E205 - Timo Armoo: How you can play the game by your own rules

This is the third episode of our new Leadership Series, sponsored by PwC, in which we will be diving deep into what it really takes to be a CEO.

Timo Armoo is an entrepreneur, speaker and co-founder of Fanbytes, a social media and marketing agency. Timo founded Fanbytes at age 21 whilst in university, eventually selling at aged 27 for an eight figure exit. In this conversation, we delve deep into Timo’s entrepreneurial mind, exploring what makes a great business idea, finding a core purpose and knowing when a good opportunity arises.

They discuss how his upbringing in Ghana, and then his teenage years in South West London, influenced his career. Timo shares the impact small wins can have, how to carefully choose your team and how he has “never had an original idea”.

Thank you to PwC for sponsoring this special CEO Series. PwC’s purpose is to build trust and solve important problems, and their global strategy - The New Equation - is bringing this to life for their clients, people and society. By combining technology with human ingenuity, passion and experience, PwC works with organisations to deliver more intelligent, sustained outcomes.

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**Navigating the Entrepreneurial Journey: From Tutoring Ventures to Multi-Million Dollar Exits**

In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, Jay Comfrey engages in a captivating conversation with entrepreneur Timo Armoo, co-founder of Fanbytes, a social media and marketing agency. Timo's entrepreneurial journey is marked by remarkable successes, insightful failures, and a unique perspective on identifying and seizing opportunities.

**From Tutoring to Media Empire: The Genesis of Timo's Entrepreneurial Spirit**

Timo's entrepreneurial journey began at the tender age of 14 when he launched a tutoring company, connecting tutors with students. This venture taught him the importance of owning the infrastructure and not relying solely on connecting parties. This lesson paved the way for his next venture, Entrepreneur Express, an online business publication that gained traction through creative marketing strategies.

**The Power of Small Wins and Embracing Failure**

Timo emphasizes the significance of small wins in fueling entrepreneurial motivation. These early successes, such as securing interviews with prominent business leaders, provided validation and encouraged him to pursue bigger goals. He also acknowledges the role of failures in shaping his entrepreneurial mindset, viewing them as opportunities for learning and growth.

**Finding Inspiration in Others: The Art of Adapting and Innovating**

Timo's approach to entrepreneurship is characterized by his ability to identify successful models in other industries and adapt them to his own ventures. He believes that there are no truly original ideas, and that the key lies in recognizing patterns and applying them creatively. This approach allowed him to identify the potential of influencer marketing for Gen Z audiences, leading to the success of Fanbytes.

**The Importance of Simplicity and Focus**

Timo highlights the power of simplicity in business. He emphasizes the effectiveness of focusing on a specific niche and avoiding the trap of building large sales teams. Instead, he advocates for leveraging marketing and content creation to attract clients. This approach not only proved successful for Fanbytes but also aligns with his belief in the importance of adaptability and innovation.

**The Illusion of Superiority and the Game of Status**

Timo reflects on the prevalence of a superiority complex among successful individuals, including himself. He recognizes that this mindset can be a driving force for achievement but also cautions against becoming enslaved to the status game. He emphasizes the importance of avoiding the pursuit of external validation and focusing on personal growth and fulfillment.

**Entrepreneurship as a Vehicle for Personal Growth and Happiness**

Timo challenges the notion that entrepreneurship is the ultimate path to happiness. He asserts that any business should serve as a tool for personal growth and fulfillment, rather than becoming a source of stress and anxiety. He encourages entrepreneurs to prioritize their happiness and avoid getting caught up in the pursuit of status and external validation.

**Key Takeaways**

* Embrace small wins and failures as stepping stones to success.
* Identify successful models in other industries and adapt them creatively.
* Focus on simplicity and avoid the trap of building large sales teams.
* Resist the allure of the status game and prioritize personal growth and happiness.
* View entrepreneurship as a vehicle for personal growth and fulfillment, not as the ultimate goal.

# CEO Series: Timo Armoo, Co-Founder of Fanbytes

## Summary

In this episode of the Leadership Series, sponsored by PwC, we delve into the entrepreneurial journey of Timo Armoo, co-founder of Fanbytes, a social media and marketing agency. Timo shares his insights on building a successful business, the importance of choosing the right team, and the challenges and rewards of being a CEO.

## Key Points

- Timo emphasizes the importance of understanding the core purpose of a business and aligning it with personal values. He believes that a business should serve as a vehicle to enhance personal happiness and fulfillment, rather than becoming a source of stress and servitude.

- Timo highlights the significance of selecting the right co-founders and team members. He stresses the need for open communication, shared values, and complementary skills to create a cohesive and effective team.

- Timo reflects on his fundraising experiences, emphasizing the importance of approaching investors from a position of strength and avoiding situations where the entrepreneur is in a weak or desperate position. He underscores the value of building a strong business foundation before seeking external funding.

- Timo discusses the concept of trust in business relationships. He emphasizes the importance of assuming positive intent in others, rather than harboring suspicion or negativity. He believes that this approach fosters a more collaborative and productive work environment.

- Timo shares his experience of selling Fanbytes for tens of millions of pounds. He describes the emotional journey of witnessing the numbers on paper, receiving the funds, and eventually coming to terms with the life-changing event. He highlights the importance of maintaining perspective and recognizing that happiness is not solely dependent on financial success.

- Timo reflects on the impact of his upbringing and cultural background on his entrepreneurial journey. He acknowledges the influence of his Ghanaian heritage and his teenage years in South West London in shaping his work ethic, resilience, and approach to business.

- Timo offers valuable advice to aspiring entrepreneurs, emphasizing the importance of learning from the experiences of others, seeking out mentors, and developing a strong network of support. He encourages entrepreneurs to embrace challenges, take calculated risks, and never give up on their dreams.

## Conclusion

Timo Armoo's entrepreneurial journey is a testament to the power of perseverance, adaptability, and surrounding oneself with the right people. His emphasis on aligning business goals with personal values, fostering a culture of trust, and embracing a lifelong learning mindset serves as valuable guidance for aspiring leaders and entrepreneurs.

In this episode of the "High Performance" podcast, sponsored by PwC, host Jake Humphrey and Damien Hughes engage in a captivating conversation with Timo Armoo, an entrepreneur and co-founder of Fanbytes, a social media and marketing agency. Timo shares his insights on leadership, business success, and personal growth.

Timo emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with talented individuals who possess expertise in areas where one may lack knowledge. He believes in the collective power of a team and the value of collaboration. Reflecting on his upbringing in Ghana and teenage years in South West London, Timo highlights the impact of small wins and the significance of carefully selecting team members.

Timo challenges the conventional wisdom of striving for legacy, arguing that focusing on immediate impact and living life to the fullest is more meaningful. He emphasizes the importance of setting personal standards and constantly challenging oneself to achieve more, rather than seeking validation from others.

Timo's entrepreneurial journey has been marked by a willingness to explore and embrace new opportunities. He believes that true success lies in identifying and capitalizing on opportunities that align with one's passions and values. Timo stresses the importance of surrounding oneself with successful and interesting people, as he believes that the collective energy and knowledge of such individuals can lead to remarkable achievements.

