Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 05 Dec 2022 00:19:57 GMT
Duration:
1:05:42
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Adam Grant is an organisational psychologist, author, professor and host of podcast ‘Work Life’. His work focuses on how people can find motivation and meaning, rethink assumptions and live more creative and generous lives.
In this episode they focus on the best way to deal with criticism and feedback, why we should be fuelling our growth instead of our ego and why Adam’s close circle is made up of ‘disagreeable givers’.
They discuss why our responses are what’s important and truly reflect who we are. Adam has been teaching for over 15 years, he shares what makes a great teacher and how to write in a way that keeps people engaged. Find out the tools Adam uses to get closer to high performance.
- - - -
We're going on tour! We are travelling to 9 cities in 2023 for the High Performance Live Tour! Tickets are available now at: https://www.thehighperformancepodcast.com/live2023
OUT NOW! The High Performance Daily Journal - 365 ways to become your best! smarturl.it/HPJournal
Want even more from High Performance? Get ad-free episodes and bonus content every Wednesday. Sign up on Apple Podcasts apple.co/highperformance or Supercast https://highperformanceplus.supercast.com/
Subscribe to our YouTube to watch episodes : https://bit.ly/3UKkrRD
Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/highperformance/
Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/highperformancepodcast
Join our new Telegram: https://t.me/highperformance_circle
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
**Navigating Criticism and Feedback for High Performance**
* **Seek Targeted Feedback:** Ask specific questions to gather constructive criticism from others, rather than general feedback that may not be actionable.
* **Embrace Criticism as an Opportunity:** View criticism as a chance to improve and grow, rather than a personal attack.
* **Focus on Improving, Not Proving:** Shift the focus from defending oneself to actively seeking ways to enhance performance.
* **Identify Your True Audience:** Determine whose feedback truly matters and prioritize their opinions over those of casual observers or critics.
* **Define High Performance:** Establish clear criteria for evaluating performance and use that as a benchmark for assessing feedback.
* **Prioritize Collaboration:** Collaborate with colleagues and mentors who can provide valuable insights and challenge perspectives.
* **Embrace Disagreeable Givers:** Surround yourself with individuals who are willing to offer honest and critical feedback, even if it's unpleasant to hear.
* **Cultivate a Growth Mindset:** Believe that abilities and intelligence can be developed through effort and learning, rather than being fixed traits.
* **Practice Active Listening:** Engage fully in conversations, paying attention to both verbal and nonverbal cues to understand the intent behind feedback.
* **Respond, Don't React:** Take time to process and reflect on feedback before responding, avoiding impulsive reactions that may be counterproductive.
* **Seek Feedback from Diverse Perspectives:** Value feedback from individuals with different backgrounds, experiences, and viewpoints to gain a comprehensive understanding of areas for improvement.
* **Celebrate Mistakes:** View mistakes as learning opportunities and embrace them as part of the growth process.
* **Develop a Thick Skin:** Build resilience to criticism by recognizing that not everyone will appreciate or agree with your work or ideas.
* **Focus on the Second Score:** Shift the focus from the initial negative feedback (the first score) to how you respond and improve (the second score).
* **Give Credit Where It's Due:** Acknowledge the contributions of others and recognize their role in your success.
* **Practice Gratitude:** Express appreciation for those who provide valuable feedback and support your growth.
* **Pay It Forward:** Offer constructive feedback to others in a supportive and respectful manner, helping them grow and improve.
* **Embrace Feedback as a Gift:** Recognize that feedback is a valuable gift that can help you become the best version of yourself.
**Navigating Criticism and Feedback for High Performance: Insights from Adam Grant**
**Building Strong Relationships Through Disagreeable Giving:**
- Adam Grant emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with "disagreeable givers" - individuals who provide constructive criticism not for personal gain but to help one grow.
- Disagreeable givers offer valuable insights and challenge one's assumptions, leading to improved performance and growth.
- The key is to ensure that criticism is delivered with the intention of helping rather than hurting, and that the recipient is open to receiving and learning from it.
**Effective Feedback Techniques:**
- Use the "19-word technique": Start feedback with a statement like "I'm giving you these comments because I have very high expectations and I'm confident that you're going to reach them." This sets a positive tone and shows belief in the recipient's potential.
- Ask for self-assessment before providing feedback: Encourage the recipient to reflect on their own performance and identify areas for improvement. This helps align their perspective with yours and makes them more receptive to your feedback.
- Use open-ended questions to encourage self-reflection: Ask questions like "What went well?" and "What were your notes for yourself?" This promotes a growth mindset and helps the recipient take ownership of their development.
**Creating a Culture of Constructive Disagreement:**
- Foster a culture where disagreement is seen as a positive force for growth and learning.
- Encourage team members to respectfully challenge each other's ideas and assumptions, leading to more innovative and well-rounded solutions.
- Set clear expectations and guidelines for constructive disagreement, ensuring that it remains respectful and focused on the issue at hand.
**Overcoming the Fear of Disagreement:**
- Challenge the notion that disagreement is always negative. View it as an opportunity for growth and learning.
- Recognize that disagreement can lead to better decision-making and outcomes, as it brings diverse perspectives and insights to the table.
- Practice disagreeing respectfully and constructively, focusing on the issue rather than the person, and avoiding personal attacks or defensiveness.
**Balancing Agreeableness and Disagreeableness:**
- Strive for a balance between agreeableness and disagreeableness. Being too agreeable can hinder constructive feedback and growth, while being overly disagreeable can create a hostile environment.
- Aim to be disagreeable when necessary, but always with the intention of helping others improve and grow.
- Remember that the goal is to create a culture of constructive disagreement where everyone feels safe to share their honest thoughts and ideas.
**Additional Insights:**
- Effective teachers are passionate about the material they teach and the students they teach. Getting to know students individually can create a strong connection and make learning more engaging.
- Writing in a way that keeps people engaged involves using relatable examples, storytelling, and asking thought-provoking questions.
- To achieve excellence in any field, it's important to build a strong connection with the audience and surprise them with unexpected insights or perspectives.
**Introduction**
- The episode focuses on dealing with criticism, fueling growth instead of ego, and the importance of having disagreeable givers in one's close circle.
**Key Points**
- **Responding to Criticism:**
- Adam Grant believes that responses to criticism reflect who we are.
- Instead of agreeing to disagree, he prefers to ask for feedback to understand where the conversation went wrong.
- This approach helps identify patterns and allows for course correction in future conversations.
- **Clarity in Relationships:**
- Clear expectations and communication are crucial for successful relationships.
- Asking "Why are you here?" helps clarify the purpose of seeking advice and ensures that the advice is relevant and valuable.
- Providing clarity on the goals of seeking advice helps others understand the context and tailor their responses accordingly.
- **Imposter Syndrome:**
- Adam Grant challenges the idea of imposter syndrome as a chronic debilitating disease.
- He believes that imposter thoughts are common and can motivate individuals to work harder, learn more, and seek feedback from others.
- Rather than viewing it as a syndrome, he suggests using imposter thoughts as fuel for growth and improvement.
- **Non-Negotiable Behaviors:**
- Adam Grant's three non-negotiable behaviors are striving for excellence, being candid with each other, and focusing on collective contribution rather than individual success.
- **Feedback in Interviews:**
- Adam Grant emphasizes the importance of asking guests for feedback after interviews.
- This practice has changed the way Damian and Jake approach their conversations, leading to more valuable insights and a deeper understanding of the guest's perspectives.
- **Setting Expectations:**
- Clear communication and setting expectations are crucial in various aspects of life, including relationships, family dynamics, and everyday interactions.
- By communicating expectations, individuals can avoid disappointment and ensure that others understand their intentions and goals.
- **Negotiation and Conversation:**
- Life is a negotiation and a two-way conversation.
- Setting the parameters of conversations and clarifying expectations helps manage the expectations of both parties and leads to more productive and fulfilling interactions.
- **High-Performance Community:**
- The High-Performance community is built on sharing stories and experiences that inspire and motivate others.
- Jermaine Blackwood, a listener who shared his journey of personal and professional growth, exemplifies the impact of the podcast on its listeners.
- His drive to better himself, despite facing challenges, highlights the importance of perseverance and the desire for continuous improvement.
- **Fault and Responsibility:**
- Jermaine Blackwood emphasizes the concept of fault and responsibility as crucial in his life.
- He believes that while external factors may be beyond one's control, responding to them positively and taking responsibility for personal actions is essential.
- This mindset helps him focus on what he can control and take proactive steps to improve his situation.
- **Key Messages from High Performance:**
- Vicky Patterson's message about self-care and prioritizing personal well-being resonated with Jermaine Blackwood.
- Robin van Persie's message about winners taking responsibility and focusing on what they can control also had a significant impact on him.
- These messages align with Jermaine's belief in personal responsibility and the importance of continuous growth and improvement.
**Conclusion**
- The podcast episode highlights the importance of clear communication, seeking feedback, and fostering a growth mindset.
- It emphasizes the value of having disagreeable givers in one's close circle and the power of a high-performance community in inspiring and motivating individuals to achieve their goals.
[00:00.000 -> 00:07.800] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey. This is High Performance, the podcast that reminds you it's within.
[00:07.800 -> 00:12.640] Your ambition, your purpose, your story are all there. We just help unlock it by turning
[00:12.640 -> 00:17.840] the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. So right
[00:17.840 -> 00:26.580] now allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes to speak to one of the greatest academics and thinkers on the planet so that he can be your teacher.
[00:26.580 -> 00:30.420] Today, this awaits you.
[00:30.420 -> 00:31.880] I think that what stops most of us
[00:31.880 -> 00:34.520] from achieving high performance or even higher performance
[00:34.520 -> 00:36.440] is that we're more interested in improving ourselves
[00:36.440 -> 00:38.460] than we are in improving ourselves, right?
[00:38.460 -> 00:40.440] So we're trying to feed our egos
[00:40.440 -> 00:42.460] as opposed to fuel our growth.
[00:42.460 -> 00:44.940] And I think if you have a group of people around you,
[00:44.940 -> 00:45.000] just like an athlete would with a coach, as opposed to fuel our growth. And I think if you have a group of people around you,
[00:45.000 -> 00:47.000] just like an athlete would with a coach,
[00:47.000 -> 00:49.000] who are solely there to ask,
[00:49.000 -> 00:51.000] how can I help you get better?
[00:51.000 -> 00:53.000] It's really hard not to grow.
[00:53.000 -> 00:56.000] And I think we should show that work much more often.
[00:56.000 -> 00:59.000] Can I criticize in a way that actually makes you better?
[00:59.000 -> 01:01.000] One of my favorite experiments showed
[01:01.000 -> 01:03.000] that you could say about 19 words
[01:03.000 -> 01:06.500] to dramatically increase people's openness to criticism.
[01:06.500 -> 01:08.000] And those 19 words are roughly,
[01:08.000 -> 01:11.000] I'm giving you these comments because I have very high expectations
[01:11.000 -> 01:13.500] and I'm confident that you're going to reach them.
[01:13.500 -> 01:15.500] The everyday flickers of doubt,
[01:15.500 -> 01:19.500] of wondering, am I as good as other people think I am?
[01:19.500 -> 01:24.000] And if you don't have those, you're at risk for arrogance or narcissism.
[01:24.000 -> 01:27.440] If you never doubt whether other people
[01:27.440 -> 01:28.960] are overestimating you,
[01:28.960 -> 01:31.800] then you are not putting yourself in a position
[01:31.800 -> 01:33.840] to keep growing and challenging yourself.
[01:34.940 -> 01:36.720] So today we welcome Adam Grant
[01:36.720 -> 01:38.100] to the High Performance Podcast.
[01:38.100 -> 01:40.240] I always kind of hate this bit in some ways,
[01:40.240 -> 01:41.880] because how do you sum up someone
[01:41.880 -> 01:45.480] as fascinating and interesting as Adam Grant in 30 seconds?
[01:45.720 -> 01:50.560] So basically what you need to know is he's an organizational psychologist
[01:50.560 -> 01:55.320] He is one of the world's leading experts on how you can find motivation how you can find meaning in your life
[01:56.000 -> 01:59.740] Rethinking the way that you see the world living a more generous and creative life
[02:00.080 -> 02:10.500] And he's been recognized as one of the ten most influential Management thinkers in the world. He's the number one New York Times best-selling author of five books. They are fantastic
[02:10.500 -> 02:12.720] I can't recommend them highly enough and I think
[02:13.720 -> 02:20.720] Probably on his website right if you go to Adam grant net the first quote on there is the most meaningful way to succeed
[02:21.200 -> 02:26.880] Is to help others succeed and I think in so many ways that sums up what this conversation on high performance is all
[02:26.880 -> 02:27.880] about.
[02:27.880 -> 02:31.980] He is one of the brightest, most engaging and interesting of guests that we've had.
[02:31.980 -> 02:35.360] And if you follow him on social media, you'll already know the way that he thinks and operates.
[02:35.360 -> 02:39.360] I mean, this is something that he put on Twitter a few days ago, which I think is fantastic.
[02:39.360 -> 02:43.620] He says, changing your mind is not a sign of losing integrity.
[02:43.620 -> 02:45.620] It's a mark of gaining wisdom
[02:49.880 -> 02:50.760] Realizing you were wrong doesn't mean you lack judgment. It means you lacked knowledge
[02:58.080 -> 03:03.320] Opinions are what you think today growth comes from staying open to revising your views tomorrow, and I love that man We live in this world don't we where if anyone changes their mind everyone dives upon them. We need to stop that man
[03:03.400 -> 03:06.040] Let's all be able to make mistakes and change our minds
[03:06.040 -> 03:08.760] and make what the press call U-turns
[03:08.760 -> 03:10.400] without everyone diving on us.
[03:10.400 -> 03:12.320] So Adam's going to talk about building culture,
[03:12.320 -> 03:13.720] communicating better with people,
[03:13.720 -> 03:15.920] dealing with the crap stuff that life throws our way.
[03:15.920 -> 03:18.240] This is a really empowering episode
[03:18.240 -> 03:22.320] that I hope will equip you for a great 2023.
[03:22.320 -> 03:23.680] It really is a good one.
[03:23.680 -> 03:27.320] So let's get to it and welcome Adam Grant
[03:27.320 -> 03:29.200] to the High Performance Podcast.
[03:32.180 -> 03:35.320] Lads, are you making sure that every part of you
[03:35.320 -> 03:37.440] is high performance this Christmas?
