Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 09 Jan 2023 00:00:40 GMT
Duration:
1:04:30
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Mark Manson is a bestselling author best known for his book The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F**k, selling over 10 million copies worldwide. This episode dives deep into what it means to lead a great life, exploring questions such as, how to focus on the things we care about and shut out the rest? How to create a sense of purpose? How to prevent suffering more than you need to? They delve into parenting, asking the question: should we tell our kids they are special?
Mark opens up about the deep depression he faced after publishing his first book and his experience of burnout. They discuss his belief that it feels better to be racing for success, rather than being successful. He acknowledges that although life won’t be easy, we should focus on making it manageable. This episode examines what it means to live a meaningful life.
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck has been turned into a cinematic piece and is available on demand now. #SubtleArtMovie
Warning: Explicit language used
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### Podcast Episode Summary: A Conversation with Mark Manson on Living a Great Life
**Key Points:**
- Mark Manson, author of the bestselling book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck," emphasizes the importance of focusing on what truly matters and letting go of the rest.
- He shares his experience of depression after the success of his first book and discusses the concept of "altitude sickness" faced by individuals who achieve sudden success.
- Manson highlights the significance of accepting letdowns and failures as learning opportunities rather than setbacks.
- He challenges the myth that everyone is special, emphasizing that most people are ordinary and that accepting this reality can lead to a healthier mindset.
- Manson suggests praising children for their efforts rather than their innate qualities to foster a healthy self-image.
- He acknowledges that success is not always a positive experience and that it's essential to understand that there's no ultimate moment of achievement.
- Manson discusses the concept of "hedonic treadmill," where people constantly chase happiness without ever feeling truly satisfied.
- He shares Will Smith's experience of "altitude sickness" after achieving rapid success in the entertainment industry.
- Manson emphasizes the importance of giving oneself time to process success, maintaining a sense of perspective, and learning to say no to opportunities that don't align with one's values.
**Overall Message:**
Mark Manson's insights challenge conventional notions of success and happiness, encouraging individuals to embrace a more realistic and fulfilling approach to life. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on what truly matters, accepting failures as learning experiences, and appreciating the ordinary aspects of life.
# Podcast Episode Summary:
**Title:** How to Live a Great Life: Lessons from Mark Manson
**Guest:** Mark Manson, Author of "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck"
**Key Points:**
1. **Focus on What You Care About:**
- Identify what truly matters to you and prioritize those things.
- Avoid getting caught up in activities that don't align with your values.
- Be willing to say no to opportunities that don't excite you.
2. **Create a Sense of Purpose:**
- Find a long-term goal or aspiration that motivates you.
- Break this goal down into smaller, manageable steps.
- Celebrate your progress along the way.
3. **Prevent Unnecessary Suffering:**
- Recognize that some suffering is unavoidable, but much of it is self-inflicted.
- Challenge negative thoughts and beliefs that contribute to your suffering.
- Practice self-compassion and acceptance.
4. **Parenting and Self-Esteem:**
- Avoid telling children they are special or unique.
- Instead, focus on teaching them resilience, self-reliance, and the value of hard work.
- Help children develop a healthy sense of self-worth based on their actions and accomplishments, not external validation.
5. **Dealing with Depression and Burnout:**
- Depression can be a result of feeling like you're constantly racing for success.
- Burnout can occur when you exceed your capacity for tasks you don't genuinely care about.
- Take breaks and time off when you need them.
- Be discerning about the projects and commitments you take on.
6. **Manson's Law of Avoidance:**
- We tend to resist anything that challenges our self-definition.
- This can include both negative and positive challenges.
- Delusional positivity can be useful in overcoming resistance to new opportunities.
7. **The Importance of a Well-Rounded Identity:**
- Avoid investing your entire identity in one pursuit.
- Cultivate a diverse range of interests and goals throughout your life.
- This will help you adapt to setbacks and maintain a sense of fulfillment.
8. **Dave Mustaine's Cautionary Tale:**
- Dave Mustaine, a founding member of Metallica, was kicked out of the band before their first album.
- He used this setback as motivation to form Megadeth and achieved great success.
- However, he still felt like a failure because Metallica was more successful.
- This highlights the importance of defining success on your own terms.
9. **Key Behaviors for Success:**
- Authenticity: Be true to yourself and your values.
- Respect: Treat others with kindness and consideration.
- Compassion: Understand and empathize with the struggles of others.
10. **Learning from Dreams:**
- A dream where a deceased friend asked, "Why are you sorry I'm dead when you're still so afraid to live?" had a profound impact on Mark Manson.
- This dream reminded him of the fragility of life and the importance of living each moment to the fullest.
**Overall Message:**
Living a great life involves focusing on what you care about, creating a sense of purpose, and preventing unnecessary suffering. It also requires a well-rounded identity, the ability to overcome challenges, and a commitment to authenticity, respect, and compassion.
# High Performance Podcast Episode Summary: Mark Manson on Creating a Meaningful Life
**Key Points:**
- Mark Manson, author of the bestselling book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F**k," shares his insights on leading a great life.
- Manson emphasizes the importance of focusing on the things that matter and letting go of the rest.
- He also discusses the concept of "racing for success" versus "being successful," arguing that the former often leads to burnout and dissatisfaction.
- Manson believes that a meaningful life is one in which we overcome challenges and find fulfillment in the journey, rather than just reaching the destination.
- He encourages parents to avoid telling their children that they are special, as this can set them up for failure and unrealistic expectations.
- Manson shares his experience of deep depression after publishing his first book and his journey to overcome burnout.
- The podcast also touches on the idea of "choosing your hard," emphasizing the importance of selecting challenges that align with our values and passions.
- Manson highlights the paradox of choice, explaining that having too many options can lead to unhappiness and decision paralysis.
- He emphasizes the importance of embracing life's difficulties and finding gratitude in the small moments.
**Overall Message:**
Mark Manson's message is that a meaningful life is not about achieving a problem-free existence but rather about embracing life's challenges and finding fulfillment in the journey. He encourages listeners to focus on what truly matters, let go of unrealistic expectations, and appreciate the small moments of happiness.
**Additional Notes:**
- The podcast episode also includes a discussion of Manson's upcoming cinematic adaptation of "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F**k."
- Listeners can subscribe to the High Performance Podcast on YouTube or follow them on Instagram and Facebook.
- The podcast also has a book club and a Telegram channel for further engagement.
[00:00.000 -> 00:06.620] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance and I'm very excited to
[00:06.620 -> 00:12.580] bring you this episode at the start of 2023. This podcast reminds you that it's within
[00:12.580 -> 00:17.580] your ambition, your purpose, your story are all there. We just help unlock it by turning
[00:17.580 -> 00:22.820] the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. And don't
[00:22.820 -> 00:26.080] forget if you want this podcast in a live
[00:26.080 -> 00:30.360] theatre setting, the most amazing show we've put together for you, then we are touring
[00:30.360 -> 00:39.040] the UK this year. Just check out the highperformancepodcast.com forward slash live 2023 or just search for
[00:39.040 -> 00:43.480] high performance podcast live tour. I'd love to see you on the road because the conversations
[00:43.480 -> 00:45.060] we're going to be having like this one today
[00:45.520 -> 00:51.840] Are so helpful for you right now myself and professor Damien Hughes are speaking to a man who I believe is one of the brightest
[00:52.080 -> 00:56.120] thinkers and writers on the planet today we welcome
[00:56.640 -> 00:58.440] Mark Manson
[00:58.440 -> 01:03.720] honestly, when when subtle art blew up and became number one on all the bestseller lists and
[01:04.320 -> 01:05.760] Was huge in a bunch of
[01:05.760 -> 01:11.280] different countries, I was the most depressed I had been probably since I was a teenager.
[01:12.400 -> 01:18.640] You've defined yourself in one way that is extremely comfortable and feels secure. And
[01:18.640 -> 01:25.720] then when somebody comes and offers you a huge opportunity, that completely negates a lot of the narratives that you've been basing
[01:25.720 -> 01:31.880] your life on. To me, psychologically speaking, it feels much better to be at the bottom of
[01:31.880 -> 01:36.880] a mountain because you have nothing to lose and you get to enjoy that process of learning
[01:36.880 -> 01:41.480] and climbing and improving and seeing the gradual success.
[01:41.480 -> 01:46.360] I can't tell you how much of a fan of Mark Manson's thinking and writing I am. If you're
[01:46.360 -> 01:50.320] not sure who he is, he is the number one New York Times bestseller, the subtle art of not
[01:50.320 -> 01:55.280] giving a f***. And everything is f***ed, which is actually a book about hope. And what he
[01:55.280 -> 02:00.920] says on his website is that he writes life advice that is science based, pragmatic, and
[02:00.920 -> 02:07.920] non bullshitty. So basically life advice that doesn't suck. Because, he believes that your great life which is what it should be your life should be
[02:07.920 -> 02:14.220] great is not made great by a bigger house and a new car and a promotion and
[02:14.220 -> 02:17.880] looking amazing and all of your wonderful clothes. Your great life is
[02:17.880 -> 02:21.420] actually achieved by focusing on the things that you really care about just
[02:21.420 -> 02:25.160] the things you really care about and blocking out things you really care about, and blocking out the rest.
[02:25.160 -> 02:28.480] He knows that a great life is not just about an easy life.
[02:28.480 -> 02:31.520] Like actually, you need to understand that sometimes,
[02:31.520 -> 02:34.320] life is gonna be a real challenge for you, okay?
[02:34.320 -> 02:37.000] So how do you create a sense of purpose
[02:37.000 -> 02:39.440] that helps you push through the pain?
[02:39.440 -> 02:41.400] How do you actually not look at huge problems
[02:41.400 -> 02:46.240] but actually see them as small, easily copable situations.
[02:46.240 -> 02:50.440] How do you make better choices every day? And how do you actually not suffer in advance
[02:50.440 -> 02:54.440] as the Stoics would say? How do you make sure that even though there is inescapable pain
[02:54.440 -> 02:59.360] in life, that you don't suffer more than you should? I believe that Mark is the kind of
[02:59.360 -> 03:04.940] guy that can get you closer to a life of resilience. And he will talk about his feelings in this
[03:04.940 -> 03:06.520] podcast, which I've never heard
[03:06.520 -> 03:09.480] him talk about before, where he said he had depression after the
[03:09.480 -> 03:13.400] success of his first book, he goes deep into burnout, we talk
[03:13.400 -> 03:16.160] about adjusting our attitudes towards failure. It's a really,
[03:16.160 -> 03:19.200] really fascinating conversation. I'm so pleased that you are
[03:19.200 -> 03:23.040] starting 2023 in the company of the High Performance Podcast.
[03:23.040 -> 03:26.480] And today you started in the company of the High Performance Podcast and today you start it in the company of Mark Manson.
[03:26.480 -> 03:34.040] On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a better way so you can
[03:34.040 -> 03:39.840] live a better life and that's why when I found Mint Mobile I had to share. So Mint Mobile ditched
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[05:03.880 -> 05:15.640] See Mint Mobile for details. Well, Mark, welcome to High Performance. Let's start as we always do. In your mind, what
[05:15.640 -> 05:17.160] is high performance?
[05:17.160 -> 05:21.440] Mark Willis I think high performance is simply living
[05:21.440 -> 05:25.400] up to your own aspirations and expectations for yourself.