The episode concludes with Timo's advice for listeners to set personal standards and continuously strive to surpass them. He emphasizes the importance of living life according to one's own values and not seeking validation from others. Timo's message is a powerful reminder to embrace exploration, challenge oneself, and live life with purpose.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.420] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the
[00:05.420 -> 00:10.460] minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jay Comfrey, and alongside
[00:10.460 -> 00:16.100] Professor Damian Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes, and struggles of our guests,
[00:16.100 -> 00:21.900] allowing us to explore, be challenged, and to grow. Here's what's coming up today.
[00:21.900 -> 00:22.900] Damian Hughes
[00:22.900 -> 00:27.000] A lot of successful people have a superiority complex.
[00:27.000 -> 00:30.000] And I have that. And I also had that when I was young.
[00:30.000 -> 00:33.000] I was like, I believe I am better than my surroundings.
[00:33.000 -> 00:36.000] I believe I'm better than my environment.
[00:36.000 -> 00:39.000] I can be bigger than where I am now.
[00:41.000 -> 00:45.000] Any business is a vehicle to serve you, right?
[00:45.000 -> 00:47.000] Not to serve other people.
[00:47.000 -> 00:50.000] It's to serve you, to make you more happy,
[00:50.000 -> 00:54.000] make you more, you know, like, give you income to provide for your family.
[00:54.000 -> 00:56.000] Like, it's a vehicle for you.
[00:56.000 -> 00:59.000] The moment that you move to becoming almost like a slave to your business
[00:59.000 -> 01:03.000] because you're playing someone else's game on how much to fundraise,
[01:03.000 -> 01:06.720] how big your team is, how big your office is, how many press articles you have,
[01:06.720 -> 01:10.040] that's the time that you've actually just lost the game.
[01:11.160 -> 01:13.760] Don't get involved in the status game.
[01:13.760 -> 01:16.040] Because the moment that you get involved in the status game,
[01:16.040 -> 01:18.320] every day of your life, you would be like,
[01:18.320 -> 01:20.960] oh, well, they've got more than me, they've got more than me.
[01:20.960 -> 01:23.880] And it's such a bullshit way to live your life.
[01:23.880 -> 01:26.560] So today we
[01:24.380 -> 01:27.800] welcome Timothy Armu to High
[01:26.560 -> 01:30.720] Performance. This is part of our
[01:27.800 -> 01:32.400] leadership series with PWC and we talk
[01:30.720 -> 01:34.400] often on this podcast about this sense
[01:32.400 -> 01:36.840] of delaying our happiness, of people
[01:34.400 -> 01:38.480] waiting for a moment in their life where
[01:36.840 -> 01:40.440] suddenly everything's great and they
[01:38.480 -> 01:42.400] no longer have problems. Well you're about
[01:40.440 -> 01:44.840] to hear a conversation with a young
[01:42.400 -> 01:46.600] entrepreneur who sold his business for
[01:44.840 -> 01:49.280] millions and as he will share with you, it doesn't mean the game is over.
[01:49.280 -> 01:55.320] Timo may well be on level 2 or level 25 of this game of life, but the truth is there
[01:55.320 -> 01:59.640] are infinite levels to this game and I think it's a really important conversation to have
[01:59.640 -> 02:03.120] in a world where people are constantly chasing something.
[02:03.120 -> 02:04.120] So let's get to it then.
[02:04.120 -> 02:09.720] The latest episode from our leadership series in association with PWC and the reason we wanted to work
[02:09.720 -> 02:15.240] with PWC on these episodes is that they as a business align to our beliefs of building
[02:15.240 -> 02:26.120] culture of strong sympathetic empathetic leadership and putting society at the heart of the world in which we live. So let's do it then. Entrepreneur
[02:26.120 -> 02:33.740] Timo Amu on high performance.
[02:33.740 -> 02:34.740] Welcome to the show.
[02:34.740 -> 02:36.940] Thanks for having me. That's what everyone starts with.
[02:36.940 -> 02:37.940] Thanks for having me.
[02:37.940 -> 02:39.740] No, do it again.
[02:39.740 -> 02:40.740] Welcome to the show.
[02:40.740 -> 02:41.740] Let's roll.
[02:41.740 -> 02:47.760] There you go. What is your definition of high performance? I think it's two things.
[02:47.760 -> 02:53.880] I think it's one, holding yourself to a higher standard. I think that is a very
[02:53.880 -> 02:59.760] important thing. And then also having a sense of how good could you be. Like I've
[02:59.760 -> 03:05.640] always said this, if someone was to ask me to write a book and I was to write a book about my
[03:05.640 -> 03:11.040] own life, it would be just called, How Good Could You Be? And I think high performance
[03:11.040 -> 03:16.560] is like constantly asking yourself the question, how good could you be? How could you stretch
[03:16.560 -> 03:20.520] yourself? How could you push yourself? So that would probably be kind of my two pronged
[03:20.520 -> 03:22.320] definition of high performance.
[03:22.320 -> 03:24.440] So who was asking you that question?
[03:24.440 -> 03:30.480] Myself. Even when you were seven, eight, nine years old? Yeah I think, so I grew up in
[03:30.480 -> 03:34.760] Ghana, like my first ten years were in Ghana and I think I had what I'd call
[03:34.760 -> 03:41.880] harsh love. My grandma was very much kind of, you can do this, you can be the best
[03:41.880 -> 03:45.880] and then it moved to my mum when I came to London,
[03:45.880 -> 03:50.960] she was very much like, you are the best, just like keep going, keep doing whatever
[03:50.960 -> 03:54.960] that you're doing, just like keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing. And so I think
[03:54.960 -> 04:01.120] that I constantly had this sense of how good could you be? Could you be as good a
[04:01.120 -> 04:05.000] marketer as you think you are? Could you be a good entrepreneur as you think you are? Could you be a good entrepreneur as
[04:05.000 -> 04:08.840] you think you are? Could you be a good public speaker as you think you are? So
[04:08.840 -> 04:12.920] just like constantly asking yourself that question, I think it started off
[04:12.920 -> 04:18.440] externally and then it became almost like an internal dialogue which
[04:18.440 -> 04:22.120] worked, I guess. So that's an interesting observation that there are two questions
[04:22.120 -> 04:28.900] that you can recognise were really effective. they just worked. Why did they work? What did it do for you?
[04:28.900 -> 04:35.240] They offered me a kind of steer towards whether I was getting to the end goal
[04:35.240 -> 04:40.160] that I wanted to, right? Because I think for a lot of people, they kind of start
[04:40.160 -> 04:46.440] off things and they're just stuck in this inertia, where it's like, I'm just doing this thing
[04:46.440 -> 04:47.800] to just do this thing.
[04:47.800 -> 04:50.640] And I just keep going on at the tempo
[04:50.640 -> 04:52.720] and the pace that I'm used to.
[04:52.720 -> 04:55.280] And constantly asking yourself this question of like,
[04:55.280 -> 04:56.760] how good could you be?
[04:56.760 -> 04:59.080] It's quite a good way to almost be like,
[04:59.080 -> 05:02.200] well, is this the best pace that I can go?
[05:02.200 -> 05:04.840] Is this how fast I can learn this thing?
[05:04.840 -> 05:06.600] Is this the skills that I should go? Is this how fast I can learn this thing? Is this the skills
[05:06.600 -> 05:11.640] that I should be getting at this point? And so when I ask myself that question a
[05:11.640 -> 05:19.560] lot, I tend to question myself as to well, am I really giving it everything or has
[05:19.560 -> 05:22.620] because I've been doing this for the last I don't know two, three months or
[05:22.620 -> 05:29.240] two, three years meant that I've just kind of got caught in this meh wave, right? Just kind of, yeah,
[05:29.240 -> 05:33.720] things are going fine, things are going well. So that's what it does to me, to just almost
[05:33.720 -> 05:35.640] jolt me every single time.
[05:35.640 -> 05:40.680] So let's talk about specifics then, because I think so many people now are fed this dream
[05:40.680 -> 05:48.000] of entrepreneurship, be your own boss, follow your passion, find your thing, sell it for millions, retire, be happy, everything's great.
[05:48.000 -> 05:54.200] So the first question is, how did you know that what you were doing was the right thing?
[05:54.200 -> 05:58.600] One of the things that's interesting is like, I didn't always want to become an entrepreneur.
[05:58.600 -> 06:06.760] I actually did a TED talk about this and like, at some point I wanted to be a magician. And at some point I wanted to be a magician and at some point I wanted to be a
[06:07.520 -> 06:10.280] journalist and at some point I wanted to be like a
[06:10.800 -> 06:17.840] behavioral economist like I had several different times that I wanted to do something different
[06:18.400 -> 06:22.060] Until when I was like younger around like 15 16
[06:22.060 -> 06:26.320] I was like, oh my god, like this is actually what I want to do with my life.
[06:26.320 -> 06:28.600] And that was because at 17,
[06:28.600 -> 06:31.080] I had like built and sold a small business.
[06:31.080 -> 06:34.480] And I was like, oh my God, like this is like magic.
[06:34.480 -> 06:35.880] I kind of think about something,
[06:35.880 -> 06:38.880] I put it out into the world, someone pays me for it.
[06:38.880 -> 06:39.720] What was that business?
[06:39.720 -> 06:42.480] So that company was called Entrepreneur Express.
[06:42.480 -> 06:46.360] And basically it was like an online business publication.
[06:46.360 -> 06:52.280] But it started off with me just like interviewing business people but was an online blog.
[06:52.280 -> 06:57.080] And the way I drove traffic through it was by creating really large Facebook pages, you
[06:57.080 -> 07:01.960] know, about inspiration and motivation, like Tony Robbins quotes, Gary V quotes, and I
[07:01.960 -> 07:05.600] take blogs and I take posts from my blog put
[07:05.600 -> 07:09.800] in the Facebook pages and that would drive a ton of traffic back to the site.
[07:09.800 -> 07:15.760] That got bought around after 11 months that got bought by this American company
[07:15.760 -> 07:20.100] now known as Horizon Media so they're like quite a big ad agency but they
[07:20.100 -> 07:28.780] started off as being just like a media brand. And the idea basically that I had like started off this idea
[07:28.780 -> 07:30.440] I had started off and thought,
[07:30.440 -> 07:31.260] do you know what would be cool?
[07:31.260 -> 07:33.600] Like to build a business media publication.
[07:33.600 -> 07:35.800] And then I had figured out how to get eyeballs to it,
[07:35.800 -> 07:37.160] how to monetize it.
[07:37.160 -> 07:40.080] And then 11 months afterwards,
[07:40.080 -> 07:42.640] like me, a random kid in South London,
[07:42.640 -> 07:45.440] some dude who is in America had basically be like,
[07:45.440 -> 07:47.760] yo, we'd like to pay you for this.
[07:47.760 -> 07:49.520] And the money at that point wasn't a lot.
[07:49.520 -> 07:51.280] It was like 110 grand.
[07:51.280 -> 07:53.440] But the idea that in 11 months,
[07:53.440 -> 07:56.560] I had thought about something and then I like magicked it.
[07:56.560 -> 07:59.040] And someone had basically said, yo, here's money for it.
[07:59.040 -> 08:02.480] I was like, yeah, man, like, this is my life.
[08:03.200 -> 08:04.400] I'm gonna commit to this.
[08:04.400 -> 08:07.460] And like, that was how the whole entrepreneurship thing
[08:07.460 -> 08:13.600] I really came in not so much at six years old. I decided this is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life
[08:14.160 -> 08:19.560] but if we can go back just two steps before you set up this business at 16 because
[08:19.840 -> 08:28.000] There's lots of kids that might be doing like business studies projects at school and things like that and it's local or they're selling to family and friends.
[08:28.000 -> 08:39.000] I'm interested in where you had the inspiration to take an idea and actually put it out into the real world and try to monetize it.
