E185 - Keir Starmer: My learnings from life, loss and love

Keir Starmer is the current Leader of the Labour Party. A self-described “undersharer”, Keir takes this opportunity with Jake and Damian to open up about his childhood, his leadership style and what it’s really like to be the Leader of the Opposition. As a big football fan, Keir shares what he has learnt from watching Arsenal play and why he has developed such a love for the game.

Discussing his career as a barrister, Keir shares his difficult experiences representing people on death row. He explores the current adversarial system in politics, how it really feels to speak in parliament and how Keir would change the system.

On a more personal note, they delve deep into Keir’s childhood. He shares how although his mum struggled with Still’s disease she was continually determined and courageous. He reminds himself, “if mum can get up, I can get up”. He shares with Jake and Damian what he would do differently when facing the death of his father and what he would tell his parents if they were alive today.

In this episode they discuss decision making in leadership, when to trust others' judgement and how to shut out the noise.

The purpose of The High Performance Podcast is to explore how high performers achieve their success and discover learnings for our listeners. We are not affiliated with any political party.

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Sure, here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript:

**Introduction:**

- The podcast episode features Keir Starmer, the current leader of the Labour Party in the United Kingdom.
- The hosts, Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes, engage in a candid conversation with Keir, exploring his childhood, leadership style, and aspirations for the future.
- Keir emphasizes the importance of understanding the person rather than focusing on political opinions.

**Keir Starmer's Childhood and Upbringing:**

- Keir grew up in a working-class family, with his father working in a factory and his mother as a nurse.
- His mother, despite being chronically ill with Still's disease, exhibited remarkable courage and resilience, inspiring Keir to adopt a similar mindset when facing challenges.
- Keir shares his regret for not expressing his feelings to his father before he passed away.

**Keir Starmer's Leadership Style and Decision-Making:**

- Keir describes his leadership approach as outcome-focused, emphasizing the achievement of difficult goals.
- He acknowledges that leadership styles can vary depending on the context and scale of the organization.
- Keir highlights the importance of seeking input from junior staff and valuing their perspectives to identify problems and solutions.
- He emphasizes the need to build trust with team members and empower them to make decisions.

**Challenges of Being a Politician in a Polarized Environment:**

- Keir expresses his discomfort with the adversarial nature of politics in the UK, particularly the Prime Minister's Questions and certain political TV shows.
- He believes that this confrontational approach hinders productive problem-solving and promotes short-term thinking.
- Keir advocates for a more collaborative approach, where different perspectives are considered to find common ground and drive meaningful change.

**Building a Strong Team:**

- Keir emphasizes the importance of surrounding himself with individuals who possess sound judgment and trustworthiness.
- He acknowledges that building trust takes time and involves careful evaluation of a person's character and decision-making abilities.
- Keir highlights the need to avoid "bullshitters" and values authenticity and self-awareness in his team members.

**Handling Criticism and Resilience:**

- Keir acknowledges the intense scrutiny and criticism that politicians face, particularly in the current polarized political climate.
- He describes the feeling of being "punched in the stomach" when experiencing significant setbacks, such as the loss of Hartlepool in 2021.
- Keir emphasizes the importance of resilience, shutting out negativity, and focusing on the ultimate goal to overcome challenges.
- He draws inspiration from his mother's unwavering courage in the face of adversity.

**Keir Starmer's Motivation for Entering Politics:**

- Keir reveals that he did not initially aspire to become an MP or a leader in politics.
- He attributes his decision to enter politics to a desire to make a positive impact on the country and improve the lives of millions of people.
- Keir stresses that his goal is not personal ambition but rather to establish a Labour government that will bring about positive change.

**Conclusion:**

- The podcast episode provides a comprehensive and insightful look into the life, experiences, and leadership philosophy of Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party in the UK.
- Keir emphasizes the importance of outcome-focused leadership, building trust, seeking diverse perspectives, and maintaining resilience in the face of challenges.
- He expresses his desire to create a more collaborative and less adversarial political environment to drive meaningful change for the benefit of the country.

This podcast episode features Keir Starmer, the current Leader of the Labour Party in the United Kingdom, in an open and insightful conversation with Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes. Keir shares his thoughts on leadership, his childhood experiences, and his journey from being a barrister to becoming the Leader of the Opposition.

**Key Points:**

- Keir describes himself as an "undersharer" but takes this opportunity to open up about his childhood, leadership style, and the challenges of being the Leader of the Opposition.

- Keir's mother, despite facing significant health issues, was a courageous and determined woman who instilled in him a strong sense of resilience and determination.

- Keir reflects on the adversarial nature of politics and the challenges of speaking in parliament, emphasizing the need for a more collaborative approach to decision-making.

- Keir shares his experiences as a barrister, including representing people on death row, which gave him a deep understanding of the importance of justice and the need for a fair and impartial legal system.

- Keir discusses the importance of decision-making in leadership, emphasizing the need to trust others' judgment and shut out unnecessary noise.

- Keir highlights the importance of work-life balance, spending time with his family, and engaging in activities like playing football to maintain a healthy perspective and well-being.

- Keir reflects on the relationship with his parents, particularly his father, and expresses regret for not expressing his love and appreciation more openly before their passing.

- Keir emphasizes the importance of respecting everyone, regardless of their background or occupation, and believes that dignity and respect are fundamental values that should be upheld.

- Keir shares his thoughts on imposter syndrome, acknowledging that he doesn't associate with it strongly, but recognizes the challenges and doubts that come with making difficult decisions in leadership positions.

- Keir draws parallels between his experiences as a football fan, particularly his support for Arsenal, and the challenges of leadership, highlighting the importance of focus, resilience, and the ability to learn from mistakes.

- Keir discusses the importance of knowing when to step away from a leadership role, emphasizing the need to recognize when one has reached the limits of their ability to contribute effectively.

- Keir reflects on the value of activities outside of work, such as playing football, as a means of escaping the pressures of leadership and maintaining a sense of balance and perspective.

- Keir emphasizes the importance of collaboration and teamwork in leadership, recognizing the value of diverse perspectives and the need to trust and rely on others.

- Keir concludes by highlighting the importance of staying true to one's values and principles, even in challenging circumstances, and the need to always strive to make a positive difference in the world.

# Podcast Summary: Keir Starmer: The High-Performance Podcast

## Introduction

- Keir Starmer, Leader of the Labour Party, opens up about his childhood, leadership style, and the challenges of being the Leader of the Opposition.
- Starmer describes himself as an "undersharer" and seeks to be more open and vulnerable in this interview.

## Early Life and Influences

- Starmer's mother, Jo, had Still's disease but remained courageous and determined throughout her life.
- Starmer's father's death taught him the importance of being there for others and taking responsibility.
- He emphasizes the importance of resilience and focus in achieving goals.

## Leadership and Politics

- Starmer believes in inclusive, determined leadership that looks out for everyone in the country.
- He identifies three non-negotiable behaviors for those around him: be there, don't bullshit, and respect.
- Starmer acknowledges that his lack of extroverted passion is sometimes misunderstood as a lack of deep passion for solving problems.

## Personal Reflections

- Starmer regrets not being able to walk back in on his father and not having his children know his mother at her best.
- He emphasizes the importance of knocking out the thought that something you want to achieve is not for someone like you.
- Starmer's golden rule for living a high-performance life is to eliminate the thought that you are not capable of achieving something.

## High-Performance Insights

- Starmer's emphasis on resilience, focus, and determination aligns with high-performance principles.
- His vulnerability in sharing personal experiences and challenges resonates with the audience.
- The interview highlights the value of understanding and empathizing with leaders, regardless of political affiliation.

