E195 - Gary Barlow: My biggest failure, and why I needed it

Gary Barlow is one of Britain’s most successful songwriters and record producers. As part of pop group Take That, he has won eight BRIT Awards and sold over 45 million records with almost four decades in the music industry.

Gary shares with Jake and Damian the exciting but tumultuous initial years with Take That, the relationships with his band members and how he dealt with world-wide success. He details his attempt to ‘break America’ and how this experience changed his life. Jake, Damian and Gary delve into the most emotional moments of his career, and why it is so important to embrace failure.

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In this episode of the High Performance podcast, Gary Barlow, a legendary British singer-songwriter and record producer, joins hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes for a captivating conversation about his remarkable career, challenges, and triumphs.

Barlow, known for his contributions to the pop group Take That, shares insights into the band's initial years, the dynamics among members, and the overwhelming success they experienced. He reflects on his attempt to break into the American market and how that chapter in his life profoundly impacted him.

Barlow candidly discusses the emotional moments in his career, emphasizing the importance of embracing failures. He recalls a particularly challenging period when he struggled to write songs, retreated from public life, and battled with self-doubt. However, he eventually found the strength to overcome these obstacles and embark on a path of self-discovery and growth.

Throughout the conversation, Barlow emphasizes the significance of resilience and the ability to learn from setbacks. He highlights the value of surrounding oneself with a supportive team and the importance of maintaining a positive mindset even in the face of adversity.

Barlow's journey is a testament to the power of perseverance, self-belief, and the ability to reinvent oneself. His story serves as an inspiration for anyone seeking to achieve high performance in their personal and professional endeavors.

Key Takeaways:

1. Embrace Failure: Barlow emphasizes the importance of embracing failures as opportunities for growth and learning. He believes that setbacks are inevitable and that it is crucial to learn from them and move forward.

2. The Power of Resilience: Barlow's journey highlights the significance of resilience and the ability to bounce back from adversity. He demonstrates that setbacks can be transformed into opportunities for self-discovery and growth.

3. Nurturing a Supportive Team: Barlow acknowledges the role of a supportive team in his success. He emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with individuals who believe in you and provide encouragement during challenging times.

4. Maintaining a Positive Mindset: Barlow stresses the importance of maintaining a positive mindset, even in the face of adversity. He believes that a positive outlook can help individuals overcome challenges and achieve their goals.

5. Reinventing Oneself: Barlow's career demonstrates the power of reinvention. He successfully transitioned from being a member of a popular boy band to a solo artist and songwriter, showcasing his adaptability and resilience.

**Navigating the Tumultuous Initial Years of Take That**

Gary Barlow, a renowned British songwriter and record producer, shares his experiences as a member of the pop group Take That. He recounts the band's exciting yet turbulent early years, discussing the relationships with his bandmates and the challenges of coping with worldwide success.

**Confronting Failure and Embracing Resilience**

Gary reflects on a pivotal moment during his career, a disastrous performance in New York that left him feeling shattered. This experience forced him to confront his own shortcomings and the importance of rehearsal and preparation. He emphasizes the significance of embracing failure as a learning opportunity and the resilience required to overcome setbacks.

**The Emotional Journey of a Creative Artist**

Gary delves into the emotional rollercoaster of his career, describing periods of self-doubt and creative stagnation. He candidly discusses his struggles with weight gain and body image, revealing the coping mechanisms he employed to deal with the public scrutiny and shame he faced.

**Finding Strength in Unity and Open Communication**

Gary highlights the importance of open communication and psychological safety within the band. He credits the group therapy sessions undertaken by Take That members as instrumental in healing old wounds and fostering a sense of unity and trust. This newfound closeness allowed them to navigate their individual struggles and ultimately reunite as a stronger band.

**The Healing Power of Music and the Importance of Support**

Gary emphasizes the therapeutic role that music played in his life, serving as a means of processing his emotions and finding solace during difficult times. He acknowledges the unwavering support of his wife and children, who provided a safe and understanding environment for him to heal and rediscover his passion for music.

**The Transformative Impact of Loss**

Gary reflects on the tragic loss of his daughter, Poppy, and the profound impact it had on his life. He describes the creative process behind the song he wrote in her memory, "Fly High and Let Me Go," and how it helped him cope with his grief. The song serves as a testament to the enduring love and connection between a father and his child.

**Lessons Learned and Advice for Navigating Challenges**

Gary imparts valuable lessons learned from his experiences, emphasizing the importance of kindness and support in relationships. He encourages individuals to be gentle with themselves and others, particularly during challenging times. He also stresses the significance of seeking professional help when needed and utilizing available resources to promote mental well-being.

# Gary Barlow: "Embrace Failure and Find What Truly Excites You"

## Introduction:

- Gary Barlow, a prominent figure in British music, shares his experiences and insights on High Performance Podcast.
- Barlow's journey from the early days of Take That to his successful solo career is explored.
- The podcast delves into Barlow's approach to work-life balance, handling adversity, and finding fulfillment.

## Key Insights:

### 1. The Significance of Adversity:

- Barlow emphasizes the transformative power of adversity, highlighting how challenging experiences can lead to positive outcomes.
- He encourages embracing failure as an opportunity for growth and learning.
- Barlow's own experiences, including his attempt to break into the American market, taught him valuable lessons.

### 2. The Value of Support and Collaboration:

- Barlow stresses the importance of supportive relationships, both personal and professional.
- He acknowledges the role of his bandmates, team members, and family in his success.
- Barlow emphasizes the significance of teamwork and valuing the contributions of others.

### 3. Finding Passion and Purpose:

- Barlow believes that pursuing activities that genuinely excite and fulfill one is crucial for a high-performance life.
- He encourages individuals to identify their passions and invest their time and energy in them.
- Barlow's own passion for music has been a driving force throughout his career.

### 4. Maintaining a Healthy Work-Life Balance:

- Barlow discusses the challenges of balancing a demanding career with personal life.
- He emphasizes the importance of making time for family and personal well-being.
- Barlow highlights the need to avoid taking things too seriously and to find moments of joy and relaxation.

### 5. Key Principles for a High-Performance Life:

- Barlow offers three guiding principles for achieving a high-performance life:
- Prioritize activities that align with your passions, purpose, or provide financial gain.
- Embrace fun and avoid taking things too seriously.
- Foster a collaborative and supportive environment.

