Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 10 Apr 2023 00:00:12 GMT
Duration:
1:09:59
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Brent Hoberman is an entrepreneur and investor. He co-founded lastminute.com and made.com, both of which went on to be valued at $1 billion dollars. Being born in South Africa, from a Jewish family and moving to England to attend boarding school, Brent identifies being an immigrant and an outsider as a driving force in his work. He shares with Jake and Damian how he used his misfit status to create his own path, and now actively looks for outsiders and mavericks to work alongside him.
They discuss how to build credibility as an entrepreneur and why this is so important. Brent doesn’t believe that anyone can be an entrepreneur, he reveals the traits and skills he looks for in young employees. After over 20 years of managing people and founding businesses, Brent shares the secret to finding the right employees, how to create and maintain a dynamic culture and how to find the benefit in controversy.
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**I. Introduction to Brent Hoberman and the Podcast Episode**
* Brent Hoberman is a successful entrepreneur and investor, known for co-founding lastminute.com and made.com, both of which reached valuations of $1 billion.
* The podcast episode focuses on Brent's insights into entrepreneurship, building credibility, finding the right employees, creating a dynamic culture, and embracing controversy.
**II. The Importance of Credibility for Entrepreneurs**
* Brent believes that building credibility is crucial for entrepreneurs.
* He emphasizes that entrepreneurship is not for everyone, and certain traits and skills are necessary for success.
* Experience, surrounding oneself with credible individuals, and acquiring smart investors are ways to build credibility.
**III. Finding the Right Employees and Creating a Dynamic Culture**
* Brent shares his approach to finding the right employees and creating a dynamic culture within organizations.
* He highlights the importance of identifying individuals who are passionate about their work and possess the necessary skills and mindset.
* Brent emphasizes the value of fostering a culture that encourages innovation, collaboration, and continuous learning.
**IV. Embracing Controversy and Finding the Benefit in It**
* Brent discusses the role of controversy in business and the potential benefits that can arise from it.
* He believes that controversy can generate attention, create opportunities for growth, and lead to positive change.
* Brent encourages entrepreneurs to embrace controversy and use it as a catalyst for progress.
**V. Key Insights, Perspectives, and Controversies**
* The episode highlights the importance of resilience, determination, and perseverance in entrepreneurship.
* Brent emphasizes the significance of lateral thinking and breaking the rules in a constructive manner to achieve success.
* He also stresses the need for entrepreneurs to be comfortable with failure and learn from their mistakes.
**VI. The Secret to Finding the Right Employees**
* Brent reveals that the secret to finding the right employees lies in identifying individuals who are passionate about their work and possess the necessary skills and mindset.
* He emphasizes the importance of creating a culture that encourages innovation, collaboration, and continuous learning.
**VII. Creating a Dynamic Culture**
* Brent discusses the importance of fostering a dynamic culture within organizations.
* He highlights the value of encouraging innovation, collaboration, and continuous learning.
* Brent emphasizes the need for leaders to create an environment where employees feel empowered and motivated to contribute their best work.
**VIII. Conclusion: The Overall Message of the Podcast**
* The podcast episode emphasizes the importance of building credibility, finding the right employees, creating a dynamic culture, and embracing controversy as an entrepreneur.
* Brent's insights provide valuable lessons for those aspiring to succeed in the business world.
# Podcast Episode Summary: The High Performance Podcast with Brent Hoberman
**Episode Overview:**
In this episode of The High Performance Podcast, host Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes engage in a thought-provoking conversation with Brent Hoberman, a renowned entrepreneur and investor. Brent shares his insights on building credibility as an entrepreneur, the significance of finding the right employees, and the art of creating a dynamic and successful company culture.
**Key Points:**
1. **Building Credibility as an Entrepreneur:**
- Brent emphasizes the importance of establishing credibility as an entrepreneur, highlighting that it plays a crucial role in attracting talent, raising funds, and achieving success.
- He believes that credibility is earned through a combination of factors, including a strong track record, a clear vision, and a genuine passion for the venture.
2. **Traits and Skills Required in Young Employees:**
- Brent discusses the traits and skills he seeks in young employees, emphasizing the significance of intellectual curiosity, resilience, and a willingness to learn and grow.
- He highlights the importance of hiring individuals who are passionate about their work and who possess the drive to succeed.
3. **The Secret to Finding the Right Employees:**
- Brent shares his insights on identifying and recruiting the right employees, emphasizing the need to look beyond traditional qualifications and focus on finding individuals who align with the company's values and culture.
- He stresses the importance of creating a positive and supportive work environment that encourages employees to thrive and reach their full potential.
4. **Creating a Dynamic and Successful Company Culture:**
- Brent delves into the art of creating a dynamic and successful company culture, emphasizing the significance of fostering a sense of purpose, shared values, and a strong sense of community among employees.
- He highlights the importance of empowering employees, encouraging open communication, and celebrating successes as key elements in building a thriving company culture.
5. **The Benefit of Controversy:**
- Brent discusses the potential benefits of controversy in the workplace, arguing that it can stimulate creativity, innovation, and critical thinking.
- He emphasizes the need for leaders to embrace controversy in a constructive manner, encouraging healthy debate and fostering an environment where diverse perspectives are valued.
**Overall Message:**
Brent Hoberman's appearance on The High Performance Podcast offers valuable insights into the world of entrepreneurship, talent acquisition, and company culture. He emphasizes the significance of credibility, the importance of hiring the right employees, and the art of creating a dynamic and successful company culture. Brent's experiences and perspectives provide a roadmap for aspiring entrepreneurs and leaders seeking to achieve high performance in their ventures.
Sure, here is a summary of the podcast episode:
**Title:** The High-Performance Podcast: Brent Hoberman - The Outsider
**Summary:**
Brent Hoberman, an entrepreneur and investor, shares his insights on building successful businesses, fostering a dynamic culture, and recognizing opportunities. He emphasizes the importance of credibility, curiosity, and grit. Hoberman believes that surrounding oneself with talented and diverse individuals is key to innovation and success. He also stresses the value of taking calculated risks and being adaptable in a rapidly changing business landscape.
**Key Points:**
* **Gaining Credibility:**
* Demonstrate excellence in a specific area to establish credibility.
* Be prepared and well-researched when meeting with potential investors or partners.
* **Creating an Exceptional Culture:**
* Hire individuals who align with the company's core values and possess a strong work ethic.
* Avoid compromising on cultural fit for the sake of filling a position quickly.
* Foster a culture of respect, excellence, and continuous learning.
* **Embracing Controversy:**
* Courting controversy can generate buzz and attract attention to a brand.
* Be willing to push boundaries, but avoid crossing the line into unethical or illegal behavior.
* **The DNA of a Successful Team:**
* Seek individuals with integrity, charm, intelligence, curiosity, and tenacity.
* Hire workaholics and tenacious individuals who view their current role as a career-defining moment.
* Embrace diversity in backgrounds and perspectives to foster a dynamic and innovative culture.
* **Striving for Excellence:**
* Set high standards and demand excellence from yourself and your team.
* Encourage a culture of continuous improvement and learning.
* Be willing to make tough decisions when necessary to maintain a high-performance team.
* **Taking Calculated Risks:**
* Be willing to take calculated risks and step outside of your comfort zone.
* Embrace failure as a learning opportunity and a stepping stone to success.
* Be adaptable and willing to pivot when necessary.
* **Recognizing Opportunities:**
* Stay informed about industry trends and emerging technologies.
* Surround yourself with diverse individuals who can provide different perspectives.
* Travel and explore new cultures to gain a broader understanding of the world.
**Overall Message:**
Brent Hoberman emphasizes the importance of building a strong foundation, fostering a dynamic culture, and embracing calculated risks to achieve success in business. He believes that surrounding oneself with talented and diverse individuals, setting high standards, and being adaptable are key ingredients for creating a high-performance team and achieving long-term success.
# Podcast Episode Summary: Brent Hoberman, Entrepreneur and Investor
## Introduction
* Brent Hoberman, co-founder of lastminute.com and made.com, shares his insights on entrepreneurship, building credibility, and finding the right employees.
* He emphasizes the importance of confidence, adaptability, and surrounding oneself with a dynamic team.
## Key Points
### 1. Building Credibility as an Entrepreneur:
* Credibility is crucial for entrepreneurs to succeed.
* It takes time and consistency to build credibility.
* Authenticity and transparency are essential in establishing trust with stakeholders.
### 2. Traits and Skills for Young Employees:
* Brent looks for adaptability, resilience, and a willingness to learn in young employees.
* He values individuals who are passionate about their work and have a strong work ethic.
* A positive attitude and the ability to work well in a team are also important qualities.
### 3. The Secret to Finding the Right Employees:
* Brent believes in hiring people who are different from him and bring diverse perspectives to the team.
* He seeks individuals who are passionate about the company's mission and values.
* A good cultural fit is essential for employee success and team cohesion.
### 4. Creating and Maintaining a Dynamic Culture:
* Brent emphasizes the importance of creating a culture of innovation and continuous learning.
* He encourages employees to take risks and experiment with new ideas.
* A supportive and collaborative work environment fosters creativity and productivity.
### 5. Finding the Benefit in Controversy:
* Brent believes that controversy can be beneficial if it leads to productive discussions and new insights.
* He encourages open and honest communication within the team, even if it leads to disagreements.
* A willingness to embrace different perspectives can lead to innovative solutions.
### 6. The Importance of Confidence:
* Brent stresses the significance of confidence in entrepreneurship.
* He advises young people to build their confidence through various experiences and challenges.
* Confidence enables individuals to overcome obstacles and pursue their goals with determination.
## Conclusion
* Brent Hoberman's insights provide valuable guidance for aspiring entrepreneurs and those seeking to build successful businesses.
* His emphasis on credibility, adaptability, and team dynamics highlights the key elements for achieving high performance.
* The podcast episode offers practical advice and inspiration for listeners interested in entrepreneurship and personal development.
[00:00.000 -> 00:06.880] Hi there, I'm Jake Humphrey and this is High Performance. This is the podcast that
[00:06.880 -> 00:11.400] reminds you it's within. Your ambition, your purpose, your story are all there. We just
[00:11.400 -> 00:16.360] unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your
[00:16.360 -> 00:21.200] life lessons. So right now, please allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes to speak to one
[00:21.200 -> 00:25.520] of the most impressive and successful entrepreneurs on the planet,
[00:25.520 -> 00:29.440] so that he can be your teacher. Listen, if you are an entrepreneur, if you're a business person,
[00:29.440 -> 00:35.760] if you're a CEO, if you're an employee or an employer, but you want to hear a really honest,
[00:35.760 -> 00:40.960] serious, in-depth conversation about life in business, about life as an entrepreneur,
[00:40.960 -> 00:47.680] about how you can go and do it yourself, then this is the episode for you. Today, this awaits you.
[00:49.040 -> 00:53.880] The obsessiveness you need to succeed is not for everyone. The best
[00:53.880 -> 00:58.240] entrepreneurs, I'm sorry in this day of work life balance, they don't have work
[00:58.240 -> 01:04.640] life balance, work is their life and they love it. We were very much of the
[01:04.640 -> 01:05.800] opinion that the way we were going
[01:05.800 -> 01:09.200] to put everyone else off was make ourselves out with a little bit of bluff
[01:09.200 -> 01:13.840] to be much bigger and more successful than we were already. So we would say
[01:13.840 -> 01:16.480] that we're not just going to say to people here's a good idea, we're going to
[01:16.480 -> 01:20.680] put our flag in the ground and say here's a good idea and do not try and
[01:20.680 -> 01:24.360] stop us because we're going to conquer it. We've got everything going for us, you
[01:24.360 -> 01:27.840] know, we've got a steamroller of money and people and talent and everything.
[01:27.840 -> 01:28.720] Years before we did.
[01:29.920 -> 01:34.640] We price it after a shortened roadshow by an increase during that 10-day period,
[01:34.640 -> 01:37.520] more than anyone in Europe has ever increased the price.
[01:37.520 -> 01:42.480] We go public 18 months from launch, faster than I think still anyone has ever gone public.
[01:42.480 -> 01:44.960] We are 43 times oversubscribed.
[01:46.000 -> 01:52.160] And then on the day, you watch the stock, and then we see it keeps going down. However
[01:52.160 -> 01:57.540] you can, build that confidence, whatever it takes to find it, because that will help you
[01:57.540 -> 01:59.260] do so much in life.
[01:59.260 -> 02:06.320] So today we welcome a guy called Brent Hoberman, who you may well have heard of. He famously
[02:06.320 -> 02:11.400] co-founded lastminute.com and the story around that, the way that they built it and it exploded
[02:11.400 -> 02:15.440] and then there were struggles and challenges. It's a really fascinating conversation, which
[02:15.440 -> 02:19.240] you'll hear over the next hour or so. But Brent didn't stop there. He's gone on to do
[02:19.240 -> 02:24.160] some of the most fascinating things, including recently being the co-founder of made.com
[02:24.160 -> 02:29.240] and we'll talk about this and what happened there in this conversation. But we're also going to discuss
[02:29.240 -> 02:34.760] what Brent looks for in an entrepreneur, why he's decided to co-found the startup accelerator
[02:34.760 -> 02:40.960] Founders Factory, and the tech community Founders Forum, and the huge seed fund First Minute
[02:40.960 -> 02:46.860] Capital. Tech businesses co-founded by Brent have cumulatively raised
[02:46.860 -> 02:52.820] well over a billion dollars. He sits on some of the most interesting advisory boards. He
[02:52.820 -> 02:58.340] meets some of the most remarkable people. And so much of it, he believes, is your mindset,
[02:58.340 -> 03:08.080] your approach, your hard work, your dedication. So please welcome, Brent Hoberman.
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[05:51.000 -> 06:01.960] Thank you for joining us, first of all. We always start with the question of what represents
[06:01.960 -> 06:10.320] high performance to you? What would you say? So I'd say high performance for me is a combination of things. One is that sort of obsessiveness,
[06:10.320 -> 06:14.560] but where you don't know you're being obsessive. Where you get into a flow state. To me,
[06:14.560 -> 06:18.160] the definition of flow state is you lose track of time because you're enjoying what you're doing
[06:18.160 -> 06:22.880] is so much. So I think that leads to high performance and excellence. Because even
[06:22.880 -> 06:25.360] somebody with, say, maybe perhaps
[06:25.360 -> 06:30.240] minor ADD like me, is when I get into that state, I really can focus. And then I think
[06:30.240 -> 06:33.840] I'm at my best. But the other thing in high performance in business, I'd say,
[06:34.560 -> 06:41.120] is like playing chess. It's having a vision, thinking many steps ahead and thinking of all
[06:41.120 -> 06:46.640] your options, but then also being able to think of the micro
[06:44.920 -> 06:49.680] in the detail and what's your next move
[06:46.640 -> 06:51.760] while also thinking 20 moves ahead.
[06:49.680 -> 06:54.840] Toby Ballard-Bellary So are you able to be the obsessive
[06:51.760 -> 06:57.520] all-in entrepreneur and at the same time
[06:54.840 -> 06:59.600] see 20 steps ahead and at the same
[06:57.520 -> 07:01.640] time have the small day-to-day
[06:59.600 -> 07:03.680] vision or is it about building teams to
[07:01.640 -> 07:05.800] carry out all those different tasks for
[07:03.680 -> 07:05.840] you? I think it's both is the answer.
