Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:10:17 GMT
Duration:
1:00:28
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Maro Itoje is a rugby union player, currently playing for Saracens and the England national team. Having joined Saracens at 16 years old, Maro shares how the kindness, manners and dedication of the senior players has shaped him. He discusses how his parents never pushed him to focus on rugby, so all of his motivation was internal.
Maro claims to not be the most talented player, rather his skillset is based on output and how hard he can work. This allowed him to take ownership of his commitments and efforts. Maro shares how rugby will never be his “true identity”, as it’s crucial for him to have varied interests and hobbies outside of rugby. He is currently studying for his Master of Business Administration at University of Warwick.
In this episode they discuss authenticity, what it means to be a cultural architect and the role trash talk plays in his life.
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**Summary of the Podcast Episode with Maro Itoje**
In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, Maro Itoje, a rugby union player for Saracens and the England national team, discusses authenticity, cultural architecture, and the role of trash talk in his life.
**Key Points:**
- Itoje defines high performance as the accumulated amount of effective collisions or involvements in a game over an 80-minute window.
- He emphasizes the importance of self-motivation and discipline in his success, attributing it to his upbringing and the values instilled in him by his Nigerian heritage.
- Itoje highlights the significance of respect and kindness in the Saracens environment, which he encountered as a young player, shaping his growth and development.
- He believes that rugby will never be his true identity, as he values having varied interests and hobbies outside of the sport.
- Itoje stresses the importance of focus and perspective in maintaining a high level of performance, regardless of external factors or fluctuations in success.
- He describes the physicality and intensity of the senior team environment at Saracens, which demanded a high level of grit and determination from him as a young player.
- Itoje shares an anecdote about a strongman fitness circuit where he struggled to push a prowler, prompting him to realize the need for improvement and enhance his physical strength.
- He emphasizes the importance of embracing challenges and using them as opportunities for growth and development.
- Itoje discusses the role of trash talk in his game, viewing it as a way to engage with opponents and maintain a competitive edge.
- He believes that trash talk should be respectful and not cross the line into personal attacks or insults.
- Itoje acknowledges that trash talk can sometimes be misinterpreted or taken out of context, leading to misunderstandings or conflicts.
- He emphasizes the need for self-awareness and emotional intelligence in engaging in trash talk, ensuring that it remains a positive and motivating factor rather than a source of negativity or conflict.
**Overall Message:**
Maro Itoje embodies the mindset of an elite performer, emphasizing the importance of self-motivation, discipline, focus, and a well-rounded approach to life. He encourages athletes to embrace challenges, maintain a positive attitude, and engage in respectful trash talk as a means of enhancing performance and maintaining a competitive edge.
# Podcast Episode Summary: Maro Itoje on Authenticity, Cultural Architecture, and Trash Talk
**Key Points:**
1. **Authenticity and Cultural Architecture:**
- Maro Itoje emphasizes the importance of authenticity and being a cultural architect.
- He believes in leading by example and connecting with teammates through genuine actions rather than loud speeches.
2. **Trash Talk:**
- Itoje acknowledges his reputation as a trash talker on the field.
- He explains that his trash-talking is primarily aimed at energizing himself and his team, rather than affecting opponents.
- He sees it as a way to create a competitive edge and maintain focus during intense matches.
3. **The Shit That No One Ever Sees (TSSPDS):**
- Itoje discusses the concept of TSSPDS, which refers to the small, often unnoticed actions that contribute to a team's success.
- He emphasizes the significance of these seemingly insignificant efforts in creating a winning environment.
4. **Democratic Communication:**
- Itoje highlights the importance of a low-key, practical, and democratic communication style in leadership.
- He believes that effective leaders don't need to be the loudest or most extroverted, but rather those who can connect with others through quiet gestures, eye contact, and physical contact.
5. **Strong Convictions and the Courage to Stand Apart:**
- Itoje emphasizes the need for leaders to have strong convictions and the courage to stand apart.
- He shares his views on social and political issues, highlighting the importance of principled stances even when they may be unpopular.
6. **Book Clubs and Philosophy Groups:**
- Itoje discusses the book clubs and philosophy groups at Saracens, where players engage in discussions and debates on various topics.
- He believes these activities foster different perspectives and help teammates understand each other better.
7. **Non-Negotiables:**
- Itoje defines his non-negotiables as honesty, respect, and punctuality.
- He emphasizes the importance of these qualities in building positive relationships and maintaining a high-performance culture.
8. **Weakness and Strength:**
- Itoje identifies his independence as both a strength and a weakness.
- He acknowledges that while it allows him to be self-reliant and manage tasks effectively, it can also hinder his ability to open up to others and seek help when needed.
9. **Sacrifices and Hidden Costs:**
- Itoje reflects on the sacrifices he has made as a professional rugby player.
- He mentions missing important personal events and dealing with the disjointed nature of his lifestyle due to frequent travel and camps.
- He also acknowledges the challenges of dealing with public perception and the pressure to conform to certain expectations.
10. **Message for Living a High-Performance Life:**
- Itoje emphasizes the importance of hard work and fulfillment as the foundation for a high-performance life.
- He believes that by living a life of hard work and pursuing meaningful goals, individuals can achieve high performance and personal happiness.
**Overall Message:**
Maro Itoje's interview highlights the significance of authenticity, cultural architecture, and strong leadership in achieving high performance. He emphasizes the importance of genuine actions, effective communication, and principled stances. Itoje also reflects on the sacrifices and challenges that come with a high-performance lifestyle, while emphasizing the fulfillment and happiness that can be achieved through hard work and dedication.
Certainly, here's a detailed summary of the podcast episode:
**Summary of the Podcast Episode**
In this captivating podcast episode, Maro Itoje, a renowned rugby union player, shares his inspiring journey and offers valuable insights on personal growth, authenticity, and high performance.
**Maro's Rugby Journey:**
- Maro Itoje joined Saracens at the young age of 16, where he was greatly influenced by the kindness, manners, and dedication of the senior players.
- His motivation stemmed from within, as his parents never pressured him to focus solely on rugby.
- Maro emphasizes that rugby is not his "true identity," highlighting the importance of pursuing varied interests and hobbies outside of sports.
- Currently, he is pursuing a Master of Business Administration degree at the University of Warwick, demonstrating his commitment to continuous learning.
**Authenticity and Cultural Architecture:**
- Maro discusses the concept of authenticity, emphasizing the importance of being true to oneself and staying grounded.
- He believes in the power of cultural architecture, which involves creating a positive and supportive environment that enables individuals to thrive.
- Trash talk, a common element in rugby, is seen by Maro as a way to challenge and motivate himself and his teammates.
**Overcoming Challenges:**
- Maro candidly shares that he has experienced dark times in his life, including the diagnosis of illnesses among his loved ones.
- During these challenging periods, he discovered the benefits of healthy eating, yoga, meditation, and the transformative power of inspirational people.
- He believes that people admire those who have faced adversity and overcome challenges, rather than those who have had an easy path.
**Key Takeaways:**
- The importance of internal motivation and taking ownership of one's commitments and efforts.
- Pursuing a balanced life with varied interests and hobbies outside of one's primary profession.
- The power of cultural architecture in creating a positive and supportive environment for growth.
- The value of authenticity, staying true to oneself, and challenging oneself to achieve high performance.
- The ability to overcome adversity and learn from challenging experiences.
Maro Itoje's journey and insights provide valuable lessons for anyone seeking to achieve high performance in their personal and professional lives. The episode is engaging, informative, and filled with practical wisdom.
[00:00.000 -> 00:06.600] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and this is High Performance, the podcast that shows you it's
[00:06.600 -> 00:12.000] within. Your ambitions, your dreams, your purpose, it's all there. We just unlock it
[00:12.000 -> 00:16.940] by taking the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers and turn them into your
[00:16.940 -> 00:21.960] life lessons. So right now, allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes to speak to one of
[00:21.960 -> 00:26.520] the most impressive rugby players in the world.
[00:26.520 -> 00:34.360] My skill set is pretty much based on output. It's based on how hard I can work and the
[00:34.360 -> 00:40.340] effectiveness of those collisions or of those involvements in a game and the accumulated
[00:40.340 -> 00:46.000] amount of those across an 80 minute window. If I was gonna succeed in this it
[00:46.000 -> 00:51.360] had to come from me. It wasn't me relying on anyone else you know it was me having
[00:51.360 -> 00:55.840] to wake up to catch the train to catch the bus to get to training. It just gave
[00:55.840 -> 01:09.080] me that self motivation. The way they viewed me was never based on how good or bad I was at rugby. So it wasn't necessarily a part of my self-worth
[01:10.040 -> 01:12.960] whether I was good at rugby or whether I was bad at rugby.
[01:12.960 -> 01:17.720] So in a way, it gives a certain sense of freedom as well
[01:17.720 -> 01:22.240] because I think when you wholly define your life
[01:22.240 -> 01:26.840] through what you do, if that is then taken away from you,
[01:26.840 -> 01:31.400] it then becomes difficult.
[01:31.400 -> 01:36.120] So today we welcome Maro Itoji to the High Performance Podcast, someone who epitomises
[01:36.120 -> 01:37.720] an elite mindset in rugby.
[01:37.720 -> 01:41.800] In fact, stay where you are because as soon as this episode begins, he gives us an amazing
[01:41.800 -> 01:42.960] definition of high performance.
[01:42.960 -> 01:47.040] You know that first question we always ask? What does high performance mean to you? I know
[01:47.040 -> 01:50.500] we've pretty much had a different answer from every guest but we've certainly not
[01:50.500 -> 01:54.580] even had an answer that comes close to the kind of approach that Marrow takes.