[08:39.000 -> 08:49.080] So Entrepreneur Express was my first like major, but it was not my first company. So I started my first kind of money-making project at 14,
[08:49.080 -> 08:50.880] which was a tutoring company.
[08:50.880 -> 08:53.120] And I was basically the middleman
[08:53.120 -> 08:56.080] connecting tutors to students.
[08:56.080 -> 08:59.200] And I started off teaching people maths,
[08:59.200 -> 09:01.200] then I grew this network of people
[09:01.200 -> 09:04.000] who basically could teach chemistry, biology,
[09:04.000 -> 09:04.840] physics, blah, blah, blah,
[09:04.840 -> 09:09.680] because I was not the best person for that. So the hack that I used was I'd go to my school
[09:09.680 -> 09:15.920] and I just ask the teachers, hey, in the last test that you did, who got the best grades?
[09:15.920 -> 09:19.840] And then they'll just tell me, then I'll just go to those students and I just say, hey,
[09:19.840 -> 09:27.800] do you want to make some money? And so the whole business model was like 15 pound an hour, which was quite cheap for tutoring.
[09:27.800 -> 09:31.640] I would basically connect them 15 pound an hour,
[09:31.640 -> 09:33.920] I'll take five pounds, they'll keep 10 pounds.
[09:33.920 -> 09:36.080] Now, how does that actually lead on
[09:36.080 -> 09:38.560] to the whole Entrepreneur Express story
[09:38.560 -> 09:41.800] was that grew relatively quickly.
[09:41.800 -> 09:45.000] We got it to 65 tutors in six weeks
[09:45.480 -> 09:48.280] and I was just the connector, basically.
[09:48.280 -> 09:50.800] And then what happened as with any kind of
[09:50.800 -> 09:54.680] tutor style business is when you connect the tutors
[09:54.680 -> 09:57.800] to the students, once they've made that connection,
[09:57.800 -> 10:00.840] you're not really needed that much, right?
[10:00.840 -> 10:03.560] And so what happened was I noticed that my cart
[10:03.560 -> 10:08.200] was just getting like smaller and smaller and smaller, but what it taught me was like, okay, you need to own the infrastructure, right? And so what happened was I noticed that my cut was just getting like smaller and smaller and smaller, but what it taught me was like, okay, you need
[10:08.200 -> 10:12.400] to own the infrastructure, right? So rather than just connecting the two, how
[10:12.400 -> 10:15.640] can you build something where you like own the payment, own the distribution,
[10:15.640 -> 10:20.120] like own everything so people can't then go behind you. And so I then was
[10:20.120 -> 10:24.640] thinking, oh, well actually I should have a business where like I am the
[10:24.640 -> 10:29.480] infrastructure. So Entrepreneur Express was quite a good example of like, I own
[10:29.480 -> 10:33.920] the media, I was the media brand. And I'd seen, you know, by that time, I think
[10:34.200 -> 10:38.280] business insider was quite popular. Entrepreneur.com was quite popular. So
[10:38.280 -> 10:43.600] I was like, well, they're doing something and it's, and it's working. So I should
[10:43.600 -> 10:46.720] just do this for this particular niche. And
[10:46.720 -> 10:53.600] then from then it was just a bunch of like small wins like how I got to interview Richard
[10:53.600 -> 11:00.120] Branton. I basically found my way behind the door. There was a guy who was hosting this
[11:00.120 -> 11:07.440] big conference and Branton, Alan Sugar, James Kahn were all speaking. And so I basically
[11:07.440 -> 11:11.540] was like, well, I need to figure out a way to get in there. And I didn't have a press
[11:11.540 -> 11:15.800] pass or anything like that. So then I basically emailed him and I said, hey, if I come the
[11:15.800 -> 11:21.060] day before and I just like lay out all the chairs for you, would you give me a behind
[11:21.060 -> 11:25.760] the scenes pass? And he said, yeah, of course. That was how I got to interview Branson,
[11:25.760 -> 11:27.480] that story I put on the blog
[11:27.480 -> 11:29.320] that drove a shit ton of traffic.
[11:29.320 -> 11:30.160] Like, you know what I mean?
[11:30.160 -> 11:34.360] So I think, so you asked about how did I know?
[11:34.360 -> 11:36.000] I think it was three things.
[11:36.000 -> 11:38.120] Number one, because the tutoring company
[11:38.120 -> 11:39.760] had ended in that way,
[11:39.760 -> 11:42.560] it kind of gave me the framework for the next thing.
[11:42.560 -> 11:45.160] Number two, I had seen companies
[11:45.160 -> 11:49.720] like Business Insider, entrepreneur.com, ing.com. I was like, oh, well, they're doing it at
[11:49.720 -> 11:54.520] scale. Surely that means there's an opportunity there. And then I think the
[11:54.520 -> 12:00.680] third thing was I had a bunch of like small wins, which indicated that I could
[12:00.680 -> 12:04.240] be the sort of person who could do something bigger, right? Those sort of
[12:04.240 -> 12:06.040] frameworks and that sort of like,
[12:06.040 -> 12:10.120] past success dictates to some degree future results,
[12:10.120 -> 12:12.840] meant that it didn't feel unnatural to me.
[12:12.840 -> 12:14.840] I was just like, oh, easy peasy.
[12:14.840 -> 12:17.560] But there's a really intriguing bit on this that,
[12:17.560 -> 12:21.800] that we've asked other guests that started businesses at a young age like yourself.
[12:21.800 -> 12:24.960] So when we spoke to Ben Francis with Gymshark or
[12:24.960 -> 12:30.100] Ben Towers who set up his own business at 12, what messages were you
[12:30.100 -> 12:36.020] receiving from home? So I had both an advantage and a disadvantage. The
[12:36.020 -> 12:40.860] disadvantage was that my parents didn't understand what I was doing and the
[12:40.860 -> 12:51.000] advantage is that my parents didn't understand what I was doing. So the disadvantage, you know, which meant like they couldn't kind of give any advice or any kind of support.
[12:51.000 -> 12:53.200] It was just like, okay, yeah, do your thing.
[12:53.200 -> 12:57.800] And the advantage was the fact that because they didn't understand what I was doing,
[12:57.800 -> 13:03.600] it felt very much kind of like, well, you know, as long as he's not going to jail, you know.
[13:03.600 -> 13:05.560] When I sold Entrepreneur Express
[13:05.560 -> 13:07.800] and like the first payment was 70 grand
[13:07.800 -> 13:11.040] and then within 12 months, the other 40,
[13:11.040 -> 13:13.680] I remember the day that I had the 70 grand
[13:13.680 -> 13:16.120] and I just like showed my dad, I was like,
[13:16.120 -> 13:19.000] and he was just kind of like, what?
[13:19.000 -> 13:21.080] You know, like, what are you doing?
[13:21.080 -> 13:23.880] Right, cause like, I grew up in like
[13:23.880 -> 13:25.700] what people call the end, right? So like Oak and Road in like what people call the ends right? So like
[13:26.320 -> 13:32.360] Oak and Road during the time where there was all that beef going on between like Oak and Road, Peckham, Brixton. To him
[13:32.360 -> 13:37.200] he knew I was spending a lot of time online. He just didn't understand like what I was doing
[13:37.200 -> 13:41.000] he just knew it was stuff and at that time I had gone to
[13:41.760 -> 13:49.300] sixth form I'd found my way into a boarding school. So like to him I was just doing stuff right and then one day I come back and I'm
[13:49.300 -> 13:54.100] like ta-da money! So I think for him he didn't quite understand but obviously
[13:54.100 -> 13:57.500] you know once I told him that I wasn't like a pimp or anything like that he was
[13:57.500 -> 14:01.300] like yeah okay cool. And how's the boarding school thing unfolded because obviously
[14:01.300 -> 14:07.560] most young kids like you from the ends don't end up going to a boarding school. So I got a scholarship to the boarding school.
[14:07.560 -> 14:13.480] Driven by you or your parents were pushing that or your teachers? So between year 7 and
[14:13.480 -> 14:18.640] year 11 I went to a secondary school like a state school right called City of
[14:18.640 -> 14:24.680] London like very basic school right by the way that's like City of London Academy
[14:24.680 -> 14:25.820] not City of London Boys not City of London Boys
[14:25.820 -> 14:29.820] City of London Boys is an extremely good private school I did not have that
[14:29.820 -> 14:35.540] luxury and then for sixth form I basically was like I'm smart and so
[14:35.540 -> 14:40.080] therefore I should go to where the smart people hang out and to me it was like
[14:40.080 -> 14:46.560] well private school boarding school so what I did was I applied for four private schools
[14:46.560 -> 14:49.600] and one of them was Christ Hospital.
[14:49.600 -> 14:51.040] That was a boarding school.
[14:51.040 -> 14:52.960] The reason I chose that was because of two things.
[14:52.960 -> 14:57.400] Number one, I wanted to get out of my environment.
[14:57.400 -> 14:59.600] There's kind of this whole sense that like,
[14:59.600 -> 15:02.480] and I find this when talking to so many of my friends,
[15:02.480 -> 15:05.320] which is like a lot of successful people
[15:05.320 -> 15:07.600] have a superiority complex.
[15:07.600 -> 15:11.240] They believe they are better than other people.
[15:11.240 -> 15:12.200] And I have that.
[15:12.200 -> 15:14.480] And I also had that when I was young.
[15:14.480 -> 15:17.920] I was like, I believe I am better than my surroundings.
[15:17.920 -> 15:20.440] I believe I'm better than my environment.
[15:20.440 -> 15:24.760] And so therefore I must get out of this environment,
[15:24.760 -> 15:26.880] which shows that like I'm better.
[15:26.880 -> 15:30.680] So that was a big driving function to go to Christ Hospital
[15:30.680 -> 15:35.480] was almost like, well, I can be bigger than where I am now.
[15:35.480 -> 15:37.200] For anyone who knows Christ Hospital,
[15:37.200 -> 15:40.800] it's kind of 16th century gowns.
[15:40.800 -> 15:44.000] Like you march into lunch every single day,
[15:44.840 -> 15:46.480] just Harry Potter
[15:46.480 -> 15:52.880] basically. It's like Hogwarts on earth. And was there any inferiority complex at that point,
[15:52.880 -> 15:57.400] having had a superiority complex, when you found yourself there? Yes, and then
[15:57.400 -> 16:01.480] that then turned into a superiority complex. Oh, explain that, that sounds
[16:01.480 -> 16:05.360] interesting. I had an inferiority complex because the people at Christ Hospital,
[16:05.360 -> 16:07.920] a lot of them were like insanely clever.
[16:07.920 -> 16:15.200] Doing like further maths A level at 15, you know, like Oxbridge ready at 14.
[16:15.200 -> 16:18.160] I was just like, all right, you guys are playing a whole different game.
[16:18.160 -> 16:21.120] So I thought I'd come into this game being the smarty pants.
[16:21.680 -> 16:24.560] And I realized that you guys are the fucking smarty pants, right?
[16:24.560 -> 16:25.680] And so that had me
[16:25.680 -> 16:31.120] thinking I said all right what game can I play and what game can I win that was when I then thought
[16:31.120 -> 16:36.640] do you know what all of you guys have been kind of like coached to get into Oxbridge, study the
[16:36.640 -> 16:41.760] papers, do all that stuff I'm going to play a different game and that game was a game of business
[16:41.760 -> 16:47.360] you guys don't have that kind of like doggedness, that kind of like figure it out ability.
[16:47.360 -> 16:51.080] And so there's no coincidence that Entrepreneur Express
[16:51.080 -> 16:54.240] was like started when I was in sixth form
[16:54.240 -> 16:57.920] because it was like, okay, look, I'm gonna get the grades.
[16:57.920 -> 16:59.520] I know I'll get the grades,
[16:59.520 -> 17:02.080] but I also know that in these two years,
[17:02.080 -> 17:04.720] I don't care about winning the game of like,
[17:04.720 -> 17:06.660] who is the smartest person, but I do care about in these two years, I don't care about winning the game of like who is the smartest person,
[17:06.660 -> 17:09.060] but I do care about winning a different game,
[17:09.060 -> 17:10.440] which is the game of business
[17:10.440 -> 17:12.860] and the game of entrepreneurship.
[17:12.860 -> 17:15.720] And so that was a key driving function
[17:15.720 -> 17:20.040] between behind kind of really get into business then.
[17:20.040 -> 17:21.720] I mean, even in Crafts Hospital, man,
