E181 - Dame Stephanie Shirley: From child refugee to the Sunday Times rich list. What I’ve learned in 90 years

Dame Stephanie Shirley is a businesswoman, technology pioneer and philanthropist. Currently at the age of 89, Stephanie has had a long career championing women in the workplace and new forms of technology, including being part of the team that programmed Concorde’s black box flight recorder. After being born in Germany, Stephanie was brought over to the UK on the Kindertransport during the WWII and lived with foster parents for many years. 

This turbulent childhood has shaped Stephanie’s life and career, teaching her how valuable life is and making her determined to do something good with every day. She discusses this with Jake and Damian in this open and honest conversation, along with the importance of being disruptive and innovative in business, whilst standing up for the people who need it, among much more. 

In the beginning of her career, she used the pen name ‘Steve’ to ensure she was taken seriously by her male counterparts. She pioneered empowering women, disabled people in the workplace by allowing them to work from home, something unheard of in the 1960’s.

Stephanie shares stories of her childhood, her businesses and her personal life, in this moving and inspiring conversation. 

If you would like a personally signed copy of either of Stephanie’s books (‘So To Speak’ or ‘Let It Go’), please email pa@steveshirley.com – ALL proceeds go to Autistica.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In the 1960s, Dame Stephanie Shirley pioneered a unique business model by establishing a software company staffed primarily by women working from home. This innovative approach, prioritizing social impact over solely financial gain, aimed to empower women, disabled individuals, and families with breadwinning responsibilities. By focusing on metrics such as the number of disabled and female employees, job-sharing couples, and flexible work arrangements, Shirley's company became a trailblazer in promoting diversity and inclusivity in the workplace.

Her entrepreneurial journey began with a mere six pounds, but through sheer determination and innovative thinking, she grew the company to a valuation of 2.8 billion dollars. Shirley's success stemmed from her ability to recognize the potential of software as a standalone product, separate from hardware. This disruptive idea, coupled with her commitment to social responsibility, set her apart in the male-dominated tech industry.

Despite the initial skepticism and ridicule surrounding her business concept, Shirley persevered, driven by a deep-rooted belief in the transformative power of technology. Her innovative spirit extended beyond her own company, as she also played a pivotal role in establishing the Oxford Internet Institute in 2000. This institute focused on exploring the social, economic, legal, and ethical implications of the internet, recognizing the far-reaching impact of technology beyond its technical aspects.

Shirley's pioneering efforts in promoting diversity and inclusivity in the workplace are particularly noteworthy. In an era characterized by rampant sexism, she faced numerous obstacles and biases. To overcome these challenges, she adopted the pseudonym "Steve" to ensure her ideas and proposals received the attention they deserved. This strategic move highlights the pervasive nature of gender discrimination and the lengths women had to go to gain recognition in the professional world.

Despite the progress made in recent decades, Shirley emphasizes the ongoing need for women to support and empower one another, ensuring that future generations do not face the same barriers. She also stresses the importance of men serving as allies, actively challenging sexism and promoting gender equality.

Shirley's remarkable journey serves as an inspiration, demonstrating the transformative impact of perseverance, innovation, and a commitment to social responsibility. Her pioneering spirit and unwavering dedication to empowering women and driving positive change continue to shape the tech industry and beyond.

**Navigating Life's Challenges with Resilience and Purpose: Lessons from Dame Stephanie Shirley's Journey**

In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes engage in a thought-provoking conversation with Dame Stephanie Shirley, a pioneering businesswoman, technology expert, and philanthropist. The discussion delves into Dame Shirley's remarkable life journey, her unwavering commitment to empowering women and individuals with disabilities, and the importance of resilience, innovation, and social responsibility in achieving high performance.

**Key Insights and Takeaways:**

1. **Embracing Disruption and Innovation:**
- Dame Shirley emphasizes the significance of embracing disruption and innovation in business. She believes that successful ventures are often those that challenge the status quo, provide unique solutions, and have the potential for global impact.

2. **Championing Women and Inclusivity:**
- Throughout her career, Dame Shirley has been a staunch advocate for women's empowerment and the inclusion of individuals with disabilities in the workplace. She pioneered flexible work arrangements, allowing employees to work from home, which was unconventional in the 1960s.

3. **The Value of Patience and Long-Term Thinking:**
- Dame Shirley highlights the importance of patience and long-term thinking in achieving success. She shares examples from her own life and businesses, emphasizing that significant accomplishments often take time and dedication.

4. **Finding Hope Amidst Adversity:**
- Dame Shirley's personal life was marked by challenges, including the loss of her son Giles to autism. However, she found hope and purpose in her work, particularly in establishing charities that provide support and resources to individuals with autism and their families.

5. **The Power of Perseverance and Resilience:**
- Dame Shirley's journey is a testament to the power of perseverance and resilience. Despite setbacks and personal struggles, she remained steadfast in her commitment to making a positive impact on the world.

6. **The Importance of Legacy and Social Impact:**
- As Dame Shirley reflects on her life and career, she expresses her desire to leave a lasting legacy. She emphasizes the significance of social impact and the fulfillment that comes from using one's resources and talents to make a difference in the lives of others.

7. **Key Non-Negotiable Behaviors:**
- Dame Shirley identifies three non-negotiable behaviors that have guided her throughout her life: maintaining calmness, practicing politeness, and incorporating humor in her public speaking.

8. **Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs and Leaders:**
- Dame Shirley encourages aspiring entrepreneurs and leaders to take risks, embrace challenges, and focus on doing the right thing rather than merely doing things right. She emphasizes the importance of integrity and ethical decision-making.

9. **The Fulfillment of a Meaningful Life:**
- Dame Shirley leaves listeners with a profound message, emphasizing the significance of living a meaningful life. She stresses the importance of avoiding complacency, making the most of every day, and contributing positively to society.

In conclusion, Dame Stephanie Shirley's journey serves as an inspiration to all who seek to achieve high performance. Her unwavering commitment to innovation, social responsibility, and the empowerment of others makes her a true pioneer and a role model for aspiring leaders and entrepreneurs.

# Podcast Episode Summary:

## Introduction:

- Dame Stephanie Shirley, a business pioneer and philanthropist, is the focus of this podcast episode.
- Her remarkable career, marked by disruptive innovation and social impact, is explored.

## Early Life and Childhood:

- Stephanie Shirley's turbulent childhood shaped her perspective on life and resilience.
- She was brought to the UK on the Kindertransport during WWII, living with foster parents.
- These experiences instilled in her a deep appreciation for life and a determination to make a positive impact.

## Career and Innovations:

- Stephanie Shirley's early career involved using the pen name "Steve" to overcome gender bias in the male-dominated tech industry.
- She championed women and disabled people in the workplace, enabling them to work from home, a groundbreaking concept in the 1960s.
- Her innovative approach to empowering marginalized groups earned her recognition as a pioneer in diversity and inclusion.

## Personal Struggles and Resilience:

- Stephanie Shirley candidly shares her struggles with anorexia as a coping mechanism during a challenging period in her life.
- Despite these challenges, she demonstrated remarkable resilience, overcoming adversity and emerging stronger.

## Family and Farm Life:

- Stephanie Shirley's personal life included caring for her ailing father and managing a 250-acre farm.
- She learned to drive a tractor and manage a farm, showcasing her adaptability and resourcefulness.
- The COVID-19 pandemic presented additional challenges, but it also provided an opportunity for reflection and growth.

## Valuable Lessons and Insights:

- Stephanie Shirley emphasizes the importance of finding meaning in adversity and learning from life's challenges.
- She believes that everything happens for a reason and that there is always a positive lesson to be learned from difficult experiences.
- She encourages listeners to appreciate the good moments and find gratitude amidst life's ups and downs.

## Conclusion:

- The podcast highlights Stephanie Shirley's remarkable journey, characterized by resilience, innovation, and a commitment to making a positive impact on society.
- Her story serves as an inspiration for listeners to embrace challenges, pursue their passions, and strive for excellence in all aspects of life.

