E199 - Matt Willis: How addiction nearly destroyed my life

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[00:00.000 -> 00:03.200] Hey there, before we get going with today's episode of High Performance,
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[00:17.600 -> 00:23.440] Thanks so much. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that
[00:23.440 -> 00:27.200] unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet.
[00:27.200 -> 00:32.040] I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories,
[00:32.040 -> 00:37.600] successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, to be challenged, and to
[00:37.600 -> 00:38.600] grow.
[00:38.600 -> 00:42.280] And after hundreds of conversations, we've discovered every guest has managed to unlock
[00:42.280 -> 00:43.760] their potential within.
[00:43.760 -> 00:45.580] But this podcast
[00:45.580 -> 00:47.080] seeks to find out how.
[00:47.080 -> 00:49.380] Here's what's coming up.
[00:49.380 -> 00:53.080] I always thought like you have a problem when you wake up and drink, you know, eventually
[00:53.080 -> 00:54.840] that became my life.
[00:54.840 -> 00:59.520] I was always lying about how much I'd done, how much I'd drunk, you know, especially with
[00:59.520 -> 01:09.560] my wife, like it became like we were dating and towards our marriage I was just I lied to her every day about what I was up to what I was doing and I loved her
[01:09.660 -> 01:14.160] You know and I kind of never thought that I would be that person, but I was kind of constantly
[01:15.240 -> 01:17.240] hiding and lying
[01:18.080 -> 01:19.880] It hit me
[01:19.880 -> 01:28.640] all of a sudden that I was gonna be a a terrible father. And it was the one thing that I had always planned not to be,
[01:28.640 -> 01:31.120] the only thing I'd ever planned not to be,
[01:31.120 -> 01:32.880] and I was going to do that.
[01:32.880 -> 01:35.240] And I was going to do that to this little person
[01:35.240 -> 01:38.160] who I loved more than I'd ever felt in my entire life.
[01:38.160 -> 01:41.120] And I was going to repeat that cycle of shit.
[01:41.120 -> 01:44.920] And it made me drop to my knees and ask for help.
[01:45.000 -> 01:46.280] The biggest thing, right, is everything comes from action, of shit and it made me drop to my knees and ask for help.
[01:49.640 -> 01:52.200] The biggest thing, right, is everything comes from action because you're not responsible what happened to you.
[01:52.200 -> 01:53.880] You know, you're not responsible for what happened to you
[01:53.880 -> 01:57.040] but you're absolutely responsible for what you do next.
[01:57.040 -> 02:00.020] And that is about making the choices in the moment
[02:00.020 -> 02:02.400] that allow you to be the person you want to be
[02:02.400 -> 02:05.000] rather than the person that's sucked into that past.
[02:06.560 -> 02:10.520] Honestly, this is such an emotional and moving conversation.
[02:10.520 -> 02:12.860] I don't want to say too much at this point,
[02:12.860 -> 02:15.320] apart from if you're struggling with addiction,
[02:15.320 -> 02:18.440] then please have a look at the show notes
[02:18.440 -> 02:20.820] on the description to this podcast,
[02:20.820 -> 02:22.480] because there is a link there
[02:22.480 -> 02:27.200] to someone that may well be able to provide help. and all I ask is that you come to this conversation with
[02:27.200 -> 02:32.840] empathy. This is a conversation with Busted singer Matt Willis about the true
[02:32.840 -> 02:38.240] impact of addiction, the truth about why it remains such a difficult thing for
[02:38.240 -> 02:41.600] people in our society to deal with, but also I think it's a conversation about
[02:41.600 -> 02:47.360] hope and positivity. So thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the High Performance Podcast.
[02:47.360 -> 02:50.800] Here he is, Matt Willis, with the truth about his life.
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[05:40.560 -> 05:41.560] Welcome to High Performance.
[05:41.560 -> 05:42.560] It's nice, isn't it?
[05:42.560 -> 05:43.560] Thank you.
[05:43.560 -> 05:44.560] It's nice.
[05:44.560 -> 05:45.520] How would you define
[05:45.520 -> 05:49.160] high performance? I listened to this podcast, I was like, right, I've got to prepare a
[05:49.160 -> 05:53.320] proper answer for this. But I think someone said it before, which I thought
[05:53.320 -> 05:57.200] was a really good way of doing it, which was when my thoughts, my words and my
[05:57.200 -> 06:03.400] actions are aligned, but with me there's a caveat of and it makes me happy. Yeah.
[06:03.400 -> 06:07.940] Because sometimes my thoughts and my words and my actions
[06:07.940 -> 06:09.820] can mean something else.
[06:09.820 -> 06:12.840] And it doesn't always lead me to be content.
[06:12.840 -> 06:15.200] But I think when they're all kind of going the right way
[06:15.200 -> 06:17.680] for the right reason, that's when I feel good.
[06:17.680 -> 06:20.520] Take us to a moment in your life where you felt
[06:20.520 -> 06:22.240] you're in the flow of high performance.
[06:22.240 -> 06:23.920] Cause Matthew McConaughey came on this podcast
[06:23.920 -> 06:24.760] and was brilliant.
[06:24.760 -> 06:28.760] He said, we spend our lives looking at the bad stuff and the dark times and the tricky moments
[06:29.000 -> 06:33.040] Thinking that that will lead us to high performance, but he speaks about green lights
[06:33.040 -> 06:38.460] He's like look at the days when you are in flow and then find more of those days. I think for me
[06:39.400 -> 06:46.960] Like being on stage a busted is when I feel like I don't really have to think about
[06:44.680 -> 06:49.920] anything else. I normally rehearse
[06:46.960 -> 06:51.560] really quite obsessively for quite a
[06:49.920 -> 06:53.520] while so then I don't have to think
[06:51.560 -> 06:55.360] about what I'm playing or singing and then
[06:53.520 -> 06:56.760] it just becomes about kind of enjoying
[06:55.360 -> 06:59.040] that moment and kind of breathing it in
[06:56.760 -> 07:01.520] and I think that's when I kind of get
[06:59.040 -> 07:05.400] into a bit of a kind of flow state and I
[07:01.520 -> 07:09.620] don't really understand The difference between the work and the enjoyment so that's interesting then so
[07:10.320 -> 07:14.880] You're in high performance when you've already done the work so you can hear the fruits of your labor. So
[07:15.520 -> 07:20.120] How do you know when enough work is enough? I don't know. I struggle with that
[07:20.120 -> 07:25.060] I kind of I'm not a very talented musician, you know, I've never really kind of been very good
[07:25.640 -> 07:32.560] After kind of years of hating myself about it. I kind of realized that I just need to work my ass off at it
[07:32.600 -> 07:37.460] So now like we start rehearsal. We got a tour in September. So I start we start rehearsal in August
[07:37.600 -> 07:41.680] So I'll start in June and start kind of getting on my ducks in a row
[07:41.680 -> 07:46.560] I'll go and visit the drama and we'll play through everything. So then when I go in the room, I'm already kind of prepared.
[07:47.760 -> 07:51.680] So when you define high performance as being on stage with the band then,
[07:51.680 -> 07:59.120] yeah, I'm interested in what came first for you. Was it the buzz of performing that got you to do
[07:59.120 -> 08:06.080] the hard work? Or was it the love of the hard work and the performance was just a nice consequence?
[08:07.200 -> 08:07.640] I don't know.
[08:07.640 -> 08:10.640] I never really, I never really thought I'd be in a band.
[08:10.920 -> 08:16.320] For me, it was a way to get somewhere else, you know, like, like, um, and I
[08:16.320 -> 08:20.000] would have done anything, anything possible to kind of take me out of where
[08:20.000 -> 08:23.160] I was, was my agenda, you know?
[08:23.160 -> 08:25.980] So I think, um, and I just so happened, like I went to theater school and I was, and then I was like, right, think I'm and I just so happened like I went to
[08:25.980 -> 08:29.020] theater school when I was and then I was like right, I can't gonna be an actor that's gonna
[08:29.020 -> 08:33.900] take me away, you know, and then I met James whilst we were at whilst I was at theater
[08:33.900 -> 08:38.220] school. He was on the same acting agency as me. So we'd meet auditions. I met him and
[08:38.220 -> 08:44.260] I was like, you've got it. I'm gonna hold on to you, you know, like he had something
[08:44.260 -> 08:45.200] about him. He was a weirdest kid I've ever met in my you, you know, like
[08:43.280 -> 08:46.720] he had something about him. He was a
[08:45.200 -> 08:47.920] weirdest kid I've ever met in my life, but
[08:46.720 -> 08:50.320] he had this
[08:47.920 -> 08:51.360] something that I didn't and I knew that
[08:50.320 -> 08:53.680] I needed it,
[08:51.360 -> 08:55.120] you know, so I just, I grabbed hold of
[08:53.680 -> 08:58.160] talent. What you talk about
[08:55.120 -> 08:59.840] you needed to get away from what? From
[08:58.160 -> 09:00.400] where I grew up, I wasn't very, very happy
[08:59.840 -> 09:02.240] at home
[09:00.400 -> 09:03.440] and I kind of always, I always felt like
[09:02.240 -> 09:04.880] um,
[09:03.440 -> 09:06.640] like as soon as I was old enough I was
[09:04.880 -> 09:05.760] gonna move out and move away. I was old enough I was going to move out
[09:05.760 -> 09:09.880] and move away. I moved out when I was 16 and it was the best thing that ever happened to
[09:09.880 -> 09:15.680] me really. Subsequently I joined a band with James, we started Busted together, so I went
[09:15.680 -> 09:21.200] to live with his parents in Southend. I was always in trouble at home, I was in trouble
[09:21.200 -> 09:25.100] where I lived, and all my mates were doing the same shit that I was.
[09:25.300 -> 09:30.340] It was just like very apparent that if I didn't get out, I was gonna be the same.
[09:30.660 -> 09:36.860] And also I couldn't stand where I lived, you know, so I kind of wanted to be as far away from that as possible.
[09:37.460 -> 09:38.220] So, um...
[09:38.220 -> 09:40.220] And what sort of trouble do you mean?
[09:40.220 -> 09:49.240] Well, like we were, you know, typical kind of, you know, naughty kids and kind of getting into trouble and stuff. And I was taking loads of drugs and kind of drinking relentlessly,
[09:49.240 -> 09:54.760] you know, from a really young age. Probably from about 12 or 13, we were kind of getting,
[09:54.760 -> 09:58.480] well I personally was getting as fucked up as I could. I didn't realize that my mates
[09:58.480 -> 10:02.960] weren't doing as much as I was until I was much older. I look back at them going, oh,
[10:02.960 -> 10:08.120] I was the only one who was kind of blackout and everyone else was just having a good time but I was the
[10:08.120 -> 10:12.040] one going how can I get as fucked up as I possibly can on as little money as I
[10:12.040 -> 10:15.980] possibly can. One of the phrases that really resonates with Jake and I on this
[10:15.980 -> 10:20.280] is we talk about the ghosts of our childhood that often rattle around our
[10:20.280 -> 10:25.160] adult bodies that until we've had
[10:22.800 -> 10:28.520] chance to resolve some of these things
[10:25.160 -> 10:31.880] they will continue showing up even as
[10:28.520 -> 10:34.280] adults. So what, when I hear you talk about
[10:31.880 -> 10:36.760] blackouts and in the documentary I've
[10:34.280 -> 10:38.960] seen that really moving clip where you
[10:36.760 -> 10:41.080] and your brother sit on a park bench. Yeah.
[10:38.960 -> 10:44.360] And you almost apologized to each
[10:41.080 -> 10:46.720] other. Yeah. What, just for our listeners,
[10:44.360 -> 10:45.520] what was it that you were seeking to to each other. Yeah. What was, just for
[10:43.840 -> 10:49.360] our listeners, what was it that you were
[10:45.520 -> 10:50.960] seeking to escape? We're quite a traumatic
[10:49.360 -> 10:52.560] upbringing in our house, like we kind of
[10:50.960 -> 10:54.080] didn't really, we didn't really get along
[10:52.560 -> 10:56.520] with my stepdad and it became quite kind
[10:54.080 -> 10:59.240] of frictious at times and then my
[10:56.520 -> 11:00.600] brother was, well he was a couple years
[10:59.240 -> 11:02.120] older than me, so he kind of had the
[11:00.600 -> 11:05.040] ability to stand up a bit more, as I
[11:02.120 -> 11:08.360] kind of just hid, you know, and I kind of never really got a chance to kind of talk to him about that until that
[11:08.360 -> 11:09.360] moment.
[11:09.360 -> 11:14.600] And it was a really big, big thing for us to kind of sit down and talk about that because
[11:14.600 -> 11:21.040] we were very typical men in some way with that kind of, we just kind of like brush past
[11:21.040 -> 11:22.040] it and move forward.