[07:05.840 -> 07:09.080] I think to my mind, the best entrepreneurs
[07:09.080 -> 07:13.360] are those that can have this absolute micro detail
[07:13.360 -> 07:14.700] in their mind, in their head,
[07:14.700 -> 07:16.800] but also probably create systems
[07:16.800 -> 07:20.000] whereby they're having information reported up to them.
[07:20.000 -> 07:22.800] They have systems where they know what is the details
[07:22.800 -> 07:27.940] that are showing where things are going red, amber, green, way deep in an organisation.
[07:27.940 -> 07:33.000] And they're also able to have this big strategic vision, and they're able to attract incredible
[07:33.000 -> 07:35.100] talent to help them execute on the vision.
[07:35.100 -> 07:37.100] Toby Course And it's now the most exciting time to be
[07:37.100 -> 07:41.900] an entrepreneur, because I don't know what you know, but I don't think the world has
[07:41.900 -> 07:48.080] ever been a more exciting place to operate with the way that social media and the internet and the way we're all connected.
[07:48.080 -> 07:51.880] It was interesting, I was speaking at a school last week and then I asked the room in the
[07:51.880 -> 07:56.560] school, how many of you are thinking of being entrepreneurs? This was kids from 13 to 18
[07:56.560 -> 08:01.000] and it was self-selecting because it was the entrepreneurship society, but nonetheless
[08:01.000 -> 08:05.900] about 98% of hands went up. Now, when I was at school a million years ago,
[08:05.900 -> 08:08.460] I think you would have had one or 2%.
[08:08.460 -> 08:09.500] So it wasn't a thing.
[08:09.500 -> 08:10.920] So to your point about timing,
[08:10.920 -> 08:12.480] now entrepreneurship is a thing.
[08:12.480 -> 08:14.360] It's a real option for young people.
[08:14.360 -> 08:17.280] They've seen so many people do it and succeed.
[08:17.280 -> 08:20.480] That said, it's harder in one sense,
[08:20.480 -> 08:22.260] in that there are no barriers to entry.
[08:22.260 -> 08:24.360] So it's easier to enter, but once you're in it,
[08:24.360 -> 08:27.200] you've got to work out how to be at your best performance
[08:27.200 -> 08:29.400] because there are going to be a lot of people
[08:29.400 -> 08:30.240] competing with you.
[08:30.240 -> 08:31.160] Interesting.
[08:31.160 -> 08:34.800] So if you were giving advice to those kids at that school,
[08:34.800 -> 08:37.440] the 98% that want to do it,
[08:37.440 -> 08:39.280] what are the steps that you'd advise
[08:39.280 -> 08:41.560] about how to take those initial?
[08:41.560 -> 08:44.200] Yeah, so that was a good question that I was asked
[08:44.200 -> 08:49.280] was sort of what skills should we be building to become entrepreneurs was what somebody from one of the state schools
[08:49.280 -> 08:54.440] there asked me. And it was interesting because to be honest, it was asked very meekly and
[08:54.440 -> 08:58.440] quietly with without confidence. So it gave me the clue. It's like the first thing that
[08:58.440 -> 09:03.040] person needs to do is work out how to build their confidence because entrepreneurs are
[09:03.040 -> 09:06.680] for better or worse. They're almost always quite confident.
[09:06.680 -> 09:09.600] Now, confidence is something I think we can all learn.
[09:09.600 -> 09:12.160] I certainly recall to them how,
[09:12.160 -> 09:14.640] when I was a 16-year-old spotty teenager,
[09:14.640 -> 09:16.520] I had very little confidence,
[09:16.520 -> 09:18.400] but I built it up through various ways.
[09:18.400 -> 09:20.280] And I said to her, I said,
[09:20.280 -> 09:21.840] look, build your confidence.
[09:21.840 -> 09:22.840] What's that mean?
[09:22.840 -> 09:25.240] Practically, join the debating society.
[09:25.240 -> 09:26.560] Learn to speak in public.
[09:26.560 -> 09:28.600] Speak whenever you can in public, for example,
[09:28.600 -> 09:31.640] because that sort of stuff, as you guys know,
[09:31.640 -> 09:34.200] it becomes so much easier every time you do it.
[09:34.200 -> 09:36.000] That's one of the skills to be an entrepreneur.
[09:36.000 -> 09:37.800] Now, the other one I pushed on
[09:37.800 -> 09:39.840] was breaking the rules within reason.
[09:39.840 -> 09:41.520] I think it's lateral thinking.
[09:41.520 -> 09:43.800] It's like, okay, the era of rote learning,
[09:43.800 -> 09:46.140] that's gone, going, going, gone, should be gone,
[09:46.140 -> 09:48.160] because you can use Google for that, right?
[09:48.160 -> 09:51.440] But what you can't use artificial intelligence for yet
[09:51.440 -> 09:53.120] is lateral thinking.
[09:53.120 -> 09:54.080] How do you break the rules?
[09:54.080 -> 09:56.160] How do you think differently to everyone else?
[09:56.160 -> 09:58.240] And then the other thing I said is,
[09:58.240 -> 10:00.120] how do you understand the future?
[10:00.120 -> 10:02.160] So entrepreneurs need to understand the future
[10:02.160 -> 10:03.860] in a counterintuitive way.
[10:03.860 -> 10:08.640] Because if we all understood, if you're building a business plan and everybody is in agreement
[10:08.640 -> 10:11.120] with you that this is going to work and this is exactly what the world's going to be like in five
[10:11.120 -> 10:15.280] years time, you've got no edge. Why is lateral thinking such an important part of being an
[10:15.280 -> 10:18.800] entrepreneur? Because I think lateral thinking helps you solve problems in different ways to
[10:18.800 -> 10:23.520] everyone else. You've got to zig when others zag. You've got to find different ways to solve
[10:23.520 -> 10:26.560] problems. And then the last bit that we haven't talked about,
[10:26.560 -> 10:27.780] what's the other skill you need to build up
[10:27.780 -> 10:28.620] to be an entrepreneur?
[10:28.620 -> 10:29.440] Sorry, to go back to that,
[10:29.440 -> 10:33.120] but is tenacity, determination, passion,
[10:33.120 -> 10:35.240] but particularly that's focused on that tenacity one.
[10:35.240 -> 10:37.520] And that's, I guess, similar to sportsman, right?
[10:37.520 -> 10:39.200] Which you guys know much better than I do,
[10:39.200 -> 10:41.700] but it is that point of being an entrepreneur,
[10:41.700 -> 10:43.760] you face failure so many times,
[10:43.760 -> 10:45.320] you face rejection so many times.
[10:45.320 -> 10:46.880] We've all heard the stories of people
[10:46.880 -> 10:48.840] who've gone to a hundred people to raise money
[10:48.840 -> 10:51.240] and 99 have said no, but it's the hundredth
[10:51.240 -> 10:52.640] where they say yes.
[10:52.640 -> 10:54.480] So you've got to keep going through all those barriers
[10:54.480 -> 10:56.360] and keep learning, keep getting better,
[10:56.360 -> 10:58.480] but have that self-belief.
[10:58.480 -> 10:59.920] And that's the hard bit.
[10:59.920 -> 11:01.920] The other hardest bit of being an entrepreneur early,
[11:01.920 -> 11:04.280] I think is, who do you listen to?
[11:04.280 -> 11:09.360] Because if, like I listened to my good friends when I first had the lastminute.com business plan
[11:09.360 -> 11:13.360] and almost all of them said, Brent, you're crazy, you're bonkers, this internet thing's never going
[11:13.360 -> 11:20.480] to work and you should get a life, you know, but somehow I still had enough belief that I'd
[11:20.480 -> 11:26.520] understood where this internet thing was going in 1997 and that they had
[11:24.800 -> 11:27.840] sort of missed the boat. Toby Greencliff- So I wonder where
[11:26.520 -> 11:30.320] that came from for you then, is this
[11:27.840 -> 11:33.360] because I love the idea right that
[11:30.320 -> 11:34.960] anyone can be an entrepreneur. Do you
[11:33.360 -> 11:37.200] subscribe to that or do you think that
[11:34.960 -> 11:39.200] you don't? Because
[11:37.200 -> 11:40.760] it's something that
[11:39.200 -> 11:42.920] you were born with or it was the
[11:40.760 -> 11:45.040] messaging from your father or your
[11:42.920 -> 11:45.480] grandfather or it was your schooling? I don't your grandfather, or it was your schooling?
[11:45.480 -> 11:47.080] I don't think it's that I was born with it.
[11:47.080 -> 11:49.760] I think I'm very wary of, and I was with,
[11:49.760 -> 11:51.520] as I may have mentioned, with Matteo Flamini,
[11:51.520 -> 11:54.160] the footballer, doing this entrepreneurship talk,
[11:54.160 -> 11:56.100] and we were both of the opinion that
[11:56.100 -> 11:57.320] it's sort of dangerous to say
[11:57.320 -> 11:58.660] everyone can be an entrepreneur,
[11:58.660 -> 12:01.360] because actually, let alone for people's mental health,
[12:01.360 -> 12:04.280] this resilience isn't something everyone has.
[12:04.280 -> 12:06.080] And people can find happy,
[12:06.080 -> 12:07.400] what we want is people to be happy, right?
[12:07.400 -> 12:09.440] They can find happiness in many different ways.
[12:09.440 -> 12:10.960] And my wife tells me,
[12:10.960 -> 12:11.800] or I say to my kids,
[12:11.800 -> 12:12.920] you have to be an entrepreneur or whatever,
[12:12.920 -> 12:14.800] they're like, make sure they know they can be happy
[12:14.800 -> 12:15.880] in lots of different other ways.
[12:15.880 -> 12:17.880] It's not just that.
[12:17.880 -> 12:20.400] And I think what I mean is by people being suited
[12:20.400 -> 12:21.320] to be an entrepreneur,
[12:21.320 -> 12:25.720] it's this point that the obsessiveness you need to succeed
[12:25.720 -> 12:27.260] is not for everyone.
[12:27.260 -> 12:28.560] The best entrepreneurs,
[12:28.560 -> 12:31.240] I'm sorry in this day of work-life balance,
[12:31.240 -> 12:32.800] they don't have work-life balance.
[12:32.800 -> 12:35.520] Work is their life and they love it.
[12:35.520 -> 12:38.040] And not everybody is gonna love work that much
[12:38.040 -> 12:41.000] that they can give it 95% of their whole life
[12:41.000 -> 12:42.960] for a period of time.
[12:42.960 -> 12:44.880] I mean, my view is it's a time period
[12:44.880 -> 12:49.400] and I'm slightly ageist about this. I think you want to be an entrepreneur, do it young. So
[12:49.400 -> 12:54.360] if there are people listening here, I'd say, don't put it off. Do it when you have very
[12:54.360 -> 12:58.040] little to lose before the mortgage and the kids. Ideally, it doesn't have to be, but
[12:58.040 -> 13:03.740] that's ideal. So that that stress is less because the stress, if you've got the mortgage
[13:03.740 -> 13:05.200] and the kids and you have to pay for all this stuff
[13:05.200 -> 13:06.760] and you got all people depending on you,
[13:06.760 -> 13:08.320] is so much greater.
[13:08.320 -> 13:10.480] And that's what the great Reid Hoffman says,
[13:10.480 -> 13:11.320] when you're being an entrepreneur,
[13:11.320 -> 13:12.980] always think about what your worst case is.
[13:12.980 -> 13:13.820] What's your plan Z?
[13:13.820 -> 13:16.040] If it all fails in your mind,
[13:16.040 -> 13:18.040] you've got to be happy with that plan Z.
[13:18.040 -> 13:19.320] So if there's someone listening to this
[13:19.320 -> 13:21.440] and they've got this great idea,
[13:21.440 -> 13:23.720] because we are listened to by so many
[13:23.720 -> 13:25.840] wannabe entrepreneurs, young business startups.
[13:25.840 -> 13:26.840] Toby Richardson 1 Entrepreneurs, I like that.
[13:26.840 -> 13:30.280] Toby Richardson 1 Entrepreneurs, but also the people who are responsible for the next
[13:30.280 -> 13:34.200] generation of entrepreneurs, the teachers and the parents, they're all listening to
[13:34.200 -> 13:41.040] this podcast as well. How do we create a society that is resilient enough to deal with the
[13:41.040 -> 13:46.600] knockbacks, is optimistic enough to keep coming for more knockbacks,
[13:46.600 -> 13:51.800] and is brave enough to realise that the reward comes only after the risk.
[13:51.800 -> 13:56.600] When you fail, you should take it as a learning experience. So in business, there are these
[13:56.600 -> 14:01.120] great examples of particularly like Supercell, which is a 10 billion plus gaming company
[14:01.120 -> 14:08.640] which does Clash of Clans and all that, and their story is how they have failure parties you know when the game has failed they have multiple teams competing on different games
[14:08.640 -> 14:12.160] to launch and then they'll have a failure party where the person whose game they just pulled and
[14:12.160 -> 14:17.120] said you're not gonna you we're not we're gonna pull all funding from your game um talks in front
[14:17.120 -> 14:21.920] of the whole company and says here's what i've learned and they have champagne and they celebrate
[14:21.920 -> 14:29.600] the closure of that game so we need a country and a culture where we are so much better at dealing with failure.
[14:29.600 -> 14:32.200] We need a country where we can stop the schadenfreude.
[14:32.200 -> 14:35.200] One of my biggest obsessions is that schadenfreude,
[14:35.200 -> 14:39.000] although it's a German word, meaning obviously having great joy in others' failures,
[14:39.000 -> 14:42.000] is really the most British of terms.
[14:42.000 -> 14:48.800] It's something that this culture, and forgive me, my friends at the Daily Mail, but stop it if you're working for the Daily Mail.
[14:48.800 -> 14:52.600] Stop that culture because you're one of the biggest culprits in this country.
[14:52.600 -> 14:54.600] Toby Vayne You think that's where it comes from? Because I see it all over Twitter.
[14:54.600 -> 14:57.000] I guess people are impacted by what they read and see.
[14:57.000 -> 15:02.400] Neil Milliken I think arguably the mail is a mirror. What they would say to me, I don't know how, is that they're a mirror of what they see in the country, right?
[15:02.400 -> 15:05.140] Toby Vayne They would say those articles get read the most. Yeah, exactly.
[15:05.140 -> 15:05.640] Exactly.
[15:05.640 -> 15:07.220] That's why they're just mirroring it.
[15:07.220 -> 15:11.220] But we do somehow have to be happier
[15:11.220 -> 15:12.980] when we see other people succeed.
[15:12.980 -> 15:15.460] And that means also not reveling in their failure.
[15:15.460 -> 15:18.740] It means not building people up just so we can knock them down.
[15:18.740 -> 15:21.300] And this is all a microcosm of entrepreneurship, right?
[15:21.300 -> 15:22.460] Because this is what happens.
[15:22.460 -> 15:24.100] This is the cycle of entrepreneurship.
[15:24.100 -> 15:26.400] You're going to go through those highs and lows. And this
[15:26.400 -> 15:30.800] is why, again, going to the point is maybe not everyone should be an entrepreneur because
[15:30.800 -> 15:34.580] you need to have that sort of slightly thick skin. And it's very hard having suffered this
[15:34.580 -> 15:39.160] myself when I was, I used to say with last minute, when we went public, we were like
[15:39.160 -> 15:42.440] for a minute that we were on the cover of business week and we were like the best thing
[15:42.440 -> 15:47.880] since sliced bread. And then the market burst and we were literally burnt toast. You know, it was like
[15:47.880 -> 15:52.600] the worst thing and everybody, the media was like saying, is Martha Lane Fox my co-founder?
