E167 - Nick Littlehales, elite sleep coach: Rethink what you know on sleep

Expert sleep coach Nick Littlehales joins us for the second episode of our special series with WHOOP, speaking to world leading experts who can positively impact you and the life you live. 

Nick causes Jake and Damian to rethink how they look at their sleep patterns for high performance and provides practical tips we can all use for improving sleep patterns. 

Nick has worked with elite sports teams from Team Sky to Manchester United on improving performance through sleep patterns. He is the author of the book Sleep: The Myth of 8 Hours, the Power of Naps... and the New Plan to Recharge Your Body and Mind.

Thanks to WHOOP for being our partner on this series. WHOOP is a wearable health and fitness coach that helps you to sleep better, train smarter and recover faster.

If you're interested in improving your health and overall performance, you can go to join.whoop.com/hpp to get a 20% discount on a WHOOP membership this holiday season.

 - - - - 

We have added new dates to our live tour! Tickets are available now at: https://www.thehighperformancepodcast.com/live2023 

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Sure, here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript:

**Introduction**

* Host Jake Humphrey welcomes sleep expert Nick Littlehales to the show.
* Littlehales has worked with elite sports teams and athletes to improve their performance through sleep patterns.

**Rethinking Sleep for High Performance**

* Littlehales challenges the traditional view of sleep as a single 8-hour block.
* He introduces the concept of polyphasic sleep, which involves multiple sleep cycles throughout the day.
* This approach is more aligned with our natural circadian rhythms and can lead to improved recovery and performance.

**Key Sleep Recovery Indicators (KSRIs)**

* Littlehales identifies seven KSRIs that can be used to optimize sleep:
* Circadian rhythms
* Chronotypes
* Sleeping in cycles
* Pre and post-sleep routines
* Balance between recovery and activity
* Environment
* Products

**Practical Tips for Better Sleep**

* Be aware of your circadian rhythms and chronotype.
* Create a consistent sleep schedule and stick to it as much as possible.
* Get exposure to natural light in the morning to help regulate your circadian rhythm.
* Avoid blue light from electronic devices in the hours leading up to sleep.
* Create a relaxing bedtime routine to help you wind down before sleep.
* Make sure your bedroom is dark, quiet, and cool.
* Use a comfortable mattress and pillow.

**Controlled Recovery Periods (CRPs)**

* Littlehales recommends incorporating short CRPs into your day to promote recovery.
* These CRPs can involve activities such as meditation, visualization, or simply taking a few minutes to relax and focus on your breath.
* CRPs can help to reduce stress and improve alertness.

**Polyphasic Sleep Approach**

* Littlehales discusses the benefits of a polyphasic sleep approach, which involves multiple sleep cycles throughout the day.
* This approach can help to reduce the pressure on sleep at night and improve overall recovery.
* Littlehales recommends experimenting with different polyphasic sleep schedules to find one that works best for you.

**Conclusion**

* Littlehales emphasizes the importance of taking a holistic approach to sleep and recovery.
* By making small changes to your daily routine, you can significantly improve the quality of your sleep and your overall performance.

**Additional Insights**

* Littlehales highlights the importance of understanding your own unique sleep needs and preferences.
* He encourages listeners to experiment with different sleep strategies to find what works best for them.
* Littlehales emphasizes the importance of consistency in sleep habits.
* He also discusses the impact of stress on sleep and provides strategies for managing stress.
* Littlehales highlights the importance of creating a supportive sleep environment.

**Overall Message**

The overall message of the podcast is that sleep is a fundamental pillar of high performance. By optimizing your sleep patterns, you can improve your recovery, enhance your performance, and live a more fulfilling life.

**Navigating the Complexities of Sleep: A Comprehensive Guide to Sleep Cycles, Polyphasic Sleep, and Practical Tips for Better Sleep**

**Introduction:**

In this comprehensive guide, we delve into the world of sleep, exploring the intricacies of sleep cycles, the concept of polyphasic sleep, and practical strategies to enhance your sleep quality. Sleep is a fundamental pillar of our overall well-being, and by understanding its mechanisms and implementing effective sleep habits, we can unlock a world of improved performance, cognitive function, and overall health.

**Understanding Sleep Cycles:**

Sleep is not a monolithic state; it consists of distinct stages that we cycle through throughout the night. These stages are broadly categorized into two types: REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep and non-REM sleep.

1. **Non-REM Sleep:**

- **Stage 1:** This is the lightest stage of sleep, where you transition from wakefulness to sleep. Your body begins to relax, and your brain activity slows down.
- **Stage 2:** As you progress into Stage 2, your brain activity further decreases, and your body temperature drops. This stage comprises the majority of your sleep time.
- **Stage 3:** Also known as slow-wave sleep, Stage 3 is the deepest stage of non-REM sleep. Your brain activity is at its lowest, and your body is in a state of profound relaxation. This stage is crucial for restorative sleep and tissue repair.

2. **REM Sleep:**

- **REM Sleep:** REM sleep is characterized by rapid eye movements, vivid dreams, and increased brain activity. This stage is essential for memory consolidation, learning, and emotional regulation.

**Polyphasic Sleep: An Alternative Approach:**

Traditional sleep patterns involve a single prolonged sleep period during the night. However, polyphasic sleep challenges this notion by dividing sleep into multiple shorter periods throughout the day. This approach has gained popularity among individuals seeking to optimize their time and productivity.

1. **Benefits of Polyphasic Sleep:**

- **Increased Productivity:** By reducing the time spent in bed, polyphasic sleep can potentially free up more hours for work, hobbies, or other activities.
- **Enhanced Focus and Energy:** Shorter sleep periods may lead to heightened alertness and focus during waking hours.
- **Improved Creativity:** Some individuals report experiencing increased creativity and problem-solving abilities with polyphasic sleep.

2. **Challenges of Polyphasic Sleep:**

- **Adaptation Period:** Transitioning to polyphasic sleep can be challenging, as the body needs time to adjust to the new sleep schedule.
- **Social and Practical Considerations:** Maintaining a polyphasic sleep pattern can be difficult due to social and practical constraints, such as work schedules and family commitments.
- **Potential Health Risks:** There is limited scientific evidence regarding the long-term health effects of polyphasic sleep, and some experts caution against its potential impact on overall well-being.

**Practical Tips for Better Sleep:**

1. **Establish a Consistent Sleep Schedule:**

- Go to bed and wake up at roughly the same time each day, even on weekends. This helps regulate your body's internal clock and promotes a consistent sleep-wake cycle.

2. **Create a Relaxing Bedtime Routine:**

- Engage in calming activities before bed, such as taking a warm bath, reading a book, or listening to soothing music. Avoid stimulating activities like watching TV or using electronic devices, as the blue light emitted from these devices can interfere with sleep.

3. **Optimize Your Sleep Environment:**

- Ensure your bedroom is dark, quiet, and cool. Use blackout curtains to block out light, and consider using earplugs or a white noise machine to minimize noise disturbances.

4. **Avoid Caffeine and Alcohol Before Bed:**

- Caffeine and alcohol can disrupt sleep patterns and interfere with the quality of your rest. Avoid consuming these substances in the hours leading up to bedtime.

5. **Get Regular Exercise:**

- Regular physical activity can improve sleep quality and duration. However, avoid exercising too close to bedtime, as this can make it harder to fall asleep.

6. **Manage Stress and Anxiety:**

- Stress and anxiety can negatively impact sleep. Engage in stress-reduction techniques such as meditation, yoga, or deep breathing exercises to promote relaxation and improve sleep.

7. **Consult a Sleep Specialist:**

- If you have persistent sleep problems, consider consulting a sleep specialist. They can evaluate your sleep patterns, identify any underlying issues, and recommend personalized strategies to address your sleep concerns.

**Conclusion:**

Sleep is a vital aspect of our overall health and well-being. By understanding sleep cycles, exploring alternative sleep patterns like polyphasic sleep, and implementing practical sleep hygiene strategies, we can enhance the quality of our sleep and unlock the benefits it offers for our physical, mental, and emotional health. Remember, sleep is not a luxury; it's a necessity for a thriving and fulfilling life.

In this episode, sleep expert Nick Littlehales joins Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes to discuss the significance of sleep patterns in achieving high performance. Littlehales emphasizes the importance of viewing sleep not just in terms of hours but as part of a 24-hour cycle, breaking it down into 90-minute blocks. He highlights the value of getting sunlight first thing in the morning and taking a 20-minute break in the afternoon to refresh oneself.

Littlehales dispels the myth that one needs eight hours of sleep every night, emphasizing that it's the routine and consistency throughout the day that matters. He encourages listeners to focus on living life and not obsessing over sleep, allowing for occasional deviations without inducing anxiety.

Littlehales' approach is practical and achievable, emphasizing simple changes in daily routines rather than drastic lifestyle overhauls. He stresses the significance of removing "trash" from one's day and replacing it with beneficial habits, such as consuming vitamins and minerals.

The conversation shifts to the importance of working in harmony with natural circadian rhythms, akin to living on an island where one wakes up with the sun and goes to bed when it's dark. Littlehales advocates for aligning with the body's natural cycles rather than fighting against them.

