E201 - Steve Hare: Remaining calm through chaos with the UK's highest rated CEO

This is the first episode of our Leadership Series, sponsored by PwC, in which we will be diving deep into what it really takes to be a CEO.

Steve Hare is a businessman and CEO of Sage Group PLC, the leader in accounting, financial, HR and payroll tech for small and mid-sized businesses. With over three decades of experience in the industry, Steve shares with Jake and Damian his insights into the business world, including the benefit of being older in business, how to face the challenges of being CEO and the key advice he would give young entrepreneurs.

Prior to Sage, after achieving his career ambition of reaching CFO below the age of 40 (one of the youngest in the FTSE 100), Steve was asked to leave 18 months later. Although this was one of the lowest moments of his career, Steve shares with Jake and Damian the invaluable lessons he took away from this experience. They discuss how to hire good people, the ‘Waiter Test’ and how crucial a “team comes first” culture is.

Thank you to PwC for sponsoring this special CEO Series. PwC’s purpose is to build trust and solve important problems, and their global strategy - The New Equation - is bringing this to life for their clients, people and society. By combining technology with human ingenuity, passion and experience, PwC works with organisations to deliver more intelligent, sustained outcomes.

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**Navigating Leadership Challenges: Insights from Steve Hare, CEO of Sage**

**Introduction**

In this special episode of the High Performance Podcast, Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes engage in a captivating conversation with Steve Hare, the CEO of Sage Group PLC, a leading provider of accounting, financial, HR, and payroll technology for small and mid-sized businesses. Steve shares his valuable insights on leadership, drawing from his extensive experience in the industry and his journey to becoming a successful CEO.

**Key Takeaways**

* **High Performance:** Steve defines high performance as pushing oneself to achieve the best version of themselves, setting ambitious goals, and consistently delivering amazing results over time. He emphasizes the importance of resilience and the ability to ride the highs and lows of the journey.

* **Early Career:** Steve reflects on his early career, acknowledging that he was more passionate about playing rugby than pursuing academic excellence. He realized the need to align his efforts with outcomes that excited him and developed a determination to achieve his goals.

* **Balancing High Performance and Personal Well-being:** Steve highlights the challenge of balancing high performance with personal well-being. He stresses the importance of falling in love with the outcome, rather than focusing solely on the process. This mindset shift helps individuals embrace the highs and lows and avoid overreacting to setbacks.

* **Learning from Setbacks:** Steve shares a significant setback he faced early in his career when he was asked to leave his position as CFO of a company due to a debt restructuring. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing that setbacks are not personal failures but opportunities for learning and growth.

* **The "Waiter Test":** Steve introduces the "Waiter Test" as a valuable tool for assessing customer service and employee engagement. He explains that if employees treat customers the same way they would treat a waiter or waitress, it is a sign of a healthy and respectful company culture.

* **Creating a "Team Comes First" Culture:** Steve emphasizes the significance of fostering a "team comes first" culture within an organization. He believes that when teams prioritize the collective good over individual interests, they achieve remarkable results.

* **Winning Hearts and Minds:** Steve shares his approach to winning hearts and minds when leading a large organization. He stresses the importance of walking the floors, engaging with employees at all levels, and creating a sense of trust and psychological safety.

* **The Power of Honesty and Transparency:** Steve highlights the value of honesty and transparency in leadership. He encourages leaders to be open about challenges and setbacks, acknowledging that vulnerability can build trust and strengthen relationships.

* **The Importance of Values:** Steve discusses the role of values in shaping company culture and decision-making. He emphasizes the need for values to be meaningful and actionable, guiding employees' behaviors and interactions.

* **Building a High-Performance Culture:** Steve outlines the key elements of a high-performance culture, including a clear sense of purpose, a focus on continuous improvement, and a commitment to employee development. He believes that creating such a culture requires leaders to set the tone and lead by example.

**Conclusion**

Steve Hare's leadership journey is a testament to the power of resilience, adaptability, and the ability to learn from setbacks. His insights on creating a high-performance culture, fostering a "team comes first" mentality, and the importance of values and transparency provide valuable lessons for aspiring leaders.

# Podcast Episode Summary: Leadership Series - Steve Hare, CEO of Sage Group PLC

**Guest:** Steve Hare, CEO of Sage Group PLC

**Topics Discussed:**

* The importance of being older in business
* How to face the challenges of being CEO
* Key advice for young entrepreneurs
* The benefits of having a "team comes first" culture
* How to hire good people
* The importance of creating a psychologically safe environment
* The value of learning from mistakes
* How to create boundaries and maintain a healthy work-life balance

**Key Points:**

* **Being older in business can be an advantage.** Hare believes that his age has helped him to become a more effective leader. He has a wealth of experience to draw on, and he is less likely to make impulsive decisions.
* **The most important challenge for a CEO is to create a high-performance culture.** This means creating an environment where employees are motivated, engaged, and productive. It also means setting clear goals and expectations, and providing employees with the resources they need to succeed.
* **The best advice Hare can give to young entrepreneurs is to focus on building a strong team.** He believes that a team of talented and motivated people is the key to success.
* **A "team comes first" culture is essential for creating a high-performance workplace.** This means that everyone on the team is committed to working together and supporting each other. It also means that employees are willing to put the needs of the team ahead of their own individual needs.
* **To hire good people, it is important to look for candidates who are not only skilled and experienced, but also have the right attitude and values.** Hare believes that it is important to hire people who are passionate about their work and who are committed to the company's mission.
* **It is important to create a psychologically safe environment where employees feel comfortable taking risks and making mistakes.** Hare believes that this is essential for fostering innovation and creativity.
* **Learning from mistakes is essential for continuous improvement.** Hare encourages his employees to learn from their mistakes and to use those lessons to improve their performance.
* **It is important to create boundaries and maintain a healthy work-life balance.** Hare believes that it is important for employees to have time outside of work to relax and recharge. He also believes that it is important for employees to set boundaries and to avoid working excessive hours.

**Conclusion:**

Steve Hare is a successful CEO who has a wealth of experience to share. He is a strong advocate for creating a high-performance culture, hiring good people, and creating a psychologically safe environment. He also believes that it is important to learn from mistakes and to maintain a healthy work-life balance.

# Leadership Series: Steve Hare, CEO of Sage Group PLC

## Introduction

In this episode, we delve into the world of leadership with Steve Hare, CEO of Sage Group PLC, a leading provider of accounting, financial, HR, and payroll technology for small and mid-sized businesses. With over three decades of experience in the industry, Steve shares his insights on the business world, the challenges of being a CEO, and the key advice he would give young entrepreneurs.

## Steve Hare's Journey

Steve Hare's career journey has been marked by both successes and challenges. He achieved his career ambition of reaching CFO below the age of 40, becoming one of the youngest in the FTSE 100. However, 18 months later, he was asked to leave, which was one of the lowest moments of his career. Despite this setback, Steve learned invaluable lessons from this experience, which he shares in this episode.

## The Importance of Hiring Good People

Steve emphasizes the importance of hiring good people and creating a team that works well together. He believes in the 'Waiter Test,' which involves observing how potential hires treat service staff. According to Steve, if someone is rude to a waiter or waitress, they are unlikely to be a good fit for the company culture.

## Building a "Team Comes First" Culture

Steve stresses the significance of fostering a "team comes first" culture within the organization. He believes that the success of a business depends on the collective efforts of the team rather than the individual achievements of the CEO. He aims to create an environment where everyone feels valued and respected, and where teamwork and collaboration are encouraged.

## Steve Hare's Advice for Young Entrepreneurs

For young entrepreneurs, Steve offers valuable advice. He encourages them to be passionate about their business, to be persistent and resilient in the face of challenges, and to surround themselves with good people. He also emphasizes the importance of staying humble and learning from mistakes.

## Steve Hare's Leadership Style

Steve Hare's leadership style is characterized by his focus on building a strong team, his commitment to creating a positive and inclusive work culture, and his ability to learn from both successes and failures. He believes that leadership is about empowering others and creating an environment where everyone can thrive.

## Conclusion

In this episode, Steve Hare provides valuable insights into the world of leadership, sharing his experiences, challenges, and advice. His emphasis on hiring good people, building a "team comes first" culture, and staying humble and learning from mistakes offers valuable lessons for aspiring leaders and entrepreneurs.