[00:00.000 -> 00:10.400] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey, this is High Performance, and this time we welcome Sakhir Starmer.
[00:10.400 -> 00:13.200] Being leader of the Labour Party or leader of the opposition is a bit like being the
[00:13.200 -> 00:17.720] England manager, where everybody can do your job better than you. Everybody's got an opinion
[00:17.720 -> 00:21.040] on your job that you should be doing, I wouldn't have played him at left back or don't know
[00:21.040 -> 00:25.320] what that's all about. I know what difficult decisions are and I know they have to be taken.
[00:25.320 -> 00:26.660] You cannot have a situation where you say,
[00:26.660 -> 00:28.660] well, that's too difficult, I'm gonna walk away from it.
[00:28.660 -> 00:29.760] That isn't leadership.
[00:30.960 -> 00:33.380] My mum was very, very ill all of her life
[00:33.380 -> 00:37.500] and she had this amazing courage
[00:37.500 -> 00:40.020] and she would always get back up.
[00:40.020 -> 00:43.100] Somehow she would get back up, get back to her feet.
[00:43.100 -> 00:46.320] And so when I'm in that moment, I just,
[00:46.320 -> 00:49.880] there's a bit of me that thinks if my mum can get up,
[00:49.880 -> 00:50.800] I can get up.
[00:52.320 -> 00:55.600] I didn't grow up thinking I would be,
[00:55.600 -> 00:57.720] or particularly wanting to be an MP.
[00:58.800 -> 01:01.080] It's not about Keir Starmer walking through the door
[01:01.080 -> 01:01.960] at number 10.
[01:01.960 -> 01:03.840] Push to one side what you can push to one side,
[01:03.840 -> 01:09.120] focus on what you're trying to achieve and remember it isn't about you because when you're being subject to that kind of
[01:09.520 -> 01:12.880] Criticism it feels very personal. I
[01:13.560 -> 01:15.740] Don't regret very much in life
[01:17.440 -> 01:24.460] But last time I saw my dad he was in hospital died and I walked away
[01:25.000 -> 01:27.480] He was in hospital, died, and I walked away.
[01:29.360 -> 01:31.120] And I knew he was gonna die, and I didn't turn around to go back
[01:32.440 -> 01:35.320] and tell him what I thought, and I should have done.
[01:39.160 -> 01:42.280] Okay, so look, let's just front up right at the very top.
[01:42.280 -> 01:45.620] We know that this episode will be divisive, okay,
[01:45.620 -> 01:49.860] because it's about politics and politics is incredibly divisive. But if there's one calling
[01:49.860 -> 01:55.300] card of the High Performance Podcast, it's that this podcast is about understanding.
[01:55.300 -> 02:01.100] It's not about opinion. So do you know what, regardless of your political persuasion, how
[02:01.100 -> 02:08.000] can it ever be a bad thing to know more and understand more about the man who could be the next British Prime Minister?
[02:08.000 -> 02:27.440] Over the next hour or so you're going to hear Sarkia talking about his upbringing, the way he parents, how he leads, how he builds teams, the mistakes he's made, the challenges he faces, and of course his hopes for the future. Now I want to be really clear, okay, no topics were off limits. Myself and Professor Damien Hughes went at this interview
[02:27.440 -> 02:29.440] as we do every single other conversation
[02:29.440 -> 02:31.280] on the High Performance Podcast,
[02:31.280 -> 02:34.080] just with an interest to understand the person.
[02:34.080 -> 02:36.320] In fact, that was the only rule.
[02:36.320 -> 02:40.960] This was a conversation about a person, not about politics.
[02:40.960 -> 02:43.200] So listen, I want you to do something
[02:43.200 -> 02:45.740] that we talk about so often on this podcast.
[02:45.740 -> 02:53.440] Leave your preconceptions at the door, open your mind and join me in welcoming Keir Starmer,
[02:53.440 -> 02:58.900] the leader of the opposition, the leader of the Labour Party, and potentially the next
[02:58.900 -> 03:03.480] leader of Great Britain to the High Performance Podcast.
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[04:47.000 -> 04:48.600] Mint Mobile for details. Well, Kier, welcome to High Performance.
[04:48.600 -> 04:49.600] Thank you very much.
[04:49.600 -> 04:54.080] Let's just be sort of really clear at the top what this is about. This is a conversation
[04:54.080 -> 05:00.600] about a person, right? Not a political conversation, no talk about policy, no point scoring, nothing
[05:00.600 -> 05:02.080] like that. We're not in Westminster now.
[05:02.080 -> 05:03.080] This sounds very good.
[05:03.080 -> 05:09.000] This is just the truth really about who you are, where you've come from and where you would one day love to be.
[05:09.000 -> 05:10.000] Does that sound okay?
[05:10.000 -> 05:11.000] That sounds good.
[05:11.000 -> 05:17.000] Good. So to that end, I read an interview recently actually with your deputy Angela Rayner and she said,
[05:17.000 -> 05:20.000] she overshares but Kia undershares.
[05:20.000 -> 05:25.700] So, first of all, how do you feel having a conversation like this? I'm getting used to it.
[05:25.700 -> 05:31.200] It's the sort of thing that I felt very uncomfortable about, if I'm honest, a few years ago.
[05:31.200 -> 05:36.000] I do think it's really interesting to explore more where people come from.
[05:36.000 -> 05:40.000] And, you know, I think some of the things that Angela said about oversharing and unsharing
[05:40.000 -> 05:44.500] are just a fascinating insight into different personalities.
[05:44.500 -> 05:47.000] Why do you think you sort of struggled with it early on?
[05:47.000 -> 05:53.000] Because I've never spent my life sort of analyzing what happened when I grew up,
[05:53.000 -> 05:59.000] what I felt about it. I'm asked now much more about my mum and dad than I ever was
[05:59.000 -> 06:06.360] in other jobs that I've done. And I've always been sort of very focused on an outcome, you know, what
[06:06.360 -> 06:12.020] am I trying to achieve? Where's the goal? How do we get to that goal? Rather than having
[06:12.020 -> 06:16.020] that conversation with myself about what does this all mean? I think Angela was spot on
[06:16.020 -> 06:20.960] by the way, it was such an interesting observation, it was a very Angela observation, she's got
[06:20.960 -> 06:26.420] brilliant antennae about her oversh and me under sharing and sort of holding
[06:26.420 -> 06:28.820] quite a lot back inside me.
[06:28.820 -> 06:33.980] And I think if you hold quite a lot back inside you, you don't particularly want to do podcasts
[06:33.980 -> 06:34.980] like this.
[06:34.980 -> 06:37.460] We're going to do that today.
[06:37.460 -> 06:41.120] Let's start the podcast with the way that we always do in your mind.
[06:41.120 -> 06:43.500] What is high performance?
[06:43.500 -> 06:48.060] I think high performance for me is about outcomes.
[06:48.060 -> 06:56.560] It's about whether you can achieve that outcome, usually difficult outcomes, and that is high
[06:56.560 -> 06:57.560] performance.
[06:57.560 -> 06:59.500] I think it's probably changed over the years.
[06:59.500 -> 07:04.620] I mean, I obviously came through being a lawyer, then ran a public service, now into politics.
[07:04.620 -> 07:05.320] So,
[07:05.320 -> 07:10.880] it changes, but it's definitely outcomes-focused for me. I mean, what I would say, just to
[07:10.880 -> 07:16.160] qualify that, and it's not really what a difference to what I think is important in terms of high
[07:16.160 -> 07:22.420] performance. What I've learned along the road, as it were, is you can achieve the same things
[07:22.420 -> 07:28.280] in different ways. So, I think there's a point in our lives where we think the only way to achieve something is to
[07:28.720 -> 07:33.520] Behave in this way or to be focused in that way the more I've seen people lead teams
[07:33.960 -> 07:38.760] The less convinced I am about that. I think you can achieve the same things in different ways different styles
[07:39.400 -> 07:44.640] The other thing I'd say is I think high performance is different in different places
[07:44.440 -> 07:48.920] thing I'd say is I think high performance is different in different places, it depends what people are doing. My sister for example is a care worker,
[07:48.920 -> 07:54.640] that's a high performance job in a completely different way. So for me it's
[07:54.640 -> 07:59.920] about outcomes, I think that reflects the job I'm doing rather than a
[07:59.920 -> 08:04.040] fixed view on what high performance is. Toby – So given the different roles that you've
[08:04.040 -> 08:07.940] had in your career Keir, from being a lawyer to leading a public service to
[08:07.940 -> 08:12.780] now being the head of a political party, what are the changes that you've
[08:12.780 -> 08:16.980] incorporated along those different roles that still allow you to get to those
[08:16.980 -> 08:24.100] outcomes? I think one of the biggest changes for me has been the scale. So
[08:24.100 -> 08:27.080] when I, to give you an example, when I started as a lawyer,
[08:27.080 -> 08:33.200] I was a barrister, therefore an advocate. So, you're pretty much on your own with quite
[08:33.200 -> 08:37.580] a small team that you would put together for the purpose of a particular case. You'd be
[08:37.580 -> 08:42.060] arguing a case on behalf of somebody. You probably have a team of maybe three or four
[08:42.060 -> 08:45.220] people totally focused on that case.
[08:45.220 -> 08:48.060] The team only stayed together for the purpose of that case.
[08:48.060 -> 08:51.700] It broke up afterwards because you go on to a different case.
[08:51.700 -> 08:55.420] So it's relatively small scale, very, very focused, only one outcome that matters, which
[08:55.420 -> 08:58.660] is the particular case, you're doing nothing broader than that.
[08:58.660 -> 09:03.060] And then moved on to sort of, if you like, strategic litigation, which is instead of
[09:03.060 -> 09:08.940] doing each case one by one, can't we sort of tackle an issue in a bigger way and form bigger teams?
[09:08.940 -> 09:13.280] But I'd say that there were two or three turning points, really important developments for
[09:13.280 -> 09:20.080] me. The first was having gone from sort of individual cases to strategic cases. One of
[09:20.080 -> 09:24.000] the strategic cases we did, for example, was challenging the death penalty in countries,
[09:24.000 -> 09:25.460] other countries around the world.
[09:25.460 -> 09:31.440] But then I went to work in Northern Ireland on implementing some of the Good Friday Agreement
[09:31.440 -> 09:39.960] proposals, which were, in my case, about changing the police, the Ulster Constabulary in Northern
[09:39.960 -> 09:41.920] Ireland into the police service in Northern Ireland.
[09:41.920 -> 09:47.140] So this was the idea that a different police service was going to emerge after the Good
[09:47.140 -> 09:52.760] Friday Agreement that would be much more transparent, human rights compliant, etc.
[09:52.760 -> 09:58.000] And up until that point in my life, I'd been the individual lawyer sort of railing against
[09:58.000 -> 09:59.480] the system from the outside.
[09:59.480 -> 10:05.920] And this was my first opportunity to work with the police and the policing board, changing from
[10:05.920 -> 10:11.220] the inside. And that was a really – how do you affect change? Different kind of leadership
[10:11.220 -> 10:14.760] altogether from the inside because then you've got to get people on your side. You've got
[10:14.760 -> 10:19.360] to influence them, change the way they think and change, in that case, the nature of the
[10:19.360 -> 10:23.240] police service in Northern Ireland. After that, I became Director of Public Prosecutions
[10:23.240 -> 10:30.600] and headed up the Crown Prosecution Service. And I had, you know, 7 or 8,000 staff. Now, that's a big thing when you're used to
[10:30.600 -> 10:35.740] having a team of four or five. And suddenly, I had to think, well, how do you influence
[10:35.740 -> 10:40.940] someone on the – this was – we had about 100 offices across England and Wales. How
[10:40.940 -> 10:47.500] do I influence what somebody does, the other side of the country? What are the leadership behaviors that have to change in order to do that?
[10:47.500 -> 10:50.260] So I think there are big changes along the way.
[10:50.260 -> 10:51.260] And then obviously…
[10:51.260 -> 10:52.400] Matthew Fletcher Can we dive into what they are before we move
[10:52.400 -> 10:53.400] to the next one?
[10:53.400 -> 10:55.420] Steve Marr Well, I think the first which was working
[10:55.420 -> 10:59.940] with the police service in Northern Ireland is how do you operate in such a way that you
[10:59.940 -> 11:04.780] can make sure that people have trust and confidence in what you're doing in such a way that they
[11:04.780 -> 11:09.720] will want to change the organization in which we're all working. That is a very different
[11:09.720 -> 11:16.320] skill to arguing a case in court. And then this question of how do you affect change
