Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 30 Jan 2023 00:02:58 GMT
Duration:
47:17
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
It’s been almost three years since Jake and Damian first sat down with football manager Sean Dyche. A lot has changed since that initial conversation, he is now manager of Everton FC. Sean left Burnley after a decade in charge of the team, keeping them in the Premier League for six seasons with a limited wage bill.
In this episode, Sean seeks to challenge the myths told about him. They delve deep into his managing style, how he individually assesses players to give them the best chance of being successful. They discuss how to focus on the opinions that matter, connecting with players as individuals and focusing on ‘positive realities’.
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## Summary of the Podcast Episode: "High Performance: A Conversation with Everton Manager, Sean Dyche"
### Key Points:
- Sean Dyche emphasizes the importance of maximizing the ability of others while maximizing oneself as a leader. He believes that to achieve high performance, one must push others for more while simultaneously demanding more of oneself to find the right balance.
- When considering a new job opportunity, Dyche seeks to understand the feel of the club, its history, and its potential for growth. He believes in assessing the playing staff and determining what is required to take the team to the next level.
- Dyche highlights the need for a manager to be approachable and relatable to the players, allowing for open communication and trust. He believes that creating a positive and supportive environment is crucial for player development and team success.
- Reflecting on his departure from Burnley, Dyche acknowledges the challenges he faced due to limited investment in the team. He emphasizes the importance of positive realities and working within the constraints of the club's financial situation.
- Dyche discusses the need for managers to adapt their approach based on the players and the team's needs. He believes in finding a balance between simplicity and innovation, catering to the strengths of the players while keeping up with modern trends in football.
- Dyche emphasizes the significance of diversity in football, both in terms of playing styles and backgrounds. He believes that every player should be given the opportunity to showcase their talents in a way that maximizes their potential.
- Dyche emphasizes the importance of winning games as a fundamental principle of football. He questions whether certain styles of play, such as excessive passing in one's own half, are truly entertaining for fans.
- Dyche draws inspiration from Arrigo Sacchi's philosophy of maximizing the potential of the players available and prioritizing winning games. He believes that a manager's approach should be based on the unique strengths and characteristics of the team.
### Overall Message:
Sean Dyche's approach to management emphasizes the importance of understanding the players, creating a positive and supportive environment, and adapting one's approach based on the team's needs. He believes in finding a balance between simplicity and innovation, while prioritizing winning games and maximizing the potential of each player. Dyche's philosophy is rooted in the belief that high performance is achieved through maximizing the ability of others while simultaneously maximizing oneself as a leader.
**Summary of the Podcast Episode**
**Introduction**
* Sean Dyche, former manager of Burnley FC, joins the podcast to challenge the myths surrounding him and his managerial style.
* He emphasizes the importance of hard work, alignment, honesty, trust, respect, and a great attitude as key factors in his success.
**Adapting to Different Situations**
* Dyche discusses the pressure on modern managers to have a defined philosophy, even before they fully understand the team they're working with.
* He believes in adapting his approach based on the players and resources available, rather than rigidly adhering to a predetermined philosophy.
* The challenge lies in persuading club owners and fans to trust this approach, especially when there's a desire for immediate results.
**Dealing with Criticism and Maintaining Perspective**
* Dyche acknowledges that he has been criticized for his perceived inflexibility and lack of tactical variety.
* However, he remains focused on the realities of the job and the need to manage expectations.
* He emphasizes the importance of not taking criticism personally and maintaining a positive outlook, even in difficult times.
**The Importance of Player Relationships**
* Dyche stresses the significance of building strong relationships with players, understanding their individual needs, and creating a positive and supportive environment.
* He believes in empowering players to take responsibility and ownership of their performances.
* He also highlights the value of recognizing and appreciating players' contributions, both on and off the field.
**Finding Motivation and Avoiding Complacency**
* Dyche discusses the challenge of maintaining motivation and avoiding complacency within a team, especially after achieving success.
* He emphasizes the importance of setting new goals and constantly striving for improvement.
* He believes in creating a culture of accountability and encouraging players to push themselves to reach their full potential.
**Conclusion**
* Dyche reflects on his time at Burnley FC and the lessons he learned during his tenure.
* He acknowledges the disappointment of relegation but emphasizes the need to move forward and focus on the future.
* He expresses his excitement about the prospect of returning to management and the opportunity to apply his learnings and experiences in a new context.
**Navigating the Challenges of Leadership: Lessons from Sean Dyche's Managerial Journey**
In this podcast episode, former Burnley manager Sean Dyche delves into the intricacies of his managerial style, emphasizing the significance of individualized player assessment, focusing on relevant opinions, and connecting with players on a personal level. He stresses the importance of authenticity and genuine leadership, advocating for being true to oneself rather than conforming to societal expectations.
Dyche's emphasis on hard work and a positive attitude as key ingredients for success resonates throughout the conversation. He highlights the need for authenticity and being true to oneself, rejecting the prevalent superficiality and meaningless jargon that often dominates modern discourse.
The podcast delves into Dyche's experience at Burnley, exploring the factors that led to his departure after a decade of successful management. The discussion centers on the misalignment between Dyche's vision and the club's new ownership, leading to a breakdown in communication and ultimately his dismissal. This serves as a cautionary tale about the importance of alignment and open communication in any leadership role.
The episode also touches upon the challenges of dealing with difficult situations and making tough decisions, particularly in the context of managing a football club. Dyche reflects on the emotional toll of managing a team through challenging periods, emphasizing the importance of resilience and perseverance.
Overall, the podcast provides valuable insights into the world of football management, leadership, and personal development. Dyche's candid reflections on his experiences offer valuable lessons for anyone seeking to excel in leadership positions, regardless of their field.
[00:00.000 -> 00:07.080] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and this is High Performance, the podcast that reminds you
[00:07.080 -> 00:12.240] that it's within. Your ambition, your purpose, your story are all there. We just help unlock
[00:12.240 -> 00:16.720] it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your life
[00:16.720 -> 00:25.880] lessons. Right now, allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes to welcome to the show the latest manager to be appointed in the
[00:25.880 -> 00:28.400] Premier League. Here's what's in store.
[00:28.400 -> 00:36.000] It's always about the players for me. So it'd be them, I'd go, this is what we're prepared to give to you. This is what we feel is gonna be important for you.
[00:36.000 -> 00:39.540] Because I always think if you can affect the person, you'll affect their
[00:39.540 -> 00:44.640] performance. So therefore, it's about them, not about me. You're gonna be putting your box.
[00:44.640 -> 00:46.680] You know, look how I look, look how I sound.
[00:46.680 -> 00:48.840] I'm probably going to live in a pretty simple box.
[00:48.840 -> 00:53.360] You know, it suggests you just get on and you do that, but players don't forget.
[00:53.360 -> 00:54.120] You're looking at your players.
[00:54.120 -> 00:55.000] I know there's more to it.
[00:55.000 -> 00:57.680] You start off, know there's more work involved than what people would imagine.
[00:57.680 -> 00:58.360] So that's good.
[00:58.360 -> 00:58.840] You go, right.
[00:58.840 -> 00:59.120] Okay.
[00:59.120 -> 01:00.400] Who do I really need to worry about?
[01:00.400 -> 01:01.360] Well, I need to worry about them.
[01:01.960 -> 01:02.800] People on a performance.
[01:02.800 -> 01:06.500] They can go, oh yeah, but they, they won the league or something you go right what's the story
[01:06.500 -> 01:10.740] behind winning the league and it's very rarely as you both know very rarely
[01:10.740 -> 01:14.740] about tactics and all that it's about the fabric of what you do that the
[01:14.740 -> 01:18.420] construct of what you do that the people are involved the dynamic the mind
[01:18.420 -> 01:23.340] dynamic the connection I'm not gonna guarantee it be amazing football what I
[01:23.340 -> 01:25.180] will guarantee you'll have a team that put sweat on the shirt
[01:26.760 -> 01:29.400] So welcome back to high-performance Sean Daish
[01:29.680 -> 01:35.000] This is an interesting one because the first time that Sean came on the show this podcast was in its infancy
[01:35.000 -> 01:37.920] It was episode 11 and I remember Damien and myself
[01:37.920 -> 01:43.100] We traveled up to the Burnley training ground and we spent a good couple of hours with Sean talking about all kinds of things
[01:43.100 -> 01:44.520] If you're an Everton fan
[01:44.520 -> 01:48.080] If you're a football fan and you want to know more about Sean's methods
[01:48.080 -> 01:52.080] and the type of things that he'll be doing now that he's back in football, have a listen to that
[01:52.080 -> 01:57.200] episode. But what today is all about is what he learned after the departure from Burnley,
[01:57.200 -> 02:02.320] the benefit that having time away from the game can give you and what the latest club that he joins
[02:03.040 -> 02:06.000] is going to get. This is a really wide ranging
[02:06.000 -> 02:07.960] and interesting conversation with Sean.
[02:07.960 -> 02:09.860] I really hope that you enjoy it.
[02:09.860 -> 02:11.780] Just a quick reminder that if you want to join us
[02:11.780 -> 02:13.120] on the High Performance Live Tour
[02:13.120 -> 02:14.320] for more of this kind of stuff,
[02:14.320 -> 02:17.720] then just go to thehighperformancepodcast.com.
[02:17.720 -> 02:19.660] You can find all the details right there.
[02:19.660 -> 02:20.800] But let's get straight to it.
[02:20.800 -> 02:22.040] It's time to get you closer
[02:22.040 -> 02:24.360] to your own version of high performance
[02:24.360 -> 02:31.640] with lessons in success and failure, how to build team cultures, how to create a winning mentality
[02:31.640 -> 02:37.400] from Everton manager, Sean Dyche. And can I just say, as far as I'm concerned, I think
[02:37.400 -> 02:42.060] Sean and Everton are a brilliant fit. I hate some of the sniffiness that I see on social
[02:42.060 -> 02:50.160] media and in other places about Sean. He is a bright, articulate, forward-thinking, ambitious, creative manager.
[02:50.440 -> 02:54.680] And he's landed himself at, as far as I'm concerned, one of the best football clubs in the country.
[02:55.280 -> 02:56.280] The fans are incredible.
[02:56.280 -> 02:57.520] The history is amazing.
[02:57.720 -> 02:59.440] It's one of my favorite stadiums to go to.
[02:59.440 -> 03:01.120] I will miss Goodison Park when it's gone.
[03:01.600 -> 03:05.440] And I really think that Sean Dyche and Everton are a match
[03:05.440 -> 03:08.680] made in heaven. Let's not pretend it's not going to be a challenge over the next few
[03:08.680 -> 03:13.480] months, but Everton fans, I think you have got the man that is going to turn around and
[03:13.480 -> 03:18.320] transform your football club. So let's get to it. It's time to get you closer to your
[03:18.320 -> 03:29.440] own version of high performance by welcoming the Everton boss, Sean Dyche.