[03:37.440 -> 03:40.520] And I mean, even the parts that people don't see very often
[03:40.520 -> 03:42.400] because today we're working with Manscaped
[03:42.400 -> 03:44.040] on the High Performance Podcast
[03:44.040 -> 03:49.120] and they have got the Lawnmower 4.0 so if you want to make sure that
[03:49.120 -> 03:54.000] every part of your body is looking how it should then the Lawn Mower 4.0 body
[03:54.000 -> 03:58.560] trimmer and the Weed Whacker nose hair and ear trimmer might just be the thing
[03:58.560 -> 04:02.720] for you plus both are waterproof so um you know there's no issues clearing the
[04:02.720 -> 04:05.760] snow out of your driveway so to speak. So if
[04:05.760 -> 04:10.400] you want people to say all I want for Christmas is you, then maybe you should think about going
[04:10.400 -> 04:17.920] to manscaped.com forward slash high performance for free shipping and 20% off. Make sure you
[04:17.920 -> 04:29.720] look your best and feel your best at the start of 2023. As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns.
[04:29.720 -> 04:35.440] But a deep voice doesn't sell B2B, and advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
[04:35.440 -> 04:39.520] That's why if you're a B2B marketer, you should use LinkedIn ads.
[04:39.520 -> 04:43.480] LinkedIn has the targeting capabilities to help you reach the world's largest professional
[04:43.480 -> 04:44.480] audience.
[04:44.480 -> 04:48.520] That's right, over 70 million decision makers all in one place.
[04:48.520 -> 04:54.000] All the big wigs, then medium wigs, also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[04:54.000 -> 04:56.040] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[04:56.040 -> 05:00.480] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[05:00.480 -> 05:05.620] So does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
[05:05.620 -> 05:07.120] voice in the world?
[05:07.120 -> 05:09.220] Yes, yes it does.
[05:09.220 -> 05:13.740] Get started today and see why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be.
[05:13.740 -> 05:17.000] We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
[05:17.000 -> 05:20.220] Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit.
[05:20.220 -> 05:22.600] That's LinkedIn.com slash results.
[05:22.600 -> 05:26.680] Terms and conditions apply.
[05:30.120 -> 05:32.040] On our podcast, we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a better way so you can live a better life.
[05:32.320 -> 05:35.360] And that's why when I found Mint Mobile, I had to share.
[05:35.680 -> 05:39.720] So Mint Mobile ditched retail stores and all those overhead costs and instead
[05:39.960 -> 05:43.760] sells their phone plans online and passes those savings to you.
[05:44.080 -> 05:46.800] And for a limited time, they're passing on even more savings,
[05:46.800 -> 05:51.760] with a new customer offer that cuts all Mint Mobile plans to $15 a month
[05:51.760 -> 06:00.320] when you purchase a 3 month plan. That's unlimited talk, text and data for $15 a month.
[06:00.320 -> 06:04.000] And by the way, the quality of Mint Mobile's wireless service,
[06:04.000 -> 06:09.860] in comparison to providers that we've worked with before is incredible. Mint Mobile is here to rescue
[06:09.860 -> 06:15.440] you with premium wireless plans for $15 a month. So say goodbye to your overpriced wireless
[06:15.440 -> 06:20.580] plans, those jaw-dropping monthly bills, those unexpected overages, because all the plans
[06:20.580 -> 06:27.000] come with unlimited talk and text and high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
[06:27.000 -> 06:31.480] Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan, bring your phone number along with all your
[06:31.480 -> 06:33.040] existing contacts.
[06:33.040 -> 06:37.640] So ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's limited time deal and get premium wireless
[06:37.640 -> 06:40.600] service for just $15 a month.
[06:40.600 -> 06:45.280] To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15
[06:45.280 -> 06:52.880] bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com.hpp.
[06:52.880 -> 06:58.560] Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com.hpp.
[06:58.560 -> 07:00.940] Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply.
[07:00.940 -> 07:07.000] See Mint Mobile for details.
[07:07.000 -> 07:11.000] Well Adam, first of all welcome to High Performance, it's a pleasure to have you
[07:11.000 -> 07:14.000] with us. What is High Performance, Adam?
[07:14.000 -> 07:19.000] I think of High Performance as achieving excellence, and not just
[07:19.000 -> 07:22.000] achieving it once, but being able to sustain it over time.
[07:22.000 -> 07:31.360] And do you feel you're there? Never. I hope that my performance keeps getting higher, but it seems like an impossible standard
[07:31.360 -> 07:38.000] that I'm always approaching and then falling short of and then raising the bar.
[07:38.000 -> 07:41.920] It's interesting this because we speak to a lot of people who understand the power of
[07:41.920 -> 07:46.660] getting close without quite getting there. Do you feel you're, are you close to excellence?
[07:46.660 -> 07:49.240] I think I'm closer than I've ever been before.
[07:49.240 -> 07:53.940] And how every day do you keep going to try and get closer? What are the tools that you
[07:53.940 -> 07:54.940] employ?
[07:54.940 -> 07:58.100] One of the things I find really motivating is worrying that I'm going to let other people
[07:58.100 -> 08:08.840] down. I think often I do my best work when I know other people are depending on me. And that pressure, it's not all pressure.
[08:08.920 -> 08:12.800] You know, some of it is a sense of responsibility
[08:12.800 -> 08:17.000] and gratitude, but it's gone up over time as,
[08:17.000 -> 08:19.480] I guess as my books and podcasts and TED Talks
[08:19.480 -> 08:21.240] have reached a bigger audience,
[08:21.240 -> 08:24.100] I felt like there are more people counting on me
[08:24.100 -> 08:26.640] to produce interesting,
[08:26.640 -> 08:32.120] useful insight. And I wake up in the morning thinking, if I don't have a thought that other
[08:32.120 -> 08:39.040] people find valuable, then I've had a pretty bad day. I'm wasting my time. And that motivates
[08:39.040 -> 08:41.240] me to keep trying to generate knowledge.
[08:41.240 -> 08:49.060] But that really intrigues me, Adam. Like I was thinking this about you recently, I saw you post about talking about, you used the
[08:49.060 -> 08:53.300] example of Martin Luther King's speech and the importance of leaders having to
[08:53.300 -> 08:57.040] repeat the message and when you're tired of it that's when you need to repeat
[08:57.040 -> 09:01.980] even more. And what I was wondering was, how tired do you get of having to go out
[09:01.980 -> 09:06.240] and search for this kind of
[09:04.000 -> 09:08.840] knowledge and then to try and weave it into
[09:06.240 -> 09:11.400] a story that then engages? That's quite
[09:08.840 -> 09:13.680] a demanding process. I could not feel more
[09:11.400 -> 09:15.840] differently about it. I think I have the
[09:13.680 -> 09:18.480] greatest job on earth, that I get to go
[09:15.840 -> 09:20.280] and read and learn about anything I
[09:18.480 -> 09:23.720] think is interesting and call that my
[09:20.280 -> 09:25.440] job, right? But basically my, my, one of
[09:23.720 -> 09:25.280] my core responsibilities at work
[09:25.280 -> 09:29.120] is to be curious and to be a disciplined learner.
[09:29.120 -> 09:31.800] And I can't imagine a more meaningful or exciting job
[09:31.800 -> 09:32.600] than that, right?
[09:32.600 -> 09:37.320] That I get to do this whole discovery process.
[09:37.320 -> 09:41.440] And I can say, yep, that's actually in my job description.
[09:41.440 -> 09:44.000] So what are you curious about at the moment?
[09:44.000 -> 09:45.240] At the moment? I am curious So what are you curious about at the moment? At the moment?
[09:45.240 -> 09:47.520] I am curious about what you're curious about
[09:47.520 -> 09:51.800] and what the high performance audience most wants to know.
[09:51.800 -> 09:53.000] Right, okay.
[09:53.000 -> 09:55.800] What do the high performance audience most want to know?
[09:55.800 -> 09:56.840] What would you say, Damien?
[09:56.840 -> 09:58.800] Because I think we know our audience quite well.
[09:58.800 -> 10:00.200] What do they most want to know?
[10:00.200 -> 10:02.800] What's the most value that Adam could give them?
[10:02.800 -> 10:06.640] Well, I think there's something
[10:04.440 -> 10:08.240] really intriguing Adam about your work
[10:06.640 -> 10:10.320] and Jake and I were talking about this
[10:08.240 -> 10:12.240] before we came on. I think one of the most
[10:10.320 -> 10:14.720] powerful pieces of work that you've ever
[10:12.240 -> 10:17.840] produced has been that last chapter of
[10:14.720 -> 10:21.320] your book Think Again, where you share the
[10:17.840 -> 10:23.760] first draft of that book after people
[10:21.320 -> 10:25.120] have finished the completed version and
[10:23.760 -> 10:27.160] that was the bit that to me really resonated above all else because a
[10:27.720 -> 10:34.500] lot of my work and where my interest lies is the work in the shadows the stuff that nobody ever sees that eventually leads to
[10:34.500 -> 10:39.720] The high performance and I think that's what this podcast tries to shine a light in those shadows
[10:40.580 -> 10:47.800] so you're a guy that delivers, like you've won these awards for your teaching skills
[10:47.800 -> 10:49.880] and for the way you engage.
[10:49.880 -> 10:51.440] Take us into the shadows.
[10:51.440 -> 10:52.440] How do you do that?
[10:52.440 -> 10:55.600] Jon Skript Well, I appreciate that that was what stuck
[10:55.600 -> 11:03.680] out at you because that was an agonizing experience for me to go from telling my students, look,
[11:03.680 -> 11:06.000] I'm writing a book about rethinking
[11:06.000 -> 11:08.000] and I don't want it to end.
[11:08.000 -> 11:11.240] And I just want the last chapter,
[11:11.240 -> 11:13.920] I wanna do an epilogue and it's just gonna be a blank page.
[11:13.920 -> 11:15.800] And the message is,
[11:15.800 -> 11:18.100] look, I'm still open to rethinking everything.
[11:19.160 -> 11:20.500] And they hated that idea
[11:20.500 -> 11:22.920] with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
[11:22.920 -> 11:25.200] Who did, the publisher or the students?
[11:29.360 -> 11:29.920] My students said, this is the worst idea you've ever had. You can't have a blank page.
[11:37.360 -> 11:38.240] Your responsibility as an author is to really have something to leave us with, right? To,
[11:44.960 -> 11:46.160] you know, something poignant or moving or even just funny, right? That will leave us, that will keep us thinking.
[11:46.160 -> 11:49.040] And I thought back a couple of times and I said,
[11:49.040 -> 11:51.520] conclusions are the dumbest part of a book.
[11:51.520 -> 11:53.020] I'm not writing a book report.
[11:53.020 -> 11:54.840] I don't need to tell you what I already told you.
[11:54.840 -> 11:57.040] You can go back and reread it if you want to.
[11:57.040 -> 11:58.020] You can re-listen to it.
[11:58.020 -> 12:00.000] It's not that hard, right?
[12:00.000 -> 12:03.200] And finally, one of my students said,
[12:03.200 -> 12:06.040] what I would really love
[12:06.040 -> 12:08.400] is if you showed us your process
[12:08.400 -> 12:10.540] and how you rethought along the way.
[12:10.540 -> 12:12.400] And I resisted that idea.
[12:12.400 -> 12:13.980] Like, no, I don't wanna show you
[12:13.980 -> 12:16.660] all the garbage and drivel that I've thrown out.
[12:16.660 -> 12:19.840] I'm trying to protect you from that as a reader or a listener
[12:19.840 -> 12:21.080] but the more I thought about it,
[12:21.080 -> 12:22.800] the more I realized that
[12:22.800 -> 12:25.420] when people are at the top of their game,
[12:25.420 -> 12:30.420] we find them almost unattainable.
[12:30.540 -> 12:33.140] They seem so great that they're out of reach
[12:33.140 -> 12:34.660] for mere mortals.
[12:34.660 -> 12:36.980] And they're supposed to be inspiring,
[12:36.980 -> 12:38.580] but they just become daunting.
[12:39.800 -> 12:42.960] And I thought, okay, the best way to show
[12:42.960 -> 12:47.340] how difficult this work is of trying to get to high performance
[12:47.340 -> 12:49.800] is to actually show the work behind the scenes
[12:49.800 -> 12:51.420] along the way, the shadows.
[12:51.420 -> 12:56.060] And I think part of the reason that I wanted to,
[12:56.060 -> 12:57.900] I guess, to be transparent about that was to say,
[12:57.900 -> 13:00.780] look, a huge part of whatever high performance
[13:00.780 -> 13:02.340] I've achieved in the eyes of others,
[13:02.340 -> 13:04.480] even if I don't think I've gotten there yet
[13:04.480 -> 13:09.920] and met my own goals, is having a challenge network, a group of people who are thoughtful critics,
[13:09.920 -> 13:14.640] who hold up a mirror and help me see my own blind spots more clearly. And that's what that group of
[13:14.640 -> 13:19.280] students did when they were reading drafts of my book chapters. They would tear them apart
[13:19.280 -> 13:23.280] in service of trying to make them better. And I think that what stops most of us from
[13:23.280 -> 13:27.920] achieving high performance or even higher performance is that we're more interested in improving ourselves than we
[13:27.920 -> 13:33.040] are in improving ourselves. So we're trying to feed our egos as opposed to fuel our growth.
[13:33.760 -> 13:37.920] And I think if you have a group of people around you, just like an athlete would with a coach,
[13:38.880 -> 13:45.600] who are solely there to ask, how can I help you get better? It, it's, it's really hard not to grow. And
[13:45.600 -> 13:47.560] I think we should show that work much more often.
[13:47.560 -> 13:50.640] Speaker 3 Which again, so I mean, I love you explaining
[13:50.640 -> 13:55.800] it because I thought it was incredibly brave, but as I say, that was a bit that really resonated
[13:55.800 -> 14:02.160] because that idea of almost subfusing your ego, being able to put your ego to one side
[14:02.160 -> 14:08.160] to go, this is what I did do. And this is the ideas that didn't work or the feedback that was a bit bruising.
[14:08.520 -> 14:11.520] And I'm interested in how do you go about doing that?
[14:11.520 -> 14:19.280] Well, I think I learned it early on when I was afraid of public speaking early on and as a shy introvert,
[14:19.280 -> 14:22.040] I was just extremely uncomfortable getting on stage.
[14:22.040 -> 14:25.880] And I said the only way to get over this is to practice.
