people were standing there
[23:32.460 -> 23:38.740] being like, we haven't lost, we're unbeaten or we can do this, we're not going to lose.
[23:38.740 -> 23:46.800] Now, that same invincibility or sense of invincibility also parades itself in this feeling deep down
[23:46.800 -> 23:49.600] of being like, I hope the opposition don't travel well.
[23:49.600 -> 23:50.900] I hope their lead guy's injured.
[23:50.900 -> 23:52.700] I hope that guy's not playing or he has a tough game.
[23:52.700 -> 23:56.160] I hope the ref's on our side or that win dies down.
[23:56.160 -> 23:58.360] I mean, there's no invincibility there at all.
[23:58.360 -> 24:00.680] Now look at the invincibility of someone
[24:00.680 -> 24:01.960] that sits in the changing room and says,
[24:01.960 -> 24:04.720] you know what, if we win, that's gonna be awesome
[24:04.720 -> 24:06.880] and I'm gonna do everything to win
[24:07.800 -> 24:12.180] But if things don't go my way, I know that's gonna bring out so much more of me
[24:12.640 -> 24:14.640] So I would love to win this game
[24:14.880 -> 24:19.400] But I would also love to be challenged and to not have it my way now that's invincibility
[24:19.400 -> 24:24.960] Sure, not someone going out there being like I can do this and I can make it happen. It's gonna go my way now
[24:26.680 -> 24:27.520] What does that look like as a person that goes on the field? Look at a boxer.
[24:27.920 -> 24:29.240] Look at any team that's unbeaten.
[24:29.320 -> 24:31.960] You start to see them get more and more shady.
[24:31.960 -> 24:34.640] The performances get worse and worse, less exploratory.
[24:34.800 -> 24:34.960] Yeah.
[24:35.000 -> 24:39.280] It's a movement away from potential because it's a movement away from exploring.
[24:39.720 -> 24:44.880] So yeah, the point for me as a, as a kid was that success is either an external
[24:44.880 -> 24:45.700] thing or an external thing
[24:45.700 -> 24:51.480] or an internal thing and being determined by what happens on the outside, which is up
[24:51.480 -> 24:53.680] for everyone to have their involvement in.
[24:53.680 -> 24:59.880] If some of you can't control determines some of you can control as a degree of, of an issue
[24:59.880 -> 25:00.880] there.
[25:00.880 -> 25:06.480] Now, surely you control what you can control and you allow what's on the outside to be an exploration.
[25:07.520 -> 25:08.820] It's not being painted that way.
[25:08.820 -> 25:15.040] And as a result, a lot of solid people for me have been wound to be, this is who I am.
[25:15.600 -> 25:18.760] And now being unplugged from the rugby environment through injury or through the
[25:18.760 -> 25:21.080] end of their career, and then I go around trying to plug that in.
[25:21.660 -> 25:25.520] And the only thing that half seems to fit is if I can get back into coaching, that kind of fits,
[25:25.840 -> 25:26.920] but not, not fully.
[25:26.920 -> 25:28.080] I'm not fully charged from that.
[25:28.120 -> 25:31.240] Maybe punditry, but eventually like this isn't the same.
[25:32.080 -> 25:38.880] I remember Stuart Lancaster telling a story when he took over the national team, where he asked the
[25:38.880 -> 25:44.480] players to do a survey to tell them what was the greatest experience of a team environment that
[25:44.480 -> 25:47.180] they'd ever been in and why.
[25:47.180 -> 25:49.000] And the answer that he got was twofold.
[25:49.000 -> 25:52.060] Most people spoke about playing as a child
[25:52.060 -> 25:53.380] or in their amateur clubs,
[25:53.380 -> 25:55.220] because he said, and the reason was,
[25:55.220 -> 25:56.840] I was playing with my friends,
[25:56.840 -> 25:58.580] so people I enjoyed the company of.
[25:58.580 -> 26:00.820] And the second one was, we played for the fun of it
[26:00.820 -> 26:05.000] rather than the outcome of a goal and things like that.
[26:05.000 -> 26:11.520] And it sounds like you're trying to shift the dial to do that, but what's your appetite
[26:11.520 -> 26:18.680] for actually getting into rugby to actually get that conversation to be more common?
[26:18.680 -> 26:26.060] So I work with the kickers in the England team and
[26:31.960 -> 26:32.700] That's the journey the journey is a journey of understanding that when you let go of old
[26:34.700 -> 26:35.240] conclusions you
[26:37.500 -> 26:38.080] Regain the opportunity to define
[26:44.360 -> 26:44.600] Redefine everything. So when you say about I was playing with my friends. Well, why can't we be friends in here?
[26:45.120 -> 26:46.500] Why are we strangers?
[26:46.500 -> 26:48.160] Now that's a definition.
[26:48.160 -> 26:51.360] It's the same way that you're willing to allow your family
[26:51.360 -> 26:52.480] so many things to go on there,
[26:52.480 -> 26:53.740] but with other people it's not,
[26:53.740 -> 26:56.200] but it's like, well, where does family end and stop?
[26:56.200 -> 26:58.240] Now that's just an exploration.
[26:58.240 -> 27:01.880] It's a definition that because I was born into this line,
[27:01.880 -> 27:03.640] this is my family and you are not.
[27:03.640 -> 27:06.260] But that line of where I draw the line
[27:06.260 -> 27:07.640] will determine where I draw the line
[27:07.640 -> 27:09.220] on my enjoyment of life.
[27:09.220 -> 27:10.920] Now if everyone becomes family,
[27:10.920 -> 27:12.520] and I connect to everyone,
[27:12.520 -> 27:14.480] then you're in that state.
[27:14.480 -> 27:16.380] What about why is it for the fun of it?
[27:16.380 -> 27:18.500] Well, if it's just passionate for now,
[27:18.500 -> 27:19.480] and it's about performance
[27:19.480 -> 27:21.040] and exploring what you're capable of,
[27:21.040 -> 27:22.380] that's fun.
[27:22.380 -> 27:24.160] So put that at the top of the list.
[27:24.160 -> 27:27.260] Everything is achievable, the world can be how you want it,
[27:27.260 -> 27:30.480] unless we're unconsciously holding onto old ideas,
[27:30.480 -> 27:32.360] which are doing that definition for us.
[27:32.360 -> 27:34.760] So what's the response then when you go into this world
[27:34.760 -> 27:37.000] of old ideas and start talking like this?
[27:37.000 -> 27:38.680] Because it's so refreshing to hear,
[27:38.680 -> 27:41.840] but what's the general reaction to this?
[27:41.840 -> 27:43.200] It doesn't come across like this.
[27:43.200 -> 27:44.960] You guys have asked me a direct question
[27:44.960 -> 27:46.160] and I'm responding directly.
[27:46.240 -> 27:47.880] If I was working with someone on
[27:47.880 -> 27:50.180] skills, you go back in through the
[27:50.180 -> 27:51.200] door that they present.
[27:51.480 -> 27:51.720] Right?
[27:52.000 -> 27:53.580] So it's a, it's a gradual movement
[27:53.580 -> 27:55.920] towards an ultimately the, you could
[27:55.920 -> 27:57.200] get there straight away with a simple
[27:57.200 -> 27:58.240] answer of like, what's the most
[27:58.240 -> 27:59.040] important thing to you.
[27:59.960 -> 28:03.520] And it comes down to performance.
[28:03.800 -> 28:07.680] And then that comes down to health and happiness.
[28:07.680 -> 28:09.480] And you're kind of like, let's go there then.
[28:09.480 -> 28:10.560] But you can't do it straight away,
[28:10.560 -> 28:13.920] because health and happiness is perceived as a kind of like,
[28:13.920 -> 28:16.720] it's almost a separate journey to being on the field,
[28:16.720 -> 28:17.720] where it's all about this.
[28:17.720 -> 28:19.440] But if you had a chat with someone recently,
[28:19.440 -> 28:21.360] and they were saying, someone's told me to be,
[28:21.360 -> 28:24.320] yeah, they think I should find more joy in my playing.
[28:24.320 -> 28:26.420] I'm like, right, tell me what joy feels like for you.
[28:26.420 -> 28:28.980] And the answer I didn't get was big smiles on the field
[28:28.980 -> 28:30.460] and I'm joyful.
[28:30.460 -> 28:34.640] They were like, it's kind of like just when I'm fully in it.
[28:34.640 -> 28:36.840] I'm like, there you go, that's deep engagement.
[28:36.840 -> 28:38.440] Misunderstanding of what joy is
[28:38.440 -> 28:41.020] is that smelling the roses involves big smiles.
[28:41.020 -> 28:45.000] Now laughing is a definite sign of joy, real deep laughter,
[28:45.000 -> 28:49.000] but it's because you're deeply involved in the situation.
[28:49.000 -> 28:50.500] You look at someone who's pretending to laugh
[28:50.500 -> 28:51.500] or trying to laugh,
[28:51.500 -> 28:53.500] you'll see something far from joy.
[28:53.500 -> 28:55.500] The same way you see someone trying to laugh on a field,
[28:55.500 -> 28:58.000] when that's not deeply engaging you.
[28:58.000 -> 29:01.000] So you say, well, how do we get joy in everything?
[29:01.000 -> 29:03.000] You just deeply engage.
[29:03.000 -> 29:04.000] And then what happens?
[29:04.000 -> 29:07.180] Time flies. Now I watch, I love the odd film,
[29:07.180 -> 29:10.180] and time flies for me when I'm watching a film,
[29:10.180 -> 29:12.240] and I might be like, geez, that was incredible,
[29:12.240 -> 29:14.540] but I'm deeply engaged, and time flies.
[29:14.540 -> 29:15.640] That's what joy is.
[29:15.640 -> 29:16.940] It's a deep engagement in life.
[29:16.940 -> 29:19.100] It's not about smiles and happiness.
[29:19.100 -> 29:21.360] So what we say is, I want to be healthy and happy.
[29:21.360 -> 29:23.340] So what does that mean to you?
[29:23.340 -> 29:24.440] Well, let's get that.
[29:24.440 -> 29:28.660] Now, what's stopping you from deeply engaging in this this an idea that it's not as it should be
[29:28.700 -> 29:31.980] It's not good enough for me. It's not right enough for me. It doesn't fit with who I am
[29:32.160 -> 29:36.300] So you're like well, let's change let's work on that. So that every moment fit
[29:36.300 -> 29:40.080] I don't understand how you let go though. I sit here listening to this and I am
[29:40.760 -> 29:44.500] jealous of the things you're talking about because I want to live in a life of
[29:42.840 -> 29:46.720] I'm jealous of the things you're talking about because I want to live in a life of deep engagement,
[29:46.720 -> 29:49.280] fully committed, I want to flow,
[29:49.280 -> 29:51.180] I want to have that growth mindset
[29:51.180 -> 29:53.760] and a flexible perspective towards everything.
[29:53.760 -> 29:57.320] But then I, you know, I'm also looking at other people
[29:57.320 -> 29:58.760] and thinking, oh, they're doing well,
[29:58.760 -> 29:59.840] why am I not doing well?
[29:59.840 -> 30:01.000] And then I'm wondering whether I'm being
[30:01.000 -> 30:02.240] a good enough parent to my kids
[30:02.240 -> 30:04.280] and I know that I've got a really busy week coming up
[30:04.280 -> 30:10.760] and I know that I haven't spoken to my parents. I feel like I'm carrying with me external pressures external expectations
[30:11.560 -> 30:14.400] Internal pressures and expectations, but I don't want them
[30:14.560 -> 30:15.060] Yeah
[30:15.060 -> 30:19.380] And there'll be lots of people listening to this probably coming at it from the same anger go bloody hell
[30:19.380 -> 30:24.200] I I want to live a free life like Johnny's explaining
[30:24.200 -> 30:30.460] Yeah I want to live a free life like Johnny's explaining Yeah, if you can get there from where you were as the rugby player representing his country a couple of decades ago
[30:30.980 -> 30:34.920] Then I I'd like to think all of us can because you've come from a really
[30:36.580 -> 30:37.820] Full-on
[30:37.820 -> 30:43.980] Very different mindset. So if you were able to move I like to think that all of us can how do we do it?
[30:43.980 -> 30:48.400] but I think that all of us can. How do we do it? I think that for a start, there is no arrival.
[30:48.400 -> 30:49.240] There's no, like we said,
[30:49.240 -> 30:50.760] that otherwise you fall back into the idea
[30:50.760 -> 30:52.720] that I'm going to arrive at retirement,
[30:52.720 -> 30:55.280] and all that work is going to be worth it.
[30:55.280 -> 30:57.800] It's a bit like winning the World Cup.
[30:57.800 -> 31:01.120] The immensity of that, the ecstasy of that moment,
[31:01.120 -> 31:04.180] incredible, but within three or four seconds,
[31:04.180 -> 31:05.680] it's on the decline. There's no lasting nature to it. And that's kind of, but within three or four seconds it's on the decline.
[31:05.680 -> 31:07.720] There's no lasting nature to it.
[31:07.720 -> 31:10.040] And that's kind of, then a day later you're like,
[31:10.040 -> 31:12.520] oh, and then two months later you're in big trouble
[31:12.520 -> 31:14.280] because now you're way down at the bottom of the hill
[31:14.280 -> 31:16.120] looking back at my glory days,
[31:16.120 -> 31:17.360] and then you add injury to that,
[31:17.360 -> 31:20.120] and whatever, you go through that experience.
[31:20.120 -> 31:21.800] So there is no part where you think,
[31:21.800 -> 31:23.080] oh, it's going to be this.
[31:23.080 -> 31:27.420] The very nature of having an idea of what my potential is
[31:27.420 -> 31:29.160] is what prevents you from going there.
[31:29.160 -> 31:32.500] Sort of have a story about this where you sort of say,
[31:32.500 -> 31:33.860] you know, you say to someone,
[31:33.860 -> 31:34.860] just go into that room with you
[31:34.860 -> 31:36.860] and just find your potential for me.
[31:36.860 -> 31:37.900] And if they come back with anything,
[31:37.900 -> 31:39.800] you're like, you're moving further away from it.
[31:39.800 -> 31:42.780] If they come back and say, what do you mean?
[31:42.780 -> 31:43.620] I don't even know what I'm looking for.
[31:43.620 -> 31:45.840] You're like, now we're on the right track.
[31:45.840 -> 31:47.920] The point is, if you've got an idea of what your best is,
[31:47.920 -> 31:50.260] it isn't your best, it's just your next limit.
[31:50.260 -> 31:52.280] It's a limit to your best.
[31:52.280 -> 31:54.800] So how do you know you're going in the right direction then?
[31:54.800 -> 31:56.760] Good question, now we're talking.
[31:56.760 -> 31:58.360] That's the kind of curiosity.
[31:58.360 -> 32:02.400] Now, the thing for me that makes this a big opportunity,
[32:02.400 -> 32:05.140] or that it did for me, was that I built myself hugely
[32:05.140 -> 32:08.300] on the idea that who I am was a result
[32:09.440 -> 32:10.700] of everything I've been through,
[32:10.700 -> 32:12.380] and it's quite a common one.
[32:12.380 -> 32:14.120] It sort of falls in line with the idea
[32:14.120 -> 32:16.240] that I'm just a physical being.
[32:16.240 -> 32:19.180] So, like, my body's the result of all the food I've eaten,
[32:19.180 -> 32:20.760] all the growth, and all the scars I've got.
