E207 - Emily Maitlis: How I Approached THAT Prince Andrew Interview

This is the final episode of our new Leadership Series, sponsored by PwC, in which we will be diving deep into what it really takes to be a great leader.

Emily Maitlis is a journalist, presenter of the ground-breaking daily podcast The News Agents, documentary filmmaker and former BBC Newsnight anchor. She is known for her skilled and informative interviews including THAT interview for Newsnight. In this conversation, they explore what it means to be an excellent interviewer. They discuss how Emily creates a compelling narrative, how she prepares for each interview and what her main objective always is.

She shares with Jake and Damian how covering traumatic events, such as school shootings in the US, the Paris terror attacks and Grenfell, has taken its toll. They discuss how she, and the Newsnight team secured the highly significant Prince Andrew interview, and the immense pressure that came with it.

Thank you to PwC for sponsoring this special CEO Series. PwC’s purpose is to build trust and solve important problems, and their global strategy - The New Equation - is bringing this to life for their clients, people and society. By combining technology with human ingenuity, passion and experience, PwC works with organisations to deliver more intelligent, sustained outcomes.

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**Navigating Challenges in Journalism and the Importance of Preparation: Emily Maitlis' Journey**

**Introduction:**

Emily Maitlis, a renowned journalist, presenter, and documentary filmmaker, joins the High Performance podcast to discuss the intricacies of conducting powerful interviews, the significance of preparation, and the personal toll of covering traumatic events.

**Overcoming Obstacles in Journalism:**

- **The Emotional Toll of Reporting Traumatic Events:** Maitlis reflects on the emotional impact of covering traumatic events such as school shootings, the Paris terror attacks, and the Grenfell Tower fire. She emphasizes the need for self-care and recognizing the toll that such experiences can take on journalists.

- **Balancing Personal and Professional Life:** Maitlis shares her struggle to maintain a healthy work-life balance, particularly when faced with demanding assignments. She highlights the importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing personal well-being.

- **The Pressure of High-Profile Interviews:** Maitlis discusses the immense pressure she faced in securing and conducting the highly significant interview with Prince Andrew, emphasizing the need for meticulous preparation and the ability to remain calm under intense scrutiny.

**Preparation and Interviewing Techniques:**

- **The Importance of Preparation:** Maitlis stresses the significance of thorough preparation, including extensive research, understanding the interviewee's background, and anticipating potential responses. She explains how this preparation helps her build a compelling narrative and ensures a productive interview.

- **Establishing a Clear Objective:** Maitlis emphasizes the importance of having a clear objective for each interview, ensuring that she obtains the desired information and insights from the interviewee. She believes that a well-defined objective guides the interview and helps her avoid confusion or missed opportunities.

- **Building a Rapport with the Interviewee:** Maitlis discusses the importance of establishing a rapport with the interviewee, creating a comfortable and open environment that encourages candid responses. She highlights the role of active listening and empathy in fostering a connection with the interviewee.

**The Prince Andrew Interview:**

- **Securing the Interview:** Maitlis shares the behind-the-scenes story of how Newsnight secured the highly sought-after interview with Prince Andrew, describing the competitive bidding process and the intense negotiations that led to its realization.

- **Preparation and Mindset:** Maitlis reveals her preparation process for the interview, including extensive research, role-playing exercises, and visualization techniques. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a calm and focused mindset despite the immense pressure.

- **Navigating Difficult Questions:** Maitlis discusses the challenges of asking difficult and potentially uncomfortable questions to Prince Andrew, explaining how she approached these moments with respect and a commitment to uncovering the truth.

**Conclusion:**

Emily Maitlis' journey as a journalist offers valuable insights into the complexities of conducting impactful interviews, the importance of preparation, and the resilience required to navigate the emotional challenges of covering traumatic events. Her experiences serve as a reminder of the power of journalism in holding those in positions of power accountable and shedding light on important societal issues.

# Leadership Series: An Interview with Emily Maitlis

In this episode of the Leadership Series, sponsored by PwC, Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes engage in a captivating conversation with Emily Maitlis, a renowned journalist, presenter, and former BBC Newsnight anchor. The discussion delves into the intricacies of being an exceptional interviewer, the challenges of covering traumatic events, and Maitlis' decision to depart from the BBC.

## The Art of Interviewing

Maitlis emphasizes the significance of establishing a compelling narrative and preparing thoroughly for each interview. She highlights the importance of identifying the core question that drives the interview and maintaining a neutral and unbiased stance. Maitlis also stresses the value of active listening and being open to unexpected responses from the interviewee.

## Covering Traumatic Events

Maitlis candidly shares her experiences covering traumatic events, such as school shootings, the Paris terror attacks, and the Grenfell Tower fire. She acknowledges the toll these events have taken on her and her team, emphasizing the need for self-care and support. Maitlis also discusses the immense pressure and scrutiny that came with securing and conducting the highly significant interview with Prince Andrew.

## The Decision to Leave the BBC

Maitlis reflects on her decision to leave the BBC after 20 years, describing it as a brave move that was motivated by a desire for a new challenge. She highlights the importance of embracing change and being open to new opportunities, particularly for women in the media industry. Maitlis also emphasizes the significance of asking for what you want and not waiting for recognition to come to you.

## Key Takeaways

- **Preparation and Clarity:** Thorough preparation and a clear understanding of the core question are crucial for conducting successful interviews.

- **Active Listening:** Listening attentively and being open to unexpected responses from the interviewee enhances the quality of the interview.

- **Self-Care and Support:** Covering traumatic events can take a toll on journalists. Self-care and support from colleagues and loved ones are essential for maintaining well-being.

- **Embracing Change:** Being open to new challenges and opportunities can lead to personal and professional growth.