[00:00.000 -> 00:04.640] I'm so excited to finally announce the High Performance Foundation, a charity aligned to
[00:04.640 -> 00:08.880] the values of high performance, which will enable young people across the world to develop the
[00:08.880 -> 00:13.360] skills and tools they need to thrive. Our first programme brings the values of high performance
[00:13.360 -> 00:18.080] into the classroom. So many teachers have asked us to get the valuable content and lessons from
[00:18.080 -> 00:23.600] this podcast into schools so the next generation can embrace failure, develop resilience and
[00:23.600 -> 00:25.240] understand empathy.
[00:25.240 -> 00:28.160] So we've listened, and coming in autumn 2023
[00:28.160 -> 00:30.680] will be unique resources for teachers and pupils
[00:30.680 -> 00:32.760] that help young people build the soft skills
[00:32.760 -> 00:34.280] they need to thrive.
[00:34.280 -> 00:37.340] We want to build this foundation for you and with you.
[00:37.340 -> 00:39.320] You can use the free resources we create,
[00:39.320 -> 00:41.000] you can fundraise to ensure we reach
[00:41.000 -> 00:44.420] as many people as possible, or even sponsor our programs.
[00:44.420 -> 00:49.760] For now though, we have one very exciting thing that you can get involved in. We've joined together with Runthrough
[00:49.760 -> 00:56.240] to bring you the High Performance London Half. A half marathon, a 10k and a kids race at the
[00:56.240 -> 01:02.480] Olympic Park on the 3rd of March 2024. We'd love you to enter and sign up to fundraise for the High
[01:02.480 -> 01:10.240] Performance Foundation. Oh and by the way, experienced runners, beginners, kids, grandparents, this race is for anyone
[01:10.240 -> 01:11.240] and everyone.
[01:11.240 -> 01:16.240] And as so many of our guests have proved, action leads to motivation.
[01:16.240 -> 01:28.560] So sign up now at the highperformancepodcast.com forward slash foundation. Hi there, welcome along to a very special episode of High Performance.
[01:28.560 -> 01:34.520] Over the next few weeks, we're going to be working with PwC to bring you lessons in leadership.
[01:34.520 -> 01:38.880] Between us, we've tracked down some of the most fascinating leaders in business to share
[01:38.880 -> 01:41.020] their insights in how to lead.
[01:41.020 -> 01:44.860] So we start the series by welcoming Steve Hare, the CEO of Sage.
[01:44.860 -> 01:46.520] It's a fascinating conversation,
[01:46.800 -> 01:50.400] but I think we can only truly assess leadership when times are tough.
[01:50.420 -> 01:55.040] And actually Steve was voted by Glassdoor as the number one CEO in the
[01:55.060 -> 01:58.440] UK during the pandemic. So what can he share with you?
[01:58.800 -> 02:02.840] Prepare for a fascinating insight into leadership. Here he is,
[02:03.040 -> 02:06.040] Steve Hare on high performance in association
[02:06.040 -> 02:07.600] with PwC.
[02:07.600 -> 02:13.680] Well Steve welcome to high performance.
[02:13.680 -> 02:16.440] Thanks very much. First question is what
[02:16.440 -> 02:18.520] is your definition of high performance?
[02:18.520 -> 02:21.720] For me it's doing amazing things that
[02:21.720 -> 02:23.880] you probably maybe didn't think you were
[02:23.880 -> 02:29.640] capable of so pushing to be that best version of yourself it also starts with you've got
[02:29.640 -> 02:35.120] a want it so high performance doesn't happen unless you set yourself that
[02:35.120 -> 02:38.820] ambition you put effort in you've also got to be resilient because high
[02:38.820 -> 02:44.040] performance doesn't happen every day it goes in ebbs and flows and so overall I
[02:44.040 -> 02:45.040] think one of the best
[02:45.040 -> 02:49.980] measures of high performance is whether you can deliver it consistently over a
[02:49.980 -> 02:54.760] period of time and you can sort of ride those highs and lows but produce
[02:54.760 -> 02:59.100] something amazing over a consistent period. And you've done it over a long
[02:59.100 -> 03:03.080] period of time you're sitting here as a very experienced CEO but if we wind the
[03:03.080 -> 03:10.200] clock back to the early days in your career, was this mindset there then or did certain things happen that kind
[03:10.200 -> 03:14.600] of led you down the path that you've been on? So from a very young age if I
[03:14.600 -> 03:19.520] decided I wanted to do something I've always had this determination but it
[03:19.520 -> 03:23.520] hasn't always produced amazing outcomes you know I think particularly when I
[03:23.520 -> 03:28.300] when I look back I tried lots of things you know I didn't have a particularly outstanding
[03:28.300 -> 03:33.380] academic record for example and I think when I look back that's partly because I
[03:33.380 -> 03:38.340] was much more motivated to play rugby when I was at school than I
[03:38.340 -> 03:47.360] was really you know to study Latin or history or geography or whatever and so if I couldn't see the link with an
[03:47.360 -> 03:54.040] outcome that I thought was interesting, I found it very hard to really get excited about
[03:54.040 -> 03:55.040] it.
[03:55.040 -> 04:00.420] So I think where I'm passionate and where I'm invested in an outcome, then I've always
[04:00.420 -> 04:03.720] had that kind of drive to get to something.
[04:03.720 -> 04:05.060] I've got much better at doing things
[04:05.060 -> 04:07.820] I also don't enjoy quite so much but I see as essential
[04:08.200 -> 04:11.760] Whereas when I was younger if if I didn't if I didn't get a kick out of it
[04:11.760 -> 04:13.520] I kind of didn't really do it
[04:13.520 -> 04:14.800] It's quite interesting
[04:14.800 -> 04:19.360] Topic to pick out for a second actually that because I think a lot of people feel they've only found high performance
[04:19.360 -> 04:23.320] You see it all the time find your passion find what you love doing find what makes you happy
[04:23.320 -> 04:25.440] Find what makes you float and fly.
[04:25.440 -> 04:30.200] Look, the truth is, quite often high performance is also doing the stuff that you don't want
[04:30.200 -> 04:31.200] to do.
[04:31.200 -> 04:33.600] So how have you come to terms with that?
[04:33.600 -> 04:35.080] You fall in love with the outcome.
[04:35.080 -> 04:37.160] What is it that we're trying to achieve?
[04:37.160 -> 04:42.000] What is it that is that kind of North Star that excites us?
[04:42.000 -> 04:46.800] And then you just get to learn over time that if you want that North Star
[04:46.800 -> 04:53.920] there are a lot of hard yards and I mean I've never met anyone who is consistently achieving
[04:53.920 -> 04:59.200] high performance that doesn't put a huge amount of effort in and who doesn't have highs and
[04:59.200 -> 05:04.080] lows because in order to achieve that outcome you have to be prepared to experiment and
[05:04.080 -> 05:05.720] I think when you're younger,
[05:05.720 -> 05:07.620] you probably worry too much about outcomes
[05:07.620 -> 05:09.240] or how you are perceived.
[05:09.240 -> 05:10.960] And actually it's probably getting worse
[05:10.960 -> 05:13.240] with social media, et cetera, right?
[05:13.240 -> 05:16.300] And so I think you worry too much about
[05:16.300 -> 05:18.340] as you're going along the journey,
[05:18.340 -> 05:20.080] how am I being judged?
[05:20.080 -> 05:21.680] How am I being seen?
[05:21.680 -> 05:28.600] Well, you can't be brilliant and high performing at every single step.
[05:28.600 -> 05:29.600] Nobody can.
[05:29.600 -> 05:35.440] The best athletes in the world have days where it doesn't gel, it doesn't work.
[05:35.440 -> 05:42.320] And so, I think that determination and a sense of falling in love with the outcome then drives
[05:42.320 -> 05:45.280] you that when you
[05:43.160 -> 05:48.000] hit those obstacles you get it, you kind
[05:45.280 -> 05:49.280] of brush yourself off and maybe when
[05:48.000 -> 05:53.520] you're younger as well, when you hit those
[05:49.280 -> 05:56.600] obstacles you overreact to the lows and
[05:53.520 -> 05:59.040] you probably overreact to the highs as
[05:56.600 -> 06:01.520] well. By all means celebrate the highs but
[05:59.040 -> 06:03.680] don't get carried away because it is
[06:01.520 -> 06:06.240] about being consistent and driving your
[06:03.680 -> 06:05.600] way through those ups and downs. So we'll come on and talk about the highs in a oherwydd mae'n ymwneud â bod yn cydweithio'n cydweithio a'n ymdrechu'n ymwneud â'r rhai o'r cyd-dewis a'r cyd-dewis.
[06:05.600 -> 06:10.720] Felly byddwn yn dod i mewn a'i siarad am y cyhoeddiadau yn ystod, Steve, ond rwy'n mwynhau'r llawiau yna,
[06:10.720 -> 06:25.040] oherwydd fel y dweudwch, mae llawer o'n cyfarwyddwyr wedi dweud i ni fod yna lle maen nhw wedi darganfod mwy am eu hunain. Beth byddwch chi'n dweud o'r llawiau mwyaf a beth yw'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â chi y dywedwch fod yn ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â chi y dywedwch fod yn ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â chi y dywedwch fod yn ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â chi y dywedwch fod yn ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â chi y dywedwch fod yn ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwneud â'r pethau y mae'n ymwne they taught you that you've experienced?
[06:21.680 -> 06:27.320] The first really big low was one of
[06:25.040 -> 06:29.440] these classics where I had a really big
[06:27.320 -> 06:33.240] high and then I had a really big low which
[06:29.440 -> 06:35.480] was I'd had a pretty typical career up
[06:33.240 -> 06:38.000] until my late 30s working my
[06:35.480 -> 06:40.680] qualified as an accountant, had lots of
[06:38.000 -> 06:42.800] you know good jobs and was given lots of
[06:40.680 -> 06:45.960] really good stretch roles, was great.
[06:42.800 -> 06:51.280] And then in my late 30s 39 actually I became the CFO of what at the time was GC later to be renamed
[06:51.280 -> 06:57.760] Marconi. 10 billion revenue company making a billion of profit was FTSE 20
[06:57.760 -> 07:03.000] so it was one of the 20 biggest companies in the UK and at the time I
[07:03.000 -> 07:09.760] wasn't the youngest but I was one of the youngest CFOs on the FTSE and I always remember I was appointed on the 10th of
[07:09.760 -> 07:17.400] April 2001. Six months later we'd done two profit warnings, the chairman, the CEO
[07:17.400 -> 07:23.680] and the deputy CEO had all left and a guy I'd previously worked for had taken over as CEO
[07:23.680 -> 07:25.560] and it was the dot-com
[07:25.560 -> 07:31.200] crash. Demand had just you know sort of dried up. The company was still trading
[07:31.200 -> 07:37.320] profitably but during the boom years the team had gone on a big acquisition spree
[07:37.320 -> 07:43.760] and we'd taken on four billion pounds of debt which there was now very little
[07:43.760 -> 07:45.800] prospect we'd be able to repay that
[07:45.800 -> 07:52.800] debt. I'd become CFO because I had a lot of operational experience, but now I was faced
[07:52.800 -> 07:59.120] with the prospect of renegotiating the financing package with the banks, which I'd never done