[05:25.400 -> 05:27.400] And how do you do that?
[05:27.400 -> 05:29.400] That's a much longer answer.
[05:29.400 -> 05:31.400] Yep.
[05:31.400 -> 05:36.000] I think it's easier to talk about all the ways we don't do that.
[05:36.000 -> 05:41.000] You know, we lie to ourselves, we trick ourselves, we think short term instead of long term,
[05:41.000 -> 05:49.760] we don't take care of our bodies, we don't take care of our minds. You know, there's a million reasons that we fail to live up to our own hopes and aspirations for
[05:49.760 -> 05:54.240] ourselves. And for all the work that you've done, right, have you actually managed to work out why
[05:54.240 -> 05:59.840] human beings do this? Like, for example, why do people need the high-performance podcasts? You
[05:59.840 -> 06:05.080] know, like, they're magic and amazing and brilliant enough. Why do our brains trick
[06:05.080 -> 06:07.400] us into this negativity all the time?
[06:07.400 -> 06:18.180] Our minds did not evolve for necessarily finding truth or achieving success or reaching expectations.
[06:18.180 -> 06:46.680] Our minds evolved to help us survive. And the psychological functions that helped us survive on the savannah are the same psychological functions that screw us up, you know, when it comes time to, you know, maybe pass on that that drink or go to bed early or not doom scroll on social media. It's just, we're operating with hardware that evolved hundreds of thousands
[06:46.680 -> 06:49.800] of years ago. It's not adapted to our current environment.
[06:49.800 -> 06:52.840] Steve Marconi We're both huge fans of your book, both the
[06:52.840 -> 06:56.720] first one and the follow-up book on hope. But one of the questions that really jumped
[06:56.720 -> 07:01.160] out to me that I've always wanted to ask you was something that we sometimes get accused
[07:01.160 -> 07:08.080] of on this podcast, which is delusional positivity. The idea that you're almost like you're feeding people
[07:08.080 -> 07:11.080] false hope, this narrative.
[07:11.080 -> 07:14.920] And I'm interested in exploring your views on that.
[07:14.920 -> 07:17.080] I definitely should on delusional positivity
[07:17.080 -> 07:17.840] quite a bit.
[07:17.840 -> 07:21.680] But there's a fine line between.
[07:21.680 -> 07:27.560] Because I think it's probably useful to be irrationally optimistic at times. Like
[07:27.560 -> 07:31.940] there's all sorts of science that shows that, you know, people who expect better things
[07:31.940 -> 07:37.220] for themselves tend to achieve better things for themselves. But there's a fine line between
[07:37.220 -> 07:42.860] kind of being overly optimistic or overestimating yourself versus just being outright detached
[07:42.860 -> 07:52.900] from reality, which can hurt you with, you can hurt you. So it's trying to understand where that line is and being able to walk it effectively.
[07:52.900 -> 07:57.460] So tell us where you've learned that line is and some of the lessons about walking along
[07:57.460 -> 07:59.900] it that can help us.
[07:59.900 -> 08:07.200] It's useful to have maybe irrationally high hopes or expectations for yourself, but as soon as reality
[08:07.200 -> 08:12.000] disagrees with that, you need to be willing to accept reality. I think that's where people run
[08:12.000 -> 08:17.040] into trouble is they have these huge expectations for themselves and then when reality doesn't meet
[08:17.040 -> 08:22.000] it, they just kind of lie to themselves and try to convince themselves that reality is meeting it.
[08:22.000 -> 08:25.840] I think a lot of this comes back to being comfortable with
[08:25.840 -> 08:31.200] with failure or like if you are going to consistently have very, very high expectations
[08:31.200 -> 08:37.440] for yourself, you also need to be prepared to feel let down regularly for not living up to those
[08:37.440 -> 08:43.200] expectations. And so if you can get comfortable with that letdown and keep trying and don't let
[08:43.200 -> 08:45.920] it deter you or demotivate you. You know,
[08:45.920 -> 08:51.280] like that seems to be the secret sauce is like expecting a lot, not hitting it, but
[08:51.280 -> 08:53.840] not being deterred from not hitting it and trying again.
[08:53.840 -> 08:58.400] I think I've probably made a life mark out of being delusionally positive. Honestly,
[08:58.400 -> 09:04.120] I honestly do. I think the only reason I'm talking to you now is because I am delusionally
[09:04.120 -> 09:05.440] positive. And yes, sometimes it can cause me problems. But the way I think the only reason I'm talking to you now is because I am delusionally positive.
[09:05.440 -> 09:10.040] And yes, sometimes it can cause me problems. But the way I live is like, I meet like I
[09:10.040 -> 09:13.360] meet you now. And I don't just think we'll do a quick recorded mark and we'll be done.
[09:13.360 -> 09:16.200] I'm like, right, I could do a quick recorded mark. And then if I get his number, I could
[09:16.200 -> 09:19.240] be over in the States. And we could talk about a follow up film to the one that he's just
[09:19.240 -> 09:23.000] released. And I've got this production company, we might do that. We'll probably end up on
[09:23.000 -> 09:28.400] holiday in Hawaii somewhere in a few years time. He might teach me to surf and I might become the godparent to his
[09:28.400 -> 09:33.760] kid. Like that is how my mind operates, right? Everything is going to be incredible. Everyone's
[09:33.760 -> 09:37.680] going to offer an amazing opportunity. Every business idea is going to be the one that flies.
[09:38.720 -> 09:44.480] Admittedly, 80% of the time, right? It's a letdown. But the joy for me is I know that the 20%
[09:44.480 -> 09:46.320] of the time that
[09:46.320 -> 09:50.000] it doesn't let me down, it leads to something brilliant. You know, this podcast was only
[09:50.000 -> 09:54.360] born out of being delusionally positive that people would fucking bother to listen to the
[09:54.360 -> 09:59.080] thing. Like if I had any sense of normality, I'd be like, of course people don't care that
[09:59.080 -> 10:04.440] an ex kids TV presenter is going to hook up with a professor and try and talk about mindset.
[10:04.440 -> 10:08.880] It's just ridiculous. So I can see there's something great about it. Do you know what I mean?
[10:08.880 -> 10:15.600] No, I agree with that. Like, and again, I think it's, it's useful to dream big. I think
[10:15.600 -> 10:20.060] when it comes to like projecting a future, it's very, very useful. I think where it trips
[10:20.060 -> 10:30.560] people up is when they hold on to it in the present, you know? It's like, imagine if you started this podcast and yeah, nobody listened to it, but you went around acting as though you're
[10:30.560 -> 10:37.680] like Joe fucking Rogan and, you know, like that's where you run into trouble.
[10:37.680 -> 10:41.200] Yeah.
[10:41.200 -> 10:48.040] So break it down for us then, Mark. So you talk about this living with disappointment as a secret sauce.
[10:48.040 -> 10:52.480] So tell us some of the ingredients of this secret sauce and that people listening to
[10:52.480 -> 10:58.640] it can build into their lives while still retaining some of the optimism that Jake speaks
[10:58.640 -> 11:00.240] about.
[11:00.240 -> 11:03.920] I think it's important to not let yourself be deterred or demotivated.
[11:03.920 -> 11:10.920] I think a lot of it comes back to how you interpret that letdown process, right? Like if something
[11:10.920 -> 11:18.480] doesn't work, are you judging yourself? Are you making like evaluative judgments on your
[11:18.480 -> 11:22.680] own personal value? You know, it's like, oh, I tried to start a podcast. Nobody listened
[11:22.680 -> 11:29.680] to it. I'm such a loser. Nobody cares what I think. Like, is that the story that you're spinning up to explain the failure? Or
[11:30.960 -> 11:35.680] are you explaining it in different ways? Like, okay, well, maybe I need to become a better
[11:35.680 -> 11:41.040] presenter. Maybe I'm not talking about topics that people care about. Maybe I could express
[11:41.040 -> 11:45.920] my ideas better. Maybe I could prepare for the show better. I think that that is
[11:45.920 -> 11:52.320] a huge component of learning from those disappointments, learning from those failures. You know, okay,
[11:52.320 -> 11:58.320] I hoped that this podcast was going to be a huge thing. It's not. But if I fix X, Y,
[11:58.320 -> 12:03.280] and Z and improve it A, B, and C, maybe in another year it will be. And you know, you
[12:03.280 -> 12:05.560] keep the dream alive, so to speak.
[12:05.560 -> 12:10.840] See, I, one of my issues with this sort of stuff is that I think a lot of, I don't want
[12:10.840 -> 12:14.720] to say young people, because it makes me sound old, but it also like categorises everyone
[12:14.720 -> 12:18.920] together. Okay, but I do see this in the younger people that I have in my life. I mean, there's
[12:18.920 -> 12:22.520] a couple of people in particular I can think of, right, who keep on saying to me, this
[12:22.520 -> 12:27.600] is going to be the year when everything changes. This is and they put it on their social media, like a ridiculous photo of them,
[12:27.600 -> 12:32.320] like with their arms folded, staring into the distance saying, you know, 2023, time
[12:32.320 -> 12:35.240] to catch the vibe or something like that. I'm thinking, what does that actually mean?
[12:35.240 -> 12:39.800] And then when I'm with them, the behaviours are the same. The work ethic is the same.
[12:39.800 -> 12:44.400] The ideas are the same. The people they're surrounded with are the same, but the plans
[12:44.400 -> 12:45.280] are totally
[12:45.280 -> 12:49.760] different. I think there is a conversation for us to have here about, and it's brilliant
[12:49.760 -> 12:53.600] that you talk about it in your film, that a whole generation of people who want more
[12:53.600 -> 12:58.160] from the world than they're willing to put into the world. And I think this is a conversation
[12:58.160 -> 13:02.680] we should discuss about. It's great to have grand, bold, brilliant, huge, amazing ambitions
[13:02.680 -> 13:07.360] and want the best for yourself, but your behaviours and your hard work has to marry that up, right?
[13:07.360 -> 13:08.480] Ben Willis
[13:08.480 -> 13:13.360] It's a lesson that all of us have to learn at some point when we're young. I think that
[13:13.920 -> 13:19.440] few of us just naturally understand that things take a lot of time and things take a lot of
[13:19.440 -> 13:26.460] sacrifice. And there's a very long, gradual learning process to becoming excellent at anything.
[13:26.460 -> 13:27.400] You know, when you're young,
[13:27.400 -> 13:28.860] you don't totally understand that.
[13:28.860 -> 13:32.740] You really do think, you know, if you just show up,
[13:32.740 -> 13:34.740] like amazing things are gonna happen for you.
[13:34.740 -> 13:38.580] And so that first disillusionment that happens,
[13:38.580 -> 13:39.780] it's tough for young people,
[13:39.780 -> 13:43.020] but I think it's also very important to learn that lesson.
[13:43.020 -> 13:46.340] It's also a problem I run into in this industry in general,
[13:46.340 -> 13:51.060] which is it's much easier to sell the idea of something
[13:51.060 -> 13:54.420] than to actually help people go and do it.
[13:54.420 -> 13:56.180] Because nine times out of 10,
[13:56.180 -> 13:58.480] going and doing it is not fun, it's not sexy.