[11:16.320 -> 11:18.760] on a at scale, which was something which I hadn't done before.
[11:18.760 -> 11:22.080] Matthew – Were you bringing in the change or were you trying to get them to suggest
[11:22.080 -> 11:24.080] what the changes should be? What was the…
[11:24.080 -> 11:29.020] Steve – A bit of both. If you take the Crown Prosecution Service, I knew it had to change
[11:29.020 -> 11:33.940] and I wanted it to be much more open and transparent and that when we were taking decisions we
[11:33.940 -> 11:41.980] would explain them. So to give you an example of what I mean by that, some of the most difficult
[11:41.980 -> 11:45.860] decisions were in areas which were, people had very strong
[11:45.860 -> 11:46.860] and different views.
[11:46.860 -> 11:48.920] So, for example, assisted suicide.
[11:48.920 -> 11:55.020] One of the first cases that landed on my desk was a case of the mother of a person called
[11:55.020 -> 11:56.020] Dan James.
[11:56.020 -> 12:03.380] Dan was a fantastic rugby player and he was up at Loughborough and he was on the verge
[12:03.380 -> 12:09.000] of getting into the England team when a scrum collapsed on him on a rainy Saturday afternoon.
[12:09.000 -> 12:27.000] He was very badly injured, paralyzed from the neck down. He was at Stoke Mandeville for a while but never recovered and got more and more depressed, didn't want to live, didn't
[12:27.000 -> 12:28.640] want to live.
[12:28.640 -> 12:32.060] And his mum would fight with him about that as you can imagine.
[12:32.060 -> 12:37.640] But in the end, he decided to take his own life by going to Dignitas and his mum went
[12:37.640 -> 12:39.480] with him.
[12:39.480 -> 12:43.320] And when she got back, she was arrested for assisted suicide.
[12:43.320 -> 12:45.360] And this came across my desk as director of
[12:45.360 -> 12:48.720] public prosecution and I took the view that it wasn't in the public interest for her to
[12:48.720 -> 12:53.420] be prosecuted for assisting in his suicide in the particular circumstances. Once I'd
[12:53.420 -> 12:56.840] made that decision, I realized we had to go further than that, which was to open up the
[12:56.840 -> 13:01.160] whole decision making around assisted suicide to the public so people could have confidence
[13:01.160 -> 13:09.520] in what we were doing. So I wanted to bring change. And amongst the change I wanted at the Crown Prosecution Service was that the more I felt strongly,
[13:09.520 -> 13:14.400] the more we showed our workings, the more people have confidence in what we're doing.
[13:14.400 -> 13:20.520] And learning how you do that across an organization was really important to me. But it is a two-way
[13:20.520 -> 13:29.800] process because the other thing I learned at the Crown Prosecution Service and it stayed with me is, if you really want to know how to fix the things in the organization
[13:29.800 -> 13:34.480] that aren't working, ask your staff and ask your junior staff.
[13:34.480 -> 13:39.160] We have these 100 or so offices across England and Wales, and I'd visit each of them quite
[13:39.160 -> 13:40.480] regularly at least once a year.
[13:40.480 -> 13:50.520] I try to get to it once every other year, so I do about 50 a year, go out to these offices and whatever the program was for the day, the first thing I do is say, can I just
[13:50.520 -> 13:56.440] have 20 minutes on my own with the most junior staff with no supervisors in the room?
[13:56.440 -> 14:03.640] And it was so insightful and I asked them two questions routinely.
[14:03.640 -> 14:06.640] The first was, what's the biggest problem, challenge that
[14:06.640 -> 14:13.740] you've got every day you do your job? And what's the workaround? And the second, equally
[14:13.740 -> 14:19.040] instructive I thought was, when's the last time your manager said thank you to you?
[14:19.040 -> 14:20.040] Steve Brilliant.
[14:20.040 -> 14:23.800] Richard Dawkins And it was such an insight into how you manage
[14:23.800 -> 14:25.280] people, how you lead people.
[14:25.280 -> 14:32.040] What is it that you felt those two questions gave you as information as a leader of the
[14:32.040 -> 14:33.040] CPS?
[14:33.040 -> 14:36.080] Well, the first question, which is what's the problem and how you're going to fix it,
[14:36.080 -> 14:39.600] is a real insight into what's going wrong and what's the way.
[14:39.600 -> 14:47.240] I'm a big believer in fixing things, particularly now I'm in politics. What I can't stand is
[14:47.240 -> 14:51.600] people who describe a problem very, very well. And there are lots of people who can do that.
[14:51.600 -> 14:55.080] In politics, everybody does it all the time. Here's the problem, here's the problem. You
[14:55.080 -> 14:58.440] can have eloquent speeches about what the problem is. And I want to know what's the
[14:58.440 -> 15:03.360] solution. How do you fix this thing? In politics, it's the missing bit most of the time. And
[15:03.360 -> 15:08.360] I got that from the staff because they would – if you're – if there's something in the office that
[15:08.360 -> 15:13.020] isn't working properly and it's not working every day, in the end, you find a way to fix
[15:13.020 -> 15:16.800] it. You find something, a way to work around the problem. And so, there's the – what's
[15:16.800 -> 15:21.600] the problem? How do we fix it? It was a really important part of my learning from that.
[15:21.600 -> 15:26.600] The saying thank you was a real sense of how you value all
[15:26.600 -> 15:29.440] members of the team. If you've got members of the team who are not even
[15:29.440 -> 15:34.200] being thanked for the job they're doing, then you haven't got a very high
[15:34.200 -> 15:39.160] performing team in my view because in the end if people don't feel that their
[15:39.160 -> 15:44.420] contribution is acknowledged, then the likelihood that they're going to you
[15:44.420 -> 15:46.480] know muck in and be high-performing
[15:46.480 -> 15:50.320] is pretty low. So there's quite a lot to learn from that.
[15:50.320 -> 15:53.000] Toby I'm really interested in the fact that, you
[15:53.000 -> 15:58.320] know, you clearly want to deeply understand people, you want to deeply understand problems,
[15:58.320 -> 16:04.360] and you also, I guess, realize that, you know, things are nuanced. It's not this and that,
[16:04.360 -> 16:05.680] black and white, A and B, right?
[16:05.680 -> 16:11.680] Yet we live in a world where politics is totally not nuanced at all. It is more polarizing
[16:11.680 -> 16:17.560] than ever before. So, with all of your sort of natural instinct from having impact and
[16:17.560 -> 16:26.800] driving change, how do you feel about the kind of school playground type Prime Minister's questions or going on
[16:26.800 -> 16:32.880] like TV, political TV shows or news programs where it sometimes feels like the only aim
[16:32.880 -> 16:37.680] for the journalist is to do a kind of gotcha, catch you out kind of moment, you know, like
[16:37.680 -> 16:44.600] how much is a pint of milk type questions. How does the modern political world sit with
[16:44.600 -> 16:49.000] your kind of deep desire to actually have genuine impact for the right reasons?
[16:49.000 -> 16:53.000] I really hate that side of politics. Do we have to have it?
[16:53.000 -> 17:01.000] Our system is set up as an adversarial system, if you like. Even the layout of the House of Commons, if you think about it, it's a sort of rectangular shape.
[17:01.000 -> 17:06.920] On one side, you've got all the benches of the government. On the other side, you've got all the benches of the opposition. So, you're both staring at
[17:06.920 -> 17:13.280] each other across a divide. If you stand at the dispatch box speaking in parliament, it
[17:13.280 -> 17:18.520] is a very interesting experience. It's obvious once I've said it, but until I did it, I didn't
[17:18.520 -> 17:22.620] quite appreciate it. The moment you stand up at the dispatch box, almost every friendly
[17:22.620 -> 17:29.360] face is now behind you. And you've got a wall of faces that are going to vehemently disagree with what you're saying. And it's
[17:29.360 -> 17:35.880] a very, very tribal, divided way of doing things. There are other chambers, you know,
[17:35.880 -> 17:41.000] other parliaments around the world that are horseshoe-shaped to avoid that. I have to
[17:41.000 -> 17:45.000] say coming in from outside of politics, I didn't come into politics till
[17:45.000 -> 17:48.740] later in life when I've done other things, I don't find it at all comfortable. I don't
[17:48.740 -> 17:53.780] think it achieves very much. The best part of the week for me is when Prime Minister's
[17:53.780 -> 17:58.900] questions is over and I can get out of Parliament across the country. I was in Scotland earlier
[17:58.900 -> 18:05.600] this week, that would be typical to go straight out to see what is happening actually in the world outside
[18:05.600 -> 18:07.160] of parliament.
[18:07.160 -> 18:13.320] Because my strong belief is outside of politics, if there is a problem in an organization,
[18:13.320 -> 18:18.760] a team, something which you're leading, the instinct when something goes wrong or there's
[18:18.760 -> 18:23.120] problems to fix is to get people around the table and say, right, you know, what's the
[18:23.120 -> 18:24.120] problem?
[18:24.120 -> 18:25.560] How do we fix it? What's people's views on
[18:25.560 -> 18:30.680] this? And let's move forward. In politics, the instinct is to say, we've got all the
[18:30.680 -> 18:35.120] answers, they've got none of the answers. Under us, everything will be fine. Under them,
[18:35.120 -> 18:39.360] everything's terrible. And I don't think it actually is a good way of driving forward
[18:39.360 -> 18:44.000] the sort of change that we need. It also, it leads to a sort of short-term thinking.
[18:44.000 -> 18:45.360] So instead of recognising
[18:45.360 -> 18:50.200] that some things are going to take quite a long time to fix, there's this sort of sense
[18:50.200 -> 18:54.920] that you can do everything within a five year political cycle. Most of the time, the problems
[18:54.920 -> 18:57.600] that we're actually confronting are going to take longer than that.
[18:57.600 -> 19:00.040] Toby Curran When you're building teams now, I mean, you
[19:00.040 -> 19:03.760] know, it's different if someone's an MP because you don't decide who is or isn't. But when
[19:03.760 -> 19:08.320] you're deciding who is in your shadow cabinet, who do you want to work closely with,
[19:08.320 -> 19:12.440] but actually who are the non-MP members of staff that you're going to work with, who
[19:12.440 -> 19:13.440] do you want to hire?
[19:13.440 -> 19:15.320] What are the questions you ask?
[19:15.320 -> 19:16.800] What are the things that you look for?
[19:16.800 -> 19:18.800] Who do you want around you?
[19:18.800 -> 19:26.640] The people I want around me are people that can come to really sound judgments and I can totally trust
[19:26.640 -> 19:32.960] them. One of my weaknesses, I guess, is getting to that point where I can trust someone's
[19:32.960 -> 19:37.620] judgment. I think that when I first start working with someone, it takes a while until
[19:37.620 -> 19:42.520] I trust their judgment and therefore the relationship is one where I'm slightly questioning, well,
[19:42.520 -> 19:47.040] what's that about? You know, just walk me through that, tell me the thinking behind this, and I'm sort of
[19:47.040 -> 19:51.700] testing it, which must be quite hard, but once it gets to a point where I think
[19:51.700 -> 19:55.540] this person knows what they're talking about, I trust their judgment, then it clicks into
[19:55.540 -> 20:00.580] a much better place. But you can't trust them on one interview or, you know, one
[20:00.580 -> 20:03.460] half-hour conversation before you hire them, so what are the things you ask to
[20:03.460 -> 20:07.340] kind of think that person's got eventually what you want from them?
[20:07.340 -> 20:08.980] Toby So asking for an example of something they've
[20:08.980 -> 20:15.040] done is always very good. Asking them what their detractors would say about them is always
[20:15.040 -> 20:21.360] really, really interesting in terms of where people's real self-awareness. I can't stand
[20:21.360 -> 20:25.220] bullshitters and trying to get to that point in an interview or get to that
[20:25.220 -> 20:27.700] point quickly is really important for me.
[20:27.700 -> 20:29.860] Can I try a Keir Starmer question out on you?
[20:29.860 -> 20:32.340] What would your detractors say about you?
[20:32.340 -> 20:36.980] Firstly, they might say it takes too long to get to a position of trust with people
[20:36.980 -> 20:39.220] and I can see that's really irritating.
[20:39.220 -> 20:42.700] The other, I'm trying to avoid what a lot of people do which is to say, they'd say I