[11:22.040 -> 11:25.640] And we've never really addressed anything
[11:23.200 -> 11:27.600] like that you know so um for us to kind
[11:25.640 -> 11:30.080] of I kind of always felt guilty because
[11:27.600 -> 11:34.280] he left home when he was 13 he got he
[11:30.080 -> 11:37.320] got made to leave and I I stayed and um and
[11:34.280 -> 11:38.920] he always felt guilty for me for leaving
[11:37.320 -> 11:41.360] me and I always felt guilty for not going
[11:38.920 -> 11:43.560] with him so it was um it was a really big
[11:41.360 -> 11:46.560] moment for us I think. So you're really
[11:43.560 -> 11:46.200] from the from a really early age,
[11:46.200 -> 11:48.440] you're basically walking around with a sack load of guilt.
[11:48.440 -> 11:51.680] I mean you're guilty, I guess you're guilty about hiding rather than
[11:51.680 -> 11:54.680] coming out and standing alongside your brother and helping him,
[11:54.680 -> 11:57.800] but you were a little kid, you feel guilty about staying there
[11:57.800 -> 11:59.640] when he's been forced to leave the family home,
[11:59.640 -> 12:01.560] why didn't I go with him?
[12:01.560 -> 12:07.100] That is a very powerful emotion to have to carry. Did you just push it away
[12:07.100 -> 12:10.520] for all those years when you were in the band and everything was going well and we were
[12:10.520 -> 12:15.560] all seeing you play into arenas and releasing records and getting number ones? Where was
[12:15.560 -> 12:16.560] that guilt then?
[12:16.560 -> 12:25.280] I never really realised that it was guilt. I kind of always felt shame, you know, like
[12:22.720 -> 12:27.680] which I knew really well and that
[12:25.280 -> 12:31.320] kind of allowed me to act in a way
[12:27.680 -> 12:33.200] that I could make sense of, because I felt
[12:31.320 -> 12:35.160] shame and so there's shame made me take
[12:33.200 -> 12:36.440] drugs and drink more, you know, and then
[12:35.160 -> 12:37.760] I just feel shame about what I was
[12:36.440 -> 12:39.240] doing, so I drink more and take more
[12:37.760 -> 12:41.400] drugs, you know, so it's kind of this
[12:39.240 -> 12:43.520] perpetual kind of cycle of shame, but I
[12:41.400 -> 12:46.120] don't feel that much guilt right now.
[12:43.520 -> 12:46.600] Yeah, well you
[12:44.520 -> 12:48.240] shouldn't because guilt implies in some way you're
[12:46.600 -> 12:51.280] responsible. I mean, yeah, let's be
[12:48.240 -> 12:52.800] totally clear. You're a six, seven, eight, nine
[12:51.280 -> 12:54.320] year old kid. There's no
[12:52.800 -> 12:56.720] responsibility on your shoulders. It's
[12:54.320 -> 12:58.600] about understanding that I guess. Yeah,
[12:56.720 -> 13:00.360] yeah, totally. But I think that's the
[12:58.600 -> 13:01.840] what comes of age and kind of dealing
[13:00.360 -> 13:03.680] with stuff. As you kind of do, kind of get
[13:01.840 -> 13:05.240] to kind of look back and you, you know,
[13:03.680 -> 13:06.400] I had a therapist once who kind
[13:04.880 -> 13:07.920] of would do loads of stuff about your inner
[13:06.400 -> 13:09.760] child and kind of go there and kind of
[13:07.920 -> 13:11.680] look at that stuff and kind of with an
[13:09.760 -> 13:13.480] empathetic eye like you were a father
[13:11.680 -> 13:15.840] looking at that kid you know and that was
[13:13.480 -> 13:17.240] a big thing for me because what I took
[13:15.840 -> 13:19.320] away from those sessions was I was
[13:17.240 -> 13:21.240] able to kind of look up when I feel
[13:19.320 -> 13:23.440] these things I can kind of trace it
[13:21.240 -> 13:27.080] back and go right that's that kid who's
[13:23.440 -> 13:26.960] scared or upset or feeling,
[13:26.960 -> 13:31.480] you know, frightened and that's not necessarily who I am now.
[13:31.480 -> 13:34.160] And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not scared or frightened right now.
[13:34.160 -> 13:36.360] So I'm kind of, I'm able to change that narrative a bit.
[13:36.360 -> 13:40.000] I'm particularly interested in that phrase of feeling shame.
[13:40.000 -> 13:41.000] Yeah.
[13:41.000 -> 13:52.320] Because I think that's one of the most pernicious Emotions you can have to be ashamed of something is something that's really quite deep and almost embarrassing and can feel toxic. Yeah
[13:52.760 -> 13:57.760] When you say misuse that means to like permeate like yeah, it's in everything right here
[13:57.760 -> 14:01.200] And I'm interested in what was it that you felt shame about?
[14:01.920 -> 14:06.000] Yeah, I mean, I don't
[14:03.800 -> 14:07.520] really know. When I think back
[14:06.000 -> 14:09.480] to my childhood and kind of happy memories
[14:07.520 -> 14:11.040] and stuff, I couldn't really, I can't
[14:09.480 -> 14:13.640] really, like everything's just a bit vague.
[14:11.040 -> 14:16.880] And I was like, do I have these
[14:13.640 -> 14:18.960] stories or have I made them up or have
[14:16.880 -> 14:20.440] they evolved over time into something
[14:18.960 -> 14:22.280] that they're not? All these kind of
[14:20.440 -> 14:24.240] questions because I don't really
[14:22.280 -> 14:26.240] think I can physically remember these
[14:24.240 -> 14:27.680] moments. I've sat down my brother lots and talked about the past now and
[14:27.680 -> 14:32.200] he mentioned kind of moments to me which are big fucking moments you know like
[14:32.200 -> 14:36.680] really big important pinnacle moments in a child's development and I don't
[14:36.680 -> 14:40.400] remember anything about it like nothing I don't I'm like that did not happen
[14:40.400 -> 14:49.600] like it was it did I was there you know and I don't remember it so like you some way, you're kind of brain of some way of kind of blacking it out and kind of like,
[14:49.600 -> 14:53.440] that I've always kind of felt like it's like this kind of scaffolding that we build up around
[14:53.440 -> 14:57.840] ourself to kind of make who we are now. Like this kind of, you kind of build this kind of
[14:57.840 -> 15:02.720] character on top of each other that becomes who you are, you know? So for me to do that, I kind of
[15:02.720 -> 15:08.000] felt like I blacked out all this kind of hard shit and not dealt with it.
[15:08.000 -> 15:15.000] But because of that, I felt some kind of weird shame and kind of darkness about it that I couldn't really come to terms with.
[15:15.000 -> 15:24.000] And was it there all the time or when you moved in with James and you started writing songs and things began to happen, like, was there lightness in those moments?
[15:24.000 -> 15:28.720] Yeah, I mean, I loved it, you know, like, I mean. I mean I absolutely loved it. I couldn't believe it was happening.
[15:28.720 -> 15:33.160] It was just like, we literally started the band and all we dreamt of was playing this
[15:33.160 -> 15:37.760] venue in Southend called Chinnery's. And it was like new, kind of cool, up and coming
[15:37.760 -> 15:42.040] bands would play there. It was like 200 capacity. We were like, maybe we can play there and
[15:42.040 -> 15:45.800] fucking score chicks or something. That was kind of like the big goal, you know
[15:45.800 -> 15:52.380] So when we're like shooting videos and there was like camera crews and all this kind of stuff around I couldn't quite believe it was happening
[15:52.380 -> 15:57.740] You know, so there was there was loads of massive amazing moments, but I still
[15:58.560 -> 16:02.500] found my way to kind of black out and kind of and kind of
[16:02.700 -> 16:06.840] Even though I should have been enjoying all the fruits of what was happening,
[16:06.840 -> 16:10.980] I couldn't help but feel like I didn't belong
[16:10.980 -> 16:12.720] or didn't deserve it.
[16:12.720 -> 16:15.660] Is there an argument that that almost makes it worse
[16:15.660 -> 16:18.440] because then there's another voice in your head going,
[16:18.440 -> 16:20.320] you should be loving every minute of this
[16:20.320 -> 16:22.320] because you're now in a band, you've now got your dream,
[16:22.320 -> 16:24.120] you've had a number one single, you're touring,
[16:24.120 -> 16:26.120] you're famous, you're everything you ever
[16:26.120 -> 16:30.080] wanted and dreamed of and then a lot more. Yet still these thoughts are there,
[16:30.080 -> 16:33.560] still the shame is there, which probably adds to the...
[16:33.560 -> 16:38.480] Absolutely, which breeds more shame. And also I was acting in ways which
[16:38.480 -> 16:44.680] weren't necessarily conclusive to the pop image. I mean Buster was kind of a... it
[16:44.680 -> 16:45.280] was in a weird
[16:45.280 -> 16:49.200] place because it wasn't really a rock band, so we weren't like cool enough to
[16:49.200 -> 16:52.520] be accepted by that world, but we weren't really a stereotypical pop band, so we
[16:52.520 -> 16:55.480] weren't really accepted in that world. So it was kind of this weird kind of like
[16:55.480 -> 16:59.480] skater kids who couldn't skate in their own lane, you know, and it kind of didn't
[16:59.480 -> 17:02.600] really make sense, so kind of like we always felt a bit like the outsiders, but
[17:02.600 -> 17:07.220] then I mean when it got, when it got really big and successful, it kind of like we always felt a bit like the outsiders but then I mean when it got when it got really big and successful and it kind of came up as
[17:07.800 -> 17:11.980] A massive surprise to me like I didn't really see it coming and then I was like wow
[17:11.980 -> 17:16.920] This is we're fucking playing Wembley and stuff. You know, it didn't really ever I didn't see the rise
[17:16.920 -> 17:20.420] I didn't see anything. It was just suddenly dawned on me that we're kind of doing this cool shit
[17:20.420 -> 17:28.360] Well, could you connect the hard work you've done of learning an instrument of writing these songs could you connect that with the success or did
[17:28.360 -> 17:33.900] that feel extraneous to you? I think that's the thing that we wrote these songs in
[17:33.900 -> 17:38.720] Jay-Z's bedroom and we wrote silly songs which made us laugh and that's all we
[17:38.720 -> 17:42.920] kind of did like I never really thought that they would be taken seriously or
[17:42.920 -> 17:48.000] made into an album or anything so we we were kind of like, I was really shocked that these were doing
[17:48.000 -> 17:52.460] well, you know, in a way because we just, we also, when I met James he
[17:52.460 -> 17:56.920] played piano like with one finger here and three fingers here, you know, and I
[17:56.920 -> 18:00.520] played like four chords on the guitar and that was it and that's how we wrote
[18:00.520 -> 18:03.320] the whole first album really. It's like you were never meant to be a band, right?
[18:03.320 -> 18:08.320] Never meant to happen, you know, like we were such a kind of like organic kind of punk rock way to start, really.
[18:08.320 -> 18:09.960] We really couldn't do much.
[18:09.960 -> 18:12.520] We're just writing kind of like from our life.
[18:12.520 -> 18:14.320] And it seemed to resonate with people.
[18:14.320 -> 18:19.760] And then I think what really ate me up was the fact that I was never a bass player.
[18:19.760 -> 18:23.640] I could play guitar basically to write songs, like James is much better guitar player than
[18:23.640 -> 18:24.640] me.
[18:24.640 -> 18:29.600] And we write these little songs on guitar like I could play like most of the chords
[18:29.600 -> 18:33.600] you know in like a scrappy little way and then we got signed and they were like right
[18:33.600 -> 18:38.640] well Charlie and James are much better at guitar than you so you'll play bass and I
[18:38.640 -> 18:43.160] was like I don't have any desire to play this instrument nor do I want to and it was kind
[18:43.160 -> 18:48.840] of pushed on me and it took me fucking ages to learn it like really really long time and I kind of
[18:48.840 -> 18:53.320] and I felt really inadequate with it and then when I had to sing with it it
[18:53.320 -> 18:57.080] became a different minefield because like to play I could learn to play it
[18:57.080 -> 19:00.680] all but then I'm when I had to sing like playing bass and singing is really hard
[19:00.680 -> 19:03.760] because they're like alternate rhythms so you're singing something different to
[19:03.760 -> 19:05.280] what you're playing and I found that really hard so they're like alternate rhythms. So you're singing something different to what you're playing, and I found that really hard.
[19:05.280 -> 19:08.320] So I was kind of constantly kind of feeling less than for that
[19:08.320 -> 19:10.320] and kind of feeling like a bit of a fraud.
[19:10.320 -> 19:14.800] I look at this though, and I think that all of this is actually,
[19:14.800 -> 19:17.200] in a weird way, the epitome of high performance.
[19:17.200 -> 19:19.120] Because if you think of what you did,
[19:19.120 -> 19:22.480] you ended up in a band that did the amazing things that Busted did.
[19:22.480 -> 19:26.000] But you ended up in that band, despite childhood traumas,
[19:26.000 -> 19:28.000] you ended up in that band despite the fact
[19:28.000 -> 19:30.000] that you felt like you were in a band that didn't
[19:30.000 -> 19:32.000] fit anywhere in the sort of spectrum of music.