[15:52.600 -> 15:56.240] The most hated woman in Britain was a big headline, you know, and she'd done nothing
[15:56.240 -> 16:00.840] wrong. It was just the market turned and the media loved saying, oh, you know, these young
[16:00.840 -> 16:04.640] kids who we all said were brilliant. Well, now we think they're idiots. And that is a
[16:04.640 -> 16:05.800] tough thing to go through.
[16:05.800 -> 16:06.280] And it's not.
[16:06.400 -> 16:09.480] We were lucky enough, Martin, I'd have lots of support systems and a hundred
[16:09.480 -> 16:11.440] million in the bank, let's be honest, once we'd raised.
[16:11.640 -> 16:13.520] So it makes it a lot easier to deal with the brickbats.
[16:13.680 -> 16:16.040] But for some people dealing with those brickbats will just knock you down.
[16:16.560 -> 16:20.480] But what I'm interested in is that that comment that not everyone can be an
[16:20.480 -> 16:27.800] entrepreneur and you almost have to go through these saving experiences
[16:24.760 -> 16:29.720] to find out it's not for you. So what
[16:27.800 -> 16:31.680] are the, if there's anyone listening to this
[16:29.720 -> 16:33.640] that's going, I don't know, I quite
[16:31.680 -> 16:36.520] like the idea of trying out but I don't
[16:33.640 -> 16:38.840] know if I am well equipped to handle a
[16:36.520 -> 16:41.400] lifetime of these ups and downs on this
[16:38.840 -> 16:43.040] rollercoaster ride. What sort of advice
[16:41.400 -> 16:44.840] would you give to anyone to find out
[16:43.040 -> 16:45.400] whether they do have the resolve to do this?
[16:45.400 -> 16:49.080] It's have you been through lots of tough times,
[16:49.080 -> 16:51.880] failed and pick yourself up again?
[16:51.880 -> 16:55.000] Have you got some sort of either support system around you
[16:55.000 -> 16:56.680] or that deep inner resilience,
[16:56.680 -> 16:57.720] which you could just have on your own?
[16:57.720 -> 16:58.560] And actually, by the way,
[16:58.560 -> 17:00.320] I don't want to over egg the external support system
[17:00.320 -> 17:02.920] because often, by the way, the best entrepreneurs
[17:02.920 -> 17:04.920] are they're often unhinged individuals
[17:04.920 -> 17:05.040] with a massive chip on their shoulder and massive insecurity. So if anyone is listening to this, Because often, by the way, the best entrepreneurs are they're often unhinged individuals with
[17:05.040 -> 17:08.360] a massive chip on their shoulder and massive insecurity.
[17:08.360 -> 17:12.040] So if anyone is listening to this and they were bullied at school and they're a little
[17:12.040 -> 17:16.980] bit insecure, but that insecurity is instead of driving them underground, has driven them
[17:16.980 -> 17:22.040] to have outsized ambition to prove themselves that they're better than the bullies, then
[17:22.040 -> 17:24.360] entrepreneurship could be a brilliant gateway for you.
[17:24.360 -> 17:28.560] I love that. What a brilliant way of reframing struggle for any young kid. But it's
[17:28.560 -> 17:33.440] so true, when you look at the best entrepreneurs. Does that happen for you then? A bit. So, I was a
[17:33.440 -> 17:39.680] South African born Jewish entrepreneur who'd been to America before and then came to England one
[17:39.680 -> 17:49.420] year here and then boarding school, some of the most English, lovely boarding schools. So I came to England as this immigrant and these English boarding schools, and which
[17:49.420 -> 17:55.180] I was very lucky to be at, but I was definitely the outsider. And I think
[17:55.180 -> 18:00.340] these schools are actually almost more brilliant if you are an outsider, because
[18:00.340 -> 18:05.360] then there are zero chances of any entitlement. That's knocked out of you by your peers.
[18:05.360 -> 18:09.720] And if you can use that immigrant energy to say,
[18:09.720 -> 18:14.080] actually, I can more than fit in here, I can win.
[18:14.080 -> 18:17.280] So it turned me into somebody who wanted to win
[18:17.280 -> 18:18.840] and work extremely hard.
[18:18.840 -> 18:23.280] So academically, I don't think I was one of the brightest
[18:23.280 -> 18:26.740] at school, but I got an internal scholarship
[18:26.740 -> 18:29.440] because I secretly worked really hard.
[18:29.440 -> 18:34.940] I played for the first football team, not because I was really that good, but because
[18:34.940 -> 18:38.280] I would knock people over with my determination.
[18:38.280 -> 18:42.000] If somebody got the ball off me, I would be angry and get back and try and get it.
[18:42.000 -> 18:44.240] There was a determination that shone through.
[18:44.240 -> 18:46.360] Toby Can we talk then about your path? Because
[18:46.360 -> 18:50.720] I'm well aware that, you know, we're lucky lots of young people listen to this podcast
[18:50.720 -> 18:54.460] and I don't want to age all three of us here, but all three of us fully understand the story
[18:54.460 -> 19:01.040] of lastminute.com, but if you're 25, it happened when you were basically zero, right? So, I
[19:01.040 -> 19:05.840] love the story. So, you saw the birth of the internet, you saw the power that the internet
[19:05.840 -> 19:11.520] would have and you had this amazing idea which became lastminute.com. I would love to know
[19:11.520 -> 19:17.200] where the idea came from but then I'd love you to tell us about the bravery of delaying
[19:17.200 -> 19:20.520] carrying it out because you felt the world wasn't ready for it. I think that's the secret
[19:20.520 -> 19:28.520] source here. Timing is absolutely critical. So the idea, I was lucky enough to work in a strategy consultancy which meant that I was being
[19:28.520 -> 19:32.000] paid to learn. So a media and telecom strategy consultancy, which is a
[19:32.000 -> 19:35.280] wonderful thing because you're paid to learn in the early days about internet
[19:35.280 -> 19:40.960] and cable and TV commerce and all these early things in 95, 96. Just as the
[19:40.960 -> 19:46.240] internet was dawning. So I was lucky in that I guess part of my bit
[19:46.240 -> 19:48.680] that was unusual is just I love gadgets.
[19:48.680 -> 19:51.400] So it was literally my father was an engineer, a tinkerer,
[19:51.400 -> 19:53.400] and he built like the first radio station
[19:53.400 -> 19:54.640] in South Africa ever.
[19:54.640 -> 19:58.240] So I just, and he would give me all these little gadgets
[19:58.240 -> 20:00.360] early on at school, like a pirate radio station
[20:00.360 -> 20:01.280] I ran at school and all those things.
[20:01.280 -> 20:08.540] So it was just, I fell in love when I saw the internet, early days. It felt like magic. So I kept obsessing about it, like what's
[20:08.540 -> 20:14.060] the opportunity? And then I'd look at business plans in early days of TV commerce and all
[20:14.060 -> 20:19.300] this sort of stuff and what was almost pre-e-commerce and think, my God, this makes so much sense.
[20:19.300 -> 20:21.940] And I thought, well, the only thing since 96, I thought, well, the only thing I would
[20:21.940 -> 20:28.000] buy now on the internet, because I can really, is books on Amazon. That was it. So I'm like, God, this model makes so much
[20:28.000 -> 20:33.360] sense. There must be other stuff that you could do with this new platform that's coming.
[20:33.360 -> 20:36.580] So that's when I just thought literally of myself as a customer, which is often a great
[20:36.580 -> 20:40.860] way to start a business, and just thought, well, I'm a procrastinator. I would literally
[20:40.860 -> 20:46.620] do everything at the last minute. So I sketched a one page thing of last minute vision,
[20:46.620 -> 20:49.460] which was going away, going out, staying in,
[20:49.460 -> 20:51.420] the three things you can do at the last minute.
[20:51.420 -> 20:56.420] So I wrote with a friend, a sort of 12 page business plan,
[20:56.460 -> 20:58.580] and then did this as you highlight,
[20:58.580 -> 21:00.060] an uncharacteristic thing.
[21:00.060 -> 21:04.580] This was in 96, and I put it away in a drawer.
[21:04.580 -> 21:07.240] I thought this is a wonderful idea but A,
[21:07.240 -> 21:11.720] I'm not equipped to do it because I've got no credibility. I've never managed, I was
[21:11.720 -> 21:16.920] a junior consultant, I'd managed probably one or two people at that point. B, I didn't
[21:16.920 -> 21:23.640] really understand the internet particularly well. And so what I did then was I left that
[21:23.640 -> 21:26.320] company shortly afterwards to get more experience
[21:26.320 -> 21:27.520] in the internet.
[21:27.520 -> 21:31.860] So I worked for a little startup, online auction startup, and then I worked in an internet
[21:31.860 -> 21:33.380] service provider.
[21:33.380 -> 21:36.860] Both were smart in that they gave me massive opportunities.
[21:36.860 -> 21:41.340] So I worked the internet server was owned by BT and News Corp.
[21:41.340 -> 21:45.040] So when you were very young, what better way to, you're doing biz dev, I could call up anyone in the world because you say, I'm working for BT and News Corp. So when you were very young, what better way to you're doing biz dev, I could call
[21:45.040 -> 21:48.720] up anyone in the world because you say, I'm working for BT and News Corp and everyone's like, yeah,
[21:48.720 -> 21:51.920] of course, I'll take your call, you know, you're in. Because I think a lot of young entrepreneurs
[21:51.920 -> 21:55.600] think if they're not being entrepreneurial, then they're not on the right path. Whereas what you're
[21:55.600 -> 22:01.120] saying is don't, don't, don't do that all the time, go and be employed. Yeah, build credibility. I
[22:01.120 -> 22:09.840] always say what entrepreneurs need to do is build credibility. There's a myriad of ways you can do it. First is your own experience. Then it's getting other
[22:09.840 -> 22:14.960] people around you who add credibility to your story, whether it's advisory board or smart
[22:14.960 -> 22:21.200] investors or first hires. What I'm really intrigued about is this idea that you've had, because
[22:22.080 -> 22:25.520] when you tell me
[22:22.880 -> 22:27.680] that, I can imagine that it looks
[22:25.520 -> 22:30.080] so blindingly obvious to you, maybe the
[22:27.680 -> 22:32.240] timing isn't right, but I can almost
[22:30.080 -> 22:34.280] imagine if I was in that situation, I'd be
[22:32.240 -> 22:36.680] like, somebody else must have had this
[22:34.280 -> 22:39.680] idea, and therefore if it's so obvious
[22:36.680 -> 22:41.960] somebody else will do it before me. So
[22:39.680 -> 22:43.960] how did you overcome that? Yeah, with
[22:41.960 -> 22:45.920] fear, you're absolutely right, and it
[22:43.960 -> 22:45.200] was, Last Minute.com is such
[22:45.200 -> 22:50.000] an obvious idea, right, when you describe it. It's like… The best always are. Yeah.
[22:50.000 -> 22:58.160] And the best… How do I not think of Airbnb? Exactly. It's all there. It was all there
[22:58.160 -> 23:01.680] for us. Exactly. Well, delivery, that one's a tough one for me, because actually we did
[23:01.680 -> 23:05.380] restaurant food delivery before any of those at last middle comment about 2002
[23:09.260 -> 23:15.760] But I wanted to do it more but my chairman said no way you're eating too many things In fact with hindsight should have just stopped everything else and just done that. Yeah. So the timing's the delay in
[23:16.420 -> 23:19.300] Reality hard enough to know I didn't actually have an alternative
[23:19.660 -> 23:23.000] Right, because it just it just would have been a bad plan at that point
[23:23.020 -> 23:26.520] We might have been a raise a tiny amount of money, but we wouldn't have made it.
[23:26.520 -> 23:29.600] But then, you're right, I would open the papers
[23:29.600 -> 23:30.760] all the time and read the news
[23:30.760 -> 23:32.920] and fearful that somebody was doing it.
[23:32.920 -> 23:35.480] And actually, as we launched, we're close to launching,
[23:35.480 -> 23:36.880] we're just doing our fundraise,
[23:36.880 -> 23:39.680] somebody heard about us, our plan,
[23:39.680 -> 23:41.080] and then approached me and said,
[23:41.080 -> 23:42.280] oh, I'm really advanced,
[23:42.280 -> 23:44.780] I've raised 20 million to do last minute something,
[23:44.780 -> 23:46.920] do you wanna merge in with me?
[23:46.920 -> 23:50.600] And we called his bluff, called him that it was rubbish.
[23:50.600 -> 23:52.000] And it was rubbish.
[23:52.000 -> 23:53.880] But it was interesting how you get those sort of moments,
[23:53.880 -> 23:55.720] those seminal moments where you do get,
[23:55.720 -> 23:57.400] so I want to believe, like some people sort of say,
[23:57.400 -> 23:58.760] you have to be so secretive and whatever.
[23:58.760 -> 24:01.000] I've always wanted to believe that it's not the idea.
[24:01.000 -> 24:03.760] You can tell everyone, you can trust people mostly.
[24:03.760 -> 24:05.020] Sometimes there are bad actors, but you can still beat them with, in this case, actually momentum. So the other point, such an the idea, you can tell everyone, you can trust people mostly. Sometimes there are bad actors,
[24:05.020 -> 24:07.000] but you can still beat them with,
[24:07.000 -> 24:08.540] in this case, actually momentum.
[24:08.540 -> 24:09.920] So the other point is such an obvious idea,
[24:09.920 -> 24:12.800] but by the time, when we did get to launching two years later
[24:12.800 -> 24:15.660] and I persuaded Martha Lane Fox to join me and all that,
[24:15.660 -> 24:17.840] we were very much of the opinion
[24:17.840 -> 24:20.040] that the way we were gonna put everyone else off
[24:20.040 -> 24:22.400] was make ourselves out with a little bit of bluff
[24:22.400 -> 24:25.640] to be much bigger and more successful than we were already.
[24:25.640 -> 24:28.000] So we would say that we're not just gonna say to people,
[24:28.000 -> 24:29.000] here's a good idea.
[24:29.000 -> 24:31.480] We're gonna put our flag in the ground and say,
[24:31.480 -> 24:33.960] here's a good idea and do not try and stop us
[24:33.960 -> 24:35.200] because we're gonna conquer it.
[24:35.200 -> 24:37.080] We've got everything going for us.
[24:37.080 -> 24:39.280] You know, we've got a steamroller of money and people
[24:39.280 -> 24:42.280] and talent and everything years before we did.
[24:42.280 -> 24:44.200] Did you do that publicly or was that?
[24:44.200 -> 24:45.200] Yeah, we were very public. I mean, we were very, I know you called it PR Vayne Did you do that publicly or was that? Ian Marber-Yeah, we were very public.
[24:45.200 -> 24:47.000] Toby Vayne I mean, we were very, I know you courted
[24:47.000 -> 24:48.000] PR, right?
[24:48.000 -> 24:53.000] The two of you, but the two of you became synonymous as young British dot-com entrepreneurs,
[24:53.000 -> 24:54.000] right?
[24:54.000 -> 24:56.920] But those messages were also within the industry as well?
[24:56.920 -> 24:57.920] You were?