[01:54.580 -> 01:59.620] And then he talks about his discipline as a young lad growing up and I think
[01:59.620 -> 02:02.940] where he's really humble is he doesn't say that he's a you know a flair player
[02:02.940 -> 02:07.760] he's not a Lionel Messi he doesn't see himself as a superstar rugby player that uses his
[02:07.760 -> 02:13.120] natural ability to change the game he sees himself as a grafter a really hard
[02:13.120 -> 02:16.320] worker and I think what's really special there is that we should all have that
[02:16.320 -> 02:19.400] view of ourselves as soon as we think that we're special or as soon as we
[02:19.400 -> 02:24.240] think that our natural talent or that our intuition or that our emotional
[02:24.240 -> 02:26.960] intelligence will see us past a problem,
[02:26.960 -> 02:28.640] then I think we stop working.
[02:28.640 -> 02:31.000] And I think we may well still have all those things
[02:31.000 -> 02:32.360] which will help, and there's no doubt
[02:32.360 -> 02:34.200] that Marrow is not doing himself justice
[02:34.200 -> 02:37.280] and he is an incredibly talented natural athlete,
[02:37.280 -> 02:40.040] but the fact that he thinks that his secret source
[02:40.040 -> 02:43.080] is hard work is really powerful.
[02:43.080 -> 02:45.780] So let's get to it then. A really fascinating conversation
[02:45.780 -> 02:48.020] with an amazing rugby player.
[02:48.020 -> 02:51.480] As we welcome England and Saracen's forward,
[02:51.480 -> 02:54.900] Mauro Itoji to the High Performance Podcast.
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[03:35.880 -> 03:41.040] So does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
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[03:42.440 -> 03:44.640] Yes, yes it does.
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[05:43.760 -> 05:47.520] Welcome to High Performance. Thank you. What is your definition of high
[05:47.520 -> 05:54.920] performance? So, you know, I've listened to your guys' podcasts, I've been
[05:54.920 -> 05:58.800] listening for a number of years and obviously this is the first question
[05:58.800 -> 06:03.120] that you guys always open up with. So in preparation for this I was thinking what
[06:03.120 -> 06:12.400] would my definition of high performance be? And I don't have a too fancy definition to be honest, but I do think there's
[06:12.400 -> 06:17.880] a distinction between high performance and elite performance. I think high performance
[06:17.880 -> 06:25.880] is relative, I think it's perhaps subjective to each individual.
[06:25.880 -> 06:30.140] You know, what's high performance for you will be different to what's high performance
[06:30.140 -> 06:34.720] for me, and so on and so forth.
[06:34.720 -> 06:43.760] However, I think elite performance is performing at the very top level in your given field,
[06:43.760 -> 06:45.900] whatever field that may be.
[06:45.900 -> 06:49.540] See I think that's a really interesting definition and by the way this is maybe
[06:49.540 -> 06:55.580] episode 170 whatever, you're the first person that has created that
[06:55.580 -> 06:58.900] differentiation between high performance and elite performance and I'm pleased
[06:58.900 -> 07:02.800] you have because often I think people are put off almost by the title of our
[07:02.800 -> 07:07.520] podcast because they assume high performance is for someone else not for them and we try and drill home the
[07:07.520 -> 07:11.680] message that it's your version of high performance exactly as you say. Yet elite
[07:11.680 -> 07:15.760] performance is about comparing yourself to others it's about being in the
[07:15.760 -> 07:20.560] company of others it's about where you sit in that list of top performers. So
[07:20.560 -> 07:27.640] how do you ensure that you're an elite performer, not a high performer? I guess there's several aspects to that.
[07:27.640 -> 07:32.880] I think the first is being honest with yourself.
[07:32.880 -> 07:38.960] After you play, I'm a rugby player so I use rugby references, and after you've played
[07:38.960 -> 07:45.360] a number of years at a certain level, you kind of get a gauge of your body, you get a gauge of
[07:45.360 -> 07:50.520] how you're performing and I like to think, other people may disagree,
[07:50.520 -> 07:55.920] but I like to think that I have a relatively good gauge of how I'm
[07:55.920 -> 08:00.960] performing, how well I'm performing and when I'm off that, how
[08:00.960 -> 08:06.280] that looks like, how it feels. So in order to almost hopefully stay at
[08:06.280 -> 08:13.440] an elite level I think requires a sincere amount of honesty. Honesty and
[08:13.440 -> 08:19.600] you know, you need to have a look at yourself and be like, okay where am I, where do I
[08:19.600 -> 08:26.960] want to get to, how do I need to improve. I guess what's underpinning all of that is a general sense of
[08:28.160 -> 08:35.520] always looking to improve, always looking to keep the ball moving. I think if you stay idle for
[08:35.520 -> 08:42.880] too long or rest on your laurels in any given respect, then that is probably the time where
[08:42.880 -> 08:45.120] you start to go downhill.
[08:45.120 -> 08:50.080] See what you're describing there is the classic case of the Dunning-Kruger law
[08:50.080 -> 08:55.760] aren't you? But so the Dunning-Kruger law was named after two guys, David Dunning
[08:55.760 -> 08:59.960] and Justin Kruger that said that if you're good at something you have the
[08:59.960 -> 09:03.440] self-awareness to know why you got it equally if you're not good at something
[09:03.440 -> 09:07.400] you lack self-awareness to know what are the areas you need to
[09:07.400 -> 09:12.720] improve in. So I'm interested in how you've learned to do that kind of
[09:12.720 -> 09:17.760] self-analysis and to raise your levels of self-awareness to constantly keep
[09:17.760 -> 09:23.320] improving or picking up little areas that you can get better at. Yeah, I'm by
[09:23.320 -> 09:30.400] no means an expert of this, I don't want to sound as if I've cracked the code, but I think part of
[09:30.400 -> 09:36.520] that is innate, I think a part of it is just how my psychological makeup
[09:36.520 -> 09:44.480] is. I think I'm quite receptive to people questioning me or criticizing me in
[09:44.480 -> 09:46.560] certain respects, especially when it's
[09:46.560 -> 09:52.600] performance related. The other aspect of it is also the nature of perhaps the
[09:52.600 -> 09:57.760] environments that I was raised in. When I say raised, I'm talking about
[09:57.760 -> 10:03.520] from a sporting point of view. I grew up in, I've been at Saracen
[10:03.520 -> 10:07.840] since the age of 14, that's where I kind of had my formative
[10:07.840 -> 10:16.160] years with regards to performance and the environment there is very much about getting
[10:16.160 -> 10:21.800] better, it's very much about people telling you when you're wrong, praising you when you're
[10:21.800 -> 10:29.000] right, they're very good at that as well, but it's very much about trying to get better trying to exceed in you know and
[10:29.000 -> 10:36.000] achieve that common goal so I guess it's a mixture of nature and nurture. Can we
[10:36.000 -> 10:40.260] touch a bit more on the nurture? I'd love to know what was in the upbringing at
[10:40.260 -> 10:46.560] home that not only led you towards playing rugby, which was a sport that you hadn't played
[10:46.560 -> 10:51.320] before you finally got the opportunity, but then your dogged determination to make a success
[10:51.320 -> 10:57.660] out of it. And I know that you hold your Nigerian values and roots very close and I wonder to
[10:57.660 -> 11:00.960] what extent do you carry that with you in your career and how that's helped you?
[11:00.960 -> 11:09.300] Well, I think there's several aspects to that question. I think the first part which I'll touch on is I'm very very proud of
[11:09.300 -> 11:17.240] my Nigerian heritage. It's an essential part of who I am. It's
[11:17.240 -> 11:23.320] formed the lens in which I see the world. It's shaped me. I can't
[11:23.320 -> 11:30.020] even describe how much it's shaped me. Can you expand on what and why? Yeah, I grew up in North London, I've never lived in
[11:30.020 -> 11:34.300] Nigeria, I've been to Nigeria several times on holiday and vacation but I've
[11:34.300 -> 11:40.420] never lived there and why has it shaped me in such a way? My parents were born in
[11:40.420 -> 11:45.920] Nigeria, both of them, they both spent some of their schooling abroad, etc. but they
[11:45.920 -> 11:54.320] were firmly brought up and bred in Nigeria. And I always describe my house or my parents'
[11:54.320 -> 12:02.120] house as, it was like living in Lagos but in London, because the house was very Nigerian
[12:02.120 -> 12:09.000] in terms of culture, in terms of values, in terms of the food we ate,
[12:09.000 -> 12:12.000] in terms of the people coming in and out of the house.
[12:12.000 -> 12:16.000] But I step outside the house, then I'm in North London.
[12:16.000 -> 12:26.500] Being Nigerian or being raised in the way in which I was raised has just formed my viewpoint on the world. It's the first
[12:26.500 -> 12:32.320] reference I had to anything else and everything else has been affected by
[12:32.320 -> 12:37.920] that. I guess in terms of what that actually looks like, I guess Nigerians
[12:37.920 -> 12:48.240] they hold respect in high regard. My parents never tolerated any form of disrespect. Even to this day, there's
[12:48.240 -> 12:54.120] certain things I wouldn't say in and around my parents because they hold respect to such
[12:54.120 -> 12:55.120] a high...
[12:55.120 -> 12:56.840] Why bad language and things like that?
[12:56.840 -> 13:06.040] So I try not to use profanity for different reasons, for religious reasons, but if I was to use it
[13:06.040 -> 13:10.620] in front of them it'll feel weird, it'll just feel like odd. So I'll give you an
[13:10.620 -> 13:16.920] example, so in Western culture, in British culture, it's not
[13:16.920 -> 13:22.800] unusual to call, I guess, your auntie by her first name, by Jane or whatever,
[13:22.800 -> 13:27.040] whereas if I called my auntie, like by her first name,
[13:27.040 -> 13:32.960] I have an auntie Stella, if I called her Stella, it's like I'm insulting her. It's a massive lack
[13:32.960 -> 13:40.240] of respect I'm showing her because it's just like the hierarchical nature of Nigerian families. But
[13:40.240 -> 13:45.880] even besides respect, there's, you know, in terms of family values, in terms of
[13:45.880 -> 13:53.280] hard work, in terms of community, there's so many aspects to it.