[17:21.720 -> 17:23.460] there was like so many things that I did,
[17:23.460 -> 17:25.360] which were just like entrepreneurial things. So I launched something called in Christ Hospital, man, there was like so many things that I did, which were just like
[17:27.640 -> 17:28.240] Entrepreneurial things so I launched something called
[17:33.480 -> 17:39.080] CH speaks Christ Hospital speaks, which is basically like a public speaking competition It was the first time that had ever been done. I launched a new kind of form of a debate club
[17:39.080 -> 17:42.600] There were so many things that I did which were just like I am
[17:42.840 -> 17:45.100] Entrepreneurial and you guys can't even think about it because all you guys want to do is like stay in your rooms were just like, I am entrepreneurial and you guys can't even think about it
[17:45.100 -> 17:48.000] because all you guys want to do is like stay in your rooms
[17:48.000 -> 17:49.500] and just like study.
[17:49.500 -> 17:51.500] That's what I mean by it started off as like
[17:51.500 -> 17:55.200] an inferiority complex and then like went to a superiority complex.
[17:55.200 -> 17:57.700] So I was like, okay, I feel inferior in this game,
[17:57.700 -> 18:00.100] but I'm going to absolutely dominate in this other game.
[18:00.100 -> 18:02.500] Oh my, what an interesting story, hey?
[18:02.500 -> 18:03.900] It's incredible.
[18:03.900 -> 18:07.720] And the bit that really sort of jumps out for me is how
[18:07.920 -> 18:12.600] important it was that from where you grow into school and you've got this sense of
[18:13.320 -> 18:17.960] superiority that you think I'm playing a bigger game than what anybody else around me is.
[18:18.180 -> 18:25.680] How did others react to that? Because our peer group, our environment can often shape us for good and for bad reasons.
[18:25.680 -> 18:26.180] Yeah.
[18:26.560 -> 18:30.400] And I'm interested in how others reacted and how you immunize yourself
[18:30.400 -> 18:34.240] to go to Christ College and then to go and develop from there.
[18:35.040 -> 18:36.880] It depends on the group of people.
[18:36.880 -> 18:43.200] So, before I went to Christ Hospital, people saw me as the smart one, right?
[18:43.200 -> 18:48.180] But that also involves what we call the mandem, right?
[18:48.180 -> 18:51.720] So the people in the end also saw me as the smart one,
[18:51.720 -> 18:55.560] which basically meant there was this, I was protected.
[18:55.560 -> 18:58.820] Rather than them looking at me with, say, jealousy,
[18:58.820 -> 19:01.800] they were like, he's gonna make it out, you know?
[19:01.800 -> 19:04.400] Most of the times, that feeling is towards people
[19:04.400 -> 19:06.680] who they think could be good footballers.
[19:06.680 -> 19:08.680] You know, people who are good footballers
[19:08.680 -> 19:10.640] in the ends are often protected
[19:10.640 -> 19:12.720] because they're like, well, you're gonna make it out
[19:12.720 -> 19:16.600] whilst we're gonna do our bullshit.
[19:16.600 -> 19:20.000] So before Christ Hospital, that was a general sense.
[19:20.000 -> 19:22.640] Like I almost felt like the golden boy, you know?
[19:22.640 -> 19:25.440] Like no one could touch me, no one could fight with me,
[19:25.440 -> 19:27.560] not because they were like scared of me,
[19:27.560 -> 19:30.680] it was more like, oh, well, he's smart,
[19:30.680 -> 19:32.480] like he's gonna get out of the end,
[19:32.480 -> 19:34.280] so let's make sure that we give him everything we have.
[19:34.280 -> 19:36.640] And that just feeds your superiority complex as well.
[19:36.640 -> 19:40.600] Exactly, in Christ Hospital, that's a great question.
[19:40.600 -> 19:43.660] In Christ Hospital, I think in the first year,
[19:43.660 -> 19:45.240] I had a lot of
[19:45.240 -> 19:51.240] quote-unquote enemies because I didn't fit into the thing and I would just do
[19:51.240 -> 19:56.840] things and just go well why not do it this way right. I also think when I sold
[19:56.840 -> 20:01.160] Entrepreneur Express and I came back or even when I did the interview with
[20:01.160 -> 20:05.500] Branton and the word kind of went around, I think people were like,
[20:06.360 -> 20:07.920] you know, really did he?
[20:07.920 -> 20:09.520] And then they saw the picture and they're like,
[20:09.520 -> 20:12.400] oh, well, you know, maybe he knew someone he knew.
[20:12.400 -> 20:15.920] It's like trying to constantly find a reason
[20:15.920 -> 20:19.160] to like justify their insecurities.
[20:19.160 -> 20:22.520] Those were the two main mindsets that I had.
[20:22.520 -> 20:24.560] One was very protected.
[20:24.560 -> 20:27.040] The other was kind of, I'd say, a bit of jealousy,
[20:27.040 -> 20:29.400] which by the end was just kind of like,
[20:29.400 -> 20:32.040] well, he's just gonna do his thing.
[20:32.040 -> 20:33.480] So what did you do with that money
[20:33.480 -> 20:35.760] from Entrepreneur of Express?
[20:35.760 -> 20:37.140] I squandered a lot of it.
[20:37.140 -> 20:40.080] I squandered 40 grand on spread betting.
[20:41.840 -> 20:43.760] And it all came from a very, very, very-
[20:43.760 -> 20:45.200] That was me thinking you were clever.
[20:45.200 -> 20:47.200] I know, me too.
[20:47.200 -> 20:54.200] I squandered a lot of it because I thought, wow, this thing was so easy.
[20:54.200 -> 21:00.200] You know, as I mentioned, like, from me having the idea to build in a distribution and then, you know,
[21:00.200 -> 21:02.800] selling it was like less than a year.
[21:02.800 -> 21:05.040] So I was like, oh, well, you know, I've got the
[21:05.040 -> 21:09.960] Midas touch, I can just do whatever. And then, you know, realized I didn't. I gave
[21:09.960 -> 21:14.000] some to my dad, I gave some there, supported on a whole range of things,
[21:14.000 -> 21:19.840] rent, that was good. But I think most of it was just like a education lesson on
[21:19.840 -> 21:25.840] like how not to spend money, because it did come from a position of me almost thinking
[21:25.840 -> 21:28.400] like, well, I can just do this over and over again.
[21:28.400 -> 21:29.800] But when you look back on that now,
[21:29.800 -> 21:31.600] can you see the benefits from that?
[21:31.600 -> 21:34.360] Yeah, I mean, the benefits are now that I just,
[21:34.360 -> 21:37.760] you know, sold my company last year, Fanbyte,
[21:37.760 -> 21:40.320] where it's like that times 10, you know,
[21:40.320 -> 21:42.880] like multiple millions.
[21:42.880 -> 21:50.400] I'm like, well, yeah, don't do spread betting. So I do see the advantage and I do see the benefit of it.
[21:50.400 -> 21:55.000] But I also think I could have learned that by not spending the money, you know.
[21:55.000 -> 21:58.800] People say stuff like this, which is like,
[21:58.800 -> 22:01.800] I had to fail so I could learn through my failures.
[22:01.800 -> 22:05.560] Like, yeah, that's cool, but I'd just much rather learn from my successes, you know.
[22:05.560 -> 22:10.920] I don't think you, but can you though? Yeah. I think failure teaches you different lessons to success.
[22:10.920 -> 22:16.320] I mean, I think failure teaches you what not to do, but success teaches you what to do.
[22:16.320 -> 22:22.400] Yeah. So just do more of the things that you have to do, you know. I often, you know, find that quite an interesting thing,
[22:22.400 -> 22:25.800] which is like, yes, I failed a bunch of times and
[22:25.800 -> 22:30.800] I've succeeded a bunch of times, but I've learned a lot more from succeeding than failing.
[22:30.800 -> 22:34.320] I had an interview with Ed Sheeran the other day where he was saying success teaches you
[22:34.320 -> 22:38.240] nothing is what he said, you know, failure teaches you everything. And I disagree with
[22:38.240 -> 22:43.080] that because I think that you learn from both. I think that's the key though in life is to
[22:43.080 -> 22:49.080] have both. And what you're telling us here is you've got this great sort of story of businesses that started and didn't really
[22:49.080 -> 22:52.920] go anywhere. You've got business selling for a decent amount of money but then you waste
[22:52.920 -> 22:58.160] the money on you know spread betting and stuff. It's all about this kind of stretch and reward.
[22:58.160 -> 23:02.920] You need to stretch, you need to fail but you need the reward as well and I think too
[23:02.920 -> 23:05.240] much failure is actually just kills you in the end.
[23:05.240 -> 23:05.740] Yeah.
[23:05.740 -> 23:08.740] Too much success probably also just kills you in the end.
[23:08.740 -> 23:12.140] Then you get too egotistical and you think you have the might of such.
[23:12.140 -> 23:16.740] But yeah, I mean look like you are right that you need a healthy dose of failure.
[23:16.740 -> 23:21.140] I say this a lot if you look at my LinkedIn for example, it's like,
[23:21.140 -> 23:28.720] oh started a company at 14, started a company at 17, sold it, started a company at 21, sold it for tens of millions. He must have had a great
[23:28.720 -> 23:32.800] life. And then it's like, yeah, but what I didn't include in the LinkedIn was like the
[23:32.800 -> 23:38.680] eight other businesses that I tried and they all flopped. So, so you need like a healthy
[23:38.680 -> 23:40.360] dollop of that kind of thing.
[23:40.360 -> 23:44.040] What I find interesting about your story is you're not seeing things that are already
[23:44.040 -> 23:46.200] there and just replicating what other people have done.
[23:46.200 -> 23:48.800] You're looking at the world in a very different way.
[23:49.200 -> 23:53.700] And I think that's where true entrepreneurship lies, you know, seeing the things that others aren't seeing.
[23:53.700 -> 23:56.700] So, is there a secret to it? Has it just come easy?
[23:56.700 -> 24:03.600] Have you learned lessons in how people listening to this podcast can discover what the world needs?
[24:04.200 -> 24:14.080] us can discover what the world needs. So ironically, I have not had any original ideas ever. None of my ideas are original
[24:14.080 -> 24:22.080] or unique. In fact, if you look at the idea for Fanbytes was, which for our listeners
[24:22.080 -> 24:26.000] was like, we helped brands to run influencer campaigns,
[24:26.000 -> 24:32.400] right? I started that in 2017. And at that time, influencer marketing was like on the rise.
[24:32.960 -> 24:39.120] And so all I had basically done was I had seen this had been working in the US. And I just said,
[24:39.120 -> 24:46.000] right, I'm going to do that, but I'm going to focus it on a Gen Z audience. That was it, right?
[24:46.000 -> 24:49.200] Like, I didn't come up with the idea of influencer marketing.
[24:49.200 -> 24:50.720] I didn't come up with that.
[24:51.840 -> 24:55.280] And who else was doing that in the UK at that time with the Gen Z audience?
[24:56.000 -> 24:58.560] With the Gen Z audience, there weren't many.
[24:58.560 -> 25:00.720] It tended to be the like holding companies,
[25:00.720 -> 25:02.400] the like WPPs of the world.
[25:02.400 -> 25:04.240] But any individuals that you knew of?
[25:05.000 -> 25:06.000] In the US a lot. In the UK?s of the world. Any individuals that you knew of? In the US a lot.
[25:06.000 -> 25:08.000] In the UK?
[25:08.000 -> 25:09.000] No, not any.
[25:09.000 -> 25:12.000] So, one thing is seeing what other people do.
[25:12.000 -> 25:14.000] Some people don't even see it.
[25:14.000 -> 25:16.000] I think I don't even see what other people do
[25:16.000 -> 25:18.000] to replicate their success or to understand
[25:18.000 -> 25:20.000] the way the world is going.
[25:20.000 -> 25:21.000] And then there's other people that do see it
[25:21.000 -> 25:23.000] and do nothing about it.
[25:23.000 -> 25:24.000] You're giving yourself enough credit
[25:24.000 -> 25:25.680] because you're seeing it, you're doing something about it, see it and do nothing about it. Yeah. You're giving yourself enough credit because you're seeing it,
[25:25.680 -> 25:27.680] you're doing something about it,
[25:27.680 -> 25:28.960] and you're doing something about it.
[25:28.960 -> 25:31.120] And even a tweak is all it takes.
[25:31.120 -> 25:35.200] You're tweaking, and you're selling the business in the end in terms of millions.