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[06:12.280 -> 06:15.860] Sean, what is your definition of high performance?
[06:15.860 -> 06:16.800] I think there's so many.
[06:16.800 -> 06:20.520] In my case, it's maximizing the ability of others
[06:20.520 -> 06:22.220] whilst maximizing yourself, you know,
[06:22.220 -> 06:24.220] because you're, well, if you're leading it,
[06:24.220 -> 06:28.240] if you're a manager, coach, or whatever your role is, then you are pushing them for
[06:28.240 -> 06:33.120] more, but whilst you're doing that, you've got to ask more of yourself in order to find
[06:33.120 -> 06:37.680] that balance, I think. So, I mean, there's many others, but that would be my feel on
[06:37.680 -> 06:42.160] it rather than a definition like a dictionary definition, that would be my feel on it.
[06:42.160 -> 06:52.240] Now you've had this opportunity to have a bit of a break from the game, not much of one, only a few months. When you go into a job, what's going to be the first reassurance
[06:52.240 -> 06:56.400] or the first question you're going to ask of a potential new chairman, director of a
[06:56.400 -> 07:01.080] football club to know that it's the right next step for you in your career?
[07:01.080 -> 07:07.560] I don't think there's a perfect answer because you've got different boards, you've got different, like sometimes different panels who
[07:07.560 -> 07:10.720] would interview you, you know, is it the director of football, is it the owner, is
[07:10.720 -> 07:13.940] the owner hands-on, is the owner hands-off, who's the runners and riders
[07:13.940 -> 07:19.300] involved. Once you define them, I'd go for the feel of a club, so usually, let's have
[07:19.300 -> 07:22.880] it right, you know the feel of a club, maybe location, I'd burn the iron in there,
[07:22.880 -> 07:28.160] my strap line was, I'm not gonna guarantee it'll be amazing football, what I will guarantee you'll
[07:28.160 -> 07:32.060] have a team that put sweat on the shirt, because that part of the country, tough
[07:32.060 -> 07:35.760] times, a bit about the history, you know real downtrodden at times plays,
[07:35.760 -> 07:40.760] you know a bit down on its luck, if I was a fan I thought I'd want to see people
[07:40.760 -> 07:48.620] wear that shirt and give their lot, so I thought right okay that's a start point. For example, different parts of the country, different
[07:48.620 -> 07:52.600] social aspect, different feel about the club, you'd probably look at that, well
[07:52.600 -> 07:57.920] I'd look at that as well, look at the playing staff, this is what it requires
[07:57.920 -> 08:02.520] in my opinion. So then I'd give an overview of right okay I know a bit
[08:02.520 -> 08:10.120] about your club, I know a bit about your stuff, I've seen the whatever, say the last five years of growth, let's say, where do you
[08:10.120 -> 08:13.960] think it can go now? They tell you they think it usually can go to the stratosphere,
[08:13.960 -> 08:19.640] okay, let's maybe cool that down a little bit, you know, what's the reality? And that
[08:19.640 -> 08:26.680] kind of scenario, you know what I mean? So it's not a one-size-fits-all situation.
[08:26.680 -> 08:31.480] You know right so an extreme example so probably change slightly but you know
[08:31.480 -> 08:35.560] Tottenham, Tottenham are always there you know the footballing fancy dans of
[08:35.560 -> 08:37.160] London let's say.
[08:37.160 -> 08:38.200] That's it's Tottenham.
[08:38.200 -> 08:42.400] Yeah yeah right and then about Pochettino did brilliant I thought he
[08:42.400 -> 08:46.240] changed that perception massively. Unless I'm right, because he got on running,
[08:46.240 -> 08:47.820] really running.
[08:47.820 -> 08:50.700] So, there's a change of, he took the fact
[08:50.700 -> 08:53.020] we're still gonna play, which they did,
[08:53.020 -> 08:55.100] but he had them playing harder,
[08:55.100 -> 08:58.100] not so much tougher like tackling tough,
[08:58.100 -> 09:00.580] but you know, running hard, working hard,
[09:00.580 -> 09:02.020] but still playing.
[09:02.020 -> 09:02.860] So there's a shift.
[09:02.860 -> 09:03.700] You know, he's gone in and said,
[09:03.700 -> 09:04.940] right, we're still gonna beat Tottenham,
[09:04.940 -> 09:06.880] and we still are gonna be a really good
[09:06.880 -> 09:09.960] footballing side but we're gonna have a much harder edge about us and we're
[09:09.960 -> 09:13.400] gonna be fit as you like and that's what he did. So there's an example, well that's
[09:13.400 -> 09:18.320] an example that I would use as being taking what's there but adding your, you
[09:18.320 -> 09:21.960] know, instinct and your feel of what it was and Tripps would vouch for that because he
[09:21.960 -> 09:26.640] was there and he said, said Poggiino's is pre-season he said it absolutely smashes yours Gavin.
[09:26.640 -> 09:30.260] And what about the players then because there's that great phrase you only get
[09:30.260 -> 09:34.100] one chance to make a good first impression when you next walk into a
[09:34.100 -> 09:38.680] dressing room? Well if I walk into whatever dressing room probably gonna go
[09:38.680 -> 09:44.560] alright he's probably gonna be pretty disciplined probably gonna work us
[09:44.560 -> 09:46.960] pretty hard probably gonna want a lot from us probably gonna be pretty disciplined, probably gonna work us pretty hard, probably gonna want a
[09:46.960 -> 09:52.560] lot from us, probably gonna be, I would imagine, pretty honest, probably gonna be honest with
[09:52.560 -> 09:57.280] himself and what we're about, and probably gonna be a bit of one of us type thing. I
[09:57.280 -> 10:03.300] might have that wrong, but I would think that's probably a feel, a generalized feel. What
[10:03.300 -> 10:06.000] you hope then is within all that, by the way, they will get all that
[10:06.160 -> 10:11.000] But then afterwards I go mind you I think I can associate with him
[10:11.000 -> 10:14.400] I can appreciate I can I can see him I can go and speak with him
[10:14.400 -> 10:17.540] And then once they get to know you a bit better they go. Yeah, all right
[10:18.120 -> 10:23.480] That's the bit that I think would be a bit more unknown, you know better. We're chatting. What's it would take the bus a prize
[10:23.480 -> 10:26.600] I just think maybe approachable I think more approachable yeah most
[10:26.600 -> 10:30.120] people who work with me players and that go oh no way you know you can I can
[10:30.120 -> 10:33.320] approach I can talk to the gaffer about. And do you get ahead of it would you go in
[10:33.320 -> 10:35.680] and go listen lads you think you know what you're getting here you'd think
[10:35.680 -> 10:38.280] you're getting this and this and this and this and you've seen me do this and
[10:38.280 -> 10:42.480] this but here's the reality. No I think I think when I went into Burnley
[10:42.480 -> 10:46.040] because I was a one season manager said this is what you're gonna get from me
[10:47.080 -> 10:50.160] Told him and this is what I'd expect from you
[10:50.760 -> 10:55.020] But I think now it's like different because they probably you know, they've got all these opinions
[10:55.020 -> 10:58.160] But I'd still be pretty clear and go look this is what I think we can offer you
[10:58.440 -> 11:01.120] It was always about the players for me. So it'd be that my god
[11:01.120 -> 11:06.560] This is what we feel or I feel as manager these these staff, let's imagine you take some staff in,
[11:06.560 -> 11:11.040] this is what we're prepared to give to you, this is what we feel is going to be important for you.
[11:11.040 -> 11:17.520] Because I always think if you can affect the person, you'll affect their performance, so therefore, it's about them, not about me.
[11:17.520 -> 11:21.880] So can I ask you a killer question that any potential employer would ask you?
[11:21.880 -> 11:26.840] Because seeing you come here today you look
[11:24.560 -> 11:28.520] really well you look like there's a lot
[11:26.840 -> 11:31.400] of stress that's been come off you you're
[11:28.520 -> 11:32.480] looking good shape so why on earth would
[11:31.400 -> 11:34.240] you want to go back into that world?
[11:32.480 -> 11:36.200] Yeah but you know I think that's a
[11:34.240 -> 11:38.480] little bit of perception as well you
[11:36.200 -> 11:40.520] know you've got to remember so taking away
[11:38.480 -> 11:42.120] jobs and no jobs I've been on holiday a
[11:40.520 -> 11:45.240] few times believe or not I do get a
[11:42.120 -> 11:47.760] little bit of a tan I do generally look after, people don't normally see me like this for another
[11:47.760 -> 11:51.760] thing, they just see me in a suit and a tie and all that. I always, virtually always get
[11:51.760 -> 11:57.120] you're taller than I thought, you're skinnier than I thought, they're the two
[11:57.120 -> 12:02.400] biggest things. You know, so some of it is just your mind, I don't think I
[12:02.400 -> 12:05.220] looked incredibly stressed at the end end last season when I came out
[12:05.220 -> 12:08.240] No, but I'm gonna win it so when we met you in December 29
[12:08.240 -> 12:12.320] Yeah, what I would say is okay. Are you refreshed if I was there my be saying are you though?
[12:12.320 -> 12:15.660] You might look it but are you are you refreshed? Are you ready to go again?
[12:15.660 -> 12:21.060] Can you think that you're gonna offer more or at least what you've been offering? But are you gonna?
[12:21.820 -> 12:28.240] Stimulate more from yourself from yourself and the players of course that would be their question I imagine. But I'm asking it of
[12:28.240 -> 12:31.960] you because I think like the lessons that you've got and some of the wisdom
[12:31.960 -> 12:37.000] that you've acquired over the years is surely applicable far wider than just
[12:37.000 -> 12:41.800] going into a dressing room and running. Yeah I mean to be honest going beyond not
[12:41.800 -> 12:47.980] beyond football but around football I have enjoyed chatting like this because you get a chance to open up a little bit about you
[12:47.980 -> 12:52.620] know take away some of the myths maybe and offer an opinion the media I've been
[12:52.620 -> 12:55.780] offered lots of media the reason why I've done the sorry I know this media
[12:55.780 -> 13:00.300] the big you know the obvious media is because you put an opinion out there as
[13:00.300 -> 13:03.400] we know it gets smashed about everywhere and you go hang on a minute I didn't say
[13:03.400 -> 13:06.760] that I didn't say in that way so I'm a bit wary of that football wise
[13:06.760 -> 13:12.680] I've backed down from that to give myself a chance to sort of rejuvenate my
[13:12.680 -> 13:17.760] thirst not that I needed energy wise but to go right when I'm ready to go back in
[13:17.760 -> 13:22.520] I am ready we're really ready are you ready now yeah I think so I mean I've
[13:22.520 -> 13:27.860] had a bit of a you know I've had a few beers me mates and took them away and games of golf and all that sort of stuff
[13:27.860 -> 13:31.720] Not been mad about the football. That was the point. Sorry, you know, I haven't been obsessing about football
[13:31.720 -> 13:33.940] They're ringing me the side. Did you see this game see that game?