[13:53.280 -> 13:59.040] How much of that you've described Saracens as your home, did you see a
[13:59.040 -> 14:15.240] values match there from what you're describing? So I remember the first time I went into Saracens, or the senior environment, and I was 16 years old or so and they called me up to take part in the first team training.
[14:15.240 -> 14:25.280] I was nervous but incredibly excited and all these players I've seen on TV, I was now going to be in the changing room with them and train with them.
[14:25.280 -> 14:31.280] So I was super excited but at the same time incredibly anxious and nervous.
[14:31.280 -> 14:39.280] And I walked into the little corridor and the first person I saw was a scrum half called Neil de Kock.
[14:39.280 -> 14:42.280] And he was like, hello, how are you doing? Shook my hand straight away.
[14:42.280 -> 14:46.720] I was like, wow, this is one of the most experienced players on the team and he's
[14:47.280 -> 14:49.280] embracing me so warmly
[14:49.320 -> 14:51.320] and it really took me aback.
[14:51.840 -> 14:59.200] Then we had players there like John Smitt who was Springboks captain, World Cup winner, etc. doing the exact same.
[15:00.920 -> 15:09.360] So I was interacting with all these players and they were treating me with so much respect and they were so kind to me.
[15:09.360 -> 15:14.560] Someone that they don't know, just some young kid from the academy.
[15:14.560 -> 15:23.440] And as you know there's so many young kids in the academy that it's hard to always show these guys the respect.
[15:23.440 -> 15:26.560] Or just be consistent with it anyway, but
[15:26.560 -> 15:32.720] they're all embracing me so warmly. For me, it was like the perfect place to grow, it
[15:32.720 -> 15:40.840] was a perfect place for me to try and learn and like expand my skills in that respect.
[15:40.840 -> 15:45.560] Can you share with our listeners what the respect and the values and the discipline
[15:45.560 -> 15:51.920] that you've just talked about does for you as an athlete? Because I think that we still
[15:51.920 -> 15:58.800] sometimes have a dissonance here where it's like, I'm going to be really respectful, but
[15:58.800 -> 16:02.720] that's got nothing to do with performing at an elite level. And then we see other people
[16:02.720 -> 16:07.800] performing at an elite level who we know are not disciplined and are not respectful and we kind of assume that you
[16:07.800 -> 16:12.800] don't need them both but I get the sense that the discipline element is a really important
[16:12.800 -> 16:15.160] one for the performance element for you.
[16:15.160 -> 16:30.320] Yeah, I'm not one of those players who I guess is, I don't know if any of you see me play rugby, but I'm not necessarily the most skilful player on the field.
[16:30.320 -> 16:41.600] I'm not one of those players who can kick the ball 70 yards or spin off my left, off my right, 30-meter passes.
[16:41.600 -> 16:45.640] I don't perhaps have that depth touch that some players are
[16:45.640 -> 16:52.680] graced with. My skill set is pretty much based on output, it's based on
[16:52.680 -> 16:58.120] how hard I can work and the effectiveness of those collisions or of
[16:58.120 -> 17:02.760] those involvements in a game and the accumulated amount of those across a
[17:02.760 -> 17:27.760] 80-minute window. And as you kind of alluded to before, rugby is not a sport that I grew up in, it's not a sport that I, when I was 1 to 11, dreamed of playing. I guess what discipline gave me was the fact that
[17:28.480 -> 17:35.040] I needed to be consistent with it, I needed to work hard with it and even backtracking a little
[17:35.040 -> 17:47.760] bit. My upbringing was very disciplined in terms of how we were in our family house, how my parents were with education, with studying, but they
[17:47.760 -> 17:53.360] were, in terms of sport, they weren't disciplined at all. They were like, oh yeah, go exercise, but
[17:54.000 -> 18:00.480] in my early years, didn't really care what that looked like or what that was. So,
[18:01.600 -> 18:10.000] when I first started getting into rugby, rugby with Nigerians is not really a thing that you don't really connect.
[18:10.000 -> 18:15.000] So when I first started getting into rugby, it was seen as a potential distraction.
[18:15.000 -> 18:21.000] I remember if my dad was here, he would always tell the story, he loves telling this story, so I'll tell it for him.
[18:21.000 -> 18:26.480] He told this story that my housemaster called him up and he was like,
[18:27.120 -> 18:34.000] oh your son's very good at rugby, then he was a little bit worried that rugby may be a distraction
[18:34.000 -> 18:41.520] and he called me and was like, if the grades drop, the rugby stops. But anyway, the point I'm trying
[18:41.520 -> 18:46.680] to make with that is the discipline that I had through
[18:46.680 -> 18:53.200] other aspects of my life, I was then able to transfer that to rugby and how I trained,
[18:53.200 -> 18:57.680] you know, waking up at a certain time, making sure I was eating the right things.
[18:57.680 -> 19:01.560] And that was all pretty much self-driven because my parents didn't care.
[19:01.560 -> 19:07.080] See, because that's a really fascinating area, I'd just like to pause and explore deeper
[19:07.080 -> 19:10.600] because we have lots of parents that listen to this
[19:10.600 -> 19:13.280] who maybe have aspirations for their children,
[19:13.280 -> 19:17.040] that may be the ones that are driving them to practice,
[19:17.040 -> 19:19.560] urging them to go out and do the extras
[19:19.560 -> 19:21.680] and things like that, and yet your parents
[19:21.680 -> 19:23.760] were almost hands off and just gave you freedom
[19:23.760 -> 19:26.960] to, if you want to do it, that's fine fine as long as it doesn't affect your schoolwork.
[19:26.960 -> 19:32.920] What do you think that gave you in terms of as an advantage as a young athlete?
[19:32.920 -> 19:38.600] I think for me it just made it so that if I was gonna succeed in this it had to
[19:38.600 -> 19:43.800] come from me. It wasn't me relying on anyone else you know it was me having to
[19:43.800 -> 19:50.280] wake up to catch the train to catch the bus to get to training. It was me having to wake up to catch the train, to catch the bus to get to training. It was me having to tell
[19:50.280 -> 19:56.040] my parents that, oh can I get some money to get some food for this, or it was
[19:56.040 -> 20:07.640] me having to organize that. And it just gave me that self-motivation. And also, and this is also another interesting piece with
[20:07.640 -> 20:14.280] regards to identity, my parents, the way they viewed me was never based on how
[20:14.280 -> 20:21.960] good or bad I was at rugby. So it wasn't necessarily a part of my self-worth
[20:21.960 -> 20:26.180] whether I was good at rugby, whether I was bad at rugby. So in a
[20:26.180 -> 20:32.780] way it gives a certain sense of freedom as well, because for me personally it
[20:32.780 -> 20:38.340] gave me the freedom and probably the encouragement to explore different
[20:38.340 -> 20:44.060] aspects of my life, which made it so that rugby to this day probably not will
[20:44.060 -> 20:46.560] never be my full identity.
[20:46.560 -> 20:47.400] I love that.
[20:47.400 -> 20:49.400] I mean, there's a real echo there, as you say in it,
[20:49.400 -> 20:54.040] about, we interviewed Ian Thorpe, the legendary swimmer,
[20:54.040 -> 20:55.800] and he was talking about the importance
[20:55.800 -> 20:59.040] of early ownership in his journey.
[20:59.040 -> 21:01.440] His dad said to him, if you commit to swim,
[21:01.440 -> 21:02.720] you have to do it for the season,
[21:02.720 -> 21:04.580] but after that, it's up to you.
[21:04.580 -> 21:06.080] But his other rule was, you have to wake me up the season, but after that, it's up to you. But his other rule was,
[21:06.080 -> 21:08.360] you have to wake me up to take you swimming.
[21:08.360 -> 21:09.440] I'll never wake you up.
[21:09.440 -> 21:12.200] So he put the responsibility on him
[21:12.200 -> 21:14.960] to get up in the morning, set his alarm, get himself ready.
[21:14.960 -> 21:17.040] And there's lots of research on this,
[21:17.040 -> 21:19.400] that early ownership of an athlete
[21:19.400 -> 21:22.080] actually helps them thrive over a longer term.