[25:35.200 -> 25:38.400] One of my general frameworks has always been, well, like,
[25:38.400 -> 25:41.680] if someone else has done it, then why can't I?
[25:41.680 -> 25:45.640] And then, you know, let me put a bit of like spin on it.
[25:45.640 -> 25:52.200] All right. So if you ask me, well, why did fanbites work? I'd say one, we niched down
[25:52.200 -> 25:58.520] to that Gen Z audience. But the other thing was like, when the influencer market started
[25:58.520 -> 26:09.560] to become more competitive, everyone was basically building large sales teams, trying to, you know, hire people. And I basically said, we are just going to get brands
[26:09.560 -> 26:15.880] through marketing, just through content marketing, etc. So that approach, I think,
[26:15.880 -> 26:19.880] came because I just learned how other people in other industries had done
[26:19.880 -> 26:25.840] their thing. And then I just like bring it into my industry. So maybe like to answer your question,
[26:25.840 -> 26:34.720] I'd say I'm generally very good at being able to thread different models from other industries
[26:34.720 -> 26:41.440] and then weave them together to make something. But like the actual fundamentals of the idea of
[26:41.440 -> 26:47.160] the business is never unique. It's just always like, well, this work, this work, this work.
[26:47.160 -> 26:50.760] I'm just gonna like make them have sex together
[26:50.760 -> 26:52.240] and then see what happens.
[26:53.160 -> 26:54.000] And that's just my approach.
[26:54.000 -> 26:55.080] But what stands out for me in the way
[26:55.080 -> 26:56.200] that you described the business
[26:56.200 -> 26:58.480] was the simplicity of it as well.
[26:58.480 -> 26:59.680] Yeah.
[26:59.680 -> 27:02.080] How powerful is simplicity?
[27:02.080 -> 27:04.480] What made, I think, Fanbyte's work
[27:04.480 -> 27:06.340] is that it was something
[27:06.340 -> 27:11.900] that had been done several times before but in different forms. So when people
[27:11.900 -> 27:17.280] ask me, hey when you sold the company last year did you think this is what
[27:17.280 -> 27:22.680] would happen? You know, did you think that you'd sell it? And I say yes because it's
[27:22.680 -> 27:25.680] exactly how I designed it in my head.
[27:25.680 -> 27:29.240] Because, as I mentioned, like 2017,
[27:29.240 -> 27:33.680] influencers were a new thing, people really didn't understand that.
[27:33.680 -> 27:38.480] But that's also the exact thing that people felt about TV advertising at some point.
[27:38.480 -> 27:42.960] That's also the same thing that people felt about podcast advertising, about radio advertising.
[27:42.960 -> 27:46.760] I had like studied history enough to basically say,
[27:46.760 -> 27:50.600] well, every time there is a new form of advertising,
[27:50.600 -> 27:53.760] a new form of media, it starts off independent
[27:53.760 -> 27:56.160] and then it ends up getting consolidated.
[27:56.160 -> 27:59.440] This is just a rite of passage basically.
[27:59.440 -> 28:03.520] And so in 2017 was I thought,
[28:03.520 -> 28:05.640] well, this is gonna happen anyway, right?
[28:05.640 -> 28:12.400] Like radio happened, PR happened, podcasts happened, video happened, PPC had happened.
[28:12.400 -> 28:18.640] And so the simple business is just be the person who has a bunch of this inventory
[28:18.640 -> 28:23.000] and then sell it onto brands because whether it's five years, whether it's 10 years,
[28:23.000 -> 28:29.960] whether it's blah, blah, blah, there will be consolidation. So it was a simple business because it had been done
[28:29.960 -> 28:34.800] several different times, but it was also a hard business, right? So it was like
[28:34.800 -> 28:40.400] simple but hard, rather than like complex and easy. I much prefer those earlier
[28:40.400 -> 28:44.120] businesses, like simple but hard businesses. So let's send a message then
[28:44.120 -> 28:47.560] to the entrepreneurs listening to this, people that would love to do this.
[28:47.560 -> 28:52.680] Fanbites became big, so it's not possible to do this kind of like you did
[28:52.680 -> 28:56.760] before, in your bedroom on your own, build something and sell it. Explain to
[28:56.760 -> 29:01.920] us how you recruit people around you, how do you pick up on co-founders, who do
[29:01.920 -> 29:05.760] you speak to about investments, sales and all the things
[29:05.760 -> 29:09.120] that suddenly come your way that you can't possibly know because they don't
[29:09.120 -> 29:10.440] teach this stuff at school.
[29:10.440 -> 29:16.600] Okay, so there's co-founders as team and then there are investors. I'll take those in order.
[29:16.600 -> 29:21.800] Co-founders, so I had a co-founder and then we then recruited a CTO.
[29:21.800 -> 29:25.520] So I had a co-founder who was my COO, then brought in a CTO. So I had a co-founder who was my COO,
[29:25.520 -> 29:26.680] then brought in a CTO.
[29:28.040 -> 29:29.480] Co-founders are interesting
[29:29.480 -> 29:31.120] because what I found in general
[29:31.120 -> 29:35.400] is that you ideally don't want to just start a business
[29:35.400 -> 29:37.560] with someone that you've just met.
[29:37.560 -> 29:39.080] In an ideal world,
[29:39.080 -> 29:42.320] you wanna have some kind of small projects
[29:42.320 -> 29:45.680] or something that you objectively work with them on,
[29:45.680 -> 29:50.320] see how you vibe, and then you go on to then like building a company.
[29:50.320 -> 29:53.280] So many people get enamored with this idea of,
[29:53.280 -> 29:55.600] I've just met this person, they're great on paper.
[29:55.600 -> 29:58.600] But what I've come to realize, like, generally the best co-founders
[29:58.600 -> 30:00.840] are kind of therapists to each other,
[30:00.840 -> 30:04.160] who can basically like call each other out on their bullshit, right?
[30:04.160 -> 30:08.140] So like Ambrose called me out on my bullshit a lot at the
[30:08.140 -> 30:12.900] beginning because at the beginning I was a very bad leader like shocking leader
[30:12.900 -> 30:18.740] example I was driven by ego I was like driven by me wanting to be right like
[30:18.740 -> 30:27.040] that was it right and again I was 21, and you know, suddenly I'm like running an organization
[30:27.040 -> 30:31.920] and we've raised a bit of money, so I'm like, oh my god, this has to be right, this has to be right.
[30:31.920 -> 30:34.640] And Nambroso, you know, called me out on that several times.
[30:34.640 -> 30:40.320] Same times I would also call him out on stuff and I'd say, hey, like, you need to do this instead,
[30:40.320 -> 30:44.480] because the way you are approaching this is not like entrepreneurial,
[30:44.480 -> 30:45.080] it's more
[30:45.080 -> 30:47.600] of just like a kind of manager type thing.
[30:47.600 -> 30:49.800] What do you mean by that, entrepreneurial?
[30:49.800 -> 30:56.480] Well so, I would say especially at the beginning, when we sold the company it was 75 people,
[30:56.480 -> 31:07.200] right? Basically from like 0 to about 25 people, I think your leaders need to be comfortable with making decisions that could not work out.
[31:07.200 -> 31:09.120] And I think at the beginning,
[31:09.120 -> 31:11.800] and I also had this to some degree,
[31:11.800 -> 31:16.800] but I think kind of Ambrose is a very calculated person.
[31:17.360 -> 31:20.040] Like he has a spreadsheet for his life, right?
[31:20.040 -> 31:23.520] And so he looks at risk and then goes,
[31:23.520 -> 31:25.320] oh, not sure, not sure.
[31:25.320 -> 31:27.880] Whereas me, I'm like, yo, let's just go.
[31:27.880 -> 31:30.160] But from like zero to 25 people,
[31:30.160 -> 31:33.280] I think that you need to be comfortable with,
[31:33.280 -> 31:35.280] all right, there's gonna be some kind of downside
[31:35.280 -> 31:36.800] and I'm comfortable with that.
[31:36.800 -> 31:40.080] If you're not, what then happens is that you just make
[31:40.080 -> 31:44.160] a lot of incremental steps rather than seismic steps.
[31:44.160 -> 31:47.680] And so that was a perfect example of how you actually
[31:47.680 -> 31:50.120] like need to be a bit more entrepreneurial
[31:50.120 -> 31:53.040] and be okay with decisions where it's like, okay
[31:53.920 -> 31:55.960] it could go here or it could go here.
[31:55.960 -> 31:59.960] Whereas when you're say 50 people plus,
[31:59.960 -> 32:02.640] it's more like, okay, it could go a bit here
[32:02.640 -> 32:04.400] and it could go a bit here, right?
[32:04.400 -> 32:08.160] But at the beginning you're like, well, see, so who knows?
[32:08.160 -> 32:10.760] So that's on the co-founders team.
[32:10.760 -> 32:14.320] I think the overarching thing is that you want to hire people
[32:14.320 -> 32:17.360] who would do a good job regardless of where they are.
[32:17.360 -> 32:19.280] That was a framework breaker for me.
[32:19.280 -> 32:20.760] So at the beginning of Fanbites,
[32:20.760 -> 32:24.040] I overhired for people who were very enthusiastic
[32:24.040 -> 32:25.520] and passionate about influencer
[32:25.520 -> 32:30.800] marketing. I think that was a big mistake. What I should have done was like, say for example,
[32:30.800 -> 32:36.560] I'm hiring a salesperson, should have been like, well, the salesperson just wants to be the best
[32:36.560 -> 32:41.680] salesperson they possibly can be. And what my company is, is a vehicle for them to do that,
[32:41.680 -> 32:46.160] rather than like, they have to be so passionate about the thing that we're actively doing.
[32:46.160 -> 32:50.000] If you can appeal to people's sense of wanting to be better,
[32:50.000 -> 32:51.520] regardless of where they are,
[32:51.520 -> 32:53.680] you would always find the best employees.
[32:53.680 -> 32:56.840] And then your final thing was about investors.
[32:56.840 -> 32:59.120] Man, I'm actually kind of the worst person
[32:59.120 -> 33:02.440] to ask about investors and the reason why,
[33:02.440 -> 33:04.880] so we raised over the course of the business,
[33:04.880 -> 33:11.400] we raised 2 million and every single one of them was kind of like
[33:11.400 -> 33:16.680] weird. So for example the first ever check that we got was from a guy called
[33:16.680 -> 33:22.360] Toby Austin. The way that we got him to invest was during my gap year I wanted
[33:22.360 -> 33:27.200] to work for his company and he said said, no, cause you're too young
[33:27.200 -> 33:30.440] and we tend to hire people with a bit of experience,
[33:30.440 -> 33:32.080] but I like you.
[33:32.080 -> 33:35.920] And when you next start your next business, hit me up.
[33:35.920 -> 33:36.740] Right?
[33:36.740 -> 33:39.280] So like, that's a very unrepeatable way
[33:39.280 -> 33:40.120] of getting investors.
[33:40.120 -> 33:42.960] Basically like go to people, go ask to work for them.
[33:42.960 -> 33:45.600] They will say no, and then raise money from them.
[33:45.600 -> 33:49.600] But I do think over time it got a bit easier.
[33:49.600 -> 33:51.400] We asked people who had investors
[33:51.400 -> 33:54.160] who they would recommend and stuff like that.
[33:54.160 -> 33:55.600] When you're going fundraising,
[33:55.600 -> 33:57.920] never go fundraising where you are
[33:57.920 -> 33:59.640] in a position of weakness.
[33:59.640 -> 34:01.920] So anytime we'd raise money,
[34:01.920 -> 34:04.240] cause we didn't go out and just raise like, you know,
[34:04.240 -> 34:05.680] 2 million straight from the bat.
[34:05.680 -> 34:10.680] It was like 200 and then 300 and then 500, then 600.
[34:10.680 -> 34:12.880] It was always in a position of strength.
[34:12.880 -> 34:15.640] It was always the businesses going this way
[34:15.640 -> 34:18.320] and you best basically jump on this train
[34:18.320 -> 34:20.280] because the train is leaving the station
[34:20.280 -> 34:22.120] rather than kind of like, you know,
[34:22.120 -> 34:24.240] please, can you fund my idea?
[34:24.240 -> 34:28.800] That was a big change in the way that we approach fundraising, which made it incredibly easy.
[34:28.800 -> 34:31.000] So can I ask you about the topic of trust then?
[34:31.000 -> 34:31.500] Yeah.
[34:31.500 -> 34:36.300] Because I'm struck by that first business that you set up, the tutoring business,
[34:36.300 -> 34:40.200] where you almost had to invest trust in both parties,