[19:32.000 -> 19:34.000] You were in that band unsuccessful
[19:34.000 -> 19:36.000] despite the fact that as the band grew
[19:36.000 -> 19:38.000] and become more successful, that only
[19:38.000 -> 19:40.000] increased your shame because you
[19:40.000 -> 19:42.000] struggled even more with those things from your childhood
[19:42.000 -> 19:44.000] and then you get forced to play an instrument that you don't even
[19:44.000 -> 19:46.000] want to play in the band that you don't know where fits.
[19:46.000 -> 19:46.500] Yeah.
[19:46.500 -> 19:54.000] That you're only in and you still want these childhood traumas. It's like, it's like everywhere you look there's challenge, challenge, challenge, challenge.
[19:54.000 -> 19:54.500] Yeah.
[19:54.500 -> 20:05.480] Yet you're in it and you're doing it and you're learning it and you're singing and you're performing and you're signing autographs and your fame is growing, that's high performance. Yeah, I think that's it, you're so right.
[20:05.480 -> 20:07.960] Like, I couldn't look at it in that way at the time,
[20:07.960 -> 20:10.040] so I was kind of going through it and kind of panicking.
[20:10.040 -> 20:13.680] But I think that's, you know, that's life, isn't it?
[20:13.680 -> 20:16.000] You kind of learn in the struggle, you know,
[20:16.000 -> 20:18.120] and I think we all kind of live in that struggle,
[20:18.120 -> 20:21.040] you know, a lot of the time, but what comes out of it
[20:21.040 -> 20:27.360] is an ability to make other things less painful. Do you know what I mean? Like,
[20:27.360 -> 20:32.920] I think of it the same way as why I get in this bloody ice tub every morning. You know,
[20:32.920 -> 20:36.960] I hear about all this kind of stuff that it makes your inflammation and good for your
[20:36.960 -> 20:39.800] heart and stuff like that. I don't do it for that reason. I do it because I hate doing
[20:39.800 -> 20:48.960] it and I get in it every morning and I never want to get in it But when I get in there for three to five minutes, I get out and nothing in my day is gonna be as difficult
[20:49.200 -> 20:52.400] As getting in that freezing cold tub every morning
[20:52.400 -> 20:54.400] So that's where I'm one of those annoying
[20:54.480 -> 20:56.320] Bankers who talks about cold tubs all the time
[20:56.320 -> 21:00.920] But it's been but it's been really big for me because because I get in it and I'm like right cool anything else is kind
[21:00.920 -> 21:03.960] Of easy, you know, but I think you're right like it's about it's about
[21:04.520 -> 21:10.480] You know learning to kind of them to kind of easy, you know, but I think you're right. Like it's about, it's about, you know, learning to kind of, um, to kind of deal in the mess, you know, and kind of, kind of,
[21:10.480 -> 21:15.600] kind of, but have you got to a point yet where you can look at it and go, look how strong I was?
[21:16.320 -> 21:21.120] Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah. I have got to that point, especially now that busted is in the best
[21:21.120 -> 21:29.060] place it's ever been, you know, and it kind of feels like we really kind of know what we are and what we do. And I think that's taken a long
[21:29.060 -> 21:34.320] time for me personally to get to. But I feel like now there's nothing that I don't feel
[21:34.320 -> 21:38.720] that we could do in a way. I mean, it's hard when you got three creatives, because that's
[21:38.720 -> 21:42.280] the biggest problem with us is that we've got three different creative brains who all
[21:42.280 -> 21:46.000] have different ideas and want to push different things, which is hard, but then that becomes,
[21:46.000 -> 21:47.680] through compromise, becomes easier.
[21:47.680 -> 21:49.320] But then, you know, it's,
[21:49.320 -> 21:52.120] I do feel like I've learned a lot from that.
[21:52.120 -> 21:53.160] Can I go back to that period, though,
[21:53.160 -> 21:54.800] when you're learning bass
[21:54.800 -> 21:56.960] and you're having to learn about performing?
[21:56.960 -> 21:59.800] Were you still getting pissed?
[21:59.800 -> 22:01.760] Were you still taking drugs in that period?
[22:01.760 -> 22:03.280] Yeah, the whole time.
[22:03.280 -> 22:06.000] It was a daily thing for me
[22:04.400 -> 22:07.600] from a young age, you know, like I think
[22:06.000 -> 22:09.360] I never thought of it as a daily thing.
[22:07.600 -> 22:11.440] Like I didn't, I was thought like you have
[22:09.360 -> 22:14.320] a problem when you wake up and drink, you
[22:11.440 -> 22:16.240] know, eventually that became my life, but
[22:14.320 -> 22:18.720] it wasn't for the whole time during
[22:16.240 -> 22:20.520] busted. I just get, I'd wait till four, five
[22:18.720 -> 22:22.800] o'clock and start getting wrecked, you
[22:20.520 -> 22:23.880] know, but like, and, and after shows and
[22:22.800 -> 22:25.960] things like that, it would just be that.
[22:23.880 -> 22:28.940] But I always thought, I always had these, these things I would never do. I won't
[22:28.940 -> 22:33.420] do that because that's, that's bad. Then I cross that wall, I jump over that wall and
[22:33.420 -> 22:37.100] be like, Oh, right now I'm doing that. Okay, well, I won't do that. And then I get to there
[22:37.100 -> 22:42.220] and I do that. And you know, like drinking in the morning was a big thing for me to kind
[22:42.220 -> 22:46.600] of, I don't think you can really ignore that you know when you wake up and you've got the physical kind
[22:46.600 -> 22:50.800] of when you become physically addicted something is very different to when you
[22:50.800 -> 22:54.840] to when you're non physically addicted you know when you when you like literally
[22:54.840 -> 22:57.680] if I didn't drink first thing in the morning for a few years I would
[22:57.680 -> 23:02.680] physically shake and have seizures and all this kind of horrible stuff. So what age are you when this is happening?
[23:02.680 -> 23:05.760] This is about 20 22 to 25.
[23:05.760 -> 23:07.800] I had to drink as soon as I woke up
[23:07.800 -> 23:09.480] and I hated myself for it,
[23:09.480 -> 23:13.000] but I'd kind of find ways of rationalizing it.
[23:13.000 -> 23:15.680] You know, like I felt like something horrible
[23:15.680 -> 23:17.800] was gonna happen to me unless I did.
[23:17.800 -> 23:19.720] And then I would hide things around
[23:19.720 -> 23:20.560] so I could always do it.
[23:20.560 -> 23:23.160] Like I had this kind of routine of waking up in the morning
[23:23.160 -> 23:26.560] and I had a load of stuff stashed in my airing cupboard in my bathroom. And I kind of routine of wake up in the morning and I had a load
[23:23.960 -> 23:29.120] of stuff stashed in my airing cupboard in my
[23:26.560 -> 23:31.120] bathroom and I kind of flush a chain
[23:29.120 -> 23:32.720] open a can drink that and then I feel
[23:31.120 -> 23:35.360] a bit of ease and comfort and kind of
[23:32.720 -> 23:37.560] carry over my day. So that was the first
[23:35.360 -> 23:39.160] boundary what was he said you there was
[23:37.560 -> 23:41.320] a lot more before that there was a lot
[23:39.160 -> 23:42.680] more before that kind of like there's
[23:41.320 -> 23:45.360] loads of things like I never thought I
[23:42.680 -> 23:47.420] would have to lie about my drug-taking you you know, I did some management stuff because management
[23:47.420 -> 23:50.380] didn't want you taking drugs, but then, you know, like the record company and stuff
[23:50.380 -> 23:52.600] like that, like I'd lie about that all the stuff all the time, but I thought it
[23:52.600 -> 23:58.060] was just rock and roll, you know, but then I had moments where I was always
[23:58.060 -> 24:01.820] lying about how much I'd done, how much I'd drunk, you know, especially with my wife,
[24:01.820 -> 24:09.240] like it became, like we were dating and towards our marriage, like I was just, I lied to her every day about what I was up
[24:09.240 -> 24:13.720] to, what I was doing, and I loved her, you know, and I kind of never thought that I would
[24:13.720 -> 24:19.920] be that person, but I was kind of constantly hiding and lying, you know, that was a big
[24:19.920 -> 24:20.920] thing for me.
[24:20.920 -> 24:23.960] And would you say it got really bad at what, like 22, 21, 22?
[24:23.960 -> 24:25.200] Yeah, 21, I think, when Busted ended, it was a big thing for me, Would you say it got really bad at what like 22, 21, 22? Yeah, 21 I think
[24:25.200 -> 24:32.200] when Busted ended it was a big thing for me because before I think work kept me, I had
[24:32.200 -> 24:37.720] to perform, you know, I had to do something every day, you know, so I could kind of level
[24:37.720 -> 24:42.720] things out. I was a very functioning addict in a way and I don't know if I'm very keen
[24:42.720 -> 24:48.280] on that word but like it was a, I was functioning like I could get shit done and I could still carry on with what I
[24:48.280 -> 24:52.200] was doing and it allowed me to function in the way that I needed to function you
[24:52.200 -> 24:58.000] know but then when busted ended when I was 21 I suddenly was faced with the
[24:58.000 -> 25:03.640] prospect of what do I do with the rest of my life and at that time I had a
[25:03.640 -> 25:07.400] shitload of cash and loads of time and it just went
[25:07.400 -> 25:11.960] fucking out of it. For me it was a dangerous mix and um and also
[25:11.960 -> 25:16.400] kind of no direction no purpose no kind of um everything was about the band and
[25:16.400 -> 25:18.960] everything was about this train that we were on that we couldn't get off and
[25:18.960 -> 25:23.200] suddenly I was off that train and I didn't know what to do next. And who was
[25:23.200 -> 25:31.040] the first person that said Matt this is like way beyond just enjoying life? I had so many people sit
[25:31.040 -> 25:34.760] me down, like really kind of key figures in my life. Because that's my big thing
[25:34.760 -> 25:38.640] when I watch a documentary, I was like where were the people helping this guy
[25:38.640 -> 25:42.520] out? Yeah. Like, but they were there were they? There were some people there.
[25:42.520 -> 25:46.620] There was a few people at my record company who or kind of much older than me and would kind of
[25:46.960 -> 25:49.980] Sat me down and were like, you know, this isn't normal behavior
[25:49.980 -> 25:54.960] You need to sort your shit out like quite a few people and my manager was always telling me that you know
[25:54.960 -> 25:56.880] but at the same time it was
[25:56.880 -> 26:02.640] It's very hard because they couldn't ship me off to rehab because I had work to do and at the time you're running so many
[26:02.640 -> 26:05.000] People so much money that you've just
[26:05.000 -> 26:09.160] got to keep the fucking show on the road in a way. So it's like, how do we manage this
[26:09.160 -> 26:13.800] wrecking ball and kind of keep him kind of like going, you know, but I did have definite
[26:13.800 -> 26:18.720] people talk, sit me down and talk to me. And then fear, like, I'm going to blow this, I'm
[26:18.720 -> 26:23.160] going to ruin this. I'm like, yeah, that was always kind of always kind of there. But I
[26:23.160 -> 26:25.040] think it was kind of part
[26:25.040 -> 26:29.600] of me was all right with that, you know, in a weird way, you know, like, I mean, towards
[26:29.600 -> 26:36.480] the end of busted, like I was preempting the downfall of me in a way, you know, I was kind
[26:36.480 -> 26:40.800] of almost begging for it, you know, because I feel like I'd kind of had enough of living
[26:40.800 -> 26:42.680] like this for such a long time.
[26:42.680 -> 26:50.480] And then it took me years then to kind of come to grips with it. But then it was, I was always kind of waiting for that moment
[26:50.480 -> 26:52.400] of it's over.
[26:52.400 -> 26:56.520] Yeah. And when was that moment?
[26:56.520 -> 27:01.400] It came when my daughter was born. She was about eight months old. I think a few things
[27:01.400 -> 27:05.680] had happened before that. I got signed signed to as a solo artist when busted ended
[27:05.680 -> 27:09.640] They gave me this amazing opportunity at the record company gave me a great record deal for a solo record
[27:09.640 -> 27:15.160] And I never really wanted to be a solo artist, but I was like great something to do brilliant
[27:15.280 -> 27:19.760] You know and I'm and I really fucked that up, but that was the biggest kind of failure
[27:19.760 -> 27:22.400] I'd ever really experienced then explain what happened
[27:22.480 -> 27:28.360] Well, I kind of um, I was given an amazing budget and kind of could work with anybody I wanted to you know
[27:28.360 -> 27:33.760] studios that were incredible recording studios and people and their time and
[27:33.760 -> 27:38.240] their effort and I was just not turning up I wasn't there you know and I'd leave
[27:38.240 -> 27:43.200] people waiting I'd kind of you know the album took three times as long to record
[27:43.200 -> 27:45.280] as we said because I wasn't writing it.