The episode concludes with a call to action, encouraging listeners to share the podcast with someone who struggles with sleep, as it might positively impact their life. Littlehales emphasizes the value of spreading the knowledge gained from the episode and implementing practical changes to improve sleep patterns.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.380] Hi there, I'm Jake Humphrey and you're listening to the High Performance Podcast.
[00:05.380 -> 00:08.360] This podcast reminds you that it's within.
[00:08.360 -> 00:12.040] Your ambition, your purpose, your story are all there.
[00:12.040 -> 00:16.860] We just help unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers
[00:16.860 -> 00:18.600] into your life lessons.
[00:18.600 -> 00:23.720] Welcome along to a special High Performance Podcast in association with the wearable tech
[00:23.720 -> 00:29.880] brand, Whoop. high-performance podcast in association with the wearable tech brand whoop myself and professor Damien Hughes are about to speak to someone who could be a
[00:29.880 -> 00:37.080] genuine game-changer for you today we're joined by sleep expert Nick Littlehails
[00:37.080 -> 00:43.240] you can't change the world schedules but if you know that you're a morning type
[00:43.240 -> 00:45.120] and a Emma as I call them or a PMR you can make sure that you're a morning type an AM or as I call them or a PM
[00:45.120 -> 00:45.760] uh
[00:45.760 -> 00:49.160] you can make sure that you can optimize certain periods of the day and
[00:49.560 -> 00:53.600] Minimize the influences of things that could be slightly negative
[00:54.520 -> 00:56.520] So a lot of people listening to this
[00:57.880 -> 01:09.000] Absolutely guarantee it they might wake up around two or three o'clock in the morning and feel wide awake and can't get back to sleep. They might go to the toilet, they might sit there going, oh I'm trying
[01:09.000 -> 01:11.260] to go back to sleep and I can't get back to sleep.
[01:11.260 -> 01:12.260] Rings a bell?
[01:12.260 -> 01:18.800] If you look at the polyphasic approach, it's absolutely natural. How many people get a
[01:18.800 -> 01:25.420] solid 8 hours, 3, 6, 5, through all of those seasons, of those changes stop worrying about it
[01:25.920 -> 01:30.380] Even the people who seem to sleep really well can't tell you how they do it
[01:31.040 -> 01:33.040] Stop talking about nothing
[01:33.320 -> 01:39.360] Get this concept about the cycles and off you go. You know how much time you waste every day
[01:40.360 -> 01:45.600] But you should focus something on your own human ability to recover better.
[01:45.600 -> 01:52.400] And once you do that, you become more productive, you go faster, immunity systems.
[01:52.400 -> 01:56.240] I mean, we don't need to go into that, but everything about you is functioning at its
[01:56.240 -> 01:59.240] best and that's all you want.
[01:59.240 -> 02:01.360] So that's what you can expect on this episode.
[02:01.360 -> 02:04.920] Look, sleep is a fundamental of a high performance life.
[02:04.920 -> 02:05.000] I know that if I'm in a good place, my sleep is a fundamental of a high-performance life.
[02:05.000 -> 02:07.500] I know that if I'm in a good place, my sleep is good.
[02:07.500 -> 02:09.500] It's the foundation of everything that you do.
[02:09.500 -> 02:13.500] It's your opportunity for restoration of both your body and your mind.
[02:13.500 -> 02:14.500] But you know what?
[02:14.500 -> 02:17.000] So many people struggle with it.
[02:17.000 -> 02:20.000] And this podcast, by the way, is not about making you feel
[02:20.000 -> 02:21.500] that you aren't achieving enough, right?
[02:21.500 -> 02:23.500] We're not about clickbait headlines.
[02:23.500 -> 02:27.440] We're not here to ask salacious questions of our guests.
[02:27.440 -> 02:31.120] The high performance brand is purely and simply here
[02:31.120 -> 02:35.080] to help you live a more fulfilled, happier, satisfied life.
[02:35.080 -> 02:38.320] And sleep is central to this.
[02:38.320 -> 02:40.960] So as we prepare to start a brand new year,
[02:40.960 -> 02:44.080] today we welcome a human recovery game changer.
[02:44.080 -> 02:45.280] For over 20 years,
[02:45.280 -> 02:50.480] Nick Littlehails has led the planet in understanding and improving sleep and sometimes
[02:50.480 -> 02:54.720] like I'm desperate for people to come to this podcast even if they don't recognise the name
[02:54.720 -> 02:59.360] of the person who's on the headline. You probably have never heard of Nick Littlehails but what
[02:59.360 -> 03:05.000] he's about to say can change everything for you because he's worked with international elite athletes,
[03:05.000 -> 03:10.520] players, coaches, managers, sports scientists, whether it's Formula One, Liverpool Football
[03:10.520 -> 03:16.600] Club, Real Madrid, Team Sky, they've used Nick's techniques and now you get them distilled
[03:16.600 -> 03:22.920] down to an hour. This podcast may well be the thing that changes the game for you. So
[03:22.920 -> 03:26.280] grab a pen, grab some paper and make some notes.
[03:26.560 -> 03:33.880] And as I mentioned at the very start, this podcast is in association with Whoop and their sleep feedback has been fantastic for me.
[03:33.920 -> 03:39.520] Whoop is a wearable health and fitness coach that can help you to sleep better, to train smarter and to recover faster.
[03:39.760 -> 03:41.440] It's the go to for elite people.
[03:41.680 -> 03:42.640] And let me explain why.
[03:42.640 -> 03:45.880] So I've got my phone here, so I've got the Whoop app on my phone.
[03:45.880 -> 03:47.200] I wear the wristband,
[03:47.200 -> 03:48.600] which is constantly measuring my body.
[03:48.600 -> 03:50.160] So it's telling me that last night,
[03:50.160 -> 03:52.440] my recovery was 84%.
[03:52.440 -> 03:54.300] So therefore, I know that I'm primed today
[03:54.300 -> 03:56.360] to take on some strain, to go to the gym.
[03:56.360 -> 03:58.280] It's also telling me that my respiratory rate
[03:58.280 -> 04:00.040] was bang on last night, which is good news.
[04:00.040 -> 04:04.320] And also that I spent 28% of the night in REM sleep,
[04:04.320 -> 04:06.200] which is vital for emotional processing
[04:06.200 -> 04:07.160] and brain development.
[04:07.160 -> 04:08.640] I thought I felt good today.
[04:08.640 -> 04:11.560] But it's just an example of how incredible Whoop is.
[04:11.560 -> 04:13.480] If you're interested in improving your health
[04:13.480 -> 04:16.120] and performance in 2023,
[04:16.120 -> 04:21.120] then just go to join.whoop.com forward slash HPP,
[04:21.120 -> 04:24.640] join.whoop.com forward slash HPP
[04:24.640 -> 04:27.520] to get a 20% discount on a WOOP membership this holiday
[04:27.520 -> 04:30.920] season and the link is also in the description for this podcast.
[04:30.920 -> 04:35.640] Right, let's do it then. Here we go. Nick Little hails with stuff that you need to know
[04:35.640 -> 04:51.960] about your sleep on this high performance WOOP special. Enjoy. As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns, but
[04:51.960 -> 04:57.680] a deep voice doesn't sell B2B and advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
[04:57.680 -> 05:01.760] That's why if you're a B2B marketer, you should use LinkedIn ads.
[05:01.760 -> 05:06.320] LinkedIn has the targeting capabilities to help you reach the world's largest professional audience.
[05:06.320 -> 05:10.760] That's right, over 70 million decision makers all in one place.
[05:10.760 -> 05:16.200] All the big wigs, then medium wigs, also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[05:16.200 -> 05:18.280] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[05:18.280 -> 05:22.720] LinkedIn Ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[05:22.720 -> 05:27.820] So does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
[05:27.820 -> 05:29.320] voice in the world?
[05:29.320 -> 05:30.320] Yes.
[05:30.320 -> 05:31.420] Yes, it does.
[05:31.420 -> 05:35.940] Get started today and see why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be.
[05:35.940 -> 05:39.200] We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
[05:39.200 -> 05:42.420] Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit.
[05:42.420 -> 05:44.800] That's LinkedIn.com slash results.
[05:44.800 -> 05:49.080] Terms and conditions apply.
[05:49.080 -> 05:53.000] On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a better way so you
[05:53.000 -> 05:54.680] can live a better life.
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[07:29.000 -> 07:31.000] Well Nick, thank you very much for joining us on High Performance.
[07:31.000 -> 07:36.000] From a sleep perspective, what is your definition of high performance?
[07:36.000 -> 07:41.000] There's so many sort of, what we call, sort of human recovery variabilities when it comes to sleep.
[07:41.000 -> 07:47.000] I think the high performance in my world in elite sport and sleep was about identifying what you want to do
[07:47.800 -> 07:49.800] Define what you could do
[07:49.960 -> 07:55.920] Define what you need to do and then get on with it get it done, right in elite sport
[07:55.920 -> 08:00.900] They have all of the objectives and motivations goals and needs to achieve in certain time scales
[08:01.200 -> 08:05.200] but a lot of cases things get in the way and sleep can be a bit like
[08:05.200 -> 08:06.200] that.
[08:06.200 -> 08:09.240] So it's kind of, let's identify what you want to do.
[08:09.240 -> 08:16.760] Let's see what you could do and whether it equals success, success is the same thing.
[08:16.760 -> 08:17.760] It's not about failure.
[08:17.760 -> 08:18.760] It's just get it done.
[08:18.760 -> 08:23.640] I think where there's a real value in this conversation for the listeners is that if
[08:23.640 -> 08:28.640] you talk about most people when it comes to sleep, go well I'd like a bit more and I'd ideally not
[08:28.640 -> 08:31.760] like to be knackered most of the day and to be able to get to Friday without
[08:31.760 -> 08:36.240] feeling like I'm not gonna make it so from the kind of non elite sports
[08:36.240 -> 08:40.240] perspective what should we all be hearing you talk about where we just
[08:40.240 -> 08:44.540] want to feel a little bit better about life a bit more energy so we can
[08:44.540 -> 08:45.720] actually go and get the stuff done we really want to do a little bit better about life a bit more energy so we can actually go and get the stuff done
[08:45.720 -> 08:48.520] We really want to do one of the the biggest
[08:49.300 -> 08:55.040] Disruptors to sleep is actually worrying about it. You certainly in my journey. There was no definitive approach
[08:55.160 -> 09:00.240] So it was so like get your eight hours. Don't eat too late put your room at this temperature
[09:00.240 -> 09:02.240] You just went well, I can't do any of those
[09:02.320 -> 09:03.840] so I
[09:03.840 -> 09:06.360] Just have to make up a random approach to it.
[09:06.360 -> 09:12.800] So what I try to do is to take some of the things I've learned and give you a more definitive
[09:12.800 -> 09:16.680] approach something that is more natural to stop you worrying about how am I going to
[09:16.680 -> 09:24.000] sleep on Friday or Saturday or Sunday or Monday, try to reflect it as a rolling 24 hour process.
[09:24.000 -> 09:28.480] So it's more to do guys with what you do from the point of wake
[09:29.220 -> 09:33.860] When you go to sleep your brain takes over right? You're now out of control, right?
[09:33.960 -> 09:39.300] So that's a reflection of everything you've done from the point of weight