## Conclusion:

- Gary Barlow's journey and insights provide valuable lessons for individuals seeking fulfillment and success in their personal and professional lives.
- The podcast highlights the importance of embracing adversity, finding passion, maintaining a healthy work-life balance, and fostering supportive relationships.
- Barlow's message encourages individuals to pursue their dreams, find joy in their endeavors, and make a positive impact on the world.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.640] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast
[00:05.640 -> 00:08.160] that reminds you it's within.
[00:08.160 -> 00:12.020] As always, hello to our regular listeners right across the world who tune into us every
[00:12.020 -> 00:17.280] week so that we can be your armor, your partner, your guide in a world that so often feels
[00:17.280 -> 00:19.280] negative, divisive, or confused.
[00:19.280 -> 00:23.880] And an especially warm welcome to anyone that hasn't listened to High Performance before.
[00:23.880 -> 00:30.000] Look, we really want these conversations to remind you of your power, your potential, and what you're all capable of.
[00:30.000 -> 00:35.000] So right now, allow myself and Professor Damian Hughes to unlock the mind of another fascinating guest,
[00:35.000 -> 00:38.000] so they can be your teacher today.
[00:38.000 -> 00:41.000] This is what's coming up on today's episode.
[00:42.000 -> 00:45.600] It's the perfect press story that two guys from the same band
[00:45.600 -> 00:52.400] are coming out, one's making great music versus this guy who is now a watered-down
[00:52.400 -> 00:58.400] version of who he was before he went to America. It just played itself out as
[00:58.400 -> 01:03.760] badly as it could. The worst three minutes I think of my whole life.
[01:03.760 -> 01:06.000] There's no coming back from this.
[01:06.000 -> 01:09.000] There's no second performance to launch yourself in America.
[01:09.000 -> 01:11.000] This was it.
[01:11.000 -> 01:15.000] And I also knew, I'm not meant to be this guy.
[01:15.000 -> 01:16.000] I'm better than this.
[01:16.000 -> 01:18.000] I need to sort this out.
[01:19.000 -> 01:22.000] But the first run I did, I was so out of shape,
[01:22.000 -> 01:25.940] but it felt brilliant to run it felt brilliant
[01:25.940 -> 01:31.460] to move to feel air going across my face I just remember giggling to myself
[01:31.460 -> 01:35.140] walking back thinking I've got a lot to do here but you know what it's alright
[01:35.140 -> 01:39.500] because I'm on the I'm on the road now where I'm at now in my life it's such a
[01:39.500 -> 01:45.000] great place that I have to look back and go, God, I needed to fail.
[01:46.000 -> 01:48.540] So today we welcome Gary Barlow to High Performance.
[01:48.540 -> 01:50.300] Man, this was a cool conversation.
[01:50.300 -> 01:52.500] Like, I'm sure that like many people,
[01:52.500 -> 01:53.980] you have an opinion of Gary Barlow.
[01:53.980 -> 01:54.820] Like, who doesn't?
[01:54.820 -> 01:56.020] He's the guy from Take That.
[01:56.020 -> 01:58.600] He's the guy who's been on our TV screens for years.
[01:58.600 -> 02:01.460] He's the guy who's been in the papers for decades.
[02:01.460 -> 02:04.700] But please remember this podcast is not about opinion.
[02:04.700 -> 02:06.520] Opinion is worthless.
[02:06.520 -> 02:11.180] It's empathy that really matters. And we want you to understand more about Gary Barlow than
[02:11.180 -> 02:15.780] you ever have before. Of course, we talk about the great times and there's been many of those,
[02:15.780 -> 02:21.060] but we also talk really emotionally, really openly and really deeply about the challenges,
[02:21.060 -> 02:26.600] the challenges of finding fame and maybe not feeling totally comfortable
[02:26.600 -> 02:31.240] in that setting. So behaving in a way that perhaps you now wouldn't or certainly back
[02:31.240 -> 02:36.400] then you shouldn't. You know, we talk about what it was like when Gary got the great moment
[02:36.400 -> 02:41.800] to go to the States to launch his solo career and it didn't go as planned. What really happened
[02:41.800 -> 02:45.680] when he became a recluse, he closed the doors of his mansion,
[02:45.680 -> 02:50.840] he comfort ate, he didn't write songs, he looked at the piano and saw it as an enemy
[02:50.840 -> 02:56.500] rather than the thing that had given him so much joy over the years. And how, from the
[02:56.500 -> 03:01.320] depths of despair, you can bounce back. This is a conversation about the fact that we're
[03:01.320 -> 03:08.640] not fixed. It's a conversation about the fact that you don't know what's around the corner, that life is a constant roller coaster, that
[03:08.640 -> 03:12.720] you need to learn to deal with the ups as well as cope with the downs and
[03:12.720 -> 03:16.740] that's something that Gary has done throughout his life and through the
[03:16.740 -> 03:20.380] struggles and through the hard times. He's learned such valuable lessons that
[03:20.380 -> 03:28.080] I know you are gonna really get a lot from. So let's do it then. As we welcome one of the most legendary British
[03:28.080 -> 03:30.420] singer-songwriters to high performance,
[03:30.420 -> 03:34.060] ladies and gentlemen, our chat with Gary Barlow.
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[05:18.200 -> 05:23.360] Gary, welcome to High Performance. Thank you so much, lovely to be here. So what is
[05:23.360 -> 05:26.000] your definition of high performance?
[05:26.000 -> 05:30.000] Just hearing those two words, I'd probably say touring.
[05:30.000 -> 05:34.000] I think that's possibly where all the stars align,
[05:34.000 -> 05:39.000] you know, music that you've been creating for maybe one or two years,
[05:39.000 -> 05:41.000] you've been out, told the world about,
[05:41.000 -> 05:45.360] and then you get the job of going out and performing it. And
[05:45.360 -> 05:52.800] usually a tour is something I'd train towards, a night after night event, so you've got to
[05:52.800 -> 05:57.040] keep yourself fit and healthy, on the top of your game. I think that's when artists
[05:57.040 -> 06:00.600] are at their absolute peak performance, is when they're on tour.
[06:00.600 -> 06:02.400] Toby Nice. Well, the two of us came to see you
[06:02.400 -> 06:09.480] on tour, but it wasn't one of the huge arenas with the pop songs and the tens of thousands of people. It was one of your really
[06:09.480 -> 06:13.480] intimate and enjoyable theatre shows where you basically shared the stories of your life
[06:13.480 -> 06:18.520] and the things you've learned along the way. The thing that got the both of us really was
[06:18.520 -> 06:23.280] that emotional connection to your upbringing and your childhood, which still sort of rings
[06:23.280 -> 06:28.920] true in you today. I love the fact that you had the original bit of equipment that your dad had
[06:28.920 -> 06:33.480] bought for you to learn to play piano on, and I just wonder what your dad's
[06:33.480 -> 06:38.960] sacrifice... was it a keyboard or was it an organ? It was an organ. It was a little organ.
[06:38.960 -> 06:43.360] They weren't pushy parents, they're still not, but they saw
[06:43.360 -> 06:49.520] something and thought let's enhance this, and so he took me off to this music shop and we asked the guy in
[06:49.520 -> 06:53.680] there, where do we go from here? And the guy said, oh this is the thing
[06:53.680 -> 06:58.240] over here and took us over to this, they're called Electrone, these organs,
[06:58.240 -> 07:03.000] Yamaha organs, sort of early 80s models. So of course I went off into the bedroom
[07:03.000 -> 07:10.380] for six months and just literally didn't get off the stool, learnt this thing back to front and opened the
[07:10.380 -> 07:15.500] door one day and I could play it, I could make it work and I think the
[07:15.500 -> 07:20.520] day that my dad sort of realized what he'd done for me was when he brought the
[07:20.520 -> 07:25.440] neighbors round and they sat on my bed and I played for him and
[07:25.440 -> 07:29.840] the wife was crying and the husband was on his feet clapping his hands because
[07:29.840 -> 07:33.800] they enjoyed it so much and my dad turned to me and said if you can do that
[07:33.800 -> 07:37.880] to people you'll have a job for the rest of your life and I was 11 at that point
[07:37.880 -> 07:43.080] so it was really like okay where do we go from here so it was massive massive
[07:43.080 -> 07:45.680] for me as a child to have my dad
[07:45.680 -> 07:49.840] sell all his time off at work to buy me this. It was enormous.
[07:49.840 -> 07:56.160] And what was it that that organ gave you that meant that you did go and
[07:56.160 -> 08:00.600] lock yourself away for six months? Because that level of commitment for an
[08:00.600 -> 08:13.040] 11 year old child is pretty unusual but significant. I think what it unlocked in me was this passion for music and I've been given this small bit of raw talent
[08:13.040 -> 08:21.440] that meant I could by ear learn a tune and knock it out and play it quite well and I wanted more.
[08:21.440 -> 08:26.720] It was like an obsession and that went on for years and years and years
[08:27.760 -> 08:31.320] Until I could read music. I was playing in bigger clubs
[08:31.320 -> 08:37.360] I was playing every night of the week and then the door opened then to starting to sing
[08:37.960 -> 08:43.840] Around sort of age of 15. We we had a a bit of a blank night in a club
[08:43.840 -> 08:45.280] I was playing in, one of the singers
[08:45.280 -> 08:50.120] didn't turn up and it was one of those places where they just expect an act to
[08:50.120 -> 08:55.880] be on every night. So the bingo had finished, the act hadn't turned up and it
[08:55.880 -> 09:00.400] was like what do we do now? And I'd been singing a little bit at home and so I
[09:00.400 -> 09:05.880] thought you know what I'm gonna give them a song here. And I broke into a whiter shade of pale.
[09:06.080 -> 09:08.480] I like the place went crazy.
[09:08.680 -> 09:11.320] And so that's when the singing really started.
[09:11.520 -> 09:17.960] And I guess the songwriting began about that time of my life as well, about 15.
[09:18.160 -> 09:20.040] There needs to be something else there as well, though,
[09:20.240 -> 09:24.040] because you can have all of that talent and that desire and that drive.
[09:24.240 -> 09:29.680] Resilience is vital. Where did the resiliency ability to get up and perform or to have a bad day or
[09:29.680 -> 09:34.300] to have bad news or to have that, I mean you're a young guy getting that kind of reaction.
[09:34.300 -> 09:39.040] How do you go again at that age? Yeah, it's an interesting one that because definitely
[09:39.040 -> 09:46.120] between 16 and 18 I knew that the clubs wasn't enough and so I was trying to get a
[09:46.120 -> 09:50.000] publishing deal or a record deal so I was coming to have my student rail card
[09:50.000 -> 09:54.520] and I was getting on the train at Runcorn and got into Houston and I was
[09:54.520 -> 09:59.320] going and touring around the labels and so what my day would often consist of is
[09:59.320 -> 10:03.360] it's Monday morning I get on the train it's a four-hour train journey at this
[10:03.360 -> 10:09.120] point you get to London you go and sit at EMI Records in reception waiting to see somebody and
[10:09.120 -> 10:13.920] some days you'd sit there for six hours, no one would come, you'd get back on the
[10:13.920 -> 10:19.160] train and go back home. And so that went on for like one or two years and I
[10:19.160 -> 10:23.960] thought right and what I need is I need a partner, I need someone who's between me
[10:23.960 -> 10:26.400] and the label, a manager to go and do
[10:26.400 -> 10:32.880] that job for me while I'm writing and singing. And that's when I did all the applications to the local
[10:32.880 -> 10:39.440] management companies and landed at Nigel Martin-Smith's office in Manchester. And he decided
[10:39.440 -> 10:44.480] that this band he was going to make, he says, right, you're the middle, you're the guy in the middle,
[10:44.480 -> 10:48.040] I want you to write the songs, I want you to, you know, be part of all
[10:48.040 -> 10:53.280] the production, you are the music guy in this band. And he said that that's what
