Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Sun, 11 Jun 2023 23:03:22 GMT
Duration:
56:56
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
In this interview, we welcome Edwin Van De Sar. The man who went from player to CEO, who won four Eredivisie titles, four Premier League Crowns and the Champions League, among many other accolades in his career.
We recorded this in a hotel room overlooking the Johan Cruyff Arena in Amsterdam, the home of Ajax Football Club. Edwin, at the time of recording, was the Chief Executive of the football club. He walked into the room and I said to him, “how are things?” The reply was a one word swear word. Immediately it was clear to us that pressure was taking its toll on this guy. We then spoke at length about the truth of what life's like at the top of a football club.
We talk about the scrutiny, we talk about the criticism, the questions, the pain and the impact on his family. Of course, we also talk about his playing days. What he learned at Manchester United, what it was like in that great Ajax team. Some of the challenges he faced as a Holland International and the great players he's played with.
A couple of days after the conversation, it was announced that Edwin had decided to quit as the CEO Ajax. So this now lives as the final interview that he gave as the CEO.
I think that we will now listen to it with fresh ears, with an even deeper understanding of the challenges that he was under.
Enjoy!
Love, Jake
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# Summary of the Podcast Episode Transcript
**Edwin van der Sar Interview:**
- Edwin van der Sar, former Manchester United and Ajax goalkeeper, sat down for an interview with the High Performance Podcast.
- The interview took place in a hotel room overlooking the Johan Cruyff Arena in Amsterdam, home of Ajax Football Club.
- Edwin had just stepped down as Chief Executive of Ajax, making this interview his final one in that role.
**Key Themes:**
1. **Pressure and Scrutiny:**
- Edwin emphasized the intense pressure and scrutiny that comes with being at the helm of a football club.
- He revealed that upon entering the room for the interview, he uttered a one-word swear, indicating the toll the pressure had taken on him.
2. **Balancing Success and Failure:**
- Edwin discussed the challenge of maintaining success, especially after a period of dominance.
- He acknowledged that failure is a natural part of striving for greatness and that learning from setbacks is crucial.
3. **Maintaining Ajax's DNA:**
- Edwin spoke about the importance of preserving Ajax's DNA, which includes a commitment to developing young talent and playing attractive football.
- He highlighted the club's history of producing world-class players and the importance of maintaining that tradition.
4. **Dealing with Player and Manager Departures:**
- Edwin addressed the challenges of losing key players and managers, emphasizing the need for a long-term plan and the ability to adapt to change.
- He shared his experience of working with managers like Louis van Gaal and Sir Alex Ferguson and the lessons he learned from them.
5. **Uncertainty and Decision-Making:**
- Edwin discussed the inherent uncertainty in football and the difficulty of predicting whether a manager or signing will be successful.
- He stressed the need for careful decision-making, taking into account various factors such as player talent, team chemistry, and managerial style.
6. **Finding Time for Reflection:**
- Edwin emphasized the importance of finding time for reflection and making informed decisions, especially during challenging times.
- He highlighted the need to strike a balance between making quick decisions and taking the time to consider the long-term implications.
7. **Learning from Mistakes:**
- Edwin acknowledged that mistakes are inevitable in football and that learning from them is essential for growth.
- He shared his experience of making mistakes as a player and as a director, and the lessons he learned from those experiences.
8. **Managing Criticism and Doubt:**
- Edwin discussed the challenges of dealing with criticism and doubt, particularly when it comes from outside the organization.
- He emphasized the importance of staying focused on the task at hand and not letting external noise influence decision-making.
9. **The Importance of Performance:**
- Edwin stressed that in football, performance is the ultimate measure of success or failure.
- He emphasized that everyone involved in the game, from players to coaches to executives, is ultimately judged on their ability to deliver results.
10. **The Toll of a Challenging Season:**
- Edwin admitted that the challenging season Ajax had endured had taken a toll on him personally.
- He acknowledged the difficulty of making tough decisions, such as parting ways with a manager, and the emotional impact it can have.
# Summary of the Podcast Episode Transcript
**Edwin Van De Sar's Journey from Player to CEO**
- Edwin Van De Sar, former player and CEO of Ajax Football Club, shares his experiences and insights in a candid interview.
- The interview begins with a reflection on the immense pressure and scrutiny faced by those at the helm of a football club.
- Edwin emphasizes the impact of media criticism, social media commentary, and the constant need to perform and deliver results.
- He highlights the toll it takes on not only the individual but also their family and loved ones.
- Edwin discusses the challenges he faced as CEO of Ajax, including dealing with difficult decisions, managing player transfers, and navigating the complexities of the football industry.
- He reflects on the importance of maintaining a strong connection with the club's staff, players, and supporters.
- Edwin shares his experiences as a player, including his time at Manchester United, Juventus, and Fulham.
- He emphasizes the importance of adapting communication styles to different audiences and recalls how Louis van Gaal used psychometric testing to understand players' preferences.
- Edwin discusses the challenges of managing cliques and divisions within a football team, drawing on his experiences with the Dutch squad in 1996.
- He stresses the importance of the coach's role in fostering unity and ensuring that individual performances contribute to the overall success of the team.
- Edwin reflects on his decision to join Manchester United late in his career and the significant impact it had on his life and career.
- He credits Alex Ferguson for creating a winning culture and demanding the highest standards from his players.
- Edwin highlights the quality of players, the manager's leadership, and the club's history as key factors in Manchester United's success during his time there.
- He shares his memories of playing alongside Cristiano Ronaldo and his relentless pursuit of becoming the best player in the world.
- Edwin emphasizes the importance of hard work and internal motivation for young players, drawing comparisons between natural talent and the need for dedication and improvement.
- He reflects on his own upbringing and the importance of treating people with respect and maintaining a normal life outside of football.
- Edwin discusses the demanding nature of his role as CEO, the constant pressure, and the need to balance work and personal life.
- He acknowledges the desire to prove people wrong and show that former players can succeed in different fields.
- Edwin concludes the interview by emphasizing the importance of finding a balance and eventually stepping away from the demanding world of football to prioritize family and personal well-being.
In this interview, Edwin Van Der Sar, the renowned football player turned CEO, shares his experiences and insights on leadership, resilience, and the challenges of working in the high-stakes world of football.
Van Der Sar, who enjoyed a successful playing career with Ajax, Manchester United, and the Dutch national team, transitioned to a leadership role as CEO of Ajax Football Club. However, his tenure was marked by intense scrutiny, criticism, and pressure, which took a toll on his well-being and ultimately led to his resignation.
The interview delves into the unique challenges faced by individuals in leadership positions within football clubs. Van Der Sar candidly discusses the constant scrutiny, the relentless barrage of questions and criticism, and the impact it has on personal and family life. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining a sense of perspective and not taking things personally.
Despite the difficulties, Van Der Sar also reflects on the positive aspects of his time at Ajax. He speaks about the satisfaction of working with a talented team and the joy of seeing the club achieve success. He highlights the importance of legacy and the desire to leave a lasting impact on the club and its supporters.
The interview also touches on Van Der Sar's playing career, with anecdotes from his time at Manchester United and the Dutch national team. He shares his admiration for Sir Alex Ferguson's leadership style and the influence of great players like Cristiano Ronaldo.
Overall, the interview provides a rare glimpse into the life of a football club CEO, shedding light on the immense pressure and scrutiny that comes with the job. Van Der Sar's honesty and willingness to share his experiences offer valuable lessons for anyone interested in leadership and resilience in high-performance environments.
[00:00.000 -> 00:07.180] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and this is the award-winning high performance podcast. Look,
[00:07.180 -> 00:11.660] we are not here to tell you how to think or act. We simply reveal the truth behind the
[00:11.660 -> 00:16.660] lives of some of the most fascinating people on the planet so they can be your guide. Prepare
[00:16.660 -> 00:21.700] to be inspired, but also challenged. Don't expect to agree with everything you hear,
[00:21.700 -> 00:29.160] but do hold your beliefs lightly. Come to this conversation, open to growth and change.
[00:29.160 -> 00:31.620] And let's just explore together.
[00:31.620 -> 00:35.240] Once more, it's time for myself and Professor Damien Hughes
[00:35.240 -> 00:38.220] to unlock the minds of another guest.
[00:38.220 -> 00:41.860] Today, this awaits you.
[00:41.860 -> 00:44.140] Football or sports, also a game of luck, of course.
[00:44.140 -> 00:45.560] Inside post, outside post, on the
[00:45.560 -> 00:50.320] bar, penalty given or yes or no, red card, yes or no.
[00:50.320 -> 00:56.560] These little things can be the fate of a manager, the fate of a player, or the fate of a director,
[00:56.560 -> 01:00.760] if there's success or is there failure.
[01:00.760 -> 01:05.880] And at the other end of the spectrum is Cristiano Ronaldo, who like you has gone on to have
[01:05.880 -> 01:10.200] a career of true longevity. What are your memories of sharing a dressing room and a
[01:10.200 -> 01:11.200] club with him?
[01:11.200 -> 01:16.440] The dressing room that he shared with me, of course it's always been about him and
[01:16.440 -> 01:22.800] his determination and the way that he conducted himself. I think a lot of people have, let's
[01:22.800 -> 01:25.720] say, maybe got a different opinion about him, but I found him really in the dressing room Ik denk dat veel mensen een andere mening hebben over hem.
[01:25.720 -> 01:28.840] Maar ik vond hem in de dressingruimte echt grappig.
[01:28.840 -> 01:33.880] De manier waarop hij nog een stap van Man United nam, was geweldig.
[01:35.240 -> 01:39.400] Het is kut, dingen gebeuren, je moet iemand opvallen, dingen gaan niet goed.
[01:39.400 -> 01:43.640] Er is een crisis, er gebeurt iets op Europese niveau,
[01:43.640 -> 01:46.320] er is iets met een nieuwe media-deal. There's a crisis, there's something happening on a European level, it's something with a new media deal.
[01:46.920 -> 01:51.600] At a certain point, it's not a drag, it's fucking hard.
[01:52.440 -> 01:55.480] Oh, what a pleasure it was to speak to this person.
[01:55.480 -> 01:58.280] Just before we talk a bit further, a quick reminder,
[01:58.280 -> 01:59.840] I would love you to hit subscribe.
[02:00.280 -> 02:02.480] Hitting subscribe allows us to grow the podcast,
[02:02.480 -> 02:08.560] which allows us to impact as many people as possible. But let's talk about today's guest then. You heard
[02:08.560 -> 02:12.720] there from Edwin van der Sar. Look, we have many football managers on the
[02:12.720 -> 02:16.360] podcast. The Newcastle boss Eddie Howe, the England boss Gareth Southgate, we've
[02:16.360 -> 02:20.280] had players like Jordan Henderson at Liverpool, Eric Dier, we've had former
[02:20.280 -> 02:24.440] players like Rio Ferdinand or Robin van Persie, we've had the Brighton chief
[02:24.440 -> 02:25.980] exec Paul Barber, we've had the Brighton chief exec, Paul Barber.
[02:25.980 -> 02:29.480] We've had the Brentford sporting director, Phil Giles.
[02:29.480 -> 02:32.660] But today we speak to a man who went from the dressing room
[02:32.660 -> 02:35.240] to the boardroom, a man who went from being a player
[02:35.240 -> 02:36.620] to a CEO.