[14:25.880 -> 14:30.200] And I've got to seek out the very experience that
[14:30.200 -> 14:31.320] makes me cringe.
[14:31.320 -> 14:33.480] So I started volunteering to give guest lectures
[14:33.480 -> 14:37.200] in my friends' classes when I was in grad school.
[14:37.200 -> 14:39.960] And I said, every lecture, I'm going
[14:39.960 -> 14:41.480] to give out a feedback form, and I'm
[14:41.480 -> 14:43.560] going to ask the students what I could do better.
[14:43.560 -> 14:46.720] And I'm not going to have the benefit of a relationship with the audience where I have
[14:46.720 -> 14:50.800] a whole semester to earn their trust and, you know, show how much I care about them.
[14:50.800 -> 14:53.600] I'm just going to get evaluated by people who saw me for an hour.
[14:53.600 -> 14:55.440] Mason So what questions did you ask on that
[14:55.440 -> 14:59.360] feedback form that our listeners could, could maybe think about adopting?
[14:59.360 -> 15:01.680] Steve It was really simple. It was,
[15:01.680 -> 15:05.160] what can I do better? What should I do better? Uh, what should I do more of?
[15:08.480 -> 15:11.220] And what should I change? And that's it. Yeah. I've evolved that approach over time when I have more, more targeted goals for what I'm trying to
[15:11.220 -> 15:16.320] work on. But at that point, I just, I wanted to know everything. And the
[15:16.320 -> 15:20.660] feedback was brutal. I had one student, right. That I was so nervous. I was
[15:20.660 -> 15:24.120] causing them to physically shake in their seats. Another wrote that I
[15:24.120 -> 15:29.960] reminded them of a Muppet because I moved so awkwardly, and they never told me which one. But I remember
[15:29.960 -> 15:36.320] reading that feedback and thinking, I can't change that perception. I can't convince them
[15:36.320 -> 15:43.560] that I wasn't nervous or that I come across as really smooth on stage. All I can do is
[15:43.560 -> 15:46.720] try to make a better impression the next time.
[15:46.720 -> 15:50.880] And later, my colleague Sheila Heen told me there's a name for what I was doing.
[15:50.880 -> 15:53.800] She said, you're giving yourself a second score.
[15:53.800 -> 15:56.640] The first score was garbage, and you can't change it.
[15:56.640 -> 15:58.320] And most of us are obsessed.
[15:58.320 -> 16:04.060] Those students were giving me clearly, you know, C minus, D plus, not a good mark, right?
[16:04.060 -> 16:06.000] And most of us, we try to change that score.
[16:06.000 -> 16:09.360] We fight with the judge. We go to the teacher and tell us,
[16:09.360 -> 16:15.280] no, no, I really deserved an A. And what I have found enormously helpful throughout my career is
[16:15.280 -> 16:20.320] realizing I can't change the first score. All I want to do is ace the second score,
[16:20.320 -> 16:26.780] which is the response to the first score. So, I want to get an A plus for how well I take the C minus.
[16:26.780 -> 16:29.140] And that idea of just saying, you know what,
[16:29.140 -> 16:31.820] I'm going to rate myself on how well I take feedback,
[16:31.820 -> 16:33.460] as opposed to, you know,
[16:33.460 -> 16:36.020] asking do I want to accept the feedback or not,
[16:36.020 -> 16:37.300] has made it so much easier to learn
[16:37.300 -> 16:38.340] from the people around me.
[16:38.340 -> 16:39.180] I love that.
[16:39.180 -> 16:41.720] We interviewed an entrepreneur who told us that,
[16:41.720 -> 16:44.220] make your comeback bigger than your setback,
[16:44.220 -> 16:46.760] which seems to capture exactly what you're saying.
[16:46.760 -> 16:48.320] That's a great way of phrasing it.
[16:48.320 -> 16:52.320] And it's the kind of thing that I think comes in handy
[16:52.320 -> 16:56.920] in situations where you're not prepared to be criticized.
[16:56.920 -> 16:58.800] It's easy to take other people's feedback
[16:58.800 -> 17:00.360] when you've sought it out,
[17:00.360 -> 17:02.000] or when you have a relationship with somebody
[17:02.000 -> 17:04.280] who is your coach or your mentor.
[17:04.280 -> 17:07.740] I think the hardest moments are the ones where, where somebody, yeah, just,
[17:08.040 -> 17:09.320] there's actually research on this.
[17:09.320 -> 17:12.600] Um, a group of my colleagues have called it a swoop and poop.
[17:14.560 -> 17:18.200] Basically somebody flies in, they drop a bunch of crap on you.
[17:18.560 -> 17:20.340] Uh, and then good luck, right?
[17:20.340 -> 17:21.400] You have to clean up the mess.
[17:21.840 -> 17:27.240] And I think those situations are where it's most critical to be able to give yourself that second score
[17:27.240 -> 17:30.520] and say, okay, I've got to ace my response to this mess,
[17:30.520 -> 17:32.880] not claim I didn't make a mess in the first place
[17:32.880 -> 17:36.840] or point fingers at the people who dumped it on me.
[17:36.840 -> 17:39.640] So can I ask you for a bit of advice, please?
[17:39.640 -> 17:40.840] Bring it on.
[17:40.840 -> 17:43.760] Aside from this podcast, I work as a football presenter,
[17:43.760 -> 17:46.480] a sports presenter, a sports host here in the UK.
[17:46.480 -> 17:51.480] And I get just pelters of abuse on social media
[17:51.900 -> 17:53.660] every single time I'm on the telly.
[17:53.660 -> 17:57.000] And part of my brain goes, well, it's unfounded nonsense.
[17:57.000 -> 17:59.780] You know, people assume, you know, he's so bad,
[17:59.780 -> 18:02.220] he must've had a family member in TV, right?
[18:02.220 -> 18:03.100] Which is not true.
[18:03.100 -> 18:04.980] Or, oh, he's such a posh kid.
[18:04.980 -> 18:05.040] Also not true, just, oh, he's such a posh kid,
[18:05.040 -> 18:08.600] also not true, just like state school educated.
[18:08.600 -> 18:11.080] But every time I do it, I get that.
[18:11.080 -> 18:15.120] And I'm well aware that if you do my job, that will happen.
[18:15.120 -> 18:19.980] But I still find it really hard to deal with what I think is unfair criticism.
[18:19.980 -> 18:23.000] So the only way I think I deal with it, is just by saying to myself, well, they're all
[18:23.000 -> 18:28.520] idiots, they must be jealous, right? What is the way that I should be dealing with that sort of
[18:28.520 -> 18:32.280] criticism that I think is unfounded? Because just ignoring it, it still doesn't hurt any
[18:32.280 -> 18:33.280] less.
[18:33.280 -> 18:36.520] Yeah, I actually think it's a really interesting question. And it captures something that everybody
[18:36.520 -> 18:41.000] lives a version of now. My first comment would be to say, it's interesting to observe your
[18:41.000 -> 18:45.640] reaction to it. Right. So I think one of the mistakes that people
[18:45.640 -> 18:50.880] make when they face criticism is they're basically
[18:50.880 -> 18:54.160] responding from a place of saying, OK, I've
[18:54.160 -> 18:55.760] got to defend myself.
[18:55.760 -> 18:58.560] And psychologists would call it the totalitarian ego,
[18:58.560 -> 19:01.400] where it's like there's a mini dictator who lives in your head
[19:01.400 -> 19:04.280] and it's controlling the flow of information to your brain,
[19:04.280 -> 19:07.000] a little bit like Kim Jong-un controls the press.
[19:07.000 -> 19:08.000] Right?
[19:08.000 -> 19:11.360] So only good gets in, and we're going to filter out all the bad.
[19:11.360 -> 19:15.480] And that's obviously a missed opportunity for learning, because there might be a signal
[19:15.480 -> 19:17.040] in all that noise.
[19:17.040 -> 19:21.280] And so if you get defensive or you tune it out altogether, you're basically saying, there
[19:21.280 -> 19:28.160] is nothing that my audience has to say that can teach me anything or make me better at my work. And you don't want to go there. And that's why you haven't
[19:28.160 -> 19:33.320] stopped reading it altogether. You still scroll on social media. And then you end up letting
[19:33.320 -> 19:38.240] in too much of the criticism and it just drags you down, right? It kills your motivation.
[19:38.240 -> 19:42.480] So the question is, what do you do instead? So why do you think that criticism makes you
[19:42.480 -> 19:44.480] so upset?
[19:44.480 -> 19:47.080] I think it makes me so upset because it is,
[19:47.080 -> 19:49.060] because I feel like I can't do anything about it.
[19:49.060 -> 19:51.760] So I try the hardest I can to be as good as I can
[19:51.760 -> 19:52.880] at being a TV presenter,
[19:52.880 -> 19:55.740] and it doesn't make any difference.
[19:55.740 -> 19:57.440] And it also annoys me
[19:57.440 -> 20:00.040] because it changes the way I behave, right?
[20:00.040 -> 20:01.920] Like you've said it perfectly,
[20:01.920 -> 20:03.440] you know, we spend our time proving ourselves
[20:03.440 -> 20:05.140] rather than improving ourselves.
[20:05.140 -> 20:07.900] It forces me down the road of proving myself.
[20:07.900 -> 20:10.300] So instead of like,
[20:10.300 -> 20:12.660] I will just do something that is ego driven.
[20:12.660 -> 20:14.460] I'll put something on social media that's ego driven.
[20:14.460 -> 20:15.620] And then that brings more criticism.
[20:15.620 -> 20:18.960] I think, shit, why did I feel the need to prove that
[20:18.960 -> 20:21.020] or tweet that or share that?
[20:21.020 -> 20:22.420] But I know why.
[20:22.420 -> 20:23.740] It's because I'm kind of,
[20:23.740 -> 20:25.440] I'm trying to fight back, you know,
[20:25.440 -> 20:26.400] and I don't really know how.
[20:26.400 -> 20:31.680] I don't think any of us do. I think one of the things I've found helpful in this situation is
[20:31.680 -> 20:38.320] to be clear about who my audience is, my intended audience, right? So I find myself thinking a lot,
[20:40.000 -> 20:42.800] why do I care about the opinions of complete strangers?
[20:42.800 -> 20:45.360] Why do I care about the opinions of complete strangers?
[20:50.800 -> 20:57.120] Why am I trying to prove myself to people who are not necessarily knowledgeable about the work that I do? Are we not just hardwired to care? Probably. You could tell a very convincing
[20:57.120 -> 21:03.440] evolutionary story about how social exclusion was a threat to survival. I think we're wired to care,
[21:03.440 -> 21:10.920] but there's no reason why we have to care equally about everyone. There's no reason why you have to let that evolutionary
[21:10.920 -> 21:18.180] circuitry sort of hijack your rational thought. And so I think going in, I think every time
[21:18.180 -> 21:25.920] you're calling a game, the first thing I would want to know is, who are the people whose assessment of your skill
[21:25.920 -> 21:27.920] really matter to you?
[21:27.920 -> 21:30.120] And I would go to those people first, right?
[21:30.120 -> 21:33.740] Before you look at what the random audience has to say, knowing that they're always going
[21:33.740 -> 21:37.680] to be critics and they're always going to be angry fans or rivals, right?
[21:37.680 -> 21:41.140] I'd want to know, well, whose judgment do you really trust and value?
[21:41.140 -> 21:43.360] And can you seek their feedback first?
[21:43.360 -> 21:46.160] And once you do that, you're probably going to feel a little bit more secure.
[21:46.160 -> 21:48.360] You're going to know what kind of criticism is valid
[21:48.360 -> 21:50.920] and what is probably a little bit,
[21:50.920 -> 21:53.880] you know, a little bit less credible.
[21:53.880 -> 21:55.840] And then maybe you can filter a little bit better.
[21:55.840 -> 21:57.400] Have you ever tried that?
[21:57.400 -> 21:59.800] I had one experience where I was getting pelters
[21:59.800 -> 22:02.160] and then a colleague of mine who I really respect
[22:02.160 -> 22:03.880] sent me a message to say how great,
[22:03.880 -> 22:06.440] and Damien knows this story, saying, you know, you're fantastic at what you do.
[22:06.440 -> 22:08.240] And that was a great moment for me.
[22:08.240 -> 22:09.720] But, and I like to say, oh yeah,
[22:09.720 -> 22:11.520] then I really changed and thought, you know,
[22:11.520 -> 22:13.840] that they don't count, she counts.
[22:13.840 -> 22:17.520] No, that wasn't what happened, I'll be totally honest.
[22:17.520 -> 22:19.600] Because it feels like an overwhelming flood.
[22:19.600 -> 22:21.280] And I'm sure also, you know,
[22:21.280 -> 22:23.240] we could talk about an evolutionary story
[22:23.240 -> 22:26.720] of the fact that we are hardwired to see the negative and ignore the positive.
[22:26.720 -> 22:30.800] And that's definitely something that I know a lot of our listeners struggle with, you
[22:30.800 -> 22:31.800] know, at the start.
[22:31.800 -> 22:33.600] What would your listeners most like to hear?
[22:33.600 -> 22:38.080] Like, let's be totally frank, how to be happier, how to be more positive, how to feel better
[22:38.080 -> 22:39.280] when we wake up in the morning.
[22:39.280 -> 22:42.600] Isn't that probably what all of us are constantly looking for?
[22:42.600 -> 22:45.360] In some ways, although I think that a lot of people
[22:45.360 -> 22:47.440] are willing to accept more negativity
[22:47.440 -> 22:49.160] in order to get to higher performance.
[22:49.160 -> 22:50.760] And that's part of why they listen to this show
[22:50.760 -> 22:52.640] in the first place, right?
[22:52.640 -> 22:55.680] It's interesting to think about this basic problem of,
[22:55.680 -> 22:58.520] yeah, bad is stronger than good, empirically, right?
[22:58.520 -> 23:02.040] Negativity bias is well-documented over multiple decades.
[23:02.040 -> 23:04.240] And you're right, there's a good reason for that too.
[23:04.240 -> 23:08.160] If you ignored the compliment, nothing bad will happen to you.
[23:08.160 -> 23:12.120] If you didn't see the thread, you might not make it to tomorrow.
[23:12.120 -> 23:18.080] But we allow ourselves to, I think, react to social information, to feedback, to failure,
[23:18.080 -> 23:23.360] to rejection, as if it is a life-threatening event when it's not.