[07:59.120 -> 08:06.240] before, which I did. So we had a group of 35 banks and hundreds of bondholders
[08:06.240 -> 08:12.840] because the debt was half bond half bank finance and I negotiated a revised
[08:12.840 -> 08:17.320] financing package which took about six months but in the meantime the market
[08:17.320 -> 08:20.880] had continued to deteriorate and so we got to a point where I went to the board
[08:20.880 -> 08:29.240] and I said look we've got a package here a refinancing package we could sign but if we sign it I think in a year's time we'll
[08:29.240 -> 08:34.280] be back at the table because we have no prospect of paying this four billion of
[08:34.280 -> 08:38.440] debt off is the truth so what we really need to do is a fundamental restructure
[08:38.440 -> 08:42.920] where we do what's called a debt for equity swap which is basically we we
[08:42.920 -> 08:49.120] give the equity to the banks and the bondholders we restructure the whole thing but then it's in a fit shape for
[08:49.120 -> 08:53.280] the future that took another year or so to do which we did and at the time it
[08:53.280 -> 08:57.080] was the largest debt for equity swap swap in Europe at the end of that
[08:57.080 -> 09:03.600] process the banks approached my chairman and said this is great but we think
[09:03.600 -> 09:07.260] Steve needs to go because he's negotiated very
[09:07.260 -> 09:12.260] hard he's left a bit of a sour taste in everybody's mouth so let's draw a line
[09:12.260 -> 09:16.740] in the sand and I've been with them for 13 years so I'd started as a factory
[09:16.740 -> 09:30.080] accountant and worked my way up to be group CFO so I'd gone from this achieving my career ambition to be a listed CFO to being asked
[09:30.080 -> 09:32.500] to leave in 18 months.
[09:32.500 -> 09:37.360] And that was pretty, that was a pretty severe contrast.
[09:37.360 -> 09:42.800] But it was the right thing, it was the right decision because nobody was happy, if you
[09:42.800 -> 09:46.320] see what I mean. I mean I'd negotiated a fair deal
[09:46.320 -> 09:52.120] but literally nobody involved in that in negotiation was happy they were all sort
[09:52.120 -> 09:56.360] of equally unhappy but it was the right thing for the company. Did you recognize
[09:56.360 -> 10:00.080] the feedback that the banks were giving to your boss? People have asked me a
[10:00.080 -> 10:05.960] number of times actually during that whether did I ever think about whether at the end
[10:05.960 -> 10:13.140] of it I was sort of sacrificing anything personally. And I can honestly say that that isn't how
[10:13.140 -> 10:18.160] I thought. I just was determined. I knew we had a healthy company that just had too much
[10:18.160 -> 10:24.860] debt. So all I could think about was the thousands of jobs that we had to save the company. We
[10:24.860 -> 10:25.640] had to put it into a position where it could survive long term. And if at the thousands of jobs that we had to save the company, we had to put it
[10:25.640 -> 10:29.800] into a position where it could survive long term and if at the end of that I
[10:29.800 -> 10:35.680] needed to go and do something else, well so be it. It took me a while afterwards
[10:35.680 -> 10:40.600] so in my rational brain said yeah I get that so I didn't really argue with the
[10:40.600 -> 10:44.480] chairman I said yeah I get it no problem let's kind of move on and I remember
[10:44.480 -> 10:48.080] agreeing he said I think it'll work best Steve if we if we
[10:48.080 -> 10:54.320] announce it your number two takes over and then you stay for six months to help
[10:54.320 -> 10:58.880] him through the transitional period but I think if we're going to do this we
[10:58.880 -> 11:03.680] need a bit of a clean break so let's agree how it's going to work and we'll
[11:03.680 -> 11:09.080] literally announce it in the next few weeks and this taught me a very valuable lesson because I'd been there
[11:09.080 -> 11:15.560] 13 years I thought I was a very you know really important part of the fabric so
[11:15.560 -> 11:22.460] to speak we announced it and literally within a week nobody was coming to me
[11:22.460 -> 11:25.920] for any advice communication with me had sort of ceased
[11:25.920 -> 11:30.800] up and I remember going to somebody who I'd worked, who I'd worked for, a more
[11:30.800 -> 11:34.000] experienced boss and I said I can't believe this, you know I said a week ago
[11:34.000 -> 11:40.560] I was the CFO and he said yeah but now you're not Steve. That sounds like quite
[11:40.560 -> 11:50.360] a bruise to the ego as well and you must have had a healthy ego to put yourself in these positions to eventually be trusted as like as a
[11:50.360 -> 11:54.960] CFO at such a young age. How did you handle it?
[11:54.960 -> 11:59.680] The thing that it really taught me and obviously look at the time did I feel
[11:59.680 -> 12:06.120] bruised? Yeah, yeah I mean it took me took me a while to kind of come to terms with what
[12:06.120 -> 12:14.000] happened. But of course it's not it's not personal right and it's not about you
[12:14.000 -> 12:20.320] it's about the bigger team and it's about the bigger organization and it's
[12:20.320 -> 12:24.360] not personal. I mean when the when the chairman sat me down it wasn't like you
[12:24.360 -> 12:28.960] know Steve you've done a terrible job here we need to get rid of you. It was it was very much
[12:29.680 -> 12:33.560] Steve you've done the right thing. You've done you absolutely have done the right thing
[12:33.560 -> 12:40.120] You've negotiated a really great outcome for the company, but the right thing for the company now is for you to leave
[12:40.920 -> 12:48.280] that probably to be honest that probably took me a few years to fully
[12:48.280 -> 12:52.380] compute from a personal perspective. I mean I'm quite a rational person so at
[12:52.380 -> 12:58.180] the time I sort of it was all very rational. The emotional part probably
[12:58.180 -> 13:02.080] came over the course the next few years because what I did was I left GC and
[13:02.080 -> 13:10.080] then I went I did some consulting. So for a couple of years, I worked with a friend of mine and we just did sort of troubleshooting
[13:10.080 -> 13:11.180] consulting.
[13:11.180 -> 13:14.840] We took advantage of the fact we've got this restructuring experience and we just sort
[13:14.840 -> 13:17.000] of touted ourselves around as experts.
[13:17.000 -> 13:24.280] And I remember one of the bankers said to me when I was leaving, you'll never work in
[13:24.280 -> 13:25.840] London again, you're finished.
[13:25.840 -> 13:32.360] And I thought, well that's a bit unnecessary, you know I mean, really. But that bank was
[13:32.360 -> 13:38.520] really, particularly, they didn't like the agreement, they didn't like the final structure
[13:38.520 -> 13:42.560] we'd come up with. So I remember I went and did my consulting, etc. And then I thought,
[13:42.560 -> 13:47.520] you know what, I want to have another crack at this. I was you know, this was what I wanted to do
[13:47.520 -> 13:50.320] I wanted to be a public company CFO. I thought I can't leave it there
[13:50.320 -> 13:55.200] I can't just that can't be the way I sort of finish if you like my public company
[13:55.640 -> 13:59.860] Carissa thought no, I'm good. I want to do that again. I couldn't get a big
[14:00.380 -> 14:04.880] Futsi 100 job. So I went to a company that was Futsi 250 a bit smaller
[14:06.000 -> 14:08.960] Did that for a couple of years then I went to a company that was FTSE 250, a bit smaller, did that for a couple of years, then I went to a company called Inventus which was on the
[14:08.960 -> 14:15.160] verge of being FTSE 100, became FTSE 100. So I did another two public company CFO
[14:15.160 -> 14:22.000] jobs and that was part of me proving to myself and I guess also indirectly
[14:22.000 -> 14:26.120] others that I had a lot to offer. I wanted to come back and show that I and I guess also indirectly others, that
[14:23.240 -> 14:29.240] I had a lot to offer. I wanted to come
[14:26.120 -> 14:31.960] back and show that I could win people
[14:29.240 -> 14:33.600] over and I could, you know, it wasn't my
[14:31.960 -> 14:36.040] fault that we'd ended up in that
[14:33.600 -> 14:38.200] situation. What I was trying to do was
[14:36.040 -> 14:40.880] protect or do the best job I could for
[14:38.200 -> 14:41.880] all stakeholders, which basically meant
[14:40.880 -> 14:43.760] none of the stakeholders were
[14:41.880 -> 14:45.320] particularly happy. Toby Cullen-So can I come back to
[14:43.760 -> 14:47.520] that comment then from that banker that tells you that you'll never work in London again?
[14:47.520 -> 14:50.400] You can disagree without being disagreeable.
[14:50.400 -> 14:50.900] Yeah.
[14:50.900 -> 14:58.800] So maybe people weren't happy with what you'd negotiated when you were trying to represent the company and save all those jobs.
[14:58.800 -> 15:05.040] But then that sounds like that banker has taken your
[15:02.960 -> 15:07.760] disagreement about what the best way to
[15:05.040 -> 15:10.480] restructure the loan is and made
[15:07.760 -> 15:13.200] it disagreeable. Yes, I made it very
[15:10.480 -> 15:16.360] personal. So where do you stand on that?
[15:13.200 -> 15:19.040] Yeah I think you know you it's very
[15:16.360 -> 15:22.360] important and it's an important part of
[15:19.040 -> 15:28.760] high performance to have differing views, to challenge and to explore the right outcome for a
[15:28.760 -> 15:36.480] particular situation and as soon as you become somebody who is only interested
[15:36.480 -> 15:41.360] in the outcome for you personally, well then you're not contributing to that
[15:41.360 -> 15:46.120] wider discussion are you? So you as you say
[15:44.080 -> 15:47.600] that is a really good phrase you you're
[15:46.120 -> 15:49.840] becoming disagreeable because you're
[15:47.600 -> 15:52.000] making it a personal thing. Now for me
[15:49.840 -> 15:54.880] you know if you take this situation that
[15:52.000 -> 15:57.840] I'm talking about there were thousands
[15:54.880 -> 15:58.920] and thousands of stakeholders including
[15:57.840 -> 16:01.760] all the people who worked in the
[15:58.920 -> 16:05.160] company. This one banker is just one
[16:01.760 -> 16:05.720] player who has a particular view about what works for
[16:05.720 -> 16:11.200] them. Now that person got overruled because the wider banking group approved
[16:11.200 -> 16:16.480] the deal and so this person was particularly upset about something for
[16:16.480 -> 16:20.820] them personally. That's not acceptable, that's not that's not behavior that you
[16:20.820 -> 16:31.720] know any of us want. You have to ultimately sign up to collective you know responsibility can't always one person can't veto the whole thing it
[16:31.720 -> 16:35.640] doesn't doesn't work we talk a lot about a culture in business these days
[16:35.640 -> 16:38.720] obviously you've got some big learnings there and I wonder how much those
[16:38.720 -> 16:42.920] moments those personal moments that perhaps sense of injustice when you when
[16:42.920 -> 16:47.640] you left GEC and a few other moments in your career I wonder how much they inform the kind of culture