[13:33.940 -> 13:38.120] I'm like no, you know stepped away from all that, but then slowly but surely
[13:39.020 -> 13:41.180] Imagine you Nick game here and there and you what you go
[13:41.180 -> 13:48.000] I watched a few games, but I've been casual social, you know, not in suits and all that. Forrest, my family relocated to Nottingham
[13:48.000 -> 13:50.960] so I've been down to Forrest a few times at the end of last season and the beginning of
[13:50.960 -> 13:52.760] this season, things like that.
[13:52.760 -> 13:56.480] So let's talk then about the importance of this period for you to be able to reflect
[13:56.480 -> 14:02.160] on how things ended at Burnley, like you wouldn't be doing yourself justice if you didn't really
[14:02.160 -> 14:06.200] delve into what happened and think right, what could I do different? What was out of my control?
[14:06.800 -> 14:09.100] How do I avoid certain things happening again?
[14:09.800 -> 14:12.600] So how do you now reflect on it having had a bit of a break?
[14:12.700 -> 14:16.400] Well, the obvious thing was, you know,
[14:16.400 -> 14:18.800] what people have got to remember about Burnley was to it,
[14:19.300 -> 14:21.300] probably the beginning of the pandemic, actually,
[14:21.800 -> 14:23.800] the club was being sold behind everyone's eyes,
[14:23.800 -> 14:28.240] you know, and that was a really tough period because you need players, you know, we all know that, you need to stimulate a
[14:28.240 -> 14:33.680] group of players, not just you, your staff, new players, new people coming in and they weren't
[14:33.680 -> 14:37.520] prepared to do that, you know, and with all due respect, one of the summers, you know, we brought
[14:37.520 -> 14:43.120] in Dale Seams from Brighton for like 750,000, that's your summer spend, I mean Premier League,
[14:43.120 -> 14:47.520] that's very difficult to do that every year and we've done that a couple of years we
[14:47.520 -> 14:50.680] haven't invested heavily so I knew the team was gonna hit a wall at some point
[14:50.680 -> 14:53.860] told the new ownership that the next couple years are gonna be really tough
[14:53.860 -> 14:56.420] because I thought it was gonna be not because I was being negative just I
[14:56.420 -> 14:59.080] believed it was gonna be. And do they then think you're being negative do you think?
[14:59.080 -> 15:03.940] I don't know I mean you can't you can't always put your finger on that you know
[15:03.940 -> 15:10.600] people you use words and people will absorb it in their manner and they'll adjust the story accordingly.
[15:10.600 -> 15:17.000] So, I've just always got to call it positive realities. You know, at the end of the day, I'm not that guy who's going to say,
[15:17.000 -> 15:21.000] yeah, yeah, it's all going to be right, they're all going to be brilliant. And I'm going, no, this is probably going to be the truth of it.
[15:21.000 -> 15:25.160] We're going to work beyond that. In-house donhouse stuff, you know, this is private with your,
[15:25.160 -> 15:28.240] your ownership or your, your real top staff,
[15:28.240 -> 15:29.800] not with everyone involved.
[15:30.240 -> 15:31.760] But I just always thought, you know, the
[15:32.000 -> 15:33.920] reality is the thing to work on.
[15:34.320 -> 15:35.720] And then the positive bit is when you take
[15:35.720 -> 15:37.180] it out to the world and go, right, no, these
[15:37.180 -> 15:38.480] are good players or whatever, you know,
[15:38.480 -> 15:39.520] they're, they're, they're good pros.
[15:39.520 -> 15:41.280] We can make the best of this situation, all
[15:41.280 -> 15:42.880] these challenges and all that sort of stuff.
[15:43.160 -> 15:44.560] But there still has to be a reality line.
[15:44.560 -> 15:46.580] I think I can't sign the checks you know
[15:46.580 -> 15:49.260] I can only advise what we should be doing and that's really frustrating
[15:49.260 -> 15:52.220] sometimes the manager because you know what you should be doing but you need
[15:52.220 -> 15:56.260] finance and available finance and they've got a someone's got to sign the
[15:56.260 -> 15:59.300] check you know you can't do that so I knew I knew it was gonna be a tough
[15:59.300 -> 16:03.700] period the ex-owners knew that but they were selling the club and they had you
[16:03.700 -> 16:06.480] know lots and lots and lots of money and so I'm not going to go into detail,
[16:06.480 -> 16:08.880] way more than you think was in the club.
[16:08.880 -> 16:12.320] That goes then into the new ownership, they then reverse finance.
[16:12.320 -> 16:14.640] So then now they're looking at a different model, you know,
[16:14.640 -> 16:15.760] straight from the off.
[16:15.760 -> 16:18.480] But you've got to be open-minded to work with that model and that's what I tend to do,
[16:18.480 -> 16:21.440] was work within their new thinking and their new model,
[16:21.440 -> 16:24.640] whilst knowing that some of the players were just hitting that wall
[16:24.640 -> 16:29.520] in that little down period when you think, right right how do we re-stimulate, you
[16:29.520 -> 16:33.920] know re-energise players who deep down you go they're going just over that edge.
[16:33.920 -> 16:39.160] It's a very difficult situation actually because although you're the manager and to the public
[16:39.160 -> 16:42.200] you're the kind of leader of that football club you're suddenly totally powerless because
[16:42.200 -> 16:47.240] as you say you don't write the checks but you can also see it coming. Yet at the same time,
[16:47.240 -> 16:50.600] you've got to go out publicly and say, hey, we're going to be fine, we're going
[16:50.600 -> 16:54.600] to deal with this okay. Who do you turn to at times like that? Because I imagine
[16:54.600 -> 16:57.640] that can be quite a lonely experience actually. You've got your immediate
[16:57.640 -> 17:01.460] staff around you. Sometimes you have people outside the club who have been
[17:01.460 -> 17:04.600] through it, the managers and that, you share a thought with them. You know, you
[17:04.600 -> 17:07.480] might have your team psychologist or club psychologist
[17:07.480 -> 17:11.400] who's helpful with that sort of period, you know. I mean, I was relying on myself,
[17:11.400 -> 17:14.920] I'm very open with my staff, we'd sit in on a morning meeting, we'd share a view on it,
[17:14.920 -> 17:19.040] this is the challenge, this is what's likely, or this is what I sense, you know, that's
[17:19.040 -> 17:23.520] coming our way, what can we do about it? And at times, I get, you know, a bit, I
[17:23.520 -> 17:48.200] remember once we had, we called it new manager thinking, because everyone said, this is the group, we can't do anything about it. And I said, well, we got it. That's our job. So I said, right, what would a new manager, you know, if I'm now a new manager, I've disappeared, new manager walks in, I guarantee you do something different, you would absolutely do something different. So I said, let's make a list. So we did, we made a list, a literal list, went right, what are we right what we're gonna do different We went bang and we started going through it. What was on it? Change the manager the staff said
[17:50.160 -> 17:52.160] Some of the simple stuff you can imagine them
[17:52.360 -> 17:56.440] Let's take him out for a bit of bonding whatever that may be, you know, the old school will be down the perp now
[17:56.440 -> 17:57.240] That's not so relevant
[17:57.240 -> 18:03.000] But I don't know clay pigeon shoe in or go car in or sometimes just dinner, you know different dinner
[18:03.120 -> 18:05.320] Thank for a walk instead of training,
[18:05.320 -> 18:07.320] little quirky things.
[18:07.320 -> 18:09.240] Some were changing training times,
[18:09.240 -> 18:10.280] some were changing the environment,
[18:10.280 -> 18:13.320] we started painting walls and getting different signage.
[18:13.320 -> 18:16.020] And not always big things, just little subtle cues,
[18:16.020 -> 18:17.200] just things that you catch, you know,
[18:17.200 -> 18:18.800] and players, oh, you know, start remarking it,
[18:18.800 -> 18:21.080] changing the presentations of the players before a game,
[18:21.080 -> 18:23.880] because we had a pretty solid way of working.
[18:23.880 -> 18:27.520] We already do the site profiles on them, site profiles on them, the basic site
[18:27.520 -> 18:30.160] profiles, the learning styles and all that thing, we've discussed that before.
[18:30.160 -> 18:33.040] So we already knew some of that knowledge, tapped in some of that, right.
[18:33.040 -> 18:33.720] What can we give them?
[18:33.720 -> 18:34.920] That's going to stimulate them.
[18:35.600 -> 18:37.720] Um, and then also stimulate the staff.
[18:37.720 -> 18:38.640] You know, what are we doing?
[18:38.720 -> 18:39.320] What are we doing?
[18:39.320 -> 18:42.680] You know, we look at ourselves, what about changing ways of training,
[18:42.680 -> 18:45.680] changing feel of training and all these types of things.
[18:45.680 -> 18:51.160] So, yeah, so we tagged it new manager thinking and then we sort of went through that process a few times.
[18:51.160 -> 18:56.120] I was there for nine and a half years. So this came up, you know, every few years when we're like, right, okay.
[18:56.120 -> 19:03.200] And sometimes I would give you the opposite example was when we went into Europa League, the game schedule,
[19:03.200 -> 19:05.440] everything changes, but equally the players.
[19:05.440 -> 19:11.920] It was the first time I saw Burnley players with that little bit of, you know, I've arrived, you know, and I was like, whoa, hang on a minute.
[19:11.920 -> 19:15.760] And we got to Christmas, 19 games, halfway point, and we had 12 points.
[19:15.760 -> 19:22.400] So I went the opposite way and just stripped it all back and went, right, we've lost sight of what the reality of being at Burnley is, lads.
[19:22.400 -> 19:24.480] And basically went back to hard work.
[19:24.480 -> 19:26.320] You know, we can hide it all you want.
[19:26.320 -> 19:28.640] I'll show you the stats, I'll show you the facts.
[19:28.640 -> 19:31.480] Hard work brings an edge and that edge gets us results.
[19:31.480 -> 19:33.760] And we went right back to basics.
[19:33.760 -> 19:34.920] But here's a question for you then,
[19:34.920 -> 19:37.440] that the power of that simplicity is great,
[19:37.440 -> 19:40.360] but so then if you utilize that,
[19:40.360 -> 19:43.720] you also have the danger of you're badged as a dinosaur,
[19:43.720 -> 19:46.680] that you're not embracing all these other new fads
[19:46.680 -> 19:47.780] or buzzwords as well.