[23:23.360 -> 23:25.400] And I think I'm getting the sense
[23:25.400 -> 23:26.880] that you don't have a clear definition
[23:26.880 -> 23:30.240] of what high performance is when you call a football match.
[23:30.240 -> 23:33.560] Because if you did, you would immediately be able
[23:33.560 -> 23:36.680] to look at the fan comments or the social media complaints
[23:36.680 -> 23:38.880] and say, which of these are relevant
[23:38.880 -> 23:41.920] to whether I was successful today and which ones aren't.
[23:41.920 -> 23:43.840] And you would have done your own immediate review
[23:43.840 -> 23:45.920] of what you did well and what you did poorly.
[23:45.920 -> 23:48.400] And you might've had some things that you could see
[23:48.400 -> 23:50.680] more clearly and others that were a little bit more blurry,
[23:50.680 -> 23:52.840] but then you'd be able to take all of the comments
[23:52.840 -> 23:54.960] that you're getting and say, okay, some of these
[23:54.960 -> 23:56.720] are about things that are not relevant
[23:56.720 -> 23:58.280] to my definition of performance.
[23:58.280 -> 24:01.280] And so it doesn't matter what those people think.
[24:01.280 -> 24:03.840] So how do you define high performance
[24:03.840 -> 24:09.400] in that role as a commentator? I think the role for me is getting the most out of the pundits. You know, you have to understand
[24:09.400 -> 24:13.080] that when you're the presenter, you're not there to be the superstar. So it's telling the story,
[24:13.080 -> 24:19.120] and it is asking the question that the audience at home want to hear. And I actually, I think I
[24:19.120 -> 24:23.840] am good at that. But the problem is, it's not like I'm the footballer who knows whether I've scored
[24:23.840 -> 24:27.480] a goal and picked up three points, or missed a chance and lost the game.
[24:27.480 -> 24:29.000] Like there is no win or lose.
[24:29.040 -> 24:30.800] It's not, it's not tangible like that.
[24:30.960 -> 24:33.000] So that's where the challenge comes from for me, I think.
[24:33.360 -> 24:37.200] Yeah, so you're dependent on subjective feedback instead of objective results.
[24:37.400 -> 24:38.160] Exactly.
[24:38.160 -> 24:47.660] And also when you're live on the telly, it's a bit like when you do a podcast episode, you know, you don't really know, I don't think whether, you know, if it's gone okay or not, but you don't really know because you're so
[24:47.660 -> 24:50.880] in it, you think, well, I think that was all right, but I don't really know.
[24:50.880 -> 24:55.560] You're trying to filter so many layers of information when you're broadcasting live
[24:55.560 -> 25:00.160] that actually, whether it was any good or not, it's almost the 16th thing down the list,
[25:00.160 -> 25:01.160] you know?
[25:01.160 -> 25:02.160] Yes.
[25:02.160 -> 25:06.080] Although I think you just gave an interesting solution to that, right? Which is,
[25:06.080 -> 25:11.680] if your goal as the presenter is to bring out the best in the pundits, right? Their feedback is much
[25:11.680 -> 25:16.080] more valuable in some ways than the audience feedback, right? On whether you gave them a
[25:16.080 -> 25:20.640] chance to shine. Whether you, you know, you brought out a version of themselves that they
[25:20.640 -> 25:27.400] might not have been able to bring out if you weren't there. You know what, that is the perfect... and actually now when you say that I smile
[25:27.400 -> 25:29.960] because I'm always having conversations with the guys where they go, oh man I
[25:29.960 -> 25:33.080] love working with you, you know, you always make me feel good, you make me
[25:33.080 -> 25:38.520] relaxed and thanks for that. Well that, I mean, I'm not gonna say they're your only
[25:38.520 -> 25:47.120] audience, right, but in some ways they're your primary audience. Yeah, yeah, I see it. And if it goes well with them then on balance, right, it should lead to better feedback from viewers.
[25:47.120 -> 25:50.360] So Adam, then let's go back to that work in the shadows
[25:50.360 -> 25:53.480] for you, for when you described about being really clear
[25:53.480 -> 25:55.240] about what your audience want.
[25:55.240 -> 25:58.680] And I'm really intrigued about how you've won these awards
[25:58.680 -> 26:00.480] for being Wharton's best professor
[26:00.480 -> 26:02.000] for seven consecutive years,
[26:02.000 -> 26:04.320] because that's taking information
[26:04.320 -> 26:06.520] that in somebody else's hands might be quite dry or bland or anodyne. for seven consecutive years because that's taking information that
[26:04.440 -> 26:10.080] in somebody else's hands might be quite dry
[26:06.520 -> 26:12.720] or bland or anodyne and yet having read
[26:10.080 -> 26:15.240] your work and seen your stuff you do
[26:12.720 -> 26:17.000] make it dance, you do bring it to life and
[26:15.240 -> 26:19.800] you do do it in an incredibly
[26:17.000 -> 26:22.160] engaging way. So what I'm interested in
[26:19.800 -> 26:24.040] is the process that you go through to
[26:22.160 -> 26:26.000] get to that end goal. It's like tell us the
[26:24.040 -> 26:27.880] equivalent of that last chapter of the book where, you know, where you broke
[26:27.880 -> 26:31.600] down the processes you get through. Because there's lots of our listeners
[26:31.600 -> 26:36.320] that maybe are working in selling paperclips, there's teachers that are
[26:36.320 -> 26:39.720] going into classrooms where they're having to engage children, there's
[26:39.720 -> 26:43.440] parents trying to get kids to do something that they might not want to do
[26:43.440 -> 26:49.120] and I think your lessons from that, in in the shadows have got an awful lot to teach us all.
[26:49.120 -> 26:54.720] Well, I think it starts for me with, I had the great fortune to have some extraordinary teachers
[26:54.720 -> 26:59.440] who changed the way I saw the world. And I really wanted to pay that forward. What that experience
[26:59.440 -> 27:04.000] early on taught me was that good teachers are passionate about the material they teach,
[27:04.640 -> 27:09.440] but great teachers are passionate about the students they teach. I think that the
[27:09.440 -> 27:13.360] time that I spent early on working to get to know my students really shaped
[27:13.360 -> 27:17.360] who I became as a teacher. For me, a lot of that really came from the anxiety I
[27:17.360 -> 27:21.280] had in the classroom. I thought, well, I'm really intimidated by these brilliant
[27:21.280 -> 27:27.020] students and I want to make sure that, you know, that I have something of value to contribute to them.
[27:27.020 -> 27:28.620] So I'm going to do everything in my power
[27:28.620 -> 27:29.460] to get to know them.
[27:29.460 -> 27:31.580] So I ended up coming into the first day of class,
[27:31.580 -> 27:34.140] having memorized every student's name.
[27:34.140 -> 27:35.820] And I asked them to put their name cards down
[27:35.820 -> 27:38.620] and I went around the room and named them all.
[27:38.620 -> 27:41.260] And they were stunned.
[27:41.260 -> 27:43.300] And of course, then I beat myself up afterward
[27:43.300 -> 27:47.880] because I missed a couple names and I made a mistake and I confused two students who looked alike.
[27:48.440 -> 27:52.340] Um, but what they were reacting to is that I had put the time in to try to
[27:52.340 -> 27:56.100] get to know them before I showed up at class. And that was a clear signal that
[27:56.100 -> 28:00.880] I cared. And it's amazing how few people do that work, right? It's not, it's
[28:00.880 -> 28:04.340] not hard. It's brute force. And you can, you can apply memory tricks, right?
[28:04.340 -> 28:05.700] You can do spaced repetition.
[28:05.700 -> 28:06.660] You can quiz yourself.
[28:06.920 -> 28:08.460] You can build a memory palace, right?
[28:08.460 -> 28:12.320] There are lots of techniques that, that amplify your ability to, to retain
[28:12.320 -> 28:16.260] that information and recall it in the moment, and I definitely apply those.
[28:16.820 -> 28:20.420] But it was just saying, I'm going to commit a few hours to looking at their
[28:20.420 -> 28:24.420] photos, right, and committing their names to memory, and that will start off
[28:24.420 -> 28:25.260] the class
[28:25.260 -> 28:26.960] with the element of surprise.
[28:26.960 -> 28:28.640] It's a way to make a great first impression.
[28:28.640 -> 28:31.980] And I think the reason that that was impressed upon me
[28:31.980 -> 28:36.780] was when I think I was 25, I just finished my doctorate.
[28:36.780 -> 28:40.100] I was asked to teach a group of colonels and generals
[28:40.100 -> 28:41.380] in the US Air Force.
[28:41.380 -> 28:42.860] And I walked into this room
[28:42.860 -> 28:44.780] and it was like a scene out of Top Gun.
[28:45.520 -> 28:49.680] These guys had flown thousands of hours. they had multi-billion dollar budgets,
[28:49.680 -> 28:56.160] and they were literally heroes. And I thought my job was to convince them that I was an expert,
[28:56.160 -> 29:00.560] and I had a lot to teach them. I started talking about my credentials and I was trying to impress
[29:00.560 -> 29:08.600] them. And the feedback was even tougher than what I got from my early students. I remember one of the people in the audience had written,
[29:08.600 -> 29:11.080] there's more knowledge in the audience than on the podium.
[29:11.080 -> 29:12.640] Yeah, that's true.
[29:12.640 -> 29:15.400] You all are twice my age and you're really accomplished.
[29:15.400 -> 29:16.960] But then another one wrote,
[29:16.960 -> 29:19.200] I gained nothing from this session,
[29:19.200 -> 29:22.800] but I trust that the instructor gained useful insight.
[29:22.800 -> 29:24.520] It's like a dagger to the heart.
[29:24.520 -> 29:26.800] And I want to quit at that point.
[29:26.800 -> 29:28.080] I'm like, I'm gonna crawl into a hole.
[29:28.080 -> 29:31.600] I'm never gonna teach a group of senior leaders again.
[29:31.600 -> 29:34.420] But I had already committed to do a second session.
[29:34.420 -> 29:37.400] And I take my integrity really seriously.
[29:37.400 -> 29:40.520] If I tell you I'm going to do something, I follow through.
[29:40.520 -> 29:44.240] So not showing up or backing out is non-negotiable.
[29:44.240 -> 29:46.160] And I don't have any time to reinvent my material.
[29:46.160 -> 29:48.560] I have to show up a couple of days later.
[29:48.560 -> 29:51.600] So all I can do is change the way I present myself.
[29:51.600 -> 29:54.320] And I show up, I look around the room,
[29:54.320 -> 29:55.760] it's the same kind of room.
[29:55.760 -> 29:58.120] They've got their nicknames, they have call signs,
[29:58.120 -> 30:00.920] they're Striker, Sand Dune, Gunner.
[30:02.040 -> 30:04.360] And I'm staring at these tough guys.
[30:04.360 -> 30:05.000] And I say,
[30:05.460 -> 30:07.360] I know what you're thinking right now.
[30:08.380 -> 30:11.060] What could I possibly learn from a professor
[30:11.060 -> 30:12.240] who's 12 years old?
[30:13.140 -> 30:16.640] And nobody reacts, stunned silence.
[30:16.640 -> 30:18.580] And I'm sitting there for what feels like an eternity.
[30:18.580 -> 30:20.580] And finally, one of the guys pipes up and says,
[30:20.580 -> 30:22.980] oh, that's ridiculous, you gotta be at least 13.
[30:22.980 -> 30:27.040] And the whole room started cracking up.
[30:27.040 -> 30:29.680] And I more or less taught the same content,
[30:29.680 -> 30:32.120] but it changed the relationship I had with the audience.
[30:32.120 -> 30:34.240] And afterward, the feedback forms were night and day
[30:34.240 -> 30:34.740] different.
[30:34.740 -> 30:37.080] They said things like, although junior in experience,
[30:37.080 -> 30:39.320] he dealt with the data in an interesting way.
[30:39.320 -> 30:41.920] And it was great to learn about motivating
[30:41.920 -> 30:43.840] millennials from a professor who's
[30:43.840 -> 30:45.200] almost young enough to be one.
[30:45.200 -> 30:48.040] And that was a really different approach
[30:48.040 -> 30:50.680] than memorizing my own students' backgrounds.
[30:50.680 -> 30:52.320] But it was the same thing in essence,
[30:52.320 -> 30:55.340] which is to say, I am here to build a connection.
[30:55.340 -> 30:58.520] And what I wanna show you is that I'm aware
[30:58.520 -> 31:01.240] of what's going on in your head, right?
[31:01.240 -> 31:03.960] I know, I know your question,
[31:03.960 -> 31:06.240] whether I am qualified to teach you. And the
[31:06.240 -> 31:14.120] fact that I have the self-awareness to realize that, and the humility to say it out loud,
[31:14.120 -> 31:20.480] hopefully shows to them that maybe, maybe we can have an interesting conversation over
[31:20.480 -> 31:24.700] the next few hours and we can learn things from each other. And I think that stance to
[31:24.700 -> 31:27.380] me is the beginning of trying to achieve excellence in
[31:27.380 -> 31:31.100] anything you do. So how do you do that then on a wider scale? You know, like when
[31:31.100 -> 31:35.360] you do your books, for example, and you have to, where you don't have that
[31:35.360 -> 31:40.480] in-the-room connection, but you've got an audience of like just a homogenous
[31:40.480 -> 31:45.720] mass of people that you're trying to bring the idea of rethinking to a mass audience.
[31:45.760 -> 31:47.760] How do you go about that connection then?
[31:47.880 -> 31:51.960] You know early on I tried to do it by sort of writing what I knew and
[31:52.760 -> 31:58.800] I wrote a first draft of my first book give-and-take. I sent it to my brand new literary agent and
[31:59.840 -> 32:02.080] he said if to be totally honest with you
[32:02.080 -> 32:05.880] I don't even think your academic colleagues are gonna wanna read this book.
[32:05.880 -> 32:06.800] Start over.
[32:06.800 -> 32:09.120] And I threw out 102,000 words
[32:09.120 -> 32:10.820] and started over from scratch.
[32:10.820 -> 32:12.400] And he gave me a piece of advice
[32:12.400 -> 32:15.280] that I think about almost every day when I write.
[32:15.280 -> 32:18.220] He said, write like you teach,
[32:18.220 -> 32:20.100] not like you write a research paper.
[32:20.100 -> 32:23.200] And what that gave me was a litmus test
[32:23.200 -> 32:26.720] to say, would I open a class with this experiment?