[10:53.280 -> 10:58.360] what his focus was of building this band then around me. So it was a big, big
[10:58.360 -> 11:03.520] moment for me that was. And at the second meeting he then showed me pictures of
[11:03.520 -> 11:05.440] these other guys
[11:09.380 -> 11:09.900] And only one of them these guys didn't end up in the group
[11:14.960 -> 11:21.740] Can I take you back to the clubs though before we get into the story of the origins of time? Ah, would you tell us a little bit about what you learn about being able to read a room to watch an audience and be able
[11:21.740 -> 11:23.740] to connect with them
[11:23.800 -> 11:25.600] Yeah, it was it was
[11:25.600 -> 11:32.160] people talk about this 10,000 hours thing a lot and it really relates to
[11:32.160 -> 11:36.560] music and it was one of the things that used to frustrate me so much when I was
[11:36.560 -> 11:41.340] on X Factor was that people think they can just walk on a stage and it just the
[11:41.340 -> 11:50.140] magic just happens you might have a great voice but it's not enough. You might have a great song but it's not enough. It's this being on a
[11:50.140 -> 11:56.940] stage and slowly learning what works and what doesn't, what people relate to, how
[11:56.940 -> 12:02.740] to work an audience over an hour, how to do these things. And what was fascinating
[12:02.740 -> 12:06.300] for me was is that when I was playing in these
[12:06.300 -> 12:13.660] clubs I'd often be sat behind the artist, the person I wanted to be, I was sat behind
[12:13.660 -> 12:19.660] them, I was playing instrumentation for them, I'd have the best view because I'd be watching
[12:19.660 -> 12:27.360] what they were seeing. So I could see them so cleverly work in the room, even to the
[12:27.360 -> 12:31.740] point where now and again comedians would point at something and I knew they
[12:31.740 -> 12:35.960] were looking at their watch to see how long they'd done. And it was
[12:35.960 -> 12:41.200] just this wave of bringing an audience through a performance which
[12:41.200 -> 12:45.080] really fascinated me and experience of doing that. It's just
[12:45.080 -> 12:50.680] you can't tell somebody how to do it, they have to learn how to do it personally by
[12:50.680 -> 12:55.400] going through the nights where you don't even get an applause or you've got to go
[12:55.400 -> 12:59.960] through that to learn how to make an audience do what you want them to do.
[12:59.960 -> 13:06.040] So you've been given this natural ability to hear music, repeat it, write songs, create
[13:06.040 -> 13:09.680] a bit of magic on the piano, your dad's then backed you and given you that confidence because
[13:09.680 -> 13:15.040] he's gone and spent a lot of hard earned money on the organ, and then you've gone into Nigel's
[13:15.040 -> 13:17.540] office and suddenly you're in this band, right?
[13:17.540 -> 13:23.620] Give us an idea at that age of your confidence levels, because it feels like you've almost
[13:23.620 -> 13:26.100] already had a career and maybe some of the other guys
[13:26.680 -> 13:29.700] seemed a bit fresher, a bit more inexperienced than you.
[13:29.700 -> 13:32.500] Yeah, it was very much that actually.
[13:32.500 -> 13:35.500] Especially vocally,
[13:35.500 -> 13:38.500] no one had really had much experience at all,
[13:38.500 -> 13:41.500] and that's what Nigel, you know, wanted me to do,
[13:41.500 -> 13:44.500] is like, get everyone up to, get them in the studio,
[13:44.500 -> 13:47.560] get them all singing, get them harmonizing and all that stuff and we
[13:47.560 -> 13:51.960] spent probably 18 months doing that before we even started looking for
[13:51.960 -> 13:56.880] labels. That was our sort of journey to getting a record deal was just trying to
[13:56.880 -> 14:01.440] be out there performing. This wasn't a club audience now this was a this was a
[14:01.440 -> 14:05.720] whole new thing this was this was you know young thing, this was. This was, you know, young kids.
[14:05.720 -> 14:08.360] I'd never even seen them in these clubs, you know,
[14:08.360 -> 14:10.280] it was a whole different crowd, this was.
[14:10.280 -> 14:13.040] So the set list changed completely.
[14:13.040 -> 14:14.840] And also, you know, we had like a show,
[14:14.840 -> 14:16.800] a couple of the lads were Madonna fans,
[14:16.800 -> 14:17.720] a couple of Prince fans,
[14:17.720 -> 14:19.760] these are artists who put on shows.
[14:19.760 -> 14:22.360] So that's when all the dance routines start,
[14:22.360 -> 14:24.720] you know, it wasn't enough to just sing in front of a mic,
[14:24.720 -> 14:31.440] we wanted to put this big event on for an audience never dreaming that we've been able to actually do all this
[14:31.800 -> 14:39.000] But that was our first sort of two years before we even got a record deal. We went into RCA records
[14:39.600 -> 14:45.160] as this really dated looking boy band with I would would, the sort of music I was making was
[14:45.160 -> 14:53.080] sort of 1988, not 1991. And the A&R departments were going, this is, this is never going to
[14:53.080 -> 15:00.620] work. However, the promotion departments were in the A&R offices saying, we've got all the
[15:00.620 -> 15:07.560] magazines saying, there's no one they can put on the cover. They got all these dance acts they don't even know what they look like we
[15:07.560 -> 15:11.540] need someone to put on there so they were begging the A&R departments to sign
[15:11.540 -> 15:16.580] us which is how we got signed not on the music or any of that they just like
[15:16.580 -> 15:20.600] wanted a band that they could put on their magazines. But can I ask you about that
[15:20.600 -> 15:26.000] that two-year period sounds fascinating when you've been thrown together with Mae'r amser o ddwy flynedd yn ddiddorol, pan fyddwch chi'n cael eich gilydd â chwech o ffyrdd,
[15:26.000 -> 15:32.000] rydych chi wedi'i gynnal fel ymgyrch, oherwydd eich bod chi'n ymwybodol.
[15:32.000 -> 15:40.000] Mae'n rhaid i'r 18-oed fod yn gallu rhoi'r cymorth, y cyfathrebu neu'r gyrfa
[15:40.000 -> 15:46.680] mewn ffordd ddiddorol, heb cael cael gweithio'n ffricio neu'n cael anoddau. or instruction in an emotionally intelligent way without causing friction or difficulties.
[15:46.680 -> 15:50.880] So what was your experience of being able to do that?
[15:50.880 -> 15:55.980] You'd have four different answers to this in, you know, if you asked everybody else.
[15:55.980 -> 16:01.640] But it was a funny one because there was definitely times where it felt like this is going nowhere.
[16:01.640 -> 16:05.840] You know, we had three misses before we had a hit, we had three
[16:05.840 -> 16:12.320] big releases, didn't even go in the top 40. How did you keep faith in your
[16:12.320 -> 16:15.720] abilities as a songwriter because that must have been really hard, especially
[16:15.720 -> 16:20.000] trying to convince the others in the band as well that your talent is worth
[16:20.000 -> 16:24.560] listening to. It's like anything when things aren't going your way everybody's
[16:24.560 -> 16:26.120] second-guessing everything and it was an interesting one because when you of listening to. It's like anything when things aren't going your way
[16:23.480 -> 16:29.560] everybody's second-guessing everything and
[16:26.120 -> 16:32.840] it was an interesting one because when
[16:29.560 -> 16:35.640] you think of what a manager does, managers
[16:32.840 -> 16:37.920] are there to keep your confidence at the
[16:35.640 -> 16:39.600] absolute highest. There was so many times
[16:37.920 -> 16:42.400] I thought I don't ever believe this
[16:39.600 -> 16:44.560] but he was so believable the way he was
[16:42.400 -> 16:46.680] saying, talking about success, he was
[16:44.560 -> 16:47.320] talking about it like it had already happened.
[16:47.320 -> 16:50.320] That we just went along as a team.
[16:50.320 -> 16:52.320] And he was right.
[16:52.320 -> 16:56.320] And I've read that you said that you kept a file of facts at this stage where
[16:56.320 -> 16:59.320] you were writing down your goals of I want to get on top of the Pops,
[16:59.320 -> 17:02.320] I want to have a number one record and things like that.
[17:02.320 -> 17:05.700] When did you start doing that kind of goal setting
[17:05.700 -> 17:12.000] to give yourself that aspiration and the ambition? Probably many years before.
[17:12.000 -> 17:18.880] Right. I think back a lot to who I was back in those teenage years, the
[17:18.880 -> 17:24.020] confidence was through the roof and I think it's because I was good at what I
[17:24.020 -> 17:25.580] did and I was confident
[17:25.580 -> 17:29.300] in it. In a whole week of gigs, six out of ten I could have a standing ovation
[17:29.300 -> 17:34.980] every night. I really believed it was gonna be successful and when it was, it
[17:34.980 -> 17:39.660] wasn't that much of a surprise to me and of course that that's the time when when
[17:39.660 -> 17:45.940] we were starting to have this big success around 92, the world of doing what we do just
[17:45.940 -> 17:51.880] took over everybody. There wasn't time to be thinking about what's your next goal
[17:51.880 -> 17:59.120] or it was literally just flights, interviews, gigs when you were knackered,
[17:59.120 -> 18:02.880] you're losing your voice because you've been talking all day. It was, there were a
[18:02.880 -> 18:10.080] really hard few years. Did you realise realise that in this period now, like, it's the great stuff because it's the
[18:10.080 -> 18:15.600] big hits and the big events and stuff, but all the personal growth disappears, all of the
[18:16.400 -> 18:21.360] deep learning that you're able to do disappears, you kind of, you're so in it, you're so obsessed
[18:21.360 -> 18:30.680] with it, I guess, that it doesn't allow for any of that stuff. Yeah it takes over, there's things I think back on a lot of where we'd be
[18:30.680 -> 18:34.080] finishing a tour and we've been out for I don't know six months or something and
[18:34.080 -> 18:38.840] we get home and everyone's booking holidays and I get a call saying oh the
[18:38.840 -> 18:42.840] label we need the album next week and I haven't written anything because we've
[18:42.840 -> 18:48.360] been on the road so I watch everyone go off to Magaluf and all these places and I've got to write an
[18:48.360 -> 18:54.840] album now in a week and I look back and I think God look at that album I wrote
[18:54.840 -> 19:00.040] that week, with like three big songs on it like... Did you mind this? Were you
[19:00.040 -> 19:11.840] thinking give us a break or were you so No. So single-minded in... I think I was I was so it was so automatic that it just came out even like when I think about how
[19:11.840 -> 19:16.780] long we talk about our direction and where we want to go next and that was
[19:16.780 -> 19:22.940] decided in an evening you know it was it's just really amazing the massive
[19:22.940 -> 19:28.560] decisions that you make in those circumstances of like mayhem and
[19:28.560 -> 19:35.020] travel and gigs and I mean just yeah the things that we put so much thought into now were
[19:35.020 -> 19:37.600] literally a five second decision back then.
[19:37.600 -> 19:40.540] Toby Nobody's flawless right? You were delivering
[19:40.540 -> 19:49.160] an amazing set of songs and albums and music and doing so much for the band but there's a everything has a price right so so what were you
[19:49.160 -> 19:52.540] like as a person at this point I remember watching something where you
[19:52.540 -> 19:55.400] and the guys all got together in a pub and you talked about coming back and you
[19:55.400 -> 19:59.160] remember I can't remember which bandmate of yours but they said I'm not sure like I
[19:59.160 -> 20:04.120] remember what you were like at that time yeah I'm interested on the impact of
[20:04.120 -> 20:05.120] that had on you and what
[20:05.120 -> 20:08.200] you think about when you sort of take those words on board.
[20:08.200 -> 20:13.960] Oh I think I was unbearable, I really do, I really do. I think about it a lot actually
[20:13.960 -> 20:18.080] because you know I look at my band members over the years I think God they've put up
[20:18.080 -> 20:24.120] with a lot. I was right all the time and I was the leader all the time. That original