[32:20.760 -> 32:22.360] It's all linked in there.
[32:22.360 -> 32:25.520] But if I align who I am with that physical existence
[32:30.600 -> 32:31.200] You have mind and body. I'm just on the decline from the day. I'm born. I'm dying
[32:35.800 -> 32:36.360] Yeah, I don't like these terms. I probably would reword this far as generous again, but but you know, I'm on the decline
[32:41.800 -> 32:43.080] But when you realize when you just seek a bit deeper for ask the big questions about who I am
[32:46.200 -> 32:47.460] There's no beginning, no end. It's already there.
[32:47.460 -> 32:49.800] And I think it's the same way that people talk.
[32:49.800 -> 32:53.720] So investigating that as an opportunity is big.
[32:54.900 -> 32:57.340] And the way, one way to do it is just to look at,
[32:57.340 -> 33:01.500] right, well, if I catch you on a day where you're just
[33:03.700 -> 33:05.960] feeling good, you're just feeling good, and I say,
[33:05.960 -> 33:09.160] well, tell me about that period of your life,
[33:09.160 -> 33:10.760] and you'll be like, yeah, it's funny,
[33:10.760 -> 33:12.160] it's like, sort of thing happened,
[33:12.160 -> 33:13.880] and I think I've learned so much from it,
[33:13.880 -> 33:15.480] and now look at the world for me.
[33:15.480 -> 33:17.880] But if I catch you on a rough day,
[33:17.880 -> 33:19.160] and I say, tell me about that same period,
[33:19.160 -> 33:21.240] you'll be like, bloody world was against me.
[33:21.240 -> 33:22.760] What I mean by the point of that is,
[33:22.760 -> 33:25.360] is that if you're a result of what you've been through,
[33:25.360 -> 33:29.520] how can you have two separate causes for the same effect?
[33:30.360 -> 33:32.200] Surely there's one true way, is there not?
[33:32.200 -> 33:34.280] The point is that for me,
[33:35.360 -> 33:38.040] who I am now is not a result of what I've been through.
[33:38.040 -> 33:39.920] What I've been through is a result
[33:39.920 -> 33:41.540] of how I choose to be now.
[33:41.540 -> 33:42.380] Right.
[33:42.380 -> 33:44.660] And so you understand that if you start
[33:44.660 -> 33:45.200] to explore that choice if you start to explore
[33:45.200 -> 33:48.000] that choice, you start to realize that everything
[33:48.000 -> 33:51.600] you've been through doesn't decide who you are.
[33:51.600 -> 33:52.880] Now you're talking about being liberated,
[33:52.880 -> 33:54.840] but how could you possibly be liberated
[33:54.840 -> 33:57.020] if you're a product of something?
[33:57.020 -> 33:59.200] The same way that people talk about leadership,
[33:59.200 -> 34:01.000] and yet one of the biggest values is,
[34:01.000 -> 34:03.320] who I am is just a result of all I've been through.
[34:03.320 -> 34:05.560] But people in an unpredictable world determine your situation, and therefore a result of all I've been through. But people in an unpredictable world
[34:05.560 -> 34:08.160] determine your situation, and therefore,
[34:08.160 -> 34:10.020] they're deciding what you've been through.
[34:10.020 -> 34:11.820] They're deciding how you are now.
[34:11.820 -> 34:14.360] So other people in the world hold your potential,
[34:14.360 -> 34:16.120] or do you hold your potential?
[34:16.120 -> 34:18.680] So once you get excited about that opportunity
[34:18.680 -> 34:20.720] to be like, you know, I'm going to go deeper.
[34:20.720 -> 34:23.240] So I did it, I went looking for who I am.
[34:23.240 -> 34:24.320] Where did you look?
[34:24.320 -> 34:25.500] Good question, straight away, you're kind of like,
[34:25.500 -> 34:28.000] well hold on, there's a voice in my head.
[34:28.000 -> 34:29.460] Whose is it?
[34:29.460 -> 34:31.780] These feelings I've got, who do they belong to?
[34:31.780 -> 34:35.000] And all I found was just a load of old ideas.
[34:35.000 -> 34:36.000] I never found anything.
[34:36.000 -> 34:38.180] And I've been acting, I've been acting on behalf
[34:38.180 -> 34:42.360] of this apparent me, and I couldn't find it.
[34:42.360 -> 34:46.480] I asked for a meeting, and He didn't turn up
[34:46.480 -> 34:50.200] And I'm looking at being like what gee so where's it coming from? They're just all ideas now
[34:51.080 -> 34:55.280] Exploring those old ideas. There was no logic to any of them. There's no logic to any of them
[34:55.280 -> 35:00.580] Even the what was the biggest one that didn't make sense to you probably
[35:01.840 -> 35:07.360] being a result of who I am now because or other ones would be I had all these immense fear of
[35:07.920 -> 35:11.960] The failure and future and all those kind of things and they were so true
[35:12.780 -> 35:15.760] When I was younger and yet on one day, I'd be so happy
[35:16.280 -> 35:17.280] And I'd be like, hold on
[35:17.280 -> 35:21.900] How can I be happy if those are still there if they're true?
[35:21.900 -> 35:24.520] They must be constant and if they're constant, they're still there
[35:24.520 -> 35:26.320] So how can I be happy?
[35:26.320 -> 35:27.240] And you create this idea that,
[35:27.240 -> 35:29.360] oh, I'm just distracted from it.
[35:29.360 -> 35:32.480] But no, I'm not distracted, because I'm fully engaged.
[35:32.480 -> 35:34.240] So I'm not taking my mind off elsewhere
[35:34.240 -> 35:35.240] and trying to think of nice things.
[35:35.240 -> 35:37.280] I'm just fully, so how can I fully engage
[35:37.280 -> 35:40.800] in what I'm doing if there's this potential consequence
[35:40.800 -> 35:42.640] that I need to think about?
[35:42.640 -> 35:45.360] I realized that the problem for me
[35:46.440 -> 35:49.280] had always been living in my mind.
[35:50.840 -> 35:55.000] And what that meant was that my old ideas of who I was
[35:56.920 -> 36:01.720] was deciding for me my memory and my imagination.
[36:01.720 -> 36:03.800] So I wasn't in control of my memory and imagination.
[36:03.800 -> 36:06.320] As I let go of those old ideas, my memory expands and my imagination. So I wasn't in control of my memory and imagination. As I let go of those old ideas,
[36:06.320 -> 36:08.960] my memory expands and my imagination opens.
[36:08.960 -> 36:11.220] So I start to be able to piece together
[36:11.220 -> 36:13.240] old things I've been through in my life.
[36:13.240 -> 36:15.340] I can piece them together in different orders
[36:15.340 -> 36:18.080] to create different imaginations.
[36:18.080 -> 36:20.520] Whereas before, that's who I was and how I got here.
[36:20.520 -> 36:23.000] So all I could do was translate that into the future.
[36:23.000 -> 36:25.380] That's how I have to get away from here.
[36:25.380 -> 36:28.180] Whereas now, it's the same understanding that people,
[36:28.180 -> 36:31.400] I get the impression that people think that the now
[36:31.400 -> 36:33.080] is a result of the past.
[36:33.080 -> 36:34.240] I would think that.
[36:34.240 -> 36:35.680] Yeah, but it's not.
[36:35.680 -> 36:37.280] Show me the past.
[36:37.280 -> 36:39.860] Well, yeah, but the now for me is like
[36:39.860 -> 36:41.920] sitting here having this conversation with you.
[36:41.920 -> 36:42.760] Right.
[36:42.760 -> 36:44.560] Whilst thinking, I don't want to be home too late
[36:44.560 -> 36:46.360] because we've had a busy few days
[36:46.360 -> 36:51.120] And my wife be putting both the kids to bed. Yeah, but I know I put that beef in the AGA this morning
[36:51.120 -> 36:54.200] So at least there's some food made. Yeah, that's all stuff that happened in the past
[36:54.400 -> 36:59.880] Yeah, all of which is determining what I'm feeling now. Yeah, so even though we're having this
[37:00.480 -> 37:03.860] Remarkable and brilliant conversation. There is still a part of my brain obviously
[37:04.800 -> 37:06.680] Cracking on with stuff that's already happened in the past remarkable and brilliant conversation. There is still a part of my brain obviously
[37:04.200 -> 37:08.520] cracking on with stuff that's already
[37:06.680 -> 37:12.120] happened in the past. But that
[37:08.520 -> 37:15.600] now has become the content of the
[37:12.120 -> 37:19.680] world, not the experience of it. So
[37:15.600 -> 37:23.440] the idea that now is a time you have
[37:19.680 -> 37:25.880] to try to get into or live in
[37:23.440 -> 37:26.960] instead of the now being a state you live through.
[37:26.960 -> 37:27.800] Does that make sense?
[37:27.800 -> 37:29.640] Are you familiar, Jonny, with the work of Viktor Frankl?
[37:29.640 -> 37:31.320] So did you explore his stuff in this?
[37:31.320 -> 37:32.420] No.
[37:32.420 -> 37:34.720] Because I'm hearing some parallels with it
[37:34.720 -> 37:35.560] that intrigue me.
[37:35.560 -> 37:37.880] So Viktor Frankl was a psychotherapist
[37:37.880 -> 37:41.320] that he was captured as a prisoner in Auschwitz.
[37:41.320 -> 37:42.160] Yeah.
[37:42.160 -> 37:44.100] And the stats of Auschwitz is that only one
[37:44.100 -> 37:46.120] in every 28 people that went in there would
[37:46.120 -> 37:49.400] ever survive it and he was one of them.
[37:49.400 -> 37:53.280] And when he was finally released he wrote a book about the experience called Man's Search
[37:53.280 -> 38:00.160] for Meaning where he asked the question of why did I survive and 28 other people wouldn't.
[38:00.160 -> 38:04.560] And the premise that he came to was this idea of choice, about constantly recognizing how
[38:04.560 -> 38:05.840] powerful choice was.
[38:05.840 -> 38:08.760] And lots of people, he describes it as,
[38:08.760 -> 38:11.720] they were almost overwhelmed by the horror of the Holocaust,
[38:11.720 -> 38:14.960] quite understandably, whereas he chose to interpret it
[38:14.960 -> 38:17.280] in a way and said that he was a caregiver.
[38:17.280 -> 38:18.720] So he said, I'm now gonna play the role
[38:18.720 -> 38:20.000] of being the caregiver and the person
[38:20.000 -> 38:22.240] that encourages others and gives them hope
[38:22.240 -> 38:24.480] that there's a better future for them.
[38:24.480 -> 38:27.720] And he felt that understanding the power of choice
[38:27.720 -> 38:29.920] was central in terms of his survival,
[38:29.920 -> 38:31.800] not physically but mentally.
[38:31.800 -> 38:33.560] I think what you're talking about is,
[38:33.560 -> 38:34.920] going back to combining the two,
[38:34.920 -> 38:39.920] is that when the now becomes a physical situation,
[38:40.440 -> 38:41.880] then yes, past exists.
[38:41.880 -> 38:44.520] So the physical, the material side of this world for me,
[38:44.520 -> 38:45.800] yeah, where I park my car
[38:45.800 -> 38:50.260] I'm hoping that's where I'm gonna find it when I finish. It's the same deal, but it's physical
[38:51.080 -> 38:52.360] but when
[38:52.360 -> 38:53.920] Who I am
[38:53.920 -> 38:59.400] Becomes physical I fall into the same laws and that choice goes because how can I have choice?
[38:59.760 -> 39:04.080] You know if I'm gonna try and work through the physical because the physical is what it seems obviously actually
[39:04.640 -> 39:05.840] You can go a lot deeper
[39:05.840 -> 39:08.360] into that physical side, it's not actually what it seems,
[39:08.360 -> 39:11.220] but on the surface, it's cause and effect.
[39:11.220 -> 39:14.400] So when you invest in the situation,
[39:14.400 -> 39:18.840] physical situation determines my inner state,
[39:18.840 -> 39:20.160] you fall into that stage.
[39:20.160 -> 39:23.160] The difference is, for me, is where choice comes from
[39:23.160 -> 39:25.280] is beyond old ideas.
[39:25.280 -> 39:28.440] As soon as I decided this is who I am,
[39:30.020 -> 39:33.820] that decided for me immediately this is how I see things,
[39:33.820 -> 39:36.040] that decided immediately for me this is how I'm going
[39:36.040 -> 39:38.520] to feel about things that happen to and around me,
[39:38.520 -> 39:40.920] which decided this is what I'm going to do about it,
[39:40.920 -> 39:43.500] which decides what I create.
[39:43.500 -> 39:46.200] That decision of how I see myself
[39:46.200 -> 39:49.540] immediately translates to what I can create in the world,
[39:49.540 -> 39:51.640] which is why when people start to create different things,
[39:51.640 -> 39:54.900] it always relates to a shift of how they see themselves.
[39:54.900 -> 39:56.660] So when people say things like,
[39:56.660 -> 40:00.320] mostly when it goes through difficult times,
[40:00.320 -> 40:01.800] for me it was a mental health thing,
[40:01.800 -> 40:03.800] and there's still loads and loads
[40:03.800 -> 40:05.200] of interesting challenges for me, but a mental health thing, and there's still loads and loads of interesting challenges for me,
[40:05.200 -> 40:07.860] but with those challenges,
[40:07.860 -> 40:10.500] always affects at the level of how I see myself,
[40:10.500 -> 40:12.060] and when there's a shift there,
[40:12.060 -> 40:13.620] there's a shift everywhere.
[40:13.620 -> 40:15.260] But what tends to be the case is that
[40:15.260 -> 40:16.800] when you're looking at,
[40:16.800 -> 40:18.700] when I find, when I was younger,
[40:18.700 -> 40:20.680] looking at, I want to change what I create,
[40:20.680 -> 40:22.900] I went back as far as how I feel,
[40:22.900 -> 40:23.740] and then when I got older,
[40:23.740 -> 40:26.740] I tried to go back to how I see things, but I never went back
[40:26.740 -> 40:29.900] to exploring how I see myself.
[40:29.900 -> 40:31.780] And as a result, you just end up creating
[40:31.780 -> 40:32.620] more and more problems.
[40:32.620 -> 40:33.740] It's like trying to feel differently
[40:33.740 -> 40:35.760] than how you see things, no chance.
[40:35.760 -> 40:37.100] Trying to see things differently
[40:37.100 -> 40:39.660] to how you start to see yourself won't work.
[40:39.660 -> 40:40.500] But most people talk about,
[40:40.500 -> 40:41.540] oh, if you keep doing the same thing,
[40:41.540 -> 40:42.500] you'll keep getting the same thing.
[40:42.500 -> 40:43.660] It's like, well, if you keep seeing yourself
[40:43.660 -> 40:46.560] the same way, the whole thing's done.
[40:46.560 -> 40:50.400] So there has to be a desire to look inwards honestly
[40:50.400 -> 40:51.240] at some of the-
[40:51.240 -> 40:53.040] It feels like a very brave thing to do, though.
[40:53.040 -> 40:54.960] It kind of, it panics me a little bit
[40:54.960 -> 40:56.680] when I think about doing it, you know?
[40:56.680 -> 41:00.280] Yeah, but I think because the idea being is that
[41:00.280 -> 41:04.840] if all I've been through has become my worth and my value,
[41:04.840 -> 41:06.240] then letting that go is, of course,
[41:06.240 -> 41:07.680] you're letting go of everything.
