E157 - Jamie Peacock: Being the best at the things that require no talent

In the third of our series to celebrate the Rugby League World Cup, we are delighted to welcome Jamie Peacock, a man who has burnished his legendary status within the sport, by consistently doing “the things that require no talent” at the very moments when the pressure is at its greatest, the margins are at their narrowest and the competition is at its fiercest. In turn, he has acquired a medal haul which would fill a museum. He shares with us the transferrable lessons learnt along the way and which can be adopted into your own life.

Jamie was a leader through his example and helped shaped high performance cultures at Bradford, Leeds and England. The foundation stone on which these were built were accountability. “Tell people what you are going to do, then do it” is his succinct message. “This is how trust is created, nurtured and maintained.” 

This is a powerful, profound and incredibly practical interview which will leave you ready to create your own high performance culture. 

Listen back to the other episodes in the series;

Sam Burgess: https://apple.co/3sG3g7v

Lindsey Burrow: https://apple.co/3TPl6Rw

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## Summary of the Podcast Episode:

The podcast episode features Jamie Peacock, a legendary rugby league player and coach, in conversation with Professor Damien Hughes. The discussion revolves around high performance, leadership, and decision-making in sports and life.

1. ### Definition of High Performance:
- Jamie Peacock defines high performance as a group of individuals who are dedicated to each other, the cause, and their own performances. He emphasizes the importance of personal responsibility and taking ownership of commitments.


2. ### The "Time to Get Off the Bus" Story:
- Jamie shares a pivotal moment in his life when he was 19 and had the opportunity to train with the Bradford Bulls, a professional rugby league team. Initially, he hesitated and considered taking the easy way out by staying on the bus. However, he realized the importance of facing his fears and believing in himself. He got off the bus and went on to have a successful career in rugby league.


3. ### The Importance of Hard Decisions:
- Jamie discusses the concept of dividing life into easy and hard decisions. He believes that making hard decisions consistently leads to an easier life, while making easy decisions often results in a harder life. He emphasizes the significance of making hard decisions in areas where talent is not a factor, such as effort, grit, and work ethic.


4. ### Habits and Routines of Elite Athletes:
- Jamie highlights the importance of certain habits and routines that he adopted as an elite athlete, which he continues to practice in his post-retirement life. These habits include getting up early, training regularly, staying hydrated, writing to-do lists, and delivering on his word.


5. ### The Power of Accountability and Trust:
- Jamie stresses the importance of accountability and trust in high-performance teams. He believes that when people deliver on their promises and commitments, it creates a culture of trust and respect. He emphasizes the need to gently remind people of their commitments if they fail to deliver.


6. ### The Impact of Mindset on Performance:
- Jamie shares his experience of being diagnosed with cancer and how he refused to let it define his life. He adopted a positive mindset and applied the same attitude to the latter part of his career, resulting in some of his best performances as a rugby league player.


7. ### Leadership Through Example:
- Jamie emphasizes the importance of leaders setting an example through their actions rather than just words. He believes that people tend to believe what they see rather than what they hear, and that leaders should demonstrate the behaviors and values they expect from their team members.


8. ### The Value of Personal Responsibility:
- Jamie highlights the significance of personal responsibility in high-performance environments. He believes that individuals should take ownership of their mistakes and learn from them, rather than doubling up on errors. He emphasizes the importance of accountability and self-awareness in improving performance.

**Navigating Mistakes and Doubling Up Errors:**

- Jamie Peacock emphasizes the importance of avoiding "doubling up" on errors and mistakes to maintain a high-performance culture.
- He shares an incident where he dropped two balls consecutively and was taken off the field, leading to a realization about the significance of not compounding errors.
- Peacock highlights the need to move on from mistakes quickly, regain focus, and take immediate positive action to prevent further errors.

**Psychological Safety in High-Performing Cultures:**

- Psychological safety is crucial in high-performing cultures, allowing team members to admit mistakes, learn from them, and avoid pointing fingers.
- Peacock reflects on the 2008 World Cup, where a lack of psychological safety among England players led to an environment where weaknesses were hidden, hindering learning and improvement.
- In contrast, the Leeds Rhinos fostered a culture where players felt comfortable owning up to mistakes and working together to overcome challenges.

**Ego-Less Leadership and Collaborative Success:**

- Peacock's transition from the Bradford Bulls to the Leeds Rhinos involved joining a team with a strong culture and established leaders.
- He emphasizes the importance of subsuming one's ego and collaborating with other leaders to contribute to the team's success.
- Peacock and then-captain Kevin Sinfield complemented each other's leadership styles, creating a powerful partnership that drove the team's success.

**Integrating New Signings into the Team Culture:**

- To integrate new signings into the team culture, Peacock focused on demonstrating the team's norms and standards through behavior and actions.
- He highlights the importance of building relationships, owning up to mistakes, and creating a culture where everyone is held accountable for their actions.
- Direct communication and feedback were crucial in addressing any deviations from the team's standards.

**Challenging Behaviors and Maintaining Standards:**

- Peacock emphasizes the need to challenge behaviors that fall outside the team's norms and standards.
- He shares an incident where he confronted a senior player for back-chatting to referees during training, setting a clear marker for the team.
- Peacock acknowledges the importance of timely and direct feedback, seeking consent before providing feedback, and using data points to support the feedback.

**Motivating Players During High-Pressure Playoff Games:**

- Peacock views playoff games as opportunities to showcase the team's capabilities under pressure and rise above expectations.
- He believes in connecting the team's goals to a human story or emotional narrative to inspire and motivate players.
- Peacock highlights the success of the 2015 Leeds Rhinos team, who used the impending departures of three key players as motivation to win the treble.

**The Art of Theming and Emotional Connection:**

- Peacock discusses the use of themes to create a sense of purpose and emotional connection within the team.
- He emphasizes the importance of timing, suggesting that emotional sessions should be conducted 24 hours before a game to allow for residual impact.
- Peacock acknowledges the difficulty of maintaining a theme throughout an entire season and suggests focusing on specific moments or events to create emotional connections.

**Finding Personal Motivation in Grand Finals:**

- Peacock reflects on his approach to grand finals, seeking a personal slant or human story to connect with and inspire the team.
- He highlights the need to actively look for these stories and use them to create a collective emotional lift within the team.
- Peacock emphasizes the balance between using negative comments as motivation and focusing on proving oneself right, using adversity to achieve greatness.

# Jamie Peacock: The Art of Leadership and Creating High-Performance Cultures

## Summary

In this episode of the High-Performance Rugby League World Cup Specials podcast, host Damian Hughes sits down with Jamie Peacock, a legendary rugby league player and coach, to discuss leadership, creating high-performance cultures, and the importance of personal responsibility.

## Key Points

- **Leadership Through Example**: Jamie Peacock emphasizes the importance of leading by example and creating a culture of accountability within a team. He stresses that trust is built by consistently delivering on one's promises and actions, fostering a positive and productive environment.

- **Hard Versus Easy Decisions**: Peacock suggests dividing decisions into hard and easy categories. By making more hard decisions and reflecting on the outcomes, individuals can build confidence and resilience, knowing they can handle challenging situations.

- **The Power of Trust**: Peacock highlights the significance of trust in high-performing teams. He defines trust as simply doing what you say you will do, consistently following through on commitments. Building trust enables team members to rely on one another, especially during challenging times.

- **Non-Negotiable Behaviors**: Peacock identifies three non-negotiable behaviors that he and those around him must adhere to: doing the right thing by people, taking personal responsibility for decisions and mistakes, and being honest. These principles form the foundation of a strong and ethical team culture.

- **Legacy and Integrity**: Peacock believes that his legacy should reflect his integrity and honesty, rather than solely his achievements as a rugby player. He emphasizes the importance of doing the right thing by people and delivering on one's word, leaving a positive impact on those he interacts with.

- **Advice to Younger Self**: Peacock advises his younger self to say yes more often, embracing new opportunities and experiences. He encourages individuals to step outside their comfort zones and explore different paths, leading to exciting outcomes and personal growth.

- **Golden Rule for High-Performance Life**: Peacock's golden rule for living a high-performance life is to always do what you say you're going to do. By consistently following through on commitments, individuals build credibility, trust, and a strong reputation.