[16:47.640 -> 16:51.400] that you tried to create in your business now. I think the first thing to say is
[16:51.400 -> 16:56.440] you know Sage we serve small mid-sized businesses so my my customers are all
[16:56.440 -> 17:02.160] small mid-sized businesses so I spend a lot of time talking to small mid-sized
[17:02.160 -> 17:05.000] businesses a lot of my friends run small mid-sized businesses a
[17:02.920 -> 17:08.720] lot of my friends run small mid-sized
[17:05.000 -> 17:12.680] businesses and so thinking about what's
[17:08.720 -> 17:15.000] important to them and the tone they set
[17:12.680 -> 17:16.960] within their businesses is also an
[17:15.000 -> 17:19.520] important ingredient for me right because
[17:16.960 -> 17:23.240] that's who I'm serving so I believe that
[17:19.520 -> 17:25.200] you know humility and you know being
[17:23.240 -> 17:27.320] humble and not being too self-centered is an important
[17:27.320 -> 17:30.240] part of the culture that I've sought to create.
[17:30.240 -> 17:35.360] But even if you didn't think that was the right thing to do, if you didn't have that,
[17:35.360 -> 17:37.440] you would struggle to serve your customers.
[17:37.440 -> 17:46.520] Small mid-sized businesses generally are people who have gone into business, they have multiple different reasons for doing it.
[17:46.520 -> 17:48.360] You know, not everyone sets up a small business
[17:48.360 -> 17:50.480] because they want to become super wealthy.
[17:50.480 -> 17:53.340] They do it for a whole variety of different reasons.
[17:53.340 -> 17:56.600] And if you go into a conversation with a customer
[17:56.600 -> 18:00.300] and they think it's all about you and not them,
[18:00.300 -> 18:01.920] that's not the relationship they're looking for.
[18:01.920 -> 18:02.840] They don't like it.
[18:03.840 -> 18:05.160] You know, look, I'm from the north, right?
[18:05.160 -> 18:07.500] You know, I mean in Yorkshire if you start a
[18:08.740 -> 18:10.420] conversation about
[18:10.420 -> 18:16.640] Yourself rather than the person you're talking to it immediately puts people in the wrong frame of mind
[18:16.640 -> 18:21.480] So I felt you know see I the culture I've tried to create is yes
[18:21.480 -> 18:25.640] It's high-performing, but it's high-performing in a very it's
[18:25.640 -> 18:32.040] respectful right behaviors matter values matter how you treat people matters when
[18:32.040 -> 18:36.700] I first became CEO sage when my predecessor left the chairman said to me
[18:36.700 -> 18:42.700] we're going to run a an external search do you want to be a candidate and I said
[18:42.700 -> 18:46.300] you know I'm not sure I do I'm not sure I really want to be CEO
[18:46.820 -> 18:51.240] Because I think we've lost the dressing room a bit and I was part of that, you know
[18:51.240 -> 18:57.020] I was this I was the CFO so I wasn't the CEO but I was still part of the team that I felt where we'd
[18:57.020 -> 18:59.500] We'd kind of lost a little wine. How would that happen?
[18:59.500 -> 19:09.040] I just think we'd lost the hearts and minds because it had become the performance was starting to drift so we were going through a big transformation
[19:09.040 -> 19:13.600] transformations are all about highs and lows right they do not go smoothly and
[19:13.600 -> 19:17.800] we were going through one of those periods where things weren't landing it
[19:17.800 -> 19:23.060] wasn't working we ended up having to do a profit warning and then we got into we
[19:23.060 -> 19:30.320] got into a bit of finger-point pointing instead of really owning it and as a team really figuring out what was
[19:30.320 -> 19:36.840] going wrong we got into a bit of a spiral around whose fault it was and all
[19:36.840 -> 19:41.160] this sort of stuff and so I said to the chairman I'm not sure I'm the right
[19:41.160 -> 19:45.400] person to sort that out but you know I'll do the job on an interim basis
[19:45.540 -> 19:49.740] You go kind of figure out, you know, who's the best person to do it?
[19:49.740 -> 19:53.160] And then I decided whilst I was interim
[19:53.160 -> 19:58.120] I was going to focus only on internal because I felt that was the issue. So actually in those first three months
[19:58.120 -> 20:01.520] I didn't really speak to any customers. I didn't do any
[20:02.520 -> 20:04.880] External interviews. I just traveled around
[20:07.760 -> 20:12.040] I didn't do any external interviews. I just traveled around talking to people. I did loads of skip levels. So I didn't just talk to senior people. I walked around the offices, all open
[20:12.040 -> 20:16.640] plan. I walked up to people, I talked to them. I just talked to as many people as I could.
[20:16.640 -> 20:23.240] And as I was doing that, I thought, I think I get this. I think I'm starting to know what
[20:23.240 -> 20:27.280] the issue is here. I think I could maybe do something and there was this pivotal moment, I'll never forget,
[20:27.280 -> 20:31.360] I was in Atlanta, which is our headquarters of our US business.
[20:31.360 -> 20:35.320] I was doing all hands, it was probably a couple of hundred people there.
[20:35.320 -> 20:40.880] And I'd settled on this format where instead of presenting, I would just let someone interview
[20:40.880 -> 20:41.880] me.
[20:41.880 -> 20:48.480] So this guy Terence was interviewing me and he said, oh, we have a can we have an update where are we on the CEO search?
[20:48.480 -> 20:55.000] And I gave one of these kind of pretty pathetic slightly political answers.
[20:55.000 -> 21:02.800] Doing what we can, it's a long process, we've got to get it right, you know, gotta find the best person dadidadida. Anyway he sort of
[21:02.800 -> 21:05.480] interrupted me and he said, have you applied? Are you
[21:05.480 -> 21:09.520] a candidate? And I said, no, no, no, I don't look, I don't think I'm the right person.
[21:09.520 -> 21:14.920] I think we need to find somebody really experienced in the industry, etc. And he said, well, I
[21:14.920 -> 21:19.040] think you'll find this 200 people in this room who if you decided to be CEO, they'd
[21:19.040 -> 21:26.560] be right behind you. And they all started clapping. And I thought wow okay so I went back to the
[21:26.560 -> 21:30.680] chairman and I said well look if you find somebody who's amazing obviously
[21:30.680 -> 21:35.520] fine but I'm softening now it might be something I want to I want to do and
[21:35.520 -> 21:40.440] then the headhunter who was doing it ended up saying to the to the board look
[21:40.440 -> 21:45.660] we found you a few candidates but the truth is the best candidate is Steve. You should give him the job
[21:45.880 -> 21:51.080] So I took it and the first year or so I found it really really hard
[21:51.360 -> 21:54.960] really harder than the interim so much harder because I
[21:55.480 -> 22:02.040] Hadn't really prepared myself if that makes sense because I hadn't intended to do the job. So I think the board
[22:03.360 -> 22:08.520] Expected me to have this master plan whereas actually I
[22:08.520 -> 22:12.980] didn't really have a master plan other than I had this sort of slightly loose
[22:12.980 -> 22:19.600] idea that I was going to persuade 12,000 people to buy into what we were trying
[22:19.600 -> 22:25.160] to do. You know we want to be one of the leading tech companies in Europe our
[22:25.160 -> 22:29.600] purpose actually is to knock down barriers so everyone can thrive so
[22:29.600 -> 22:34.720] whether that be our customers whether that be colleagues internally whether
[22:34.720 -> 22:41.760] that be society etc we're here to do good right and so creating an emotional
[22:41.760 -> 22:48.340] connection you get the best out of people when people think wow, this is cool. I want to do this
[22:48.340 -> 22:50.480] Yeah, I mean what's not to like?
[22:51.240 -> 22:57.280] Supporting small mid-sized businesses around the world to flourish. I mean that that's a that's a pretty cool thing to do
[22:57.480 -> 22:59.920] So I spent the whole first year pretty much
[23:00.960 -> 23:05.560] Doing what I did in the first three months, which is traveling around a lot trying to win people over. I
[23:06.160 -> 23:09.620] Spent a lot of time looking at if we're going to have values
[23:10.480 -> 23:14.920] They need to mean something you go so many places where the values are on the wall
[23:14.920 -> 23:17.780] And then if you covered them up and ask people what they were
[23:18.440 -> 23:23.820] They'd be like so I said we got to a point where we said we're going to have
[23:23.820 -> 23:24.920] So I said we got to a point where we said we're gonna have
[23:30.040 -> 23:30.600] Subvalues we're gonna have four values, but we're gonna have this overriding value, which is we do the right thing
[23:35.200 -> 23:35.960] So and I use that all the time if we're making decisions. We're talking about something. I'll often say to people
[23:37.960 -> 23:38.800] Do you think that's the right thing to do?
[23:43.900 -> 23:45.280] Morally, right? Yeah, morally, right. Is it right for all our stakeholders, right? So people will
[23:45.280 -> 23:48.880] sometimes say you can't you can't do something equally for all your
[23:48.880 -> 23:56.160] stakeholders. No, no, you can't. So colleagues, customers, society, shareholders,
[23:56.160 -> 24:00.960] they're my four stakeholders. So if we're doing something, is it the right thing
[24:00.960 -> 24:08.080] for those four? Sometimes there's a trade-off, but if there's a trade-off, be honest that there's a trade-off.
[24:08.080 -> 24:13.160] So we might do something for a customer, for customers, where we say, well, in the short
[24:13.160 -> 24:18.080] term, that doesn't really enhance colleagues' experience because they've got to do something
[24:18.080 -> 24:23.240] which is a bit harder, it's a bit more inconvenient for them, but we're doing it because it's
[24:23.240 -> 24:27.820] the right thing for the customer and we know that we will be able to resolve it for the colleague in
[24:27.820 -> 24:34.580] due course. And if you're getting close to the edges, so if someone goes, well, not sure
[24:34.580 -> 24:40.220] whether it's the right thing. Well, it's probably not then, is it? Because you kind of know.
[24:40.220 -> 24:52.600] Now we then have guiding principles of it's got to be human. So, in an increasingly digital world, yes, lots of interactions are digital, but we're
[24:52.600 -> 24:54.340] human beings.
[24:54.340 -> 24:56.660] We serve small mid-sized businesses.
[24:56.660 -> 24:57.660] They are people.
[24:57.660 -> 24:58.660] They're not corporates.
[24:58.660 -> 25:04.080] They're not faceless corporates with ever-changing people.
[25:04.080 -> 25:06.240] Most of our customers, you go and see them year after
[25:06.240 -> 25:08.960] year after year, well it's often the same
[25:08.960 -> 25:11.800] person because it's their business. They
[25:11.800 -> 25:15.120] employ their family, their friends, these
[25:15.120 -> 25:17.280] are human beings and if you treat them
[25:17.280 -> 25:19.920] with respect and you treat them as human
[25:19.920 -> 25:22.080] beings and you engage with them, guess
[25:22.080 -> 25:24.880] what? People tend to work with you for