[41:07.680 -> 41:09.800] But actually, my experience is,
[41:09.800 -> 41:11.800] is you just ask, how do you feel at your very best?
[41:11.800 -> 41:15.800] And the answer to that is, I feel liberated.
[41:15.800 -> 41:16.960] And when you're at your very best,
[41:16.960 -> 41:19.880] are you thinking about who I am and how I'm a great person?
[41:19.880 -> 41:22.600] No, you're just free of those thoughts.
[41:22.600 -> 41:28.360] So in a way, every moment you get where you're outside of thought, you're engaged.
[41:28.360 -> 41:32.720] Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
[41:32.720 -> 41:36.440] With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring
[41:36.440 -> 41:38.160] our prices down.
[41:38.160 -> 41:42.080] So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing.
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[42:27.640 -> 42:32.360] store. Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone.
[42:32.560 -> 42:36.500] On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a
[42:36.500 -> 42:41.000] better way so you can live a better life and that's why when I found Mint Mobile
[42:41.000 -> 42:49.200] I had to share. So Mint Mobile ditched retail stores and all those overhead costs and instead sells their phone plans online and passes
[42:49.200 -> 42:53.120] those savings to you. And for a limited time they're passing on even more
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[43:33.360 -> 43:39.520] Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan, bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts.
[43:39.520 -> 43:47.340] So ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's limited time deal and get premium wireless service for just $15 a month.
[43:47.340 -> 43:52.260] To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just $15
[43:52.260 -> 43:56.100] a month, go to mintmobile.com.hpp.
[43:56.100 -> 43:59.460] That's mintmobile.com.hpp.
[43:59.460 -> 44:06.280] Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintm dot-com slash HPP additional taxes fees
[44:06.280 -> 44:11.160] and restrictions apply see mint mobile for details what about if you feel free
[44:11.160 -> 44:15.040] when you're not at work but you have to do your job to pay your bills or you
[44:15.040 -> 44:18.680] feel free when you're not with your wife and children and that scares the living
[44:18.680 -> 44:22.480] daylights out of you because you want to be with your wife and children that
[44:22.480 -> 44:26.040] will create difficult conversations for people I think but yeah
[44:26.040 -> 44:28.440] I agree, but any line that's been drawn between
[44:29.000 -> 44:31.000] any line that divides
[44:31.100 -> 44:36.120] You know this from this is a definition right because there is no line
[44:37.000 -> 44:41.180] Anywhere else you look at right now. Well the physical line of the body
[44:41.920 -> 44:45.360] Investigate it explore it deeply, there's no line there.
[44:45.360 -> 44:46.920] It's just one field.
[44:46.920 -> 44:50.480] You know, even from a perspective of a tree, you can't draw a line around a tree and go
[44:50.480 -> 44:52.620] that's where the tree stops.
[44:52.620 -> 44:55.440] The tree involves the soil.
[44:55.440 -> 44:58.480] The tree doesn't just stop, the soil is constantly exchanging with the tree.
[44:58.480 -> 45:02.300] Yeah, it's everything is one, everything is connected.
[45:02.300 -> 45:05.200] So every time we draw a line between us and someone else,
[45:05.200 -> 45:06.800] it's our line.
[45:06.800 -> 45:09.120] And every time we draw a line between work and home,
[45:09.120 -> 45:10.920] that's our line.
[45:10.920 -> 45:12.200] Now you could say, oh, well I'm at work,
[45:12.200 -> 45:14.080] I'm at this office, but it's kind of like,
[45:14.080 -> 45:17.240] right, but when you're at home, what is it?
[45:17.240 -> 45:19.680] It's me and this moment.
[45:19.680 -> 45:21.080] What are you doing at the office?
[45:21.080 -> 45:23.080] It's me and this moment.
[45:23.080 -> 45:25.600] Those lines are our choice, you mentioned,
[45:25.600 -> 45:26.960] albeit really difficult ones.
[45:26.960 -> 45:31.320] And I had a chat with a triathlete who was saying to me,
[45:31.320 -> 45:34.760] I've made an analogy about how when I was younger,
[45:34.760 -> 45:36.760] I'd be like, oh, you know, playing a World Cup final,
[45:36.760 -> 45:38.480] that's important, and now, you know,
[45:38.480 -> 45:40.360] the idea about doing the washing up would have been like,
[45:40.360 -> 45:41.720] don't you dare, and now I'm like,
[45:41.720 -> 45:42.560] I love doing the washing up,
[45:42.560 -> 45:44.280] and he couldn't believe it, it's like, that's rubbish.
[45:44.280 -> 45:46.300] I said, well, what is it you love about?
[45:46.300 -> 45:49.760] Define being a triathlete to me.
[45:49.760 -> 45:51.440] And he was saying about doing the run
[45:51.440 -> 45:52.980] and then the swim and then the cycle, whatever.
[45:52.980 -> 45:54.860] I said, okay, right now, break that down for me.
[45:54.860 -> 45:55.700] What are you doing?
[45:55.700 -> 45:58.600] Well, I'm moving my body to get to a goal.
[45:58.600 -> 45:59.440] I said, right, what are you doing
[45:59.440 -> 46:01.260] when you're doing the washing up?
[46:01.260 -> 46:03.240] Moving my body to get to a goal.
[46:03.240 -> 46:04.740] So why is one good and one's bad?
[46:04.740 -> 46:05.600] Why do you?
[46:05.600 -> 46:07.280] Because of outside opinions and influences, I suppose.
[46:07.280 -> 46:08.320] Because of old ideas.
[46:08.320 -> 46:11.440] That I've decided that this is something I like doing
[46:11.440 -> 46:14.400] because I plug into this,
[46:14.400 -> 46:16.240] because this is what I enjoy doing.
[46:16.240 -> 46:19.600] So all those, it's a really tricky one,
[46:19.600 -> 46:21.280] and there's obviously going to be likes and dislikes,
[46:21.280 -> 46:23.440] but whether or not you fully engage
[46:23.440 -> 46:30.240] comes down to how you are on the inside. Does that make lifting a World Cup more important than doing the washing up?
[46:30.240 -> 46:31.240] No.
[46:31.240 -> 46:32.240] No.
[46:32.240 -> 46:33.240] That's my decision.
[46:33.240 -> 46:38.320] If I, if I choose to be a World Cup winner because I've lifted a World Cup, that's going
[46:38.320 -> 46:40.120] to be my next limit.
[46:40.120 -> 46:43.960] Because when I'm a World Cup winner or I'm a rugby player that won the World Cup, now
[46:43.960 -> 46:47.000] I'm a guy that's walking around being the rugby, the winter world.
[46:47.000 -> 46:49.280] Now what happens when England win it again?
[46:49.280 -> 46:53.760] I'm like, I'm a less important guy who won a World Cup just the same as other guys.
[46:53.760 -> 46:56.600] And now next time England are playing, I'm like, I hope they don't win it.
[46:56.600 -> 46:58.400] But I hope they do really well because I work the guys, but
[46:58.400 -> 46:59.120] I hope they don't win it.
[46:59.120 -> 47:00.880] It's like, no, it doesn't work that way.
[47:00.880 -> 47:07.800] If I'm a rugby player, when I finish playing rugby, I'm a less of a person. But if I'm a nobody, so this unveiling of the,
[47:07.800 -> 47:10.280] or this unraveling of these old ideas
[47:10.280 -> 47:12.080] to allow the choice for a new one,
[47:12.080 -> 47:15.480] just means I'm going back from a someone to a no one.
[47:15.480 -> 47:17.440] And when I'm nothing on the inside,
[47:17.440 -> 47:20.560] I can be anything on the outside, and everything.
[47:20.560 -> 47:23.920] When I'm a someone on the inside, I can only be.
[47:23.920 -> 47:24.760] That's the thing I'm saying.
[47:24.760 -> 47:25.500] So at this moment in time then, Johnny, who are you? and everything. When I'm a someone on the inside, I can only be. That's the thing I'm saying.
[47:25.500 -> 47:28.640] So at this moment in time then, Johnny, who are you?
[47:28.640 -> 47:31.400] That's the biggest question life has.
[47:31.400 -> 47:35.160] If I had an answer for that, that would be my next problem.
[47:35.160 -> 47:36.000] I have no idea.
[47:36.000 -> 47:38.480] I see myself as, and every situation,
[47:38.480 -> 47:40.280] as undecided potential.
[47:40.280 -> 47:42.440] Can I ask you a question then?
[47:42.440 -> 47:43.760] If we were running a parallel world,
[47:43.760 -> 47:49.560] this might be a difficult one to answer. I like the start to start already. I like the first word. Yeah. Yeah, but
[47:50.560 -> 47:52.560] If you were to have adopted
[47:53.280 -> 47:57.000] This way of thinking. Yeah halfway through your career
[47:58.040 -> 48:01.120] How do you think it would have been different to be honest?
[48:02.080 -> 48:04.080] for me that I still
[48:05.920 -> 48:07.460] Involve myself when I'm coaching with the guys now.
[48:07.460 -> 48:10.020] I constantly put myself in positions where I'd be like,
[48:10.020 -> 48:14.020] yeah, so, watch this, and I put myself on a pedestal
[48:14.020 -> 48:16.800] to be like, right, hold on, I've just been,
[48:16.800 -> 48:18.800] and I've got guys watching, and I'm telling them about this,
[48:18.800 -> 48:20.520] and now I'm gonna do it.
[48:20.520 -> 48:22.460] So I put myself through the same situation,
[48:22.460 -> 48:24.080] constantly testing that moment out.
[48:24.080 -> 48:25.480] We went to a fair
[48:26.400 -> 48:30.400] Some sort of park the other day. They had a little game thing. We had to shoot
[48:30.920 -> 48:32.920] basketballs through a hoop to win a prize
[48:33.380 -> 48:38.160] Now a little one was like, oh my god, look at those and my wife said Oh
[48:39.120 -> 48:43.680] Daddy plays basketball most nights outside in the driveway. He's been practicing for this. He'll get you one of those. I'm kind of like
[48:43.680 -> 48:45.360] This is brilliant.
[48:45.360 -> 48:49.260] Because I can sense that old part of me,
[48:49.260 -> 48:51.520] the tiny bits that I, you know, that are still,
[48:51.520 -> 48:53.040] cogs are still trying to turn in that direction.
[48:53.040 -> 48:54.960] They're going, oh, bloody hell,
[48:54.960 -> 48:56.840] I better start thinking about this.
[48:56.840 -> 48:59.480] And like, yeah, I just, I'm gonna need a bit of time.
[48:59.480 -> 49:00.320] I'm just gonna go and stand.
[49:00.320 -> 49:02.680] And I'm sort of going, and this part of me that's now
[49:02.680 -> 49:07.500] is saying, no, no, no, no. I'm going to sit here and just, I'm going to absorb this.
[49:08.020 -> 49:10.380] And I'm saying, because, because it was busy.
[49:10.380 -> 49:12.660] So we said, we'll go over there to that play park and
[49:12.660 -> 49:13.700] then we'll come back and do it.
[49:13.940 -> 49:15.260] And so what would have happened?
[49:15.720 -> 49:16.380] Start careers.
[49:16.380 -> 49:17.780] I'd have gone over or middle of career.
[49:17.780 -> 49:20.700] I'd have gone over to that play park and I'd have been absent.
[49:21.460 -> 49:25.840] I'd have been completely absent walking around, being like, seeing what's going on,
[49:25.840 -> 49:28.160] but being not there at all, being lost in thought,
[49:28.160 -> 49:29.640] like you're talking about with that.
[49:29.640 -> 49:33.840] Because I've decided that there's consequences
[49:33.840 -> 49:36.780] to what's about to happen that I can't respond to,
[49:36.780 -> 49:38.560] I can't deal with.
[49:38.560 -> 49:40.520] Now, everything in my life has told me
[49:40.520 -> 49:43.760] that everything that happens to me in the now,
[49:43.760 -> 49:45.400] I'm perfectly equipped for. Everything that happens to me in the now, I'm perfectly equipped for.
[49:45.400 -> 49:47.600] Everything that happens to me in my mind,
[49:47.600 -> 49:50.480] I'm ill-equipped for, and it scares the hell out of me.
[49:50.480 -> 49:53.440] So I choose now rather than my mind.
[49:53.440 -> 49:55.600] So I look at the play button, I'm like,
[49:55.600 -> 49:56.960] I'm looking, feeling like, this is fun,
[49:56.960 -> 49:58.620] I'm going to get involved.
[49:58.620 -> 50:03.000] And soon enough, what I find is that by moving on,
[50:03.000 -> 50:05.000] you make sense of everything that's happened.
[50:05.000 -> 50:07.120] What most people, and what I did forever,
[50:07.120 -> 50:08.840] is you try to make sense of what's happened
[50:08.840 -> 50:10.240] so you can move on.
[50:10.240 -> 50:11.560] What I did was choose,
[50:11.560 -> 50:14.840] I just want to love this moment as all of me.
[50:14.840 -> 50:17.480] And soon enough, I spoke to my brother
[50:17.480 -> 50:20.800] because we were looking for a shop in the park,
[50:20.800 -> 50:22.160] and we were looking for something,
[50:22.160 -> 50:23.000] and I said, where's that shop?
[50:23.000 -> 50:24.440] And he's like, and I said, oh, by the way,
[50:24.440 -> 50:26.080] I'm just about to do this basketball thing.
[50:26.080 -> 50:28.280] Cause he had to go to the couple of weeks before
[50:28.280 -> 50:30.160] and I was like, any tips for me?
[50:30.160 -> 50:32.000] And I can tell the part of me is like, I'm loving it.
[50:32.000 -> 50:33.360] I'm like, they're like, and he's telling me this.
[50:33.360 -> 50:34.180] He's like, why?
[50:34.180 -> 50:35.940] He said, the ring is like bent this way.
[50:35.940 -> 50:37.800] So he said, you need to put some arc on it.
[50:37.800 -> 50:39.560] So it drops in, don't go flat.
[50:39.560 -> 50:40.560] And I'm like, yeah, I'm cool.
[50:40.560 -> 50:42.640] But I'm not like, oh, but what if I miss?
[50:42.640 -> 50:45.240] I'm sat there and I'm going, I'm excited.
[50:45.240 -> 50:48.600] Now, the consequence for me is huge, or potentially huge,
[50:48.600 -> 50:51.040] because I don't want to, you know, my old values of can't
[50:51.040 -> 50:52.980] let anyone down and wasted opportunity,
[50:52.980 -> 50:55.140] I'll never be able to get over this, even though it's
[50:55.140 -> 50:55.640] a tiny thing.
[50:55.640 -> 50:59.000] But it doesn't matter, because it's exploring it,
[50:59.000 -> 51:00.360] not trying to control it.
[51:00.360 -> 51:03.800] So now we head back over, and it's now much emptier.
[51:03.800 -> 51:06.000] I'm sort of like, yeah, walk over.
[51:06.000 -> 51:09.440] And there's suddenly, I'm looking forward.
[51:09.440 -> 51:11.180] Now, the whole thing about when you mentioned
[51:11.180 -> 51:13.180] about some of these understandings is that
[51:13.180 -> 51:16.480] when I've returned myself to more unknown,
[51:16.480 -> 51:19.280] I get a different relationship with the unknown,
[51:19.280 -> 51:20.120] if that makes sense.
[51:20.120 -> 51:21.860] So the unknown doesn't terrify me like it used to.