[27:45.720 -> 27:48.200] And at the time I was working with this amazing guy called Jason Perry,
[27:48.200 -> 27:50.080] he was so worried about me.
[27:50.480 -> 27:51.600] You know, it was kind of like,
[27:51.600 -> 27:54.880] he had a really hard thing because he had to get an album made from me,
[27:55.280 -> 27:58.520] but all he wanted to do was take me away, you know, and it was, um,
[27:58.560 -> 28:00.720] so it was a really hard relationship for him to have to deal with.
[28:01.160 -> 28:04.440] And then that bombed, you know, that, that record kind of came out.
[28:04.840 -> 28:08.160] It wasn't, that wasn't very good. It wasn't very right, you know, it didn't really make
[28:08.160 -> 28:12.580] any sense, none of it kind of came together as an album, it was all over the place. Like
[28:12.580 -> 28:17.000] everything Busted did went to number one, like everything, you know, and so my first
[28:17.000 -> 28:21.640] single went at number 11. And for a new kind of artist, that would have been great, but
[28:21.640 -> 28:25.840] because everything from Busted had gone to number one, it was a massive kind of artists that would've been great, but because everything from Busted had gone to number one it was a massive kind of failure.
[28:25.840 -> 28:31.800] And for a guy that's living with shame, how did that make you feel?
[28:31.800 -> 28:36.240] Embarrassed and kind of um, there was two things going on. One is that I kind of, I
[28:36.240 -> 28:41.840] knew that I hadn't done the right job, I hadn't done a good enough job and so, but part of
[28:41.840 -> 28:48.840] me was like, was quite relieved that I hadn't tried as hard as I could because it had failed and I could kind of rely on that while I was fucked up.
[28:48.840 -> 28:56.240] It wasn't a big deal, you know, but actually it killed me that that didn't work because I think at that point I didn't have anything else going on.
[28:56.600 -> 29:03.520] And that was the only thing that I had to strive towards, you know, so it was when that didn't work out.
[29:05.760 -> 29:12.080] strive towards, you know, so it was, um, when that didn't work out, it was a big, a big kind of dawning moment on me that, you know, you have very little to do right now.
[29:12.080 -> 29:17.440] And when this happens, how do people deal with it from the record labels perspective
[29:17.440 -> 29:22.800] or the PR companies? Like, do they sugarcoat this and go, you know, the economic conditions
[29:22.800 -> 29:28.400] aren't quite right for solo artists at the moment? And with it, or do they just go, we gave you a chance and you blew it, mate?
[29:28.400 -> 29:32.440] Well, I think people stop picking up the phone, you know, and people stop checking on me and
[29:32.440 -> 29:33.440] stop kind of like...
[29:33.440 -> 29:34.440] And that sends a message.
[29:34.440 -> 29:38.640] It sends a message, you know, like suddenly when your diary isn't full, you know, and
[29:38.640 -> 29:43.800] you've got nothing happening and no one's really caring about, and the offer for a second
[29:43.800 -> 29:45.640] album was not there, you know,
[29:45.640 -> 29:47.120] and I was like, what happens now?
[29:47.120 -> 29:47.840] Kind of that kind of thing.
[29:47.840 -> 29:50.080] It was a very, it was an obvious sign.
[29:50.080 -> 29:52.560] I'd heard of this happening to loads of bands that my mates were in.
[29:52.800 -> 29:54.360] So I kind of knew what was happening.
[29:55.200 -> 29:56.920] And the answer was more drink and more drugs, wasn't it?
[29:57.200 -> 30:00.680] The answer was, yeah, just, just hide away and drink and use.
[30:01.000 -> 30:03.480] Did you go into rehab while you in busted or only after?
[30:03.480 -> 30:04.560] No, only after.
[30:04.560 -> 30:04.800] Right.
[30:04.800 -> 30:09.920] So who sent you? Whilst I was making the first record, I knew I was in real trouble with
[30:09.920 -> 30:13.600] everybody and I kind of had them in turn up to sessions hadn't been doing stuff and they were
[30:13.600 -> 30:19.440] spending a lot of money on me and so I kind of went I need to do something dramatic to kind of
[30:19.440 -> 30:24.720] get people on side again so I went to rehab and I went to this really posh place and I kind of just
[30:24.720 -> 30:27.800] went right I'm going that's it and I kind of went within a few days. So I went to rehab and I went to this really posh place and I kind of just went right I'm going, that's it. And I kind of went within a few days.
[30:27.800 -> 30:33.680] An interesting way to describe rehab, to get people back on side. It's almost like you're
[30:33.680 -> 30:37.760] talking about it like I haven't got a problem, but these people have, so I'm going to go
[30:37.760 -> 30:40.720] to rehab to sort their problem with me out. Do you know what I'm saying?
[30:40.720 -> 30:44.320] That's exactly what was my thought pattern. I was like these people seem to think this
[30:44.320 -> 30:48.480] is a problem, so I'm going to go and show them that it's not you know by kind of going
[30:48.480 -> 30:51.600] What's the most ultimate way of doing that well? I've got a rehab and show them. I'm fine
[30:51.860 -> 30:55.660] You know and I went there and I came out I went there for two weeks
[30:55.660 -> 30:57.660] I think the first time and I came out and I
[30:57.660 -> 31:02.260] Drunk the next day because then you can't be truthful in rehab because you don't even feel you should be in rehab
[31:02.260 -> 31:08.040] I was just counting down a day so like I leave you know You know, I said I'd give them 14 days because we had to do a single promo.
[31:08.440 -> 31:10.120] And so I had to start promo on this day.
[31:10.120 -> 31:11.280] So I've got 14 days, right?
[31:11.280 -> 31:17.000] You got me for 14 days and I literally just counted down the days and six of them were on a detox to come off booze.
[31:17.400 -> 31:23.120] And then once I was in therapy and stuff, I just kind of stayed still, waited, counted down my time and left.
[31:23.600 -> 31:26.000] And the second time I did exactly the same thing,
[31:26.000 -> 31:29.440] but for the people I was working with and for Emma,
[31:29.440 -> 31:30.720] cause she was really worried about me
[31:30.720 -> 31:31.960] and kind of, I knew I was in big trouble.
[31:31.960 -> 31:33.840] So I kind of went there to kind of go,
[31:33.840 -> 31:36.200] well, I'll take it seriously this time, you know,
[31:36.200 -> 31:39.580] but I really wasn't, I just wanted to do what I wanted to do
[31:39.580 -> 31:41.880] and kind of like get people off my back a bit.
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[36:19.560 -> 36:30.760] details. And what was your relationship like with yourself? Because I'm like a theme that's I'm hearing
[36:30.760 -> 36:36.360] from a lot of your answers, Matt, is that you didn't value yourself more. So Busted
[36:36.360 -> 36:43.820] was a success in spite of you. You know, your solo album flopped because you didn't try.
[36:43.820 -> 36:45.360] It was almost like you didn't
[36:45.360 -> 36:49.720] put yourself, your whole self out there so you could find an excuse or
[36:49.720 -> 36:54.160] mitigation if things didn't, so if it came off there was a reason, if it didn't
[36:54.160 -> 36:58.640] come off there was a reason. What's your relationship like with yourself,
[36:58.640 -> 37:02.920] your own self-worth? I think that was the biggest problem with me, you know, like I
[37:02.920 -> 37:06.120] remember doing a TV presenting gig,
[37:06.120 -> 37:08.920] you know, I was kind of like everything was going badly,
[37:08.920 -> 37:12.200] and they were like, right, okay, we got you presenting gig on this music thing.
[37:12.200 -> 37:15.600] And I was like, how do I do that? How do I present?
[37:15.600 -> 37:17.200] And they were like, oh, just be yourself.
[37:17.200 -> 37:18.600] I remember them telling me that.
[37:18.600 -> 37:21.320] I was like, wow, I fucking hate myself.
[37:21.320 -> 37:22.520] I don't want to be that guy.
[37:22.520 -> 37:25.440] I always
[37:23.000 -> 37:27.640] had this overwhelming kind of self
[37:25.440 -> 37:29.720] hatred that kind of followed me around
[37:27.640 -> 37:31.880] and I kind of them so I put on these
[37:29.720 -> 37:33.800] different masks of people that I think
[37:31.880 -> 37:35.760] people would like you know like Matt
[37:33.800 -> 37:37.360] from busted was a fucking great one you
[37:35.760 -> 37:39.200] know like he was so his people liked
[37:37.360 -> 37:41.000] him people invited him to places you
[37:39.200 -> 37:43.640] know that kind of stuff until they
[37:41.000 -> 37:46.520] didn't till I became a liability you
[37:43.640 -> 37:45.360] know but that self-worth
[37:45.360 -> 37:51.240] thing was a really hard one for me to kind of come to terms with. It's still a
[37:51.240 -> 37:55.360] struggle sometimes now, but I kind of have ways of kind of, you know, like, is
[37:55.360 -> 37:58.600] that a fact or is that a thought? Those kind of things come into play all the time.
[37:58.600 -> 38:02.560] Stevenson Give us an example, because I think there's people listening to this that will be
[38:02.560 -> 38:07.440] able to recognize some of those.
[38:04.760 -> 38:10.080] Yeah, like I always kind of think, you know,
[38:07.440 -> 38:11.840] when something is about to happen or
[38:10.080 -> 38:14.120] gonna happen, be it good, bad or
[38:11.840 -> 38:16.440] otherwise, there's always a thought that
[38:14.120 -> 38:18.440] creeps into my head that you're not
[38:16.440 -> 38:20.520] good enough, you're not worthy enough, you're
[38:18.440 -> 38:23.400] a fraud, all this kind of stuff. I have to
[38:20.520 -> 38:24.880] really control that thought pattern and
[38:23.400 -> 38:28.680] not let it escalate. So I kind of always have this thing, is that a thought or is that a fact?
[38:29.200 -> 38:31.920] You know, and then I can kind of go, right, okay, what is that?
[38:32.200 -> 38:33.320] Where's it coming from?
[38:33.320 -> 38:34.600] Because it's always a thought.
[38:34.960 -> 38:37.600] It's not, you know, I mean, if someone's asked me to run a marathon tomorrow,
[38:37.600 -> 38:42.000] I'd say that's, that's a valid thing for me to worry about because I don't know what to do there.
[38:42.000 -> 38:44.400] And I've never done it before, you know, but most of these things in my life,
[38:44.400 -> 38:46.120] I've kind of done and I can never done it before, you know, but most of these things in my life I've kind of done and I kind of can
[38:46.120 -> 38:50.520] prove that I can, you know, but I have this ability to put a wall in front of
[38:50.520 -> 38:56.500] myself before it's begun with self-loathing, you know, so I have a loads
[38:56.500 -> 39:01.400] of practices I do daily, like I start my day with a gratitude journal which is
[39:01.400 -> 39:05.760] the which I learned in rehab the last
[39:03.360 -> 39:07.440] time. I mean I've passed this on to so many
[39:05.760 -> 39:08.560] people I know, especially in recovery,
[39:07.440 -> 39:11.600] because it's the biggest thing of my day.
[39:08.560 -> 39:13.400] Like it kind of starts my day with, you
[39:11.600 -> 39:15.520] know, it seems really naff and cliche,
[39:13.400 -> 39:16.880] but it's like, I can wake up on the
[39:15.520 -> 39:19.160] wrong side of the bed every day if I want
[39:16.880 -> 39:20.960] to, you know. And I kind of say by waking
[39:19.160 -> 39:23.520] up and starting about three simple
[39:20.960 -> 39:25.520] things I'm grateful for, it changes my
[39:23.520 -> 39:26.240] thought pattern. You know, I can see that I'm grateful for them
[39:26.240 -> 39:28.120] because I deserve them, you know,
[39:28.120 -> 39:30.080] and that's a very different way to think about them
[39:30.080 -> 39:31.680] rather than I'm grateful for them
[39:31.680 -> 39:33.640] because I'm chancing my way through it.
[39:33.640 -> 39:37.800] I think of ways that I'm worthy of those things
[39:37.800 -> 39:39.120] that I'm grateful for.
[39:39.120 -> 39:40.760] I'll give you a personal example.
[39:40.760 -> 39:43.720] I remember when I became a dad,
[39:43.720 -> 39:45.840] what really left me feeling bereft once was Rwy'n cofio pan ddechreuais i fod yn oed, beth sy'n ei wneud i mi yw meddwl o'n gwrthwyneb,
[39:45.840 -> 39:48.640] oedd rhywun wedi dweud wrthym,
[39:48.640 -> 39:52.400] roeddwn i'n mynd i'r brif o'r ffynnydd
[39:52.400 -> 39:56.320] a rhai oedd wedi gofyn i mi ymdrechu hynny mewn gwirionedd,
[39:56.320 -> 39:58.320] a beth sydd wedi'i wneud i mi o'r gwrthwyneb,
[39:58.320 -> 39:59.840] oedd rhywun wedi dweud wrthym,
[39:59.840 -> 40:02.080] sut fyddwch chi'n teimlo os byddai rhywun yn sôn am eich son
[40:02.080 -> 40:03.680] yn y ffordd rydych chi'n siarad gyda chi,
[40:03.680 -> 40:07.020] a roeddwn i'n mor anodd How would you feel if somebody spoke to your son in the way that you're speaking to yourself? And I was so horrified that I thought I need to do something
[40:08.460 -> 40:10.060] to correct this.