[00:00.000 -> 00:10.800] My early life as an unaccompanied child refugee at the age of five in 1939, that really has
[00:10.800 -> 00:19.600] made me, has driven me, has defined me, and in no way is that less powerful today than
[00:19.600 -> 00:23.520] it was 40 years ago, 50 years ago.
[00:23.520 -> 00:25.940] I don't fritter my days away, I like to do
[00:25.940 -> 00:31.160] something meaningful with my life, with the time that I've got. Well failure of
[00:31.160 -> 00:36.120] course is when you learn. Entrepreneurs are not made by their successes, we're
[00:36.120 -> 00:41.880] made by the fact that we can recover from our failures. Think always in terms
[00:41.880 -> 00:47.000] of doing the right thing, not just doing things right.
[00:50.000 -> 00:55.000] Welcome to the High Performance Podcast. Dame Vera, Stephanie, Shirley.
[00:56.000 -> 01:01.000] Now you might be thinking, why didn't they start as they normally do on this podcast with Jake welcoming us to the show?
[01:02.000 -> 01:05.000] Well, we decided that the words from Steve
[01:05.000 -> 01:09.000] were so powerful that we had to start with them.
[01:09.000 -> 01:11.000] And you might be thinking already,
[01:11.000 -> 01:14.000] why is Jake referring to Dame Stephanie Shirley as Steve?
[01:14.000 -> 01:16.000] Well, that's a key part of this story.
[01:16.000 -> 01:20.000] This is the story of someone who arrived in the UK
[01:20.000 -> 01:24.000] as an immigrant, being persecuted during the Second World War,
[01:24.000 -> 01:27.000] arriving on the Kindertransport with thousands of other young people,
[01:27.000 -> 01:29.000] having to find a new life for herself,
[01:29.000 -> 01:32.000] ending up going to school and university here in the UK,
[01:32.000 -> 01:35.000] and then deciding that she wanted to work in tech
[01:35.000 -> 01:38.000] at a time when it just wasn't the thing that women did.
[01:38.000 -> 01:42.000] She then decided that she wanted to set up a business by women, for women.
[01:42.000 -> 01:45.520] And again, this is in a time when if a woman came for
[01:45.520 -> 01:49.560] a job interview, the husband came with them. They didn't ask them at the interview, have
[01:49.560 -> 01:53.560] you got a phone? They had to ask them, have you got access to a phone? They had to get
[01:53.560 -> 01:58.280] the husband's permission to pay the check into the bank at the end of every month. And
[01:58.280 -> 02:02.920] people had no idea this was going on. People don't know that the first black boxes programmed
[02:02.920 -> 02:05.840] for Concord were programmed by housewives
[02:05.840 -> 02:09.320] at their kitchen tables being employed by Steve.
[02:09.320 -> 02:11.960] She then decided that as the business grew
[02:11.960 -> 02:14.760] to be worth billions, she wanted to reward her workforce.
[02:14.760 -> 02:17.840] And she created millionaire after millionaire
[02:17.840 -> 02:19.060] when she sold the business,
[02:19.060 -> 02:21.100] having handed it to some of her staff.
[02:21.100 -> 02:23.900] She then had a son who was born with autism
[02:23.900 -> 02:25.600] and she then decided to dedicate
[02:25.600 -> 02:30.200] her life to autism. But because she's an entrepreneur, she didn't just give her money to autism charities.
[02:30.200 -> 02:34.000] She created her own charities, created her own foundations, created a whole path for
[02:34.000 -> 02:39.300] herself. And as she will talk about in this episode, she's the first person to completely
[02:39.300 -> 02:44.500] fall out of the Sunday Times rich list. And it's the thing she's proudest of most because
[02:44.500 -> 02:45.040] she's given
[02:45.040 -> 02:50.200] that money away. This should be a name that everybody knows. And why does she refer to
[02:50.200 -> 02:55.240] herself as Steve? Because at the time when she was changing the game for women in the
[02:55.240 -> 03:00.280] UK and around the world, she didn't get a reply to her phone calls or her letters if
[03:00.280 -> 03:07.120] she signed them Stephanie. So she signed them Steve. And funnily enough, she got replies, she got work,
[03:07.120 -> 03:08.400] she got hired.
[03:08.400 -> 03:11.840] Please listen to this episode, take it all in.
[03:11.840 -> 03:13.680] And if you can do one thing for me,
[03:13.680 -> 03:16.640] share it with someone because this lady's story
[03:16.640 -> 03:18.160] needs to be shared.
[03:18.160 -> 03:19.680] She's a pioneer.
[03:19.680 -> 03:21.280] She's an inspiration.
[03:21.280 -> 03:23.200] She's someone who moved us all
[03:23.200 -> 03:26.120] on the day she joined us on the High Performance Podcast.
[03:26.120 -> 03:37.520] So please enjoy our conversation with Dame Vera Stephanie Steve Shelley.
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[05:47.000 -> 05:54.000] Well, Dame Stephanie, welcome to the show. Lovely to meet you.
[05:54.000 -> 05:55.000] Lovely to be here.
[05:55.000 -> 05:58.000] What is your definition of high performance?
[05:58.000 -> 06:01.000] Well, there's a good question to start with, isn't it?
[06:01.000 -> 06:06.800] High performance I really think of in terms of cars, not that I know anything about
[06:06.800 -> 06:16.800] them, but I do know that high performance depends on speed, power, and the sheer joy of driving.
[06:16.800 -> 06:21.840] They've got to be easy to use and a pleasure to drive, and that's a definition of a high
[06:21.840 -> 06:27.840] performance car. Now, speed, power, and friendliness, shall we say,
[06:27.840 -> 06:30.840] is really something that defines the sort of work
[06:30.840 -> 06:34.920] that I've been doing for the last 50-odd years,
[06:34.920 -> 06:36.840] but probably longer.
[06:36.840 -> 06:38.640] I enjoy my work.
[06:38.640 -> 06:39.720] I am quick.
[06:39.720 -> 06:41.560] I'm not as quick as I used to be,
[06:41.560 -> 06:43.800] but I have got high productivity,
[06:43.800 -> 06:47.320] and I pride myself on being able to work accurately
[06:47.320 -> 06:50.400] and fast without making too many mistakes.
[06:51.280 -> 06:56.120] I do make a lot of mistakes in management terms,
[06:56.120 -> 06:59.520] but have learned to remedy them,
[06:59.520 -> 07:02.960] brush myself down, put a big smile on my face,
[07:02.960 -> 07:04.360] and try again.
[07:04.360 -> 07:06.000] Let's start there then. How do the
[07:06.000 -> 07:09.600] people listening to this podcast learn to do the same because the fear of
[07:09.600 -> 07:13.480] failure holds so many people back in life? Well failure of course is when you
[07:13.480 -> 07:16.880] learn, when you do something successfully you know yes it's a
[07:16.880 -> 07:21.360] pleasure, it's easy, it passes the time but when you make a mistake you really
[07:21.360 -> 07:30.440] learn from it and come you know half an hour later you are a better person, a stronger person, a more varied person simply because you've
[07:30.440 -> 07:35.800] made a mistake and had to recover. So let's talk about you. I'm sure you
[07:35.800 -> 07:40.280] won't mind me telling the audience that this year you turn 90. So how much of the
[07:40.280 -> 07:47.560] person sitting in front of us today remains shaped by her
[07:44.800 -> 07:51.400] experiences of arriving here on the Kindertransport
[07:47.560 -> 07:55.240] as a refugee? Well I think all of us,
[07:51.400 -> 07:59.240] the crucible that builds our character is in
[07:55.240 -> 08:01.480] our early years and my early life as an
[07:59.240 -> 08:10.320] unaccompanied child refugee at the age of five in 1939. That really has made me, has driven me, has defined
[08:10.320 -> 08:19.560] me, and in no way is that less powerful today than it was 40 years ago, 50 years ago. Having
[08:19.560 -> 08:25.080] such an enormous change in your life, I mean apart from the trauma of a two and a
[08:25.080 -> 08:30.680] half day journey of a thousand children on a train with just two adults to look
[08:30.680 -> 08:36.880] after us, this year coming to a new country, new language, new food, new
[08:36.880 -> 08:43.400] parents because I was fostered for many years, that has really driven me in that
[08:43.400 -> 08:46.240] I can cope with that change. Nothing else that
[08:46.240 -> 08:52.320] can happen to me can match up to that change. And so I've become somebody who
[08:52.320 -> 08:58.920] can cope with change, somebody who now likes change, and since I find myself in
[08:58.920 -> 09:08.320] a position where I'm driving change, and that's useful in a digital career. It's also made me very, very conscious
[09:08.320 -> 09:16.220] that my life was saved. Now I was very young, but what I remember strongly is well-meaning
[09:16.220 -> 09:22.000] neighbours of my foster parents saying to me, aren't you lucky to be saved? Aren't
[09:22.000 -> 09:28.200] you lucky to be saved? And indeed I was, but it's left me with the feeling
[09:28.200 -> 09:32.200] that I need to justify my own existence.
[09:32.200 -> 09:34.760] And that's not a healthy feeling for a six-year-old.
[09:35.680 -> 09:39.160] But it has driven me and is still there.
[09:39.160 -> 09:40.960] I don't fritter my days away.
[09:40.960 -> 09:43.820] I like to do something meaningful with my life,
[09:43.820 -> 09:51.720] with the time that I've got. I think it all stems from that difficult early start, but it's a long time ago. I
[09:51.720 -> 09:58.840] am now, as you say, 90 this year, and I'm really still enjoying life. I'm happier
[09:58.840 -> 10:06.240] in the last few years, I think, than I have been for a long time. My son was learning disabled
[10:06.240 -> 10:11.280] and so that put a slant on my life that other people wouldn't have
[10:11.280 -> 10:16.520] experienced. I mean your answer is absolutely intriguing Dame Stephanie,
[10:16.520 -> 10:21.880] especially because it correlates with some fascinating research that's been
[10:21.880 -> 10:29.720] done over the last 20 or 30 years. you use that term about the trauma of coming over on the kinder bus and I think like many of
[10:29.720 -> 10:34.000] us often hear about post-traumatic stress but it's lesser-known cousin is
[10:34.000 -> 10:39.200] known as post-traumatic growth where some people use that trauma to find that
[10:39.200 -> 10:43.880] sense of purpose to give themselves a narrative of making a difference or
[10:43.880 -> 10:46.400] allowing no day to go wasted. I think it is this struggling to give themselves a narrative of making a difference or allowing no day to go wasted.
[10:46.400 -> 10:49.440] I think it is this struggling to give meaning to your life,
[10:49.440 -> 10:52.360] that you're not just eating and drinking,
[10:52.360 -> 10:56.520] that you actually have some meaning of the purpose that you're here.
[10:56.520 -> 10:59.960] I don't have any faith, but I do have that feeling
[10:59.960 -> 11:09.000] that it is the spiritual things in life that matter. Friendship, music, literature, poetry,
[11:09.000 -> 11:12.000] nature, friends, love,
[11:12.000 -> 11:14.000] these are the things that really matter,