[20:24.120 -> 20:25.240] role I'd been given
[20:25.240 -> 20:30.040] I didn't give any of it up as the years went on. The band needed to end
[20:30.040 -> 20:34.240] because we did all end with a handshake at the end and everyone went their
[20:34.240 -> 20:37.800] separate ways and you know Rob had got out a little early it was all getting
[20:37.800 -> 20:43.840] too much for him. It's easy looking back on this now and and having a and having
[20:43.840 -> 20:49.520] because of course where I'm at now in my life it's such a great place that I have to look back and go
[20:49.520 -> 20:55.760] God I needed to fail because it couldn't carry on in that way it was just too
[20:55.760 -> 21:01.080] unbearable to be around. So when Robbie leaves your band yeah you probably
[21:01.080 -> 21:07.400] thinking no problem yeah off you go? Yeah it's a funny one because the whole Rob thing I mean it's such a such a
[21:07.400 -> 21:11.880] scary thing to always talk about because I always felt feel like you're comfy now
[21:11.880 -> 21:16.920] talking about it I'm never comfy talking about anyone I always think they should
[21:16.920 -> 21:22.160] have their own say but but he's not here so I can probably talk about it
[21:22.160 -> 21:26.920] semi-freely Rob my friends my friends were Jason and Howard, it
[21:26.920 -> 21:31.760] was the three of us, we were the older ones, we got on. Mark and Rob were always a bit
[21:31.760 -> 21:35.600] removed for us, they were the cool younger ones and they were the naughty ones and they
[21:35.600 -> 21:41.000] were always off doing something else. So it wasn't like Jay or Howard leaving the band,
[21:41.000 -> 21:50.440] it was Rob, you know, it'd be fine, it'd be fine let it you know and I think we all look back at that period and think God Rob was
[21:50.440 -> 21:55.460] what he wasn't even 16 when he joined the band he's two weeks off being 16 so
[21:55.460 -> 22:02.720] I'm thinking at 19 being told I'm brilliant and how who I'd become well
[22:02.720 -> 22:05.600] who'd he become I mean told that from 16 you know
[22:05.600 -> 22:10.880] it's just a we've all we all had our different journeys but it just got it
[22:10.880 -> 22:16.000] just gone too much for him the day in day out the work the the stress of it
[22:16.000 -> 22:20.880] all and you know me leading everybody telling them what to do it just got too
[22:20.880 -> 22:26.760] much for him so he was the first to go go What did you think he would go on to do at that point?
[22:27.440 -> 22:28.880] well
[22:28.880 -> 22:33.800] There's one thing I've always remembered about Rob. He's talented. Yeah, very talented, you know
[22:33.800 -> 22:37.840] He he when we started, you know, it was me and Rob are the singers
[22:37.840 -> 22:42.860] You know, we were the two who were always in the studio and you know, he's great on a stage
[22:43.040 -> 22:50.360] There was never any doubt of that for me, but little did I think he'd ever go on to do I don't think if you
[22:50.360 -> 22:54.280] asked Rob though he would say I can't believe what's happened I mean it's it's
[22:54.280 -> 22:59.560] for anybody no no one can believe their success I can't believe mine you know at
[22:59.560 -> 23:04.180] this point but but we've all had it and and taking it to pieces is an
[23:04.180 -> 23:05.000] interesting thing
[23:05.000 -> 23:09.600] But if you ask Rob, you know about his success, he'd say he couldn't believe it either
[23:09.900 -> 23:13.300] So if we'd have come along to you at this stage when take that I mean
[23:13.800 -> 23:18.000] Pomp at that stage of your career and asked how much do you think?
[23:18.320 -> 23:23.760] The success is down to you as an individual and how much would you say is the best of the band?
[23:23.800 -> 23:29.600] What would you answer have been in In the 90s? In the 90s. There's definitely, you know, we were
[23:29.600 -> 23:35.840] always aware that like Mark was the most popular because I'm, there's, there's,
[23:35.840 -> 23:39.720] there's such a brilliant manager our manager was because he used to set out
[23:39.720 -> 23:44.640] the fan mail so you could see who was the most popular. Great! That'd get you on
[23:44.640 -> 23:45.040] your feet.
[23:45.040 -> 23:48.100] Where was where were you on that list? I was about the middle everyone called
[23:48.100 -> 23:52.980] Mark the cute one and he was he was a gorgeous, I mean he still is, but but you
[23:52.980 -> 23:58.480] know he's just just the perfect crush isn't he Mark? I was probably jealous a
[23:58.480 -> 24:02.260] bit definitely but but I always thought it was interesting the way we could all
[24:02.260 -> 24:05.360] see who was there. And was that done deliberately, you think?
[24:05.360 -> 24:07.680] I don't know, don't know. Yeah.
[24:07.680 -> 24:10.320] And what answer would you come to in terms of
[24:10.320 -> 24:13.280] the percent that you're responsible for, take that success at this point?
[24:13.280 -> 24:17.520] Musically, I'd say most of it for the 90s.
[24:17.520 -> 24:20.720] But, you know, standing on a stage, I always felt
[24:20.720 -> 24:24.560] really strong when I was with the band.
[24:24.560 -> 24:27.280] Our performance was definitely a piece of
[24:27.280 -> 24:32.440] the success which a lot of other bands didn't have. The live event was always a big thing
[24:32.440 -> 24:39.520] for our band, still is. And so I could never feel like I was the biggest part of that.
[24:39.520 -> 24:46.120] So Robbie's left, you remain with the other guys and then the decisions taken to break the hearts of
[24:46.120 -> 24:52.300] millions of girls around the world and boys and go your separate ways. Was there any fear
[24:52.300 -> 24:53.460] at this point from you?
[24:53.460 -> 24:54.460] Steve No, no.
[24:54.460 -> 24:55.460] Ricky Not an ounce?
[24:55.460 -> 24:58.840] Steve Not an ounce of fear, no. I mean we all sat
[24:58.840 -> 25:07.000] and made the decision, everyone was ready for just like, just take this burden away. It just felt too much.
[25:07.000 -> 25:11.000] In what way? So you describe it as a burden, that's interesting.
[25:11.000 -> 25:27.480] Yeah, it was not fun anymore. It was just crazy. I remember we were in like Singapore or somewhere on tour and we were going home the next day. And of course, we'd all we'd all know what we were going home to.
[25:27.680 -> 25:32.560] Just just, you know, lines of people outside your house and you couldn't do anything.
[25:32.760 -> 25:37.160] I remember us phoning and saying to Nigel, can we go somewhere else?
[25:37.360 -> 25:39.400] And he'd be like, you've been away for five months.
[25:39.600 -> 25:41.200] I don't want to go home.
[25:41.400 -> 25:42.840] It was just too much.
[25:43.040 -> 25:44.600] So the band ends. Yeah.
[25:44.800 -> 25:45.680] But Gary Barlow's only
[25:45.680 -> 25:49.600] just beginning at this point. The self-belief is still sky-high. Yeah. You're
[25:49.600 -> 25:53.920] ready to tackle the world and you're ready to tackle America. Mm-hmm. How did
[25:53.920 -> 25:59.880] that go? We'd just had Back For Good out, so it was our biggest record to date and
[25:59.880 -> 26:03.400] we'd had a hit with it in America. We had a top-five record with it. We ended up
[26:03.400 -> 26:05.860] doing Letterman and all these things.
[26:05.860 -> 26:10.360] And we came home and dissolved the band and I was ready to go back and one of the guys
[26:10.360 -> 26:14.880] that run the record label there, he said, I don't care that the band split up, I want
[26:14.880 -> 26:16.560] the guy who wrote that.
[26:16.560 -> 26:17.560] And it was me.
[26:17.560 -> 26:20.560] She said, get him over here, we'll make a record with him.
[26:20.560 -> 26:27.840] So I arrive in America and we have this very, very weird record-making
[26:27.840 -> 26:33.980] process with Clive Davis who's the head of Arista. Very big personality in
[26:33.980 -> 26:39.600] America, well-known record executive signed Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, I
[26:39.600 -> 26:44.880] mean just a massive, exactly how you'd imagine a record executive to look. I
[26:44.880 -> 26:46.560] knew who he was but I
[26:46.560 -> 26:52.200] didn't know anything about his history, but it was very clear to me very early on, he
[26:52.200 -> 26:58.040] just didn't like my songs. I was taking things in and he was like, no, no, no.
[26:58.040 -> 27:03.320] How was that for you? Because you hadn't had that kind of management or conversation much
[27:03.320 -> 27:04.320] had you?
[27:04.320 -> 27:10.080] Well I'd say to him, well listen, I release that next month in England I'll have a I'll have a
[27:10.080 -> 27:14.520] massive hit with it so I don't know what the problem is you know yeah it just
[27:14.520 -> 27:19.720] didn't get it and so kept suggesting these cover versions and I'm just like
[27:19.720 -> 27:25.160] what do I want to do that for him? But I knew he was the key to getting into a
[27:25.160 -> 27:29.720] make so I was trying to do two things I was trying to write something which he
[27:29.720 -> 27:35.080] liked so all of a sudden for the first time I'm now trying to write to someone
[27:35.080 -> 27:40.440] else's taste so that was really odd so of course it's not coming from the heart
[27:40.440 -> 27:45.220] anymore it's it's not coming from my place, it's coming to try and
[27:45.220 -> 27:49.960] please somebody and I just think as soon as you start doing that you're on a road
[27:49.960 -> 27:55.480] to nowhere. So what we ended up with is this hopscotch album of things he liked,
[27:55.480 -> 28:01.960] things I liked, it was weird, it's a weird, weird record but we'd worked on it for
[28:01.960 -> 28:05.400] so long and we'd spent so much money recording it, so many
[28:05.400 -> 28:12.320] trips and it just had to come out and I knew, I knew it was wrong and I was proved right.
[28:12.320 -> 28:15.040] People just did not connect with it at all.
[28:15.040 -> 28:21.160] Coupled with the fact that Robbie was having these big hits now as a solo artist and it
[28:21.160 -> 28:22.840] was just like the perfect story.
[28:22.840 -> 28:25.280] It's the perfect press story that two
[28:25.280 -> 28:30.780] guys from the same band are coming out, one's making great music, we're hearing
[28:30.780 -> 28:34.680] from someone we've never even, we've never even heard his voice before this
[28:34.680 -> 28:38.640] guy, you know, we've never heard him write songs before and they're great songs
[28:38.640 -> 28:46.120] versus this guy who is now a watered-down version of who he was before he went to America, it just
[28:46.120 -> 28:52.560] played itself out as badly as it could. And so by the time we sort of released
[28:52.560 -> 28:58.200] two records that didn't do anything from that album, RCA dropped me.
[28:58.200 -> 29:02.960] Will you go back and tell us about that incident with Clive Davis that you recount in
[29:02.960 -> 29:09.740] your show? Because you know that opening night party to introduce you to America yes what really
[29:09.740 -> 29:13.500] resonated with me and your retelling of it was the wisdom of your dad from
[29:13.500 -> 29:17.180] Connors Quay working men's club that came back and reminded you to show you
[29:17.180 -> 29:21.260] that doesn't matter how big a stage you are common sense is common sense yeah
[29:21.260 -> 29:28.180] yeah it was a real moment that night. I had a single that I
[29:28.180 -> 29:31.840] didn't write, it was a cover version, but Clive was happy, this is the big launch,
[29:31.840 -> 29:37.740] great, great, great, and you're gonna be on my pre-Grammy party tonight. So now I'm
[29:37.740 -> 29:47.840] like, Grammys, New York, Clive Davis, this is it. So I get on the Concorde, they fly me over, I land there
[29:47.840 -> 29:53.600] and as I land I go into Clive's office because we've got an afternoon rehearsal
[29:53.600 -> 29:58.240] and he says it's gonna be amazing you're gonna launch yourself tonight we're
[29:58.240 -> 30:04.080] gonna play the new song however I've got a remix of it. The word remix straight
[30:04.080 -> 30:05.540] away because you know I'm a
[30:05.540 -> 30:09.200] I'm in a pop band I'm not in a dance band I'm in like a pop band I'm used to
[30:09.200 -> 30:16.840] like radio music. So on comes this mix and literally the slices of my vocal in