[21:22.080 -> 21:23.800] But I think the stuff you talk about there,
[21:23.800 -> 21:28.280] about the identity, allows you to, if you'd wanted to walk away from rugby, you
[21:28.280 -> 21:32.880] were never Maro the Saracens player, you were Maro the son, the student, the guy
[21:32.880 -> 21:37.440] that's got an interest in Nigerian art or any of those other things. So how
[21:37.440 -> 21:41.520] would your parents describe you then? What's the kind of identity that you
[21:41.520 -> 21:45.580] have at home? I'm not too sure how they would describe me. The
[21:45.580 -> 21:50.720] way I like to describe myself is like a multifaceted individual who has
[21:50.720 -> 21:58.200] interests in a whole range of different things. I think about it a lot
[21:58.200 -> 22:14.000] because it's also linked into the other end of the scale when it comes to like retirement and stuff. And you know, I think when you wholly define your life
[22:14.000 -> 22:20.440] through what you do, if that is then taken away from you, it then becomes
[22:20.440 -> 22:31.360] difficult. And I've always been of the opinion that the other interests I have help with what I do with rugby. I remember when I was doing
[22:31.360 -> 22:37.480] my undergrad degree, I'll go into uni and meet a whole load of
[22:37.480 -> 22:41.880] people who have no idea about rugby and have no interest. And I'll be
[22:41.880 -> 22:46.400] studying blah blah blah, but then when I go back to
[22:46.400 -> 22:50.000] training that's the fun part, that's the part that's
[22:50.000 -> 22:54.320] interesting, that's the part that's fun and it made me value the time I had
[22:54.320 -> 22:59.360] training even more. So again that's an interesting area that I know
[22:59.360 -> 23:03.800] you've spoke a lot Jake about your work in football that it's often used as a
[23:03.800 -> 23:08.400] stick to beat footballers with that if they have interest in businesses or they're doing
[23:08.400 -> 23:12.320] other studies like when they underperform on the field so first
[23:12.320 -> 23:16.960] thing... This is what frustrates me right if you're a footballer and you talk
[23:16.960 -> 23:21.880] about staying home playing PlayStation or whatever then no one criticizes it
[23:21.880 -> 23:28.160] we had Hector Bearing on the podcast the former Arsenal player and you know, as soon as he showed an interest in fashion or an
[23:28.160 -> 23:32.480] interest in photography, and we see it now with modern players who will go to
[23:32.480 -> 23:36.160] you know the fashion show in Italy or something, suddenly if they don't perform
[23:36.160 -> 23:39.960] on the pitch, the issue is that they're more interested in fashion and it's, we
[23:39.960 -> 23:44.760] live in this world where we want to put people in a box and if you're, if you're
[23:44.760 -> 23:47.800] the sort of football that spends hours and hours playing on a computer game then
[23:47.800 -> 23:50.680] we're cool with that because for whatever reason we think that's alright
[23:50.680 -> 23:54.000] but as soon as you show a real passion for something other than football we
[23:54.000 -> 23:58.120] think it's detrimental to the game. I'd love to get your thoughts on this.
[23:58.120 -> 24:03.320] I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying and to a
[24:03.320 -> 24:07.440] lesser extent perhaps I think I potentially
[24:07.440 -> 24:15.560] have experienced some of that. What I think, because on the flip side of that also, sometimes
[24:15.560 -> 24:23.600] it's the truth, sometimes players or people do get distracted by X, Y or Z so there's
[24:23.600 -> 24:25.440] the balance that you need to find and the
[24:25.440 -> 24:30.680] way I've always tried to approach it is that you have to keep the main thing the
[24:30.680 -> 24:35.640] main thing. Whilst I'm playing rugby, you know, rugby will always be the focus. Then
[24:35.640 -> 24:40.400] everything else will have to fit around rugby. I think you have to keep
[24:40.400 -> 24:46.280] your focus on the thing that is important to you and you can't lose that
[24:46.280 -> 24:52.440] focus, lose that intent. However, that being said, when I'm at club, we train three days
[24:52.440 -> 24:58.400] a week with the game on the weekend, then those training days, most of those days I'm
[24:58.400 -> 25:03.320] finished in around three o'clock and there's only so much recovery you can do, there's
[25:03.320 -> 25:10.400] only so much analysis you can do. So the point I'm trying to make, there's loads of time in the week
[25:10.400 -> 25:20.200] if you choose to use your week wisely to pursue any interests or passions outside of your
[25:20.200 -> 25:21.200] sport.
[25:21.200 -> 25:27.080] Our take on this, right, is that you're a human being that plays rugby. You're not a rugby player, right?
[25:27.080 -> 25:31.000] And there's a really interesting book by Sam Harris called The Captain Class, where he
[25:31.000 -> 25:35.200] basically concludes that a team is not about a star player or even about a coach.
[25:35.200 -> 25:36.440] It's about the leadership in the team.
[25:36.440 -> 25:38.280] It's about the captain.
[25:38.280 -> 25:42.000] And there are seven traits of being an elite captain.
[25:42.000 -> 25:48.360] And you know, elite is a word that you used right at the start of this podcast. We thought it'd be interesting to explore the seven traits that he talks
[25:48.360 -> 25:51.480] about in his book and just get your thoughts on them because I think all of them will resonate.
[25:51.480 -> 25:57.640] Now can I just say that when I interviewed Sam when he did his book it came out in 2016
[25:57.640 -> 26:04.320] in the conversation he cited you as a great example of one of these leaders. He talks
[26:04.320 -> 26:05.460] about the captain class, we
[26:05.460 -> 26:09.200] talk about them as the cultural architects, the guys that don't
[26:09.200 -> 26:12.960] necessarily have to have the title but they set the tone for the culture and he
[26:12.960 -> 26:19.000] was really clear that he saw you as a perfect epitome of it. So the pressure's on in terms of the answers.
[26:19.000 -> 26:22.000] We're either going to prove him wrong or prove him right in the next 20 minutes.
[26:22.000 -> 26:24.000] He's very kind.
[26:24.000 -> 26:28.320] And I think what we really want from this is a conversation about, obviously we know
[26:28.320 -> 26:32.800] it's centered around rugby, but it's really about the mindsets that people can take into
[26:32.800 -> 26:36.720] their everyday lives, you know, because effectively we're all playing a game, yours is rugby,
[26:36.720 -> 26:40.840] for other people it's a different element, but we're all doing the same thing. So the
[26:40.840 -> 26:45.680] first trait is extreme doggedness and focus when it comes to competition.
[26:45.680 -> 26:50.960] I'd love to know how you develop that grit and silence the noise around you.
[26:50.960 -> 26:56.120] Again it goes back to focus, you know, you just need to focus on what's
[26:56.120 -> 27:02.480] important. If you've played at a given level over a certain period of time, you
[27:02.480 -> 27:05.240] know, you go through highs and lows and
[27:05.240 -> 27:11.560] often is never as good as it seems and is never as bad as it seems depending on
[27:11.560 -> 27:16.000] where you are on the cycle. I think it's important to keep that
[27:16.000 -> 27:20.000] perspective because when you go through it and when you're in it, it feels like
[27:20.000 -> 27:27.600] either it's the worst thing that could possibly happen or you're Superman and no one can touch you.
[27:27.600 -> 27:29.600] It's never that.
[27:29.600 -> 27:37.000] So I think it's always good to keep that perspective and maintain the focus of where you want to go.
[27:37.000 -> 27:47.680] And with this, what I found helpful with this especially is the people that you have around you. If you have, whether it's support staff,
[27:47.680 -> 27:56.880] teammates, coaches that kind of ebb and flow with the highs and lows of sport, then it's
[27:56.880 -> 28:10.640] much harder. If you have people who are also of a similar mindset of want to keep the focus, want to keep pushing, not necessarily settled with the success but also keep perspective when you go
[28:10.640 -> 28:15.840] through tough moments and allows you to maintain the focus and allows you to
[28:15.840 -> 28:21.960] keep perspective and you know I think it just allows you to keep that like
[28:21.960 -> 28:26.480] doggedness when it's going well but also when it's not going
[28:26.480 -> 28:31.160] well it probably helps you to keep that doggedness as well because you know you
[28:31.160 -> 28:34.240] have to keep on going in order to get it right.
[28:34.240 -> 28:38.560] So tell us you know when you describe that experience of going as a 16 year
[28:38.560 -> 28:43.840] old boy into the first team environment or 17 year old boy what kind of things
[28:43.840 -> 28:51.000] were you learning about doggedness and grit that maybe you hadn't had from your school boy rugby at that stage?
[28:51.000 -> 28:56.040] The first impression was just the physicality of it. You know I was a 16
[28:56.040 -> 29:01.200] year old playing with men, fully formed men and you know I go and you know at
[29:01.200 -> 29:05.600] school as you probably could imagine I was amongst the tallest, amongst
[29:05.600 -> 29:08.000] the strongest, etc, etc.
[29:08.000 -> 29:12.080] And I went into a environment where probably the nines could beat me up if they wanted
[29:12.080 -> 29:13.800] to, the scrub halves.
[29:13.800 -> 29:15.640] So it was very different.
[29:15.640 -> 29:22.920] And being the position I am, that's the bit that you need to get pretty quickly, especially
[29:22.920 -> 29:26.520] if you want to accelerate your career as quick as possible.
[29:26.520 -> 29:31.880] You need to be able to be tough, you need to have that grit, have that fight within
[29:31.880 -> 29:40.600] you. At Saracen especially, we spoke a lot about effort errors, like effort errors aren't
[29:40.600 -> 29:46.560] acceptable. If you make a skill error, then that's on the coaches or we can work on that.
[29:46.560 -> 29:51.120] But what can't be in question is your intent, what can't be in question is your fight,
[29:51.120 -> 29:56.400] what can't be in question is how hard you're willing to work. That's a non-negotiable.
[29:56.400 -> 30:08.600] So I guess growing up in that school of thought and seeing players in the team who had that fight, who had that,
[30:08.600 -> 30:13.400] and seeing those players in the positions that I wanted to get to was like an example
[30:13.400 -> 30:15.240] of where I needed to go.
[30:15.240 -> 30:21.320] But if we go to the real granular detail of a moment when you're 16, you get put on your
[30:21.320 -> 30:25.880] backside where it hurts, you're seeing guys that seem like
[30:25.880 -> 30:30.520] they're a different level physically. There's two moments that come to mind.
[30:30.520 -> 30:37.920] The first one was I was maybe about 17 or 18 and I was joining in with again
[30:37.920 -> 30:43.480] the senior session and they were doing this like I think was a strongman
[30:43.480 -> 30:46.000] circuit like a strongman fitness circuit
[30:46.000 -> 30:51.000] and we were pushing a prala up and down like a relay type of race.
[30:51.000 -> 30:54.000] So I joined one of the teams and they were pushing the prala, pushing the prala.