- **Asking for What You Want:** Women in the media industry should not hesitate to ask for the opportunities and recognition they deserve.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.200] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the
[00:05.200 -> 00:10.160] minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jay Comfrey and alongside
[00:10.160 -> 00:15.560] Professor Damian Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes and struggles of our guests,
[00:15.560 -> 00:22.640] allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow. Here's what's in store today.
[00:22.640 -> 00:25.140] I was living off vodka and caffeine,
[00:25.140 -> 00:29.080] and it sounds crazy, but the one was to wake you up
[00:29.080 -> 00:31.000] when you were too tired to think,
[00:31.000 -> 00:33.280] and the one was to send you to sleep
[00:33.280 -> 00:35.240] when you were too wired to sleep.
[00:35.240 -> 00:37.300] And I remember asking this dreadful question,
[00:37.300 -> 00:39.800] which every journalist recognizes
[00:39.800 -> 00:42.720] and no human being ever wants to ask,
[00:42.720 -> 00:44.620] which is, how many?
[00:45.960 -> 00:50.480] no human being ever wants to ask, which is, how many? If I'm doing an interview that leaves people confused,
[00:50.480 -> 00:51.720] I've failed.
[00:51.720 -> 00:56.120] And if I'm doing an interview which has interrupted,
[00:56.120 -> 00:59.000] or cut somebody short, or not got
[00:59.000 -> 01:01.640] to the bottom of something, I've failed.
[01:01.640 -> 01:07.480] I was the one person in the world at that point who could ask the questions
[01:08.200 -> 01:12.360] That the women wanted answering right that was all
[01:13.520 -> 01:16.840] So today we welcome Emily Maitlis to high-performance
[01:16.840 -> 01:23.240] We actually recorded this in a live setting in front of about a thousand people at a recent event that Damien and I hosted
[01:23.240 -> 01:27.340] for PWC and this leadership series is in association with
[01:27.860 -> 01:31.960] PWC because they believe that we can build trust and we can solve problems
[01:32.220 -> 01:37.660] By putting human beings at the heart of our decision-making and that plays so nicely
[01:37.900 -> 01:41.600] Into what we believe here at high performance because you're about to hear from a woman
[01:41.680 -> 01:46.000] Who was at the center of the biggest royal interview in our lifetimes.
[01:46.000 -> 01:49.000] But this isn't a conversation just about that interview.
[01:49.000 -> 01:53.000] This is a conversation about the struggles of covering trauma,
[01:53.000 -> 01:57.000] the challenges of not actually knowing what tomorrow might bring,
[01:57.000 -> 02:04.000] but also how the interview that she did with Prince Andrew really raised her levels of doubt and fear.
[02:04.000 -> 02:05.840] And how did she combat it? Well she
[02:05.840 -> 02:10.200] will talk to us about the power of preparation, the importance of self
[02:10.200 -> 02:15.120] belief. It's a great conversation, it's also the final episode in our PwC
[02:15.120 -> 02:21.480] leadership series so let's get to it and welcome Emily Maitlis.
[02:28.000 -> 02:42.000] Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage, Emily Maitlis. APPLAUSE
[02:42.000 -> 02:46.000] Hi. How are you?
[02:46.000 -> 02:48.000] Well, I'm very well.
[02:48.000 -> 02:51.000] How would you describe high performance?
[02:51.000 -> 02:58.000] I think it's about getting yourself to a place where you are happy with who you are.
[02:58.000 -> 03:03.000] And it sounds very obvious, but actually, whether it's about what you look like,
[03:03.000 -> 03:10.760] what you feel like, what you sound like, whether you're getting up each day to do a job that you like, love
[03:10.760 -> 03:14.720] rather than something that sort of terrifies you or defeats you or
[03:14.720 -> 03:20.020] frustrates you. I think it's about finding your inner place where you can
[03:20.020 -> 03:25.320] say I've actually got to somewhere where you're going to have bad days, you're
[03:25.320 -> 03:29.960] gonna have really bad days, but broadly you sort of think you like who you are,
[03:29.960 -> 03:35.360] you like what you're doing, you like what's around you and I suppose that for
[03:35.360 -> 03:40.280] me is quite important. It's a mental place rather than a sort of a grades
[03:40.280 -> 03:44.600] place. Yeah, I think that some people think high performance isn't about that,
[03:44.600 -> 03:48.760] they think it's about success right, but what value does success carry if
[03:48.760 -> 03:53.040] you're not happy, if you don't have that inner peace that you've just spoken
[03:53.040 -> 03:57.180] about. So would you mind sharing with us how you got to that point, what the
[03:57.180 -> 04:00.600] journey looked like and perhaps some skills that you employ that other
[04:00.600 -> 04:07.480] people listen to this could. I think it's about working out for yourself
[04:08.760 -> 04:13.280] what's gonna result in you feeling like the day's gone well.
[04:13.280 -> 04:15.960] And it sounds really sort of silly,
[04:15.960 -> 04:19.440] but I did a job that I absolutely loved, right?
[04:19.440 -> 04:21.960] I worked at Newsnight, BBC Newsnight for 20 years
[04:21.960 -> 04:23.280] and I loved it.
[04:23.280 -> 04:24.560] And it was very satisfying,
[04:24.560 -> 04:29.760] like mentally challenging, intellectually, but it really took its toll on me. And it
[04:29.760 -> 04:36.360] took me a long time to admit that. There were times I was living off vodka and caffeine.
[04:36.360 -> 04:42.160] And it sounds crazy, but the one was to wake you up when you were too tired to think, and
[04:42.160 -> 04:47.280] the one was to send you to sleep when you were too wired to sleep. And
[04:47.280 -> 04:50.560] I just look back to that there was a sort of crazy period
[04:50.560 -> 04:57.440] I'd say around 2014 to maybe 2018 I was traveling a lot.
[04:57.440 -> 05:03.520] I was covering really traumatic events. I remember getting off a plane having
[05:03.520 -> 05:06.560] been on a sort of circuit campaign
[05:06.560 -> 05:11.600] following Donald Trump, you know, around sort of America in 2015. This was, you know, before he'd
[05:11.600 -> 05:17.680] been elected, before we even thought it was, you know, sort of a proper sort of chance. And I'd
[05:17.680 -> 05:25.040] done two weeks, literally, where you change beds every single night, you know, and you're flying internally
[05:25.040 -> 05:30.940] every single, you know, and you spend all your time in sort of aeroplane air that
[05:30.940 -> 05:34.340] you can't breathe, eating rubbish food, all the rest of it, and I came back and I
[05:34.340 -> 05:38.720] remember my phone had broken, and so you can't operate as a journalist without a
[05:38.720 -> 05:42.080] phone, right, it's just sort of rule number one, and I remember thinking, it was
[05:42.080 -> 05:47.020] Friday, and I was like, oh, shall I just leave it it for the weekend I'll just be completely switched off yeah it doesn't
[05:47.020 -> 05:51.240] matter be fine and then I just had this niggle and I was like no I've landed I'm
[05:51.240 -> 05:54.780] gonna go straight into BBC I'm gonna get somebody to check it out they gave me a
[05:54.780 -> 05:58.200] sort of you know replacement I've got something got the SIM card I was like
[05:58.200 -> 06:03.160] okay well fine I've done that but I'm not bloody switching that on and then
[06:03.160 -> 06:08.800] the Bataclan attacks in Paris kicked off. It was the 13th of November.
[06:08.800 -> 06:15.600] Remember that really well because it was Friday the 13th. And I remember hearing my phone
[06:16.880 -> 06:21.600] at two in the morning and just thinking, I can't deal with this. I literally haven't,
[06:21.600 -> 06:25.440] I don't even know what country I'm in, what bed I'm in, what city I'm in,
[06:25.440 -> 06:32.800] what time it is. My time zones are completely shot. And I literally sort of reached out,
[06:32.800 -> 06:37.520] I think I'd taken a sleeping pill as well, and just like shoved the phone under the heaviest book
[06:37.520 -> 06:41.840] I could find. It was about like war strategy, you know, a thousand page two. I was just like,
[06:41.840 -> 06:45.040] I'm just gonna sink whatever's happening there
[06:45.040 -> 06:46.300] and not deal with it.
[06:46.300 -> 06:47.620] And I just turned it off, you know,
[06:47.620 -> 06:49.600] it's just like, I couldn't deal with it.
[06:49.600 -> 06:50.840] And it kept ringing.
[06:50.840 -> 06:53.440] And at 6 a.m. I was like, okay,
[06:53.440 -> 06:55.560] there is something telling me to get up.
[06:55.560 -> 06:57.200] And it was my editor saying,
[06:57.200 -> 07:00.520] get on the next train, you know, to Paris.
[07:00.520 -> 07:02.600] And I remember asking this dreadful question,
[07:02.600 -> 07:05.100] which every journalist recognizes and no human asking this dreadful question, which every journalist recognizes
[07:05.100 -> 07:09.960] and no human being ever wants to ask, which is, how many?
[07:09.960 -> 07:18.740] And I was literally there, sort of going, am I making this choice depending on how big
[07:18.740 -> 07:23.500] the tragedy is? I don't want to start thinking like that. That's an appalling way to think,
[07:23.500 -> 07:26.920] but that, I think, reflects what I was sort of going through
[07:26.920 -> 07:28.080] physically and mentally.
[07:28.080 -> 07:29.000] I just couldn't deal.
[07:29.000 -> 07:31.320] I couldn't, I hadn't had a proper night's sleep.
[07:31.320 -> 07:32.680] I hadn't had my phone working.
[07:32.680 -> 07:34.600] I hadn't, you know, I'd been sort of,
[07:34.600 -> 07:37.320] I drugged myself to sleep and pulled myself awake,
[07:37.320 -> 07:38.800] and they just said, you know,
[07:38.800 -> 07:40.200] we think it's more than 100.
[07:40.200 -> 07:42.600] Get on the first train.