[51:21.860 -> 51:25.260] The uncontrollables, it becomes part of me because now I'm unknown. So I find myself connected to the unknown doesn't terrify me like it used to. The uncontrollables, it becomes part of me
[51:25.260 -> 51:26.680] because now I'm unknown.
[51:26.680 -> 51:28.720] So I find myself connected to the unknown.
[51:28.720 -> 51:30.920] So I'm walking over there and I'm excited by the unknown.
[51:30.920 -> 51:33.120] It's another definition of confidence for me.
[51:33.120 -> 51:35.780] Not self-belief, just excitement for the unknown.
[51:35.780 -> 51:37.360] It's a different version of confidence.
[51:37.360 -> 51:40.280] So I'm walking over and I'm excited about what's happening.
[51:40.280 -> 51:43.160] I'm excited that I don't know what the ball's going to do.
[51:43.160 -> 51:46.160] I'm looking at the balls the guy's given me and there's no grip on them whatsoever.
[51:46.320 -> 51:48.840] And I'm excited that I've never seen this make of basketball in my life.
[51:49.200 -> 51:49.760] And I'm excited.
[51:49.760 -> 51:53.680] They've got ridiculous colors and I'm looking at thinking, and I'm excited about the
[51:53.680 -> 51:55.200] interaction I'm having with the guy beforehand.
[51:55.200 -> 51:58.120] We're having a bit of, yeah, a bit of chat about all this, this, this.
[51:58.400 -> 52:00.640] And I'm excited about looking around and being like, Oh, all the things that.
[52:01.280 -> 52:06.320] You know, my child could choose from if I get it, All the things we never see, by the way, as adults.
[52:06.320 -> 52:07.120] Yes.
[52:07.120 -> 52:07.620] Isn't it?
[52:07.620 -> 52:08.720] You just go, oh yeah, I'll...
[52:08.720 -> 52:09.220] Yeah.
[52:09.220 -> 52:10.640] There's a childlike state to it.
[52:10.640 -> 52:14.800] So I'm looking, and the technique, as anything with kicking or anything,
[52:14.800 -> 52:18.480] you mentioned this about the work ethic of suffering, stress, and sacrifice,
[52:18.480 -> 52:20.760] and 10,000 hours and all that.
[52:20.760 -> 52:21.260] It's not.
[52:21.260 -> 52:22.600] It's about feel.
[52:22.600 -> 52:25.100] It's about a deeper, intuitive understanding
[52:25.100 -> 52:27.260] and connection of the body
[52:29.260 -> 52:31.800] and a oneness with what it is you're trying to achieve
[52:31.800 -> 52:33.580] so that the message through the body
[52:33.580 -> 52:38.020] is felt clearly in the ball and in the goal.
[52:38.020 -> 52:40.720] So opening up that feel and intuition
[52:40.720 -> 52:46.240] is done through practice, but is destroyed by over practice. Because that's the mind idea.
[52:46.240 -> 52:50.120] So actually, you explore life in order to find that
[52:50.120 -> 52:52.640] intuition, you don't explore rugby hoping you'll find life.
[52:52.640 -> 52:55.320] You explore life and you'll find skill.
[52:55.320 -> 52:57.040] So I'm walking and I'm picking up the ball and I'm like,
[52:57.040 -> 52:58.180] I love the way this feels.
[52:58.180 -> 53:00.020] In the hand, I'm kind of like giving it the old,
[53:00.020 -> 53:02.040] like the old golfer does his practice things,
[53:02.040 -> 53:02.880] I'm like, there it is.
[53:02.880 -> 53:07.600] And so I've got the human frame, and the first one, I'm kind of like, and I can feel, yeah, feel not.
[53:08.320 -> 53:12.640] I'm just, I'm like sharing, I can feel it's a bit index finger overweight.
[53:12.640 -> 53:15.400] So I'm slightly left and it's off the edge of the ring and I'm kind of like, okay,
[53:15.600 -> 53:16.120] next one.
[53:16.120 -> 53:19.400] I'm like, that's clean, but straight off the back of the ring, straight back at me.
[53:20.000 -> 53:22.280] And that no sense of shit is my last one.
[53:22.280 -> 53:24.480] It's just next, you know, it's a brand new journey.
[53:25.320 -> 53:27.920] One shot, one goal. There's no, it's my last. one. It's just next, you know, it's a brand new journey One shot one goal. There's no it's my last
[53:28.240 -> 53:32.380] No, it's just pick it up and it actually as soon as I threw it the guy in the store goes
[53:32.380 -> 53:34.200] So that's in I was like cheese
[53:34.200 -> 53:38.880] He's short and it hit the back hit the front hit the back moved out when I'm like, oh, I just dropped straight in
[53:39.360 -> 53:41.360] now palm is kind of
[53:41.600 -> 53:47.000] Going I would have been survival mid-career. I'd have looked at that and gone, thank God for that.
[53:47.000 -> 53:50.500] As it is, I'm kind of like, yes!
[53:50.500 -> 53:52.560] I'm like, wow, I did it!
[53:52.560 -> 53:53.740] But that doesn't last.
[53:53.740 -> 53:55.460] I'm not walking around being like,
[53:55.460 -> 53:56.980] look at me, I'm the guy that got the thing.
[53:56.980 -> 53:59.920] I'm now like, should we go find that shop?
[53:59.920 -> 54:01.220] Because I'm interested in what I'm getting next.
[54:01.220 -> 54:02.580] Now, this is what I mean is that
[54:02.580 -> 54:05.120] you never live a consequence in the now.
[54:05.120 -> 54:07.240] So if you stay in the now, there's no consequence.
[54:07.240 -> 54:09.120] But everything you're trying to build,
[54:09.120 -> 54:12.200] it's important to have goals in everything.
[54:12.200 -> 54:14.680] So there's a difference between what you're trying to build
[54:14.680 -> 54:16.360] and who you are, if you separate the two.
[54:16.360 -> 54:17.920] Who you are can remain,
[54:17.920 -> 54:21.600] so the experience of sport is just in the zone,
[54:21.600 -> 54:23.560] in the now, total engagement.
[54:23.560 -> 54:25.960] But the journey might be material.
[54:25.960 -> 54:26.800] You build a house.
[54:26.800 -> 54:28.840] So you put that thing in the,
[54:28.840 -> 54:30.780] you put your beef in the oven or whatever,
[54:30.780 -> 54:33.100] but right now it's a full engagement.
[54:33.100 -> 54:34.260] But there's a knowing that,
[54:34.260 -> 54:36.220] okay, I need to be away by this time.
[54:36.220 -> 54:38.260] So there's a clarity of being like, I'm fully engaged.
[54:38.260 -> 54:39.900] Now I'm fully engaged in checking my watch,
[54:39.900 -> 54:41.100] and I'm fully engaged in this.
[54:41.100 -> 54:44.260] Not, I'm half absent here, and I'm half absent here,
[54:44.260 -> 54:45.640] and I'm half absent here, and I go home here and I'm half absent here and I go home
[54:45.640 -> 54:50.220] I'm half absent thinking. Oh god. Did I do a good interview? Should I've done that you can still have
[54:51.100 -> 54:54.760] Desires and wants and outside influences and things going on in your life
[54:54.760 -> 54:57.960] And that's it's still okay to be like, yeah, I want to be really successful
[54:57.960 -> 55:00.760] But that's the point of that's the point of living that
[55:01.480 -> 55:08.400] Dominate you but that that for me the point of living is to explore that creative capacity,
[55:08.400 -> 55:13.060] the inherent role we have as a creative force on this planet.
[55:13.060 -> 55:14.280] And that's the freedom of choice
[55:14.280 -> 55:16.140] that comes with having self-awareness,
[55:16.140 -> 55:18.880] is that we have an ability to connect
[55:18.880 -> 55:22.180] to that role as a creator in this.
[55:22.180 -> 55:25.420] So creating is the goals, but what I've found
[55:25.420 -> 55:29.160] was that when I sort of started to dissolve
[55:29.160 -> 55:32.060] a bit of that self-importance, I started to include
[55:32.060 -> 55:36.220] other people in my goals, and I started to include
[55:37.600 -> 55:42.040] much more of my being in my goals, in my performance.
[55:42.040 -> 55:43.820] And as a result, things tended to work out.
[55:43.820 -> 55:47.380] So my goals, in my performance. And as a result, things tended to work out. So my goals were less selfish objectives
[55:47.380 -> 55:49.740] and more collective visions
[55:49.740 -> 55:51.480] because they involved the best of everyone
[55:51.480 -> 55:54.300] because they were more still hugely directed
[55:54.300 -> 55:57.220] but open in their kind of inclusive.
[55:57.220 -> 55:58.940] So would you still say I want,
[55:58.940 -> 56:00.620] you have a drinks brand, yeah?
[56:00.620 -> 56:01.460] Yeah.
[56:01.460 -> 56:02.400] Would you still say,
[56:02.400 -> 56:06.160] I want my drinks brand to be the number one drinks brand in the world?
[56:06.160 -> 56:13.260] Or do you say I want to really enjoy the journey of creating the greatest drink in my opinion?
[56:13.260 -> 56:19.160] And then we'll see where it goes. What's what's the process for achievement with the mindset you have?
[56:19.160 -> 56:24.440] but the the concept at the beginning throughout and it will be for areas is to
[56:24.660 -> 56:25.140] Like you were talking a little bit was a choice certainly not in any way down the same level as Victor Frankl The concept at the beginning, throughout, and it will be forever, is to,
[56:25.140 -> 56:25.980] like you were talking a little bit,
[56:25.980 -> 56:27.640] was a choice, certainly not in any way,
[56:27.640 -> 56:29.220] not on the same level as Victor Frankl,
[56:29.220 -> 56:31.120] which is just ridiculous,
[56:31.120 -> 56:32.500] but it's a thing of being,
[56:32.500 -> 56:35.500] trying to provide some kind of transformational service
[56:35.500 -> 56:38.060] or opportunity towards health,
[56:38.060 -> 56:40.500] towards my passion, which is mental and physical health,
[56:40.500 -> 56:42.840] and emotional well-being.
[56:42.840 -> 56:46.000] So on that, it was like, this is what I'm trying to affect.
[56:46.000 -> 56:50.000] Now, ideally, if it's successful from a commercial standpoint,
[56:50.000 -> 56:54.000] we can reinvest and grow it and increase that impact.
[56:54.000 -> 57:00.000] But that impact is directly related to my exploration of my passion.
[57:00.000 -> 57:04.000] Because I'm sort of more involved in the, less in the self-importance
[57:04.000 -> 57:05.040] and more in the kind of, I'm sort of more involved in the, less in the self-importance and more in the kind of
[57:05.040 -> 57:08.320] I'm exploring those boundaries and trying to transcend them,
[57:08.320 -> 57:10.900] or working to sort of transcend them,
[57:10.900 -> 57:14.600] I find that my passion now involves other people.
[57:14.600 -> 57:16.600] So whereas I started my career saying
[57:16.600 -> 57:17.800] I want to be the best in the world,
[57:17.800 -> 57:20.280] now if you ask me who the best in the world is right now,
[57:20.280 -> 57:22.320] I'd be like, I can't be bothered talking about that.
[57:22.320 -> 57:26.240] I mean, best in the world, how on earth do you define, how do you
[57:26.240 -> 57:27.580] compare two people?
[57:27.780 -> 57:30.460] You just, unless you make an assumption that let's say that
[57:30.460 -> 57:32.780] they all started on exactly the same place and they're exactly
[57:32.780 -> 57:34.220] the same being now we can do it.
[57:34.220 -> 57:34.420] Yeah.
[57:34.540 -> 57:36.620] Oh, 20 years ago, would you have discussed that at great length?
[57:36.620 -> 57:37.540] Who's the best in the world?
[57:37.540 -> 57:38.460] And where do I sit in that?
[57:38.460 -> 57:39.500] Well, I would have done it with myself.
[57:39.900 -> 57:41.820] I'd have been like, I think, you know, the papers are saying that
[57:41.820 -> 57:42.920] now, so I've pretty much done it.
[57:43.260 -> 57:43.460] Yeah.
[57:43.460 -> 57:45.080] And the fact that people then say to me now,
[57:45.080 -> 57:48.920] what about yourself and Carter and these guys?
[57:50.560 -> 57:55.260] I'm like, you've just left off about 30 other people
[57:55.260 -> 57:56.380] to name just three.
[57:56.380 -> 57:58.240] It's like, you don't get it.
[57:58.240 -> 58:00.260] There's guys that you'd have never heard of
[58:00.260 -> 58:02.800] who I've played alongside and gone, I mean, it's immense.
[58:02.800 -> 58:05.240] I would go to them straight away.
[58:05.240 -> 58:06.200] And does it matter anyway?
[58:06.640 -> 58:07.240] Of course it doesn't.
[58:08.000 -> 58:10.440] Which is the point of saying at the beginning, I want to be the best.
[58:10.480 -> 58:16.280] What it did was just that conclusion, that idea took over my intellect.
[58:16.560 -> 58:20.280] So my mind is now, every time I see something in the paper about so-and-so
[58:20.280 -> 58:22.920] who's had a good game, I'm like, Oh shit, I've got to read that, but I don't want to read it.
[58:22.920 -> 58:24.000] And now I'm stressed about that.
[58:24.000 -> 58:25.560] And then before the next game, I'm like, Oh, if he gets into the team, I'd better play well today, otherwise I won had a good game. I'm like, oh shit, I've got to read that, but I don't want to read it. And now I'm stressed about that. And then before the next game, I'm like,
[58:25.560 -> 58:27.540] oh, if he gets into the team, I better play well today,
[58:27.540 -> 58:28.680] otherwise I won't keep my game.
[58:28.680 -> 58:30.720] You're like, well, that one conclusion
[58:30.720 -> 58:32.580] is deciding how I think.
[58:32.580 -> 58:34.640] Now, what I said before is that that conclusion
[58:34.640 -> 58:36.840] is now adding to my pressure.
[58:36.840 -> 58:38.700] And now you say, right, so I'm going to change it.
[58:38.700 -> 58:40.200] I'm going to be the best I can be.
[58:40.200 -> 58:41.480] But I mentioned before about if you know
[58:41.480 -> 58:43.900] what your potential is, it's your next limit.
[58:43.900 -> 58:45.800] So how do I know what my best is?
[58:45.800 -> 58:47.040] It's like, well, I don't.
[58:47.040 -> 58:48.840] So now I've got to go one step further,
[58:48.840 -> 58:51.560] which is I want to be all I can be.
[58:51.560 -> 58:52.400] And if I'm going to do that,
[58:52.400 -> 58:53.840] I've got to stop looking at rugby.
[58:53.840 -> 58:56.120] I've got to stop looking at something bigger than rugby.
[58:56.120 -> 58:57.440] And that's the point of being like,
[58:57.440 -> 59:00.600] well, because within that, everything else exists.
[59:00.600 -> 59:01.920] But if you want to be the best rugby player,
[59:01.920 -> 59:03.400] what people might find is I did,
[59:03.400 -> 59:07.680] is I felt like I got there or whatever. and what it meant to the rest of my world
[59:07.680 -> 59:14.040] was I was deeply unhappy, hugely unsatisfied, I was treating people around me like God knows
[59:14.040 -> 59:21.320] what, I was physically stressed in all kinds of physical state, hence the 14 injuries in
[59:21.320 -> 59:25.120] a row, and even when I got injured the first time, all I could think of was,
[59:25.120 -> 59:26.700] I've got to get back to where I was.