[11:14.000 -> 11:16.000] all the non-material things.
[11:16.000 -> 11:19.000] So how much, when you look back then to
[11:19.000 -> 11:23.000] over the last 50 or 60 years of your life,
[11:23.000 -> 11:25.560] what specific characteristics do you think
[11:25.560 -> 11:31.040] have served you well that will learn at that crucible? I think stubbornness,
[11:31.040 -> 11:36.640] resilience, which is a term I only learned 10 years ago or something, but
[11:36.640 -> 11:41.760] this business of entrepreneurs are not made by their successes, we're made by
[11:41.760 -> 11:46.680] the fact that we can recover from our failures. There is so much
[11:46.680 -> 11:54.400] to life that to have it in a three-dimensional, meaningful way, you really have to have some
[11:54.400 -> 12:00.880] inner drive that says, this is worth doing, this is what I want to do. I don't call it
[12:00.880 -> 12:08.400] work because there's nothing else I would prefer to be doing. It's not just something I do and I'd rather be doing something else.
[12:08.400 -> 12:11.200] That's why I say nowadays I have a very happy life.
[12:11.200 -> 12:20.600] And I have got rid of the depression that followed the survivor guilt that I had as a refugee.
[12:20.600 -> 12:23.000] So tell us more about that, if you will.
[12:23.000 -> 12:32.600] Survivor guilt is that irrational feeling of guilt that you've survived when other people have not survived.
[12:32.600 -> 12:38.800] And it can hit you when you've had an accident such as a broken leg,
[12:38.800 -> 12:44.500] but it most often hits when people have had real monstrous traumas in their life,
[12:44.500 -> 12:46.840] have been facing death, and
[12:46.840 -> 12:48.980] are conscious of that.
[12:48.980 -> 12:55.440] So survivor guilt is a positive thing because it leads to that feeling of joy that you have
[12:55.440 -> 13:02.680] survived, but it also has the reverse in that it can make you very depressed.
[13:02.680 -> 13:05.560] I don't know what goes on in the mind, maybe you know better
[13:05.560 -> 13:14.800] than I, but surviving is the beginning of the next phase and that's very positive.
[13:14.800 -> 13:19.160] What's interesting though is that you didn't just survive, you thrived and we'll talk in
[13:19.160 -> 13:27.480] a moment about your businesses. 44% of the founders of the biggest companies in America are either refugees or
[13:27.480 -> 13:32.640] the children of refugees. So there is something really special here about not just surviving
[13:32.640 -> 13:38.380] but thriving from these experiences. And, you know, I think Damian and I both have that
[13:38.380 -> 13:43.020] regular concern as parents of children that are born into lovely, happy families and nice
[13:43.020 -> 13:44.020] warm houses.
[13:44.020 -> 13:45.000] That's what you aim to do for your children.
[13:45.000 -> 13:50.000] Of course, but then the question is how do we, and how do the people listening to this conversation,
[13:50.000 -> 13:54.000] create young people with the drive not just to survive but to thrive
[13:54.000 -> 13:57.600] when they haven't thankfully had to go through the traumas that you did?
[13:57.600 -> 14:02.800] I think we can set our own targets that are really, really, really difficult to achieve.
[14:02.800 -> 14:05.640] If it were easy, we'd all be millionaires.
[14:05.640 -> 14:10.600] And it isn't easy, so you have to really set out a pathway
[14:10.600 -> 14:13.360] that you can see into the future
[14:13.360 -> 14:18.040] and that the steps are in terms of a week or a month,
[14:18.040 -> 14:21.120] something really reasonable that you can get hold of
[14:21.120 -> 14:23.360] and say, have I done it this month?
[14:23.360 -> 14:24.680] Have I done it this month?
[14:24.680 -> 14:26.040] Am I better than last month? Am I better than last month?
[14:26.040 -> 14:28.240] Am I better than three months ago?
[14:28.240 -> 14:32.200] And this continual learning process is so satisfying
[14:32.200 -> 14:34.120] if you have that sort of mind.
[14:34.120 -> 14:35.880] And I think if you're an entrepreneur,
[14:35.880 -> 14:40.480] you need that sort of driving vision,
[14:40.480 -> 14:43.160] A, that you're gonna move and you're gonna move fast.
[14:43.160 -> 14:46.000] And secondly, you know what it is that you're seeking. May fast. And secondly, you know what it is that you're seeking.
[14:46.000 -> 14:50.000] You may not get it, but you know what it is that you're seeking.
[14:50.000 -> 14:53.000] So this is exactly what you did. You came to England.
[14:53.000 -> 14:56.000] You were a refugee. You were fostered.
[14:56.000 -> 15:00.000] And then turned into one of the foremost tech pioneers in the world,
[15:00.000 -> 15:02.000] of everyone, not just of women.
[15:02.000 -> 15:04.000] So how did it begin?
[15:04.000 -> 15:05.540] Because I often think you have
[15:05.540 -> 15:09.580] to see it to be it, but you didn't see it. No women were doing what you were doing.
[15:09.580 -> 15:17.100] I loved mathematics and in my first primary school, which was a Roman Catholic convent,
[15:17.100 -> 15:22.460] the nuns couldn't teach me mathematics and said to my foster parents,
[15:22.460 -> 15:29.400] this child is gifted in mathematics, she needs to go elsewhere. So I went, sat for a scholarship and to a
[15:29.400 -> 15:35.440] grammar school where they did teach mathematics and then we moved location
[15:35.440 -> 15:40.520] and the school there didn't teach that because girls were not expected to learn
[15:40.520 -> 15:48.000] science at all. So I really had to battle to continue with my math studies. And
[15:48.000 -> 15:54.280] they actually sent me to the boys' school, this in the days of unisex schooling. That
[15:54.280 -> 16:01.400] was a salutary introduction to the sexism that I would later meet in the workplace.
[16:01.400 -> 16:05.360] But basically somebody helped me, they listened to me that
[16:05.360 -> 16:11.800] this child wants to study mathematics and has the appropriate skills and they
[16:11.800 -> 16:17.320] helped me, they did went out of their way to get me the tuition that I needed and
[16:17.320 -> 16:22.000] I never forget that. Would you tell us about the battle because I'm interested
[16:22.000 -> 16:29.360] because it because it seems to define a lot of what comes later but this is a battle to be able to go and excel or
[16:29.360 -> 16:34.480] just pursue maths. Tell us what were the kind of challenges that you faced that
[16:34.480 -> 16:39.680] you had to overcome? Well we were poor as well as so it was a battle to get your
[16:39.680 -> 16:48.640] self-respect to know that inside I'm just as good as you are and it's up to me to show it and
[16:48.640 -> 16:55.280] prove it and feel it. I learned if I wanted something I had to fight for it. I have a
[16:55.280 -> 17:01.240] very clear distinction between right and wrong and that has helped me considerably. One of
[17:01.240 -> 17:07.520] my few memories of my pre-refugee days was of going for a walk in
[17:07.520 -> 17:15.000] one of Dortmund's beautiful parks and treading as a three-year-old or something, for some
[17:15.000 -> 17:21.000] reason on a beetle. And my father, who was a judge and a very distinguished gentleman,
[17:21.000 -> 17:26.040] absolutely hit the roof and he shouted, I've never heard him shout like that before,
[17:26.040 -> 17:28.580] how would you like it if a great big foot
[17:28.580 -> 17:31.340] came down and stamped on you?
[17:31.340 -> 17:34.460] And that made a big impression on me
[17:34.460 -> 17:37.220] and leaves you with this business
[17:37.220 -> 17:40.060] that do as you would be done by,
[17:40.060 -> 17:43.060] learn to walk in other people's shoes,
[17:43.060 -> 17:47.040] make sure that the person that you are is a transient person,
[17:47.040 -> 17:54.800] it's en route to something else. So, one's energy needs to be directed not to what you want to do,
[17:55.360 -> 18:00.720] but who you want to become. It's a sort of personality thing more than anything else.
[18:00.720 -> 18:07.640] And I do think entrepreneurs have a special personality. And then, well,
[18:07.640 -> 18:12.520] you can tell me perhaps whether there are different kinds of entrepreneurs. I mean,
[18:12.520 -> 18:17.680] today's entrepreneurs raise money very, very early, whereas we sort of scratched our way
[18:17.680 -> 18:29.980] up by our fingernails. And I started with six pounds only finishing up with a an organization that was valued at two point eight billion dollars.
[18:30.200 -> 18:45.000] So you can see that i can drive things but how do i do it i'm not quite sure but do it partly by example i don't ask anybody to do things that i wouldn't do they see me working just as hard as they are.
[18:45.000 -> 18:49.000] So in a way I've developed my own style of leadership.
[18:49.000 -> 18:51.000] So what was the business that you started then
[18:51.000 -> 18:53.000] with six pounds in your pocket?
[18:53.000 -> 18:57.000] And we have to try and work out how you managed to get to 2.8 billion
[18:57.000 -> 19:00.000] because I think there's an interesting story there.
[19:00.000 -> 19:04.000] Software in the early 1960s
[19:04.000 -> 19:06.800] was something that came free with the hardware.
[19:06.800 -> 19:10.200] When you bought a computer, it came with its own software.
[19:10.200 -> 19:17.800] And what I did that was diversive, disruptive,
[19:17.800 -> 19:22.700] was to think that software could be sold separately.
[19:22.700 -> 19:28.560] People laughed at that idea, but doubly so because I was talking about a
[19:28.560 -> 19:37.880] software house that was staffed almost entirely by women who were working from home with family
[19:37.880 -> 19:48.220] responsibilities. So it started off as a social business, very clearly designed for women, using as its
[19:48.220 -> 19:53.980] metrics, and how many disabled people are we employing, how many breadwinner women
[19:53.980 -> 19:58.900] are we employing, how many job share couples are we employing, using social
[19:58.900 -> 20:03.520] metrics rather than just the bottom line. And I noticed today that people are
[20:03.520 -> 20:07.680] talking about not just the bottom line, the financial results,
[20:07.680 -> 20:10.360] but the second bottom line, the social impact.
[20:10.360 -> 20:11.960] What difference does it make?
[20:11.960 -> 20:14.840] And goodness me, some people are even talking about
[20:14.840 -> 20:18.800] the third bottom line, which is the environmental impact.
[20:18.800 -> 20:20.520] It hardly gets mentioned these days
[20:20.520 -> 20:23.240] and yet it is so, so important.
[20:23.240 -> 20:26.000] But can we just go back to, there's two things in that answer that you've given. The first one is, ac iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn. Ond gallwn ni ddod yn ôl i'r ddau pethau yma
[20:26.000 -> 20:28.000] yn y gwyrwch rydych chi wedi'i roi?
[20:28.000 -> 20:30.000] Yr un gyntaf yw, sut wnaethon chi ymdrechu ag y rhidicwyl?