[07:42.600 -> 07:48.880] And you don't, you haven't really got time to think, right? So you just, I always
[07:48.880 -> 07:53.360] have a grab bag ready. The trouble was my grab bag had already been used because I'd been grabbing to
[07:53.360 -> 07:58.400] go to America. So I had to sort of start all over again, you know, where are you clean underwear,
[07:58.400 -> 08:08.400] where's the bits and pieces? And I remember getting on the Eurostar and an email came through and it was an advisory
[08:08.400 -> 08:13.960] and it was meant to be a really helpful advisory from the BBC and it said, anyone traveling
[08:13.960 -> 08:21.080] to Paris beware of an unmarked black Renault which is packed full of explosives and I was
[08:21.080 -> 08:25.520] like Jesus, it's unmarked, like, it's a black Renault.
[08:25.520 -> 08:31.160] Like, how, what am I, you know, and I remember thinking, that's not helpful, because, you
[08:31.160 -> 08:36.280] know, what, how can I be aware of an unmarked black Renault, you know, that might be full
[08:36.280 -> 08:37.280] of explosives?
[08:37.280 -> 08:42.440] And so all it does is sort of fuel your paranoia more and more and more, because you're going
[08:42.440 -> 08:48.680] towards this place that was still alive, that was still full of terrorists, that hadn't been tracked down, that had 130, I think it
[08:48.680 -> 08:54.480] was, dead by that stage. And you've still got to do a professional job, you know. And
[08:54.480 -> 09:09.280] so I think just having, recognizing just the toll that that is taking mentally on your head and on your body. And I remember, you know, sort of turning up sometimes
[09:09.280 -> 09:17.840] at vigils in the US. I did a lot of awful school shootings and, you know, gun crime events. And I
[09:17.840 -> 09:26.720] would turn up there and I'd go, right, is the vigil six or seven? And I thought, no one should know the pattern of a US school shooting
[09:26.720 -> 09:33.680] vigil that well, that they know it's either going to be six or seven. I don't want to know the
[09:33.680 -> 09:41.120] drill. That's not a drill I ever feel comfortable being able to kind of plan around. That's not the
[09:41.120 -> 09:44.560] person or the journalist I want to start off being. And so I realized I was getting into this
[09:44.000 -> 09:51.200] around. That's not the person or the journalist I wanted to start off being. And so I realized I was getting into this slight, you know, mindset where I was just covering trauma, almost like a really
[09:51.200 -> 09:55.280] normal thing. Okay, come on, I think the vigil will be at six, it might be at seven, but if it's
[09:55.280 -> 09:59.920] at seven, then we'll just get, you know, Starbucks first. You know, you don't actually want that to
[09:59.920 -> 10:07.320] be your mentality or your head. And of course, you know, the adrenaline of it and the sense
[10:07.320 -> 10:13.240] of a story well covered or an interview well done or a sense of being in the place and
[10:13.240 -> 10:18.380] hearing the voices of people and the tragedy that they were feeling. People telling you
[10:18.380 -> 10:22.880] their stories is very flattering, you know, it's very emotional and it's a sort of trusting
[10:22.880 -> 10:25.440] sense and so it's great in the sense that you think,
[10:25.440 -> 10:28.360] yes, I've delivered something back to base, I've done this.
[10:28.360 -> 10:34.320] But I'd be lying if I said it didn't actually take its toll in a sort of human way.
[10:34.320 -> 10:35.320] Yeah.
[10:35.320 -> 10:37.520] So what strategies have you learned, Emily,
[10:37.520 -> 10:43.840] that anybody here or listening to this would be able to adopt and employ,
[10:43.840 -> 10:50.760] to be able to keep that demarcation between a demanding job professionally and demanding challenges
[10:50.760 -> 10:55.240] outside of work? I've learned that you try and keep your promises to your kids
[10:55.240 -> 11:01.440] and I learned that the hard way because I, funny enough, I was just remembering
[11:01.440 -> 11:05.280] back because it's my son's birthday next week.
[11:05.640 -> 11:09.840] And when he was two, you know, baby, I got off of this shift.
[11:09.840 -> 11:11.280] I just thought I couldn't turn down.
[11:11.280 -> 11:14.440] I just started presenting and it was an amazing news night shift.
[11:14.440 -> 11:18.080] And I sort of threw him at my best friend and said, oh, you know,
[11:18.440 -> 11:21.520] because they had birthdays, you know, kids very similar birthdays.
[11:21.520 -> 11:22.600] I was like, can you take him?
[11:22.600 -> 11:24.400] You know, he'll be fine.
[11:24.400 -> 11:30.960] He's only two. He won't remember. And then I went on air. Well, it's sort of true, but you do, that's the trouble.
[11:30.960 -> 11:37.920] And I went on air and I did possibly the worst interview or the worst collection of interviews
[11:37.920 -> 11:48.040] I'd ever done. My head wasn't in the right place. I was really stressing about so many things. I felt I kind of undervalued his day and all the
[11:48.040 -> 11:54.000] rest of it. And actually, in the clear light of day, in the logic, you know, he's a darling boy,
[11:54.000 -> 11:58.480] and we get on really well, and he never comes around going, Oh, you weren't there for my second
[11:58.480 -> 12:07.360] birthday. But there's something about you trying to get your roles right that I think is really, really key to
[12:07.360 -> 12:11.600] that whole period. And sometimes it's not for the kids, it's for you. It's exactly
[12:11.600 -> 12:16.560] what you say, it's that sense of demarcation. And a few years later, I mean
[12:16.560 -> 12:22.200] well many years later, I think it was it was 2014, and I remember my editor called
[12:22.200 -> 12:26.120] me up and it was another one of these, like, can you like get that?
[12:26.120 -> 12:28.060] You know, sometimes it's really funny.
[12:28.060 -> 12:32.600] Sometimes at the BBC, you get an emailed plane ticket
[12:32.600 -> 12:35.120] before anyone's had a conversation with you.
[12:35.120 -> 12:37.400] So I'm not kidding, you're just kind of scrolling through.
[12:37.400 -> 12:41.000] You're like, oh gosh, I'm both on a plane to Glasgow.
[12:41.000 -> 12:43.160] I wonder when anyone was gonna say anything
[12:43.160 -> 12:51.360] or I'll say, oh look, oh, Hungary, Budapest. Anyway, this time it was about the refugee crisis and they said, there's a big
[12:51.360 -> 12:56.720] full sort of steam of a story gathering, a lot of refugees are arriving from Syria and Syrian war
[12:56.720 -> 13:01.920] in Hungary and Hungary's closed its railway station and it doesn't want to take them and
[13:01.920 -> 13:08.280] they're all building up on the concourse and they're trying to get to Germany and it was a really extraordinary and actually pretty emotional
[13:08.280 -> 13:12.840] story of people who had kind of left a war zone and were trying to get to what they thought was
[13:12.840 -> 13:19.160] the new Jerusalem, the sort of new promised land and my deputy editor said to me,
[13:19.160 -> 13:30.200] oh can you go and cover this story? I said to him, no, sadly, I've just booked a llama tour for my son's birthday,
[13:30.200 -> 13:32.000] and I've got the cousins coming.
[13:32.000 -> 13:33.760] He was really delicate with me.
[13:33.760 -> 13:40.200] He's like, yeah, do you think maybe the story is quite important?
[13:40.200 -> 13:42.640] We could find a way around it.
[13:42.640 -> 13:44.920] I was like, well, I have paid the deposit.
[13:44.920 -> 13:46.320] I don't know And I was like, well, I have paid the deposit.
[13:50.800 -> 13:56.880] I don't know what I was doing. I have paid the deposit and it's in Peterborough. So obviously, I've got to go up to Northampton. It's going to be quite complicated. And I now recognize
[13:56.880 -> 14:08.160] that actually what happens is there's a slight sort of vacuum hole in your brain, which takes you from the present, which is like,
[14:08.160 -> 14:14.160] oh, I've just booked a nice llama tour with my kids and their cousins, to, oh my God,
[14:14.160 -> 14:19.120] the biggest story in the world is kicking off on the border of Hungary. And you have this space
[14:19.120 -> 14:25.120] where that side of your brain hasn't quite computed that side of the brain. And so you end up
[14:25.120 -> 14:29.880] kind of sounding like complete Wally. Okay, no, can't cover that because I've paid the
[14:29.880 -> 14:35.240] deposit on the llamas. And then I remember my deputy head to Neil just went, I'll just
[14:35.240 -> 14:42.040] leave that with you a few moments. I'll come back in 15. And of course, I can't remember
[14:42.040 -> 14:48.640] what, normally for me, it's a run, it's something physical, just shakes it all out, kind of, you know.
[14:48.640 -> 14:53.760] And I suddenly went, yeah, I'm not about to give up that story, but I am going to get
[14:53.760 -> 14:55.440] back in time for the Llama farm.
[14:55.440 -> 15:01.960] And I did, I did, I did Hungary in sort of 48 hours, and then got to bed at two o'clock
[15:01.960 -> 15:08.220] that morning, woke up at 4.30 to catch a 6 a.m. flight home,
[15:09.480 -> 15:11.340] and you could not see me on that flight
[15:11.340 -> 15:15.540] because I just took a blanket and put it over my whole head
[15:15.540 -> 15:18.500] and just went, can't talk, can't think, can't breathe.
[15:18.500 -> 15:21.580] But it was really important to me,
[15:22.540 -> 15:26.600] on some level, to get back to that. And I'm not at all trying to set up, and I think this is really important to me, you know, on some level to get back to that. And I'm not at
[15:26.600 -> 15:29.680] all trying to set up, and I think this is really important, I'm not trying to set up
[15:29.680 -> 15:36.160] impossible standards because, again, it actually wouldn't have mattered if I'd missed the story.
[15:36.160 -> 15:39.740] There are plenty of other brilliant journalists that could have done it. And it wouldn't really