## Overall Message

Jamie Peacock's insights provide valuable lessons on leadership, personal responsibility, and creating high-performance cultures. His emphasis on integrity, honesty, and delivering on promises resonates with the core principles of effective leadership and teamwork. Peacock's journey from player to coach and his ability to adapt and thrive in different roles exemplify the importance of continuous learning and embracing challenges. The podcast offers practical advice and inspiring anecdotes that can be applied to various aspects of life, both on and off the field.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.480] Hi there, welcome along to the latest special episode of the High Performance Podcast to
[00:05.480 -> 00:10.520] celebrate the Rugby League World Cup. And today, Professor Damien Hughes, who has for
[00:10.520 -> 00:16.080] years worked with elite rugby league coaches, players and clubs, is sitting down with a
[00:16.080 -> 00:22.200] true legend of the game. Here's what you can expect on today's episode.
[00:22.200 -> 00:25.280] No one's ever taken a great
[00:23.540 -> 00:26.960] challenge and I'm 100% said to
[00:25.280 -> 00:28.600] himself I'm absolutely gonna nail
[00:26.960 -> 00:30.560] this. That's the reason why we have big
[00:28.600 -> 00:32.720] challenges because there's a doubt of
[00:30.560 -> 00:34.520] whether you can do it or not but the
[00:32.720 -> 00:36.800] first step in doing it is believing in
[00:34.520 -> 00:38.680] yourself and that's what I learned that
[00:36.800 -> 00:39.760] day. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was
[00:38.680 -> 00:41.400] gonna be I think that's what always
[00:39.760 -> 00:43.520] happens when we front up to big
[00:41.400 -> 00:45.080] fears and that basically is what
[00:43.520 -> 00:46.320] courage is isn't it? I think courage is fronting up to fear.
[00:46.320 -> 00:49.000] It's about leaning into it rather than taking the easy option
[00:49.000 -> 00:51.360] like I did the first time around.
[00:51.360 -> 00:54.120] I think the more decisions in our life
[00:54.120 -> 00:55.840] that we make hard decisions,
[00:55.840 -> 00:58.200] I think how easier our lives become.
[00:58.200 -> 01:00.800] But I think the more easy decisions we make,
[01:00.800 -> 01:03.240] the harder our lives become.
[01:03.240 -> 01:04.080] Do you know what?
[01:04.080 -> 01:09.840] My dad had the best mindset. He refused to let anybody like box him in, you know like say
[01:09.840 -> 01:13.000] if you used to let the oncologist say you've got three months left to live, I'm
[01:13.000 -> 01:16.680] not having that. I thought what an attitude that is to have so I applied that
[01:16.680 -> 01:20.240] attitude to the last couple of years of my career, you know I wouldn't let a
[01:20.240 -> 01:27.160] pundit, a play gone before me, a coach or anyone dictate, you know, what I could do in the backstage of my career.
[01:27.160 -> 01:33.420] I firmly believe by him doing that the last couple of years, I played my best rugby as a player, you know,
[01:33.420 -> 01:37.400] I was like the Leeds Rhinos player a year twice, nearly won the Man of Steel in the dream team.
[01:37.520 -> 01:43.040] It all came together me and that for me showed out of a really crappy negative situation
[01:43.040 -> 01:49.680] can draw a positive out of it and for me inspired me right to the death. So today Damien is talking to Jamie
[01:49.680 -> 01:53.080] Peacock, like you will know him as someone who had an amazing rugby league
[01:53.080 -> 01:57.040] career playing for Leeds Rhinos and the Bradford Bulls in the Super League, he
[01:57.040 -> 02:02.760] captained Great Britain and England at international level. He retired seven or
[02:02.760 -> 02:05.520] eight years ago and then he went on to become a director of
[02:05.520 -> 02:12.160] rugby and he also is a motivational speaker. He's a leadership mentor and he's an all-round
[02:12.160 -> 02:16.720] impressive individual. There is so much that I know you're going to get from this episode.
[02:16.720 -> 02:20.920] You'll hear Jamie talk about time to get off the bus, which is his mantra that goes all
[02:20.920 -> 02:24.960] the way back to when he was a teenager and he was too nervous to get off the bus for
[02:24.960 -> 02:27.540] his Bradford Bulls trial. You're talking
[02:27.540 -> 02:30.820] about the way he breaks up his day into a series of decisions, big ones or small
[02:30.820 -> 02:34.740] ones, easy ones or hard ones, and also the fact that the best people in his world
[02:34.740 -> 02:39.740] just deliver on their word. I love the phrase, I don't believe what you say
[02:39.740 -> 02:43.740] because I see what you do, and that resonated when I listened to this
[02:43.740 -> 02:45.160] episode.
[02:45.160 -> 02:47.040] He talks about personal responsibility as well,
[02:47.040 -> 02:50.800] which we discuss a lot on the High Performance Podcast
[02:50.800 -> 02:53.880] and not doubling up on your errors.
[02:53.880 -> 02:56.080] It's a really, really brilliant conversation.
[02:56.080 -> 02:58.080] Thank you so much to Professor Damien Hughes
[02:58.080 -> 03:01.000] for bringing his usual charm and knowledge
[03:01.000 -> 03:03.580] and empathy to this conversation.
[03:03.580 -> 03:04.880] This is to celebrate the fact
[03:04.880 -> 03:06.400] that it's the Rugby League World Cup at the moment.
[03:06.400 -> 03:10.200] And don't forget, actually, you can hear our conversation with the England coach,
[03:10.200 -> 03:14.900] Sean Wayne, which was part of the very early episodes of the High Performance Podcast.
[03:14.900 -> 03:16.900] So take a listen to that one in the archives.
[03:16.900 -> 03:17.900] It's well worth it.
[03:17.900 -> 03:21.800] But right now, here he is, Rugby League legend, Jamie Peacock,
[03:21.800 -> 03:24.900] talking to our very own Professor Damian Hughes
[03:24.900 -> 03:25.680] on this Rugby
[03:25.680 -> 03:29.680] League World Cup special for the High Performance Podcast.
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[05:49.840 -> 05:55.480] So Jamie we're going to start this interview with the question we ask everybody, what is high performance to you? High performance to me would be kind
[05:55.480 -> 06:01.800] of a group of individuals who have no ego about themselves and just fully
[06:01.800 -> 06:09.760] commit themselves to each other, to the cause and what they want to succeed with and take personal responsibility for their
[06:09.760 -> 06:13.700] own performances, what they commit to the group and what they commit to the cause
[06:13.700 -> 06:17.940] as well. I think if you get a critical mass of people doing that within a team
[06:17.940 -> 06:20.240] then you've got a high performance environment.
[06:20.240 -> 06:26.480] So we're gonna come back to that in moment, but I want to take you onto the bus going
[06:26.480 -> 06:32.040] round Oddsall Stadium, right? You're 19 years of age, you sat on the top deck of the bus,
[06:32.040 -> 06:36.720] you've been called for your first trial at Bradford Bulls. Tell me about the moment when
[06:36.720 -> 06:37.720] you pull up.
[06:37.720 -> 06:42.680] Even though I have had a successful rugby league career, you know, captain England and
[06:42.680 -> 06:46.560] Great Britain, I was probably never earmarked to do that kind of thing.
[06:46.560 -> 06:48.560] Didn't have the most natural talent as a player,
[06:48.560 -> 06:51.600] but I played as a five-year-old all the way through to 16.
[06:51.600 -> 06:54.760] And during that time, I was never picked for a lead
[06:54.760 -> 06:56.560] city side, a Yorkshire side, or England side.
[06:56.560 -> 06:57.680] I'm actually never good enough.
[06:57.680 -> 07:00.520] 16 years old, scouts come in,
[07:00.520 -> 07:03.040] not one scout interested in signing me, okay?
[07:03.040 -> 07:04.800] Which means, obviously not your confidence,
[07:04.800 -> 07:08.040] you're self-aware enough to know I'm not the greatest player here. Will I ever make it
[07:08.040 -> 07:12.160] professional? Probably not. But I kept plugging away. I love playing rugby league. I love
[07:12.160 -> 07:16.800] playing with my mates. I love the camaraderie it gives you. 18 and a half years old, I start
[07:16.800 -> 07:20.600] to get watched by the Bradford Bulls. So the Bradford Bulls scouts start to come down and
[07:20.600 -> 07:25.240] watch me play for my amateur club. Then they speak to my coach, speak to my dad,
[07:25.240 -> 07:28.040] and they want me to come up and train for the first team.
[07:28.040 -> 07:30.520] So, news gets back to me,
[07:30.520 -> 07:32.480] I'm thinking this is sliding doors moment,
[07:32.480 -> 07:33.960] change your life forever,
[07:33.960 -> 07:35.920] but loads of self-doubt inside of me,
[07:35.920 -> 07:36.760] because I think to myself,
[07:36.760 -> 07:38.960] I've got to train with people I watch on TV,
[07:38.960 -> 07:42.600] you know, my heroes who play on BBC, on Sky Sports,
[07:42.600 -> 07:43.560] big challenge is this,
[07:43.560 -> 07:46.280] which meant some racks with self-doubt,
[07:46.280 -> 07:47.320] but I'm thinking I've got to do it.
[07:47.320 -> 07:48.720] You've got to take this opportunity.
[07:48.720 -> 07:50.160] So the following week, I catch the bus
[07:50.160 -> 07:52.080] from where I live in Leeds up to Bradford,
[07:52.080 -> 07:55.280] 20, 20 to 30 minute journey up to Udsall Stadium.
[07:55.280 -> 07:58.320] And on this journey, I get more and more nervous
[07:58.320 -> 08:00.600] and more and more self-talk makes the,
[08:00.600 -> 08:01.840] it's negative self-talk,
[08:01.840 -> 08:04.720] gets the self-doubt bigger and bigger and bigger.
[08:04.720 -> 08:06.000] And what were you saying to yourself?
[08:06.000 -> 08:08.000] Just that this is too big for you.
[08:08.000 -> 08:09.800] This is, you know, it's going to be really good.
[08:09.800 -> 08:10.800] People are going to laugh at you.
[08:10.800 -> 08:13.600] You're not going to be good enough to play with these first team players.
[08:13.600 -> 08:17.400] All this kind of negative connotations that you get,
[08:17.400 -> 08:20.000] I think when you've got big challenges in front of you.
[08:20.000 -> 08:24.400] And I think now I know that having big challenges can bring negative thoughts,
[08:24.400 -> 08:28.440] but when you have a big challenge in front of you, that's the best place to be right? Because if you can overcome it
[08:28.600 -> 08:34.720] That's generally where you get the most satisfaction or accomplishment in life. But as a 19 year old, I'm not thinking about that on this bus
[08:34.800 -> 08:39.860] I'm thinking this is huge challenge. I'm not sure if I'm good enough to do it. Easiest thing for me to do
[08:39.860 -> 08:42.680] I think it's just stay on the bus and normally I'll be alright
[08:42.680 -> 08:46.800] I'll just do that, I'll bottle it and that's what I did. Bottled it and stayed on the bus.
[08:46.800 -> 08:49.600] Now stayed on it till it terminated in Halifax.
[08:49.600 -> 08:54.300] So what were you saying to yourself at that moment when it's gone past your stop?
[08:54.300 -> 08:57.700] Just, you know, I think you're upset with yourself, angry,
[08:57.700 -> 09:00.300] because you're taking the easy option. I've taken the easy option.
[09:00.300 -> 09:04.900] There's two options at that point when I get to my bus stop outside Ulsall Stadium.
[09:04.900 -> 09:05.000] One is get off the bus stop outside Ulster Stadium,
[09:05.000 -> 09:06.940] one is get off the bus, meet the challenge,
[09:06.940 -> 09:08.380] go train with the first team.
[09:08.380 -> 09:11.160] The other one is be cowardly and sit on the bus
[09:11.160 -> 09:13.120] and let self-doubt get the better of you.
[09:13.120 -> 09:14.680] And I chose the second option.
[09:14.680 -> 09:17.240] And it makes me a bit like hot flush now
[09:17.240 -> 09:18.720] thinking about it actually,
[09:18.720 -> 09:21.340] inside thinking about taking that easier option,
[09:21.340 -> 09:22.600] but that's the one I took.
[09:22.600 -> 09:25.080] And that's why I ended up in Halifax
[09:25.080 -> 09:27.600] rather than Bradford, feeling embarrassed,
[09:27.600 -> 09:30.840] feeling upset and thinking, what do I do next?
[09:30.840 -> 09:34.000] So what do I do next is bring my dad.
[09:34.000 -> 09:34.840] He's upset.
[09:34.840 -> 09:37.960] He's really upset, you know,
[09:37.960 -> 09:40.360] so teach me some new swear words basically.
[09:40.360 -> 09:41.200] He's upset.
[09:41.200 -> 09:43.680] But he does, you know, have a go at me and say,
[09:43.680 -> 09:44.520] do you know what?
[09:44.520 -> 09:45.740] I'm going to try and get you another chance next week.
[09:45.740 -> 09:48.260] I'll speak to the coach and you know,
[09:48.260 -> 09:49.400] we'll see what we can do next week.
[09:49.400 -> 09:51.300] Catch the bus home and we'll have a chat.
[09:51.300 -> 09:54.340] So that left me at bus stop waiting for the 508 bus
[09:54.340 -> 09:55.380] to get back again.
[09:55.380 -> 09:59.580] And in that point, then I begin to think a lot about,
[09:59.580 -> 10:01.700] you know, what I've done and you know,
[10:01.700 -> 10:02.980] the option I've taken.
[10:02.980 -> 10:05.080] And if I get another chance, what do I need to do?
[10:05.080 -> 10:07.280] And inside me, I'm thinking, do you know what?
[10:07.280 -> 10:08.920] I have people around me who believe in me.
[10:08.920 -> 10:09.800] Clearly my dad does,
[10:09.800 -> 10:11.200] because he wants to give me another chance.
[10:11.200 -> 10:13.320] The scouts do, the coaches do,
[10:13.320 -> 10:15.000] but it's me who has to believe in this,
[10:15.000 -> 10:17.800] or it's me who's going to have to overcome this self-doubt,
