Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:06:05 GMT
Duration:
1:04:49
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Matthew Syed is an author and highly acclaimed speaker, he has written six bestselling books focusing on mindset and high performance, including children's books. In his varied career, Matthew was England’s number one table tennis player for over a decade, and he has competed in the Olympics for Team GB twice. In this episode, Matthew shares his insight into education, parenthood and leadership.
They discuss why it’s so important to bring the growth mindset into education, to teach our children that it’s about how you can develop your skills and talents, not just celebrating the end goal. Matthew shares what he praises his children for and why we should be showing them examples of authentic success, with struggles and set-backs.
They also explore taking risks, creating a space for vulnerability in the workplace and how to find purpose in our lives.
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Sure, here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript:
**Introduction**
* Matthew Syed is a highly acclaimed author and speaker who has written six bestselling books focusing on mindset and high performance.
* He was also a professional table tennis player and competed in the Olympics for Team GB twice.
* In this episode, Matthew shares his insights on education, parenting, and leadership.
**Key Points**
* **The Importance of a Growth Mindset:**
* Matthew emphasizes the importance of bringing the growth mindset into education.
* He explains that a growth mindset is about teaching children that they can develop their skills and talents through effort and perseverance, rather than just celebrating the end goal.
* He suggests praising children for their effort and hard work, rather than just their talent.
* **Taking Risks and Creating a Space for Vulnerability:**
* Matthew discusses the importance of taking risks and creating a space for vulnerability in the workplace.
* He believes that it is important to encourage people to try new things and learn from their mistakes.
* He also emphasizes the importance of creating a safe space where people feel comfortable sharing their ideas and taking risks.
* **Finding Purpose in Life:**
* Matthew explores the concept of finding purpose in life.
* He believes that purpose is about finding something that you are passionate about and that makes you feel fulfilled.
* He suggests that people can find purpose through their work, their relationships, or their hobbies.
**Controversies and Insights**
* Matthew discusses the controversy surrounding the self-esteem movement in education.
* He argues that the self-esteem movement has led to a generation of children who are afraid to take risks and who are easily discouraged by setbacks.
* He also shares his insights on the importance of hard work and perseverance.
* He believes that hard work is essential for success and that people should not be afraid to put in the effort to achieve their goals.
**Overall Message**
* The overall message of the podcast episode is that high performance is about more than just talent and natural ability.
* It is also about having a growth mindset, taking risks, and finding purpose in life.
* Matthew Syed provides valuable insights and advice for parents, educators, and leaders who want to help young people reach their full potential.
**Additional Information**
* The podcast episode also includes a discussion of the following topics:
* The importance of resilience
* The role of failure in learning
* The challenges facing the UK education system
* The future of work
* The podcast episode is available on a variety of platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Google Podcasts.
**Conclusion**
Matthew Syed's conversation with Professor Damien Hughes and Ryan Reynolds is a fascinating and informative discussion about high performance. Matthew shares his insights on a wide range of topics, from education to parenting to leadership. He provides valuable advice for anyone who wants to help young people reach their full potential.
# Podcast Episode Summary: "The High Performance Podcast with Jake Humphrey":
## Episode Title: "Matthew Syed: Mindset, Failure, and Cognitive Diversity"
## Key Points:
- **Growth Mindset:** Matthew Syed emphasizes the importance of fostering a growth mindset in education, where children are taught that they can develop their skills and talents through effort and perseverance, rather than solely celebrating the end goal.
- **Authentic Success:** Syed advocates for showcasing authentic examples of success, including struggles and setbacks, to help children understand the process of achieving success and build resilience.
- **Risk-Taking and Vulnerability:** He encourages risk-taking and creating a space for vulnerability in the workplace, allowing for open discussions and learning from mistakes.
- **Purpose and Fulfillment:** Syed highlights the significance of finding purpose in life and connecting hard work with a meaningful cause to achieve true fulfillment.
- **Black Box Thinking:** Syed draws a comparison between the aviation industry's black box, which allows for error analysis and improvement, and the need for similar learning cultures in healthcare and other fields.
- **Cognitive Diversity:** Syed emphasizes the importance of cognitive diversity in teams, bringing together individuals with different perspectives and insights to solve complex problems and enhance performance.
- **Blind Spots:** He stresses the need to address blind spots and biases by embracing cognitive diversity, as individuals from similar backgrounds may overlook crucial aspects of a challenge.
- **Challenging Bias without Defensiveness:** Syed suggests using humor and self-deprecating jokes to challenge biases without making people feel defensive, creating a more open and inclusive environment for learning and growth.
## Overall Message:
The episode emphasizes the importance of fostering a growth mindset, embracing cognitive diversity, and creating a culture of learning from mistakes to achieve high performance and fulfillment in various aspects of life.
# High Performance Podcast Episode 167: Matthew Syed – Mindset, Education, and Leadership
**Summary**
This podcast episode features Matthew Syed, an author and highly acclaimed speaker, who shares his insights on education, parenthood, and leadership. Syed emphasizes the importance of bringing the growth mindset into education, teaching children that it's about developing skills and talents rather than just celebrating the end goal. He also discusses taking risks, creating a space for vulnerability in the workplace, and finding purpose in life.
**Key Points**
* **Growth Mindset in Education:** Syed advocates for bringing the growth mindset into education, which involves teaching children that intelligence and abilities can be developed through effort and hard work, rather than being fixed traits. This approach helps students to persevere in the face of challenges and to view setbacks as opportunities for growth.
* **Praising Children:** Syed suggests praising children for their effort and progress rather than just their achievements. This helps to foster a growth mindset and encourages children to focus on the process rather than the outcome.
* **Authentic Success:** Syed emphasizes the importance of showing children examples of authentic success, with struggles and setbacks. This helps them to understand that success is not always easy and that it's okay to make mistakes.
* **Taking Risks:** Syed encourages people to take risks and step outside of their comfort zones. He believes that this is essential for personal and professional growth and that it can lead to new opportunities and experiences.
* **Creating a Space for Vulnerability:** Syed argues for creating a space for vulnerability in the workplace, where people feel comfortable sharing their thoughts and ideas without fear of judgment. He believes that this can lead to more creative and innovative thinking.
* **Finding Purpose:** Syed emphasizes the importance of finding purpose in life. He believes that this can help people to stay motivated and engaged, and to live more fulfilling lives.
* **Be a Learner:** Syed encourages people to always be learning and growing. He believes that the world is constantly changing and that it's important to stay up-to-date on new developments.
* **Kindness to oneself:** Syed reminds listeners that it's important to be kind to themselves and to recognize that everyone makes mistakes. He emphasizes the importance of self-compassion and self-acceptance.
**Overall Message**
The overall message of this podcast episode is that a growth mindset, a willingness to take risks, and a focus on purpose and learning are essential for personal and professional success. Syed also emphasizes the importance of creating a space for vulnerability and being kind to oneself.
[00:00.000 -> 00:04.600] Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance.
[00:04.600 -> 00:07.360] I just want to start with a couple of big thank yous.
[00:07.360 -> 00:13.160] First of all, thank you for making January 2023 the biggest month in the history of this
[00:13.160 -> 00:18.200] podcast for downloads, for views, for interactions, for follows.
[00:18.200 -> 00:22.560] This is a truly global thing going on here and every country in the world bar a couple
[00:22.560 -> 00:25.360] that are kind of pretty obvious are listening to this podcast.
[00:25.360 -> 00:27.440] So wherever you are in the world listening to this right now
[00:27.440 -> 00:30.760] thank you so much for listening and spreading the word
[00:30.760 -> 00:31.720] about high performance.
[00:31.720 -> 00:33.160] It means the world to us.
[00:33.160 -> 00:35.560] The second big thank you is for the people that came along
[00:35.560 -> 00:37.880] to the start of our live UK tour.
[00:37.880 -> 00:39.760] The first night was in Norwich, my hometown.
[00:39.760 -> 00:41.360] The reaction was amazing.
[00:41.360 -> 00:44.400] Look forward to seeing more of you around the UK.
[00:44.400 -> 00:45.100] And our next night
[00:45.100 -> 00:48.160] is at the London Palladium. But a big thanks for coming along and supporting
[00:48.160 -> 00:52.800] two very nervous people as we walked out on stage. Right, let's get to it then.
[00:52.800 -> 00:59.180] This podcast, as always, reminds you that it's within. Your ambition, your purpose,
[00:59.180 -> 01:04.000] your story, your happiness are all there. We just help unlock it by turning the
[01:04.000 -> 01:05.200] lived experiences
[01:05.200 -> 01:10.400] of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. So right now, allow myself and
[01:10.400 -> 01:16.040] Professor Damien Hughes to speak to one of the most impressive minds to join us on this
[01:16.040 -> 01:22.440] show. Let this man be your teacher. This is what awaits you today.
[01:22.440 -> 01:25.000] I ghosted David Beckham's autobiography.
[01:25.000 -> 01:28.000] He said, well, it was a mistake, the challenge on Simeone.
[01:28.000 -> 01:31.000] Okay, he overreacted, but I was petulant.
[01:31.000 -> 01:32.000] What a learning opportunity.
[01:32.000 -> 01:34.000] I never made that mistake again.
[01:34.000 -> 01:36.000] Isn't that how you grow?
[01:36.000 -> 01:42.000] We need to kind of redefine failure as an opportunity rather than always as a threat.
[01:42.000 -> 01:49.080] We started to worship effortless performance. If you give them a sense authentically of how success happens not in these
[01:49.560 -> 01:51.400] formats on reality television
[01:51.400 -> 01:59.020] But how James Dyson created the dual cyclone vacuum cleaner how Serena Williams became a great tennis player and you go through the actual
[01:59.280 -> 02:02.720] Processes that were necessary to get to that level of virtuosity
[02:02.960 -> 02:05.320] They begin to understand
[02:05.320 -> 02:07.560] that this is an absolutely necessary part
[02:07.560 -> 02:09.320] of how you fulfill your potential.
[02:10.320 -> 02:11.840] We're living through an energy crisis
[02:11.840 -> 02:13.760] that is gonna be incredibly difficult
[02:13.760 -> 02:15.680] for our species to resolve.
[02:15.680 -> 02:18.560] My own sense is the next 80 years of this century
[02:18.560 -> 02:21.160] are the most important in our history as a species.
[02:21.160 -> 02:24.000] I think it is absolutely crucial
[02:24.000 -> 02:26.180] that we get our act together. And
[02:26.180 -> 02:31.600] in a more geo-strategic sense, you know, I do think that the West has got a genuine competitor
[02:31.600 -> 02:37.240] in, you know, in autocracy in China. And I think that's the challenge too. It's going
[02:37.240 -> 02:40.680] to be an interesting period for us.
[02:40.680 -> 02:46.960] So welcome Matthew Syed to the High Performance Podcast. I've known Matthew for quite a long time,
[02:46.960 -> 02:50.560] and he is genuinely one of the most impressive thinkers
[02:50.560 -> 02:53.320] and impressive people I've come across in my career.
[02:53.320 -> 02:55.680] I'm sure you know that he had an amazing sporting career
[02:55.680 -> 02:56.800] when he was younger.
[02:56.800 -> 02:59.160] He represented Great Britain in the men's singles
[02:59.160 -> 03:01.720] at the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona.
[03:01.720 -> 03:04.220] He was the England number one tennis player
[03:04.220 -> 03:05.840] for the best part of a decade.
[03:05.840 -> 03:07.720] He reached the world ranking of 25.
[03:07.720 -> 03:09.920] But the really fascinating thing that I love
[03:09.920 -> 03:12.640] is how he took what he learned in table tennis
[03:12.640 -> 03:15.480] and looked at it in a completely different way.
[03:15.480 -> 03:18.120] It led to him writing his brilliant book,
[03:18.120 -> 03:20.960] Bounce, which you really have to read.
[03:20.960 -> 03:22.440] He then wrote Black Box Thinking,
[03:22.440 -> 03:28.120] which is one of those go-to books for loads of people. He created a book called You Are Awesome, which both of my kids have read for young
[03:28.120 -> 03:32.960] people. Rebel Ideas, The Power of Diverse Thinking. The teams that I've built in the
[03:32.960 -> 03:38.840] businesses that I've created, I've used that book. And cognitive diversity has been absolutely
[03:38.840 -> 03:43.400] vital. He's also got a book called Dare to Be You, Defying Self-Doubt. I think there's
[03:43.400 -> 03:45.520] so much that we can learn from Matthew.
[03:45.520 -> 03:48.400] I really know that you're going to get an awful lot from this conversation.
[03:48.400 -> 03:49.560] So let's do it then.
[03:49.560 -> 03:53.320] Time to get you closer to your own version of high performance.
[03:53.320 -> 03:55.680] There's a lot of takeaways in this conversation.
[03:55.680 -> 04:01.000] Matthew Syed joins myself and Professor Damien on the High Performance Podcast.
[04:25.280 -> 04:28.200] Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Performance Podcast. Are you talking about you insane Hollywood a**hole? So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month.