[34:40.200 -> 34:44.300] and you were disappointed by your margins getting crept down.
[34:44.300 -> 34:47.400] And then by the time that you've set up Fanbites,
[34:47.400 -> 34:50.600] you're having to trust an awful lot of people.
[34:50.600 -> 34:56.000] What did you learn about that process that allowed you to be more trusting to others?
[34:57.000 -> 35:02.600] When I was younger, I assumed that people had negative intent.
[35:03.200 -> 35:08.600] And then over time, I assumed that everyone had positive intent.
[35:08.600 -> 35:11.640] So if you assume everyone has positive intent,
[35:11.640 -> 35:14.280] then you treat them with a good degree of trust
[35:14.280 -> 35:16.120] until they break that trust.
[35:16.120 -> 35:21.120] Like even when I kind of first started Fanbites,
[35:21.960 -> 35:23.720] say someone did something wrong,
[35:23.720 -> 35:25.580] I just go like well they obviously
[35:25.580 -> 35:31.640] did that wrong to like annoy me you know yeah or they came late to spite me it's
[35:31.640 -> 35:35.780] just like a very juvenile way of thinking until I went well actually you
[35:35.780 -> 35:40.580] know there's there's a logical reason for why this may have happened maybe I
[35:40.580 -> 35:44.620] didn't give them the right instructions blah blah blah business owners always go
[35:44.620 -> 35:45.680] through that sort of thing where they start off thinking oh I didn't give them the right instructions, blah, blah, blah, blah. Business owners always go through that sort of thing,
[35:45.680 -> 35:46.960] where they start off thinking,
[35:46.960 -> 35:49.560] oh, I can't believe this person is so stupid.
[35:49.560 -> 35:52.520] And then they go, well, what conditions did I create,
[35:52.520 -> 35:54.400] which perhaps didn't contribute to that?
[35:54.400 -> 35:55.920] And then they tweak their approach.
[35:55.920 -> 35:58.160] And that was kind of like the journey of trust that I went through.
[35:58.160 -> 36:00.040] So from paranoid to pronoid.
[36:00.040 -> 36:00.960] Yeah, pronoid.
[36:00.960 -> 36:01.360] Yeah.
[36:01.360 -> 36:03.360] I didn't even know pronoid was a word. Is that a word?
[36:03.360 -> 36:03.720] Yeah.
[36:03.720 -> 36:04.280] Oh, that's a good one.
[36:04.280 -> 36:05.000] He's a professor, so... Oh, to pronoid. That's cool. Yeah, youoid. I didn't even know pronoid was a word. Is that a word? Yeah. He's a professor, so.
[36:05.000 -> 36:08.000] Oh, to pronoid. That's cool. There you go.
[36:08.000 -> 36:11.000] Pronoia, where you assume everybody is out to help you.
[36:11.000 -> 36:12.000] Yeah.
[36:12.000 -> 36:14.000] Havonoia is where you assume they're out to get you.
[36:14.000 -> 36:17.000] There's a framework, actually, I think it's called Hanlon's Razor,
[36:17.000 -> 36:23.000] and it's basically never mistake formales that can be described by incompetence.
[36:23.000 -> 36:24.000] Right.
[36:24.000 -> 36:27.760] And I remember that thinking kind of going,
[36:27.760 -> 36:31.440] oh yeah of course, like maybe they just don't know any better, that's why they
[36:31.440 -> 36:34.880] made a mistake rather than you know, they hate me or they want to spite me or
[36:34.880 -> 36:38.080] something. So you go on this journey and then
[36:38.080 -> 36:43.040] eventually the day comes where you end up selling fanbites for, the
[36:43.040 -> 36:45.000] reports are tens of millions of pounds, right?
[36:45.000 -> 36:47.000] How does that feel?
[36:47.000 -> 36:55.000] How does that feel? I think there are three points to sell in a company and you know,
[36:55.000 -> 37:00.000] getting like a life changing thing that you go, wow, my life has changed.
[37:00.000 -> 37:05.000] The first one is when you get like the offers in
[37:05.580 -> 37:08.780] and you can see the amount on a sheet of paper
[37:08.780 -> 37:10.940] and obviously you get your calculator out
[37:10.940 -> 37:12.820] and go, I own this percent.
[37:12.820 -> 37:15.340] That means, you know, I think I may have done a calculation
[37:15.340 -> 37:17.860] like 18 times, like just, okay.
[37:17.860 -> 37:19.940] Just to the penny, this means, you know, just-
[37:19.940 -> 37:22.220] And how does that particular moment feel?
[37:22.220 -> 37:24.100] That bit doesn't feel real.
[37:24.100 -> 37:24.940] Right.
[37:24.940 -> 37:27.600] Because it does look like just numbers
[37:27.600 -> 37:29.040] on a sheet of paper.
[37:29.040 -> 37:31.320] Then of course you go through due diligence
[37:31.320 -> 37:33.520] and you go through all of that stuff.
[37:33.520 -> 37:36.240] I was never phased through due diligence.
[37:36.240 -> 37:38.400] If you ask my co-founder whether he was phased,
[37:38.400 -> 37:39.620] he'd be like, oh my God, yes,
[37:39.620 -> 37:42.400] because due diligence is basically 10 weeks
[37:42.400 -> 37:46.240] where they dig deeply into your numbers, your finances,
[37:46.240 -> 37:47.440] everything that you've ever said.
[37:47.440 -> 37:52.760] And like, look, a very healthy portion of deals don't get closed through due diligence, right?
[37:52.760 -> 37:55.760] And so he was always like, okay, is it going to go?
[37:55.760 -> 37:56.480] Is it going to go?
[37:56.480 -> 38:00.800] But I think I just always just had this sense of, well, this is going to happen.
[38:00.800 -> 38:02.320] So it's just going to happen.
[38:02.440 -> 38:02.800] All right.
[38:03.240 -> 38:06.080] So that first feeling of, hmm, this doesn't feel real.
[38:06.680 -> 38:09.000] The second one is the day that you get the money.
[38:09.320 -> 38:10.240] That was just,
[38:10.600 -> 38:11.320] Oh my God,
[38:11.320 -> 38:12.760] I cannot believe this happened.
[38:12.920 -> 38:15.600] And that was just incredible excitement.
[38:15.600 -> 38:15.880] I mean,
[38:16.680 -> 38:18.160] Mitchell and Ambrose.
[38:18.280 -> 38:22.480] So we all basically opened up new bank accounts specifically for this,
[38:22.480 -> 38:22.800] right?
[38:23.200 -> 38:23.840] And like,
[38:23.920 -> 38:26.160] they were both on Lloyds.
[38:26.160 -> 38:29.080] So we're just like walking around the,
[38:29.080 -> 38:30.720] just around the office,
[38:30.720 -> 38:34.240] cause on the 3rd of May, we announced the deal.
[38:35.160 -> 38:37.000] So we announced to the public, you know,
[38:37.000 -> 38:40.800] Times wrote about it, BBC, everyone's like talking about it,
[38:40.800 -> 38:42.560] but the money hadn't dropped.
[38:42.560 -> 38:45.080] So everyone is like, congratulations.
[38:45.080 -> 38:46.240] Oh my God, oh my God.
[38:46.240 -> 38:49.600] And we're like, yeah, yeah, man, it's great.
[38:49.600 -> 38:52.240] But the money still hasn't dropped.
[38:52.240 -> 38:55.880] And then Mitch and Ambrose are both on Lloyds.
[38:55.880 -> 38:58.040] And so we're just like walking around, walking around,
[38:58.040 -> 38:59.800] and then we're like checking our accounts.
[38:59.800 -> 39:01.840] It's like, it's, cause remember,
[39:01.840 -> 39:03.760] we got fresh new accounts for this.
[39:03.760 -> 39:10.700] So it's showing zeros, right? So like we're checking like we're checking like oh man zeros check again no zeros and then
[39:10.700 -> 39:16.140] Ambrose then checks and then he didn't start shouting like just shouting like
[39:16.140 -> 39:21.100] just absolutely like Ambrose is quite a calm measured man so when he when he
[39:21.100 -> 39:25.840] shouts you know something serious happened Mitchell also then goes, oh my God, right?
[39:25.840 -> 39:28.320] And cause I'm on Santander, I like go
[39:28.320 -> 39:31.520] and I'm expecting numbers and it's still showing zero.
[39:31.520 -> 39:32.360] You're then panicking.
[39:32.360 -> 39:36.960] And I'm like, yo, my first thought is like,
[39:36.960 -> 39:40.200] did I give them the right salt code and account number?
[39:40.200 -> 39:42.200] Did I give our lawyers the right salt code
[39:42.200 -> 39:43.020] and account number?
[39:43.020 -> 39:44.640] But then I did it and then it happened.
[39:44.640 -> 39:46.720] And I was like, oh my God.
[39:46.720 -> 39:51.200] There's a video of me on my phone where it's just a six minute video
[39:51.200 -> 39:55.280] and I'm just going, wow, sitting on the floor
[39:55.280 -> 39:58.480] and there's a bottle of like Moet champagne next to me.
[39:58.480 -> 40:00.160] And I'm just like, wow, wow.
[40:00.160 -> 40:03.600] Like that's all I can say because at that point is elation.
[40:03.600 -> 40:05.200] So the first point is, wow,
[40:05.200 -> 40:11.040] this doesn't feel real. Second point is, wow, this is real. This is my new life. And then the next
[40:11.040 -> 40:16.240] point is actually about two, three months afterwards, which is that at that point, it still
[40:16.240 -> 40:22.640] hadn't sunken. The world still goes around, you know, the next day I went to the gym and I went
[40:22.640 -> 40:25.720] to Sainsbury's and I bought apples and then I went home and
[40:26.640 -> 40:31.720] someone described it as like if you have a parent pass away, so like I
[40:32.280 -> 40:37.840] Kind of got the same feeling as when my dad passed away when I was like, yeah
[40:37.920 -> 40:43.280] Pretty much at the beginning of fanbites and I remember thinking to myself. I
[40:43.880 -> 40:45.840] Was going on the bus, I was doing stuff
[40:45.840 -> 40:49.160] and I said, oh my God, like my life has changed
[40:49.160 -> 40:51.320] but the world hasn't changed.
[40:51.320 -> 40:54.200] You know, three months afterwards was then I was like,
[40:54.200 -> 40:57.320] oh, okay, the world hasn't changed.
[40:57.320 -> 40:59.200] When the money job, I was convinced
[40:59.200 -> 41:00.720] that like the world would change.
[41:00.720 -> 41:03.520] Like the earth will open and like everyone
[41:03.520 -> 41:10.680] will start singing and it'd be like, yes you did it my son! Right? But that didn't happen. So those
[41:10.680 -> 41:14.480] were like the three kind of feelings. One was very much like this can't be real.
[41:14.480 -> 41:20.560] The other one was like, wow this is now my life. And then the third one was like,
[41:20.560 -> 41:26.160] oh okay nothing really changed. The whole world just kept going on and kept going on.
[41:26.160 -> 41:27.840] And I find that to be the case with everyone.
[41:27.840 -> 41:30.280] I was speaking to a friend who just sold his company
[41:30.280 -> 41:33.640] for 400 million and he was just like,
[41:33.640 -> 41:35.800] yeah, man, next day I went to McDonald's.
[41:35.800 -> 41:38.720] I was like, dude, just buy a McDonald's, you know?
[41:38.720 -> 41:41.280] So, yeah, those are the changes.
[41:41.280 -> 41:43.320] But that's, there's an interesting link there.
[41:43.320 -> 41:48.880] There's a famous study that was done with lottery winners where they looked at the happiness levels of people that win
[41:49.000 -> 41:56.880] The lottery or have a massive win for like yourself and what they found is their happiness level spike massively for a short period of time
[41:57.160 -> 42:02.240] Yeah, eventually adapts back to where it was before and yeah, that world is normal
[42:02.600 -> 42:05.800] Would you say you're happier now than you were before?d, that world is normal. Would you say you're happier now than you
[42:05.800 -> 42:10.920] were before? Oh yeah, categorically. Your happiness level has shifted.
[42:10.920 -> 42:15.640] You know, yeah I know the whole money doesn't make you happy blah blah, yeah okay cool, but
[42:15.640 -> 42:20.260] look, like I am significantly happier. Like the fact that I can take care of my
[42:20.260 -> 42:24.120] family, I can take care of my friends, I can do whatever I want, like tick tick
[42:24.120 -> 42:26.400] tick tick tick, perfect, perfect, perfect.
[42:26.400 -> 42:28.880] But that also is because like during fan buys,
[42:28.880 -> 42:31.040] I think I was like generally also a very,
[42:31.040 -> 42:32.960] like I was a happy person.
[42:32.960 -> 42:35.000] So it made me happier.
[42:35.000 -> 42:38.180] Now, if I was like a sad, anxious person all the time,
[42:38.180 -> 42:42.240] I don't think that the money would have made me happy.
[42:42.240 -> 42:43.940] So I don't think it goes from like sad to happy,
[42:43.940 -> 42:45.840] I think it's like happy to happier.
[42:45.840 -> 42:47.960] And that's the way that I feel.