[13:58.480 -> 14:02.180] It involves a lot of very boring, tedious things
[14:02.180 -> 14:06.200] that don't translate well on Instagram. Or you could just sell
[14:06.200 -> 14:10.480] the idea. You can create a meme or a beautiful sunset with a quote, you know, and it's like
[14:10.480 -> 14:15.120] and you'll go viral because everybody likes to feel that way. I do think there's a little
[14:15.120 -> 14:21.120] bit of an issue in the self-help industry in general in differentiating between are
[14:21.120 -> 14:30.440] we actually helping people perform to use the word that you guys use or are we just helping them people feel good about
[14:31.240 -> 14:33.240] Potentially performing better in the future
[14:33.840 -> 14:41.240] So one of the things that I love about your writing is when you talk about this myth that we're told in education that we're all
[14:41.400 -> 14:42.520] special
[14:42.520 -> 14:49.600] And and I love the fact that that's a myth that you're determined to help us perceive in a
[14:49.600 -> 14:50.800] different way.
[14:50.800 -> 14:53.880] Would you explain a little bit more about that, Mark?
[14:53.880 -> 14:59.800] First of all, most of us are not extraordinary at anything.
[14:59.800 -> 15:08.040] And even if we are extraordinary at one thing, chances are we're very, very ordinary
[15:08.040 -> 15:12.080] at the other 500 things that we do in our life.
[15:12.080 -> 15:15.200] So it's like, even if you are Leonel Messi
[15:15.200 -> 15:16.520] or somebody like that,
[15:17.560 -> 15:20.640] you're still probably a very average father.
[15:20.640 -> 15:22.480] I mean, and this is no knock on Messi,
[15:22.480 -> 15:24.720] I'm just kind of pulling him out of a hat here,
[15:24.720 -> 15:28.260] but it's like, you're probably an average or slightly above average father
[15:28.260 -> 15:32.900] You're probably you know average or slightly above average or like managing your finances
[15:32.900 -> 15:38.540] You're probably like it's all these things that we deal with in our day-to-day lives
[15:39.820 -> 15:46.080] We're all very very normal like the average across all of the experiences that we have is
[15:46.080 -> 15:51.200] that we are going to be very un-extraordinary at most of the things we do. And so,
[15:52.960 -> 16:01.120] as a culture, we overly obsess and overly focus on the few extraordinary performers and trying to
[16:01.120 -> 16:05.720] be extraordinary at one thing ourselves. And obviously, there's a lot of value in that. I don't want to knock that. I think it's good to try to be extraordinary at one thing ourselves. And obviously, there's a lot of value in that.
[16:05.720 -> 16:07.360] I don't want to knock that.
[16:07.360 -> 16:10.160] I think it's good to try to be extraordinary at something.
[16:10.160 -> 16:12.160] But I also think it's important to be realistic
[16:12.160 -> 16:14.800] about the vast majority of our life
[16:14.800 -> 16:19.800] is going to be very, very ordinary and very mundane.
[16:20.360 -> 16:21.440] And we're going to screw up
[16:21.440 -> 16:24.160] in very ordinary and mundane ways.
[16:24.160 -> 16:25.520] And to not judge ourselves for that,
[16:25.520 -> 16:28.200] and not judge others for that.
[16:28.200 -> 16:32.800] And it's healthier overall to have that mindset.
[16:32.800 -> 16:34.160] It's a real challenge though, isn't it?
[16:34.160 -> 16:37.080] Because in the modern world, you click on Instagram,
[16:37.080 -> 16:37.920] what do you see?
[16:37.920 -> 16:40.520] Good looking people doing fricking awesome things
[16:40.520 -> 16:42.240] in beautiful countries.
[16:42.240 -> 16:46.080] And I'm trying to get my daughter to go to the toilet a bit quicker so
[16:46.080 -> 16:48.800] we're not late for the school run or something. And it does
[16:48.800 -> 16:54.520] leave you going, really? Is this it? So I wonder what messaging
[16:54.520 -> 16:56.640] you think is the healthy messaging to give our kids
[16:56.640 -> 16:58.800] because have you got children Mark? I don't think you have,
[16:58.800 -> 17:01.880] but maybe I do not know. So Damien and I have both got kids
[17:01.880 -> 17:05.080] and you know, I will be totally honest that every
[17:05.080 -> 17:10.280] day I'm like, Florence, Seb, remember, you're special. Remember, you're the most special
[17:10.280 -> 17:14.120] person in your class. Be the light in the room. There's something really unique about
[17:14.120 -> 17:17.720] you. You're going to live an amazing life. Maybe that's not healthy to tell them all
[17:17.720 -> 17:21.720] that because actually maybe they get to 25 and go, my dad told me this life was going
[17:21.720 -> 17:28.200] to be amazing and I was special. What was he talking about? Not that I don't think they are, but it's a tricky one.
[17:28.200 -> 17:33.440] I mean, that's kind of the reputation millennials have, right? Or like what we used to get ragged
[17:33.440 -> 17:38.240] on, you know, 10, 15 years ago is like, I mean, my generation, like growing up, I was
[17:38.240 -> 17:43.080] told I was special and unique and extraordinary and blah, blah, blah. And I hadn't done a
[17:43.080 -> 17:45.840] fucking thing. There is some research I have seen on this. And I hadn't done a fucking thing. There is some
[17:45.840 -> 17:51.960] research I have seen on this. And I believe what it says is that generally speaking, you
[17:51.960 -> 17:59.120] want to compliment your kids for effort, not for necessarily like who they are. Like, so
[17:59.120 -> 18:03.240] you don't want to you don't want to tell them like, Oh, you're so smart. You're so talented.
[18:03.240 -> 18:08.960] You're so brilliant. Before they've done anything, you want them to do something and then say, you were so
[18:08.960 -> 18:10.520] brilliant at that.
[18:10.520 -> 18:12.800] You were so talented at that.
[18:12.800 -> 18:19.400] So it's almost like you praise the action, not their identity.
[18:19.400 -> 18:23.720] You're holding up a fair old mirror to us here, Mark.
[18:23.720 -> 18:26.640] So we host a podcast called High Performance.
[18:26.640 -> 18:31.640] And we advocate that high performance is within
[18:33.240 -> 18:34.920] for all of us, we can go after it.
[18:34.920 -> 18:37.300] And I'm thinking of a quote that we had
[18:37.300 -> 18:41.800] from a Formula One racing driver called Mark Webber,
[18:41.800 -> 18:43.920] an Australian guy that we sat down and interviewed.
[18:43.920 -> 18:49.600] And he said, average is easy, that's why it's popular. It's making me go back and question whether
[18:50.800 -> 18:55.360] that is the right kind of message that we should be putting out there. What's your view on that to
[18:55.360 -> 19:01.520] us? I think it's a great question. So I think we're talking about two slightly different things
[19:01.520 -> 19:05.160] here. You know, what I talk about in my book
[19:05.160 -> 19:07.680] and this whole thing about being extraordinary,
[19:07.680 -> 19:10.980] it has more to do with self-image and self-esteem.
[19:10.980 -> 19:13.320] Because one of the problems that I see,
[19:13.320 -> 19:15.040] and again, particularly in young people,
[19:15.040 -> 19:16.760] is that they kind of have this idea of like,
[19:16.760 -> 19:20.800] well, if I'm not doing this amazing thing
[19:20.800 -> 19:23.200] in this amazing country and posting it on Instagram,
[19:23.200 -> 19:24.280] I'm a loser.
[19:24.280 -> 19:27.560] It's a self-evaluation thing.
[19:27.560 -> 19:33.000] The truth of the matter, though, is that as we all enter adulthood, as we all get careers
[19:33.000 -> 19:39.440] and jobs and have goals and dreams, you do want to be well above average at something
[19:39.440 -> 19:47.320] in your life, whether it's being a Formula One race car driver or, you know, being the best insurance
[19:47.320 -> 19:53.000] broker at your agency, right? Like you, everybody wants to excel at something. And I think it's
[19:53.000 -> 20:00.460] once you have that orientation towards pursuing something that it's not about self image or
[20:00.460 -> 20:05.080] self esteem, but it's more about basically you have a healthy relationship
[20:05.080 -> 20:08.640] with that activity in your life. You know, it's like I want to be the best writer I can
[20:08.640 -> 20:15.360] be. I want to excel at it. I want to be a high performing author, but I don't judge
[20:15.360 -> 20:21.720] my self-worth on that. It's not how I'm receiving self-esteem in the world. I get my self-worth
[20:21.720 -> 20:31.080] from other things, from my relationships, from my marriage, from my friendships and my career as well, but it's just one small piece of an overall puzzle,
[20:31.080 -> 20:36.920] most of which is very ordinary and mundane. So I think what you guys are doing, it's extremely
[20:36.920 -> 20:45.240] important, but it needs to be contextualized and understood that like if people are coming to you guys to feel good about themselves, that's like, like if people are coming to you
[20:45.240 -> 20:48.760] guys to feel good about themselves, that's a problem. If people are coming
[20:48.760 -> 20:54.080] to you guys because it's like, I want to be the best salesman in my company, period,
[20:54.080 -> 20:57.680] that's great, that that's awesome, that makes sense, you know.
[20:57.680 -> 21:02.120] It's really good that, and actually I think, to be honest Mark, it's something
[21:02.120 -> 21:05.800] that we've become aware of, Like when high performance first started,
[21:05.800 -> 21:08.000] I had the original idea and wanted it to be all about
[21:08.000 -> 21:10.440] like graft and get smacked in the face and get up
[21:10.440 -> 21:12.800] and keep going and you can do it.
[21:12.800 -> 21:14.360] And actually when you have conversations,
[21:14.360 -> 21:16.560] you know, like another example is Johnny Wilkinson,
[21:16.560 -> 21:19.060] who is a rugby player, English rugby player.
[21:19.060 -> 21:20.000] He won the Rugby World Cup.
[21:20.000 -> 21:22.340] It was one of the most famous sporting moments
[21:22.340 -> 21:24.360] in the history of our country.
[21:24.360 -> 21:29.140] It was a drop goal in the very last minute of a final. He'd spent 20 years for that moment and the joy
[21:29.140 -> 21:33.960] was 30 seconds long. And then he went right back to the start. That was the first time
[21:33.960 -> 21:37.920] I heard someone talk like that. And I thought, wow, so this message I'm desperate to put
[21:37.920 -> 21:41.840] across of keep on going regardless of what happens because you'll get that great moment
[21:41.840 -> 21:50.360] at the end, you realize there is no great moment at the end. So really, this podcast has changed really to us kind of saying to
[21:50.360 -> 21:55.520] people the total opposite, really. It's like you talk about it in your books, you talk
[21:55.520 -> 22:00.240] about it on your film, the hedonic treadmill, we're trying to remind people to get off this
[22:00.240 -> 22:10.040] hedonic treadmill of believing there's going to be a moment. Yeah, look, success is not universally a positive experience. And it's not, it's also not clear
[22:10.040 -> 22:16.480] cut what success is. Honestly, when when subtle art blew up and became number one on all the
[22:16.480 -> 22:23.080] bestseller lists and was huge in a bunch of different countries, I was the most depressed
[22:23.080 -> 22:26.400] I had been probably since I was a teenager and it was simply because I
[22:26.960 -> 22:30.480] Had no fucking idea what to do next like
[22:30.960 -> 22:35.560] here are all my dreams that I had since I was in my early 20s and
[22:35.680 -> 22:42.080] They all happened within about three months of each other and I was only 32 years old and I'm like shit
[22:42.080 -> 22:44.360] I still have a whole career in front of me and
[22:45.680 -> 22:50.720] I'm pretty sure nothing I ever do is going to match or top this.