[20:30.000 -> 20:33.000] Mae pobl yn rhaid i mi fwri'r syniad hon,
[20:33.000 -> 20:35.000] ond, ar ôl hynny,
[20:35.000 -> 20:37.000] pan ddod o hyd i'r syniad
[20:37.000 -> 20:39.000] o wneud pethau rydyn ni'n ei edrych ar heddiw
[20:39.000 -> 20:41.000] a'i ddysgu fel pioner,
[20:41.000 -> 20:44.000] o, wydach chi'n gwybod, meddwl am agendau ddifrifol,
[20:44.000 -> 20:49.160] edrych ar y pwysau cymdeithasol o'r gwaith rydyn ni'n ei wneud. describing them as pioneering of you know thinking about diversity agendas looking at the social impacts of the work we do. You're doing this 50 years
[20:49.160 -> 20:55.440] ago. Yeah but where do ideas come from? We're always taught to work in teams and
[20:55.440 -> 21:01.680] to develop our team working but actually innovation is a solitary matter. To me it
[21:01.680 -> 21:05.520] comes sometimes when I'm
[21:03.040 -> 21:07.600] sleeping, literally I wake up in the
[21:05.520 -> 21:10.520] morning with an idea, or if I'm working
[21:07.600 -> 21:13.520] on my own. I think it comes only if you
[21:10.520 -> 21:15.840] actually know your topic, otherwise it's
[21:13.520 -> 21:17.920] just dashing around in all directions.
[21:15.840 -> 21:20.920] Well tell us about the courage to
[21:17.920 -> 21:22.480] persevere when you propose an idea and the
[21:20.920 -> 21:24.800] first, I think it was Einstein that
[21:22.480 -> 21:30.560] said that ideas are often ridiculed by mediocre minds. So people are ridiculing this idea. Where does your
[21:30.560 -> 21:35.120] perseverance or your courage to keep going? Tell us about that, what you've
[21:35.120 -> 21:39.200] learned that you could pass on to our listeners. I think the benefits of
[21:39.200 -> 21:48.200] persevering show themselves the first time you really take a project or a wish or a desire through
[21:48.200 -> 21:55.440] to fruition. And then you realize that there's a sufficient incentive to do the unusual,
[21:55.440 -> 22:00.240] to do the disruptive thing that really makes a difference, rather than tinker around the
[22:00.240 -> 22:05.680] edges of something and slightly improve it or slightly modify it or take it to another country.
[22:06.800 -> 22:10.800] I've done all those things, but the ones that really matter are the innovative things.
[22:11.360 -> 22:16.880] And in business, young people, young minds find it easier to innovate because they haven't got
[22:17.600 -> 22:29.000] into a fixed, this is the way I do things. I'm always changing. I do have systems and things that I always do in certain ways,
[22:29.000 -> 22:32.000] but they're always open to amendment.
[22:32.000 -> 22:37.000] And that sort of mindset is easier when you're young
[22:37.000 -> 22:41.000] and it becomes more and more difficult as you age.
[22:41.000 -> 22:43.000] Your performance also drops.
[22:43.000 -> 22:45.480] I'm certainly conscious of mine has dropped
[22:45.480 -> 22:52.080] but I'm still still a high performer. I don't think there is a woman living or
[22:52.080 -> 22:57.480] working in the UK today that shouldn't be thankful for the pioneering drive
[22:57.480 -> 23:00.820] that someone like you had all those years ago. I feel I've done something for
[23:00.820 -> 23:06.200] women. Yeah. My impact on the computer industry has been different. I think
[23:06.200 -> 23:12.820] I was one of the first, probably the second, to really consider the social impact of computers
[23:12.820 -> 23:18.360] as distinct from their technology. And I've done something similar in the year 2000. I
[23:18.360 -> 23:26.160] was the founding funder of the Oxford Internet Institute at a time when people were wondering if the internet was here to
[23:26.160 -> 23:33.240] stay and I'm very proud of that. That concentrates on the social, economic, legal and ethical
[23:33.240 -> 23:40.560] issues of the internet, not the technology. So I tend to stick to those sorts of things.
[23:40.560 -> 23:46.320] I'm not, I mean I was a technician, I did just help design computers, but in a very
[23:46.320 -> 23:47.320] minor sense.
[23:47.320 -> 23:56.360] I was much more a software person, and I think one would say a human resources person, because
[23:56.360 -> 24:05.360] I do really respect the people that I work with for their skills and their abilities.
[24:05.360 -> 24:09.920] And we will talk about how you respected them in just a moment, but before we get there,
[24:09.920 -> 24:13.880] I really want people to understand the person that they're listening to right now.
[24:13.880 -> 24:19.240] You know, the level of the work that you were doing means that the software for the first
[24:19.240 -> 24:23.560] black box in Concord was programmed by women working from kitchen tables, working for your
[24:23.560 -> 24:26.860] business that you had the idea to hire
[24:26.860 -> 24:28.640] and to build and to create in a world
[24:28.640 -> 24:29.800] where it wasn't happening.
[24:29.800 -> 24:31.920] So that's the level of the work you're doing.
[24:31.920 -> 24:35.680] Yet at the same time, you're calling yourself Steve,
[24:35.680 -> 24:38.680] and you are referred to now as Steve
[24:38.680 -> 24:41.000] because you are unable to get meetings,
[24:41.000 -> 24:44.040] to have phone calls answered with the name Stephanie.
[24:44.920 -> 24:45.360] The world in
[24:45.360 -> 24:49.200] which you are operating is a world unrecognizable thankfully to my daughter
[24:49.200 -> 24:54.240] and to Damien's daughter. Well this is why it's important for women to hang in
[24:54.240 -> 24:59.360] together, make sure that the men are allies and so that their daughters don't
[24:59.360 -> 25:04.160] go through the same sort of problems. I mean there are still remnants of sexism
[25:04.160 -> 25:07.180] quite strongly in the workplace,
[25:07.180 -> 25:11.640] but it's nothing compared to what it was. It's not a legal thing. I was battling against
[25:11.640 -> 25:17.680] legal issues. Women were not allowed to drive a bus, fly an airplane, work on the stock
[25:17.680 -> 25:25.720] exchange. Have a bank account. In the the States I recently learned that women were not
[25:25.720 -> 25:33.680] allowed to have a credit card until the 70s. Wow. Yeah, very late. I was 62. So
[25:33.680 -> 25:37.420] they're legal things but what about the more pernicious elements of sexism? What
[25:37.420 -> 25:41.240] were some of the examples you could share with us that give us some
[25:41.240 -> 25:46.160] context? I think it always helps if you can laugh at a problem.
[25:46.160 -> 25:51.160] And I learned to laugh off and brush off
[25:51.160 -> 25:55.360] the most examples of sexism.
[25:55.360 -> 26:00.360] I became quite assertive, but I hope not aggressive,
[26:00.720 -> 26:03.280] in my first job when strong young men
[26:03.280 -> 26:05.200] would offer to carry my equipment for me
[26:05.200 -> 26:13.740] I would say I believe in equal pay and will carry my own things and I mean that
[26:13.740 -> 26:18.820] if you want to be treated as an equal you have to do the equal job and and pay
[26:18.820 -> 26:24.320] the equal penalties of so-called success. So how do you feel all these years later
[26:24.320 -> 26:26.120] that in the UK for
[26:26.120 -> 26:30.640] example less than 10% of the leaders of FTSE 100 businesses are female or that
[26:30.640 -> 26:37.960] only 20% of the tech business employs women? It's absolutely disgraceful and
[26:37.960 -> 26:43.120] I've been saying this for 50 years and I'm turning into a bore. I think really
[26:43.120 -> 26:45.720] the women have had it very tough
[26:45.720 -> 26:47.880] in the past and still in the present.
[26:47.880 -> 26:49.880] The young women that I speak with
[26:49.880 -> 26:52.880] talk about examples of sexism.
[26:52.880 -> 26:54.440] I mean, when I was selling,
[26:54.440 -> 26:56.160] I used to get my bottom pinched.
[26:56.160 -> 26:57.320] And you know, you're trying to sell
[26:57.320 -> 27:00.960] a six-figure software business to some junior minister
[27:00.960 -> 27:02.840] and he's trying to pinch your bottom.
[27:02.840 -> 27:11.280] I mean, it's very hard to sort of retain your natural humanity. Of course. Tell us then, what kind of things
[27:11.280 -> 27:17.440] can we do to try to challenge the sexism that still exists? Maybe not as
[27:17.440 -> 27:21.040] extreme as you described but what advice can you give to people that want to be
[27:21.040 -> 27:25.520] allies to change that? I mean allies are people who do things to help,
[27:25.520 -> 27:31.040] but also they speak out the slightest racism or sexism.
[27:31.040 -> 27:34.640] You speak out and make sure that everybody knows
[27:34.640 -> 27:38.440] that that is not acceptable in your presence.
[27:38.440 -> 27:43.760] And it may mean I've turned into somewhat of a prig,
[27:43.760 -> 28:07.860] but I don't put up with certain behaviors. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you.
[28:07.860 -> 28:08.860] That's right!
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[28:49.400 -> 28:53.200] Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone.
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[30:38.360 -> 30:39.160] You mentioned how much you like to reward your staff, I think this is the next
[30:42.160 -> 30:45.960] Example of your pioneering mindset. So you've set this business up, you've created a business by women, for women,
[30:45.960 -> 30:49.240] and then this business is valued at billions of pounds,
[30:49.240 -> 30:53.380] and the moment comes when you get the chance to sell.
[30:53.380 -> 30:57.500] And in the process, 70 of your staff become millionaires.
[30:57.500 -> 31:00.300] So again, in an era where shared ownership of businesses
[31:00.300 -> 31:02.320] was absolutely not the norm,
[31:02.320 -> 31:04.220] and even in an era now where every time you turn
[31:04.220 -> 31:05.700] on Instagram or listen to other podcasts,
[31:05.700 -> 31:07.900] it's all about making yourself as rich as possible
[31:07.900 -> 31:09.500] and as successful as possible.
[31:09.500 -> 31:12.600] Where did the desire to share your wealth come from?
[31:12.600 -> 31:15.600] Well, I think my colleagues had helped me build the company
[31:15.600 -> 31:18.200] to an extreme extent.
[31:18.200 -> 31:19.700] In the early days of the business,
[31:19.700 -> 31:24.300] we paid not particularly well, but reasonably,
[31:24.300 -> 31:28.560] but we paid very slowly, and the staff accepted
[31:28.560 -> 31:29.560] that.
[31:29.560 -> 31:35.240] They were all freelancers and consultants rather than salaried staff.
[31:35.240 -> 31:48.040] And when we got out of the 70s recession, it seemed obvious to me that the people who had helped me through that period should benefit from the upcoming
[31:48.040 -> 31:50.040] successes.
[31:50.040 -> 31:52.960] So many people, though, don't think like that, though, do they?
[31:52.960 -> 31:55.600] They see the success of a business and they think, well done me.
[31:55.600 -> 31:57.800] They don't realize that life's a team sport.