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[06:15.680 -> 06:19.920] Today's high performance podcast comes to you in association with our founding partners,
[06:19.920 -> 06:24.720] Lotus. For those of you who are new to this podcast, well, Lotus were the first company
[06:24.720 -> 06:25.800] to take a gamble on us,
[06:25.800 -> 06:29.400] the first people to support us and allow this podcast to be
[06:29.400 -> 06:30.700] created quite simply.
[06:31.000 -> 06:34.400] If it wasn't for Lotus, there would be no high-performance
[06:34.400 -> 06:37.300] podcast and we're so proud that they stand alongside us today
[06:37.400 -> 06:41.400] and 2023 is proving to be their most exciting year yet.
[06:41.400 -> 06:48.220] You can still trace the DNA of their current cars right back to their founder Colin Chapman. So this year the Emira has hit
[06:48.220 -> 06:51.780] the roads here in the UK and just as Colin would have wanted it is a
[06:51.780 -> 06:57.540] beautiful lightweight sports car and the handling is just incredible. This is a
[06:57.540 -> 07:01.780] company setting themselves up for the future. They've got the Electra SUV,
[07:01.780 -> 07:06.040] their all-electric car, the Avaya Hypercar and the Emera as well.
[07:06.040 -> 07:11.520] A trilogy of cars from an iconic British manufacturer and as well as that, it's the end of an era.
[07:11.520 -> 07:16.840] The Emera will be their last combustion powered vehicle. I think it's an incredible time for
[07:16.840 -> 07:27.680] Lotus. I'd love you to visit lotuscars.com to find out more. So welcome to high performance well, thanks for having me
[07:27.680 -> 07:33.480] I get emails and calls saying have you heard the latest high-performance podcast and
[07:34.240 -> 07:36.240] Congratulations on what you've done. It's a fantastic
[07:36.760 -> 07:39.480] Podcast that I love you spent your life either
[07:40.240 -> 07:45.360] Studying high performance celebrating high performance trying to understand high performance or being high performance yourself
[07:45.360 -> 07:49.500] So when I ask you what does high performance mean to you?
[07:50.080 -> 07:54.340] Where do you go? That's an interesting question. So I've definitely had a slightly odd
[07:54.880 -> 08:00.240] Life and eclectic life a long time ago as the British table tennis number one as you know
[08:01.000 -> 08:10.280] Three times Commonwealth champion when I mentioned this to people today, they kind of think, what? You did ping pong for a living? But I think when you're involved
[08:10.280 -> 08:15.520] in sport at the professional level, even what's rather pejoratively called a minority sport,
[08:15.520 -> 08:21.400] you're very interested in trying to maximize your own potential. And now as a sports journalist,
[08:21.400 -> 08:25.880] I'm very interested in getting to know people at the top of their game not just in sport
[08:25.880 -> 08:27.880] but scientists inventors
[08:28.880 -> 08:34.080] Innovators business leaders. I've enjoyed your the business strand on this and for me, you know
[08:34.080 -> 08:38.440] It's really about being the best that you can be fulfilling your own potential
[08:38.760 -> 08:42.800] you know reaching the summit of your own capabilities and
[08:43.520 -> 08:45.880] For me in my life. I've sought to do that. I don't
[08:45.880 -> 08:50.200] think I've always achieved it. But that's, I think, a very empowering thing for people.
[08:50.200 -> 08:54.680] We don't necessarily have the same potential. You know, talent is a factor which we don't
[08:54.680 -> 08:59.280] really have control over. We don't control our genetic inheritance in that sense. But
[08:59.280 -> 09:05.320] we have tremendous control and agency on how we shape the trajectory of our lives and you know
[09:05.320 -> 09:09.840] it's been a really interesting thing to write and think about over the years.
[09:09.840 -> 09:13.880] So all three of us having this conversation today have got school-aged children so
[09:13.880 -> 09:18.800] all three of us sit and help our children. Go on, how old are yours? Mine are nine and
[09:18.800 -> 09:23.720] seven. So eight and ten. So very similar, yours are just a touch older, your boys?
[09:23.720 -> 09:25.520] Yeah nine and thirteen
[09:25.600 -> 09:29.880] But all of us sit with them while they do their homework and all of us
[09:29.880 -> 09:33.520] I'm sure I speak for us all when I say we've listened or watch and thought
[09:34.200 -> 09:38.000] Now, why are you learning that? What is that gonna do for you in the outside world?
[09:38.000 -> 09:43.200] So with this conversation you make this, you know, it's funny. I was at the parents evening yesterday
[09:43.200 -> 09:48.460] Yeah, and brilliant school, by the way, fantastic school my daughter Evie. She's making you say that
[09:50.420 -> 09:54.720] So she was saying Evie my daughter the ten-year-old who Evie hello there, I hope you got to listen
[09:55.880 -> 09:58.520] So one of the things she struggles with is using a protractor
[10:00.040 -> 10:03.360] Okay, and the compass and I was sitting there thinking
[10:06.680 -> 10:11.120] And the compass. And I was sitting there thinking, when do you ever use a protractor or a compass in the outside world? But I kind of voiced it in a tangential way. And the teacher, I
[10:11.120 -> 10:17.000] think, rightly responded that it kind of helps your fine motor skills if you go into a craft
[10:17.000 -> 10:20.080] later on where you have to use your hands. So you're right, I definitely feel that, Jake,
[10:20.080 -> 10:25.280] a lot. Why are they learning this? But I think that it's a cumulative process education.
[10:25.280 -> 10:29.940] And sometimes the building blocks that go into your ability to host a podcast and to
[10:29.940 -> 10:35.760] manage a business and for you as an academic, we sometimes forget the deeper building blocks
[10:35.760 -> 10:40.940] and the conceptual structure that we benefit from. That's how I justify it to myself when
[10:40.940 -> 10:47.100] I'm trying to get my daughter to do Pythagoras. Not that she's anywhere near Pythagoras yet. Toby Curran A lot of this gets discussed when it comes
[10:47.100 -> 10:54.860] to schooling. But are we creating resilient young people with all of the actual skills
[10:54.860 -> 10:56.660] that are going to be tested in the world?
[10:56.660 -> 11:00.340] Richard Pinchot So I think that there is a profound error,
[11:00.340 -> 11:11.140] an understandable error in the 70s and 80ies called the self esteem movement it emerged on the west coast of the united states and it filtered around particularly the western world
[11:11.100 -> 11:14.360] the idea simplifying a little was that.
[11:14.620 -> 11:25.540] We need to protect children from failures give them easy success experiences give them a low bar so they get used to succeeding, and that way they'll have
[11:25.540 -> 11:27.600] plenty of self-esteem.
[11:27.600 -> 11:32.060] We praise them for their talent, and they'll go off and change the world.
[11:32.060 -> 11:35.580] You can see how that's a well-intended educational philosophy.
[11:35.580 -> 11:40.420] The problem with it is what happens when you give children a challenge they can learn from?
[11:40.420 -> 11:44.220] In other words, a challenge at which they will potentially fail.
[11:44.220 -> 11:48.880] If they've been used to succeeding the whole time and their self-esteem is bound up with
[11:48.880 -> 11:52.540] a sense of perfection, that is going to be devastating.
[11:52.540 -> 11:56.520] We also know empirically that they won't take risks from which they can learn in case
[11:56.520 -> 11:57.520] they mess up.
[11:57.520 -> 12:01.780] In other words, the self-esteem movement undermined what I think is one of the key qualities we
[12:01.780 -> 12:08.680] want to imbue in young children, which is resilience. The capacity to face up to the challenges and the setbacks that are a part
[12:08.680 -> 12:12.920] of life and learning. Because if people are resilient, they're willing to take risks.
[12:12.920 -> 12:18.440] They have higher agency. They're more likely to be entrepreneurial. And that's why I think,
[12:18.440 -> 12:22.480] you know, Damian, you begin to build all of those characteristics that are so important
[12:22.480 -> 12:27.440] when you transcend from an educational world where you're often answering closed questions,
[12:27.440 -> 12:31.520] deploying canned knowledge like regurgitating chemical formulae,
[12:31.520 -> 12:34.560] whereas in the real world you have to perform experiments,
[12:34.560 -> 12:37.760] you have to take risks, you have to work with people.
[12:37.760 -> 12:40.160] So even though I think a lot of schools like my daughter's
[12:40.160 -> 12:42.040] are moving in the right direction,
[12:42.040 -> 12:49.420] I still think that there is a lot further we need to go to really equip children for a world today which is changing faster than
[12:49.420 -> 12:54.600] ever before. A world where the canned knowledge we received at school, whilst important, is
[12:54.600 -> 12:59.800] being superseded faster than ever before. So I'd like to see a shift in the way we think
[12:59.800 -> 13:03.840] about education in this country and I think it will help Britain, if I can put it that
[13:03.840 -> 13:06.280] way, the UK, to deal better in the future which I think it will help Britain, if I can put it that
[13:03.840 -> 13:08.160] way, the UK to deal better in a future which
[13:06.280 -> 13:10.320] I think is quite a murky and going to
[13:08.160 -> 13:12.640] be a very difficult one for us. Toby- So would
[13:10.320 -> 13:15.040] you tell us how we go about doing that?
[13:12.640 -> 13:17.280] And I'll tell you why I want to ask this
[13:15.040 -> 13:19.120] Matthew, that your brilliant book of You
[13:17.280 -> 13:21.360] Are Awesome that was aimed at kids, I
[13:19.120 -> 13:23.280] thought was really an important book
[13:21.360 -> 13:25.440] that was out there because I think it
[13:23.280 -> 13:26.440] did move the
[13:24.140 -> 13:27.980] conversation further into a question
[13:26.440 -> 13:30.380] that Jake and I like asking a lot of our
[13:27.980 -> 13:32.660] interviewers, which is not how clever are
[13:30.380 -> 13:34.620] you but how are you clever, what makes
[13:32.660 -> 13:37.640] you special, what is your talent that you
[13:34.620 -> 13:39.940] bring and I think your book started to
[13:37.640 -> 13:42.080] unpick how schools can do this and I'm
[13:39.940 -> 13:44.660] interested if you tell us more around
[13:42.080 -> 13:46.580] that. Oh thanks Damien, yeah so what I
[13:44.660 -> 13:45.680] really wanted to do is,
[13:45.680 -> 13:48.680] is one concept I think is really important in education
[13:48.680 -> 13:50.280] and frankly beyond,
[13:50.280 -> 13:52.280] is the growth mindset.
[13:52.280 -> 13:54.480] You know, effectively without wanting to
[13:54.480 -> 13:57.280] bore you with too much of the detail, you can give
[13:57.280 -> 13:59.680] kind of questionnaire or diagnostic to people
[13:59.680 -> 14:01.880] to see the way they think about improvement
[14:01.880 -> 14:09.560] and getting better at stuff and high performance if you like, people in a fixed mindset tend to conceptualize this through the prism of
[14:09.560 -> 14:15.600] talent. Do I have the innate gift, the predisposition? In sport we used to sometimes talk about having
[14:15.600 -> 14:20.240] the right kind of genetic inheritance in order to excel. In a growth mindset people say yes,
[14:20.240 -> 14:29.760] talents affect that obviously but it isn't enough, It's what I do with my talents. And I think educators, parents to an extent, who can get their young people, children into
[14:29.760 -> 14:37.160] a growth mindset, confer a huge asset so that they feel that they have some control over
[14:37.160 -> 14:41.520] their own development. And once you feel you have some control over your own development,
[14:41.520 -> 14:49.600] there are always ladders out there for us to improve. But the willingness, the motivation to climb the ladder is presupposed by the prior belief in one's
[14:49.600 -> 14:56.360] capacity to climb it. So when I was trying to kind of reinvent myself after the career
[14:56.360 -> 15:01.040] in table tennis, I wrote a book called Bounce. And I wasn't expecting many people to read
[15:01.040 -> 15:07.280] it. A few people did. I got invited to give a talk to Goldman Sachs. And I was expecting many people to read it, a few people did. I got invited to give a talk to Goldman Sachs and I was suffering with terrible imposter
[15:07.280 -> 15:08.280] syndrome.
[15:08.280 -> 15:11.640] You know, why me, ex-table tennis player, speaking to these investment bankers.
[15:11.640 -> 15:16.280] And I went to a state school, hadn't done much public speaking practice.
[15:16.280 -> 15:20.520] You know, the press conferences in ping pong were not that well attended.