[30:16.840 -> 30:21.360] this track like that pieces have all been moved and the verse is where the
[30:21.360 -> 30:25.020] chorus used to be and it's all jumbled up and I'm
[30:25.020 -> 30:30.680] sat there listening and I'm thinking this is not right but he's Clive Davis
[30:30.680 -> 30:36.320] I'm just a guy from Frodsham what do I know I've got to do it this is the
[30:36.320 -> 30:40.160] doorway to America I've got to get on there tonight so we go to this rehearsal
[30:40.160 -> 30:48.120] and I'm stood on the stage and and the mute the backing tracks on and I'm stood on the stage and the backing tracks on and I'm thinking where the hell is I just don't know where anything is
[30:49.000 -> 30:52.360] And I know what I should have done. I should have said I'm going home
[30:52.520 -> 30:56.200] I'll see you next year at the pre-grammy party because this isn't right
[30:57.400 -> 31:03.680] But I didn't I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna learn this thing and I'm gonna go on and I'm gonna kill the audience tonight
[31:03.680 -> 31:08.860] Like I always do thinking I had two hours then to spare so I could learn this thing and I'm going to go on and I'm going to kill the audience tonight like I always do. Thinking I had two hours then to spare so I could learn this thing.
[31:08.860 -> 31:13.720] They drag me into this room where it's like a reception for this pre-Grammy thing and
[31:13.720 -> 31:20.960] there's like 500 people and the record label literally wheeling me round, you know, like
[31:20.960 -> 31:25.700] the boss of MTV America, hey, nice to meet you, and I'm loving this, the boss of MTV America, hey nice to meet you, and I'm loving this, the boss of MTV
[31:25.700 -> 31:30.320] America, you know, VH1, oh nice to meet you, you know, it's like literally a
[31:30.320 -> 31:35.400] who's who, Aretha Franklin and her manager, nice to meet you. I've realised
[31:35.400 -> 31:39.520] two hours has gone by, I can't even remember what this bloody track starts
[31:39.520 -> 31:46.320] like, never mind finishes, so I literally like grab someone from the label, they've got
[31:46.320 -> 31:52.120] a cassette of the of the backing track, I go into the dressing room and I start I
[31:52.120 -> 31:57.160] played it once, twice, round and I just I'm just thinking there's no way out of
[31:57.160 -> 32:01.680] this, it doesn't make any sense, I'm not joining the dots here, I'm the guy who
[32:01.680 -> 32:05.920] rehearses for six weeks before one song's performed. It's
[32:05.920 -> 32:10.880] just like, what am I doing here? And I was trying to think, how do I get out of this?
[32:10.880 -> 32:16.560] And at the point I'm thinking, I need to just go. I can hear him introducing me on
[32:16.560 -> 32:23.160] the stage. And I realized that I've got to go through this now. And I just
[32:23.160 -> 32:25.400] thought the magic was gonna come to me
[32:25.400 -> 32:30.520] I just thought I've had so much luck over the years something's gonna help me
[32:30.520 -> 32:36.080] get through the next three minutes and of course everything was wrong I was
[32:36.080 -> 32:40.240] singing in a bit where I shouldn't have been singing and the music was playing
[32:40.240 -> 32:44.480] notes that it wasn't playing that my voice was singing it was just the worst
[32:44.480 -> 32:49.400] the worst three minutes I think of my whole life where you just
[32:49.400 -> 32:54.880] want the ground to swallow you up and also realizing that this is this is the
[32:54.880 -> 32:59.440] end there's no coming back from this there's there's no second performance to
[32:59.440 -> 33:06.860] launch yourself in America this was it This was what every artist wanted and I got it and this
[33:06.860 -> 33:10.620] is where I am with it. And I remember wandering off the stage and thinking
[33:10.620 -> 33:17.500] that's the end, that is it, I'm going home. It was very telling because the whole
[33:17.500 -> 33:22.260] day I'd been in New York, I'd minimum eight to twelve people around me, you
[33:22.260 -> 33:29.000] know, you're great, you're gonna be good tonight, you know great, let's get to know each other, let's exchange numbers. When
[33:29.000 -> 33:34.400] I walked off the stage there was nobody and I walked off the side of the stage
[33:34.400 -> 33:39.840] into the reception at the plaza, through the doors and walked all the way down
[33:39.840 -> 33:43.880] Fifth Avenue to my hotel and there was nobody with me and it was raining and it
[33:43.880 -> 33:48.360] was like that's the end of that. And what was that words of advice that you
[33:48.360 -> 33:52.160] remembered that your dad had given you at that moment? Well my dad always wanted me to
[33:52.160 -> 33:58.140] rehearse. The rehearsal for him was his only way of... because my dad was a
[33:58.140 -> 34:07.080] working man so you know he had like two jobs and his only way of relating work to what I did,
[34:07.080 -> 34:12.200] because it's not work what I do, was the rehearsal. So when those words come back
[34:12.200 -> 34:16.800] to me, you'd never do anything without rehearsal. That's why you need to
[34:16.800 -> 34:22.360] rehearse and I hadn't done any of it. So you're now in this period where the guy
[34:22.360 -> 34:28.640] who was a, who's become your rival Robbie, is having superstardom. You've
[34:28.640 -> 34:33.240] had this awful episode in America. You've come back home. Like I'm guessing at this
[34:33.240 -> 34:36.600] point if you've lost your record deal, you don't have a record deal, so you're not performing,
[34:36.600 -> 34:42.520] you're not working. You've lost everything that is kind of your North Star that you understand.
[34:42.520 -> 34:50.160] What was going on in your head at that point? Well I'll take it year by year because it went across about seven years
[34:50.160 -> 34:57.160] this did. So the first year I was blaming everybody else, the second year I was
[34:57.160 -> 35:04.000] blaming myself and the third year it was becoming real that that was the end.
[35:04.000 -> 35:06.760] There was no way I could ever see
[35:06.760 -> 35:11.760] myself recording or singing. I'd stopped singing completely, stopped playing on a
[35:11.760 -> 35:16.680] piano and and it was driving me crazy. Toby Davis- What's your day look like at this
[35:16.680 -> 35:21.240] point in your life? Ian Marber- So it was an interesting one because as my sort of career
[35:21.240 -> 35:27.000] life went down the toilet my personal life was on and up because we'd had two kids.
[35:27.000 -> 35:34.000] Life outside the studio was great. I'd do this thing where I hear this a lot where I'd say,
[35:34.000 -> 35:40.000] right, I'm going into the studio now everybody. And dad would go off to do his day's work and I'd literally sit in there
[35:40.000 -> 35:48.440] and I'd just be looking around the room thinking, what am I going gonna do? What could I do that would be useful to anything? And I'd sit in there and I'd
[35:48.440 -> 35:52.240] look at the clock and I'd come out at four and go anyway that was a good day
[35:52.240 -> 35:58.840] and I'd act this day of being in the studio pretending I was doing so I was
[35:58.840 -> 36:05.000] doing nothing. Some days just sort of watching the piano, thinking,
[36:05.000 -> 36:07.880] I used to write big hits on that thing.
[36:07.880 -> 36:09.960] Slowly going insane, really.
[36:09.960 -> 36:10.800] Really? Yeah.
[36:10.800 -> 36:11.640] Felt that bad?
[36:11.640 -> 36:14.000] Oh, it was really dark.
[36:19.200 -> 36:21.480] As a person with a very deep voice,
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[37:18.520 -> 37:23.880] Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies
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[39:31.760 -> 39:37.520] So you were in this beautiful house, you'd had all this great success, but you
[39:37.520 -> 39:42.520] were totally empty at this point. Because I wanted to make music, you know, I love
[39:42.520 -> 39:49.000] music so much and I wasn't even listening to music at that time. I really detached myself from music.
[39:49.000 -> 39:53.000] So what did the piano represent for you then at that moment? You say you looked at it and thought...
[39:53.000 -> 39:56.000] Well the piano was the enemy because the piano was...
[39:56.000 -> 40:00.000] Remember the piano is the vein to all things good.
[40:00.000 -> 40:04.000] Because when I sit at the piano, magic happens, you know.
[40:04.000 -> 40:06.160] Because this song that I'm making
[40:06.160 -> 40:11.200] today will go on a record and people will be singing it in stadiums and piano is a good
[40:11.200 -> 40:16.960] place. Now it wasn't. I couldn't even play it properly. It was just like a different
[40:16.960 -> 40:19.360] language at that point.
[40:19.360 -> 40:25.000] But what surprises me about that is almost like the fragility of your confidence, you Yr hyn sy'n fy ymdrechu ynghylch hynny yw'r ffrigiliaeth o'ch hyder.
[40:25.000 -> 40:30.000] Oherwydd, i'r peth i'r hyn i'w ddweud,
[40:30.000 -> 40:33.000] rydych chi wedi adeiladu eich hyder ar ddiddorol eithaf gwych.
[40:33.000 -> 40:35.000] Rydych chi wedi gwneud eich 10,000 o anawr,
[40:35.000 -> 40:38.000] rydych chi wedi ymstod ar y stage, rydych chi wedi gweld y cyhoedd,
[40:38.000 -> 40:41.000] yna rydych chi wedi cael rhywun sydd wedi gwblhau eich hyder
[40:41.000 -> 40:43.000] yn y byd pop cymeradol,
[40:43.000 -> 40:49.040] ond yna rydych chi wedi cael llawer o ddiddorol eto sy'n dweud y gallwch wneud hyn. confidence in the world of commercial pop. But then you've got lots of evidence again that says you can do this stuff and I'm just really intrigued as
[40:49.040 -> 40:57.720] to why that one incident, as horrific as it sounds, was able to dismantle all the
[40:57.720 -> 41:03.480] evidence that you'd accumulated prior to this. It defeated me, my mind left me
[41:03.480 -> 41:07.280] completely and it's a funny thing, creativity,
[41:07.280 -> 41:12.080] and it is delicate, it is very delicate. And it's why I said earlier about the managers,
[41:12.080 -> 41:18.720] if you're a manager of somebody or you're a partner of somebody who's creative, it's
[41:18.720 -> 41:26.000] just like you've got to be so careful around them because that line of feeling confident about what you're doing
[41:26.000 -> 41:30.640] it's the only way you can create. I just don't believe someone who
[41:30.640 -> 41:35.080] doubts themselves can create wholeheartedly. It just doesn't work
[41:35.080 -> 41:40.360] without that belief. So what was the thing then that derailed you so much in
[41:40.360 -> 41:43.960] that period? Was it that for the first time in your whole life you had failure
[41:43.960 -> 41:49.040] as a musician? Was it the success of Robbie or was it the fact that, I mean
[41:49.040 -> 41:54.800] I remember this period, like the public reveling in it, people enjoying the
[41:54.800 -> 41:57.660] claps of someone who had been such a huge star?
[41:57.660 -> 42:04.200] The shaming was hard because it's a very public thing. It made going out very hard
[42:04.200 -> 42:06.160] because people would say things.
[42:06.160 -> 42:12.360] And soon as that happens, that's now three months of being at home without leaving. That's what it
[42:12.360 -> 42:19.160] would be for me because it was just so excruciating to, you just wanted to crawl into a hole. And
[42:19.160 -> 42:25.960] sort of mentally for me, the one thing that I was being very clever with is that I was putting
[42:25.960 -> 42:31.340] weight on and the more weight I put on the less people recognised me which meant people
[42:31.340 -> 42:39.800] weren't saying things. So I went through this whole period then of being unhappily overweight
[42:39.800 -> 42:46.000] but kind of happy because it was doing something for me. Yeah, and I'd killed the pop star.
[42:46.000 -> 42:51.560] So it was like I'd controlled something for the first time in ages.
[42:51.560 -> 42:58.680] So was it a relationship with food thing or was it an issue with a body image thing?
[42:58.680 -> 43:07.000] I think it all spurred from the shaming. I think it all came from that. I wanted to go out but I
[43:07.000 -> 43:11.100] didn't want to go out because of the thing you know and also we were you know
[43:11.100 -> 43:15.220] the kids were going to school and things and I wanted to go to school and be