[42:47.960 -> 42:50.880] So if before the acquisition,
[42:50.880 -> 42:53.680] my happiness was like, I don't know, seven out of 10,
[42:53.680 -> 42:55.960] I am now like nine out of 10.
[42:55.960 -> 42:57.600] Whereas beforehand, if it was like,
[42:57.600 -> 43:01.400] well, I am just sad and anxious and I'm a two out of 10,
[43:01.400 -> 43:03.920] I would not be a nine out of 10.
[43:03.920 -> 43:06.120] I'd just be like a three. Which is still sad.
[43:06.120 -> 43:11.360] Exactly. Just picking up on your dad what was his name? Godfrey. What would Godfrey
[43:11.360 -> 43:15.760] have thought on the day that money came into your account? Well firstly he'd have
[43:15.760 -> 43:21.120] thought well thank God that the thing you've been working on for so long
[43:21.120 -> 43:30.520] actually turned out to be something. So before he passed away we had a conversation, a random conversation, and I swear this
[43:30.520 -> 43:36.640] sounds like it's from a film. We had just started Fanbites and we'd got an article
[43:36.640 -> 43:42.400] in the Daily Mail and you know he worked in the council and he'd been basically
[43:42.400 -> 43:45.100] like since this article and he
[43:45.100 -> 43:50.020] still didn't quite understand what I was doing. So I remember him, he called me to
[43:50.020 -> 43:53.780] his room and then he said, hey you know I'm so proud of you, I'm so proud of what
[43:53.780 -> 44:00.300] you're doing, I don't really understand what it is but keep going. And then two
[44:00.300 -> 44:05.360] days afterwards he passed away and I think his feeling would have been
[44:06.960 -> 44:13.120] just incredible pride, because I think he always knew I would do something significant.
[44:13.680 -> 44:18.320] Even when he was encouraging me to go to university and stuff, there was always this
[44:18.320 -> 44:24.640] kind of like, but if you find something else, do it, which is very different for African parents.
[44:24.640 -> 44:26.600] African parents are very much like education,
[44:26.600 -> 44:27.840] education, education.
[44:27.840 -> 44:30.560] But I think he had this kind of sense of,
[44:30.560 -> 44:32.640] my son is gonna do something significant.
[44:32.640 -> 44:33.960] I don't know what it is.
[44:33.960 -> 44:36.960] So I think he would go pride.
[44:36.960 -> 44:39.120] And I do think he would also say like,
[44:39.120 -> 44:40.560] I knew it all along.
[44:40.560 -> 44:43.880] In fact, a lot of my friends have said this,
[44:43.880 -> 44:48.760] that like, they felt that they knew all along that
[44:48.760 -> 44:51.640] there will be some degree of success with fanbites.
[44:51.640 -> 44:56.040] I think your dad deserves a lot of credit in this story, doesn't he? Because I'm not
[44:56.040 -> 45:01.040] sure you do this if you're not given the freedom and what we call psychological safety from
[45:01.040 -> 45:09.600] your dad to go, you know what, go and be brave. Yeah, and my mum as well, I mean like I didn't live with her but as I mentioned
[45:09.600 -> 45:14.440] earlier, like she was very effusive with praise, you know, like I could have done
[45:14.440 -> 45:18.400] anything and she'd be like, oh you are the best at it, you are the best at it, you are
[45:18.400 -> 45:23.120] the best whatever rock climber the world has ever seen, you know, so I think both
[45:23.120 -> 45:25.840] of them, that kind of psychological safety was very big.
[45:25.840 -> 45:32.000] Nice. That's huge though, wasn't it? So what's your mum's reaction to it been like?
[45:32.000 -> 45:39.680] I think with her there's been a lot of interesting conversations we've had
[45:39.680 -> 45:44.320] where like she doesn't, she still doesn't quite understand it, like she understands
[45:44.320 -> 45:47.280] that you know her son now can take care of her,
[45:47.280 -> 45:53.760] but that's kind of it. Whereas I think other people have a much greater sense of what it means
[45:53.760 -> 46:00.880] for my life, for their life. I mean, my grandma still doesn't understand, like when I said,
[46:00.880 -> 46:06.000] oh, I'm going to Egypt, or I'm going to the, you know, this, whatever,
[46:06.640 -> 46:12.720] some country. And she says, oh, like for work or for leisure. And I say, well, just for fun,
[46:12.720 -> 46:19.120] I don't have a job now. And she goes, but why? You should be working. I was like, I don't need
[46:19.120 -> 46:25.000] to now. So it's all good. No, but you know, you need to work. A man needs to work.
[46:25.000 -> 46:30.120] So I think, you know, for like that mentality, it's a bit of a frame breaker.
[46:30.120 -> 46:34.240] But for my friends and perhaps like my aunties and uncles,
[46:34.240 -> 46:37.720] I think like they understand it more than my mum basically.
[46:37.720 -> 46:40.920] So you say your grandma says you should be working.
[46:40.920 -> 46:41.440] Yeah.
[46:41.440 -> 46:45.800] Like, are we talking to a retired guy right now?
[46:45.800 -> 46:49.120] I think if at age of 28 you retire, that is a big problem.
[46:49.120 -> 46:57.040] What I would say is that, this is, you know, there's this phrase I saw and someone said,
[46:57.040 -> 47:02.720] I wish everyone could get wealthy so they realize wealth is not the answer.
[47:02.720 -> 47:05.760] And I really like that framework because when
[47:05.760 -> 47:09.440] I speak to friends who, you know, like sold companies for hundreds of millions or
[47:09.440 -> 47:15.040] even myself, it's like well what else are you gonna do with your time? And I think
[47:15.040 -> 47:20.520] everyone kind of thinks they get to the end goal and then life is over. But here
[47:20.520 -> 47:27.000] are two things that I've realized which is often when people win the money game,
[47:27.000 -> 47:30.000] they then go and try and play the status game.
[47:30.000 -> 47:35.500] And the problem with things like the status game is that it's just like a never-ending game, right?
[47:35.500 -> 47:41.000] There will always be someone richer, better looking than you, taller than you, handsomer than you, etc.
[47:41.000 -> 47:46.400] And like, I've tried to do a lot to make sure I don't get involved in
[47:46.400 -> 47:52.660] that kind of status game. I was with a friend recently and he was comparing
[47:52.660 -> 47:56.920] himself to this other guy who had sold his company and I said well do you know
[47:56.920 -> 48:02.520] that like you are richer than that guy so why are you comparing and he said
[48:02.520 -> 48:05.280] yeah I know but he has a hotter girlfriend.
[48:05.280 -> 48:11.760] And I was almost like, do you understand what you're saying? Basically, you started
[48:11.760 -> 48:17.560] off comparing yourself to this guy in terms of income and wealth, and now
[48:17.560 -> 48:22.400] through something you can't control, you are now comparing your partner to his
[48:22.400 -> 48:25.280] partner. At what point is this gonna end?
[48:25.280 -> 48:27.080] Like at what point is it, all right,
[48:27.080 -> 48:29.240] well, now he has better looking kids than me.
[48:29.240 -> 48:32.680] Like it's just constantly going to be this game.
[48:32.680 -> 48:35.360] And so one thing that I've been trying to do,
[48:35.360 -> 48:40.360] and I advise so many of my friends who are doing well,
[48:40.520 -> 48:44.820] et cetera, I say, don't get involved in the status game.
[48:44.820 -> 48:47.080] Because the moment that you get involved in the status game,
[48:47.080 -> 48:49.280] every day of your life, you would be like,
[48:49.280 -> 48:50.800] oh, well, they've got more than me,
[48:50.800 -> 48:52.000] they've got more than me.
[48:52.000 -> 48:54.160] And it's such a bullshit way to live your life.
[48:54.160 -> 48:56.120] So the reason I say all of that
[48:56.120 -> 48:59.200] to answer about like retirement is like,
[48:59.200 -> 49:01.600] no, it's obviously not retirement,
[49:01.600 -> 49:05.760] but it's also like the thing that I am striving for,
[49:05.760 -> 49:08.680] the thing that I'm in, the game that I'm in,
[49:08.680 -> 49:11.400] is more of a, going back to the first of the question
[49:11.400 -> 49:14.660] that we said, it's like, how good could you be, right?
[49:14.660 -> 49:18.160] So like, could I be the best I possibly can be
[49:18.160 -> 49:21.040] in all the different facets of my life,
[49:21.040 -> 49:24.280] which is not judged by what other people think,
[49:24.280 -> 49:25.600] but more by like, how
[49:25.600 -> 49:27.900] good could I possibly be, you know what I mean?
[49:27.900 -> 49:37.120] And with that basis, before we move on to our quickfire questions, to wrap up, if I gave you a scale of 1 to 100, and 100 is you've
[49:37.120 -> 49:42.600] completed every level you're done, and 0 is right at the beginning, where are you
[49:42.600 -> 49:46.400] on that scale? Where do you feel you are?
[49:46.400 -> 49:50.920] The conventional answer that people would give is, you know, I'm just getting started,
[49:50.920 -> 49:57.840] you know, I'm at 5%. I'm a 5%. And again, like, yeah, I mean, that sounds good for the
[49:57.840 -> 50:05.000] tick tocks and stuff. But like, I think I'm maybe like, I don't know, like 81 or 82.
[50:05.920 -> 50:07.620] And that's also because, you know,
[50:09.000 -> 50:14.000] especially in business, people play games
[50:14.120 -> 50:17.080] where the rules have been set by someone else.
[50:17.080 -> 50:20.040] So people say, right, all right,
[50:20.040 -> 50:23.000] the next thing I need to do has to be a billion dollars.
[50:23.000 -> 50:24.120] Why?
[50:24.120 -> 50:25.800] You know, the next thing I have to do has to be a billion dollars. Why? You know, the next thing I have to do
[50:25.800 -> 50:27.680] has to go public IPO.
[50:27.680 -> 50:28.840] Why?
[50:28.840 -> 50:32.480] And I think for me, I have like set myself a bar
[50:32.480 -> 50:34.800] where it's not a billion dollars.
[50:34.800 -> 50:37.520] Like the next company that I do,
[50:37.520 -> 50:41.240] even after we sold the company within about six,
[50:41.240 -> 50:43.200] about six weeks, about two months,
[50:43.200 -> 50:45.820] I had a bunch of VCs being like,
[50:45.820 -> 50:47.680] Hey, here is 10 million.
[50:48.700 -> 50:51.400] I don't know what you're going to do, but start off with 10 million.
[50:51.420 -> 50:52.800] I want to know your next company.
[50:53.560 -> 50:55.340] And I had to have so many conversations.
[50:55.340 -> 50:58.700] I was like, I don't really want to do that.
[50:58.780 -> 51:03.820] You know, I don't really want to do the, like the game that you're choosing to
[51:03.820 -> 51:05.680] play, which is all right, let's now raise
[51:05.680 -> 51:10.000] a 10 million seed, then afterwards we do a 30 million series A, then a 60 million series
[51:10.000 -> 51:16.080] B, then we'll go billion dollars. Not really. So that's a way to answer your question, which
[51:16.080 -> 51:28.800] is like, well, I'd say that, yeah, like 81, 82, because the hundred for me is not like a billion dollars. It's like, okay, have a great physique, great body,
[51:29.360 -> 51:31.320] have good friendships, have good network.
[51:31.320 -> 51:34.600] And yes, build another company that is a success,
[51:34.600 -> 51:38.320] but the success is not like, well, did it IPO
[51:38.320 -> 51:41.200] or did it go to a billion dollars?
[51:41.200 -> 51:43.680] If that was my criteria, then I'd be like,
[51:43.680 -> 51:45.280] oh, I'm at three cause I'm just getting started.'d be like, oh, you know, I'm at three
[51:45.280 -> 51:50.400] because I'm just getting started. It's like, all right, yeah, cool. That's nice. But, but I think
[51:50.400 -> 51:58.240] I just have a general sense of realism as well. I mean, this is a funny story actually with
[51:58.240 -> 52:05.880] Fanbyte was business was going well, growing, etc. And a VC got in touch and wanted to
[52:05.880 -> 52:11.160] basically fund the company, fund I think yeah putting like 8 million into the
[52:11.160 -> 52:17.200] business and just you know raise like 80 million just like crazy valuation and he
[52:17.200 -> 52:23.080] asked me hey how do you think this becomes like the next unicorn and I just
[52:23.080 -> 52:27.600] said it's just not and he was so like what?