[15:20.520 -> 15:26.380] So I hadn't had the kind of the mentoring and the domain experience to be a good public speaker
[15:26.380 -> 15:31.800] So I bombed a little bit. I got heckled a couple of times and I left here's a fixed mindset response
[15:32.200 -> 15:37.200] Because I failed I'm obviously not very good at speaking if I'm invited again, I will politely decline
[15:37.560 -> 15:43.120] Can you see how a fixed mindset creates self-limiting beliefs? I thought no, let's have a growth mindset response
[15:43.440 -> 15:47.760] Maybe I can improve at this and I googled public speaking practice
[15:48.160 -> 15:52.600] Found a local club called toastmasters near to where I lived and still live in Richmond
[15:52.600 -> 15:56.340] I went every second week for three years you give a talk you get feedback
[15:56.340 -> 16:01.120] I thought you give feedback to other people giving just a group of people like me trying to build their social confidence
[16:01.200 -> 16:08.300] And I'm not the best public speaker in the world now as people listening to the podcast right now can verify, but my goodness, our capacity
[16:08.300 -> 16:14.120] to improve when we're equipped with this sense of our capacity to improve, that is why I
[16:14.120 -> 16:17.280] think the growth mindset is so important. And that was, Damian, what I was really trying
[16:17.280 -> 16:19.280] to get across in your orals.
[16:19.280 -> 16:21.720] Damian The question is how we do that then, because
[16:21.720 -> 16:28.840] that's a great story, but you were already an elite operator who had the mental dexterity to get to the top of the table
[16:28.840 -> 16:33.120] excuse the pun in table tennis so it's kind of understandable that you would
[16:33.120 -> 16:37.200] go ah right let me solve the problem here for us with our seven eight nine
[16:37.200 -> 16:42.240] ten year olds I don't think they have yet all the vitamins and minerals to to
[16:42.240 -> 16:46.640] work this out for themselves so as parents or as teachers or as carers
[16:47.140 -> 16:49.140] What should we be taking away from this conversation?
[16:50.820 -> 16:52.820] So in practical terms
[16:52.860 -> 16:58.280] It's quite easy when somebody does a great drawing say, oh my goodness
[16:58.620 -> 17:03.500] You're so talented you're the next Picasso and that definitely builds their self-esteem
[17:04.180 -> 17:10.100] The risk of course is as soon as they draw anything that isn't Picasso-esque, the walls
[17:10.100 -> 17:12.520] of their world can come crumbling down.
[17:12.520 -> 17:18.040] So praising for talent can inadvertently push young people towards the fixed mindset.
[17:18.040 -> 17:22.560] If on the other hand you said, well done, you worked really hard, what's the young person
[17:22.560 -> 17:23.560] thinking?
[17:23.560 -> 17:27.000] If I want to do a better drawing, I need to work harder or work smarter.
[17:27.000 -> 17:31.400] Or if you praise the process, I love the way the colors fit together on the page, they
[17:31.400 -> 17:35.440] can think, oh, if I want to do a better painting, I have to make the colors fit together in
[17:35.440 -> 17:39.280] a more authentic and realistic or whatever it happens to be way.
[17:39.280 -> 17:44.180] In other words, the praise terms are effectively aligning the young mind on the journey they
[17:44.180 -> 17:46.400] have to go on to unlock their potential
[17:46.400 -> 17:53.800] rather than inadvertently insinuating they have a fixed gift that will be called into question the first time that they mess up.
[17:53.800 -> 18:01.500] The other thing that I think is really important and I'll never forget this, my father who passed away last year, great man,
[18:01.500 -> 18:09.420] grew up in the Indian Raj, moved to Pakistan after partition, came to England to study law in the 1960s. By the way, he came across
[18:09.420 -> 18:15.020] as a Muslim, Shia Muslim, had a vision in his bed sit as a student, converted
[18:15.020 -> 18:20.220] from Shia Islam to evangelical Christianity, right, this is really unusual.
[18:20.220 -> 18:26.640] In the 1960s? In the 1960s, so his family were completely horrified at the beginning they eventually accepted it
[18:26.640 -> 18:28.640] So then he meets my mom at church
[18:28.640 -> 18:33.880] And she's a kind of redhead white girl and both families were against it. You can't get married
[18:33.880 -> 18:38.480] You're gonna have mixed-race children for crying out loud and luckily for me and my siblings
[18:38.480 -> 18:43.600] I rejected this advice and the children and were married until he passed away last year
[18:43.760 -> 18:45.960] So he's just an amazing guy my father
[18:47.020 -> 18:52.080] and I miss a lot but I was in a in a play at school primary school and
[18:53.680 -> 18:59.160] It was Joseph and his amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat brilliant musical and
[19:00.240 -> 19:05.840] You know, I took a part speaking part as a young kid and and I messed up my lines
[19:05.840 -> 19:11.180] I thought is dad gonna be disappointed. He said, you know what? I'm so proud of you
[19:11.760 -> 19:15.760] Making mistakes is how we learn not to have put yourself forward
[19:15.760 -> 19:22.040] You've never have had that learning experience and that's the other thing. I think it's really important with young people take the stigma out
[19:22.440 -> 19:25.840] Of failure because I think if I can put it
[19:25.840 -> 19:30.320] this way in the social media today people often try and look perfect
[19:30.320 -> 19:35.000] airbrush photographs and young people can look at these perfect lives and
[19:35.000 -> 19:39.200] assume that life is about acting and looking perfect speak to anyone as you
[19:39.200 -> 19:43.480] have done many times who has succeeded there is a litany of failure and it's a
[19:43.480 -> 19:46.360] failure so active stepping stones for how we get good at what we wish to do who has succeeded, there is a litany of failure. It's a failure that acts as
[19:44.640 -> 19:48.440] stepping stones for how we get good at
[19:46.360 -> 19:49.520] what we wish to do. So I think taking
[19:48.440 -> 19:51.280] the stigma out of failure is another
[19:49.520 -> 19:53.320] really important thing that parents can
[19:51.280 -> 19:55.960] do with their kids. Now I know you worked
[19:53.320 -> 19:57.840] on an advisory committee for the FA for
[19:55.960 -> 20:00.320] a while because as you say in this,
[19:57.840 -> 20:02.440] there's echoes of a previous interview
[20:00.320 -> 20:04.720] we did with Nick Cox, who's the head of
[20:02.440 -> 20:06.560] Manchester United's Academy and we
[20:04.720 -> 20:27.120] spoke to him around this and he was talking about trying to remove the y cyfarfod y gwnes i gyd gyda Nick Cox, sy'n arweinydd y Manchester Uniteds Academy, ac rydyn ni'n siarad gyda ni ar hyn o ran hyn, ac roedd e'n siarad am eisiau gwneud y stigma o ddifrifol a'i rhoi plant yn seilio'n ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi-ddi- an angle for this because I know the work that you did with the FA about how
[20:23.840 -> 20:28.680] do we get this into our sporting
[20:27.120 -> 20:30.920] cultures as well because obviously you
[20:28.680 -> 20:32.800] came through table tennis where in your
[20:30.920 -> 20:34.000] book Bounce you speak around the
[20:32.800 -> 20:36.840] table tennis club at the end of the road
[20:34.000 -> 20:39.880] and the way that you were nurtured and
[20:36.840 -> 20:41.400] hothoused. I'm interested in how you
[20:39.880 -> 20:43.120] can take those experiences, your
[20:41.400 -> 20:45.760] learnings and apply them to different
[20:43.120 -> 20:49.400] sports as well. Yeah, I mean in a funny kind of a way learning from failures built into sport
[20:49.400 -> 20:53.320] because if you think about you know football if you're doing keep me ups and
[20:53.320 -> 20:56.560] you kick the ball and it doesn't go where you wanted it to go you adjust
[20:56.560 -> 21:00.840] your technique in the light of what you learned in that sense practice in sport
[21:00.840 -> 21:04.880] conceptually is a kind of trial and error learning and I think you know
[21:04.880 -> 21:09.120] something like football for me the key thing is to try and integrate
[21:09.120 -> 21:14.320] the different components of skill like perceptual awareness, fine motor skill and so on.
[21:14.320 -> 21:18.320] So that young people are not just doing keep me ups but they're also seeing where their
[21:18.320 -> 21:22.560] teammates are, where their opponents are, their integ- it's really an act, many of
[21:22.560 -> 21:26.540] these sports, an act of deep synthesis and therefore
[21:26.540 -> 21:31.280] the way you want young people to practice is to get regular feedback on the array of
[21:31.280 -> 21:35.900] different attributes that are important for driving skill acquisition.
[21:35.900 -> 21:39.320] But I think the tenor of your question is how do we take a step back when one has lost
[21:39.320 -> 21:47.000] a match right and you know in those circumstances in sport I ghosted David Beckham's autobiography
[21:47.000 -> 21:52.080] It's the only book I will ever ghost by the way, so journalists for the listeners out there
[21:52.080 -> 21:54.080] You're only one
[21:54.640 -> 21:56.640] Goodness knows why he chose me but
[21:57.240 -> 21:58.880] Famous people don't typically write their book
[21:58.880 -> 22:01.320] They get a journalist to come in and try and find the right form of words
[22:01.320 -> 22:04.880] So I spent a lot of time with him in his final season at Paris Saint-Germain
[22:03.440 -> 22:04.160] try and find the right form of work. So I spent a lot of time with him in his final season at
[22:09.680 -> 22:11.040] Paris Saint-Germain. So it's his final season as a footballer. And he had one incredible setback.
[22:18.000 -> 22:18.800] Do you remember? As a player, 98 World Cup, got sent off for a challenge on Diego Simeone.
[22:23.120 -> 22:27.020] England went on to lose the match and Beckham, and this was awful in the press and I have to acknowledge that as a journalist became the scapegoat public enemy number one
[22:27.300 -> 22:30.340] He got booed every time he touched the ball the following season
[22:30.660 -> 22:34.120] He had to get escorted into some of the away grounds under armed guard
[22:34.120 -> 22:40.820] And yet what I forgot until I ghosted his book is in that following season 98 99 Beckham and United did something
[22:41.520 -> 22:43.520] unprecedented which is
[22:42.920 -> 22:43.920] did something unprecedented which is yes right
[22:43.920 -> 22:47.480] I got the United Press office to send me all the DVDs
[22:47.480 -> 22:48.480] Beckham was unbelievable
[22:48.480 -> 22:50.480] I hadn't linked the two as being that close together
[22:50.480 -> 22:52.280] although I knew the dates it's like
[22:52.280 -> 22:53.280] yep
[22:53.280 -> 22:54.280] how's he gone and done that
[22:54.280 -> 22:55.280] Jay you've got to tell it's incredible
[22:55.280 -> 22:56.280] yeah
[22:56.280 -> 23:00.600] because I looked at some of the press reports from sort of May 98
[23:00.600 -> 23:08.520] maybe June 98 saying Beckham is going to disappear. You know this fopish, soft, you
[23:08.520 -> 23:13.640] know, Londoner is never gonna be able to cope with this national vilification. And
[23:13.640 -> 23:16.680] then to do what he did, he became second in FIFA World Player of the Year. He was
[23:16.680 -> 23:21.760] fantastic that season, incredible. I said to him, how did you achieve that level of
[23:21.760 -> 23:28.780] virtuosity in the teeth of adversity? His answer almost knocked me down because I think I'd written my book Black Box Thinking which
[23:28.780 -> 23:33.340] is about learning from failure at that point. He said, well, it was a mistake, the challenge
[23:33.340 -> 23:38.540] on simeone, okay, he overreacted but I was petulant. What a learning opportunity, I never
[23:38.540 -> 23:44.780] made that mistake again. Isn't that how you grow? Honestly, I've got to say, it was like
[23:44.780 -> 23:49.980] a living, breathing embodiment of the growth my so he is a remark i've interviewed lots of sports people.
[23:50.160 -> 23:57.840] Ronaldo serena williams fantastic victoria pendleton so many federa nadal jockovich.
[24:05.320 -> 24:10.240] he didn't necessarily have the most talent but his work ethic from a young age to maximize that talent and his capacity to face up to adversity on the pitch and he impressed me
[24:10.240 -> 24:14.000] far more than for example Steve Redgrave who's got a reputation for being hot.
[24:14.000 -> 24:16.000] Beckham was just on a different level.
[24:16.000 -> 24:20.560] The beep test, I remember Gary Neville saying to me Beckham, he ran through the bleep test
[24:20.560 -> 24:21.560] twice.
[24:21.560 -> 24:25.960] It was, you know, I think Neville said he was an animal. And Neville,
[24:25.960 -> 24:30.360] when you think of his work ethic, to describe Beckham in that way. So Damien, you know,
[24:30.360 -> 24:35.520] I do think we need to kind of redefine failure as an opportunity rather than always as a
[24:35.520 -> 24:36.520] threat.
[24:36.520 -> 24:37.520] Damien Rees And I'd love to talk about the hard work thing
[24:37.520 -> 24:41.320] for a second because I think we discuss so many of the facets of high performance on
[24:41.320 -> 24:45.120] this podcast and I actually think we don't go down the road of hard
[24:45.120 -> 24:50.960] work often enough. It's kind of like, it's almost, we either don't talk about it because we think
[24:50.960 -> 24:56.640] that it's just a natural given that you know you're gonna have to work hard or we maybe downplay it
[24:56.640 -> 25:01.600] because it's not quite as sexy as resilience and you know mental fortitude and all the other things
[25:01.600 -> 25:07.120] right but I'm sure all of us have looked at our kids and thought, that's not bad, but imagine if you actually put some effort in.