[32:26.720 -> 32:29.000] Is it interesting enough that it would have my students
[32:29.000 -> 32:30.760] at the edge of their seats?
[32:30.760 -> 32:33.320] And that helped me weed out a lot of information
[32:33.320 -> 32:35.080] that didn't need to go in a book.
[32:35.080 -> 32:38.720] But it also reminded me that when I teach a class,
[32:38.720 -> 32:41.360] the element of surprise is incredibly important.
[32:41.360 -> 32:46.520] If I were to tell you that you are much more effective if
[32:46.520 -> 32:51.560] you could bring your team with you that you've worked with before, you'd say duh
[32:51.560 -> 32:58.480] of course I already know that. If I instead say to you it turns out that in
[32:58.480 -> 33:04.000] this incredible study that Huckman and Pisano did where they studied cardiac
[33:04.000 -> 33:05.160] surgeons and they
[33:05.160 -> 33:09.180] wanted to know how many cardiac surgeries do you have to do with
[33:09.180 -> 33:14.160] minimally invasive technology before your patient mortality rate drops? How
[33:14.160 -> 33:17.920] many reps do you have to do before you climb up the learning curve? What do you
[33:17.920 -> 33:21.360] think that number is? All of a sudden they're curious, like, well I don't know
[33:21.360 -> 33:25.160] the answer to that. And people throw out guesses and some people say,
[33:25.160 -> 33:26.240] well, you've got to do 10 of them
[33:26.240 -> 33:27.920] before you start to develop some expertise.
[33:27.920 -> 33:28.960] Other people say 100.
[33:28.960 -> 33:30.280] And then somebody will say, I don't know,
[33:30.280 -> 33:32.200] however many it takes 10,000 hours.
[33:33.120 -> 33:35.380] And I get to say, you're all wrong,
[33:35.380 -> 33:38.520] because in their data, the answer is infinity.
[33:38.520 -> 33:40.760] Reps never make you better.
[33:40.760 -> 33:42.120] How could that be?
[33:42.120 -> 33:42.960] That's so weird.
[33:42.960 -> 33:45.160] Patients are every bit as likely to die
[33:45.160 -> 33:48.360] on surgery number 100 as they were on surgery number one.
[33:48.360 -> 33:49.640] That does not make sense.
[33:49.640 -> 33:51.360] It flies in the face of everything we know
[33:51.360 -> 33:53.160] about high performance.
[33:53.160 -> 33:53.980] Well, guess what?
[33:53.980 -> 33:55.840] Hakim and Pisano realized in their study
[33:55.840 -> 33:58.640] that they had surgeons operating at different hospitals.
[33:58.640 -> 34:01.560] And when they broke down their data by different hospitals,
[34:01.560 -> 34:04.040] they found that every surgery you did at hospital A
[34:04.040 -> 34:08.280] reduced your patient mortality rate by about 1%. But tomorrow when you go to
[34:08.280 -> 34:12.620] Hospital B, it's like you're starting over. You're a complete novice and you
[34:12.620 -> 34:16.400] don't benefit from the practice you had at Hospital A. And what's going on there
[34:16.400 -> 34:21.200] of course is the team around you really matters. The shared experience with
[34:21.200 -> 34:25.600] anesthesiologists and nurses and medical tech, staff ends up really
[34:25.600 -> 34:27.360] having a huge impact on your ability
[34:27.360 -> 34:29.320] to perform a successful surgery.
[34:29.320 -> 34:32.240] And when I tell you the story that way, all of a sudden,
[34:32.240 -> 34:35.040] wow, I never realized how critical it was,
[34:35.040 -> 34:37.880] even in work that's supposed to depend on individual geniuses
[34:37.880 -> 34:40.920] using their minds and their hands to save lives,
[34:40.920 -> 34:43.220] how much the interdependent system of collaboration
[34:43.220 -> 34:44.520] around them matters.
[34:44.520 -> 34:48.820] And that, to me, you know, of building a relationship with an
[34:48.820 -> 34:52.720] audience is to ask you a question that you really don't know the answer to and
[34:52.720 -> 34:56.960] set up that surprise. So is that known as the gap theory then Adam? Is it, because
[34:56.960 -> 34:59.760] that sounds to me, I love that idea because any one of us could do that
[34:59.760 -> 35:04.180] can't we? Once we've built that connection is to create that gap, the gap
[35:04.180 -> 35:05.120] theory in our knowledge,
[35:05.120 -> 35:07.640] and then your job is to help them answer it.
[35:07.640 -> 35:09.400] Is that an accurate read?
[35:09.400 -> 35:10.360] I think that's part of it.
[35:10.360 -> 35:14.680] So yes, the George Loewenstein theory of curiosity
[35:14.680 -> 35:16.640] that says, basically, you create a gap
[35:16.640 -> 35:18.840] between what people know and what they want to know,
[35:18.840 -> 35:21.600] and then it becomes like an itch that they have to scratch.
[35:21.600 -> 35:23.000] That's the first phase.
[35:23.000 -> 35:25.480] But then it's not enough just to have a gap,
[35:25.480 -> 35:28.720] because if I introduce you to a really boring, obvious answer,
[35:28.720 -> 35:29.940] you're not going to care, right?
[35:29.940 -> 35:30.900] Or you're going to be disappointed
[35:30.900 -> 35:32.360] because there was this big setup,
[35:32.360 -> 35:34.280] and then the reveal is a total dud.
[35:34.280 -> 35:36.040] You know, it would be like if now somebody
[35:36.040 -> 35:38.160] tried to make The Wizard of Oz, and you find out
[35:38.160 -> 35:40.280] at the very end it's just a dream.
[35:40.280 -> 35:41.880] Wait, we've seen that before.
[35:41.880 -> 35:45.820] Nope, you can't create this high stakes situation
[35:45.820 -> 35:47.200] and then tell me none of it was real
[35:47.200 -> 35:48.120] and it didn't even matter.
[35:48.120 -> 35:49.960] So I think the answer has to be something
[35:49.960 -> 35:52.240] that is either novel or practical.
[35:52.240 -> 35:54.880] And in this case, I think the fact that you depend
[35:54.880 -> 35:57.160] much more on your collaborators than you realize
[35:57.160 -> 35:59.400] is extremely practical, right?
[35:59.400 -> 36:01.880] We have all kinds of people during this great resignation
[36:01.880 -> 36:03.560] that we're going through who have quit their jobs
[36:03.560 -> 36:07.440] and said, I wanna go work somewhere else. And what they didn't think about was,
[36:07.440 -> 36:13.280] well, maybe I should take my team with me. Maybe, maybe I should negotiate that the person who
[36:13.280 -> 36:17.360] brings out the best in me is actually going to become part of a dynamic duo and we're going to
[36:17.360 -> 36:23.200] leave together. And that's, I think that's, you know, just, it's a novel answer, not just a novel
[36:23.200 -> 36:23.600] question.
[36:27.000 -> 36:30.880] that's just it's a novel answer, not just a novel question. On our podcast, we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a better way so you
[36:30.880 -> 36:36.160] can live a better life. And that's why when I found Mint Mobile, I had to share. So Mint
[36:36.160 -> 36:40.840] Mobile ditched retail stores and all those overhead costs and instead sells their phone
[36:40.840 -> 36:47.000] plans online and passes those savings to you. And for a limited time, they're passing on even more savings,
[36:47.000 -> 36:50.000] with a new customer offer that cuts all Mint Mobile plans
[36:50.000 -> 36:54.000] to $15 a month when you purchase a 3-month plan.
[36:54.000 -> 37:00.000] That's unlimited talk, text and data for $15 a month.
[37:00.000 -> 37:04.000] And by the way, the quality of Mint Mobile's wireless service
[37:04.000 -> 37:05.440] in comparison to providers
[37:05.440 -> 37:11.180] that we've worked with before is incredible. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium
[37:11.180 -> 37:16.360] wireless plans for 15 bucks a month. So say goodbye to your overpriced wireless plans,
[37:16.360 -> 37:21.020] those jaw-dropping monthly bills, those unexpected overages, because all the plans come with
[37:21.020 -> 37:29.320] unlimited talk and text and high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan
[37:29.320 -> 37:33.380] bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. So ditch
[37:33.380 -> 37:37.440] overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's limited time deal and get premium
[37:37.440 -> 37:42.080] wireless service for just 15 bucks a month. To get this new customer offer and
[37:42.080 -> 37:45.360] your new three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15
[37:45.360 -> 37:52.880] bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com.hpp.
[37:52.880 -> 37:58.600] Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com.hpp.
[37:58.600 -> 38:01.040] Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply.
[38:01.040 -> 38:06.560] See Mint Mobile for details.
[38:06.560 -> 38:12.200] I think it's really good for people. I think it makes me want to know, how do you determine
[38:12.200 -> 38:18.260] who gets to be part of your crew and your gang? How do you recruit?
[38:18.260 -> 38:24.320] So my most valuable coaches and critics are people that I've come to call disagreeable
[38:24.320 -> 38:25.000] givers.
[38:25.000 -> 38:29.000] The first question is, if you think about the personality trait of agreeableness, disagreeableness,
[38:29.000 -> 38:35.000] are people more on the agreeable side where they're warm, friendly, polite, Canadian?
[38:35.000 -> 38:39.000] Or on the disagreeable side, are they more critical, skeptical,
[38:39.000 -> 38:43.000] overrepresented among engineers and lawyers, and maybe a little more British than I am?
[38:43.000 -> 38:48.720] That, I think, is important because we know that agreeable people often hesitate to dish out tough
[38:48.720 -> 38:53.280] love. They're often afraid to hurt other people's feelings. They don't want to rock the boat.
[38:53.280 -> 38:59.120] They're trying to be supportive and maintain harmony. And so I found that people who are
[38:59.120 -> 39:03.680] disagreeable are much less likely to bite their tongues and more likely to tell me the truth.
[39:04.240 -> 39:06.260] But their motives really matter too.
[39:06.260 -> 39:07.580] So when I've studied the differences
[39:07.580 -> 39:09.120] between givers and takers,
[39:09.120 -> 39:11.700] a disagreeable taker is gonna maybe criticize me
[39:11.700 -> 39:15.500] for personal gain or to try to feel smart.
[39:15.500 -> 39:18.900] A disagreeable giver is going to ask,
[39:18.900 -> 39:21.420] can I criticize in a way that actually makes you better?
[39:21.420 -> 39:24.520] And they're challenging you because they care about you
[39:24.520 -> 39:25.420] and they wanna help. And so what I've because they care about you and they want to help.
[39:25.420 -> 39:28.040] And so what I've tried to do is I've tried to look at
[39:28.040 -> 39:30.640] who are the people who gave me the criticism
[39:30.640 -> 39:32.420] that I didn't want to hear in the moment,
[39:32.420 -> 39:34.560] but I needed to hear in the long run.
[39:34.560 -> 39:36.520] And those are the people who,
[39:36.520 -> 39:41.020] even though they might not always be shielding my ego,
[39:41.020 -> 39:43.360] they actually are investing in my growth
[39:43.360 -> 39:44.840] and my performance over time.
[39:44.840 -> 39:48.560] So what's the best way to do that, to be a disagreeable giver?
[39:48.560 -> 39:52.680] Well I think as an agreeable person who's worked hard to get better at this, I think
[39:52.680 -> 39:57.760] the most important thing is to recognize that the effect of what you say always depends
[39:57.760 -> 39:59.560] on how you say it.
[39:59.560 -> 40:04.440] So one of my favorite experiments showed that you could say about 19 words to dramatically
[40:04.440 -> 40:09.120] increase people's openness to criticism. And those 19 words are roughly, I'm giving you these comments
[40:09.120 -> 40:13.120] because I have very high expectations and I'm confident that you're going to reach them.
[40:13.120 -> 40:18.320] Completely changes the relationship, right? I'm not judging you. I'm not attacking you.
[40:18.320 -> 40:23.520] I'm here to coach you. And I actually taught that in class right after that research came out.
[40:23.520 -> 40:27.020] And then I gave out my mid-course feedback forms, and three different students had written
[40:27.020 -> 40:30.260] at the top, I'm giving you these comments because I have very high expectations and
[40:30.260 -> 40:31.260] I'm confident.
[40:31.260 -> 40:33.540] I'm like, no, no, you don't have to use the words.
[40:33.540 -> 40:37.500] It's the signal that you believe in my potential and you care about my success.
[40:37.500 -> 40:38.500] Right?
[40:38.500 -> 40:41.540] And I think that's the most important thing to do before you challenge somebody or criticize
[40:41.540 -> 40:42.840] them.
[40:42.840 -> 40:47.200] And then the other thing I think that's pretty important
[40:47.200 -> 40:50.200] is I've started asking people to assess their own performance
[40:50.200 -> 40:51.800] before I give them feedback.
[40:51.800 -> 40:54.680] So I would say, hey, I was observing
[40:54.680 -> 40:57.840] to see if I could identify anything that might help you.
[40:57.840 -> 40:59.360] I'm happy to give you a couple of tips,
[40:59.360 -> 41:01.880] but I would actually love to learn from your analysis
[41:01.880 -> 41:04.560] of your own performance and try to calibrate what I'm seeing
[41:04.560 -> 41:06.600] against what you've noticed.
[41:06.600 -> 41:08.080] What did you think went well
[41:08.080 -> 41:10.080] and what were your notes for yourself?
[41:10.080 -> 41:12.000] And then I know that some of my points
[41:12.000 -> 41:12.920] are not gonna surprise you
[41:12.920 -> 41:14.640] because you already anticipated them,
[41:14.640 -> 41:16.960] but I also have a sense of what your blind spots might be.
[41:16.960 -> 41:18.400] And I can say, oh, you know,
[41:18.400 -> 41:20.440] I was intrigued that you didn't mention this
[41:20.440 -> 41:22.000] and I'd love to hear your thought on that.
[41:22.000 -> 41:23.640] So can you give us an example of that, Adam,
[41:23.640 -> 41:26.960] of where you've used that 19-word technique
[41:26.960 -> 41:29.280] and then that second technique
[41:29.280 -> 41:33.760] that's had quite a profound impact on the recipient?
[41:33.760 -> 41:35.960] Yeah, I've got a lot of examples.
[41:35.960 -> 41:39.640] Let me give you one that was a tricky situation for me.
[41:39.640 -> 41:44.640] So during COVID, I got a call from the founder
[41:44.920 -> 41:48.800] of a wildly successful startup saying, I'm
[41:48.800 -> 41:51.440] having trouble with culture.