[15:39.740 -> 15:44.060] have mattered if I'd missed the llamas because there are plenty of other ways you can celebrate
[15:44.060 -> 15:47.260] a birthday and all the rest of it. But I'm just sort of taking
[15:47.260 -> 15:52.420] you through my mindset which was that at that point it felt really important that
[15:52.420 -> 15:57.820] I didn't lose track of the kind of things that were keeping me sane, the
[15:57.820 -> 16:01.940] continuity side of things. I actually think it's like it's a really valuable
[16:01.940 -> 16:09.160] thing to share because you know we talk often on this podcast about empathy over opinion and this breeds
[16:09.160 -> 16:11.900] empathy for the life that you've lived in the career that you've had and
[16:11.900 -> 16:15.840] actually the the opinion for most people would probably be look at Emily
[16:15.840 -> 16:25.640] Maitlis powerful glamorous well-read bright hard-working in control person do go on Jay. I mean, I don't want to I don't want to interrupt
[16:25.640 -> 16:28.040] I just think you know, we can fill a lot of air
[16:29.600 -> 16:31.600] That's only my opinion
[16:34.800 -> 16:36.800] Where was I
[16:37.320 -> 16:41.040] But actually the truth is that you know, we're all struggling we're all searching
[16:41.040 -> 16:45.080] We're all trying to find a way through and I think this conversation about you know
[16:45.080 -> 16:51.120] Doubt and imposter syndrome and fear and not knowing is a far more powerful conversation than actually just going on
[16:51.120 -> 16:54.080] Yeah, well, I find life easy, which none of us do that's the truth
[16:54.640 -> 17:00.480] So I'd like to fast forward to the moment. You got the call about you interview with Prince Andrew
[17:01.360 -> 17:06.080] What's the first thing you think about when you know that you're the person being charged
[17:06.080 -> 17:15.360] with arguably the most important royal interview in our lifetimes? It's four letters. Yeah.
[17:17.760 -> 17:29.960] You know, you can choose what it starts with, but that's the first thing that goes through your head. Right. So, just as I'm talking to you now, I can feel, I can feel my solar plexus and I can
[17:29.960 -> 17:30.960] feel the-
[17:30.960 -> 17:31.960] Can you remember that feeling?
[17:31.960 -> 17:32.960] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[17:32.960 -> 17:34.360] I mean, it's not a one-off.
[17:34.360 -> 17:41.000] It's every time somebody comes to you with, you know, an interview.
[17:41.000 -> 17:43.560] Where were you then when you found out about this one?
[17:43.560 -> 17:45.280] Well, it wasn't,
[17:45.280 -> 17:49.520] funny enough, it wasn't that I was told in that way because we had been part of
[17:49.520 -> 17:54.560] the bidding process. So right from the very beginning we had a brilliant sort
[17:54.560 -> 17:59.280] of team at Newsnight and we had gone for two possibly three visits to the
[17:59.280 -> 18:07.040] palace and the first time we'd met his advisor, his sort of assistant, and we kind of came out
[18:07.040 -> 18:09.200] and we were like, I think that went well.
[18:09.200 -> 18:11.600] You know when you can't quite tell, you're like, did that go well?
[18:11.600 -> 18:12.600] I think it went well.
[18:12.600 -> 18:13.600] Was it all right?
[18:13.600 -> 18:14.600] Does she like it?
[18:14.600 -> 18:17.600] And you replay each other's words like, oh, she liked it when you said that.
[18:17.600 -> 18:21.840] Oh, no, but she liked the bit where you said, oh, I think, are we okay?
[18:21.840 -> 18:24.340] Anyway, and then you're just playing a waiting game.
[18:24.340 -> 18:25.600] And to be honest,
[18:25.600 -> 18:29.440] there are so many interviews that don't come off, right? We're always bidding, you know,
[18:29.440 -> 18:34.200] bid for everyone, you bid for presidents and popes and God, you know, you just keep bidding
[18:34.200 -> 18:39.960] basically. And so it's never a surprise when something doesn't come off, because by then,
[18:39.960 -> 18:45.160] you've just had to realign and move on to the next thing. And so we kind of did it and
[18:45.160 -> 18:50.280] then there was a little pause and then we got invited back and at the point
[18:50.280 -> 18:56.200] where we were invited back I was like, okay this is quite serious. So can I just
[18:56.200 -> 18:59.320] jump in and ask, what's going on in your head? You know you said that four
[18:59.320 -> 19:06.240] letter word is your immediate gut response. Yeah. What
[19:02.640 -> 19:10.640] are you telling yourself? I'm fighting two
[19:06.240 -> 19:13.040] things. So sometimes you deceive your own
[19:10.640 -> 19:16.320] head, right? And I do it quite often. If I'm
[19:13.040 -> 19:17.920] scared of something, I go, oh no, I don't
[19:16.320 -> 19:18.960] I don't think it'd be very good. Oh no, I
[19:17.920 -> 19:20.960] don't think, I don't think it's that
[19:18.960 -> 19:23.240] important. Oh, I don't know, I don't think
[19:20.960 -> 19:25.600] it'll really work, you know. So instead of saying, how amazing,
[19:26.480 -> 19:33.200] you try and push it away and you go, oh, I know, I don't think it's what we do, I don't think I'd
[19:33.200 -> 19:38.160] be very good at it, I don't think that's for us, you know, you find ways of sort of excusing
[19:38.880 -> 19:50.960] the not doing it or the it not being a success. Oh, well, I don't think anyone was really expecting that, you know. So you're trying to put a little bit of insulation between you and failure, aren't you? Because the
[19:50.960 -> 19:56.880] alternative is that you say, I'm going to do that and I might screw it up, right? So instead of
[19:56.880 -> 20:02.880] admitting that to yourself, which is too big a thought in one go, you go, oh, I don't think
[20:02.880 -> 20:06.400] anyone would, no, I don't think we'd really miss that.
[20:07.280 -> 20:13.920] And the truth is, if we hadn't got it, no one would know. So you've always got that to hide
[20:13.920 -> 20:20.960] behind. No one knows, right, until you actually do it. But you're palpitating because you are
[20:20.960 -> 20:26.200] thinking, this could be the biggest thing I ever do, professionally, journalistically.
[20:26.200 -> 20:28.920] This could be the biggest thing I ever do.
[20:28.920 -> 20:31.120] And if it goes wrong,
[20:31.120 -> 20:34.140] it will be the worst thing I ever do.
[20:35.000 -> 20:36.600] And you never think,
[20:36.600 -> 20:38.640] this will be the best thing I ever do,
[20:38.640 -> 20:41.900] because that's not, I don't, that's not how I'm wired.
[20:41.900 -> 20:42.740] Right?
[20:42.740 -> 20:46.560] I think this has all the potential to be a car crash
[20:47.760 -> 20:49.760] which it was but
[20:51.400 -> 20:52.520] Not
[20:52.520 -> 20:56.760] Not necessarily in the way. Yeah, I was sort of thinking and so yes
[20:56.760 -> 21:01.120] I think you try and protect yourself from the fear by saying oh, you know
[21:01.960 -> 21:07.200] Lots of things going on. So that's the sort of neurological feeling, which is,
[21:07.200 -> 21:10.000] I'm really nervous, I'm really scared of this.
[21:10.000 -> 21:13.800] And that's when you need a brilliant team around you,
[21:13.800 -> 21:16.680] because your team is the person who says,
[21:16.680 -> 21:18.240] of course you're gonna knock it out the park,
[21:18.240 -> 21:19.600] of course it's gonna be brilliant,
[21:19.600 -> 21:22.520] and we're gonna get to that place, right?
[21:22.520 -> 21:24.560] And it's never you on your own.
[21:24.560 -> 21:26.400] It's brilliant camera people,
[21:26.400 -> 21:31.520] it's brilliant lighting, it's brilliant sound, it's the person who is role-playing with you
[21:31.520 -> 21:38.000] across the table, right? Who is being the prince, who is putting you through your paces. And I can
[21:38.000 -> 21:45.880] honestly tell you that my editor, Esme Wren, played that role and she was way tougher. I mean, I was terrified of her by
[21:45.880 -> 21:52.480] the end of our hour because she would push back at me in a really sort of hurtful, incisive
[21:52.480 -> 22:00.560] way that left me sort of stuttering. And actually, that's the next thing, isn't it? It's preparation.
[22:00.560 -> 22:06.500] You want to be so clear and just learn it in a funny way.
[22:06.500 -> 22:08.400] It's a weird word, but you know what I mean.
[22:08.400 -> 22:09.400] You want to know your dates.
[22:09.400 -> 22:10.600] How did you know what to learn though?
[22:10.600 -> 22:12.300] What was the focus of your preparation?
[22:12.300 -> 22:15.500] I went through every bit of research I could find.
[22:15.500 -> 22:19.900] So I treated it like a school project, right?
[22:19.900 -> 22:23.400] Type in the name, read everything that has been written,
[22:23.400 -> 22:25.640] watch every documentary, go
[22:25.640 -> 22:28.400] and follow all the different splits on the trees.
[22:28.400 -> 22:29.400] Who's that person?
[22:29.400 -> 22:30.400] Who's Stephanopoulos?
[22:30.400 -> 22:31.400] Who's that?
[22:31.400 -> 22:32.400] Who was at the party?
[22:32.400 -> 22:33.400] What were they doing?
[22:33.400 -> 22:34.400] Who's Virginia Dufresne?
[22:34.400 -> 22:35.960] How does, what's her connection to him?
[22:35.960 -> 22:37.160] What's their connection to them?
[22:37.160 -> 22:38.160] What's the date?
[22:38.160 -> 22:40.560] Why does it matter that that was Florida, not New York?
[22:40.560 -> 22:45.420] What's the difference between the jurisdiction in a Florida court versus, you know, a little
[22:45.420 -> 22:46.760] St. James Island?
[22:46.760 -> 22:51.320] You are trying to, again, insulate yourself from mistakes, right?
[22:51.320 -> 22:53.480] I want it to be word perfect.
[22:53.480 -> 22:57.640] I couldn't tell you those dates now, but if you'd asked me that, I would have done it
[22:57.640 -> 23:00.680] like a mastermind candidate, you know, contestant.