[25:07.120 -> 25:12.200] So, I love this topic of how to grow our young people
[25:12.200 -> 25:14.600] because, you know, we're all fine,
[25:14.600 -> 25:16.880] but we're kind of more than halfway through now, right?
[25:16.880 -> 25:19.440] I want to get to the next generation.
[25:19.440 -> 25:21.160] What have you learned over the years
[25:21.160 -> 25:23.040] for the way that we deal with young people
[25:23.040 -> 25:28.320] to make them understand as early as possible what hard work is? And the way I don't think that they're ever too young to realize
[25:29.040 -> 25:34.960] hard proper hard work. It's a great thing it's a great thing and what one of the reasons I think
[25:34.960 -> 25:40.320] it's sometimes difficult to get this message across is I think today we've started to worship
[25:40.320 -> 25:46.200] effortless performance the idea of someone somebody picks up a musical instrument is immediately playing like Mozart
[25:46.200 -> 25:50.760] You know, you see some of the reality formats where you get overnight success
[25:51.320 -> 25:57.280] Instant gratification if young people think oh, that's how you succeed by being brilliant first time around
[25:57.560 -> 26:02.100] They're not going to be brilliant first time around and therefore they're going to assume obviously don't have what it takes
[26:02.100 -> 26:03.840] I might as well not bother with the violin anymore
[26:03.840 -> 26:09.440] Whereas if you give them a sense authentically of how success happens, not in these formats
[26:09.440 -> 26:14.600] on reality television, but how James Dyson created the dual cyclone vacuum cleaner, how
[26:14.600 -> 26:19.320] Serena Williams became a great tennis player, and you go through the actual processes that
[26:19.320 -> 26:25.700] were necessary to get to that level of virtuosity, they begin to understand that this is an absolutely
[26:25.700 -> 26:30.780] necessary part of how you fulfill your potential rather than thinking, oh, it's something that
[26:30.780 -> 26:34.120] happens quickly because that undermines resilience, right?
[26:34.120 -> 26:35.880] One other thing, Damian, just on failure.
[26:35.880 -> 26:41.080] You know, I'd argue that our most successful institution is science, right?
[26:41.080 -> 26:42.960] Your background to it.
[26:42.960 -> 26:47.080] And if you think about the success of science, which is given so much to the world
[26:47.480 -> 26:52.680] Technology and great theories and so on. Why is science successful?
[26:52.680 -> 26:55.960] The reason is it actively pursues certain types of failure
[26:55.960 -> 27:01.560] If you know the result of an experiment before you conduct it, it is not an experiment
[27:02.080 -> 27:05.600] In order to conduct an experiment there has to be a tolerance of risk.
[27:05.600 -> 27:09.800] There has to be a humility. We're trying to find out something we didn't previously know.
[27:09.800 -> 27:12.400] We're trying to push back the frontiers of knowledge.
[27:12.400 -> 27:16.200] You know, the great philosopher of science, for me the greatest of all, Sir Karl Popper,
[27:16.200 -> 27:18.200] said, human knowledge is finite.
[27:18.200 -> 27:22.400] The implication is that human ignorance is necessarily infinite.
[27:22.400 -> 27:25.000] Are we willing to push back the frontiers of knowledge
[27:25.000 -> 27:29.000] by taking sensible risks, extracting the learning?
[27:29.000 -> 27:32.200] You translate that into an inventor like Dyson.
[27:32.200 -> 27:37.800] 5,126 failed prototypes before he built that machine.
[27:37.800 -> 27:41.200] Look at any technology we use today, iPhones, laptops.
[27:41.200 -> 27:44.000] These are developed by iterative design methods
[27:44.000 -> 27:46.720] where you fail fast, where you iterative design methods where you fail
[27:44.800 -> 27:49.360] fast, where you beat a test, where you
[27:46.720 -> 27:50.720] prototype. So having that willingness to
[27:49.360 -> 27:53.320] clock up the hard work, I mean there's a
[27:50.720 -> 27:56.200] lot of setbacks in invention. Reinventing
[27:53.320 -> 27:58.920] ourselves, it's where it comes from always.
[27:56.200 -> 28:01.400] So tell us then in black box thinking
[27:58.920 -> 28:04.680] where you did that comparison of the
[28:01.400 -> 28:05.400] medical world and the aviation y cymharas o'r byd meddygol a'r dynion y ffyrdd ymdrechol
[28:05.400 -> 28:09.760] a'r eiliad i fynd yn ôl, i'w gynhwys, i fod yn hyderus
[28:09.760 -> 28:14.160] i ddod yn ôl i'r cymorth a gwneud yn well yn ymgyrchol.
[28:14.160 -> 28:16.400] A oeddwn i'n mynd i'r llyfr glas,
[28:16.400 -> 28:18.120] oherwydd rwy'n credu yw hynny'r hyn rydych chi'n ei ysgrifennu yma
[28:18.120 -> 28:20.480] am beth sy'n digwydd yn y llyfr glas hwnnw
[28:20.480 -> 28:22.560] sy'n ein gallu i ni wneud yn well
[28:22.560 -> 28:24.840] a'n gweithio'n fawr i'w wella.
[28:24.840 -> 28:29.400] Ie, mae'n cymhwysedd ddiddorol. black box that allows us to get better and invest in the hard work to improve. Yeah it's an interesting contrast so in that book you know in health care
[28:29.400 -> 28:36.640] safety critical mistakes can cost lives, aviation the same underlying reality but
[28:36.640 -> 28:40.480] they have very different learning cultures so in aviation every near miss
[28:40.480 -> 28:44.720] you know about a dozen happen every five minutes around the world they're openly
[28:44.720 -> 28:48.080] reported and then statistically analyzed. Why are we
[28:48.080 -> 28:51.840] getting these near misses? What are the latent weaknesses in our system? What
[28:51.840 -> 28:55.160] could we do differently to avert an accident before it's even happened? And
[28:55.160 -> 28:58.320] if there's a crash, they don't happen very often anymore, but every commercial
[28:58.320 -> 29:03.480] aircraft has a black box. One bit of it records the electronic data, the other
[29:03.480 -> 29:05.280] bit kind of records what they
[29:05.280 -> 29:09.520] call the ambient sound in the cockpit, how the pilot and co-pilot were talking to each
[29:09.520 -> 29:13.100] other in the build up to the crash. So the investigation branch can get this virtually
[29:13.100 -> 29:18.080] indestructible box, figure out precisely what went wrong. So again, you can put reforms
[29:18.080 -> 29:21.920] in place to ensure the same mistake never happens again. Now, was it because the communication
[29:21.920 -> 29:26.600] wasn't clear? Was there something confusing on the dashboard? Were air traffic control at fault? What can we
[29:26.600 -> 29:33.400] do to learn from this? In healthcare, unfortunately, still today, you know, for
[29:33.400 -> 29:36.740] complex reasons, there is not a learner. Partly because frontline
[29:36.740 -> 29:41.000] professionals are sometimes unfairly blamed for honest mistakes, if that makes
[29:41.000 -> 29:45.200] sense. You know, a nurse under pressure gives a patient the wrong medication,
[29:45.200 -> 29:49.400] confusing labelling. But if that nurse is going to be put on trial for culpable homicide,
[29:49.400 -> 29:54.040] you know, it's very easy to create a cover-up culture inadvertently. So drawing a rational
[29:54.040 -> 29:58.480] line between blame and accountability is very important in complex systems. But sometimes
[29:58.480 -> 30:03.000] also what gets in the way is the ego of doctors. You know, I'm perfect, I'm a consultant, I'm
[30:03.000 -> 30:10.240] brilliant at what I do. That wasn't a mistake, that was just a complication. And it takes a sting out of the error but it obfuscates
[30:10.240 -> 30:15.200] learning. And I think, to use a metaphor of the black box, there are almost always rich
[30:15.200 -> 30:20.200] learning opportunities on those occasions we fail. And having, you know, it doesn't
[30:20.200 -> 30:24.400] take long, a bit of discipline to think, why did that go wrong? What can I extract from
[30:24.400 -> 30:27.920] that, so I get better the next time? It's a hallmark of science and
[30:27.920 -> 30:32.080] I think all successful institutions. So when you've been part of teams or
[30:32.080 -> 30:37.000] organizations that have their own equivalent of that black box meeting,
[30:37.000 -> 30:40.840] what kind of things are you seeing happen in them that listeners could
[30:40.840 -> 30:45.000] take away and do in their world? There's quite good empirical evidence on this.
[30:45.000 -> 30:49.800] It needs to be open, respectful, but honest.
[30:49.800 -> 30:52.200] If you imagine, you know, in my table tennis career,
[30:52.200 -> 30:55.200] I have an awful forehand topspin technique.
[30:55.200 -> 30:57.600] You know, it's really defective.
[30:57.600 -> 31:00.600] I'm demonstrating it to Damien and Jake now, but you know,
[31:00.600 -> 31:03.200] and I get to the end of my career and my coach says to me,
[31:03.200 -> 31:05.500] Matthew, your forehand topspin technique was awful
[31:05.500 -> 31:10.280] But I never mentioned it because I didn't want to hurt your feelings. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
[31:10.840 -> 31:14.840] That's a bad thing. I'm lacking feedback that could help me to improve
[31:15.640 -> 31:20.540] We have an absolute responsibility in team meetings to respectfully
[31:21.240 -> 31:27.840] Feedback on those things that our colleagues could do better. If they offer an idea that isn't going to work, we must say so.
[31:27.840 -> 31:31.680] That way you create an open and honest and candid discussion.
[31:31.680 -> 31:34.720] Sometimes called, I hate the jargon, psychological safety.
[31:34.720 -> 31:40.080] It is the variable that is most strongly predictive of effective evaluations of all kinds, with
[31:40.080 -> 31:41.400] a couple of caveats.
[31:41.400 -> 31:42.560] And that's what you really want.
[31:42.560 -> 31:45.040] You know, it comes to a certain extent, Stamian, from trust.
[31:45.040 -> 31:46.560] If I trust the coach, what am I hearing?
[31:46.560 -> 31:47.920] Oh, thank you for this feedback.
[31:47.920 -> 31:49.560] I may disagree, but let's go and check out
[31:49.560 -> 31:51.600] the video evidence and see what we can find.
[31:51.600 -> 31:54.080] The meaning of words, the meaning of feedback,
[31:54.080 -> 31:56.160] hinges to a certain extent on the quality
[31:56.160 -> 31:57.880] of the relationships we have.
[31:57.880 -> 32:01.960] So psychological safety, this kind of open evaluation,
[32:01.960 -> 32:09.200] takes on tremendous power in a situation of trust. Can we talk about whether all of these great lessons and learnings that we've spoken about
[32:09.200 -> 32:14.440] so far get us closer to happiness or contentment? You know, there was a survey that said British
[32:14.440 -> 32:19.840] children are the least satisfied in Europe. Why would that be and what can we do about
[32:19.840 -> 32:20.840] it?
[32:20.840 -> 32:26.800] So it's a great, it is such an interesting philosophical question. Does being good at stuff make us happy?
[32:26.800 -> 32:28.000] Because what's the point otherwise?
[32:28.000 -> 32:31.800] You know, we sit and have hours and hours of podcast conversations about
[32:31.800 -> 32:37.800] non-negotiable behaviours and, you know, people listen to this to improve their lives
[32:37.800 -> 32:40.100] or their business or to find the answers, right?
[32:40.100 -> 32:43.000] Is any of it worthwhile if it doesn't make you happier?
[32:43.000 -> 32:52.400] Well,ably no. For me, the hard work only leads to fulfillment if it is attached to a purpose that you believe in.
[32:52.400 -> 32:54.800] Why would I want to be doing this thing?
[32:54.800 -> 33:02.960] Is it going to have some meaning that I think is valuable in some visceral existential way?
[33:02.960 -> 33:04.800] That, I think, is where you get the perfect storm.
[33:04.800 -> 33:05.000] Because you can imagine equipping somebody with a growth mindset, some visceral existential way. That I think is where you get the perfect storm.
[33:05.000 -> 33:06.640] Because you can imagine equipping somebody
[33:06.640 -> 33:08.080] with a growth mindset and they're like,
[33:08.080 -> 33:10.160] yeah, I can get good at this, but I don't want to,
[33:10.160 -> 33:11.600] I'm not interested.
[33:11.600 -> 33:15.360] That's why purpose I think begins to unlock that question.
[33:15.360 -> 33:18.900] For me, I don't think we talk enough about purpose.
[33:18.900 -> 33:20.760] You sometimes ask, are you,
[33:20.760 -> 33:23.800] I feel I think at least fulfilled
[33:23.800 -> 33:25.760] because some of the stuff I do think, I think does
[33:25.760 -> 33:26.760] have a purpose.
[33:26.760 -> 33:28.680] So the hard work has a meaning.
[33:28.680 -> 33:32.920] And that synthesis between purpose and hard work, I think, is where you get the perfect
[33:32.920 -> 33:33.920] storm.
[33:33.920 -> 33:38.480] Is it because I think some people feel alienated about the conversation about purpose?