[52:27.600 -> 52:32.820] There's not gonna be the next unicorn? No, not really and I think it's because I had a
[52:32.820 -> 52:37.820] very good sense of the game I was trying to play and I had a very good sense of
[52:37.820 -> 52:42.240] expectations and I said hey I think this would easily make you know tens of
[52:42.240 -> 52:47.600] millions not hundreds of millions and And he then invested personally.
[52:47.720 -> 52:50.840] And then when we sold the company, I was like, I told you, right.
[52:51.320 -> 52:56.160] I think there's something to your listness, which is like, whether you want to start a
[52:56.160 -> 53:03.040] company or run a company, try and figure out like the core function and the core
[53:03.040 -> 53:06.080] purpose of the reason why you're doing it, because
[53:06.080 -> 53:12.200] it can be so easy to like do it for the headlines, do it for the fundraising, do it for the likes,
[53:12.200 -> 53:17.840] do it for the clicks. And you kind of forget the fundamental thing, which is any business,
[53:17.840 -> 53:25.240] or at least this is my belief, any business is a vehicle to serve you, right? Not to serve other people.
[53:25.240 -> 53:27.760] It's to serve you, to make you happy,
[53:27.760 -> 53:29.840] make you more, you know, like,
[53:29.840 -> 53:31.760] give you income to provide for your family.
[53:31.760 -> 53:33.800] Like, it's a vehicle for you.
[53:33.800 -> 53:35.800] The moment that you move to becoming almost like
[53:35.800 -> 53:37.440] a slave to your business,
[53:37.440 -> 53:39.440] because you're playing someone else's game
[53:39.440 -> 53:41.880] on how much to fundraise, how big your team is,
[53:41.880 -> 53:44.760] how big your office is, how many press articles you have,
[53:44.760 -> 53:48.160] that's the time that you've actually just lost the game.
[53:48.160 -> 53:50.380] So I think that's a very important thing
[53:50.380 -> 53:52.360] for people to internalize
[53:52.360 -> 53:54.960] as they go on their kind of entrepreneurial journey.
[53:54.960 -> 53:56.640] What a powerful way to finish.
[53:56.640 -> 53:58.680] I think that's the title for this episode.
[53:58.680 -> 54:00.880] Play the game, buy your own rules.
[54:00.880 -> 54:01.840] There you go.
[54:01.840 -> 54:02.680] Nice.
[54:02.680 -> 54:04.280] Ready for the quick fire questions?
[54:04.280 -> 54:05.880] Yes. Three,
[54:05.880 -> 54:10.360] non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you should buy into. A high
[54:10.360 -> 54:20.840] agency, high self-agency, a high sense of urgency, and an unshakable belief that you
[54:20.840 -> 54:27.960] can be more. I could work with you. What's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness?
[54:27.960 -> 54:30.880] Biggest strength, I am very good at getting people
[54:30.880 -> 54:33.060] really excited about things.
[54:33.060 -> 54:36.240] If I have an idea or if you have an idea,
[54:36.240 -> 54:38.680] I can sell you on your own idea
[54:38.680 -> 54:40.760] if you haven't sold yourself.
[54:40.760 -> 54:44.360] Biggest weakness is that I am quite impatient.
[54:44.360 -> 54:45.760] And this is something I've kind of tweaked
[54:45.760 -> 54:48.440] and I've learned a bit more about myself,
[54:48.440 -> 54:53.440] but I assume that like people have the same incentives as me.
[54:53.680 -> 54:56.880] And so if I'm like, we need to do this because it's so fun.
[54:56.880 -> 54:58.840] And at this moment we should do it.
[54:58.840 -> 55:01.160] I assume that everyone has like understood
[55:01.160 -> 55:02.920] the sense of importance,
[55:02.920 -> 55:04.960] when actually you need to understand
[55:04.960 -> 55:05.080] what that person's incentives are and then appeal to those rather than kind of, understood the sense of importance when actually you need to understand what
[55:05.080 -> 55:09.200] that person's incentives are and then appeal to those rather than kind of,
[55:09.200 -> 55:13.880] well let's just go now and that's a problem. If you could offer one bit of
[55:13.880 -> 55:20.920] advice to your teenage self what would you say? Realize that most of what you're
[55:20.920 -> 55:29.760] trying to do has been done by someone else. And your goal in life should be to try and collect and synthesize how other
[55:29.760 -> 55:32.720] people have done things and then put your own spin on it.
[55:33.400 -> 55:35.880] I think I cared too much at the beginning.
[55:35.880 -> 55:40.760] That's why I said during the interview, I have never had an original idea.
[55:41.080 -> 55:44.640] I think I cared too much about like thinking about things from like,
[55:44.880 -> 55:45.440] I needed to have the idea. I needed to be the guy. I needed I care too much about like thinking about things from like I needed
[55:45.440 -> 55:49.960] to have the idea, I needed to be the guy, I needed to do it. When rather it's you
[55:49.960 -> 55:54.940] want to collect a bunch of ideas and collect the right people who know the
[55:54.940 -> 55:59.420] stuff and then bring them together rather than you needing to be the
[55:59.420 -> 56:06.080] superstar, you needing to be the like source of all the answers. How important is legacy to you?
[56:06.080 -> 56:06.920] Zero.
[56:07.760 -> 56:10.800] I have zero desire for legacy.
[56:10.800 -> 56:15.680] Last week I was in Cairo and I went to the museum
[56:15.680 -> 56:17.400] and I saw this massive statue,
[56:17.400 -> 56:21.200] like huge statue of these two people next to each other.
[56:21.200 -> 56:22.280] And it was like, you know,
[56:22.280 -> 56:25.760] here lies the king of da da da da.
[56:34.880 -> 56:41.680] I was like 100 years ago these people were the shit now they're dead so now what you know like we're gonna die and when we die everyone be like oh well cool they were good people and then they
[56:41.680 -> 56:49.360] just get on with their lives and so I do not care about legacy. I have never cared about legacy. I've never cared about
[56:50.000 -> 56:54.400] when I die later on what will people say about me because I'm dead and
[56:54.680 -> 56:57.720] the people who I care about their thoughts, they will also have died.
[56:58.240 -> 57:03.700] There's that old saying that you should always aim not to be the smartest person in any room. Yeah.
[57:04.400 -> 57:06.440] Where do you stand on that?
[57:06.440 -> 57:13.480] If you had asked me this question when I was 20 or 21 I would have said screw that,
[57:13.480 -> 57:21.480] be the smartest. And now I fully agree with the idea that you should not be the
[57:21.480 -> 57:25.480] smartest person in the room and you should know
[57:25.480 -> 57:32.160] the smartest people in the room. As I've just gone up in business I've started to
[57:32.160 -> 57:38.800] realize something so profound that a lot of business success is not based on what
[57:38.800 -> 57:48.320] you know, it is more like who you know who knows the what. So I've now become very well-versed
[57:48.320 -> 57:51.440] in what I call the people collection business.
[57:51.440 -> 57:54.200] So like even my next company,
[57:54.200 -> 57:56.160] I'm not thinking about what it is.
[57:56.160 -> 57:58.440] I'm thinking like, who am I gonna do it with?
[57:58.440 -> 57:59.680] And then once I figured out the who,
[57:59.680 -> 58:01.560] I'm like, yo, we will figure it out.
[58:01.560 -> 58:03.680] I know we just would,
[58:03.680 -> 58:07.200] but if we vibe intellectually, socially,
[58:07.200 -> 58:13.200] then some magic will happen. So that's been a big change from the way that I thought when
[58:13.200 -> 58:14.920] I was younger up until now.
[58:14.920 -> 58:19.360] Your final message for people listening to this episode, what would you like to leave
[58:19.360 -> 58:25.320] ringing in their ears for how you would advise them to live their own version of high performance?
[58:25.320 -> 58:31.240] You should set a bar that only you can measure and you should constantly
[58:31.240 -> 58:37.960] challenge yourself to pass that bar. That living by other people's sense of what
[58:37.960 -> 58:43.480] success is, is a surefire way to be incredibly miserable.
[58:45.520 -> 58:50.240] way to be incredibly miserable. Damien, Jake, I love guests that don't just give you like a stock answer that
[58:50.240 -> 58:52.680] they actually think about what they're saying where you ask them something and
[58:52.680 -> 58:56.520] they go, hmm hold on, most people would say this but I think the answer is
[58:56.520 -> 59:00.760] actually this. I thought he was a fascinating guy. Yeah and the irony was
[59:00.760 -> 59:04.160] that he said he's never had an original thought in his life and yet a lot of
[59:04.160 -> 59:07.280] what he was saying was bold and it was's never had an original thought in his life and yet a lot of what he was
[59:04.640 -> 59:10.040] saying was bold and it was daring and
[59:07.280 -> 59:11.760] it was original. My only thing is I just
[59:10.040 -> 59:13.800] believe that he's he's gonna have to go
[59:11.760 -> 59:15.600] again he's 28 years old he's already
[59:13.800 -> 59:16.800] set up and sold a number of businesses
[59:15.600 -> 59:18.920] you know the early ones are a failure
[59:16.800 -> 59:22.880] the most recent ones have been successful
[59:18.920 -> 59:25.760] people like Timo don't stop they keep
[59:22.880 -> 59:25.200] going and going and going.
[59:25.200 -> 59:46.000] But there was a really interesting response that he gave that I found fascinating and it echoed the conversation we had with the Crystal Palace co-owner Steve Parish where he spoke about gathering interesting and successful people around him. yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud â'r brifysgol, yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol. yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol. Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:46.000 -> 59:48.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:48.000 -> 59:50.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:50.000 -> 59:52.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:52.000 -> 59:54.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:54.000 -> 59:56.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:56.000 -> 59:58.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[59:58.000 -> 01:00:00.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[01:00:00.000 -> 01:00:02.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[01:00:02.000 -> 01:00:04.000] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol.
[01:00:04.000 -> 01:00:07.540] Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol. Yn ymwneud ag y brifysgol. view of the world to you. I thought it was really cool I loved it. Yeah I did too I think if you're mad with this they often talk about in business there's cycles
[01:00:07.540 -> 01:00:11.400] there's the three eyes there's some people that innovate there's some people
[01:00:11.400 -> 01:00:15.740] that imitate and then there's the idiots that come last and I think he actually
[01:00:15.740 -> 01:00:20.640] is an innovator so you put it by doing that by imitating others ideas and
[01:00:20.640 -> 01:00:26.560] bringing them together. Top man thanks thanks mate. Thanks mate, loved it.
[01:00:27.520 -> 01:00:31.240] Well look, I really hope that you enjoyed that conversation. You know, I just love
[01:00:31.240 -> 01:00:36.200] the way that Timo continues to explore and I don't think that Timo would have
[01:00:36.200 -> 01:00:39.720] done anything like the things that he has experienced, the things he's
[01:00:39.720 -> 01:00:44.080] experienced or achieved, the things he has if he didn't constantly explore. I
[01:00:44.080 -> 01:00:47.000] remember Johnny Wilkinson first sharing that thought with us here on High Performance.
[01:00:47.000 -> 01:00:52.000] So if you take one thing away from this conversation, it's the power of exploration.
[01:00:52.000 -> 01:00:55.000] Don't forget you can also watch these conversations on YouTube
[01:00:55.000 -> 01:00:58.000] as well as listen to them on your podcast platforms
[01:00:58.000 -> 01:01:03.000] and find out more from High Performance at thehighperformancepodcast.com.
[01:01:03.000 -> 01:01:05.560] Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon.
[01:01:22.310 -> 01:01:24.370] you