[02:36.620 -> 02:39.140] Today we welcome Edwin van der Sar,
[02:39.140 -> 02:41.380] who won four Eredivisie titles.
[02:41.380 -> 02:43.060] He won four Premier League crowns.
[02:43.060 -> 02:44.260] He won the Champions League,
[02:44.260 -> 02:49.920] among many other things in his career. But what fascinated us is why he decided at the end of his playing days
[02:50.640 -> 02:54.400] to go into the administration side of the game and what he's learned since then. And I'm just
[02:54.400 -> 02:59.520] going to set the scene for you. So we recorded this in a hotel room overlooking the Johan Cruyff
[02:59.520 -> 03:09.320] Arena in Amsterdam, the home of Ajax Football Club. Edwin at the time was the chief exec of the football club. He walked into the room and I promise you he looked
[03:09.320 -> 03:15.440] exhausted. I said to him, how are things? And the reply was a one-word swear word.
[03:15.440 -> 03:20.280] So immediately it was clear to us that pressure was taking its toll on this guy.
[03:20.280 -> 03:25.280] And we then spoke at length for well over an hour about the truth of what life's
[03:25.280 -> 03:30.320] like at the top of a football club. We talk about the scrutiny, we talk about the criticism,
[03:30.320 -> 03:33.600] we talk about the questions, we talk about the pain, we talk about the impact on his
[03:33.600 -> 03:37.320] family. Of course, we also talk about his playing days, you know, what he learned at
[03:37.320 -> 03:41.720] Manchester United, what it was like in that great Ajax team, some of the challenges he
[03:41.720 -> 03:50.680] faced as a Holland international, the great players he's played with. But at the end of the conversation, one of the final answers he gave us was probably
[03:50.680 -> 03:53.820] a really clear indication of what was to come.
[03:53.820 -> 03:58.800] Because a couple of days after we pressed stop on the recording and headed home, it
[03:58.800 -> 04:06.720] was announced that Edwin had decided to quit as the CEO of Ajax. So this now lives as the final interview that
[04:06.720 -> 04:13.200] he gave as the CEO. And I think that we will now listen to it with fresh eyes, with an
[04:13.200 -> 04:17.120] even deeper understanding of the challenges that he was under. I just want at this point
[04:17.120 -> 04:22.960] to say huge thanks to him and to Ajax because it was obviously a challenging time for the
[04:22.960 -> 04:28.520] football club and for Edwin himself. So for him to still come out and speak to us and give us so much of his time, we are
[04:28.520 -> 04:33.160] very, very grateful for that. So here we go then. The final interview with Edwin van der
[04:33.160 -> 04:46.000] Saar as the CEO of Ajax Football Club here on the High Performance Podcast. We've locked in low prices to help you save big store wide. Look for the Locked In Low Prices tags and enjoy a free
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[06:57.800 -> 07:01.560] Well Edwin, thank you very much for joining us on High Performance. You're
[07:01.560 -> 07:05.280] welcome. What is your definition of high performance?
[07:05.280 -> 07:07.080] I think for the biggest part of my life,
[07:07.080 -> 07:11.000] I've been in a high performance environment.
[07:11.000 -> 07:13.000] First, try to make it as a player.
[07:13.920 -> 07:15.360] Then you take your first steps on the pitch
[07:15.360 -> 07:17.840] with a full stadium.
[07:17.840 -> 07:19.200] Then at 40, you retire.
[07:19.200 -> 07:21.520] And then whatever, you step into a new environment,
[07:21.520 -> 07:25.520] trying to, whatever, be a director or become a director
[07:25.520 -> 07:26.640] and dealing with pressure all the time.
[07:26.640 -> 07:29.640] So, I'm used to it.
[07:29.640 -> 07:31.520] It's part of your body.
[07:31.520 -> 07:34.800] It's part of your everyday business.
[07:34.800 -> 07:36.320] You don't know anything else.
[07:36.320 -> 07:38.160] So you talk about dealing with pressure.
[07:38.160 -> 07:40.120] Let's just set the scene for people listening to this.
[07:40.120 -> 07:43.520] We're talking just a hundred meters or so away
[07:43.520 -> 07:46.560] from the famous Johan Cruyff Stadium
[07:46.560 -> 07:49.360] here in Holland and it has been a hard season.
[07:49.360 -> 07:51.040] There's no doubt about that.
[07:51.600 -> 07:57.600] How much have you learned this season about yourself and about the world in which you operate?
[07:57.600 -> 08:01.920] Yeah, of course, at the moment you have success and things are going well, it's easy.
[08:01.920 -> 08:03.120] Everybody can do it.
[08:03.120 -> 08:05.680] At the moment it's hard, the criticism, decisions you've made, maybe not the right ones, En natuurlijk vrienden van jezelf, je ouders. Ben je er nog steeds oké met het? Wat gebeurt er?
[08:05.680 -> 08:07.680] Dus ja, je behandelt het.
[08:07.680 -> 08:08.680] En dat is iets dat je ook moet doen.
[08:08.680 -> 08:09.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:09.680 -> 08:10.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:10.680 -> 08:11.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:11.680 -> 08:12.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:12.680 -> 08:13.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:13.680 -> 08:14.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:14.680 -> 08:15.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:15.680 -> 08:16.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:16.680 -> 08:17.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:17.680 -> 08:18.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:18.680 -> 08:19.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:19.680 -> 08:20.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:20.680 -> 08:21.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:21.680 -> 08:22.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:22.680 -> 08:23.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:23.680 -> 08:24.680] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen.
[08:24.680 -> 08:27.280] En dat is ook een van de grote dingen. En dat is ook een van de grote dingen. En dat is ook een van de grote dingen. En dat is ook een van de grote dingen. En dat is ook een van jezelf, je ouders. Ben je er nog steeds oké mee? Wat gebeurt er?
[08:27.280 -> 08:31.440] Dus ja, je behandelt het en dat is iets wat je als speler leert.
[08:31.440 -> 08:34.800] Je bent heel erg op de bal, je bent heel zichtbaar.
[08:34.800 -> 08:37.520] 11 jongens spelen tegen 11 andere jongens.
[08:37.520 -> 08:41.360] Je schiet een vrije schot of een schuldigheid of je slaat er een.
[08:41.360 -> 08:43.520] En daarom verliezen ze.
[08:43.520 -> 08:45.480] Dus het is een leerlijke curve geweest, en vooral toen je zoveel succes had. or you drop one and because of that you lose. So it's been a learning curve,
[08:45.480 -> 08:47.720] and especially when you had so much success
[08:47.720 -> 08:50.640] and then in a year that's not happening, okay?
[08:50.640 -> 08:53.400] What went wrong in the summer?
[08:53.400 -> 08:54.680] What are the consequences?
[08:54.680 -> 08:57.040] What should you take out of it?
[08:57.040 -> 09:00.040] And that's something that's not written in books.
[09:00.040 -> 09:03.160] That's not even talked about in podcasts
[09:03.160 -> 09:05.800] or management lessons. That's something you need to experience and that's not even talked about in podcasts or management lessons.
[09:05.800 -> 09:09.120] That's something you need to experience, and that's life also.
[09:09.120 -> 09:13.760] So can we talk then about the things that went on and the things you learned from it?
[09:13.760 -> 09:18.520] Because there are lots of media outlets and probably lots of podcasts as well
[09:18.520 -> 09:20.480] that just talk about the failure, right?
[09:20.480 -> 09:23.080] We have a very different mindset to that.
[09:23.080 -> 09:26.200] What we believe is that failure is the price of ambition.
[09:26.200 -> 09:28.000] If you're going to try and do great things,
[09:28.000 -> 09:30.000] there are going to be seasons like this.
[09:30.600 -> 09:32.600] So let's rewind the clock.
[09:32.600 -> 09:35.600] You talk about mistakes last summer, for example,
[09:35.600 -> 09:39.200] or obviously the departure of Eric and then the new manager who came in.
[09:40.000 -> 09:44.000] Would you go through some of those moments and share with us what you've learned?
[09:44.600 -> 09:50.080] I think what I exist, I exist, Ajax is I think a very famous club, great tradition, DNA,
[09:50.960 -> 09:56.960] iconic jersey, fantastic names that have played here over the years, a stepping stone for a lot
[09:56.960 -> 10:01.280] of players. The league where we are playing in Holland, not the biggest league in the world,
[10:01.280 -> 10:04.720] of course, the top five leagues is where eventually everybody wants to end up.
[10:01.480 -> 10:02.680] Not the biggest league in the world. Of course, at the top five leagues
[10:02.680 -> 10:05.360] is where eventually everybody wants to end up.
[10:05.360 -> 10:08.000] Every year you need to refresh your team.
[10:08.000 -> 10:12.000] Coaches are stepping up, players want the next step.
[10:12.000 -> 10:16.720] And I think last year we had about 13 players leaving
[10:16.720 -> 10:20.680] and seven of them were like more or less starting 11,
[10:20.680 -> 10:22.040] including the coach.
[10:22.040 -> 10:24.080] Five months before that, the technical director.
[10:24.080 -> 10:27.760] Even for a club like Ajax that is used to making sure that there's
[10:27.760 -> 10:31.200] sort of like a conveyor belt of new talent coming through,
[10:31.200 -> 10:32.920] the scouting is functioning.
[10:32.920 -> 10:36.360] That was just too much to get a hold of in the summer
[10:36.360 -> 10:40.640] and to anticipate and make sure that the success that we had
[10:40.640 -> 10:44.800] over the last four or five years, that it was going in the same direction.
[10:44.800 -> 10:50.160] So you talk about the DNA of a successful team like Ajax Amsterdam.
[10:50.160 -> 10:52.160] What is that? How would you define it?
[10:52.160 -> 10:55.560] And then more importantly, how do you maintain it?
[10:55.560 -> 11:00.360] To maintain it, it's something where the managers of the coaches,
[11:00.360 -> 11:04.560] the work in the academy, the scouts who are finding the players,
[11:04.560 -> 11:06.600] are having to deal with. De coaches die in de academie werken, de scouts die de spelers vinden en moeten bedelen met.
[11:06.600 -> 11:13.440] En ik denk dat we over de jaren 70, met de generatie van Johan Cruijff, Piet Keijzer,
[11:13.440 -> 11:17.840] de winnaars van de drie Champions League, in de jaren 80 met Van Basten, met Rijkaard,
[11:17.840 -> 11:22.400] in de jaren 90 met Sedor, met David, met de Boers.
[11:22.400 -> 11:23.400] Met jezelf.
[11:23.400 -> 11:25.840] Ik was ook een deel van dat. with Sador, with David, with the Boers. With yourself. I was part of that also.
[11:25.840 -> 11:28.600] Wesley Sneijder, Nigel de Jong.
[11:28.600 -> 11:31.800] So every era there are players coming through.
[11:31.800 -> 11:37.120] That's something that stands us out, I think, from a lot of clubs.
[11:37.120 -> 11:41.880] We like to be that club that there's a DNA.
[11:41.880 -> 11:45.680] Also that the players who are given the chance here also hopefully come back at a
[11:45.680 -> 11:49.280] certain point and give something back to the club.