[40:10.060 -> 40:14.020] And I'm interested for somebody that had this self-loathing,
[40:14.020 -> 40:19.020] this destructive tendency, this propensity to addiction.
[40:19.020 -> 40:21.360] When you became a father,
[40:21.360 -> 40:27.520] what sort of emotions, questions and
[40:24.640 -> 40:29.360] challenges did that stir up for you? Well
[40:27.520 -> 40:31.760] that was the the changing moment in my
[40:29.360 -> 40:34.240] life, you know, because I can't really,
[40:31.760 -> 40:36.520] like I said, I never meant to be in a
[40:34.240 -> 40:38.240] band, I never meant to go to drama school
[40:36.520 -> 40:40.720] and be an actor or anything, but I kind
[40:38.240 -> 40:43.200] of, um, I always wanted to be a dad, you know,
[40:40.720 -> 40:45.040] when I think back to everything in my
[40:43.200 -> 40:45.960] life, the only thing I ever wanted to be was a father.
[40:45.960 -> 40:50.040] I had the image of them in my head, I kind of could imagine myself being a dad, I knew
[40:50.040 -> 40:55.520] what I wasn't going to do, you know, very strong opinion on what I wasn't going to do
[40:55.520 -> 40:57.840] and what kind of father I was going to be.
[40:57.840 -> 41:03.920] And I had my daughter and she was about eight months and I missed her crawling for the first
[41:03.920 -> 41:06.520] time and my wife's birthday party
[41:06.520 -> 41:11.600] because I was out getting fucked and the next day I kind of um I woke up and Emma
[41:11.600 -> 41:16.280] came in she didn't shout at me, she didn't yell at me, she just told me what I'd missed
[41:16.280 -> 41:23.680] and that she wasn't gonna stand for it and and it it hit me all of a sudden
[41:23.680 -> 41:35.180] that I was gonna be a terrible father and it was the one thing that I had always planned not to be the only thing I'd ever planned not to be and I was going to do that,
[41:35.440 -> 41:44.380] I was going to do that to this little little person who I love more than I never felt in my entire life and I was going to repeat that cycle of shit and it,
[41:43.360 -> 41:43.880] my life and I was going to repeat that cycle of shit.
[41:49.040 -> 41:55.720] And it made me drop to my knees and ask for help, you know, for the first time ever. Like, I mean it, you know, like, um, I was always kind of mitigating damage, you know,
[41:55.720 -> 42:00.000] I was always kind of trying to keep people, keep all these fucking plates in the air,
[42:00.000 -> 42:05.480] you know, like, but at this point I was like, I have nothing that I can do, you know,
[42:05.480 -> 42:09.200] because everything I do is not working, I need help.
[42:09.200 -> 42:13.120] And it was, and it really, and I asked for help
[42:13.120 -> 42:14.240] and I was given it.
[42:14.240 -> 42:19.240] And that was the real turning point in my life
[42:19.660 -> 42:20.600] with addiction, really.
[42:20.600 -> 42:24.720] It kind of, you know, people say about rock bottoms,
[42:24.720 -> 42:25.600] like, which I hear
[42:25.600 -> 42:29.280] quite a lot in recovery, which is a terrifying prospect because I don't
[42:29.280 -> 42:33.560] really like that term because you hear, oh, it just hasn't hit its rock bottom yet.
[42:33.560 -> 42:38.960] I'm like, people die in rock bottoms all the time. Do we have to wait till it's
[42:38.960 -> 42:43.400] one that society deems a success? You know, what does that mean? You know,
[42:43.400 -> 42:45.520] whereas this, this night that
[42:45.520 -> 42:52.720] I had was no different to thousands of nights I've had, but the prospect of what I would
[42:52.720 -> 43:00.080] lose and what I would, what I would pass on to my child was too much for me to comprehend.
[43:00.080 -> 43:08.480] So I think that was the, the moment when it really, it gave me something bigger than myself.
[43:08.480 -> 43:10.560] In recovery circles, they say a high power.
[43:10.560 -> 43:11.960] I don't know what that means,
[43:11.960 -> 43:14.400] but I know that I had something
[43:14.400 -> 43:18.120] that was larger than myself to care for.
[43:18.120 -> 43:21.160] And that was what really turned the corner for me.
[43:21.160 -> 43:23.280] Wow, I mean, it's hugely moving to hear you
[43:23.280 -> 43:24.600] talk about it like that.
[43:24.600 -> 43:28.880] And then you go into rehab after that then? No, I'd been to rehab before that and
[43:28.880 -> 43:33.360] before we got married I was really in a really bad way and so I went to to rehab.
[43:33.360 -> 43:37.080] I came out of rehab three days for my wedding day and I was sober on my
[43:37.080 -> 43:41.080] wedding day which is amazing and I had a honeymoon and I had a period of time
[43:41.080 -> 43:45.920] where everyone seemed to be you know happy, happy with me, you know, and
[43:45.920 -> 43:50.920] then I just started to fuck up again. And I think, but then when I had Isabel, I don't
[43:50.920 -> 43:55.840] know, it became so much more shameful, like, than more than I'd ever felt before, because
[43:55.840 -> 44:01.760] it was like, I could no longer rationalise it. I could no longer deny it away. It was
[44:01.760 -> 44:03.600] just me acting addictively.
[44:03.600 -> 44:06.000] So you stopped then without rehab?
[44:06.000 -> 44:13.000] Without rehab, yeah. But that moment, I think, gave me something that they talk about, you
[44:13.000 -> 44:17.200] know, that's kind of like, there's something that's larger than yourself. And then I did
[44:17.200 -> 44:22.120] everything I was told, and I found other ways to keep my, you know, kind of addictions at
[44:22.120 -> 44:25.120] bay, you know, not even at bay, just to kind of just dismiss
[44:25.120 -> 44:28.840] them and kind of focus on being a better person every day.
[44:28.840 -> 44:30.940] And how long ago was that?
[44:30.940 -> 44:39.560] That was 12, 13 years ago, but I relapsed about six years ago, which kind of came out
[44:39.560 -> 44:40.560] the blue, really.
[44:40.560 -> 44:44.440] It was, I was, I was away with a band and I've been, I've been clean for eight years
[44:44.440 -> 44:45.840] and done anything. I was kind of in a place in my life where I felt like I was away with a band and I'd been clean for eight years, hadn't done anything.
[44:45.840 -> 44:49.680] I was kind of in a place in my life where I felt like I was alright. And then I was
[44:49.680 -> 44:55.760] on tour and someone we were hanging around with was doing gear in my dressing room and
[44:55.760 -> 45:00.080] they offered me a note and I just went, whoomp. It's funny because relapses don't happen by
[45:00.080 -> 45:07.100] accident. You know, I've been planning something like this for a while. I've been kind of knowing that I wasn't part of the party.
[45:07.100 -> 45:11.560] You know, I was very much on my own all the time and I kind of, and it was a way to keep
[45:11.560 -> 45:12.560] myself safe.
[45:12.560 -> 45:13.560] Where had the guy gone?
[45:13.560 -> 45:17.680] He was on his knees in the bedroom with an eight month old saying this never happens
[45:17.680 -> 45:21.880] again like, yeah, what happened to that Matt at this point?
[45:21.880 -> 45:24.040] I think he thought he was over it, right?
[45:24.040 -> 45:25.520] I had thought at that point that I think he thought he was over it. Right. I had thought at that
[45:25.520 -> 45:31.560] point that I'd done enough. So devious isn't it? Addiction is so devious. It's almost like it's going to you know
[45:31.560 -> 45:36.320] what you've done eight years, six years so I reckon you could have a drink now.
[45:36.320 -> 45:41.320] Yeah. You're fine, you're no longer an addict. The way I rationalised it was very similar
[45:41.320 -> 45:44.920] because I was like well alcohol is my downfall I just did coke to keep me sober.
[45:44.920 -> 45:46.720] So you just thought I'll take some coke and I'll be…
[45:46.720 -> 45:50.920] So I'll just do just cocaine, that's alright, you know, that's perfectly acceptable, that's
[45:50.920 -> 45:55.760] fine, you know, so I didn't drink the entire time during my relapse and that was what allowed
[45:55.760 -> 46:01.840] me to kind of rationalize using, you know, but I wasn't using coke like anybody else
[46:01.840 -> 46:05.960] does, you know, I was using coke alcoholically, you know,
[46:04.440 -> 46:07.960] like I was doing it all day long every
[46:05.960 -> 46:11.520] day, you know, and it was, um, and that lasted
[46:07.960 -> 46:13.040] about four months, you know, until there
[46:11.520 -> 46:15.720] was nowhere else for me to hide, and I
[46:13.040 -> 46:17.600] kind of got on my knees again to my wife
[46:15.720 -> 46:20.520] and told her everything, and kind of, then
[46:17.600 -> 46:21.560] I went and got help immediately. I think
[46:20.520 -> 46:24.120] we should probably talk about your wife
[46:21.560 -> 46:26.120] then, and her pivotal role in this whole
[46:24.120 -> 46:25.220] story. Yeah.
[46:25.220 -> 46:28.520] You said earlier on in the interview, you said, I just always wore different masks.
[46:28.520 -> 46:32.440] Like I wore the Matt from Busted mask, which was like the fun time guy.
[46:32.440 -> 46:33.120] Yeah.
[46:33.120 -> 46:36.400] When you first met Emma, like were you wearing a mask then?
[46:36.400 -> 46:41.000] And if so, how long did you wear the mask for before she sort of really got to know you?
[46:41.000 -> 46:49.920] At the beginning, I was wearing the Matt from Busted mask because people like that guy. It's weird to talk about my wife this way but like I was so amazed
[46:49.920 -> 46:55.520] that she was even dating me. Like like really I was fucking like she was in my phone as
[46:55.520 -> 47:00.320] the fit girl from MTV. I couldn't believe that she was texting me back at the beginning
[47:00.320 -> 47:04.240] you know and kind of like these kind of things and like let alone that I was with her you
[47:04.240 -> 47:06.240] know. So I mean that lasted a while.
[47:06.240 -> 47:10.640] Yeah, well of course it did because you're the guy full of shame, so yeah, you're not meant to be loved or have
[47:10.640 -> 47:15.880] people show you affection. Exactly, especially not this like woman who I worshipped, you know,
[47:15.880 -> 47:19.080] like I couldn't believe that she was with me, you know, and like, but you know, over
[47:19.080 -> 47:23.240] time those things, you know, we come to know the real you and I'm not sure whether
[47:23.240 -> 47:32.840] that was a good thing or a bad thing for her. But from, uh, she was, she, she was everything. I wasn't, you know, like I couldn't
[47:32.840 -> 47:37.760] believe that she was like, she, I'd never met anybody like her.
[47:37.760 -> 47:39.680] What do you mean by that? She was everything you wasn't.
[47:39.680 -> 47:45.000] Well, she was, um, what I suppose people would call normal as incredible as she is, you know,
[47:45.000 -> 47:46.600] like her family were like this,
[47:46.680 -> 47:49.160] this amazing unit and they,
[47:49.520 -> 47:51.720] I remember going around to her house once and um,
[47:52.040 -> 47:55.160] and I'd been out with her the night before and we'd stayed at her parents house
[47:55.160 -> 47:58.320] and we woke up and then there was no plan the next day.
[47:58.340 -> 47:59.360] There was nothing to do.
[47:59.360 -> 48:01.000] They just hung out with each other in the,
[48:01.000 -> 48:04.000] in the living room all day and that's what they wanted to do.
[48:04.440 -> 48:04.800] I was like,
[48:04.800 -> 48:07.900] wait, so you just want to, you just want to spend time with each other.
[48:07.900 -> 48:11.000] That's all you want to do, you know, drink tea and chat and spend time.
[48:11.100 -> 48:15.400] I couldn't believe that people did this, you know, like it was, it was so alien to me.
[48:15.800 -> 48:16.100] I don't know.
[48:16.100 -> 48:17.700] There was no bullshit with her.
[48:18.000 -> 48:20.100] There was not, there was not what you see is what you get.
[48:20.100 -> 48:21.100] There was no pretense.
[48:21.100 -> 48:23.500] It was no acting different in a certain situation.
[48:23.500 -> 48:29.160] There was just her and she just be this person and everywhere she went and it was incredible
[48:29.160 -> 48:30.560] to kind of see, you know.
[48:30.560 -> 48:35.780] And what was the effect on you of being in a stable family environment like that?
[48:35.780 -> 48:40.480] People just wanting to speak to you, not Matt from Busted.
[48:40.480 -> 48:42.340] How did that make you feel?