[20:42.700 -> 20:43.700] was too hard working or something.
[20:43.700 -> 20:49.040] You know, people always turn around. I would actually go with Angela Rayner's observation
[20:49.040 -> 20:57.760] of undersharing. I think she's right about that. And I think that sometimes that can lead to
[20:58.560 -> 21:04.480] members of the team thinking you don't care enough. You're not showing enough emotion about this
[21:04.480 -> 21:06.120] particular issue. Her
[21:06.120 -> 21:10.440] observation I think I've reflected on that quite a lot because I think I think
[21:10.440 -> 21:14.440] she's probably right about that. Yeah and that's an interesting one because that's
[21:14.440 -> 21:18.640] an observation from someone that actually knows you. Yeah. So I think even
[21:18.640 -> 21:22.880] when they're wrong I think we can be more accepting of observations from
[21:22.880 -> 21:25.120] people who know us, care about us and
[21:25.120 -> 21:26.640] want the best for us.
[21:26.640 -> 21:30.040] Where it gets really difficult is when the observations don't come from those people,
[21:30.040 -> 21:32.360] they come from people with an agenda.
[21:32.360 -> 21:37.320] And we know the way it works in this country with politics and opposition parties and the
[21:37.320 -> 21:41.960] media and the public and social media and, you know, aggression online.
[21:41.960 -> 21:48.480] And I'm not interested in the political angle to this, I'm really interested in the human angle to this. I wouldn't say you're an extrovert, right?
[21:48.480 -> 21:49.480] No.
[21:49.480 -> 21:54.180] So to put yourself out in the world like you do, and to get the scrutiny and at times the
[21:54.180 -> 22:00.600] criticism that you do, would you be happy to share with us actually how it really feels
[22:00.600 -> 22:06.520] to be subjected to the scrutiny, the criticism, the polarised opinions and I
[22:06.520 -> 22:10.800] guess at times the sense of unfairness that perhaps all politicians on every
[22:10.800 -> 22:16.080] party at times feel. Yes I do and let's not make it party political because I
[22:16.080 -> 22:23.160] think it is for politicians across the board because it's a funny old business.
[22:23.160 -> 22:25.520] I mean I have to say to people being leader of the
[22:25.520 -> 22:29.600] Labour Party or leader of the opposition is a bit like being the England manager where
[22:29.600 -> 22:33.280] everybody can do your job better than you. Everybody's got an opinion on your job that
[22:33.280 -> 22:35.880] you should be doing. I wouldn't have played him at left back or don't know what that's
[22:35.880 -> 22:40.320] all about. My job is very much like this now. Everybody thinks they could do a better job
[22:40.320 -> 22:46.060] and is, you know, very happy to give advice. And there are ups and downs when things are going
[22:46.060 -> 22:49.440] well, that sort of goes down a bit, if I'm honest. And then when they're not going so
[22:49.440 -> 22:55.820] well, the heat is really, really on. And it's really hard when you got lots of people saying
[22:55.820 -> 23:08.880] pretty negative stuff about what you're trying to do and somehow you have to shut it out. I think you just, for me it's about, I'm giving this,
[23:08.880 -> 23:13.440] almost like blinkering it, so being really clear what am I trying to achieve, what is
[23:13.440 -> 23:20.560] the goal, let me just focus on that and push the rest of it out. It's hard to do, it's
[23:20.560 -> 23:26.440] really really hard to do. And then there's the sheer resilience of just getting
[23:26.440 -> 23:33.800] back up and doing it. When you're having a bad time, everybody's on you, and there's
[23:33.800 -> 23:39.520] a lot of noises off, just getting back up and doing it again can be really tough.
[23:39.520 -> 23:46.720] What's been the hardest moment in the journey so far? I mean far where you've really thought, is this worth what
[23:46.720 -> 23:49.520] I have to put myself through?
[23:49.520 -> 23:55.240] Since I've been leader of the Labour Party, it was 2021 when we'd just lost Hartlepool
[23:55.240 -> 24:02.600] badly. That really hurt as a team. I'd been leader for just over a year, things were beginning
[24:02.600 -> 24:09.920] to go in the right direction and suddenly we had this major setback and it was like being punched in the stomach.
[24:09.920 -> 24:13.480] After the event, I now think it's good that it hurt.
[24:13.480 -> 24:19.960] It didn't feel too good at the time, but you only hurt if you were so determined to have
[24:19.960 -> 24:20.960] won.
[24:20.960 -> 24:26.600] But that was really hard and you know, we had, I don't know, 20, um, journalists
[24:26.600 -> 24:32.000] and photographers outside our front door all of the time for days on end.
[24:32.000 -> 24:35.800] And so it feels like you can't get away from it, even in your own home, you're sort of
[24:35.800 -> 24:41.760] indoors, but out moment you step out, there's cameras, there's people, you know, uh, wanting
[24:41.760 -> 24:42.760] to ask you questions.
[24:42.760 -> 24:45.400] And, you know, we've got relatively young
[24:45.400 -> 24:50.320] kids and that sense of there's nowhere to get away from this now. I found it
[24:50.320 -> 24:54.400] very hard. I think a lot of politicians would have found it hard. And how you
[24:54.400 -> 25:02.040] just shut that out as best you can and plow on, even though you know, lots of
[25:02.040 -> 25:07.840] people are being pretty disparaging. And how do you do that? Like we had, I'm thinking
[25:07.840 -> 25:11.280] like the way you described being feeling like you've been punched.
[25:11.280 -> 25:15.840] When we spoke to Tyson Fury on this podcast he spoke around
[25:15.840 -> 25:19.120] where his brain goes to when he's been hurt and he
[25:19.120 -> 25:23.680] and he he thinks of all the occasions where he's been hurt in the past and how
[25:23.680 -> 25:25.260] almost the evidence
[25:25.260 -> 25:28.420] builds confidence that I can come back from this.
[25:28.420 -> 25:32.780] How do you do it mentally to be able to keep going and keep forging ahead?
[25:32.780 -> 25:41.620] Firstly, I think I sort of go in on myself, in almost a protective crouch, absorb it into
[25:41.620 -> 25:46.400] myself and then begin the process of shutting out what I can shut
[25:46.400 -> 25:53.440] out, reminding myself what it is I'm trying to achieve, and therefore that I've got to
[25:53.440 -> 26:00.200] overcome this. There's a very important part for me as well, which is reminding myself
[26:00.200 -> 26:10.080] that what I'm trying to achieve is not about me. And this is, it's always hard to get this over. I didn't grow up thinking I would be or particularly wanting to be an MP,
[26:11.200 -> 26:15.200] because something in my head, it was a working class background, my dad worked in a factory,
[26:15.200 -> 26:20.880] my mom was a nurse, and there was an inhibitor in there somewhere that was saying this isn't a job
[26:20.880 -> 26:28.320] that someone like you is going to do, Keir. And therefore, I didn't have this lifelong dream of being leader of the Labour Party
[26:28.320 -> 26:30.760] or being prime minister.
[26:30.760 -> 26:35.200] And therefore, I desperately want us to win the next general election because I know what
[26:35.200 -> 26:37.880] we can do if we do win that general election.
[26:37.880 -> 26:41.720] But that is about having a Labour government which will change the country for the better
[26:41.720 -> 26:43.640] for millions of people.
[26:43.640 -> 26:49.160] It's not about Keir Starmer walking through the door at number 10. And I don't know whether that makes any
[26:49.160 -> 26:56.100] sense at all. And therefore, this isn't so that one day there will be an image of me
[26:56.100 -> 26:59.800] at number 10. It's because we need a Labour government. And I have to remind myself of
[26:59.800 -> 27:06.880] that when I'm in that position to get out of it again, which is right, take the heat, absorb
[27:06.880 -> 27:10.480] it, push to one side what you can push to one side, focus on what you're trying to achieve
[27:10.480 -> 27:12.200] and remember it isn't about you.
[27:12.200 -> 27:19.080] Because when you're being subject to that kind of criticism, it feels very personal.
[27:19.080 -> 27:20.960] And so it's that.
[27:20.960 -> 27:26.880] And then something works for me, my mum was very, very ill all of her life, really
[27:26.880 -> 27:32.120] ill. She had Stills disease, which is a disease that attacks your immune system when you're
[27:32.120 -> 27:39.280] 11. And then she had steroids when she was a teenager, which helped with the Stills disease,
[27:39.280 -> 27:44.280] but caused all sorts of awful problems later in life. So there came a point where she couldn't
[27:44.280 -> 27:45.240] walk, she couldn't properly use her hands, she came a point where she couldn't walk, she
[27:45.240 -> 27:49.120] couldn't properly use her hands, she had to have her leg amputated and she was in and
[27:49.120 -> 27:55.860] out of hospital a lot, in very, very, very serious situations. So, I've been in intensive
[27:55.860 -> 27:59.500] care and high dependency units with my mum many, many, many times, where it's been touch
[27:59.500 -> 28:05.000] and go. And she had this amazing courage and determination.
[28:07.000 -> 28:10.000] She would never moan, even if you asked her
[28:10.000 -> 28:12.120] in a sort of almost life and death situation,
[28:12.120 -> 28:12.960] how are you?
[28:12.960 -> 28:15.440] She'd always say, I'm all right, how are you?
[28:15.440 -> 28:18.000] And she would always get back up.
[28:18.000 -> 28:21.040] Somehow she would get back up and get back to her feet
[28:21.040 -> 28:22.920] in the most impossible circumstances
[28:22.920 -> 28:29.040] where sometimes when I looked at her in the high dependency and I couldn't see how she could ever get up again.
[28:29.040 -> 28:32.720] And interestingly, towards the end of her life when she couldn't get back up again,
[28:32.720 -> 28:35.640] in the end, it destroyed her.
[28:35.640 -> 28:40.600] And so when I'm in that moment, I just, there's a bit of me that thinks if my mom can get
[28:40.600 -> 28:43.640] up, I can get up.
[28:43.640 -> 28:48.880] Whatever the criticism, that's not the same as a life and death situation where my mom
[28:48.880 -> 28:50.560] got back up.
[28:50.560 -> 28:54.960] And so, there's a long answer to a question which is there are complicated things that
[28:54.960 -> 29:02.280] I think happen that give you a sort of resilience to get through a difficult set of circumstances.
[29:02.280 -> 29:05.020] They're the very low moments in politics. There
[29:05.020 -> 29:10.220] are many other times when it's simply not that bad and the additional factor
[29:10.220 -> 29:13.460] now is we've got children and how do I protect them through this is something I
[29:13.460 -> 29:18.660] do worry about. Can we explore the relationship with your mum though because
[29:18.660 -> 29:45.640] as you're describing what sounds like a pretty harrowing and and troubling experience of being in those high dependency units, I'm reminded of, I yn ymdrech ar y fath o'r unedau o'r arddependigau fawr. Rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n some had lost parents at a young age, some had had parents that had maybe had
[29:45.640 -> 29:50.720] illnesses like yours. Those experiences form you, they form your views, your
[29:50.720 -> 29:55.800] beliefs, your judgments. What did that do for you seeing your mum struggle like that?
[29:55.800 -> 30:00.680] The first thing is I say I agree with you, those things do influence how you
[30:00.680 -> 30:25.000] are. If I'm honest with myself, I've i've only come to understand why how they've influenced me i think to some extent i'm still coming to terms with how they've influenced me and i speak about my mom and my dad but incredibly courageous and determined, warm, loving,
[30:28.440 -> 30:32.840] and always there for others, not moaning about herself,
[30:32.840 -> 30:36.340] was an incredible example, an incredible example.
[30:37.160 -> 30:40.960] That's given me a determination like nothing on earth.
[30:40.960 -> 30:44.400] Nothing will get in the way of what we have to achieve.
[30:44.400 -> 30:49.800] You know, that being absolutely clear-eyed and focused on what is it for my mum, which
[30:49.800 -> 30:53.240] was, I'm going to get through this situation, I'm going to get up, and for her it's, I'm
[30:53.240 -> 30:54.240] going to walk again.
[30:54.240 -> 30:55.240] I'm going to walk again.
[30:55.240 -> 30:57.000] Matthew Farris Why do you think her incredible strength came
[30:57.000 -> 30:58.000] from?
[30:58.000 -> 31:01.040] Toby Hatch It was deep, deep, deep in her being, this
[31:01.040 -> 31:06.480] sense that, I think it was probably, although I don't know, being told
[31:06.480 -> 31:12.360] as an 11 year old or just past 11, she was told by the time he's 20, he won't walk and