[30:54.000 -> 31:00.000] It got to my turn, I'm like, I couldn't push it.
[31:00.000 -> 31:05.200] And I think at the time, he now coach Kenny Brown was like oh I've got to take some
[31:05.200 -> 31:09.360] weight off of this little boy. They started taking the weight off I was like damn I need
[31:09.360 -> 31:10.400] to improve here.
[31:10.400 -> 31:15.240] See but you just if I could just pause you there Maro because at that moment you have
[31:15.240 -> 31:20.080] a choice don't you? You can either go it's not for me you know maybe I've just sort of
[31:20.080 -> 31:25.680] like I've reached my limit or you've gone I've got to improve. Where does that come
[31:25.680 -> 31:29.120] from? Because this is what separates high performance from elite performance I
[31:29.120 -> 31:34.320] think. I guess though the level that I wanted to get to you know I like to
[31:34.320 -> 31:40.480] think of myself as a fairly competitive individual you know I want to be
[31:40.480 -> 31:47.500] one of the best players to play I want want to be at a certain level. I had goals I wanted to achieve.
[31:47.500 -> 31:56.000] I was with players who, at the time, I guess back then your goals always changed, but back then my goal was
[31:56.000 -> 32:05.520] I wanted to be a first team Sturgeon's player. That was then the standard of what first team Stacens players were doing and I guess I wasn't living up
[32:05.520 -> 32:11.240] to that standard. So I knew that in order to get to that standard there was a gap and
[32:11.240 -> 32:16.240] I needed to improve in order to reach that standard. And you know with the way of life
[32:16.240 -> 32:21.600] when you then eventually reach that standard then you're looking a little bit higher of
[32:21.600 -> 32:25.100] okay, now I'm a Saracens player I want to
[32:25.100 -> 32:28.580] be a first team player. Then when you reach first team player, England player
[32:28.580 -> 32:30.220] so on and so forth.
[32:30.220 -> 32:33.220] I'll interrupt you, you were going to talk about the second occasion.
[32:33.220 -> 32:41.240] The second occasion, this one was a bit in regards to like again the physical
[32:41.240 -> 32:45.200] differential between where I was and where I needed to be.
[32:46.640 -> 32:53.600] So it was my first game for Saracens, it was a pre-season game. I think I was playing at
[32:53.600 -> 32:57.440] blindside flanker for the game. Anyway, we were playing the rugby team in Rotherham.
[32:58.000 -> 33:04.160] And you know, Rotherham are known for having gnarly forwards, like big strong physical team,
[33:06.640 -> 33:14.080] gnarly forwards, big, strong, physical team, mainly a set-piece sort of team. And as it happens in rugby, there was a little scuffle that was happening.
[33:14.080 -> 33:21.600] And then I came in to protect my players. I pushed one guy, then he looked at me,
[33:21.600 -> 33:27.000] then pushed me back. Then I was like...
[33:27.000 -> 33:29.000] I just felt the push in my chest.
[33:29.000 -> 33:33.000] I was like, whoa, this is...
[33:33.000 -> 33:36.000] This is the same teenager that I'm used to pushing.
[33:36.000 -> 33:37.000] He's a man.
[33:37.000 -> 33:39.000] I felt the weight in his arms.
[33:39.000 -> 33:42.000] Luckily, one of my teammates came to back me up.
[33:42.000 -> 33:44.000] Otherwise, I would have been in a bit of trouble.
[33:44.000 -> 33:50.000] So, that was another example of me realising that I need to get back in the gym.
[33:50.000 -> 33:57.000] This works though because the second thing on the list of the traits of elite captains is aggressive play
[33:57.000 -> 34:00.000] that tests the limit of the rules which is exactly what you've described.
[34:00.000 -> 34:05.200] Even as a 16 year old coming into that environment you were happy to do it.
[34:05.200 -> 34:09.000] You're also renowned on the pitch as the summing of a trash talker.
[34:09.000 -> 34:15.800] So I'm fascinated to just talk about this for a moment because here we have this guy in front of us,
[34:15.800 -> 34:22.000] eloquent, bright, well-educated, demonstrating control, not swearing,
[34:22.000 -> 34:24.800] let alone in front of his parents, yet on the rugby field,
[34:24.800 -> 34:26.000] there'll be opponents thinking,
[34:26.000 -> 34:32.000] hold on a minute, I met a different Mauro when I went up against Saracens or England.
[34:32.000 -> 34:36.000] So how do you marry the two characters and what does that trash talking do for you?
[34:36.000 -> 34:42.000] You know, I think rugby is an emotional game, emotional sport, and you know, you need to be,
[34:42.000 -> 34:45.820] well for me anyway, people are different, I need to be of a different
[34:45.820 -> 34:50.540] mindset when I'm playing as opposed to when I'm just having a lovely conversation with
[34:50.540 -> 34:52.240] two lovely gentlemen.
[34:52.240 -> 35:00.180] So I don't need to carry that same confrontational energy when I'm here than when I'm on the
[35:00.180 -> 35:01.180] field.
[35:01.180 -> 35:05.040] I don't even know if I'm a trash talker like that to be honest.
[35:05.040 -> 35:11.040] I've heard people speak really complimenting you except at the bit on the receiving end.
[35:11.040 -> 35:17.120] I don't even know if I'm a trash talker like that. I think I perhaps do engage in it a little bit.
[35:17.120 -> 35:23.520] I think what potentially frustrates opposition is that I can be quite loud,
[35:23.520 -> 35:26.640] I like to celebrate the little moments
[35:26.640 -> 35:27.640] quite enthusiastically.
[35:27.640 -> 35:33.600] And what's that about? Is that about affecting them or affecting you and your team?
[35:33.600 -> 35:40.880] Well, it's first and foremost, most of my actions is for me first and foremost. So I
[35:40.880 -> 35:46.880] feel as if, as I said, kind of touched on earlier, I'm not the player that is,
[35:47.600 -> 35:56.080] I guess, blessed with so much innate skill. A lot of my attributes in rugby is about energy,
[35:56.080 -> 36:11.000] is about how many involvements I can have in a game, how many positive contributions I can have in the game, how many positive contributions I can have in the game. So I use those moments to try and gee myself up with regards to energy
[36:11.000 -> 36:14.000] and hopefully energise my teammates.
[36:14.000 -> 36:21.000] And I guess the by-product of that is it rubs people up the wrong way sometimes.
[36:21.000 -> 36:31.000] But the by-product of rubbing people up the wrong way gives me more energy so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy I guess.
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[38:12.800 -> 38:15.020] We recently interviewed Sam Tompkins
[38:15.020 -> 38:16.080] from Rugby League on this,
[38:16.080 -> 38:17.800] and he has a similar reputation
[38:17.800 -> 38:20.620] as being one of the sports great trash talkers.
[38:20.620 -> 38:22.600] And when we spoke to him about it,
[38:22.600 -> 38:29.420] his answer was, I'll do anything for that extra 1% and one of the things we spoke about was that while he's
[38:29.420 -> 38:32.940] trash-talking he's not looking to see whether his opponent's listening, he's
[38:32.940 -> 38:37.380] looking for the next play and he's just doing it it's almost like as a as that
[38:37.380 -> 38:43.040] little 1% to get the advantage so I think it sounds similar it's not
[38:43.040 -> 38:46.000] criticism this stuff that in the book. Yeah It's not criticism, this stuff that's in the ball.
[38:46.000 -> 38:56.000] Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I definitely see mine as first and foremost, definitely about giving, you know, my teammates and myself energy.
[38:56.000 -> 39:02.000] It's just an added bonus that it potentially runs people up the wrong way.
[39:02.000 -> 39:05.040] It's the power of these marginal gains, little
[39:05.040 -> 39:08.400] things you can do I think that can create an edge. Let's talk about another
[39:08.400 -> 39:10.440] one, number three is a willingness to do
[39:10.440 -> 39:15.080] thankless jobs in the shadows is the trait of a of an elite leader. We know
[39:15.080 -> 39:20.080] that there's a phrase at Saracens, the shit that no one ever sees. Could you
[39:20.080 -> 39:27.360] share more on that with us? Yeah, TSSPDS is all about all the little things that makes
[39:27.360 -> 39:33.920] a winning team or winning performance that the outside world doesn't necessarily pay
[39:33.920 -> 39:47.680] too much attention to, but without that, the star moments can't happen., as with most things in life, you always see the highlight moments and the
[39:47.680 -> 39:54.560] big landmark moments, which captures everyone's imagination, but more than likely there's
[39:54.560 -> 39:58.960] loads of little things that have happened in the background that have allowed that moment
[39:58.960 -> 40:00.840] to take place.
[40:00.840 -> 40:06.620] And I think as a part of our process we try and pay, you know, significant attention
[40:07.200 -> 40:11.200] to people doing that, you know, the shit that people don't see.
[40:11.200 -> 40:13.620] Like what? Can you give us an example of what that is?
[40:13.660 -> 40:18.320] It could be a kick chase. It could be getting up from the ground quickly and getting back in the line.