[23:00.680 -> 23:06.640] I would have said, no, that was 2017, not 2008, you know, or that
[23:06.640 -> 23:10.720] was the 18th birthday, not the 21st birthday. That was the time he went there. Sorry.
[23:10.720 -> 23:13.400] RRM No, no, I'm interested because I love the
[23:13.400 -> 23:18.960] depth of research you do. But before you start that, do you have an objective for that interview?
[23:18.960 -> 23:22.280] If you had to define what success would be for you?
[23:22.280 -> 23:25.860] AP It's a really simple objective actually which is that
[23:25.860 -> 23:31.360] you want to get the most out of your interview and out of your interviewee.
[23:31.360 -> 23:38.120] Right, it's as simple as that. So if I'm doing an interview that leaves people
[23:38.120 -> 23:49.780] confused, I've failed. Right, and if I'm doing an interview which has interrupted or cut somebody short or not got to
[23:49.780 -> 23:57.760] the bottom of something, I failed. And so the way we prepared for it was, I sort of think,
[23:57.760 -> 24:05.240] you know, in Lego, like when you're just freestyling Lego, you build your blocks. If I'm making
[24:05.240 -> 24:09.840] a house, you get your foundations in place. You don't just build one tower up,
[24:09.840 -> 24:14.120] right? Oh, I'm just going to follow this one thing I've learned until it topples
[24:14.120 -> 24:18.760] over. You go, first question, second question, third question, fourth. Where's
[24:18.760 -> 24:22.680] the bridge between that one? How am I building on that? And so there's a series,
[24:22.680 -> 24:26.440] if you go back and look at the interview I was just trying to get things
[24:27.000 -> 24:28.160] confirmed
[24:28.160 -> 24:30.160] So did you go there?
[24:30.800 -> 24:36.320] Did you go to the Manhattan house? Yes, I did. Did you go to the island? Yes, I did. Were you on the jet?
[24:36.320 -> 24:39.460] Yes, I did because if at any point the answer's no
[24:40.880 -> 24:45.720] Then ten questions you've got don't work. So if he'd suddenly said to me,
[24:45.720 -> 24:49.080] I was never in the house in Manhattan,
[24:49.080 -> 24:50.920] I was never in the Epstein house,
[24:50.920 -> 24:53.400] suddenly I'm thinking, oh blimey,
[24:53.400 -> 24:54.640] I've got to rethink that
[24:54.640 -> 24:56.740] and you've got to recalibrate really quickly.
[24:56.740 -> 25:00.840] So part of an interview is you explaining to the audience
[25:00.840 -> 25:02.180] what you're doing.
[25:02.180 -> 25:04.660] I'm just checking that I've got my facts right on that.
[25:04.660 -> 25:09.640] I'm checking I've got my facts right on that. Then you did that. Is that right? Yes. Then
[25:09.640 -> 25:17.560] I think it was 2018, you did whatever it is. And you're building the structure of the narrative
[25:17.560 -> 25:26.760] that everyone understands. So all that is not difficult stuff, but it is, it's slow. And if somebody had said at that
[25:26.760 -> 25:31.600] point, only you've only got five minutes, the whole thing would have been over because
[25:31.600 -> 25:36.580] I couldn't have ever got to a place where I was asking the bigger questions, you know,
[25:36.580 -> 25:41.400] the fundamental questions, the allegations that I was putting to him only worked once
[25:41.400 -> 25:45.680] you had the whole structure sort of solidly in place.
[25:45.680 -> 25:49.800] The value for people is really great here because it doesn't matter whether you're
[25:49.800 -> 25:53.160] interviewing a member of the royal family or you're focusing on a job or
[25:53.160 -> 25:57.640] something in your life that's important, you know, the attention to detail, finding
[25:57.640 -> 26:01.420] tools and ways of calming yourself, which is what you did, really important as well.
[26:01.420 -> 26:04.800] So you do all these things, you tell yourself it doesn't matter if you don't
[26:04.800 -> 26:07.700] get it but you still do get it and you do the deep
[26:07.700 -> 26:09.900] deep work which we should all be doing for things that we
[26:09.900 -> 26:10.900] really care about.
[26:11.800 -> 26:14.400] I'm sure you had some fear which is a great indicator that
[26:14.400 -> 26:15.800] this thing actually matters to you.
[26:15.800 -> 26:18.100] So you sit down with your producer and you work and work
[26:18.100 -> 26:19.900] to between you you've nailed it, right?
[26:20.500 -> 26:22.600] So there's very little I'm sure you could have done extra when
[26:22.600 -> 26:24.000] you walk through the doors of the palace.
[26:24.800 -> 26:25.080] Even so with all of that prep, please tell us how it felt to So there's very little I'm sure you could have done extra when you walked through the doors of the palace.
[26:25.080 -> 26:31.240] Even so, with all of that prep, please tell us how it felt to walk into that building.
[26:31.240 -> 26:32.240] Dreadful.
[26:32.240 -> 26:33.240] Dreadful, actually.
[26:33.240 -> 26:37.760] And here's a life secret, right?
[26:37.760 -> 26:41.600] I'm the most efficient packer I've ever met, right?
[26:41.600 -> 26:44.120] I love neat packing.
[26:44.120 -> 26:46.320] This is a detour, but I'm just going to give you an example
[26:46.320 -> 26:51.200] of this. I always travel with a little coffee pot, you know, like a stove top coffee pot.
[26:51.920 -> 26:57.200] And I was with my boys once in a little sort of beach place, very sort of low-key, really sweet,
[26:57.200 -> 27:03.200] and I put the coffee on the stove. You know, the morning, we got there late, put the coffee on the
[27:03.200 -> 27:07.600] stove to start the morning after, and the lid starts popping up and down, popping up and down.
[27:07.600 -> 27:09.800] And I'm like, oh, that's a bit weird. What's going on here?
[27:09.800 -> 27:12.600] And I see, because it's pressure from the thing,
[27:12.600 -> 27:20.600] I see this little red child's sock start to push the lid open.
[27:20.600 -> 27:23.600] And my boys are like, Mum, what have you done?
[27:23.600 -> 27:26.720] And I was like, sorry, I saw a cavity in the coffee pot.
[27:26.720 -> 27:31.480] And I just thought I'd put all your socks in the top so that I wouldn't waste any room
[27:31.480 -> 27:32.640] in the luggage, right?
[27:32.640 -> 27:35.840] They were literally, the socks were packed in the coffee pot and I forgot and then the
[27:35.840 -> 27:37.600] coffee started boiling the socks.
[27:37.600 -> 27:41.240] Not a great start to a holiday, either my coffee or their socks.
[27:41.240 -> 27:47.120] But I'm just saying, when I go on holiday, I'm very, very tight and tidy with my packing.
[27:47.120 -> 27:49.880] The morning I went to Buckingham Palace,
[27:49.880 -> 27:54.560] I had a bag so big of, what?
[27:54.560 -> 27:57.880] Extra jackets, extra shoes, extra trousers.
[27:57.880 -> 28:01.040] It was a slight reflection, I think,
[28:01.040 -> 28:03.600] of the state of my mind.
[28:03.600 -> 28:06.280] That I couldn't quite decide. I was
[28:06.280 -> 28:09.320] like what if I've got the wrong thing or what if I what if we have to go outside
[28:09.320 -> 28:12.840] or what if I'm you know it was almost too prepared instead of going in and
[28:12.840 -> 28:16.880] saying I'm very happy I'm very happy with what I've got on and that's fine I
[28:16.880 -> 28:20.680] was like I might spill coffee I might spill tea I might be sick. What did you
[28:20.680 -> 28:25.680] do to come out of this red brain? I hid in the loo.
[28:25.680 -> 28:26.180] Did you?
[28:26.180 -> 28:26.680] Yeah.
[28:26.680 -> 28:34.880] And I'm not really joking about that because the one thing I would say is that a good interview
[28:36.080 -> 28:43.440] is made in the five minute silence that you spend on your own before it. And I think that is
[28:45.880 -> 28:51.360] you spend on your own before it and I think that is golden time for me it's golden time and what do I mean by that that as soon as you're shown into a room
[28:51.360 -> 28:57.160] particularly an over-roaring room like a Buckingham Palace ballroom which was
[28:57.160 -> 29:01.600] where we were everything starts you know there's people kind of checking makeup
[29:01.600 -> 29:04.000] there's lights there's somebody micing you up there's people coming to shake
[29:04.000 -> 29:05.680] hands there's somebody who introduces themselves there's lights, there's somebody micing you up, there's people coming to shake hands, there's somebody who introduces themselves,
[29:05.680 -> 29:07.020] there's like, do you want to teach?
[29:07.020 -> 29:09.000] They're all lovely, it's all helpful,
[29:09.000 -> 29:13.100] but you lose your silence, right?
[29:13.100 -> 29:15.620] And actually at that point, you've got your game face on
[29:15.620 -> 29:16.640] and you go, oh, hello, lovely to meet you,
[29:16.640 -> 29:17.600] oh no, oh, that's kind of you,
[29:17.600 -> 29:19.480] oh no, I wouldn't, no sugar, you know,
[29:19.480 -> 29:22.080] you're starting to be somebody
[29:22.080 -> 29:26.760] that is sort of playing the social game, right? And I suddenly
[29:26.760 -> 29:31.600] realized that I just wasn't ready. I just wanted five minutes on my own. So I
[29:31.600 -> 29:36.800] excused myself and I just, I said, you know, is there a ladies? I mean it's not,
[29:36.800 -> 29:42.160] you know, a lady that's a Buckingham Palace loo. It's sort of amazing. And I
[29:42.160 -> 29:53.300] just locked the door and I remember just sort of sitting in the corner going, right, where's my head? How do I find clarity? How do I just let everything
[29:53.300 -> 29:58.500] go silent? I don't want to be saying hello, don't want to be shaking hands, don't want
[29:58.500 -> 30:04.260] to be fiddling around, don't want to be checking buttons. I just want to know where my head
[30:04.260 -> 30:07.120] is before I go in and do this interview.
[30:07.120 -> 30:08.800] What did you find?
[30:08.800 -> 30:16.320] You wait for a single note, that's what you do. And sometimes you just, you have this