[41:51.440 -> 41:57.040] And I'm being told that we have a culture of takers rather than givers, basically.
[41:57.040 -> 42:01.120] And I know this is something you study a lot, trying to figure out how to get to the bottom
[42:01.120 -> 42:02.120] of this.
[42:02.120 -> 42:07.780] So, I end up going to a session with the senior leadership team.
[42:07.780 -> 42:13.700] And I see this person basically check off all the boxes of what I would advise a leader
[42:13.700 -> 42:14.700] not to do.
[42:14.700 -> 42:19.920] Dominating the conversation, interrupting other people, dismissing their ideas in a
[42:19.920 -> 42:22.460] way that almost comes across as demeaning.
[42:22.460 -> 42:25.520] And so after the session, my job is to try to give some
[42:25.520 -> 42:31.440] feedback as the outsider. And I start the conversation and I just ask a simple question,
[42:31.440 -> 42:36.240] which is, how do you think that went? And he says, well, I think it went pretty well. I think
[42:36.240 -> 42:42.880] we made the following decisions and I was really happy with the buy-in I got for this particular
[42:42.880 -> 42:47.760] direction. Okay, there's a gap of self-awareness here.
[42:47.760 -> 42:50.560] And I said, all right, well, let me just reinforce
[42:50.560 -> 42:52.740] what my role is, which is you brought me in
[42:52.740 -> 42:54.320] to hold up a mirror for you.
[42:54.320 -> 42:58.680] And I don't have answers for you, I don't have solutions,
[42:58.680 -> 43:00.700] but I think I can maybe help you
[43:00.700 -> 43:02.680] see your own behavior more clearly.
[43:02.680 -> 43:05.620] And in the spirit of doing that,
[43:05.620 -> 43:08.700] I was more interested in how other people thought that went.
[43:08.700 -> 43:10.920] How do you think they thought it went?
[43:10.920 -> 43:11.760] And he was like, I don't know,
[43:11.760 -> 43:13.020] I didn't really think about that.
[43:13.020 -> 43:14.160] Well, why is that?
[43:15.140 -> 43:17.240] Because to me, your first job as a leader
[43:17.240 -> 43:19.340] is to try to elevate the people around you.
[43:19.340 -> 43:21.980] Your success depends on making them successful, right?
[43:21.980 -> 43:23.400] That's why you're in charge of other people
[43:23.400 -> 43:27.160] as opposed to just being an independent solo operator.
[43:27.160 -> 43:31.280] And I remember him coming back and saying,
[43:31.280 -> 43:34.320] I really have to think about that because I have goals.
[43:34.320 -> 43:37.160] And so my success was, did I meet the goals or not?
[43:37.160 -> 43:39.240] And he ended up going and getting the feedback
[43:39.240 -> 43:42.420] from his team and some of them sugarcoated it.
[43:42.420 -> 43:44.520] But there were one or two, there were two, I think,
[43:44.520 -> 43:47.160] actually, who said, you know, honestly,
[43:47.160 -> 43:49.300] like, this was not an effective meeting
[43:49.300 -> 43:51.440] and we had a bunch of ideas that got squashed.
[43:51.440 -> 43:53.460] And even if you think those were bad ideas,
[43:53.460 -> 43:56.240] you are building a culture where ideas can't be heard.
[43:56.240 -> 43:58.320] And that means you're gonna miss the good ones too.
[43:58.320 -> 43:59.920] And you're gonna pretty soon be surrounded
[43:59.920 -> 44:01.760] by a bunch of yes men and women who,
[44:01.760 -> 44:03.080] when you come to work in the morning
[44:03.080 -> 44:08.940] and you say good morning, are all gonna say, great point. And is that who you want to be? No. And I
[44:08.940 -> 44:12.460] didn't have to do a whole lot in that situation, right? It was just kind of prompting him to
[44:12.460 -> 44:15.660] say, well, have I really gotten feedback from other people?
[44:15.660 -> 44:18.560] Steve McQueen But sometimes I can imagine that that puts
[44:18.560 -> 44:24.000] you in quite an uncomfortable position, being the guy that's holding the mirror, you know?
[44:24.000 -> 44:26.800] So I'm interested of how do you make a determination of whether you're actually going to invest uncomfortable position, being the guy that's holding the mirror, you know. So
[44:24.080 -> 44:29.360] I'm interested of how do you make a
[44:26.800 -> 44:31.400] determination of whether you're actually
[44:29.360 -> 44:33.840] going to invest in that relationship
[44:31.400 -> 44:36.880] because you feel you can help them
[44:33.840 -> 44:39.080] improve, or what are the sort of triggers
[44:36.880 -> 44:41.520] that you would identify to say, I need
[44:39.080 -> 44:43.160] to just walk away from here?
[44:41.520 -> 44:45.120] I usually start by saying,
[44:43.160 -> 44:49.920] I'm a terrible consultant. You don't want to hire me to give you ongoing advice.
[44:49.920 -> 44:52.080] There are, I think, two ways that I can be helpful.
[44:52.080 -> 44:57.300] One of which is I can try to give people a common language to talk about the challenges
[44:57.300 -> 45:01.300] they're running into and the goals they're trying to achieve that they're missing, right?
[45:01.300 -> 45:06.320] Which is, I think, what often becomes a catalyst for change is for
[45:06.320 -> 45:11.680] people to be able to describe, it's something like saying, okay, you have a star culture,
[45:11.680 -> 45:16.880] which you think is a perfect meritocracy. But in fact, you have some people who are rising
[45:18.720 -> 45:22.400] for reasons that are unrelated to their performance. And you have some people who
[45:22.400 -> 45:29.120] are failing to get opportunities despite their excellent performance. And so, how are you going to find the holes in that system
[45:29.120 -> 45:35.400] and then try to make it more meritocratic? And all of a sudden saying, oh, well, we're
[45:35.400 -> 45:40.640] over rewarding our superstars who have great individual results. And we're under appreciating
[45:40.640 -> 45:47.280] the culture carriers, the givers behind the scenes who are making other people better, that's a catalyst, right?
[45:47.280 -> 45:48.280] You don't need me anymore.
[45:48.280 -> 45:52.700] I've walked you through the data behind that, but you can now figure out how to change that
[45:52.700 -> 45:54.540] in your own environment.
[45:54.540 -> 45:59.920] And then the other approach is to say, where I think I can add value is if you actually
[45:59.920 -> 46:04.120] want to systematically study the problem you're interested in or the goal you're trying to
[46:04.120 -> 46:07.080] achieve. So if I can come in and do an experiment,
[46:07.080 -> 46:08.720] if I can gather longitudinal data,
[46:08.720 -> 46:10.360] then at the end of this project, we're
[46:10.360 -> 46:12.920] going to be able to teach other people what you learned.
[46:12.920 -> 46:14.560] And that's a signal to me that you're
[46:14.560 -> 46:16.640] committed to learning for the long haul,
[46:16.640 -> 46:19.560] not just looking for a quick fix or trying
[46:19.560 -> 46:21.960] to have somebody else fight your fires for you.
[46:21.960 -> 46:23.580] And that's a pretty good filter for me.
[46:23.580 -> 46:28.640] If you want to go beyond just I'll give a talk or I'll have a conversation with you, you better be committed
[46:28.640 -> 46:32.880] to not only running an experiment, but wanting to gather data about the results.
[46:32.880 -> 46:36.000] Your thoughts and comments are so helpful, Adam. I mean, particularly for Brits like
[46:36.000 -> 46:40.200] us, because we've all been brought up in a society where if you're disagreeable, that's
[46:40.200 -> 46:43.360] a negative. And if you're agreeable, that's a positive. So we all walk around agreeing
[46:43.360 -> 46:45.120] with each other when there's a voice in our head saying,
[46:45.120 -> 46:46.640] I'm not really sure that I agree,
[46:46.640 -> 46:48.760] but I better say I do because otherwise
[46:48.760 -> 46:51.800] it's seen as negative, which is unhealthy.
[46:51.800 -> 46:54.000] You know, Jake, it's funny that you say that
[46:54.000 -> 46:56.760] because I lived in the UK for a while
[46:56.760 -> 47:00.040] and I came home feeling like,
[47:00.040 -> 47:01.520] I was always as an agreeable person
[47:01.520 -> 47:03.640] concerned about politeness.
[47:03.640 -> 47:09.380] And the degree of politeness that was normative in British culture, at least when I was always, as an agreeable person, concerned about politeness. And the degree of politeness that was normative in British culture, at least when I was there,
[47:09.380 -> 47:10.840] made me uncomfortable.
[47:10.840 -> 47:16.980] I kept having conversations where people would just kind of nod and validate my ideas.
[47:16.980 -> 47:22.440] And I started to feel like if two people never disagree, it means at least one of them is
[47:22.440 -> 47:25.360] not thinking critically or speaking candidly.
[47:25.360 -> 47:28.240] And that is a disservice to a relationship.
[47:28.240 -> 47:31.640] If you can't tell me the truth, then you're actually hindering my ability
[47:31.640 -> 47:32.760] to learn from you.
[47:32.760 -> 47:34.260] I didn't know it was going to happen.
[47:34.260 -> 47:38.440] But one of the effects of going across the pond and then coming back
[47:38.440 -> 47:42.960] was to say, I think the fundamental challenge of being an agreeable person
[47:42.960 -> 47:45.080] or living in an agreeable culture,
[47:45.080 -> 47:47.920] or even just having an agreeable team,
[47:47.920 -> 47:51.360] is people feel a conflict between honesty and loyalty.
[47:51.360 -> 47:53.520] And what I tell every person I work with is,
[47:53.520 -> 47:54.880] I see no conflict.
[47:54.880 -> 47:59.140] To me, the highest expression of loyalty is honesty.
[47:59.140 -> 48:00.680] The more candid you are with me,
[48:00.680 -> 48:02.840] the more I will know that you care about me.
[48:02.840 -> 48:04.680] So if you ever hesitate because you're afraid
[48:04.680 -> 48:05.900] of hurting my feelings or
[48:05.900 -> 48:07.700] hurting our relationship, don't.
[48:07.920 -> 48:11.140] The only way you can hurt me is by not telling me the truth.
[48:11.740 -> 48:16.480] And that just, it just erodes the politeness norms in an interaction
[48:16.680 -> 48:20.900] because all of a sudden people realize, well, yeah, being polite is
[48:20.900 -> 48:27.040] protecting your feelings in the moment, but being kind is actually helping you get better in the future.
[48:29.440 -> 48:35.040] To try and bring this into our own lives, is this about communication? Because I'm thinking of
[48:35.040 -> 48:41.280] people I know who have fired colleagues because I'm, why have they left? Oh, we kept on, we
[48:41.280 -> 48:48.320] couldn't agree. Or even I have friends who've divorced, why have you divorced? We just got to a point where we disagreed on
[48:48.320 -> 48:53.080] everything, like it's a negative. So even if it's opened our eyes to the fact that
[48:53.080 -> 48:59.640] actually disagreeing doesn't mean that you can't, you know, relate or coexist, how
[48:59.640 -> 49:02.760] do we get the other person to understand that when I disagree with you, I'm not
[49:02.760 -> 49:06.620] coming at you, I'm not being aggressive, I don't want to fight here.
[49:06.620 -> 49:09.740] This is a disagreement based purely on respect
[49:09.740 -> 49:10.700] for you and me.
[49:10.700 -> 49:12.300] I think the framing is important.
[49:12.300 -> 49:14.860] So, I mean, as a psychologist,
[49:14.860 -> 49:17.540] my first inclination is always to bring the evidence
[49:17.540 -> 49:20.020] to the table and say, look, research shows
[49:20.020 -> 49:21.940] that the quality of a relationship,
[49:21.940 -> 49:24.600] and also actually whether your kids end up well adjusted,
[49:24.600 -> 49:27.760] if you have kids, is not about how often you fight,
[49:27.760 -> 49:29.780] it's about how constructively you fight.
[49:29.780 -> 49:31.260] You know, kids who are raised in homes
[49:31.260 -> 49:33.480] where parents never argue,
[49:33.480 -> 49:35.560] never learn to work out their differences,
[49:35.560 -> 49:37.480] and that turns out to be unhealthy for them.
[49:37.480 -> 49:39.480] Kids who are raised in families
[49:39.480 -> 49:42.720] where parents disagree respectfully,
[49:42.720 -> 49:44.160] they learn to speak up,
[49:44.160 -> 49:46.480] they learn to listen to people who have a different point of view.
[49:46.840 -> 49:50.400] And that's ultimately good for their resilience as well as their, their
[49:50.400 -> 49:52.120] ability to have thoughtful disagreements.
[49:52.840 -> 49:56.440] So I like to talk about that right up front and set that as a context
[49:56.440 -> 50:00.720] when I'm, I'm interacting with somebody for, for people who wouldn't do that.
[50:00.780 -> 50:07.840] I think the simpler way to do this might be to say, I have a style of working out my thoughts,
[50:07.840 -> 50:09.800] which is to debate.
[50:09.800 -> 50:11.720] And sometimes that makes me seem
[50:11.720 -> 50:13.720] like a prosecuting attorney, right?
[50:13.720 -> 50:15.200] Which is, you know, I'm just,
[50:15.200 -> 50:17.280] I'm trying to shoot down everything you say
[50:17.280 -> 50:19.000] and I'm always trying to prove you wrong,
[50:19.000 -> 50:21.560] but that's actually how I pressure test my own arguments.
[50:21.560 -> 50:24.000] That's how I sharpen my own thinking.
[50:24.000 -> 50:25.000] And if I take the time to disagree with you, it means that your opinion matters to me, right? But that's actually how I pressure test my own arguments. That's how I sharpen my own thinking.
[50:25.000 -> 50:27.400] And if I take the time to disagree with you,
[50:27.400 -> 50:30.000] it means that your opinion matters to me, right?
[50:30.000 -> 50:31.240] If I didn't care about your opinion,
[50:31.240 -> 50:32.720] I wouldn't bother to argue with it.
[50:32.720 -> 50:33.800] I'd say, screw you.
[50:33.800 -> 50:36.120] Like, why am I bothering to talk to you?
[50:36.120 -> 50:39.240] And so my engaging in an argument is a sign
[50:39.240 -> 50:42.520] that I care and that I care about you.