[10:17.800 -> 10:20.320] take the difficult option, not the easy one,
[10:20.320 -> 10:22.960] and I'll give myself a chance of being a professional player
[10:22.960 -> 10:25.680] and change my life forever.
[10:25.680 -> 10:27.920] So come up with a kind of mantra,
[10:27.920 -> 10:29.320] time to get off the bus.
[10:29.320 -> 10:30.160] I think it's good,
[10:30.160 -> 10:32.760] mantras are great for enforcing a mindset.
[10:32.760 -> 10:34.360] I catch the bus home, speak to my dad.
[10:34.360 -> 10:36.640] They said, I'll give you a chance the following week.
[10:36.640 -> 10:38.000] Following week, I get on the bus,
[10:38.000 -> 10:39.840] but I keep telling myself, time to get off the bus.
[10:39.840 -> 10:41.160] Just believe in yourself, time to get off the bus.
[10:41.160 -> 10:42.520] Believe in yourself.
[10:42.520 -> 10:44.080] Get to my bus stop and I go train
[10:44.080 -> 10:45.440] with the Bradford Bulls first team. So you've got off the bus, believe in yourself, get to my bus stop and I go train with the Bradford Bulls first team.
[10:45.440 -> 10:47.240] So you've got off the bus,
[10:47.240 -> 10:49.880] but you've still got the nerves, the apprehension.
[10:49.880 -> 10:51.160] What was that experience like?
[10:51.160 -> 10:53.800] So the experience for me wasn't as bad
[10:53.800 -> 10:54.920] as I thought it was going to be.
[10:54.920 -> 10:57.160] That's the overriding feeling from it.
[10:57.160 -> 10:58.680] You know, I'm nervous getting off the bus,
[10:58.680 -> 10:59.680] but I've made the first step.
[10:59.680 -> 11:01.040] I made the most difficult part of it,
[11:01.040 -> 11:01.860] I've got off the bus,
[11:01.860 -> 11:03.280] which means I'm going to train with them now.
[11:03.280 -> 11:09.120] And then whatever happens after that is a bonus. So I decided to slip my way in, be quiet, be respectful
[11:09.120 -> 11:14.800] and just train and try and do my best around everybody. And my feeling after the training
[11:14.800 -> 11:19.840] session was, I think I've learned a lesson in life there that you just need to believe in yourself
[11:19.840 -> 11:25.940] and you've done the right thing. And I had more satisfaction with taking the more difficult option than the easy one,
[11:25.940 -> 11:27.320] walking away from that.
[11:27.320 -> 11:29.720] And at that point, 19 years old,
[11:29.720 -> 11:31.720] I think it'd be too much to say,
[11:31.720 -> 11:33.480] I said to myself, that's a great life lesson.
[11:33.480 -> 11:34.320] But as you look back on it,
[11:34.320 -> 11:36.440] you think it is a great life lesson.
[11:36.440 -> 11:39.240] What showed to me was that with big challenges
[11:39.240 -> 11:41.000] comes self doubt that should do.
[11:41.000 -> 11:42.960] No one's ever taken a great challenge
[11:42.960 -> 11:47.560] and 100% said to himself, I'm absolutely gonna nail this. That's the reason why we have big
[11:47.560 -> 11:51.640] challenges because there's a doubt of whether you can do it or not, but the
[11:51.640 -> 11:55.720] first step in doing it is believing in yourself and that's what I learned that
[11:55.720 -> 11:58.680] day. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be, I think that's what always
[11:58.680 -> 12:02.880] happens when we're front up to big fears and that basically is what courage is
[12:02.880 -> 12:05.360] isn't it? I think courage is fronting up to fear.
[12:05.360 -> 12:09.440] It's about leaning into it rather than taking the easy option like I did the first time round.
[12:10.000 -> 12:14.720] So tell us then about when you go in there the second and the third and the fourth time because
[12:14.720 -> 12:19.840] you're going into a culture as well for people that don't remember that era that was a pretty
[12:19.840 -> 12:26.480] hard-nosed winning successful culture. So you going in at 19 as a relative novice
[12:26.480 -> 12:30.040] must have been like, again, scaling Everest.
[12:30.040 -> 12:31.880] Yeah, for me personally, it was my own Everest.
[12:31.880 -> 12:33.080] We all have our own Everest.
[12:33.080 -> 12:36.320] And I think for me, I was probably self-aware enough
[12:36.320 -> 12:38.880] to know that I have to be quiet.
[12:38.880 -> 12:41.680] I have to fit in and I have to try be respectful of first.
[12:41.680 -> 12:43.040] You know, I have to earn my stripes.
[12:43.040 -> 12:44.960] I have to earn the respect of these players first
[12:44.960 -> 12:48.120] because I'm basically a nobody, 19 year old, has come
[12:48.120 -> 12:51.960] from the amateur and been given a chance. So what I'm going to do, I'm just going to
[12:51.960 -> 12:55.520] work really hard because everyone seems to be working hard here. I know in Rugby League
[12:55.520 -> 12:59.840] that's almost like an essential part of it. And I know I can bring that, I can bring hard
[12:59.840 -> 13:04.240] work. I'm not skillful as these players, not in a million years, but I can work as hard
[13:04.240 -> 13:06.720] as them, I can give 100% and be enthusiastic.
[13:06.720 -> 13:08.440] So that's what I brought to it.
[13:08.440 -> 13:12.360] And I think that attitude over a period of days, weeks,
[13:12.360 -> 13:15.200] and months endeared me to some of the most senior players
[13:15.200 -> 13:16.400] within that team.
[13:16.400 -> 13:19.240] Cause I remember there were other players who were my age
[13:19.240 -> 13:21.800] and got into the team, maybe a bit louder,
[13:21.800 -> 13:24.440] probably a bit bigger personalities than me.
[13:24.440 -> 13:28.320] The senior first team probably didn't engage as much
[13:28.320 -> 13:29.240] with them as they did with me,
[13:29.240 -> 13:31.960] or I'm not saying they sat next to me being my best mate,
[13:31.960 -> 13:33.000] but they give me respect.
[13:33.000 -> 13:34.800] And I think that's what you're trying to learn
[13:34.800 -> 13:37.200] for when you first go into that kind of
[13:37.200 -> 13:38.480] high performance environment, right?
[13:38.480 -> 13:39.920] You're at a respect from people.
[13:39.920 -> 13:42.800] And I thought to myself, I earn respect here
[13:42.800 -> 13:45.680] through knowing my place, working really hard
[13:45.680 -> 13:47.880] and just being respectful of myself to other people.
[13:47.880 -> 13:50.160] And I think that still being in good stead
[13:50.160 -> 13:51.600] with that group of players.
[13:51.600 -> 13:54.160] And that reminds me of when we interviewed on the podcast,
[13:54.160 -> 13:57.000] the chef Marcus Waring, and he spoke to us
[13:57.000 -> 13:59.960] around how he'd gone from Southport down to London
[13:59.960 -> 14:02.560] and he was working in Michelin star kitchens.
[14:02.560 -> 14:04.720] And the advice his dad had given was,
[14:04.720 -> 14:07.200] don't look for the average,
[14:07.200 -> 14:09.800] look for the best in that kitchen
[14:09.800 -> 14:10.960] and go and hang around with them
[14:10.960 -> 14:12.360] because you hang around with them,
[14:12.360 -> 14:13.480] you'll learn the good habits.
[14:13.480 -> 14:16.680] So who was it that you were quietly watching
[14:16.680 -> 14:17.520] when you first went in?
[14:17.520 -> 14:20.120] That's great advice from his dad, brilliant advice.
[14:20.120 -> 14:21.600] I mean, I definitely saw that.
[14:21.600 -> 14:30.400] So there's a couple of players, probably three or four, four I would say there was you know, Brian McDermott, James Laws, Bernard Dwight, Mike Foreshaw
[14:30.400 -> 14:33.280] And I watched these players and they were skillful
[14:33.360 -> 14:38.140] But they would always be into doing extras or if they played and weren't happy with the game
[14:38.140 -> 14:42.360] They'd be the first one in the gym on the rower. They'd be training harder than anybody else
[14:42.360 -> 14:44.440] They give 100% in whatever they did
[14:44.680 -> 14:45.140] They look like winners in the team and I could tell they were the most respected within the team they'd be training harder than anybody else, they give 100% in whatever they did.
[14:45.140 -> 14:46.360] They look like winners in the team,
[14:46.360 -> 14:48.160] and I could tell they were the most respected
[14:48.160 -> 14:50.800] within the team because of how hard they worked.
[14:50.800 -> 14:53.120] Jimmy Laws, you know, super skillful player,
[14:53.120 -> 14:54.920] but the other three, I don't think they'll mind me saying
[14:54.920 -> 14:56.940] that they were averagely skillful,
[14:56.940 -> 14:59.760] but, you know, super in hard work, effort,
[14:59.760 -> 15:01.840] and enthusiasm, and endeavour, and grit.
[15:01.840 -> 15:03.960] And I always watched skillful players,
[15:03.960 -> 15:05.640] and I thought,'m really going to struggle
[15:05.640 -> 15:07.540] to replicate what they're doing.
[15:07.540 -> 15:10.320] But for me, the grit and hard work
[15:10.320 -> 15:12.240] and working harder than anybody else,
[15:12.240 -> 15:13.120] that's a choice again.
[15:13.120 -> 15:15.720] So if that's a choice, I can make that choice
[15:15.720 -> 15:16.960] and I can make a difference.
[15:16.960 -> 15:18.940] So being around them, I feel fortunate now
[15:18.940 -> 15:20.640] when I look back on my career,
[15:20.640 -> 15:22.200] when I get asked who had the most influence,
[15:22.200 -> 15:24.440] I would say that kind of group of players
[15:24.440 -> 15:28.320] because I learned through their behaviors how to maximize what
[15:28.320 -> 15:33.320] talent I had and where potentially I could get in front of players who had
[15:33.320 -> 15:38.120] more natural rugby IQ and talent than myself. So what was the first time in
[15:38.120 -> 15:43.360] that culture then that you truly felt accepted or that you belonged? When Jimmy
[15:43.360 -> 15:45.960] Laws was the hooker and Jimmy used to pass you the ball,
[15:45.960 -> 15:47.040] in the games, right?
[15:47.040 -> 15:48.760] Because Jimmy passed the ball to the people
[15:48.760 -> 15:50.200] who respected him more often than not
[15:50.200 -> 15:52.400] and he'd give it to you in the good situations.
[15:52.400 -> 15:53.640] He was rarely the captain of the team.
[15:53.640 -> 15:54.720] Robert Paul was captain of the team,
[15:54.720 -> 15:56.120] he was a great player too,
[15:56.120 -> 15:58.800] but Jimmy was like the emotional heart of the team,
[15:58.800 -> 15:59.960] the beating heart of the team.
[15:59.960 -> 16:03.680] And for me, I felt like when he was giving the ball
[16:03.680 -> 16:06.840] and other players were talking to me like I was a peer
[16:06.840 -> 16:08.240] rather than a 19 year old,
[16:08.240 -> 16:11.240] but that's generally when you feel accepted within there
[16:11.240 -> 16:14.760] and you think, you know what, I've not made it here,
[16:14.760 -> 16:16.000] but I'm doing the right things.
[16:16.000 -> 16:17.760] You know, whatever I'm doing at training
[16:17.760 -> 16:20.240] or my attitude I'm bringing to training
[16:20.240 -> 16:23.520] means that these now respect me in what I do.
[16:23.520 -> 16:24.760] So for me, that was it.
[16:24.760 -> 16:25.040] And I always prided on myself. And what I do. So for me, that was it.
[16:25.040 -> 16:26.520] And I always prided on myself.
[16:26.520 -> 16:28.820] And when I got into the first team,
[16:28.820 -> 16:31.660] I thought I'm just going to do all those pieces of action
[16:31.660 -> 16:33.060] that don't require talent, you know,
[16:33.060 -> 16:34.680] you just require effort to do that.
[16:34.680 -> 16:36.560] And I thought I can, I can ace these.
[16:36.560 -> 16:37.680] And I, well, give us some examples.
[16:37.680 -> 16:40.160] Just for example, so in rugby league,
[16:40.160 -> 16:41.900] if you're defending your own try line,
[16:41.900 -> 16:44.320] so you're all tired, you've been defending four, five,
[16:44.320 -> 16:46.200] six sets, four, five, six tackles. Remember everyone's been involved. It's high intensity because you're stopping your own trial line, so you're all tired, you've been defending four, five, six sets, four, five, six tackles,
[16:46.200 -> 16:47.200] remember everyone's been involved,
[16:47.200 -> 16:48.440] it's high intensity because you're stopping them
[16:48.440 -> 16:51.040] from scoring, they're quite close to your trial line.
[16:51.040 -> 16:53.320] They kick through, ball goes over,
[16:53.320 -> 16:55.440] so we get the ball back, tap on the 20,
[16:55.440 -> 16:57.600] being the first person there to take that carry,
[16:57.600 -> 16:59.360] that's an effort area for me,
[16:59.360 -> 17:02.240] or say we get the ball turned over
[17:02.240 -> 17:04.200] five metres out from our trial line,
[17:04.200 -> 17:05.440] five metres out from touchline,
[17:05.440 -> 17:09.960] the opposition are all frothing at the mouth trying to get up as quick as you can. Well,
[17:09.960 -> 17:14.480] I can make the decision to take the ball there. All that takes is just a bit of courage and knowing
[17:14.480 -> 17:18.000] I'm probably going to get hurt, but it's doing the right thing by the team. And the more that
[17:18.000 -> 17:23.080] you make those decisions to do that, the more people respect you because lots of people have
[17:23.080 -> 17:25.520] talent in rugby, but to really push yourself to
[17:26.080 -> 17:30.720] get into a situation where you can get hurt when you're physically tired, I think it's a skill in
[17:30.720 -> 17:36.000] itself. And I thought that they're like areas that I can be good at over other people. And that starts
[17:36.000 -> 17:39.280] off with, you can only do that if you train really hard because you need to be fitter than other
[17:39.280 -> 17:47.720] players. So let's go into that decision-making then, because I think I've said this to you before, over the 150 plus episodes on this podcast,
[17:47.720 -> 17:48.700] people won't know this,