[43:15.220 -> 43:21.100] part of the football practices and all these things and as I was I couldn't do
[43:21.100 -> 43:25.600] that and so this really answered a whole heap of questions for me
[43:25.600 -> 43:30.600] and I felt incredibly proud of myself at the time I thought this is fantastic you know
[43:30.600 -> 43:39.040] I've hidden. But can we I mean that's such a powerful word that shame and I think it's
[43:39.040 -> 43:50.400] worth exploring it because I think that's what like it comes loaded with so much fear. Yeah. You know like even as you're saying it to me, it feels quite a foreboding thought.
[43:50.400 -> 43:54.000] What was it that was causing you shame?
[43:54.000 -> 43:59.080] We were in an era of media where there was no hold barred.
[43:59.080 -> 44:07.280] You could do anything, say anything about anybody. And I specifically remember a few headlines that
[44:07.280 -> 44:14.320] were in newspapers at the time. Relight my fryer, back for pod and there'd be pictures
[44:14.320 -> 44:19.040] of me overweight, you know, coming out of a pub or something. But the big thing was
[44:19.040 -> 44:29.480] the Robbie success because the Robbie success was like Channel 5 made a documentary on it and all that and of course I saw it all and watched it all when Rob went on the
[44:29.480 -> 44:34.040] Brits and you know said I was the talent all those things I watched them all that
[44:34.040 -> 44:38.360] was the shame for me it was just like you're just like the butt of a joke and
[44:38.360 -> 44:44.360] Rob talked about it years later and he actually said that it became
[44:44.360 -> 44:46.240] something where it wasn't me it
[44:46.240 -> 44:50.480] was just a great way of if he was in a room and he wanted to make them all laugh
[44:50.480 -> 44:54.440] he'd make a joke about me. He said I'd get a reaction he said it wasn't about you
[44:54.440 -> 44:57.400] it's just the fact that I was nervous and I wanted to get this room on my side
[44:57.400 -> 45:01.960] and you were the thing I reached for when we started working together again
[45:01.960 -> 45:06.480] in 2005 which was when the band sort of reformed,
[45:06.480 -> 45:12.480] we all had this hesitance because, you know, I'm just telling you my story, everyone had
[45:12.480 -> 45:18.240] a story around that time and maybe some of them don't sound as dramatic as mine did,
[45:18.240 -> 45:23.240] but everyone went through something in those years off. And so we all came back with a
[45:23.240 -> 45:26.300] real hesitancy and a sort of like,
[45:26.300 -> 45:30.680] you know, we don't want to put our hands too close to this fire, you know, and it
[45:30.680 -> 45:35.280] was good that we did. We second-guessed a lot of things and... Did you discuss it?
[45:35.280 -> 45:39.560] And have a bit of sort of group therapy? Very much so. How useful was that? We discussed...
[45:39.560 -> 45:47.000] In that first year we talked more than we'd ever talked in the 90s, as people, as brothers, as humans.
[45:47.000 -> 45:57.000] So what was like the most telling observation that you heard from your bandmates during that time that you still hold on to today?
[45:57.000 -> 46:09.000] Well a band is an interesting thing because I've just been with Mark and Howard for two weeks and it's a very... it's an interesting... because you know I've known those guys longer than I've
[46:09.000 -> 46:14.320] known my wife. You know we've got a very very close bond together. I didn't really
[46:14.320 -> 46:19.760] want to join a band in the 90s. I didn't really want to... I enjoyed it but I was
[46:19.760 -> 46:26.520] always looking forward to going solo. When I came back to the band in 2005, I really felt like
[46:26.520 -> 46:32.060] I was in a band for the first time. I'd never really been in the band the first time round.
[46:32.060 -> 46:38.000] When I came back, I felt the strength of other people who were like me. You know, we've all
[46:38.000 -> 46:44.640] been through something and only us know how it feels like. And it felt so strong. So if
[46:44.640 -> 46:46.000] you fast forward a few months, we stood on a stage together and I'm looking down the us know how it feels like and it felt so
[46:43.120 -> 46:48.880] strong. So if you fast forward a few
[46:46.000 -> 46:50.160] months, we stood on a stage together and
[46:48.880 -> 46:52.840] I'm looking down the line and I'm like
[46:50.160 -> 46:57.240] wow this is just the best thing ever.
[46:52.840 -> 46:59.160] But it just felt so healing and so safe.
[46:57.240 -> 47:02.160] It felt like the first time I'd been in a
[46:59.160 -> 47:04.680] safe place for a long time. See the very
[47:02.160 -> 47:05.760] term there
[47:02.800 -> 47:08.160] that you described about feeling safe, I find
[47:05.760 -> 47:11.480] significant. I mean we've had lots of
[47:08.160 -> 47:14.000] leaders on this podcast that have spoken
[47:11.480 -> 47:16.800] about the importance of psychological
[47:14.000 -> 47:19.440] safety, to be create a space where people
[47:16.800 -> 47:21.440] can make mistakes, make cock-ups, admit
[47:19.440 -> 47:23.200] errors without feeling you're going to be
[47:21.440 -> 47:25.640] castigated or made to look silly for it.
[47:23.200 -> 47:28.280] Yeah. And I appreciate it wasn't just you, it was your bandmates as well. How did you
[47:28.280 -> 47:34.080] go about creating an environment where you felt that word safe that you've used a few times?
[47:34.080 -> 47:52.000] It wasn't forced, interestingly. It wasn't forced at all. One of our big leaders, who was a silent leader in the 90s, but he became more of a leader of us when we came back as a group, was Jason.
[47:52.000 -> 47:59.000] He was one of five brothers, so he was used to the family pyramid, and a band is a family pyramid.
[47:59.000 -> 48:11.440] And as one leaves, or one leaves the room, you all reshuffle position, it's very interesting. He was wise, he told us a few things and a few situations appeared and he
[48:11.440 -> 48:16.800] resolved them and he was someone we all came to look up to a lot. Me especially
[48:16.800 -> 48:20.600] has been the one who was always leading, I always felt that pressure of I've got
[48:20.600 -> 48:27.000] to look like I know what I'm doing even though I don't know what I'm doing, you know, it was shared all of a sudden.
[48:27.000 -> 48:36.000] And also, for me, valuing the people around us then as well. We all said when we got back together, right, let's lose all dickheads this time.
[48:36.000 -> 48:45.920] Let's just have the good people back. And we did. We got all the good people back and they were valued as well we brought them into our circle it wasn't
[48:45.920 -> 48:52.160] us and them it was it was us and that's where we really started going up the
[48:52.160 -> 48:56.640] gigs were getting bigger it was no surprise that it was no surprise that it
[48:56.640 -> 49:00.960] was good what we were doing and it was and it was real you know those first
[49:00.960 -> 49:06.000] sort of six years they were just sublime you know up to first sort of six years, they were just sublime, you know, up to Robbie coming back,
[49:06.000 -> 49:12.800] you know, the perfect end to the story. Rob comes home, the best years of any of the years in the
[49:12.800 -> 49:17.440] band were those years. And would they have been the best years if you hadn't had to go through
[49:17.440 -> 49:22.560] what you went through? I guess the question is, were you able to make peace with the trauma of
[49:22.560 -> 49:30.000] that really difficult time? I think so, I think so, yeah. You know, the rise back's been so worth it. It was worth
[49:30.000 -> 49:35.200] those years of pain because the person that comes out of the other end of it
[49:35.200 -> 49:40.480] is, I think, a better person, a nicer person to be around, a nicer person
[49:40.480 -> 49:45.260] to be in a band with, a nicer person to be married with or be a father to. It's
[49:45.260 -> 49:49.140] just been the making of me, those horrible, horrible years.
[49:49.140 -> 49:53.340] And for people who are still in the difficult place at the moment and maybe struggling with
[49:53.340 -> 49:58.100] their self-worth and their own confidence, the one thing we haven't told, the one part
[49:58.100 -> 50:02.140] of the story we haven't touched on is how you went from taking the mirrors down in your
[50:02.140 -> 50:09.640] house because your self-loathing was so great, to being able to be back on stage with the band. Like, for someone listening to this, what
[50:09.640 -> 50:13.200] was your first step to recovery that could perhaps be theirs?
[50:13.200 -> 50:18.640] A lot of these roads we're talking about were never sort of parallel, they seemed to happen
[50:18.640 -> 50:24.040] at different times, it was almost like phases I was going through in those years where I
[50:24.040 -> 50:25.840] wasn't on the screen and on a stage.
[50:26.480 -> 50:32.960] The non-stop eating thing was towards the end of that. I really think the thing that led me out of
[50:32.960 -> 50:40.720] that was coming back into our band again because all of a sudden I couldn't do this anymore because
[50:40.720 -> 50:46.160] I had a purpose again and I also knew I'm not meant to be this guy. I'm
[50:46.160 -> 50:52.360] better than this. I need to sort this out. I was a big smoker at the time as well. I
[50:52.360 -> 50:57.440] was like really like a lot of and I was and almost that was one of the hardest
[50:57.440 -> 51:02.120] things to get over. The cigarettes were so tricky but I knew I had people I had
[51:02.120 -> 51:06.680] to deliver for. I couldn't carry on with this. And so that
[51:06.680 -> 51:10.320] was a big part of me sort of really putting that to bed.
[51:10.320 -> 51:11.920] Do you remember the first thing that you did?
[51:11.920 -> 51:15.360] Yeah, I went for a run. That's the first thing I did.
[51:15.360 -> 51:16.600] With all the weight and while smoking?
[51:16.600 -> 51:26.840] Yeah. I hadn't done exercise in such a long time. And I have to say exercise is so much a part of my everyday
[51:27.400 -> 51:35.040] I'm a different songwriter when I exercise. I'm just a different person. I cannot advocate it enough of how
[51:35.800 -> 51:41.800] Much good you get from it, but the first run I did I was so out of shape. I was so
[51:43.240 -> 51:47.000] Hilariously big at the time that I shouldn't have been
[51:47.000 -> 51:53.040] running to start with but it felt brilliant to run it felt brilliant to
[51:53.040 -> 51:58.680] move to feel air going across my face for me knees to be lifted it just felt
[51:58.680 -> 52:03.640] so ridiculous and funny is that I just remember giggling to myself walking back
[52:03.640 -> 52:08.020] thinking I've got a lot to do here but you know what it's alright because I'm on the I'm on the
[52:08.020 -> 52:13.200] road now you know I've put the shoes on for the first time turned up and I think
[52:13.200 -> 52:19.800] that once I'd done that I felt so good instantly a minute later felt so good I
[52:19.800 -> 52:25.600] thought well I've got to do this again tomorrow. And I did. I run every day for the next two years.
[52:25.600 -> 52:32.000] And slowly this guy disappeared in my trail, in the dust.
[52:32.000 -> 52:34.000] Did you have therapy and stuff?
[52:34.000 -> 52:35.000] I didn't, you know.
[52:35.000 -> 52:35.500] Really?
[52:35.500 -> 52:39.600] No, I didn't. I didn't. Music was the place I was turning to.
[52:39.600 -> 52:44.600] And what about your wife and children at this time, Gary? Because you made the comment there about that
[52:44.600 -> 52:49.480] you felt you had that sense of purpose again, getting back on stage. What
[52:49.480 -> 52:53.440] difference did they see in you as a partner and as a parent?
[52:53.440 -> 53:00.560] Oh my wife was so happy when she saw me back on the stage again. Because she knows how
[53:00.560 -> 53:05.000] happy I am to do that and be involved in music.
[53:05.800 -> 53:07.160] She has this habit, she does.
[53:07.160 -> 53:10.960] So when she first came to watch a live show,
[53:10.960 -> 53:12.880] she doesn't sit in the audience.
[53:12.880 -> 53:16.320] She sits by the monitor man, the guy that does.
[53:16.320 -> 53:20.720] So I have ear things in when I, they're called in-ear monitors