[24:57.920 -> 25:01.040] Ian Marber-Yeah, we were, I mean, we did things like, I think one of our smart moves was when
[25:01.040 -> 25:05.120] we were 10 people in a fifth floor walk up with very little money,
[25:05.120 -> 25:10.080] we hired as our chairman a wonderful man called Peter Bough, who was from KLM, who was the
[25:10.080 -> 25:15.960] chairman of KLM, which at the time was a huge airline. And it was like, how on earth, it's
[25:15.960 -> 25:19.660] those moments where people, how on earth did you get this guy? And the lesson for people
[25:19.660 -> 25:23.400] listening is you've got to aim really high, and in terms of talent as well, but how do
[25:23.400 -> 25:26.760] we get him, you've got to have something to give. And for him, what we had to give was, here's
[25:26.760 -> 25:30.760] a story he can tell his grandchildren about. He understands this internet thing, but also,
[25:30.760 -> 25:35.520] more importantly, he can learn about the new, new thing. Because he was smart enough to
[25:35.520 -> 25:41.000] know this internet thing, it just might be mega. And if I understand it better than all
[25:41.000 -> 25:47.500] my peers, that's a good thing. And maybe maybe these young clueless people will figure it out. So you get going, you get a great
[25:47.500 -> 25:53.340] chairman and things start to motor. Do you remember the moment where you went
[25:53.340 -> 25:59.140] from being a entrepreneur and wanting that success to actually thinking, hold on a minute,
[25:59.140 -> 26:03.300] we're actually making waves here, something's happening? Yeah, I think one
[26:03.300 -> 26:07.360] of the early moments of, I mean there were a couple of early moments where I thought, God, this is actually going to happen.
[26:07.360 -> 26:12.240] One weirdly was actually buying the domain name for £16,000, two instalments of £8,000. I managed
[26:12.240 -> 26:17.600] to buy lastminute.com domain name from a German. So that was a big sort of seminal moment. But more
[26:17.600 -> 26:22.240] importantly was the customers. When you feel you've got customers coming online, buying,
[26:22.240 -> 26:26.200] loving it, and we were going viral before viral was
[26:26.200 -> 26:27.200] a thing.
[26:27.200 -> 26:28.680] This was sort of in 98.
[26:28.680 -> 26:32.680] What happened is Martha and I sent an email, and in 98 hardly anyone had email, right?
[26:32.680 -> 26:35.800] But we sent an email to all the people we knew, it wasn't many, the email about the
[26:35.800 -> 26:39.620] company, the launch of the company, and those emails were going round other people's offices.
[26:39.620 -> 26:42.920] They were all sending it because everyone was like, yeah, who doesn't want these amazing
[26:42.920 -> 26:45.080] deals at crazy good prices?
[26:45.080 -> 26:49.440] So we learned that we were going viral and then we just saw this customer demand pick
[26:49.440 -> 26:53.720] up. So that's when we thought actually we might have something. And I think the other
[26:53.720 -> 26:57.840] seminal moment was getting some of the key suppliers on board. Things like getting BA
[26:57.840 -> 27:02.440] on board. At the time BA's market share was huge. I think it was like 60 or 70 percent
[27:02.440 -> 27:05.600] domestic or something. So if they'd said no to us,
[27:05.600 -> 27:08.920] although we weren't just airlines, we were lots more, but still that was the core, that
[27:08.920 -> 27:14.000] was the start of the journey. If they said no, we probably would have failed. We were
[27:14.000 -> 27:18.720] like, look, we'll do all the work. Don't change your process. You're the media pilloried us
[27:18.720 -> 27:22.840] for saying, oh, you're not that integrated, you're not that tech because you're manually
[27:22.840 -> 27:25.080] entering the fares. So they come around to our office
[27:25.080 -> 27:27.120] and see people manually keying the fares.
[27:27.120 -> 27:28.320] But we're like, we're going to do that
[27:28.320 -> 27:29.240] because that's the way they work
[27:29.240 -> 27:30.480] with existing travel agents.
[27:30.480 -> 27:33.400] And we're not big enough to change the way they work yet.
[27:33.400 -> 27:35.760] But once we do get big enough, they will.
[27:35.760 -> 27:36.880] And then it meant for BA,
[27:36.880 -> 27:39.020] similar to the Peter Bauer conversation,
[27:39.020 -> 27:41.520] this was like, this is free R&D.
[27:41.520 -> 27:43.240] We're going to learn about this
[27:43.240 -> 27:49.340] and it's not going to cost us anything. So again, I'm really intrigued when you go into that meeting with BA, for
[27:49.340 -> 27:54.940] example, and how do you know what to offer without giving away too much at
[27:54.940 -> 27:59.460] that stage? Because in business you can smell desperation with
[27:59.460 -> 28:03.640] somebody and if they're looking at it they know that you're desperate, you need
[28:03.640 -> 28:05.920] this deal here, there's one of the pillars of it.
[28:05.920 -> 28:10.360] I think partly in this case, it was getting multiple suppliers, airlines on board at the
[28:10.360 -> 28:11.360] same time.
[28:11.360 -> 28:12.360] Right.
[28:12.360 -> 28:14.100] None of them would go on their own.
[28:14.100 -> 28:18.480] But once we managed to get the core of the top four, and that was where there's a bit
[28:18.480 -> 28:20.280] of entrepreneurial bluff.
[28:20.280 -> 28:24.320] It's sort of like, Alitalia, well, of course BA is on, of course, Deutsche, of course,
[28:24.320 -> 28:29.920] Lufthansa's on. You don't as an entrepreneur ever want to lie, genuinely, but you do want to keep
[28:29.920 -> 28:33.960] like, so you want to keep the conversation open with say a Lufthansa, so it's still possible.
[28:33.960 -> 28:37.800] So you're not lying and saying, Lufthansa's about to sign. Well, they may or may not be,
[28:37.800 -> 28:41.880] but at least they haven't said no. So you don't want to know, because if you're lying,
[28:41.880 -> 28:46.600] the world is small, A, it's just an integrity, but you do have to bluff a bit as an entrepreneur.
[28:46.600 -> 28:53.560] So that's one way not to be desperate, but I think it was this point that BA could see
[28:53.560 -> 28:55.400] us as R&D, you know.
[28:55.400 -> 28:58.160] And what was the thrill for you at this point?
[28:58.160 -> 28:59.760] What was driving you at this point?
[28:59.760 -> 29:06.420] One, I had this toolkit of the technology, So that was fun, is that you have eventually
[29:06.420 -> 29:08.920] where this very large budget to eventually
[29:08.920 -> 29:10.460] to build something really great
[29:10.460 -> 29:12.120] and innovative on the technology side.
[29:12.120 -> 29:15.380] So I always loved being innovative.
[29:15.380 -> 29:17.940] When you're really innovative and breaking new ground,
[29:17.940 -> 29:20.300] you're able to track the world-class talent.
[29:20.300 -> 29:22.920] So probably one of the things that's most exciting
[29:22.920 -> 29:24.700] is not unlike in the sports world,
[29:24.700 -> 29:27.160] surrounding yourself with with a plus people
[29:27.380 -> 29:34.700] So if you're doing groundbreaking things and known we were I think known to be one of the more groundbreaking companies based in London
[29:34.700 -> 29:38.860] So we became a talent magnet. So what's really exciting is being a talent magnet
[29:38.860 -> 29:43.960] And so all the other things I think the customer growth the innovation, etc
[29:44.480 -> 29:49.520] all the other things, I think, the customer growth, the innovation, etc. The funding, fundraisers, the supplier deals, they all helped us get more talent
[29:49.520 -> 29:53.840] and there's nothing more energising than going to work every day with brilliant people.
[29:53.840 -> 29:54.960] Mason Yeah, of course.
[29:54.960 -> 30:00.160] Let's talk then about the groundbreaking things. What is the moment that you were most proud of
[30:00.160 -> 30:05.360] when it came to rewriting the rules of business and tech and entrepreneurship at this point?
[30:05.360 -> 30:07.360] What do you think about when I say that?
[30:07.360 -> 30:11.240] I mean, I think partly it was just that it was the fact it was so unusual then.
[30:11.240 -> 30:18.040] I think if we're going back then, it was to things like our, Martha and I both got on very well with our old boss at Spectrum Strategy Consultants
[30:18.040 -> 30:23.680] and when we told him we were going to try and build this business, he said, well, look, there's always a job for you.
[30:23.680 -> 30:28.480] Talking about the worst case, he said, give yourself six months because no one ever, who do you know
[30:28.480 -> 30:33.640] who's raised with a 30-page business plan with no real experience a million dollars,
[30:33.640 -> 30:37.640] which is what it was at the time. And we're like, oh, God, no one. We don't know anyone
[30:37.640 -> 30:43.640] who's done it. So I think part of it's got to be that breaking ground at the beginning.
[30:43.640 -> 30:47.920] But I think the other thing I was most proud of looking back is just that we
[30:47.920 -> 30:51.920] kept innovating, maybe too much actually, but hell, why not?
[30:52.960 -> 30:54.000] Why would it be too much?
[30:54.560 -> 30:55.320] Lack of focus.
[30:55.640 -> 30:55.960] Right.
[30:56.200 -> 30:56.920] Give us an example.
[30:56.960 -> 30:57.440] Yeah.
[30:57.560 -> 30:59.320] Um, voice recognition.
[30:59.800 -> 31:01.000] It's top popular today.
[31:01.400 -> 31:05.120] I think we built the first ever, very early 2000s,
[31:05.120 -> 31:07.520] first ever database you could talk to
[31:07.520 -> 31:09.240] to book hotels with your voice.
[31:10.720 -> 31:14.480] So my critics would argue it was probably a bit gimmicky.
[31:14.480 -> 31:16.080] I would argue it's building the future
[31:16.080 -> 31:19.420] before everyone else sees it, but to what benefit?
[31:19.420 -> 31:20.800] There are other bits of innovation I could say
[31:20.800 -> 31:23.760] which were core and strategic and where we did very well,
[31:23.760 -> 31:27.680] but I think there are some times where I could probably be accused of falling in love with
[31:27.680 -> 31:32.720] innovation for innovation's sake. That said, I think that's quite attractive to the right
[31:32.720 -> 31:35.840] type of talent who want to go to that sort of company.
[31:35.840 -> 31:40.840] But to me, there's a dichotomy here in what you're describing, because there's that need
[31:40.840 -> 31:45.920] to be innovative and be out there and demonstrating all the traits of an entrepreneur. And yet, Mae'r angen i fod yn innovatiwm a bod yno allan, a ddemonstreo'r holl ffyrdd o ddyniaidwyr,
[31:45.920 -> 31:49.480] ond dywedoddwch hefyd eich bod chi'n ddewis talent
[31:49.480 -> 31:52.280] i bobl dda iawn i ddod i weithio gyda chi,
[31:52.280 -> 31:55.920] a chreu diwylliant lle gall y bobl hynny ddod o'n ffyned,
[31:55.920 -> 31:58.520] ond yn y ffordd sy'n ei wneud mewn ffocws,
[31:58.520 -> 31:59.600] yn y ffordd o ddisgyblion,
[31:59.600 -> 32:01.760] mae'n sgiliau gwahanol hefyd.
[32:01.760 -> 32:04.880] A oeddwn i'n ddewis sut rydych chi'n rheoli'r digotomi
[32:04.880 -> 32:06.320] o'r ddau rôl hynny? Dwi ddim yn credu, rydyn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn, dwi ddim yn siŵr ein bod ni wneud popeth yn dda, skill set as well. Would you describe how you manage that dichotomy of those two roles?
[32:06.320 -> 32:08.880] Yeah, look, I don't think, I think we were very young, so I'm not sure we did everything
[32:08.880 -> 32:13.360] perfectly, but I think it's true that when you walked in, and that was something I was
[32:13.360 -> 32:18.720] proud of, if you walked into the last minute office in the heyday, there was this incredible
[32:18.720 -> 32:24.400] young, buzzy energy and dynamism. And partly that was because we were giving young people
[32:24.520 -> 32:30.040] energy and dynamism and partly that was because we were giving young people ridiculous responsibility. We were putting them under crazy pressure so we
[32:30.040 -> 32:35.420] had unrealistic impatient deadlines which motivated the best people and made
[32:35.420 -> 32:39.320] the less good people, the average people, leave. And I think that's an important
[32:39.320 -> 32:42.520] lesson I often talk about and don't always practice as much now as I would
[32:42.520 -> 32:47.440] like to. Can you do that today? I think you can. I think it takes more courage
[32:48.080 -> 32:52.720] and more strength of your conviction. I think one needs to, that's why I do speak now more
[32:52.720 -> 32:57.520] about these examples of Netflix is the most obvious one where there's that sort of culture
[32:58.080 -> 33:05.000] of radical trust but when you're not good enough, then you go.
[33:05.220 -> 33:06.700] And paying people to leave,
[33:06.700 -> 33:08.220] do you remember that from the Netflix story?
[33:08.220 -> 33:10.500] They would pay, and I've spoken at my companies,
[33:10.500 -> 33:11.780] my head of HR hates it, I'm like,
[33:11.780 -> 33:14.600] guys, if you're not loving your everyday job,
[33:14.600 -> 33:16.740] please can we pay you to go?
[33:16.740 -> 33:19.340] Because if you're not loving it, you shouldn't be here.
[33:19.340 -> 33:21.500] We are doing such fun, we're so lucky in my world
[33:21.500 -> 33:24.020] to be working with technology in, as you say,
[33:24.020 -> 33:29.800] one of the most exciting times to be in technology. That if you don't love it every day, then go, you're
[33:29.800 -> 33:31.040] average, I don't want you working for me.
[33:31.040 -> 33:34.600] Have we not reached a point though where there's a bit too much entitlement, where people think
[33:34.600 -> 33:37.680] they deserve to have a job and you can't possibly get rid of me unless you go through all of
[33:37.680 -> 33:42.760] the proper hoops and, you know, there is a risk. There are lots of podcasts or influencers
[33:42.760 -> 33:45.160] or social media accounts that will tell everyone
[33:45.160 -> 33:49.440] that they can do everything and they shouldn't ever take no for an answer. There's some dangerous
[33:49.440 -> 33:51.960] messaging I think out there, isn't there, these days for people?
[33:51.960 -> 33:53.400] Toby Greenwood Yeah, I think that. And part of the messaging,
[33:53.400 -> 33:57.360] I think, is, to be blunt, and this is why I'm very unfashionable, I'm going to say,
[33:57.360 -> 34:06.960] is about work-life balance. To me, high performance, excellence in your job or in working is when it doesn't feel like a job.
[34:07.760 -> 34:13.200] So, may we all be so lucky is the fair counterpoint. Try and find that job that you love
[34:13.200 -> 34:18.000] every day because you'll be so much better at it. And so I think that's the challenge when we're
[34:18.000 -> 34:23.040] talking about this work-life balance thing is if people hate their job, I get it. And it's a toil
[34:23.040 -> 34:27.020] and a struggle and then you only want to work nine to five. But, you know, when you're working in
[34:27.020 -> 34:30.520] these tech businesses that are globally competitive, that should be able to
[34:30.520 -> 34:34.400] attract the best of the best of the best, why settle for people who want nine to
[34:34.400 -> 34:38.800] five? Toby But that's only, is that only because nine to five didn't work for you, right?
[34:38.800 -> 34:43.100] You were able to do 24-7. Ian Yeah, I was seven days a week. I mean, I have this bad
[34:43.100 -> 34:50.880] example. I was crazy. Toby But that's fine, Yeah. But you know, like, survivorship bias, it worked for me, it should work for everyone. I do believe that you can be
[34:51.320 -> 34:57.600] exceptional and also be an exceptional father and an exceptional husband and exceptional son and friend. For me,
[34:57.600 -> 35:02.120] it slightly depends on where you are in your journey. Yeah. Now, I'm still
[35:02.760 -> 35:05.000] ridiculously on email most of the time,
[35:05.060 -> 35:08.280] and yes, my wife and family think,
[35:08.280 -> 35:09.800] you know, would try and stop it a bit,
[35:09.800 -> 35:11.120] and sometimes my wife would go on holidays
[35:11.120 -> 35:12.920] where there's no reception.