[17:48.700 -> 17:51.360] but I've been quoting you indirectly
[17:51.360 -> 17:54.280] based on having been lucky enough to work with you
[17:54.280 -> 17:56.520] and understand your approach to life.
[17:56.520 -> 18:00.000] So I talk about dividing life up into easy
[18:00.000 -> 18:01.100] and hard decisions.
[18:01.100 -> 18:03.840] And I wanna shamelessly say, I've stolen that from you.
[18:03.840 -> 18:07.400] So tell us about your decision-making and how you divide them up.
[18:07.400 -> 18:14.600] Dabbing on that I've stolen a lot of ideas from you. So I think, yeah you're equal, it's really nice of you to say that.
[18:14.600 -> 18:20.060] Look, I mean for me, I think in our lives most moments we get into we have an
[18:20.060 -> 18:23.400] hard or an easy decision. For example, getting off the bus that's really
[18:23.400 -> 18:25.040] definite, it's a really definite one,
[18:25.040 -> 18:26.680] but I think we have lots of those all the time
[18:26.680 -> 18:27.520] within our lives.
[18:27.520 -> 18:29.600] So a decision that might be a little bit more difficult
[18:29.600 -> 18:31.520] to do, or one that's a little bit easier to do.
[18:31.520 -> 18:34.440] So for example, when I used to go running,
[18:34.440 -> 18:36.160] I'd always make a decision as a player
[18:36.160 -> 18:37.320] and not to have any music on,
[18:37.320 -> 18:40.520] because when I'm playing, no one's playing Rocky to me,
[18:40.520 -> 18:41.880] and no one's making it any easier to me.
[18:41.880 -> 18:44.440] So why would I want to run with any music on?
[18:44.440 -> 18:46.400] Because that's just an easier decision. I'm making it easier for myself me so why would I want to run with any music on because that's just an
[18:44.960 -> 18:48.640] easier decision I'm making it easier for
[18:46.400 -> 18:50.320] myself but those little decisions are
[18:48.640 -> 18:52.400] all around our lives you know whether
[18:50.320 -> 18:54.800] we want to decide to get fast food or not
[18:52.400 -> 18:55.680] or make the say we have a drink we're
[18:54.800 -> 18:56.800] hungover
[18:55.680 -> 18:58.000] next day we've always got two
[18:56.800 -> 18:59.760] decisions do we cook something
[18:58.000 -> 19:02.560] healthier or do we get on delivery
[18:59.760 -> 19:04.640] and I think the more decisions in our
[19:02.560 -> 19:07.200] life that we make hard decisions
[19:04.640 -> 19:07.120] I think how easier our lives become but I think the more decisions in our life that we make hard decisions, I think how easier our lives become.
[19:07.120 -> 19:09.720] But I think the more easy decisions we make,
[19:09.720 -> 19:13.800] the harder our lives become on the compound impact of those.
[19:13.800 -> 19:16.200] And I think those decisions are done day to day.
[19:16.200 -> 19:21.080] And I think as well that the bigger chain you build up
[19:21.080 -> 19:24.520] of hard decisions, they almost become easier to make
[19:24.520 -> 19:28.240] because they just become you as a person along the way.
[19:28.240 -> 19:32.320] And I think it's that really thinking to yourself,
[19:32.320 -> 19:34.600] which is gonna be most beneficial for me,
[19:34.600 -> 19:36.960] probably the hardest one to do right now,
[19:36.960 -> 19:39.760] but do this a few times, few days in a row,
[19:39.760 -> 19:42.920] then I'll get to the point where this is just a way,
[19:42.920 -> 19:44.920] it's not even a decision anymore, it just happens.
[19:44.920 -> 19:46.000] And I think that's the key.
[19:46.000 -> 19:49.160] Give us some insights then into you now as an elite player
[19:49.160 -> 19:50.920] that you established at Bradford,
[19:50.920 -> 19:54.160] you go on to be successful at Leeds.
[19:54.160 -> 19:56.320] What were the kind of habits,
[19:56.320 -> 19:59.100] the hard decisions that you were making every day
[19:59.100 -> 20:00.520] that now you look back on it,
[20:00.520 -> 20:02.120] you go, actually they were essential?
[20:02.120 -> 20:04.320] Yeah, I mean, they're all around you.
[20:04.320 -> 20:06.080] It's really definite as a professional sports person, I think the hard and easy decisions. back on it you go actually they were essential. Yeah I mean they're all
[20:03.440 -> 20:07.840] around you it's really definite as a
[20:06.080 -> 20:09.880] professional sports person I think the
[20:07.840 -> 20:11.880] hard and easy decision so look an
[20:09.880 -> 20:13.280] example would be in professional
[20:11.880 -> 20:15.480] rugby league being fit's a non-negotiable
[20:13.280 -> 20:17.120] part of it which means we do a lot of
[20:15.480 -> 20:19.120] fitness training which means we do a
[20:17.120 -> 20:21.640] lot of running to cones yeah and lots of
[20:19.120 -> 20:23.600] people make an easy decision to pull up
[20:21.640 -> 20:25.720] one meter short or two meters short from
[20:23.600 -> 20:25.760] the cone and you well, that don't matter,
[20:25.760 -> 20:26.680] just doing it once.
[20:26.680 -> 20:30.680] But you count that up over a training session,
[20:30.680 -> 20:32.600] over a week, over a season,
[20:32.600 -> 20:34.880] that's just not one step you're cheating on,
[20:34.880 -> 20:37.160] that's thousands of steps you're cheating on.
[20:37.160 -> 20:39.240] So for me, I think a hard decision
[20:39.240 -> 20:41.440] is to always kind of run to that cone
[20:41.440 -> 20:43.080] and then always kind of sprint back.
[20:43.080 -> 20:45.320] And that's the decision that I can make.
[20:45.320 -> 20:48.840] And observing players, I think in my career
[20:48.840 -> 20:52.840] only probably 5% of players consistently get to the cone
[20:52.840 -> 20:54.840] and make that decision to do that.
[20:54.840 -> 20:57.800] When some of the decisions I would make was like,
[20:57.800 -> 21:01.040] for example, in the probably back six years of my career,
[21:01.040 -> 21:03.300] I'd always have an ice bath at home after training.
[21:03.300 -> 21:05.360] There's lots of friction to stop you from doing it. Right, got to get up, got to find some ice, got to bring it back, put it in my career, I'd always have an ice bath at home after training. There's lots of
[21:03.600 -> 21:07.520] friction to stop you from doing it,
[21:05.360 -> 21:09.440] right? Gotta get up, gotta find some ice, gotta
[21:07.520 -> 21:11.040] bring it back, put it in my freezer, gotta
[21:09.440 -> 21:13.120] wait till night time, gotta run the bath,
[21:11.040 -> 21:14.960] rather go to sleep and get an ice bath.
[21:13.120 -> 21:17.360] But there's lots of little decisions
[21:14.960 -> 21:18.480] around there that are like micro hard ones and
[21:17.360 -> 21:20.640] you've got the final one, getting a
[21:18.480 -> 21:23.920] bath of ice for 10 minutes. But I firmly
[21:20.640 -> 21:26.880] believe doing that consistently allow me
[21:23.920 -> 21:26.120] to age 36, 37 and 38,
[21:26.120 -> 21:27.680] I'm gonna play my best rugby.
[21:27.680 -> 21:30.160] And I think they're consistent decisions that we can make.
[21:30.160 -> 21:32.640] And I think if you really think about your own job
[21:32.640 -> 21:35.260] and your own performance, if you're self-aware enough,
[21:35.260 -> 21:37.480] you quite easily recognize the easy
[21:37.480 -> 21:39.120] and hard decision you can make.
[21:39.120 -> 21:40.380] You know, like I think a hard decision
[21:40.380 -> 21:41.560] for a lot of people these days
[21:41.560 -> 21:43.560] is probably switching off from work.
[21:43.560 -> 21:47.220] I think the easy decision sometimes is to like keep a laptop on, not being
[21:47.220 -> 21:50.800] particularly productive, but the hard decision is to turn it off, go for a walk
[21:50.800 -> 21:54.660] and then spend some time with your family. Those decisions are around us all
[21:54.660 -> 21:58.140] the time, but particularly in professional sport I think they're very
[21:58.140 -> 22:02.020] recognisable, they're very definite and they certainly add up over time.
[22:02.020 -> 22:05.440] You've been retired now for a few years. Yeah.
[22:05.440 -> 22:07.720] But those habits now, you said,
[22:07.720 -> 22:10.040] they just become part of your identity, who you are.
[22:10.040 -> 22:13.500] So what are the kind of habits that you adopted
[22:13.500 -> 22:14.760] when you were an elite athlete
[22:14.760 -> 22:17.520] that you're using now in this second life?
[22:17.520 -> 22:19.440] I think first of all, it's getting up early.
[22:19.440 -> 22:21.640] I still get up early and I train every morning.
[22:21.640 -> 22:23.680] I think it's really essential for me.
[22:23.680 -> 22:26.120] Having two pints of water in the it's really essential for me. Having two
[22:24.200 -> 22:28.400] pints of water in the morning is
[22:26.120 -> 22:30.320] essential part for me. Always delivering
[22:28.400 -> 22:33.000] on my word I think that's a big thing for
[22:30.320 -> 22:34.480] me now. Making sure I write to-do list
[22:33.000 -> 22:36.480] before I go to bed, making sure I finish
[22:34.480 -> 22:38.400] that to-do list. I think in the best
[22:36.480 -> 22:40.360] teams I've worked in people always
[22:38.400 -> 22:42.440] deliver on the word. When I went into the
[22:40.360 -> 22:44.200] real world a bit I was amazed by how many
[22:42.440 -> 22:46.120] people just don't understand the
[22:44.200 -> 22:46.140] concept of if you say I'm gonna do something and they're not actually doing it. went into the real world a bit. I was amazed by how many people just don't understand the
[22:44.220 -> 22:47.980] concept of if you say I'm gonna do
[22:46.140 -> 22:49.840] something and then I'm actually doing it.
[22:47.980 -> 22:51.580] So how do you handle that? Because it
[22:49.840 -> 22:52.860] must be a frustration for you. Yeah it's a
[22:51.580 -> 22:54.700] frustration, it sure is a
[22:52.860 -> 22:56.900] frustration but I think you've just
[22:54.700 -> 22:58.660] got to just gently poke people with it.
[22:56.900 -> 23:00.300] You know saying can you get back to me
[22:58.660 -> 23:02.540] on this, you said you'd do that, it's about
[23:00.300 -> 23:04.460] that. You've got to be like someone told me
[23:02.540 -> 23:06.020] the steel fist in a velvet glove,
[23:04.460 -> 23:06.560] you've just got to, you've got to be like someone told me, the steel fist in a velvet glove. You've just got to tell the truth,
[23:06.560 -> 23:08.360] but you have to be a little bit different
[23:08.360 -> 23:11.680] how you do it within a rugby field as well.
[23:11.680 -> 23:14.880] One other thing I think, which I would take from my career,
[23:14.880 -> 23:18.040] which I do do now, certainly in games,
[23:18.040 -> 23:22.200] is I think in life, we all make mistakes.
[23:22.200 -> 23:23.200] We all make errors.
[23:23.200 -> 23:26.600] We all make, take an easy decision from time to time.
[23:26.600 -> 23:29.480] We're human beings, nobody's perfect.
[23:29.480 -> 23:31.680] But I think the biggest thing that I believe,
[23:31.680 -> 23:33.080] and I've certainly did this on a rugby pitch,
[23:33.080 -> 23:35.800] was never doubling up, should never double up on errors.
[23:35.800 -> 23:38.840] So let's say I drop a ball in a game,
[23:38.840 -> 23:40.600] then for me, it'd be a cardinal sin
[23:40.600 -> 23:41.780] to do that again in the game.
[23:41.780 -> 23:43.640] And I try and go for a run of 10 games
[23:43.640 -> 23:44.840] without dropping a ball.
[23:44.840 -> 23:46.280] If I miss a tackle,
[23:46.280 -> 23:48.440] then I'm going to try and go the full game
[23:48.440 -> 23:49.920] without missing a tackle.
[23:49.920 -> 23:54.920] So for me, the doubling up on errors and mistakes in life,
[23:55.200 -> 23:57.320] I think it's just key because we all have blips,
[23:57.320 -> 23:59.200] you know, you might have a blip where you don't go
[23:59.200 -> 24:01.480] to the gym where you don't want to,
[24:01.480 -> 24:02.840] you miss it because you're tired.
[24:02.840 -> 24:09.600] You go eat some fast food instead of doing something healthy. You know, you stay up watching Netflix instead of going to bed. That's all right on its
[24:09.600 -> 24:15.520] own I think, you know, when it's a blip, but then if we compound that and do it again, that for me
[24:15.520 -> 24:20.400] is heading you in the wrong direction, you're compounding something else. So that's been huge
[24:20.400 -> 24:25.920] for me I reckon that, and that mindset really came from a lesson I learned,
[24:25.920 -> 24:28.320] I reckon in 2000 in Huddersfield,
[24:28.320 -> 24:32.360] I was playing for the Bradford Bulls against Huddersfield.
[24:32.360 -> 24:34.800] And I dropped two balls in a row.
[24:34.800 -> 24:37.340] And then I got the warning, do that again and you're off.
[24:37.340 -> 24:39.760] And then I went down the smallest short side,
[24:39.760 -> 24:42.280] which you would believe, you know, it's like a blind side.
[24:42.280 -> 24:44.820] There was about two meters and I got dragged into touch.
[24:44.820 -> 24:46.820] Next thing I know, I'm off, sat on the bench
[24:46.820 -> 24:48.780] and I'm pretty pissed with myself.
[24:48.780 -> 24:49.620] But when you're a bit younger,
[24:49.620 -> 24:50.700] you want to blame other people.
[24:50.700 -> 24:51.800] I'm thinking it's not my fault.
[24:51.800 -> 24:53.380] But then after a while you think,
[24:53.380 -> 24:55.700] well, what can I do better about this next time?
[24:55.700 -> 24:57.980] And I thought to myself, everybody makes a mistake,
[24:57.980 -> 24:59.460] you know, even the best players I play with
[24:59.460 -> 25:00.620] and make mistakes,
[25:00.620 -> 25:02.780] but it's that doubling up that you just can't do.
[25:02.780 -> 25:03.620] You just can't do that.
[25:03.620 -> 25:05.200] If you want to be an elite player,
[25:05.200 -> 25:06.600] you're going to have mistakes from time to time.