[59:26.700 -> 59:30.780] Total expectation, stress, no room for beginning again,
[59:30.780 -> 59:33.120] no freedom, no liberation, no healing.
[59:33.120 -> 59:34.620] And so I end up with another injury.
[59:34.620 -> 59:35.540] Oh, it's even worse now.
[59:35.540 -> 59:36.640] Each game's a big comeback,
[59:36.640 -> 59:37.480] and this is going to be the one.
[59:37.480 -> 59:39.120] I've got to get back to where I was.
[59:39.120 -> 59:41.920] Trying to control, instead of explore what I could be,
[59:41.920 -> 59:43.720] I was trying to say, I've got to get back to where I was.
[59:43.720 -> 59:47.500] And so, when you say what was one of the biggest
[59:47.500 -> 59:49.440] moments of realization was that,
[59:49.440 -> 59:52.320] kind of like, Jesus, I got 14 messages
[59:52.320 -> 59:53.440] from the world over and over again,
[59:53.440 -> 59:55.140] be like, just be aware of that.
[59:55.140 -> 59:56.100] No, still not got it?
[59:56.100 -> 59:57.260] Just be aware of that.
[59:57.260 -> 59:58.760] No, no, I have another one.
[59:58.760 -> 59:59.920] And this one's your knee.
[59:59.920 -> 01:00:00.760] This is an interesting one,
[01:00:00.760 -> 01:00:02.400] because you'll do the same knee
[01:00:02.400 -> 01:00:04.460] 30 minutes after you've come back.
[01:00:04.460 -> 01:00:05.340] And this one's a good one.
[01:00:05.340 -> 01:00:08.240] We'll send you on the Lions tour, 2005,
[01:00:08.240 -> 01:00:11.020] when you're so stressed and all over the place
[01:00:11.020 -> 01:00:12.080] and trying to prove yourself,
[01:00:12.080 -> 01:00:13.280] and it's a team that doesn't work,
[01:00:13.280 -> 01:00:15.580] and now you've got absolutely hammered abroad,
[01:00:15.580 -> 01:00:16.700] and you're kind of thinking,
[01:00:16.700 -> 01:00:17.960] oh, you thought that would be the last time
[01:00:17.960 -> 01:00:18.800] you had an experience like that
[01:00:18.800 -> 01:00:21.320] after the tour of hell in 97, didn't you?
[01:00:21.320 -> 01:00:22.940] Here it is again.
[01:00:22.940 -> 01:00:23.780] No, not listening?
[01:00:23.780 -> 01:00:25.160] Okay, let's have another one.
[01:00:25.160 -> 01:00:26.240] Another year out.
[01:00:26.240 -> 01:00:27.120] And you're kind of like,
[01:00:27.120 -> 01:00:29.400] life involves physical, mental, emotional health
[01:00:29.400 -> 01:00:31.360] and wherever that goes after that.
[01:00:31.360 -> 01:00:33.840] And then start exploring what you can do with the world.
[01:00:33.840 -> 01:00:35.280] But if you try and explore what you can do with the world
[01:00:35.280 -> 01:00:36.560] without addressing those,
[01:00:36.560 -> 01:00:38.960] you end up working the two against each other
[01:00:38.960 -> 01:00:41.480] and it becomes a journey of smaller and smaller.
[01:00:42.360 -> 01:00:43.360] I love what you're saying.
[01:00:43.360 -> 01:00:45.520] I think it's really profound,
[01:00:45.520 -> 01:00:49.120] and I think anything that's profound
[01:00:49.120 -> 01:00:53.280] and forces you to think is well worth investigating.
[01:00:54.320 -> 01:00:56.000] And I think allied to that,
[01:00:56.000 -> 01:00:58.820] your credibility through your past life
[01:00:58.820 -> 01:01:01.240] gives you a platform to really make a difference
[01:01:01.240 -> 01:01:02.560] and shift the dial in this,
[01:01:02.560 -> 01:01:07.000] not just in sport, but in society in general.
[01:01:07.000 -> 01:01:09.700] But if we accept that the German philosopher,
[01:01:09.700 -> 01:01:12.700] Arthur Schopenhauer, spoke about three stages of change,
[01:01:12.700 -> 01:01:14.700] first people will laugh at you,
[01:01:14.700 -> 01:01:16.700] then they'll oppose you and tell you why it's ridiculous,
[01:01:16.700 -> 01:01:21.000] and then finally they'll come to accept it as common sense.
[01:01:21.000 -> 01:01:23.500] Where do you think you are on that journey
[01:01:23.500 -> 01:01:26.960] to get other people to to engage with this this?
[01:01:27.480 -> 01:01:34.160] Alternative way of thinking. Um, I think it's about where I am. I think it's I think it's a society
[01:01:34.160 -> 01:01:37.440] Yeah, I think it's a state of society in general and that you mentioned
[01:01:37.440 -> 01:01:40.960] I think at the very beginning that there's been thousands of people have walked this planet
[01:01:41.520 -> 01:01:44.960] millions billions trillions of God knows how many and
[01:01:41.800 -> 01:01:45.900] of people have walked this planet, millions, billions, trillions of God knows how many,
[01:01:45.900 -> 01:01:48.500] and everyone has had the same aim of,
[01:01:48.500 -> 01:01:50.080] or so many of them have had the same aim
[01:01:50.080 -> 01:01:51.700] of transforming the world into something,
[01:01:51.700 -> 01:01:53.600] and they've all come with their beliefs
[01:01:53.600 -> 01:01:54.760] of good and bad and right and wrong,
[01:01:54.760 -> 01:01:56.360] and this is where we are.
[01:01:56.360 -> 01:01:58.280] And it's not to say that they've been wrong at all,
[01:01:58.280 -> 01:02:01.960] it's just to be the fact that it's time to keep,
[01:02:01.960 -> 01:02:03.040] but no more than ever now,
[01:02:03.040 -> 01:02:05.600] to keep looking back inside and questioning
[01:02:05.600 -> 01:02:07.500] and looking at yourself,
[01:02:07.500 -> 01:02:11.040] because it's so easy to go to the outside
[01:02:11.040 -> 01:02:12.780] and say this is why,
[01:02:12.780 -> 01:02:16.520] but as long as, for me, for example, for my situation,
[01:02:16.520 -> 01:02:18.720] if I need certain things to be a certain way,
[01:02:18.720 -> 01:02:20.320] I'm held hostage by them,
[01:02:20.320 -> 01:02:23.000] and that means that whoever's in that situation,
[01:02:23.000 -> 01:02:24.500] I will then say blame them for being like,
[01:02:24.500 -> 01:02:27.040] oh, you're controlling me in that respect,
[01:02:27.040 -> 01:02:29.440] whatever it has been with regard to,
[01:02:29.440 -> 01:02:30.880] it could have been around rugby,
[01:02:30.880 -> 01:02:32.720] but mostly it was myself to myself.
[01:02:32.720 -> 01:02:33.880] So you mentioned those three stages,
[01:02:33.880 -> 01:02:35.000] I would have been like,
[01:02:35.000 -> 01:02:36.360] I would have had those three stages,
[01:02:36.360 -> 01:02:38.240] if I went back to my 22-year-old self now
[01:02:38.240 -> 01:02:41.080] and sort of gave him this, I'd get laughed at, definitely.
[01:02:41.080 -> 01:02:43.880] Yeah, and then probably a bit later on,
[01:02:43.880 -> 01:02:46.140] 24-ish after the World Cup
[01:02:46.140 -> 01:02:50.620] I would have such a strong idea that I'd come back at me. Definitely. I'll be saying I hear a joke
[01:02:50.620 -> 01:02:55.120] Yeah, that's weakness. That's just giving in and all that kind of thing and then
[01:02:55.940 -> 01:02:57.940] 28 I'll be like, please
[01:02:58.140 -> 01:03:01.800] Please let me have this because that was yeah, that was one of my major
[01:03:02.320 -> 01:03:06.000] Mental health sort of points and it's really a case of saying that, for me anyway,
[01:03:06.000 -> 01:03:06.840] there's no right or wrong.
[01:03:06.840 -> 01:03:09.160] Everyone is where they're supposed to be
[01:03:09.160 -> 01:03:10.480] in terms of that stage.
[01:03:10.480 -> 01:03:12.520] And to think that I have the answer, I don't.
[01:03:12.520 -> 01:03:16.400] I'm just exploring my own perspective and my own thing
[01:03:16.400 -> 01:03:20.520] and trying to share anything that might allow others
[01:03:20.520 -> 01:03:21.440] to explore theirs.
[01:03:21.440 -> 01:03:24.360] But to think that I know anything about anyone else
[01:03:24.360 -> 01:03:26.220] or what's right and wrong,
[01:03:26.220 -> 01:03:27.700] I've thought I have in the past,
[01:03:27.700 -> 01:03:29.300] and I've looked at what I've done,
[01:03:29.300 -> 01:03:31.220] and I've looked at the environments I've created.
[01:03:31.220 -> 01:03:34.320] I wrote a book in 2004 just after the World Cup.
[01:03:34.320 -> 01:03:35.820] I would be surprised if there wasn't
[01:03:35.820 -> 01:03:39.220] sort of a spike in mental health cases after I wrote it,
[01:03:39.220 -> 01:03:41.880] just because it was so dogmatic.
[01:03:42.880 -> 01:03:44.320] You were mentioning about,
[01:03:44.320 -> 01:03:46.080] I was mentioning about suffering, stressing,
[01:03:46.080 -> 01:03:47.840] that's all the message is.
[01:03:47.840 -> 01:03:50.040] To all these kids with passion for rap,
[01:03:50.040 -> 01:03:52.840] I pretty much sort of eradicated the idea
[01:03:52.840 -> 01:03:54.440] that passion had anything to do with performance
[01:03:54.440 -> 01:03:56.400] and just told them it was all about
[01:03:56.400 -> 01:03:57.760] this and this and this and this and this.
[01:03:57.760 -> 01:03:59.920] And some people came back at the time were like,
[01:03:59.920 -> 01:04:00.760] yeah, I really love this.
[01:04:00.760 -> 01:04:01.820] I'm sort of looking back now thinking,
[01:04:01.820 -> 01:04:02.660] I hope they weren't.
[01:04:02.660 -> 01:04:04.380] What's your relationship like with Regret?
[01:04:04.380 -> 01:04:05.460] Do you have that?
[01:04:05.460 -> 01:04:06.300] No.
[01:04:06.300 -> 01:04:07.120] For that book, no?
[01:04:07.120 -> 01:04:08.860] No, no, no, because of the same reason,
[01:04:08.860 -> 01:04:12.580] is that if I put myself back into that same body,
[01:04:12.580 -> 01:04:14.620] and just said, right, one condition,
[01:04:14.620 -> 01:04:17.580] you have to see yourself the way you saw yourself then,
[01:04:17.580 -> 01:04:18.420] it's done.
[01:04:18.420 -> 01:04:19.240] Yeah.
[01:04:19.240 -> 01:04:20.320] I would see things the way I saw them.
[01:04:20.320 -> 01:04:21.160] You'd do it again.
[01:04:21.160 -> 01:04:22.100] I would feel the way I feel.
[01:04:22.100 -> 01:04:22.940] I'd do what I did.
[01:04:22.940 -> 01:04:23.960] I'd create what I created.
[01:04:23.960 -> 01:04:25.360] And therefore,
[01:04:25.360 -> 01:04:27.840] there's nothing to do but accept it,
[01:04:27.840 -> 01:04:30.540] but also to realize by accepting it,
[01:04:30.540 -> 01:04:33.480] I am now no longer attached to it,
[01:04:33.480 -> 01:04:36.360] I'm not the result of it, and if I'm not the result of it,
[01:04:36.360 -> 01:04:38.560] how can I be regretful?
[01:04:38.560 -> 01:04:39.880] It's a bit like, I said this to someone
[01:04:39.880 -> 01:04:44.120] about watching a sort of post-match video analysis,
[01:04:44.120 -> 01:04:46.660] who used to sit in the meeting room like this,
[01:04:46.660 -> 01:04:48.600] and everyone's looking over the mistakes they've made
[01:04:48.600 -> 01:04:50.560] and going, shh, it's coming up on the video in an hour.
[01:04:50.560 -> 01:04:52.140] Oh my God, this is my one, this is my one.
[01:04:52.140 -> 01:04:54.300] When I throw the interception or I drop the ball
[01:04:54.300 -> 01:04:56.100] or I miss that tackle, the coach is going to kill me.
[01:04:56.100 -> 01:04:57.540] Oh my God, and what are the other guys thinking?
[01:04:57.540 -> 01:05:00.080] Oh no, this is so embarrassing, whatever.
[01:05:00.080 -> 01:05:02.380] But the reason that it's there is because
[01:05:02.380 -> 01:05:05.520] everyone's attached to who they were then
[01:05:05.520 -> 01:05:09.880] as part of who they are now at the deepest level.
[01:05:09.880 -> 01:05:13.800] And therefore, you have to take on the feelings.
[01:05:14.640 -> 01:05:16.480] You have to feel humiliated.
[01:05:16.480 -> 01:05:18.120] You can't see it objectively.
[01:05:18.120 -> 01:05:20.200] But when you have that deep acceptance of,
[01:05:20.200 -> 01:05:22.680] okay, that was me of then who did that,
[01:05:22.680 -> 01:05:23.520] and that me of then,
[01:05:23.520 -> 01:05:24.880] because that's how they saw themselves,
[01:05:24.880 -> 01:05:27.720] what I can say is, they were living,
[01:05:27.720 -> 01:05:28.860] they were giving it their all.
[01:05:28.860 -> 01:05:31.160] That's what you can say about how we live in every moment.
[01:05:31.160 -> 01:05:32.140] According to how you see yourselves,
[01:05:32.140 -> 01:05:33.460] you're giving it your all.
[01:05:33.460 -> 01:05:34.300] So I can look at that and say,
[01:05:34.300 -> 01:05:36.620] that was that version of me giving its all.
[01:05:36.620 -> 01:05:37.560] It's got nothing to do with how
[01:05:37.560 -> 01:05:39.360] this version of me wants to be.
[01:05:39.360 -> 01:05:41.460] And so therefore, I can look at it objectively.
[01:05:41.460 -> 01:05:44.840] So I'm looking at it as if it was you on the video doing it.
[01:05:44.840 -> 01:05:46.540] But I'm watching me, and I'm watching me drop a pass, and I'm thinking, okay, yeah, I probably would at it objectively. So I'm looking at it as if it was you on the video doing it. But I'm watching me and I'm watching me drop a pass
[01:05:46.540 -> 01:05:47.520] and I'm thinking, okay, yeah,
[01:05:47.520 -> 01:05:49.680] I probably would have done that.
[01:05:49.680 -> 01:05:50.720] And someone tries to say, oh, sorry,
[01:05:50.720 -> 01:05:51.560] I'm lucky about that.
[01:05:51.560 -> 01:05:54.520] I'm like, what do you mean?
[01:05:54.520 -> 01:05:55.480] I'm fresh, I'm brand new.
[01:05:55.480 -> 01:05:57.320] So what's left of the Johnny Wilkinson
[01:05:57.320 -> 01:05:58.800] that won the World Cup?
[01:05:58.800 -> 01:06:00.600] Memory, the same memories,
[01:06:00.600 -> 01:06:03.300] but just not in a given order.