[11:49.280 -> 11:53.260] Not only regarding transfer fee, going from one club to another one, because if you want
[11:53.260 -> 11:56.320] to perform on the European stage, money is a big difference.
[11:56.320 -> 12:02.320] Of course, not only spending a lot of money, that's not always the solution.
[12:02.320 -> 12:07.720] Look at whatever some clubs in England this year. You had already a nice level, you spent whatever, five, six hundred million.
[12:07.720 -> 12:10.960] It doesn't mean that you become champion or even qualify for Champions League.
[12:10.960 -> 12:14.320] So what you do with it, that's also very important.
[12:14.320 -> 12:20.080] And quick decisions or managerial decisions, yeah, those are testing times for yourself
[12:20.080 -> 12:26.760] as a CEO or as a director to make the right call, and making sure that the whole club believes
[12:26.760 -> 12:31.720] in that line that has been set up to get to the success
[12:31.720 -> 12:35.560] or to revive the success formula that you had before.
[12:35.560 -> 12:38.600] So let's talk then about some of these sort of specific moments
[12:38.600 -> 12:40.920] and how you can retain the culture
[12:40.920 -> 12:43.720] whilst allowing Ajax to do what it does,
[12:43.720 -> 12:46.280] which is build amazing talents. I understand
[12:46.280 -> 12:49.360] as a player, it's great. You know, you, you do well here, you know, you're going to get
[12:49.360 -> 12:54.760] an opportunity, right? But for you now in a senior leadership role, it's very hard when
[12:54.760 -> 12:58.840] you lose your manager. So would you talk us through the process of what happened with
[12:58.840 -> 13:04.280] Eric Ten Haag and, and how you deal with that? Do you just sort of accept when Man United
[13:04.280 -> 13:06.000] come calling, you have to allow people to go?
[13:06.000 -> 13:11.000] Do you try and fight to keep Erik when he showed an interest in Manchester United?
[13:11.000 -> 13:13.000] How does it work from your perspective?
[13:13.000 -> 13:16.000] I think it works similar to all, even with players.
[13:16.000 -> 13:19.000] Of course, every player wants to have a plan.
[13:19.000 -> 13:23.000] You talk about ambition, of course you need to win the league here, play Champions League football,
[13:23.000 -> 13:27.440] give yourself a podium, or we give you a podium, natuurlijk de Liga winnen, de Champions League voetbal spelen, jezelf een podium geven, je moet het gebruiken,
[13:27.440 -> 13:31.600] je moet alle talenten en kwaliteiten op dat podium zetten.
[13:31.600 -> 13:34.640] Na twee, drie, hopelijk vier jaar, neem je de volgende stap.
[13:34.640 -> 13:36.000] En hetzelfde met de manager.
[13:36.000 -> 13:41.600] Ik denk dat Erik, toen hij kwam, Marc Overmars al wist hem van de passclub Go Ahead Eagles.
[13:41.600 -> 13:43.760] Hij was in de tweede ploeg bij Bayern Munich.
[13:43.760 -> 13:46.320] Hij deed echt goed met Utrecht.
[13:46.320 -> 13:58.040] Hij kwam hier niet als een AXDNA-type manager, maar al met zijn talent, zijn werkgevoel
[13:58.040 -> 14:02.360] en zijn zin om elke keer de bar hoger te zetten.
[14:02.360 -> 14:05.680] Hij stelde zichzelf als een geweldige manager en natuurlijk met de spelers die rondom hem waren. every time to put the bar higher, establish myself as a great manager and of course with
[14:05.680 -> 14:08.280] the players that were around him.
[14:08.280 -> 14:14.200] You talk with the manager, you see what his plans are, or he looks at the players, what
[14:14.200 -> 14:18.320] can I get out of the players, what's the ambition of the club.
[14:18.320 -> 14:22.880] So in that way you make also a plan for the manager.
[14:22.880 -> 14:27.720] Of course when you perform and when you do something really well,
[14:27.720 -> 14:28.960] of course you attract interest.
[14:28.960 -> 14:30.680] And that's, we know that,
[14:30.680 -> 14:32.640] and we are proud of it,
[14:32.640 -> 14:34.160] that people are taking a next step
[14:34.160 -> 14:36.000] to a bigger club, bigger league.
[14:36.000 -> 14:39.040] And hopefully we can use that also in our advantage
[14:39.040 -> 14:40.960] to attract other talents that say,
[14:40.960 -> 14:43.560] hey, through Ajax, you can get there and there and there
[14:43.560 -> 14:48.560] instead of straight away at 18 or straight out of your first job as a manager in the Premier League.
[14:49.040 -> 14:54.160] You're somebody that's had the unique perspective of being in the dressing room with great coaches,
[14:54.160 -> 15:00.600] whether it was from Van Gaal early on in your career to Sir Alex Ferguson at the end of your career.
[15:00.600 -> 15:08.920] So you've got the perspective of being able to see what makes a great coach, what works. And now you're in the position of being part
[15:08.920 -> 15:12.840] of the deciding committee, who's going to recruit a coach. So what are the
[15:12.840 -> 15:18.600] characteristics that you've seen from those different roles that you've held
[15:18.840 -> 15:23.280] that you think does distinguish whether a coach is going to be successful or not?
[15:23.760 -> 15:26.880] Difficult question because you don't know who's going to be successful.
[15:26.880 -> 15:28.440] It's a process.
[15:28.440 -> 15:34.240] You need so many things to click, to make sure that the project that you start,
[15:34.580 -> 15:38.600] the players that you sign, the players that come through from the academy,
[15:39.040 -> 15:43.940] that they're going to gel, that the way the manager wants the team to play,
[15:44.240 -> 15:46.200] that there's belief. And of course, in football or sports, also game of luck, of course, dat de manager de manier die het team wil spelen, dat er geloof in is.
[15:46.200 -> 15:49.600] En natuurlijk, voetbal of sport is ook een spel van geluk.
[15:49.600 -> 15:55.200] Binnenpost, buitenpost, op de bar, een penaliteit gegeven of ja of nee, red kaart, ja of nee.
[15:55.200 -> 15:59.600] Deze kleine dingen kunnen de dood van een manager zijn, de dood van een speler,
[15:59.600 -> 16:05.360] of de dood van een directeur, als het hun succes is of het hun verliezing is. or the fate of a director, if their success or is their failure.
[16:05.360 -> 16:10.800] And of course, if you're limited those chances, if you really work hard, if you can make sure
[16:10.800 -> 16:15.320] that belief in the group, how much talent, does talent get a chance?
[16:15.320 -> 16:20.400] Does younger players who are performing on the training better than older players?
[16:20.400 -> 16:25.240] Are they getting a chance or will a manager stick with experience with players
[16:25.240 -> 16:27.200] who did it in the past?
[16:27.200 -> 16:31.960] And that's what I, what you've seen also at Ferguson, for example, but working at bigger
[16:31.960 -> 16:34.760] clubs, it could be the end station.
[16:34.760 -> 16:42.240] Not a lot of players at United went to, let's say, bigger clubs, maybe only Ronaldo in 2009,
[16:42.240 -> 16:44.600] going from Man United to Real Madrid.
[16:44.600 -> 16:47.280] Asked also a question to Giggs or Scorsese or Gary.
[16:47.280 -> 16:49.840] He said, yeah, I never fancied going abroad.
[16:49.840 -> 16:51.640] It's like, whatever, there must be big clubs also,
[16:51.640 -> 16:56.320] Inter Milan or Barcelona or Madrid or Bayern Munich.
[16:56.320 -> 16:59.200] Yeah, Edwin, it's like, yeah, we were born here.
[16:59.200 -> 17:02.160] Like, it's, my whole family lives here.
[17:02.160 -> 17:04.600] I play for the biggest club in the world.
[17:04.600 -> 17:09.440] The money is good, so why would I go abroaditen gaan en een ander taallen of een ander spelersstijl
[17:09.440 -> 17:10.440] leren?
[17:10.440 -> 17:11.440] Omdat ik voor de grootste club ter wereld speel.
[17:11.440 -> 17:17.000] Dat is natuurlijk geweldig, als je dat hebt, die vijf, zes jongens die hun hele leven voor
[17:17.000 -> 17:18.000] een club hebben gespeeld.
[17:18.000 -> 17:21.520] De Churchillen, de Booyah Club en de Ajax zijn anders.
[17:21.520 -> 17:24.520] Natuurlijk kwamen ook spelers, zelfs Matthijs de Ligt, hier op 8, 9 jaar oud.
[17:24.520 -> 17:28.480] Hij ging naar de hele academie op 16,5 jaar, maakte zijns Licht came here at eight, nine years old and went to the whole academy at 16 and a half, made his debut, 17, he captained
[17:28.480 -> 17:34.240] the club in the Europa League final. But still for him, there are other ambitions.
[17:34.240 -> 17:38.800] Can the two of us just pick away then actually at this conversation about what it does for you
[17:38.800 -> 17:43.120] personally, because you spent your entire footballing career being in control, in control
[17:43.120 -> 17:46.560] of your training, in control of your reaction on the pitch,
[17:46.560 -> 17:47.720] to a certain extent.
[17:49.040 -> 17:52.040] Now, you talk about luck and chance
[17:52.040 -> 17:56.360] and a refereeing decision and not knowing really,
[17:56.360 -> 17:58.560] how can you know if a manager or a signing
[17:58.560 -> 18:00.440] is ever gonna be successful?
[18:00.440 -> 18:04.040] So how do you deal with the uncertainty
[18:04.040 -> 18:08.000] that comes with being the chief exec of one of the most talked about clubs in the world?
[18:08.000 -> 18:15.000] Yeah, in general, of course, it's part and somebody says, yeah, the harder you work, the more luck you're getting.
[18:15.000 -> 18:20.000] Of course, making long hours, life as a player, it's easy.
[18:20.000 -> 18:25.120] Of course, you need to perform on Saturday at two o'clock, but in general, yeah, you train in the morning.
[18:25.120 -> 18:30.880] Everybody is there to help you to make sure that you have the right nutrition, that you
[18:30.880 -> 18:33.600] train a certain level, that you get a massage.
[18:33.600 -> 18:38.840] But work as a director or a manager, it's so much more demanding.
[18:38.840 -> 18:40.520] It's 60, 70 hours.
[18:40.520 -> 18:48.400] It's all the time being on instead of being able to take a rest or focus or think.
[18:48.400 -> 18:54.000] So you have to really create time also for yourself to know what is going on, to know
[18:54.640 -> 18:58.800] if the decisions or the decision you want to make that is going to benefit the team
[18:58.800 -> 19:02.160] or the process that you stepped into.
[19:02.160 -> 19:05.800] Toby Burrus So let's talk in more detail about this.
[19:05.800 -> 19:07.840] First of all, you talk about you need time for yourself
[19:07.840 -> 19:09.440] to see the big picture.
[19:09.440 -> 19:12.760] You are the most senior leader at this football club.
[19:12.760 -> 19:15.240] We have lots of business people that listen to this podcast
[19:15.240 -> 19:16.560] who maybe struggle with that element.
[19:16.560 -> 19:20.360] How do you find the space, the headspace,
[19:20.360 -> 19:25.000] to be able to make decisions and have a bit of separation.
[19:25.000 -> 19:29.500] Yeah, you feel yourself now also that if you're running too fast,
[19:29.500 -> 19:35.500] you're losing time to reflect, to make the right decisions,
[19:35.500 -> 19:37.500] but decisions quick enough.