[48:42.340 -> 48:48.000] It was quite hard at the beginning, if I'm honest. It was quite, um, it was really weird for me to be in any kind of, like,
[48:48.000 -> 48:52.000] I used to hate social situations, but then I'd drink,
[48:52.000 -> 48:54.000] and everything would be alright, you know, like, um,
[48:54.000 -> 48:58.000] but, like, to not be able to do that, and just be there and just be,
[48:58.000 -> 49:01.000] was really difficult for me, because I had to kind of turn it into
[49:01.000 -> 49:04.000] some kind of performance, or, you know, or be the,
[49:04.000 -> 49:06.680] I don't know, like, whatever they wanted me to be, you know, and they didn't some kind of performance or, you know, or be the, I don't know, like whatever they wanted me to be, you know,
[49:06.680 -> 49:09.200] they didn't want me to be anything, you know, which was really,
[49:09.200 -> 49:11.320] really hard for me to comprehend and understand.
[49:11.600 -> 49:14.560] So I probably acted like an absolute dick for many years, you know,
[49:14.560 -> 49:18.480] kind of like trying to be this thing that I think they'd like, you know,
[49:18.480 -> 49:19.920] and actually they just liked me.
[49:20.680 -> 49:23.400] So people know Emma as a TV presenter.
[49:24.200 -> 49:26.000] Tell us what she's like as a wife and as a mum.
[49:26.000 -> 49:36.680] She's the most selfless, loving person I've ever met in my life. And I can understand why she ended
[49:36.680 -> 49:46.120] up with me in a way, because she's a fixer. She sees something and she wants to fix it, you know, she wants, she's very
[49:44.200 -> 49:47.800] caring, you know, like people say
[49:46.120 -> 49:50.320] they're very caring, but Emery's
[49:47.800 -> 49:51.920] it's in her DNA. And I think that was what
[49:50.320 -> 49:53.440] she found quite hard with me, is that she
[49:51.920 -> 49:55.960] didn't, at the end, she didn't know what
[49:53.440 -> 49:59.240] else to do. But she was fun, she was
[49:55.960 -> 50:00.840] cool, she was just an amazing, incredible
[49:59.240 -> 50:03.920] human that I couldn't believe that she
[50:00.840 -> 50:06.240] was kind of
[50:01.640 -> 50:09.600] hanging out with me. So as an addict, what
[50:06.240 -> 50:11.320] advice would you give for people out
[50:09.600 -> 50:13.840] there that might be listening to this, that
[50:11.320 -> 50:16.080] maybe can see some of these patterns of
[50:13.840 -> 50:18.320] behavior, maybe it's not manifesting
[50:16.080 -> 50:21.240] itself in drink or drugs but it might
[50:18.320 -> 50:24.280] be other addictive behaviors like a work
[50:21.240 -> 50:26.360] ethic or addiction to social media, it
[50:24.280 -> 50:27.080] can be a
[50:24.560 -> 50:29.120] myriad of other things. What advice
[50:27.080 -> 50:32.000] would you give for anybody out there that
[50:29.120 -> 50:34.480] wants to help somebody that they see in
[50:32.000 -> 50:35.920] the grip of an addiction? I think this is
[50:34.480 -> 50:37.920] the hardest question in the world,
[50:35.920 -> 50:39.360] because I've always been told that you
[50:37.920 -> 50:41.840] can't help anybody until they're ready to
[50:39.360 -> 50:43.600] be helped, you know, and I do think there
[50:41.840 -> 50:46.040] is something in that. I wish there wasn't,
[50:43.600 -> 50:45.600] because I've tried, you know, and I do think there is something in that. I wish there wasn't, because I've tried.
[50:45.600 -> 50:48.360] You know, like, I mean, I meet people all the time,
[50:48.360 -> 50:52.000] and I get people passed on to me
[50:52.000 -> 50:53.000] that people are worried about,
[50:53.000 -> 50:56.000] and I talk to them, and there's a barrier
[50:56.000 -> 51:00.360] that is until you're ready to accept
[51:00.360 -> 51:04.320] the problem that you have, it's impossible to penetrate.
[51:04.320 -> 51:07.000] You know, and even when you can penetrate it,
[51:07.000 -> 51:10.000] there's always the risk of something else getting in the way.
[51:10.000 -> 51:14.000] I read this amazing book by Dr. Anna Lembke,
[51:14.000 -> 51:17.000] she talks about dopamine and kind of like the imbalance in the body of dopamine.
[51:17.000 -> 51:21.000] She always does something which I have started to do with people,
[51:21.000 -> 51:25.040] because there's a difference between addiction and problem drinking because I there's a difference between
[51:23.120 -> 51:26.800] addiction and problem drinking and there's
[51:25.040 -> 51:28.720] difference between problem using and
[51:26.800 -> 51:32.080] and addiction you know and I think
[51:28.720 -> 51:33.920] there's a real test which is a 30-day
[51:32.080 -> 51:34.720] test right it's if you can stay out the
[51:33.920 -> 51:36.480] way
[51:34.720 -> 51:38.800] from your substance of choice whatever
[51:36.480 -> 51:42.240] that be be it alcohol be it
[51:38.800 -> 51:44.560] drugs be it sex be it gambling be it
[51:42.240 -> 51:47.120] social media whatever it is for 30 days
[51:44.560 -> 51:45.840] you can reset some of
[51:45.840 -> 51:50.560] those neuro pathways in your brain so you can rewire those things, right?
[51:50.560 -> 51:55.760] It takes 30 days, but you can readdress your relationship with that thing.
[51:55.760 -> 52:02.600] And if after those 30 days, life is better, your relationships are better, you feel good
[52:02.600 -> 52:08.740] about yourself, everything's good, then maybe you have to address the feeling of, do you want that back in your life?
[52:08.740 -> 52:13.160] And then you have to face the thing of, can you bring it back in your life?
[52:13.160 -> 52:17.620] You know, and I'm not there to say anything because each to their own, if they can, then
[52:17.620 -> 52:18.620] fucking good on them.
[52:18.620 -> 52:19.620] I wish I could.
[52:19.620 -> 52:24.840] Actually, no, I don't actually wish I could, but I admire people that can, you know, but
[52:24.840 -> 52:27.800] I definitely can't. don't actually wish I could but um but I I admire people that can you know but I
[52:24.800 -> 52:29.560] definitely can't but um and if you can't
[52:27.800 -> 52:31.840] last at 30 days and maybe you have a
[52:29.560 -> 52:34.360] problem. And what about healthy
[52:31.840 -> 52:37.120] addiction so what I mean by that is
[52:34.360 -> 52:39.120] stuff that society goes oh that's
[52:37.120 -> 52:41.400] brilliant that you've got such a strong
[52:39.120 -> 52:44.240] work ethic but it might be crossing into
[52:41.400 -> 52:47.120] the boundary of some kind of addiction
[52:44.240 -> 52:47.640] or it might be crossing into the boundary of some kind of addiction or it
[52:44.600 -> 52:49.240] might be somebody obsessed by a fitness
[52:47.640 -> 52:51.920] goal or something like that that's
[52:49.240 -> 52:54.160] pushing themselves. Like what's you? I think
[52:51.920 -> 52:56.320] it always comes down to why. For me
[52:54.160 -> 52:59.880] drinking drugs don't come into my life
[52:56.320 -> 53:02.080] every day but behavior does, you know.
[52:59.880 -> 53:06.280] And it's my behavior which worries me and
[53:02.080 -> 53:06.360] I can become addict-like about pretty it's my behavior which worries me and I
[53:02.160 -> 53:08.720] can become addict-like about pretty much
[53:06.360 -> 53:10.120] anything. Right. You know, and I find myself
[53:08.720 -> 53:12.760] getting like it quite often with
[53:10.120 -> 53:14.640] things and normally my wife's the first one
[53:12.760 -> 53:17.000] to say you need to pay attention to this
[53:14.640 -> 53:19.320] but a lot of the time I do pick it up
[53:17.000 -> 53:21.720] myself and it's always like what am I
[53:19.320 -> 53:23.920] trying to soothe. What sort of things then?
[53:21.720 -> 53:25.440] Well I mean exercise is a big thing for
[53:23.920 -> 53:29.420] that for me for a long time. Like when I got clean I kind of found exercise and like
[53:29.420 -> 53:32.740] there's been times in my life when I've had the bleep of a watch from Tupperware
[53:32.740 -> 53:37.200] and kind of trained for a bodybuilding competition that's never happening and
[53:37.200 -> 53:42.000] food is a real issue for me at times you know. But I think with anything it comes
[53:42.000 -> 53:46.960] down to what are you trying to dull? You know, what are you using this for?
[53:46.960 -> 53:49.200] And I have to ask myself those questions quite a lot.
[53:49.200 -> 53:50.640] And sometimes they're all right.
[53:50.640 -> 53:55.360] You know, that's the thing that sometimes, like working out most days is okay.
[53:55.360 -> 53:56.080] It's good for your health.
[53:56.080 -> 53:57.920] It kind of keeps you longevity.
[53:57.920 -> 53:59.600] All these kinds of things are fantastic for,
[53:59.600 -> 54:02.560] but if I'm doing it as a form of punishment,
[54:02.560 -> 54:04.160] which can happen sometimes,
[54:04.160 -> 54:05.360] or if I'm doing it as a form of punishment, which can happen sometimes, or if I'm doing it as
[54:05.360 -> 54:10.200] a form of just getting away from everything else, that can be a problem for me.
[54:10.200 -> 54:14.640] But, um, you know, I think society, we don't look at these in the same way, you know, we
[54:14.640 -> 54:19.440] kind of, we celebrate these kinds of things, like especially, um, workaholics, we celebrate
[54:19.440 -> 54:23.880] these people, you know, but if you look at these people who are, you know, the most powerful
[54:23.880 -> 54:28.360] people that I'm sure, you know, I don't know the relationship that Jeff Bezos has with his
[54:28.360 -> 54:30.840] family, but I'm sure they miss him sometimes.
[54:30.840 -> 54:35.640] You know, like, you know, there's got to be, there's got to be so much that you give up,
[54:35.640 -> 54:40.200] you know, to be that kind of workaholic, you know, so, and for me, I have to really address
[54:40.200 -> 54:41.200] those things.
[54:41.200 -> 54:47.280] So would you tell us some of the key questions that you have
[54:44.760 -> 54:48.960] learned to ask yourself when you think
[54:47.280 -> 54:53.200] that you might be going down that path,
[54:48.960 -> 54:54.640] whether it's a destructive or even
[54:53.200 -> 54:57.080] what might be regarded as socially
[54:54.640 -> 54:58.840] acceptable addiction. What are the kind
[54:57.080 -> 55:01.320] of questions you ask yourself that give
[54:58.840 -> 55:04.160] you a pause for thought and stop it
[55:01.320 -> 55:06.080] spiraling? I think for me it always comes
[55:04.160 -> 55:05.720] down to what's going on in my life right stop it, it's parallel. I think for me it
[55:03.800 -> 55:08.760] always comes down to what's going on in
[55:05.720 -> 55:11.280] my life right now. Am I living the way
[55:08.760 -> 55:12.800] that I want to, you know, with these
[55:11.280 -> 55:16.000] certain aspects of my life which can be
[55:12.800 -> 55:18.880] purpose, you know, which is a hard one for
[55:16.000 -> 55:20.920] me, you know, but family is the big
[55:18.880 -> 55:23.200] part of that for me. Am I
[55:20.920 -> 55:26.240] fulfilling these parts of my family
[55:23.200 -> 55:27.440] life which I should be? When I'm not, it's usually because something else
[55:27.440 -> 55:28.680] is creeping in the way.
[55:28.680 -> 55:31.680] Am I doing everything I can for what I love?
[55:31.680 -> 55:33.420] And that can be work sometimes.
[55:33.420 -> 55:36.720] For me, I have a real funny relationship with that
[55:36.720 -> 55:39.820] because sometimes you need to put everything you have
[55:39.820 -> 55:42.280] into something, you know, and especially with the band,
[55:42.280 -> 55:44.760] there's times in my life when I have to put everything
[55:44.760 -> 55:45.920] I have into this times in my life when
[55:43.280 -> 55:48.880] I have to put everything I have into
[55:45.920 -> 55:50.640] this entity with my life and things can't
[55:48.880 -> 55:53.200] fall away but I think there's I listen to
[55:50.640 -> 55:55.600] these people talk about how they how
[55:53.200 -> 55:57.120] this couple would have a quarterly they'd
[55:55.600 -> 55:59.760] sit down they'd mark each other out of
[55:57.120 -> 56:02.520] ten on these different aspects of their
[55:59.760 -> 56:04.640] life whether like it be provider lover
[56:02.520 -> 56:05.880] parent all these kind of things and
[56:04.640 -> 56:05.080] they'd mark each
[56:05.080 -> 56:09.480] other at a 10. As long as they're getting 30, then they're doing okay. You know, but
[56:09.480 -> 56:14.640] like, no, I would not go down very well in my house, but they mark each other on it.