[40:18.520 -> 40:21.080] It could be just doing an extra
[40:22.200 -> 40:27.840] effort to put pressure on the 10's foot just so his kick is 5% worse
[40:27.840 -> 40:33.680] than what it would have been. It could be, in the line-out, it could be a little shimmy
[40:33.680 -> 40:39.240] away from the ball for the people who aren't involved in the actual lift, which may just
[40:39.240 -> 40:47.600] distract their eyes a little bit, which gives us more space to win the ball. It could be anything really,
[40:47.600 -> 40:57.040] but all those little things make a big difference. One of my coaches used to tell me once that
[40:57.040 -> 41:08.920] nothing is ever neutral. You're either positively influencing the team or you're negatively influencing the team, you know, no action is neutral. So, you know, in that respect, you know,
[41:08.920 -> 41:12.680] everything matters, everything you do matters, everything you do has a
[41:12.680 -> 41:17.480] consequence, either positive or negative, is either bringing you closer to the goal
[41:17.480 -> 41:22.200] or taking you further away. Which brings us to number four then on Sam's list,
[41:22.200 -> 41:26.200] which is a low-key practical and democratic
[41:26.200 -> 41:30.560] communication style. The research in the book is really fascinating on this where
[41:30.560 -> 41:36.480] there's sort of MIT studies on it about leaders that it's not about doing big
[41:36.480 -> 41:40.360] Churchillian speeches it's the way that they communicate with like quiet
[41:40.360 -> 41:45.280] gestures or eye contact or physical contact. It's like the glue of
[41:45.280 -> 41:51.560] leadership. I'll let a little secret out, I've actually read this book and in the book
[41:51.560 -> 41:56.400] they gave the example with Tim Duncan and they're talking about
[41:56.400 -> 42:02.480] how he's not, you know, he's not a massively loud person, he's not an
[42:02.480 -> 42:05.840] extrovert but he's very good at connecting, very good
[42:05.840 -> 42:10.140] at touching base with different people, whether it's verbal or just
[42:10.140 -> 42:15.360] like little eye contact and stuff like that. And yeah, I guess it's
[42:15.360 -> 42:20.400] important, it's important. I think everyone has a different style of how to
[42:20.400 -> 42:28.280] do that. For some people it may be a bit more extroverted, so for others it may be a bit more introverted
[42:28.280 -> 42:31.800] or in the shadows but you know they both can be as
[42:31.800 -> 42:37.160] effective as one another. What's yours? I don't think I'm necessarily the
[42:37.160 -> 42:40.960] loudest person in the, you know,
[42:40.960 -> 42:52.000] in the environment. I don't think I'm one of those guys who, you know, you walk into a room, you'll hear his voice dominating everyone else.
[42:52.000 -> 43:05.520] By the same time, on the pitch, I tend to be loud because it goes back to that energy type of thing that I want to create for myself and for the team, so I can be quite noisy.
[43:05.520 -> 43:08.560] You may hear me shouting and screaming and stuff.
[43:08.560 -> 43:12.740] And so I don't know, I think I'm a mixture of both.
[43:12.740 -> 43:20.120] I think I probably lean more towards connecting with people, touching base.
[43:20.120 -> 43:24.480] I like to think that if I do need to speak, I will speak.
[43:24.480 -> 43:30.000] And if I do need to talk to the team, then I will do that if it's the right time and place.
[43:30.000 -> 43:36.400] But I don't think I'll be described as, you know, the loudest person in the room.
[43:36.400 -> 43:43.800] I'd like that though. I mean, the next captain's trait in the book was motivating others with passionate nonverbal displays.
[43:43.800 -> 43:46.880] And there's that old phrase, isn't there, the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil.
[43:46.880 -> 43:48.880] So, you know, traditionally the loudest person
[43:48.880 -> 43:49.880] gets the most attention.
[43:49.880 -> 43:51.880] I like to think that we're moving into an era
[43:51.880 -> 43:53.880] where it's not about how loud you are,
[43:53.880 -> 43:55.880] it's about what you've got to say.
[43:55.880 -> 43:57.880] Have you noticed that in rugby,
[43:57.880 -> 44:00.880] that you can have an impact on a team
[44:00.880 -> 44:03.880] without needing to be a loud, sweary,
[44:03.880 -> 44:06.560] shouty, kind of full-on
[44:06.560 -> 44:07.560] individual?
[44:07.560 -> 44:16.040] Yeah, massively. I think when you look at some of the most influential people or teammates
[44:16.040 -> 44:21.120] that I've played with, they're often the ones that don't need to say too much. You just
[44:21.120 -> 44:31.080] know, you look in their eyes and you know that they're gonna do it. And all this stuff is great and it's very important, but by far the best form
[44:31.080 -> 44:36.920] of leadership that I've come across and I've seen is through example, by
[44:36.920 -> 44:42.320] your actions, by what you actually do. That tells your team and teammates
[44:42.320 -> 44:50.000] way more than any speech, any non-verbal communication that you can do.
[44:50.000 -> 44:56.000] That's always the best form of leadership is by playing well.
[44:56.000 -> 45:02.000] And everything else flows from that and you obviously want to improve on those things,
[45:02.000 -> 45:05.000] but first and foremost it's about playing well.
[45:05.000 -> 45:13.000] If you play well then you're doing at least 78% of leading effectively.
[45:13.000 -> 45:17.000] I also think that you're a brave leader as well.
[45:17.000 -> 45:21.000] I know one of the traits is strong convictions and the courage to stand apart.
[45:21.000 -> 45:27.520] I don't think you can be a leader unless you stand apart and I've seen, you know, over the last few years you've had an opinion about social issues,
[45:27.520 -> 45:31.820] political issues, you've spoken about Brexit and other things. How important is it for
[45:31.820 -> 45:37.360] you to share those opinions and for people to understand what you stand for as a man,
[45:37.360 -> 45:39.000] not just as a rugby player?
[45:39.000 -> 45:49.360] Yeah, I think authenticity is a massive part of what I try to be anyway.
[45:49.360 -> 45:59.360] I try and be as authentic as possible.
[45:59.360 -> 46:08.560] I think that's what I respect in others. I have teammates who hold wholly different views to me, but
[46:08.560 -> 46:15.400] when they're principled and when they're authentic with that, I kind of respect it, as opposed
[46:15.400 -> 46:19.360] to individuals who just sway with the wind.
[46:19.360 -> 46:27.060] Can you give us an example? So even, this is not my teammate, but an example being
[46:28.500 -> 46:34.200] Novak Djokovic and his stance with regards to, I think it was the Australian Open and
[46:35.460 -> 46:39.160] COVID etc etc. He made a stance of not
[46:40.380 -> 46:44.460] believing it was the right thing for him to do individually and
[46:47.260 -> 46:51.940] believing it was the right thing for him to do individually and whether that is right or wrong is a different conversation but what I respect about
[46:51.940 -> 46:57.300] that he said this is what I believe, these are my principles and I'm
[46:57.300 -> 47:03.180] not bending. And normally what happens there is you get threatened
[47:03.180 -> 47:06.500] with fines, you get threatened with fines, you get threatened
[47:06.500 -> 47:12.880] with playing opportunities, you get threatened with, you know, how you're seen socially.
[47:12.880 -> 47:18.000] However, if you're truly principled, you're like, nah, that's against my values.
[47:18.000 -> 47:23.880] And whether you agree or disagree is, for me, a different conversation.
[47:23.880 -> 47:26.460] What I respect about that is that he believes
[47:26.460 -> 47:32.760] something and he's willing to stand by it come hell or high water. And I think there's
[47:32.760 -> 47:39.480] something noble about that, whether or not you agree or disagree with what he's actually
[47:39.480 -> 47:40.480] said.
[47:40.480 -> 47:43.440] I appreciate you saying that because I know that in the back of your head is that little
[47:43.440 -> 47:46.880] voice going, oh do I even want to say this because the world we live in now people will
[47:46.880 -> 47:51.400] try and claim that I'm in agreement with what he, and I know what you mean, like I think
[47:51.400 -> 47:57.000] we probably all disagreed with his stance but I think we can all also understand that
[47:57.000 -> 47:59.520] without disagreement there's no progress.
[47:59.520 -> 48:04.240] And it's a really important part I think of modern society that we're possibly losing
[48:04.240 -> 48:05.500] the ability to do which
[48:05.500 -> 48:08.780] is to disagree but accept someone else's point of view.
[48:08.780 -> 48:11.460] Yeah, disagree agreeably.
[48:11.460 -> 48:12.460] People can't do it anymore.
[48:12.460 -> 48:17.060] I've read that, I might be wrong on this, I'd be interested if you confirm it, but at
[48:17.060 -> 48:25.760] Saracen's you've had things like book clubs or philosophy groups where you can have these debates around topics without
[48:25.760 -> 48:31.240] having to seek that everyone achieves a consensus. Would you tell us about that
[48:31.240 -> 48:37.280] and what sort of skills they've given you then? Yeah we used to have, we haven't
[48:37.280 -> 48:40.440] done it for a while, but we used to have this philosophy club as you've
[48:40.440 -> 48:48.320] mentioned and you know we'll'll explore a Greek philosophy or ancient Greek philosophy,
[48:48.320 -> 48:54.880] whether it's Stoicism or whether it's Aristotle or something, or maybe it'll be in or around
[48:55.680 -> 49:04.640] a virtue like, what is honesty? What is being your genuine self type thing? And we'll just
[49:08.480 -> 49:11.280] what is being your genuine self type thing and we'll just, you know, more often than not start with a dialogue.
[49:11.280 -> 49:15.240] Then we'll just discuss it and see where it lands.
[49:15.240 -> 49:17.840] And you know, for me it's two parts.
[49:17.840 -> 49:23.760] One, I find that kind of stuff interesting anyway, so it's always interesting to hear
[49:23.760 -> 49:27.000] or slash learn more about it.
[49:27.000 -> 49:34.080] And two, I guess it's good because it gives you a different insight into a different point
[49:34.080 -> 49:38.360] of view and your teammates' point of view.
[49:38.360 -> 49:48.800] You mentioned art, and it's a little bit similar to art in the sense that we can look at a painting and your opinion
[49:48.800 -> 49:56.080] of the painting could be totally different to mine, but we're seeing the same thing.
[49:56.080 -> 50:00.600] We're seeing the exact same picture, but you can see that, oh, the trees mean this, and
[50:00.600 -> 50:04.120] I think, oh, they're just trees, they don't mean anything, type thing.