[25:06.600 -> 25:07.420] You're going to make errors.
[25:07.420 -> 25:10.080] No one plays a perfect game, but the ones I watch,
[25:10.080 -> 25:12.720] they don't compound them, they don't double them up.
[25:12.720 -> 25:14.840] And I think it's a really good kind of attitude
[25:14.840 -> 25:17.320] to have with everything we do in life.
[25:17.320 -> 25:19.320] So let's zero in on that then,
[25:19.320 -> 25:22.140] because like you say, we all make mistakes.
[25:22.140 -> 25:26.600] Take us into your head when you've just dropped a
[25:24.560 -> 25:28.760] ball. What do you do to move on from that
[25:26.600 -> 25:31.320] and get yourself into that mindset of
[25:28.760 -> 25:33.160] I'm gonna get nail it next time?
[25:31.320 -> 25:34.760] So I think to myself, right, I have to start thinking
[25:33.160 -> 25:36.600] positively, get rid of all negative
[25:34.760 -> 25:38.120] thoughts and for me it's to get my hands
[25:36.600 -> 25:39.680] on the ball as soon as possible. So to
[25:38.120 -> 25:42.400] get it completely out of my mind straight
[25:39.680 -> 25:45.040] away. So if I dropped it in say tackle
[25:42.400 -> 25:50.080] two, we get six tackles in rugby league I really try to make sure the next time in that set, you know the next 30 seconds
[25:50.080 -> 25:52.920] I get to touch the ball again, which is a bit weird in rugby league
[25:52.920 -> 25:55.560] You only touch it normally once once a set not twice a set
[25:55.560 -> 26:02.200] So for me, it's about shooting out negative thoughts and then taking yourself forward with a positive action straight away off the back of it
[26:02.200 -> 26:05.440] To go back out where you just made that mistake and for me that allowed me then to move on from action straight away off the back of it is to go back out where you just made that mistake.
[26:05.440 -> 26:07.800] And for me, that allowed me then to move on
[26:07.800 -> 26:08.640] from it straight away.
[26:08.640 -> 26:10.260] So say I missed a tackle,
[26:10.260 -> 26:13.180] the next tackle I'd make no matter what, you know,
[26:13.180 -> 26:16.300] if my life depended on it, I'd make that tackle.
[26:16.300 -> 26:17.580] That leads us into the area then
[26:17.580 -> 26:19.940] of the phrase psychological safety,
[26:19.940 -> 26:23.180] that in high performing cultures,
[26:23.180 -> 26:25.840] you have a sense of mistakes happen but people own
[26:25.840 -> 26:30.460] them and then you can learn from them so much faster in poor performing cultures
[26:30.460 -> 26:33.560] where you don't feel safe enough to say that was my fault.
[26:33.560 -> 26:38.220] Nobody learns because it's always pointing the finger and blaming. So tell
[26:38.220 -> 26:42.680] us about you've been part of the Bradford and then the Leeds success
[26:42.680 -> 26:45.760] story. Tell us how important psychological safety was.
[26:45.760 -> 26:47.880] I've not heard that before, psychological safety,
[26:47.880 -> 26:50.880] but I absolutely believe in that 100%.
[26:50.880 -> 26:53.320] And I think at the Rhinos,
[26:53.320 -> 26:55.880] we had a great environment that people would own up to things.
[26:55.880 -> 26:58.800] No one had to bit of shirk it, no one to point the finger.
[26:58.800 -> 27:00.800] We might do, some people might do initially,
[27:00.800 -> 27:01.960] but then they do own it afterwards.
[27:01.960 -> 27:03.280] You know, sometimes you have that, don't you?
[27:03.280 -> 27:05.440] You have a bit of pride, but then you don't afterwards. You know, sometimes you have that, don't you? You have a bit of pride,
[27:05.440 -> 27:07.880] but then you don't it again straight after that.
[27:07.880 -> 27:11.220] I think a really good example of not being able to do this,
[27:11.220 -> 27:13.440] I think happened to us in the 2008 World Cup,
[27:13.440 -> 27:15.480] because I always look back on that now.
[27:15.480 -> 27:20.480] And I think the rivalry we have between Leeds and Saints,
[27:21.100 -> 27:24.760] we underestimated how deep and bitter that rivalry was.
[27:24.760 -> 27:27.240] And I think that deep and bitter rivalry,
[27:27.240 -> 27:28.960] I believe led to an environment
[27:28.960 -> 27:31.560] where nobody wanted to show any weakness.
[27:31.560 -> 27:33.520] Nobody from Saints wanted to show any weakness
[27:33.520 -> 27:34.840] to the Rhinos players.
[27:34.840 -> 27:36.680] And I knew for a fact, right,
[27:36.680 -> 27:38.440] that I didn't want to show any weakness
[27:38.440 -> 27:39.360] to the Saints players.
[27:39.360 -> 27:40.440] Because for three years,
[27:40.440 -> 27:42.160] we've just been the most bitter rivals,
[27:42.160 -> 27:44.880] you know, brutal, horrible rivalry,
[27:44.880 -> 27:46.120] great rivalry for sport.
[27:46.120 -> 27:48.160] And I look back on my time now,
[27:48.160 -> 27:50.560] and you know, if I could change one thing,
[27:50.560 -> 27:53.480] I go back and just be more vulnerable and just go,
[27:53.480 -> 27:54.440] do you know what?
[27:54.440 -> 27:57.280] I don't care about the Leeds Saints rivalry.
[27:57.280 -> 28:00.000] I made that mistake and I'm going to make mistakes.
[28:00.000 -> 28:02.800] And I don't know the answer to this.
[28:02.800 -> 28:03.640] You know, when we're in a video,
[28:03.640 -> 28:05.440] I don't know the answer to it. You know, when we're in a video, I don't know the answer to it.
[28:05.440 -> 28:08.560] And that for me, that psychological safety,
[28:08.560 -> 28:11.000] I think was missing from that England World Cup team
[28:11.000 -> 28:13.920] because not because players are arrogant,
[28:13.920 -> 28:17.080] not because players have got big egos.
[28:17.080 -> 28:19.520] I think it was missing because of a bit of rivalry
[28:19.520 -> 28:22.720] between the two, because we just did not want to show
[28:22.720 -> 28:24.640] or budge an inch or blink.
[28:24.640 -> 28:25.440] It was like a staring contest.
[28:25.440 -> 28:26.720] We didn't want to blink.
[28:26.720 -> 28:29.240] Whereas, you know, the opposite was that,
[28:29.240 -> 28:32.480] I imagine the Saints, when they're with themselves,
[28:32.480 -> 28:33.560] they can all own up to it.
[28:33.560 -> 28:36.000] And when we're certainly at the Rhinos,
[28:36.840 -> 28:38.880] no one had any problem owning up to mistakes,
[28:38.880 -> 28:41.000] you know, admitting to problems.
[28:41.000 -> 28:43.600] And I think we often won grand finals
[28:43.600 -> 28:46.440] because the team was really kind of ego-less,
[28:46.440 -> 28:49.000] that no one was really bothered who got the credit.
[28:49.000 -> 28:50.880] Everybody knew what they had to do
[28:50.880 -> 28:52.640] and they just gave themselves up to the team
[28:52.640 -> 28:54.800] and what they wanted to do.
[28:54.800 -> 28:57.640] Bring the best version of yourself for the team within it.
[28:57.640 -> 28:59.960] And I think just massively helped us.
[28:59.960 -> 29:02.680] And I think if you look at the core of the leaders
[29:02.680 -> 29:04.720] within that team, I think, yeah,
[29:04.720 -> 29:06.600] we've got pride in our performance.
[29:06.600 -> 29:09.360] You know, that is a bit of ego, pride in how well you play,
[29:09.360 -> 29:10.840] but it doesn't override the fact
[29:10.840 -> 29:12.400] that you have to give yourself up to the group
[29:12.400 -> 29:14.520] and you have to commit to a certain number of actions
[29:14.520 -> 29:17.160] that are gonna be more beneficial to the group
[29:17.160 -> 29:18.640] than they're gonna be of benefit to you.
[29:18.640 -> 29:21.680] And I think we got that right balance with the Rhinos.
[29:21.680 -> 29:22.720] So tell us about that,
[29:22.720 -> 29:26.840] because this is always an intriguing
[29:24.800 -> 29:29.240] part of your story when I think about it
[29:26.840 -> 29:31.160] that you've gone from being one of the
[29:29.240 -> 29:34.240] big dogs at Bradford to then going into
[29:31.160 -> 29:37.160] Leeds as like a big sign in a lot of
[29:34.240 -> 29:39.120] noise around you arriving and yet you're
[29:37.160 -> 29:41.560] going into quite a strong culture
[29:39.120 -> 29:43.520] already and you're not gonna be the
[29:41.560 -> 29:45.480] captain, you've already got established
[29:43.520 -> 29:46.640] leaders in there. So when you talk about an ego-less group,
[29:46.640 -> 29:48.240] you've obviously had to do something there
[29:48.240 -> 29:51.560] to subsume your own ego to go into it.
[29:51.560 -> 29:54.720] I knew going in that it was gonna be a different culture,
[29:54.720 -> 29:58.640] but I had no ambitions whatsoever on being captain.
[29:58.640 -> 30:01.720] I wanted to go in and just collaborate
[30:01.720 -> 30:03.400] with Kev Sintheodder as a captain,
[30:03.400 -> 30:05.120] collaborate with the other leaders
[30:05.120 -> 30:07.940] and bring my version of leadership
[30:07.940 -> 30:10.760] and hopefully it compliment everybody else's.
[30:10.760 -> 30:13.760] Captains is a title, you know, I'm not interested in that.
[30:13.760 -> 30:16.880] I'm interested in being able to lead the group
[30:16.880 -> 30:19.200] with the other leaders in the best way possible
[30:19.200 -> 30:21.240] and add into what they've got already.
[30:21.240 -> 30:22.640] And if we can do that, we can win.
[30:22.640 -> 30:25.820] If I'm going into that group 2006 and thinking,
[30:25.820 -> 30:29.460] I wanna be captain and it's just a total wrong thing to do.
[30:29.460 -> 30:32.060] It just goes against my values as a person.
[30:32.060 -> 30:34.780] And I think if you use me and Kev as an example,
[30:34.780 -> 30:36.780] I think we both tell each other beautifully,
[30:36.780 -> 30:40.040] you know, so I'm quite emotional and like,
[30:40.040 -> 30:41.580] let's just do this, let's get this done.
[30:41.580 -> 30:45.280] I'm all plus with detail where Kev is like methodical
[30:45.280 -> 30:46.680] and detail-oriented.
[30:46.680 -> 30:49.520] And I think the power of us both together
[30:49.520 -> 30:52.160] and not having any ego about it was just huge
[30:52.160 -> 30:53.480] for us and the team.
[30:53.480 -> 30:56.000] I think, and then we've got all the other leaders round us
[30:56.000 -> 31:00.400] who all contribute, who all behave, you know, for example,
[31:00.400 -> 31:02.360] working exceptionally hard along the way.
[31:02.360 -> 31:04.240] I think it was just powerful.
[31:04.240 -> 31:08.400] And I think when I look back now, I think when you're in it sometimes you don't realise it,
[31:08.400 -> 31:12.200] and then when you look back, you think, you know, shit, that was a good group to work
[31:12.200 -> 31:14.720] with, you know, eagerly.
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[32:56.160 -> 33:00.520] And what you've also tapped into there is that power of the cognitive diversity
[33:00.520 -> 33:07.560] that you bring your strength of emotion and impulsiveness, Kev
[33:04.560 -> 33:09.440] brings methodical, karma, diligence.
[33:07.560 -> 33:11.560] What were the other roles in that
[33:09.440 -> 33:14.400] group that you think helped make it such
[33:11.560 -> 33:16.360] a powerful culture? I think you are
[33:14.400 -> 33:17.800] probably a number of other players so who
[33:16.360 -> 33:20.520] else would you put in there? You put
[33:17.800 -> 33:24.040] someone like Rob Burrows in, Danny Maguire,
[33:20.520 -> 33:26.440] Kylie Luwai, Jamie Jones, Gareth
[33:24.040 -> 33:25.000] Ellis, Keith Senior at times in there. Danny Maguire, Kylie Lulawai, Jimmy Jones, Garrafalis,
[33:25.040 -> 33:27.400] Keith Senior at times in there.
[33:27.400 -> 33:29.160] We just seemed to have a conveyor belt
[33:29.160 -> 33:32.040] of other players who were coming
[33:32.040 -> 33:33.840] and they would contribute in their own way.
[33:33.840 -> 33:37.160] And they weren't bothered about being a captain.
[33:37.160 -> 33:39.040] They had no desires on being a captain,
[33:39.040 -> 33:40.920] but they could lead, they could be in a game
[33:40.920 -> 33:43.080] and they could lead or they say the right thing
[33:43.080 -> 33:45.200] or they do something that inspire people
[33:45.200 -> 33:46.760] or they were brought into hard work.
[33:46.760 -> 33:48.640] I think the group was a really exceptionally
[33:48.640 -> 33:50.040] hard working group.
[33:50.040 -> 33:51.640] In a team that's going to be a dynasty,
[33:51.640 -> 33:53.560] it's certainly rubbly, you can't have two people
[33:53.560 -> 33:57.840] out of the 25, 30 who exhibit great leadership behaviours.
[33:57.840 -> 33:59.840] Okay, you need like a kind of critical mass.
[33:59.840 -> 34:03.480] And I think once you get to seven or eight or nine,
[34:03.480 -> 34:06.480] I reckon that's enough to drag everybody else along,
[34:06.480 -> 34:08.080] go, look, these are the standards,
[34:08.080 -> 34:09.420] this is how it's gonna be.
[34:09.420 -> 34:11.760] We always had, through good signings,
[34:11.760 -> 34:14.160] you know, like Garofalo's coming in and out,
[34:14.160 -> 34:16.960] or players who've been there a long time,
[34:16.960 -> 34:18.980] that we just kept that critical mass
[34:18.980 -> 34:21.800] that could always listen to what the coach said,
[34:21.800 -> 34:23.880] worked exceptionally hard,
[34:23.880 -> 34:25.080] weren't bothered about their ego.
[34:25.080 -> 34:27.880] And I think having that continuous critical mass
[34:27.880 -> 34:29.600] allowed us to have continued success.
[34:29.600 -> 34:32.840] And I think you saw that as players began to retire
[34:32.840 -> 34:34.760] a bit at a time, that it became harder and harder
[34:34.760 -> 34:36.600] for the club to keep that up.
[34:36.600 -> 34:40.480] What kind of things would you do to integrate a new signing
[34:40.480 -> 34:42.920] into that culture to let them know that