[22:50.720 -> 22:56.880] And so I just kind of felt this paralysis of not knowing what to do next, not knowing
[22:56.880 -> 23:02.640] who I was going to be, not knowing what to dream, like what my goals were, what to pursue,
[23:02.640 -> 23:04.120] what to care about.
[23:04.120 -> 23:05.480] And so it sent me into kind of
[23:05.480 -> 23:10.600] like a six-month tailspin that was really blindsided me because, like everybody, I kind
[23:10.600 -> 23:15.280] of assume that you have this big best-selling book and everything's going to be great and
[23:15.280 -> 23:18.880] you're going to be happy all the time. And it is very ironic considering the stuff I
[23:18.880 -> 23:23.200] talk about in the book because in my book, I kind of talk about how this stuff, it's
[23:23.200 -> 23:25.040] not clear-cut and it's not obvious. And
[23:26.080 -> 23:32.560] you always need a new problem to confront. But yeah, it's interesting. I think this idea,
[23:33.520 -> 23:40.240] you know, this game that our minds play with us of, you know, if you just put dangling that
[23:40.240 -> 23:45.760] carrot in front of us and telling us, hey, if you get the carrot, everything's going to be great,
[23:45.760 -> 23:51.280] that it is just a game. It's kind of an illusion that goes on. I think it's important and it is
[23:51.280 -> 23:56.800] really, it's necessary to talk about with these topics. And have you seen it? Because you know,
[23:56.800 -> 24:04.640] you wrote Will alongside Will Smith, right? That's a guy who has scaled the world of acting.
[24:06.840 -> 24:11.880] Will Smith, right? That's the guy who has scaled the world of acting. Is it the same for people like him? Did you get a sense that actually for him it is about the journey pushing
[24:11.880 -> 24:16.520] through the tough times, doing the process, not about like winning the Oscars or getting
[24:16.520 -> 24:19.200] the awards or being number one?
[24:19.200 -> 24:23.240] I definitely did talk to Will about it. It's interesting because Will himself, speaking
[24:23.240 -> 24:25.680] of a delusionally positive person
[24:32.800 -> 24:40.240] and he he readily admits that he never went through that himself but it is he said that it is such a common thing in that industry actually both music and film he said that he actually told
[24:40.240 -> 24:48.080] me he said quincy jones used to call it altitude sickness. He said people would climb the success ladder too fast and they would get altitude sickness
[24:48.080 -> 24:49.760] and they'd fall off.
[24:49.760 -> 24:55.820] You almost have to experience success at a certain rate of growth to kind of like remain
[24:55.820 -> 24:57.520] mentally stable.
[24:57.520 -> 25:04.120] When I did the publicity rounds for my follow-up book and I shared this story about kind of
[25:04.120 -> 25:05.520] being depressed after the book's success.
[25:06.160 -> 25:11.600] So many people reached out to me. They're like, I've never talked about this with anybody before.
[25:12.480 -> 25:17.360] I had a friend in New York who actually came up to me, and he was a really successful startup
[25:17.360 -> 25:22.640] founder, and he exited his first startup for an obscene amount of money. And he told me,
[25:22.640 -> 25:26.160] he said, that first year after I exited, it
[25:26.160 -> 25:32.680] was the most miserable year of my life. Like, he had many, many, many millions of dollars
[25:32.680 -> 25:38.640] in his bank account and he said he just sat around in his house, bored, depressed, like,
[25:38.640 -> 25:54.000] completely lost. So, it's, but this is a mark so sorry, so sorry to interrupt I'm interested as a survivor of altitude sickness yourself then and having met all the sufferers of it.
[25:54.000 -> 26:06.800] What are the tricks that you've learned to be able to process that success and then carry on without it feeling that everything else is a disappointment after it?
[26:06.800 -> 26:12.960] One ingredient of it is simply time. Let it normalize a little bit in your brain, and
[26:12.960 -> 26:18.520] then also get a little bit of distance from it, to use my own phrasing, like to give fewer
[26:18.520 -> 26:26.840] fucks about it. I actually, I have a friend who's an author who has experienced similar drastic, sudden success recently
[26:27.760 -> 26:32.560] and I had a conversation with him about a year ago about it
[26:32.560 -> 26:35.680] and he was kind of going through a lot of the same stuff
[26:35.680 -> 26:37.680] that I went through and I told him, I said,
[26:37.680 -> 26:40.820] the best piece of advice I can give you is to just wait.
[26:40.820 -> 26:43.700] If you're unsure, if you're kind of freaking out,
[26:43.700 -> 26:45.040] if all these projects are showing
[26:45.040 -> 26:51.240] up and you feel like, like an obligation to do them, but you also are an anxiety ridden
[26:51.240 -> 26:52.560] mess doing them.
[26:52.560 -> 26:57.600] I said, just wait, like, just take a couple years, like, it's not going to go away.
[26:57.600 -> 27:01.400] Most of the deals in front of you are still going to be there, you know, just take a year
[27:01.400 -> 27:03.040] to get your head on straight.
[27:03.040 -> 27:04.400] Because I kind of did the opposite.
[27:04.400 -> 27:08.400] I started saying yes to everything because I think I had kind of this insecurity of
[27:09.800 -> 27:13.000] my lottery ticket hit and this is going to be gone soon.
[27:13.000 -> 27:16.800] So I should just say yes to every project, every speaking gig,
[27:16.800 -> 27:20.000] every appearance, because it's all going to go away.
[27:20.000 -> 27:22.400] And I burnt myself out really bad.
[27:22.400 -> 27:25.440] And I kind of lost direction because I was, you know, if you're
[27:25.440 -> 27:30.240] saying yes to everything, then like, you need to say no to things to know what you care about.
[27:30.240 -> 27:36.480] So anyway, I think that's another big piece of it is to, to get better at saying no to things,
[27:36.480 -> 27:42.480] get more discerning on what projects actually excite you, what you actually care about.
[27:42.480 -> 27:48.760] And then for me, it took a couple years to kind of start formulating new dreams for myself,
[27:48.760 -> 27:55.920] new goals, new aspirations, like what is the next big thing that I want to accomplish?
[27:55.920 -> 28:01.120] And then once I found that, it's basically, it's that old saying of you climb a mountain,
[28:01.120 -> 28:04.240] you spend years climbing a mountain and you get to the top and just to realize that there's
[28:04.240 -> 28:06.200] another bigger mountain behind it,
[28:06.200 -> 28:08.160] you got to figure out what that bigger mountain behind it
[28:08.160 -> 28:09.320] is, essentially.
[28:09.320 -> 28:11.560] And then you go start climbing that.
[28:11.560 -> 28:13.400] What's yours?
[28:13.400 -> 28:18.760] I actually, I want to create a media company
[28:18.760 -> 28:19.920] over the next 10 years.
[28:19.920 -> 28:32.360] I'm still going to write books, but I started blogging in 2008. And the knowledge I've gained from building up a web business, building up an online platform,
[28:32.360 -> 28:35.920] doing all the blogging, doing all the social media, hiring a team to do all that stuff,
[28:35.920 -> 28:43.160] I feel like I've just accumulated enough knowledge that I can start kind of building a full company
[28:43.160 -> 28:46.080] out of that knowledge. And I feel like there's just a lot
[28:46.080 -> 28:52.400] of opportunity. I mean, you guys are part of it as well, like just in podcasting and video, YouTube.
[28:53.200 -> 28:58.400] This is the new TV and radio of the 21st century. And we're in, we're still in like,
[28:59.680 -> 29:08.400] the very, very early stage of it. And it's funny, too, because, you know, I've done this film, which was great. And I've hung out
[29:08.400 -> 29:12.160] with Will and was around his people in the movie industry.
[29:12.160 -> 29:16.400] And I've been talking to some people in TV about some stuff
[29:16.400 -> 29:19.480] with television shows. And I've really just kind of become
[29:19.480 -> 29:22.660] convinced that it's like, what like Spotify did to the music
[29:22.660 -> 29:26.080] industry is about to happen to these industries
[29:26.080 -> 29:31.040] as well. Yeah, I'm, I'm in full agreement. And one of the reasons so you won't know this because you
[29:31.040 -> 29:35.920] live in the States, but here in the UK, I've had like 20 years on the telly here, children's
[29:35.920 -> 29:40.400] television, then Formula One racing. And now apart from this podcast, I'm a football host over here.
[29:40.960 -> 29:45.760] But actually the reason why I do what you'd call proper TV right in front of
[29:45.760 -> 29:50.400] millions of people in a big studio with makeup and all the works and I get just as much of
[29:50.400 -> 29:54.880] a thrill out of sitting in front of a sort of pretty cheap camera in a spare room in
[29:54.880 -> 29:59.360] my bedroom talking to you is because I actually like you I think that this is the we're at
[29:59.360 -> 30:02.400] the beginning of something really exciting and after a 20 year media career I looked
[30:02.400 -> 30:06.680] at everything radio even books TV books, TV, everything. And
[30:06.680 -> 30:10.320] I just thought, and then podcasting comes along. And I'm
[30:10.320 -> 30:13.000] like, this is the beginning of something really, really
[30:13.000 -> 30:16.040] special, a totally unique way to speak to people. I think
[30:16.040 -> 30:20.000] podcasting is is currently 1% of what it will be in 1015 years.
[30:20.360 -> 30:29.320] Yeah, I agree 100%. And that's kind of what I'm banking on. It feels good to be new at something again.
[30:29.320 -> 30:34.040] I think one of the things kind of coming back to the topic of some of the ways that success
[30:34.040 -> 30:40.320] doesn't always feel great is when you are at the top of the mountain, you feel this
[30:40.320 -> 30:44.320] constant pressure and anxiety of falling down it.
[30:44.320 -> 30:46.160] To me, psychologically speaking,
[30:46.160 -> 30:50.720] it feels much better to be at the bottom of a mountain because you have nothing to lose
[30:50.720 -> 30:56.160] and you get to enjoy that process of learning and climbing and improving and seeing the
[30:56.160 -> 31:00.600] gradual success unfurl in front of you. When you're at the top of the mountain, it's just
[31:00.600 -> 31:05.820] this constant panic attack that the next thing thing you do is gonna fuck everything up
[31:05.820 -> 31:10.080] And it's funny too because this is all just taking place in my head. I think my fans
[31:11.260 -> 31:17.360] Like no nobody outside of me sees any of this or experiences it this way, but it's just in my head
[31:18.040 -> 31:24.400] Reorienting to feel like I'm at the bottom of a mountain again. It's just been so liberating the last couple years
[31:22.040 -> 31:25.020] I'm at the bottom of a mountain again, it's just been so liberating the last couple years.
[31:26.320 -> 31:28.920] But when I listen to you describing that,
[31:28.920 -> 31:30.520] the journey that you're now on
[31:30.520 -> 31:33.100] and the adventures you're now pursuing though, Mark,
[31:33.100 -> 31:35.840] it sounds exhausting to me.
[31:35.840 -> 31:39.560] And the reason I say that is because you mentioned a word
[31:39.560 -> 31:43.560] that really made my ears pick up, which was burnout.