[35:12.920 -> 35:15.560] But I do still take my holidays now and all of that stuff,
[35:15.560 -> 35:16.840] and I do try on weekends,
[35:16.840 -> 35:19.000] and I think I'm present for my kids,
[35:19.000 -> 35:20.720] so yes, you're right,
[35:20.720 -> 35:26.320] but I'm no longer 27 years old starting my first business.
[35:26.320 -> 35:30.680] I just think to be able to do that and win
[35:30.680 -> 35:33.040] and still have balance is super hard.
[35:33.040 -> 35:34.480] I was just talking this morning about a friend of mine
[35:34.480 -> 35:37.120] who says, who's founded $4 billion companies.
[35:37.120 -> 35:38.720] And he says, if he's listening,
[35:38.720 -> 35:40.240] he says he only works in the mornings.
[35:40.240 -> 35:41.760] Has only ever worked in the mornings
[35:41.760 -> 35:42.760] and the afternoons he chills.
[35:42.760 -> 35:44.360] It's not like one of these books where they go,
[35:44.360 -> 35:46.300] do three minutes of deep work one day a week,
[35:46.300 -> 35:50.400] and you'll achieve everything. The problem is, I think those things are playing into
[35:50.400 -> 35:53.700] what some people will have come to this podcast for, right?
[35:53.700 -> 35:56.500] They would have seen your name on the front of this podcast, you know,
[35:56.500 -> 36:00.500] someone who has invested in and founded unicorn businesses
[36:00.500 -> 36:06.160] and been one of the most celebrated entrepreneurs in the UK in
[36:04.160 -> 36:07.360] the last 20 years, they will have come
[36:06.160 -> 36:09.720] to this thinking, great, I'll find some
[36:07.360 -> 36:11.760] shortcuts, I'll get some quick answers.
[36:09.720 -> 36:13.640] I think the only shortcut I could give them
[36:11.760 -> 36:16.400] in a sense is this point of credibility.
[36:13.640 -> 36:18.080] The more credible you are, the more money
[36:16.400 -> 36:19.200] you can raise, the more great people you
[36:18.080 -> 36:21.200] can have around you. So that's the
[36:19.200 -> 36:23.640] circle you can get. There's a bit for
[36:21.200 -> 36:26.160] me, Ben, where this idea of finding a
[36:23.640 -> 36:45.160] job that you love almost loads an Mae yna rhan i mi, Brent, lle mae'r syniad o ddod o hyd i swydd y byddwch chi'n ei wneud yn llwyr, yn llai, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, yn llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwybr, in llwy and the idea is that the longer lasting, more durable relationships are often
[36:45.160 -> 36:51.560] take time to percolate and to eventually grow. So what I'm interested in is what
[36:51.560 -> 36:56.560] are the kind of questions that you'd encourage people listening to this to
[36:56.560 -> 37:01.520] ask themselves until they eventually do find something that they love? Because it
[37:01.520 -> 37:07.460] might not be an immediate love at first sight moment. Partly I guess it's what I try and do when I think I'm interviewing okay is say
[37:08.400 -> 37:10.060] What do you love doing every day?
[37:10.060 -> 37:12.340] So I'll ask people what do they love doing every day?
[37:12.340 -> 37:18.000] And then I'll describe the job and we'll try and go through it and say look if this isn't what you're gonna
[37:18.000 -> 37:21.980] Love then it's not for you. We should we should get to that quickly
[37:21.980 -> 37:28.280] I think there's another thing I was thinking about as coming to this, that there's something about status
[37:28.280 -> 37:29.560] we need to try and get away from,
[37:29.560 -> 37:31.280] status versus happiness.
[37:31.280 -> 37:33.560] So I think that what I mean by that is
[37:33.560 -> 37:35.720] I think some people will think of a job
[37:35.720 -> 37:38.200] that they'd rather work in say,
[37:38.200 -> 37:39.600] forgive me, but say an investment bank
[37:39.600 -> 37:42.360] and they hate finance or they hate numbers or whatever,
[37:42.360 -> 37:44.020] but they'd rather do that so they can tell their friends
[37:44.020 -> 37:48.280] they work in a high prestige job versus working in, I
[37:48.280 -> 37:51.680] don't know, let me say, in a shoe shop selling shoes that they're brilliant at
[37:51.680 -> 37:54.040] and they love it and they love people, they love engaging and they can be the
[37:54.040 -> 37:56.800] best of the best and eventually they could run that shoe shop and set up a
[37:56.800 -> 37:59.800] whole chain and you know, so because they love it so much and they're so good at
[37:59.800 -> 38:03.760] it. So it's that idea I think partly I think the wrong thing is, so some of the
[38:03.760 -> 38:08.620] mistakes we're making is that in society people are being pushed to go to high status jobs rather
[38:08.620 -> 38:10.420] than jobs they can be brilliant at.
[38:10.420 -> 38:13.900] So I think it's do the ones you're brilliant at, play this game, and in my little I'll
[38:13.900 -> 38:18.100] talk about how I read French and German literature so I could get into Oxford.
[38:18.100 -> 38:21.100] I played the game because if I'd done maths and English I wouldn't have gone in.
[38:21.100 -> 38:24.460] You know, I just knew I'd be good enough to get in for that subject but not for another
[38:24.460 -> 38:27.000] subject. I wouldn't have gone in. You know, I just knew I'd be good enough to get in for that subject, but not for another
[38:27.000 -> 38:28.120] subject.
[38:28.120 -> 38:36.120] As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns.
[38:36.120 -> 38:41.880] But a deep voice doesn't sell B2B, and advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
[38:41.880 -> 38:45.560] That's why if you're a B2B marketer, you should use LinkedIn ads.
[38:45.560 -> 38:47.480] LinkedIn has the targeting capabilities
[38:47.480 -> 38:50.740] to help you reach the world's largest professional audience.
[38:50.740 -> 38:53.320] That's right, over 70 million decision makers
[38:53.320 -> 38:54.880] all in one place.
[38:54.880 -> 38:57.320] All the big wigs, then medium wigs,
[38:57.320 -> 39:00.640] also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[39:00.640 -> 39:02.160] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[39:02.160 -> 39:03.920] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus
[39:03.920 -> 39:06.000] on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[39:06.000 -> 39:13.000] So, does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest voice in the world?
[39:13.000 -> 39:15.000] Yes. Yes, it does.
[39:15.000 -> 39:19.000] Get started today and see why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be.
[39:19.000 -> 39:23.000] We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
[39:23.000 -> 39:26.460] Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit.
[39:26.460 -> 39:28.760] That's linkedin.com slash results.
[39:28.760 -> 39:30.800] Terms and conditions apply.
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[41:41.640 -> 41:47.760] Let's talk about status. What did it do to your status when lastminute.com finally had
[41:47.760 -> 41:52.680] that thing that everyone dreams of if they're an entrepreneur? You floated, you did an IPO,
[41:52.680 -> 41:57.840] and within a week the share price starts to drop and suddenly, you know, what was wonderful
[41:57.840 -> 42:02.080] doesn't seem so wonderful anymore. I'm interested in how you dealt with that personally because
[42:02.080 -> 42:07.320] we can't talk about entrepreneurship with not talking about the ability to deal with failure and struggle.
[42:07.320 -> 42:08.320] Yeah, struggle.
[42:08.320 -> 42:12.000] I won't call it failure, but struggle, yes.
[42:12.000 -> 42:15.120] So I think it is a sort of very strange time.
[42:15.120 -> 42:20.120] So we're sort of February, March 2000, the dot-com bubbles in full flow.
[42:20.120 -> 42:23.800] You know, Martha and I would walk into a party of very important people and people would
[42:23.800 -> 42:27.840] be looking around saying, are they here? And, you know, and we were very young.
[42:27.840 -> 42:29.200] Less good than you think.
[42:29.200 -> 42:34.280] Honestly, I sort of worked out, I did psychoanalyze myself after and say, actually, I don't care
[42:34.280 -> 42:35.280] about that.
[42:35.280 -> 42:39.880] What I cared about then, to your point, is I was so obsessed by the business that I cared
[42:39.880 -> 42:41.120] about how we were doing.
[42:41.120 -> 42:46.000] I looked at the numbers every 15 minutes via SMS at the time on my mobile phone,
[42:46.000 -> 42:48.720] conversion rates by sector, by category.
[42:48.720 -> 42:51.240] So all the time, so this absolute obsessiveness.
[42:51.240 -> 42:52.080] So unhealthy, isn't it?
[42:52.080 -> 42:53.880] So unhealthy, but what I love,
[42:53.880 -> 42:57.000] but the obsessiveness meant the whole team was so obsessed.
[42:57.000 -> 43:00.240] So they were all on the top of their game
[43:00.240 -> 43:03.400] trying to work out how we could keep the customers happy.
[43:03.400 -> 43:08.100] So what we did is when the share price tanked by 1.95% down,
[43:08.100 -> 43:10.900] it was focusing on the numbers and the customers
[43:10.900 -> 43:14.500] and how we would prove the cynics wrong was another motivating force.
[43:14.500 -> 43:18.900] It's like there were so many people so cynical about what we were doing
[43:18.900 -> 43:22.900] that there is some motivation about how to prove them wrong.
[43:22.900 -> 43:26.300] What I then engineered eventually, yes, when I sold last minute.com,
[43:26.300 -> 43:28.780] I then thought, well, what do I care about?
[43:28.780 -> 43:31.140] What was it that was good about running this public company
[43:31.140 -> 43:32.180] and what was bad?
[43:32.180 -> 43:37.180] And I decided the bit I'd miss most strangely was relevance.
[43:37.260 -> 43:38.100] I said, when I sold last minute.com,
[43:38.100 -> 43:39.000] I said, what I wanted to say,
[43:39.000 -> 43:41.500] good morning, good night to my kids, to your earlier point.
[43:41.500 -> 43:44.140] And then what I wanted to do was the love of a deal,
[43:44.140 -> 43:44.960] doing deals.
[43:44.960 -> 43:46.860] I still want to have a job where I could do deals because I love that
[43:47.060 -> 43:51.240] But then it was also what I thought I'd missed from last minute home was the relevance
[43:51.460 -> 43:56.000] But I'm by that I think I really mean is that I was able to meet interesting people all the time
[43:56.360 -> 43:59.040] That's when I started doing all these other things in my life
[43:59.040 -> 43:59.800] So I thought okay
[43:59.800 -> 44:04.440] This is gonna keep me being able to pick up the phone to some of the most interesting people in the world
[44:04.840 -> 44:10.320] Because that's something that I think to keep me being able to pick up the phone to some of the most interesting people in the world, because that's something that I think will keep me energised and young
[44:10.320 -> 44:11.320] for a longer time.
[44:11.320 -> 44:13.360] Toby Curran Can we just talk then, I just want to get into
[44:13.360 -> 44:19.360] this IPO moment. It's still seen as the holy grail of entrepreneurship, right? What's it
[44:19.360 -> 44:27.540] actually like when suddenly this exciting, dynamic, quick to react business is then involving
[44:27.540 -> 44:31.740] bankers and banks decisions and you know people putting pressure on you who
[44:31.740 -> 44:34.980] weren't there before to make sure that you're driving things in a direction
[44:34.980 -> 44:37.940] that perhaps wasn't the reason why you started in the first place.
[44:37.940 -> 44:43.300] Quickly going back to our IPO, so what happened? We time it perfectly to some extent in
[44:43.300 -> 44:45.060] that it's March 2000,
[44:45.060 -> 44:49.660] NASDAQ is at the all-time high, that's the date we price our IPO.
[44:49.660 -> 44:54.380] We price it after a shortened roadshow by an increase during that 10-day period,
[44:54.380 -> 44:57.260] more than anyone in Europe has ever increased the price.
[44:57.260 -> 45:02.260] We go public 18 months from launch, faster than I think still anyone has ever gone public.
[45:02.260 -> 45:05.640] We are 43 times oversubscribed.
[45:05.640 -> 45:08.680] And then on the day you'd watch the stock,
[45:08.680 -> 45:11.480] it goes up, I can't remember, a bit, but not enough.
[45:11.480 -> 45:14.440] We know that night, we're not celebrating Martin and I,
[45:14.440 -> 45:17.440] I'm like, oh my God, we've been priced for perfection.
[45:17.440 -> 45:19.280] This is really scary.
[45:19.280 -> 45:21.200] And then we see it keeps going down.
[45:21.200 -> 45:22.640] The stock just keeps going down.
[45:22.640 -> 45:25.360] But that said, we knew we'd raised £100
[45:25.360 -> 45:32.000] million plus. So we had firepower and armoury and the ability to sort of pull through with
[45:32.000 -> 45:36.320] persistence. But your point about the IPO, yes, I think there are lots of things that
[45:36.320 -> 45:41.160] are troubling for an IPO for a company so young. And I think we could talk about Made.com,
[45:41.160 -> 45:45.360] which did an IPO. So Made.com, I co-founded a company called made.com that
[45:45.360 -> 45:49.200] was spun out of one called MyDeco that didn't do brilliantly because we got the DNA of the
[45:49.200 -> 45:53.160] founding team a bit wrong. So I thought, okay, let's spin out this other one, made.com, which
[45:53.160 -> 45:59.400] the one clever business model point was direct from factory furniture to consumer, cutting
[45:59.400 -> 46:09.200] out the middleman, no wastage, 50% cheaper, and sounds like a beautiful thing So get made goes 10 years plus in 400 million pounds of sales
[46:10.000 -> 46:13.600] Then they all decide the investors that they want to take the thing public. I
[46:14.120 -> 46:19.920] Then say actually I've been through the trauma. I've got the scars of taking a company public. It's your lives
[46:19.920 -> 46:23.520] I'm a small shareholder by now. I'm like you guys want to do it. I'm not gonna stop you
[46:23.520 -> 46:25.140] But by the way, I'm a small shareholder by now. I'm like you guys want to do it. I'm not gonna stop you. But by the way I'm leaving the board
[46:25.140 -> 46:26.840] I'm not going to go through
[46:26.840 -> 46:28.280] the pain of
[46:28.280 -> 46:33.400] What could happen because I think the problem with the furniture business is you're only as good as yourselves last week
[46:33.400 -> 46:39.460] And of course things can turn now as history says that I was quite lucky not to be on the board because the company
[46:39.480 -> 46:44.320] Raised a hundred million again and went bankrupt within 18 months of going public
[46:45.680 -> 46:50.440] 100 million again and went bankrupt within 18 months of going public because they changed the business model and they bought a lot of stock from a model that was almost no stock
[46:50.440 -> 46:53.880] buying. They spent the 100 million mostly on buying stock, which they couldn't sell
[46:53.880 -> 46:58.240] when COVID lifted. It's not that these people were stupid running the company. I don't say
[46:58.240 -> 47:04.520] that at all. I think they were partly pushed into a false view of what the company could
[47:04.520 -> 47:06.280] be worth. So they went public
[47:06.280 -> 47:10.320] and thought, okay, you know, the last private round was like, I don't know, four or 500
[47:10.320 -> 47:13.360] million. So if we're going to go public, we need to get it to 2 billion. How do we do
[47:13.360 -> 47:18.560] that? Well, we pump this thing for growth and we put all our chips on red and we go.