[50:42.520 -> 50:44.920] And I may argue really forcefully,
[50:44.920 -> 50:46.800] but I expect you to do the same thing back
[50:46.800 -> 50:48.520] and I want this to be like a debate.
[50:48.520 -> 50:50.700] And then my wife will say,
[50:50.700 -> 50:52.080] I'm not your debating partner.
[50:52.080 -> 50:53.720] I don't wanna have a three hour discussion
[50:53.720 -> 50:57.160] about everything we disagree on, that may not be necessary.
[50:57.160 -> 51:00.280] And I think what I've tried to land on there is to say,
[51:00.280 -> 51:02.920] it's important to agree on core values.
[51:02.920 -> 51:05.560] And it's important to disagree on the values. And it's important to disagree
[51:05.560 -> 51:06.920] on the best way to live those values
[51:06.920 -> 51:10.400] because I don't know and neither does anybody else
[51:10.400 -> 51:12.440] and we're kind of trying to figure it out as we go along.
[51:12.440 -> 51:14.280] Because my follow-up question was going to be
[51:14.280 -> 51:15.640] at what point do we make the decision
[51:15.640 -> 51:18.160] that actually we're not just constructively disagreeing
[51:18.160 -> 51:18.980] on a few things here,
[51:18.980 -> 51:21.120] like this just isn't happening and it isn't right.
[51:21.120 -> 51:24.340] How do people, how do you work out
[51:24.340 -> 51:25.640] when you've reached that point?
[51:25.640 -> 51:27.540] Yeah, I think where I start to get concerned
[51:27.540 -> 51:28.640] is when somebody starts saying,
[51:28.640 -> 51:30.540] well, let's just agree to disagree, right?
[51:30.540 -> 51:32.600] Which is a sign that they're ready to give up.
[51:32.600 -> 51:35.320] And I would like to believe I'm capable
[51:35.320 -> 51:36.800] of having a thoughtful disagreement
[51:36.800 -> 51:38.560] with anyone about anything.
[51:38.560 -> 51:41.120] And so that's a sign to me that I failed, right?
[51:41.120 -> 51:43.160] Because I have come across as either
[51:43.160 -> 51:47.440] because I went into prosecutor mode or because I was
[51:47.440 -> 51:54.480] preaching that I was so excited about my own point of view, I signaled to them that I was
[51:54.480 -> 51:57.900] basically too stubborn to change my mind.
[51:57.900 -> 52:02.100] And so what I will do when that happens is I will say, hey, I don't actually believe
[52:02.100 -> 52:06.800] in agreeing to disagree. To me, if you say let's agree to disagree,
[52:06.800 -> 52:10.280] it means that I need to stop trying to persuade
[52:10.280 -> 52:12.160] and I need to start trying to learn.
[52:12.160 -> 52:13.900] And so can you tell me what I screwed up
[52:13.900 -> 52:16.320] in this conversation that made you feel like
[52:16.320 -> 52:17.900] this was a lost cause?
[52:17.900 -> 52:20.840] And sometimes people don't even want to give the feedback.
[52:20.840 -> 52:23.240] Okay, if you do not want to have a conversation
[52:23.240 -> 52:28.460] about how we can have better conversations, then maybe we shouldn't be having conversations anymore. But if you're
[52:28.460 -> 52:32.800] willing to tell me, you know, here's where you lost me and here's what you did, I can
[52:32.800 -> 52:36.640] start to look for a pattern. Have I done that before with other people? Is this a topic
[52:36.640 -> 52:40.080] that brings out the worst in me? And then I can try to course correct it next time.
[52:40.080 -> 52:46.320] Well, I think one of your superpowers, Adam Adam having listened to you here is the ability to provide clarity
[52:46.760 -> 52:48.800] for the terms of any relationship
[52:48.800 -> 52:55.880] I think when you speak about going in as a consultant to a business and agreeing the terms of which you're going to go in and
[52:56.200 -> 52:58.200] consult with them or whether it's in a
[52:58.840 -> 53:03.920] relationship agreeing the clarity of like that phrase that you used about honesty and kindness
[53:04.200 -> 53:05.760] I'm not I'm not mutually exclusive. They're one on the same thing the clarity of, like that phrase that you used about honesty and kindness are not
[53:05.760 -> 53:10.440] mutually exclusive, they're one and the same thing. So what I'm interested in is
[53:10.440 -> 53:14.120] any quick tips beyond the one that you said about building that relationship
[53:14.120 -> 53:20.440] first of all, that our listeners can do to create a culture of clarity in terms
[53:20.440 -> 53:24.000] of the of engagement for any relationship?
[53:24.000 -> 53:27.280] You call it a superpower. I say it's a
[53:27.280 -> 53:32.320] weakness that reared its ugly head one too many times. And I've been in so many situations where
[53:32.320 -> 53:37.120] I've regretted not clarifying expectations. And then I've been disappointed by someone,
[53:37.680 -> 53:42.400] and then kind of wake up the next morning and realize, wait, when I'm disappointed in you,
[53:42.400 -> 53:46.800] it's not because of your actions. It's because your actions clash with my expectations.
[53:46.800 -> 53:48.900] And I never told you what my expectations were,
[53:48.900 -> 53:50.960] so why am I disappointed in you?
[53:50.960 -> 53:52.860] I should be disappointed in me.
[53:52.860 -> 53:54.640] I guess if you're trying to set the terms
[53:54.640 -> 53:56.680] for clarity in any relationship,
[53:56.680 -> 53:59.020] the most important thing that I've learned to do
[53:59.020 -> 54:00.720] is to ask why are you here?
[54:00.720 -> 54:04.440] I gave so many pieces of bad advice or unwanted advice
[54:04.440 -> 54:07.120] to students, to, you know, to athletes,
[54:07.120 -> 54:12.000] to entrepreneurs, in every walk of life where I was trying to apply psychology, people would
[54:12.000 -> 54:15.120] come and then I would tell them about the best evidence I knew.
[54:15.120 -> 54:20.000] And it just missed the mark because I didn't know what they were trying to accomplish.
[54:20.000 -> 54:25.540] And so even just asking, you know, when you come to me for advice on a decision or a dilemma,
[54:25.540 -> 54:30.540] are you looking to basically get my stamp of approval?
[54:30.540 -> 54:31.480] Do you want validation?
[54:31.480 -> 54:32.460] Because you already have it.
[54:32.460 -> 54:34.580] I want whatever you believe
[54:34.580 -> 54:36.820] is going to bring you success and happiness.
[54:36.820 -> 54:39.100] And if you believe that this is the right choice for you,
[54:39.100 -> 54:40.340] who am I to tell you otherwise?
[54:40.340 -> 54:41.460] I'm not you.
[54:41.460 -> 54:44.600] Are you here to widen your options?
[54:44.600 -> 54:48.040] Do you want me to help you think about possibilities you haven't considered?
[54:48.040 -> 54:52.640] Are you here because you want me to really decimate your reasoning and you're worried
[54:52.640 -> 54:56.240] that you might be making the wrong decision and you're bringing me to be part of your
[54:56.240 -> 54:57.860] challenge network?
[54:57.860 -> 55:01.480] And once I know that, it's a completely different conversation.
[55:01.480 -> 55:09.840] And I think that asking that, obviously, if you're on the mentoring or advising side or coaching side is invaluable. But I think sharing that if you're the person who's coming to
[55:09.840 -> 55:14.320] seek advice, right? Not to just say, could you give me advice on this? But here is the goal
[55:14.320 -> 55:20.000] of seeking advice. In a lot of cases, I will go to multiple people when I'm seeking advice,
[55:20.000 -> 55:24.320] and then they're disappointed that I didn't follow their advice. And what I realized was,
[55:24.320 -> 55:28.160] I forgot to tell them that I have a whole challenge network.
[55:28.160 -> 55:34.880] And I know that one person's view might be objective quality, or it might be idiosyncratic
[55:34.880 -> 55:39.520] taste. And the only way I can separate those two things is to ask a bunch of independent people,
[55:39.520 -> 55:44.000] and then see where they converge and where they diverge. And so the fact that I didn't take your
[55:44.000 -> 55:48.320] advice doesn't mean I didn't value your opinion. It's that I wasn't looking for you to tell me what to
[55:48.320 -> 55:53.760] do. I was looking to gather a bunch of information and then synthesize those different perspectives
[55:53.760 -> 55:59.520] and make an informed decision based on that. And I think you have a particular perspective,
[55:59.520 -> 56:03.600] just like I do, but both of ours are incomplete. And so I wanted to round those out. And I think
[56:03.600 -> 56:06.520] just trying to clarify that on both sides
[56:06.520 -> 56:07.940] is my most important advice.
[56:07.940 -> 56:09.040] And that was not a quick tip.
[56:09.040 -> 56:10.700] No, it wasn't, but it was a brilliant one.
[56:10.700 -> 56:11.540] So thank you.
[56:11.540 -> 56:12.360] Thanks for sharing it.
[56:12.360 -> 56:14.720] We're about to move on to our quickfire questions, Adam.
[56:14.720 -> 56:15.760] Before we do though,
[56:15.760 -> 56:16.760] with everything that you've learned
[56:16.760 -> 56:19.700] and all the amazing knowledge that you've shared with us,
[56:19.700 -> 56:22.520] is imposter syndrome still alive and well in your life?
[56:22.520 -> 56:25.680] Or have you found a way of quelling it?
[56:25.680 -> 56:28.680] I don't believe in treating it as a syndrome.
[56:28.680 -> 56:31.600] Like it's a chronic debilitating disease.
[56:31.600 -> 56:34.960] I guess there are people who walk around feeling like,
[56:34.960 -> 56:36.840] I am an actual fraud.
[56:36.840 -> 56:40.520] And I've never been qualified for any role I got.
[56:40.520 -> 56:43.400] I got lucky in every success I ever achieved,
[56:43.400 -> 56:46.000] and it's only a matter of minutes until everyone finds out.
[56:46.000 -> 56:48.000] That is extremely rare.
[56:48.000 -> 56:52.000] What's much more common, if you look at Basima Tewfik's research on this,
[56:52.000 -> 56:55.000] is imposter thoughts, the everyday flickers of doubt,
[56:55.000 -> 56:59.000] of wondering, am I as good as other people think I am?
[56:59.000 -> 57:04.000] And if you don't have those, you're at risk for arrogance or narcissism.
[57:04.000 -> 57:10.580] If you never doubt whether other people are overestimating you, then you are not putting
[57:10.580 -> 57:13.620] yourself in a position to keep growing and challenging yourself.
[57:13.620 -> 57:17.080] And so I think it's actually really important to have those imposter thoughts.
[57:17.080 -> 57:21.120] And Basima shows that they motivate you to work harder and longer sometimes, and that
[57:21.120 -> 57:24.080] they also motivate you to learn more from other people, because you know there's a gap
[57:24.080 -> 57:26.000] between where you are and where you want to be.
[57:26.000 -> 57:30.000] And you don't have all the answers, and so you've got to try to close the gap.
[57:30.000 -> 57:35.000] So for me, yeah, I have imposter thoughts almost every stage I get on.
[57:35.000 -> 57:39.000] There's a moment where I think, why should this audience learn from me?
[57:39.000 -> 57:42.000] And a colleague of mine, Hadle Thomas-Dodder,
[57:42.000 -> 57:45.840] who I think is a brilliant leader and really
[57:45.840 -> 57:50.000] skilled at turning imposter syndrome into fuel, taught me something that I apply in
[57:50.000 -> 57:51.760] those situations.
[57:51.760 -> 57:54.920] She says, if you're going to ask, why me?
[57:54.920 -> 57:57.040] You should also ask, why not me?
[57:57.040 -> 57:58.040] Brilliant.
[57:58.040 -> 57:59.040] Right.
[57:59.040 -> 58:00.560] Quick fire questions, Adam Grant.
[58:00.560 -> 58:06.000] Your three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you should buy into?
[58:06.000 -> 58:09.000] Ooh, three non-negotiable behaviors.
[58:09.000 -> 58:12.000] One is striving for excellence.
[58:12.000 -> 58:18.000] Two is being candid with each other.
[58:18.000 -> 58:27.480] And three is trying to focus not on our individual success but on our collective contribution.
[58:27.480 -> 58:29.960] Toby If you could go back to one period in your
[58:29.960 -> 58:31.720] life where would you go and why?
[58:31.720 -> 58:37.200] Jon I would go back to yesterday and I would spend
[58:37.200 -> 58:41.840] a little bit more time thinking through what's the most valuable information I can share
[58:41.840 -> 58:43.200] today so I ramble less.
[58:43.200 -> 58:44.880] Toby What's your biggest strength? What's your
[58:44.880 -> 58:46.140] greatest weakness?
[58:47.400 -> 58:51.920] My greatest weakness is probably
[58:51.920 -> 58:55.180] that I have a really hard time letting go of a goal
[58:55.180 -> 58:56.800] when I get attached to it.
[58:56.800 -> 58:58.760] And I end up in escalation of commitment
[58:58.760 -> 59:01.360] to losing courses of action a lot.
[59:01.360 -> 59:03.240] And I know it drives the people around me crazy
[59:03.240 -> 59:05.400] and sometimes gets me in trouble too, which is why I wrote a whole book
[59:05.400 -> 59:06.960] on why we need to think again.
[59:07.880 -> 59:10.680] I think if I had a greatest strength,
[59:10.680 -> 59:15.680] it's probably, it's the flip side of that, right?
[59:15.800 -> 59:19.760] I think most weaknesses are strengths overused and misused.
[59:19.760 -> 59:22.040] And I think probably my greatest strength
[59:22.040 -> 59:26.880] is my ability to lock into a goal and not let it go and misused. And I think probably my greatest strength is my ability to lock into a goal and
[59:27.840 -> 59:33.360] not let it go and persevere. And finally, Adam, what's your one golden rule to live a high
[59:33.360 -> 59:40.000] performance life? I think for me, high performance is about recognizing that the most meaningful way
[59:40.000 -> 59:47.680] to succeed is to help other people succeed. It's hard in the span of years and decades
[59:47.680 -> 59:53.840] to keep finding meaning in climbing a mountain yourself. But being able to lift other people
[59:53.840 -> 59:59.200] up to the top of that mountain, that creates a sustainable sense of purpose. And I think
[59:59.200 -> 01:00:04.040] it comes right back to where we started, which is if you know who's counting on you, then
[01:00:04.040 -> 01:00:05.140] it's not difficult
[01:00:05.140 -> 01:00:06.140] to find your motivation.