[31:57.800 -> 32:06.840] If I have any skill, it's in encouraging young people to grow into really good leaders.
[32:09.080 -> 32:12.300] I noticed the same is happening in my charities. The top management is now people that worked with me
[32:12.300 -> 32:15.380] 20 years ago, and whom I've selected.
[32:16.240 -> 32:17.660] So I like people.
[32:18.600 -> 32:21.460] They don't necessarily like me.
[32:21.460 -> 32:22.600] It doesn't worry me.
[32:22.600 -> 32:23.440] As long as-
[32:23.440 -> 32:34.000] Why do you say that? Because I've had failures with people and it doesn't worry me because I want to be respected rather than liked.
[32:34.000 -> 32:36.000] It's nice if you get both.
[32:36.000 -> 32:40.000] This is a fascinating area that lads pursue that these people that you've selected,
[32:40.000 -> 32:48.620] whether it's in the charities that we'll come to in a while or in the business when you first set it up. What were the kind of characteristics that you were
[32:48.620 -> 32:53.820] looking for to make that selection decision? I was with one of my charities
[32:53.820 -> 32:59.220] recently and somebody used the expression value recruitment and I
[32:59.220 -> 33:02.680] always question things if I don't know what they mean so I said what's that I
[33:02.680 -> 33:09.600] haven't heard that term before and And it is recruiting not on performance, but on values.
[33:09.900 -> 33:13.500] And I realized that that is how I have always recruited
[33:13.500 -> 33:16.700] people who know the difference between right and wrong,
[33:16.700 -> 33:19.700] who are ambitious, who are stable.
[33:20.700 -> 33:23.600] Though we've had our mistakes there as well.
[33:24.600 -> 33:27.280] But I'm definitely recruiting on values.
[33:27.280 -> 33:31.600] And I want to surround myself with people who are
[33:31.600 -> 33:36.720] better than I am in all the different varieties of work.
[33:36.720 -> 33:40.320] And it's so exciting when you're building up a business
[33:40.320 -> 33:44.640] to suddenly find that you've got not one person who can do this,
[33:44.640 -> 33:47.000] but perhaps two people who can do this.
[33:47.000 -> 33:53.000] Then you've got a group that can do this, then you've got a division that can do this.
[33:53.000 -> 34:00.000] They gradually grew to, we employed 8,500 people when we were taken over in 2007.
[34:00.000 -> 34:06.520] But it wasn't me that did it, I'd got professional managers in by that time We have many
[34:06.520 -> 34:13.000] Entrepreneurs and business owners that listen to this podcast. What what is the key question you love to ask when you're hiring people? I
[34:14.040 -> 34:16.040] Usually ask about mistakes
[34:16.240 -> 34:20.360] In that it tells you a lot about the attitude of people not about the mistake
[34:20.360 -> 34:25.000] But about their their attitude to to things that go wrong.
[34:25.000 -> 34:26.500] What's your biggest?
[34:26.500 -> 34:28.240] Fairly classic one.
[34:28.240 -> 34:32.400] I had a success in the UK with my company
[34:32.400 -> 34:36.400] and I tried to replicate it first in Denmark,
[34:37.780 -> 34:40.660] then in Holland, then in the States.
[34:40.660 -> 34:42.640] And none of them really took off.
[34:42.640 -> 34:46.960] I mean, they survived, they washed their face. You know, if you're doing something at all,
[34:46.960 -> 34:49.480] it's got to be disruptive, it's got to be different,
[34:49.480 -> 34:50.760] and it's got to be big,
[34:50.760 -> 34:53.200] which probably means it's got to be international.
[34:53.200 -> 34:59.120] But I started thinking at the time when Asia was coming forward
[34:59.120 -> 35:05.000] that we could export the writing of software to India.
[35:06.400 -> 35:11.400] And did a very crude feasibility study of that.
[35:11.840 -> 35:14.800] It was a very cheap labor force at that time.
[35:14.800 -> 35:18.460] And I was writing papers about it in the computing world.
[35:18.460 -> 35:22.560] But then realized that 20 years later,
[35:22.560 -> 35:26.720] we actually had 4,000 people working in India.
[35:26.720 -> 35:31.680] It was no longer a cheap labor force, it was a labor force in short supply.
[35:31.680 -> 35:34.920] And the whole scene looked very different.
[35:34.920 -> 35:38.480] But most of the things that I've done have taken a long time.
[35:38.480 -> 35:46.400] 11 years to go to co-ownership, 17 years to take my first charity to sustainability.
[35:46.400 -> 35:49.720] These are long periods obviously in parallel.
[35:49.720 -> 35:54.200] I think that is an intriguing area to explore though Steve,
[35:54.200 -> 35:57.120] in terms of the power of patience.
[35:57.120 -> 36:00.840] And you've obviously demonstrated a real aptitude for that.
[36:00.840 -> 36:04.480] What advice would you give people listening to this
[36:04.480 -> 36:05.400] about the benefits of patience and indeed how they can nurture that? What advice would you give people listening to this about the
[36:05.400 -> 36:10.080] benefits of patience and indeed how they can nurture that? Well if you're patient
[36:10.080 -> 36:13.280] you've always got some hope that you're going to get out of this muddle and
[36:13.280 -> 36:18.640] things will improve and in general things do improve, they can improve and
[36:18.640 -> 36:35.600] if you have the right culture in the business they will improve. I expose working as a team to deal with problems, to go for successes, to mourn the losses,
[36:35.600 -> 36:39.520] but I've always made it a habit still to celebrate.
[36:39.520 -> 36:44.200] When we've had to close a business down, for example, we always finish up with a celebration,
[36:44.200 -> 36:48.160] getting everybody together, having a lovely meal out and plenty of wine and
[36:48.160 -> 36:52.680] making sure that everybody knows this was a good job, all right we've had to
[36:52.680 -> 36:58.320] close it down, there's quality work done here, Mary did this, Joe did that, there's
[36:58.320 -> 37:03.280] no time to just feel sorry for yourself that this has happened, we're just moving
[37:03.280 -> 37:07.900] on. I love that, patience buys you hope, I'm gonna live with that one from now on.
[37:07.900 -> 37:11.900] I want to move on to the next part of your story,
[37:11.900 -> 37:16.300] and I understand that this may well be quite emotional and very close to home for you.
[37:16.300 -> 37:21.500] I want to talk about Giles, your son who was born. Tell us about him.
[37:21.500 -> 37:25.360] Well, my whole life changed from being a scientist
[37:25.360 -> 37:29.800] to being an autism worker
[37:29.800 -> 37:34.800] because my late son, Giles, was profoundly autistic.
[37:36.640 -> 37:41.640] He'd been born a much-wanted, desired baby,
[37:41.780 -> 37:47.360] a beautiful baby boy, and I know every mother thinks that, but he was lovely.
[37:47.360 -> 37:54.800] And it started off, I'd aimed to give him a very calm childhood because mine had been so turbulent.
[37:55.360 -> 38:01.520] So we did live quietly in the country until at the age of about two and a half,
[38:08.920 -> 38:18.200] age of about two and a half, Giles changed over a matter of days between being a calm, happy baby to being a wild, unmanageable toddler, hyperkinetic, totally unaware of danger, lost
[38:18.200 -> 38:24.600] eye contact, and he went through what's called a regression. And there are a few illnesses
[38:24.600 -> 38:26.680] and things that have regression,
[38:26.680 -> 38:28.600] and autism is one of them.
[38:28.600 -> 38:32.000] So it seems that autism was something that he had from birth,
[38:32.000 -> 38:34.840] but only exhibited itself later on.
[38:34.840 -> 38:38.000] And it has set the tone of the whole of the rest of my life.
[38:38.000 -> 38:39.160] What do I do this morning?
[38:39.160 -> 38:43.240] I'm writing things on autism, I'm reading papers on autism.
[38:43.240 -> 38:45.780] That's what I now do, because again I'm
[38:45.780 -> 38:52.280] driven by that inner compulsion that I don't want other children to be brought up in such
[38:52.280 -> 38:58.960] an alien environment as many autistic children have to cope with. I got him into a little
[38:58.960 -> 39:09.680] nursery school for one term until he flinched when I waved and I realized somebody had been hitting him.
[39:09.680 -> 39:15.120] When you've got a child that has lost speech, euphemistically one says pre-speech, but actually
[39:15.120 -> 39:17.360] it means no speech.
[39:17.360 -> 39:19.840] So Giles did not speak again ever.
[39:19.840 -> 39:29.600] So I took him away from that school and had him at home and then found a little weekly boarding school which was very good for him and really what I've
[39:29.600 -> 39:34.880] learned is that autistic children need a very structured environment, they need
[39:34.880 -> 39:40.280] teaching in a different way and they need a lot of patience in order to get
[39:40.280 -> 39:45.960] that hope I suppose. How did you remain hopeful through all of this?
[39:45.960 -> 39:50.040] Well, I didn't, because after some years,
[39:50.040 -> 39:53.920] I cracked up and had a good old-fashioned nervous breakdown,
[39:53.920 -> 39:55.880] finished up in hospital.
[39:55.880 -> 39:59.560] And because I was the carer for Giles,
[39:59.560 -> 40:01.880] he also had to go to hospital.
[40:01.880 -> 40:11.240] And he spent the next 13 years in a mental health hospital. It's
[40:11.240 -> 40:21.480] an asylum, really, where they contained him. We visited every week, and first of all, we
[40:21.480 -> 40:25.120] brought him home for one night, then we couldn't manage that even.
[40:25.120 -> 40:28.160] So then we just visited there.
[40:28.160 -> 40:34.480] Places like that don't have facilities really for visitors, because they have very few visitors,
[40:34.480 -> 40:38.480] the people there are largely isolated, neglected.
[40:38.480 -> 40:43.320] So we used to visit every Saturday and spend the day with him picnicking in the grounds.
[40:43.320 -> 40:46.320] So we'd take a picnic and it was something, he likes food.
[40:46.320 -> 40:50.720] And so we had some semblance of family life together.
[40:50.720 -> 40:52.960] That's fine in summer, it sounds quite idyllic
[40:52.960 -> 40:55.580] as hospital had good grounds,
[40:55.580 -> 40:59.040] but then in winter it's not so funny
[40:59.040 -> 41:02.920] when you're sort of cowering under a heat reflecting sheet
[41:02.920 -> 41:05.200] in order to have some sort of time together,
[41:05.200 -> 41:11.200] because there were no facilities for visitors. And then things got more difficult in the hospital,
[41:11.200 -> 41:16.000] and I was no longer happy with the care that he was getting, because I had been happy,
[41:16.000 -> 41:26.900] basic though it was, I had been happy with it. And my business being successful by then, we decided to look after him again ourselves,
[41:26.900 -> 41:30.080] this time with paid help.
[41:30.080 -> 41:33.040] And so we started, we had, my mother died
[41:33.040 -> 41:35.080] and she left us a little bit of money