[47:18.560 -> 47:23.320] And then when that bet doesn't come in, they don't go, they go bust. Partly some of that
[47:23.320 -> 47:25.560] is to do with the nature of public
[47:25.560 -> 47:29.560] markets and venture capitalists at that time in the cycle. Late stage venture capitalists
[47:29.560 -> 47:35.320] say, you've got to bet it all on this. And similarly for Last.com IPO, I do remember,
[47:35.320 -> 47:38.040] you have to put these, when you go public, you have to put these really punchy forecasts
[47:38.040 -> 47:50.000] in. And so one year, our forecasts were to grow 100%. We grew that year only 80%. To which point, my chairman
[47:50.000 -> 47:55.180] is paying for blood, the market's paying for blood, our share price is tanking even more,
[47:55.180 -> 47:59.280] and my chairman basically is like, oh Brent, you said it was going to be this, it wasn't,
[47:59.280 -> 48:02.980] you should go. So it can be tough.
[48:02.980 -> 48:08.000] Wow. Almost like predicting your growth is an exact science and that 80% isn't brilliant anyway.
[48:08.000 -> 48:10.000] Yeah, yeah.
[48:10.000 -> 48:17.000] You made a comment about the DNA of your founding team, where you said you didn't quite get it right.
[48:17.000 -> 48:22.000] Tell us about the DNA that you've learned of a team and what works well.
[48:22.000 -> 48:27.760] So I think what works best, and again, forgive me again for those people who are over 30,
[48:27.760 -> 48:30.840] listening, I'm ageist about this still.
[48:30.840 -> 48:32.440] The reason why there was some magic
[48:32.440 -> 48:34.320] at Last Minute Come in the early days
[48:34.320 -> 48:38.680] is we hired smart, hungry, young people
[48:38.680 -> 48:41.000] who this was career defining.
[48:41.000 -> 48:43.400] So when we hired experienced people
[48:43.400 -> 48:46.360] from the travel industry, for example, almost inevitably
[48:46.360 -> 48:50.740] ended in failure. Not every time. There were lots of them that were just hired from these
[48:50.740 -> 48:54.640] big companies like Thomas Cook and Tuohy and whatever, who were sort of 40 plus. They were
[48:54.640 -> 48:58.900] careerists in the travel industry. They couldn't adapt with us. They didn't have the energy.
[48:58.900 -> 49:06.960] They didn't have the work ethic and we had to fire them. So I think that it was the young, brilliant, hungry people
[49:06.960 -> 49:10.680] who had minimal experience, but maximum adaptability
[49:10.680 -> 49:12.040] that helped us build a culture.
[49:12.040 -> 49:14.000] And you knew that those people
[49:14.000 -> 49:15.600] would also hire brilliant people.
[49:15.600 -> 49:17.240] They weren't gonna suffer full-sleight.
[49:17.240 -> 49:19.440] They only wanted to work with amazing people.
[49:19.440 -> 49:21.160] So what's the killer question you ask
[49:21.160 -> 49:23.920] when you meet someone and they wanna be part of a team
[49:23.920 -> 49:28.400] that you're running and you want to find out the truth about them?
[49:28.400 -> 49:33.760] I think it's how obsessive they are. Yeah. And I remember one venture capitalist in a
[49:33.760 -> 49:37.400] slightly different context but saying to me that the way he, when he's trying to
[49:37.400 -> 49:41.600] invest in someone, which is similar, an entrepreneur, he'll talk to the
[49:41.600 -> 49:44.200] entrepreneur a little bit about the company, right, and then he'll try and say
[49:44.200 -> 49:45.000] to the entrepreneur, oh so tell me about your family, oh so little bit about the company, right? And then he'll try and say to the entrepreneur,
[49:45.000 -> 49:46.000] Oh, so tell me about your family.
[49:46.000 -> 49:47.000] Oh, so tell me about your hobbies.
[49:47.000 -> 49:49.000] And the best entrepreneurs, he said,
[49:49.000 -> 49:51.000] will get him off that subject and back to the business.
[49:51.000 -> 49:53.000] They don't want to talk about anything else.
[49:53.000 -> 49:58.000] There's a bit of that in those interviews where you're trying to see how much they want it.
[49:58.000 -> 50:03.000] The other bit is the obvious one of how prepped are they?
[50:03.000 -> 50:07.520] Have they really done their
[50:04.320 -> 50:08.880] homework? I'd love to talk about your, the
[50:07.520 -> 50:10.080] letter to your younger self that you
[50:08.880 -> 50:12.880] wrote, because you know we've just spoken
[50:10.080 -> 50:14.880] about a period in your career where it was
[50:12.880 -> 50:17.440] right at the beginning, you were young,
[50:14.880 -> 50:21.040] risk-taking, loving the journey, and I
[50:17.440 -> 50:22.640] think sometimes to stop, reflect, look at
[50:21.040 -> 50:24.160] how you first started is really
[50:22.640 -> 50:26.800] valuable for people listening to this, so
[50:24.160 -> 50:28.920] would you mind if we took you through each of the points from your letter to your younger
[50:28.920 -> 50:33.900] self? So we've kind of touched on this one, but gaining credibility early on. Your key
[50:33.900 -> 50:40.200] point for people who would love to do something incredible, what's the number one rule do
[50:40.200 -> 50:42.960] you think for, the number one tip for gaining that credibility quickly?
[50:42.960 -> 50:48.000] Toby Richardson I think one way is just to be excellent at something. So it could be something really
[50:48.000 -> 50:52.400] quite niche and trivial in the scheme of things, but actually if you can just take a side and say,
[50:52.400 -> 50:58.240] look, I did this thing and I'm like world class at it, then I think that that makes a big difference.
[50:58.960 -> 51:03.120] And that's partly shows how they can think out of the beaten track. It partly shows their level of
[51:03.120 -> 51:08.840] obsessiveness, dedication, but also to your point about how you give that quid pro quo back, right? Because
[51:08.840 -> 51:12.840] then there's always something they've got to educate somebody else about.
[51:12.840 -> 51:15.360] Toby Are you too humble to tell us what you're
[51:15.360 -> 51:16.360] world-class at?
[51:16.360 -> 51:19.520] Jason Oh God, I don't know what I am world-class
[51:19.520 -> 51:28.480] at. I think now I've gotten better at, I guess, inspiring people, hopefully, at having a vision
[51:28.480 -> 51:33.580] and getting people excited and being a little bit maverick about it. So the fact I'll say
[51:33.580 -> 51:37.980] things that are not, forgive me, but sort of politically correct, you know, I'll say
[51:37.980 -> 51:42.780] things like I really believe them. But I think actually, sorry, when I go back to what somebody
[51:42.780 -> 51:47.000] wrote in a magazine called CIO magazine, my former CTO wrote,
[51:47.000 -> 51:52.000] the thing about Brent is he cares so much.
[51:52.000 -> 51:58.000] So this was a CTO last minute writing that, look, you could see that if something was going wrong, I was almost going to cry.
[51:58.000 -> 52:06.280] So I think he said that he said that that passion and how much I cared shone through to the team and that
[52:06.280 -> 52:11.680] imparted a sense of caring to other people, of giving a damn about what we're
[52:11.680 -> 52:14.680] doing and what we're trying to build. So that idea of being on a mission together
[52:14.680 -> 52:19.600] to build something great. Very good. Which in turn leads to your second point
[52:19.600 -> 52:24.720] which is about creating an exceptional culture. We've spoken to lots of business
[52:24.720 -> 52:25.120] leaders and sports coaches that talk about culture as a competitive advantage about creating an exceptional culture. We've spoken to lots of business leaders
[52:25.120 -> 52:29.480] and sports coaches that talk about culture as a competitive advantage, if
[52:29.480 -> 52:32.760] you get it right. What are your lessons on that?
[52:32.760 -> 52:38.200] I think, you know, I was, somebody was, as we dug up this letter, somebody said to me
[52:38.200 -> 52:42.440] look Brent, how many of these are we living by now? Because it's one thing to
[52:42.440 -> 52:45.300] say them, it's another thing to live them, even when you've
[52:45.300 -> 52:48.260] written them and say you've lived some of your core principles by them. And I think
[52:48.260 -> 52:53.460] the one way to your point on culture, where I think our teams make mistakes, and I'll
[52:53.460 -> 52:57.420] say this, maybe partly because I'm chairman of a lot of stuff, not CEO, so it's a bit
[52:57.420 -> 53:05.640] harder, is being too impatient when you hire. So what that means is you fill a job with someone
[53:05.640 -> 53:08.800] who isn't quite the right cultural fit
[53:08.800 -> 53:10.520] because you wanna fill it.
[53:10.520 -> 53:14.560] Or you do the mistake of hiring experience over talent.
[53:14.560 -> 53:16.220] It's this line that I love repeating
[53:16.220 -> 53:19.480] is that you should rent experience and hire talent.
[53:19.480 -> 53:23.080] And I think there are times when we haven't done that
[53:23.080 -> 53:24.680] and we should have.
[53:24.680 -> 53:29.920] And it's this impatient thing that's so hard when you are running a business and trying
[53:29.920 -> 53:33.000] to move fast and you're like, okay, you'll miss next quarter's numbers if you don't fill
[53:33.000 -> 53:34.080] this job.
[53:34.080 -> 53:37.800] But long-term, the culture is a long-term thing, right?
[53:37.800 -> 53:40.860] You build that early DNA and it's very hard to break.
[53:40.860 -> 53:42.800] So don't break it early on.
[53:42.800 -> 53:47.000] If you break it by compromising, it's almost impossible to get it back to that dynamic culture you want.
[53:47.000 -> 53:55.000] But it might, short term, you might be playing the calculation which is, well my numbers will be better next quarter, but it doesn't work long term.
[53:55.000 -> 54:10.680] Because you've got a really interesting position, haven't you? That having, like, now being chair of different businesses, and you've had that chairman shouted at you for only 80% growth. What lessons would you give to your CEOs and leaders about
[54:10.680 -> 54:14.400] how to communicate up to you then where they might have to come and say listen
[54:14.400 -> 54:19.080] Brent we don't want to hit the growth targets that we're projecting but if we
[54:19.080 -> 54:22.920] wait a while we've got to get the right cultural fit in that'll mean.
[54:22.920 -> 54:25.760] Yeah well I had this conversation this morning and it was a very open conversation with my
[54:25.760 -> 54:27.360] CEO and it's absolutely that.
[54:27.360 -> 54:30.760] It's about, A, it's the open dialogue, frequent dialogue.
[54:30.760 -> 54:32.480] They always say good news travels fast.
[54:32.480 -> 54:36.680] I think bad news should travel faster if you're going to build trust.
[54:36.680 -> 54:37.680] So that's important.
[54:37.680 -> 54:41.920] And then I think it is being on the same page on the long term versus short term conversation
[54:41.920 -> 54:44.280] and to the point again about the public markets.
[54:44.280 -> 54:47.640] The other thing we didn't highlight, the worst thing about public markets is they're so short
[54:47.640 -> 54:53.080] term. But the joy of being a building a private company is so long as you've got cash, then
[54:53.080 -> 54:54.440] you can think long term.
[54:54.440 -> 54:56.200] Trevor Burrus Controversy can be good.
[54:56.200 -> 54:57.200] Matthew Feeney Yes.
[54:57.200 -> 54:58.200] Trevor Burrus Why?
[54:58.200 -> 55:00.320] Matthew Feeney Yeah, so that I did write down because I think
[55:00.320 -> 55:05.520] when you're in the heart of controversy, you think it's a problem.
[55:05.520 -> 55:10.360] So this was partly I'm referring to the debate, which became a sort of pub question.
[55:10.360 -> 55:13.760] Are those Muppets running lastminute.com, are they absolute idiots?
[55:13.760 -> 55:14.920] Or are they doing something clever?
[55:14.920 -> 55:19.440] And it was with hindsight, when we were living that, we should have just said, how amazing
[55:19.440 -> 55:20.800] people are debating this.
[55:20.800 -> 55:24.640] You know, the fact that there are some cynics about us only means we're more talked about,
[55:24.640 -> 55:26.800] which actually means more customers will find us
[55:26.800 -> 55:27.720] and buy our products.
[55:27.720 -> 55:28.980] So that's a good thing.
[55:28.980 -> 55:32.600] So courting controversy is something I've tried to do
[55:32.600 -> 55:35.640] more and more when building consumer brands.
[55:35.640 -> 55:36.480] I think-
[55:36.480 -> 55:37.320] How do you do that?
[55:37.320 -> 55:39.620] You go to the edge, you don't quite step over it.
[55:39.620 -> 55:41.600] But I used to say to my marketing directors,
[55:41.600 -> 55:44.080] if you're arrested, I'll get you out, it'll be fine.
[55:44.080 -> 55:49.600] Well, great advice. If you just go really far to the line, I don't know, if you just cross it just a little bit,
[55:49.600 -> 55:53.480] then that's okay. And we did cross the line a bit. I'll give you one small example if
[55:53.480 -> 56:00.120] it's interesting. We screen scraped, which means we pulled in flights and seats from
[56:00.120 -> 56:05.680] EasyJet and Ryanair by pulling the data from their websites, which technically is the breach
[56:05.680 -> 56:09.920] of the Computer Misuse of Information Act, which is a criminal penalty, I think. But
[56:09.920 -> 56:14.640] we did it anyway, so we could put them into our dynamic packaging engine and bundle them
[56:14.640 -> 56:19.480] with hotels. Expedia couldn't do that, our competitor at the time, because they were
[56:19.480 -> 56:24.280] blue chip American, you know, whatever. Whereas we were just like, to hell with it. We'll
[56:24.280 -> 56:26.200] try it. What's the worst possible thing that can happen?
[56:26.200 -> 56:29.200] And are we doing something amazing for customers that we could
[56:29.200 -> 56:32.200] happily stand up and say, yeah, this is okay. And then
[56:32.200 -> 56:35.200] one of the other anecdotes on that was just after we sold the company. I remember
[56:35.200 -> 56:38.200] Michael O'Leary of Ryanair sent in his team
[56:38.200 -> 56:41.200] to our team and they said, what are you doing? How are you doing this?
[56:41.200 -> 56:44.200] And whatever. And they went in and they saw what our team was doing and they said,
[56:44.200 -> 56:51.200] oh, this is fine. No problem. Um, and then they took out full-page national ad saying last minute. I can't thieves marking up our
[56:53.040 -> 56:58.360] So the next one then is about we've touched on it briefly Brembo get the right DNA for your team
[56:58.920 -> 57:01.560] Would you break down the DNA for us?
[57:02.280 -> 57:05.200] Really? It's about people who want to set the culture you want.
[57:05.200 -> 57:10.000] So, it's some of these cultural values of, obviously, integrity is a key one.
[57:10.000 -> 57:14.320] I actually put charm somewhere, but the other one is just simply it's,
[57:14.320 -> 57:17.600] let's not say raw intelligence, because maybe that sounds a bit too limiting,
[57:17.600 -> 57:19.520] but let's say being really savvy.
[57:19.520 -> 57:22.160] If you are learning and curious, actually, sorry,
[57:22.160 -> 57:25.880] there's something we haven't talked about today, is curiosity. So, that's the other thing, actually, I should have said, when screening for talent. Actually, sorry, that's something we haven't talked about today is curiosity.
[57:25.880 -> 57:27.440] So that's the other thing, actually, I should have said,
[57:27.440 -> 57:29.240] when screening for talent, culture, DNA,
[57:29.240 -> 57:30.480] all these things we've been talking about,
[57:30.480 -> 57:32.400] we would still have a mission from all of us.