[01:00:06.140 -> 01:00:07.140] Thank you so much.
[01:00:07.140 -> 01:00:08.140] Cheers.
[01:00:08.140 -> 01:00:12.760] Well, what an interesting guy Adam Grant is. So that was where we left the conversation
[01:00:12.760 -> 01:00:17.000] with Adam. But actually, then we went on to have a really fascinating debrief about the
[01:00:17.000 -> 01:00:20.340] conversation that we just had. And it was the first time really that a guest had said
[01:00:20.340 -> 01:00:24.900] to Damian and I, don't you don't you ask for feedback when you interview people? And we
[01:00:24.900 -> 01:00:25.880] said, Well, no, not really.
[01:00:25.880 -> 01:00:28.640] We kind of do the interview and thank people politely.
[01:00:28.640 -> 01:00:30.600] And he said, how can you sit in front of
[01:00:30.600 -> 01:00:32.520] some of the world's greatest high performers
[01:00:32.520 -> 01:00:34.680] and not ask them for their feedback?
[01:00:34.680 -> 01:00:36.000] And actually it's totally changed the way
[01:00:36.000 -> 01:00:37.560] that we approach these high performance
[01:00:37.560 -> 01:00:38.760] podcast conversations.
[01:00:38.760 -> 01:00:41.720] So if you'd like to hear the extended episode
[01:00:41.720 -> 01:00:43.640] and hear Adam talking to Damien and I
[01:00:43.640 -> 01:00:46.400] about the power of feedback,
[01:00:46.400 -> 01:00:50.740] then all you need to do is subscribe to High Performance Plus, click the link, become a
[01:00:50.740 -> 01:00:57.280] subscriber and get some additional content that's really valuable right now.
[01:00:57.280 -> 01:01:01.440] Damien, Jake.
[01:01:01.440 -> 01:01:05.740] It makes me realize that I've lived my life assuming people's reaction to things. I'm about to do
[01:01:06.420 -> 01:01:09.460] But I've never set expectations for what I'm about to do
[01:01:10.020 -> 01:01:11.900] So I've never said to them at the beginning
[01:01:11.900 -> 01:01:17.060] This is because I care or we're gonna do this because this is what I think or even you know, even something
[01:01:17.740 -> 01:01:21.980] Like, um, you know, it's everyday life things. Like where do we go for dinner?
[01:01:21.980 -> 01:01:23.780] You know setting people's expectations like listen
[01:01:23.780 -> 01:01:26.540] I think as a family we should go here for this reason
[01:01:26.540 -> 01:01:29.380] and then let the kids or Harriet say where they think. Do you know what I mean?
[01:01:29.380 -> 01:01:33.440] It's not just big life-changing conversations, it's, it's, it's all the way
[01:01:33.440 -> 01:01:37.300] through. It's like, I suppose really what I get from him is that life is a
[01:01:37.300 -> 01:01:40.220] negotiation, it's a conversation, it's a two-way thing.
[01:01:40.220 -> 01:01:45.560] Steve Martin Yeah, but I think that idea of setting the parameters of that conversation, so you know
[01:01:45.560 -> 01:01:50.040] like that bit when he said people come and ask your opinion and you say, can I just clarify,
[01:01:50.040 -> 01:01:54.000] are you looking for me to validate it, are you looking for me to critique it, are you
[01:01:54.000 -> 01:01:57.600] looking for me just to listen and not say anything?
[01:01:57.600 -> 01:02:03.240] I think that way then, it's often when you manage the expectations of both parties, that's
[01:02:03.240 -> 01:02:09.120] where the real value comes from and disappointment, as he said, is often where it's disappointment in ourselves
[01:02:09.120 -> 01:02:13.200] because we haven't clarified what the rules of engagement were.
[01:02:13.200 -> 01:02:18.800] And that lovely line he said at the end, you know, if what I've done is the only
[01:02:18.800 -> 01:02:23.720] thing that people see of me, what would they think of it? Did I get that right?
[01:02:23.720 -> 01:02:28.200] Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, would I be proud of it? Yeah, and I think that's a really
[01:02:28.200 -> 01:02:32.640] powerful question to ask. I know we've had this debate recently, when we've
[01:02:32.640 -> 01:02:37.920] been talking about the podcast and the impact, and it's that sometimes we
[01:02:37.920 -> 01:02:42.040] worry about repeating some of the same messages or going over the same lines,
[01:02:42.040 -> 01:02:46.000] but I think if that's the only line that anybody's ever going to hear of this,
[01:02:46.000 -> 01:02:52.000] would we be proud? Would we stand by some of those messages? And I think the answer is yes.
[01:02:52.000 -> 01:02:53.000] Great. Thank you, mate.
[01:02:53.000 -> 01:02:55.000] I loved it. Thanks. That was a real privilege.
[01:02:56.000 -> 01:02:59.000] Now, though, it's time to talk about the high performance community,
[01:02:59.000 -> 01:03:03.000] because without you listening to this podcast and sharing your stories with us,
[01:03:03.000 -> 01:03:05.240] there is no high-performance community.
[01:03:05.240 -> 01:03:06.960] Thank you to everyone that reaches out
[01:03:06.960 -> 01:03:08.480] and tells us the journey they've been on
[01:03:08.480 -> 01:03:10.100] and how the podcast has helped them.
[01:03:10.100 -> 01:03:12.160] And we love to put those people
[01:03:12.160 -> 01:03:14.000] on our episodes of High Performance.
[01:03:14.000 -> 01:03:16.740] So let's do it right now and meet someone
[01:03:16.740 -> 01:03:18.520] who's listened to and been helped
[01:03:18.520 -> 01:03:20.460] by the High Performance podcast.
[01:03:20.460 -> 01:03:22.440] Not only did we get a lovely message from this person,
[01:03:22.440 -> 01:03:24.260] we also got some great photos as well
[01:03:24.260 -> 01:03:28.080] of him wearing his All In t-shirt and his Winners Take Control t-shirt that
[01:03:28.080 -> 01:03:32.760] he bought from the high performance merchandise store. I tell you what, he's looking good
[01:03:32.760 -> 01:03:35.840] in them as well. Jermaine Blackwood, nice to see you, man.
[01:03:35.840 -> 01:03:38.600] How are you doing, Jake? Good to see you. You okay?
[01:03:38.600 -> 01:03:43.560] Very well, thank you. So you sent us a message and you said that you're a husband of five
[01:03:43.560 -> 01:03:50.400] years, a father of two. You started out on a council estate in Derby. You worked on a car production line at the age of 20
[01:03:50.400 -> 01:03:54.720] before quitting that job and starting an access course, then getting your undergraduate degree
[01:03:54.720 -> 01:03:59.200] at Derby University onto King's College London to do a postgrad in sports law,
[01:03:59.200 -> 01:04:04.080] then eventually onto Liverpool University to complete an MBA. I just want to know where
[01:04:04.080 -> 01:04:05.400] this drive to better
[01:04:05.400 -> 01:04:09.320] yourself constantly has come from, because that is impressive, man.
[01:04:09.320 -> 01:04:15.720] I'd say my drive actually came from not having anything growing up. So there was four of
[01:04:15.720 -> 01:04:21.600] us living in a council house, as well as my mum. So she had four children living in a
[01:04:21.600 -> 01:04:25.000] council house. I was in my mum's bedroom till the age of nine or 10.
[01:04:25.160 -> 01:04:27.640] So you can imagine how crammed that house was.
[01:04:28.000 -> 01:04:31.760] I'd always said to myself that I wanted better for myself growing up.
[01:04:32.680 -> 01:04:33.840] My mom did the best she could.
[01:04:33.840 -> 01:04:34.920] She did the best she could.
[01:04:34.920 -> 01:04:37.480] She raised four of us all on her own.
[01:04:37.600 -> 01:04:42.120] She worked a job as well, seven till four o'clock every day.
[01:04:42.960 -> 01:04:46.720] So it must have been, I can imagine it was really stressful for her.
[01:04:46.920 -> 01:04:49.560] We never had any holidays growing up as children.
[01:04:49.560 -> 01:04:52.040] We never had any sleepovers or anything like that.
[01:04:52.080 -> 01:04:53.360] My mom did the best she could.
[01:04:53.360 -> 01:04:55.120] It was very stressful for her.
[01:04:55.120 -> 01:04:57.840] She worked seven o'clock till four o'clock every day.
[01:04:58.720 -> 01:05:01.360] And so that's where my drive came from.
[01:05:01.360 -> 01:05:06.160] I just thought to myself when I was younger, she'd gone through all that.
[01:05:06.160 -> 01:05:10.000] So I achieved working in the car manufacturing plant
[01:05:10.000 -> 01:05:12.160] by the age of 19, 20 years old.
[01:05:12.160 -> 01:05:14.280] And I just thought to myself, you know what?
[01:05:14.280 -> 01:05:17.520] I felt like I could achieve more.
[01:05:17.520 -> 01:05:21.840] So I decided to go to university
[01:05:21.840 -> 01:05:26.800] and I knew what I wanted to do at the end of my university degree course,
[01:05:26.800 -> 01:05:33.840] so I just worked backwards and I was really driven and I think some of my driving determination also
[01:05:33.840 -> 01:05:40.880] come from being a bit of an underdog as well. So a lot of people just thought that I would
[01:05:40.880 -> 01:05:46.680] end up working in McDonald's or something like that. And that sort of drives you to an extent.
[01:05:47.200 -> 01:05:52.600] So my reasons was to obviously provide for my future family.
[01:05:52.680 -> 01:05:56.000] Things like holidays,
[01:05:56.840 -> 01:06:00.680] sleepovers, a close family unit, things like that.
[01:06:00.680 -> 01:06:03.400] So that's where my drive and determination came from.
[01:06:03.800 -> 01:06:05.040] So I think we
[01:06:05.040 -> 01:06:09.640] missed out on that, unfortunately, growing up as kids.
[01:06:09.640 -> 01:06:14.360] You said on your email that the concept of fault and responsibility means a lot to you
[01:06:14.360 -> 01:06:18.800] and has an impact on your life in the last couple of years. Could you in, I don't know,
[01:06:18.800 -> 01:06:20.920] 60 seconds, explain to us why that's so important?
[01:06:20.920 -> 01:06:25.360] I'll give you an example. Everyone's suffering at the minute in terms of the
[01:06:25.360 -> 01:06:30.720] energy crisis, and that is nobody's fault. It's not my fault. Personally, it's nobody's fault.
[01:06:30.720 -> 01:06:37.840] But how I respond to that is the only thing that's in my control. So a lot of people who I've spoken
[01:06:37.840 -> 01:06:46.000] to about it will be negative, and rightly so. But for me, I will flip that on its head and I feel there's nothing I can
[01:06:46.000 -> 01:06:51.120] do. It's not my fault that I'm in the position of paying high prices for gas and electric,
[01:06:51.120 -> 01:06:57.480] but what can I do differently? Go to bed early, wake up early, get on the ball, earn more
[01:06:57.480 -> 01:07:07.480] money. And I feel that's my self-taker responsibility in terms of bringing more money into the household
[01:07:07.480 -> 01:07:10.400] to offset those rising prices.
[01:07:10.400 -> 01:07:15.120] If you were to share two brilliant messages that have made a difference to you from high
[01:07:15.120 -> 01:07:17.640] performance with the listeners right now, what would they be?
[01:07:17.640 -> 01:07:21.880] I think Vicky Patterson's episode was really good.
[01:07:21.880 -> 01:07:26.160] I feel the need to look after yourself before you can take care
[01:07:26.160 -> 01:07:35.640] of others is paramount because how can I give my wife and my child 100% of myself unless
[01:07:35.640 -> 01:07:42.440] I'm looking after myself mentally, health and fitness wise. So I feel that's one message
[01:07:42.440 -> 01:07:47.840] and also I feel Van Persie's message in terms of winners take responsibility
[01:07:48.400 -> 01:07:53.760] instead of blaming external factors, just focus on what you could control
[01:07:54.040 -> 01:07:56.680] and take 100% responsibility.
[01:07:57.160 -> 01:07:57.640] I love it.
[01:07:57.880 -> 01:08:01.800] Listen, mate, I think your story is fantastic because you know, what we
[01:08:01.800 -> 01:08:04.720] haven't even got onto is that after all of that hard work and after all those
[01:08:04.720 -> 01:08:07.760] degrees and everything, you know, know you you thought your life was going
[01:08:07.760 -> 01:08:13.080] to be working as a football agent you start the job you hate the job and you're brave
[01:08:13.080 -> 01:08:17.840] enough to realize it was more to life and to walk away from that and you're now doing
[01:08:17.840 -> 01:08:22.400] Spanish and German language courses I just love your constant desire for growth and I
[01:08:22.400 -> 01:08:25.920] think that my favorite line is at the end of the email
[01:08:25.920 -> 01:08:31.360] when you say, I feel there's more room for further growth and improvement with everything that I'm
[01:08:31.360 -> 01:08:36.800] doing. And I think that that is going to carry you a really long way. So thank you so much for
[01:08:36.800 -> 01:08:39.840] joining us Jumaine, that's a pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you, Jake.
[01:08:41.600 -> 01:08:45.380] Well, there you go. I'd love to know what you made of that. Please reach out on social
[01:08:45.380 -> 01:08:50.100] media and let me know. And don't forget, we're bringing high performance around the UK. If
[01:08:50.100 -> 01:08:55.940] you want to come and see us live in person for not a live podcast show, but a live theatre
[01:08:55.940 -> 01:08:59.320] show that gets right to the heart of high performance. We'll talk about it more in the
[01:08:59.320 -> 01:09:05.360] coming weeks on the podcast. But if you want to come just go to the high performance podcast.com
[01:09:05.880 -> 01:09:10.720] Forward slash live 2023. That's the high performance podcast.com
[01:09:11.320 -> 01:09:13.240] forward-slash live
[01:09:13.240 -> 01:09:18.280] 2023 listen, thank you so much for growing and sharing this podcast among your community
[01:09:18.280 -> 01:09:23.720] Please continue to spread the learnings you're taking from this series. Thanks to the whole team behind the scenes
[01:09:23.720 -> 01:09:29.840] But most of all thanks to you remember there is no secret, it is all there for you, so chase world-class
[01:09:29.840 -> 01:09:36.880] basics, don't get high on your own supply, remain humble, curious and empathetic, and we'll see you
[01:09:36.880 -> None] soon. Bye for now. you you