[34:42.920 -> 34:44.200] you don't bring your ego in here,
[34:44.200 -> 34:47.520] you park it at the door and these are the standards? Give us some insights. newydd, ac yna i'r diwydiant hwnnw i gael iddyn nhw gwybod bod eich ego ddim yma, rydyn ni'n ei gylch yn y ddŵr ac mae hyn yn y standardau. Gadewch i ni rai sylw.
[34:47.520 -> 34:50.640] Ie, felly rwy'n credu mae'n ymwneud â'u dangos nhw drwy y ffordd rydych chi'n ymwneud â'r
[34:50.640 -> 34:54.400] ymgysylltiad, y gwybodaeth o'r ymgyrchu, y gwaith mwy o waith ar ôl y ymgyrchu,
[34:54.400 -> 34:57.440] dyma'r norm, ok? Pan fydd y ymgyrchu'n cael ei gynllunio, byddwn ni'n
[34:57.440 -> 35:00.080] mynd i wneud ychydig o'r rhan fwyaf. Rydyn ni'n eich gwneud eich bod chi'n ymgyrchu gyda hyn,
[35:00.080 -> 35:03.360] a ydych chi'n eisiau ymgyrchu i'r gwneud hyn? Gwneud siŵr bod y rhan ffyrdd o'r grwp yn
[35:03.360 -> 35:06.300] gwneud cymorth i gael gwybod o bobl, rwy'n credu, yw'n enwedig, i gael do you want to buy into doing this? Making sure the field part of the group, making an effort to get to know people, I think is huge.
[35:06.300 -> 35:08.880] You get to build good relationships with them.
[35:08.880 -> 35:10.700] But I think doing that, I think it's behavior.
[35:10.700 -> 35:13.620] What it'll boil down to is the way that behave
[35:13.620 -> 35:16.460] at training with like your work ethic,
[35:16.460 -> 35:19.900] but then also owning up to mistakes in a video review
[35:19.900 -> 35:21.260] or saying, do you know what, my fault.
[35:21.260 -> 35:23.500] I didn't mean to do that, but it's my fault.
[35:23.500 -> 35:27.400] And I think showing them that that's the norm norm and if you buy into this, we'll be
[35:27.400 -> 35:30.920] successful. If not, you'll have probably two or three years here, whatever your contract
[35:30.920 -> 35:34.640] says and you'll be looking elsewhere after that because everyone's kind of buying
[35:34.640 -> 35:38.600] it into the way you do it. And just, well, the time you've got to be direct with people and
[35:38.600 -> 35:42.480] tell them if they're not doing it, this is how we do it. So give us an example of that.
[35:42.480 -> 35:47.040] 2008, I think we were, our goal was to defend our title,
[35:47.040 -> 35:52.040] won it in 2007, but we were midway through 2008 season,
[35:52.200 -> 35:53.600] we're losing games, and one of the reasons
[35:53.600 -> 35:56.400] why we're losing games is back chatting to referees.
[35:56.400 -> 35:59.200] So back chatting to referees, not like football,
[35:59.200 -> 36:01.460] concede points, normally concede penalties,
[36:01.460 -> 36:03.900] but the reason why we're back chatting to referees was
[36:03.900 -> 36:06.340] when we simulate a game, at training,
[36:06.340 -> 36:08.520] we'd have a coach in the middle refereeing.
[36:08.520 -> 36:11.920] So the coach make a bad decision of a referee.
[36:11.920 -> 36:13.880] And you know what lads like at training,
[36:13.880 -> 36:15.760] taking a piss, having a go at him,
[36:15.760 -> 36:17.440] but without knowing they create an abet,
[36:17.440 -> 36:18.600] bad abet, which costs them this game.
[36:18.600 -> 36:20.040] So we lose another game.
[36:20.040 -> 36:22.800] We have a video review on the Monday about it.
[36:22.800 -> 36:24.800] And a coach points out this behavior and says,
[36:24.800 -> 36:25.760] look, it's got to stop.
[36:25.760 -> 36:27.080] And where it stops is in training.
[36:27.080 -> 36:28.520] You know, the reason why we back-challenge referees
[36:28.520 -> 36:29.640] in games is because we do it in training.
[36:29.640 -> 36:31.440] So it stops going forward, no one's allowed to do it.
[36:31.440 -> 36:32.400] Does everyone agree?
[36:32.400 -> 36:33.800] You know, it's like loads of nodding heads.
[36:33.800 -> 36:34.640] Does anyone disagree?
[36:34.640 -> 36:36.040] Room full of silence.
[36:36.040 -> 36:37.720] So we go downstairs, we start training.
[36:37.720 -> 36:38.920] We train for about 60 minutes,
[36:38.920 -> 36:40.960] then we get to our simulated game.
[36:40.960 -> 36:42.600] You know, five minutes into the simulated game,
[36:42.600 -> 36:44.000] one of our better players, actually,
[36:44.000 -> 36:48.800] one of our leaders that day, the coach who was referee made a bad decision and he started giving
[36:48.800 -> 36:53.040] him some verbal and like everyone hears it and I'm thinking, oh well, one of the assistant coach,
[36:53.040 -> 36:58.240] the head coach who picked this up, five seconds goes by, nothing, 10 seconds goes by. So I like
[36:58.240 -> 37:01.200] stopped the game, full the game and I pulled the player up and said, you know, what do you think
[37:01.200 -> 37:07.360] you're doing? I said, like we spoke at length up there, what our standards are going forward. First training session, you broke it. I said, it's
[37:07.360 -> 37:12.160] unacceptable for you. You know, you're a leader within this team. So it was a bit taken back by
[37:12.160 -> 37:15.280] it. We had a bit, we had an heated argument about it, you know, a bit of denial. I'm saying,
[37:15.280 -> 37:18.640] listen mate, you've done it. We've all seen it. You, you, you basically, you've done it.
[37:18.640 -> 37:21.440] Don't do it. That's all I'm saying. You know, that's all I'm saying is don't do it. It needs
[37:21.440 -> 37:25.640] to be said. So we went, we, I've, all right, okay. Apologise to the group.
[37:25.640 -> 37:26.860] But me and him didn't chat for a bit.
[37:26.860 -> 37:30.900] We've continued that training session, but I think that showed a clear marker to
[37:30.900 -> 37:31.760] everybody, right?
[37:31.760 -> 37:33.720] That these are the standards we've got.
[37:33.720 -> 37:36.760] And if you're going to cross them, then something's going to get said about it.
[37:36.780 -> 37:37.460] You know?
[37:37.460 -> 37:42.940] So, and I think that was probably a bit of my role within that team is that I would
[37:43.540 -> 37:49.140] try and lead through behaviours, but if someone needs telling because they're not doing something then I'm
[37:49.140 -> 37:53.740] gonna tell you but it's not because I'm wanna fall out with you, it's just
[37:53.740 -> 37:56.340] because I'm trying to do it for the great good of the group, you know, that's
[37:56.340 -> 38:00.140] what I'm trying to do with it. So... But that's one of the things that I think is
[38:00.140 -> 38:04.120] one of your superpowers that you were often really brilliant at doing that of
[38:04.120 -> 38:06.360] challenging behaviors that fell outside the norm. So what's the best way of is one of your superpowers that you were often really brilliant at doing that of
[38:04.040 -> 38:09.240] challenging behaviours that fell outside
[38:06.360 -> 38:11.840] the norm. So what's the best way of giving
[38:09.240 -> 38:14.320] feedback to somebody? I think I've
[38:11.840 -> 38:16.040] developed in this area since I think I
[38:14.320 -> 38:18.960] could be firing brimstone and I've
[38:16.040 -> 38:20.360] kind of realised that it's not the best
[38:18.960 -> 38:22.280] way to do things all the time. I think
[38:20.360 -> 38:24.080] one of the best things to do is you've got
[38:22.280 -> 38:25.600] to be timely with it. I think if
[38:24.080 -> 38:26.600] something happens and I think you need to be on it quite quickly
[38:26.600 -> 38:31.760] I don't think you know waiting a long time for things to happen is not a good thing to do in
[38:32.000 -> 38:37.080] Sport you can be very very direct with people, but I get that's a bit different in the kind of real world
[38:37.080 -> 38:38.040] So, you know
[38:38.040 -> 38:42.480] I've done a lot of work on this is that you when you give feedback to someone you go ask them if they actually want
[38:42.480 -> 38:45.220] Feedback and get them to buy into it and then you've got to ask them if they actually want feedback and get them to buy into it.
[38:45.220 -> 38:47.280] And then you've got to give them some data points.
[38:47.280 -> 38:50.720] What loads of people do, people fluff around it
[38:50.720 -> 38:52.060] so they don't get the message across.
[38:52.060 -> 38:54.560] So they fluff around what they're going to say
[38:54.560 -> 38:56.000] and it becomes pretty vague
[38:56.000 -> 38:57.880] because they feel uncomfortable doing it.
[38:57.880 -> 38:59.320] Where it's better just being direct
[38:59.320 -> 39:00.800] and just getting straight to the point
[39:00.800 -> 39:03.160] and just seeing what you've got to say about it
[39:03.160 -> 39:05.080] and then asking them how they feel about it.
[39:05.080 -> 39:07.560] I think that's the steps of doing it.
[39:07.560 -> 39:08.880] Talk to us about pressure.
[39:08.880 -> 39:12.200] So when you coming into playoff season
[39:12.200 -> 39:13.760] this is where the pressure ramps up.
[39:13.760 -> 39:16.520] It's all it's win or lose now.
[39:16.520 -> 39:17.360] Yeah.
[39:17.360 -> 39:18.180] Death or glory.
[39:18.180 -> 39:19.120] Yeah, it's death or glory.
[39:19.120 -> 39:21.000] Do or die in rugby league terms.
[39:21.000 -> 39:23.320] And I love that part of it.
[39:23.320 -> 39:25.080] I mean, that is just the best, right?
[39:25.080 -> 39:26.720] That they're all the pressures on
[39:26.720 -> 39:29.680] and get to watch other teams crumble under the pressure,
[39:29.680 -> 39:31.420] under the weight of expectation.
[39:31.420 -> 39:34.920] I always look to the playoff series, not as pressure,
[39:34.920 -> 39:37.920] but it's just the opportunity to show everybody
[39:37.920 -> 39:39.640] how good we are as a team.
[39:39.640 -> 39:41.640] And I think that's just a great way of looking at it
[39:41.640 -> 39:44.520] where people go, oh, it's a big high pressure game this,
[39:44.520 -> 39:46.200] you know, I'm not sure we've got it by.
[39:46.200 -> 39:47.160] I'm gonna admit it,
[39:47.160 -> 39:49.400] like we've worked really hard for this all year.
[39:49.400 -> 39:50.800] It's 11 months into it.
[39:50.800 -> 39:51.800] We all believe in each other,
[39:51.800 -> 39:52.640] we're all trusting each other.
[39:52.640 -> 39:53.560] Let's just go out there
[39:53.560 -> 39:56.080] and just take this opportunity up.
[39:56.080 -> 39:57.200] And I think, you know,
[39:57.200 -> 39:59.840] from my experiences at the Bulls,
[39:59.840 -> 40:02.440] being in and around it and thinking about
[40:02.440 -> 40:03.800] how playoffs work, you know,
[40:03.800 -> 40:04.880] I've got playoff experience.
[40:04.880 -> 40:06.840] And I realised by the time I got to the Rhinos, right,
[40:06.840 -> 40:08.920] one of the key differences in the playoffs
[40:08.920 -> 40:12.000] is you just can't go in there wanting to win it
[40:12.000 -> 40:13.880] because every other club's doing that, right?
[40:13.880 -> 40:15.280] Every other club that goes into playoffs
[40:15.280 -> 40:17.200] wants to win Super League, right?
[40:17.200 -> 40:19.120] They want to win the grand final.
[40:19.120 -> 40:20.160] And it's a good motivator,
[40:20.160 -> 40:23.160] but in the high performance environment of sport,
[40:23.160 -> 40:24.360] you always need more than that.
[40:24.360 -> 40:25.360] I think you need more than that.
[40:25.360 -> 40:27.720] And for me, I would always try connectors
[40:27.720 -> 40:30.480] with a kind of human story in and around it,
[40:30.480 -> 40:32.720] you know, or a more emotional story.
[40:32.720 -> 40:37.200] So 2007, like Smithy was leaving, Tony Smith, the coach,
[40:37.200 -> 40:39.640] and I thought, this is the hook we need to get hold of
[40:39.640 -> 40:42.120] as a team, you know, saying, yeah, we want to win it,
[40:42.120 -> 40:43.600] but we want to send him out on a winner.
[40:43.600 -> 40:48.440] And I think doing great achievements for other people
[40:48.440 -> 40:50.800] because of somebody else, people buy into that, I think.
[40:50.800 -> 40:55.280] I think, you know, it lifts people above and beyond
[40:55.280 -> 40:57.000] and it brings teams together.
[40:57.000 -> 40:59.200] And I reckon we were great doing that.
[40:59.200 -> 41:01.400] I think that's one of the reasons why we had success
[41:01.400 -> 41:03.600] in the grand finals time and time again,
[41:03.600 -> 41:07.200] because we'd hook into
[41:04.680 -> 41:09.560] something bigger than winning the
[41:07.200 -> 41:12.240] trophy. You know people and doing it for
[41:09.560 -> 41:14.640] your friend and these kind of reasons are
[41:12.240 -> 41:16.720] bigger than just winning a trophy and I
[41:14.640 -> 41:18.960] reckon by doing that you just get more
[41:16.720 -> 41:21.080] out of people. I've seen it, it happens.
[41:18.960 -> 41:23.640] So give us an example then of when you've
[41:21.080 -> 41:26.800] seen it work at its best. So I reckon
[41:23.640 -> 41:29.680] probably in our final year, 2015, there's myself, Kylie and Kev leaving and
[41:29.680 -> 41:35.840] we're busted I think at the end of 2015. We set our goal to win the treble, we win the
[41:35.840 -> 41:40.680] Challenge Cup, okay, and then we go on a run of losing, we lose I think three games in
[41:40.680 -> 41:45.120] a row but still manage to finish top of the league by beating Huddersfield.
[41:45.600 -> 41:52.000] But then we've got probably five or six best players out, and then we start to use the fact that us three are going.
[41:52.000 -> 41:53.200] And Brian Mack jumps on it.
[41:53.200 -> 41:54.320] Brian McDermott was great at that.
[41:54.320 -> 41:57.400] He really understood that there's got to be something bigger than yourself.
[41:57.700 -> 41:58.600] Jumped on the facts.
[41:58.600 -> 42:00.400] I've not used it all year, but we're on it now.
[42:00.400 -> 42:02.800] You know, you want to send these kind of three players out.
[42:03.100 -> 42:04.320] They've been here for the last 10 years.