[19:37.500 -> 19:40.000] But the moment that things are going well,
[19:40.000 -> 19:44.000] it's much easier to breathe, to find the time,
[19:44.000 -> 19:47.360] and the moment things are going in a way that
[19:47.360 -> 19:50.600] you don't expect or you have to recover certain things.
[19:50.600 -> 19:53.560] When I started in 2012, I was a marketing director.
[19:53.560 -> 19:58.120] The idea was always for Johan Cruyff to bring ex-players into the board of directors.
[19:58.120 -> 20:03.880] He always said like, yeah, you guys, you didn't do university like the normal people or the
[20:03.880 -> 20:05.680] clever people do, but you guys
[20:05.680 -> 20:10.320] did the university of life, being exposed in the football stadium, being a young player,
[20:10.320 -> 20:15.440] making sure that you got a chance in the first team, dealing with losing finals, with making
[20:15.440 -> 20:22.040] mistakes or 80,000 people that cheering you on or newspaper headlines that are praising
[20:22.040 -> 20:23.500] you or killing you.
[20:23.500 -> 20:25.840] Even from the outside pressure, you can shut it off.
[20:25.840 -> 20:31.160] And that's one of my qualities, I think, making sure that the thing where I work on,
[20:31.160 -> 20:37.080] or where we work on as a club, that you don't let yourself be influenced by people who are
[20:37.080 -> 20:43.400] shouting, making headlines, or talking rubbish because they don't know what is the real deal,
[20:43.400 -> 20:46.480] what's going on into an organization. Steve McLaughlin I mean, that's typically
[20:46.480 -> 20:52.800] farsighted of Cruyff, from what you read about him. And it's a conversation that many people
[20:52.800 -> 20:57.200] have about going from the dressing room to the boardroom. What would you say are the
[20:57.200 -> 21:05.760] characteristics that are consistent that you learn in that university of life as Cruyff described it, that you're still using today?
[21:05.760 -> 21:12.560] The way that when a manager comes in or even during the game in the first half,
[21:12.560 -> 21:17.920] whatever quick, with quick words or quick shouts, you can adjust something. As a CEO,
[21:17.920 -> 21:30.760] it takes much longer to have an effect on how the organization is running. What I learned also from, let's say from Alex Ferguson, he said, yeah, I've been always
[21:30.760 -> 21:38.240] very loyal to the people that brought me success, but at a certain point, I have to make sure
[21:38.240 -> 21:40.080] that success continuously.
[21:40.080 -> 21:44.760] It's not always the case with, yeah, if you hold on to older players that gave you success,
[21:44.760 -> 21:49.160] but you have to make sure that there will continue to be successful players who
[21:49.160 -> 21:53.060] you know, we need to develop or maybe coming to end of the road on a respectful way.
[21:53.060 -> 21:57.960] But sometimes not even, sometimes it's not easy to be respectful in this world because
[21:57.960 -> 22:01.400] it's a hard world and I experienced that as a player.
[22:01.400 -> 22:08.300] You experience it as a executive and yeah, in that way, it's very comparable.
[22:08.300 -> 22:10.420] So Ferguson famously used to,
[22:10.420 -> 22:11.920] or he described it in his own terms,
[22:11.920 -> 22:15.100] that he would think in four-year cycles for his team.
[22:15.100 -> 22:17.140] And the stability of his role allowed him
[22:17.140 -> 22:20.500] to have that maybe longer perspective.
[22:20.500 -> 22:23.900] How far ahead do you think as a chief exec?
[22:23.900 -> 22:29.840] Of course, you make plans for whatever, four or five years, long-term plans, short-term.
[22:29.840 -> 22:35.840] A coach needs to win the next game or win the league.
[22:35.840 -> 22:42.400] But of course as directors you look a little bit further than only that.
[22:42.400 -> 22:49.120] But it all falls with winning on Sunday, winning the league, winning games, giving supporters
[22:49.120 -> 22:51.360] a feeling of pride.
[22:51.360 -> 22:55.100] And of course you can say, yeah, we have plans for two, three, four years, but for a supporter
[22:55.100 -> 23:00.160] it's the game on Sunday, it's winning a cup, winning a trophy.
[23:00.160 -> 23:04.020] Everything needs to be focused on winning on Sunday.
[23:04.020 -> 23:06.800] Of course you have a manager to do that, and the coaches need to do that, and the players
[23:06.800 -> 23:07.940] need to do that.
[23:07.940 -> 23:13.800] And sometimes you maybe forget a little bit when you have success, that success is all
[23:13.800 -> 23:15.440] created on the pitch.
[23:15.440 -> 23:22.040] It's all about those 11 guys or 16 or 20 guys delivering that performance on a match day.
[23:22.040 -> 23:25.720] This was one of the rare seasons where you weren't winning enough matches
[23:25.720 -> 23:29.080] and you had to park company with the manager.
[23:29.080 -> 23:35.000] Would you mind sharing with us how you get to a point where you make a decision
[23:35.000 -> 23:40.560] that you need to change the manager and just how you deal with that?
[23:40.560 -> 23:43.520] You know, we often, you've already said it, people in football often say,
[23:43.520 -> 23:46.560] oh, we get such criticism because people don't know the full picture.
[23:46.560 -> 23:52.360] I think sometimes it's so helpful to really lay bare, not everything, because some things
[23:52.360 -> 23:56.320] have to remain private quite rightly, but enough so people can understand that, you
[23:56.320 -> 24:01.200] know, sitting down and telling Schroeder you're fired is hard for you as well as for him,
[24:01.200 -> 24:02.200] isn't it, I imagine?
[24:02.200 -> 24:03.200] Yeah, of course.
[24:03.200 -> 24:06.000] And certain ways, it feels also not fair.
[24:06.000 -> 24:12.000] What I explained just earlier on about the 12 players that left,
[24:12.000 -> 24:14.000] the coach that left,
[24:14.000 -> 24:16.000] and even when Alfred came,
[24:16.000 -> 24:19.000] we still had, let's say, Martinez was still there,
[24:19.000 -> 24:21.000] Anthony was still there.
[24:21.000 -> 24:27.040] So United came at a little bit late stage for both players. Maybe not expecting,
[24:27.040 -> 24:31.360] maybe we should have prepared a little bit better, but even for Anthony, it was just a second year,
[24:31.360 -> 24:37.840] did not even play all the matches. So in that way, you're starting with a team that has been
[24:38.400 -> 24:49.160] refurbished, redesigned, new technical staff. But what are the warning signs that you can see something starting to go wrong?
[24:49.160 -> 24:53.760] Data is one part of the game nowadays, expected goals or that kind of stuff.
[24:53.760 -> 24:59.280] But in general, the eye is sometimes not wrong from the truth.
[24:59.280 -> 25:08.320] And in that way, you sometimes see or hope to expect more from a player or from a game or from a technical
[25:08.320 -> 25:12.480] decision or from the signing that the club made.
[25:12.480 -> 25:19.560] And in that way, yeah, the results at a certain point started to deteriorate and then the
[25:19.560 -> 25:29.440] pressure will mount on a coach and also on the board or on the players to whatever, to op een coach en ook op het bord of op de spelers om een beslissing te maken op een positie
[25:29.440 -> 25:34.560] die we net voldoende hebben en hoopten om een langstaande relaties te hebben.
[25:34.560 -> 25:35.560] Dat is waar je voor wordt gebouwd.
[25:35.560 -> 25:38.440] En ja, dat voelt ook vreemd.
[25:38.440 -> 25:45.000] Om mensen uit functies te laten komen die veel zin, harde werk, en effort en determinatie from functions that put a lot of heart and hard work
[25:45.760 -> 25:47.520] and effort and determination in
[25:47.520 -> 25:51.200] to have a conversation that is over.
[25:51.200 -> 25:56.200] How hard is it personally on a season like this?
[25:57.240 -> 25:58.960] Yeah, tough, absolutely.
[25:58.960 -> 25:59.960] Yeah, you're...
[26:01.560 -> 26:03.880] Yeah, it's really tough.
[26:03.880 -> 26:09.000] But hey, that's the name of the game.
[26:09.000 -> 26:13.880] It's performances that makes or break people.
[26:13.880 -> 26:19.840] That's for a player, that's for a coach, that's for a CEO, and that's the way we're living.
[26:19.840 -> 26:21.880] And I'm not used to anything else, to be fair.
[26:21.880 -> 26:28.200] What's the toughest thing? The toughest thing is the doubts that people have
[26:28.200 -> 26:29.800] in your ability.
[26:29.800 -> 26:32.760] Okay, yeah, former goalkeeper or former player.
[26:32.760 -> 26:35.280] But yeah, I've retired 12 years ago.
[26:35.280 -> 26:38.980] I'm doing this 11 years already, so I'm not a novice.
[26:40.160 -> 26:42.640] I think the organization is strong,
[26:43.720 -> 26:45.920] has been stronger in the past, but yeah, same as, like, you need to develop all the time. Hoeveel effort je erin kunt invoeren, hoeveel ervaring je erin wil invoeren.
[26:45.920 -> 26:52.160] En als de verbinding nog steeds er is met je staf, met de mensen in het bureau, met de
[26:52.160 -> 26:56.440] ploeg, met de mensen die je in de buurt hebt, dan is het een heel goed moment om te gaan.
[26:56.440 -> 26:58.640] En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt kennen.
[26:58.640 -> 27:00.520] En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten.
[27:00.520 -> 27:02.080] En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten.
[27:02.080 -> 27:03.080] En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten.
[27:03.080 -> 27:04.080] En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten.
[27:04.080 -> 27:10.320] En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten. En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten. En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten. En dan moet je ook de mensen in de buurt weten. En dan moet je ook nog wil inzetten. En als de verbinding nog steeds er is met je staf, met de mensen in het office, met de spelers.
[27:10.320 -> 27:16.000] En dat is, denk ik, een constante situatie die je ook voor jezelf wil voelen.
[27:16.000 -> 27:28.000] En natuurlijk denk ik dat de manier waarop media of mensen denken thinking or social media is reacting on defeats or bad signings or
[27:28.720 -> 27:34.080] good stuff or shirt introductions or commercial parties where you make an agreement with.
[27:35.040 -> 27:47.640] Everybody likes to think of everything something and sometimes people are talking loud on TV or putting anonymous stuff on the internet.
[27:47.640 -> 27:49.640] And that's most of the time for your,
[27:49.640 -> 27:51.000] let's say, surroundings.
[27:51.000 -> 27:54.000] It's not nice, but for yourself, you know what it is.
[27:54.000 -> 27:56.920] You know the football world and you know you need to perform
[27:56.920 -> 27:59.920] and you're as good as your last match that you played
[27:59.920 -> 28:01.400] and you're as good as your last signing
[28:01.400 -> 28:03.640] or the decision that you made as a director.
[28:03.640 -> 28:07.000] I think people often forget that you've got kids that can read that stuff,
[28:07.020 -> 28:09.980] you've got parents and like, no matter how old you become,
[28:10.000 -> 28:11.860] you're always your mum and dad's little boy.
[28:12.360 -> 28:15.360] Or your partner, you know, who's really defensive and protective of you.