[31:43.560 -> 31:47.440] As somebody that's come close to that myself over the years
[31:47.440 -> 31:50.820] where you get a bit too close to the flame
[31:50.820 -> 31:53.140] and you start to see the symptoms of it,
[31:53.140 -> 31:56.420] and I know that lots of people that listen to this
[31:56.420 -> 32:00.280] will contact us and talk around the dangers of burnout.
[32:00.280 -> 32:03.240] I'm interested in your experiences of it,
[32:03.240 -> 32:06.160] your definition of it, and also your lessons of how
[32:06.160 -> 32:11.280] you've stepped back from the brink so you can go after these new exciting adventures without
[32:12.080 -> 32:18.240] risking it again. I've always been a little bit of a workaholic my entire adult life.
[32:18.240 -> 32:23.680] And it's funny too, because I used to be critical of the idea of burnout years ago. And then it
[32:23.680 -> 32:25.120] happened to me and I was like,
[32:25.120 -> 32:29.120] whoa, I didn't, where did that come from? I've never felt this before. And looking back,
[32:29.120 -> 32:35.200] I think the problem was, I think we all have a certain amount of capacity to do things
[32:35.200 -> 32:40.160] that we don't really care about. Like, you know, do it for the paycheck, do it because
[32:40.160 -> 32:45.680] it's good for the resume, whatever. Like there's a certain percentage of your effort that you can
[32:45.680 -> 32:53.520] allot to stuff like that. I think once you exceed that percentage for too long of a period of time,
[32:54.240 -> 32:58.560] it starts to eat away at you. And I think that's what happened to me. Kind of going back to this
[32:59.600 -> 33:05.840] feeling that I needed to say yes to everything. Yeah, I basically got myself into a situation where I'm
[33:11.040 -> 33:15.920] going to a bunch of events that I don't really care about. I'm working on some projects I don't really care about. And you can do that a little bit, but once you do it for three, four years,
[33:15.920 -> 33:20.640] and you're doing it around the clock and working your ass off, it catches up with you.
[33:20.640 -> 33:25.720] And so, again, I think it comes back to learning how to say no to things and
[33:25.720 -> 33:30.760] being very, very discerning and merciless about the things you say no to. And then in
[33:30.760 -> 33:35.960] my case, I mean, I think once you're in that burnout, like you really need just time away.
[33:35.960 -> 33:41.320] You need time off. You need a vacation or a short sabbatical, whatever. I ended up,
[33:41.320 -> 33:47.640] I originally planned on only taking a month off at the end of last year and then I had so
[33:48.560 -> 33:51.540] underestimated how burnt out I was that after that month I was like
[33:51.540 -> 33:55.440] I think I need like two or three more and I ended up taking six off and I
[33:57.080 -> 34:01.760] It complicated a bunch of contracts I had to call people and say hey that thing I was gonna do
[34:01.760 -> 34:08.640] I'm not doing it or hey that book that you thought I was going to be writing this year, I'm not writing it, but it needed to
[34:08.640 -> 34:14.000] be done. And honestly, it was one of the best decisions I've made in the last few years.
[34:14.000 -> 34:19.400] For people who are at a different stage of this journey, who hear that and think, I wouldn't
[34:19.400 -> 34:22.920] be brave enough to do that. I'm really interested just to explore what it does for you. I remember
[34:22.920 -> 34:27.600] reading actually, when I do my research for this interview about when you got the phone call to work with
[34:27.600 -> 34:31.360] Will Smith and you said in an article it took six months to arrange it and then you finally
[34:31.360 -> 34:36.320] got together, you wrote brilliantly about what it's like being in the world of a celebrity for a
[34:36.320 -> 34:40.720] little while, where like people are shaking while filling up his water glass and there's security
[34:40.720 -> 34:48.960] everywhere, people just scream when he walks out of a door. But then you also said, as I went into that weekend with him, I made two promises to myself. He
[34:48.960 -> 34:54.060] needs to be a person of integrity. And this can't be just another celebrity book. Now
[34:54.060 -> 34:57.560] that is where you're really tested. Because it's very easy to go, do you know what, I'm
[34:57.560 -> 35:02.280] going to say no to work. And then Will fricking Smith gets on the phone and goes, come and
[35:02.280 -> 35:07.520] write my book with me. That is the moment where, do you really care about not getting burnt out again? And I think this
[35:07.520 -> 35:10.160] is an interesting topic for our audience to hear you talk about.
[35:10.160 -> 35:12.680] Will Barron I think that book was actually one of the
[35:12.680 -> 35:17.720] only things that kept me sane through that period because it wasn't about me. It was
[35:17.720 -> 35:21.880] almost a relief to work on that book because I didn't have to come up with the ideas. I
[35:21.880 -> 35:28.160] didn't have to go through the insecurity and self-doubt of like, oh, people get to judge me for this, whatever. It's like, oh, it's
[35:28.160 -> 35:33.840] him. I like nobody's going to, you know, if people think he's a, an idiot for doing this,
[35:33.840 -> 35:38.880] you know, it's not my problem. So, you know, his book was a little bit of a respite in
[35:38.880 -> 35:43.200] that way. There's something kind of paradoxical in this. This happens not just with work,
[35:43.200 -> 35:48.960] it happens in human relationships. It happens in a lot of areas of life, whereas as soon as you're willing to lose
[35:48.960 -> 35:55.840] something, people want to give it to you like people respect you more. They're they're more
[35:55.840 -> 36:01.040] accommodating. And so it's this weird thing where, like, as soon as you're like, you know what?
[36:02.160 -> 36:05.800] I'm willing to let this go, I'm willing to lose this,
[36:05.800 -> 36:07.800] not only do you kind of liberate yourself,
[36:07.800 -> 36:11.800] but the people who are leaning on you to perform
[36:13.820 -> 36:18.040] are often like, oh shit, I don't want to lose this guy.
[36:18.040 -> 36:20.220] Like he's really, really good,
[36:20.220 -> 36:22.560] and if he needs his time off or whatever,
[36:22.560 -> 36:25.200] people get cranky, they get a little bit pissed off.
[36:30.560 -> 36:31.680] But if you are doing good work, and if you are adding value to your business relationships,
[36:38.400 -> 36:43.760] at the end of the day, they understand. And one of the things that I was very important to me when I took this time off, and I used to always think this about vacations too, like if I
[36:43.760 -> 36:45.520] took a went off and took a vacation,
[36:45.520 -> 36:48.080] I always wanted to come back better.
[36:48.080 -> 36:50.220] Like I always wanted to come back and like,
[36:50.220 -> 36:54.640] just fucking kill it that first week back from a vacation.
[36:54.640 -> 36:55.760] And I think it's important to do that
[36:55.760 -> 36:57.600] if you take this time away,
[36:57.600 -> 36:59.760] like you need to kind of come back and show people like,
[36:59.760 -> 37:01.440] okay, this was valuable, I needed this,
[37:01.440 -> 37:03.080] like here are the results.
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[38:52.000 -> 38:58.000] Can we go into that phrase you use that is a brilliant one about if you're willing just to lose something, it makes people appreciate what they've got, because that's worth exploring, I think, in more detail.
[38:58.000 -> 39:09.440] I had been saying yes to so many things for so long that I forgot what I actually wanted to be working on. But when you when you just cut everything off and you go away for a while,
[39:10.520 -> 39:13.240] you start missing some projects and you don't miss others.
[39:13.520 -> 39:18.000] And I came back with a list of like, these are things I'm never doing again.
[39:18.320 -> 39:20.240] Period. Right.
[39:20.240 -> 39:23.280] For me, the number one thing was public speaking.
[39:23.440 -> 39:31.340] It's easy money on paper in my profession, but it's just like so draining and just not
[39:31.340 -> 39:33.060] enjoyable for me.
[39:33.060 -> 39:37.140] When I was away, it was the first and most obvious thing of like, I should stop doing
[39:37.140 -> 39:38.140] this.
[39:38.140 -> 39:39.260] Like, it's just not, I don't need the money.
[39:39.260 -> 39:41.180] It doesn't make me happy.
[39:41.180 -> 39:42.180] It wastes a bunch of time.
[39:42.180 -> 39:44.140] It distracts me from things I want to be working on.
[39:44.140 -> 39:45.280] Like it's so, you know, you come back with a list of like, okay distracts me from things I want to be working on.
[39:45.280 -> 39:48.320] And so you come back with a list of like, okay, these are the things I'm not going to
[39:48.320 -> 39:49.320] do anymore.
[39:49.320 -> 39:51.080] These are the things I'm not going to focus on.
[39:51.080 -> 39:57.160] But I think on the other side, it's people look at it and it allows them to miss you.
[39:57.160 -> 40:03.480] It allows them to say like, shit, Mark was adding a lot of value on this project.
[40:03.480 -> 40:05.420] I really can't wait for him to come back.
[40:05.800 -> 40:06.800] And so it's.
[40:08.020 -> 40:11.520] I think it can improve business relationships.
[40:11.520 -> 40:15.440] And again, this is this is under the assumption that you're not doing anything
[40:16.480 -> 40:21.160] drastic or unreasonable, like disappearing for three years.
[40:21.160 -> 40:24.280] And then, you know, obviously, if you disappear for three years, like you're
[40:24.280 -> 40:27.720] not going to your your job's not going to wait for you that long.
[40:27.720 -> 40:34.220] But like, you know, if you're anxious or uncertain about, you know, maybe you really do feel
[40:34.220 -> 40:40.140] like you need a couple months away, and you're afraid to ask for that. A lot of people could
[40:40.140 -> 40:43.640] be pleasantly surprised at the reaction that they could get.
[40:43.640 -> 40:49.080] I love all that stuff, because it plays really nicely into the power of taking responsibility
[40:49.080 -> 40:53.720] for things. You know, like you talk brilliantly in the film, Fault vs. Responsibility, and
[40:53.720 -> 40:58.440] that is one of our key lessons here on High Performance, trying to help people realize
[40:58.440 -> 41:03.080] the difference between just because something isn't your fault, it's still your responsibility
[41:03.080 -> 41:04.080] to deal with it.
[41:04.080 -> 41:10.160] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's particularly important as it relates to teams and it also
[41:10.160 -> 41:15.040] relates to leadership. This concept of radical responsibility. Like it's, yeah, it's not my fault
[41:15.040 -> 41:19.920] somebody on my team fucked up, but like, I need to be there and pick up the slack.
[41:20.800 -> 41:25.740] Can you talk to us about Manson's law of avoidance? You said in your film that it would be a dream
[41:25.740 -> 41:31.600] to have a law named after yourself one day. You've nailed it. You've had everything now.
[41:31.600 -> 41:40.120] Yeah, yeah. You know, I could die happy. I was obnoxious enough to name a law after myself.
[41:40.120 -> 41:45.440] Manson's law of avoidance is basically just this idea that however we define ourselves,
[41:45.440 -> 41:49.720] like the way we think about ourselves, our emotions tend to protect that.