[30:16.320 -> 30:23.280] blinding clarity, I can't explain it any other way, but you, you've got this fog of questions
[30:23.280 -> 30:26.720] in your head or on your sheets or your notes. You've
[30:26.720 -> 30:33.800] got like 30 questions and then you think, just like you've said, what's the question
[30:33.800 -> 30:40.560] that you're asking? What's the purpose? And we always say that in news with headlines.
[30:40.560 -> 30:50.600] If you can't write a headline in five, if you can't tell a story in sort of five words, it's probably not the right story. It's probably not the right headline. Once you've got the
[30:50.600 -> 30:58.360] clarity and that single note sound, which is like, what am I going in? I'm just going in to find out.
[30:58.360 -> 31:07.040] And that was the moment when I realized that the only role I had, you know, wasn't to trip up, it wasn't to confuse, it wasn't to...
[31:07.040 -> 31:15.760] I was the one person in the world at that point who could ask the questions that the women wanted
[31:15.760 -> 31:22.640] answering, right? That was all. And so actually, I found a place of relaxation because suddenly
[31:22.640 -> 31:26.400] you're just the conduit and you take your own mind out.
[31:26.400 -> 31:32.720] It's not my ego, it's not my questions, it's not I'm just trying to get to a place where the
[31:32.720 -> 31:37.680] questions that everyone has been asking, that have been ricocheting around the press and,
[31:37.680 -> 31:41.520] oh, why did he do that and what was that about and how did he go back and why was he still friends
[31:41.520 -> 31:45.000] and should he have known about the thing and blah.
[31:45.000 -> 31:52.000] That's all I had to do. I just had to be the cable that asked the questions and that was
[31:52.000 -> 31:53.240] what I was there to do.
[31:53.240 -> 31:57.880] So when the interview goes on then and it gets to where you've established the facts,
[31:57.880 -> 32:03.800] you've built the foundations, then you have to ask those saving questions. What was going
[32:03.800 -> 32:05.760] on there? Was it still the process of just
[32:05.760 -> 32:10.740] asking the question or did you have a pause for thoughts or maybe check
[32:10.740 -> 32:17.340] yourself and go, do I dare to go in with this? You're listening so hard because
[32:17.340 -> 32:22.940] the trouble with questions is if you're not careful you're sticking to them,
[32:22.940 -> 32:27.040] right? And as you both know, sometimes
[32:27.040 -> 32:34.960] that's the worst thing you can do because you miss what they've just said, right? So the most
[32:36.240 -> 32:45.580] essential bit of that whole process is your ear. Like, has he just told me that? That takes bravery though, doesn't it?
[32:45.580 -> 32:53.800] I think the whole thing takes a different mindset, which is, do I know what I'm trying
[32:53.800 -> 33:01.320] to ask here? And it's not that you're not asking the questions that you want answered,
[33:01.320 -> 33:05.160] but you are listening. And there were certain points in the interview
[33:05.160 -> 33:10.880] where I thought, oh that's interesting, oh gosh, I wasn't expecting that, you know
[33:10.880 -> 33:16.560] just little phrases that we used which told a whole story in themselves.
[33:16.560 -> 33:26.240] Like what, for example? Like when he said he'd been too honorable, right? That was one of the phrases he used.
[33:26.340 -> 33:28.840] I said, why didn't you tell Epstein
[33:28.940 -> 33:31.680] after he was convicted of pedophilia
[33:31.780 -> 33:34.680] that you couldn't maintain a friendship with him?
[33:34.780 -> 33:36.680] And he said, I went to his house.
[33:36.780 -> 33:38.380] Maybe that was wrong, but I...
[33:38.480 -> 33:40.420] Maybe I was too honorable.
[33:40.920 -> 33:42.760] And I just thought, oh...
[33:43.660 -> 33:48.320] that's gonna strike a really weird note. I'm not sure that's going
[33:48.320 -> 33:54.400] to sound how he wants it to sound. And so that was one. And then there was another point
[33:54.400 -> 33:59.840] where he talked about, I said, didn't you hold a party for, you know, Glenn Maxwell?
[33:59.840 -> 34:05.520] And he went, no. And I thought, oh my God, I've got this wrong. Because I had my notes and
[34:05.520 -> 34:09.280] I checked and I'd done all the research. I was like, no, my research is crumbling.
[34:09.280 -> 34:12.320] And then he looked up and he went, it was a straightforward shooting weekend.
[34:13.040 -> 34:20.240] And that was the point where I just thought, we're, but I get it. We're on different
[34:21.120 -> 34:26.960] sort of visions of reality here. Because he meant, like for him a party is 500
[34:26.960 -> 34:32.000] people, you know, it's a ball. And the straightforward shooting weekend
[34:32.000 -> 34:35.240] was kind of 16 people staying in a country house.
[34:35.240 -> 34:50.040] He's not going watching llamas is he? Right. It's just, I mean, it's, and I, the trouble is, I totally got it. I got the fact that within his context, that
[34:50.040 -> 34:55.880] was totally different, right? But it didn't mean that when I'd said there was a party,
[34:55.880 -> 35:01.720] I was wrong. It just meant that, you know, for me, a house party with 20 people is quite
[35:01.720 -> 35:06.160] a big deal, right? For him, if it's fewer than 500, that's not a
[35:06.160 -> 35:11.840] party. And so it was just sort of recalibrating, kind of understanding that genuinely from his own
[35:12.640 -> 35:19.360] position, from his own exalted, very different childhood, he came at things very differently.
[35:19.360 -> 35:25.800] And so there were just those moments where I had to sort of just tweak my brain a bit and understand
[35:25.800 -> 35:31.280] that he was, he thought he was, you know, he was clarifying and he was but it's
[35:31.280 -> 35:37.680] there were just these odd turns of phrase, yeah. So let's talk about the
[35:37.680 -> 35:40.840] reaction then to the interview because I think that in the modern era,
[35:40.840 -> 35:49.560] particularly in the social media era, the interviewer is as under the microscope as much as the interviewee. So the interview comes out
[35:49.560 -> 35:55.280] and I'd love to know how you react to other people reacting to your work, you
[35:55.280 -> 36:00.640] know, how are you with scrutiny and all that sort of stuff?
[36:00.640 -> 36:09.280] It went out on Saturday night and I had my friends staying and we always do a run to
[36:09.280 -> 36:12.780] Q. We do a long 10-mile run.
[36:12.780 -> 36:17.680] And so next morning, Sunday morning, we got up and did our river run.
[36:17.680 -> 36:19.800] And she said, oh, God, we got to talk about this.
[36:19.800 -> 36:20.800] We got to talk about this.
[36:20.800 -> 36:22.920] And I was like, no, I don't actually.
[36:22.920 -> 36:23.920] I don't want to.
[36:23.920 -> 36:27.280] I was really happy with it. It was all fine. It had nice feedback, but I just didn't want to talk about this and I was like, no, I don't actually, I don't want to. I was really happy with it, it was all fine, it had nice
[36:27.280 -> 36:30.800] feedback but I didn't, I just didn't want to talk about it. I was like, no,
[36:30.800 -> 36:34.880] when I'm panicking about something, then I want to talk, right? My running
[36:34.880 -> 36:37.440] chats are really important because they help me
[36:37.440 -> 36:40.800] sort out my head and my brain and oh I don't understand this, am I getting this
[36:40.800 -> 36:44.240] wrong? Once I've done something, I'm like, yeah,
[36:44.240 -> 36:45.120] let that go. I was
[36:45.120 -> 36:51.360] very happy to let it go. And I remember we ran all the way and then we got to our little coffee shop,
[36:51.360 -> 36:56.240] you know, stop for coffee, and just a couple of people said, oh, like the interview. But that was
[36:56.240 -> 37:02.240] it. And so I actually came away thinking, oh, that's, it was actually quite quiet. It's sort of,
[37:02.240 -> 37:05.760] it's all been quite quiet, you know. I hadn't seen any of the...
[37:05.760 -> 37:11.440] And then obviously the press over the next few days just kind of took off. I think I'd
[37:11.440 -> 37:20.080] expected it to be a quieter landing in a way. And you are under the microscope, of course
[37:20.080 -> 37:26.560] you are. But I think at that point, I was happy with the job we'd done.
[37:26.560 -> 37:32.280] And I also knew that they had been, we'd been very careful each step of the way that we
[37:32.280 -> 37:36.880] were including the palace, you know, and his team in what we were doing, what time it was
[37:36.880 -> 37:43.240] going out, checking after it had gone out, you know, were they happy. And so we felt
[37:43.240 -> 37:45.040] there hadn't been any ambush, you know,
[37:45.040 -> 37:48.480] there hadn't been any moment where it was like, oh, just slip that one out. It had all
[37:48.480 -> 37:55.120] been done rigorously in accordance with what they knew was happening. And so actually,
[37:55.120 -> 37:59.640] I sort of walked away from the noise at that point because I sort of thought, yeah, you
[37:59.640 -> 38:05.920] know what, I'm going back to the start. In my head, I'm happy with that. I was fair. They knew what
[38:05.920 -> 38:17.040] we were doing. No code of honor was broken. And so it was fine, actually. And I think
[38:17.040 -> 38:25.820] it was good. But I think going back to your question, what we've seen now, and it's really interesting on interviews like Andrew
[38:25.820 -> 38:32.960] Tate recently on the BBC or Elon Musk who also did the BBC, that there is no
[38:32.960 -> 38:39.420] automatic authority for the journalist. And what do I mean by that? That in the
[38:39.420 -> 38:44.720] halcyon days, you know, in the olden times, you go with your cameras and your mics
[38:44.720 -> 38:45.560] and you've got your platform and you are the sort of authoritative, you know, in the olden times, you go with your cameras and your mics and you've