[31:12.360 -> 31:16.600] he definitely won't have kids. I've never talked this through with her. Obviously, I
[31:16.600 -> 31:22.300] can't now, but I've just imagined that it triggered something in her that something
[31:22.300 -> 31:25.720] in terms of no way. And then it kept, and in terms of, no way.
[31:25.720 -> 31:28.800] And then it kept, and the steroids actually, but for the steroids she probably wouldn't
[31:28.800 -> 31:32.680] have been walking and I'm not sure whether she would have had kids, but it gave her that
[31:32.680 -> 31:37.360] opportunity and so that really drove her.
[31:37.360 -> 31:46.080] Because my mom was so dependent physically on help, the relationship between her and my dad was very intense.
[31:46.080 -> 31:47.080] He was an incredible man.
[31:47.080 -> 31:51.200] He was totally devoted and committed to her.
[31:51.200 -> 31:54.600] Learned everything about every aspect of her illness.
[31:54.600 -> 31:56.880] When she was in hospital, he would be there the whole time.
[31:56.880 -> 32:01.680] He would sleep on any bench in the corridor of the hospital, whatever.
[32:01.680 -> 32:05.520] He wouldn't leave the hospital until she was coming home.
[32:08.280 -> 32:10.040] Incredibly dedicated and everything was premised on mom and how we'd get mom through.
[32:10.880 -> 32:13.200] And these are things I'm thinking through more now,
[32:13.200 -> 32:15.680] to be honest, because I reflect a lot on my relationship
[32:15.680 -> 32:18.120] with my dad in recent years, more than I probably did
[32:18.120 -> 32:20.320] in the previous 20 years before that,
[32:20.320 -> 32:23.000] and not so much when he was alive.
[32:23.000 -> 32:26.880] Gave me this incredible sense of duty and loyalty
[32:27.920 -> 32:34.160] because he was just, his duty was to look after my mum. You know, it was like the vow he took when
[32:34.160 -> 32:40.640] he got married was just seared through him. It was his duty to do it, to be there, to absolutely be
[32:40.640 -> 32:45.000] there. And he kept her alive on a number of occasions because he knew exactly what was going on
[32:45.000 -> 32:46.900] and what exactly to do.
[32:46.900 -> 32:48.320] So that duty,
[32:49.960 -> 32:51.480] commitment,
[32:51.480 -> 32:54.240] I think, and again, piecing this together,
[32:54.240 -> 32:55.720] I'm not pretending to be an expert on this,
[32:55.720 -> 32:58.860] but that thing that Angela said about undersharing,
[32:58.860 -> 32:59.880] where did that come from?
[32:59.880 -> 33:02.160] A bit of me thinks it was because the intensity
[33:02.160 -> 33:04.520] of that relationship about my mom's illness
[33:04.520 -> 33:09.760] was such that there wasn't much emotional space for much else in our household. It was
[33:09.760 -> 33:15.620] quite a small household, quite tightly in. And I don't know there was the emotional space
[33:15.620 -> 33:21.200] for us to perhaps express ourselves in the way we might otherwise have done because everything
[33:21.200 -> 33:30.120] was quite intense around making sure mum was alright. And I think that's obviously had an effect on me, maybe holding things in that I, if
[33:30.120 -> 33:34.560] I was Andrew I'd probably share more. And the other thing that is, again I've reflected
[33:34.560 -> 33:48.020] on much, much more in recent years is, and now I think I understand better, is that my dad worked in a factory. So his work on the factory floor,
[33:48.020 -> 33:52.280] which is tough, really tough, physical work.
[33:53.680 -> 33:57.280] But he was skilled as a tool maker, highly skilled.
[33:57.280 -> 34:00.420] But he felt all his life disrespected.
[34:00.420 -> 34:03.400] I could tell the conversation he hated
[34:03.400 -> 34:05.120] was the conversation with people sort of standing
[34:05.120 -> 34:08.720] around with a coffee or a drink and saying, well, what do you do for a living?
[34:08.720 -> 34:12.880] And so I say, well, I'm a civil servant, I'm a teacher.
[34:12.880 -> 34:13.880] What do you do?
[34:13.880 -> 34:16.160] I work in a factory.
[34:16.160 -> 34:21.400] And there'd be a moment of quiet when he said that.
[34:21.400 -> 34:23.040] And then the conversation would move on.
[34:23.040 -> 34:26.360] And that moment for him, I think made him feel really
[34:26.360 -> 34:31.240] disrespected and looked down, that he felt people look down on him.
[34:31.240 -> 34:34.440] And I think he's probably right.
[34:34.440 -> 34:44.600] And for me, one of the reasons that respect is so important is that short period of silence
[34:44.600 -> 34:46.480] that used to follow my dad saying
[34:46.480 -> 34:48.200] what he did for a living.
[34:48.200 -> 34:53.300] And that's made me, it's bound together my mom's sort of determination with that sense
[34:53.300 -> 34:59.680] of injustice that everybody should have respect and dignity.
[34:59.680 -> 35:04.080] But so much what you're saying, Kade, like we can see, like as we're listening to it,
[35:04.080 -> 35:08.080] like that ties in with the fact that you've gone as the most junior member, as everyone said,
[35:08.080 -> 35:12.880] thank you to you, and things like that. I'm interested in why is it taking you so long
[35:13.520 -> 35:19.200] to do this reflection that you can see the pieces of it that would have, that predate it?
[35:19.200 -> 35:22.880] Toby I don't know is the true answer to that,
[35:22.880 -> 35:27.280] but as I reflect on that, I think it's because
[35:27.280 -> 35:30.720] my sort of focus on outcomes, I've got to achieve this, I've got to win this case, I've
[35:30.720 -> 35:34.720] got to do this, I've got to make sure that if we go into court, we're gonna be fully
[35:34.720 -> 35:39.400] prepared, we're gonna get absolutely everything right because I have a duty to the person
[35:39.400 -> 35:44.600] that I'm representing to make sure that if we possibly can, we win their case.
[35:44.600 -> 35:45.760] So it's very outcome,
[35:45.760 -> 35:51.840] outcome, outcome. So, I'm sort of running towards the outcome the whole time. Almost
[35:51.840 -> 35:58.400] not wanting to or thinking that I need to reflect on what's the hard wiring here that's
[35:58.400 -> 36:04.480] making you do this. I never set out on this path. I didn't know what a lawyer was particularly
[36:04.480 -> 36:05.920] when I went to Leeds to study law. I'd never met a lawyer. I didn't know what a lawyer was particularly when I went to Leeds to study law.
[36:05.920 -> 36:06.920] I'd never met a lawyer.
[36:06.920 -> 36:11.240] I was first in my family to go to university, didn't know what a lawyer was, but sort of
[36:11.240 -> 36:13.640] plowed on towards the goal.
[36:13.640 -> 36:19.160] Then through the cases, then through more strategic litigation into Northern Ireland
[36:19.160 -> 36:24.480] and the Crown Prosecution Service and into politics, the same thing, which is a deep
[36:24.480 -> 36:27.280] sense having worked five years running
[36:27.280 -> 36:31.880] the prosecution service that I can't bring about the change I need to bring about unless
[36:31.880 -> 36:36.800] I get on to a bigger stage which is politics where there are better ways of bringing around
[36:36.800 -> 36:38.520] a bigger outcome.
[36:38.520 -> 36:44.240] And whether this was my mom or not I don't know but running towards the goal meant I
[36:44.240 -> 36:46.440] never reflected on the journey.
[36:47.760 -> 36:48.980] So the questions you're asking me,
[36:48.980 -> 36:50.120] this is not a conversation
[36:50.120 -> 36:52.020] I would have been having 10 years ago.
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[39:39.440 -> 39:46.320] When did your parents pass away? So my
[39:42.960 -> 39:47.980] mum passed away in 2015 just a few weeks before I was elected in as an MP
[39:48.500 -> 39:49.880] which was
[39:49.880 -> 39:52.320] Really sad. Yeah, and then my dad passed away
[39:53.120 -> 39:55.120] in 2018
[39:55.160 -> 39:57.880] You know, you've said you're you're a different person now
[39:58.420 -> 40:02.200] to the person who particularly when your mum was still alive, you know in 2015 that
[40:02.900 -> 40:05.040] The person that would have maybe had different conversations then we always ask at the end, you know, in 2015, the person that would have maybe had
[40:05.040 -> 40:06.600] different conversations then,
[40:06.600 -> 40:08.240] we always ask at the end, you know,
[40:08.240 -> 40:11.100] what advice would you give a teenage Kia?
[40:11.100 -> 40:13.320] I'm interested what you would want to say
[40:13.320 -> 40:14.720] to your mum and dad if they were still here
[40:14.720 -> 40:17.900] and they were able to hear you talking
[40:17.900 -> 40:21.440] in this new kind of reflective, open, and honest way.
[40:23.280 -> 40:32.000] I think my mum knew what I thought of her and was a very
[40:32.000 -> 40:51.440] warm woman. It's taken me much longer to work out my relationship with my dad because he was by nature more distant and so bound up with how he looked after my mum
[40:51.440 -> 40:56.440] and almost a retreat from the social scene because he didn't like that question, what
[40:56.440 -> 41:08.200] do you do for a living? that it didn't feel close. And I don't regret very much in life.
[41:12.120 -> 41:17.000] But last time I saw my dad, he was in hospital, died.
[41:18.280 -> 41:19.280] And I walked away.
[41:21.800 -> 41:25.080] And I knew he was gonna die, just knew it.
[41:25.080 -> 41:28.080] I knew I wouldn't see him again.
[41:28.080 -> 41:37.160] And I didn't turn around and go back and tell him what I thought.
[41:37.160 -> 41:40.720] And I should have done.
[41:40.720 -> 41:43.120] And that, you know, is this advice for my teenage self?
[41:43.120 -> 41:46.440] I don't know it's hardwired advice for myself
[41:47.920 -> 41:49.920] In relation to my relationship with our children
[41:51.040 -> 41:54.880] so I've tried to make sure that is completely different and that they
[41:56.240 -> 42:01.360] That we are together we talk and we know each other if you had a turn about what would you have said to your dad?
[42:05.560 -> 42:07.800] I would have said I love you.
[42:07.800 -> 42:09.600] I'd have also said I'm proud of you.
[42:11.600 -> 42:13.200] I'd have tried to close that gap
[42:14.480 -> 42:19.480] that was so important to him in his life.
[42:22.360 -> 42:25.600] You probably knew that already, I would imagine.
[42:25.600 -> 42:27.280] I hope so.
[42:27.280 -> 42:32.280] It's so interesting, isn't it, having these types of conversations, because I think life
[42:32.280 -> 42:33.280] moves at such a pace.
[42:33.280 -> 42:37.480] I mean, the life you've lived especially moves at such a pace, but I think it's only often
[42:37.480 -> 42:43.480] when we stop and we realize that the great moments, the hard moments, the relationships,
[42:43.480 -> 42:46.360] the things that were left unsaid, they're
[42:46.360 -> 42:52.400] all such an important part of where we're at and how we live, you know?
[42:52.400 -> 43:01.640] I agree, and I think one of the hardest things in a job where you're in the public domain
[43:01.640 -> 43:04.400] is that public-private.
[43:04.400 -> 43:07.740] Getting the balance right is very important and say
[43:07.740 -> 43:12.600] for example I'm very insistent that we will always stop work at six o'clock on a Friday
[43:12.600 -> 43:17.960] and I will spend time with Vic, my wife and our children. Most of the time arguing about
[43:17.960 -> 43:21.360] what takeaway we're going to get, see if we can get them off the iPads, I get all that.
[43:21.360 -> 43:26.080] But it's just I don't want to be that bloke in 10 years that says, I
[43:26.080 -> 43:28.160] wish I'd spent more time with my children.
[43:28.160 -> 43:31.440] If you want to spend more time with your children, spend more time with your children.
[43:31.440 -> 43:35.640] And so, there's that bit of the public private which is really hard to get right, but I'm
[43:35.640 -> 43:36.640] determined.
[43:36.640 -> 43:41.120] I actually, people think that it's a sign of strong leadership or that it's busy leadership
[43:41.120 -> 43:48.800] that if you can say my diary is so full I can't see my wife and children, that is somehow a description of a good leader. I don't think so. But the
[43:48.800 -> 43:55.160] more intense moments are the more difficult ones. And just to give you where the struggle
[43:55.160 -> 44:10.800] with the public life and the private life really becomes quite acute. So when we had race for the Labour Party. My wife's mum had an awful accident and died. And as you can imagine,
[44:11.680 -> 44:18.960] Vic, my wife, was in utter bits. And I found that really hard because I was trying to reach
[44:18.960 -> 44:26.940] her. This was, in many ways, for me, I'd lost my own parents, but to try to reach someone who was losing
[44:26.940 -> 44:30.020] and lost hers was really hard.