[19:47.780 -> 19:49.880] So how do you find that sweet spot
[19:49.880 -> 19:52.060] between keeping things simple
[19:52.060 -> 19:54.760] and the clarity that you know works,
[19:54.760 -> 19:58.000] and yet still trying to pander to that modern mindset
[19:58.000 -> 20:00.640] of feeling that they do need all these bells and whistles?
[20:00.640 -> 20:01.480] I think some of it,
[20:01.480 -> 20:03.480] I think when you're growing as a manager
[20:03.480 -> 20:05.880] and you're getting a bit more
[20:10.320 -> 20:14.400] recognized is you leave that alone a little bit because you go look you're gonna be putting your box You know look how I look look how I sound I'm probably gonna live in a pretty simple box
[20:14.400 -> 20:19.720] You know it suggests you just get on and you do that, but players don't forget you're looking at your players
[20:19.720 -> 20:24.480] I know there's more to it your staff know there's more work involved than what people would imagine so that's good you go right
[20:24.480 -> 20:25.740] Okay, who do I really need to
[20:25.740 -> 20:29.660] worry about? Well I need to worry about them. It only gets in your skin when some
[20:29.660 -> 20:32.940] of these managers come over, best managers, you know, they're all tacticians and yet
[20:32.940 -> 20:36.460] you find out all they do is run them to death, you know, and you just go well hang on,
[20:36.460 -> 20:40.140] if that was me I probably would get tagged with that. But then the work
[20:40.140 -> 20:43.100] still needs getting done, so you go well whether they're tagging you with that or
[20:43.100 -> 20:45.840] them with that is irrelevant, the fact is the work still needs getting done. And
[20:45.840 -> 20:48.240] you know, the biggest thing that clears any stories up is when you win and you
[20:48.240 -> 20:53.520] win a lot. It's interesting how football can be so disparaging of a certain style
[20:53.520 -> 20:57.280] of play, even when it's successful. I wonder whether that's something that has
[20:57.280 -> 21:00.680] frustrated you over the years, like you don't manage 10 years at one football
[21:00.680 -> 21:03.840] club unless you're a bloody good football manager. Yeah, it's another thing, you
[21:03.840 -> 21:06.460] know, brands and all that sort of stuff, branding football,
[21:06.460 -> 21:10.240] you know, the biggest thing, I keep hearing that word diversity all over here now around
[21:10.240 -> 21:15.000] football, rightly so, obviously with a lot going on, you know, issues in life, diversity
[21:15.000 -> 21:19.120] for diversity and then all you ever hear from inside of football, if you're not a media
[21:19.120 -> 21:22.840] viewer, is everyone should play the same way, we've all got to play sort of like Barcelona,
[21:22.840 -> 21:23.840] let's say, you know.
[21:23.840 -> 21:28.000] My view, and we definitely have discussed this before, but I think it's a relevant point.
[21:28.000 -> 21:33.000] If I've got to get the best out of you, I've got to come out with a format that will give you the best chance to be the best you.
[21:33.000 -> 21:36.640] That's just, that's got to be logical. So I always look at it like that.
[21:36.640 -> 21:40.940] And the best example, I mentioned earlier, but Kieran Trippier, I remember saying in an interview, I said,
[21:40.940 -> 21:43.840] Kieran Trippier can land the football anywhere on the football pitch.
[21:43.840 -> 21:47.440] Honestly, he's got that much talent, but you want me to only allow him to play
[21:47.440 -> 21:51.700] ten yards, I said, I'm doing him a disservice, I'm actually taking away from his career by
[21:51.700 -> 21:55.400] saying no, no, I only want you to pass it ten yards to that. Now, if you've got a team
[21:55.400 -> 21:59.600] of players, how do you give them the best chance of them being successful? Because every
[21:59.600 -> 22:03.600] player wants to be successful, trust me. Of course, if you can do it by playing fantastic,
[22:03.600 -> 22:06.480] amazing football, like Man City doing that, well that's
[22:06.960 -> 22:08.960] fantastic, but not many can.
[22:09.000 -> 22:14.840] And it's that really tricky situation now and I feel for the younger managers because they're almost under pressure to tell the world
[22:15.000 -> 22:17.000] they're gonna play the right way and
[22:17.000 -> 22:22.240] then they're sacked within six months and you go, imagine how many people in nine and a half years I've heard say
[22:22.240 -> 22:25.900] we're gonna play the right way and do the right thing and then they get sacked. I mean, you're talking...
[22:25.900 -> 22:28.600] Well, what is the right... isn't the right way winning games of football?
[22:28.600 -> 22:30.400] Yeah, but that's the big debate, isn't it?
[22:30.400 -> 22:32.400] How can you make it entertaining?
[22:32.400 -> 22:35.200] That's got to be a point of principle, it always was.
[22:35.200 -> 22:37.800] More so now, there's more demand for that.
[22:37.800 -> 22:41.300] But I would argue, is entertaining having 400 passes in your own six-yard box?
[22:41.300 -> 22:43.200] I'm not sure that's that much entertainment.
[22:43.200 -> 22:46.760] For me, I've been in football all my life, I love the game, I'm going not quite sure I
[22:46.760 -> 22:48.200] wanna watch that every week.
[22:48.200 -> 22:52.400] Well I was thinking of you Sean, recently because I knew we were gonna meet and I was reading,
[22:52.400 -> 22:57.520] have you read the book by Arigo Saki, where he talks about that Milan period of the
[22:57.520 -> 23:05.000] late 80s, 90s and it's called The Invincibles and he talks about having to come in where he was a, he wasn't a footballer himself and he was going into Mae'n cael ei gynnal fel y Ddiddorolion. Ac mae'n siarad am mynd i mewn,
[23:05.000 -> 23:08.000] pan naeth e i fod yn chwaraewr ffotbolaeth,
[23:08.000 -> 23:10.000] ac roedd e'n mynd i mewn i ystafell ddrethio o Hulley
[23:10.000 -> 23:13.000] a Van Basten a Beraisey,
[23:13.000 -> 23:15.000] ac roedd e'n rhaid iddynt ddod i mewn i'r cwmni.
[23:15.000 -> 23:16.000] Ac roedd e'n siarad am ei ddwy ffynonellion,
[23:16.000 -> 23:20.000] a oedd, un, mae angen i ni weithio'n fwy ag unrhyw un arall,
[23:20.000 -> 23:21.000] ac roedd e'n ddweud, a'r ddaudd,
[23:21.000 -> 23:22.000] a'n mynd i fwyna gêm.
[23:22.000 -> 23:28.100] Ac yna fe wnaeth e'i structurio'n ffynonell cyfan. Roedd ei ffilosofi yn seiliedig ar yr hyn sydd gennyn nhw o ran ei gilydd. and then his second one was, and then we need to win games. And then he structured his whole format. His philosophy was based on what he had around him.
[23:28.100 -> 23:30.200] They were his two principles of working hard and winning.
[23:30.200 -> 23:35.800] And then it was about, he didn't come in with a defined philosophy, if you like, beyond that.
[23:35.800 -> 23:41.600] Well, I think, I think the modern manager is under pressure to come out with a philosophy.
[23:41.600 -> 23:43.800] That's another key word, you know, everyone's got to have a philosophy.
[23:43.800 -> 23:45.360] Like, I think, you know, you're Adele Arden unless you have a philosophy. I've never key word, you know, everyone's got to have a
[23:43.240 -> 23:46.560] philosophy. I think,
[23:45.360 -> 23:48.160] you're a dullard unless you have a
[23:46.560 -> 23:49.360] philosophy. I've never quite understood
[23:48.160 -> 23:52.160] that. It's a game of football at the end of the
[23:49.360 -> 23:56.200] day, by the way. But I think there is that.
[23:52.160 -> 23:58.360] I think to use that word, I think you're under
[23:56.200 -> 23:59.720] pressure to sort of, you know, put that
[23:58.360 -> 24:02.200] out there before you've done anything,
[23:59.720 -> 24:04.040] when actually the real, well in my
[24:02.200 -> 24:05.840] way of similar thinking actually, is
[24:04.040 -> 24:06.860] that how do you know until you get in there and you know what you're working with?
[24:06.860 -> 24:10.640] Yeah. Now we can all imagine it's a bit easier,
[24:11.300 -> 24:17.880] not easier to get the outcome, but easier if you're walking into, follow Pep into Barcelona, right? They're all top.
[24:18.660 -> 24:21.180] But what about and now you're a division one club?
[24:21.180 -> 24:21.680] Yeah.
[24:21.680 -> 24:25.880] And you've sort of got to come out with a philosophy and you don't even know the quality of the players you're working
[24:25.880 -> 24:30.520] with but you're gonna decide to tell whoever this is the philosophy. Doesn't
[24:30.520 -> 24:34.280] actually make that much sense because in any other business you go in find out
[24:34.280 -> 24:37.640] what is available and then you'd go probably and present to the board and go
[24:37.640 -> 24:41.440] right this is what I think but in football if you get what I mean you've
[24:41.440 -> 24:57.000] got to go out and tell them what you think when you don't even know what's in the camp. So when you get invited to apply for your next job, you're having to go in and persuade people that do love that talk of a philosophy and they do want to appease the fans.
[24:57.000 -> 25:08.600] How do you go about persuading them just to hand over the keys for you to then come in and adapt to what you've got. I mean because of years of service in the Premier League for myself I'd like to
[25:08.600 -> 25:12.920] think that if you're already got to a point of being in an interview
[25:12.920 -> 25:16.960] process they must have thought no I think he was doing what he had to do
[25:16.960 -> 25:20.640] because of the groups he worked with maybe the financial constraints you know
[25:20.640 -> 25:24.520] so he's moulded a situation to the best of what they could do because
[25:24.520 -> 25:26.900] don't forget if you are gonna change, I'll go back to that word,
[25:26.900 -> 25:31.100] if you're going to change your philosophy, unlikely you can change it one-sided, you know.
[25:31.700 -> 25:36.200] You could change your philosophy, you need like two-thirds of a team to change your whole philosophy.
[25:36.600 -> 25:40.800] If you go long ball or pass in, right, you're not going to do that with one player.
[25:41.000 -> 25:43.200] Highly unlikely. Do you get what I mean?
[25:43.200 -> 25:43.600] – Yeah, yeah.
[25:43.600 -> 25:45.400] – So therefore, if you've got to change a whole
[25:45.400 -> 25:49.320] situation to change that, then, therefore,
[25:49.320 -> 25:50.960] back to your point, if I'm sitting in an interview,
[25:50.960 -> 25:52.400] but I'd like to think they're going, right,
[25:52.400 -> 25:53.920] okay, did he ever have a chance to do that?
[25:53.960 -> 25:54.480] No.