[38:45.560 -> 38:50.320] got your platform and you are the sort of authoritative, you know, I'm the journalist,
[38:50.320 -> 38:56.000] I'm the broadcaster and I'm interviewing you. And now, particularly, you know, Elon Musk,
[38:56.000 -> 39:01.560] right? He's got his own platform. So as soon as he does an interview, he whacks it out,
[39:01.560 -> 39:06.480] right? So there is no sense of the journalist dominating the interview.
[39:07.280 -> 39:12.320] Same with Andrew Tate, he recorded the whole thing, he puts it out to his, you know,
[39:12.320 -> 39:20.160] what is it, 8 million or 16 million, you know. So you as a journalist feel seriously scrutinized
[39:20.160 -> 39:30.000] because you are their interviewee just as they are your interviewee and I think that does change the whole dynamic, it makes it very tense
[39:30.000 -> 39:34.760] actually. Well it levels the playing field. It does. So can we ask you about you as a
[39:34.760 -> 39:39.120] journalist now as opposed to a BBC journalist because you've made the
[39:39.120 -> 39:44.160] decision to walk away from the institution, that seems like quite a
[39:44.160 -> 39:45.520] brave move, it seems
[39:45.520 -> 39:48.080] like it would have almost been a bit of a comfort blanket to have been
[39:48.080 -> 39:52.240] surrounded by that. Would you tell us a little bit about your decision to do
[39:52.240 -> 40:02.120] that? I think I don't really believe in a job for life actually and I mean great
[40:02.120 -> 40:05.400] if it works, you know, great if you're happy.
[40:05.400 -> 40:10.400] I'm not saying that everyone has to change job, but actually, for me, I've done 20 years.
[40:10.400 -> 40:16.900] And that's a long, it's a big chunk of your life, you know, in one place, on one show.
[40:16.900 -> 40:23.200] And particularly a show, you know, as I mentioned, that doesn't get you to bed before one in the morning.
[40:23.200 -> 40:25.440] You know, I was raising kids, going to bed at one,
[40:26.160 -> 40:32.080] getting up, getting the kids off to school at 6.37, then running, then having to catch up on
[40:32.080 -> 40:38.320] everything for the day and then start all over again. And it does take its toll actually on your
[40:38.320 -> 40:47.000] body and on your brain. And I think I decided that 20 years was enough, or going to be enough.
[40:47.000 -> 40:52.000] And then actually what happened was, I'm just obsessed by US politics.
[40:52.000 -> 40:58.000] And we had the best, like most extraordinary election, you know, of 2020 in the US,
[40:58.000 -> 41:02.000] where it was the COVID election, Biden versus Trump,
[41:02.000 -> 41:09.600] and then Trump wouldn't acknowledge that he'd lost, and then he brought all the lawsuits, and then we had the whole thing with the hair dye, and the
[41:09.600 -> 41:15.480] garden center, and the press conferences, and then it culminated in the January the
[41:15.480 -> 41:22.080] 6th riots. It was an attempt to overturn democracy. And actually, the idea that I would leave
[41:22.080 -> 41:26.640] during that whole period was just crazy. And so I kept on staying for the next
[41:26.640 -> 41:31.080] bit and the next bit of the story. It's like not being able to sort of walk away from the story.
[41:31.080 -> 41:51.320] And so I suppose really it was once we got to the yeah, now it's probably time to, you know,
[41:51.320 -> 41:59.680] look for the next thing. And I don't linger on goodbyes. I've noticed that about myself,
[41:59.680 -> 42:05.840] you know, that I'm not somebody who, if I say I'm going,
[42:07.880 -> 42:09.240] my friend always says I'm terrible at parties because I have this sort of like,
[42:09.240 -> 42:12.200] quit while you're ahead, just go enjoy it
[42:12.200 -> 42:13.800] and then just get out.
[42:13.800 -> 42:15.720] So I don't, unlike my mum,
[42:15.720 -> 42:18.580] my mum says goodbye and she's still there an hour later,
[42:18.580 -> 42:20.700] normally with exactly the same person
[42:20.700 -> 42:22.280] that she's just said goodbye to.
[42:22.280 -> 42:24.320] And there's nothing more frustrating than going,
[42:24.320 -> 42:28.080] mum, I think we've done, I think we're, you know, I think they're trying to,
[42:28.720 -> 42:29.840] they booked us a cab.
[42:29.840 -> 42:34.000] Matthew – The people who don't say goodbye at parties say five years over the course of their
[42:34.000 -> 42:36.160] lifetime saying goodbye to people.
[42:36.160 -> 42:38.400] Melita – Is that right? What am I going to do with that?
[42:38.400 -> 42:39.920] Matthew – What you've done with it?
[42:39.920 -> 42:42.080] Melita – Fill my coffee pot with socks probably.
[42:42.080 -> 42:48.160] I'm not big on nostalgia. So once the decision was made, and it really helped me that I was
[42:48.160 -> 42:53.000] leaving with mates, right? So we always describe it as a sort of Thelma and Louise moment,
[42:53.000 -> 42:59.200] you know, I mean, without, hopefully, they're, you know, kind of suicide. But, you know,
[42:59.200 -> 43:07.720] fingers crossed. But we, we left in what felt like a fast car with the roof down and our hair blowing in the wind.
[43:07.720 -> 43:14.760] And there was something quite exhilarating about that, you know, because we weren't leaving out of, you know,
[43:14.760 -> 43:18.480] anger or umbrage or even, you know, boredom or anything.
[43:18.480 -> 43:23.920] We were leaving because we were like, I think we've got a plan here, you know.
[43:23.920 -> 43:26.760] And yeah, I've got that thing again,
[43:26.760 -> 43:27.880] when I sort of talk, I'm like,
[43:27.880 -> 43:30.280] oh my God, this could all have gone,
[43:30.280 -> 43:33.160] you know, belly up, could have gone really badly wrong,
[43:33.160 -> 43:34.880] but we thought we had a plan.
[43:34.880 -> 43:37.720] And actually, you have to be prepared to fail, right?
[43:37.720 -> 43:39.440] You have to be prepared to fail.
[43:39.440 -> 43:41.360] And if I had failed at that point
[43:41.360 -> 43:43.200] with what we want to do next,
[43:44.440 -> 43:45.520] I like to think I would have
[43:45.520 -> 43:50.600] gone, I had great successes, I had great stuff, I wrote a book, I did the interview,
[43:50.600 -> 43:55.320] I you know did stuff, let's see what comes next. But I think it was really
[43:55.320 -> 44:00.280] helpful for me to know that yeah I'm going towards something, I didn't ever
[44:00.280 -> 44:04.640] feel like I was walking away, I wanted to walk towards it. Yeah in many ways
[44:04.640 -> 44:07.520] signifies a lot of your career, like incredible bravery,
[44:07.520 -> 44:11.120] just making sure there's that small comfort blanket of having, in this case,
[44:11.120 -> 44:14.000] someone with you, but you know, doing the preparation, all those other things,
[44:14.000 -> 44:18.240] you always looked for something just to give you that little parachute if you needed it.
[44:18.240 -> 44:22.320] But journalism is very team, you know, it's very team-orientated. So I suppose that is,
[44:22.880 -> 44:28.200] that's really key to how it's very easy to be brave when you've got, you know,
[44:28.200 -> 44:31.520] people that are helping you,
[44:31.520 -> 44:33.320] quietly taking the mickey, you know.
[44:33.320 -> 44:34.160] Yeah, yeah.
[44:34.160 -> 44:35.000] Absolutely.
[44:35.000 -> 44:36.280] Sadly, we're just about out of time,
[44:36.280 -> 44:37.960] but we'd just like to very quickly run through
[44:37.960 -> 44:39.360] our quickfire questions with you.
[44:39.360 -> 44:40.520] Oh no.
[44:40.520 -> 44:44.320] Three non-negotiables that you and the people around you
[44:44.320 -> 44:45.280] need to buy into.
[44:45.280 -> 44:48.080] I don't like diva behavior.
[44:48.080 -> 44:49.600] No divas, okay.
[44:49.600 -> 44:52.720] I hate people telling me to relax.
[44:52.720 -> 44:53.720] Okay.
[44:53.720 -> 44:59.680] I hate that because it normally means that they're not doing something that they probably
[44:59.680 -> 45:00.680] should be doing.
[45:00.680 -> 45:01.680] Yes.
[45:01.680 -> 45:04.520] And the third thing is I hate lateness.
[45:04.520 -> 45:07.160] I'm very punctual generally and
[45:07.160 -> 45:11.760] I had a boyfriend who reminded me years after we broke up that I had a 15
[45:11.760 -> 45:16.720] minute rule and if he was 15 minutes late I'd just gone. So rather than get
[45:16.720 -> 45:21.680] angry or shout or grump or anything I just go and again I've saved a lot of
[45:21.680 -> 45:28.000] time not waiting for people. What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received?
[45:28.000 -> 45:32.000] Ask for things, particularly for women.
[45:32.000 -> 45:35.000] There's this great line, I'm going to quote Catelyn Moran, who says,
[45:35.000 -> 45:39.000] from the Bible, the meek shall inherit the earth.
[45:39.000 -> 45:43.000] And then she puts in block capitals, women, this does not apply to you.
[45:43.000 -> 45:46.760] And it's such a good piece because
[45:46.760 -> 45:50.400] you know a lot of women in their professional lives sort of think that
[45:50.400 -> 45:53.640] they'll just be recognized, you know, oh it must be my turn, it must be my turn.
[45:53.640 -> 45:57.000] They don't realize that all the blokes in the room are going up and sort of
[45:57.000 -> 46:00.520] going, can I have that? Can you send me there? Can I cover that story? And
[46:00.520 -> 46:05.920] actually be the person that is prepared to ask for things because otherwise they never
[46:05.920 -> 46:09.440] know that you want them, right? So I'd say that's been really helpful to me.
[46:09.440 -> 46:14.200] Brilliant. And does that tie in with the question, what one piece of advice would you give to
[46:14.200 -> 46:17.480] a young Emily just starting out her career?
[46:17.480 -> 46:26.320] Well the thing I'd give to like any teenager, anyone starting out actually is learn a language. Put in the time when you're 14, even if it feels