[09:39.300 -> 09:46.600] so I started to put things in place that would allow you to create that more natural recovery process
[09:46.600 -> 09:50.200] and just change the language a little bit, you know, because like you just said, you
[09:50.200 -> 09:55.960] mentioned sleep and somebody just mentions these things, but it's not a performance criteria.
[09:55.960 -> 09:58.100] It doesn't stop you taking the kids to school.
[09:58.100 -> 10:02.660] It doesn't stop you flying planes or doesn't stop you going to training.
[10:02.660 -> 10:05.000] So it's kind of, of well if that's the case
[10:10.640 -> 10:15.120] Why do we know it's so important? Why have we got this fear factor that if we don't get our eight hours We're gonna die later in life. Well, there must be a better way of looking at it not
[10:15.840 -> 10:19.640] Necessarily how we do it but a more natural approach to it. So I think that's
[10:20.400 -> 10:22.960] Where I started to find some success is
[10:23.680 -> 10:26.200] Things that we don't get in education.
[10:26.200 -> 10:28.400] So we don't get it from our parents.
[10:28.400 -> 10:30.700] We create this random approach.
[10:30.700 -> 10:35.400] So generally, most people are wandering around on refreshed.
[10:35.400 -> 10:40.500] Even the people who seem to sleep really well can't tell you how they do it.
[10:40.500 -> 10:43.500] But it was really just trying to find certain key factors.
[10:43.500 -> 10:49.320] I call them KSRIs key sleep recovery indicator finding little things that you can do
[10:49.320 -> 10:53.040] from the minute you wake up right the way around to the point when you go to
[10:53.040 -> 10:58.360] sleep again to really give your brain a chance to reveal and optimize your
[10:58.360 -> 11:02.160] recovery and stop you worrying about it. I love that point that you're making
[11:02.160 -> 11:05.640] there Nick around reframing the conversation about sleep
[11:05.640 -> 11:08.700] And I've been reading your excellent book sleep
[11:08.700 -> 11:13.780] And I found myself sort of repeating an awful lot of phrases
[11:14.380 -> 11:18.560] To my wife that she's looking at me having not read the book thinking what are you talking about?
[11:18.560 -> 11:22.400] Like the r90 pattern or what's your circadian?
[11:22.800 -> 11:25.440] rhythms that you get into and I think what would be
[11:25.440 -> 11:29.840] really helpful in this conversation is if you could help us with say some of
[11:29.840 -> 11:36.360] the top three tips that you've studied that can help us reframe understanding
[11:36.360 -> 11:40.720] how we all sleep better. I think the one thing there that your challenge is with
[11:40.720 -> 11:46.260] another influencer in your life you know know, because if you if you approach recovery and sleep on your own
[11:46.760 -> 11:53.000] Then it would be a little bit simpler, but we involve partners which makes it more complicated
[11:53.000 -> 11:59.240] so there's the sort of high-performance challenges is for you and your partner and anybody to
[12:00.080 -> 12:02.080] Define what they want to do
[12:02.680 -> 12:06.680] What they could do what they need to do get on with it neither and change your perspective
[12:07.200 -> 12:09.200] because as long as you keep thinking about
[12:09.440 -> 12:13.940] you know lions at the weekend and catching up on sleep and lost sleep and
[12:14.240 -> 12:19.760] Worrying about how you're gonna sleep tonight and what you've got to do tomorrow. That's really not a concept of performance at all
[12:19.760 -> 12:22.920] That's just constantly being worried about outcomes. So
[12:23.680 -> 12:25.520] the simple thing is I
[12:25.520 -> 12:32.360] identified seven KSRIs and it's a little journey when I got involved with British
[12:32.360 -> 12:36.240] cycling some years ago with their journey to put the first British rider
[12:36.240 -> 12:39.640] on the Tour de France podium Sir Bradley Wiggins it was the aggregation of
[12:39.640 -> 12:43.520] marginal gains so it's a kind of little bit like that so number one so you got
[12:43.520 -> 12:51.120] seven of them there's circadian rhythms, chronotypes, sleeping in cycles, pre and post, a better balance between recovery
[12:51.120 -> 12:57.360] and activities, environment and products. So there's the seven. So the first three is your
[12:57.360 -> 13:03.360] key steps. Just tap it in your browser. Circadian rhythms, right? You can get very scientific,
[13:03.360 -> 13:08.920] but the principle of circadian rhythms is to remind yourself that you're a human being on this planet
[13:09.320 -> 13:16.120] you have bodily functions that all relate to synchronizing yourself with the Sun going around our planet and
[13:16.880 -> 13:20.660] Basically, that's about light dark and temperature shifts, right?
[13:21.080 -> 13:27.480] There's no Monday Tuesday Wednesday to that Sun we put a clock on it So it just triggers our planet and we're part of that process, right? There's no Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday to that sun. We put a clock on it, so it just triggers our planet.
[13:27.480 -> 13:29.320] And we're part of that process, right?
[13:29.800 -> 13:33.800] We keep inventing things that take us further and further away
[13:34.200 -> 13:36.760] from this feral, natural process.
[13:37.320 -> 13:41.960] And we do keep identifying how important that is to be a little bit more
[13:41.960 -> 13:43.560] synchronized with that process.
[13:43.720 -> 13:46.280] It's not about being outside but just understanding it better
[13:47.280 -> 13:49.560] Number two is this genetic chronotype?
[13:50.080 -> 13:55.440] You know, I heard it owls and larks, you know, some people love the mornings, but it's a little genetic twist
[13:55.440 -> 14:03.160] It is how somebody responds to what's called blue light in daylight and how quickly they respond to producing a hormone called serotonin and
[14:03.800 -> 14:08.000] Serotonin tells us to be amazing right in every single way
[14:08.620 -> 14:09.900] so there's
[14:09.900 -> 14:13.740] That little bit about your chronotype and being aware of it
[14:13.740 -> 14:20.100] I'm sure so many people listening to this did not choose if they have a partner did not choose their partner
[14:20.460 -> 14:22.920] Because they were the opposite chronotype to them
[14:23.740 -> 14:25.960] So 2 a.m. Is together Because they were the opposite chronotype to them so to am is together
[14:26.520 -> 14:34.280] It's a struggle to PMS together can be a struggle an AMA and a PMA can work quite in harmony
[14:34.400 -> 14:39.220] So it's all the people around you your colleagues your friends like Jake you Damien
[14:39.320 -> 14:46.680] Everybody else's you can spot their chronotypes and they will try and do things in a particular way in any 24 hours
[14:46.960 -> 14:51.360] The principally is slightly different to you. Now. You can't change the world schedules
[14:51.760 -> 14:56.880] But if you know that you're a morning type an AM or as I call them or a PM
[14:56.880 -> 14:57.520] uh
[14:57.520 -> 15:00.920] you can make sure that you can optimize certain periods of the day and
[15:01.320 -> 15:05.840] Minimize the influences of things that could be slightly negative.
[15:05.840 -> 15:08.880] Not just thinking that you can just do anything, right?
[15:08.880 -> 15:10.160] Because there is a subtle impact.
[15:10.160 -> 15:16.440] And I think the one that's really the most fascinating for most is everybody taps it
[15:16.440 -> 15:17.440] in their browser.
[15:17.440 -> 15:18.440] I found it.
[15:18.440 -> 15:21.320] I had to go to a library, you know, that's how old I am.
[15:21.320 -> 15:25.760] But up until electric light came along there's no evidence that
[15:25.760 -> 15:30.940] human beings tried to sleep in one block we call it monophasic which is just one
[15:30.940 -> 15:35.680] block at night there were far more connected and synchronized to this Sun
[15:35.680 -> 15:39.360] rolling around our planet so there was midday there was late afternoon there
[15:39.360 -> 15:45.200] was nocturnal there's biphasic triphas, multiphasic sleep-wake cycles.
[15:45.200 -> 15:52.400] So it's kind of understanding that trying to get all of your recovery in one block,
[15:52.400 -> 15:56.800] probably we got away with it for a period of time, but certainly not over the last two
[15:56.800 -> 16:02.400] decades and into the future, because it puts that nocturnal sleep under too much pressure.
[16:02.400 -> 16:06.000] You can allocate as many hours you want to sleep,
[16:06.000 -> 16:12.080] eight, nine, ten, but it doesn't mean to say you're going to sleep because it's your brain
[16:12.080 -> 16:18.560] trying to reveal what you've been up to every day. So circadian rhythms, just get more aware of it,
[16:19.280 -> 16:24.240] your own personal chronocyte, be more aware of it in everything you do, major step forward,
[16:24.240 -> 16:25.720] and then just realize that
[16:26.120 -> 16:32.900] You know, why is it difficult to sleep at night because there's so many things going on around it to change your perspective
[16:33.120 -> 16:36.480] so I saw in a clinic a long time ago and
[16:37.200 -> 16:40.400] That the professors of sleep and everything else would wire you up
[16:40.720 -> 16:46.220] With all these things track your brainwave patterns and they would look at sleep in a 90-minute cycle, right?
[16:46.420 -> 16:53.320] Yeah, so they'd watch the brainwave patterns developing these stages and the stuff you really want is this deep sleep stuff to keep it
[16:53.320 -> 16:54.520] simple, right
[16:54.520 -> 16:59.340] All the stages are good. So then they'd look at the next 90-minute cycle. So what I thought was okay
[16:59.800 -> 17:04.440] This is about rolling cycles. So five 90-minute cycles is 7.5 hours
[17:05.360 -> 17:06.880] There's your eight
[17:06.880 -> 17:11.120] 5 15 in 15 out it happens to be the length of a football game
[17:12.080 -> 17:14.240] Which when I first started stepping out
[17:14.800 -> 17:18.880] Was working with manchester united and it sort of tried to change the language a bit
[17:19.360 -> 17:27.940] So we think cycles 90-minute cycles. The first two cycles are the most important one and then we can just go we have to create our sunrise
[17:28.500 -> 17:30.460] Because we don't sleep outside
[17:30.460 -> 17:37.340] So you create your sunrise by your anchor point, you know, what's your natural start to your day whether it's occupational whatsoever
[17:37.340 -> 17:43.740] So if that's 630 for example, and you're a morning chronotype chop your day up into 90 minute cycles
[17:41.720 -> 17:44.560] And you're a morning chronotype. Chop your day up into 90 minute cycles.
[17:44.560 -> 17:47.040] That gives you 16 90 minute cycles.
[17:47.040 -> 17:49.720] It gives you a series of little subconscious timings
[17:49.720 -> 17:52.160] and periods and phases where you can just
[17:52.160 -> 17:55.160] apply some really practical and achievable things
[17:55.160 -> 17:58.200] during that whole period to give your brain the best
[17:58.200 -> 18:01.400] opportunity to give you the best sleep it possibly can
[18:01.400 -> 18:03.360] and just stop worrying about it.
[18:03.360 -> 18:09.080] Can I just ask you what are those things that we should be doing then the practical easy to do things?
[18:10.200 -> 18:17.520] The first thing identify your anchor point Jake, you know, it's um, we've got this alarm clock on and this wait time
[18:17.920 -> 18:20.320] But that anchor point is your reset point
[18:20.320 -> 18:31.240] So if I choose sort of 630 because I'm a morning chronotype logo Then what's going to happen is I'm going to wake in my 16th cycle and that's between 5 and 630