[25:55.480 -> 25:57.040] Did he mould something the best he could?
[25:57.040 -> 25:57.320] Yeah.
[25:57.320 -> 25:59.040] Was there times when it probably looked better
[25:59.040 -> 25:59.680] than we thought?
[25:59.680 -> 26:00.080] Yeah.
[26:00.320 -> 26:01.920] Got to Europe, you can't do that by just kicking
[26:01.920 -> 26:02.560] the ball down the pitch.
[26:02.560 -> 26:03.400] It's impossible, by the way.
[26:03.400 -> 26:03.520] Yeah.
[26:03.520 -> 26:04.120] That doesn't happen.
[26:04.640 -> 26:07.520] So, you'd like to think they've done their own when they go. Yeah, actually with our group
[26:08.400 -> 26:11.320] Would he probably look at things differently if I'm being totally honest?
[26:11.320 -> 26:13.200] I think we love to put people in boxes, right?
[26:13.200 -> 26:17.840] So we would go um, what job is there available at the moment? Oh, that's a Sean Dice job
[26:17.840 -> 26:21.300] Oh, yeah, that's a Jose Mourinho job, you know, like I'll be alright. It's good company
[26:22.480 -> 26:22.980] I'll be alright, it's good company, I'm gonna accept that. Exactly.
[26:22.980 -> 26:25.240] He's a good company, I'll accept that. I'll do what he's done.
[26:25.240 -> 26:26.680] But do you understand what I mean by that?
[26:26.680 -> 26:27.180] Yeah.
[26:27.180 -> 26:30.980] You would go in and manage Manchester City in a completely different way to how you managed Burnley.
[26:30.980 -> 26:37.980] Yeah, but you're not gonna, you can spend so much time and energy on trying to kick the wolves out of that box.
[26:37.980 -> 26:41.280] What's the point? People put you in, that's life, you know what I mean?
[26:41.280 -> 26:44.980] So, I gave up that coach years ago. I didn't really bother that much.
[26:44.980 -> 26:45.960] If you look down my history, I've never really bothered that much. People say, oh you play this, so I gave up that coast years ago. I didn't really bother that much if you look down my history
[26:45.960 -> 26:50.620] I've never really bothered that much people. So you play this I've gone. Yeah, okay. Did it bother you in the beginning? I
[26:51.540 -> 26:54.080] Think only bothers you when other managers get involved
[26:54.080 -> 26:55.780] I think when the media game off that's their job
[26:55.780 -> 27:00.960] The job is to put you in box or to use simple terminologies and sell whatever they're selling
[27:00.960 -> 27:04.040] But they would know the managers come out and say sometimes you're like really
[27:04.040 -> 27:09.120] I mean, you know what we're working with and I know what you're working with and that's when you do go
[27:09.160 -> 27:10.520] Come on, you know
[27:10.520 -> 27:14.880] I mean, there's a bit just be suppose a bit more fairer with your views or a bit more respectful with your views
[27:14.880 -> 27:17.060] And I think that sometimes irks you a little bit
[27:17.060 -> 27:19.000] It doesn't so much as you longer in the tooth
[27:19.000 -> 27:20.360] But when you're in the early days
[27:20.360 -> 27:25.160] Would you ever be tempted like if
[27:22.880 -> 27:27.640] that burn the situation came up again
[27:25.160 -> 27:30.280] when new owners came in where you can see
[27:27.640 -> 27:32.800] I'll resign now rather than try and
[27:30.280 -> 27:35.360] work in a new different model? Well my
[27:32.800 -> 27:37.720] thought which I always explain to the
[27:35.360 -> 27:39.520] boards I've worked with was as long as you
[27:37.720 -> 27:41.000] tell me the truth of the guidelines
[27:39.520 -> 27:42.520] parameters that I've got to manage I'll
[27:41.000 -> 27:43.920] manage it. I didn't like it when they
[27:42.520 -> 27:47.280] tell you this and then not deliver or
[27:43.920 -> 27:45.120] you know sort when they tell you this and then not deliver or, you know,
[27:45.920 -> 27:47.720] sort of basically tell you myths.
[27:47.840 -> 27:49.200] You know, just tell me the truth.
[27:49.200 -> 27:51.360] Just tell me the truth of what you want me to manage.
[27:52.040 -> 27:56.880] So I think if you've got that as a level to work from, it's when, it's when, you
[27:56.880 -> 27:59.880] know, it doesn't really happen to me too badly to be fair, but I know managers
[27:59.880 -> 28:01.640] have been told, yeah, we're going to do all this.
[28:02.240 -> 28:05.280] And then they get into the job and they go, oh no, we're not doing any of that.
[28:05.360 -> 28:08.680] And you go, now they're in a position where they're like, what, how do you
[28:08.680 -> 28:13.080] expect me to do what you said you wanted me to do when we agreed this and you'll
[28:13.080 -> 28:13.640] give me that?
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[30:30.880 -> 30:32.520] So you're in this, having been at Burnley
[30:32.520 -> 30:33.800] and done such a good job for so long,
[30:33.800 -> 30:36.240] you're suddenly in this slightly alien environment
[30:36.240 -> 30:38.860] where you feel the lack of renewal among the squad.
[30:38.860 -> 30:41.560] You feel a few changes from the new owners
[30:41.560 -> 30:43.100] and it all comes together.
[30:44.520 -> 30:45.900] What about you personally?
[30:45.900 -> 30:50.600] Like the only real value for this is for you to reflect on what you could have done better as a leader.
[30:51.200 -> 30:57.800] What is different about the Sean Dyche that walks back into a football dressing room in the next few months from what you went through in this period?
[30:58.300 -> 31:00.700] I think you reinvigorate just naturally.
[31:00.700 -> 31:03.600] So I came out, I wasn't, I didn't think I was the energized.
[31:03.600 -> 31:08.680] I wasn't, didn't feel overwhelmed with pressure. I wasn't didn't feel overwhelmed with pressure I came up okay that's the way
[31:08.680 -> 31:13.040] it is my immediate feeling was okay part of that didn't get involved wasn't
[31:13.040 -> 31:15.640] watching every bit in the game and all that I wished him well I didn't want him
[31:15.640 -> 31:19.120] to go down I said no no you know it gets popular belief by the way because I'm
[31:19.120 -> 31:22.400] like hang on we put nine and a half years effort into that so why would I
[31:22.400 -> 31:25.040] want it to go down. How did it feel the day they went down?
[31:25.040 -> 31:30.360] Just like, bit sort of in there, 30% of your ego kicks in you go well
[31:30.360 -> 31:34.440] shouldn't have changed it but 70% of me go hang on it's crafted me rear off for
[31:34.440 -> 31:37.280] nine and a half years amongst many others so why do you want it to fail now?
[31:37.280 -> 31:40.640] I don't want it to fail, why would you want that? I prefer someone to get
[31:40.640 -> 31:43.560] older what we did and then take it in further and then you go right because
[31:43.560 -> 31:45.920] they'll remember that they go well without them it wouldn't have even
[31:45.920 -> 31:51.920] been there. You'd have kept them up? Yeah just because though not because I've got magic dust
[31:51.920 -> 31:55.200] just because we'd had a tough period but we were coming into eight games on paper
[31:55.200 -> 31:59.600] with one of the best periods of the season and we'd sort of bottomed
[31:59.600 -> 32:04.120] out of it sometimes you can you can tell it when you sort of hit a bottom and you
[32:04.120 -> 32:07.380] know it's almost like lads come on you know, I mean we're better than that type thing
[32:07.560 -> 32:11.120] But it's easy for me to say that as if I'm honestly gonna see her go now
[32:12.160 -> 32:14.760] That's how it right amount say yes, but I do believe it
[32:14.760 -> 32:19.200] Did you try and fight it then when they I mean, I don't even know how it works when a manager loses his job
[32:19.200 -> 32:21.800] I don't mind telling you because it was so simple Alan Pace
[32:22.480 -> 32:25.560] Said can I come in and see you early? Alarm bell starts going,
[32:25.560 -> 32:26.080] obviously,
[32:26.080 -> 32:27.320] unusual.
[32:27.640 -> 32:29.320] I popped in the gym like I normally did.
[32:29.320 -> 32:29.920] He comes out.
[32:29.920 -> 32:30.840] Did you think that was it then?
[32:30.840 -> 32:31.240] Hey,
[32:31.240 -> 32:31.880] everything all right?
[32:31.880 -> 32:32.080] Yeah,
[32:32.080 -> 32:32.240] yeah,
[32:32.240 -> 32:32.520] yeah.
[32:32.520 -> 32:33.520] We're going to make a change.
[32:33.600 -> 32:34.120] Okay.
[32:35.520 -> 32:35.880] You know,
[32:35.880 -> 32:36.640] for what reason?
[32:36.640 -> 32:36.920] Well,
[32:36.920 -> 32:37.200] you know,
[32:37.200 -> 32:39.040] just feel as it was two days before a game.
[32:39.320 -> 32:39.960] What did they say?
[32:39.960 -> 32:40.480] Strange reason.
[32:40.480 -> 32:41.200] Well,
[32:41.200 -> 32:41.480] you know,
[32:41.480 -> 32:42.640] we just feel it's right to.
[32:42.840 -> 32:43.680] I've been sitting on it.
[32:44.640 -> 32:44.920] I said,
[32:44.920 -> 32:49.920] okay. I said, just be respectful of people's situations contracts and all that. That's the way it goes
[32:49.920 -> 32:53.840] And I said, did you mind me talking to the staff? He said no, do you want me to come and quit me with the players?
[32:53.840 -> 32:55.960] He said no, I said, okay
[32:55.960 -> 32:56.520] I wish you well
[32:56.520 -> 33:01.160] But if you compare it to a relationship like you'd like to think that if you were
[33:01.480 -> 33:04.360] Like with your partner if you ever thinking of leaving
[33:05.360 -> 33:09.080] that if you were like with your partner if you ever thinking of leaving that have been warning shots before that that have been conversations of we worried
[33:09.080 -> 33:13.040] there this isn't working and you know you're on the edge like you're on the
[33:13.040 -> 33:17.040] edge that you can have that conversation that Jake's suggesting which way which
[33:17.040 -> 33:20.440] way you open to get reaction so some some managers coaches could really
[33:20.440 -> 33:23.760] suffer with that some might go right but the end of the day you're still going
[33:23.760 -> 33:25.100] right for other people.
[33:25.100 -> 33:26.660] You still got to stimulate other people.
[33:26.780 -> 33:27.060] Yeah.
[33:27.140 -> 33:29.300] You might still be, I was perfectly stimulated.
[33:29.300 -> 33:30.700] I'm looking around my group going, right,
[33:30.700 -> 33:31.700] who's going to come with me?