[33:38.480 -> 33:42.840] I think maybe that's why I'm always careful about this very common social media thing
[33:42.840 -> 33:49.480] of find your purpose, guys, because it's not always not always practical maybe I think it's a brilliant point and you
[33:49.480 -> 33:54.440] know I do think we can sometimes find it difficult to step out of our own echo
[33:54.440 -> 34:00.160] chamber our own value system I think of my mum who you know she had my brother
[34:00.160 -> 34:05.600] at 16 and and you know not so she must have met my dad at 15.
[34:05.600 -> 34:10.740] And me at 18, my sister at 23.
[34:10.740 -> 34:15.920] And I remember her stacking shelves at ASDA and you know, working so hard.
[34:15.920 -> 34:19.760] She didn't really have a choice, you know, she didn't have O-levels.
[34:19.760 -> 34:21.280] She left school too early.
[34:21.280 -> 34:24.160] Brilliantly bright person, right, but didn't have the opportunities that they have given
[34:24.160 -> 34:26.360] to me, which has given me the choice that you're
[34:26.360 -> 34:30.320] describing. But would she have thought of that as purpose? No, she would have
[34:30.320 -> 34:35.320] said that her purpose there was was helping those kids, working for a kid, you
[34:35.320 -> 34:40.120] know, she still today would do it. I mean that's, you know, the love, the
[34:40.120 -> 34:43.760] unconditional love, it's just a remarkable thing, incredible thing.
[34:43.760 -> 34:46.480] So when
[34:44.480 -> 34:49.080] you work with teams or individuals then
[34:46.480 -> 34:51.080] Matthew, how, what kind of questions do
[34:49.080 -> 34:53.120] you ask them that maybe do move them
[34:51.080 -> 34:55.280] closer to being able to answer that
[34:53.120 -> 34:57.560] question around purpose? I think it's
[34:55.280 -> 34:59.600] difficult. The very simple answer is
[34:57.560 -> 35:02.240] obviously for people when thinking of
[34:59.600 -> 35:04.120] career choices to try and construct
[35:02.240 -> 35:08.080] their life in a way that they find jobs,
[35:04.120 -> 35:06.240] occupations,
[35:06.240 -> 35:12.240] voluntary work, where there is purpose, something that they really connect with. I do think
[35:12.240 -> 35:18.200] organizations can articulate a sense of purpose in a more powerful and authentic way. What
[35:18.200 -> 35:22.400] Alex Ferguson did at United, I think we'll all agree it's even more impressive now when
[35:22.400 -> 35:29.220] you think of the contrast with what happened after he left. All of those players in the class of 92 I've got to
[35:29.220 -> 35:33.800] know well and I know you know really well also talked about how Ferguson it
[35:33.800 -> 35:37.640] wasn't a transactional club it wasn't like you're at United in order to
[35:37.640 -> 35:41.820] receive a paycheck and you expended motivation because you expected to get
[35:41.820 -> 35:46.500] the money into your bank account at the end of the month Ferguson talked a lot about the history of United
[35:46.680 -> 35:53.400] so remarkable club the Munich air disaster where many of the best players in the country perished on a runway in
[35:53.840 -> 36:00.720] Germany and then rebuilding the club from the ashes of that terrible disaster every Monday at training
[36:01.520 -> 36:05.520] He invited two fans. One of him was Norman Williamson, trying to think
[36:05.520 -> 36:10.680] of the other one, ordinary fans, but who had been fans at the time of that disaster, who
[36:10.680 -> 36:14.520] had lived and breathed the club throughout their lives, who were like a conduit to a
[36:14.520 -> 36:19.760] wider community. Manchester United was not a football club, it was a way of life. And
[36:19.760 -> 36:24.440] the young players would come in and say, why is Ferguson inviting these old fans to come
[36:24.440 -> 36:26.840] and watch us? Why does he talk to them?
[36:26.840 -> 36:30.440] And then over time they begin to understand that in his team meetings he's talking about
[36:30.440 -> 36:36.240] this community, the happiness that they transmit with their wins and their actions and their
[36:36.240 -> 36:38.680] effort and their sense of endeavor.
[36:38.680 -> 36:42.520] You know, the Cliff Training Ground, you know, that's where George Best and Charlton would
[36:42.520 -> 36:46.020] park and this is where Neville and Beckham and gigs learn their craft
[36:46.420 -> 36:48.420] You know, this was a deeply immersive
[36:48.940 -> 36:54.960] Human way of articulating the meaning of a football club and it's interesting you listen to the pronouns
[36:55.380 -> 37:02.040] With with many players of the transactional club. They talk about the club is they at United always we
[37:02.660 -> 37:09.240] Schmeichel was interviewed years after leaving leaving united it was a it was a man united company man united play in the champions league and
[37:09.200 -> 37:16.760] yes somebody got a denmark left united as a formal employee many years earlier he said we did this we did that we could have done that better
[37:16.680 -> 37:25.200] never the same the pronouns really begin to help you understand the extent to which the people in an institution are connected to the meaning,
[37:25.200 -> 37:32.200] the purpose of that institution.
[37:32.200 -> 37:37.480] As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns.
[37:37.480 -> 37:43.240] But a deep voice doesn't sell B2B and advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
[37:43.240 -> 37:47.040] That's why if you're a B2B marketer, you should use LinkedIn ads.
[37:47.040 -> 37:51.240] LinkedIn has the targeting capabilities to help you reach the world's largest professional
[37:51.240 -> 37:52.240] audience.
[37:52.240 -> 37:56.280] That's right, over 70 million decision makers all in one place.
[37:56.280 -> 38:01.720] All the big wigs, then medium wigs, also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[38:01.720 -> 38:03.600] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[38:03.600 -> 38:08.000] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[38:08.000 -> 38:13.400] So, does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
[38:13.400 -> 38:14.720] voice in the world?
[38:14.720 -> 38:15.720] Yes.
[38:15.720 -> 38:17.000] Yes, it does.
[38:17.000 -> 38:21.520] Get started today and see why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be.
[38:21.520 -> 38:24.800] We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
[38:24.800 -> 38:25.360] Go to LinkedIn.com slash even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com
[38:25.360 -> 38:30.360] slash results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash results. Terms
[38:30.360 -> 38:36.880] and conditions apply. On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are
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[40:15.040 -> 40:19.760] I love this conversation about building groups, building teams, all going in the same direction,
[40:19.760 -> 40:25.420] but going in the same direction with diversity. And you've written some amazing stuff about cognitive
[40:25.420 -> 40:30.700] diversity and I would love to have a conversation about this because I think for people listening
[40:30.700 -> 40:36.220] it is the way to build a successful team to make sure that you are cognitively diverse
[40:36.220 -> 40:39.500] and some will be listening thinking what does that mean?
[40:39.500 -> 40:46.320] Yeah, I think it's the most important ingredient today for teams performing well.
[40:46.320 -> 40:49.400] And effectively, what does it mean?
[40:49.400 -> 40:56.040] It means having people with different perspectives and insights and lenses that they use to illuminate
[40:56.040 -> 40:57.800] a difficult challenge or problem.
[40:57.800 -> 41:05.040] New strategy, coming up with a new technology, evaluating a failure of one kind or another.
[41:05.040 -> 41:08.440] Maybe one quick story was Bletchley Park, you know, this is a team that cracked the
[41:08.440 -> 41:13.120] Enigma code during the Second World War, and they had, you know, you're thinking code-breaking.
[41:13.120 -> 41:15.200] This is a massive event in the Second World War.
[41:15.200 -> 41:18.240] You're thinking mathematicians and number crunchers, right?
[41:18.240 -> 41:22.960] So Alan Turing, who was one of the great computational scientists of the 20th century.
[41:22.960 -> 41:25.880] What's less well-known is on January 12th,
[41:25.880 -> 41:30.960] 1942, the Daily Telegraph organized a crossword competition. A reader had written to the editor
[41:30.960 -> 41:34.920] saying the crosswords are too easy, you know, I can solve them in less than 10 minutes.
[41:34.920 -> 41:38.760] The editor said, no, I don't believe that. But if anyone thinks they can solve the Daily
[41:38.760 -> 41:42.280] Telegraph crossword in less than 10 minutes, we'll have a competition on Fleet Street.
[41:42.280 -> 41:45.540] And if anyone succeeds, we'll make a 100 pound donation to charity
[41:45.540 -> 41:52.600] So 30 would-be crossword enthusiasts turn up one of whom is a guy called Stanley Sedgwick. He's not a mathematician
[41:52.600 -> 41:58.720] He's a kind of a lowly accountancy clerk who got really good on the Daily Telegraph crossword on his commute in from the suburbs
[41:58.880 -> 42:00.960] And he was the outstanding performer on the day
[42:01.280 -> 42:09.360] But what the editor of the Daily Telegraph didn't know none of the competitors is that Bletchley Park secret intelligence service were watching and they
[42:09.360 -> 42:15.760] hired him to go to Bletchley. Why? Because cracking a code is really complex and multi-dimensional.
[42:15.760 -> 42:19.280] If you have a team of brilliant mathematicians they're going to miss a huge amount that is
[42:19.280 -> 42:23.680] really important. It turns out that code breaking requires people like Stanley Sedgwick because
[42:23.680 -> 42:30.300] crossword solvers, the first one or two clues in a national newspaper crossword, there are only five setters
[42:30.300 -> 42:31.300] at each paper.
[42:31.300 -> 42:34.920] So you can tell who the setter is from the first one or two clues and efficiently anticipate
[42:34.920 -> 42:35.920] what's coming.
[42:35.920 -> 42:37.440] That's what the really good crossword solvers do.
[42:37.440 -> 42:40.040] So good at getting into other people's minds.
[42:40.040 -> 42:44.080] And you need that in code breaking because the inputters into the Enigma machine are
[42:44.080 -> 42:47.760] supposed to put the letters in randomly but because they're doing it again and again,
[42:47.760 -> 42:51.280] they start using the same opening two or three letters.
[42:51.280 -> 42:52.280] Sedgwick was fantastic.
[42:52.280 -> 42:56.360] It's sometimes called in psychology, theory of mind, good mentalizing capacity.
[42:56.360 -> 42:57.360] Brilliant.
[42:57.360 -> 43:03.720] And he worked in Hut 10 and this effectively helped Bletchley Park to crack the naval Enigma
[43:03.720 -> 43:05.100] which was a breakthrough and winning the battle
[43:05.100 -> 43:09.880] of the Atlantic. But it wasn't just Sedgwick. There were linguists, cultural historians,
[43:09.880 -> 43:14.940] people who brought different lenses and insights to this problem. And at the moment, I think
[43:14.940 -> 43:19.820] most organizations, I say this with some conviction, are not yet properly optimal. They don't have
[43:19.820 -> 43:25.720] a cognitive diversity strategy. They haven't thought at an analytical level of the array
[43:25.720 -> 43:31.480] of voices and insights we need to solve this and they're often way, way, way too narrow.
[43:31.480 -> 43:34.420] Toby Curran Is there examples of real, like real world
[43:34.420 -> 43:38.640] examples of the issues that a lack of cognitive diversity can create?
[43:38.640 -> 43:42.320] Richard Wagner Oh, yeah, I mean so many. CIA is a good example.
[43:42.320 -> 43:49.320] So think about what the CIA is doing. It's an intelligence agency that is seeking to identify threats emerging from around the
[43:49.320 -> 43:55.680] world but with different kinds of societies, with different dynamics of religious radicalization
[43:55.680 -> 44:01.800] and different social institutions, clans and tribes, where names might be related to the
[44:01.800 -> 44:06.040] clan identity and affiliate. And you imagine that 95% of
[44:06.040 -> 44:14.200] the analytical intake of the CIA were white, middle class, west coast, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant,
[44:14.200 -> 44:19.600] male liberal arts graduates. Talented, each of them, you know, they passed a really sophisticated
[44:19.600 -> 44:23.240] battery of tests but they didn't have the cultural or sometimes called the tacit knowledge.
[44:23.240 -> 44:30.040] I mean, maybe a more intuitive example is in the late 1990s Tony Blair gave a speech where he was
[44:30.040 -> 44:33.440] saying what we need to do to crack down on anti-social behaviour, a big problem at the
[44:33.440 -> 44:38.280] time, is give police the power to march people engaged in anti-social behaviour to a cash
[44:38.280 -> 44:43.640] point, get them to withdraw £100 and issue an on the spot fine. And all the upper middle
[44:43.640 -> 44:49.280] class journalists thought it was a master stroke of a policy, right? But it has a flaw, which is that a
[44:49.280 -> 44:52.920] lot of the people identified wouldn't have a bank account, a lot of them wouldn't have
[44:52.920 -> 44:56.720] a – very few would have a hundred pound bank balance. In other words, if you like
[44:56.720 -> 45:02.080] conceptual flair, detached from sort of granular cultural understanding can be a disaster.
[45:02.080 -> 45:08.360] But it's not just about cultural understanding, You know, there's a whole array of things that really high performing organizations
[45:08.360 -> 45:13.160] are getting right on cognitive diversity, which is differentiating them from others.