[25:24.880 -> 25:29.200] longer. You know we talk about customer for life, it's a genuine thing, customer
[25:29.200 -> 25:33.480] for life, because if you're dealing with small mid-sized businesses and you serve
[25:33.480 -> 25:37.460] them well and you look after them and you make their lives easier, they do stay
[25:37.460 -> 25:42.280] with you for life. Can I ask you, you said I had to go around and win people over,
[25:42.280 -> 25:46.520] you know, win hearts and minds, It's something that a lot of people struggle with
[25:46.520 -> 25:47.080] Yeah
[25:47.080 -> 25:52.080] Would you mind sharing some advice for people listening to this who are in a position where they need to go and win people?
[25:52.080 -> 25:56.800] Over they need to share their message or make people feel empowered or bring people on the journey
[25:56.800 -> 26:03.060] What what do you do that? Yeah, I tell you there's a few things I found quite hard initially about being CEO
[26:03.680 -> 26:07.200] I'm an introvert and actually that
[26:07.200 -> 26:11.720] was one of the barriers initially that when I thought about being a public company CEO
[26:11.720 -> 26:16.240] I was like well I won't be able to do it. I'm happy to be out of my comfort zone but
[26:16.240 -> 26:21.720] this is a step too far. So even doing something like this or doing external interviews. I
[26:21.720 -> 26:25.440] remember the first time I went on TV, I mean I was just,
[26:25.440 -> 26:32.680] you know, in such a state. I mean because I just mentally... So, when I talk about winning
[26:32.680 -> 26:41.480] people over, that means walking in to a big office, open plan office, hundreds of people,
[26:41.480 -> 26:46.000] and it means walking down that floor
[26:43.200 -> 26:49.720] and it means going up to people and
[26:46.000 -> 26:52.480] talking to them. Set pieces are important
[26:49.720 -> 26:58.360] so all hands meetings but they're all
[26:52.480 -> 27:01.000] orchestrated. If you walk a floor the more
[26:58.360 -> 27:02.680] junior the person you speak to when you
[27:01.000 -> 27:05.520] haven't warned them you're going to speak
[27:02.680 -> 27:08.640] to them the more honest they are right? What's the best question that you find elicits a great answer?
[27:08.640 -> 27:15.040] I always try and I follow a similar pattern, I always say to people, so how's it
[27:15.040 -> 27:20.160] going, what's working well for you? And then I laugh and I always say, what I
[27:20.160 -> 27:23.640] really want to know is, what's not working so well? You know, you got a
[27:23.640 -> 27:26.600] chance to tell the CEO what's not working so well. You know you got a chance to
[27:24.080 -> 27:29.120] tell the CEO what's not working so well.
[27:26.600 -> 27:32.080] So you have to build up a bit of trust. I
[27:29.120 -> 27:34.560] sometimes do it in a slightly jovial way
[27:32.080 -> 27:37.520] as well. I'll say if you were me for the
[27:34.560 -> 27:40.240] day and you had a magic wand and you had
[27:37.520 -> 27:42.480] my my CEO powers what would you do with
[27:40.240 -> 27:43.720] them? And what tends to be the most
[27:42.480 -> 27:47.360] common response you get to that
[27:43.720 -> 27:51.120] question? For most people there will be
[27:47.360 -> 27:53.360] something locally which is really
[27:51.120 -> 27:54.480] getting on their nerves, it's not
[27:53.360 -> 27:57.880] normally big things. I'll give you an
[27:54.480 -> 27:59.680] example, I was in South Africa a few
[27:57.880 -> 28:01.960] weeks ago and I did exactly this, I was
[27:59.680 -> 28:03.840] walking around, I said what what's the
[28:01.960 -> 28:05.960] thing that's kind of getting under your
[28:03.840 -> 28:06.480] skin at
[28:04.200 -> 28:08.560] the moment and this lady said to me I
[28:06.480 -> 28:13.000] don't understand why you took away the
[28:08.560 -> 28:15.480] fund budget. I was like right what are you
[28:13.000 -> 28:16.840] okay yeah so what can you
[28:15.480 -> 28:18.800] explain what do you mean what do you
[28:16.840 -> 28:21.320] mean I took away the fund budget and she
[28:18.800 -> 28:24.120] said we used to have a budget quite a small
[28:21.320 -> 28:26.920] budget which meant that we had total
[28:24.120 -> 28:25.760] freedom locally to
[28:25.760 -> 28:31.000] decide if we wanted to do have a few you know pizzas a few beers we wanted to
[28:31.000 -> 28:35.360] have a bit of an event take people out bowling or whatever we had a local
[28:35.360 -> 28:42.440] budget and it's gone and I said right where's it gone and she said well you've
[28:42.440 -> 28:45.400] taken it away Steve you you've made it all global.
[28:47.140 -> 28:52.280] And I said, thank you. That's really, really valuable feedback because I know exactly how that's happened.
[28:52.720 -> 28:54.400] It's a completely unintended consequence.
[28:54.660 -> 28:58.840] We didn't intend to do it that way, but what's happened is as we've gone to be a
[28:58.840 -> 29:03.760] more global company and we've gone more into global functions, these things that
[29:03.760 -> 29:10.880] were held locally have got swept up into global cost centers. And so for that person at
[29:10.880 -> 29:16.000] the sharp end sitting in South Africa working long hours and I don't know, I mean
[29:16.000 -> 29:19.560] at the moment South Africa they're having power cuts all the time etc. So they have
[29:19.560 -> 29:24.600] all these things that, all these headwinds against them and the thing we'd
[29:24.600 -> 29:25.320] done to most upset them was the thing we'd done to
[29:25.320 -> 29:29.540] most upset them was the fact that when they're in the office they're now told
[29:29.540 -> 29:35.000] they can't just order out for pizzas so that's an easy... but I would never...
[29:35.000 -> 29:38.880] yeah so we fixed that we're now putting those fund budgets back in if I didn't
[29:38.880 -> 29:44.800] travel around no senior person is ever going to give me that feedback are they?
[29:44.800 -> 29:45.160] ever right? the only person is going to give me that feedback. Are they?
[29:45.160 -> 29:46.160] Ever, right?
[29:46.160 -> 29:48.520] The only person who's going to give you that feedback is the person on the ground.
[29:48.520 -> 29:53.720] I remember talking to a customer as well, who I think was paying us £10 a month.
[29:53.720 -> 29:58.000] And she was like, but you're the global CEO, you know, I pay you £10 a month, why are
[29:58.000 -> 29:59.000] you ringing me?
[29:59.000 -> 30:01.000] Because I want to know what your experience is, right?
[30:01.000 -> 30:08.120] I said, can you imagine as the global CEO? Does anybody ever really give me honest feedback?
[30:08.920 -> 30:15.500] About how my smallest of customers feels so you're one of my smaller customers. I want to know what it feels
[30:16.300 -> 30:23.680] To be a small customer in search because if I talk to our biggest customer who gets loads of attention from the account management
[30:23.760 -> 30:27.680] Teams, etc. They're probably going gonna tell me it's a pretty good experience I want to
[30:27.680 -> 30:32.000] know what your experience is like you just learn so much don't you when you do
[30:32.000 -> 30:39.600] that but is that my comfort zone no as I've done more and more of it I really
[30:39.600 -> 30:44.160] enjoy it now because it's really interesting but the first time I did it
[30:44.160 -> 30:48.960] I was worried exactly what either a colleague or a customer would say I was thinking
[30:48.960 -> 30:52.180] well God you know they'll have a list of demands I mean though what am I going to
[30:52.180 -> 30:55.720] do I'll have to I'll have to respond to it and I don't know how to but of course
[30:55.720 -> 31:00.220] the truth is most people are very very nice and polite and they tell you the
[31:00.220 -> 31:10.280] truth but they're not aggressive they're not not, they don't, they see it as a, the fact that you've made the effort, they think is amazing, and so they tend
[31:10.280 -> 31:14.440] to take advantage of that and just give you a honest feedback.
[31:14.440 -> 31:18.320] Steve- See what I'm struck by there is, you spoke about the purpose of the business is
[31:18.320 -> 31:23.480] removing barriers for people to thrive and you're removing barriers to find out
[31:23.480 -> 31:27.100] the truth, so you're role modeling the purpose of the business,
[31:27.100 -> 31:29.300] which I see the importance of.
[31:29.300 -> 31:31.900] But I'm also intrigued by this idea of you phoning up
[31:31.900 -> 31:33.300] the 10 pound a month customer,
[31:33.300 -> 31:36.600] because I think one of my big frustrations
[31:36.600 -> 31:40.300] when I go into businesses is how people scale up a problem
[31:40.300 -> 31:42.100] and they'll go, can't do that mate, why not?
[31:42.100 -> 31:44.000] Health and safety said, and then you say,
[31:44.000 -> 31:45.880] what's the name of the health and safety manager?
[31:45.880 -> 31:48.080] And they don't know, but it's a catch all term
[31:48.080 -> 31:49.840] that means that we don't have to do it.
[31:49.840 -> 31:51.960] And you're almost a great example
[31:51.960 -> 31:55.440] of that South Africa equivalent of can't do the fund budget,
[31:55.440 -> 31:57.000] why Steve's taken it away.
[31:57.000 -> 32:00.800] So it becomes about you and you often don't even know
[32:00.800 -> 32:03.320] decisions being made in your name.
[32:03.320 -> 32:06.920] How do you stop people now getting wise to
[32:06.920 -> 32:10.600] you? I'm talking about amongst your team where they almost give you the sanitized
[32:10.600 -> 32:13.760] version of Steve you go and speak to them people because they'll tell you
[32:13.760 -> 32:17.440] what you want to hear. How do you avoid that echo chamber as a CEO?
[32:17.440 -> 32:23.000] Steven Leeds Yeah so it's it can be a bit of a challenge because obviously not everything I do is
[32:23.000 -> 32:27.480] random right so if I take that example of the small customer,
[32:27.480 -> 32:29.480] we tend to schedule the calls now
[32:29.480 -> 32:31.820] because what I've discovered is
[32:31.820 -> 32:35.360] if I ring a customer completely out of the blue,
[32:35.360 -> 32:38.360] it takes me a while to convince them that it's me, right?
[32:38.360 -> 32:40.480] And so it's just, it's wasted time.
[32:40.480 -> 32:43.640] And actually people get a bit intimidated
[32:43.640 -> 32:44.800] when someone rings.
[32:44.800 -> 32:45.880] So we do tend to schedule
[32:45.880 -> 32:51.160] them now and so that means that someone is making a decision about who I speak to. So
[32:51.160 -> 32:56.880] I give a lot of feedback about, no I want this type of customer or I want these customers
[32:56.880 -> 33:02.080] to be selected more randomly etc. And it's the same when I'm traveling. Because I walk
[33:02.080 -> 33:05.320] out onto the floor, nobody can control who I speak to because I walk out onto
[33:02.600 -> 33:07.920] the floor nobody can control who I
[33:05.320 -> 33:09.960] speak to because I decide it's
[33:07.920 -> 33:12.440] completely random I just wander around
[33:09.960 -> 33:15.840] and also I've been CEO for four years
[33:12.440 -> 33:18.760] now so so hopefully I've built up a bit of