[28:15.380 -> 28:18.900] I think people often forget the cost on those people in your life, don't they?
[28:18.920 -> 28:20.340] Yeah, okay, but we know that.
[28:20.360 -> 28:24.360] You sit behind a computer or a smartphone
[28:24.380 -> 28:27.440] and you pop up, put something in and it's gone for you. But it's out in the world. We weten dat, je zit achter je computer of smartphone en je zet iets in en het is weg
[28:27.440 -> 28:31.120] voor je, maar het is uit in de wereld.
[28:31.120 -> 28:35.840] Ik denk dat het meer over is als wat er 20 jaar gebeurt als je in de pub praat met je vrienden
[28:35.840 -> 28:43.840] en je hebt discussies en dat komt nu op internet of op sociale media of op shows zoals
[28:43.840 -> 28:45.000] dit. internet or on social media or on shows like whatever, not like this.
[28:45.000 -> 28:49.160] I think your quality of podcast is higher than other ones.
[28:49.160 -> 28:56.760] But yeah, you can drag attention for your opinions, crazy opinions or very direct ones
[28:56.760 -> 29:01.320] that attract audience, that attract viewers, that attract commercial parties, that connect
[29:01.320 -> 29:03.760] with a program.
[29:03.760 -> 29:06.600] That's what the world takes also at the moment.
[29:06.600 -> 29:09.160] You're talking about having like the ability
[29:09.160 -> 29:10.880] to adapt your communication style
[29:10.880 -> 29:12.240] to the different audiences.
[29:12.240 -> 29:14.400] And I was intrigued reading a story
[29:15.400 -> 29:17.280] from your early days as a player
[29:17.280 -> 29:19.600] when Van Haal was a coach.
[29:19.600 -> 29:23.800] And I read that he used a company to come in
[29:23.800 -> 29:26.780] and do psychometric testing with the players
[29:26.780 -> 29:31.000] so he could understand how players best received information
[29:31.000 -> 29:32.560] and how he could be more flexible
[29:32.560 -> 29:34.960] and adapt the way that he delivered his message
[29:34.960 -> 29:36.480] so it was understood.
[29:36.480 -> 29:39.760] You're smiling in terms of, do you remember that period?
[29:39.760 -> 29:41.960] And what have you taken from it
[29:41.960 -> 29:45.600] that you could still use and apply in your role today?
[29:45.600 -> 29:47.800] Yeah, I think you learn from everyone.
[29:47.800 -> 29:53.300] I think with Van Gaal, he gave me the opportunity, he discovered me.
[29:53.300 -> 29:54.800] He found me at my local club.
[29:54.800 -> 29:57.100] So he scouted myself.
[29:57.100 -> 30:03.500] So he signed me for Ajax, gave me the chance in the first team by replacing Stanley Menzo.
[30:03.500 -> 30:08.680] But he was, I'd zeggen, een van de soorten, zoals de manier waarop hij de oog voor detail,
[30:08.680 -> 30:14.120] de communicatie met spelers had, de manier waarop hij op de technische kant en technische
[30:14.120 -> 30:17.440] kant de spelers wilde verbeteren.
[30:17.440 -> 30:24.400] Dat is bijna tweede te geen eerlijk te zijn wat hij deed met onze groep spelers dat was
[30:24.400 -> 30:27.600] in de mid-90s, and also the next step
[30:27.600 -> 30:34.000] that he had at Barcelona and Bayern Munich and, let's say, Man United also.
[30:34.000 -> 30:39.840] So that's almost surprising. Of course, he had success in the leagues, the titles that
[30:39.840 -> 30:51.080] he won, but the previous club, I would have expected with his qualities and everything and to also have, to do that once again also in the Champions League.
[30:51.080 -> 30:57.520] And in that way what you learned, he always tried to find what's behind the player, because
[30:57.520 -> 31:00.600] not only the player, that makes a difference also, the human being.
[31:00.600 -> 31:07.640] What's behind the player, what's the situation at home? Is he happy with his wife? Is his
[31:07.640 -> 31:13.600] wife pregnant? Is he living too far away from Amsterdam? So it was all the things that could
[31:13.600 -> 31:20.080] matter that the performance of the player would harm, he would check that out and making
[31:20.080 -> 31:22.960] sure that he could help as good as possible on that part.
[31:22.960 -> 31:27.920] That's a really good, strong culture. Let's talk about maybe a challenging culture. When you were
[31:27.920 -> 31:34.240] with the Dutch squad in 1996 and there were question marks about cliques and groups and
[31:34.240 -> 31:40.000] separation. I'd love to know what you learned in that period. Because, as we've spoken about a lot
[31:40.000 -> 31:43.680] in the last little while, the tough times are often the educational times.
[31:44.240 -> 31:50.480] Yeah, I think we're coming to the tournament as winning the Champions League 95, losing the final
[31:50.480 -> 31:55.840] with I think a lot of Ajax players, some players already playing for big clubs. So I think we're,
[31:55.840 -> 32:00.560] could have been one of the favourites, I think, so the team was developing. I think the success,
[32:00.560 -> 32:05.200] of the lack of success or tensions, didn't really feel it.
[32:05.200 -> 32:09.680] And of course, I've been someone that's never been
[32:09.680 -> 32:10.960] attached to one group.
[32:10.960 -> 32:13.560] I always liked it to be floating around
[32:13.560 -> 32:16.840] because I was always the guy with the different jersey,
[32:16.840 -> 32:18.600] or I was always the guy with two other guys
[32:18.600 -> 32:20.680] who were doing different drills
[32:20.680 -> 32:24.320] than the 18 outfit players who were doing whatever,
[32:24.320 -> 32:25.920] passing drills or
[32:25.920 -> 32:28.720] five against fours or that kind of stuff.
[32:28.720 -> 32:34.120] So I always for myself, I never felt really only connected to one side or so.
[32:34.120 -> 32:37.320] I tried to even move between tables.
[32:37.320 -> 32:43.080] I never really felt that more afterwards things were explained or, but I think the media made
[32:43.080 -> 32:46.320] a lot of things of it, but it was more like our
[32:46.320 -> 32:49.120] own fault, the players, they mentioned things.
[32:49.120 -> 32:52.560] But in that way, you are a player, you're not that far ahead, you have to just think
[32:52.560 -> 32:58.320] about your own performance and of course winning a championship like the Euro 96 would have
[32:58.320 -> 32:59.320] been massive.
[32:59.320 -> 33:02.760] But afterwards, yeah, there was a holiday, you go on holiday and after two and a half
[33:02.760 -> 33:05.840] weeks you need to report to your club, you go on holiday, and after two and a half weeks, you need to report to your club, and you go on.
[33:05.840 -> 33:08.440] That's something that's been always my case.
[33:08.440 -> 33:12.240] I close it, and let's make the success of the next step.
[33:12.240 -> 33:14.320] I'm interested in that role that you said
[33:14.320 -> 33:15.720] of floating between groups,
[33:15.720 -> 33:18.920] because I've worked in dressing rooms myself
[33:18.920 -> 33:21.760] where you can see these cliques or divisions
[33:21.760 -> 33:24.240] starting to emerge, and when you speak to players, they go.
[33:24.240 -> 33:28.800] But it's not strange, because certain people like a type of music.
[33:28.800 -> 33:33.200] They like to dress in a certain way.
[33:33.200 -> 33:37.000] So it's not strange that people are gelling together better,
[33:37.000 -> 33:41.000] their love of cars, or younger guys who like to go out a little bit more,
[33:41.000 -> 33:44.700] you have some experienced guys who just, whatever, if you're married or...
[33:44.700 -> 33:49.640] So it's not strange that there are groups or tables together.
[33:49.640 -> 33:54.360] You talk easier, you have the same sense of humor, you have the same background, and of
[33:54.360 -> 34:00.480] course it's… with a national team it's different of course, then you all come together
[34:00.480 -> 34:02.640] and you share experiences.
[34:02.640 -> 34:09.440] But in the dressing room we have four Brazilians, two Mexicans, three Italians.
[34:09.440 -> 34:11.840] Yeah, it's logic and a couple of homegrown players
[34:11.840 -> 34:15.360] and a couple of signings that are teams together
[34:15.360 -> 34:18.160] or groups together, sitting at a table.
[34:18.160 -> 34:20.000] You like a certain kind of food,
[34:20.000 -> 34:21.560] you go to the same restaurants.
[34:21.560 -> 34:23.640] It's the work of the coach
[34:25.000 -> 34:27.480] to make sure that everybody sticks together. And when you're on the same restaurants. It's the work of the coach to make sure that everybody sticks together.
[34:27.480 -> 34:29.680] And when you're on the pitch,
[34:29.680 -> 34:31.840] the work rate is there, the intensity is there,
[34:31.840 -> 34:33.000] the quality is there,
[34:33.000 -> 34:34.960] and making sure that everybody's determined
[34:34.960 -> 34:36.720] to win that game on the Saturday.
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[37:53.640 -> 38:00.520] Let's talk about Manchester United then. This came relatively late in your career.
[38:00.520 -> 38:06.880] Relatively late? 30, 35? You were getting ready to retire on a beach probably.
[38:06.880 -> 38:10.640] Absolutely, almost, yeah. What was said to convince you to join that football club,
[38:10.640 -> 38:17.040] or was there no convincing needed? No, not a lot. No, I had a chance when I left Ajax in
[38:18.400 -> 38:24.320] 1999. I first had a meeting in Liverpool, they didn't sign for them. Then Juventus came,
[38:23.120 -> 38:27.280] I first had a meeting in Liverpool, they didn't sign for them. Then Juventus came, I went with my agent over to Turin.
[38:27.280 -> 38:32.400] We had a good meeting in one of the golf courses in one of the clubhouses.
[38:32.400 -> 38:37.800] And I think we were 85, 90% convinced to join Juventus.
[38:37.800 -> 38:42.800] I think then we got a call from Parma United, would you want to come over?
[38:42.800 -> 38:45.240] I said, yeah, I want to come over.
[38:45.240 -> 38:49.400] Even that time, I think it was still before the Champions League final, I wanted to take
[38:49.400 -> 38:50.400] a different approach.
[38:50.400 -> 38:52.720] So I signed for Juventus, to be fair.
[38:52.720 -> 38:56.560] And so that time there was an opportunity already to sign for United.
[38:56.560 -> 39:03.480] So, but yeah, after all, after two years Juventus, four years at Fulham and at 34, yeah, getting
[39:03.480 -> 39:05.480] the opportunity to play again
[39:05.480 -> 39:07.480] for one of the biggest clubs in the world.
[39:07.480 -> 39:09.840] Yeah, that was an amazing experience.
[39:09.840 -> 39:12.640] I think Ruud van Nistelrooy was a big part of it.
[39:12.640 -> 39:16.000] I think he spoke also with Ferguson at the end of that season.
[39:16.000 -> 39:19.080] What's going to happen?
[39:19.080 -> 39:21.000] What are the chances?
[39:21.000 -> 39:22.320] What players do we want to sign?
[39:22.320 -> 39:25.120] Yeah, maybe we have to get some experience at the back.
[39:25.120 -> 39:27.360] And we have two young centre-halves.
[39:27.360 -> 39:30.080] We need, well, why don't you think about Van der Sar?