[33:31.940 -> 33:34.140] You know, who's going to, who's, who's going
[33:34.140 -> 33:36.020] to pick up the mantle at the minute?
[33:36.020 -> 33:38.060] Who is going to thrive off this?
[33:38.100 -> 33:38.720] There's a few.
[33:39.440 -> 33:40.660] I mean, I'll give you an example.
[33:40.660 -> 33:41.660] I thought it was terrific.
[33:41.700 -> 33:43.940] James Tarkowski, he was out of contract.
[33:44.360 -> 33:48.980] Trust me, he was on it. He was right on it. You was right on it you know he was going right lads hey come on
[33:48.980 -> 33:52.840] and I thought fair play to you you know you're playing hard you're playing doing
[33:52.840 -> 33:57.640] what you can you know good or bad but the fact is you're on it and I thought
[33:57.640 -> 34:03.080] fair play. What's the role of self-doubt in this situation because you've done
[34:03.080 -> 34:05.400] so much. I've never really suffered too bad with that, you know.
[34:05.400 -> 34:06.400] No, because I just think...
[34:06.400 -> 34:09.200] You're not sort of thinking, why I can always find the answer at Burnley,
[34:09.200 -> 34:10.600] why can I not find the answer?
[34:10.600 -> 34:14.000] Sometimes you look in where you need other people to help you find the answer
[34:14.000 -> 34:15.200] and usually the players.
[34:15.200 -> 34:17.000] You know, sometimes you need, come on then,
[34:17.000 -> 34:18.600] you've asked a lot of me,
[34:18.600 -> 34:21.000] I think I've delivered a lot over our time together,
[34:21.000 -> 34:24.800] whether that be personal for you as an individual and your contracts and all that,
[34:24.800 -> 34:27.500] come on then, it's payback time. Sometimes I pay you back,
[34:27.500 -> 34:30.940] sometimes I don't, you know what I mean? But there's no blame with that, they're human
[34:30.940 -> 34:35.020] beings, you know, we'd stimulate, we'd miracles out of some of these players,
[34:35.020 -> 34:39.340] you know what I mean? I think, and drops out, rinsing drops and drops and drops,
[34:39.340 -> 34:42.740] and them themselves by the way, you know, once you put them in the right direction,
[34:42.740 -> 34:45.160] they run with it. So there has to be reality sometimes, but I've nearly, I don't themselves by the way you know once you put them in the right direction they
[34:43.400 -> 34:48.040] run with it so there has to be reality
[34:45.160 -> 34:50.200] sometimes but nearly I don't really
[34:48.040 -> 34:52.400] suffer too badly with self-doubt if if I
[34:50.200 -> 34:54.640] think the works getting done I think the
[34:52.400 -> 34:56.800] work is getting short code or we are I'm
[34:54.640 -> 34:58.600] short cutting or the staff that's
[34:56.800 -> 35:00.920] different then I go whoa hang on we
[34:58.600 -> 35:02.440] gotta look ourselves I don't think we
[35:00.920 -> 35:05.040] were lacking the work I think we just
[35:02.440 -> 35:07.800] this is the defining thing that's very, very difficult to explain it.
[35:07.800 -> 35:11.760] That X factor, that inch that takes the difference.
[35:11.760 -> 35:13.120] And you'll have seen it, you'll have watched
[35:13.120 -> 35:14.640] certain performances, not just football,
[35:14.640 -> 35:15.720] you'll all have watched it, I don't know,
[35:15.720 -> 35:16.880] it might be athletic, and you think,
[35:16.880 -> 35:19.160] ooh, I can't, through a TV screen,
[35:19.160 -> 35:20.240] it's like your brain does that thing
[35:20.240 -> 35:21.640] where you go, I can feel it.
[35:21.640 -> 35:23.280] And equally, when they're on it, you go,
[35:23.280 -> 35:26.960] oh, they're flying, they're gonna win this, they're gonna win this they're gonna do it the whole feel of a
[35:26.960 -> 35:30.320] performance you know what I mean yeah we all do it by the way it's just that when
[35:30.320 -> 35:33.800] you're in football and you do it as long as me you can smell it and see it and
[35:33.800 -> 35:37.780] feel it quicker that's all it is and it sounds so idyllic what you're doing now
[35:37.780 -> 35:41.640] right so why go back in because it as you've already said it is a game full of
[35:41.640 -> 35:46.000] opinion it is a game that loves to twist what you say or apply the pressure.
[35:46.000 -> 35:48.000] Well, I don't think I go back into anything.
[35:48.000 -> 35:52.000] You know, there was a time in my life when you probably just have to get your next job.
[35:52.000 -> 35:54.000] Maybe you want to come out of Watford. I don't think I have to do that.
[35:54.000 -> 35:57.000] I certainly don't financially. That's not a clever comment.
[35:57.000 -> 35:59.000] You can all imagine the Premier League is just one of them leagues.
[35:59.000 -> 36:01.000] It looks after you and people around you.
[36:01.000 -> 36:06.240] So there's none of that pressure, which is a nice position to have as regards thinking about jobs.
[36:06.240 -> 36:06.440] You know,
[36:06.440 -> 36:08.520] you're not under pressure to be pushed into a job.
[36:08.800 -> 36:09.680] But to be honest,
[36:09.680 -> 36:10.920] I've been in it all my life,
[36:10.920 -> 36:11.160] you know,
[36:11.160 -> 36:12.600] and it is a thing.
[36:12.600 -> 36:13.520] Football is a thing.
[36:13.520 -> 36:14.000] It's not,
[36:14.320 -> 36:14.760] you know what I mean?
[36:14.760 -> 36:15.320] The win,
[36:15.320 -> 36:17.920] the love of football is a different thing for me.
[36:17.920 -> 36:18.680] I love the winning.
[36:18.680 -> 36:20.040] I love the management,
[36:20.040 -> 36:21.080] I love the organizing,
[36:21.080 -> 36:25.480] I love the idea of giving more to someone else to allow them to have a career that
[36:25.480 -> 36:28.280] hopefully is beyond my career as a player.
[36:28.760 -> 36:31.880] I like that, I like that feedback from that, you know what I mean?
[36:31.880 -> 36:36.920] I mean, Kieran Trippier, he FaceTimed me when they won La Liga, he FaceTimed me off the pitch.
[36:36.920 -> 36:37.800] I mean, that is...
[36:37.800 -> 36:38.680] – When they won the title?
[36:38.680 -> 36:41.560] – Yeah, and I'm just like, Tripp's what on earth, you know what I mean?
[36:41.560 -> 36:43.440] That means so much to me.
[36:43.800 -> 36:45.980] I'm just going like, you know, cause he knows
[36:45.980 -> 36:47.820] that I had a reaction with him and him with
[36:47.820 -> 36:48.980] me where it rubbed off on him.
[36:49.460 -> 36:50.420] And that means a lot to me.
[36:50.420 -> 36:52.420] Things that mean as much to me as all sorts
[36:52.420 -> 36:53.940] of different things that happen in my career.
[36:54.220 -> 36:57.420] So building that rapport, not just him,
[36:57.420 -> 36:58.820] ex-players, you know, I get messages from
[36:58.820 -> 37:00.580] ex-players, gaffer, thanks for, you know,
[37:00.580 -> 37:01.940] this, thanks for that and all that.
[37:02.140 -> 37:03.740] That means a lot, I think, you know what I
[37:03.740 -> 37:03.980] mean?
[37:03.980 -> 37:07.960] And I really like that side of, not not not just the love of the game so much
[37:07.960 -> 37:13.480] But then you know people doing something good by people is a good situation, and I really like that so
[37:14.000 -> 37:15.400] That's a bit of a drug of mine
[37:15.400 -> 37:19.600] You know what I mean when you really feel like you're connected with someone you've given them a chance not just me my staff
[37:19.600 -> 37:27.480] The the environment the culture you know it's not always just a me and you thing, but I really like that. I think you've rubbed off on someone and affected them,
[37:27.480 -> 37:29.080] I think that's a really powerful thing.
[37:29.080 -> 37:32.120] And I think it's great that you're not sitting here feeling burned or feeling
[37:32.120 -> 37:35.960] scorned or disillusioned with the game, because I think it, from the outside, I
[37:35.960 -> 37:39.640] think it's very odd to remove a manager with a decade's worth of experience at
[37:39.640 -> 37:43.720] a football club with eight games to go, with the riches of the Premier League on
[37:43.720 -> 37:49.400] the line, and replace them with novices, right? It feels like no other business in the land does that outside
[37:49.400 -> 37:53.600] of football. And I think then it's easy for you to feel disillusioned with the game, but
[37:53.600 -> 37:56.280] I get the impression that that's not the emotion at all.
[37:56.280 -> 37:58.240] Steve McLaughlin No, I've always had a good value of things
[37:58.240 -> 38:03.320] being reality bound, you know, it's from my parents, it was like, you know, be reality
[38:03.320 -> 38:05.000] bound, you know, know the situation you're in. As long as you know, be reality
[38:03.360 -> 38:06.480] bound, you know, know the situation you're
[38:05.000 -> 38:08.560] in. As long as you know the situation you're in,
[38:06.480 -> 38:11.280] and we all know football, I certainly do,
[38:08.560 -> 38:12.800] it can be a very taxing, very unfair
[38:11.280 -> 38:14.960] business, but it can be an amazing
[38:12.800 -> 38:18.200] business as well. So I know what it's
[38:14.960 -> 38:20.360] like. My story is minimal compared to some
[38:18.200 -> 38:22.520] stories I've heard. You know, managers
[38:20.360 -> 38:23.880] getting mad stuff happen to them, you know
[38:22.520 -> 38:26.040] what I mean? Their minds pretty low
[38:23.880 -> 38:27.300] compared to that. So I go, right, okay, what's the reality of the job I'm in?
[38:27.300 -> 38:29.300] Can it go pear-shaped? Can you lose games?
[38:29.300 -> 38:31.500] I've been saying for years at Burnley, not a negative,
[38:31.500 -> 38:34.500] I said, my day will come just because that's the way football works, you know.
[38:34.500 -> 38:38.800] One day, people just get bored with your rhetoric and they go, right, we want change.
[38:38.800 -> 38:41.300] You're right, I'm not, there's no anger or anything.
[38:41.300 -> 38:43.300] There wasn't at first either, there wasn't.
[38:43.300 -> 38:48.600] I genuinely mean it, I just went, okay, that's the way it goes. Doesn't mean I was happy about it either by the way. Let's make that clear
[38:49.240 -> 38:51.640] But you spend a long time being you know
[38:51.640 -> 38:56.280] Thinking you've been hard done by in your life and it drains it drains the life out of you all that. Saps the life out of you
[38:56.280 -> 38:58.740] If you get too much into that world of woe is me
[38:59.920 -> 39:04.240] Saps the life out of you. That de-energize you for your life, let alone your profession
[39:04.240 -> 39:08.560] So that technique you said there about talking about knowing that the end will come one day,
[39:08.560 -> 39:13.280] for whatever the reason is, is that a technique that you would ever use,
[39:13.280 -> 39:17.200] say at the start of a season, to say what could get us relegated here?