[41:35.080 -> 41:38.200] and we bought a tiny little cottage near the hospital
[41:38.200 -> 41:40.460] so we could take him out to the hospital.
[41:41.460 -> 41:48.000] And then we employed staff that would look after him there during the week.
[41:48.000 -> 41:55.320] Then we employed more staff and looked after two people, and three people,
[41:55.320 -> 41:57.040] and we made it into a charity.
[41:57.040 -> 42:03.040] And today that charity, of which I'm enormously proud, gosh, it cost a lot,
[42:03.040 -> 42:09.600] in pain, not money, it cost about two or three million,
[42:09.600 -> 42:15.340] but in pain it was very hard to get going, especially in a way because my Giles was one
[42:15.340 -> 42:19.540] of the people there, and at the same time I was trying to chair the trustees and make
[42:19.540 -> 42:25.320] sure that we did the right thing. But nowadays, Kingwood, it's called autism at Kingwood,
[42:25.320 -> 42:31.220] Kingwood is where we used to live, looks after 150 people, sort of modelled on my
[42:31.220 -> 42:36.960] child's, these are people with profound autism, and looks after another hundred
[42:36.960 -> 42:43.960] people with Asperger's, people of high intellect who can live independently,
[42:43.960 -> 42:46.240] but need sort of one day a week making sure
[42:46.240 -> 42:48.400] that all is well, checking up on their money,
[42:48.400 -> 42:51.040] checking up on how they're doing.
[42:51.040 -> 42:55.080] And that serves five counties of England.
[42:55.080 -> 42:58.960] Can I ask you about the moment that you described
[42:58.960 -> 43:01.840] where you suffered a nervous breakdown yourself?
[43:01.840 -> 43:04.760] Because as somebody that had lived through
[43:04.760 -> 43:06.620] some of the trauma of your childhood
[43:06.620 -> 43:10.780] and then you've gone and revolutionized the workplace
[43:11.640 -> 43:13.480] in the ways that you did,
[43:13.480 -> 43:15.600] what did you learn from that period
[43:15.600 -> 43:19.760] where you did break down that allowed you to come back
[43:19.760 -> 43:22.220] galvanized and stronger to make a difference
[43:22.220 -> 43:23.980] in the charity sector?
[43:23.980 -> 43:29.680] I learned that I was not superwoman. I learned that I couldn't go on doing it all.
[43:29.680 -> 43:36.680] Running a business, running a family, struggling to get schooling for my jowls and so on.
[43:36.680 -> 43:40.480] I learned to say no to the many requests that I get.
[43:40.480 -> 43:49.880] I learned to take care of myself, mind, body, and spirit, so that I now do take time for
[43:49.880 -> 43:50.880] myself.
[43:50.880 -> 43:53.600] I swim two or three times a week.
[43:53.600 -> 44:01.160] I make sure that my lifestyle is healthy, and I do things for pleasure.
[44:01.160 -> 44:02.320] And I used not to do that.
[44:02.320 -> 44:04.200] It used to be all work.
[44:04.200 -> 44:05.540] And so I did learn quite a lot.
[44:05.540 -> 44:09.840] So I don't think I'm in danger of breaking down again. No and your idea of
[44:09.840 -> 44:13.380] not all work is probably different to lots of people's because you know you
[44:13.380 -> 44:18.380] still work very hard. Giles sadly passed away at the age of 35. How much of the
[44:18.380 -> 44:24.180] energy that you have now for the autism charities that you set up remains from
[44:24.180 -> 44:25.560] from the love you had for your boy?
[44:25.560 -> 44:30.960] Oh, entirely. It's not something I would have ever thought was suitable for me in any way.
[44:30.960 -> 44:38.480] Surprisingly, both after the death of Giles and the death of, more recent death of my husband,
[44:38.480 -> 44:45.760] I had a sort of burst of creative energy. You sort of think, was that being blocked before because I was
[44:45.760 -> 44:51.560] so focused on family matters, but had enormous energy, not necessarily highly
[44:51.560 -> 44:55.860] productive, but it was enormous energy. Bit like women get just before they have
[44:55.860 -> 45:01.120] their babies, you get some nesting. I think the other part of your story that
[45:01.120 -> 45:04.880] I want people to understand is that you didn't just set up an autism charity
[45:04.880 -> 45:05.280] with the billions of pounds you had in the bank and give a few thousand to Part of your story that I want people to understand is that you didn't just set up an autism charity
[45:09.620 -> 45:10.220] With the billions of pounds you had in the bank and give a few thousand to charity
[45:16.060 -> 45:18.680] You are the first person to fall completely out of the Sunday Times rich list you I'm very proud of that. Are you? Tell us why?
[45:18.680 -> 45:22.460] I didn't know it was gonna happen, but I don't want to finish up in penury
[45:23.080 -> 45:25.800] But I am basically giving all my money
[45:25.800 -> 45:32.560] away because what else can I do with it? I have no family, I enjoy my work, I understand
[45:32.560 -> 45:39.720] the autism sector, and that's where I now put money in. I used to support the IT sector,
[45:39.720 -> 45:45.840] but lots of people do that, and autism, I'm a major player in the sector,
[45:45.840 -> 45:48.200] and I feel I've made a bit of difference there.
[45:48.200 -> 45:50.440] I would also say you're an autism entrepreneur, though,
[45:50.440 -> 45:52.520] because it's one thing to take your money
[45:52.520 -> 45:54.840] and give it to charities that already exist.
[45:54.840 -> 45:58.080] It's highly entrepreneurial to decide to build charities,
[45:58.080 -> 46:01.640] build foundations, hire people, run PR campaigns,
[46:01.640 -> 46:04.000] generate awareness, all the things you had to do
[46:04.000 -> 46:07.400] to create a business, you've had to do to create the charities that you have.
[46:07.400 -> 46:10.160] People think philanthropy is very, very different to business.
[46:10.160 -> 46:12.320] It isn't. I find it very similar.
[46:12.320 -> 46:17.360] The only difference is that the metrics are social rather than financial.
[46:17.360 -> 46:20.000] I find everyone's doing exactly the same sort of thing,
[46:20.000 -> 46:23.520] feasibility studies, impact assessments.
[46:23.520 -> 46:27.200] But it's of a scale at the moment that I can
[46:27.200 -> 46:35.120] manage quite easily because I aim, if I set up a charity, the aim is for it to be sustainable,
[46:35.120 -> 46:40.920] by which I mean managerially and financially independent of me. And my first charity took
[46:40.920 -> 46:46.240] 17 years, and my second charity took five years, my second charity took five years, my third charity
[46:46.240 -> 46:52.240] took two years, so you can see I'm a learning person, but those are long
[46:52.240 -> 46:58.120] periods of time to make sure that charity is stable, that it's got its risk
[46:58.120 -> 47:06.220] assessment, it's got its personnel policies, it's got it's set up as a corporate that can survive on
[47:06.220 -> 47:12.360] its own. Autistica, the third charity that I set up is probably the most strategic
[47:12.360 -> 47:16.920] of the lot, but it's the smallest. So they're all very different. But we
[47:16.920 -> 47:22.240] interviewed an American author called Mark Manson and in his book he talks
[47:22.240 -> 47:26.640] about how lots of successful people often indulge in
[47:26.640 -> 47:30.600] what he calls immortality projects. So it's the idea that they want their name
[47:30.600 -> 47:36.120] to live on in perpetuity. And yet what's significant about your example is that
[47:36.120 -> 47:41.640] this seems incredibly selfless rather than selfish. So what's the kind of
[47:41.640 -> 47:46.000] legacy that you want to leave behind with these charities?
[47:46.000 -> 47:52.000] Well, if you'd asked me that two or three years ago, maybe a bit longer, I would have
[47:52.000 -> 47:56.480] said I'm not interested in legacy at all, I haven't had things named after me and so
[47:56.480 -> 47:57.480] on.
[47:57.480 -> 48:08.640] But then I closed down the foundation, the Shirley Foundation, and saw an old-fashioned paper file of all its minutes
[48:08.640 -> 48:13.920] over 25 years or something like that. And I thought, this really should be saved. It's the
[48:13.920 -> 48:21.360] story of a successful charity that was set up, run, and closed down professionally.
[48:28.400 -> 48:34.880] closed down professionally. And so I approached Kent University, who have some specialization in charity work, and they were interested, and it developed into putting the Shirley
[48:34.880 -> 48:40.920] Foundation into their archives. And I found that was very satisfying. So the foundation
[48:40.920 -> 48:48.640] was going to last forever in its archives. But that grew really, that I
[48:48.640 -> 48:56.560] then started thinking in terms of legacies, and today I am interested in legacy. I think
[48:56.560 -> 49:08.880] it's a matter of age, it's as simple as that. I'm interested in how I'm viewed by the next generation. Has all the work and effort paid off? I
[49:08.880 -> 49:13.880] would say resoundingly yes, but there's always a little bit more that one can do.
[49:13.880 -> 49:18.200] I think that's the way to end before we move to our final quickfire questions.
[49:18.200 -> 49:21.920] Dame Stephanie or Steve, what would you like people to say?
[49:21.920 -> 49:26.000] Well she was worth saving, I think that's the...
[49:26.000 -> 49:28.000] Because I'm still stuck with that refugee,
[49:28.000 -> 49:30.000] you know, once a refugee, always a refugee.
[49:30.000 -> 49:32.000] So do you think that you were then?
[49:32.000 -> 49:34.000] We talk often with people on the podcast
[49:34.000 -> 49:36.000] about there is no yet, there's no end,
[49:36.000 -> 49:38.000] it's all about a process. Have you
[49:38.000 -> 49:40.000] come to terms with this in your own head,
[49:40.000 -> 49:42.000] that absolutely you were worth saving,
[49:42.000 -> 49:44.000] you have done more than you could have ever imagined?
[49:44.000 -> 49:45.680] Or is it still a battle?
[49:45.680 -> 49:53.440] It's not a battle anymore, but I don't fritter days away. I feel that I need to justify my
[49:53.440 -> 50:00.840] own existence. I mean, we never went on holidays, really. I mean, we had one or two, but just
[50:00.840 -> 50:07.180] to be living and eating and enjoying and when there are things that need doing
[50:07.180 -> 50:09.320] that I can do.
[50:09.320 -> 50:11.680] So our quickfire questions.
[50:11.680 -> 50:16.440] What are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and ideally the people around you
[50:16.440 -> 50:18.300] would buy into?
[50:18.300 -> 50:21.680] I believe that I want always to be calm.
[50:21.680 -> 50:26.400] I don't want to lose my temper and and I did when I was much earlier,
[50:26.400 -> 50:29.640] and I haven't lost my temper for 25 years.
[50:29.640 -> 50:33.240] And polite, it sounds a wishy-washy word,
[50:33.240 -> 50:36.160] but I go into a meeting
[50:36.160 -> 50:42.360] intending to work with others, to listen to the others,