[57:32.400 -> 57:34.560] Curiosity is what we should be talking about too.
[57:34.560 -> 57:39.560] And then you want workaholics and you want tenacious people.
[57:39.780 -> 57:43.120] This is their career defining moment.
[57:43.120 -> 57:45.380] They're in this now because they can see this as
[57:45.380 -> 57:49.620] their pivotal step. That maybe they'll only be with you for a couple of years
[57:49.620 -> 57:53.020] and they'll launch something else and that's fine too if they give you an
[57:53.020 -> 57:57.820] incredible few years and they hire in their stead other great people, they've
[57:57.820 -> 58:01.940] still helped you perpetuate that positive DNA and culture. Toby – And I'm a little bit
[58:01.940 -> 58:08.080] worried what I'm about to say next will sound twee, but where's kindness and decency and
[58:08.080 -> 58:14.360] humanity and all of that. I think integrity and charm, right? I mean, I just add I think integrity and charm, I think cover that.
[58:14.760 -> 58:17.960] I'm not sure about kindness actually.
[58:18.560 -> 58:23.480] Kindness is the school motto of my kids school, and I think it's important there.
[58:25.820 -> 58:30.320] the school motto of my kid's school, and I think it's important there, but I sort of actually think, you know, politically and correctly now, that actually being tough at
[58:30.320 -> 58:36.960] work and it's the thing I say I took away from the Steve Jobs bio, reading that, is
[58:36.960 -> 58:43.040] that when he was the toughest and, you know, being pretty obnoxious with people, I'm not
[58:43.040 -> 58:45.120] advocating doing it to that extent,
[58:45.120 -> 58:50.400] but you can take away from that, that him being tough with unrealistic demands on people,
[58:50.400 -> 58:55.680] being sort of super demanding, having crazy deadlines, not being so American and saying to
[58:55.680 -> 59:00.320] everyone, oh well done guys, that's all every week, let's say, aren't you all heroic? It's like, no,
[59:00.320 -> 59:04.080] you once this month you did something amazing and he says it to you and he means it.
[59:04.100 -> 59:04.440] You once this month you did something amazing and he says it to you and he means it
[59:10.780 -> 59:15.980] And then then the a players again say great. This is my place because there's no bullshit around it There's no like everyone's amazing. It's like no when he says you're amazing, you know, it's true
[59:15.980 -> 59:23.000] And I think that's how you create that culture of people who who win that said I do
[59:23.240 -> 59:24.480] Believe that you know
[59:24.480 -> 59:25.240] One of the other things that
[59:25.240 -> 59:27.920] last minute I always say when I thought it was gonna work was when I would see
[59:27.920 -> 59:32.000] people outside on a Friday night in a pub together. That may not have been
[59:32.000 -> 59:34.520] because they were the kindest to each other, but what it did mean is they were
[59:34.520 -> 59:38.840] friends. I think kindness is a debate for work actually.
[59:38.840 -> 59:44.000] Toby Eisenberg Yeah, I don't offer it as an answer. I'm interested in...
[59:44.000 -> 59:49.640] Rupert Murdoch But look, I'm not, but I agree with you in sort of arrogant, no, obnoxious, no, no jerks,
[59:49.640 -> 59:53.560] you know, all of those things. So I think there's a limit to how far you can go to some
[59:53.560 -> 59:56.760] of these sort of pushy characteristics, right?
[59:56.760 -> 01:00:01.040] Yeah, because I, you mentioned the Steve Jobs one and I haven't read that biography. I think
[01:00:01.040 -> 01:00:04.600] at times it comes across like a bit of a dick. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of people
[01:00:04.600 -> 01:00:07.320] that don't get a voice that would have been burnt
[01:00:07.320 -> 01:00:12.280] out or badly damaged by being spoken to in that way. And I sometimes
[01:00:12.280 -> 01:00:18.160] worry about we sort of lionize characters like that, these strident, belligerent
[01:00:18.160 -> 01:00:22.560] leaders. Toby Van Kessel I know, but I then thought, you know, I used to hold myself back at
[01:00:22.560 -> 01:00:26.400] last minute from being more strident and obnoxious, you know.
[01:00:26.400 -> 01:00:28.640] But then I sort of read that book and sort of thought, well, maybe I should have gone
[01:00:28.640 -> 01:00:29.640] a bit harder.
[01:00:29.640 -> 01:00:30.640] Sure.
[01:00:30.640 -> 01:00:34.880] Maybe it would have been okay because when the going gets tough, the tough get going.
[01:00:34.880 -> 01:00:35.880] Yeah.
[01:00:35.880 -> 01:00:37.360] You know, so maybe there is a bit of that.
[01:00:37.360 -> 01:00:39.360] And we can't argue with his success, right?
[01:00:39.360 -> 01:00:40.360] No, no, exactly.
[01:00:40.360 -> 01:00:41.360] But I agree with you.
[01:00:41.360 -> 01:00:43.920] There are some people who get it burnt out along the way, but that's those are the people
[01:00:43.920 -> 01:00:48.880] who, to be honest, in your culture, talking about the culture point,
[01:00:48.880 -> 01:00:51.280] they probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. It's brutal.
[01:00:51.280 -> 01:00:53.720] Toby Vayne What about the people though that are incredibly
[01:00:53.720 -> 01:01:00.200] talented, can do amazing things for your business, can offer that cognitive diversity that every
[01:01:00.200 -> 01:01:08.800] great business needs, but they actually can't, they don't have much personal resilience, they can't deal with the aggressive nature that some
[01:01:08.800 -> 01:01:15.520] businesses adopt. I would worry in my business I would lose a great person, you
[01:01:15.520 -> 01:01:19.400] know. I think it's, I guess it's the point is if you do have a culture which
[01:01:19.400 -> 01:01:22.720] despite all this demandingness there is culture of respect, of excellence. Of
[01:01:22.720 -> 01:01:31.040] course there are always ways to structure this, but I guess if I'm seeming overzealous in this, it's slightly
[01:01:31.040 -> 01:01:36.240] reacting to what you alluded to earlier, which is I do sometimes see pockets of entitlement
[01:01:37.200 -> 01:01:43.200] and people who, as you say, think the world owes them a chill, relaxed job and they can coast.
[01:01:43.200 -> 01:01:51.200] And what I think I'm trying to say is that companies that win can't have many coasters. Toby Greenwood Yeah, and I think we are all
[01:01:51.200 -> 01:01:55.120] aligned on that. Nothing comes for free. You know, you can't have this, like,
[01:01:55.120 -> 01:02:00.120] you can't see Steve Jobs, you can't see Brent Hoberman, and you can't have what
[01:02:00.120 -> 01:02:03.840] they have, like, this shit wasn't free. This kind of plays into your next
[01:02:03.840 -> 01:02:09.280] point really, which is, it's okay to be unreasonable within reason. And this reminds me of a conversation,
[01:02:09.280 -> 01:02:15.080] have you heard of Adam Grant? He's an author, lecturer, thinker from America. He joined
[01:02:15.080 -> 01:02:21.120] us on the podcast and he spoke about disagreeable givers. So you can disagree with people in
[01:02:21.120 -> 01:02:27.760] the workplace, but in a positive way. And he also gave us a great bit of advice that, you know, when you want more from someone, you don't just demand more, you say,
[01:02:28.320 -> 01:02:33.360] I think so much of you, and I think you're so talented, and you can do so much, that I'm
[01:02:33.360 -> 01:02:37.520] telling you that's not good enough, because of you. It's the great way, I think, and it plays
[01:02:37.520 -> 01:02:41.280] really nice into what we're talking about, that maybe this is the best way to look at
[01:02:42.080 -> 01:02:46.840] dealing with people in 2023, because in the best, with the best will in the world, it's different to 2003.
[01:02:46.840 -> 01:02:50.100] Toby Rees Yeah, I think telling people to strive for
[01:02:50.100 -> 01:02:56.880] excellence and that they shouldn't be satisfied with average is a great way to put it. But
[01:02:56.880 -> 01:03:02.440] equally, having that culture where everybody is urging each other to be excellent is important.
[01:03:02.440 -> 01:03:07.240] And this is what I'm trying to refer to as I think, if you let that break, I don't know how to fix it.
[01:03:07.240 -> 01:03:09.720] Toby Vayne So taking people on the journey with you is
[01:03:09.720 -> 01:03:10.720] your next point.
[01:03:10.720 -> 01:03:12.680] Richard Walker Yeah, this is the, I guess this is the vision
[01:03:12.680 -> 01:03:13.680] point, right?
[01:03:13.680 -> 01:03:14.680] Toby Vayne Yeah.
[01:03:14.680 -> 01:03:15.920] Richard Walker Building towards something that is so exciting,
[01:03:15.920 -> 01:03:20.480] and nowadays more than back then, it's vision and purpose, right? I think what is wonderful
[01:03:20.480 -> 01:03:30.320] about, and now I am going to sound a bit more modern, is working for purpose is great. Helping to make the world a better place in business is a great synergy and I
[01:03:30.320 -> 01:03:34.760] think the best businesses in the world now are doing that and they're doing that partly
[01:03:34.760 -> 01:03:38.120] because it's a good thing to do, but partly because if they want to be talent magnets
[01:03:38.120 -> 01:03:42.640] they know it's the only way to do it, to get the best people in the world have choices
[01:03:42.640 -> 01:03:47.160] and they want to work for companies with amazing visions where they can be proud of where they work because they're going to
[01:03:47.160 -> 01:03:49.320] fix some of these big problems we have in the world.
[01:03:49.320 -> 01:03:54.240] So let me take you back to 1996 then because when you were describing what you like where
[01:03:54.240 -> 01:03:59.600] you could see the internet going I was reminded of that famous Schopenhauer quote that talent
[01:03:59.600 -> 01:04:04.900] hits a target nobody else can do genius it's a target nobody else can see. So when you
[01:04:04.900 -> 01:04:09.440] talk about visions of being able to almost look and go I can see that this
[01:04:09.440 -> 01:04:13.320] is going to be huge in this particular industry how do you go about putting
[01:04:13.320 -> 01:04:17.240] yourself in a position to spot these trends to be able to recognize
[01:04:17.240 -> 01:04:21.800] opportunities it's it's surrounding yourself I mean I like this saying that
[01:04:21.800 -> 01:04:24.600] you're the you are the function of the five people you spend the most time with
[01:04:24.600 -> 01:04:29.440] so I think that's something so you want other people you can spar with. I think it's
[01:04:29.440 -> 01:04:35.440] also understanding, you know, which are the trends now that are hype and which are reality. So I
[01:04:35.440 -> 01:04:41.920] would say an example in today is generative AI, which I think most people now know about chat GPT
[01:04:41.920 -> 01:04:45.240] and all these things. You know, I think that's real. And I think so people now know about chat GPT and all these things. I think that's real.
[01:04:45.240 -> 01:04:48.680] And I think so trying to spend time understanding
[01:04:48.680 -> 01:04:51.240] what opportunities that's going to create
[01:04:51.240 -> 01:04:52.760] and make sense to see the future.
[01:04:52.760 -> 01:04:55.100] And then I also think it's a combination of technologies,
[01:04:55.100 -> 01:04:56.840] trying to think, look in a simple,
[01:04:56.840 -> 01:04:59.360] well, look at all the changes in healthcare
[01:04:59.360 -> 01:05:02.680] and health technology with big data and AI.
[01:05:02.680 -> 01:05:04.840] Say, okay, this is gonna create opportunities
[01:05:04.840 -> 01:05:05.440] or augmented reality plus training. What's that gonna do? health technology with big data and AI. Say, okay, this is going to create opportunities, or
[01:05:10.240 -> 01:05:14.720] augmented reality plus training, what's that going to do? So, I think the future is pretty obvious in that sense. And I think it's also, it's that expression that it's already here, but it's
[01:05:14.720 -> 01:05:19.040] unevenly distributed. So, then I think travels are great. Somebody very smart who worked with me is
[01:05:19.040 -> 01:05:23.600] going to travel the world now, go to Japan and whatever. I'm sure she will come back with saying,
[01:05:23.600 -> 01:05:28.600] I've seen this amazing thing somewhere over there, over there in the world and we should bring
[01:05:28.600 -> 01:05:34.520] it back. So sometimes I think it is a point of just stepping back, taking time
[01:05:34.520 -> 01:05:37.720] off for a few months. If you really want to think of your next big idea, it is
[01:05:37.720 -> 01:05:41.800] that shower time, right? But extend it by a thousand times. What I love about this
[01:05:41.800 -> 01:05:46.240] conversation is that when we talk about
[01:05:44.240 -> 01:05:47.880] your past and your experiences, you're
[01:05:46.240 -> 01:05:51.080] fascinating. When we talk about the
[01:05:47.880 -> 01:05:53.640] future, like, your eyes light up, you start, you're
[01:05:51.080 -> 01:05:56.200] animate, like, you are as curious now
[01:05:53.640 -> 01:05:57.360] about the world and our future as you
[01:05:56.200 -> 01:05:59.000] would have been as that sort of
[01:05:57.360 -> 01:06:00.960] dynamic person in their mid-twenties,
[01:05:59.000 -> 01:06:03.000] right? Yeah, absolutely. Look, I had one
[01:06:00.960 -> 01:06:04.640] of the most exciting- I was half an hour
[01:06:03.000 -> 01:06:06.160] late, only half an hour, my wife's
[01:06:04.640 -> 01:06:06.480] listening, for dinner on Friday night
[01:06:06.480 -> 01:06:07.640] because I was having a conversation
[01:06:07.640 -> 01:06:09.120] with the founder of Stability AI,
[01:06:09.120 -> 01:06:12.760] which is one of these big, large language model companies,
[01:06:12.760 -> 01:06:14.320] which is generative AI.
[01:06:14.320 -> 01:06:15.600] And I couldn't stop, you know,
[01:06:15.600 -> 01:06:17.520] it was just so exciting and fascinating.
[01:06:17.520 -> 01:06:19.420] This is someone who I think is gonna change the world.
[01:06:19.420 -> 01:06:21.600] And thinking about how and the permutations
[01:06:21.600 -> 01:06:22.760] and how you go about doing that,
[01:06:22.760 -> 01:06:24.920] that's energizing and quite honestly,
[01:06:24.920 -> 01:06:26.620] a privilege to be able to spend time thinking about it.
[01:06:26.620 -> 01:06:29.340] How do we keep feeding our curiosity?
[01:06:29.340 -> 01:06:31.020] How do you do it?
[01:06:31.020 -> 01:06:34.500] I'm lucky, I guess, in that I can meet people.
[01:06:34.500 -> 01:06:35.660] So it's this point.
[01:06:35.660 -> 01:06:37.160] That's where events are important.
[01:06:37.160 -> 01:06:38.940] So part of my life is this founders forum,
[01:06:38.940 -> 01:06:40.420] the series of events.
[01:06:40.420 -> 01:06:44.500] And what we can do there is I can just read about,
[01:06:44.500 -> 01:06:46.080] I read a lot about stuff.
[01:06:46.080 -> 01:06:49.920] I spend time investing in things like LinkedIn
[01:06:49.920 -> 01:06:51.200] and Twitter and stuff where they're learning
[01:06:51.200 -> 01:06:52.800] about what I'm interested in and Google News
[01:06:52.800 -> 01:06:53.800] and all these things.
[01:06:53.800 -> 01:06:55.920] So they're actually really pretty good for me,
[01:06:55.920 -> 01:06:58.140] but I think it's because I've invested time in them again.