[44:30.020 -> 44:34.620] And to go from that to you're on stage, I could almost feel the team saying, come on
[44:34.620 -> 44:35.620] kid, you're on.
[44:35.620 -> 44:37.480] You've got to do the next hustings.
[44:37.480 -> 44:40.520] You've got to go out there and the cameras will be on, the lights will be on, and you're
[44:40.520 -> 44:47.120] expected to project confidence, et cetera. And that's quite hard to turn around
[44:47.120 -> 44:51.200] in a short period of time, you know, taking a call just before you go on stage and then
[44:51.200 -> 44:55.400] going on stage. Family and friendships are not about all the times you get together,
[44:55.400 -> 45:01.400] a cup of tea and a drink, that's all good. But the real test is, are you actually there
[45:01.400 -> 45:06.880] when you need to be there? This will be the same for anybody doing a publicly facing role.
[45:06.880 -> 45:14.040] The intensity of that is hard. I mean, Mark Drakeford, who's the labor leader in Wales,
[45:14.040 -> 45:21.120] lost his wife in awful, you know, suddenly and unexpectedly. And I could, I can see the
[45:21.120 -> 45:26.240] struggle of dealing with something private whilst having to be in public.
[45:26.240 -> 45:32.840] So you chose to go into this public life as a politician at a relatively
[45:32.840 -> 45:37.880] late age, you said you've had a life, a rich life and successful life before it.
[45:37.880 -> 45:42.420] And one of the things that I found fascinating in the books that the
[45:42.420 -> 45:47.000] Obamas have done was where they've almost opened the doors into the yn ffasinatio yn y llyfrau y mae'r Obama's wedi'u gwneud oedd lle maen nhw wedi agor y ddrawethau
[45:47.000 -> 45:53.000] sydd wedi digwydd cyn i Barack Obama ddewis mynd i fywyd cyhoeddus ac mae wedi bod yn ddangos
[45:53.000 -> 46:00.000] yn fawr sut roedd ei ffraint yn ddod yn ddiweddar arno, oherwydd gallai hi weld yr holl ymdrechion
[46:00.000 -> 46:02.000] ar gyfer un o'r cyrnodau gwell sydd wedi dod i'ch ffyrdd.
[46:02.000 -> 46:06.200] Rwy'n mwynhau'r sgwrsau y byddwch chi wedi'u cael ar ôl y drawsau gyda'ch ffraint, of a better term that came your way. I'm interested in the conversations that you would have had behind closed doors
[46:06.200 -> 46:10.320] with Vic, your wife, and who else was involved in that
[46:10.320 -> 46:14.080] before you made that decision to go and be subject
[46:14.080 -> 46:18.300] to some of these kind of experiences you've described.
[46:18.300 -> 46:21.280] Yeah, I mean, there are many conversations along the way.
[46:21.280 -> 46:33.280] I mean, Vic would have probably preferred I didn't do it because she would know what was involved in doing it and is brilliantly supportive.
[46:33.280 -> 46:37.160] I think she, if she was sitting here, she would say, yeah, but I know you, I knew you
[46:37.160 -> 46:41.000] were going to do it anyway. And therefore, you know, we had to talk through how you're
[46:41.000 -> 46:48.500] going to do it because she would have known that that sort of focus on the outcome, focus on the goals would drive me through and almost no
[46:48.500 -> 46:49.880] holding back in a way.
[46:49.880 -> 46:56.960] But I think if she were asked, she would say she'd rather I'd done something else, having
[46:56.960 -> 47:00.560] finished being director of public prosecutions.
[47:00.560 -> 47:05.000] And then, you know, my friends, I mean, one of my very, very good friends, and I've got
[47:05.000 -> 47:09.520] really intense, strong friendships that I've had with people for a very, very long time,
[47:09.520 -> 47:11.960] which actually helps as well, going back to the earlier discussion.
[47:11.960 -> 47:14.720] So, I've always got a retreat place.
[47:14.720 -> 47:20.360] If I'm, you know, in, if I'm being attacked, etc., I've got strong, lifelong friendships
[47:20.360 -> 47:23.440] with people who know me because of who I am.
[47:23.440 -> 47:26.000] And where do they come from, from childhood, from school?
[47:26.000 -> 47:34.000] School, uni, playing football. And one of the people I've known from school, very, very good friend of mine,
[47:34.000 -> 47:38.000] when I had the conversation with him about running for leader of the Labour Party, he was dead against it.
[47:38.000 -> 47:43.000] He said, what's it going to do to your family? Why do you want that life?
[47:43.000 -> 47:45.680] You know how some people say, oh what a great thing here,
[47:45.680 -> 47:50.160] you know, fantastic, you'll be leader of the Labour Party, you know, what a great thing to do,
[47:50.160 -> 47:56.160] which it obviously is. He was against it. He just thought you're going to put yourself through
[47:56.160 -> 48:08.600] something which isn't worth it for your family and for your life. And that's really lovely because he was just focusing on me and not anything
[48:08.600 -> 48:15.560] wider than that. Do you ever have regrets about it? No. And for all, you know, we concentrate
[48:15.560 -> 48:19.420] a lot on the some of the challenges of the job. It is, you know, it is the privilege
[48:19.420 -> 48:23.640] of my life to be leader of a Labour party. To be leading that party is an incredible
[48:23.640 -> 48:25.080] privilege and to be leading that party is an incredible privilege. And
[48:25.080 -> 48:30.280] to be leading that party in the hope that we might win an election and change the country
[48:30.280 -> 48:36.960] for the better is fantastic, you know. And because we've focused on the challenges, the
[48:36.960 -> 48:40.120] sense that, you know, it's only hardship, of course, there's all of that, that'll be
[48:40.120 -> 48:48.680] there. And I readily acknowledge, by the way, that this is there for leaders in other political parties. I readily acknowledge that I think for women, it's more difficult than
[48:48.680 -> 48:54.280] men in leadership positions, but politics in particular. So this isn't about me or about
[48:54.280 -> 49:01.000] the Labour Party, but it is an incredible privilege and opportunity. If we win that
[49:01.000 -> 49:05.560] election and change millions of lives for the better, what an incredible
[49:05.560 -> 49:13.160] thing to be able to do and to restore politics as a force for good, which it can be and should
[49:13.160 -> 49:14.160] be.
[49:14.160 -> 49:16.640] Toby And where does imposter syndrome sit in your
[49:16.640 -> 49:17.640] life?
[49:17.640 -> 49:22.160] Because senior leaders and the high achievers and the artists and entrepreneurs that have
[49:22.160 -> 49:25.480] sat on this podcast, to a man and woman, have
[49:25.480 -> 49:28.560] told us that imposter syndrome exists.
[49:28.560 -> 49:29.720] What's your relationship with it?
[49:29.720 -> 49:31.000] Toby Wright Not very strong.
[49:31.000 -> 49:35.920] I mean, I don't associate with the syndrome very much at all.
[49:35.920 -> 49:41.200] I mean, I readily accept, as I did earlier, that this is not a path of predestiny for
[49:41.200 -> 49:42.280] me.
[49:42.280 -> 49:48.840] But I don't really, I mean mean I don't have that imposter syndrome
[49:48.840 -> 49:54.240] in the way that I know, I mean many people in politics and in other walks do have it
[49:54.240 -> 49:55.240] to a level.
[49:55.240 -> 49:58.840] What about doubt then? Because I think, you know, making a decision about what to have
[49:58.840 -> 50:07.800] for dinner is one thing. Making a decision that could change or save or take lives as you have to when you're at the top of politics.
[50:07.800 -> 50:10.400] Like, they are huge decisions.
[50:10.400 -> 50:16.000] How are you a decision-maker? And I'd love to find out how you come to those big decisions.
[50:16.000 -> 50:17.800] When do you press the button?
[50:17.800 -> 50:22.800] Firstly, for better or for worse, I've had to make tough decisions for a while now.
[50:22.800 -> 50:25.480] So it's not just as leader of the Labour
[50:25.480 -> 50:31.760] Party. One of the examples I'd give of that is when I was a lawyer, I got very involved
[50:31.760 -> 50:38.840] in doing death penalty cases. So, this would be representing people who were on death row,
[50:38.840 -> 50:43.640] usually in countries that are part of the Commonwealth, used to be colonies, where there's
[50:43.640 -> 50:48.960] death by hanging. And we worked intensively in some countries in the Caribbean, and I would go out there
[50:48.960 -> 50:54.800] with teams to represent some of the individuals on death row, sometimes groups of individuals.
[50:55.600 -> 51:01.600] And to sit in a cell with somebody who is literally going to live or die according to
[51:01.600 -> 51:05.580] whether you win the case. Brings into very
[51:05.580 -> 51:11.100] sharp focus difficult decisions. So, I know what difficult decisions are and I know they
[51:11.100 -> 51:14.100] have to be taken. You cannot have a situation where you say, well, that's too difficult,
[51:14.100 -> 51:17.540] I'm going to walk away from it. That isn't leadership. If you can't take the decision,
[51:17.540 -> 51:23.660] you shouldn't be in that position. And therefore, it's a necessary part of what you're doing.
[51:23.660 -> 51:25.120] I've seen other people making decisions
[51:25.120 -> 51:26.080] when I was in Northern Ireland.
[51:26.080 -> 51:29.600] I saw, we were with the police service.
[51:29.600 -> 51:31.160] I was the human rights advisor.
[51:31.160 -> 51:33.280] I was in the control room when there was
[51:33.280 -> 51:36.040] a dangerous situation in Northern Ireland unfolding.
[51:36.040 -> 51:38.360] And there was various footage, camera footage
[51:38.360 -> 51:40.840] of someone who had got a gun
[51:41.840 -> 51:44.360] and was making their way towards other people.
[51:44.360 -> 51:46.160] And the fears for the worst.
[51:46.160 -> 51:50.240] I saw the senior officer going up and down with the monitors, the screens, the sound
[51:50.240 -> 51:55.920] control, knowing that he had to make a decision whether to authorize the officers on the ground
[51:55.920 -> 51:58.960] to use force, to use lethal force if necessary.
[51:58.960 -> 52:04.360] The final decision whether to fire would be theirs, but he knew once he'd given that authorization,
[52:04.360 -> 52:05.840] that was a possible next
[52:05.840 -> 52:11.240] step and just to see and respect, he knew he had to make a decision, he knew he wanted
[52:11.240 -> 52:14.160] to be totally informed, but he knew the consequences of his decision.
[52:14.160 -> 52:15.160] Matthew 14
[52:15.160 -> 52:16.480] What did you learn from the way he operated in that moment?
[52:16.480 -> 52:17.480] Richard 14
[52:17.480 -> 52:22.080] I learned that that's how you make decisions, which is absorb, absorb, absorb, take it in,
[52:22.080 -> 52:25.100] but be clear you've got to make the decision and be clear what the consequences are
[52:25.400 -> 52:27.400] but don't he didn't have the
[52:28.120 -> 52:30.640] luxury of shying away because if he shied away
[52:31.720 -> 52:36.440] That meant the person who with the gun if they then use that gun
[52:37.120 -> 52:41.800] Might kill someone if you're in a leadership position where you've got a tough decisions
[52:42.000 -> 52:47.280] It's learning and appreciating there are tough consequences whichever way you go. So can I ask about the end of
[52:47.280 -> 52:51.480] days as a leader then because I'm conscious you're an Arsenal fan. You're fast forwarding.
[52:51.480 -> 52:56.120] Yeah yeah but what I mean is like when you spoke about when you left the CPS
[52:56.120 -> 53:00.440] that your time was up there and you made a decision to go into politics
[53:00.440 -> 53:05.340] as an Arsenal fan you live through the reign of Wenger. Yeah. Where
[53:05.340 -> 53:09.160] he was an incredible leader but those last few years were soured by people
[53:09.160 -> 53:14.160] feeling that his time was up and urging him to make a decision. What have you
[53:14.160 -> 53:18.360] learned about the time to walk away from a leadership role when you feel that
[53:18.360 -> 53:23.240] I've done what I can do, it's time to pass over? I think it's exactly that. I've
[53:23.240 -> 53:25.000] done what I can do and I now need to go.
[53:25.000 -> 53:28.000] I felt as a lawyer I'd gone as far as I could as an individual lawyer,
[53:28.000 -> 53:32.000] and I needed to change and get within an organisation.
[53:32.000 -> 53:34.000] That's when I went to work with the police service in Northern Ireland.
[53:34.000 -> 53:37.000] That took me on to being Director of Public Prosecution.
[53:37.000 -> 53:39.000] I mean, my time in Northern Ireland was really, really important to me
[53:39.000 -> 53:44.000] because I developed a sense of changing things in a different way.
[53:44.000 -> 53:46.400] So, knowing when you should step back and go
[53:46.400 -> 53:48.960] is really important when you've gone as far as you can
[53:48.960 -> 53:51.160] in the job that you're doing.
[53:51.160 -> 53:52.960] There's a slightly smaller version