[18:31.240 -> 18:39.080] I will wake switch the alarm off crack on what do I do in that first 90 minutes? Yes. It's about bowel
[18:39.080 -> 18:42.520] It's about bladder. It's about little mental challenges
[18:42.520 -> 18:48.380] It's about getting ready for your day, but the most important thing is your exposure to blue light
[18:49.120 -> 18:54.660] This is daylight and the daylight triggers this this serotonin hit
[18:54.660 -> 19:02.120] It's a little thing in your brain called a pineal gland that triggers serotonin that tells your brain to unsuppress everything make you active
[19:02.140 -> 19:08.160] So if the first things you want to do, whether you've got a lamp in your bedroom, whether you've got blackout curtains,
[19:08.360 -> 19:12.200] is the first thing you want to do is get yourself exposed to that level of light,
[19:12.200 -> 19:14.120] either with lamps or get outside.
[19:14.320 -> 19:16.240] You don't want to be dragging yourself through the day.
[19:16.440 -> 19:17.280] Right.
[19:17.480 -> 19:22.320] And we call them, you know, napping, snoozes for losers.
[19:22.520 -> 19:24.560] And I thought, well, actually,
[19:24.760 -> 19:28.800] in a polyphasic sleep approach that we've learned about for so many years,
[19:29.000 -> 19:33.000] it's not about napping in the sense that we see it.
[19:33.200 -> 19:37.720] It's about a little controlled recovery period, a CRP, as I call it.
[19:37.920 -> 19:41.120] Now, a CRP can be every 90 minutes.
[19:41.320 -> 19:44.000] I look for a little couple of minutes CRP.
[19:44.200 -> 19:49.500] What could that be? Hydration bottle on your desk, right? Half fill it. So you just
[19:49.960 -> 19:51.960] Go and refill it, you know
[19:52.080 -> 19:58.240] Maybe go and stand by a window and refill it and get a little bit of that light and increase your serotonin level
[19:58.280 -> 20:04.960] It could be just looking outside. I know what 90 minutes feels like I've not got a wristband going on driving me nuts
[20:04.940 -> 20:05.220] I know what 90 minutes feels like I've not got a wristband going on driving me nuts
[20:09.460 -> 20:09.900] What I do is just I'm very conscious of creating little
[20:15.380 -> 20:15.900] CRP and I suppose there's one thing that's good about being experienced and older is
[20:19.140 -> 20:19.360] A large proportion of my life was without technology
[20:24.440 -> 20:24.800] So I can identify what these little controlled recovery periods actually look like they weren't planned
[20:25.280 -> 20:27.820] But you try to bring some of those little things in.
[20:27.820 -> 20:29.700] It could be a bit of mindfulness.
[20:29.700 -> 20:30.960] Could be a bit of meditation.
[20:30.960 -> 20:36.500] It could be some binaural beats, listening to something, visualization, sensory.
[20:36.500 -> 20:41.580] I suppose when I walk into a building, I'm attracted to the light.
[20:41.580 -> 20:49.880] You know, so if I see windows down that side of the building, I'll walk that way to get to A and B rather than that way. And you start to get a really nice relationship
[20:49.880 -> 20:57.320] about that balance, that recovery rhythm about little moments. And there's loads of them,
[20:57.320 -> 21:02.920] but we we mess it up because we fill them up with everything else that we need to do
[21:02.920 -> 21:08.720] because we're so tech orientated. I find this so interesting. I didn't think that on a conversation about sleep
[21:08.720 -> 21:12.300] we'd be talking about looking for light. I thought you'd be saying find a dark
[21:12.300 -> 21:17.120] find a dark cupboard, get away from everyone, put on some airpods, put on some
[21:17.120 -> 21:20.280] meditation music. So can I just dive into a few of the little things that
[21:20.280 -> 21:27.080] you've mentioned so far. The evening, the a.m. p.m. thing thing. So I regularly without an alarm, wake up at 6 15.
[21:27.420 -> 21:31.600] My wife regularly is struggling to get out of bed when I take her a cup of tea at 7 15.
[21:32.720 -> 21:37.280] I am exhausted by 8 PM and she's like, what should we do or what should we watch?
[21:37.320 -> 21:38.160] Should we go in the gym?
[21:38.920 -> 21:43.200] Is there anything I can do to be better in the evening and anything she can do to be
[21:43.200 -> 21:44.040] better in the morning?
[21:44.600 -> 21:45.660] So the good thing is when you, when you meet somebody, I mean, if we have a little bit to be better in the evening and anything she can do to be better in the morning, so
[21:48.280 -> 21:51.520] The good thing is when you meet somebody I mean if we have a little bit more education like, you know
[21:51.520 -> 21:57.420] When parents are bringing their kids into the world, they sleep polyphasically kids, right because they're in the formative growth years
[21:57.660 -> 22:04.120] So they just sleep eat, you know, look after them go back to sleep again, and it just shifts as they go along
[22:04.120 -> 22:09.600] So if we were spotting that anyway, what you would spot is that that's probably a good partner for me
[22:09.600 -> 22:16.700] Yeah, because you just go do you love breakfast in the morning? And she said no, I hate it. Ah, yeah
[22:16.700 -> 22:21.080] Right. Well, this is what we need to do. Then if we're gonna be together, let's look at it like that
[22:21.260 -> 22:25.000] So what you do is this whole business of AMs,
[22:25.000 -> 22:27.580] PMs live in an AMs world.
[22:27.580 -> 22:29.860] You look at those two things and go, right,
[22:29.860 -> 22:32.360] we both need an anchor point, right?
[22:32.360 -> 22:35.520] Your two hour phase delay behind me,
[22:35.520 -> 22:37.840] because I'm an AM, you're a PM.
[22:37.840 -> 22:41.440] So what you do is if yours, let's say yours is 6.30,
[22:41.440 -> 22:43.400] hers would be more like, you know,
[22:43.400 -> 22:45.600] the next 90 minutes cycle along would be 8
[22:46.200 -> 22:52.440] Then you've got 930. So she'd probably choose if you both had you wonderful island. Yeah in complete control
[22:53.320 -> 22:58.660] She would probably choose 930 has her anchor point you choose 630, right?
[22:58.880 -> 23:04.420] But what you find is is if you both choose 630 because that's the am as world
[23:04.420 -> 23:08.000] You can't start your day at 930 in today's world unless you're very lucky
[23:08.660 -> 23:15.960] So you're both doing six that you both realize that your wife is too full 90-minute cycles early
[23:16.320 -> 23:20.480] So her relationship with light is even more important than yours, right?
[23:20.860 -> 23:24.480] She's got to get up. She's got to have an onrush start to her day
[23:21.000 -> 23:22.000] yours. Right.
[23:22.000 -> 23:23.000] She's got to get up.
[23:23.000 -> 23:25.280] She's got to have an onrush start to her day.
[23:25.280 -> 23:29.280] She's got to be able to get that serotonin going because that's appetizing bowel.
[23:29.280 -> 23:33.760] How many people just wake up, hit the alarm, jump on the tube or the Metro, jump in their
[23:33.760 -> 23:38.280] car and eat a nutritional bar and have a drink while they're driving or while they're
[23:38.280 -> 23:42.480] getting to work or trying to sort that out when they get there at work half asleep.
[23:42.480 -> 23:46.960] You've got to start your day earlier and you've got to give yourself some space with that
[23:46.960 -> 23:48.340] light and everything else.
[23:48.340 -> 23:53.480] Now the next bit, I don't want to be going to bed at 8, 9 o'clock at night in a 24-7
[23:53.480 -> 23:54.480] world.
[23:54.480 -> 23:55.480] No way.
[23:55.480 -> 23:56.480] I'm an AMer like you, right?
[23:56.480 -> 23:59.400] And the PMer has this second wind.
[23:59.400 -> 24:02.560] So they're quite happy to be up and around at 12, 1 o'clock.
[24:02.560 -> 24:03.560] We all know this.
[24:03.560 -> 24:05.280] Yeah, we all know this yeah we all know this it's
[24:05.280 -> 24:09.560] researched it's there it's a but we just ignore it so what I would do straight
[24:09.560 -> 24:16.080] away is you chop your day up into 90 minute cycles from your 630 Jake you've
[24:16.080 -> 24:20.040] got these little phases and you've got these little moments when you can grab a
[24:20.040 -> 24:23.920] little recovery break you can identify that your wife wants to go to the gym at
[24:23.920 -> 24:25.280] 8 o'clock at night and you don't.
[24:25.700 -> 24:30.640] You can identify that you probably can do that as long as you do some. So what you do is
[24:32.580 -> 24:36.900] 11 o'clock at night into 6.30 is 5 90-minute cycles, okay?
[24:37.160 -> 24:43.460] But there's also 4 cycles, which is 6 hours, right? And there's 3 cycles, which is 4 and a half hours, right?
[24:44.360 -> 24:49.200] When you start looking at that, you can say well for me as an AMA, I would much rather
[24:49.800 -> 24:54.060] Look as a targeted. I'm presenting myself to sleep time
[24:54.960 -> 24:56.280] closer
[24:56.280 -> 24:59.480] to 1230 rather than 11 and
[25:00.440 -> 25:04.960] Look for a really good four cycles and six hours, right?
[25:04.960 -> 25:05.560] And look for a really good four cycles and six hours, right?
[25:12.140 -> 25:12.200] Because if I can increase the quality in that period less disturbances, I'm gonna come out of it better
[25:17.640 -> 25:18.180] Then with the little CRPs every 90 minute little couple of minutes little this grab a moment
[25:23.960 -> 25:30.620] the other bit we put in is a 30 minute cycle because that's 30% of 90. All right a 30 minute cycle aka your nap period put that in either midday or late afternoon
[25:30.620 -> 25:37.400] Right now for an amers. It's late afternoon and that late afternoon is not about trying to go to sleep
[25:37.400 -> 25:41.160] It's not about going in sleep pods. It's not about trying to curl up in your bed
[25:41.160 -> 25:51.520] You know, we can fall asleep behind the wheel of a car on a motorway. Come on, what's that all about? So what you do is you say if I can grab a 30 minute period
[25:51.520 -> 25:57.200] and within that 20 minutes, 15 minutes where I'm just doing something like learning some new chords
[25:57.200 -> 26:02.160] on my guitar or just sitting and listening to or looking at something or reading a book,
[26:02.160 -> 26:05.040] anything at all is a vacant mind space.
[26:05.040 -> 26:08.280] If I do that every day, two things happen.
[26:08.280 -> 26:14.260] One, it takes the pressure off phase three as we call it, into midnight.
[26:14.260 -> 26:17.360] When you should be getting everything you need to get done.
[26:17.360 -> 26:23.360] Go to the gym, make some good food, deal with the kids, deal with your emails, deal with
[26:23.360 -> 26:26.000] your podcast stuff, get it all out the way
[26:26.000 -> 26:29.000] and then between 11 and 12 I'm chilling.
[26:29.000 -> 26:35.000] But the way it works is my brain, because I've given it some harmony, some rhythm
[26:35.000 -> 26:42.000] good start to the day anchor point, balance the light exposure in the first two phases of the day to keep the serotonin
[26:42.000 -> 26:45.680] and then that little 30 minutes minutes what it'll do is every
[26:45.680 -> 26:51.520] round again it'll tell me that probably in that little 30 minute session today or 20 minute session
[26:52.240 -> 26:59.440] we're probably going to have go into a micro sleep just nod it out right and so it's got this
[26:59.440 -> 27:05.960] lovely rhythm to its day and what it does is takes the pressure off. So if you look to see a slightly different,
[27:06.160 -> 27:12.960] more polyphasic approach for you and your wife is that she starts a day at six thirty,
[27:13.160 -> 27:16.680] you know, not drag herself into it, get this light, get that thing going,
[27:16.880 -> 27:21.000] mental, physical challenges, activity, bowel and bladder, get the appetite up.