[01:06:03.300 -> 01:06:04.600] I've got the beautiful memories,
[01:06:04.600 -> 01:06:07.020] but I can see them how I want to see them.
[01:06:07.020 -> 01:06:10.140] But if you went back to me at 25 and said,
[01:06:10.140 -> 01:06:11.180] what's left of your memories now?
[01:06:11.180 -> 01:06:12.160] I'd be like, this is my memories,
[01:06:12.160 -> 01:06:14.060] that's my path of life, that's how it is.
[01:06:14.060 -> 01:06:15.580] Whereas now I can draw up any memory,
[01:06:15.580 -> 01:06:18.300] and it represents something completely different
[01:06:18.300 -> 01:06:20.380] according to how I need it now.
[01:06:20.380 -> 01:06:23.400] So if we were gonna talk about a moment of,
[01:06:23.400 -> 01:06:25.200] you know, like the kick in the drop go
[01:06:25.200 -> 01:06:27.500] and that moment of when it needs to happen,
[01:06:27.500 -> 01:06:29.080] how do you perform a technique?
[01:06:29.080 -> 01:06:30.960] Now when I was 25 and I didn't have control of that,
[01:06:30.960 -> 01:06:33.200] I'd just be like, well, I just put the ball here
[01:06:33.200 -> 01:06:34.320] and kicked it.
[01:06:34.320 -> 01:06:36.980] Now I was 28, I look at it slightly differently,
[01:06:36.980 -> 01:06:38.780] but now I look at it, I can explore it again
[01:06:38.780 -> 01:06:40.260] as if it's brand new.
[01:06:40.260 -> 01:06:41.600] And I get new insights about it.
[01:06:41.600 -> 01:06:43.700] Now I'm just looking at it thinking,
[01:06:43.700 -> 01:06:44.640] do you know what's amazing?
[01:06:44.640 -> 01:06:46.480] Because of this and I think because of this.
[01:06:46.480 -> 01:06:49.160] So my own memory has become an exploration for me.
[01:06:49.160 -> 01:06:50.400] Rather than something that's telling me
[01:06:50.400 -> 01:06:51.840] how I need to live my life,
[01:06:51.840 -> 01:06:52.920] it's become part of my-
[01:06:52.920 -> 01:06:54.320] Are you able now to enjoy things
[01:06:54.320 -> 01:06:56.560] that at the time were painful?
[01:06:56.560 -> 01:06:57.400] As in?
[01:06:57.400 -> 01:06:59.120] Are you able to watch a period in your career
[01:06:59.120 -> 01:07:01.120] where you knew you were struggling with mental health
[01:07:01.120 -> 01:07:02.360] and you weren't happy?
[01:07:02.360 -> 01:07:03.360] I'm fascinated by it.
[01:07:03.360 -> 01:07:05.160] And you can now watch that and you can...
[01:07:05.160 -> 01:07:06.840] Fascinated by it, yeah.
[01:07:06.840 -> 01:07:09.440] There's games where I was out in that field
[01:07:09.440 -> 01:07:13.240] and I was doing well just to leave the hotel room
[01:07:13.240 -> 01:07:15.880] because of the mental state I was in.
[01:07:15.880 -> 01:07:19.160] There was games there where I phoned up family
[01:07:19.160 -> 01:07:22.520] and I phoned up Blackie, a big part of my life
[01:07:22.520 -> 01:07:26.420] and I was trying to find reasons to not play.
[01:07:27.800 -> 01:07:30.560] I was trying to think about, you know,
[01:07:30.560 -> 01:07:32.520] whether I mentioned injury or whether it's okay
[01:07:32.520 -> 01:07:35.360] to say that mentally I'm just, I'm gone.
[01:07:35.360 -> 01:07:37.200] You know, and this is me after two World Cups,
[01:07:37.200 -> 01:07:39.180] 2003 and seven, where we've got to the final
[01:07:39.180 -> 01:07:40.940] and won them or whatever.
[01:07:40.940 -> 01:07:46.000] I am, I'm doing well just to leave the hotel room.
[01:07:47.460 -> 01:07:49.460] And I look at it and I'm fascinated by it, not because of like, this is a great story
[01:07:49.460 -> 01:07:51.120] to tell people that paint me in a certain light.
[01:07:51.120 -> 01:07:52.660] It's not, it's because I'm looking at it being like,
[01:07:52.660 -> 01:07:56.820] I'm fascinated by how we can see things certain ways
[01:07:58.700 -> 01:07:59.820] and how we can see them differently
[01:07:59.820 -> 01:08:01.660] and how that choice, as you mentioned, is there.
[01:08:01.660 -> 01:08:05.840] And I'm fascinated by becoming responsible for that choice.
[01:08:05.840 -> 01:08:08.240] And therefore, I love exploring those moments.
[01:08:08.240 -> 01:08:09.080] And I look back at them now,
[01:08:09.080 -> 01:08:11.300] and I look at everything fondly,
[01:08:11.300 -> 01:08:14.860] to know that, like I said, at that time,
[01:08:14.860 -> 01:08:17.240] I was doing my best.
[01:08:17.240 -> 01:08:18.080] I was giving my all,
[01:08:18.080 -> 01:08:19.880] because it's impossible not to in life.
[01:08:19.880 -> 01:08:23.120] Whenever I decide to be lazy and sit down,
[01:08:23.120 -> 01:08:25.540] and just apparently lazy, and sit down and do this,
[01:08:25.540 -> 01:08:28.320] it's the best I can do because it's how I see myself
[01:08:28.320 -> 01:08:30.140] will govern that decision.
[01:08:30.140 -> 01:08:33.120] But that's also not just the past, that's now.
[01:08:33.120 -> 01:08:34.060] It's happening now.
[01:08:34.060 -> 01:08:36.400] What I'm doing now is I know it's the best I can do.
[01:08:36.400 -> 01:08:37.960] And I might go and say after this,
[01:08:37.960 -> 01:08:39.080] oh yeah, if you'd asked me that again,
[01:08:39.080 -> 01:08:40.040] I might have said this.
[01:08:40.040 -> 01:08:41.560] It's irrelevant.
[01:08:41.560 -> 01:08:44.220] Because that's the best that me can do.
[01:08:44.220 -> 01:08:45.000] But this is the you now.
[01:08:45.000 -> 01:08:48.720] This is the me now, so just fully embrace this me of now.
[01:08:48.720 -> 01:08:50.720] Johnny, that description of struggling
[01:08:50.720 -> 01:08:53.400] to leave your hotel room, I find it quite moving
[01:08:53.400 -> 01:08:56.160] because the pain that you're obviously in
[01:08:56.160 -> 01:08:58.480] and the struggle that you're facing
[01:08:58.480 -> 01:09:01.120] is quite profoundly sad.
[01:09:01.120 -> 01:09:04.480] If I was working as a coach or working within an environment,
[01:09:04.480 -> 01:09:05.240] whether this is the
[01:09:05.240 -> 01:09:10.600] office, whether it's a sports team, whether it's in a classroom, what sort of signs should
[01:09:10.600 -> 01:09:15.040] we be looking out for that somebody is engaged in that struggle? Are there any, is there
[01:09:15.040 -> 01:09:19.320] any common traits that is worth us exploring?
[01:09:19.320 -> 01:09:25.760] I think it's difficult because often people look at players and say that's just how and
[01:09:25.760 -> 01:09:30.360] they are just let me get on with it but I think the same the big question is are
[01:09:30.360 -> 01:09:35.000] you okay with feeling like this as an instability say you know and I think but
[01:09:35.000 -> 01:09:38.720] that can only come from a position of someone who's exploring because if a
[01:09:38.720 -> 01:09:42.760] coach is feeling a little bit the same way about the result needs to go a
[01:09:42.760 -> 01:09:47.880] certain way then there's no you, you can't transmit a certain message
[01:09:47.880 -> 01:09:49.460] and be the opposite of that message.
[01:09:49.460 -> 01:09:52.980] It becomes even more confusing and damaging.
[01:09:52.980 -> 01:09:55.760] But I think the question is, are you okay with it?
[01:09:55.760 -> 01:09:57.760] And exploring that with someone to be like,
[01:09:57.760 -> 01:10:00.100] is this how you want your life to be?
[01:10:00.100 -> 01:10:02.160] Because that's what you work with people on.
[01:10:02.160 -> 01:10:03.840] How do you want your life to be?
[01:10:03.840 -> 01:10:05.160] You start there, not with how do you want your life to turn out, you start with how. How do you want your life to be? You start there,
[01:10:05.160 -> 01:10:07.020] not with how do you want your life to turn out,
[01:10:07.020 -> 01:10:07.860] you start with how do you want
[01:10:07.860 -> 01:10:09.580] your experience of life to be?
[01:10:09.580 -> 01:10:11.120] And then you say, let's work on that.
[01:10:11.120 -> 01:10:11.960] And it always comes back to,
[01:10:11.960 -> 01:10:13.160] well, when you're at your very best,
[01:10:13.160 -> 01:10:14.000] tell me how you feel,
[01:10:14.000 -> 01:10:16.160] and it'll be the same answer
[01:10:16.160 -> 01:10:18.460] as how do you want your life to be.
[01:10:18.460 -> 01:10:20.180] I want to feel inspired,
[01:10:20.180 -> 01:10:21.160] I want to feel connected,
[01:10:21.160 -> 01:10:23.620] I want to feel fully engaged,
[01:10:23.620 -> 01:10:25.680] I want to feel effortless, I want to feel connected. I want to feel fully engaged. I want to feel effortless.
[01:10:26.820 -> 01:10:29.800] I want to feel like anything's possible.
[01:10:29.800 -> 01:10:31.400] How are you feeling right now?
[01:10:31.400 -> 01:10:34.060] I'm feeling absolutely fearful, stressed.
[01:10:34.060 -> 01:10:36.000] And you're kind of like, right,
[01:10:36.000 -> 01:10:37.680] is that how, are you happy with this?
[01:10:37.680 -> 01:10:39.300] Or because we're sort of saying that, you know,
[01:10:39.300 -> 01:10:42.520] it can be, maybe it doesn't have to be this way.
[01:10:42.520 -> 01:10:44.440] But maybe, you know, there'll be a fight with that
[01:10:44.440 -> 01:10:47.000] because it's understood that actually by feeling this way,
[01:10:47.000 -> 01:10:49.000] the game seems to go okay, and therefore,
[01:10:49.000 -> 01:10:51.000] I think, well, actually, if I suffer a bit more,
[01:10:51.000 -> 01:10:53.000] it might go even better next time.
[01:10:53.000 -> 01:10:55.000] Before you know it, you're suffering so badly,
[01:10:55.000 -> 01:10:58.000] and then all it takes is you to realize that
[01:10:58.000 -> 01:10:59.000] this isn't helping my performance,
[01:10:59.000 -> 01:11:02.000] to be like, look, are you ready to explore a different way?
[01:11:02.000 -> 01:11:03.000] And it's, geez, it's challenging.
[01:11:03.000 -> 01:11:05.760] It involves a bit of vulnerability.
[01:11:05.760 -> 01:11:08.520] Definitely, if you ask me to sit in a change room
[01:11:08.520 -> 01:11:12.400] and just sit there and be, go on the mindset of,
[01:11:12.400 -> 01:11:14.560] if someone says to you, how's this gonna turn out?
[01:11:14.560 -> 01:11:16.840] Don't go with the, necessarily the idea of,
[01:11:16.840 -> 01:11:18.120] it's fine, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that,
[01:11:18.120 -> 01:11:19.360] we're gonna kill him, it's gonna be great.
[01:11:19.360 -> 01:11:21.880] Go with the mindset of like, who knows?
[01:11:21.880 -> 01:11:23.160] Let's see, you ready?
[01:11:23.160 -> 01:11:25.260] Yeah, definitely ready, let's go and take it on.
[01:11:25.260 -> 01:11:27.200] But we're so used to saying,
[01:11:27.200 -> 01:11:28.260] they need reassurance.
[01:11:28.260 -> 01:11:30.080] So let's give them the reassurance it's going to be fine.
[01:11:30.080 -> 01:11:32.360] But what we're doing is covering up the opportunity
[01:11:32.360 -> 01:11:34.540] to explore all it can be.
[01:11:34.540 -> 01:11:36.780] And we're trying to tell them what it should be
[01:11:36.780 -> 01:11:38.820] or what it must be or what it will be
[01:11:38.820 -> 01:11:41.440] instead of no, you go explore all it can be.
[01:11:41.440 -> 01:11:43.600] But just to understand that ongoing support
[01:11:43.600 -> 01:11:46.300] of realizing that no matter what happens,
[01:11:46.300 -> 01:11:50.200] your worth and value cannot be touched by it.
[01:11:50.200 -> 01:11:52.740] Your worth and value as a player,
[01:11:52.740 -> 01:11:54.800] in terms of the contract, okay, these things are moved,
[01:11:54.800 -> 01:11:56.580] but we understand each other,
[01:11:56.580 -> 01:11:59.880] that your worth as a being, an individual,
[01:11:59.880 -> 01:12:02.120] can never be touched and will always be there.
[01:12:02.120 -> 01:12:05.080] That's how I treat you, and that's how we treat each other.
[01:12:05.080 -> 01:12:07.440] That if I have to drop you from the squad,
[01:12:07.440 -> 01:12:11.000] you will feel in the way that we have that conversation,
[01:12:11.000 -> 01:12:14.080] that there couldn't be a greater respect for you.
[01:12:14.080 -> 01:12:15.540] And that nothing changed, and it's that
[01:12:15.540 -> 01:12:17.540] that always did it for me in terms of a squad.
[01:12:17.540 -> 01:12:20.700] It was knowing that that team is there
[01:12:24.360 -> 01:12:25.380] and that support is there,
[01:12:28.380 -> 01:12:30.120] no matter what, and yet, because of the influence of the media and this hierarchical thing
[01:12:30.120 -> 01:12:32.640] about who's better than this, who should be doing this,
[01:12:32.640 -> 01:12:35.940] that sometimes feels like it's taken away,
[01:12:35.940 -> 01:12:37.440] and you feel a bit like my importance,
[01:12:37.440 -> 01:12:41.600] my actual self-worth, my value, is defined by these games,
[01:12:42.660 -> 01:12:44.720] which I can't fully control, and then you're,
[01:12:44.720 -> 01:12:46.240] that's a tough place to be.
[01:12:46.240 -> 01:12:49.760] So as a father then, if your daughter
[01:12:49.760 -> 01:12:52.280] chose an aptitude for a certain sport
[01:12:52.280 -> 01:12:55.960] and she goes into it and she has some of that drive
[01:12:55.960 -> 01:12:59.600] for perfection and all those other environmental aspects
[01:12:59.600 -> 01:13:03.280] that you experienced as a child when she went into it,
[01:13:03.280 -> 01:13:05.120] given what you know now, how would that influence you as a child when she went into it. Given what you know now,
[01:13:05.120 -> 01:13:07.500] how would that influence you as a parent?
[01:13:07.500 -> 01:13:10.240] The thing is, is I don't know anything.
[01:13:10.240 -> 01:13:12.280] And I wouldn't know anything about her.
[01:13:12.280 -> 01:13:14.200] I'm not talking about my endorse too much,
[01:13:14.200 -> 01:13:16.060] but about anyone.
[01:13:16.060 -> 01:13:18.720] I don't own anyone, they're not mine.