[53:52.960 -> 53:54.640] of what you've just put to me,
[53:54.640 -> 53:55.920] which is really important as well,
[53:55.920 -> 53:59.040] which is being able to get away from the job.
[53:59.040 -> 54:02.200] So, I mean, this is triggered by you mentioning Arsenal.
[54:02.200 -> 54:03.600] I play football every week.
[54:04.440 -> 54:09.400] And I'd still, since I'm 10, I played I played football used to be twice a week, even sometimes three
[54:09.400 -> 54:10.400] times but now only once.
[54:10.400 -> 54:11.400] What's your position?
[54:11.400 -> 54:15.920] Middle of midfield on the left hand side, you know, shouting instructions, pretending
[54:15.920 -> 54:23.080] I'm a box to box player. Those playing alongside me now would say that that is just, you know,
[54:23.080 -> 54:29.400] a theory of the past here. It's not the present anymore, but in that moment on the football pitch, nothing matters
[54:29.400 -> 54:30.320] other than football.
[54:30.720 -> 54:34.160] I'm playing now, playing just with mates that I've known for a long time.
[54:34.840 -> 54:39.120] There's the usual banter, but the politics and the decision and the stress, I mean, it's
[54:39.120 -> 54:40.320] another way of getting through this difficult.
[54:40.600 -> 54:45.040] It all goes to one side as you're just, there's a single pursuit, which is put that ball
[54:45.040 -> 54:50.400] in the back of the net and win. I'm not one of these people that will say, oh, it's great to
[54:50.400 -> 54:54.720] take part. Um, you know, if I'm playing football, I'm on the pitch to win. Um, that's the sole
[54:54.720 -> 55:00.480] objective, but going to Arsenal is a different version of that because, you know, go now, um,
[55:00.480 -> 55:05.000] with my boy, my girl comes sometimes, I meet really close friends I've known for a long time,
[55:05.000 -> 55:12.680] and we all meet, chat before the game, walk down to the game, watch the game, all of that is a sort
[55:12.680 -> 55:17.040] of ritual that's to do, you know, the actual watching the game is fantastic, but it's a small
[55:17.040 -> 55:23.480] part of what this is all about, which is something that's given me great joy for all of my life,
[55:23.480 -> 55:27.080] and I absolutely, you know, it's central football to me
[55:27.080 -> 55:29.800] in terms of that focus and that release.
[55:29.800 -> 55:33.920] It allows me space to get away from everything else
[55:33.920 -> 55:35.520] that is the job.
[55:35.520 -> 55:37.440] And I think that's really important.
[55:37.440 -> 55:41.520] It's again why I would now say making time for my family,
[55:41.520 -> 55:44.400] which sounds so, such an odd thing in a way to say,
[55:44.400 -> 55:48.380] is really important, actually having that space. Now I don't wish to be trite
[55:48.380 -> 55:52.300] because you talk about something as significant as your family but as
[55:52.300 -> 55:56.380] somebody that described that you're often in absorbing mode what have you
[55:56.380 -> 56:02.320] learned from your years of watching Arsenal and elite high-performance teams
[56:02.320 -> 56:05.520] that you actually think I can translate that into
[56:05.520 -> 56:10.640] my world there's a metaphor there that that lands quite well. If I take the
[56:10.640 -> 56:14.840] current Arsenal team which I think is fantastic I'm biased but I do think this
[56:14.840 -> 56:19.600] is an incredible group of young players what's incredible about them why is that
[56:19.600 -> 56:28.600] different what can we learn from that? For me, it's two things. One, there isn't a standout star. So, when
[56:28.600 -> 56:33.880] Aubameyang played for Arsenal, outstanding star, everybody tried to let everything go
[56:33.880 -> 56:39.920] through him. Now, we've got a team where quite often, you know, we, after the game, we'll
[56:39.920 -> 56:43.720] all get together again. And the inevitable conversation, well, who was player, you know,
[56:43.720 -> 56:48.600] who was player of the game? Quite often, it quite hard to say and that is really good because the whole
[56:48.600 -> 56:53.680] team, everybody's playing well in their positions and that's really instructive because you're
[56:53.680 -> 57:00.160] not relying on one or two standout stars, you've got a genuinely strong squad. I also
[57:00.160 -> 57:06.200] think that with Arteta, you've got one incredible leader, um, who has managed players
[57:06.200 -> 57:10.760] in different ways to bring out the very, so every player in the Arsenal squad is probably
[57:10.760 -> 57:15.160] playing better than I've ever seen them play before and better than they've played before.
[57:15.160 -> 57:19.840] That's quite an extraordinary thing to bring about. If you take the particular example
[57:19.840 -> 57:26.000] of Jacquet, who two or three seasons ago stormed off the pitch. I was there. I was with my boy and I said,
[57:26.000 -> 57:29.000] he won't play for Arsenal again. And, you know,
[57:29.000 -> 57:33.000] Arteta brought him around and now you'd have him
[57:33.000 -> 57:35.000] first on your team sheet pretty well every week.
[57:35.000 -> 57:38.000] So that incredible leadership probably going on,
[57:38.000 -> 57:40.000] you probably wish you hadn't asked me about Arsenal now.
[57:40.000 -> 57:48.000] So it's a genuine team where everybody is doing better than they would probably do elsewhere or on their own
[57:48.000 -> 57:48.980] and
[57:48.980 -> 57:55.580] incredible leadership from Arteta and taking people on the journey like when I now watch our saw the song at the beginning it feels like
[57:56.020 -> 57:58.160] The Emirates is together, doesn't it?
[57:58.160 -> 58:04.080] Yeah, I'm taking people on the journey is really really important. The whole team needs to come on the journey with you
[58:04.320 -> 58:07.200] We're gonna move on to our quickfire questions in a moment.
[58:07.200 -> 58:14.040] Before we finish with those, I think there is one question that we have to ask you and I think the
[58:14.040 -> 58:18.000] audience would want to be asked and the challenge here is for you as you have done very well actually
[58:18.000 -> 58:23.240] for the last hour or so not to get political with your answers. We talk about taking people on the
[58:23.240 -> 58:28.540] journey right, you want the nation to go on a journey with you, commit to the Labour Party, vote you into
[58:28.540 -> 58:34.880] power. If they do that, what kind of Prime Minister would be leading this country?
[58:34.880 -> 58:41.160] An inclusive, determined Prime Minister who will look out for everyone in the
[58:41.160 -> 58:46.100] country. Perfect. What are the three non-negotiable behaviors that
[58:46.100 -> 58:54.920] you and the people around you would ideally buy into? The first is be there. You've got
[58:54.920 -> 59:00.800] to be there. This is a guttural thing for me. I'm just describing earlier. This is particularly
[59:00.800 -> 59:12.000] obviously people close to me, but you've got to be there. All the rest of it is not compared to being there. And that, just to translate that into
[59:12.000 -> 59:15.680] leadership very briefly, I know this is quick fire but I felt this when I was
[59:15.680 -> 59:19.120] leading the Crown Prosecution Service, certainly feel it as leader of the Labour Party.
[59:21.440 -> 59:29.460] As leader, you get the plaudits. So if the Crown Prosecution Service did a fantastic job, we've had some incredible prosecutions
[59:29.460 -> 59:34.120] of major terrorist cases, and sometimes there were sort of awards, international awards
[59:34.120 -> 59:35.380] for the way in which we've done the case.
[59:35.380 -> 59:39.500] There was one terrible plot to try and bring down a number of airplanes at the same time
[59:39.500 -> 59:43.120] across the Atlantic, which got thwarted and prosecuted.
[59:43.120 -> 59:45.480] And my job was to receive the award on behalf
[59:45.480 -> 59:52.760] of the organization. But that comes with the be there bit, which is when things go wrong,
[59:52.760 -> 59:57.520] you carry the can and you carry the can for the whole organization and you take responsibility.
[59:57.520 -> 01:00:02.800] You don't go casting around for other people. So be there is a personal thing for me with
[01:00:02.800 -> 01:00:05.640] friends and family, which is the test isn't whether you're phoning every day. The test is whether you're there when the chips are down and you really need to be there is a personal thing for me with friends and family, which is the test isn't
[01:00:05.640 -> 01:00:07.120] whether you're phoning every day.
[01:00:07.120 -> 01:00:09.720] The test is whether you're there when the chips are down and you really need to be there.
[01:00:09.720 -> 01:00:11.840] But there's a bit of leadership in that.
[01:00:11.840 -> 01:00:19.000] The second would be don't bullshit.
[01:00:19.000 -> 01:00:21.000] I can't stand bullshit.
[01:00:21.000 -> 01:00:28.720] Matthew Feeney. Agreed. You know, it just does my head in and there's too much of it around.
[01:00:28.720 -> 01:00:35.440] And I suppose the third would be respect.
[01:00:35.440 -> 01:00:38.920] You've got to respect everybody in the team.
[01:00:38.920 -> 01:00:41.560] I think that'd be my three non-negotiables.
[01:00:41.560 -> 01:00:50.640] What's your greatest strength and your biggest weakness? Strength I suppose is resilience and focus. Just being able to see what I'm
[01:00:50.640 -> 01:00:55.360] trying to achieve and go for it. There's many reasons why you're gonna get
[01:00:55.360 -> 01:00:59.600] knocked off course but you gotta be utterly focused on it. In terms of
[01:00:59.600 -> 01:01:07.920] weakness, I think the undersharing is a weakness and I think the probably the time taken to really
[01:01:07.920 -> 01:01:13.200] get to trust someone is a weakness, certainly frustration.
[01:01:13.200 -> 01:01:17.680] There are probably many others but I'd say they were definitely weaknesses.
[01:01:17.680 -> 01:01:22.480] What is the thing that you feel people get wrong most often or misunderstand most about
[01:01:22.480 -> 01:01:31.200] you? get wrong most often or misunderstand most about you. Some people think that the lack of sort of extrovert passion means that there isn't a
[01:01:31.200 -> 01:01:36.700] massive deep passion to get things done and to get things changed.
[01:01:36.700 -> 01:01:40.340] People say, well, I've heard so and so speak eloquently about this issue and they seem
[01:01:40.340 -> 01:01:42.100] so passionate about it.
[01:01:42.100 -> 01:01:46.840] And that is often true. But what I, my response to that is,
[01:01:46.840 -> 01:01:48.960] I've heard so many people speak passionately
[01:01:48.960 -> 01:01:52.160] about a problem, brilliantly about a problem,
[01:01:52.160 -> 01:01:54.160] but I'm passionate about solving it.
[01:01:54.160 -> 01:01:56.400] I don't wanna keep describing the same problem
[01:01:56.400 -> 01:01:58.540] over and over again, I know what the problem is.
[01:01:58.540 -> 01:02:00.180] The passion I've got is, I need to change,
[01:02:00.180 -> 01:02:01.120] I need to solve that.
[01:02:01.120 -> 01:02:04.460] And that's the sort of inner determined passion
[01:02:04.460 -> 01:02:05.720] that isn't always
[01:02:05.720 -> 01:02:11.320] carried in the same way as the sort of articulate expression of what the problem is. And I think
[01:02:11.320 -> 01:02:16.680] some people feel that because I'm not passionately describing the problem, that somehow there
[01:02:16.680 -> 01:02:23.440] isn't the inner passion to fix the fundamentals. And they're totally, totally wrong about that.
[01:02:23.440 -> 01:02:25.960] Anybody who works with me knows that.
[01:02:25.960 -> 01:02:30.500] And I think that's what Andreina was trying to get at when she was saying what she said
[01:02:30.500 -> 01:02:32.080] about oversharing and undersharing.
[01:02:32.080 -> 01:02:37.760] If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why?
[01:02:37.760 -> 01:02:39.240] I think we've probably touched on it.
[01:02:39.240 -> 01:02:43.640] It would probably be to walk back in on my dad.
[01:02:43.640 -> 01:02:50.080] If I could take a second moment, one of the things that was a feature of my mom being very old towards the end of her life when she couldn't speak
[01:02:51.360 -> 01:02:53.260] And couldn't really move
[01:02:53.260 -> 01:02:55.080] was that
[01:02:55.080 -> 01:02:57.080] Our children never got to know her
[01:02:57.380 -> 01:03:01.740] So if somehow I could take them back to see a version of her
[01:03:02.360 -> 01:03:04.240] When she was at her best
[01:03:04.240 -> 01:03:07.920] I'd love to do that because they never
[01:03:07.920 -> 01:03:12.920] really knew her. This was not her football days, they were just young and she couldn't speak at
[01:03:12.920 -> 01:03:17.720] that stage. She couldn't feed herself or anything. And so all they knew was somebody who was,
[01:03:17.720 -> 01:03:22.480] you know, very unable to do things. And I would have loved them to have known what