[27:21.200 -> 27:27.040] And if both of you can find a way of creating it, even if it's 15 minutes
[27:27.880 -> 27:33.920] Creating a little vacant mind late afternoon. You know, I've got people will leave a training ground and
[27:34.640 -> 27:40.220] They'll sit in the car in the car park for 20 minutes before they drive off or they might stop a
[27:41.080 -> 27:43.080] couple of streets away from their home and
[27:43.400 -> 27:45.400] Just have 20 minutes before they
[27:45.400 -> 27:49.560] enter the house you sort of find this little space. Just to be clear we're not
[27:49.560 -> 27:53.800] talking about sleeping in those periods no what we're saying is doing something
[27:53.800 -> 27:58.220] that relaxes you in a different way gives you a kind of similar benefit
[27:58.220 -> 28:02.440] because the worry I've now got is if I do all that and I am I gonna get enough
[28:02.440 -> 28:05.180] sleep if I'm not if I'm dropping off at half 11 midnight and getting
[28:05.180 -> 28:10.380] Up at half 6. Well, I not I sort of worry then about the that hour or two less that I might be in bed
[28:10.800 -> 28:16.920] When you actually look, you know, we've got trackers now, which we didn't have before around sleep and everything
[28:17.560 -> 28:26.040] What you've got is you've got this understanding that just because you're following an approach of get your eight hours at night and you fall asleep
[28:26.540 -> 28:32.480] Do you get those restorative sleep stages because they only appear in the first two cycles of your sleep, right?
[28:32.480 -> 28:40.240] So you start 11 o'clock the first 90 minutes into 1230 your brain is trying to go. Okay, we're in a sleep state now
[28:40.760 -> 28:48.000] Da-da-da-da starts processing stuff, you know, we still digesting food partners noise all that stuff thoughts anxiety
[28:49.200 -> 28:54.040] It'll start to look for the deep sleep stages. It's only around 20% of
[28:54.560 -> 28:59.640] Any period right eight hours ten hours. It's only about 20% so easily lost
[29:00.520 -> 29:02.520] So in the first cycle, it'll look for it
[29:02.680 -> 29:07.920] It'll look for it again in the first cycle it'll look for it. It'll look for it again in the second cycle. It might get bits of it in the first and the second cycle.
[29:07.920 -> 29:12.320] Once you start getting into the third cycle, it becomes more tricky.
[29:12.320 -> 29:15.920] When you get into the fourth and fifth, that's about waking up.
[29:15.920 -> 29:21.720] Because if you imagine the sun circadian rhythms, it's set over here, phase three.
[29:21.720 -> 29:30.480] You've remained active, but it's already coming back to wake up your postcode. But so the other side of midnight is one o'clock in the morning
[29:30.920 -> 29:38.720] It's not one o'clock at night. It's a.m. Right is after midnight. It's moving towards morning. So a lot of people listening to this
[29:40.200 -> 29:45.040] Absolutely guarantee it they might wake up around two or three o'clock in the
[29:45.040 -> 29:49.080] morning and feel wide awake and can't get back to sleep they might go to the
[29:49.080 -> 29:52.720] toilet they might sit there going on trying to go back to sleep and I can't
[29:52.720 -> 29:56.320] get back to sleep rings about if you look if you look at the polyphasic
[29:56.320 -> 30:02.920] approach it's absolutely natural to wake up around two or three o'clock in the
[30:02.920 -> 30:05.120] morning after you've had two cycles pre
[30:05.680 -> 30:10.640] before and after midnight that's what i do then i panic i panic every night at half two why am i
[30:10.640 -> 30:15.760] not asleep what's going on now i'm gonna have an awful day tomorrow before light you'd be active
[30:15.760 -> 30:21.040] for a cycle or so and then you'd get another cycle then you would do that graveyard slot i mean in
[30:21.040 -> 30:29.000] spain and mediterranean they don't go home and go to sleep. Some people do, but they just do different things for a bit.
[30:29.000 -> 30:32.000] But we know what it feels like and we know how it comes.
[30:32.000 -> 30:37.000] So suddenly you just go, I've woken up at 2 o'clock because I checked the clock.
[30:37.000 -> 30:39.000] It could be about time to wake up and the alarm's going off.
[30:39.000 -> 30:41.000] So always check the clock.
[30:41.000 -> 30:43.000] What's happened?
[30:43.000 -> 30:47.440] I probably got a bit of deep sleep in the
[30:47.440 -> 30:51.200] first cycle bit of deep sleep in the second cycle balance with some light
[30:51.200 -> 30:56.320] sleep recovery I had a good day yesterday lots of CRPs little 20 minute
[30:56.320 -> 31:00.160] when I just nodded it off in my desk you know did that that was the brain
[31:00.160 -> 31:08.360] telling me not me so let's just remain active, not fully active, but the sleep onset
[31:08.360 -> 31:09.360] will come back.
[31:09.360 -> 31:11.920] So do you get up out of bed at those times?
[31:11.920 -> 31:17.680] The principle is yes. It's doing things that would be classically non-stimulating. You
[31:17.680 -> 31:21.840] know, it's not switching all the lights on, but it could be reading, it could be watching
[31:21.840 -> 31:30.040] something, it could be, you know, making something good for tomorrow's lunch. It could be reading, it could be watching something, it could be making something good for tomorrow's lunch, it could be ironing a shirt, it could be just sitting there listening
[31:30.040 -> 31:31.160] to some music.
[31:31.160 -> 31:35.400] It will come back, it will find you and you get another cycle.
[31:35.400 -> 31:48.600] If I can focus my day from a sort of circuit 12 o'clock target time rather than 11. Yeah, which puts me under a bit of pressure is that maybe my brain will go in and grab
[31:48.600 -> 31:55.840] that deep sleep in my first cycle a full 20% because I'm not still digesting food.
[31:55.840 -> 32:00.440] I'm not still walking around filling up my bladder with to wake up to go to the toilet.
[32:00.440 -> 32:03.400] I managed to get rid of all those thoughts and anxieties.
[32:03.400 -> 32:08.520] Now I'm I'm completely chilled. And the last thing I did was something for me, you know, I've got one player
[32:09.280 -> 32:15.740] We shifted it and they would just sit there and start playing some chords on the guitar that they never get chance to do
[32:16.600 -> 32:22.640] So you stop thinking about that sort of time as it's dark and you should be asleep
[32:22.680 -> 32:26.300] You're just looking at it as a 24-hour rolling process and
[32:26.820 -> 32:29.120] Immediately what happens is you fall asleep?
[32:29.900 -> 32:36.280] Off your brain goes grabs you deep sleep you wake in your fifth cycle, you know up to 630
[32:36.760 -> 32:42.640] Start your day crack on again little 20 minutes in the afternoon starts to become far more important
[32:43.280 -> 32:47.640] Anybody from a clinical aspects? Oh Nick's telling you to get less sleep.
[32:47.640 -> 32:48.640] No I'm not.
[32:48.640 -> 32:53.920] I'm just saying how many people get a solid eight hours, three, six, five, through all
[32:53.920 -> 32:56.840] of those seasons, all of those changes.
[32:56.840 -> 32:57.840] Stop worrying about it.
[32:57.840 -> 32:59.960] You know, how am I going to sleep on Friday?
[32:59.960 -> 33:01.520] Don't care.
[33:01.520 -> 33:07.460] Because every day, all I'm thinking about is how does my five cycles a day
[33:07.460 -> 33:13.860] best five a day how does that look four at night six little CRPs throughout the
[33:13.860 -> 33:18.500] day every 90 minute little 20 minute cycle there so I might be looking at 28
[33:18.500 -> 33:27.160] cycles so many CRPs seven little 30minute ones and suddenly the language just changes and the coaches
[33:27.900 -> 33:34.500] And anybody looking at it, but it's the same for anybody. They just go. Okay, we're looking for 590 minute cycles
[33:34.500 -> 33:36.520] I think we're looking at cycles
[33:36.520 -> 33:41.640] We're looking at how that reveals itself and maybe sometimes we're actually targeting not to sleep at all
[33:42.300 -> 33:44.300] because you know a
[33:44.700 -> 33:46.520] game of football the
[33:46.520 -> 33:51.000] night before there's so much adrenaline there's so much cortisol anxiety and
[33:51.000 -> 33:54.280] stress I might get injured and never play I might have to go home and miss it
[33:54.280 -> 34:01.200] it's like the birth of a child it's like an exam it's a first date all of these
[34:01.200 -> 34:06.920] things create so many things that says the last thing you want to be doing is trying to force yourself to sleep
[34:07.020 -> 34:13.760] We all can smash it the following day. I think you know, Chris Hoyer was one of those advocates and
[34:14.480 -> 34:22.180] You know Steve Redgrave was one of those advocates is is do other things to try and about recovery in certain moments
[34:22.180 -> 34:24.180] So when you look at somebody's week
[34:24.440 -> 34:28.360] It's not about focused on how am I gonna sleep here? How I'm gonna sleep there
[34:28.640 -> 34:31.720] It's just like well as long as I've got a nice rolling
[34:32.400 -> 34:33.560] 28
[34:33.560 -> 34:36.240] 90 minute nocturnal cycles back-to-back
[34:36.600 -> 34:42.160] As long as I've got CRP is cropping up in my day and as long as I've got those little sections there
[34:42.640 -> 34:44.640] cropping up and even
[34:44.200 -> 34:45.020] As long as I've got those little sections there cropping up and even
[34:51.100 -> 34:51.660] You know, I've seen people doing those 20-minute little things just sat on a sofa outside the studio
[34:53.660 -> 34:54.060] And nobody knows they're doing it
[35:00.360 -> 35:00.900] Nobody knows they're doing it because actually all you've done is you're just able to leave the room, but you still look
[35:04.460 -> 35:05.760] You know, I could be I could look like I'm reading a book or a script, but I'm actually
[35:05.760 -> 35:11.400] not. I can do CRPs in front of you guys, you just think I'm a good listener. Because I
[35:11.400 -> 35:19.120] don't say anything for a few minutes, you know what I mean?
[35:19.120 -> 35:24.400] As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns. But
[35:24.400 -> 35:26.000] a deep voice doesn't sell B2B.
[35:26.000 -> 35:30.000] And advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
[35:30.000 -> 35:34.000] That's why if you're a B2B marketer, you should use LinkedIn ads.
[35:34.000 -> 35:39.000] LinkedIn has the targeting capabilities to help you reach the world's largest professional audience.
[35:39.000 -> 35:43.000] That's right. Over 70 million decision makers all in one place.
[35:43.000 -> 35:48.640] All the big wigs, then medium wigs. Also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[35:48.640 -> 35:50.720] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[35:50.720 -> 35:55.160] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[35:55.160 -> 36:00.320] So does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
[36:00.320 -> 36:01.720] voice in the world?
[36:01.720 -> 36:03.920] Yes, yes it does.
[36:03.920 -> 36:05.160] Get started today and see why
[36:05.160 -> 36:10.680] LinkedIn is the place to be, to be. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next
[36:10.680 -> 36:14.920] campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit. That's
[36:14.920 -> 36:20.080] LinkedIn.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply.
[36:20.520 -> 36:24.440] On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a
[36:24.440 -> 36:25.440] better way so you
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[37:51.320 -> 37:56.640] slash HPP. Additional taxes fees and