[39:30.080 -> 39:31.840] Yeah, but he's 34 and he's at Fulham.
[39:31.840 -> 39:34.040] And yeah, okay, but like the level that he has
[39:34.040 -> 39:37.080] and the national team and he has a clause in his contract,
[39:37.080 -> 39:38.680] blah, blah, blah, blah.
[39:38.680 -> 39:40.760] So I think, yeah, before he knew it,
[39:40.760 -> 39:42.640] yeah, the voicemail message from Ferguson
[39:42.640 -> 39:46.420] at my, when I came back from training.
[39:46.420 -> 40:06.500] What was on the message? The message was, hello Edwins, Alex Ferguson, brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr en dan hebben we een vrouw die zei, ik begrijp het niet. Wat ik hier hoor, dus je wilt het message horen, druk op drie.
[40:06.500 -> 40:11.500] Dus ik hoorde drie of vier keer iets naar het message voordat het begon.
[40:11.500 -> 40:14.000] Oké, dit zou interessant kunnen zijn.
[40:14.000 -> 40:17.500] En ik denk dat we een afspraak hadden, een gesprek over de telefoon.
[40:17.500 -> 40:21.500] En tegenwoordig duurt het eeuwen om spelers te bestellen en te maken.
[40:21.500 -> 40:22.500] Om te maken met een aangevenis.
[40:22.500 -> 40:26.880] En ik denk dat mijn agent en David Gill then David Gill came over to Scheveningen
[40:26.880 -> 40:30.080] here in one of the cities near the beach.
[40:30.560 -> 40:34.920] I think with two, three hours were done and I signed a two-year contract.
[40:35.400 -> 40:39.640] So you played for Ajax, you played for Juventus, you played for Fulham,
[40:39.800 -> 40:41.920] and then you go to Manchester United.
[40:41.920 -> 40:48.160] When we spoke to Robin Van Persie about this, we asked him what was the difference between
[40:48.160 -> 40:51.840] his experience at say, Arsenal and Manchester United.
[40:51.840 -> 40:57.640] And he summed it up and said, at Arsenal people like to win, at Manchester United you had
[40:57.640 -> 40:59.200] to win.
[40:59.200 -> 41:10.000] What would you see was the difference between those other clubs and Manchester United? I think it's a little bit different for me because my initial period, I won a lot of things here at Ajax.
[41:10.000 -> 41:14.000] I think we're a very demanding manager, great culture at the club,
[41:14.000 -> 41:19.000] young players that wanted to improve, that wanted to get better, hungry.
[41:19.000 -> 41:23.000] Frank Rijkaard is one of the leaders, he won everything, was like an icon for us,
[41:23.000 -> 41:27.520] and he came back to help us achieve what we wanted to achieve.
[41:28.040 -> 41:30.600] Then two years Juventus, four years at Fulham.
[41:31.600 -> 41:33.600] Not a great stage of my career.
[41:33.600 -> 41:37.040] So the first day I came at United, I felt like a warm bath.
[41:37.280 -> 41:38.440] This is the level I wanted.
[41:38.440 -> 41:41.120] This is the pressure that I needed.
[41:41.120 -> 41:44.040] This is the way that football needs to be played.
[41:44.040 -> 41:50.000] This is how determined you are, how hard you work and the quality of the players around you.
[41:51.920 -> 41:54.960] Of course, the foundation were there already. So in that way,
[41:56.080 -> 41:59.120] yeah, from start to finish, it was an amazing six years.
[41:59.680 -> 42:05.480] And so many people try and find the answer to why that club and that team did so well in
[42:05.480 -> 42:10.040] that period. What do you put it down to?
[42:10.040 -> 42:16.080] Quality of players. Of course, a fantastic manager. But I think you know also that Ferguson
[42:16.080 -> 42:22.720] wasn't taking the sessions or something. I think he had a great field coach and assistant
[42:22.720 -> 42:30.520] coach. Even when the meetings were there, of course, he always started, came with two remarks about
[42:30.520 -> 42:34.760] the history, about the past, or if you remember this game.
[42:34.760 -> 42:40.360] That way, it's the whole aura of himself, the things that he won already, of course.
[42:40.360 -> 42:45.200] The way he developed the club, that he almost owned the club with two guys, with
[42:45.200 -> 42:48.480] David Gill and with himself.
[42:48.480 -> 42:56.200] The backbone of the team with players who are homegrown, Giggs, Neville, Scholes.
[42:56.200 -> 43:02.000] Scholes, Paul was of course a fantastic player, but he was not really into the conversations.
[43:02.000 -> 43:06.520] Paul just wanted to play football, just wanted to kick a ball as hard as possible into the goal.
[43:06.520 -> 43:07.520] He was good at that.
[43:07.520 -> 43:09.000] He was really good at that, for example,
[43:09.000 -> 43:11.760] but media duties after a Champions League match,
[43:11.760 -> 43:14.200] he went to the fire exit door or whatever.
[43:14.200 -> 43:16.600] And nowadays, yeah, you see him talking on...
[43:16.600 -> 43:18.480] Yeah, he's full of opinions.
[43:18.480 -> 43:20.040] As a pundit, full of opinions, everything.
[43:20.040 -> 43:22.080] So that's funny how people develop,
[43:22.080 -> 43:26.240] but just the sheer desire to win, the sheer desire
[43:26.240 -> 43:31.880] to protect the image that United have and win the Champions League again.
[43:31.880 -> 43:37.040] That was to be a part of that era that they had in the 60s, that they had in the 90s,
[43:37.040 -> 43:44.080] and to have that in 2008, 2009, that six years that I was able to play for United.
[43:44.080 -> 43:46.560] The success that you had with that group of players.
[43:46.560 -> 43:49.280] And also, of course, you need to refresh it.
[43:49.280 -> 43:51.760] And of course, even there, we had some bad signings
[43:51.760 -> 43:53.520] and signings that didn't work out,
[43:53.520 -> 43:55.280] but the quality was there.
[43:55.280 -> 43:59.760] And that was an amazing period of my career
[43:59.760 -> 44:02.080] to end at such a high note.
[44:02.080 -> 44:04.040] I mean, talk about the signings that didn't work out.
[44:04.040 -> 44:04.880] It's interesting.
[44:04.880 -> 44:08.240] Again, we were lucky enough to sit down with Rio Ferdinand
[44:08.240 -> 44:13.440] and he spoke about some of the signings that he felt, in hindsight,
[44:13.440 -> 44:16.440] the dressing room treated quite harshly,
[44:16.440 -> 44:19.440] rather than put an arm around the shoulder and try to help them.
[44:19.440 -> 44:24.440] So the example he cited was the Brazilian, Anderson,
[44:24.440 -> 44:27.640] where he said he felt that he struggled with his diet and his lifestyle.
[44:27.640 -> 44:33.480] And the dressing room mocked him rather than tried to guide him in a more helpful way.
[44:34.320 -> 44:38.280] What was your experience of that dressing room when you talk about the will to win?
[44:38.840 -> 44:41.640] Of course, quality, recognize quality.
[44:41.640 -> 44:51.920] When you're on the pitch, if you play a ball hard to a player and he receives it straight away on the right foot or if you pass it, having fun or joking
[44:51.920 -> 44:55.880] or yeah, that's also part of the culture in a football club and that's there.
[44:55.880 -> 45:00.680] But I can understand a little bit what he said, but I think at a certain point, two,
[45:00.680 -> 45:07.760] three times you say something to a player, and the third time or the fourth time it's still not reacting or showing different behavior,
[45:07.760 -> 45:09.960] yeah, then you almost need to drop it
[45:09.960 -> 45:12.440] because you have to think about your own performances,
[45:12.440 -> 45:15.080] making sure that whatever the area where you're responsible for,
[45:15.080 -> 45:17.240] that that is working.
[45:17.240 -> 45:18.880] Every young player, of course, you need to help,
[45:18.880 -> 45:20.680] you give them advice,
[45:20.680 -> 45:23.720] but you need to be open also to take the advice.
[45:23.720 -> 45:24.800] And if it's not happening, yeah,
[45:24.800 -> 45:26.000] then you have to take along
[45:26.000 -> 45:28.000] and find someone else who you can help
[45:28.000 -> 45:32.000] and hopefully bring into the team to get the performances up.
[45:32.000 -> 45:36.000] And at the other end of the spectrum is Cristiano Ronaldo,
[45:36.000 -> 45:39.000] who, like you, has gone on to have a career of true longevity.
[45:39.000 -> 45:43.000] What are your memories of sharing a dressing room and a club with him?
[45:43.000 -> 45:45.480] The dressing room that he shared with me, you mean.
[45:45.480 -> 45:49.520] Exactly, the dressing room that he was lucky enough, honoured, to share with you.
[45:49.520 -> 45:54.800] No, I think I remember one of the conversations with him in the gym, really the smaller,
[45:54.800 -> 45:55.800] the old gym and everything.
[45:55.800 -> 45:59.280] And he was working out, I think it was an elastic band for his ankle and everything
[45:59.280 -> 46:03.080] and started talking and, yeah, now I really want to become the best player in the world.
[46:03.080 -> 46:06.640] So yeah, Ronny said, a lot of people say that, no, no, no, I really want to become the best player in the world. So yeah, Ronny said that. A lot of people say that, no, no, no, we really want it.
[46:06.640 -> 46:09.280] That's like, okay, what are you going to do about it?
[46:09.280 -> 46:10.120] Everything.
[46:11.160 -> 46:15.240] I think his work ethic, the way he developed himself,
[46:15.240 -> 46:19.560] the way he made sure that his body was specialist around him,
[46:19.560 -> 46:20.760] the way he trained.
[46:20.760 -> 46:23.960] And one of the funny stories I find always,
[46:23.960 -> 46:28.120] I told a lot of people already, often after
[46:28.120 -> 46:30.600] training, I told him I want to take some of my free kicks.
[46:30.600 -> 46:36.080] I said, Ronnie, take the second or third goalkeeper, I'm 37th, come on, let's take one of the
[46:36.080 -> 46:37.080] other guys, I'm tired.
[46:37.080 -> 46:40.280] No, no, no, no, come on, I want to score against the best.
[46:40.280 -> 46:43.240] Yeah, but Ronnie, you're not going to score, so what's the point?
[46:43.240 -> 46:45.600] No, no, come on, you're getting goal."
[46:45.600 -> 46:48.920] And of course, then he had the free kick and the position and the stance and the ball that
[46:48.920 -> 46:49.920] floated.
[46:49.920 -> 46:52.240] But he always wanted to end it with a goal.
[46:52.240 -> 46:55.320] So it's not even whatever, that I save one, okay, it's finished.
[46:55.320 -> 46:57.160] But he always wanted to end it with a goal.
[46:57.160 -> 47:00.200] He said, but Ronnie, I want to also have a good feeling of going into the game.
[47:00.200 -> 47:02.840] It's not only about you.
[47:02.840 -> 47:09.520] And of course, it's always been about him and his determination and the way that he
[47:09.520 -> 47:10.520] conducted himself.
[47:10.520 -> 47:16.640] I think a lot of people have, let's say, maybe got a different opinion about him, but I found
[47:16.640 -> 47:19.960] him really in the dressing room funny.