[41:49.720 -> 41:57.280] So, like the simplest example of this is that if you largely define yourself by say, you
[41:57.280 -> 42:04.480] know, how good of a podcaster you are or whatever, you then read a comment of somebody talking
[42:04.480 -> 42:05.040] shit about
[42:05.040 -> 42:09.920] you, your natural reaction is going to be anger. You're going to be like, what the
[42:09.920 -> 42:14.400] hell is wrong with this person? I'm so sick of these trolls and haters. And you're going
[42:14.400 -> 42:19.160] to have an emotional reaction to that. And just the way our mind seems to function is
[42:19.160 -> 42:24.360] that whatever the self-definition is, the emotions kind of conspire and get together
[42:24.360 -> 42:25.320] to protect that self-definition, to respond in a way that keeps that self-definition is, the emotions kind of conspire and get together to protect
[42:25.320 -> 42:29.480] that self-definition, to respond in a way that keeps that self-definition intact.
[42:29.480 -> 42:32.840] It's often referred to as the ego.
[42:32.840 -> 42:38.840] Well, what's interesting is that we have that emotional response not only when somebody
[42:38.840 -> 42:43.480] challenges our identity in a negative way, but we also have that emotional response when
[42:43.480 -> 42:46.940] something challenges our identity in a negative way, but we also have that emotional response when something challenges our identity in a positive way.
[42:46.940 -> 42:51.620] This is why people self-sabotage a lot when huge opportunities come by.
[42:51.620 -> 42:54.800] It's sometimes referred to as this feeling of not deserving.
[42:54.800 -> 42:59.460] It's not so much that you don't deserve something good in your life, it's just that you've defined
[42:59.460 -> 43:06.440] yourself in one way that is extremely comfortable and feels secure to you. And then when somebody
[43:06.440 -> 43:12.100] comes and offers you a huge opportunity, that completely negates a lot of the narratives
[43:12.100 -> 43:17.100] that you've been basing your life on. And that's a really, really scary thing. And that
[43:17.100 -> 43:21.620] creates a lot of anxiety and it creates a lot of resistance. And it creates a lot of
[43:21.620 -> 43:26.020] emotions that try to convince you to not do that huge opportunity because
[43:26.500 -> 43:31.500] that might mess everything up. And so Manson's law of avoidance is really just like we tend to
[43:32.220 -> 43:33.260] be
[43:33.260 -> 43:36.220] repelled by anything that challenges our definition of ourselves.
[43:36.560 -> 43:41.820] So how does that fit with the start this conversation about that delusional positivity?
[43:42.200 -> 43:45.360] Because if you present it with an opportunity and you've
[43:45.360 -> 43:51.040] convinced yourself that it goes outside your comfort zone, surely to believe you can take it
[43:51.040 -> 43:58.560] on then requires a degree of delusional positivity. Well, I think this is probably the reason why
[43:59.440 -> 44:05.720] a delusional positivity in terms of like future projection is so useful and
[44:12.680 -> 44:19.980] Does lead to higher performance so often it's because if the narrative you're telling yourself is like I'm gonna be huge I'm a huge success. It just hasn't happened yet. And then the opportunity comes by you're like, ah, it's about damn time somebody else noticed
[44:20.560 -> 44:26.480] Whereas if you don't have that narrative to begin with, then you might resist that opportunity.
[44:26.480 -> 44:27.720] This opportunity that you said,
[44:27.720 -> 44:28.880] when all your dreams came true,
[44:28.880 -> 44:31.640] when the subtle art did become
[44:31.640 -> 44:33.560] that international bestseller,
[44:33.560 -> 44:37.680] I'm interested in what were the ghosts from your childhood
[44:37.680 -> 44:40.400] that were rattling around your own adult body?
[44:40.400 -> 44:42.440] You know, the narratives that you'd had
[44:42.440 -> 44:47.880] from your own upbringing that maybe got in the way of you being able to enjoy that success
[44:49.480 -> 44:51.480] But it's really funny because
[44:52.640 -> 44:58.740] As a teenager, I wanted to be a musician and I took it very seriously. I went to music school and then I realized
[44:59.920 -> 45:01.920] Okay, I don't want to be a musician
[45:02.720 -> 45:06.720] This is really fucking hard. And damn, people expect
[45:06.720 -> 45:16.160] you to practice a lot. You know, when I started my first website, my only goal was to make enough
[45:16.160 -> 45:25.520] money online that I could go to Thailand and Argentina and Brazil and party and like hang out at the beach.
[45:25.520 -> 45:29.880] Like that was pretty much the extent of my ambitions for most of my 20s.
[45:29.880 -> 45:35.720] And then it wasn't until like the first kind of real big ambition I had, I decided, I was
[45:35.720 -> 45:36.720] 26.
[45:36.720 -> 45:39.240] I've been doing a bunch of websites, online business.
[45:39.240 -> 45:40.920] I've been doing some freelance web design.
[45:40.920 -> 45:42.400] I've been doing some online marketing.
[45:42.400 -> 45:44.040] I've been doing some affiliate stuff.
[45:44.040 -> 45:45.600] And then I've been doing some online marketing, I've been doing some affiliate stuff and then I've been doing the blogging.
[45:45.600 -> 45:51.860] And I was okay at all of it and not excellent at anything.
[45:51.860 -> 45:55.640] And I looked at it and I said, okay, I've been doing all this stuff for a few years.
[45:55.640 -> 46:00.000] I've been living on beaches in Thailand and Argentina and Brazil.
[46:00.000 -> 46:03.800] The one thing out of everything I'm doing, the one thing I think I have actually have
[46:03.800 -> 46:07.440] some talent and I actually really enjoy is the writing.
[46:07.440 -> 46:12.160] And so I decided at that point, okay, my dream is I want to be an author, I want to be a
[46:12.160 -> 46:17.080] published author, I want to have books, and one day I want to be like a New York Times
[46:17.080 -> 46:18.180] bestseller.
[46:18.180 -> 46:23.220] If I can do that, then oh my God, life is going to be great.
[46:23.220 -> 46:25.680] And so for the next five or six years, I progressively
[46:25.680 -> 46:31.680] worked towards things that led to that. I built up a blog and I built up the readership
[46:31.680 -> 46:37.440] and I got an agent and I got a book deal and yada yada. Well, then the book comes out and
[46:37.440 -> 46:42.800] it becomes a huge hit and all that stuff is realized within, like I said, within a few
[46:42.800 -> 46:45.280] months of the book coming out. And the problem was,
[46:45.280 -> 46:51.360] is I had no vision for myself beyond that. Like in my head, I was like, I'm going to be writing
[46:51.360 -> 46:57.520] and working at this dream probably my entire adult life. Like if I hit it, I'm probably going
[46:57.520 -> 47:08.000] to be like in my late 40s or 50s. And then I hit it in my early 30s. I think it kind of triggered a midlife crisis a little bit early for me.
[47:08.000 -> 47:18.000] In which I'm sitting around in my apartment, you know, wondering what is it all for? What's next?
[47:18.000 -> 47:25.920] You know, what am I going to do with my life? What's the point of any of this?"
[47:25.920 -> 47:30.960] Something I failed to do, but I think is important, especially for people who are in industries
[47:30.960 -> 47:37.040] like mine or say people who are athletes, I think it's important to think about, okay,
[47:37.040 -> 47:38.480] what's the thing that's next?
[47:38.480 -> 47:48.560] I have a friend in New York who is a sports psychologist. And he told me, he said, we start talking to athletes
[47:48.560 -> 47:56.060] about planning for their second career, their rookie season. He said, I'll get a guy coming
[47:56.060 -> 48:01.860] in who's 21 years old, was hot shit, you know, went first round in the draft, is like going
[48:01.860 -> 48:05.320] to be the new star for his baseball team or his
[48:05.320 -> 48:09.120] football team or whatever. And he's like, I'm already talking to him. What are you going
[48:09.120 -> 48:13.520] to do when you're 40? What is your second career going to be? How are you going to spend
[48:13.520 -> 48:20.000] your 40s and 50s and 60s? Because he said that so many athletes, you know, they they
[48:20.000 -> 48:26.320] get to the end of their career and they they still have their life in front of them and no vision
[48:26.320 -> 48:32.120] for themselves. I guess the same way you would diversify a portfolio, like your financial
[48:32.120 -> 48:38.320] investments, you should probably diversify how you invest in how you see yourself. Don't
[48:38.320 -> 48:47.400] just go all in on one pursuit. Have a well-rounded identity of various ambitions and goals that you want
[48:47.400 -> 48:50.880] throughout your life so that not only if you like
[48:50.880 -> 48:53.460] do hit a dream, you don't feel completely lost,
[48:53.460 -> 48:57.040] but also like, you know, if something goes horribly wrong
[48:57.040 -> 48:58.400] in one area of your life,
[48:58.400 -> 49:01.440] you don't feel like you're completely lost either.
[49:01.440 -> 49:03.340] We're about to move on to our quickfire questions,
[49:03.340 -> 49:05.760] but I can't do that without asking
[49:05.760 -> 49:10.680] you just to share one last story with us from the film about Dave Mustaine, the founding
[49:10.680 -> 49:14.840] member of Metallica. I thought it was absolutely fantastic. And we live in a world where everyone
[49:14.840 -> 49:18.800] is comparing themselves to everybody else. So would you mind for our listeners just sharing
[49:18.800 -> 49:29.800] this story just briefly for a couple of minutes? Okay, so I'm a big metal fan and Dave Mustaine, he was the first lead guitarist of Metallica
[49:29.800 -> 49:33.840] and he actually got kicked out of Metallica right before Metallica recorded their first
[49:33.840 -> 49:39.640] album. Now, obviously that's a terrible thing, but Dave Mustaine was super interesting in
[49:39.640 -> 49:44.120] that he got very pissed off and he said, I'm going to use this as fuel. He did all the
[49:44.120 -> 49:45.800] things that we all talk about
[49:45.800 -> 49:47.620] that you should do when you have a setback
[49:47.620 -> 49:48.660] or a failure or whatever.
[49:48.660 -> 49:51.020] He said, I'm gonna work my ass off,
[49:51.020 -> 49:52.740] I'm gonna make a better band,
[49:52.740 -> 49:54.420] I'm gonna sell more records,
[49:54.420 -> 49:56.340] I'm gonna sell more albums,
[49:56.340 -> 49:58.540] do bigger tours, et cetera, et cetera.
[49:58.540 -> 50:00.520] And so he created Megadeth.
[50:00.520 -> 50:04.340] And I think to this day, he's sold 100 million records,
[50:04.340 -> 50:06.160] he's done stadium tours around the world,
[50:06.160 -> 50:09.040] he's grossed hundreds of millions of dollars.
[50:09.040 -> 50:12.000] He's one of the biggest rock musicians in history.
[50:12.000 -> 50:15.000] The problem is, the band that he was kicked out of
[50:15.000 -> 50:18.000] is an even bigger group of even bigger
[50:18.000 -> 50:19.200] rock musicians in history.
[50:19.200 -> 50:21.920] And so there's this fascinating documentary,
[50:21.920 -> 50:23.800] I think it happened in the early 2000s,
[50:23.800 -> 50:32.820] where in an interview, he had tears in his eyes and he said, I still feel like a failure because
[50:32.820 -> 50:35.120] I'm still the guy who got kicked out of Metallica.
[50:35.120 -> 50:39.800] Doesn't matter how many records I sell, doesn't matter how many stadiums I play to, I'm not
[50:39.800 -> 50:40.800] Metallica.
[50:40.800 -> 50:44.120] They've done more, they've sold more records, they've done bigger tours.