[37:54.440 -> 38:01.880] restrictions apply see mint mobile for
[37:56.640 -> 38:03.720] details. So Nick can I ask you from a
[38:01.880 -> 38:06.640] parent's point of view because I think
[38:03.720 -> 38:08.920] as a father of a 13 year old and a 10 year old I think one of the... Good luck. Yeah
[38:08.920 -> 38:13.640] thank you. One of the biggest areas of conflict especially with my 13 year old
[38:13.640 -> 38:18.400] son is getting him to go to bed at a decent time because of he's got school
[38:18.400 -> 38:22.920] the next day and he's got to get up. What types of tips and advice could you offer
[38:22.920 -> 38:30.000] parents in terms of getting kids to bed on time and getting better sleep hygiene for them?
[38:30.000 -> 38:38.000] Oh, the sleep hygiene, it's a devil in itself that it makes you feel like you've got to disinfect yourself.
[38:38.000 -> 38:46.980] I think the first thing to do is just catch up really quick on this sort of basic element of awareness, right?
[38:47.040 -> 38:53.600] Then you can look at your two children in a in a slightly different way and your wife and yourself and just go look
[38:54.080 -> 38:58.160] If we'd have known this there's probably some things in our everyday behavior
[38:58.800 -> 39:02.680] That we could start to subtly change in a practical achievable way
[39:02.720 -> 39:05.520] It's a bit like telling one of your children to do their homework
[39:06.360 -> 39:08.360] You know before they go to bed
[39:08.800 -> 39:14.240] They're okay with that, but not your a.m. A child. They would have liked to have done it earlier
[39:14.240 -> 39:19.560] So it's little things like that. There's the light exposure, you know, we get things like, you know
[39:19.560 -> 39:25.300] Blue block of glasses shut your tech down blue lights bad for you get to bed and get your eight hours
[39:25.620 -> 39:31.060] Just trying to apply some of those little things is what do you do with your children?
[39:31.300 -> 39:34.860] From the start of your day. Are you creating an anchor point for them?
[39:34.940 -> 39:40.000] Have you got a lamp in their room not to help the a Emma me and Jake are fine
[39:40.100 -> 39:42.020] We just get up and off we go
[39:42.020 -> 39:45.920] But the piano needs a bit of help to get to the breakfast table
[39:46.240 -> 39:50.720] And rather than focus on you know, what can we do to get them to bed?
[39:51.280 -> 39:55.000] You focus on now as two parents, you know
[39:55.480 -> 40:02.280] That when you if you were thinking polyphasically if you were aware of that you would have been a more polyphasic
[40:02.920 -> 40:06.240] Couple than monophasic couple.
[40:06.240 -> 40:10.940] As soon as you found out you're going to have your first child, during those nine months
[40:10.940 -> 40:16.280] you would have really been able to manipulate your polyphasic approach because you know
[40:16.280 -> 40:19.760] what's coming, but it's not unusual.
[40:19.760 -> 40:30.200] Then as the kids start to go through that period, your polyphasic approach would be able to intertwine with their polyphasic approach, so there would be less impact on all of you.
[40:30.200 -> 40:34.560] And as they get a bit older and start to move, the last thing you want to do is what you're
[40:34.560 -> 40:40.960] doing as parents, you're trying to get those kids to sleep monophasically all through the
[40:40.960 -> 40:46.820] night, like you, not for their benefit, so that you can have some social time as parents
[40:47.120 -> 40:49.280] So you shift it back?
[40:49.880 -> 40:58.040] And go hang on a minute. We watch elite athletes footballs have to take penalties 11 o'clock at night or
[40:58.800 -> 41:05.960] swimmers on the other side of the world trying to do all sorts of and you just think hang on a minute if my son wants to I
[41:06.320 -> 41:08.320] Can identify with him?
[41:09.120 -> 41:11.580] That that's the best moments in his day
[41:11.580 -> 41:19.100] Then we can look at it slightly differently and make some subtle changes that really helps him. So it becomes less difficult
[41:20.040 -> 41:26.480] For him to go to sleep and enjoy his sleep because you've got more of an understanding of what you're doing
[41:26.480 -> 41:29.680] but I've seen a real growth in is
[41:30.920 -> 41:35.360] The fact that technology allows us to get anything we want at the end of our fingertips, right?
[41:35.360 -> 41:39.440] And and what that does is mean that we can get let down garden paths
[41:39.440 -> 41:45.380] It means we can find really positive things out. We can do really positive things without it
[41:45.380 -> 41:49.100] But at the end of the day there is an addictive behavior
[41:49.880 -> 41:57.600] So I get brought into clubs or to individuals because they might be using sleeping tablets. They might be using supplements
[41:57.600 -> 42:03.440] They might be using all little things that they can get online and deliver to their house and nobody knows they doing it
[42:03.480 -> 42:06.640] It's similar with a sort of tracker.
[42:06.640 -> 42:11.960] You know, there's some trackers that are really, really good, but there's lots of them now.
[42:11.960 -> 42:16.480] So you go from no education to tracking sleep.
[42:16.480 -> 42:19.120] That's not like nutrition and exercise.
[42:19.120 -> 42:28.500] You just jump straight in and there's already a medical term for the increased anxiety and stress and actually looking at sleep tracking data before you start your day
[42:29.360 -> 42:30.580] because
[42:30.580 -> 42:32.340] What do you do with it?
[42:32.340 -> 42:35.740] You know, how do you impact it on your life? So there's some really good things
[42:36.500 -> 42:38.660] But it's almost like what I say to people is
[42:39.420 -> 42:48.640] Whichever book you read my book this book research and everything else if you get those areas into your life right these practical things then you can actually
[42:48.640 -> 42:54.040] look at this tracking data properly you can take it as guidance right what you
[42:54.040 -> 42:58.400] don't look at it is is definitive because that's where it becomes more of
[42:58.400 -> 43:03.040] a problem right at this stage anyway so can I ask about technology then because
[43:03.040 -> 43:10.200] that leads us into some of the top tips that as we prepare to go to bed to get our 90
[43:10.200 -> 43:16.200] minute cycles in, what are the kind of things that that we can be doing to ease
[43:16.200 -> 43:21.440] that transition into into those cycles? So I'm asking specifically about
[43:21.440 -> 43:29.080] technology, about eating and like the kind of bedroom environment that we sleep in. What are the sort of top tips that any of
[43:29.080 -> 43:34.320] our listeners could incorporate into their day? When you come to sleep is this
[43:34.320 -> 43:38.680] health pillar that's attached on to everything else. So we want to eat
[43:38.680 -> 43:42.360] well, we want to exercise well, we want to do this and do that. Oh and then we just need
[43:42.360 -> 43:46.980] to sleep. Make it your first health pillar and do that in sport because
[43:47.860 -> 43:53.460] Everything you do will be slightly diminished to a greater or lesser degree if you're not recovering properly
[43:53.460 -> 43:55.460] So there's a key performance factor
[43:55.500 -> 44:01.000] The other thing is people when they get to sleep inside that all get a sleeping tablet. I'll get an eye mask
[44:01.060 -> 44:05.340] You know, I'll get this thing that affects my brainwave patterns or I'll get the
[44:05.820 -> 44:12.660] In isolation you try and find a little solution to something that's going on without looking at it outside of that, right?
[44:12.780 -> 44:18.380] So when you get to that particular point, it's like I'll get a new mattress. I'll get a new pillow
[44:18.380 -> 44:24.220] I'll get this pillow that sings to me or this pad that makes me cooler or whatever it is
[44:24.220 -> 44:29.560] I coach people to sleep anywhere anytime on anything in any way, right?
[44:29.680 -> 44:33.140] That's what we do as human beings on this planet
[44:33.280 -> 44:37.760] so wherever that person is up the side of a mountain in a sack or
[44:38.520 -> 44:43.680] Crossing the America on a mountain bike in the race across America or sight sailing around the world
[44:44.080 -> 44:46.020] For three months on your own in a race
[44:46.460 -> 44:52.000] That's what you have to do and you can do it. So when it comes to sort of things in isolation back to Priestly
[44:52.820 -> 44:57.540] There's only certain things you want to be worried about is take the pressure off that phase three
[44:57.540 -> 44:59.540] But we talked about before with Jake
[44:59.860 -> 45:06.240] Get your little recovery moments in start your day. Well get that little moment like you take your song for a walk
[45:06.640 -> 45:11.320] That's that's the 20-minute bit, isn't it? Or it could turn into sitting on a bench
[45:11.440 -> 45:15.820] It could turn into sitting by the river and the coast. Isn't it amazing?
[45:16.560 -> 45:23.520] Suddenly just step outside sit on a bench by a river by a coast in the woods, whatever and life
[45:26.720 -> 45:30.880] by a coast, in the woods, whatever and life is not as bad as it seems. That's the serotonin of the light and that's the balance right?
[45:30.880 -> 45:34.900] So you do all the things you want to do without pressure and worry right?
[45:34.900 -> 45:39.240] Get those emails done, get that done, get your homework done, eat some good food, freshly
[45:39.240 -> 45:43.920] made, get that out, watch a nice David Attenborough movie, whatever, you know, listen to some
[45:43.920 -> 45:45.600] music, play some games,
[45:45.600 -> 45:47.160] be on your tech, be off your tech,
[45:47.160 -> 45:49.200] but it creates that little bit of extra space.
[45:49.200 -> 45:53.000] So pre-sleep is nothing more than warm to cool
[45:53.000 -> 45:54.080] and light to dark.
[45:55.000 -> 45:58.440] That's the rhythm of our 24 hours in cicada.
[45:58.440 -> 46:01.660] That's the bitch that you focus on in that phase three.
[46:02.900 -> 46:05.900] The bit you want to focus on is your post sleep.
[46:06.860 -> 46:08.300] Whatever happened last night,
[46:08.300 -> 46:10.440] when I'm coaching people like in the military,
[46:10.440 -> 46:13.480] it's sort of like, it's like do a 180, as they call it,
[46:13.480 -> 46:14.820] which scared the pants out of me,
[46:14.820 -> 46:19.400] but when anything really goes wrong, as a squad,
[46:19.400 -> 46:22.580] they go up to the wall and chuck it in the wall,
[46:22.580 -> 46:24.260] turn around and walk away.
[46:24.260 -> 46:28.680] So it's not like you can get rid of it, but's like do this 180 so I think it's the same thing
[46:28.680 -> 46:33.280] you know when you wake up in the morning what time is it just before the alarm is
[46:33.280 -> 46:38.680] gonna go off in that fifth cycle that's okay what are you gonna do now forget
[46:38.680 -> 46:43.920] what you happened last night you woke up six times who cares you did you feel
[46:43.920 -> 46:45.000] refreshed I don't care
[46:45.000 -> 46:50.820] It should have take the emphasis away from that and suddenly you start waking up in the morning and going wow
[46:50.820 -> 46:52.820] I slept all the way through
[46:52.840 -> 47:00.440] How did that happen? Oh, it must be what I'm doing. It's starting to have more of an impact. So light
[47:01.280 -> 47:02.600] masses of light
[47:02.600 -> 47:07.280] Get that start to your day, right and the rest of it all sorts of follows so
[47:08.120 -> 47:13.220] There are certain things you can bring into your world outside interventions like a tracker