[33:15.840 -> 33:21.280] trust that people know that they can
[33:18.760 -> 33:23.600] tell me things and of course I don't
[33:21.280 -> 33:26.360] guarantee that just because somebody
[33:23.600 -> 33:25.760] tells me something that I
[33:25.760 -> 33:27.000] will do what they want.
[33:27.000 -> 33:30.680] I mean in this particular example I gave you about the fund budget, the person was right
[33:30.680 -> 33:32.440] and so I actioned it.
[33:32.440 -> 33:37.400] But there are other examples when someone will say to me, well I really think you should
[33:37.400 -> 33:41.880] replace this system because I don't like this system.
[33:41.880 -> 33:46.680] You know and then I go back to them and say well we chose that system for a reason and if you take the
[33:46.680 -> 33:50.240] total system infrastructure this is why
[33:50.240 -> 33:51.680] it makes sense and so it might be
[33:51.680 -> 33:53.920] slightly inconvenient for you but in the
[33:53.920 -> 33:57.540] total it it's better so you also have to
[33:57.540 -> 34:02.240] be prepared to listen but say okay but
[34:02.240 -> 34:04.440] having listened I'm this is why I'm not
[34:04.440 -> 34:05.640] going to do anything about it
[34:05.760 -> 34:09.740] What people don't like has been ignored. So if someone gives you feedback and
[34:10.360 -> 34:14.640] Then you go back a year later and they go, you know, I gave you some feedback a year ago
[34:14.640 -> 34:16.080] No, did anything happen?
[34:16.080 -> 34:22.600] That's what really frustrates people if you explain the context people accept that I have to make choices
[34:23.120 -> 34:24.520] Everything's not going to be perfect
[34:24.520 -> 34:25.360] I can't fix everything
[34:25.360 -> 34:30.440] all at once. And so when you build up a bit of trust, people trust that I make the decision.
[34:30.440 -> 34:33.200] Steve I mean that's a term that you've used a lot,
[34:33.200 -> 34:38.640] it's a small word but it does add a lot of the heavy lifting, trust. And it's obviously
[34:38.640 -> 34:43.800] hugely important to you. Would you tell us a little bit about what you understand trust
[34:43.800 -> 34:45.080] to be?
[34:45.080 -> 34:50.120] You have to do what you say you're gonna do. So if you say you're going to do
[34:50.120 -> 34:56.440] something and then you don't do it, people think well so it doesn't really
[34:56.440 -> 35:00.040] mean it does he doesn't really mean what he's saying and I think particularly
[35:00.040 -> 35:02.640] when you're going through a lot of change going through a lot of
[35:02.640 -> 35:07.200] transformation you have to make a lot of choices you have to through a lot of change, going through a lot of transformation, you have to make a lot of choices, you have to make a lot of
[35:07.200 -> 35:14.000] decisions. Lack of clarity and lack of accountability where people don't really
[35:14.000 -> 35:19.800] do what they say is a real enemy of getting things done. We had a period
[35:19.800 -> 35:25.620] where we got somebody to help us create greater clarity over what we were trying to do
[35:25.620 -> 35:28.780] because we had a best endeavors culture,
[35:28.780 -> 35:31.020] which means that we have a nice culture in search.
[35:31.020 -> 35:32.580] People don't like to,
[35:32.580 -> 35:34.180] they always say, if you say, oh, can you do that?
[35:34.180 -> 35:36.820] People say, yeah, yeah, I'll see what I can do.
[35:36.820 -> 35:38.060] Well, what does that mean?
[35:39.060 -> 35:43.620] So if you're overloaded and you just keep telling everybody,
[35:43.620 -> 35:45.520] I'll see what I can do, you can then choose which bits you do. And then when you don't do them and you just keep telling everybody, I'll see what I can do.
[35:45.520 -> 35:47.480] You can then choose which bits you do.
[35:47.480 -> 35:49.020] And then when you don't do them, you just say,
[35:49.020 -> 35:50.720] well, you know, I'm overloaded.
[35:50.720 -> 35:52.560] Well, that's not high performance.
[35:52.560 -> 35:56.960] High performance is about saying, I can't do that.
[35:56.960 -> 36:00.880] So no, I'm not gonna do that, but I can do this.
[36:00.880 -> 36:02.560] Or look, that's not a priority.
[36:02.560 -> 36:04.180] I'm not doing that at the moment.
[36:04.180 -> 36:09.560] It's being open and honest with each other other but it's being accountable to each other
[36:09.560 -> 36:14.320] so sometimes you get this kind of hierarchical structure which we do still
[36:14.320 -> 36:19.400] have a little bit of where if in doubt push it up get the senior people to make
[36:19.400 -> 36:26.200] the decision and then push it back down actually what you need is on the pitch on a day-to-day basis
[36:26.480 -> 36:28.480] You need people to make decisions, right?
[36:29.360 -> 36:31.360] because the coach
[36:31.480 -> 36:34.680] Can't be jumping on the pitch during the game, right?
[36:34.680 -> 36:38.500] The people who are there the people on the phone to the customer
[36:39.200 -> 36:41.840] If every time the customers says something they go
[36:41.840 -> 36:48.720] I've just checked with my boss on that one or I'll get back to you and then three days later when I get customers
[36:48.720 -> 36:55.060] writing to me it's nearly always because they've been passed around and it's
[36:55.060 -> 36:59.420] taken too long it's very rare actually that a customer complains that we've
[36:59.420 -> 37:08.400] sort of treated them badly and refused to address their concerns. If you can first time resolve something in the moment,
[37:08.400 -> 37:12.000] people feel so much better about that. Even if it's not entirely to their
[37:12.000 -> 37:14.720] satisfaction, if you solve it in the moment, people
[37:14.720 -> 37:17.600] feel good about that. If you're still messing around with it
[37:17.600 -> 37:20.640] two weeks later and you've spoken to seven different people,
[37:20.640 -> 37:24.160] which is what happens in a low accountability culture, that doesn't
[37:24.160 -> 37:28.900] deliver great experience. So let's talk about creating this high accountability
[37:28.900 -> 37:32.540] culture, which let's be honest comes down to recruitment. I mean every business is
[37:32.540 -> 37:37.220] a recruitment business. I know that you have a sort of no stars approach, even at
[37:37.220 -> 37:41.380] the highest level. I'd love to talk about the waiter or the waitress test as well
[37:41.380 -> 37:46.180] if you're if you're happy to. So you recruit what you look for in the culture that it
[37:46.180 -> 37:50.900] Therefore creates we all have an ego to some degree, right?
[37:50.900 -> 37:57.060] I mean, it's part of what what drives us to achieve but it has to start with it has to start with the team
[37:57.060 -> 38:02.140] I have a number of people who work for me who are very, you know, they're all very talented people
[38:02.700 -> 38:06.240] Known as very highing people within their craft
[38:07.160 -> 38:12.120] but you have to sign up to the team the team comes first and
[38:13.560 -> 38:18.460] Therefore how you treat each other within the team really really matters
[38:18.460 -> 38:23.300] And I've always always from a very early age had this
[38:23.880 -> 38:26.460] Way to test thing that I use which is
[38:26.460 -> 38:35.880] how do people treat someone who is serving them in a restaurant or a
[38:35.880 -> 38:40.120] receptionist you know when someone walks into an office do they say hello to the
[38:40.120 -> 38:43.940] receptionist or they just walk straight past them and ignore them you want to
[38:43.940 -> 38:49.120] be in my team you need to respect all people, right? So you need to
[38:49.120 -> 38:53.120] say hello to the receptionist. If you're in a restaurant and you've had a few
[38:53.120 -> 39:01.160] drinks and you start getting arsey with the waiter and speaking in an
[39:01.160 -> 39:06.280] obnoxious way, you can't work for me. Toby And how do you deal with that? Because I think we've all
[39:06.280 -> 39:09.720] seen it and been in that position and I sometimes I'm annoyed with myself for
[39:09.720 -> 39:17.040] thinking you're just a dick. But I don't say anything. Yeah, so what I do what I do now is I think
[39:17.040 -> 39:20.880] probably when I went when I was a bit younger I just sort of noted it. Yeah. I
[39:20.880 -> 39:25.620] didn't really do anything about it. If it's within my team environment,
[39:25.620 -> 39:30.960] I don't embarrass people in front of their peers, although increasingly, I hope within
[39:30.960 -> 39:35.720] my team environment that people call each other outside. You start to get a kind of
[39:35.720 -> 39:40.560] self-regulating behavior amongst the team. But what I do now is, you know, if it does
[39:40.560 -> 39:46.000] happen, I speak one-on-one and then it's all about how the person reacts, right?
[39:46.000 -> 39:49.000] If the person immediately goes, you're right.
[39:49.000 -> 39:51.000] How do you put it to them?
[39:51.000 -> 39:53.000] I describe the situation.
[39:53.000 -> 39:56.000] I say, you know, that incident, how do you feel about that?
[39:56.000 -> 39:58.000] Why did you speak to the person like that?
[39:58.000 -> 39:59.000] What was the reason?
[39:59.000 -> 40:01.000] If the person then becomes defensive and says,
[40:01.000 -> 40:05.720] well, you know, I was getting terrible service they deserved it I know that
[40:05.720 -> 40:07.400] we've got a problem right if they go no
[40:07.400 -> 40:09.440] you're right I'm sorry I'm tired yeah
[40:09.440 -> 40:11.280] it's been a bad day I'll go and
[40:11.280 -> 40:12.640] apologize to them you're absolutely
[40:12.640 -> 40:14.040] right thanks for pointing it out that's
[40:14.040 -> 40:15.600] the right behavior right we're not none
[40:15.600 -> 40:18.320] of us are perfect right we all under
[40:18.320 -> 40:21.640] pressure when we're tired can do things
[40:21.640 -> 40:24.520] that we wish we hadn't done and it may
[40:24.520 -> 40:26.360] not happen absolutely
[40:26.360 -> 40:30.840] immediately if you're if you're in a bit of an agitated state it may take till
[40:30.840 -> 40:34.680] the next day for you to reflect and go no guy he was so right I shouldn't have
[40:34.680 -> 40:40.340] done that right when I first became CEO the first leadership meeting we had
[40:40.340 -> 40:44.760] where we had the top 80 90 people in the room I was talking about culture and I
[40:44.760 -> 40:48.280] was talking about behaviors and I said every single person in this room is
[40:48.280 -> 40:52.660] talented otherwise you wouldn't be here. You're all capable really of doing what
[40:52.660 -> 40:56.280] you've been brought here to do but whether you stay here will be determined
[40:56.280 -> 41:00.740] not by your talent but by your attitude and if you don't live the values every
[41:00.740 -> 41:09.280] day, if I don't see you living and breathing and behaving in the way that we want you won't be here. So what are the values and we know we spoke
[41:09.280 -> 41:15.880] about the first one. So we have this overriding as I say you know we we do
[41:15.880 -> 41:23.400] the right thing. We're human, bold because if you if you don't push if you
[41:23.400 -> 41:28.320] don't push the boundaries you don't