[39:17.200 -> 39:21.680] And you almost face the worst case scenario and then plan backwards from there?
[39:22.480 -> 39:26.000] More the case, the opposite of that actually, We more look at the successful side and go,
[39:26.000 -> 39:29.000] right, how can we plan backwards from the outcome?
[39:29.000 -> 39:32.000] So what would be, not always with the players you understand,
[39:32.000 -> 39:35.000] because I've always, so another thing I've always been a little bit wary of,
[39:35.000 -> 39:36.000] it's not whether I believe in it or not,
[39:36.000 -> 39:38.000] is you know this idea of you should set goals.
[39:38.000 -> 39:40.000] What about when you don't achieve them goals?
[39:40.000 -> 39:41.000] How does that feel then?
[39:41.000 -> 39:43.000] It's always been, why can't we be open-minded?
[39:43.000 -> 39:46.480] Why can we not be open-minded to challenge ourselves for what comes next?
[39:46.480 -> 39:51.960] So, I never really did the thing with the players we need to finish there, but
[39:51.960 -> 39:56.040] equally how many layers can you put in place to allow them to finish
[39:56.040 -> 39:59.280] where they want to be? So that process I'd work, in order to see the
[39:59.280 -> 40:06.380] outcome backwards would be right, I think we should be achieving that. How are we going to get them to get
[40:06.380 -> 40:10.560] to a point of achieving that? Do you get what I mean? So not really the negative version
[40:10.560 -> 40:12.440] of it, but the positive version of it.
[40:12.440 -> 40:16.160] Because the reason I ask is often like when you hear managers, you know when they say
[40:16.160 -> 40:20.160] oh, the Christmas fixture list is crazy, and you go, didn't you know that at the start
[40:20.160 -> 40:21.160] of the season?
[40:21.160 -> 40:24.000] Yeah, I've never really bought into that. You must have seen my comments, I just go
[40:24.000 -> 40:28.980] hmm, what, two games, ooh, two games guys professional athletes, but I two games in three days. I'm going really well
[40:28.980 -> 40:32.100] They can't handle two games in three days when they're professional athletes. I'm like
[40:32.760 -> 40:38.520] Come on. They'll be alright. You know I mean with with amazing recovery now and dyer and support
[40:39.040 -> 40:43.680] Helpful if you've got five subs and the big squads and all that of course, but the point is come on
[40:43.680 -> 40:47.500] Yeah, come on. That's let's crack on, eh? You know, there comes a time, you know.
[40:47.500 -> 40:51.120] And can I ask you one question, like you've mentioned Kieran Trippier a few
[40:51.120 -> 40:55.000] times, so it's obvious you have... I don't like to mention favourites apart from Kieran.
[40:55.000 -> 40:59.200] What was it about him and your relationship that... Just I think he was,
[40:59.200 -> 41:02.600] we got him as a little butterball, he wasn't in the shape he needed to be in,
[41:02.600 -> 41:09.160] he listened... Was he from City when he... Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, he'd come in, sorry, he wasn't in the shape he needed to be in, he listened. Was he from City? Yeah, no no no no, he'd come in, sorry he was with Eddie, Howard brought him in, him
[41:09.160 -> 41:12.760] and Ben Mee sort of combined I think, I can't remember the truth, the whole story, sorry
[41:12.760 -> 41:15.920] not the truth, I think they came in combined.
[41:15.920 -> 41:20.440] Very talented young man, just a bit loose and a bit, you know, but he had a lovely edge
[41:20.440 -> 41:25.120] about him, he's a little lovable rogue. Not nothing. Nothing terrible not in big trouble
[41:25.120 -> 41:26.920] And it just got edge, you know what I mean?
[41:26.920 -> 41:31.360] And I really loved it on him and I just need to push him a little bit could you hold him a little bit?
[41:31.360 -> 41:33.640] He listened so therefore you build a real rapport
[41:34.120 -> 41:41.520] He did fantastic for us an amazing time at Burnley before he went to Tottenham and just always respected it and and now and again
[41:41.520 -> 41:44.600] He'd bring me for advisory and we just sort of kept in touch
[41:45.200 -> 41:47.700] Got to know a couple of his mates and his family a little bit
[41:47.700 -> 41:51.600] You know, he got me tickets for the euros and stuff like that. You know what I mean? So
[41:52.320 -> 41:56.440] Not all players are like that and some are like it but they they don't get us involved
[41:56.440 -> 42:02.280] Yeah, he still FaceTimes me now and again rings me, you know, I got for everything. All right, you know
[42:03.240 -> 42:05.800] Cool, what's happening trips, you know cool something trips you know we know
[42:05.800 -> 42:10.000] what your first sign it will be if you can get him yeah quick fire questions
[42:10.000 -> 42:13.760] and actually I got your answer to this from three years ago what are the three
[42:13.760 -> 42:17.080] non-negotiables that you and the people around you have to buy into and I'm
[42:17.080 -> 42:21.160] interested after what you've been through and the break you've had whether they will be any
[42:21.160 -> 42:25.680] different hard work could be one I know if I said that last time, but hard work.
[42:25.680 -> 42:28.160] One that's changed only because of recently,
[42:28.160 -> 42:30.480] and I know that I believe in it,
[42:30.480 -> 42:31.160] is alignment.
[42:31.160 -> 42:32.760] You know, that's a key for me.
[42:32.760 -> 42:35.000] Aligning, because when our alignment went wrong,
[42:35.000 -> 42:37.160] that definitely affected the outcome at Burnley.
[42:37.160 -> 42:38.360] You know, it started to go,
[42:38.360 -> 42:39.280] you know what I mean,
[42:39.280 -> 42:41.160] the straight line thinking throughout me,
[42:41.160 -> 42:43.080] the staff, the players started to go,
[42:43.080 -> 42:44.800] ooh, and I thought, so alignment,
[42:44.800 -> 42:46.800] hard work, alignment.
[42:47.960 -> 42:51.000] I think probably I still go back to things like honesty
[42:51.000 -> 42:53.280] and trust, I think that would still be a big thing for me.
[42:53.280 -> 42:55.600] Well, the previous ones were personal respect.
[42:55.600 -> 42:57.040] Ooh, respect, yeah, that's close.
[42:57.040 -> 42:58.360] Professional respect. That's in there with honesty,
[42:58.360 -> 42:59.200] to be fair.
[42:59.200 -> 43:00.040] And a great attitude.
[43:00.040 -> 43:00.860] Great attitude.
[43:00.860 -> 43:02.040] And then you went, ooh, actually, great attitude,
[43:02.040 -> 43:03.120] that should be number one.
[43:03.120 -> 43:04.160] Yeah, so that's about right.
[43:04.160 -> 43:09.020] So that sort of goes in with hard work, but a great attitude is everything. That was my Sunday League manager
[43:09.020 -> 43:11.020] Which is your greatest strength and your biggest weakness?
[43:11.640 -> 43:14.160] weakness is probably bit of not I'm not as
[43:15.100 -> 43:18.260] My style type of I could be a bit more gray at times. I tend to be
[43:19.000 -> 43:24.960] Like that black white black white black white black white and not everything is black and white. So that's a weakness. I would say
[43:25.720 -> 43:28.480] It's strength in a way obviously like anything yin and yang
[43:30.040 -> 43:37.480] Strength I think saw them things fair being pretty fair being fair respectful. Yeah, I'm pretty grounded
[43:37.480 -> 43:40.720] I think that's a key thing. My biggest strength has been authentic. I
[43:41.720 -> 43:46.360] Am like this whether me and you are chatting in the office having a
[43:44.760 -> 43:47.960] coffee or whether we're chatting in front
[43:46.360 -> 43:49.600] of the microphone or whether I'm chatting
[43:47.960 -> 43:51.400] with my mates back home I grew up with
[43:49.600 -> 43:53.440] or still hang around with from
[43:51.400 -> 43:56.400] I was five years old they're probably
[43:53.440 -> 43:58.600] gonna go he's still the geezer we've
[43:56.400 -> 44:00.480] known since we're five. So in the
[43:58.600 -> 44:02.680] spirit then of giving us hard
[44:00.480 -> 44:05.240] feedback that we can take rather than
[44:02.680 -> 44:05.160] the medium feedback what score would
[44:05.160 -> 44:08.080] you rate this interview and what could we've done better? I've enjoyed it I
[44:08.080 -> 44:14.000] think I enjoyed the last one I enjoyed the fact that it was more into the thing
[44:14.000 -> 44:16.560] behind I know it's called high performance of course but you know I mean
[44:16.560 -> 44:21.400] the thing behind tactics and all that that's the bit I think this is really
[44:21.400 -> 44:24.320] good at I'm not just saying that I really do think it is because there's a
[44:24.320 -> 44:25.920] story behind
[44:29.840 -> 44:36.140] Big on a performance they can go. Oh, yeah, but they they won the league or something You go right what's the story behind winning the league and it's very rarely as you both know very rarely about tactics and all that
[44:36.320 -> 44:38.080] It's about the fabric of what you do
[44:38.080 -> 44:44.120] The the construct of what you do that the people are involved the dynamic the mind dynamic the connection
[44:44.200 -> 44:45.040] All them things and I think the fact that you try and unravel and speak about that that the people are involved, the dynamic, the mind dynamic, the connection, all them
[44:45.040 -> 44:49.440] things. And I think the fact that you try and unravel and speak about that, which is
[44:49.440 -> 44:53.480] why I really enjoyed the first one I've enjoyed today, because that doesn't always get, and
[44:53.480 -> 44:57.720] I know why, people love fluff, don't they? They love it if I say something stupid about,
[44:57.720 -> 45:01.640] you know, I wear this or wear that, and you know, we sat in a river because we had a spin
[45:01.640 -> 45:06.440] wheel and all them things, and they're all fine, but at the end of the day, there's not that much substance on it, you know, this puts the meat because we had a spin wheel and all them things and they're all fine but the end of the day
[45:04.800 -> 45:07.720] is not that much substance on it you
[45:06.440 -> 45:09.040] know this puts the meat on the bone a
[45:07.720 -> 45:10.880] little bit. But then what could we have
[45:09.040 -> 45:12.920] done better Sean? Like we're hungry for
[45:10.880 -> 45:14.440] feedback? No no I don't think I'll be
[45:12.920 -> 45:16.000] honest you know because I'm not in your
[45:14.440 -> 45:17.200] world so I don't know it that well you
[45:16.000 -> 45:18.960] ask questions they've got to be pertinent
[45:17.200 -> 45:21.800] questions they are questions that can
[45:18.960 -> 45:23.560] open up things situation more clearly
[45:21.800 -> 45:25.080] because that's what I think people
[45:23.560 -> 45:25.960] want to be one and or people are into this sort of thing
[45:25.960 -> 45:30.120] I think or I imagine what I'm answering is they want to know a bit more depth to it
[45:30.120 -> 45:32.320] They want a bit more. What's the reality?