[53:20.720 -> 53:24.840] and in those monitors, I get my own private mix.
[53:24.840 -> 53:26.360] So I get the mix no one else
[53:26.360 -> 53:31.000] hears, not the band, I get my own mix where my voice is loud, I have the
[53:31.000 -> 53:35.720] guitars panned one way, the drums in the middle, the keyboards over here and she
[53:35.720 -> 53:41.320] loves to sit listening to my mix. So she's the only one experiencing what I'm
[53:41.320 -> 53:46.060] experiencing and yeah she loved it she's just so proud
[53:46.060 -> 53:51.760] and still is but but at that period she she knew it's what I needed.
[53:51.760 -> 53:56.020] Do you mind me asking what what she did for you in the dark days for people who are
[53:56.020 -> 53:59.400] listening to this and maybe they are a partner of someone who's struggling what
[53:59.400 -> 54:03.640] what was the thing she did to help? Yeah she was amazing you know because she
[54:03.640 -> 54:08.400] never grilled me she never pressed me about anything. She probably knew I was doing
[54:08.400 -> 54:12.640] nothing in the studio all day, but she never, she was never confrontational
[54:12.640 -> 54:16.880] about any of it. No, no, nothing at all. Even now though, you know,
[54:16.880 -> 54:20.480] this is the thing with music, is that even when you're not doing it, it takes
[54:20.480 -> 54:24.960] up your mind, is that I can be distant, you know, and that's the only point she'd
[54:24.960 -> 54:28.560] ever go, hey, put that phone down now now, come on get in here. Why distant?
[54:28.560 -> 54:34.360] Because music takes so much, it's not like coming home and putting a briefcase
[54:34.360 -> 54:39.440] under the desk and not thinking about work till the next day, music follows you
[54:39.440 -> 54:50.520] around, you know, so as I'm having dinner I'm thinking, that's the end of that line, it's just so, it's so annoying for everyone else. But creativity, it doesn't happen
[54:50.520 -> 54:54.120] between 11 and 4 in the afternoon, it just happens when it wants to happen. So
[54:54.120 -> 54:58.720] often for me it can be in the middle of a holiday or you know, it can just
[54:58.720 -> 55:07.560] happen at the worst times. Wow, and so what advice would you give to anybody that maybe have a partner or a
[55:07.560 -> 55:14.680] friend that's struggling? Like what really helped you to to eventually come
[55:14.680 -> 55:19.440] through it? I don't think there is a one thing but the only thing I would say is
[55:19.440 -> 55:28.120] that, and it's very simple this, but it's just be nice to each other Just try and be nice to each other because if you really do that
[55:29.400 -> 55:37.380] Things are great, you know, of course, it's impossible to always have that but like if you if you go into the day
[55:38.360 -> 55:40.360] saying something nice or I
[55:40.880 -> 55:45.480] Just think it's a very simple thing. It is just like support who you with it's great
[55:45.480 -> 55:48.720] And you know you needed her in those difficult times for you
[55:48.720 -> 55:54.180] And I know that she would have needed you after the yeah very sad loss of your daughter Poppy
[55:54.180 -> 55:57.200] you mind talking about that no no just for a moment because um
[55:58.480 -> 56:03.440] It's the most moving moment of the of the stage show. Yeah that we came to watch and you know you
[56:07.600 -> 56:13.640] of the stage show that we came to watch and you know you really are able to make the audience feel how you were feeling at that time. What was the process that you went through to be
[56:13.640 -> 56:19.800] able to write that incredible song about her and about the whole period?
[56:19.800 -> 56:30.620] Well I'm always desperate to put things into music because like I said earlier my therapy is always music and also you know for anyone who's been through what
[56:30.620 -> 56:35.300] we went from by the way over the years I've realized it's so common it really
[56:35.300 -> 56:41.520] is it's tragically more common than you think is that you have so little you
[56:41.520 -> 56:49.840] have so little you don't have any, you don't have any memories, you don't have any photographs, very few photographs, you have so little so you try and make as
[56:49.840 -> 56:55.040] much out of what you've got as possible and the music was such a big, because I
[56:55.040 -> 57:00.000] look back actually at that whole album and that's her in there captured forever
[57:00.000 -> 57:10.000] and so for me when I go out every night on a stage and say that again, it's an extension of what she gave me in that brief time.
[57:10.000 -> 57:20.000] That's what that period's been like for me. It's about adding to things that we never got the chance to experience.
[57:20.000 -> 57:26.080] And the more I can do that, the more I can either put it into music or talk about it or it gives
[57:26.080 -> 57:27.520] more light to her.
[57:27.520 -> 57:33.600] Yeah, that lyric, fly high and let me go, it's kind of, I mean it's moving but it's
[57:33.600 -> 57:37.480] painful at the same time isn't it? That message to her.
[57:37.480 -> 57:42.920] And I didn't want it to be painful, I wanted it to feel, because there's parts of it that
[57:42.920 -> 57:49.080] isn't painful, there's the good things that an experience like that leaves is as good as the bad.
[57:49.080 -> 57:50.080] And what are they?
[57:50.080 -> 57:54.480] Definitely a togetherness, because one thing me and my wife were told when that
[57:54.480 -> 57:58.720] happened, because we did some grief therapy after that, is that some
[57:58.720 -> 58:07.200] crazy figure like 97% of couples split up after that, which you can understand, but it hasn't been like
[58:07.200 -> 58:12.520] that for us, it's actually brought us closer. It's amazing what it does to you as a person.
[58:12.520 -> 58:17.840] The adversity is a terrible thing to go through at the time, but you do find positives in
[58:17.840 -> 58:18.840] it.
[58:18.840 -> 58:21.680] Toby I'm put on honour to be able to sing her song
[58:21.680 -> 58:28.760] in front of those, I mean that must be for you, what a moment. And it's also a moment when I do just a music show and it's just a song in
[58:28.760 -> 58:34.160] the set, people are jumping up and down to that song, it's a massive reaction and
[58:34.160 -> 58:38.440] you play it late in the evening you know and it's just, I look out and go there's
[58:38.440 -> 58:42.920] the light right there, it's so beautiful, really is. I've really enjoyed this
[58:42.920 -> 58:45.240] conversation, I get a real sense of
[58:45.240 -> 58:49.000] like a freedom now because you know you've been through all these things,
[58:49.000 -> 58:52.520] you've learned from all these things. It's almost like it does create that suit of
[58:52.520 -> 58:56.000] armour that, well what can affect me? Because look at what's come my way and
[58:56.000 -> 59:00.320] yet here I am still standing, still performing, still a dad, a husband. I
[59:00.320 -> 59:04.200] suppose my question really, before we move on to the final quickfire questions,
[59:04.200 -> 59:05.660] is what's
[59:05.660 -> 59:06.820] it all for now?
[59:06.820 -> 59:12.700] Like you've had a great career, you've made your money, you've had your children, wonderful.
[59:12.700 -> 59:14.220] There's so much always going on with you.
[59:14.220 -> 59:19.260] I always see like seven or eight Gary Barlow projects happening.
[59:19.260 -> 59:20.740] Why are you always so busy?
[59:20.740 -> 59:21.740] I love it though.
[59:21.740 -> 59:22.740] Do you?
[59:22.740 -> 59:23.740] I love it so much.
[59:23.740 -> 59:24.740] I do.
[59:24.740 -> 59:25.080] What's there not to love? It's
[59:25.080 -> 59:28.360] great. Have you ever tried to take a, I remember I heard you once being interviewed and you
[59:28.360 -> 59:31.080] said I'm going to try and take a year out, did that ever happen? I did though, I did
[59:31.080 -> 59:37.120] do a year out, Covid. It was before Covid, that doesn't count. But even then you were
[59:37.120 -> 59:41.400] doing those sessions weren't you, where I saw you doing the online stuff where you had
[59:41.400 -> 59:45.780] other artists. Yeah, I love it so much. This is the good stuff now, you
[59:45.780 -> 59:50.980] know, this is the stuff where you get to say no to things, where you decide what you want
[59:50.980 -> 59:55.620] to do. It's brilliant. Do you leave room for the things that you really want to do? Because
[59:55.620 -> 59:58.660] I don't want to sound morbid, but you never know what's around the corner. Yeah. Do you
[59:58.660 -> 01:00:03.820] make sure that you carve that out now? I think so. Yeah, it's taken me a... it's funny when
[01:00:03.820 -> 01:00:05.760] I meet other artists, whether you
[01:00:05.760 -> 01:00:10.480] know you're on a concert or something, whenever you meet artists, the first thing everyone
[01:00:10.480 -> 01:00:16.080] always says is, what about your balance between work and home, is it good? It's always one
[01:00:16.080 -> 01:00:20.760] of the first things that comes up and I've definitely got it wrong over the years but
[01:00:20.760 -> 01:00:27.560] I feel like I'm getting it right at last at this point. I'm
[01:00:23.720 -> 01:00:29.000] definitely not as hard on myself as I
[01:00:27.560 -> 01:00:31.160] used to be. I'm definitely not as
[01:00:29.000 -> 01:00:32.640] serious as I used to be. I think you've
[01:00:31.160 -> 01:00:34.200] got to have a humor with what you're
[01:00:32.640 -> 01:00:37.480] doing. I've definitely taken the stress
[01:00:34.200 -> 01:00:39.720] out of my world and it's just left all
[01:00:37.480 -> 01:00:42.240] the enjoyment which is lovely. Toby Reed So how
[01:00:39.720 -> 01:00:43.880] do you do it? I'm desperate to know that for
[01:00:42.240 -> 01:00:46.000] myself, for the selfish point of view. So
[01:00:43.880 -> 01:00:47.080] tell us like
[01:00:44.800 -> 01:00:49.280] your criteria of how you make a decision
[01:00:47.080 -> 01:00:52.840] to go I'll do that but I won't do that
[01:00:49.280 -> 01:00:55.920] what's... Okay I'll make it very simple
[01:00:52.840 -> 01:00:58.400] here I look at something and think
[01:00:55.920 -> 01:01:01.480] that's a pain in the ass that it's
[01:00:58.400 -> 01:01:03.400] gonna need this this this that you know
[01:01:01.480 -> 01:01:05.440] when you look at, you're like, we want you to make a musical. Oh, that's
[01:01:05.440 -> 01:01:12.840] four years, it's works, oh no. This, oh, 45 minutes, oh yeah, I'll do that. It's like,
[01:01:12.840 -> 01:01:17.680] it's, if the level of pain in the arse is here, oh, someone else can do that.
[01:01:17.680 -> 01:01:24.240] There you go. I always say, it has to fit into three things, profit, passion or purpose.
[01:01:24.240 -> 01:01:25.280] I think if it fits into one of
[01:01:25.280 -> 01:01:28.840] those three things and you can consider it but other than that... Yeah, yeah, but the
[01:01:28.840 -> 01:01:33.240] purpose thing is the bit, definitely a big one for me. What's yours? Well I think
[01:01:33.240 -> 01:01:39.040] I've tried to always never do anything that isn't related to music. So for
[01:01:39.040 -> 01:01:42.860] instance like I won't be on a quiz show, it's not related to music that is. So
[01:01:42.860 -> 01:01:46.400] whenever I've done TV things or whatever,
[01:01:46.400 -> 01:01:52.160] as long as it's rooted in music, then I probably know what I'm talking about. This whole wine
[01:01:52.160 -> 01:01:56.580] escapade's been hilarious for me because I love wine, by the way. But when we started
[01:01:56.580 -> 01:02:02.960] talking about making my own wine, it was just like, you know, 100 bottles, couple of me
[01:02:02.960 -> 01:02:06.320] mates have a case each and I have a bit for Christmas
[01:02:06.320 -> 01:02:11.080] and it's just all a bit of a laugh. I think we're approaching 800,000 bottles of wine
[01:02:11.080 -> 01:02:16.100] we've sold now and it's just like, this has got out of hand because it was never meant
[01:02:16.100 -> 01:02:21.000] to be this. But there's no seriousness of like, we've got to make this quota, we've
[01:02:21.000 -> 01:02:31.700] got to achieve this. It's not come from that. it's come from a passion of a hobby, you know, you can watch a concert and drink a nice glass of wine, it's somewhere
[01:02:31.700 -> 01:02:35.740] in there is a relationship to what I do and who I am and my hobbies.