[45:13.160 -> 45:15.400] It's difficult to do well, but it's mission critical.
[45:15.400 -> 45:16.800] Matthew Feeney How do we do it well?
[45:16.800 -> 45:19.000] Andrew Marshall Well, to use a different example, you mentioned
[45:19.000 -> 45:24.040] the FA performance which I was on for a couple of years. You know, you can see how somebody
[45:24.040 -> 45:28.360] like me might have something useful to say about football that people in the football ecosystem might
[45:28.360 -> 45:30.360] not have heard or thought about.
[45:30.360 -> 45:36.920] Or Dave Brailsford, a cycling coach, right, about endurance and recovery and selection.
[45:36.920 -> 45:41.440] Maybe he's got some ideas that might be directly relevant to football that isn't circulating
[45:41.440 -> 45:43.360] within the football milieu.
[45:43.360 -> 45:48.240] You can see how, you know, there's analysis gone in into the kinds of voices that might really help
[45:48.720 -> 45:55.040] Because if Gareth Southgate surrounded by red net Pulis allodice, he basically already knows what they know
[45:55.200 -> 45:58.560] They're not adding anything in terms of productivity or insight
[45:59.120 -> 46:01.120] So it's an echo chamber
[46:01.360 -> 46:05.120] But if me and Brailsford and Lucy Giles and so on were advising not on football
[46:05.120 -> 46:09.920] but on how to design a Hadron Collider, there'd be lots of cognitive diversity but it would
[46:09.920 -> 46:15.280] be largely irrelevant. Can you see that what you really want to do is an analysis, forgive
[46:15.280 -> 46:20.000] the formal terminology, of the dimensionality of the problems you're trying to solve and
[46:20.000 -> 46:24.280] you need to then map that on to the array of voices that you're assembling to solve
[46:24.280 -> 46:28.520] it. Now this is something that can be done well and it can be done
[46:28.520 -> 46:32.880] badly but that that's what it looks like. Really interesting. As you're saying it
[46:32.880 -> 46:37.480] I'm reminded of, do you remember that Owen Jones book Chavs? Yeah. That he wrote and
[46:37.480 -> 46:42.920] as you're talking and he starts the book by giving the story of Shannon Matthews
[46:42.920 -> 46:45.920] and Madeleine McCann, the ddysgwyl o ddau phlaid
[46:45.920 -> 46:52.240] sy'n edrych yn y mhobl o'r amser, ond un oedd yn rhedeg ar y cynllun ym Mhreidleithau yng Nghymru
[46:52.240 -> 46:58.560] ac yr un arall oedd yn rhedeg yn Portugal, ac mae'n edrych ar how mlaen y golymynciau
[46:58.560 -> 47:03.760] o'r ddau o'r stori, ac mae'n dweud bod mwy o golymynciau yn cael eu hysbysu
[47:03.760 -> 47:05.000] i Madeline McCann na Sianon Matthews, ac wrth fynd i'r cyfrifiad â'r dyrwyr yn ymwweud bod yna fwy o golymynion ar gyfer Madeline McCann na'r Shannon Matthews
[47:05.000 -> 47:10.000] ac wrth fynd i'r cyfrifiad â'r dyrwyr sy'n ymweld â nhw, maen nhw'n cael eu hysbysu i mewn i'r ddarlith
[47:10.000 -> 47:15.000] yng nghanol England, ac mae'r mwyafan ohonyn nhw wedi byw i mewn i ddarlith yng Nghymru.
[47:15.000 -> 47:21.000] Rwy'n credu mai dyna'r cwot oedd, mae'n dweud, rydw i wedi bod i Basra mwy o gyd, ac rydw i wedi bod i ddarlith yng Nghymru.
[47:21.000 -> 47:28.080] Ac felly, roedd eu model ddifrifol unig yn ddifrifol. of the state in England. And therefore their only mental model was shameless. So they were being told commission get pictures of people going
[47:28.080 -> 47:32.800] to the shops in pajamas when the local community raised funds that wasn't
[47:32.800 -> 47:38.920] reported because this sort of feckless work-shy image was what wanted to be
[47:38.920 -> 47:43.600] perpetuated. So true and by the way I think you know don't get too political I
[47:43.600 -> 47:46.900] think that sat behind the Trump election in America
[47:47.300 -> 47:49.300] Where people who are living in?
[47:49.480 -> 47:55.660] Communities that are sometimes described as a rust belt felt that the power elites just didn't understand the challenges that they were facing
[47:55.660 -> 47:58.920] I think it also to a large extent that sat behind brexit
[47:59.000 -> 47:59.500] Yeah
[47:59.500 -> 48:02.980] And you know it frustrated me enormously as somebody from a mixed-race background
[48:03.360 -> 48:09.240] When in the entire post-war period almost all of the newspaper columnists were white and they were talking
[48:09.240 -> 48:14.720] about the racial issues without understanding them at all.
[48:14.720 -> 48:18.520] And it's a tremendous sense of frustration that emerges from that.
[48:18.520 -> 48:21.040] And I think you're absolutely right.
[48:21.040 -> 48:27.000] Diversity in social class is critical for politics because no policy can work, however
[48:27.000 -> 48:32.800] conceptually sophisticated, if you don't understand the conditions of the people who are going
[48:32.800 -> 48:36.600] to have to deal with the consequences of it. I talk in Rebel Ideas about the poll tax,
[48:36.600 -> 48:44.000] a classic blind spot by a group of policy makers who all came from a given, largely
[48:44.000 -> 48:45.520] aristocratic social class not
[48:45.520 -> 48:48.560] just upper middle class. Well that was the question I was going to ask about
[48:48.560 -> 48:54.240] how explicit do we need to be about some of these biases that people often don't
[48:54.240 -> 48:57.720] know they're holding. So the reason I mentioned that Owen Jones example was
[48:57.720 -> 49:00.800] that when he went and interviewed people they didn't even know that they didn't
[49:00.800 -> 49:07.000] know how naive they were about these estates. So I'm interested
[49:07.000 -> 49:10.600] in how do we start to smoke out these kind of conversations.
[49:10.600 -> 49:16.640] This is precisely why diversity matters so much. Because by definition, we're unaware
[49:16.640 -> 49:23.640] of our own blind spots. I mean, one example is the Industrial Revolution. So the Industrial
[49:23.640 -> 49:26.800] Revolution, the most important economic event in our species history
[49:27.800 -> 49:32.960] Economic growth takes off there are unintended consequences climate change and so on but never there's a very big moment
[49:33.200 -> 49:35.200] The second phase of it was electrification
[49:36.240 -> 49:42.720] So electrification gave the existing companies a huge opportunity because at the time the manufacturing process
[49:42.720 -> 49:49.720] There's a big steam engine in the middle of the factory connected to the various machines by a really elaborate but unreliable network
[49:49.720 -> 49:51.180] of levers and pulleys.
[49:51.180 -> 49:54.620] So the electrification, you can put a motor in each machine and completely streamline
[49:54.620 -> 49:56.340] the manufacturing process.
[49:56.340 -> 50:00.480] Wonderful opportunity for these companies to connect what they know with this new technology
[50:00.480 -> 50:01.680] and shape the future.
[50:01.680 -> 50:03.960] But there was no diversity.
[50:03.960 -> 50:10.420] Everyone in these industrial giants had only ever worked with steam engines. The steam engine was the centre of their conceptual
[50:10.420 -> 50:14.520] gravity. It's kind of the way they filtered all information. There was no diversity. I
[50:14.520 -> 50:18.240] think they were also in a fixed mindset. So what do you think they did? They got a giant
[50:18.240 -> 50:23.300] electric motor, put it in the middle of the factory as if it was a replacement steam engine,
[50:23.300 -> 50:28.040] and then just connected it to the same machines by the elaborate unreliable network. In
[50:28.040 -> 50:32.440] other words, when technology is changing, if everybody in your team, if everyone in
[50:32.440 -> 50:36.400] your group have come from the same background and think about the world in
[50:36.400 -> 50:40.040] the same way, their scanning horizon is so narrow. They're just gonna miss
[50:40.040 -> 50:44.080] everything that really matters. So yeah, you're absolutely right. You've got to
[50:44.080 -> 50:46.000] address the blind spots and the best way to do that is with cognitive diversity. everything that really matters. So yeah, you're absolutely right, you've got to
[50:43.960 -> 50:48.280] address the blind spots and the best way
[50:46.000 -> 50:50.440] to do that is with cognitive diversity.
[50:48.280 -> 50:53.360] But I'm interested in how we do it
[50:50.440 -> 50:55.720] without making people feel defensive
[50:53.360 -> 50:57.640] because I think when you challenge it,
[50:55.720 -> 51:01.640] like I have this joke with Jake sometimes, I
[50:57.640 -> 51:03.640] think sort of like regional discrimination
[51:01.640 -> 51:05.440] I think is the last acceptable thing
[51:03.640 -> 51:05.040] that you can take the piss out of somebody's accent based on where they discrimination, I think is the last
[51:02.920 -> 51:07.280] acceptable thing that you can take the
[51:05.040 -> 51:09.120] piss out of somebody's accent based on
[51:07.280 -> 51:11.400] where they're from, that if you were doing
[51:09.120 -> 51:14.360] that based on race or gender, you'd be called
[51:11.400 -> 51:16.680] out for it. And I'm interested in how we
[51:14.360 -> 51:18.840] do that without people feeling that
[51:16.680 -> 51:20.960] they're being challenged personally, because
[51:18.840 -> 51:22.560] often they just don't know that what
[51:20.960 -> 51:25.120] they say might be hurtful or might be
[51:22.560 -> 51:30.360] limiting their ability to perform. Well first of all I think you're absolutely right about the regional discrimination. Boris
[51:30.360 -> 51:35.640] Johnson has a particular accent and then I watched a video on Twitter I think it had
[51:35.640 -> 51:42.440] been posted, exactly the same words in a different accent, I think a northern accent if I can
[51:42.440 -> 51:48.920] use it. And suddenly you know one's own implicit biases come rushing to the surface.
[51:48.920 -> 51:52.560] Doesn't sound anything like as authoritative with that accent.
[51:52.560 -> 51:57.000] It's amazing the extent to which we can make implicit judgments against those who have
[51:57.000 -> 52:01.600] an accent that hasn't been associated with the dominant social class for many centuries.
[52:01.600 -> 52:12.080] I can see how that happens. But, you know, the way to stop diversity being a defensive thing is I hate demonising any group. I absolutely
[52:12.080 -> 52:18.040] abhor the phrase, pale, male, stale. Everyone has a huge amount to contribute to a diverse
[52:18.040 -> 52:23.680] group. The problem is when 85, 90, 100% are from a specific background, because that's
[52:23.680 -> 52:27.000] shutting their capacity to learn, right right if they're stuck in it
[52:27.000 -> 52:28.380] That's not good for them either
[52:28.380 -> 52:35.000] What you really want to do is make the argument for why cognitive diversity helps us to fulfill our purpose
[52:35.240 -> 52:40.520] We're working in this team because we want to have a purpose then we want to get the right array of voices that are going
[52:40.520 -> 52:43.960] To help us to pursue it effectively that way it becomes a positive
[52:44.560 -> 52:45.040] phenomenon rather than one that can that are going to help us to pursue it effectively. That way it becomes a positive phenomenon
[52:45.040 -> 52:50.120] rather than one that can incite defensive responses of the kind you describe.
[52:50.120 -> 52:55.680] I've really enjoyed this conversation. We've gone down all sorts of different little warrens
[52:55.680 -> 53:00.000] and things. Before we move on to our quickfire questions, I just want to know whether you
[53:00.000 -> 53:04.920] are deeply concerned about the future in which we live in, or whether you're hugely excited
[53:04.920 -> 53:08.260] about the opportunities for the future that we live in.
[53:08.260 -> 53:12.340] Instinctively, I'm quite an optimistic person, and I think there are big opportunities. I
[53:12.340 -> 53:16.140] mean, it depends how broad you want me to go, but we do face very significant challenges
[53:16.140 -> 53:22.500] as a world. Energy is the one that I think preys on my mind the most. You know, I did
[53:22.500 -> 53:25.080] an economics degree as an undergraduate. Energy wasn't
[53:25.080 -> 53:30.720] mentioned once in three years. Energy really sits outside our conceptual universe except
[53:30.720 -> 53:35.600] during an energy crisis. And if you think about it, you can't do anything without energy.
[53:35.600 -> 53:42.400] You can't make things without energy. You can't move without energy. Energy is the basic
[53:42.400 -> 53:46.400] engine of life and economics and growth.
[53:46.400 -> 53:52.000] And we're living through an energy crisis that is going to be incredibly difficult for our species to resolve.
[53:52.000 -> 53:57.600] My own sense is the next 80 years of this century are the most important in our history as a species.
[53:57.600 -> 54:02.200] I think it is absolutely crucial that we get our act together.