[45:32.320 -> 45:32.640] You know
[45:32.640 -> 45:36.480] Like I say there's bits of fluff and that can be really funny and I could tell you a million
[45:36.680 -> 45:40.640] Silly little quips and funny stories and all that. No, it's all good fun
[45:40.640 -> 45:41.920] And it kind of has its relevance
[45:41.920 -> 45:43.060] but I
[45:43.060 -> 45:45.080] Think that you know when you're doing this sort of thing,
[45:45.080 -> 45:47.160] I just think a bit more depth and a bit more meaning
[45:47.160 -> 45:49.040] allows us the chance as the coaches
[45:49.040 -> 45:52.040] to give a bit more to it and a bit more depth to it.
[45:52.040 -> 45:54.760] And that's not an easy thing.
[45:54.760 -> 45:56.200] And the other thing is listening.
[45:56.200 -> 45:58.200] I do watch that a lot with people.
[45:58.200 -> 46:00.080] So if I probably stopped you and said,
[46:00.080 -> 46:02.920] what I just say, you'd probably be able to tell me.
[46:02.920 -> 46:04.840] But so many of you, you do, you think you're not listening.
[46:04.840 -> 46:05.800] You're just doing a script
[46:05.800 -> 46:08.680] I play a lot now and again I do it, but it's nasty, you know
[46:12.240 -> 46:17.360] And your final point really for people listening to this your final message if you like, what would you describe
[46:17.840 -> 46:22.800] The place you are now in your life. What is your one golden rule to living a high-performance life?
[46:22.800 -> 46:27.000] But you know, I think it still goes back to hard work, great attitude, they're
[46:27.000 -> 46:31.240] things that whatever you do, I swear by it, it's something that's served me well, you
[46:31.240 -> 46:35.120] know I'm not gonna change certain things that I'm about, but still it'll be that
[46:35.120 -> 46:40.400] and of being authentic. I think whatever you are, there's so much drivel, I was
[46:40.400 -> 46:43.600] gonna swear then, I won't swear, but there's so much BS out there now.
[46:43.600 -> 46:46.680] Everyone's filling the airways full of, you know,
[46:46.680 -> 46:49.640] certain special clever words and clever sayings
[46:49.640 -> 46:51.400] and all that, and you need to do a bit of that,
[46:51.400 -> 46:52.960] because you don't get any buy-in unless you do it,
[46:52.960 -> 46:54.640] but some of it, you're like, come on.
[46:54.640 -> 46:55.480] You know what I mean?
[46:55.480 -> 46:57.360] You know, just be yourself.
[46:57.360 -> 46:59.640] I think, personally, I think that's a key thing.
[46:59.640 -> 47:01.760] I'm with you, I'm a bit Marmite,
[47:01.760 -> 47:05.720] so, myself is not everyone thinks I'm, you know, what I think I am, which
[47:05.720 -> 47:06.720] is great.
[47:06.720 -> 47:07.720] You know what I mean?
[47:07.720 -> 47:09.720] So, you know, I think that's, but being authentic.
[47:09.720 -> 47:10.720] I think that's the key.
[47:10.720 -> 47:11.720] Well, thank you for that.
[47:11.720 -> 47:15.040] Thank you for the insight and thank you for the substance behind the stories.
[47:15.040 -> 47:16.360] It's really enlightening for people.
[47:16.360 -> 47:17.360] No, really cool.
[47:17.360 -> 47:18.360] Really enjoyed it.
[47:18.360 -> 47:19.360] Damien.
[47:19.360 -> 47:20.360] Jake.
[47:20.360 -> 47:24.120] That was very interesting, wasn't it?
[47:24.120 -> 47:26.120] That, you know, it's so rare to get hold
[47:26.120 -> 47:30.400] of, you know, he's a top flight manager and waiting at the time that we recorded this,
[47:30.400 -> 47:34.960] he may well be in a job by the time people hear it. But for him to kind of go a little
[47:34.960 -> 47:40.040] bit deeper than we used to when it comes to what went on in management, I think is interesting.
[47:40.040 -> 47:44.840] And I think that now that it's you and I talking, we're not reading between the lines. It's
[47:44.840 -> 47:47.520] pretty clear, isn't it? that when the new owners came in,
[47:47.520 -> 47:49.080] they changed some of the structure.
[47:49.080 -> 47:51.000] And that just derailed things.
[47:51.000 -> 47:53.800] And we spoke with Frank about the same thing.
[47:53.800 -> 47:55.800] Alignment in life, as Sean said at the end,
[47:55.800 -> 47:58.640] alignment in life is something that we just take for granted
[47:58.640 -> 48:00.480] or don't assume is very important.
[48:00.480 -> 48:02.320] And he's a good example of what happens
[48:02.320 -> 48:03.800] when you lose that alignment.
[48:03.800 -> 48:07.340] Yeah, so in our first interview, we spoke about when he first came into
[48:07.340 -> 48:11.280] Burnley and he asked the board about when they'd been promoted for one season
[48:11.280 -> 48:14.960] and they'd squandered the money on players and he came in and said we
[48:14.960 -> 48:18.120] want to get into the Premier League and then stay there so it was about
[48:18.120 -> 48:22.440] improving facilities and leaving a club in a better place than where we'd
[48:22.440 -> 48:29.060] inherited it. So we came in and he had that alignment then and I was reminded of a famous quote from the boxing coach
[48:29.060 -> 48:33.320] Angelo Dundee that said that you should always have a look in your dressing room
[48:33.320 -> 48:37.280] at who's there when you've got beat because everybody wants to be in your
[48:37.280 -> 48:42.260] corner when things are going well but when things start to go wrong I thought
[48:42.260 -> 48:45.760] is that observation of that misalignment starts to manifest itself in loads of things start to go wrong, I thought is
[48:42.480 -> 48:47.360] that observation of that misalignment starts to
[48:45.760 -> 48:49.360] manifest itself in loads of different
[48:47.360 -> 48:51.240] ways, people distancing themselves,
[48:49.360 -> 48:53.880] gossiping behind your back, telling
[48:51.240 -> 48:56.320] stories. So the consequences of not
[48:53.880 -> 48:58.640] having it are huge as Sean found to his
[48:56.320 -> 49:01.280] cost. Yeah, I thought it was very
[48:58.640 -> 49:03.840] interesting when he, when he went into all
[49:01.280 -> 49:05.960] of the ways that it unraveled at
[49:03.840 -> 49:05.400] Burnley for him and he
[49:05.400 -> 49:08.360] didn't really give us the answer to this but I wonder how much he's thinking
[49:08.360 -> 49:12.280] about how he dealt with that and whether he should have and could have done more.
[49:12.280 -> 49:17.020] Yeah I mean that example that where we spoke about when the moment where he was
[49:17.020 -> 49:20.520] dismissed in the gym where the guy came and just said it's not working we're
[49:20.520 -> 49:24.280] gonna let you go and I was thinking if that was in a relationship like I said
[49:24.280 -> 49:28.560] that you'd have probably had warning signs in the months before it or
[49:28.560 -> 49:32.000] why wouldn't an owner go and have a conversation with his manager and say do
[49:32.000 -> 49:35.520] we need to make a change what are you going to do give us a plan how can we
[49:35.520 -> 49:39.400] work together the fact that those conversations don't happen probably
[49:39.400 -> 49:43.440] again comes back to that lack of alignment which then... Do you think after
[49:43.440 -> 49:45.520] ten years maybe he
[49:45.520 -> 49:50.680] actually deep down felt you know what maybe this is the right time so he
[49:50.680 -> 49:55.480] didn't fight it when it came? Yes I do I think maybe it's that that old saying
[49:55.480 -> 49:59.280] that if you can't change the people change the people maybe he felt that it
[49:59.280 -> 50:10.880] was him that needed to be changed and maybe that was appropriate but I think sometimes in life it's almost about knowing when we do need to get out, our exits are just as
[50:10.880 -> 50:15.480] important as entrances, whether that's in a job, whether that's in a
[50:15.480 -> 50:20.760] business or a culture, sometimes I think knowing when maybe our race is run and
[50:20.760 -> 50:24.600] it needs a new voice coming in is a really important characteristic.
[50:24.600 -> 50:28.240] And after the conversation about putting people in boxes it will be interesting
[50:28.240 -> 50:34.120] to see what and which club gives him the opportunity won't it? Yeah and I think I
[50:34.120 -> 50:39.160] hope interviews like this go some way to helping challenge perceptions you know
[50:39.160 -> 50:45.880] like that conversation we had with Saul Campbell about trying to just get people to see a slightly
[50:45.880 -> 50:52.600] broader perspective and challenge their own presuppositions or judgments that they've
[50:52.600 -> 50:58.080] made can be really helpful and I think the Sean Dice that any new club is getting is
[50:58.080 -> 51:03.240] a far better coach than the one that came into Burnley and was incredibly successful
[51:03.240 -> 51:04.240] nine years ago.
[51:04.240 -> 51:05.200] Thanks mate. Thanks mate.
[51:05.200 -> 51:06.200] Thanks Jake.
[51:06.200 -> 51:11.720] Well there we go, look as always a huge thanks goes to you for growing and sharing this podcast
[51:11.720 -> 51:12.720] among your community.
[51:12.720 -> 51:16.840] Look I know we were joined today by a football manager but it wasn't really a football conversation,
[51:16.840 -> 51:21.360] it was a conversation about life, it was a conversation about learning through struggle
[51:21.360 -> 51:29.040] and failure and the fact that sometimes taking time out reflecting and pausing is the best thing that we can do. So I would love you just to
[51:29.040 -> 51:32.880] share this episode with someone. It's the single most important thing you can do for us. Just stick
[51:32.880 -> 51:36.320] it in a WhatsApp group, tell your friends about it, mention high performance, I don't know,
[51:36.880 -> 51:41.920] shout it from the rooftops because it really does make a huge difference to us. Remember,
[51:41.920 -> 51:45.960] there is no secret, it is all there for you. So chase World Class Basics.
[51:46.080 -> 51:47.520] Don't get high on your own supply.
[51:47.920 -> 51:50.520] Remain humble, curious and empathetic.
[51:51.120 -> 52:06.480] And we'll see you soon. Bye!