[47:13.760 -> 47:18.460] Like a supplement like a bit of a gadget. Maybe an eye mask. Maybe a
[47:19.100 -> 47:21.800] Something along those route you can bring it in maybe a pillow
[47:22.380 -> 47:26.440] Maybe get yourself a new mattress or something like that if you want to
[47:26.800 -> 47:31.080] But until you've gone on this journey, which we're touching on very briefly
[47:31.200 -> 47:35.560] But it's all unless you've gone on that sort of 7ks our journey
[47:35.840 -> 47:41.360] You can't make considered choices about these sort of things. So I go absolutely mad
[47:41.360 -> 47:45.400] I won't go on but you can ask me another question about light if you wanted.
[47:45.400 -> 47:50.080] But there is that wonderful thing when you hear advice, whatever it is, and you just
[47:50.080 -> 47:52.440] go, you can't be doing that.
[47:52.440 -> 47:55.280] Shut your tech down because blue light is bad for you.
[47:55.280 -> 48:00.460] And I haven't even told you that blue light is your amazing free energy source that makes
[48:00.460 -> 48:04.120] you as a human being function naturally.
[48:04.120 -> 48:06.080] Why are you telling me to shut my tech down?
[48:06.840 -> 48:12.800] Is it to manage the information overload or just let me be on my tech longer
[48:13.280 -> 48:15.640] by wearing glasses that protect me from the light?
[48:16.200 -> 48:17.280] Do you see what I mean?
[48:17.280 -> 48:21.080] So there's always these little what they call myths and misunderstandings.
[48:21.080 -> 48:23.000] It's not like creating something new.
[48:23.000 -> 48:24.200] But that was my journey.
[48:24.200 -> 48:27.880] I just saw you telling everybody to do this this but you're not telling them to do
[48:27.880 -> 48:31.700] that you're telling everybody to concentrate on the priestly but you're
[48:31.700 -> 48:35.160] not telling what to do in the first place there's so many things that just
[48:35.160 -> 48:38.660] with disjointed anyway there is something you could do which is a bit of
[48:38.660 -> 48:43.200] fun it's not scientific but it is a bit of fun if you wanted it go on I think
[48:43.200 -> 48:45.080] you'd enjoy it, Jake.
[48:49.360 -> 48:49.560] It's got these young athletes and the coaches are telling him to shut the tech
[48:51.440 -> 48:51.640] down and all this sort of stuff, and I'm just standing there.
[48:52.560 -> 48:52.760] Oh, come on.
[48:56.040 -> 48:56.240] You know, why do we feel so great when we just step outside?
[48:57.360 -> 48:57.560] So anyway,
[49:01.840 -> 49:02.040] jumped on the App Store, found a little
[49:05.480 -> 49:05.680] free light meter that just pops a little dial on your phone.
[49:08.960 -> 49:09.160] Yeah, it uses the camera to show me how much lights around me.
[49:09.840 -> 49:10.040] All right.
[49:13.280 -> 49:13.480] And it's Lux, which is lumens, the way you measure light.
[49:15.480 -> 49:15.680] So the first thing you get a nice
[49:19.560 -> 49:19.760] understanding about is that I'm sat here and probably where you are, Jake,
[49:27.280 -> 49:32.300] and you, David, mine's measuring about 32 Lux even in front of this computer you know you might be able to see oh it's gone up to a bit as I get closer to a five yeah
[49:32.300 -> 49:39.440] and if I just put that just closer to the window less than a meter away four
[49:39.440 -> 49:46.200] and a half thousand the hell well if I step outside It could be right now
[49:46.600 -> 49:48.320] 80,000 lots
[49:48.320 -> 49:49.800] It's not dangerous
[49:49.800 -> 49:56.240] But you remember when we first said is that if we're all outside and the Sun comes over the horizon
[49:56.560 -> 50:03.100] This daylight arrives the blue lights inside of it. It hits this little gland through your eyelids to the light receptors
[50:03.100 -> 50:05.540] It shifts you from a melatonin world
[50:05.540 -> 50:10.900] Which we hadn't touched on but that's diminished light into a serotonin world and that's happy
[50:11.540 -> 50:13.460] motivation alertness
[50:13.460 -> 50:17.260] challenges just being great as a person, right so
[50:18.100 -> 50:23.080] You just first of all get that thought process is everywhere you go
[50:23.660 -> 50:26.280] You can get scientific light meters is everywhere you go you can get scientific light meters
[50:26.280 -> 50:37.360] but everywhere you go where Jake is sat right now right so it's like outside
[50:37.360 -> 50:42.000] right seasonal dependent that's another one get rid of daylight saving time I
[50:42.000 -> 50:48.960] think America is gonna do it next October 23 they're gonna can it because it's only affects a certain level of the
[50:48.960 -> 50:52.440] population it's seasonal affective disorder it's our exposure to light I
[50:52.440 -> 50:55.920] wake up in the morning on days like this and before I got my jeans on it's going
[50:55.920 -> 51:02.960] dark yeah it's that sort of thing isn't it so I just did it in here I'm 132 I
[51:02.960 -> 51:05.080] put it to my window and it was four and a half thousand
[51:05.640 -> 51:11.800] Clinic experts light experts. I've been around them everywhere and they're probably all there's Nick again, right?
[51:12.320 -> 51:16.060] Using some free thing on his phone, but let's let's live in today's world
[51:16.880 -> 51:23.600] What I want you to do is just be more aware and you can tap it in your browser, you know
[51:24.160 -> 51:27.940] that blue light and daylight triggers serotonin
[51:28.760 -> 51:30.760] when the Sun sets it
[51:31.300 -> 51:38.800] Produces melatonin in the same gland and the melatonin tells you to suppress everything. It doesn't override you
[51:39.140 -> 51:43.220] it just sends a message to the brain to suppress functions and
[51:43.620 -> 51:47.080] The other one sends a message to unsuppress functions.
[51:47.080 -> 51:52.080] If I sit here talking to you for an hour,
[51:52.520 -> 51:57.520] I know the environment I'm in is melatonin production.
[51:57.960 -> 51:59.920] I'm trying to be positive.
[51:59.920 -> 52:02.220] I'm trying to have clarity.
[52:02.220 -> 52:06.320] The fact is my brain's been told to suppress everything.
[52:06.320 -> 52:07.960] So it's fighting.
[52:07.960 -> 52:10.440] As soon as I step out after this podcast,
[52:10.440 -> 52:11.920] or just go and stand by the window
[52:11.920 -> 52:14.060] and fill my hydration bottle up,
[52:14.060 -> 52:15.520] I know what's going on.
[52:15.520 -> 52:16.880] That's 5,000 lux.
[52:16.880 -> 52:19.300] Just look out the window and bang,
[52:19.300 -> 52:21.680] I'm keeping the levels up, right?
[52:21.680 -> 52:23.520] And that creates your rhythm.
[52:23.520 -> 52:26.880] As you both know, There's no point of coach
[52:27.520 -> 52:30.680] Telling someone to do this do that like that
[52:31.100 -> 52:35.260] What they have to do is take you on a little journey and they take you on a little journey
[52:35.260 -> 52:42.580] Then suddenly you end up going Wow. I do four cycles of night get full six hours. No disturbances
[52:42.580 -> 52:44.200] I do this in the morning
[52:44.200 -> 52:44.760] I
[52:44.760 -> 52:49.820] Think about lights and I've got this little lamp on my desk and have this little 20 minutes want to do that like that
[52:49.820 -> 52:52.180] And I know I can be active in the evening
[52:52.820 -> 53:00.300] Because I know what diminished light looks like it's not inactive light. It's just not the right levels. So that little lamp
[53:02.140 -> 53:11.200] Is bashing out 10,000 lux and the reason for that why they are 10,000 lux is because we do know
[53:11.200 -> 53:16.880] that if you're outside in 80 odd thousand lux your average exposure in the first two phases of the
[53:16.880 -> 53:23.280] day sunrise midday sunset is in that period you had an average of 10,000 lux that's where the lamp
[53:23.280 -> 53:26.920] comes from so you're looking up looking down moving around there's clouds so you're in of 10,000 locks. That's where the lamp comes from. So you're looking up looking down moving around those clouds
[53:27.120 -> 53:28.880] So you're in this
[53:28.880 -> 53:33.920] 80,000 locks world, but you're getting exposed to around an average of 10,000
[53:33.920 -> 53:37.600] That means sometimes it's right at the top. Sometimes it's lower, right?
[53:37.940 -> 53:40.840] So if you think in every 90 minutes
[53:41.520 -> 53:47.360] You would have an average of a thousand locks as an example so the first 90 minutes you would have an average of 1000 lux as an example.
[53:47.360 -> 53:53.720] So the first 90 minutes of your day are you going to get at least 1000 lux exposure.
[53:53.720 -> 53:57.400] And that's when you can just wander around your house, you know, brushing your teeth,
[53:57.400 -> 54:00.840] going to the loo, going into the kitchen, getting some breakfast.
[54:00.840 -> 54:04.480] You know, when am I going to get that big spike to get that average?
[54:04.480 -> 54:06.200] And you start to just keep thinking like that
[54:06.200 -> 54:09.360] And then later on which is one of your pre slip thing
[54:09.800 -> 54:15.800] It's as long as I know where melatonin light is it doesn't mean I'm inactive I could still be at the gym
[54:16.200 -> 54:19.020] I've been in CrossFit sheds in the US and
[54:20.080 -> 54:21.440] fluorescent tubes everywhere
[54:21.440 -> 54:27.860] So, but you know, you're trying to smash this piece of exercise routine out in a world that's telling
[54:28.080 -> 54:30.080] Everything else is telling you to suppress it
[54:30.600 -> 54:33.840] If you just moved over there and I think for your kids
[54:34.640 -> 54:37.120] one good tip for you day God is
[54:38.640 -> 54:42.300] Where are your kids gonna sit when they go to school?
[54:43.120 -> 54:46.200] What are you gonna do for them to get them to school?
[54:46.800 -> 54:51.200] Yeah, functional in the right way when they're going to take exams.
[54:51.200 -> 54:56.300] So if you look at a classroom and you see there's all those windows on the left
[54:57.000 -> 55:02.000] and the wall on the right, where do you want your son to sit is by the windows?
[55:02.000 -> 55:05.520] Yeah, because what you know, and we've done this in training
[55:05.520 -> 55:08.400] centers with top class premiership football clubs, right?
[55:08.800 -> 55:12.400] You should go identify the chronotypes of the squad and
[55:12.400 -> 55:12.920] the manager.
[55:13.600 -> 55:17.280] And we sit that lot over there and we sit that over there.
[55:17.800 -> 55:21.080] So everything I do is when I said before, I'm attracted to
[55:21.080 -> 55:25.520] the light because as long as I can keep thinking
[55:25.520 -> 55:27.240] a thousand lux average all the time,
[55:27.240 -> 55:30.420] I don't need to walk around with this all day long,
[55:30.420 -> 55:31.840] because I know what it looks like.
[55:31.840 -> 55:34.360] It looks like your office where you are now, Jake.
[55:34.360 -> 55:36.060] It looks like your office, doesn't it?
[55:36.060 -> 55:39.220] So you're always sort of going, oh, top up, yeah.
[55:39.220 -> 55:42.200] Where shall I meet you guys for a quick chat later on?
[55:42.200 -> 55:45.820] And you're sort of, well'll meet me in room three why room
[55:45.820 -> 55:48.820] three well because there's loads of windows in there and while we're
[55:48.820 -> 55:52.480] chatting I'm getting a hit of this wonderful stuff that makes me cope with
[55:52.480 -> 55:58.900] life so I stopped worrying about sleep it's natural how many of these things do
[55:58.900 -> 56:04.100] we not even think about doing or trying it's just like let's get some top tips
[56:04.100 -> 56:07.640] off a sleep expert get your eight hours. Don't eat too late
[56:08.360 -> 56:14.020] Sleep in a room that's 18 degrees, you know, it's wake time fix sleep time