[50:42.360 -> 50:45.000] and come to some joint conclusion
[50:47.080 -> 50:50.160] rather than tell them what I want them to do.
[50:50.160 -> 50:53.400] And that's held me in good stead.
[50:53.400 -> 50:56.480] Now, I like to be humorous in my public speaking.
[50:56.480 -> 51:00.920] I do use jokes, usually at my own expense,
[51:00.920 -> 51:03.840] but sometimes there's sort of snide, sexist remarks
[51:03.840 -> 51:05.560] that for women's
[51:05.560 -> 51:10.120] organizations I can say all sorts of things. I do talk a lot for women's
[51:10.120 -> 51:18.080] organizations. International Women's Day is coming up in March and that always
[51:18.080 -> 51:27.080] focuses attention on the role of women worldwide even today. Can I ask you, this isn't part of the
[51:27.080 -> 51:31.360] quickfire but you've got this brilliant book out which is a curated version of
[51:31.360 -> 51:36.160] your speeches so to speak. I've got other books as well. No, no, I know you have that
[51:36.160 -> 51:40.040] hopefully they're gonna be made into TV series but I want to ask you about one
[51:40.040 -> 51:45.820] of the speeches here about why do ambitious women have flat heads? You need
[51:45.820 -> 51:50.380] to explain that to us. Well in 2015 I spoke to the TED organization in
[51:50.380 -> 51:57.400] Vancouver and they're very good at actually making sure that their speakers
[51:57.400 -> 52:02.480] give, as they say, the very best speech of their life and they certainly gave got
[52:02.480 -> 52:08.680] that out of me. Very careful briefing, very careful practice runs and so on.
[52:08.680 -> 52:13.240] And I wanted to liven things up and it was a very serious talk.
[52:13.240 -> 52:22.080] I put this bit in that ambitious women have flat heads and they're flat because so many
[52:22.080 -> 52:26.060] people have patted us on the head and said there there dear
[52:26.060 -> 52:35.380] it'll... so that's why women have flat heads. So what advice would you give to a teenage
[52:35.380 -> 52:40.680] Stephanie just starting out on your journey? One advice is that it'll be
[52:40.680 -> 52:46.480] alright a positive thing you know off, concentrate on things that you
[52:46.480 -> 52:52.720] know and care about, take a risk, haven't talked much about risk, but take a risk,
[52:53.520 -> 52:59.120] and then just do it. If it succeeds, all well and good, if it doesn't, you can always start
[52:59.120 -> 53:06.200] something else. You don't even have to give up your current job in order to start to do a startup.
[53:06.200 -> 53:13.580] You can work evenings and weekends to see if the startup has a chance of success.
[53:13.580 -> 53:16.720] And it is so exciting and you get so much of it.
[53:16.720 -> 53:18.960] Go ahead, go ahead and I'll help you.
[53:18.960 -> 53:20.320] I love that.
[53:20.320 -> 53:23.760] And the final question and Rizk may well come into the answer.
[53:23.760 -> 53:26.200] For the people that have listened to this compelling conversation,
[53:26.200 -> 53:31.200] your one golden rule for them to go on and live their own high-performance life.
[53:31.200 -> 53:37.800] Think always in terms of doing the right thing, not just doing things right.
[53:37.800 -> 53:39.400] What a finish.
[53:39.400 -> 53:43.800] Listen, on behalf of both of us, the whole team here at High Performance,
[53:43.800 -> 53:47.800] but for people that you've inspired, thank you so much for joining us on High Performance.
[53:47.800 -> 53:49.400] Thank you for your kind words.
[53:49.400 -> 53:53.400] And you have a couple of books in front of you, which is an exciting project for you.
[53:53.400 -> 54:01.200] Well, Let It Go was written in 2012 and was revised in 2019,
[54:01.200 -> 54:04.000] published by Penguin, and is a memoir.
[54:04.000 -> 54:07.360] It's not an autobiography in that it's not
[54:07.360 -> 54:11.480] factual in the sense that it was Thursday afternoon and I went to Buckingham Palace
[54:11.480 -> 54:17.280] to get my medal or whatever. It's talking about moods and how I felt about things and
[54:17.280 -> 54:27.340] how relationships, I think, as we've been talking today, are so important to me. It's not exactly a bestseller list, but it has sold very well
[54:27.640 -> 54:29.640] It's been published in German
[54:30.200 -> 54:33.640] And is just currently being translated into Spanish
[54:33.640 -> 54:40.960] Oh, wow, so it is beginning to get get known and it will be the basis of a TV series
[54:40.960 -> 54:44.440] We hope watch this space and something will happen
[54:44.440 -> 54:45.360] We have We have a
[54:45.360 -> 54:48.680] high-performance book club, thousands of members and they talk and they share
[54:48.680 -> 54:51.900] books they love. If you were to contribute one book to the high
[54:51.900 -> 54:54.880] performance book club, what would it be? Of course it would be my own, wouldn't it?
[54:54.880 -> 54:58.160] Apart from your own, you're not allowed to mention your own. That's against the rules.
[54:58.160 -> 55:04.880] What would you go for? Oh my goodness me, probably something like Diary of Anne Frank,
[55:04.880 -> 55:06.240] something like that.
[55:06.240 -> 55:11.920] I know that you said that we haven't spoken a lot about risk. What's the one piece of advice
[55:11.920 -> 55:18.560] you'd give to people listening about risk? Risk is not as risky as it might look.
[55:19.840 -> 55:26.540] There are so many opportunities to recover from poor decisions.
[55:26.540 -> 55:30.000] You restrict yourself so much if you don't take any risks
[55:30.000 -> 55:33.500] and just stay within your comfort zone.
[55:33.500 -> 55:37.900] And if you want a full life, if you want a meaningful life,
[55:37.900 -> 55:41.980] risk is probably a necessary ingredient.
[55:41.980 -> 55:43.060] What a way to finish.
[55:43.060 -> 55:46.080] ♪♪ Damien. Jake. ingredient? What a way to finish.
[55:51.560 -> 55:56.840] Damien, Jake, what a remarkable conversation. It's humbling in the extreme isn't it, to hear somebody of that age, that's had the life experiences that
[55:56.840 -> 56:00.800] they've had to be able to speak with such clarity and such sense of certainty and
[56:00.800 -> 56:08.940] the wisdom they're passing on, it's been incredibly humbling. I think that there's a really important story here in an era where, you know,
[56:08.940 -> 56:12.300] we're living through our own challenges, which is, you know, the cost of living
[56:12.300 -> 56:17.280] crisis, you know, the war that's happening in Ukraine, all the kind of social and
[56:17.280 -> 56:21.180] economic issues that face us today, you know, thankfully none of those even come
[56:21.180 -> 56:26.280] close to the experiences that, you know that Steve had being put under kinder transport
[56:26.280 -> 56:32.020] from Vienna at five years old on her own, no parents, no family and being fostered.
[56:32.020 -> 56:35.280] Yet she made something amazing out of her life. And I just want people to understand
[56:35.280 -> 56:39.800] that regardless of your situation, regardless of where you are now, the start point is not
[56:39.800 -> 56:45.520] the end point. And we have to generate the kind of mindset that she managed to generate
[56:45.520 -> 56:49.680] which was this is this is where I am today but this is not where I'll end.
[56:49.680 -> 56:56.640] Yeah and I think we use that phrase we introduced it to Steve around post
[56:56.640 -> 57:01.920] traumatic growth and I think that we often very understandably get caught up
[57:01.920 -> 57:07.980] in understanding post-traumatic stress and the consequences of how these experiences can often leave us
[57:07.980 -> 57:10.640] Stuck off or disable us in some ways
[57:11.100 -> 57:16.520] but what the research tells us it started looking at prisoners from the Korean War of
[57:17.340 -> 57:22.820] those that had experienced extreme hardship and how they'd learn to make sense of that experience and give
[57:23.340 -> 57:25.320] their life a sense of meaning.
[57:25.320 -> 57:28.440] And I think when Steve Spokes was about,
[57:28.440 -> 57:31.360] her legacy is, I was worth saving.
[57:31.360 -> 57:33.680] The idea of not wasting a single day.
[57:33.680 -> 57:36.560] He starts to say, well, how can we plug into
[57:36.560 -> 57:40.160] that same sense of purpose in our own lives?
[57:40.160 -> 57:43.360] How can we imbue it with a sense of meaning
[57:43.360 -> 57:45.640] that means that everything that we do matters?
[57:45.640 -> 57:47.800] Yeah, I love the idea of a sense of purpose
[57:47.800 -> 57:51.360] I mean, she must have said three or four times in the conversation, you know, she doesn't waste a minute
[57:51.360 -> 57:53.520] Doesn't waste an hour. She doesn't waste a day
[57:54.120 -> 57:58.800] and you know, then we moved on to the conversation about her son Giles and I think that
[57:59.200 -> 58:04.480] In one of the reasons why she has that deep desire to to give back to the autism community
[58:04.720 -> 58:05.240] It's because her life was saved by strangers and by people that she'd never met reasons why she has that deep desire to give back to the autism community is
[58:05.240 -> 58:09.640] because her life was saved by strangers and by people that she'd never met doing
[58:09.640 -> 58:13.200] what they could to improve her circumstances and it's clear that
[58:13.200 -> 58:16.920] there's an element of wanting to do that for other people now you know she will
[58:16.920 -> 58:21.360] have helped tens of thousands of families with autistic family members
[58:21.360 -> 58:29.520] and she's never met them but she's changed their lives. Yeah what an incredible legacy I mean just as an aside from that I recently
[58:29.520 -> 58:35.160] read that in in the Maori culture the translation of their term for
[58:35.160 -> 58:40.640] autism translates as in their own space and time and I think that's such a
[58:40.640 -> 58:45.000] beautiful way of viewing something of neurodiversity in general,
[58:45.000 -> 58:48.240] but autism in relation to what Steve spoke about
[58:48.240 -> 58:51.560] her son Giles, about sometimes we just have to accept
[58:51.560 -> 58:53.800] that people have their own space and their own time
[58:53.800 -> 58:57.420] and it's up to us to create a culture
[58:57.420 -> 58:59.480] where people still feel included.
[58:59.480 -> 59:03.880] And the fact that she set up a charity of allowing people
[59:03.880 -> 59:07.160] that are dealing with those challenges
[59:07.160 -> 59:11.560] to have their own space and time was breathtaking.
[59:11.560 -> 59:13.640] I have a conversation like that and I just,
[59:13.640 -> 59:15.440] it reinforces in me that we're celebrating
[59:15.440 -> 59:16.600] the wrong things in this world.
[59:16.600 -> 59:19.400] You know, we're celebrating short-term success,
[59:19.400 -> 59:21.960] we're celebrating reality TV stars,
[59:21.960 -> 59:23.960] we're celebrating mediocrity too often,
[59:23.960 -> 59:25.400] yet, you know, sitting
[59:25.400 -> 59:31.240] before us is someone who perhaps could walk down many of the streets in Britain