[54:02.200 -> 54:11.960] And in a more geo-strategic sense, you know, I do think that the West has got a genuine competitor in, you know, in autocracy in China. And I
[54:11.960 -> 54:16.560] think that's the challenge too. So I think there are, you know, it's going to be an interesting
[54:16.560 -> 54:17.560] period for us.
[54:17.560 -> 54:21.140] Mason And on a more micro level, are you excited
[54:21.140 -> 54:24.160] for your children's futures? Do you think there's more opportunity for them than ever
[54:24.160 -> 54:28.600] before? Toby Well, I've got to tell you, I've loved being a dad. I absolutely love being a parent. Isn't it brilliant?
[54:28.600 -> 54:29.720] Yeah, it's so interesting
[54:29.720 -> 54:32.440] And the other thing the other thing that strikes me is, you know
[54:32.440 -> 54:38.500] I'm a dad and I write books, you know for kids and it makes me sound as if I'm authority on bringing them up
[54:38.600 -> 54:44.500] My kids laugh when they see this because I struggle so much with getting things right with Evie and Teddy
[54:44.760 -> 54:45.160] Did you ever quote things back to you? Yes when they see this, because I struggle so much with getting things right with Evie and Teddy.
[54:45.160 -> 54:47.800] Did they ever quote things back to you?
[54:47.800 -> 54:50.960] Yes, they quote stuff back.
[54:50.960 -> 54:53.200] And I'm like, oh no, oh no.
[54:53.200 -> 54:54.080] You know, I do want to say, you know,
[54:54.080 -> 54:55.560] parents, it's such a challenge,
[54:55.560 -> 54:57.520] such an interesting challenge.
[54:57.520 -> 54:59.160] That's one thing I do think,
[54:59.160 -> 55:01.400] is we don't give parents enough credit.
[55:01.400 -> 55:02.520] Have you noticed in the world today,
[55:02.520 -> 55:04.960] it's very easy to blame one's parents
[55:04.960 -> 55:06.480] for anything that's wrong with one's own life
[55:06.480 -> 55:09.920] But sometimes obviously there are parents who aren't great, but you know the parents that I see
[55:10.800 -> 55:13.420] just amazing heroic people and I
[55:14.400 -> 55:18.680] You know look back on my childhood. I just to wonderful wonderful wonderful parents
[55:18.680 -> 55:23.160] So I'm very optimistic for my kids, you know, my son Ted mate. You've got a
[55:23.720 -> 55:26.800] Get less angry when you mess up.
[55:26.800 -> 55:32.320] Evie, what would I say to Evie? Absolutely wonderful, such a lovely girl.
[55:32.320 -> 55:36.200] Concentrate harder with the compass. What was it, the protractor?
[55:36.200 -> 55:39.000] The teacher told me this apparently yesterday.
[55:39.000 -> 55:43.000] Realise that you put that in a bag at 16 years of age and never see it again.
[55:43.000 -> 55:45.840] I'm still waiting to use up on some
[55:50.560 -> 55:52.560] You know the other day I was lying in bed, which is very rare for me and Florence comes in news nine ago So that's not very high performance
[55:54.960 -> 55:56.240] That's like okay
[55:56.240 -> 55:59.080] Yes is also important right quick fire questions
[55:59.120 -> 56:06.560] What are the three non negotiable behaviors that you hold dear and that you and people around you need to buy into I would say I
[56:07.640 -> 56:11.940] Definitely don't like gossip if you've got a problem with someone isn't it just
[56:12.680 -> 56:15.440] Respectful to take it to them rather than talk behind their backs
[56:15.440 -> 56:20.480] I don't like that at all. And then the other two I'd say the two things that we've discussed a lot
[56:21.200 -> 56:26.640] Passion and a willingness to work hard to achieve it. Great. What's your
[56:26.640 -> 56:29.840] biggest weakness and what's your greatest strength? I do know funnily
[56:29.840 -> 56:34.120] enough I would say that it's the same thing for both. Positivity. So my wife
[56:34.120 -> 56:37.800] thinks I'm sometimes way too positive. Well I need to say you know you know
[56:37.800 -> 56:41.280] something awful happened in our house a while ago and I was like it's okay we'll get
[56:41.280 -> 56:47.200] through. It's like no it isn't. This isn't't. Let's acknowledge it's a disaster before we move on.
[56:47.200 -> 56:51.800] So that can definitely really wind Cathy up, my positivity.
[56:51.800 -> 56:55.520] But then I think it can be quite a good thing, right, when you're willing to look on the
[56:55.520 -> 56:58.440] bright side and galvanise people.
[56:58.440 -> 57:00.520] So you know, probably the same thing for both.
[57:00.520 -> 57:01.520] Steve Great.
[57:01.520 -> 57:04.760] With the life you've lived and the books you've read and the research that you've done, I
[57:04.760 -> 57:08.080] think you'll enjoy this question. The hidden 1% makes a big
[57:08.080 -> 57:12.240] difference to our success. So could you tell us where in your life you strive to
[57:12.240 -> 57:17.040] find that hidden 1% with the idea that how you do anything is how you do
[57:17.040 -> 57:21.100] everything? It's true isn't it? It's the details that can make a massive
[57:21.100 -> 57:27.340] difference. You know that guy Brailsford, the cycling coach talked about marginal gains, small things that can
[57:27.340 -> 57:27.920] accumulate.
[57:28.360 -> 57:32.680] I would say probably the willingness to, to
[57:32.680 -> 57:33.400] work harder.
[57:33.880 -> 57:35.160] And I think that comes from my parents.
[57:35.160 -> 57:35.960] You work too hard.
[57:36.920 -> 57:37.460] At times.
[57:37.460 -> 57:38.520] I think Jake, yeah, I do.
[57:38.680 -> 57:41.440] I do find it quite difficult to take holidays.
[57:42.320 -> 57:45.760] And when I do go on holiday, I'm constantly reading and researching and thinking of the next, but I find it quite difficult to take holidays and when I do
[57:42.640 -> 57:47.440] go on holiday I'm constantly reading and
[57:45.760 -> 57:49.040] researching and thinking of the next book.
[57:47.440 -> 57:51.000] I find it quite difficult to switch off and
[57:49.040 -> 57:53.120] that can often take a toll on the
[57:51.000 -> 57:55.000] people one loves. So yeah, that maybe is
[57:53.120 -> 57:56.880] another weakness to add to the to the
[57:55.000 -> 58:00.000] list. So this next question is one that
[57:56.880 -> 58:01.600] I'm really intrigued by because I, in all
[58:00.000 -> 58:03.600] the books that you've done I think just
[58:01.600 -> 58:06.320] the sheer breadth of your knowledge and your
[58:03.600 -> 58:06.360] research is outstanding. So I'm books that you've done I think just the sheer breadth of your knowledge and your
[58:03.600 -> 58:09.200] research is outstanding. So I'm
[58:06.360 -> 58:11.280] interested in what book, podcast or
[58:09.200 -> 58:13.800] learning resource would you advocate
[58:11.280 -> 58:16.680] apart from your own that our listeners
[58:13.800 -> 58:19.520] could or should consume? That's a great
[58:16.680 -> 58:21.240] question. I think we're living today through
[58:19.520 -> 58:23.280] an absolute revolution in social
[58:21.240 -> 58:25.240] science of the kind that we're all
[58:23.280 -> 58:30.360] interested in. You know in the same way that Einstein and the quantum mechanic theorists really changed the natural sciences
[58:30.360 -> 58:34.800] and Darwin the biological ones, we're living through this era in social science. It's an
[58:34.800 -> 58:40.440] incredibly exciting era for understanding the human condition. And there are a group
[58:40.440 -> 58:48.840] of researchers I think are genuinely world class and leading the field and one has got a book coming out next year so I won't mention that.
[58:48.840 -> 58:52.440] But Joe Henrich at Harvard, he's a professor of human evolutionary biology at Harvard,
[58:52.440 -> 58:55.240] he's written two genuinely blockbuster books.
[58:55.240 -> 59:01.360] One of them, The Secret of Our Success, which is a masterpiece and then the second is called
[59:01.360 -> 59:05.680] The Weirdest People in the World, which is about Westerners.
[59:05.680 -> 59:10.120] And how, you know, we talk about psychology as if it's uniform throughout the world. Turns
[59:10.120 -> 59:14.720] out we're culturally, psychologically very different and Westerners anchor the tale of
[59:14.720 -> 59:18.320] the distribution and Henrik has written rather wonderfully on that.
[59:18.320 -> 59:19.320] Henry Kershaw, Jr.: Brilliant, thank you.
[59:19.320 -> 59:22.660] Steve McLaughlin, Jr.: Very nice. And the final question, your departing message really
[59:22.660 -> 59:30.320] for the listeners to this really interesting hour, your one golden rule for them to live a high performance life, what would you say?
[59:30.320 -> 59:32.460] Well, I would say, so keep listening.
[59:32.460 -> 59:33.460] It's a great podcast.
[59:33.460 -> 59:34.460] Thanks for having me.
[59:34.460 -> 59:35.460] I really, really enjoyed it.
[59:35.460 -> 59:36.460] I wasn't expecting it.
[59:36.460 -> 59:37.460] It was deep, right?
[59:37.460 -> 59:41.860] We went into also in broad, broad and deep.
[59:41.860 -> 59:42.860] What would I say?
[59:42.860 -> 59:45.120] You know, I think the always be a learner
[59:45.940 -> 59:49.520] Always always more to learn and the world is so interesting
[59:49.960 -> 59:52.120] You keep that learning mindset people
[59:52.120 -> 59:52.320] I mean
[59:52.320 -> 59:58.520] This is a self-selecting group who reach out for this podcast because they are hoping to learn and I feel exactly the same way about
[59:58.520 -> 01:00:00.520] life love that
[01:00:09.360 -> 01:00:15.360] Damien, Jake, loved that. Me too. I think what Matthew was brilliant at doing there was taking us into those cultures to understand how to champion different
[01:00:15.360 -> 01:00:19.800] voices, how to create a psychologically safe environment where people can speak
[01:00:19.800 -> 01:00:24.080] up, how to embrace failure. Lots of messages that we've had on all the
[01:00:24.080 -> 01:00:26.000] podcast. I think Matthew was brilliantdu bod Matthew yn dda iawn
[01:00:26.000 -> 01:00:28.000] yn gallu gysylltu â'i gilydd
[01:00:28.000 -> 01:00:30.000] i'w gwrando a'i ymchwil
[01:00:30.000 -> 01:00:32.000] a'i gwrthdraethau ei hun hefyd.
[01:00:32.000 -> 01:00:34.000] Felly, rwy'n mwynhau'r cyfrifiad.
[01:00:34.000 -> 01:00:36.000] Ac mae'r adroddiadau da i'r rhafnai hefyd.
[01:00:36.000 -> 01:00:38.000] Ie, yn dda iawn. Rwy'n credu, fel y dywedais i
[01:00:38.000 -> 01:00:40.000] i'w gwrthdraeth, y llyfr y gafodd ei gynnal
[01:00:40.000 -> 01:00:42.000] yn enwedig ar blant. Rwy'n credu
[01:00:42.000 -> 01:00:44.000] bod e'n ddiddorol iawn bod yn
[01:00:44.000 -> 01:00:49.480] ysgrifennu peth i bobl ifanc i'w gwrthdraeth, yn hytrach na'n gofyn aimed at kids. I just thought it was really refreshing that he was writing something for young people to read rather than asking older people to read
[01:00:49.480 -> 01:00:52.680] it and try and filter it down and I think I'm sure his new book will be
[01:00:52.680 -> 01:00:56.080] similar. And can I just say briefly for all the parents that are listening to
[01:00:56.080 -> 01:01:01.520] this, hearing that great advice and then feeling even more like a failing parent,
[01:01:01.520 -> 01:01:06.000] like we all feel like we get it wrong, right? We all feel
[01:01:04.680 -> 01:01:08.040] like we're failing parents, none of us
[01:01:06.000 -> 01:01:09.360] feel like we have the answers and I think
[01:01:08.040 -> 01:01:10.440] it's important to say that because I
[01:01:09.360 -> 01:01:12.280] think too often you can hear great
[01:01:10.440 -> 01:01:13.320] advice and you feel like everyone else
[01:01:12.280 -> 01:01:15.120] is doing the right thing and you're not
[01:01:13.320 -> 01:01:18.320] but that is not the case. I think the
[01:01:15.120 -> 01:01:20.120] fact that even if you're thinking I'm
[01:01:18.320 -> 01:01:21.520] not doing a good job tells you that you
[01:01:20.120 -> 01:01:23.480] probably are doing a good job because
[01:01:21.520 -> 01:01:25.760] you're thinking about your approach,
[01:01:23.480 -> 01:01:26.160] you're going back and revisiting what you're doing.
[01:01:26.160 -> 01:01:27.960] You're reflecting on could I be better?
[01:01:28.440 -> 01:01:32.520] But I think I'd go back to that advice we give so often, just be kind to yourself.
[01:01:32.920 -> 01:01:35.800] We're all doing the best we can, but what we've got in the moment, we're in.