[41:24.760 -> 41:30.960] try things you'll just achieve
[41:28.320 -> 41:33.880] mediocrity but you have to bring it all
[41:30.960 -> 41:36.800] back to the purpose of knocking down
[41:33.880 -> 41:40.400] barriers we're here to serve those four
[41:36.800 -> 41:43.520] stakeholders and how we do it is really
[41:40.400 -> 41:46.500] important and I think everyone knows it all starts with the top if if my
[41:46.500 -> 41:53.720] leadership team behave like this every day then it will filter down right now
[41:53.720 -> 41:59.200] do we all play together nicely every minute of the day no because when the
[41:59.200 -> 42:07.500] pressures on when you're driving hard to get stuff done it can be difficult sometimes not
[42:07.500 -> 42:12.340] to have slightly sharp elbows as you're trying to and this was I mean this is
[42:12.340 -> 42:17.000] something when I was younger I really wasn't that good I was very good at
[42:17.000 -> 42:20.260] getting stuff done I've always had a reputation for getting stuff done but
[42:20.260 -> 42:27.120] when I look back when I was younger, sometimes the way I got stuff done left collateral damage.
[42:27.120 -> 42:33.100] Because it's time consuming to, you know, high performance with kindness, right?
[42:33.100 -> 42:35.080] You need to respect people around you.
[42:35.080 -> 42:37.880] You need to spend time to explain to them the context.
[42:37.880 -> 42:49.540] It's much faster just to bulldoze right through, get stuff done and say hey I did my bit and you need someone at that point to point out to you. You know Steve
[42:49.540 -> 42:53.340] That's fantastic that you did that bit, but let's look over here
[42:53.940 -> 43:01.340] At the overall picture and because you did that we haven't done this have we so it's a bit like
[43:02.200 -> 43:04.740] How do you feel if you win?
[43:08.400 -> 43:09.400] the man of the match award, but the team lost?
[43:11.800 -> 43:12.400] It's meaningless. You didn't win.
[43:17.600 -> 43:18.200] Stevenson Can I pick up on one of those values you spoke about, which is about being bold and innovating? Karl Yeah.
[43:18.200 -> 43:25.080] Stevenson Because I think when you work through the logic of that, that means if people are pushing the envelope and go
[43:25.080 -> 43:28.400] into the edges of what they think is possible, there's going to be cock-ups
[43:28.400 -> 43:33.200] and mistakes that inevitably follow. And I'm interested in, as a leader, how do you
[43:33.200 -> 43:37.340] create that psychologically safe environment where people can make errors
[43:37.340 -> 43:41.940] and know that they're safe to do so without fear of the consequences.
[43:41.940 -> 43:47.640] What was the phrase Greg Hoffman, he was the former chief marketing officer of Nike, what did he say? He said failure is the price of ambition.
[43:47.640 -> 43:52.240] Yeah, it's a great phrase, great phrase. This is something that is, it is very much
[43:52.240 -> 43:56.760] work in progress. When I go around doing my skip levels, I still get quite a lot
[43:56.760 -> 44:03.200] of feedback that people are worried about making mistakes. I always say
[44:03.200 -> 44:05.480] whenever I get the opportunity, by
[44:05.480 -> 44:10.520] definition if we're pushing and we're trying to find new ways of doing things,
[44:10.520 -> 44:15.440] things are not going to turn out as we expected. And so I sometimes use that
[44:15.440 -> 44:20.440] phrase as well, say to people, look if it worries you to use the word mistake,
[44:20.440 -> 44:24.440] use that phrase. Well it didn't turn out how I was expecting. Well that's great
[44:24.440 -> 44:25.400] because now you've learned something
[44:25.400 -> 44:29.260] So now let's try something else, but don't keep doing the same thing, right?
[44:29.260 -> 44:34.940] So if you something doesn't turn out as you expected, well, don't repeat that particular experiment
[44:34.940 -> 44:36.980] Try a different one and try a different one
[44:36.980 -> 44:41.460] I mean if you talk to people, you know, who've invented things or people who are successful
[44:41.660 -> 44:47.740] There are very very few if, that turn their first idea
[44:47.740 -> 44:49.740] into something amazing.
[44:49.740 -> 44:56.500] Most people have had 20 ideas, 30 ideas, 40 ideas, and what they've done is they've, they
[44:56.500 -> 44:58.380] just keep iterating them.
[44:58.380 -> 45:05.880] So I've never fired somebody, ever, in my entire career for
[45:03.600 -> 45:07.600] making a mistake I nearly always ask
[45:05.880 -> 45:11.760] people to leave because of behaviors
[45:07.600 -> 45:13.240] or if they can't learn from the
[45:11.760 -> 45:16.000] experiment because if you don't have good
[45:13.240 -> 45:18.360] learning agility then you start
[45:16.000 -> 45:21.440] repeating that becomes a performance
[45:18.360 -> 45:23.080] issue but to achieve great things yeah
[45:21.440 -> 45:25.440] you you've got to make mistakes you've got
[45:23.080 -> 45:27.560] to have cockups I mean you know if I look back at my career you know in some of what we were
[45:27.560 -> 45:31.880] talking about in Marconi etc I mean there's there's been all sorts of things
[45:31.880 -> 45:36.640] that I've tried that didn't work out the way I intended but you keep going you
[45:36.640 -> 45:40.640] keep trying you try different things and eventually if you're focused on well
[45:40.640 -> 45:43.960] where am I trying to get to you've always got to kind of know what what am I
[45:43.960 -> 45:47.520] trying to achieve what's what's the point I'm trying to get to? You've always got to kind of know what am I trying to achieve? What's the point I'm trying to get to? And it's very
[45:47.520 -> 45:52.320] rare that the path that you take is the one you thought. So what would you say
[45:52.320 -> 45:55.400] has been your biggest mistake that's led to the biggest breakthrough in your
[45:55.400 -> 46:01.480] career Steve? Although the you know the the Marconi restructuring or ending up
[46:01.480 -> 46:06.920] with you know the amount of debt we had was not, you know, they were not my decisions.
[46:06.920 -> 46:08.920] I think I
[46:08.940 -> 46:15.820] went in that run-up to the dot-com crash. I was as guilty as anybody of being over optimistic.
[46:15.820 -> 46:20.240] So I said earlier, you know, you need to be when you're on the highs, don't get carried away.
[46:20.240 -> 46:28.480] And when you're in the lows, don't get too despondent. I think in the
[46:24.800 -> 46:32.440] late 90s running up to 2000 I think
[46:28.480 -> 46:37.440] everybody was on a massive massive high.
[46:32.440 -> 46:40.120] Everybody including me was slow really to
[46:37.440 -> 46:42.120] see the signs because we we thought this
[46:40.120 -> 46:45.160] would last forever and what that's done
[46:42.120 -> 46:51.220] is the learning that's given me now is when I go through these highs and lows when we're in the highs people will
[46:51.220 -> 46:55.060] often say that's when I'm asking questions it's when I'm starting to get
[46:55.060 -> 46:59.760] restless and people like oh I can't just enjoy the moment because I need to what's
[46:59.760 -> 47:03.740] coming what's coming what do we how what are we going to have to react to because
[47:03.740 -> 47:06.520] these things never quite last life's not linear
[47:06.520 -> 47:12.640] It's just not the way it is and then likewise the other thing I learned from what happened in Marconi is I?
[47:12.960 -> 47:20.040] Think I'm really really good now in a crisis or when things aren't going very well. Nobody wants to see the boss
[47:20.800 -> 47:26.120] Panicking do they nobody wants to see
[47:22.520 -> 47:28.280] the boss all hyper you know you you know
[47:26.120 -> 47:31.320] I learned very early that any signs of
[47:28.280 -> 47:34.480] anxiety from me are massively
[47:31.320 -> 47:37.160] multiplied across the organization and so
[47:34.480 -> 47:41.000] it's important that you you're clear
[47:37.160 -> 47:42.200] you're calm we all have anxiety right to
[47:41.000 -> 47:44.760] get high performance I think pretty
[47:42.200 -> 47:54.000] much everyone has anxiety, but you don't want to multiply that anxiety because too much anxiety can lead to poor performance, particularly if it's multiplied across the whole organization.
[47:54.000 -> 48:06.440] I remember one, somebody saying to me, the way to get high performance, Steve, is everyone who works for you needs to be constantly anxious that you're gonna fire them. I think that is completely the wrong
[48:07.040 -> 48:11.060] Approach to high performance, but that was a little bit. I was in the 90s
[48:11.060 -> 48:12.000] I remember in 90s
[48:12.000 -> 48:14.400] It was like keep them on their toes, you know
[48:14.400 -> 48:19.820] And then they'll they'll perform and that leads me to the final question before we go into our quick fires at the end of the interview
[48:19.820 -> 48:24.260] Which is we're very careful in this podcast in this era of hustle culture and you know
[48:24.260 -> 48:25.000] Push yourself to the limit,
[48:25.000 -> 48:29.000] burn the candle at both ends, and chase your passion, and never rest.
[48:29.000 -> 48:32.000] About saying actually that's not what high performance is.
[48:32.000 -> 48:34.000] I would just love to hear from you about creating boundaries,
[48:34.000 -> 48:40.000] what you've done to make sure that, you know, life at Sage and business life is not your entire life.
[48:40.000 -> 48:43.000] Yeah, I think balance is really, really important.
[48:43.000 -> 48:48.660] I think to be successful on something, you have have to be you do have to be all in but all in doesn't mean
[48:49.580 -> 48:52.080] 24-7 my life is not
[48:53.320 -> 48:56.840] 24-7 of high performance, you know when I when I'm at home, I
[48:57.440 -> 49:05.040] Treasure the time that I have at home with my with my wife my kids the family and of course look things can happen
[49:05.040 -> 49:10.320] right there can be a crisis which requires me to to get involved and
[49:10.320 -> 49:18.080] intervene. I don't plan on the basis that my team need to be available 24-7. You
[49:18.080 -> 49:23.920] know I have people in my team who have young kids they need to be able to
[49:23.920 -> 49:26.740] create the boundaries so that they
[49:26.740 -> 49:31.120] can go and see their kids at a sports day, they can take their kids to school, they can
[49:31.120 -> 49:37.800] do... because it's all about the outcome, it's about balancing so that you're fit for
[49:37.800 -> 49:47.280] the big moments. And I think when I was younger, I thought I could work flat-out not really have that much balance and I
[49:47.280 -> 49:51.440] remember one of the things I regret a little bit is when I was younger I was I
[49:51.440 -> 49:55.240] wasn't I'm still not great at it but I was terrible at being present so I would
[49:55.240 -> 50:01.480] I would say right okay I'll go to this event right go and see my son at a
[50:01.480 -> 50:09.440] sports day or whatever but then when I got there I wasn't there right I was in my head I was doing my to-do list I was having you
[50:09.440 -> 50:14.280] know those background conversations and if someone spoke to me I was having my