[47:19.960 -> 47:26.080] If we brought our children, like the Scholes' kids or my son, he always played with them. I think the way
[47:26.080 -> 47:31.920] that he took another step for Man United, it was not easy after leaving Man United and then going
[47:31.920 -> 47:38.160] along for even higher accolades and everything, the way that he played at Madrid and the goals
[47:38.160 -> 47:42.640] that he scored and the impact that he had there, it's been amazing, yeah.
[47:42.640 -> 47:45.640] I think there's actually really strong lessons for the players that you
[47:45.640 -> 47:46.480] have here, though, isn't it?
[47:46.480 -> 47:49.400] Because there's that great phrase that talent will get you in the room.
[47:49.760 -> 47:52.960] Yeah, but nowadays it's a little bit more different.
[47:52.960 -> 47:58.120] It's difficult to get that internal motivation to improve yourself all the
[47:58.120 -> 47:59.400] time. And we have a few.
[47:59.440 -> 48:00.240] Why is that, though?
[48:00.240 -> 48:04.720] Because, I don't know, maybe it's the people that are depending on you, the
[48:04.720 -> 48:10.000] people that cherish you, that put you on a pedestal all the time.
[48:10.000 -> 48:12.000] Hard work is not a strange word.
[48:12.000 -> 48:14.000] It's something that's really important.
[48:14.000 -> 48:18.000] Getting somewhere is easy, but making sure you take next steps,
[48:18.000 -> 48:23.000] that you become better, that you become more and more valuable for the team,
[48:23.000 -> 48:26.120] that you become more decisive for the team, that you become more decisive for the team.
[48:26.120 -> 48:27.440] That's hard nowadays, I think.
[48:27.440 -> 48:28.320] It's a shame though, isn't it?
[48:28.320 -> 48:31.760] Because you've got players like a Paul Scholes or a Lionel Messi
[48:31.760 -> 48:35.280] where you look at the natural ability and feel for the game
[48:35.280 -> 48:36.720] has gone to a certain point.
[48:36.720 -> 48:39.000] But to say about hard work, but for example, Lionel Messi,
[48:39.000 -> 48:42.360] I think has tremendous qualities and talent and everything.
[48:42.360 -> 48:45.200] And yes, I'm not saying he doesn't work hard.
[48:45.200 -> 48:46.400] Let me just be straight about that.
[48:46.400 -> 48:48.400] I suppose what I'm saying is Cristiano,
[48:48.400 -> 48:51.000] unlike those two, has forced his success.
[48:51.000 -> 48:51.800] Do you know what I mean?
[48:51.800 -> 48:53.800] He's made it happen.
[48:53.800 -> 48:56.400] And I think there's a great lesson to young footballers there.
[48:56.400 -> 48:57.600] You can be here.
[48:57.600 -> 48:59.600] I mean, I remember Jurgen Klopp saying he was a
[48:59.600 -> 49:01.600] second division ability footballer,
[49:01.600 -> 49:03.800] a Bundesliga mindset footballer,
[49:03.800 -> 49:05.520] so ended up in the first division.
[49:10.400 -> 49:14.560] That's a really strong message for people that, what is the phrase, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. That's what Ferdinand Novers said, also something said in the dressing
[49:14.560 -> 49:18.560] room in Old Trafford, he said that lot in the other dressing room, if you guys work hard,
[49:18.560 -> 49:21.680] they're never going to beat you. But if they work harder, if they work their socks off a thing and
[49:21.680 -> 49:29.680] you think, okay, it's going to be Preston, it's going to be whatever, Bournemouth, they can win. So it all starts with working hard.
[49:29.680 -> 49:36.000] Work hard, then your extra qualities will shine. So internal motivation then is something that
[49:36.000 -> 49:48.000] you did have. Where did that come from? I think a normal upbringing. Ik kwam naar Ajax toen ik 19 jaar was. Ik was nooit in een van de regionale selecties.
[49:48.000 -> 49:51.000] Tot ik 18 jaar was, speelde ik in mijn lokale dorp met mijn vrienden.
[49:51.000 -> 49:55.000] Vrienden natuurlijk, het is een voetbalteam, maar niet op een hoog niveau.
[49:55.000 -> 49:59.000] Ik deed de nieuwspaal rond, ik werkte in de Vlauwebulb-gebied.
[49:59.000 -> 50:01.000] Dus ik deed veel dingen.
[50:01.000 -> 50:04.000] Tot ik 19 jaar was, toen ik op school was,
[50:04.000 -> 50:07.440] toen werd ik uiteindelijk a suddenly I got signed for Ajax.
[50:07.440 -> 50:14.160] So I think I had a normal upbringing. And also I find it important to the people that are around
[50:14.160 -> 50:19.840] you, that are working also for the club, that you treat them in a normal way.
[50:19.840 -> 50:23.040] And where do you get your motivation from now? Because
[50:24.080 -> 50:25.320] you can't do your job unless
[50:25.320 -> 50:27.520] you work really hard.
[50:27.520 -> 50:29.480] Yeah, that's true.
[50:29.480 -> 50:35.360] Give us an insight into the hours you work.
[50:35.360 -> 50:43.600] You don't want to, it's continuously, it's hard, it's whatever, you have your phone,
[50:43.600 -> 50:49.640] you have your laptop, you have the calls, you have your din whatever, you have your phone, you have your laptop, you have the calls, you have every… you have your dinners, you have your work, you have your time you
[50:49.640 -> 50:55.240] go to games, you wanna be… you wanna go to commercial partners, it's events, it's
[50:55.240 -> 51:00.240] shit, things are happening, you need to fire someone, things are not going well, there's
[51:00.240 -> 51:05.440] a crisis, there's something happening on a European level, it's something with a
[51:05.440 -> 51:07.520] new media deal.
[51:07.520 -> 51:08.520] It's constant.
[51:08.520 -> 51:15.400] So it's, at a certain point, it's not a drag, it's fucking hard.
[51:15.400 -> 51:19.600] And that's something that's where friends of yourself say, Jeez, Edwin, why do you need
[51:19.600 -> 51:20.600] it?
[51:20.600 -> 51:23.320] You have your money, you have an easier life.
[51:23.320 -> 51:26.520] And of course something goes through your mind, but in one way you have, money, you have an easier life. And of course something goes through your mind,
[51:26.520 -> 51:29.960] but in one way you have, you want to be success,
[51:29.960 -> 51:32.800] success sometimes also addictive.
[51:33.720 -> 51:35.600] You want to achieve things,
[51:35.600 -> 51:38.280] and that's something that you carry with you all your life.
[51:38.280 -> 51:40.640] And if you play different sports or with your friends,
[51:40.640 -> 51:42.520] you always want to win.
[51:42.520 -> 51:44.000] Do you know what, I also think,
[51:44.000 -> 51:45.960] and I may be totally wrong here, I think there's an
[51:45.960 -> 51:49.040] element here that you love proving people wrong.
[51:49.040 -> 51:53.640] And when you talk about one of the hardest parts is people that say, former goalkeeper,
[51:53.640 -> 51:56.440] former footballer, I think you get an energy from that.
[51:56.440 -> 52:00.080] I think you love to show people that you can be a former footballer, you can be a former
[52:00.080 -> 52:01.080] goalkeeper.
[52:01.080 -> 52:05.520] You can also be a CEO of a business turning over hundreds of millions of euros
[52:05.520 -> 52:06.520] a year.
[52:06.520 -> 52:07.520] We're not fixed.
[52:07.520 -> 52:08.520] We're not in a box.
[52:08.520 -> 52:09.520] I think it's true.
[52:09.520 -> 52:14.840] I think also because, let's say, I've not been the biggest talent.
[52:14.840 -> 52:17.480] I've played a good career, had a great career.
[52:17.480 -> 52:21.400] I think I was really good at looking through what was happening.
[52:21.400 -> 52:23.160] I don't think I had the greatest reaction.
[52:23.160 -> 52:26.640] I don't think I was the most elegant goalkeeper.
[52:26.640 -> 52:28.320] But in the way that I played,
[52:28.320 -> 52:31.680] the way I could see through the game,
[52:31.680 -> 52:34.640] making sure that the players were in the right position,
[52:34.640 -> 52:35.480] making the saves,
[52:35.480 -> 52:38.680] when it mattered that it brought you to a certain level,
[52:38.680 -> 52:42.040] that's something you want to emulate or show that again.
[52:42.040 -> 52:47.000] And of course, I don't think this job is something you're going to do all my life.
[52:47.000 -> 52:49.000] And at a certain pay, you want to have your rest,
[52:49.000 -> 52:51.000] you want to have your quality of life.
[52:51.000 -> 52:55.000] Also, the moment that the phone is not ringing anymore,
[52:55.000 -> 52:58.000] that the emails are not that important anymore,
[52:58.000 -> 53:03.000] I think that's also something that you need to give also back to your family
[53:03.000 -> 53:06.280] and for your own sake of mind,
[53:06.280 -> 53:10.280] to the point that you know what life is also about.
[53:10.280 -> 53:11.280] Mason.
[53:11.280 -> 53:12.280] Brilliant.
[53:12.280 -> 53:14.800] So we normally wrap up with a series of quickfire questions, Edwin.
[53:14.800 -> 53:19.920] So the first one is, what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you
[53:19.920 -> 53:20.920] have to answer?
[53:20.920 -> 53:21.920] Edwin.
[53:21.920 -> 53:23.840] Yeah, I still answer my phone if somebody calls me at 1130.
[53:23.840 -> 53:25.800] It doesn't matter. Yeah, I still answer my phone if somebody calls me at 11.30.
[53:26.800 -> 53:31.000] It doesn't matter. Appointments are in my diarrhea that I probably don't need.
[53:31.000 -> 53:33.000] So I'm quite relaxed, to be fair.
[53:33.000 -> 53:35.800] I should be hard in certain ways.
[53:35.800 -> 53:37.800] What is your biggest strength?
[53:37.800 -> 53:39.800] What is your greatest weakness?
[53:39.800 -> 53:44.000] My strength is I think I'm collective.
[53:44.000 -> 53:50.320] I'm not that quickly into a panic or I don't know what's happening.
[53:52.160 -> 53:57.880] It was my quality on the pitch and I think hopefully it's still also my quality here as a director.
[53:58.400 -> 54:01.600] Weakness? Probably too nice.
[54:02.200 -> 54:05.600] What advice would you give to a teenage Edwin, just starting out?
[54:05.600 -> 54:11.600] It's just fantastic to do something that's in the area where you're grown up, where you
[54:11.600 -> 54:12.600] became a man.
[54:12.600 -> 54:16.600] As a child, I was quite quiet.
[54:16.600 -> 54:23.040] I didn't want to be seen, I was quite tall and sometimes when tall people, they like
[54:23.040 -> 54:25.080] to make themselves a little bit smaller but
[54:27.080 -> 54:28.840] At a certain point you come out to in the limelight
[54:32.880 -> 54:33.200] And you're there so it's it's it's just great to you have to
[54:40.520 -> 54:41.120] To be something and to that a lot of people get enjoyment from can they have pleasure from it? And of course, I know you
[54:42.480 -> 54:45.280] You're not bigger than a club You're not not just helping, try to help the club as
[54:45.280 -> 54:49.960] far as possible to reach and to bring success to supporters.