[01:01:36.200 -> 01:01:36.600] Top man.
[01:01:36.840 -> 01:01:37.280] Cheers mate.
[01:01:40.200 -> 01:01:43.480] Well, it's time once again to welcome another listener to high performance.
[01:01:43.480 -> 01:01:45.920] It's a pleasure to say hello to Alex Walton. Hi, Alex.
[01:01:45.920 -> 01:01:48.560] Alex Walton Hi there, Jake. Hi there, Damian. Great to be
[01:01:48.560 -> 01:01:50.720] here. Jason Vale One of the things you mentioned when you
[01:01:50.720 -> 01:01:55.440] reached out to us is that you've just completed a series of half year reviews for the teams
[01:01:55.440 -> 01:02:00.560] who work in the same telecoms business as you and that you're using tips and techniques taken
[01:02:00.560 -> 01:02:04.480] directly from the podcast. I suppose I'm always interested in when someone does that,
[01:02:04.480 -> 01:02:06.240] how does it go down with other people?
[01:02:06.240 -> 01:02:07.680] Are you met with a kind of cynical,
[01:02:07.680 -> 01:02:09.280] oh, here it goes again,
[01:02:09.280 -> 01:02:10.840] talking about that bloody podcast,
[01:02:10.840 -> 01:02:13.480] or do you find that the stuff that we talk about on here
[01:02:13.480 -> 01:02:15.440] can relate quite nicely to everyone?
[01:02:15.440 -> 01:02:17.800] For me, absolutely seamless.
[01:02:17.800 -> 01:02:18.980] They almost didn't know.
[01:02:18.980 -> 01:02:22.900] I did those one-to-ones and the conversation
[01:02:22.900 -> 01:02:24.540] that I'd picked up, it was Paul McGinley,
[01:02:24.540 -> 01:02:26.080] when he'd been talking about that time
[01:02:26.080 -> 01:02:29.680] with Alex Ferguson and how do you coach David Beckham?
[01:02:29.680 -> 01:02:31.680] Well, how would you coach David Beckham?
[01:02:31.680 -> 01:02:33.760] And literally the next day,
[01:02:33.760 -> 01:02:36.040] I was in one of the conversations and they would say,
[01:02:36.040 -> 01:02:37.400] well, what do you think about this?
[01:02:37.400 -> 01:02:39.040] Should we be going down this road?
[01:02:39.040 -> 01:02:41.120] It was like, well, what do you think about this?
[01:02:41.120 -> 01:02:43.040] Should we be going down this road?
[01:02:43.040 -> 01:02:44.680] And it just evolved from there.
[01:02:44.680 -> 01:02:48.600] And so when I talk about using these things, I think so many of
[01:02:48.600 -> 01:02:52.960] them can be seamless things that you integrate into day-to-day life that make
[01:02:52.960 -> 01:02:58.520] a significant difference. Oh, that's brilliant. Now tell us about this book idea. I've
[01:02:58.520 -> 01:03:03.600] been reading about it and think it's utterly fascinating. So about three years
[01:03:03.600 -> 01:03:05.840] ago, I'd been struggling with my mental
[01:03:05.840 -> 01:03:11.680] health for a while. I've been struggling really with sort of negative thoughts, very much that
[01:03:11.680 -> 01:03:18.560] negative what-if question consumed my time. And it really was, it was quite relentless.
[01:03:18.560 -> 01:03:26.580] And I went away for a weekend, I came up with a simple thought process that I've used every single day from that
[01:03:26.580 -> 01:03:30.240] point that has utterly transformed my thinking.
[01:03:30.240 -> 01:03:34.360] And I do know how that sounds, because if anybody had said to me before that weekend,
[01:03:34.360 -> 01:03:37.760] you're going to think of something that will change your thinking, but it just flipped
[01:03:37.760 -> 01:03:41.660] me from a negative to a positive way of thinking.
[01:03:41.660 -> 01:03:50.580] It's a simple thought process in my mind that allows me to go to a different, more positive place. It's two questions I ask myself, which is how
[01:03:50.580 -> 01:03:54.040] can I help them? How can I make them smile? How can I help them? How can I make
[01:03:54.040 -> 01:04:00.660] them smile? And I can use it literally in any circumstance, in any situation, with
[01:04:00.660 -> 01:04:05.220] any people around me. So I always make the right choice to engage with
[01:04:05.220 -> 01:04:10.180] those questions. Coming on this podcast, a little bit nervous beforehand, I think
[01:04:10.180 -> 01:04:13.060] of it, I'm going to be meeting Damien, I'm going to be meeting Jake, what do I ask?
[01:04:13.060 -> 01:04:17.100] How can I help them? How can I make them smile? Instead of worrying about it, I'm
[01:04:17.100 -> 01:04:20.880] inquisitive, I'm thinking into the situation and going, okay, well, how could
[01:04:20.880 -> 01:04:26.240] I, what could I do? What could I say? It sounds ridiculous and crazy in some senses,
[01:04:26.240 -> 01:04:31.680] but those questions have changed my life. I don't think it sounds ridiculous or crazy at all.
[01:04:31.680 -> 01:04:36.480] I think it sounds really sensible. And I think that's one of the most important things is that
[01:04:36.480 -> 01:04:40.400] when we have these kinds of conversations, you know, people need to realize that if it works for
[01:04:40.400 -> 01:04:46.840] you, then it is the perfect answer. It's not about trying to find an answer that might have worked for somebody
[01:04:46.840 -> 01:04:51.880] else. I wonder whether the the stories that you wrote and left
[01:04:51.920 -> 01:04:54.360] in the city of Norwich for people to find, you know, that
[01:04:54.360 -> 01:04:56.840] was a story about a fictional character called Matt, who was
[01:04:56.840 -> 01:04:59.120] struggling with his mental health. The truth is, it was
[01:04:59.120 -> 01:05:02.760] kind of autobiographical, you were sharing your own story. Was
[01:05:02.760 -> 01:05:05.680] that all about making people smile
[01:05:05.680 -> 01:05:07.680] and impacting people in a positive way?
[01:05:07.680 -> 01:05:14.320] Yeah. And so I guess for context, so back in 2015, I wrote a short story and it was
[01:05:14.320 -> 01:05:19.560] about a guy called Matt. It was set around about Christmas time and he was going through
[01:05:19.560 -> 01:05:26.000] a difficult time in his life and in sort of magical circumstances, he meets an old lady who gives him a gift.
[01:05:26.000 -> 01:05:29.600] And the gift was the star tarot card.
[01:05:29.600 -> 01:05:34.800] I'm not at all mystical, so there's nothing on that side, but the star tarot card is the
[01:05:34.800 -> 01:05:36.600] symbol of hope.
[01:05:36.600 -> 01:05:41.760] And then as the story goes on, he makes some positive changes in his life, and then he
[01:05:41.760 -> 01:05:43.280] hands over the gift.
[01:05:43.280 -> 01:05:47.400] And that was really the key point, because I didn't want it to be a short story.
[01:05:47.800 -> 01:05:51.240] I thought this could be an experience that people go through.
[01:05:51.240 -> 01:05:54.360] So I printed a hundred of these tarot cards out.
[01:05:54.880 -> 01:05:59.480] I printed a hundred of my stories and then I put them in an envelope, which I'm waving
[01:05:59.480 -> 01:06:01.000] around for the people on the podcast.
[01:06:01.000 -> 01:06:03.560] It's kind of a red Christmasy looking one.
[01:06:04.000 -> 01:06:05.520] And I put a message on
[01:06:05.520 -> 01:06:11.360] the front saying, if you find this, please open it, please take it, please read it. And then I
[01:06:11.360 -> 01:06:16.400] randomly distributed them around the city of Norwich. So put them in parks, put them in the
[01:06:16.400 -> 01:06:22.400] city centre, things like that. My hope was one person out of that hundred might find one of
[01:06:22.400 -> 01:06:25.560] those envelopes and it'll just find them
[01:06:25.560 -> 01:06:26.560] at the right time.
[01:06:26.560 -> 01:06:28.040] It'll mean something to them.
[01:06:28.040 -> 01:06:33.840] It'll just be this positive thing they could take away, tangible item that symbolizes hope
[01:06:33.840 -> 01:06:37.940] and it's just going to be that random thing that finds them at the right point.
[01:06:37.940 -> 01:06:39.600] And it just became so much more.
[01:06:39.600 -> 01:06:46.240] Over the next five years, I wrote two more stories and I distributed thousands of envelopes. I did
[01:06:46.240 -> 01:06:50.280] them every December. Literally, my dining room was like a stationary shop through November
[01:06:50.280 -> 01:06:56.600] and December. I had hundreds of volunteers. And most importantly, I had hundreds of profound
[01:06:56.600 -> 01:07:01.880] responses from people who found one of these, and it meant something to them. It meant a
[01:07:01.880 -> 01:07:06.480] symbol of hope. It gave them that hope. I did that for five years.
[01:07:06.480 -> 01:07:09.760] That person, more than anybody, who needed that hope was me.
[01:07:09.760 -> 01:07:11.880] And the stories that I wrote were very much
[01:07:11.880 -> 01:07:13.960] a reflection of my mental state.
[01:07:13.960 -> 01:07:17.040] It was me struggling with work and my life.
[01:07:17.040 -> 01:07:19.000] One of them was about somebody had an accident.
[01:07:19.000 -> 01:07:19.760] I broke my neck.
[01:07:19.760 -> 01:07:21.880] It was about struggling with the outcomes of that.
[01:07:21.880 -> 01:07:23.560] And the other one was about somebody
[01:07:23.560 -> 01:07:31.040] struggling with where that was all going. And, um, I feel like I, I hit the point where I stopped doing my envelopes. I just
[01:07:31.040 -> 01:07:37.600] reached a point where I felt my mental state was fixed. And then literally weeks after that was
[01:07:37.600 -> 01:07:44.320] the point that I discovered that thought process. And I do feel in some way it inspired, um, it
[01:07:44.320 -> 01:07:46.000] links in and it ties together.
[01:07:46.000 -> 01:07:49.000] I think that is a really, really powerful message.
[01:07:49.000 -> 01:07:52.000] Fantastic way to end this conversation.
[01:07:52.000 -> 01:07:58.000] And really just a big thank you for, you know, not just sharing your story with us,
[01:07:58.000 -> 01:08:03.000] but also feeling the need to share it with the many people who would have seen those envelopes
[01:08:03.000 -> 01:08:05.240] around the city of Norwich, but also the people
[01:08:05.240 -> 01:08:08.000] that you share your mindset with every single day when you go out
[01:08:08.000 -> 01:08:10.720] there and you decide how can you help them? How can you make them
[01:08:10.720 -> 01:08:13.120] feel good? You know, don't ever underestimate the impact that
[01:08:13.120 -> 01:08:13.840] will have on people.
[01:08:13.920 -> 01:08:16.520] Thank you both for everything you do in the podcast. That was
[01:08:16.520 -> 01:08:17.440] brilliant. Love it.
[01:08:19.280 -> 01:08:22.360] Well, as always, I'd love to know what you think about this
[01:08:22.360 -> 01:08:25.600] episode. All I ask you to do is just share it.
[01:08:25.600 -> 01:08:27.600] I would love you just to stick it on your Instagram,
[01:08:27.600 -> 01:08:30.300] stick it on your work WhatsApp group,
[01:08:30.300 -> 01:08:32.100] just message it to one person.
[01:08:32.100 -> 01:08:34.400] You know, I was chatting to someone just before I came
[01:08:34.400 -> 01:08:37.500] and recorded these little intros and outros,
[01:08:37.500 -> 01:08:39.100] and they're really struggling at the moment.
[01:08:39.100 -> 01:08:40.000] And they said, you know,
[01:08:40.000 -> 01:08:42.800] listening to the content here in your podcast
[01:08:42.800 -> 01:08:49.400] has really helped them through a difficult time with their health. And if you know someone that is struggling and you're thinking, what
[01:08:49.400 -> 01:08:53.560] can I do? Just ping them the link to the podcast and just say to them, look, there might just
[01:08:53.560 -> 01:08:56.880] be something among all of these guests and all of this thinking that really speaks to
[01:08:56.880 -> 01:09:02.280] you and resonates with you. So to pass it on is to lead because being a true leader
[01:09:02.280 -> 01:09:05.040] is giving to other people. So I'd love you to do that.
[01:09:05.040 -> 01:09:08.000] Please spread the learnings you're taking from this series.
[01:09:08.000 -> 01:09:11.000] Remember for you though, there is no secret, right?
[01:09:11.000 -> 01:09:12.180] It's all there for you.
[01:09:12.180 -> 01:09:14.660] Just chase those world-class basics.
[01:09:14.660 -> 01:09:16.520] Don't get high on your own supply.
[01:09:16.520 -> 01:09:18.700] Remain humble, remain curious,
[01:09:18.700 -> 01:09:21.380] remain empathetic and understanding.
[01:09:21.380 -> 01:09:23.000] And we'll see you very soon
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