[46:26.320 -> 46:32.280] boring and frustrating and embarrassing, you will never regret that, you know, it
[46:32.280 -> 46:36.680] opens the world to you. So I'd say, yeah, learn a language. It's the thing I'm
[46:36.680 -> 46:43.720] weirdly most proud of for myself that I've, that I can open my mouth and blurt
[46:43.720 -> 46:46.720] things out and not feel embarrassed about that.
[46:46.720 -> 46:52.200] I like that. And the final question Emily is what's your one golden rule to
[46:52.200 -> 47:01.080] live a high-performance life? Get enough sleep. Yeah, don't shortchange yourself on
[47:01.080 -> 47:06.560] sleep. For me it's sleep and exercise and the other thing I'd say is on your days off I
[47:07.260 -> 47:10.220] Stay in my gym kit because I get so much more done
[47:10.380 -> 47:15.240] So if I don't have to put my work clothes on I run around in trainers
[47:15.240 -> 47:18.820] I run around in you know swimming kit gym kit. I get more done
[47:20.340 -> 47:22.580] You never get invited anywhere, but that's why
[47:23.760 -> 47:25.200] No problem.
[47:25.200 -> 47:28.200] You leave early anyway, so it doesn't matter.
[47:28.200 -> 47:30.880] Look, honestly, thank you so much for that.
[47:30.880 -> 47:32.000] We could have spoken for hours.
[47:32.000 -> 47:36.680] I think for people who, like the whole world does, from the outside, have an opinion of
[47:36.680 -> 47:40.760] you and your job and the life you've lived, you know, to hear actually the strains and
[47:40.760 -> 47:44.560] the stresses, to hear the detail that you go to, to hear what it's like in the public
[47:44.560 -> 47:48.840] eye when an interview like that comes out, but then also to understand a bit
[47:48.840 -> 47:54.000] about a really brave decision to walk away from the BBC, which let's all be honest, 20
[47:54.000 -> 47:58.340] years ago, nobody did, maybe even five years ago, nobody did it. So a really, really interesting
[47:58.340 -> 48:01.880] insight and we can't thank you enough for sharing that with the high performance audience.
[48:01.880 -> 48:06.000] Emily Maitlis, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.
[48:06.000 -> 48:08.000] Thank you very much.
[48:12.000 -> 48:14.000] Damien. Jay.
[48:14.000 -> 48:16.000] Well, I loved that conversation. I think
[48:16.000 -> 48:18.000] the thousand people sitting
[48:18.000 -> 48:20.000] in the room watching us have that conversation did
[48:20.000 -> 48:22.000] as well and I really hope that the audience that have listened
[48:22.000 -> 48:24.000] to it here on high performance
[48:24.000 -> 48:25.920] take some real value from that. I thought it was so rich. I wish it ac rwy'n gobeithio iawn bod y cymdeithas sydd wedi clywed ato yma ar y cyfrifoldeb cyhoeddiol yn cymryd rhai gwirioneddol o hynny.
[48:25.920 -> 48:30.240] Rwy'n meddwl oedd hi'n mor ddifrifol, rwy'n gobeithio y gallai wedi mynd ymlaen i llawer o awr mwyaf, Jake.
[48:30.240 -> 48:34.240] Rwy'n mwynhau'r cynghoriadau hynny o, ydych chi'n gwybod,
[48:34.240 -> 48:37.440] gan gael pobl yn ymwneud â'r pŵer y mae hi'n ei ddysgrifio,
[48:37.440 -> 48:42.000] yn siarad am y ffordd ffreneticol o adroddiad i ddewis diwydiant bywyd newydd
[48:42.000 -> 48:49.560] a sut roedd hi'n rhaid iddo gydbwysu bod yn mam, ar yr un pryd fel bod yn gynghorwyr cyfroliadwy. of responding to changing world events and how she was having to balance being a mother at the same time as being a leading journalist. I think it was an
[48:49.560 -> 48:54.040] insight that we often don't get to see when you just see the headlines on the
[48:54.040 -> 48:57.880] news channels. I liked her honesty you know when she spoke about how covering
[48:57.880 -> 49:02.280] traumatic events altered her perception of traumatic events I think many people
[49:02.280 -> 49:09.660] in her position would be too nervous to say I got to the point where I went to a school shooting and I sort of blase
[49:09.660 -> 49:13.140] when is it six or seven let's go and get a Starbucks I think society these days
[49:13.140 -> 49:17.220] is so judgmental that most people wouldn't even say that that's actually
[49:17.220 -> 49:20.860] how they're how they were thinking at a time but I think it's really great that
[49:20.860 -> 49:23.820] she comes and says that stuff because the truth is that we are affected by the
[49:23.820 -> 49:28.040] things around us we do alter the way we operate and live and act dependent
[49:28.040 -> 49:33.320] upon our job or our circumstances or the people in our lives, our colleagues, our partners.
[49:33.320 -> 49:36.760] And it's a really good reminder that if it can happen to her, and that's a very extreme
[49:36.760 -> 49:41.060] example, you know, maybe everyone should just look at their life and say, am I still acting
[49:41.060 -> 49:45.740] in a way that is right for me and that aligns to my values as a human being?
[49:45.740 -> 49:48.540] And if I'm not, why am I not and what should I change to make sure I am?
[49:48.540 -> 49:49.780] That's a brilliant point.
[49:49.780 -> 49:54.820] There's a famous social psychologist called Kurt Lewin that has a simple formula for this.
[49:54.820 -> 50:00.820] He says, our function or our behavior is a product of both our personality and the environment
[50:00.820 -> 50:01.900] that we're surrounded by.
[50:01.900 -> 50:05.000] So you might be saying, well, my nghyfrif yw rhywun sy'n ddifrifol
[50:05.000 -> 50:06.920] ac yn ymdrech a'n deall,
[50:06.920 -> 50:09.920] ond mae'r amgylchedd o fynd i'r
[50:09.920 -> 50:11.440] ffumilau ar gyfer ymchwil ysgol,
[50:11.440 -> 50:14.160] un ar y un, fel y mae Emily wedi'u hanfod,
[50:14.160 -> 50:16.080] yna dechrau i ddewis fy mhobl hynny
[50:16.080 -> 50:18.760] i ddod yn fwyaf yn gofio neu'n rhannu
[50:18.760 -> 50:20.720] ac yn ystod ddod yn fwy ffwngsi'n.
[50:20.720 -> 50:23.200] Ac rwy'n credu pan ydyn ni weithio'n gwybod
[50:23.200 -> 50:25.000] bod ein amgylchedd yn ein ffyned yn ein gwneud i ni'r holl amser,
[50:25.000 -> 50:32.000] mae'n rhaid i ni weithio ar y meyrffaen a gwneud yn siŵr ein bod yn rhoi'n fomentau arni.
[50:32.000 -> 50:35.000] Ac yr un a ddod o hyd i mi oedd ei gwrthdysg amser golau,
[50:35.000 -> 50:38.000] cyn i gyd wedi gwneud y cyfrifiad arall oedd y Prince Andrew ar y Palais,
[50:38.000 -> 50:43.000] lle roedd y meyrffaen yma yn ffrenedig, roedd llawer o bobl yn gwneud cymorth,
[50:43.000 -> 50:45.200] ac ystyried ei alluogi o'r meyrffaen hwnnw i ddewis y breath, She was in was frenetic. There was lots of people making demands and she decided to remove herself from that environment
[50:45.840 -> 50:49.120] to take a deep breath to give herself a pause and
[50:49.920 -> 50:53.760] Clear her head and make sure that she could do the best job. She was capable of I
[50:54.360 -> 50:57.760] Also really sort of resonated with the idea of preparation
[50:57.760 -> 51:03.440] And I think that if she hadn't fully prepared for that interview with Prince Andrew like the minutest of details
[51:03.440 -> 51:07.220] We're running it through with her producer again and again going over in her head again and
[51:07.220 -> 51:11.140] again then she wouldn't know it well enough to be able to deviate and to
[51:11.140 -> 51:14.260] probe and to press and to explore with him because she knows she can always
[51:14.260 -> 51:17.100] come back to the facts and I just think there's a good lesson for anyone
[51:17.100 -> 51:20.780] listening to this it's like you might really want to explore you might really
[51:20.780 -> 51:24.460] want to be brave at home or at work or in some part of your life well the best
[51:24.460 -> 51:27.960] way to do that is actually to rigidly prepare
[51:28.340 -> 51:30.820] So you're then able to do that like there's line
[51:30.820 -> 51:33.880] I'm right and the the younger people listen to this won't know who he is
[51:33.880 -> 51:40.060] But a lot of people will like the sort of doyen of sports broadcasting when I was growing up like a legendary sports broadcaster
[51:40.460 -> 51:46.800] he would go off script and enjoy the process of being on the television And I think it really brought the viewer in to what he was doing and
[51:48.080 -> 51:50.800] Having been lucky enough to chat to him on a few occasions
[51:50.920 -> 51:54.120] The reason he was able to do that was because he was fastidiously prepared
[51:54.380 -> 52:00.760] So he knew what he was doing everything was planned and prepared so then he could be brave and he could explore and I would just
[52:00.760 -> 52:09.520] Encourage people prepare so that you can explore. I love that. I think that's a really powerful message that Des taught you and that Emily's taught me
[52:09.520 -> 52:11.240] and hopefully our listeners today.
[52:11.240 -> 52:12.240] Thanks a lot Damo.
[52:12.240 -> 52:13.240] Thanks mate.
[52:13.240 -> 52:18.080] Well, as always, thank you so much for coming to these Leadership Conversations in association
[52:18.080 -> 52:19.360] with PWC.
[52:19.360 -> 52:24.680] This is the last in the series, so I'd just like to finish this episode by of course thanking
[52:24.680 -> 52:29.240] all of the guests who've joined us for these conversations. Steve Hare, the CEO of
[52:29.240 -> 52:34.360] Sage, Tessa Clark who runs the Oleo sharing app, entrepreneur Timothy Armou
[52:34.360 -> 52:39.800] and finally TV and podcast host Emily Maitlis. I just hope that you have
[52:39.800 -> 52:43.080] realized that there's so much more to these people than perhaps meets the eye
[52:43.080 -> 52:49.120] and that actually that is so indicative of life. PwC, thanks for the partnership, thanks
[52:49.120 -> 52:51.440] for the continued belief in high performance, thank you for all you're
[52:51.440 -> 52:55.400] doing to build a high-performance team yourselves and of course we'll see you
[52:55.400 -> None] very soon for another episode of the High Performance Podcast. you you