[01:02:35.740 -> 01:02:36.740] So authenticity.
[01:02:36.740 -> 01:02:37.740] Authenticity.
[01:02:37.740 -> 01:02:38.740] Needs to be at the centre of it.
[01:02:38.740 -> 01:02:39.740] Yeah.
[01:02:39.740 -> 01:02:40.740] Right, ready for some quickfire questions?
[01:02:40.740 -> 01:02:41.740] Uh oh, yeah.
[01:02:41.740 -> 01:02:46.040] The three non-negotiable behavi behaviors that you and the people around you should
[01:02:46.040 -> 01:02:51.000] be buying into? Well, I think the thing I talked about earlier about being nice to one
[01:02:51.000 -> 01:02:57.480] another is definitely a big thing and supportive as well. And that's been a journey for you
[01:02:57.480 -> 01:03:05.800] from the early days? Yeah, and also I have a team around me as well. So so you know, music team and you like being supportive and
[01:03:05.800 -> 01:03:12.960] embracing, here we go, other people's ideas, imagine that in the 90s. I'm big on
[01:03:12.960 -> 01:03:18.520] that, I love people coming up with ideas and seeing their work for them come to
[01:03:18.520 -> 01:03:24.320] life is nearly as good as seeing my own ideas come to life. But yeah, working as a
[01:03:24.320 -> 01:03:25.200] team, big one.
[01:03:25.200 -> 01:03:26.200] Toby Richardson Second one.
[01:03:26.200 -> 01:03:27.200] Steve Marr So have I given you two or three?
[01:03:27.200 -> 01:03:28.200] Toby Richardson I think that was one.
[01:03:28.200 -> 01:03:31.960] Steve Marr Was that one? Was it? Yeah, the team thing though,
[01:03:31.960 -> 01:03:32.960] that's a big one.
[01:03:32.960 -> 01:03:33.960] Toby Richardson Okay, I'll give you a second, yeah.
[01:03:33.960 -> 01:03:36.480] Steve Marr Yeah, that's a big one because the team thing
[01:03:36.480 -> 01:03:41.600] has been massive for me in the last sort of 16 years. Let me do another one. Well, the
[01:03:41.600 -> 01:03:42.600] fun.
[01:03:42.600 -> 01:03:43.600] Toby Richardson Yeah.
[01:03:43.600 -> 01:03:46.280] Steve Marr Because the thing is with any of this is that I try
[01:03:46.280 -> 01:03:50.440] and always remind everybody around me is that we're in the entertainment industry. It's
[01:03:50.440 -> 01:03:54.920] got to be fun, right? If it's starting to feel like we're pulling teeth, we should probably
[01:03:54.920 -> 01:03:56.160] start what we're doing, you know?
[01:03:56.160 -> 01:04:00.120] And you know what I love about those three? If we'd have gone to a 21 year old Gary Barlow
[01:04:00.120 -> 01:04:05.480] and said three non-negotiables fun yeah teamwork and kindness probably wouldn't
[01:04:05.480 -> 01:04:10.520] have existed yeah brilliant what's your biggest weakness and your greatest
[01:04:10.520 -> 01:04:16.920] strength I think my greatest strength is experience I think that I've definitely
[01:04:16.920 -> 01:04:22.160] put my hours in over the years and that's not being I'm stating a fact here
[01:04:22.160 -> 01:04:27.760] I have I've been on thousands of hours on stages, millions of
[01:04:27.760 -> 01:04:31.600] hours in studios, you know, I've definitely put, I think experience is a
[01:04:31.600 -> 01:04:36.520] real strength. I think if you're interested in something, do it and then
[01:04:36.520 -> 01:04:40.520] when you've done it, do it again and keep doing it because at some point then it's
[01:04:40.520 -> 01:04:46.720] gonna just be like a muscle and work for you. Weakness, let me have a
[01:04:46.720 -> 01:04:53.640] think about this for a second. I do still take some things too seriously and I
[01:04:53.640 -> 01:04:59.280] have to remind myself of some of those things we just listed, but less so
[01:04:59.280 -> 01:05:04.360] nowadays. That's probably the, you know, taking things too seriously is always
[01:05:04.360 -> 01:05:05.520] there on
[01:05:05.520 -> 01:05:11.040] my shoulder somewhere. Where do you think that comes from? I think it comes from the
[01:05:11.040 -> 01:05:15.880] perfectionism which I've tried to lose over the years because of course we all
[01:05:15.880 -> 01:05:20.320] know nothing's perfect but it's hard in music. I always look at Elton John as a
[01:05:20.320 -> 01:05:25.760] perfectionist. He is someone who is completely obsessed by music. I mean, you
[01:05:25.760 -> 01:05:29.520] know, he's on a whole other level to me, you know, all he wants to talk is music
[01:05:29.520 -> 01:05:36.600] and football. But it's still, you know, at his age where he should be, you know,
[01:05:36.600 -> 01:05:42.000] just basically having a good time, he is still listening to as much music, you
[01:05:42.000 -> 01:05:50.400] know, as I think I've got to the end of a good year and I've done 150 gigs, I look and Elton's done 250. I mean, he just puts us all to shame.
[01:05:50.400 -> 01:05:55.280] The perfectionism is a, definitely still a weakness for me.
[01:05:55.280 -> 01:05:58.040] Your biggest mistake and what you learned from it?
[01:05:58.040 -> 01:06:04.160] Well, I think my biggest mistake comes from the Clive Davies series, not trusting my,
[01:06:04.160 -> 01:06:05.760] the small man inies series, not
[01:06:02.520 -> 01:06:07.880] trusting my, the small man in a voice because
[01:06:05.760 -> 01:06:11.240] that's who I was then and I should have
[01:06:07.880 -> 01:06:14.000] trusted all those years I'd done what I'd
[01:06:11.240 -> 01:06:17.520] done because it led to such a catastrophic
[01:06:14.000 -> 01:06:19.600] turn of events that it possibly could
[01:06:17.520 -> 01:06:21.840] have been, it could have gone a different
[01:06:19.600 -> 01:06:24.240] way that day. So I didn't listen to my
[01:06:21.840 -> 01:06:26.160] gut instincts and I've never ever not
[01:06:24.240 -> 01:06:28.480] done that again. If you could go back to one moment of your life what would it be and
[01:06:28.480 -> 01:06:36.840] why? If I could go back, you know I'd put myself somewhere in that period of the
[01:06:36.840 -> 01:06:41.520] early noughties because I'd love my kids to be young again, would give anything
[01:06:41.520 -> 01:06:46.000] for our kids to be little again. I felt like I could have
[01:06:46.000 -> 01:06:50.480] got more out of those years than I did. I was sidetracked with what was going on
[01:06:50.480 -> 01:06:56.260] in my life. It's the only regret I have in all that time was I could I could
[01:06:56.260 -> 01:07:02.800] have been around more as a dad than I was. The final question, your last message
[01:07:02.800 -> 01:07:07.400] really for people that have listened to this fascinating conversation your I know you don't like giving advice
[01:07:07.400 -> 01:07:09.600] So your own learnings you're too modest for that
[01:07:09.600 -> 01:07:14.640] But this is your kind of what you'd love to leave ringing in people's ears your one golden rule
[01:07:15.080 -> 01:07:20.840] For for a high-performance life. I think it's finding what really gets you excited
[01:07:21.480 -> 01:07:25.720] Just embrace it. Don't care what anyone thinks about, you know,
[01:07:25.720 -> 01:07:32.240] it's just like if it lights your day up, then just jump inside it and enjoy it.
[01:07:32.240 -> 01:07:38.720] I've found this with music over the years, there's... to do the bit I love, there's all
[01:07:38.720 -> 01:07:42.880] this bullshit around it, which you've got to do as well. That's part and parcel, I've
[01:07:42.880 -> 01:07:49.600] come to terms with that over the years, but there's so many things to take you away from music. Don't
[01:07:49.600 -> 01:07:55.600] let it, stay in there, enjoy it and get as much out of it as you can, because I'm a
[01:07:55.600 -> 01:07:59.920] better person at the end of the day when I've been in the middle of that bright
[01:07:59.920 -> 01:08:05.520] light. I just, I just, it's such a love of my music. So whatever you love, get in there.
[01:08:05.520 -> 01:08:11.760] Love that. Gary, thank you so much for that conversation. I just think it's so easy when
[01:08:11.760 -> 01:08:15.360] you're in the moment to think I don't want all of this difficult stuff, I don't want the negativity,
[01:08:15.360 -> 01:08:19.800] I don't want the challenge, but look what it's given you. Look at the freedom, the experience,
[01:08:19.800 -> 01:08:26.960] the learning, the wisdom that you now carry to really enjoy every minute of every day.
[01:08:24.880 -> 01:08:28.560] Like, many people never get to that
[01:08:26.960 -> 01:08:31.040] point. So I'm so pleased for you. Yeah. Thank
[01:08:28.560 -> 01:08:35.040] you, thank you. I think I'm there.
[01:08:31.040 -> 01:08:35.040] Damian, Jake, that is a life lived.
[01:08:38.840 -> 01:08:46.000] Incredible, I think somebody that's
[01:08:42.480 -> 01:08:46.360] started out learning his craft. I love that, I
[01:08:46.360 -> 01:08:50.200] remember reading an American author called Daniel Coyle spoke about with your
[01:08:50.200 -> 01:08:55.520] children look for that mouth open moment where your kids would look a gorg or just
[01:08:55.520 -> 01:08:59.880] completely immersed in something because he said use that as the opportunity to
[01:08:59.880 -> 01:09:04.240] go and explore what is it that intrigues them and from the moment of him
[01:09:04.240 -> 01:09:09.540] discovering that he loved music and was happy to lock himself in a bedroom for
[01:09:09.540 -> 01:09:15.480] six months to learn how to play a chord or to record a song, that to me was
[01:09:15.480 -> 01:09:19.840] really fascinating. I really hope that for people who are struggling they
[01:09:19.840 -> 01:09:32.200] realise that he was at a point where you probably couldn't get much lower and he got out of it. But I also think for people who feel like they're existing as the superstar
[01:09:32.200 -> 01:09:37.400] of their own universe, take the warnings from Gary Barlow, life's a team sport. It took
[01:09:37.400 -> 01:09:43.040] him a big knock, a huge knock to realize the value that other people can bring to his life.
[01:09:43.040 -> 01:09:47.200] Yeah, you know, when hubris meets your nemesis,
[01:09:47.200 -> 01:09:49.600] it often doesn't have a happy consequences.
[01:09:49.600 -> 01:09:55.200] And I think for him, the hubristic nature of assuming that he was infallible,
[01:09:55.200 -> 01:09:58.000] and then to meet his nemesis of someone like Robbie Williams
[01:09:58.000 -> 01:10:01.400] that went off and achieved his own incredible success,
[01:10:01.400 -> 01:10:03.200] that, you know, we use that term,
[01:10:03.200 -> 01:10:09.240] the next few years were catastrophic for him. And I think a little bit of humility goes a long way.
[01:10:09.240 -> 01:10:11.360] I really enjoyed it. Thanks, mate.
[01:10:11.360 -> 01:10:13.640] Thanks, mate. Loved it.
[01:10:13.640 -> 01:10:18.240] As always, huge thanks for listening to High Performance. If you want to watch it, you
[01:10:18.240 -> 01:10:22.360] can do that as well. You can find us on YouTube, just type in High Performance Podcast onto
[01:10:22.360 -> 01:10:28.640] YouTube, join the millions of people who watch our content on there as well. I sometimes think it's a bit more emotional
[01:10:28.640 -> 01:10:31.880] when you can really see the whites of someone's eyes when they're talking about the kinds
[01:10:31.880 -> 01:10:36.340] of things that Gary has just discussed with us. And there's only one thing I ask from
[01:10:36.340 -> 01:10:41.960] you in return for this content, which we are determined will always be free for you. We
[01:10:41.960 -> 01:10:45.400] just want you to hit the subscribe button. For you to subscribe to High Performance,
[01:10:45.400 -> 01:10:46.640] it grows our channel.
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[01:10:48.920 -> 01:10:50.520] the greater the names we can attract,
[01:10:50.520 -> 01:10:52.720] and the greater the names we can attract,
[01:10:52.720 -> 01:10:55.040] then the more influence they can have in your life.
[01:10:55.040 -> 01:10:56.240] Thank you so much for listening.
[01:10:56.240 -> 01:10:57.440] Thank you so much for being part
[01:10:57.440 -> 01:10:59.160] of our High Performance family.
[01:10:59.160 -> 01:11:00.400] We love this community.
[01:11:00.400 -> 01:11:01.840] We love the feedback.
[01:11:01.840 -> 01:11:04.040] We love the direction that things are moving in,
[01:11:04.040 -> 01:11:06.520] and we can't wait to share more with you. See you soon
[01:11:23.030 -> 01:11:25.030] you