[01:06:58.140 -> 01:07:00.600] So they're popping up with new things and new businesses
[01:07:00.600 -> 01:07:03.980] and new ideas that are relevant to me.
[01:07:03.980 -> 01:07:05.720] Then I'm lucky I can read about them.
[01:07:05.720 -> 01:07:10.240] I can reach out to the founder on LinkedIn and then get engaged. I would go to interesting
[01:07:10.240 -> 01:07:14.320] people on Twitter or LinkedIn and find out who they're connected to and just follow them.
[01:07:14.320 -> 01:07:18.040] You know, because I'm like, okay, if this brilliant person is following all these people,
[01:07:18.040 -> 01:07:19.040] go do it.
[01:07:19.040 -> 01:07:23.540] Final one, people who doubt you can't see the future that you can. The first response
[01:07:23.540 -> 01:07:27.440] to that I wrote was, how do you convince them The first response to that I wrote was how do you convince them and the second response I wrote was well should
[01:07:27.440 -> 01:07:29.760] you bother convincing them? Where do you sit on that?
[01:07:29.760 -> 01:07:34.300] Toby No I think you shouldn't convince, try and convince some of your doubters
[01:07:34.300 -> 01:07:37.340] immediately because often that can be toxic energy as you've sort of alluded
[01:07:37.340 -> 01:07:41.060] to in our Twitter point. It's sort of like some, it's sort of like having, if
[01:07:41.060 -> 01:07:43.840] you're a Brexit or Remain, having the debate with someone. It's just like
[01:07:43.840 -> 01:07:47.120] you're gonna use up so much energy. If you try and, if I try and
[01:07:47.120 -> 01:07:50.500] persuade Jacob Rees-Mogg to vote Remain, you know, that's probably not a great use
[01:07:50.500 -> 01:07:56.280] of my time. However, if I can prove it, I think that's the point. Is you just focus
[01:07:56.280 -> 01:08:00.920] on this point I alluded to, is like proving the cynics wrong. Just go and do it.
[01:08:00.920 -> 01:08:05.160] Toby Cox Fantastic. Man, I've loved this conversation. We've now reached the point
[01:08:05.160 -> 01:08:07.440] where we just do some quickfire questions that we do with all our guests.
[01:08:07.440 -> 01:08:11.160] What are the three non-negotiables, Brent, that you and the people around you
[01:08:11.160 -> 01:08:19.680] would ideally buy into? Integrity, charm and grit. Nice. What's your greatest
[01:08:19.680 -> 01:08:24.320] strength and your biggest weakness? My greatest strength probably is this blind
[01:08:24.320 -> 01:08:27.200] optimism, that I like just peering into the
[01:08:27.200 -> 01:08:31.860] future and just jumping over cliffs and trying to build a parachute on the way down. Greatest
[01:08:31.860 -> 01:08:37.880] weakness probably is I can be overly obsessive, sometimes.
[01:08:37.880 -> 01:08:51.280] What's the thing people get wrong or misunderstand most about you that frustrates you a bit? I think for me probably it would be this point of, if somebody calls me a networker, I sort
[01:08:51.280 -> 01:08:56.560] of find that slightly belittling to be honest. So I think because I do have a broad network
[01:08:56.560 -> 01:09:01.080] and I think investing in people is important, but I don't think it's what defines me. I
[01:09:01.080 -> 01:09:05.520] think what defines me is an approach to business and using my
[01:09:05.520 -> 01:09:09.920] brain to do that, not who I happen to know. Toby What advice would you give to a
[01:09:09.920 -> 01:09:15.320] teenage Brent just starting out? I think I'd give a teenage Brent the advice about
[01:09:15.320 -> 01:09:20.120] confidence. I just say, however you can, build that confidence, whatever it takes
[01:09:20.120 -> 01:09:25.840] to find it, because that will help you do so much in life. I was, as I said, a very
[01:09:25.840 -> 01:09:30.720] shy teenager. I was lucky that sort of got fixed. And people get very surprised now when
[01:09:30.720 -> 01:09:35.520] I say, you know, I was 16, I was super shy. They're like, what, you? Really? So I think
[01:09:35.520 -> 01:09:40.880] there is that introvert, extrovert in all of us. And I think I was probably an introvert.
[01:09:40.880 -> 01:09:42.680] And now I've probably trained myself not to be.
[01:09:42.680 -> 01:09:45.800] And your final
[01:09:43.520 -> 01:09:47.680] message really to our high-performance
[01:09:45.800 -> 01:09:49.120] listeners, what's the one thing you'd like
[01:09:47.680 -> 01:09:51.160] to leave ringing in their ears after
[01:09:49.120 -> 01:09:54.000] this fascinating conversation which we're
[01:09:51.160 -> 01:09:55.800] very grateful for? I think I don't want
[01:09:54.000 -> 01:09:57.600] people to be put off by the idea of
[01:09:55.800 -> 01:10:00.600] entrepreneurship. I don't want to, the
[01:09:57.600 -> 01:10:02.280] fact that we've said it's hard doesn't
[01:10:00.600 -> 01:10:04.160] mean that it's not going to be right for
[01:10:02.280 -> 01:10:10.360] a lot of the listeners here. And I don't think I've highlighted enough how rewarding and exhilarating entrepreneurship
[01:10:10.360 -> 01:10:12.480] is when it goes right.
[01:10:12.480 -> 01:10:17.240] And the joy of building something from nothing is incredibly satisfying.
[01:10:17.240 -> 01:10:19.040] Thank you so much for your time.
[01:10:19.040 -> 01:10:20.040] Well, thank you guys.
[01:10:20.040 -> 01:10:21.040] Thank you.
[01:10:21.040 -> 01:10:22.040] Thank you.
[01:10:22.040 -> 01:10:23.040] Thank you.
[01:10:23.040 -> 01:10:25.200] Damien, Jake, you know, I think it's easy for people to just go, oh, some of the stuff in the future. Thank you.
[01:10:25.200 -> 01:10:29.840] Damien. Jake. You know, I think it's easy for people to just go, oh, some of the stuff
[01:10:29.840 -> 01:10:35.880] that Brent said was outdated, you know, like 24-7 being addicted to business, right? But
[01:10:35.880 -> 01:10:40.840] there is actually a truth that needs to be spoken about working for yourself, about being
[01:10:40.840 -> 01:10:52.120] an entrepreneur, about setting up a business. And I think that too many channels and podcasters and influencers see a value in telling you
[01:10:52.120 -> 01:10:55.660] that anyone and everyone can do it, because the fact they believe anyone
[01:10:55.660 -> 01:10:59.000] everyone can do it gets them follows, gets them likes, gets them shares, gets
[01:10:59.000 -> 01:11:03.520] them retweets. But it's not the truth. And I think actually what we've
[01:11:03.520 -> 01:11:06.960] just heard from Brent is
[01:11:04.560 -> 01:11:09.800] the unfiltered truth about
[01:11:06.960 -> 01:11:11.600] entrepreneurship that might not apply to
[01:11:09.800 -> 01:11:13.920] everyone, but that everyone has to hear.
[01:11:11.600 -> 01:11:15.120] Could you resonate with a lot of it in
[01:11:13.920 -> 01:11:17.360] terms of, you know, when you think about the
[01:11:15.120 -> 01:11:19.400] origins of Whisper that you and Sonil
[01:11:17.360 -> 01:11:21.640] set up? Yeah, I mean it was
[01:11:19.400 -> 01:11:23.040] interesting, you know, because you look at
[01:11:21.640 -> 01:11:25.320] something like what I've tried to do with
[01:11:23.040 -> 01:11:28.240] high-performance, I'm doing it much later than he says most entrepreneurs should. Do it before you've
[01:11:28.240 -> 01:11:30.720] got a mortgage, do it before you've got kids, do it before you've got married.
[01:11:31.520 -> 01:11:36.880] I've done all of my stuff at a weird time. So we set Whisper up and three years later,
[01:11:37.600 -> 01:11:40.880] just as it was starting to explode and get big, we had our first kid.
[01:11:40.880 -> 01:11:45.280] We then have high performance and, you know, I've, there's huge ambitions for
[01:11:45.280 -> 01:11:48.680] high performance being a global brand and not just a podcast. Yeah, I'm doing it at
[01:11:48.680 -> 01:11:54.360] a time where I have got two kids and a wife and a TV presenting job and a production company
[01:11:54.360 -> 01:11:58.160] and I'm the chairman of a charity and the vice president of another charity.
[01:11:58.160 -> 01:11:59.160] Toby And two dogs.
[01:11:59.160 -> 01:12:01.400] Jason Oh, yeah, and the dogs. So there is an argument
[01:12:01.400 -> 01:12:05.040] that you can't do everything, but then I think we have to be
[01:12:05.040 -> 01:12:06.800] a bit more nuanced about what this is, right?
[01:12:06.800 -> 01:12:11.540] So with something like Whisper, I'm a founder, I'm not the CEO.
[01:12:11.540 -> 01:12:15.860] With something like High Performance, I'm probably closer to being a CEO and to making
[01:12:15.860 -> 01:12:22.160] decisions every day, but with an amazing team, where there is also an actual CEO who takes
[01:12:22.160 -> 01:12:23.160] on a huge load.
[01:12:23.160 -> 01:12:25.440] And I think that that for me is
[01:12:25.440 -> 01:12:28.160] what's really important and I think we have to understand that you can do
[01:12:28.160 -> 01:12:33.200] amazing things but it's a team sport. Having people around you is the single
[01:12:33.200 -> 01:12:38.320] most important thing. Yeah I liked it and I liked it because not all of it is
[01:12:38.320 -> 01:12:43.700] comfortable to hear. You know like the example they exchanged, the
[01:12:43.700 -> 01:12:45.000] loading of Steve Jobs,
[01:12:45.000 -> 01:12:50.640] ac mae'n dweud, ie, yn anhygoel, ond mae hefyd yn y cost i lawer o bobl
[01:12:50.640 -> 01:12:54.360] na'n ni'n siarad amdano, o bobl sydd wedi cael eu llwysu neu wedi eu llwythu
[01:12:54.360 -> 01:12:57.440] neu wedi cael eu gwneud yn ymlaen gan rywun fel hynny.
[01:12:57.440 -> 01:13:00.560] Ond rwy'n credu bod yna ddarn iawn yn clywed rhai o bobl yn ymwneud â'i gyflawni
[01:13:00.560 -> 01:13:04.360] a dweud i chi pam mae yna ffynonell o ffynonell yn ddrews.
[01:13:04.360 -> 01:13:05.160] Oherwydd, ar y pwynt, rwy'n credu y gallwch gael unrhyw dynamic, rhywfaint o gyffredin, champion it and tell you why that kind
[01:13:02.480 -> 01:13:06.160] of mindset is valuable. Because by the
[01:13:05.160 -> 01:13:08.440] way I think you could have a really
[01:13:06.160 -> 01:13:10.680] dynamic, really exciting, really
[01:13:08.440 -> 01:13:12.840] hard-driving, really creative business
[01:13:10.680 -> 01:13:14.600] and kindness can be high up the agenda. I
[01:13:12.840 -> 01:13:16.480] do believe that. He doesn't and that's
[01:13:14.600 -> 01:13:18.680] absolutely fine. And I, you know, again it's a
[01:13:16.480 -> 01:13:20.680] reminder because I'm sure some people
[01:13:18.680 -> 01:13:23.120] will go, oh you know, I didn't agree with
[01:13:20.680 -> 01:13:25.200] what Brent said. Great, let's have
[01:13:23.120 -> 01:13:25.160] disagreeable givers. Let's have
[01:13:25.160 -> 01:13:30.280] diversity of thought. Let's bring people into your world who don't think and act like you
[01:13:30.280 -> 01:13:33.560] because I tell you right now, your social media channels have been hand-picked by you,
[01:13:33.560 -> 01:13:37.200] therefore you've only picked the ones that you like and agree with, right? So this stuff's
[01:13:37.200 -> 01:13:43.400] good. People shouldn't be scared of confrontation or disagreement. People should embrace it.
[01:13:43.400 -> 01:13:49.000] Yeah, because it, you know, like we challenged gwneud yn ffyrdd antagonistig,
[01:13:49.000 -> 01:13:55.000] roedd yn dweud wrthym sut i ddeall eich syniadau eich gwirionedd a chynyddu fy nghefndirau fy hun.
[01:13:55.000 -> 01:13:59.000] Ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n sôn i'r holl ddechrau o'r hyn rydyn ni'n ceisio ei wneud yma ar y podcast.
[01:13:59.000 -> 01:14:06.880] Nid ydym yn gofyn argyfwngau anodyneidd a you there's a formula or an algorithm to high performance.
[01:14:06.880 -> 01:14:11.240] It's the opposite, you have to find your own definition and your own pathway and
[01:14:11.240 -> 01:14:14.640] what Brent's offering us is just one path.
[01:14:14.640 -> 01:14:18.520] And I'm absolutely standing alongside him and championing him when he says that,
[01:14:18.520 -> 01:14:23.560] you know, it's not free. You know, you can want to be a successful entrepreneur but
[01:14:23.560 -> 01:14:24.160] guess what?
[01:14:24.160 -> 01:14:27.640] You can't go can want to be a successful entrepreneur, but guess what? You
[01:14:24.680 -> 01:14:30.080] can't go from A to F. You've got to go
[01:14:27.640 -> 01:14:31.680] through B, C, D and E and you've got to
[01:14:30.080 -> 01:14:35.840] fail and get knocked back and go a few
[01:14:31.680 -> 01:14:38.000] times again. There is no shortcut. Yeah.
[01:14:35.840 -> 01:14:40.560] But again, I think there's something there
[01:14:38.000 -> 01:14:41.960] that what you're describing was
[01:14:40.560 -> 01:14:45.240] a really powerful point that Ben spoke
[01:14:41.960 -> 01:14:45.240] about, which is patience. That's an
[01:14:45.240 -> 01:14:49.960] important lesson for all of us that it takes time. High performance isn't an
[01:14:49.960 -> 01:14:55.640] overnight success. I love that conversation. It was brilliant. Thanks mate.
[01:14:55.640 -> 01:14:59.080] Well Luke, huge thanks to you for listening to today's episode of the
[01:14:59.080 -> 01:15:02.040] High Performance Podcast. Don't forget we're coming on tour, we're touring
[01:15:02.040 -> 01:15:08.720] around the UK over the next few months. It's not just a live podcast, it's a live theatre show. It's going to be great fun. We're no doubt coming
[01:15:08.720 -> 01:15:13.840] somewhere near you. So if you want to get involved, just go to the highperformancepodcast.com
[01:15:13.840 -> 01:15:18.800] to get tickets, but please continue to spread the learnings you're taking from these conversations.
[01:15:18.800 -> 01:15:23.600] Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase those world-class basics.
[01:15:23.600 -> 01:15:25.200] Don't get high on your own supply.
[01:15:25.520 -> 01:15:30.880] Remain humble, curious, and empathetic and spread the messages from this podcast.
[01:15:31.080 -> 01:15:33.160] You spread it, we'll grow it.
[01:15:33.480 -> 01:15:38.120] And between us, we can hear from the most incredible guests over the next few years.
[01:15:38.760 -> 01:15:39.400] Thanks for listening.
[01:15:39.960 -> 01:15:46.000] Have a great day. ♪♪♪
[01:15:46.000 -> 01:15:51.000] ♪♪♪
[01:15:51.000 -> 01:15:56.000] ♪♪♪
[01:15:56.000 -> 01:15:59.000] ♪♪♪
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