[54:49.960 -> 54:53.960] I think football club, the supporters live and die for that club and you see that what
[54:53.960 -> 54:56.840] happened with the Super League, what happened two, three years ago.
[54:56.840 -> 55:00.800] And of course a club need to earn money because you need commercial partners, you need guys
[55:00.800 -> 55:03.280] who pay a lot of money for a business room.
[55:03.280 -> 55:06.000] But in general, the supporters are the backbone of the club.
[55:06.000 -> 55:09.000] How important is legacy to you?
[55:09.000 -> 55:11.000] It's not. I think I have it as a player.
[55:11.000 -> 55:14.000] You achieve something here, you achieve something in Manchester,
[55:14.000 -> 55:18.000] at Juventus, and I've never been back to Fulham for example,
[55:18.000 -> 55:20.000] so I would love to go to Fulham on a normal way,
[55:20.000 -> 55:23.000] just to go there, go to Caveham Cottage,
[55:23.000 -> 55:48.360] take the bus from Kingston or something over Putney Bridge. Those things, what my kids, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is het, dat is with all the work that's been done with many people that are not here at the moment anymore. But yeah, I found it more like a relay.
[55:48.360 -> 55:50.640] I have the baton in my hand.
[55:50.640 -> 55:53.200] And if you want to give it to someone else
[55:53.200 -> 55:57.200] that is better equipped financially on the supporter side
[55:57.200 -> 55:59.720] and give it to someone else, do something with it.
[55:59.720 -> 56:02.400] Because it's not my club, it's the club from the supporters.
[56:02.400 -> 56:06.400] I had a fantastic time as a player and as a director.
[56:06.400 -> 56:09.400] And I'm looking forward to whatever, next couple of years,
[56:09.400 -> 56:12.400] and let's see what it will become.
[56:12.400 -> 56:13.600] And the final question.
[56:13.600 -> 56:15.600] Thank you so much for giving us your time.
[56:15.600 -> 56:17.600] And it's so interesting to break down what's been a...
[56:17.600 -> 56:20.400] It's good to talk after quite a difficult season
[56:20.400 -> 56:23.000] because I think it gives such a unique perspective to football fans
[56:23.000 -> 56:26.800] who all have a very strong opinion about the game and about the job that people like
[56:26.800 -> 56:31.680] you do. So the final message really, not just for those football fans but for the
[56:31.680 -> 56:35.240] myriad of different people that have tuned into this conversation, what would
[56:35.240 -> 56:40.200] you like to leave ringing in their ears, your final message for living a
[56:40.200 -> 56:46.480] high-performance life? Don't forget to enjoy it because that's what I've never ever do.
[56:46.480 -> 56:51.360] But hard times are you take it on. Sometimes the enjoyment or the success,
[56:51.920 -> 56:56.880] they get as part of the job. It's normal. Get on with it. But don't forget to enjoy it.
[56:57.440 -> 56:58.560] Top man. Thank you so much.
[57:02.480 -> 57:03.600] Damien. Jake.
[57:10.000 -> 57:14.720] Damien. Jake. I think you could see clearly in that interview, and he was working hard not to let the mask slip, but actually the truth that this has been a really difficult season for IACs,
[57:14.720 -> 57:21.120] and we're talking to Edwin, you know, during the final weekend of the season, it came across
[57:21.120 -> 57:27.000] actually how hard it's been for him and actually how personally I think he takes it, which is understandable.
[57:27.000 -> 57:32.000] Yeah, I think it's a great example again of a lesson that we hear so often
[57:32.000 -> 57:36.000] that success is not a linear journey, that there's going to be setbacks,
[57:36.000 -> 57:39.000] there's going to be bumps in the road, there's going to be detours that we don't expect.
[57:39.000 -> 57:44.000] And I think to meet somebody when they're in the process of navigating the way through that
[57:44.000 -> 57:46.000] is actually really valuable.
[57:46.000 -> 57:50.000] It's a really hard one, football, isn't it? Because, you know, all Edwin is doing
[57:50.000 -> 57:54.000] is his absolute best, and as you heard from the answers he just gave us, he's doing his
[57:54.000 -> 57:58.000] absolute best for 12 or 15 hours a day, but sometimes you don't get
[57:58.000 -> 58:02.000] lucky, sometimes your signings or your recruitment doesn't work out.
[58:02.000 -> 58:06.960] So therefore fans are entitled to be frustrated, they're entitled to boo him when he talks to them at the end of a
[58:06.960 -> 58:11.240] season, they're entitled to share their opinion I guess on social media. But we
[58:11.240 -> 58:15.680] need to kind of inject into that conversation some modicum of
[58:15.680 -> 58:22.840] understanding, some modicum of nuance, some modicum of realizing that no one is
[58:22.840 -> 58:28.400] perfect, everyone is doing their best. I don't know how we get this balance right but it feels in football particularly, too
[58:28.400 -> 58:31.900] too far towards the toxicity and the anger and the aggression.
[58:31.900 -> 58:38.200] Well I like that phrase you just used Jake, around nuance, because I think too often in life, and we do
[58:38.200 -> 58:41.760] this whether it's in sport or not, we get caught in this binary trap of good or
[58:41.760 -> 58:47.960] bad, right or wrong, high performer or low performer, when the reality is there's always subtlety and nuance
[58:47.960 -> 58:51.600] and complexity that we don't necessarily always see.
[58:51.600 -> 58:55.400] And I think conversations like what Edwin's been brave enough
[58:55.400 -> 58:57.560] to share with us, starts to open us up
[58:57.560 -> 59:00.720] to the whole heap of different factors
[59:00.720 -> 59:02.200] that influence high performance.
[59:02.200 -> 59:04.640] Some of them are within our gift and some are not.
[59:04.640 -> 59:07.960] And I think when we can understand that, that boils it back down
[59:07.960 -> 59:11.240] to that question of, are they doing the best they can in the moment they're in
[59:11.240 -> 59:13.760] with the resources and the knowledge that they have.
[59:13.760 -> 59:15.760] And he's absolutely doing that.
[59:15.760 -> 59:17.260] 100%.
[59:17.260 -> 59:20.360] I loved as well the little reflections when you actually look back on his career,
[59:20.360 -> 59:24.320] whether it was getting that, you know, late shout from, I mean, his impression of
[59:24.320 -> 59:28.480] Sir Alex Ferguson having to replay the message three or four times to understand what he was saying was
[59:28.480 -> 59:32.560] brilliant. But, you know, that moment, and then, you know, sharing a dressing room with Cristiano
[59:32.560 -> 59:38.160] Ronaldo and seeing his intense professionalism at work there, the early days when they were winning
[59:38.160 -> 59:43.360] titles and trophies here at the very start of his career, all of those highs, lows,
[59:47.320 -> 59:51.480] of his career, all of those highs, lows, the difficult times, the good times, it all adds up to the guy that leads Ajax today.
[59:51.480 -> 59:55.200] And that bit where he, you know, we said, what's the hardest part of the job?
[59:55.200 -> 01:00:00.800] And he said, people doubting and misunderstanding saying, oh, you're just a former goalkeeper.
[01:00:00.800 -> 01:00:04.120] I do feel there's a real fire in his belly in that.
[01:00:04.120 -> 01:00:08.160] Yeah. And again, like we've heard this from people that don't listen to the
[01:00:08.160 -> 01:00:12.400] podcast but have an opinion on it about this is all survivorship bias, this is
[01:00:12.400 -> 01:00:17.040] people that have been successful telling you how successful they've been and yet
[01:00:17.040 -> 01:00:21.460] this is a guy that's actually chosen to go and reinvent himself from somewhere
[01:00:21.460 -> 01:00:27.240] where he was successful to then go and test himself in an environment where results are not immediate, that people are quick to judge without knowing the o le oedd yn gyffrous i fynd i wrando ar ei hun mewn amgylchedd lle nid oedd y canlyniadau'n gyflym
[01:00:27.240 -> 01:00:28.920] y bydd pobl yn gwybod yn ddiweddar
[01:00:28.920 -> 01:00:30.920] heb gwybod'r stori'n fwyaf.
[01:00:30.920 -> 01:00:33.120] Ac rwy'n credu bod yr holl ddifrifnau
[01:00:33.120 -> 01:00:35.960] a dweud o'r dysgu i ddod allan o'r gwirion
[01:00:35.960 -> 01:00:38.360] i sefydlu ar y pethau y gallwch eu gwneud
[01:00:38.360 -> 01:00:40.640] a gwneud y pethau yn y ffyrdd.
[01:00:40.640 -> 01:00:42.160] Roedd e'n siarad am fynd ymlaen o'r swyddfeydd
[01:00:42.160 -> 01:00:43.840] a chymryd â phobl
[01:00:43.840 -> 01:00:47.480] yw eu hunain yn hytrach na mynd i'w gilydd gyda'r gwnes, dim ond ddod allan o'ch gwybodaeth the shadows, you know, he spoke about going around the office and engaging people in who they are rather than going to them with a purpose, just finding out how are you, what
[01:00:47.480 -> 01:00:50.280] are you working on and do that at all levels.
[01:00:50.280 -> 01:00:51.280] I carry it's risks.
[01:00:51.280 -> 01:00:56.560] I'm confident are going to lead him to be successful again, but I love the fact that
[01:00:56.560 -> 01:01:02.120] he's sharing it while he's in the foothills of that journey, rather than looking back
[01:01:02.120 -> 01:01:04.880] and telling us how it was a seamless transition.
[01:01:04.880 -> 01:01:05.200] Nice. Thanks for your time. Loved it, mate. Thank you. rather than looking back and telling us how it was a seamless transition.
[01:01:05.200 -> 01:01:06.760] Nice. Thanks for your time.
[01:01:06.760 -> 01:01:08.120] Loved it, mate. Thank you.
[01:01:09.600 -> 01:01:10.720] So there you go.
[01:01:10.720 -> 01:01:12.040] Look, I know plenty of football fans,
[01:01:12.040 -> 01:01:13.560] plenty of United fans will listen to this.
[01:01:13.560 -> 01:01:14.800] I would love to hear from you.
[01:01:14.800 -> 01:01:17.360] I'd love to hear from Ajax fans.
[01:01:17.360 -> 01:01:19.280] And just really like,
[01:01:19.280 -> 01:01:21.120] it's just worth thinking about the toll
[01:01:21.120 -> 01:01:23.040] that working in football puts on people
[01:01:23.040 -> 01:01:24.560] and whether it's right,
[01:01:24.560 -> 01:01:29.720] whether the way that we talk about and act and think and be around the game of
[01:01:29.720 -> 01:01:33.000] football these days is healthy for anybody. Just a quick reminder that you
[01:01:33.000 -> 01:01:36.640] can check out this interview on our YouTube channel, we'd love you to do that.
[01:01:36.640 -> 01:01:41.960] But the biggest thanks of course goes to Edwin for being with us on today's
[01:01:41.960 -> 01:01:49.800] podcast but also to you for growing and sharing this podcast among your community. Please continue to spread the learnings you're taking from
[01:01:49.800 -> 01:01:55.120] this series. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world-class
[01:01:55.120 -> 01:02:01.160] basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic, and
[01:02:01.160 -> 01:02:30.760] we'll see you very soon. At Fred Meyer, shopping with pickup and delivery is the same as shopping in store. Same low
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