[50:14.280 -> 50:17.900] background conversation at the same time I was speaking I just wasn't there so I've
[50:17.900 -> 50:28.120] got much better at when I'm there I'm present and I don't expect my team to be at my constant beck and call. They
[50:28.120 -> 50:32.760] know that if I call them on a Sunday it's because we've got a crisis. I
[50:32.760 -> 50:39.200] wouldn't do that as a norm. Yeah you have to have the balance and I think sustained
[50:39.200 -> 50:44.680] high performance even in business it requires fitness, it requires you to look
[50:44.680 -> 50:45.640] after yourself, it's hard work. I mean I run a global business, it requires fitness, it requires you to look after yourself, it's
[50:45.640 -> 50:50.460] hard work. I mean I run a global business, I travel a lot, you know, I'm 62 now, I
[50:50.460 -> 50:56.080] don't get off the plane with quite the sort of bound in my step that maybe I
[50:56.080 -> 51:01.080] did, you know, and I suffer from jet lag more and stuff like that. So I've now got
[51:01.080 -> 51:07.100] much better, you know, I'll sit with my EA and say look I'm on a flight back from New York
[51:07.100 -> 51:11.540] I know I'll only get four hours sleep. It is completely pointless
[51:12.460 -> 51:16.920] Scheduling anything important the next day I can do routine things
[51:17.020 -> 51:21.780] But if it's a big thing that requires real deep thought it's pointless. I'll be tired
[51:21.780 -> 51:27.760] So don't do it that day do it a different get to know yourself. So important quickfire questions Steve
[51:28.080 -> 51:33.980] The three non-negotiable behaviors that you and ideally the people around you should buy into. Yeah
[51:34.580 -> 51:37.960] It's all about the thing. Yeah, it's got a start with the team
[51:38.600 -> 51:43.840] You have to be all in you have to be you have to be emotionally connected to what we're trying to achieve
[51:43.840 -> 51:49.480] not just intellectually it's good emotional connection and you've got to
[51:49.480 -> 51:53.480] pass the way to test respect. What's your biggest strength and your greatest
[51:53.480 -> 51:59.160] weakness? I have a way of finding a way of getting things done through teams, I
[51:59.160 -> 52:03.320] think I'm a, I'm very much a team player, I don't think I'd be a very good
[52:03.320 -> 52:09.320] individual contributor, I never played individual sports only played team sports. I think yeah, I have a way of getting things done
[52:09.320 -> 52:12.580] I think despite the fact that I've worked really hard at it. I'm
[52:13.280 -> 52:16.880] I'm still not great being in the present
[52:16.880 -> 52:20.840] So as soon as something people so often say to me you don't really celebrate enough
[52:20.840 -> 52:24.400] And I know what they mean because as soon as something's happened
[52:24.920 -> 52:30.480] I'm thinking about the the next thing I live I live a lot in trying to
[52:30.480 -> 52:35.360] anticipate where we're going in the future and therefore I find it hard to
[52:35.360 -> 52:40.600] to really really be present and always fully and I've got I'm a lot better but
[52:40.600 -> 52:44.640] I still don't quite possibly a strength as well though hey yeah I think it's one
[52:44.640 -> 52:47.800] it's a trade-off isn't it I think if if you like that if
[52:47.800 -> 52:52.600] you got rid of it completely you'd probably struggle with the with with
[52:52.600 -> 52:55.720] what drives me it's part of what drives me but it does frustrate me sometimes
[52:55.720 -> 53:01.540] that I can very quickly move on from a from an amazing moment because I'm
[53:01.540 -> 53:09.000] already thinking about the next one we have a high-performance book club. Would you mind sharing a book with the club that
[53:09.000 -> 53:12.480] maybe meant something to you or that you learned a lot from? I can't remember when I
[53:12.480 -> 53:16.800] read it. It was a good few years ago but the timing just seemed right
[53:16.800 -> 53:20.600] when I read it which was the Long Walk to Freedom by Nelson Mandela and I
[53:20.600 -> 53:27.120] think I'd been to Cape Town and I'd been, we went to Robin Island and
[53:27.120 -> 53:33.720] we went to see the cell that Nelson Mandela was in and we were so fortunate to be shown
[53:33.720 -> 53:38.800] around by someone who was in the prison at the same time as Nelson Mandela and I asked
[53:38.800 -> 53:45.960] him, I said, what's the thing that you really remember about Nelson Mandela and he said, you know, it's
[53:45.960 -> 53:52.520] amazing he was so kind to the guards. I was like, wow, okay. He said he was just
[53:52.520 -> 53:57.920] like that, he wanted an inclusive society so that inspired me to read his
[53:57.920 -> 54:01.200] book and then when I read his book I was thinking, wow, talk about someone playing
[54:01.200 -> 54:06.340] a long game. He stayed so true to what he was trying to do
[54:06.860 -> 54:08.860] at huge personal
[54:09.100 -> 54:10.740] sacrifice
[54:10.740 -> 54:16.380] Not a perfect man. None of us are but yeah, he was very purpose driven. How important is legacy to you?
[54:17.040 -> 54:19.040] Not so much personal
[54:19.300 -> 54:22.260] Legacy, but if we take what I'm doing at the moment at sage
[54:23.380 -> 54:25.840] It is really really important to
[54:25.840 -> 54:32.640] me that when I hand the baton on I've left it in much better shape than when I
[54:32.640 -> 54:37.600] took it over so making a difference making an impact you know the thing that
[54:37.600 -> 54:41.760] would hurt me the most I think is if someone said he left that in a much
[54:41.760 -> 54:45.160] worse position than he took it over whether it was sage or anything else
[54:45.160 -> 54:50.580] You know, I want to be that person who comes and adds something. I've always see get a lot as well
[54:50.580 -> 54:56.880] I'm learning all the time. So I take away learnings, but I want people to just kind of think yeah, you know
[54:56.880 -> 55:04.860] He he contributed he left something lovely and the final question your departing message really after what's been a brilliant conversation your
[55:09.200 -> 55:15.600] one golden rule for living a high performance life. You have to be constantly open to learning because otherwise you don't maintain it.
[55:15.600 -> 55:28.760] You can achieve high performance but other people are doing different things all of the time and if you're not listening and learning your high performance will turn into low performance which is why if you look in business it's so hard for
[55:28.760 -> 55:34.340] companies to survive over generations because they get out innovated the
[55:34.340 -> 55:38.600] hardest time to listen and learn and innovate is when you're at the top of
[55:38.600 -> 55:40.880] your game.
[55:42.960 -> 55:49.040] Damien, Jake, yeah that's a really valuable episode for our CEO conversations here on
[55:49.040 -> 55:53.480] high performance. I love what he said about learning from those setbacks. You know, there
[55:53.480 -> 55:57.580] definitely would have been a real, perhaps, sense of injustice when he was removed from
[55:57.580 -> 56:03.680] his position at GEC, but to take the learnings, to take the lessons and to come back again,
[56:03.680 -> 56:06.480] I think
[56:04.560 -> 56:08.120] Steve came back a lot wiser a
[56:06.480 -> 56:09.400] lot calmer and I also love it when we
[56:08.120 -> 56:12.120] speak to someone who's in their
[56:09.400 -> 56:13.920] 60s I think you see a very different
[56:12.120 -> 56:16.160] businessman to the one in their 20s and
[56:13.920 -> 56:17.960] 30s. Yeah that phrase that you used around
[56:16.160 -> 56:21.000] don't get high on your own supply but
[56:17.960 -> 56:22.920] don't get too low when things go wrong is
[56:21.000 -> 56:25.360] so valuable we've heard it from so many
[56:22.920 -> 56:30.920] of our guests about this idea of the consistency the constancy is where the real value is not not getting
[56:30.920 -> 56:35.440] carried away by your successes. And also knowing that he may well be the CEO but
[56:35.440 -> 56:39.280] that business doesn't live or die by him doing a good job it's about building the
[56:39.280 -> 56:42.480] team and the waiter test sounds brilliant I love the fact he wants no
[56:42.480 -> 56:45.240] stars in the team he doesn't accept bad behavior
[56:45.520 -> 56:50.440] He knows lots of businesses have all these catchy slogans on the walls, but they actually mean nothing in reality
[56:50.440 -> 56:52.440] I think what he's building at this age
[56:52.840 -> 56:58.980] Sounds to me like it's a business equipped for now, but also equipped for the future that sums up what Steve is
[56:58.980 -> 57:03.680] He's almost like an emblematic of the culture that he's trying to build. You know, if that
[57:03.000 -> 57:07.000] y bydd y bydd yn ceisio ei ddewis. Os yw'r amser yn ymwneud â chael ymdrechion i bobl ymdrech,
[57:07.000 -> 57:10.000] edrychwch ar y gwaith sydd ar y busnes.
[57:10.000 -> 57:13.000] Mae'n ymdrech ar y gwaith i bobl ymdrech a dweud,
[57:13.000 -> 57:15.000] dyma beth rydw i'n ei angen.
[57:15.000 -> 57:19.000] Edrychwch ar y ffaith bod yn cyfathrebu'r gwrthdysgau'n ddifrifio,
[57:19.000 -> 57:21.000] a dyna beth y mae'n ceisio ei wneud ar gyfer'n cwmnioedd.
[57:21.000 -> 57:24.000] Yn aml, rwy'n gweld cyfansodwyr fel Steve,
[57:24.000 -> 57:25.880] fel y Prif Weinidog o'r wlad, to do for his customers. Often I see a CEO like Steve as like the Prime Minister of a
[57:25.880 -> 57:30.280] country they almost have to role model the values that they want other people to do and
[57:30.280 -> 57:32.280] he certainly fits that criteria.
[57:32.280 -> 57:34.080] I really enjoyed it, thanks mate.
[57:34.080 -> 57:38.560] Yeah, thank you mate, I loved it.
[57:38.560 -> 57:42.280] Well there you go, I'd love to know what you thought of that conversation with Steve. I
[57:42.280 -> 57:48.200] mean he's a fascinating individual and he's leading in the right way. Yeah, I just thought it was really cool actually. So we've got
[57:48.200 -> 57:52.160] some really good conversations coming your way over the next few weeks. Thank you so
[57:52.160 -> 57:57.460] much to PWC for wanting to partner with us during this leadership series. I think it's
[57:57.460 -> 58:02.480] just so important that we open up what leadership is really like. I think from the outside,
[58:02.480 -> 58:08.560] leadership can often look like the most exciting part of any business. But the truth is that leadership can often be
[58:08.560 -> 58:14.560] lonely. Leadership often means that you're the person who feels like you're facing so
[58:14.560 -> 58:19.140] many challenges on your own. And that's why having these kinds of conversations with real
[58:19.140 -> 58:24.480] leaders in business is so important. So big thanks to Steve for agreeing to come on high
[58:24.480 -> 58:25.080] performance. Huge thanks to PWC for agreeing to come on High Performance.
[58:25.080 -> 58:27.660] Huge thanks to PWC for working with us
[58:27.660 -> 58:29.240] to create this series.
[58:29.240 -> 58:31.960] And in a week's time, we bring you another
[58:31.960 -> 58:33.600] fascinating leader.
[58:33.600 -> 58:49.280] See you then. Bye!