[42:04.320 -> 42:05.600] Kev's been here for 20 years,
[42:05.900 -> 42:11.100] that send them out as winners and you can see, you can feel a room when people go,
[42:11.700 -> 42:15.100] I'm having a piece of that, you know, that means you've been in rooms,
[42:15.200 -> 42:19.000] how many, you know, sporting teams, you can see when like the dominoes click on
[42:19.000 -> 42:21.600] everybody's eyes and they go, yeah, I'm having a bit of that.
[42:21.700 -> 42:22.800] Yeah, I'll have that too.
[42:22.900 -> 42:28.400] That means I'm just going to do a bit more. And I think it really showed then 2015,
[42:28.900 -> 42:30.900] half time, we're beating Wigan in the Grand Finals,
[42:30.900 -> 42:32.840] completely treble, they come out and blitz us,
[42:32.840 -> 42:35.680] we end up behind, but we just dug in,
[42:35.680 -> 42:37.720] got our try back and the last 10 minutes,
[42:38.000 -> 42:39.680] I reckon we were playing on fumes,
[42:39.680 -> 42:40.960] you know, the team's busted.
[42:40.960 -> 42:42.200] And what we were playing on,
[42:42.200 -> 42:48.960] I think was that drive and emotion to try do the right thing by three players who've been o ran y teimladau a'r hyn rydyn ni'n chwarae arno, rwy'n credu, oedd y drifnod a'r cymorth i gofyn i wneud yr un peth yn iawn gan tri pêlwyr sydd wedi bod yn y team ac yn eithaf
[42:48.960 -> 42:53.360] gweithio'n awyr, a chadw'r gysylltiad unigol gyda'r holl bobl yn y team
[42:53.360 -> 42:56.080] a gafodd i ni wneud hynny. Rydyn ni wedi cymryd y rhan, rwy'n credu.
[42:56.080 -> 42:59.920] Brif, rwy'n hoffi hynny oherwydd dyma'r teimlad fawr yn y gweithgaredd y sport ar y
[42:59.920 -> 43:03.840] moment a'i gysylltu ar y teimlad, a rhoi'r teimlad i'r team ar gyfer y seswn.
[43:03.840 -> 43:10.240] Iawn. it around theming, giving a team a theme for a season. Where I'm interested in though, Gerry, is like how you get that sweet spot of it. Because I've
[43:10.240 -> 43:13.440] been in dressing rooms where you get people standing up and telling their
[43:13.440 -> 43:18.880] story or you show them footage of like their wives or partners, telling you how
[43:18.880 -> 43:23.320] proud they are. And I've been in environments where that can almost over
[43:23.320 -> 43:26.520] arouse the group, where there's too much emotion
[43:26.520 -> 43:29.040] rather than the cold logic you want.
[43:29.040 -> 43:30.840] But I've also heard of examples
[43:30.840 -> 43:32.680] and you've been involved in some of them
[43:32.680 -> 43:36.080] where you actually get that balance perfectly right.
[43:36.080 -> 43:36.920] Yeah.
[43:36.920 -> 43:38.960] What's been your experience of how to do that well?
[43:38.960 -> 43:41.600] It's true that I think timing's important with this.
[43:41.600 -> 43:46.480] I really believe, I think if you go back to
[43:48.760 -> 43:49.420] 2007 when we win the grand final and
[43:54.060 -> 43:54.860] Massive underdogs against St. Helens mean they were an outstanding team and we did it the night before
[44:01.140 -> 44:04.320] So I think if you did so the night before we sat around in a circle talk about what does this game mean to us? You know what not technically but emotionally
[44:02.040 -> 44:05.900] does this game mean to us? Not technically, but emotionally, spiritually,
[44:05.900 -> 44:08.920] what does this game mean to you, each as individuals?
[44:08.920 -> 44:12.260] And I just think that the night before,
[44:12.260 -> 44:14.840] in any kind of sporting arena,
[44:14.840 -> 44:16.120] it's the perfect time to do it.
[44:16.120 -> 44:18.280] If you do it on a Monday, it's great,
[44:18.280 -> 44:19.720] but you're gonna be fired up on Tuesday
[44:19.720 -> 44:21.160] and you play Saturday, okay?
[44:21.160 -> 44:23.520] You do it the day of the game, and it's just too much.
[44:23.520 -> 44:25.680] It drives you into that overload.
[44:26.000 -> 44:33.920] Overload, I think for me 24 hours before is a great time to be quite emotional about why you want to do something.
[44:34.560 -> 44:36.640] Especially if it's gonna be a long kind of session.
[44:36.640 -> 44:40.200] I think if it's gonna be short and punches someone three minutes to connect with you,
[44:40.200 -> 44:43.960] I think that's a good way of doing it just before you go out to play, you know, a couple of hours before.
[44:44.160 -> 44:49.560] But certainly if it's something that's gonna take 15, 30, 45 minutes an hour and everyone's going to connect to it
[44:49.560 -> 44:55.080] Then that needs to be done at least 24 hours before but no more than 48 in my experience with that
[44:55.080 -> 44:58.600] I think you lose a bit of residual impact with it
[44:58.600 -> 45:01.360] And I think you can set a theme at the start of the season
[45:01.600 -> 45:09.080] It's really difficult to carry that theme all the way through the year, 30 weeks long with that. So for me, they'd be kind of the sweet spots
[45:09.080 -> 45:11.160] I reckon within sport to do that.
[45:11.160 -> 45:16.080] So what would you tap into then? Because I'm always interested in the fact that you just
[45:16.080 -> 45:19.840] kept coming back year after year, there was a relentlessness that you're always there
[45:19.840 -> 45:25.800] in the finals. So what were you tapping
[45:22.880 -> 45:27.520] into, like say on the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth
[45:25.800 -> 45:29.600] time you go into grand finals? Yeah,
[45:27.520 -> 45:31.560] you're always, always trying to find that
[45:29.600 -> 45:34.080] different kind of personal slant on it. And
[45:31.560 -> 45:36.120] usually, for me, each kind of grand final,
[45:34.080 -> 45:38.280] because it's a year in between, you
[45:36.120 -> 45:40.960] generally find a story, you find like a
[45:38.280 -> 45:42.880] human person story. And for me, I'd be always
[45:40.960 -> 45:44.440] thinking about where's our hook gonna
[45:42.880 -> 45:46.760] be with this one? What's the hook gonna be
[45:44.440 -> 45:45.600] personally that maybe I can get hold And for me, I'd be always thinking about where's our hook gonna be with this one? What's the hook gonna be, personally,
[45:45.600 -> 45:47.440] that maybe I can get hold of
[45:47.440 -> 45:50.560] and then try get everybody else hold of it too.
[45:50.560 -> 45:52.640] And then if we get enough of us doing it,
[45:52.640 -> 45:55.240] then emotionally we can lift,
[45:55.240 -> 45:56.160] we can lift and get there.
[45:56.160 -> 45:58.200] We might be busted, might be tired doing it.
[45:58.200 -> 46:00.640] So I think it's about having eyes up
[46:00.640 -> 46:02.720] and actively looking for it, I think,
[46:02.720 -> 46:04.120] about four or five weeks out.
[46:04.120 -> 46:05.960] Because I think genuinely,
[46:05.960 -> 46:09.280] because sports are intense and the season is so up and down
[46:09.280 -> 46:11.120] that you will find something that you go,
[46:11.120 -> 46:12.300] ah, that's the one,
[46:12.300 -> 46:15.240] but it's not something I think where you'll think,
[46:15.240 -> 46:16.560] I'm gonna think about that.
[46:16.560 -> 46:17.960] And then an hour later, you get it.
[46:17.960 -> 46:19.520] That doesn't happen overnight.
[46:19.520 -> 46:21.640] It happens over a period of time,
[46:21.640 -> 46:24.160] thinking about things along the way with it.
[46:24.160 -> 46:28.280] And how much of that would be, want to prove somebody wrong versus how much of
[46:28.280 -> 46:32.160] it is we want to prove ourselves right? You know, wanting to prove somebody wrong
[46:32.160 -> 46:35.560] can be used in such a positive way, you know, because we're gonna use
[46:35.560 -> 46:40.840] their opinion of us to achieve greatness. We're gonna actually use your negative
[46:40.840 -> 46:47.040] comments to springboard us into doing something amazing. And, you know, I met a really great guy,
[46:47.040 -> 46:50.200] Paul Sewell, like the Richard Branson of all, basically.
[46:50.200 -> 46:51.040] He said to me,
[46:51.040 -> 46:53.340] "'Pissed Off People' changed the world."
[46:53.340 -> 46:54.300] And it's true, right?
[46:54.300 -> 46:55.220] It's absolutely true.
[46:55.220 -> 46:56.160] I thought, that's a great saying.
[46:56.160 -> 46:58.200] I wish I'd have had that when I was playing, mate.
[46:58.200 -> 46:59.160] I thought, it's brilliant.
[46:59.160 -> 47:00.000] But it's true, right?
[47:00.000 -> 47:03.040] And I think, oh, how do you get a group of people motivated?
[47:03.040 -> 47:05.440] Well, tell them that you can't do something.
[47:05.440 -> 47:06.920] So just tell them that they can't do that.
[47:06.920 -> 47:08.760] And then you can use that in a positive way.
[47:08.760 -> 47:10.840] I think you can use that as a springboard.
[47:10.840 -> 47:12.600] And when you've finished and you've done it,
[47:12.600 -> 47:13.640] you just thank them for it.
[47:13.640 -> 47:14.960] So thank you for that.
[47:14.960 -> 47:17.560] And you've just turned it into a kind of real positive.
[47:17.560 -> 47:19.640] So let's get to the end of your career then.
[47:19.640 -> 47:21.120] You've sort of, you've retired,
[47:21.120 -> 47:24.440] you've lionized within the world of rugby league.
[47:24.440 -> 47:25.400] You're seen as a great leader. What do you do in that second act? you retire, you're lionized within the
[47:23.320 -> 47:28.160] world of rugby league, you're seen as a great
[47:25.400 -> 47:29.720] leader. What do you do in that second act?
[47:28.160 -> 47:31.560] How did you start planning for that?
[47:29.720 -> 47:32.760] I first of all started doing a masters
[47:31.560 -> 47:34.200] you know in sports business
[47:32.760 -> 47:36.920] administration. I thought that's the
[47:34.200 -> 47:37.840] direction I want to go in and then you
[47:36.920 -> 47:40.040] know I want to be someone as an
[47:37.840 -> 47:42.200] administrator in sport and I went to work
[47:40.040 -> 47:44.040] for Hull Kiara and things didn't work out for
[47:42.200 -> 47:46.360] me there. You know I tried my best to
[47:44.040 -> 47:46.000] be a director of rugby
[47:46.000 -> 47:47.440] and being an administrator.
[47:47.440 -> 47:49.520] And what I realized probably about six to nine months
[47:49.520 -> 47:51.680] into this, I just thought, this is not me.
[47:51.680 -> 47:53.680] This is not what I like to do.
[47:53.680 -> 47:55.760] I'm not in the middle of it enough.
[47:55.760 -> 47:57.440] I made some mistakes along the way.
[47:57.440 -> 47:59.440] I always thought I was quite good
[47:59.440 -> 48:01.280] at building relationships with people.
[48:01.280 -> 48:03.280] Didn't do enough of that in my time at Hulkyar.
[48:03.280 -> 48:10.540] I tried to be a bit standoffish when I should have just gone into it like I normally do and I realized that in my life
[48:10.540 -> 48:16.060] I love diversity. You know what? The one thing I love is diversity. That's why I thought I love my rugby career
[48:16.060 -> 48:22.380] because it was always different. We're always doing different things, different occasions. So I thought, you know what? I'm gonna do some things differently.
[48:22.380 -> 48:26.620] I work better when I work for myself. I think, you know what, I'm gonna do some things differently. I work better when I work for myself. I think, you know, dipped into,
[48:26.620 -> 48:28.040] you've got sent me on the journey,
[48:28.040 -> 48:29.200] which I'm always thankful for,
[48:29.200 -> 48:31.720] into like motivational speaking.
[48:31.720 -> 48:34.760] But then what I want to do was expand that out
[48:34.760 -> 48:36.800] into really creating habits,
[48:36.800 -> 48:39.040] really changing the way people behave.
[48:39.040 -> 48:40.960] So I kind of use some of the aspects,
[48:40.960 -> 48:44.020] you principles that you pointed out to me
[48:44.020 -> 48:45.760] that allow me to be successful,
[48:45.760 -> 48:48.840] added some others in and just created like a coaching,
[48:48.840 -> 48:51.520] mentoring programme that was not full of waffle
[48:51.520 -> 48:55.120] and just real, honest, and started getting involved
[48:55.120 -> 48:55.960] with that.
[48:55.960 -> 48:58.440] And I just, it's been brilliant for me, honestly,
[48:58.440 -> 49:00.960] you know, because I remember being sat in the old car
[49:00.960 -> 49:04.440] in my little office and I just thought,
[49:04.440 -> 49:05.280] I screwed my language.
[49:05.280 -> 49:06.400] What the fuck am I doing here?
[49:06.400 -> 49:07.400] Why am I here?
[49:07.400 -> 49:08.880] I like, I'm not happy.
[49:08.880 -> 49:10.960] This don't suit me, being in here.
[49:10.960 -> 49:13.120] You know, I'm not bringing the best version of myself.
[49:13.120 -> 49:14.560] I need to do something about it.
[49:14.560 -> 49:17.120] You know, I had that probably back to the bus again.
[49:17.120 -> 49:18.600] That I reckon the easiest decision for me
[49:18.600 -> 49:21.760] would just stay there, use my name, collect my money,
[49:21.760 -> 49:22.840] just get on with things,
[49:22.840 -> 49:24.720] or I can start to make a difference.
[49:24.720 -> 49:26.880] I can start to do something that I wanna do.
[49:26.880 -> 49:28.880] And I thought, I like being around people.
[49:28.880 -> 49:30.440] I like watching people grow.
[49:30.440 -> 49:31.920] I think I can connect with people.
[49:31.920 -> 49:33.360] I've got a bit of a story here.
[49:33.360 -> 49:35.360] Let's just go for it and let's see what happens.
[49:35.360 -> 49:36.840] So there we go.
[49:36.840 -> 49:38.320] So if there's anyone listening to this
[49:38.320 -> 49:40.960] that maybe doesn't, not interested in sport,
[49:40.960 -> 49:43.920] or they're not thinking of it in that application,
[49:43.920 -> 49:48.720] what are your top three
[49:44.880 -> 49:51.240] tips that you teach people now as a