[59:31.240 -> 59:35.000] and not be stopped and thanked for what she's done, but she is someone who has
[59:35.000 -> 59:38.680] changed the lives of people living in this country and around the world today
[59:38.680 -> 59:44.160] and for me that is, sitting and having that hour with her is something that I
[59:44.160 -> 59:46.160] will cherish for a long, long time.
[59:46.160 -> 59:49.280] Yeah, I mean, you use that lovely phrase about
[59:49.280 -> 59:52.200] our daughters, and I think listening to her there
[59:52.200 -> 59:54.940] as a father of a young daughter,
[59:56.060 -> 59:58.040] listening to Stevie's family there to celebrate
[59:58.040 -> 01:00:00.340] that she's changed the world for the better
[01:00:00.340 -> 01:00:02.480] for this generation and the next,
[01:00:02.480 -> 01:00:05.360] and hopefully many others others and that is the
[01:00:05.360 -> 01:00:11.320] ultimate definition of high performance. Absolutely. Thanks mate.
[01:00:12.520 -> 01:00:17.080] Time to welcome another listener to the podcast and Zoe contacted us through
[01:00:17.080 -> 01:00:21.520] email and joins us now on the podcast. Hey Zoe how are you? Hello I'm very good
[01:00:21.520 -> 01:00:26.000] thank you. First of all what an incredible story that you've shared with us.
[01:00:26.000 -> 01:00:30.000] I don't think I would do it justice if I, if I tried to repeat it to our listeners.
[01:00:30.000 -> 01:00:31.000] I think it needs to come from you.
[01:00:31.000 -> 01:00:37.000] Would you mind taking us back to the age of 16 when you had a certain diagnosis
[01:00:37.000 -> 01:00:40.000] and then the other challenges in your life that followed on from that?
[01:00:40.000 -> 01:00:46.320] Yeah. So, so up until the age of 16, I was a very privileged horse fanatic.
[01:00:46.320 -> 01:00:51.120] I absolutely adored it. And I was very lucky to have a really unique relationship with
[01:00:51.120 -> 01:00:56.680] my dad, who was also into horses. And we'd spend all of our time, like training, going
[01:00:56.680 -> 01:01:02.080] to shows and things. I was completely like dead set on horses was going to be a career.
[01:01:02.080 -> 01:01:06.160] However, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease
[01:01:06.160 -> 01:01:11.400] called rheumatoid arthritis, which essentially means that my immune system thought that my
[01:01:11.400 -> 01:01:15.280] joints in my body were a virus and so they were basically attacking them and breaking
[01:01:15.280 -> 01:01:19.960] them down. And unfortunately for me, it was in my feet, which for horse riding was a really
[01:01:19.960 -> 01:01:26.800] bad place to have it. And subsequently, I turned out to be allergic to all of the medication
[01:01:26.800 -> 01:01:32.520] that you would normally take to get it under control. So for most of my GCSEs and A-levels,
[01:01:32.520 -> 01:01:37.240] I was spent in and out of hospital and had both my feet reconstructed. So I had six weeks
[01:01:37.240 -> 01:01:43.720] of no walking and things like that, which basically put an end to any dreams of becoming
[01:01:43.720 -> 01:01:46.800] a professional equestrian, as it were, which
[01:01:46.800 -> 01:01:51.560] was obviously, having spent so long in my life, sort of designing my life around that
[01:01:51.560 -> 01:01:58.280] was quite a big thing to deal with and probably was one of the reasons that I then ended up
[01:01:58.280 -> 01:02:04.720] becoming anorexic, sort of as like a form of control, and spent the next couple of years
[01:02:04.720 -> 01:02:06.240] in and out of sort of dealing with
[01:02:06.240 -> 01:02:12.800] that. However, I am incredibly, incredibly proud and happy to say that I managed to overcome that
[01:02:12.800 -> 01:02:19.120] just in time for my very close father to have a bleed to the brain and collapsed whilst I was
[01:02:19.120 -> 01:02:31.120] at work one day. Again, that was a bit of a non-expected thing. And we also had a 250-acre farm with a full beef suckler herd on it.
[01:02:31.120 -> 01:02:34.800] So my dad collapsed on X day, never regained consciousness.
[01:02:34.800 -> 01:02:36.360] My mom wasn't a farmer either.
[01:02:36.360 -> 01:02:42.080] So I walked out of my job on that day and learned to drive a tractor and feed a load
[01:02:42.080 -> 01:02:45.800] of cows in about three days flat. So that
[01:02:45.800 -> 01:02:52.120] was again a very challenging time. So he survived for about six weeks not conscious. So my mum
[01:02:52.120 -> 01:02:56.220] was about an hour away dealing with him and I took over the running of the farm. We didn't
[01:02:56.220 -> 01:03:01.760] employ anybody because it was just a single little farm for him. However, not having had
[01:03:01.760 -> 01:03:05.060] much of a background in it, it was quite a learning curve.
[01:03:05.060 -> 01:03:06.060] And then we had COVID.
[01:03:06.060 -> 01:03:09.280] So then COVID about three months later hit.
[01:03:09.280 -> 01:03:14.200] And we thankfully had just about made the really hard decision to sell the cows because
[01:03:14.200 -> 01:03:16.080] it just wasn't feasible for me.
[01:03:16.080 -> 01:03:18.880] And it also wasn't really what I'd planned to do with my life.
[01:03:18.880 -> 01:03:22.480] But I'm privileged to say that actually for me, COVID was quite a good experience because
[01:03:22.480 -> 01:03:29.680] it gave mum and I the time to grieve and get over everything and it then allowed the opportunity to learn
[01:03:29.680 -> 01:03:34.080] about the farm and subsequently offered me the opportunity to go to university
[01:03:34.080 -> 01:03:39.480] again. So after all of that I am now at university loving farming but just in a
[01:03:39.480 -> 01:03:46.480] very different way to how I expected. Wow, I mean there's real echoes here as I'm listening to
[01:03:46.480 -> 01:03:51.340] what's an incredible story and thank you for sharing it with the interview we did
[01:03:51.340 -> 01:03:57.200] with Dame Evelyn Glenny where she spoke around how her life was on the pathway
[01:03:57.200 -> 01:04:02.020] of becoming a musician and then she lost her hearing and how she had to adapt and
[01:04:02.020 -> 01:04:05.700] taught herself to be able to play music without
[01:04:05.700 -> 01:04:11.120] having the benefit of being able to hear it in the conventional way and I'm
[01:04:11.120 -> 01:04:17.500] interested in I mean some of those experiences would knock people
[01:04:17.500 -> 01:04:20.780] down that they'd struggle to get back from and you obviously have picked
[01:04:20.780 -> 01:04:25.100] yourself up and carried on. What have you learned that
[01:04:25.100 -> 01:04:31.240] you think could be most valuable for our listeners in responding to hardship and
[01:04:31.240 -> 01:04:36.040] difficult times? I think the biggest thing that I've learned is that actually
[01:04:36.040 -> 01:04:40.880] everything happens for a reason and I know it is incredibly hard to hear that
[01:04:40.880 -> 01:04:48.000] at a time when you are at your lowest. But from all of those experiences,
[01:04:48.000 -> 01:04:54.440] it's caused me to have to change the direction of my life. But actually, from what I've gained
[01:04:54.440 -> 01:05:00.320] post that, there's always been a benefit. I've learned something. And equally, I think
[01:05:00.320 -> 01:05:05.320] it's looking at the perspective of there is always somebody that is probably in a
[01:05:05.320 -> 01:05:08.800] worse off position, like we're talking today a year on from Ukraine and
[01:05:08.800 -> 01:05:14.200] actually at least we are living in a country that is a hell of a lot safer
[01:05:14.200 -> 01:05:17.680] than somewhere else. So I think those are the two things I've learned is that
[01:05:17.680 -> 01:05:22.920] everything happens for a reason and that there will be some small lesson to be
[01:05:22.920 -> 01:05:32.200] taken from whatever happens and that actually we can always find some form of positive privilege in where we are in any situation.
[01:05:32.200 -> 01:05:33.600] I love this conversation.
[01:05:33.600 -> 01:05:39.000] It's really important, isn't it, that we acknowledge the good and the bad that comes our way in our lives.
[01:05:39.000 -> 01:05:45.680] And we realize that as we go forward, it's not like the bad stuff was bad and we have to just deal with it and put it away
[01:05:45.680 -> 01:05:47.540] and the good stuff moved us forwards.
[01:05:47.540 -> 01:05:49.840] The difficult thing that I think we're trying to share
[01:05:49.840 -> 01:05:51.000] with people listening to this podcast
[01:05:51.000 -> 01:05:52.680] and you're doing it so much better than Damian
[01:05:52.680 -> 01:05:54.920] or I ever could because you're living it,
[01:05:54.920 -> 01:05:57.760] is that the bad stuff drives us forwards as well.
[01:05:57.760 -> 01:06:00.040] And I think it's an important message for people to hear
[01:06:00.040 -> 01:06:02.960] because when it comes and you get derailed,
[01:06:02.960 -> 01:06:04.480] people often believe, you know, as we've said,
[01:06:04.480 -> 01:06:08.320] people believe it's a full stop and it's certainly a comma and I'm so sorry for your loss and
[01:06:08.320 -> 01:06:12.560] I'm sure it hurts every day, but it was a comma for you, not a full stop, wasn't it?
[01:06:12.560 -> 01:06:17.240] Yeah. And like you said, the bad days make you appreciate the good days. That's what
[01:06:17.240 -> 01:06:22.200] I've worked out is that I am now able to look back and go, ah, few years ago, I couldn't
[01:06:22.200 -> 01:06:25.840] enjoy a croissant, but today I can. And it's those tiny, like
[01:06:25.840 -> 01:06:30.960] silly things. And mum and I, we jokingly sort of curse him and go, Oh, so unhelpful of him
[01:06:30.960 -> 01:06:36.520] to do that. But actually being able to joke about it makes you appreciate that actually
[01:06:36.520 -> 01:06:38.680] there is a lot of good that can come out of every day.
[01:06:38.680 -> 01:06:41.400] Thank you so much for coming on and sharing that with us.
[01:06:41.400 -> 01:06:42.400] Thank you.
[01:06:42.400 -> 01:06:45.000] Bye.
[01:06:45.000 -> 01:06:50.800] Well, as always, I hope that you got so much from that conversation. And I think in many
[01:06:50.800 -> 01:06:55.760] ways, so much has changed in the world yet so little has changed, hasn't it? And I think
[01:06:55.760 -> 01:07:01.480] the one way that you can change things is by just sharing this podcast. Let's just get
[01:07:01.480 -> 01:07:08.120] this message out there. Let's get this story out there. Let's get this conversation out there. I want my daughter to hear what this lady did.
[01:07:08.120 -> 01:07:11.960] She changed the game for women today.
[01:07:11.960 -> 01:07:14.760] She broke down doors for others to walk through.
[01:07:14.760 -> 01:07:18.200] She is the epitome of high performance.
[01:07:18.200 -> 01:07:19.800] Thank you for listening.
[01:07:19.800 -> 01:07:35.520] See you next time.
[01:07:37.560 -> 01:07:39.620] you