[50:04.120 -> 50:09.040] So it's that kind of thing, and I think it's always interesting to see a different point
[50:09.040 -> 50:12.080] of view and test your point of view against theirs.
[50:12.080 -> 50:14.720] Shall we do our quickfire questions?
[50:14.720 -> 50:16.360] You've heard the podcast so you know them, right?
[50:16.360 -> 50:18.480] I think so, I think so.
[50:18.480 -> 50:22.280] Let's see, the three non-negotiables that you and the people around you have to buy
[50:22.280 -> 50:23.280] into.
[50:23.280 -> 50:29.240] I think with this, it's what I would like them to buy into.
[50:29.240 -> 50:35.680] I don't always have full control of the people around me, but in terms of what I think are
[50:35.680 -> 50:41.800] three things that is important that they have, especially if it wants to be a positive relationship
[50:41.800 -> 50:51.660] with me, I would say honesty is a big one. Just being honest with me, being honest with yourself. If you
[50:51.660 -> 50:56.780] think something is wrong, tell me. If you think something's good, you can also
[50:56.780 -> 51:02.260] tell me as well. But let's get to the point as opposed to beat around
[51:02.260 -> 51:05.720] the bush and from there we can build and if
[51:05.720 -> 51:13.180] something's wrong we can fix that. I think respect is another one, respect is just treating
[51:13.180 -> 51:27.520] people with respect is massively important. I think it's almost the foundations of any healthy relationship. And number three, I
[51:27.520 -> 51:34.340] would say punctuality. I'll say punctuality. I think just being respectful
[51:34.340 -> 51:38.440] of people's times. If you're gonna say you're gonna be somewhere, be it. I don't
[51:38.440 -> 51:42.080] really like being late for people. I don't really like when people are late
[51:42.080 -> 51:49.560] for meetings and stuff that I set up. So I would say punctuality is a big one there.
[51:49.560 -> 51:53.280] And by the way, this is now the Etoji question. I've rewritten it because you're right, you
[51:53.280 -> 51:56.760] don't control people around you. So from now on, when you listen to this podcast, it will
[51:56.760 -> 52:01.680] be what are the three non-negotiables that you stand by and that you would like the people
[52:01.680 -> 52:02.960] around you to bind to?
[52:02.960 -> 52:04.560] There we go. Yeah.
[52:04.560 -> 52:05.900] There you go.
[52:05.900 -> 52:09.900] What's your biggest weakness and your greatest strength Mara?
[52:09.900 -> 52:16.060] Someone once told me that often the best thing about you can also be the worst.
[52:16.060 -> 52:31.900] I think I'm very independent, meaning that I don't often rely on other people for help.
[52:31.900 -> 52:39.080] I think my natural default is to be self-contained and manage everything myself, which I think
[52:39.080 -> 52:43.000] is a big strength in a lot of areas.
[52:43.000 -> 52:47.240] But I also think it can be a weakness in your
[52:47.240 -> 52:51.400] professional life, but also outside of that in your personal
[52:51.400 -> 52:56.840] relationships as well, because you perhaps don't open yourself up to other
[52:56.840 -> 53:04.120] people as much or maybe you don't, showing vulnerability isn't the default.
[53:04.120 -> 53:08.320] Right, what's the hidden cost of living your life?
[53:08.320 -> 53:13.180] I think there are a few things, you know, you make a lot of sacrifices with regards
[53:13.180 -> 53:22.440] to doing, you know, what we do, with regards to time and you miss a lot of momentous occasions,
[53:22.440 -> 53:30.400] like just last weekend it was one of my best friend's birthdays but I couldn't go to it because I had a game. The amount of weddings,
[53:30.400 -> 53:39.280] birthdays, christenings, family occasions, etc, etc that I've missed has been a lot.
[53:39.280 -> 53:45.760] But that's a sacrifice that I would pay over and over again because the flip side of that has
[53:45.760 -> 53:53.760] allowed me to do so much. I think there's another aspect with regards to time as well.
[53:55.280 -> 54:01.120] Playing rugby and playing at this level, it's linked to what I said before but it kind of
[54:01.920 -> 54:06.320] stops, it kind of brings a disjointedness to your life.
[54:06.320 -> 54:11.360] You go into camps, you're here, then you're there, then you're there and it's, I guess
[54:11.360 -> 54:15.200] sometimes it's hard to keep up with friendships, hard to keep up with all
[54:15.200 -> 54:21.360] these different types of aspects of your life and with that it's people's
[54:21.360 -> 54:25.040] perceptions of you. Yeah, I meet someone on the street
[54:25.040 -> 54:27.240] and they recognize me as a rugby player
[54:27.240 -> 54:30.600] and they have a preconceived idea of me.
[54:30.600 -> 54:33.260] And because they've obviously seen me play rugby,
[54:33.260 -> 54:36.880] they think that, I think there's sometimes a barrier
[54:36.880 -> 54:39.560] that they think that just because they're a fan
[54:39.560 -> 54:43.560] or they're a supporter or they know who you are,
[54:43.560 -> 54:46.440] they can either like, one one speak to you in a
[54:46.440 -> 54:55.400] certain way or one you know demand an aspect of your time or invade aspects of your privacy
[54:55.400 -> 55:01.200] etc. So I guess that's also a cost to it as well.
[55:01.200 -> 55:05.760] Very good. Listen it's been a really fascinating hour and a bit. What
[55:05.760 -> 55:08.960] would you like to leave our audience with? Your sort of final message for
[55:08.960 -> 55:12.000] living a high-performance life? Ringing in their ears, what would you like it to
[55:12.000 -> 55:18.120] be? Nothing too fancy for me. I would just say you know hard work is the
[55:18.120 -> 55:22.280] foundation everything is built on. If you live a life of hard work and
[55:22.280 -> 55:26.220] fulfillment, you know you're probably more than likely to live a
[55:26.220 -> 55:30.600] high performance life and you'll probably be happy doing it as well.
[55:30.600 -> 55:36.720] I love that. And in many ways that answer sums up the whole interview I think. The words
[55:36.720 -> 55:43.000] you say carry real weight, real resonance and I think you can be understated but an
[55:43.000 -> 55:45.680] overachiever as well and I think that's exactly what you are, you know
[55:45.680 -> 55:47.920] You don't feel the need to shout from the rooftops about what you've achieved
[55:48.760 -> 55:53.960] You talk about it with a real mental clarity and it's it's highly impressive to spend an hour talking to you
[55:53.960 -> 55:56.760] So thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's been a honor and a pleasure
[55:57.400 -> 55:59.360] The honor and the pleasure is all out
[55:59.360 -> 56:01.600] Thank you. Really enjoyed that. I enjoyed it
[56:06.240 -> 56:12.540] you really enjoyed that I enjoyed it Damien, Jake, look you spent a lot of time in and around the world of rugby what
[56:12.540 -> 56:16.480] did you make of Maro? I thought it was fantastic I thought he was that example
[56:16.480 -> 56:19.640] that we spoke about about being the captain class or what we call the
[56:19.640 -> 56:23.720] cultural architects I think he's a poster boy for that I think he's
[56:23.720 -> 56:30.720] cerebral he thinks about his game he's able to articulate it he's a poster boy for that. I think he's cerebral, he thinks about his game, he's able to articulate it, he's a team player first and I was really
[56:30.720 -> 56:34.240] chuffed that we were able to explore some of those aspects with him.
[56:34.240 -> 56:39.200] Stevenson- Yeah, what stood out most? Karl- I love the fact that he thinks about his craft, he
[56:39.200 -> 56:43.320] thinks about the small things, you know, about the experience that he's described
[56:43.320 -> 56:48.400] as a 16 year old boy growing up into the first team dressing room at Saracens and having John Smith
[56:48.400 -> 56:53.200] and some of those big first-name players come and shake his hand is something
[56:53.200 -> 56:58.320] that he wants to pass on to the next generation himself. Having somebody that
[56:58.320 -> 57:03.280] acknowledges that he might take his game right to the limits of what you'd
[57:03.280 -> 57:05.000] consider sportsmanship but
[57:05.000 -> 57:09.720] understanding the reason he does it is somebody that isn't just acting in an
[57:09.720 -> 57:14.000] irrational or emotional way he's a really considered thoughtful character
[57:14.000 -> 57:18.840] and I think that really stood out for me how smart he was. Yeah and I just love
[57:18.840 -> 57:22.200] the fact that he describes himself as you know like a multifaceted individual
[57:22.200 -> 57:29.060] and you don't have to be as deep as Johnny Wilkinson to be there you can be the way that marrow is which is
[57:29.060 -> 57:31.760] someone who isn't just you know we've said it before he's not a rugby player
[57:31.760 -> 57:34.880] he's a guy who plays rugby and he came in and for those that have listened to
[57:34.880 -> 57:38.580] this rather than watched it on YouTube he came in looking a million dollars
[57:38.580 -> 57:43.000] massive smile on his face talking about his interest in artwork and sort of
[57:43.000 -> 57:45.360] discussing what he does away from rugby and I think that I
[57:45.720 -> 57:51.060] Do think we're seeing a change in the way that we view talk about and consider our our athletes
[57:51.060 -> 57:57.240] I mean, I'm still depressed by the negative reporting that I felt there was around the World Cup
[57:57.360 -> 58:02.780] You know the back end of 2022 and like one bad performance. It's the end of the world one good performance
[58:02.780 -> 58:05.280] And it's the greatest thing we've ever seen, everybody wants to have an opinion,
[58:05.280 -> 58:09.080] everyone wants to be critical. I like to think that we're easing off on that a
[58:09.080 -> 58:12.720] bit, maybe not fully obviously, but hopefully you know the more we hear
[58:12.720 -> 58:16.840] people like Maro talk in the way that he did, the more it will change people's
[58:16.840 -> 58:20.280] opinions and we'll be reminded that actually these journalists are writing
[58:20.280 -> 58:24.480] about humans, these football fans are tweeting about humans, you know, these are
[58:24.480 -> 58:26.520] people and they're not perfect.