[01:13:18.720 -> 01:13:19.760] I don't know them.
[01:13:19.760 -> 01:13:22.480] And therefore that's what the unconditional nature
[01:13:22.480 -> 01:13:27.500] of how I treat them is that I haven't got expectations or I don't know that you should be able to do this
[01:13:27.500 -> 01:13:34.000] It's just like everything you do is where you're supposed to be and I'm here to to try to be a constant
[01:13:34.880 -> 01:13:36.880] opportunity to explore
[01:13:37.200 -> 01:13:42.600] But you obviously know things that your daughter for example wouldn't know so it's you would pass that on
[01:13:42.720 -> 01:13:46.840] Yeah, but those things, I would pass on things
[01:13:46.840 -> 01:13:51.120] with regard to physical and mechanical skills.
[01:13:51.120 -> 01:13:55.040] But I can't give it anything to do with who you are,
[01:13:55.040 -> 01:13:56.700] how you should see things.
[01:13:56.700 -> 01:13:57.740] That's a choice.
[01:13:57.740 -> 01:14:01.120] Now if I start reaching into that,
[01:14:01.120 -> 01:14:03.380] I'm trying to shape someone.
[01:14:03.380 -> 01:14:04.440] Now if I'm gonna shape someone,
[01:14:04.440 -> 01:14:08.860] I must know exactly the most perfect shape for it to be.
[01:14:08.860 -> 01:14:11.100] But I don't, because I'm exploring my own life.
[01:14:11.100 -> 01:14:13.500] So I don't touch that, but I go into skills and things
[01:14:13.500 -> 01:14:15.400] to be like, look, here's something to explore.
[01:14:15.400 -> 01:14:17.200] My skills, I've done a lot of things mechanically,
[01:14:17.200 -> 01:14:19.340] this seems to be, work with me very much
[01:14:19.340 -> 01:14:20.900] in the cause and effect route.
[01:14:20.900 -> 01:14:22.840] How does it feel for you?
[01:14:22.840 -> 01:14:24.180] It's never a case of right and wrong,
[01:14:24.180 -> 01:14:25.800] it's just like, you know, do that with the guys,
[01:14:25.800 -> 01:14:29.680] to be like, look, try this, and everything's life-based,
[01:14:29.680 -> 01:14:33.120] but like, here's a representation of it physically,
[01:14:33.120 -> 01:14:35.780] standing up bigger and taller, aligned in the spine,
[01:14:35.780 -> 01:14:37.260] looseness in the limbs, all these things
[01:14:37.260 -> 01:14:39.300] that represent something, being grounded,
[01:14:39.300 -> 01:14:41.980] it's all a life-based feel, but it's done through skills,
[01:14:41.980 -> 01:14:44.220] and to be like, if it's working, great.
[01:14:44.220 -> 01:14:45.300] If people prefer to be more, here, it's done through skills and to be like if it's working great if people prefer to be more
[01:14:46.160 -> 01:14:49.560] Here it's kind of like well, let's go from there and let's explore that
[01:14:50.200 -> 01:14:57.200] There is no right wrong. I think people for me anyway tends to be this thing about that disappointment and and anger
[01:14:57.720 -> 01:15:04.180] Are wrong. I don't know that it's what is but when you explore them their possibilities
[01:15:04.600 -> 01:15:06.500] But when you react to them, they become
[01:15:07.080 -> 01:15:13.060] Damaging and with that answer in mind. My final question was going to be for people who have listened to this podcast
[01:15:13.060 -> 01:15:18.040] Hmm feel maybe a bit like me that this is a journey that they would like to know more about
[01:15:18.920 -> 01:15:24.000] What would be your piece of advice to begin the journey that you've been on? Where did you begin it?
[01:15:24.000 -> 01:15:28.900] What what's the one thing you can take away from this conversation? It's a it's a good question
[01:15:29.960 -> 01:15:32.200] but it's also it's a tricky one because
[01:15:32.680 -> 01:15:38.520] But it's so much it flies in the face of everything. We've a little bit mentioned it, but it also it's also that if without
[01:15:39.560 -> 01:15:44.120] Knowing or getting to know someone through what they say and spending time with people
[01:15:44.120 -> 01:15:47.500] it's one of those where it's almost more dangerous.
[01:15:47.500 -> 01:15:52.500] But for me, it was just asking the big question
[01:15:54.620 -> 01:15:56.540] of how am I at my best?
[01:15:56.540 -> 01:15:58.620] And then hearing that and being like,
[01:15:58.620 -> 01:15:59.700] doesn't it feel amazing?
[01:15:59.700 -> 01:16:02.020] And it's like, what's stopping me
[01:16:02.020 -> 01:16:03.460] from being like that all the time?
[01:16:03.460 -> 01:16:07.140] And a clever or clever sort of tool that I use would be like, what's stopping me from being like that all the time? And a clever, or clever, a sort of tool that I use
[01:16:07.140 -> 01:16:09.380] would be, like, if you imagine,
[01:16:09.380 -> 01:16:12.100] I call it like the super version of you.
[01:16:12.100 -> 01:16:13.420] I don't mean that as in it's better,
[01:16:13.420 -> 01:16:15.720] I just mean like the super version of you
[01:16:15.720 -> 01:16:19.800] doing what you want to do, or you're about to do,
[01:16:21.460 -> 01:16:23.500] and imagine that super version of you doing it
[01:16:23.500 -> 01:16:26.260] in just the most, however you want them to do it.
[01:16:26.260 -> 01:16:30.420] I use beautiful, graceful, flowing, just connected,
[01:16:31.600 -> 01:16:34.360] just light, airy, all those kind of things.
[01:16:34.360 -> 01:16:37.100] And I imagine it, and then I ask a simple question
[01:16:37.100 -> 01:16:39.940] of what is it that they have that I don't?
[01:16:39.940 -> 01:16:41.560] And the answer is nothing.
[01:16:41.560 -> 01:16:43.660] The bigger question is what is it that I have
[01:16:43.660 -> 01:16:45.000] that they don't? What is it that I have that they don't?
[01:16:45.000 -> 01:16:47.800] What is it that I'm holding onto that they're not?
[01:16:47.800 -> 01:16:51.880] And letting go is something I can do immediately.
[01:16:52.820 -> 01:16:55.220] But we create this idea that the super version of you
[01:16:55.220 -> 01:16:57.400] has done the 10,000 hours.
[01:16:57.400 -> 01:17:00.280] The super version of you isn't about getting all the ticks,
[01:17:00.280 -> 01:17:03.400] it's about the graceful beauty, the flow,
[01:17:03.400 -> 01:17:05.360] the elegance, the connectedness and
[01:17:06.040 -> 01:17:10.560] That comes down to what we have and they don't not the other way around. Mm-hmm. And so just be it
[01:17:11.240 -> 01:17:14.600] But don't try and compare yourself to it be your version of it right now
[01:17:14.600 -> 01:17:17.480] And you'll realize that your version is way better than you could ever imagine
[01:17:18.240 -> 01:17:20.840] wonderful answer incredible conversation we have some
[01:17:21.520 -> 01:17:25.000] Quick fire questions. We finished with these. Yep, regardless of who the guest is
[01:17:25.800 -> 01:17:30.460] The three non-negotiable behaviors that people around you must buy into
[01:17:31.240 -> 01:17:32.520] impossible
[01:17:32.520 -> 01:17:37.480] Impossible to answer no such thing as a yeah as a non-negotiable is open this one
[01:17:37.700 -> 01:17:40.420] well, the thing is though if this is a really
[01:17:41.040 -> 01:17:43.360] because one of the things that we would speak about is
[01:17:44.200 -> 01:17:46.440] creating the environment,
[01:17:46.440 -> 01:17:49.560] internal environment for potential to blossom.
[01:17:49.560 -> 01:17:52.560] And you sort of say, well, what is that internal environment?
[01:17:52.560 -> 01:17:56.400] Aliveness, openness, and you're sort of like, right,
[01:17:56.400 -> 01:17:59.200] but if you know what aliveness and openness is,
[01:17:59.200 -> 01:18:01.360] it's not aliveness or openness.
[01:18:01.360 -> 01:18:03.520] It's conforming to an idea.
[01:18:03.520 -> 01:18:07.900] So you just have to go on the basis of how do you become alive is to choose now
[01:18:09.280 -> 01:18:10.780] and choose unknown.
[01:18:10.780 -> 01:18:13.680] Choose to say what do I really know
[01:18:13.680 -> 01:18:15.680] about anything in life?
[01:18:15.680 -> 01:18:19.120] And realize that once I realize I know nothing,
[01:18:19.120 -> 01:18:21.760] everything becomes a possibility.
[01:18:21.760 -> 01:18:24.160] Now I'm worried though that what I think I need to be,
[01:18:24.160 -> 01:18:25.120] I'm actually just being controlled I think I need to be,
[01:18:25.120 -> 01:18:27.620] I'm actually just being controlled by outside forces
[01:18:27.620 -> 01:18:30.420] rather than the, right, being open,
[01:18:30.420 -> 01:18:32.760] what I think is open is actually just my opinion of open.
[01:18:32.760 -> 01:18:34.760] But you just said it there, you said what I need to be.
[01:18:34.760 -> 01:18:36.260] If you'd have said what I want to be,
[01:18:36.260 -> 01:18:37.360] it'd be a different question.
[01:18:37.360 -> 01:18:39.160] Need and want are the difference
[01:18:39.160 -> 01:18:41.920] between external influence and internal.
[01:18:41.920 -> 01:18:44.160] And if it's what you want, then it's for you.
[01:18:44.160 -> 01:18:45.160] If it's what you need, then it's for you if it's what you need then it's
[01:18:45.800 -> 01:18:47.800] for the basis of
[01:18:48.320 -> 01:18:54.600] Pleasing something else. What advice would you give a teenage Johnny starting out just going back to passion?
[01:18:54.840 -> 01:18:57.720] There's nothing more powerful than passion
[01:18:58.520 -> 01:19:04.200] Excitement and a willingness to learn and that comes in the same basis of curiosity
[01:19:03.520 -> 01:19:06.220] willingness to learn, and that comes in the same basis of curiosity, be those things would be the things
[01:19:06.220 -> 01:19:09.120] that I would constantly probe at,
[01:19:09.120 -> 01:19:11.520] I would challenge constantly to be like,
[01:19:11.520 -> 01:19:13.740] right, so where's the opportunity in this?
[01:19:13.740 -> 01:19:16.600] And move away from the dead end of I've worked this out
[01:19:16.600 -> 01:19:20.880] and move back to the space of I can use that
[01:19:20.880 -> 01:19:23.480] to see what's possible.
[01:19:23.480 -> 01:19:26.720] That's what I do, just ignite or continue to keep
[01:19:26.720 -> 01:19:28.240] that passion burning.
[01:19:28.240 -> 01:19:32.000] Because that's, when I called that day with rugby,
[01:19:32.000 -> 01:19:35.420] when I was about to, one of the things I remember saying
[01:19:35.420 -> 01:19:38.220] to someone was that the passion has been replaced
[01:19:38.220 -> 01:19:39.220] by pressure.
[01:19:40.140 -> 01:19:42.480] And this is at the end of my career when I sort of
[01:19:42.480 -> 01:19:45.980] evolved towards more opportunity and even still,
[01:19:45.980 -> 01:19:48.200] I called it that as if there was some kind of,
[01:19:48.200 -> 01:19:50.960] as if it was the game's fault for holding up banners
[01:19:50.960 -> 01:19:53.440] with my name at Games or writing in the paper
[01:19:53.440 -> 01:19:55.360] that I was going to do this or if it was the fact
[01:19:55.360 -> 01:19:56.980] that I had two finals in the end season
[01:19:56.980 -> 01:19:59.840] and couldn't bear it, it's like, but it was all mine.
[01:19:59.840 -> 01:20:02.900] It was my pressure covering up my passion.
[01:20:02.900 -> 01:20:04.700] And so I look at that thing, I gave up the game
[01:20:04.700 -> 01:20:08.440] on the basis of my own doing.
[01:20:08.440 -> 01:20:10.440] And I'd say keep that passion alive,
[01:20:10.440 -> 01:20:11.980] and anything's possible.
[01:20:11.980 -> 01:20:12.820] Yeah.
[01:20:12.820 -> 01:20:14.080] Are you happy?
[01:20:14.080 -> 01:20:15.080] Yeah, yeah.
[01:20:15.080 -> 01:20:18.720] I think you'd have to redefine happiness.
[01:20:18.720 -> 01:20:20.120] How do you define it?
[01:20:20.120 -> 01:20:20.960] It's a really good question.
[01:20:20.960 -> 01:20:21.840] I've never even gone to that
[01:20:21.840 -> 01:20:23.720] because that's normally the base level.
[01:20:23.720 -> 01:20:25.360] But for me, it's like, if we're talking about it now,
[01:20:25.360 -> 01:20:26.280] am I happy?
[01:20:26.280 -> 01:20:28.100] To get away from the definition of,
[01:20:28.100 -> 01:20:29.440] am I walking around,
[01:20:29.440 -> 01:20:31.480] kind of like people expect to see you kind of smile.
[01:20:31.480 -> 01:20:35.320] Are you happy in your definition of happiness?
[01:20:35.320 -> 01:20:36.960] Maybe, if you don't know what that is,
[01:20:36.960 -> 01:20:37.800] maybe that's a hard one to answer.
[01:20:37.800 -> 01:20:41.680] I think it's, am I grateful to be alive?
[01:20:41.680 -> 01:20:42.520] Yeah.
[01:20:42.520 -> 01:20:44.360] Yeah, incredibly.
[01:20:44.360 -> 01:20:46.320] And what's your one golden rule
[01:20:46.320 -> 01:20:48.640] for a high-performance life?
[01:20:48.640 -> 01:20:51.560] Explore, that's it, versus control.
[01:20:52.620 -> 01:20:53.800] As soon as you're on controlling,
[01:20:53.800 -> 01:20:56.960] it's a decision that I know how things should be,
[01:20:56.960 -> 01:20:59.020] and then with that is the downhills,
[01:20:59.020 -> 01:21:03.180] sort of ever-reducing cycle of pressure, expectation.
[01:21:05.320 -> 01:21:08.440] As soon as you let go of that understanding of,
[01:21:08.440 -> 01:21:09.280] or that self-importance of,
[01:21:09.280 -> 01:21:11.400] I know how things are and they need to be,
[01:21:11.400 -> 01:21:14.000] you're in a space of exploring.
[01:21:14.000 -> 01:21:17.900] That doesn't mean that you stop training,
[01:21:17.900 -> 01:21:19.020] doing everything, it means the opposite.
[01:21:19.020 -> 01:21:20.760] It's just you explore your training.
[01:21:20.760 -> 01:21:22.080] You explore your rest.
[01:21:22.080 -> 01:21:23.760] You explore your own body.
[01:21:23.760 -> 01:21:25.680] You explore your own being. You explore everything. And if you're own body you explore your own being you explore
[01:21:26.240 -> 01:21:31.680] everything and if you're exploring you're gonna find something new when you find something new you're growing if you
[01:21:32.000 -> 01:21:36.700] Spend this life growing and exploring and finding out new things and whatever by the end
[01:21:36.800 -> 01:21:43.200] That seems like a reasonable journey. And if you're exploring what's on the inside, it's a damn good journey. Thank you very much. Pleasure
[01:21:42.200 -> 01:21:43.040] on the inside, it's a damn good journey. Thank you very much.