[56:14.640 -> 56:17.520] But, um, I think that's the thing, like I have these different things and sometimes
[56:17.520 -> 56:21.560] one of them can fall away a little bit as long as the others are okay. As long as I
[56:21.560 -> 56:26.480] pay attention to that one one I can go back to
[56:23.040 -> 56:28.880] it and build it back up you know but I do
[56:26.480 -> 56:30.600] have problems with that you know about
[56:28.880 -> 56:32.280] finding balance I don't know what that
[56:30.600 -> 56:34.400] work-life balance is I don't really
[56:32.280 -> 56:35.840] understand that yet you know so I'm still
[56:34.400 -> 56:39.120] kind of coming to work terms with that.
[56:35.840 -> 56:41.720] What about marriage because you know
[56:39.120 -> 56:44.200] remaining married is is enough of a
[56:41.720 -> 56:46.960] challenge for most people yeah remaining
[56:44.200 -> 56:45.360] married to an addict when you have three married is is enough of a challenge for
[56:42.240 -> 56:47.640] most people. Yeah. Remaining married to an
[56:45.360 -> 56:50.080] addict when you have three kids and you
[56:47.640 -> 56:51.760] your wife has a high-profile life with
[56:50.080 -> 56:54.000] demands on her own time and other things
[56:51.760 -> 56:55.680] like that is a real that's a real
[56:54.000 -> 56:57.440] challenge so you clearly have a high
[56:55.680 -> 57:00.640] performance marriage what are the
[56:57.440 -> 57:03.000] secrets? Brutal honesty. Yeah. You know
[57:00.640 -> 57:05.640] but that comes up in every part of my
[57:03.000 -> 57:10.400] life now which is something which I fought against so hard in early recovery, kind of like I lied about everything.
[57:10.400 -> 57:25.540] I never told the truth once to anybody at any, at any moment, really, you know, now I have to be brutally honest about everything, even if, unless it will cause the other person incredible harm. I am really honest about things. And I think me and Emma
[57:25.540 -> 57:32.340] have that. We're able to go, Hey, this is not cool, or this is affecting me, or you
[57:32.340 -> 57:37.580] need to look at this. But I think having that kind of open dialogue is a big thing, you
[57:37.580 -> 57:41.060] know, being able to talk about stuff, you know, and plus we've got history that proves
[57:41.060 -> 57:45.140] that I don't do very well with secrets, you know, like
[57:45.140 -> 57:52.300] they can eat away at me. And what I've learned from everybody I've met in recovery is you
[57:52.300 -> 57:57.640] never really get away with anything, really. You never really, you think maybe you've got
[57:57.640 -> 58:02.120] away with that from a few years ago, you haven't. You know, it will either come back to you
[58:02.120 -> 58:08.800] in a few years, or it will eat the fuck away at you for so long that it will cause something that will erupt into something else.
[58:08.800 -> 58:11.960] So really kind of being as honest as possible is the most safest way.
[58:11.960 -> 58:17.200] And do you have ground rules now that you and Emma work to, like, if you're feeling
[58:17.200 -> 58:22.400] a certain way, you make sure you mention it to her, or if she's scared about you, she
[58:22.400 -> 58:23.880] definitely speaks to you about it?
[58:23.880 -> 58:24.880] Do you have these?
[58:24.880 -> 58:31.440] She speaks to me about it. You know, she brings up something if she's worried or she thinks I'm not telling the truth about something, she'll bring it up with me all the time.
[58:31.440 -> 58:40.120] I have other people who I talk to about those things, you know, like I don't want to burden her with every, you know, crazy addiction thought that I have.
[58:40.120 -> 58:45.000] You know, I don't think about taking drugs and drinking daily.
[58:45.000 -> 58:49.320] Occasionally, I'll walk past a pub in the summer
[58:49.320 -> 58:51.000] and I'll see someone drinking a pint
[58:51.000 -> 58:53.600] with a condensation coming down the glass
[58:53.600 -> 58:55.600] and it'll make me go, you know.
[58:55.600 -> 58:58.720] But I have this thing which I do,
[58:58.720 -> 59:01.000] which is I fast forward the tape.
[59:01.000 -> 59:04.480] And I say that drink, if I fast forward in four hours,
[59:04.480 -> 59:06.360] I'm in a hotel room on my own taking drugs and hiding from everybody. You know, it I say that drink, if I fast-forward in four hours, I'm in a
[59:04.680 -> 59:08.160] hotel room, I'm taking drugs and hiding
[59:06.360 -> 59:09.960] from everybody, you know, it happens
[59:08.160 -> 59:13.120] every time and there's not a single time
[59:09.960 -> 59:14.920] that's ever been one, you know, never, you
[59:13.120 -> 59:17.920] know, so I know what that is and I can
[59:14.920 -> 59:20.400] fast-forward the tape. In your
[59:17.920 -> 59:23.520] explorations on this topic of trying to
[59:20.400 -> 59:25.200] understand addiction, where have you got
[59:23.520 -> 59:27.200] to in understanding how
[59:24.440 -> 59:29.160] much of it is nature and how much of it
[59:27.200 -> 59:31.320] would you regard as nurture? And I'm
[59:29.160 -> 59:34.000] thinking especially in relation to your
[59:31.320 -> 59:36.720] own children. That's something which I
[59:34.000 -> 59:38.920] was fascinated by and the thing is I
[59:36.720 -> 59:40.520] think trauma, they call it like a big T
[59:38.920 -> 59:42.280] and a little t. There's big traumas and
[59:40.520 -> 59:44.040] there's little traumas, you know, but
[59:42.280 -> 59:45.440] trauma can be something that happened to
[59:44.040 -> 59:45.240] you or it can be something that didn't happenas, you know, but trauma can be something that
[59:43.600 -> 59:47.280] happened to you or it can be something
[59:45.240 -> 59:48.840] that didn't happen enough, you know, which is
[59:47.280 -> 59:51.040] another thing which I hear, you know,
[59:48.840 -> 59:53.720] because I've met lots of people in my
[59:51.040 -> 59:55.240] life who say, especially addicts, who say
[59:53.720 -> 59:58.120] well I had the most perfect childhood and
[59:55.240 -> 59:59.840] I grew up in a loving warm home, you know,
[59:58.120 -> 01:00:01.080] and like I come from money and all this
[59:59.840 -> 01:00:03.440] kind of stuff, it doesn't make sense that
[01:00:01.080 -> 01:00:04.600] it's like that to me, and that's
[01:00:03.440 -> 01:00:05.880] when those kind of things come into play
[01:00:04.600 -> 01:00:07.360] because it doesn't have to be something that happened to you, it doesn't make sense that it's like that to me. And that's when those kind of things come into play, because it doesn't have to be something that happened to you.
[01:00:07.360 -> 01:00:10.280] It can be something that you didn't experience or can be something that didn't happen to
[01:00:10.280 -> 01:00:14.520] you enough. And it's through no fault of anybody else. This is not, and that's a big thing
[01:00:14.520 -> 01:00:19.000] for me as well, is that I spent a lot of my life blaming people for the way I behaved
[01:00:19.000 -> 01:00:24.720] and that allowed me to drink and use, because that kind of like, well, if you've been through
[01:00:24.720 -> 01:00:25.440] what I've been through, you do the same, you know. Well, there's lots of people who don't. can use because that that kind of like
[01:00:23.000 -> 01:00:27.840] well if you been through what I've been for
[01:00:25.440 -> 01:00:30.640] you do the same you know there's lots of
[01:00:27.840 -> 01:00:32.640] people who don't but I think the biggest
[01:00:30.640 -> 01:00:34.840] thing right is everything comes from
[01:00:32.640 -> 01:00:36.600] action because you're not responsible
[01:00:34.840 -> 01:00:37.880] what happened to you you know you're not
[01:00:36.600 -> 01:00:39.880] responsible for what happened to you but
[01:00:37.880 -> 01:00:42.600] you're absolutely responsible for what
[01:00:39.880 -> 01:00:45.040] you do next and that is about making the
[01:00:42.600 -> 01:00:45.200] choices in the moment that allow you to be the person you want to be rather than next and that is about making the
[01:00:42.600 -> 01:00:46.760] choices in the moment that allow you to be
[01:00:45.200 -> 01:00:48.680] the person you want to be rather than
[01:00:46.760 -> 01:00:51.240] the person that's sucked into that past.
[01:00:48.680 -> 01:00:53.640] And before you move on to our quickfire
[01:00:51.240 -> 01:00:55.520] questions to finish this interview, you
[01:00:53.640 -> 01:00:57.000] talked about total honesty. So we're
[01:00:55.520 -> 01:00:59.200] sitting here having this conversation and
[01:00:57.000 -> 01:01:01.280] you are weeks away from being back with
[01:00:59.200 -> 01:01:04.200] the band and from touring again and the
[01:01:01.280 -> 01:01:06.340] last time that you had a relapse. Yeah. That happened. So what part
[01:01:06.340 -> 01:01:11.820] does fear play in the life of a recovering addict? Fear of relapse for me
[01:01:11.820 -> 01:01:17.820] is huge. You know, I live with that and I, but I don't, when I've not had that I've
[01:01:17.820 -> 01:01:22.380] relapsed. You know, like so I don't want to let go of that. Which is not always
[01:01:22.380 -> 01:01:25.000] helpful, I can imagine for a lot of people listening,
[01:01:25.000 -> 01:01:31.000] that doesn't sound like a healthy way to live, but for me, the fear of relapsing is so terrifying
[01:01:31.000 -> 01:01:37.000] that it keeps me from picking up, you know, and it keeps me from putting myself in really ridiculous situations,
[01:01:37.000 -> 01:01:43.000] which I shouldn't be. And a lot of my life in the band is about mitigating that in a way, you know,
[01:01:43.000 -> 01:01:47.040] I'm really open and honest with them, and I tell them what I'm able to accept and what I'm not. You
[01:01:47.040 -> 01:01:51.760] know, like we have a no drugs rule, you know, in the band and our crew now
[01:01:51.760 -> 01:01:55.280] and everyone that works with us that we don't have drugs around us, you
[01:01:55.280 -> 01:01:57.840] know, like I don't mind people drinking, it doesn't bother me people drinking, but
[01:01:57.840 -> 01:02:00.960] if people are doing coke in front of me it really affects me. It's not because I
[01:02:00.960 -> 01:02:04.400] want to do it, it just makes me uneasy, you know, so I don't ever want to feel
[01:02:04.400 -> 01:02:07.540] that anymore, so I'm like if I can can I don't have to be in that situation
[01:02:07.720 -> 01:02:09.720] So if everyone can be on board with me
[01:02:09.760 -> 01:02:15.320] Then that's great and lucky my band of cool as hell with that and everyone we work with now is kind of picked and chosen
[01:02:15.320 -> 01:02:20.980] Because of that, you know, so that's a real a good way for me to live. Great. And I think that reframing of
[01:02:21.640 -> 01:02:25.280] fear from being a negative
[01:02:23.360 -> 01:02:27.680] emotion to being a positive one for you.
[01:02:25.280 -> 01:02:30.080] Almost like a, it's like your seat belt
[01:02:27.680 -> 01:02:32.240] that keeps you safe, that fear. And I think
[01:02:30.080 -> 01:02:33.920] it's okay, don't, why should society
[01:02:32.240 -> 01:02:35.360] decide that that's a negative emotion?
[01:02:33.920 -> 01:02:36.880] It might be for others but it isn't for
[01:02:35.360 -> 01:02:38.160] you and that's cool. It isn't for me but I
[01:02:36.880 -> 01:02:40.240] think I've always been driven by a bit of
[01:02:38.160 -> 01:02:42.800] fear, you know, like everything I've done
[01:02:40.240 -> 01:02:45.600] has always been driven by, in some way,
[01:02:42.800 -> 01:02:45.160] fear. But now I'm much better at leaning into it, you know, like I run towards done has always been driven by in some
[01:02:42.480 -> 01:02:47.560] way fear, but now I'm much better at
[01:02:45.160 -> 01:02:48.960] leaning into it. You know, like I run
[01:02:47.560 -> 01:02:50.120] towards things that scare me now, which
[01:02:48.960 -> 01:02:52.560] is something which I never thought I
[01:02:50.120 -> 01:02:55.200] would do. I always run away from them, but
[01:02:52.560 -> 01:02:57.040] if something's challenging or difficult, I
[01:02:55.200 -> 01:03:00.680] find myself navigating towards it these
[01:02:57.040 -> 01:03:02.440] days. Maybe it's a
[01:03:00.680 -> 01:03:05.640] little bit of an addictive tendency, but I
[01:03:02.440 -> 01:03:06.120] find that if you get something good from hard work
[01:03:06.560 -> 01:03:11.480] The goods tends to stay around a bit more, you know, and the hard work is temporary
[01:03:11.480 -> 01:03:18.680] I just think you know, this conversation is like an ultimate conversation about high performance being in a successful band
[01:03:19.400 -> 01:03:21.400] Despite the shame and the self-loathing
[01:03:21.680 -> 01:03:29.220] Managing to become a brilliant dad despite the fact that you have this constant ghost and this shadow of potential addiction, managing to
[01:03:29.220 -> 01:03:33.560] be in a successful marriage when you're, you've been on your knees crying in front of your
[01:03:33.560 -> 01:03:38.100] wife asking her to help you, you know, the ability to sit here and talk about it in the
[01:03:38.100 -> 01:03:42.820] way that you can now with utter honesty, like high performance is not gliding through life
[01:03:42.820 -> 01:03:46.680] thinking this is sweet, high performance is not gliding through life thinking this is sweet. High performance is being dealt
[01:03:46.680 -> 01:03:51.040] just scoop after scoop after scoop of crap.