[50:44.120 -> 50:45.520] And so I still feel like a failure.
[50:45.520 -> 50:49.760] And to me, it's just such a fascinating demonstration
[50:49.760 -> 50:52.400] that like the way we define success for ourselves
[50:52.400 -> 50:54.080] is so precarious.
[50:54.080 -> 50:55.760] You have to be really, really careful
[50:55.760 -> 50:58.440] because Dave Mustaine's a great example of,
[50:58.440 -> 51:01.320] he defined success for himself in a way
[51:01.320 -> 51:03.840] that was very helpful early in his career.
[51:03.840 -> 51:08.940] He was like, oh, those guys kicked me out of their band. Fuck those guys. I'm going to be bigger and better and more
[51:08.940 -> 51:14.480] successful than them. And that helped him get started and it helped him sell a bunch
[51:14.480 -> 51:19.580] of records and everything. But jump ahead 20 years and that definition of success became
[51:19.580 -> 51:25.360] a prison for him. And it prevented him from appreciating anything that he had accomplished from enjoying
[51:26.000 -> 51:28.840] Any of the successes that he had had it's just a
[51:29.720 -> 51:32.320] really fascinating cautionary tale of
[51:34.040 -> 51:36.040] Be careful how you're measuring yourself
[51:36.480 -> 51:38.120] It's good stuff, man
[51:38.120 -> 51:40.640] Let's move on to our quickfire questions to round up mark
[51:40.640 -> 51:44.800] The first one is what are the three behaviors that you and ideally the people around you?
[51:48.080 -> 51:54.680] must buy into? Authenticity, respect and compassion.
[51:54.680 -> 51:55.680] Nice.
[51:55.680 -> 51:58.080] I would say.
[51:58.080 -> 52:03.320] If you could go back to one moment in your life, what would it be and why?
[52:03.320 -> 52:07.360] I do my wedding again. My wife is Brazilian and Brazilians,
[52:08.240 -> 52:14.560] if there was a Nobel Prize for parties, a Brazilian would win every single year for the
[52:14.560 -> 52:20.400] last hundred years. Like they are just any sort of celebration or joyous occasion, they do it best.
[52:20.400 -> 52:26.960] And we, our wedding was in Brazil and it was just unbelievable. So nice. Where were
[52:26.960 -> 52:31.480] you? Where are you? Where are you going?
[52:31.480 -> 52:38.800] Fuck that. I'm a writer. So like my mind is like spinning up all these metaphors and like
[52:38.800 -> 52:45.120] I, you come on, think out loud. We want to hear this. This is not a quickfire question for me.
[52:48.400 -> 52:57.200] I think where I was, and I'm thinking of myself, say, like 10 to 15 years ago, was somebody with
[52:57.920 -> 53:10.640] a lot of drive and talent, but without focus. I think where I am now is I am like in that prism of like
[53:10.640 -> 53:16.520] taking wide diffuse light and focusing it on a single point and where I'm going is I'm
[53:16.520 -> 53:23.840] trying to be merciless and protecting that focus on that single point, saying no to all
[53:23.840 -> 53:25.360] the distractions in life.
[53:25.360 -> 53:29.840] And by the way, side note, sorry, this is getting really long. This is not a quick fire answer at
[53:29.840 -> 53:34.800] all. Side note ties in with all this discussion about success. One of the things that people
[53:34.800 -> 53:40.560] never tell you about success is that it gets harder and harder to say no to things because
[53:41.440 -> 53:47.000] all of the things that people are coming and offering you are shinier and shinier and shinier.
[53:47.000 -> 53:56.000] And so early in my career, I always prided myself at being very good at not doing things I didn't want to do.
[53:56.000 -> 53:59.000] But fuck, man, it gets hard. It gets really hard.
[53:59.000 -> 54:06.720] There's just so many cool opportunities and big checks and you know, like, it's a trap. It's a, it's
[54:06.720 -> 54:10.700] a huge trap. So that's where I feel like I'm going.
[54:10.700 -> 54:14.620] You had a dream. And in it, someone said, why do you care I'm dead when you're still
[54:14.620 -> 54:18.800] too afraid to live? I think we should finish with you just sharing that with us, because
[54:18.800 -> 54:23.320] I think that probably is a lesson for how to live a high performance life.
[54:23.320 -> 54:25.360] Yeah, absolutely.
[54:25.360 -> 54:28.040] So for people who have not read the book
[54:28.040 -> 54:30.340] or seen the movie, I tell a story.
[54:30.340 -> 54:31.800] I had a friend, when I was a teenager,
[54:31.800 -> 54:35.200] I had a friend who passed away suddenly and tragically.
[54:35.200 -> 54:39.880] And when I was young, I was, you know,
[54:39.880 -> 54:43.440] I smoked a lot of weed and was just kind of,
[54:43.440 -> 54:46.480] kind of a lazy, entitled young person.
[54:46.480 -> 54:48.880] And also suffered a lot from social anxiety
[54:48.880 -> 54:51.560] and was just like very much within my shell.
[54:51.560 -> 54:53.820] And I had a dream, this friend of mine
[54:53.820 -> 54:56.480] was a very outgoing guy that I looked up to
[54:56.480 -> 55:01.480] and shortly after he died, I had a dream with him in it.
[55:01.600 -> 55:04.420] And I told him, I said, I'm sorry you died.
[55:07.360 -> 55:14.400] And he responded, why are you sorry I'm dead when you're still so afraid to live? And I remember I woke up crying from
[55:14.400 -> 55:27.280] that. And honestly, that whole experience, his passing, and then just the number, that grieving process did to me psychologically
[55:27.280 -> 55:29.880] as a young person, like it really,
[55:29.880 -> 55:31.680] I think it's one of the most formative things
[55:31.680 -> 55:33.120] that has ever happened to me,
[55:34.280 -> 55:36.240] is showing me how fragile life is,
[55:36.240 -> 55:37.740] how easily it can be taken away
[55:37.740 -> 55:41.000] and how you really, really,
[55:41.000 -> 55:44.700] whatever you do, cannot waste a moment.
[55:45.000 -> 55:47.000] I appreciate every second of it.
[55:47.000 -> 55:48.000] So.
[55:48.000 -> 55:49.000] What a way to finish.
[55:49.000 -> 55:51.000] Mark, the pleasure's been all ours.
[55:51.000 -> 55:54.000] Thank you so much for finding the time to speak to us on high performance.
[55:54.000 -> 55:56.000] Thank you guys.
[56:00.000 -> 56:01.000] Damien.
[56:01.000 -> 56:02.000] Jake.
[56:02.000 -> 56:04.000] I think that was full of gold.
[56:04.000 -> 56:05.000] I thought it was brilliant. Yeah. I thought it was brilliant.
[56:05.000 -> 56:07.000] Yeah, I love his brilliant writing.
[56:07.000 -> 56:09.500] I've enjoyed reading his blogs for a long time.
[56:09.500 -> 56:15.500] I just love how he can take an idea and explain it in such a succinct, digestible way.
[56:15.500 -> 56:17.000] I think there's a real talent in that.
[56:17.000 -> 56:21.500] And having met him, I think his ability to articulate it was equally fabulous.
[56:21.500 -> 56:25.520] I think that one of the big takeaways for me, right,
[56:25.520 -> 56:28.360] from Mark Manson's work is this understanding
[56:28.360 -> 56:31.600] that we're all thinking happiness lies
[56:31.600 -> 56:33.940] in having a problem-free life.
[56:33.940 -> 56:36.280] He makes it very clear that there is no such thing
[56:36.280 -> 56:37.460] as a problem-free life.
[56:37.460 -> 56:40.440] Like, life is not without problems, it's not without pain,
[56:40.440 -> 56:44.240] it's not without disaster, it's not without disappointment,
[56:44.240 -> 56:52.100] but it can still be good. And having those problems and overcoming those problems is actually where the fulfilment
[56:52.100 -> 56:55.320] in life is, rather than as he says, getting to the top of the mountain, thinking you've
[56:55.320 -> 57:00.040] scaled the mountain and seeing straight away there's another peak five miles further on.
[57:00.040 -> 57:05.200] In that world, nothing joyful lives because you're constantly on that again,
[57:05.200 -> 57:06.820] the hardonic treadmill thinking, right,
[57:06.820 -> 57:08.060] next mountain, next mountain.
[57:08.060 -> 57:10.060] It is this, for him, it's this understanding
[57:10.060 -> 57:13.180] that the overcoming of life's shitty things
[57:13.180 -> 57:16.400] is actually the greatness in life.
[57:16.400 -> 57:18.700] Yeah, the journey, not the destination.
[57:18.700 -> 57:19.900] I think there was another big thing though
[57:19.900 -> 57:21.540] that I took away from it was,
[57:21.540 -> 57:23.180] it reminded me of,
[57:23.180 -> 57:27.600] there's a brilliant book by a guy called Barry Schwartz and the book is called the paradox of choice
[57:28.000 -> 57:33.160] Where we convince ourselves that having a plethora of choices will make us happier
[57:33.160 -> 57:38.160] You know if I could have this and this and this and and I'd love that and I'd love to have that choice and what?
[57:38.160 -> 57:43.800] Barry Schwartz talks about and what Marx just told us is that actually having lots of choice makes us
[57:42.280 -> 57:45.320] And what Mark's just told us is that actually having lots of choice makes us unhappier
[57:45.320 -> 57:47.360] because we always feel we're missing out on something
[57:47.360 -> 57:49.400] that there's always something else
[57:49.400 -> 57:51.720] that we could be having it rather than enjoying
[57:51.720 -> 57:53.680] what we've got in this moment in time.
[57:53.680 -> 57:55.440] And I think that was a really interesting part
[57:55.440 -> 57:57.480] of the discussion around the success,
[57:57.480 -> 58:01.040] how brighter, bigger, shinier objects come your way.
[58:01.040 -> 58:02.920] And that doesn't make you happier.
[58:02.920 -> 58:08.720] Focusing on what really lights your fire is where true high performance exists.
[58:08.740 -> 58:11.640] Yeah. And I think the way that he signed off that conversation,
[58:12.240 -> 58:15.600] talking about the death of his friend and the impact it had on
[58:15.600 -> 58:18.720] him and the dream that he had. I think I get the sense that that
[58:18.720 -> 58:21.760] kind of lives with him daily. You know, people, most people
[58:21.760 -> 58:24.960] will hear this podcast, but if people are watching it, you'll
[58:24.960 -> 58:27.720] see that actually he looked quite emotional just even talking about it there
[58:28.280 -> 58:34.460] Yeah, I mean what a great line that is that why would you be worried about my death when you you're afraid to live?
[58:34.460 -> 58:38.580] And I think it reminded me a little bit of the conversation that we had with
[58:38.940 -> 58:45.360] Lindsay Burrow the wife of Rob Burrow the former player, who's tragically suffering from motor neurone
[58:45.360 -> 58:50.800] disease, that people can go back and listen to her interview where she almost gave us a manifesto
[58:50.800 -> 58:56.640] for living life in the face of death, you know, about being grateful, enjoying the small moments,
[58:57.200 -> 59:02.720] embracing positive emotions when they occur. And again, there's so many echoes with previous
[59:02.720 -> 59:07.600] guests in terms of what Mark's sharing with us there. It was a real privilege to listen to him.