[58:26.520 -> 58:31.760] Yeah, brilliant point. I think the final point I'd sort of highlight for that was just his
[58:31.760 -> 58:37.040] definition of high performance and the distinction between high performance and elite performance.
[58:37.040 -> 58:41.640] Like you said to him at the time that that's the first time we've had anybody draw us a
[58:41.640 -> 58:48.880] distinction from that. And, you know, it's really made me reflect on like the standard of elite performance is one
[58:48.880 -> 58:53.560] thing but high performance is something that's subjective and relevant to all of
[58:53.560 -> 58:57.640] us and I'm really grateful that you shared that with us. Me too. Thanks a lot
[58:57.640 -> 59:03.080] mate. Thank you mate, loved it. Okay it's time for the part of the show that we
[59:03.080 -> 59:09.160] love where we get to speak to the people that actually listen and are impacted by the conversations we have here on the High Performance
[59:09.160 -> 59:13.200] Podcast. And it's a real pleasure to welcome Arvind. Hey, Arvind.
[59:13.200 -> 59:16.120] Arvind Kaur Thank you, Jake. It's an absolute honour
[59:16.120 -> 59:21.360] and a pleasure and a delight to be speaking to you, honestly. Like, I think the work you
[59:21.360 -> 59:25.920] guys are doing is just truly inspirational and I'm grateful.
[59:25.920 -> 59:26.920] So thank you.
[59:26.920 -> 59:27.920] Yeah.
[59:27.920 -> 59:29.620] Oh man, you're very, very kind.
[59:29.620 -> 59:33.800] So you sent us an email telling us all kinds of things about your life.
[59:33.800 -> 59:34.960] Let's talk about the first thing.
[59:34.960 -> 59:37.520] You run a small plant based restaurant.
[59:37.520 -> 59:38.520] Whereabouts is that?
[59:38.520 -> 59:39.520] What's it called?
[59:39.520 -> 59:45.880] It's called Amruta Lounge and we're based in southwest London in Earlsfield and it's
[59:45.880 -> 59:49.920] a little restaurant, community-based restaurant, small restaurant like 12
[59:49.920 -> 59:53.980] tables but it's like coming to a friend's house for dinner. So let's start
[59:53.980 -> 59:57.200] with the restaurant then Arvind, what's High Performance done for you as a
[59:57.200 -> 01:00:03.860] businessman? Oh wow, like it's the thing with the High Performance is it's a the
[01:00:03.860 -> 01:00:05.300] work you guys do, all of the work you guys do all of the
[01:00:05.300 -> 01:00:09.240] guests you guys have on what we try to preach at the restaurant and practice at
[01:00:09.240 -> 01:00:13.740] the restaurant it's all exactly the same thing for me there's one truth there's
[01:00:13.740 -> 01:00:17.360] literally one truth and there's different interpretations of it different
[01:00:17.360 -> 01:00:21.780] levels to it culture and people it comes out in different ways but essentially
[01:00:21.780 -> 01:00:25.900] it's all the same thing. It sounds to me, Arvind, like there's some non-negotiable
[01:00:25.900 -> 01:00:27.620] behaviors going on in your place.
[01:00:27.620 -> 01:00:31.840] So tell us what are like, what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that
[01:00:31.840 -> 01:00:35.060] you and these angels that work for you have to buy into?
[01:00:35.180 -> 01:00:36.380] There's a couple of things we do.
[01:00:36.740 -> 01:00:39.260] Very simply, we've got this little thing called pakoras,
[01:00:39.260 -> 01:00:40.900] like deep fried vegetables.
[01:00:40.980 -> 01:00:41.980] People go mad for it.
[01:00:41.980 -> 01:00:44.060] It's just so simple, but it's people go mad for it.
[01:00:44.300 -> 01:00:50.040] But every pakora leaves the kitchen perfectly golden and crispy and
[01:00:50.040 -> 01:00:56.800] every customer leaves with a smile on their face. If you do those two things
[01:00:56.800 -> 01:01:02.720] every single thing will work out completely and I absolutely believe in
[01:01:02.720 -> 01:01:07.640] that and absolutely practice that and when we do that at the restaurant it manifests itself
[01:01:07.640 -> 01:01:10.620] And what I mean by that if you don't mind me expanding
[01:01:10.620 -> 01:01:11.040] Okay
[01:01:11.040 -> 01:01:12.040] is
[01:01:12.040 -> 01:01:19.160] When you pay that level of attention to each nugget of pakora coming out like a golden perfect crispy nugget
[01:01:19.160 -> 01:01:26.240] Okay, then that level of care and attention you put into that one element of one menu will translate into other things.
[01:01:26.240 -> 01:01:28.960] You're not going to have stodgy rice, you're not going to have odd rice.
[01:01:28.960 -> 01:01:32.560] That same level of care will translate itself into other parts.
[01:01:32.560 -> 01:01:35.920] It sounds like a great example of the Sean Wayne episode
[01:01:35.920 -> 01:01:39.840] where he told us that how you do anything is how you do everything.
[01:01:39.840 -> 01:01:43.000] So the way you focus on this pakora
[01:01:43.000 -> 01:01:46.400] is almost the way that it defines the whole culture of your,
[01:01:46.400 -> 01:01:52.640] of your brilliant restaurant. Love it. The power of the Pecora. Wonderful. Before we,
[01:01:52.640 -> 01:01:55.840] before we wrap this up, and thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story.
[01:01:56.480 -> 01:02:00.800] You know, people may well listen to this and they will be like, well, yeah, that's great for
[01:02:00.800 -> 01:02:04.560] Arvin. He's done really well. He set up his restaurant, life's easy for him. No wonder he
[01:02:04.560 -> 01:02:07.680] feels great and high performance feels simple. But as part of your
[01:02:07.680 -> 01:02:11.580] message, you know, you told us that you've had some really, really dark times. Would
[01:02:11.580 -> 01:02:17.080] you mind briefly touching on the thing you learned most in that time that you think would
[01:02:17.080 -> 01:02:20.200] be really valuable for the people listening to this conversation, mate?
[01:02:20.200 -> 01:02:26.720] The thing is, like I say, like I've, I've, I've had wonderful people come into my life and guide me in ways where
[01:02:26.720 -> 01:02:33.520] it just every day just works out perfectly and it's a process that's happening naturally.
[01:02:33.520 -> 01:02:39.760] But at times it only got there because there was a point when my mom, my best friend's mom,
[01:02:39.760 -> 01:02:43.840] and another one of my best friend's mom, all within a very short period of time,
[01:02:44.480 -> 01:02:50.160] all got diagnosed with different illnesses and we all reacted in different ways. But that's when
[01:02:50.160 -> 01:02:56.720] healthy eating and all of these things kind of came into my life, and something changed. And
[01:02:56.720 -> 01:03:01.680] yoga, meditation, inspirational people like the work you're doing, I promise you, I can't tell
[01:03:01.680 -> 01:03:07.760] you the value of the I'm sure you know the value of the work, but it's incredible because it allows people to connect.
[01:03:07.760 -> 01:03:10.440] I don't want to get too dark with the stuff and things.
[01:03:10.440 -> 01:03:14.040] I just want to keep it super positive because like I say, everyone goes through stuff.
[01:03:14.040 -> 01:03:20.600] I don't think the world admires people that have it all good and have it all be easy.
[01:03:20.600 -> 01:03:26.560] I think the world admires people that have had a tough time, that have gone through things,
[01:03:26.560 -> 01:03:27.840] but overcome those things.
[01:03:27.840 -> 01:03:31.600] I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing with us the things that you've learned
[01:03:31.600 -> 01:03:37.520] from the podcast, Arvind. And listen, the next time that we're down in the capital,
[01:03:37.520 -> 01:03:43.140] we want, we want the works. I want to be, I want to eat so much pakora, you roll me
[01:03:43.140 -> 01:03:45.400] out of that restaurant, buddy.
[01:03:45.400 -> 01:03:46.800] I guarantee it.
[01:03:46.800 -> 01:03:49.880] And thank you boys and continue the incredible work you're doing.
[01:03:49.880 -> 01:03:51.200] The pleasure is ours, Arvind.
[01:03:51.200 -> 01:03:52.200] Thank you.
[01:03:52.200 -> 01:03:56.200] Well, that's it from this episode of the High Performance Podcast.
[01:03:56.200 -> 01:03:58.720] Of course, thank you very much to Marrow for joining us.
[01:03:58.720 -> 01:04:01.720] Huge thanks to the whole High Performance team as well for their hard work creating
[01:04:01.720 -> 01:04:02.720] this episode.
[01:04:02.720 -> 01:04:04.440] But the biggest thanks goes to you.
[01:04:04.440 -> 01:04:09.040] Listen, there's only one thing I asked you to do, and that is to share this content,
[01:04:09.040 -> 01:04:13.160] whether you just want to ping it to a friend, WhatsApp it in a work WhatsApp group, stick
[01:04:13.160 -> 01:04:18.220] it on your Instagram, tweet it, I don't mind, but you sharing this podcast is the single
[01:04:18.220 -> 01:04:22.460] most important thing that you can do for us. Don't forget, you can also subscribe so that
[01:04:22.460 -> 01:04:25.000] you get these podcasts sent straight to you.
[01:04:25.000 -> 01:04:29.520] Anyway, thanks for joining us and we'll see you again soon for another episode of High
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