[01:03:51.040 -> 01:03:53.640] And look at you being able to sit here now.
[01:03:53.640 -> 01:03:57.040] And of course you might never feel that real
[01:03:57.040 -> 01:03:58.800] sense of freedom that perhaps you deserve
[01:03:58.800 -> 01:04:00.560] for all your hard work.
[01:04:00.560 -> 01:04:02.080] But to have achieved what you have,
[01:04:02.080 -> 01:04:03.600] I think is incredible.
[01:04:03.600 -> 01:04:04.600] No, thanks man.
[01:04:04.600 -> 01:04:05.000] Thanks. Jocko says that discipline equals have, I think is incredible. No, thanks man. Thanks.
[01:04:05.000 -> 01:04:06.000] The ultimate.
[01:04:06.000 -> 01:04:07.400] Jaco says that discipline equals freedom.
[01:04:07.400 -> 01:04:08.400] I really believe that.
[01:04:08.400 -> 01:04:10.720] You know, I believe there's a freedom in that.
[01:04:10.720 -> 01:04:15.880] As long as I keep myself disciplined and I work a certain way, I can live a life that
[01:04:15.880 -> 01:04:16.880] I love.
[01:04:16.880 -> 01:04:17.880] Amazing.
[01:04:17.880 -> 01:04:18.880] Right.
[01:04:18.880 -> 01:04:19.880] Quick five questions, Matt.
[01:04:19.880 -> 01:04:20.880] All right.
[01:04:20.880 -> 01:04:24.160] The three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you would ideally buy
[01:04:24.160 -> 01:04:27.800] into? Sobriety. Everything else falls apart without it. non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you would ideally buy
[01:04:24.080 -> 01:04:31.400] into? So bright, everything else falls
[01:04:27.800 -> 01:04:33.280] apart without it. Two, gratitude journal,
[01:04:31.400 -> 01:04:35.480] I have to do that every day. And three,
[01:04:33.280 -> 01:04:39.000] supplementation. What's your biggest
[01:04:35.480 -> 01:04:41.920] strength and your greatest weakness? My
[01:04:39.000 -> 01:04:43.720] biggest strength is passion. I can
[01:04:41.920 -> 01:04:45.560] become really passionate about something
[01:04:43.720 -> 01:04:47.440] which can, my passion alone
[01:04:44.840 -> 01:04:50.920] sometimes can drive something forward. My
[01:04:47.440 -> 01:04:53.000] biggest weakness is passion. I can be so
[01:04:50.920 -> 01:04:56.640] passionate about something I can forget
[01:04:53.000 -> 01:04:59.960] to see anything else but that. So it's a
[01:04:56.640 -> 01:05:02.400] it's a gift and a curse, it's um, it's, it annoys
[01:04:59.960 -> 01:05:03.960] the shit out of people. What advice would
[01:05:02.400 -> 01:05:06.480] you give to a teenage man just
[01:05:03.960 -> 01:05:06.720] starting out? I had this amazing moment the shit out of people. What advice would you give to a teenage man just starting
[01:05:04.320 -> 01:05:09.520] out? I had this amazing moment where I
[01:05:06.720 -> 01:05:12.440] did a breathwork class, which I didn't
[01:05:09.520 -> 01:05:14.960] see coming, and I just did this like, kind
[01:05:12.440 -> 01:05:16.720] of like, really deep breathing class, and
[01:05:14.960 -> 01:05:19.440] this voice that kept going in my head was
[01:05:16.720 -> 01:05:22.880] it's not your fault, and it kind of
[01:05:19.440 -> 01:05:25.080] kept going into my brain, and something
[01:05:22.880 -> 01:05:29.040] changed in me during that class. And I don't think it's anything like spiritual or something.
[01:05:29.060 -> 01:05:31.440] I think it was about me accepting that,
[01:05:31.860 -> 01:05:32.240] you know,
[01:05:32.240 -> 01:05:32.840] and going,
[01:05:33.500 -> 01:05:34.640] it isn't your fault,
[01:05:35.400 -> 01:05:38.040] but you are responsible for what you do next.
[01:05:38.560 -> 01:05:40.560] And that was a real dawning moment on me.
[01:05:41.300 -> 01:05:44.160] So I think I just tell him a bit bloody earlier.
[01:05:44.800 -> 01:05:48.000] Yeah. Do you believe it now? I do.
[01:05:48.000 -> 01:05:52.880] I do. I really do. I really do. You know, I believe everything's about action. Is legacy
[01:05:52.880 -> 01:05:58.800] important to you? Um, I think legacy is a weird word, you know, like, um, for me, my
[01:05:58.800 -> 01:06:05.320] kids have, I suppose my legacy, you know, you know, I've always been, you know, really worried about
[01:06:05.320 -> 01:06:10.440] anything that I've done in the past that would kind of hurt them, you know, and I'm still
[01:06:10.440 -> 01:06:14.080] worried about that, you know, they weren't around during my really dark times and they
[01:06:14.080 -> 01:06:19.520] weren't and I was away during my last relapse, I wasn't at home. And so I'm, but they were
[01:06:19.520 -> 01:06:25.200] still around during that time, you know, so I do think about how much that will impact them,
[01:06:25.200 -> 01:06:30.240] but I try to do everything I can to let them know that I'm who I am right now,
[01:06:30.240 -> 01:06:33.520] but they're fucking awesome, they're wicked kids.
[01:06:33.520 -> 01:06:37.840] If you could go back to one moment in time, what would it be and why?
[01:06:37.840 -> 01:06:46.400] I do regret the Brit Awards. We won two Brits in 2004 and I left as soon as it was finished and
[01:06:46.400 -> 01:06:53.620] went to a flat and used drugs with strangers for seven hours and my band
[01:06:53.620 -> 01:06:58.320] had this incredible night, you know, and I had this and there was pictures of them
[01:06:58.320 -> 01:07:01.960] in a kebab shop with their Brit Awards in their hand and I wasn't there. I've
[01:07:01.960 -> 01:07:10.840] always regretted that, you know, if I could, I'd say stick around. And the final question, after this amazing conversation for people that have listened
[01:07:10.840 -> 01:07:14.760] to this is what would you now say is your one golden rule? The sort of final thing you'd like
[01:07:14.760 -> 01:07:19.120] to leave ringing in people's ears, your secret, I guess, to high performance?
[01:07:19.120 -> 01:07:27.000] I suppose it's step up. I was very easy to wallow and I'm I'm not okay with that anymore.
[01:07:27.000 -> 01:07:34.000] I step into things, you know, I kind of try really hard to step up and good things happen when you do.
[01:07:34.000 -> 01:07:38.000] Sometimes you fail, but that's all right. You know, as long as you kind of step up to the next thing.
[01:07:38.000 -> 01:07:40.000] Thank you so much.
[01:07:40.000 -> 01:07:45.000] Thank you.
[01:07:45.000 -> 01:07:51.440] Damien. Jake. What a moving conversation and I think most importantly of all a great reminder
[01:07:51.440 -> 01:07:55.360] to our viewers and listeners and followers that high performance takes many forms but
[01:07:55.360 -> 01:08:03.320] Matt is absolutely a high performer. Absolutely, that's the key phrase there Jake. I think
[01:08:03.320 -> 01:08:05.880] we often sort of wrestle with this idea
[01:08:05.880 -> 01:08:10.000] don't we? It's not about being number one or top of the charts or making millions
[01:08:10.000 -> 01:08:13.520] it's sometimes just overcoming the challenge in the best way that you're
[01:08:13.520 -> 01:08:18.360] capable of and I think for Matt to have experienced trauma at such a young age
[01:08:18.360 -> 01:08:27.880] and to have seen the destructive path it took him down, and to have sort of been able to do a U-turn in that,
[01:08:27.880 -> 01:08:29.200] is incredibly inspiring.
[01:08:29.200 -> 01:08:33.240] And I think maybe, like for all of us as individuals,
[01:08:33.240 -> 01:08:36.440] you know, I was talking about my own experience
[01:08:36.440 -> 01:08:39.280] of being like quite self-loathing
[01:08:39.280 -> 01:08:40.680] in some of the conversations I had,
[01:08:40.680 -> 01:08:43.640] and to hear somebody articulate how he'd managed
[01:08:43.640 -> 01:08:45.700] to stop that destructive path
[01:08:45.700 -> 01:08:48.360] of thinking is high performance.
[01:08:48.360 -> 01:08:53.060] And I love to, what I just sort of slipped in at the end there where we spoke about freedom
[01:08:53.060 -> 01:08:57.700] and I suppose I was thinking, you know, with the constant fear of addiction, will you ever
[01:08:57.700 -> 01:08:58.700] have any freedom?
[01:08:58.700 -> 01:09:00.380] But then he said, you know, for me, discipline is freedom.
[01:09:00.380 -> 01:09:04.940] You know, if he can be disciplined, if he can work on this, if he can prepare himself
[01:09:04.940 -> 01:09:07.960] mentally and physically to be in the best state, then that does bring him freedom.
[01:09:07.960 -> 01:09:12.480] And I think that's also a reminder to all of our listeners that, you know, nothing's
[01:09:12.480 -> 01:09:13.480] permanent.
[01:09:13.480 -> 01:09:17.640] This guy was at rock bottom on his knees, begging his wife, crying, having missed his
[01:09:17.640 -> 01:09:20.880] daughter crawling for the first time, and then look where he is now.
[01:09:20.880 -> 01:09:25.640] Yeah, you know know and again I
[01:09:23.200 -> 01:09:27.560] know we referenced her a number of times as
[01:09:25.640 -> 01:09:30.800] a previous guest but when we spoke to
[01:09:27.560 -> 01:09:33.200] Dr. Pippa Grain she spoke about when we
[01:09:30.800 -> 01:09:36.400] confronted by fear we need to see, face
[01:09:33.200 -> 01:09:38.120] and replace it and I think he's that
[01:09:36.400 -> 01:09:40.160] moment of surrender that he said where
[01:09:38.120 -> 01:09:42.800] you see in the fear that you're going to be
[01:09:40.160 -> 01:09:44.200] a shit dad facing it and trying to
[01:09:42.800 -> 01:09:46.840] come up with a better alternative and
[01:09:44.200 -> 01:09:46.840] then replacing it with healthier more be a shit dad, facing it and trying to come up with a better alternative and
[01:09:44.260 -> 01:09:49.520] then replacing it with healthier, more
[01:09:46.840 -> 01:09:51.640] productive habits, is a really great
[01:09:49.520 -> 01:09:55.440] example for all of us. Toby Rory-It's great, thanks
[01:09:51.640 -> 01:09:57.600] a lot mate. Matthew Fletcher-Thank you mate. Well I really
[01:09:55.440 -> 01:09:59.360] hope that you felt you got some true
[01:09:57.600 -> 01:10:02.040] value from this conversation on high
[01:09:59.360 -> 01:10:04.280] performance. Just a reminder that in the
[01:10:02.040 -> 01:10:06.480] show notes for this episode you can get
[01:10:04.280 -> 01:10:05.440] information about
[01:10:05.440 -> 01:10:09.040] where to seek help if you're struggling with an addiction of any kind.
[01:10:09.040 -> 01:10:12.960] And I just really want to say huge thanks to you, not just for coming and listening,
[01:10:12.960 -> 01:10:14.960] but for continuing to share this podcast.
[01:10:14.960 -> 01:10:19.520] And I know there are so many people struggling right now with addiction.
[01:10:19.520 -> 01:10:23.960] If you think that this may well help them, please reach out, send them a clip, send them
[01:10:23.960 -> 01:10:26.360] the episode, somehow get them to interact with it, because it might just be the thing that changes the game help them. Please, reach out, send them a clip, send them the episode, somehow get them to interact
[01:10:26.360 -> 01:10:29.600] with it, because it might just be the thing that changes the game for them.
[01:10:29.600 -> 01:10:33.240] Remember, there is no secret, it is all there for you.
[01:10:33.240 -> 01:10:38.480] So chase world-class basics, don't get high on your own supply, remain humble, curious
[01:10:38.480 -> 01:10:39.480] and empathetic.
[01:10:39.480 -> None] And we'll see you very soon. you