[56:15.680 -> 56:22.680] Yeah, but I'm a nurse and I work shifts at night I work multi shifts I'm a presenter
[56:22.640 -> 56:25.760] I work multi shifts. I'm a presenter.
[56:28.000 -> 56:28.560] You know, it just doesn't, it doesn't work.
[56:33.200 -> 56:38.400] What is so interesting about that is that what I really want people to do is come to these episodes, Nick, and not feel like they're hearing the things they've heard many times from many
[56:38.400 -> 56:43.280] different people all in one small chunk. Like this is I look at all the questions I had for you about
[56:44.000 -> 56:47.800] should we aim for eight hours? Should napping be kept to 27 minutes, should men and women
[56:47.800 -> 56:50.880] need the same amount of sleep, do children need a structured bed routine?
[56:50.880 -> 56:54.440] All of them now are basically a totally irrelevant questions because this isn't
[56:54.440 -> 57:00.600] about the hours or the time or it's about your 24-hour cycle and I'm 44
[57:00.600 -> 57:06.780] years old. I've never had a conversation with anyone in 44 years about how does your 24 hour cycle look?
[57:06.780 -> 57:08.880] Break it down into 90 minute blocks.
[57:08.880 -> 57:10.980] Make sure you get the light first thing in the morning.
[57:10.980 -> 57:12.660] Make sure you have this 20 minute gap
[57:12.660 -> 57:16.380] sometime mid afternoon so that you can refresh yourself.
[57:16.380 -> 57:18.540] You know, I'm now thinking of the times
[57:18.540 -> 57:20.580] when my whoop band tells me I've had a great night's sleep
[57:20.580 -> 57:21.620] but I feel I've hardly slept,
[57:21.620 -> 57:22.860] but that kind of makes sense now
[57:22.860 -> 57:26.520] because I was basing it solely on the amount of hours I was in bed or when I
[57:26.520 -> 57:29.440] go and kick a ball around in the garden with my son I said to my wife only last
[57:29.440 -> 57:33.320] week I said every time I play football with him before bed he just goes out
[57:33.320 -> 57:36.440] like a light and there's me thinking oh it must be the football's worn him out
[57:36.440 -> 57:40.520] I mean we're talking 15-20 minutes but it isn't is it it's that break that
[57:40.520 -> 57:43.760] he's having mentally from the rest of his life and then he's ready for his
[57:43.760 -> 57:46.860] sleep, honestly I can't tell you how useful
[57:46.860 -> 57:53.780] I think I think you've just explained what my journey was all about and really what the outcomes of it is. It's a
[57:54.100 -> 57:56.840] It's a non academic. It's a non clinical
[57:57.540 -> 58:02.920] Picking your way through all these things that should be there and you've you know, if you wanted to describe it
[58:03.260 -> 58:08.400] you've just done it a lot of people what they say is I read your book, you know, and I
[58:09.320 -> 58:15.320] Think in fact, I know that I knew everything about what was in that book, but I'm not doing it
[58:15.760 -> 58:23.160] It's just like you just silly described. We're just being outside. I'm gonna kick about in the evening, you know
[58:23.120 -> 58:23.720] I'm gonna kick about in the evening, you know
[58:30.620 -> 58:31.440] Little tiny things of all those factors just add up you go. Why haven't I been doing this because life tells us
[58:32.900 -> 58:36.120] Everything else get eight hours and if you're not getting eight hours panic and if you wake up in the night worry and
[58:36.260 -> 58:39.640] Then you tell yourself all morning. I'm gonna feel awful today because I've no sleep
[58:39.640 -> 58:42.700] So you load up on the coffee you get a kick you get a drop and then it
[58:43.120 -> 58:45.000] Reinforces the fact that it was the lack of sleep
[58:45.000 -> 58:47.840] and it isn't, it's the 24-hour routine.
[58:47.840 -> 58:49.840] Fantastic, thank you so much, man.
[58:49.840 -> 58:50.920] I'd echo what Jake said.
[58:50.920 -> 58:52.160] I think when I read it,
[58:52.160 -> 58:55.080] I think what I found really refreshing about your approach
[58:55.080 -> 58:58.360] was the fact that there are very few rules.
[58:58.360 -> 59:00.400] You know, like I love the idea that you said,
[59:00.400 -> 59:02.520] this is about living life,
[59:02.520 -> 59:04.560] and I want you to be able to go out
[59:04.560 -> 59:05.040] and have a night
[59:05.040 -> 59:08.560] out at a party without worrying about sleep on the back of it.
[59:08.560 -> 59:10.140] I found it really liberating.
[59:10.140 -> 59:12.720] So this conversation has really reinforced it.
[59:12.720 -> 59:13.720] Thank you.
[59:13.720 -> 59:17.600] If anybody, anybody listening to this, if they listen to the way, you know, you've just
[59:17.600 -> 59:22.040] described it yourselves, it's just take that as your first step.
[59:22.040 -> 59:23.280] Think it's very practical.
[59:23.280 -> 59:24.280] It's very achievable.
[59:24.280 -> 59:28.260] You've not got to go and join the gym, you haven't got to go and buy some new equipment
[59:28.260 -> 59:32.060] or buy some expensive product or get this or get that.
[59:32.060 -> 59:35.760] You can just start this tomorrow morning, reflecting these things.
[59:35.760 -> 59:38.540] That's why they call it a game changer.
[59:38.540 -> 59:42.480] Put in sleep first, stop talking about sleep.
[59:42.480 -> 59:44.840] Stop talking about napping.
[59:44.840 -> 59:47.840] Get this concept about the cycles and off you go
[59:48.360 -> 59:55.520] I've got no time for those 20 minutes Jake will tell me Damien tells me I've got no time for those 20 minutes late afternoon
[59:55.520 -> 59:58.520] I said, do you know how much time you waste every day?
[59:58.760 -> 01:00:04.200] Yeah, but you should focus something on your own human ability to recover better
[01:00:04.200 -> 01:00:11.720] And once you do that, you become more productive you go faster immunity systems I mean we
[01:00:11.720 -> 01:00:15.000] don't need to go into that but everything about you is functioning at
[01:00:15.000 -> 01:00:19.320] its best and that's all you want listen mate thank you very much for your time I
[01:00:19.320 -> 01:00:26.880] think that is gonna be a real real value to people Nick. Oh it's been amazing, thank you Nick I really really love that thank you.
[01:00:26.880 -> 01:00:27.880] No problem.
[01:00:27.880 -> 01:00:28.880] Damien.
[01:00:28.880 -> 01:00:29.880] Jake.
[01:00:29.880 -> 01:00:39.680] Well that's completely changed my approach to sleep you know like to give you an idea
[01:00:39.680 -> 01:00:43.600] I get tired early in the evening so I think I've not had enough sleep I then wake up early
[01:00:43.600 -> 01:00:45.880] in the morning and think well have I woken up early I need more sleep I wake early in the evening, so I think I've not had enough sleep. I then wake up early in the morning and think, well, have I woken up early? I need more sleep.
[01:00:45.880 -> 01:00:47.120] I wake up in the night worrying
[01:00:47.120 -> 01:00:49.000] that I'm not having enough sleep.
[01:00:49.000 -> 01:00:52.720] And now breaking my day down into 90 minutes,
[01:00:52.720 -> 01:00:54.280] trying to make sure that every 90 minutes
[01:00:54.280 -> 01:00:56.080] I get a couple of minutes just to kind of have a break
[01:00:56.080 -> 01:00:59.480] or go outside, hitting the light first thing in the morning.
[01:00:59.480 -> 01:01:02.640] I love what he said as well about like removing the trash
[01:01:02.640 -> 01:01:03.560] and putting in the good stuff.
[01:01:03.560 -> 01:01:06.760] Cause I often won't sort of eat breakfast right I just don't fancy it
[01:01:06.760 -> 01:01:10.280] but it's only when I eat breakfast I actually then need to go to the bathroom
[01:01:10.280 -> 01:01:14.120] or whatever so actually what he's saying is get up do it quick remove the trash
[01:01:14.120 -> 01:01:17.520] and the toxins from your body put in the good stuff you know vitamins and minerals
[01:01:17.520 -> 01:01:21.320] I'd take athletic greens as you know like first thing do that and then off
[01:01:21.320 -> 01:01:24.880] you go so it's about changing your day right from the very beginning and
[01:01:24.880 -> 01:01:27.360] basically every question that I'd written that we
[01:01:27.360 -> 01:01:31.120] needed to speak to him about very quickly it became clear that those
[01:01:31.120 -> 01:01:35.120] questions were not the right questions basically because it's not
[01:01:35.120 -> 01:01:40.880] about more, better, deeper, longer sleep. It's about a total change to your day.
[01:01:40.880 -> 01:01:49.000] Yeah and I hope that people listening to this really embrace it and maybe explore it a little bit more detail. So in preparation for
[01:01:49.000 -> 01:01:53.280] today's interview I'd sort of read Nick's book and I was sort of getting
[01:01:53.280 -> 01:01:57.680] increasingly excited about it and when I was trying to tell my wife I was saying
[01:01:57.680 -> 01:02:02.160] oh we need to start thinking about these 90-minute cycles of sleep she was
[01:02:02.160 -> 01:02:09.200] looking at me as if to say what are you talking about? Is this another new fad that you're sort of trying to embrace?
[01:02:09.200 -> 01:02:10.640] But I think what Nick's done there
[01:02:10.640 -> 01:02:12.080] is break it down a little bit more
[01:02:12.080 -> 01:02:15.000] and get us to understand that a lot of this stuff
[01:02:15.000 -> 01:02:18.120] is going back to what our bodies already naturally know,
[01:02:18.120 -> 01:02:20.000] you know, working with the circadian rhythms
[01:02:20.000 -> 01:02:21.680] that he talks about.
[01:02:21.680 -> 01:02:24.160] Imagine that you lived on an island.
[01:02:24.160 -> 01:02:27.880] You'd wake up when the sun came up you go to bed when it's been dark
[01:02:28.160 -> 01:02:32.300] So there's serotonin and melatonin and things like that and the release
[01:02:32.580 -> 01:02:38.020] Most of it is what our bodies do naturally and I think what his message was really good at was working
[01:02:38.220 -> 01:02:44.700] Harmony with our natural cycles rather than fight against them. I really really enjoyed it. Thank you, brother
[01:02:48.860 -> 01:02:53.780] Loved it. Thanks Jake, that was brilliant. So there you go. Listen, I love these kinds of conversations where they are
[01:02:53.780 -> 01:02:57.660] about genuine game-changing techniques and understanding things that are part
[01:02:57.660 -> 01:03:01.700] of our life even better. So I would love to know what you think of this episode.
[01:03:01.700 -> 01:03:08.040] Ping me a message on Instagram or whatever but I think even more important than that, okay, we all work with, live
[01:03:08.040 -> 01:03:10.800] with and are related to people that struggle with their sleep, so if you
[01:03:10.800 -> 01:03:14.500] could just share this podcast with one person, I don't care whether it is on
[01:03:14.500 -> 01:03:18.600] your social media, on your WhatsApp, whether you just text someone, call them,
[01:03:18.600 -> 01:03:22.880] whatever, just try and get this podcast into the ears of one person because it
[01:03:22.880 -> 01:03:27.300] might just change everything for them. Thank you so much for continuing to spread the learnings you're
[01:03:27.300 -> 01:03:31.400] taking from these episodes. Thank you very much to Whoop for partnering with
[01:03:31.400 -> 01:03:34.120] us as well today. Don't forget if you want to get your hands on Whoop, click
[01:03:34.120 -> 01:03:38.360] the link in the description to this podcast for a 20% discount and remember
[01:03:38.360 -> 01:03:42.920] there is no secret. It's all there for you. So chase world-class basics. Don't
[01:03:42.920 -> None] get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic, and we'll see you soon. you