[59:07.600 -> 59:10.200] Paul Marber. It's great. And you're not special, Damien. Okay.
[59:10.200 -> 59:14.760] Damien Ricard. I know. Yeah. Well, I was told I was special at school, but I think it was
[59:14.760 -> 59:16.160] the nuns sort of let me down.
[59:16.160 -> 59:19.120] Paul Marber. The thing is though, it's an interesting way to think about it is that
[59:19.120 -> 59:23.160] doing that to children just sets them up for failure. For, to say your kids, you're special,
[59:23.160 -> 59:25.520] you're amazing. You're're amazing. I'm now thinking
[59:30.160 -> 59:34.080] you can say the things you're doing are special. Like that bit of singing was really special, but you're special. I can see like with Best Intentions as a parent, I do it all the time,
[59:34.080 -> 59:38.000] but I can also see what Mark is explaining that what's that going to do to them? It's going to
[59:38.000 -> 59:43.440] make them think that there's just amazing life of daily pleasure awaiting you. And like he says,
[59:43.440 -> 59:46.360] 90% of life is pretty crap, but a bit mundane.
[59:46.360 -> 59:49.960] And it is. And we have to maybe explain that to our young people. Like that's what you're
[59:49.960 -> 59:50.960] going to live.
[59:50.960 -> 59:54.740] Jason Valey, J.P. Yeah. I think, I think it's a powerful point. I think you can achieve
[59:54.740 -> 59:59.200] special things, but don't, don't get high on your own supply. Don't think that you're
[59:59.200 -> 01:00:04.040] special. You know, like, like you think of all the amazing guests that we've met on this
[01:00:04.040 -> 01:00:05.040] podcast where it's the humility are the ones that stand out into the ones that my ordinary like you, like you think of all the amazing guests that we've met on this podcast, where
[01:00:05.040 -> 01:00:10.240] it's the humility are the ones that stand out, isn't it? The ones that might like ordinary people
[01:00:10.240 -> 01:00:16.160] doing extraordinary things. And I think that's a distinction that he was making there that it's not
[01:00:16.160 -> 01:00:21.440] that we're all born special or we should put ourselves on a pedestal. That's a dangerous place
[01:00:21.440 -> 01:00:26.920] to view the world from. Oh, I really enjoyed that episode. Thanks a lot, Damien. Right on
[01:00:26.920 -> 01:00:30.880] to something a bit different. Okay, let's meet another high
[01:00:30.880 -> 01:00:33.560] performance listener. Matteo, how's things?
[01:00:33.760 -> 01:00:37.600] Things are pretty good. I'm currently in my fourth year
[01:00:37.640 -> 01:00:42.160] studying architecture at the University of Malta. I'm also a
[01:00:42.200 -> 01:00:48.760] UEFA licensed coach. And yeah, basically living a 21 year old life.
[01:00:48.760 -> 01:00:49.760] Love that.
[01:00:49.760 -> 01:00:51.840] Well, listen, thank you so much for joining us from Malta.
[01:00:51.840 -> 01:00:55.360] Thanks for listening to the High Performance podcast in Malta.
[01:00:55.360 -> 01:00:58.840] But being at university in Malta is what you do.
[01:00:58.840 -> 01:01:00.020] It's not who you are.
[01:01:00.020 -> 01:01:04.680] So maybe you would like to share with us the story that you emailed into the High Performance
[01:01:04.680 -> 01:01:07.920] team because I think it would be so valuable for our listeners, man.
[01:01:07.920 -> 01:01:15.040] Yeah, so basically, two years ago in 2020, it was practically the beginning of the COVID
[01:01:15.040 -> 01:01:22.920] pandemic. And I was back in that time playing my second season at senior level in football.
[01:01:22.920 -> 01:01:28.040] And because training had to stop, I made sure to remain active,
[01:01:28.040 -> 01:01:34.200] I didn't want to lose what I had gained, and continue to go for jogging, etc, something
[01:01:34.200 -> 01:01:42.920] that I used to do whenever I didn't have training on off days, basically. And but I did some
[01:01:42.920 -> 01:01:50.500] work, some some architecture work, went for the job, and little did I know that that job would change the rest of my life,
[01:01:50.500 -> 01:02:02.500] because I was run over by a vehicle, went straight into a 10-day coma, and it wasn't just any coma, it was a coma at a Glasgow scale of 3,
[01:02:02.500 -> 01:02:05.100] which, if you don't't know is the worst level
[01:02:05.100 -> 01:02:07.140] of coma you can be into.
[01:02:07.140 -> 01:02:08.900] You are practically unresponsive.
[01:02:08.900 -> 01:02:12.940] I spent further two days in induced coma.
[01:02:12.940 -> 01:02:21.300] And from that, I had to start slowly, slowly getting back to normality.
[01:02:21.300 -> 01:02:27.480] It was also difficult for me because it was not just the physical pain and physical effects
[01:02:27.480 -> 01:02:31.680] that this accident left, but mostly psychologically.
[01:02:31.680 -> 01:02:38.960] Psychologically, it was immensely difficult and perhaps the most thing that led to this
[01:02:38.960 -> 01:02:50.560] was the passing of one of my greatest friends, his name is Emerson, who left this world due to a heart attack only two days after I was in coma.
[01:02:50.560 -> 01:02:56.000] So on my second day of coma, he passed away with a heart attack.
[01:02:56.000 -> 01:02:57.520] And of course, this was difficult.
[01:02:57.520 -> 01:03:02.240] It was also difficult for me, even simply, you know, looking at the mirror,
[01:03:02.240 -> 01:03:06.960] because I had to spend the following summer of 2020
[01:03:06.960 -> 01:03:12.280] with practically without one third of my skull. So just imagine looking at the mirror. Looking
[01:03:12.280 -> 01:03:20.000] back now I say I'm extremely proud of myself about the determination that I had to accomplish
[01:03:20.000 -> 01:03:26.400] this target and graduate in my first year. It wasn't just the diploma, but it was, you know,
[01:03:27.200 -> 01:03:33.760] a motivation itself that, okay, things are going to come in your life, but if there's
[01:03:33.760 -> 01:03:41.040] something that you want, if you are strong enough, mentally especially, nothing can stop you. And,
[01:03:41.040 -> 01:03:52.720] you know, despite being just a diploma, I repeat, I am so proud of the fact that I managed to continue with and here today I am in my fourth year. So, so that's
[01:03:52.720 -> 01:03:55.920] that's my brief story of myself.
[01:03:55.920 -> 01:03:59.920] It's an amazing story. And it's a reminder of something we talk about so often on high
[01:03:59.920 -> 01:04:04.440] performance, Matthew, as you will know, which is making sure that the way we react to the
[01:04:04.440 -> 01:04:08.880] world is the key thing. So your job really very quickly was to focus on what you had
[01:04:08.880 -> 01:04:13.040] and not what you'd lost. You had to focus on the fact that you still had your life,
[01:04:13.040 -> 01:04:18.320] despite the fact that you had, you know, lost so much. You'd lost your football career.
[01:04:18.320 -> 01:04:23.320] You'd lost your friend Emerson, but look at what you have now. You're studying architecture.
[01:04:23.320 -> 01:04:25.160] You're a UEFA qualified coach,
[01:04:25.160 -> 01:04:28.160] you know, you now are working hard to get your health back, you have your friends, your
[01:04:28.160 -> 01:04:33.400] family, your loved ones around you. I'd love to know what the high performance podcast
[01:04:33.400 -> 01:04:37.700] did for you on this journey and whether there was any specific moments that really spoke
[01:04:37.700 -> 01:04:40.880] to you that you would happily share with the people listening to this today.
[01:04:40.880 -> 01:04:47.120] I was already a very motivated person, but it continued to motivate me and change the way I
[01:04:47.120 -> 01:04:54.400] look at certain things. The first podcast that I saw it was that of Roxanne Nafusi. Simply visualizing
[01:04:54.400 -> 01:05:10.720] things and visualizing myself and what I would like to be in the future is the way that I still, to some extent, agree with Nafus' experience and her motivation.
[01:05:10.720 -> 01:05:13.600] Of course, there were more podcasts that I was happy to listen to,
[01:05:13.600 -> 01:05:17.200] especially those that relate a lot to my career,
[01:05:17.200 -> 01:05:23.440] so at the moment, football, of course, Gerrit Saugate, Lampard, both podcasts.
[01:05:23.440 -> 01:05:46.840] And something that I really found interesting also was the Manchester United Head Coach Academy. was and know that there's a guy in Malta who's been through so much, but is still standing, is still moving forward, is still high performance,
[01:05:46.840 -> 01:05:48.600] and they've all helped you.
[01:05:48.600 -> 01:05:51.720] Listen, let's finish with you giving the people
[01:05:51.720 -> 01:05:53.960] listening to this your three non-negotiables,
[01:05:53.960 -> 01:05:55.440] because you've got an amazing story.
[01:05:55.440 -> 01:05:58.740] I'm sure you've got three fascinating non-negotiables
[01:05:58.740 -> 01:05:59.920] that you live your life by.
[01:05:59.920 -> 01:06:03.240] To be determined, I think that has to definitely
[01:06:03.240 -> 01:06:07.960] be one of them. to truly have passion for what
[01:06:07.960 -> 01:06:15.080] you do, you have to have passion, passion is you cannot achieve nothing without passion.
[01:06:15.080 -> 01:06:18.000] And to most importantly, enjoy the process.
[01:06:18.000 -> 01:06:24.200] Mate, I love it. You're a converted high performance listener, that's for sure. What a story. What
[01:06:24.200 -> 01:06:26.160] a person, what a mindset.
[01:06:26.160 -> 01:06:29.400] Thank you so much for coming on and talking to us, Matteo.
[01:06:29.400 -> 01:06:33.360] You have done a massive thing with this podcast
[01:06:33.360 -> 01:06:35.000] and yeah, thanks a lot.
[01:06:37.080 -> 01:06:39.240] Well, look, as always, huge thanks to you
[01:06:39.240 -> 01:06:41.760] for listening to the High Performance Podcast.
[01:06:41.760 -> 01:06:43.280] I only ask one thing of you.
[01:06:43.280 -> 01:06:48.260] It takes about two seconds, just click the follow button wherever you're listening to this podcast. If you're watching us on
[01:06:48.260 -> 01:06:53.240] YouTube, then hit subscribe on YouTube, please. It makes all the difference to us because
[01:06:53.240 -> 01:06:56.560] it means that we can grow our channels. It means that we can then attract bigger names.
[01:06:56.560 -> 01:07:00.920] And if we do that, then we can bring you more incredible conversations. So please follow
[01:07:00.920 -> 01:07:08.480] us or just spread the lessons you're taking from this series. Ping this episode, this amazing conversation with Mark Manson to just one person,
[01:07:08.480 -> 01:07:10.160] and let's see where it gets us.
[01:07:10.160 -> 01:07:11.160] Thank you so much for listening.
[01:07:11.160 -> 01:07:13.400] Remember, it's all there for you.
[01:07:13.400 -> 01:07:15.120] Chase world-class basics.
[01:07:15.120 -> 01:07:17.160] Don't get high on your own supply.
[01:07:17.160 -> 01:07:49.320] Remain humble, curious, and empathetic, and we'll see you soon. Fred Meyer always gives you savings and rewards on top of our lower than low prices
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