[01:21:43.040 -> 01:21:43.880] Pleasure.
[01:21:45.260 -> 01:21:46.100] Damien.
[01:21:46.100 -> 01:21:47.220] Jake.
[01:21:47.220 -> 01:21:48.460] What did you make of that?
[01:21:48.460 -> 01:21:50.500] My brain is hurting, if I'm honest,
[01:21:50.500 -> 01:21:53.440] but in a really good way, I think he made me think.
[01:21:53.440 -> 01:21:56.860] I think he challenged lots of these old beliefs,
[01:21:56.860 -> 01:21:59.200] old perceptions that we have about success,
[01:21:59.200 -> 01:22:02.080] and the fact that we never spoke about rugby once
[01:22:02.080 -> 01:22:05.440] in the conversation, I thought was really quite telling.
[01:22:05.440 -> 01:22:08.440] I feel kind of armed against criticism
[01:22:08.440 -> 01:22:11.440] or sniping or negativity of people going,
[01:22:11.440 -> 01:22:13.600] oh, what's Johnny Wilkinson talking about?
[01:22:13.600 -> 01:22:14.740] I don't get it.
[01:22:14.740 -> 01:22:17.640] Because what he spoke about was that
[01:22:17.640 -> 01:22:20.360] other people's perceptions are an absolute irrelevance.
[01:22:20.360 -> 01:22:21.560] So if people have listened to that
[01:22:21.560 -> 01:22:24.640] and have taken loads from it, and I think I have,
[01:22:24.640 -> 01:22:27.000] then great. If people have listened to that and it's not from it, and I think I have Then great if people have listened to that and it's not for them
[01:22:27.940 -> 01:22:30.380] Then it doesn't matter does it exactly?
[01:22:30.380 -> 01:22:35.980] I think he gave that great description of himself that if he if he'd have been a 22 year old player listening to that conversation
[01:22:36.180 -> 01:22:39.980] He'd have dismissed it then at 25. He would have
[01:22:40.540 -> 01:22:45.520] Argued back against it and then at 28
[01:22:42.800 -> 01:22:47.600] it have embraced it fully and I think it's
[01:22:45.520 -> 01:22:50.520] where you are a particular time that
[01:22:47.600 -> 01:22:52.280] means that those lessons will be relevant
[01:22:50.520 -> 01:22:55.360] or otherwise to you. I'll tell you where
[01:22:52.280 -> 01:22:57.360] I am I am a point where I find some of
[01:22:55.360 -> 01:22:59.200] the things he talked about quite a
[01:22:57.360 -> 01:23:02.080] stretch and quite a reach yeah because my
[01:22:59.200 -> 01:23:03.840] you know why would I why would I not
[01:23:02.080 -> 01:23:05.880] because my brain is not in the place that
[01:23:03.840 -> 01:23:13.220] his is in yeah he's spent a lot of time thinking and learning and questioning where I am absolutely aligned with him is in the flow and the
[01:23:13.220 -> 01:23:18.700] growth mindset and being present and living passionately and being fully connected
[01:23:18.700 -> 01:23:21.460] You know, I kind of when I finish being alive
[01:23:21.460 -> 01:23:26.360] I want to be like an exhausted and burned out husk of a person,
[01:23:26.360 -> 01:23:29.480] because I want to have given absolutely everything,
[01:23:29.480 -> 01:23:30.900] rather than just sort of float through
[01:23:30.900 -> 01:23:32.520] and quite enjoy it sometimes.
[01:23:32.520 -> 01:23:33.360] That's interesting.
[01:23:33.360 -> 01:23:34.760] I really relate to that.
[01:23:34.760 -> 01:23:38.920] Nowhere were you talking purely about making so much money,
[01:23:38.920 -> 01:23:41.440] living in a certain size house, driving a certain car.
[01:23:41.440 -> 01:23:45.600] It's all about the being that I think Johnny was describing.
[01:23:45.600 -> 01:23:47.080] I mean, personally, what I took from it was
[01:23:47.080 -> 01:23:49.720] I loved this challenge of rather than talking about
[01:23:49.720 -> 01:23:51.600] is something right or wrong?
[01:23:51.600 -> 01:23:54.540] I like the question, is it helpful or unhelpful?
[01:23:54.540 -> 01:23:56.440] Is how you're feeling at this moment helpful
[01:23:56.440 -> 01:23:59.120] and how you want to feel or is it not?
[01:23:59.120 -> 01:24:02.080] And I think they're really great places to go
[01:24:02.080 -> 01:24:03.640] because it stops us getting into a world
[01:24:03.640 -> 01:24:05.320] of black and white, you win or lose you
[01:24:05.720 -> 01:24:10.880] Success or a failure you just where you are at a certain moment of time with the resources you have
[01:24:11.080 -> 01:24:17.240] And I now look at all of the conversations we've had up until this point with some of the greatest minds greatest leaders greatest
[01:24:17.240 -> 01:24:21.520] Achievers and it feels like maybe we none of us have quite got deep enough
[01:24:22.080 -> 01:24:23.240] You know, yeah
[01:24:23.240 -> 01:24:26.360] Yeah none of us have quite got deep enough, you know? Yeah, yeah. And the phrase I used at the start
[01:24:26.360 -> 01:24:27.960] when we were with Johnny was that,
[01:24:27.960 -> 01:24:30.600] I think courage is a real feature of him
[01:24:30.600 -> 01:24:31.920] in terms of the physical courage,
[01:24:31.920 -> 01:24:33.560] what he did at a certain stage of his life.
[01:24:33.560 -> 01:24:35.640] But the courage now to come on here
[01:24:35.640 -> 01:24:38.040] and to share some of those ideas
[01:24:38.040 -> 01:24:39.920] and challenge some of our thinking
[01:24:39.920 -> 01:24:42.240] is something that I really respect and admire.
[01:24:42.240 -> 01:24:45.820] And I hope people listening admire
[01:24:45.820 -> 01:24:48.600] that virtue of courage that he's shown.
[01:24:48.600 -> 01:24:49.440] Thanks for your time.
[01:24:49.440 -> 01:24:50.680] No, brilliant, thank you.
[01:24:50.680 -> 01:24:54.680] ♪
[01:24:54.680 -> 01:24:56.320] Well, Damien, as always, it's nice to sort of sit
[01:24:56.320 -> 01:24:58.260] and take a look at what people have been saying
[01:24:58.260 -> 01:25:01.240] about the pod over the last few days.
[01:25:01.240 -> 01:25:03.440] And what I love is people listening to episodes
[01:25:03.440 -> 01:25:04.840] that have been around for a while.
[01:25:04.840 -> 01:25:10.860] So a message came in on Twitter saying having just discovered the high-performance podcast. I am now binge listening
[01:25:11.460 -> 01:25:17.540] Dina Asher Smith is a ray of sunshine. Not only does she love what she does, but she has time for everyone, too
[01:25:18.060 -> 01:25:20.980] And also someone said I love Ben Ainsley
[01:25:20.980 -> 01:25:26.180] The podcast was thought-provoking his attitude to analyzing and challenging failure was similar to the Reese
[01:25:26.180 -> 01:25:32.060] Wabara method and I agree with them both that hitting the home truths first and learning from others failures is key to living a
[01:25:32.060 -> 01:25:35.660] High-performance life and I like listening back to these episodes
[01:25:35.900 -> 01:25:41.560] Because you can pick out threads that that bind together all of the high-performance individuals that we speak to
[01:25:41.760 -> 01:25:42.260] Yeah
[01:25:42.260 -> 01:25:46.440] I think one of the big things that we've identified in doing this Jake is that we almost want them to be timeless that we speak to? Yeah, I think one of the big things that we've identified in doing this, Jake, is that we almost want them
[01:25:46.440 -> 01:25:48.720] to be timeless, that we want to capture
[01:25:49.640 -> 01:25:51.200] some of the lessons from these guys
[01:25:51.200 -> 01:25:53.080] that people can go back to in years to come
[01:25:53.080 -> 01:25:55.960] and understand the success and the clues
[01:25:55.960 -> 01:25:57.720] that they've left behind.
[01:25:57.720 -> 01:26:00.200] I think another big thing then is I'm delighted
[01:26:00.200 -> 01:26:02.520] when you say that, that people are picking up the threads,
[01:26:02.520 -> 01:26:04.040] the common ground between these guys,
[01:26:04.040 -> 01:26:06.380] that their industry, their endeavors might have been
[01:26:06.380 -> 01:26:10.320] different, but the self-belief or the resilience,
[01:26:10.320 -> 01:26:13.060] the characteristics that are just as applicable.
[01:26:13.060 -> 01:26:14.960] If today's episode of the podcast featuring
[01:26:14.960 -> 01:26:17.160] Johnny Wilkinson is the first time that you've found
[01:26:17.160 -> 01:26:20.500] high performance, honestly, please go back and listen.
[01:26:20.500 -> 01:26:22.560] You've got the whole of series two and series one
[01:26:22.560 -> 01:26:24.480] to catch up on.
[01:26:24.480 -> 01:26:25.200] And it's
[01:26:25.200 -> 01:26:30.320] lovely when people find old episodes and feel that it's moved them so much they
[01:26:30.320 -> 01:26:33.560] want to get in touch so my brother-in-law recommended an awesome
[01:26:33.560 -> 01:26:36.420] podcast which I've just listened to for the first time called the high
[01:26:36.420 -> 01:26:45.000] performance podcast it's by Damian Lewis and Jake Humphrey and I have just listened to the Sean Wayne episode
[01:26:45.120 -> 01:26:48.800] and my mind is blown.
[01:26:48.800 -> 01:26:52.680] I have never, ever listened to a podcast
[01:26:52.680 -> 01:26:54.840] that is so inspirational
[01:26:55.800 -> 01:26:58.480] and just like has literally taken my breath away.
[01:26:58.480 -> 01:27:00.960] Every single step of the journey
[01:27:00.960 -> 01:27:04.240] in how he said it and how you tease it out of him,
[01:27:09.820 -> 01:27:09.900] it's just literally made my day. So thank you so much and everyone download the high-performance podcast
[01:27:16.180 -> 01:27:20.120] Well, that was a message that came in from finance Yale who got in touch with us on Instagram and the thing that got me There Damian it I mean the fact that she was almost moved to tears but a tear in my eye
[01:27:20.140 -> 01:27:25.680] yeah, very much and I think that's a huge testament to Sean when we met him.
[01:27:25.680 -> 01:27:29.320] And just for someone to be so open and honest
[01:27:29.320 -> 01:27:31.840] about his own childhood and the own experiences
[01:27:31.840 -> 01:27:35.060] that have shaped him to be the father and the coach
[01:27:35.060 -> 01:27:39.020] that he is today, I think speaks volumes for him
[01:27:39.020 -> 01:27:41.220] as a person because vulnerability is one of the big
[01:27:41.220 -> 01:27:43.500] key themes of this podcast.
[01:27:43.500 -> 01:27:45.600] People being prepared to open themselves up,
[01:27:45.600 -> 01:27:48.400] whether that's to failure, whether it's to feedback,
[01:27:48.400 -> 01:27:52.860] or whether it's to, in Shaun's case, traumatic experiences,
[01:27:52.860 -> 01:27:55.880] to open themselves up and learn from it is phenomenal,
[01:27:55.880 -> 01:27:58.280] and it gives me huge satisfaction.
[01:27:58.280 -> 01:28:00.440] And look, Damien and I are so fortunate
[01:28:00.440 -> 01:28:01.720] to be in a position where we can sit
[01:28:01.720 -> 01:28:04.600] and talk to these people, but we can all do this.
[01:28:04.600 -> 01:28:07.380] You know, everyone knows something you don't know so every time you walk
[01:28:07.380 -> 01:28:11.460] into a room every time you meet someone new just ask a question of them just
[01:28:11.460 -> 01:28:14.900] challenge them and that's how I have learned more in my life than I ever
[01:28:14.900 -> 01:28:18.980] would have picked up otherwise it's just asking questions and it's amazing Damien
[01:28:18.980 -> 01:28:22.460] how often people are willing to share yeah there was a brilliant study years
[01:28:22.460 -> 01:28:28.040] ago Jake from them they did it at American med schools where they were looking at doctors that were sued the most versus doctors that
[01:28:28.040 -> 01:28:32.160] were sued the least. And when they did the study, what they found is doctors that were
[01:28:32.160 -> 01:28:38.120] sued the least had, the only difference was longer appointment times. And on average,
[01:28:38.120 -> 01:28:41.480] the appointment time tended to be about three and a half minutes longer. So they're not
[01:28:41.480 -> 01:28:50.640] giving better advice in that three and a half minutes. What they're doing is just simply creating space to listen. So when you deliver a prognosis or a
[01:28:50.640 -> 01:28:56.560] diagnosis to a patient and then you just allow them to respond and listen. And one of the phrases
[01:28:56.560 -> 01:29:01.840] they talk about in med schools is you get comfortable with discomfort. So you get, if
[01:29:01.840 -> 01:29:06.500] somebody is upset, you don't immediately try to fix it. You just allow them to be upset
[01:29:06.500 -> 01:29:08.500] and you just stay there with them.
[01:29:08.500 -> 01:29:11.500] And I think that some of these themes on the podcast,
[01:29:11.500 -> 01:29:14.500] if it challenges you, rather than turn it off
[01:29:14.500 -> 01:29:16.500] or assume that they're wrong, just listen to it.
[01:29:16.500 -> 01:29:19.500] Be discomfort, allow the discomfort of maybe having
[01:29:19.500 -> 01:29:21.500] your thoughts challenged just to stay there.
[01:29:21.500 -> 01:29:23.500] And then eventually you'll process it
[01:29:23.500 -> 01:29:27.440] and come up with your version of it,
[01:29:27.440 -> 01:29:29.320] however you define it.
[01:29:29.320 -> 01:29:30.760] Great advice, I love that.
[01:29:30.760 -> 01:29:34.040] And as well as asking questions of people,
[01:29:34.040 -> 01:29:35.480] open yourselves up to people as well.
[01:29:35.480 -> 01:29:37.800] Be the person that is so open and so honest.
[01:29:37.800 -> 01:29:39.200] People come to you for advice.
[01:29:39.200 -> 01:29:42.840] I think that is another important thing in this life.
[01:29:42.840 -> 01:29:44.520] And we very much look forward to your comments
[01:29:44.520 -> 01:29:46.680] coming in after this episode with Johnny Wilkinson
[01:29:46.680 -> 01:29:51.640] It was an amazing conversation. Not one that either of us were expecting probably not one that you were expecting either
[01:29:51.640 -> 01:29:55.820] But I hope you found it enlightening and that's pretty much it a huge
[01:29:55.820 -> 01:30:01.800] Thanks to Finn Ryan at rethink audio for his hard work on the podcast to all of the team behind the high performance podcast
[01:30:01.800 -> 01:30:03.800] Don't forget check us out on YouTube
[01:30:02.160 -> 01:30:05.120] the team behind the high performance podcast. Don't forget, check us out on YouTube. You can follow out
[01:30:05.120 -> 01:30:08.280] high performance on Instagram as well. And we look forward to
[01:30:08.280 -> 01:30:11.340] welcoming you back for series three, which will be coming your
[01:30:11.340 -> 01:30:15.160] way very soon indeed. Thanks so much for the support. And we'll
[01:30:15.160 -> 01:30:37.440] speak soon. to save up to $100.
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