[01:03:22.480 -> 01:03:27.520] she was really like, was this amazingly courageous determined funny warm mum.
[01:03:27.520 -> 01:03:29.720] What was her name?
[01:03:29.720 -> 01:03:30.720] Jo.
[01:03:30.720 -> 01:03:31.720] Jo, she sounds amazing.
[01:03:31.720 -> 01:03:35.680] If I could, yeah, if I could just take her back, take them back so they could meet my
[01:03:35.680 -> 01:03:44.200] mum at her best or you know, would be an amazingly uplifting moment and give them something that
[01:03:44.200 -> 01:03:45.840] in a sense they don't really have now.
[01:03:45.840 -> 01:03:51.840] Very nice. Final question, Keir, is really your last message to leave people with, something
[01:03:51.840 -> 01:03:57.600] ringing in their ears, your golden rule, if you like, to living a high-performance life.
[01:03:59.520 -> 01:04:05.340] If you have that feeling in the back of your mind that somehow the thing you want to do or achieve
[01:04:05.340 -> 01:04:11.140] is not for you, knock that thought out of your mind. I say this to schoolchildren a
[01:04:11.140 -> 01:04:16.180] lot because I think one of the biggest inhibitors, one of the biggest things that holds back
[01:04:16.180 -> 01:04:28.320] aspiration is that thing that somehow says to some young people, as it did to me that that thing that you might want to do isn't really
[01:04:28.320 -> 01:04:33.720] for someone like you. Get that out of your mind. And once that's out of your mind, you
[01:04:33.720 -> 01:04:35.320] can go a long way.
[01:04:35.320 -> 01:04:40.000] Brilliant. Thank you so much for the last hour and a bit. I think if nothing else, we've
[01:04:40.000 -> 01:04:46.400] proven Angela wrong now. You're no longer an undersharer. That was an insight that I
[01:04:46.400 -> 01:04:50.080] certainly have never seen before to you and the way you think and the way you've lived
[01:04:50.080 -> 01:04:55.640] and the experiences you've had. People can't vote for someone that they don't know. So
[01:04:55.640 -> 01:05:00.960] I think this opportunity for people to get to know you is just really valuable for the
[01:05:00.960 -> 01:05:07.200] people of the country. So thank you very much for the time. Thank you both very much. Thank you.
[01:05:04.800 -> 01:05:07.200] Thank you.
[01:05:08.640 -> 01:05:13.680] Damien, Jake, we do a lot of these and
[01:05:11.720 -> 01:05:16.960] that's left me quite emotionally drained
[01:05:13.680 -> 01:05:19.080] you know that it was really quite deep
[01:05:16.960 -> 01:05:21.840] and moving conversation wasn't it? Yeah
[01:05:19.080 -> 01:05:25.040] massively it was a real privilege to be
[01:05:21.840 -> 01:05:26.120] sat in the room and to see a leader like him make himself
[01:05:26.120 -> 01:05:32.400] so vulnerable and to speak so candidly and honestly. It was a rare privilege.
[01:05:32.400 -> 01:05:38.000] And I hope that the approach to this will stop the, you know, classic, oh, you're getting
[01:05:38.000 -> 01:05:42.880] political on the High Performance Podcast sort of comments and criticisms because, you
[01:05:42.880 -> 01:05:45.200] know, that was a wholly not a political conversation,
[01:05:45.200 -> 01:05:51.100] it was a human conversation. I think that, you know, effectively what Kiir is engaged
[01:05:51.100 -> 01:05:55.840] in, right, is a popularity contest and that's what an election is. And I don't think that
[01:05:55.840 -> 01:06:00.300] any of us can make a decision about who we want to lead our country unless we really
[01:06:00.300 -> 01:06:10.440] know them. Of course, like, we can understand and disagree or agree with policies and approaches and things but you still want to know the kind of like
[01:06:10.440 -> 01:06:14.800] the true heart of the person that's making the decisions right at the heart
[01:06:14.800 -> 01:06:19.800] of government I think that was the first time I've ever really seen Keir talking
[01:06:19.800 -> 01:06:24.400] that way and open up like that. Yeah he spoke about that in terms of his role in
[01:06:24.400 -> 01:06:27.920] public life is very much about transparency you don't have to agree way and open up like that. Yeah he spoke about that in terms of his role in public
[01:06:24.920 -> 01:06:29.240] life is very much about transparency. You
[01:06:27.920 -> 01:06:31.800] don't have to agree with it but this is
[01:06:29.240 -> 01:06:33.440] where I stand on it and this is what I'm
[01:06:31.800 -> 01:06:36.320] trying to achieve, this is my objective
[01:06:33.440 -> 01:06:38.920] and this is how I want to get there. But
[01:06:36.320 -> 01:06:40.720] I think there's that great quote in there from
[01:06:38.920 -> 01:06:42.160] Kierkegaard of life has to be lived
[01:06:40.720 -> 01:06:44.800] forward but only makes sense looking
[01:06:42.160 -> 01:06:47.760] back. And I think when he'd look back with
[01:06:44.800 -> 01:06:48.880] us and showed us about that like the sheer sense of injustice
[01:06:48.880 -> 01:06:52.680] of seeing his mom struggling and therefore wanting to be resilient and
[01:06:52.680 -> 01:06:57.000] make a difference that the duty of his dad and wanting just to be respected
[01:06:57.000 -> 01:07:00.600] that's a man that is being transparent with us and saying these influences have
[01:07:00.600 -> 01:07:07.920] shaped my life and subsequently what I go on to do. Now you don't have to agree with how he does it but at least you know where he stands.
[01:07:07.920 -> 01:07:14.360] Yeah I absolutely you know completely agree and I think that um hopefully that
[01:07:14.360 -> 01:07:17.080] will inform the people that listen to this podcast when they do have a
[01:07:17.080 -> 01:07:21.240] decision to make about the person they want to run the country next you know it
[01:07:21.240 -> 01:07:23.800] will it will help them make that decision and I would just say that you
[01:07:23.800 -> 01:07:26.880] know again this is not a political conversation and if the leader
[01:07:26.880 -> 01:07:30.120] of the Conservative Party wants to come on here and talk about, you know, what he
[01:07:30.120 -> 01:07:33.680] really feels and thinks and understands about the world, again this is a... we
[01:07:33.680 -> 01:07:37.680] should offer that platform, you know, this is a non-judgmental platform where you
[01:07:37.680 -> 01:07:41.520] just come and tell your truth. Yeah, we'd love that, I mean, if there was one
[01:07:41.520 -> 01:07:48.480] message that we get across so often is empathy over opinion. Let's park our opinion, our political judgments and actually let's
[01:07:48.480 -> 01:07:53.460] listen to the story of a man that's come from a loving family home that had its
[01:07:53.460 -> 01:07:58.520] struggles and has reached high political office. That's a story that's worth
[01:07:58.520 -> 01:08:02.040] listening to and if we can empathize with the journey that shaped him
[01:08:02.040 -> 01:08:08.080] suddenly we maybe learn one or two things along the way. And I'll tell you what, the one thing you feel in here is
[01:08:08.080 -> 01:08:14.100] his energy for wanting to drive and enact change and win power and put the
[01:08:14.100 -> 01:08:17.020] Labour Party back in government. There's no part of you that when you see him
[01:08:17.020 -> 01:08:21.360] talk about it in the flesh questions either his motivation or energy or his
[01:08:21.360 -> 01:08:26.040] desire like you just get this sense that every day he's
[01:08:24.160 -> 01:08:28.240] waking up with this North Star and no
[01:08:26.040 -> 01:08:30.080] matter how hard life can be the
[01:08:28.240 -> 01:08:32.240] energy comes from that every morning I
[01:08:30.080 -> 01:08:34.000] imagine he wakes up a rip like batteries
[01:08:32.240 -> 01:08:35.680] fully recharged. I mean that's
[01:08:34.000 -> 01:08:37.520] a really interesting point until you've
[01:08:35.680 -> 01:08:39.920] said it I hadn't thought it but that's a
[01:08:37.520 -> 01:08:41.440] man living a life on purpose you know
[01:08:39.920 -> 01:08:43.320] and that's and I think there's something
[01:08:41.440 -> 01:08:45.520] about that that lots of our guests have
[01:08:43.320 -> 01:08:46.300] told us about having that sense of a purpose of,
[01:08:46.300 -> 01:08:49.500] this is why I do it, and being able to plug into that,
[01:08:49.500 -> 01:08:51.100] provides its own energy source,
[01:08:51.100 -> 01:08:53.300] and Cabe was a great example of it.
[01:08:53.300 -> 01:08:54.500] I really enjoyed it, thanks mate.
[01:08:54.500 -> 01:08:58.000] Yeah, it's felt a privilege, thank you mate.
[01:08:58.000 -> 01:09:00.300] So there you have it, Sakhir Starmer,
[01:09:00.300 -> 01:09:01.600] on the High Performance Podcast,
[01:09:01.600 -> 01:09:04.500] with myself and Professor Damien Hughes.
[01:09:04.500 -> 01:09:08.000] Let me just remind you that you can also watch our interviews on YouTube
[01:09:08.000 -> 01:09:11.000] as well as listen to them here wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:09:11.000 -> 01:09:14.000] And I think this interview particularly is well worth watching.
[01:09:14.000 -> 01:09:19.000] You see the real emotion in the things that Sakia is saying and talking about.
[01:09:19.000 -> 01:09:22.000] Can I just say a huge thanks to Kier for coming on the podcast,
[01:09:22.000 -> 01:09:23.000] for sharing his thoughts with us.
[01:09:23.000 -> 01:09:25.640] I think it's a really brave thing actually for a politician to do.
[01:09:25.640 -> 01:09:28.440] You know, we all live in the era of the soundbite
[01:09:28.440 -> 01:09:31.600] and the clickbait and the headline to get attention.
[01:09:31.600 -> 01:09:33.040] And we all know that when someone comes on
[01:09:33.040 -> 01:09:35.240] and opens up like Kier did,
[01:09:35.240 -> 01:09:37.760] it opens them up to that kind of scrutiny
[01:09:37.760 -> 01:09:39.540] and unfair treatment.
[01:09:39.540 -> 01:09:41.280] But I would much rather we lived in a world
[01:09:41.280 -> 01:09:42.720] where all of our politicians,
[01:09:42.720 -> 01:09:44.440] regardless of the party,
[01:09:44.440 -> 01:09:46.640] felt comfortable talking in that way.
[01:09:46.640 -> 01:09:50.520] I think vulnerability is absolutely vital for a healthy society.
[01:09:50.520 -> 01:09:54.520] And as you heard there, Kia was truly vulnerable and very honest.
[01:09:54.520 -> 01:09:57.240] And I really hope that regardless of which party you vote for,
[01:09:57.240 -> 01:10:00.760] you understand now the value of these conversations that we're having on high performance,
[01:10:00.760 -> 01:10:08.520] not just with politicians, but with entrepreneurs and sports stars and all kinds of leaders. This is just about understanding them more. And I think it's so important to
[01:10:08.520 -> 01:10:12.800] lean into people. When you lean into people and understand them, I think it's great for
[01:10:12.800 -> 01:10:17.480] them, but it's also really good for you. And it allows you to put understanding and empathy
[01:10:17.480 -> 01:10:23.920] ahead of opinion. And with that in mind, you know, let this, let this be an invitation
[01:10:23.920 -> 01:10:26.800] to Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister. Rishi,
[01:10:26.800 -> 01:10:31.460] we would love you to come on and share in the way that Sir Keir Starmer has done with
[01:10:31.460 -> 01:10:35.920] us here on High Performance. I think whether you're already in power or looking to be elected
[01:10:35.920 -> 01:10:40.080] to power, of course, the policies and the politics is important, but what about the
[01:10:40.080 -> 01:10:50.120] person? I think so often that gets forgotten about and I love the fact we've given people an opportunity to understand Kier. Rishi, we would love to do the same for you. So we
[01:10:50.120 -> 01:10:54.360] would love to make it happen. And really apart from that, it's a big thanks to you. Thank
[01:10:54.360 -> 01:10:59.360] you so much for listening. Thank you for sharing this podcast among your community for helping
[01:10:59.360 -> 01:11:04.240] us to grow. Let me just say one last time, if you share this podcast, it's simple, it's
[01:11:04.240 -> 01:11:07.760] quick, it's easy, it's free, it allows us to grow.
[01:11:07.760 -> 01:11:10.920] If we grow, then we can attract more incredible names.
[01:11:10.920 -> 01:11:14.880] The bigger the names we attract, the bigger the impact we can have for you and the people
[01:11:14.880 -> 01:11:15.880] around you.
[01:11:15.880 -> 01:11:20.520] Please, check out the back catalogue of almost 200 high-performance podcast interviews we've
[01:11:20.520 -> 01:11:55.600] done so far, and we'll see you again soon for another episode of the High Performance Podcast. Save big on the brands you love at the Fred Meyer 5am Black Friday Sale!
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[01:12:14.000 -> 01:12:16.480] Doors open at 5 AM, so get there early.
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