[49:48.720 -> 49:54.880] coach, as a consultant that they can use?
[49:51.240 -> 49:56.600] My top three tips would be firstly take
[49:54.880 -> 49:58.480] personal responsibility to deliver on
[49:56.600 -> 50:00.880] your word. So deliver on your word to
[49:58.480 -> 50:02.600] yourself as in the terms of the work that
[50:00.880 -> 50:04.480] you're gonna do, you know, but then
[50:02.600 -> 50:06.520] deliver on your word to the people that
[50:04.480 -> 50:09.680] you're either leading or managing because if you do that you build trust, people respect you and
[50:09.680 -> 50:14.960] you're in control of that basically, you know, and if you say well I'm too busy and I can't do that
[50:14.960 -> 50:19.600] that's because you won't learn the ability to say no and if you take control of that and learn the
[50:19.600 -> 50:24.720] ability to say no you'll be able to deliver on your word all the time. The next one for me,
[50:24.720 -> 50:26.300] we have to be kind, right?
[50:26.300 -> 50:28.420] There's a difference between being kind and being nice,
[50:28.420 -> 50:29.260] right?
[50:29.260 -> 50:30.080] They're two different things.
[50:30.080 -> 50:34.020] So for me, being nice is if someone's doing something wrong,
[50:34.020 -> 50:35.500] just going, I'm not going to say it,
[50:35.500 -> 50:36.980] because I don't want to hurt their feelings.
[50:36.980 -> 50:38.540] That's just being nice.
[50:38.540 -> 50:40.380] But actually saying to somebody, you know,
[50:40.380 -> 50:44.300] you need to improve and do things better.
[50:44.300 -> 50:45.640] That's being kind to them because they're going to develop off the back of it. And I think we have to improve and do things better. That's being kind to them
[50:45.640 -> 50:47.320] because they're gonna develop off the back of it.
[50:47.320 -> 50:49.840] And I think we have to be kind in our lives.
[50:49.840 -> 50:52.680] And then don't double up on blips and errors,
[50:52.680 -> 50:55.740] like, and accept that you're gonna have blips and errors
[50:55.740 -> 50:57.080] because that's life.
[50:57.080 -> 51:00.040] I think lots of people are really, really hard on themselves.
[51:00.040 -> 51:03.120] They're too hard on themselves and they get frustrated
[51:03.120 -> 51:05.320] and they get wound up and they get down
[51:05.320 -> 51:07.120] because they made a little mistake
[51:07.120 -> 51:10.080] or they had a little blip or they had a little error.
[51:10.080 -> 51:12.640] That's life, that is life, right?
[51:12.640 -> 51:15.160] What champions do is they just do not double them up,
[51:15.160 -> 51:17.080] do not double up on your blips and errors.
[51:17.080 -> 51:20.920] And again, those three things that I've spoken about there,
[51:20.920 -> 51:22.920] people are in charge of, you know,
[51:22.920 -> 51:27.360] you can take personal responsibility to do those and you take personal responsibility to deliver on
[51:27.360 -> 51:30.400] your word, to make sure you don't double up on errors and that you're actually
[51:30.400 -> 51:34.600] kind to people. You can do all that. Steve Marooner- That's a brilliant place to finish that
[51:34.600 -> 51:38.760] that part of our conversation, Jamie. So I now want to go into our quickfire round.
[51:38.760 -> 51:43.440] So what are your three non-negotiable behaviours that you and
[51:43.440 -> 51:45.560] everyone around you has to buy into?
[51:45.560 -> 51:48.240] So for me, we've probably talked about these again.
[51:48.240 -> 51:51.440] I think for me, my integrity is just do the right thing
[51:51.440 -> 51:52.280] by people.
[51:52.280 -> 51:54.800] There's no right way to do the wrong thing, basically.
[51:54.800 -> 51:57.340] And I think that's the absolute key with it.
[51:57.340 -> 52:01.040] Take personal responsibility for your decisions
[52:01.040 -> 52:02.080] and your mistakes.
[52:02.080 -> 52:06.040] Don't be blaming other people when you know it's down to you
[52:06.040 -> 52:07.240] and just be honest, I think.
[52:07.240 -> 52:10.160] Just be honest with yourself and other people around you
[52:10.160 -> 52:12.400] so they're the kind of fear around me.
[52:12.400 -> 52:14.320] Do the right thing by people,
[52:14.320 -> 52:16.220] take personal responsibility for things,
[52:16.220 -> 52:18.160] just try and be honest.
[52:18.160 -> 52:21.080] If you could go back to any one moment in your life,
[52:21.080 -> 52:22.960] what would it be and why?
[52:22.960 -> 52:28.360] I'm going to go back to the 2008 World Cup and I'm going to, when we lose our first game
[52:28.360 -> 52:32.520] against Papua New Guinea, I'm going to stand up and say, do you know what? I made these
[52:32.520 -> 52:36.480] mistakes in this game, I apologise to the group, didn't mean to do it. I think we just
[52:36.480 -> 52:40.280] all need to be a little bit more vulnerable about how we do it and put our rivalry to
[52:40.280 -> 52:48.360] the side. And I'd love to see where that, doing that would take that group. You know, I'd really like to do that. It kind of sits with me a bit that 2008 World Cup
[52:48.360 -> 52:52.880] because there's some things I know I could have done better about it and I can't do anything.
[52:52.880 -> 52:55.280] I ain't got the time machine Damien but I'd like to be able to do it.
[52:55.280 -> 52:56.280] I'd go back with you there.
[52:56.280 -> 52:57.280] Yeah, exactly.
[52:57.280 -> 52:58.280] Let's both go back there.
[52:58.280 -> 53:01.280] How important is legacy to you?
[53:01.280 -> 53:05.720] For me, if I continue to do the right thing by people, if I deliver on
[53:05.720 -> 53:10.600] my word and be honest, I think that will look after itself. I'd rather my legacy be that
[53:10.600 -> 53:14.200] anyone who bumped into me knew those three things about me and they didn't know me. If
[53:14.200 -> 53:17.640] they didn't know me about rugby player, they'd go, you know what, I reckon I do the right
[53:17.640 -> 53:21.600] thing by me. If I asked him to do something, he'd do it. And he'd be honest by me. I'd
[53:21.600 -> 53:25.640] like that to be, you know, whenever I, when I believe this,
[53:25.640 -> 53:28.000] my whole life that people say that about me,
[53:28.000 -> 53:29.440] not my legacy around a rugby player,
[53:29.440 -> 53:31.440] that's more important to me.
[53:31.440 -> 53:33.440] What advice would you give to a teenage Jamie
[53:33.440 -> 53:34.760] just starting out?
[53:34.760 -> 53:37.280] I'd say, say yes more.
[53:37.280 -> 53:39.760] I think as I've grown older,
[53:39.760 -> 53:41.400] I've realised that saying yes
[53:41.400 -> 53:43.800] takes you to far more exciting places
[53:43.800 -> 53:45.000] and far more exciting
[53:45.000 -> 53:49.120] things and I really believe when I was younger I was a little bit closed minded, I don't
[53:49.120 -> 53:52.920] want to do that, don't want to do this, probably that self-doubt in a lot of things I did but
[53:52.920 -> 53:57.800] now as I'm older I just say yes to things and then kind of, you just work it out later
[53:57.800 -> 53:59.320] or it'll be exciting won't it?
[53:59.320 -> 54:03.960] And it is, you know, like, and I think that'd be the one piece of advice I'd say, just say
[54:03.960 -> 54:10.200] yes a bit more. And finally, what's your one golden rule for living a high performance life?
[54:10.200 -> 54:14.480] Always, always, always do what you say you're going to do. That's the big one for me. Just
[54:14.480 -> 54:16.000] that's the one.
[54:16.000 -> 54:21.240] Brilliant. And I know your dad passed away a few years ago now, but given that we started
[54:21.240 -> 54:25.400] this story talking about that phone bus bus Halifax,
[54:28.320 -> 54:29.840] beth ydyn nhw'n meddwl o'r lle rydyn ni'n dod ymlaen, pan ddod o'r bus?
[54:29.840 -> 54:32.640] Wel, fy nabod oedd yn unig,
[54:32.640 -> 54:33.920] ac roeddwn i'n gallu ddweud,
[54:33.920 -> 54:36.720] dim ond unwaith y gafodd i mi weld,
[54:37.120 -> 54:38.880] rydw i'n credu ei fod wedi cael effaith gyda nhw,
[54:38.880 -> 54:39.360] ac rydw i'n credu,
[54:39.360 -> 54:39.640] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:39.640 -> 54:39.720] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:39.720 -> 54:39.760] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:39.760 -> 54:39.840] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:39.840 -> 54:39.920] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:39.920 -> 54:39.960] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:39.960 -> 54:40.040] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.040 -> 54:40.120] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.120 -> 54:40.200] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.200 -> 54:40.280] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.280 -> 54:40.360] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.360 -> 54:40.440] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.440 -> 54:40.520] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.520 -> 54:40.600] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.600 -> 54:40.680] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.680 -> 54:40.760] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.760 -> 54:40.840] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.840 -> 54:40.920] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:40.920 -> 54:41.000] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:41.000 -> 54:41.080] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:41.080 -> 54:41.160] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:41.160 -> 54:41.240] o'n i'n meddwl,
[54:41.240 -> 54:45.960] o'n i'n meddwl, o'n i'n meddwl the 2000 Challenge Cup final, I got to play in that. And he had a little tear in his eye, you know,
[54:45.960 -> 54:47.440] after the game, I could tell it,
[54:47.440 -> 54:48.880] it was a really proud moment for him.
[54:48.880 -> 54:52.320] And it meant a lot to him that his son, you know,
[54:52.320 -> 54:54.280] no one thought was going to make it professional.
[54:54.280 -> 54:56.000] And actually played in a Challenge Cup final.
[54:56.000 -> 54:57.000] I'm on a Challenge Cup final.
[54:57.000 -> 55:01.420] Now my dad used to organise a trip for 90 kids at Stanley,
[55:01.420 -> 55:03.400] along with some other coaches to go down to Wembley
[55:03.400 -> 55:04.760] every year on buses.
[55:04.760 -> 55:06.960] So we got a bit of an affinity with the Challenge Cup
[55:06.960 -> 55:08.580] as a kid growing up.
[55:08.580 -> 55:10.680] And for me, that was probably the only time
[55:10.680 -> 55:13.320] that I saw that in my dad.
[55:13.320 -> 55:14.760] I will finish with something else though,
[55:14.760 -> 55:17.760] with my dad, that my dad inspired me, okay,
[55:17.760 -> 55:19.240] on his deathbed ride.
[55:19.240 -> 55:21.280] 24th of November, 2011,
[55:21.280 -> 55:23.760] got diagnosed stage four terminal lung cancer.
[55:23.760 -> 55:28.640] And I was in Florida at this point when I get the phone call and like my world falls to bits and like imagine
[55:28.640 -> 55:31.680] being on holiday and you get that call because he went to the doctor saying he
[55:31.680 -> 55:34.960] you know he had a sore shoulder but he thought it was because he used to work making
[55:34.960 -> 55:39.120] false teeth but he said go for an x-ray went for an x-ray oncologist seen it and
[55:39.120 -> 55:41.760] told him you know what he said to him so you've got stage 4 lung cancer you've
[55:41.760 -> 55:45.240] got three months left to live so my dad went on the phone call,
[55:45.240 -> 55:46.640] like I'm in pieces, and my dad went,
[55:46.640 -> 55:47.840] listen, it's gonna be all right,
[55:47.840 -> 55:49.120] because I'm just not having that.
[55:49.120 -> 55:51.360] I'm not having like a doctor tell me
[55:51.360 -> 55:53.200] I've got three months left to live, watch this.
[55:53.200 -> 55:55.000] You know, trust me, it will be all right,
[55:55.000 -> 55:56.240] enjoy your holiday.
[55:56.240 -> 55:57.560] I've lived longer than that.
[55:57.560 -> 56:00.320] So my dad lived for 22 months, not three months,
[56:00.320 -> 56:02.320] eight times longer nearly than the doctor said
[56:02.320 -> 56:03.400] he was gonna do, right?
[56:03.400 -> 56:04.520] Unbelievable.
[56:04.520 -> 56:05.760] And during that time, he went through, you know, treatment, which I'm sure most people will know, months, eight times longer nearly than the doctor said he was gonna do, right?
[56:02.880 -> 56:07.520] Unbelievable. And during that time he went
[56:05.760 -> 56:09.840] through, you know, treatment which I'm
[56:07.520 -> 56:11.400] sure most people will know, if they know
[56:09.840 -> 56:12.800] someone who's got cancer, I think will
[56:11.400 -> 56:14.400] look back in a hundred years time and think that
[56:12.800 -> 56:18.320] was torture, you know, like through the
[56:14.400 -> 56:21.240] chemotherapy, radiotherapy. Never, never
[56:18.320 -> 56:23.760] once moaned a word, did not moan one
[56:21.240 -> 56:30.280] word through it. So I thought, my dad passed away
[56:24.160 -> 56:32.560] 2013, I thought I'm like 36 in my
[56:30.280 -> 56:34.640] career now, nearly 36, got two years left.
[56:32.560 -> 56:36.160] You know what I'm gonna, and a lot of
[56:34.640 -> 56:38.080] people question me, you know, where's
[56:36.160 -> 56:39.160] he at, should be retiring, and I thought
[56:38.080 -> 56:42.640] you know what, my dad had the best
[56:39.160 -> 56:44.920] mindset, he refused to let anybody like
[56:42.640 -> 56:46.120] box him in, you know, like say, if you used
[56:44.920 -> 56:45.280] to let the onc box him in.
[56:43.440 -> 56:46.480] You know, like say, if you used to let the
[56:45.280 -> 56:48.840] oncologist say, you've got three months
[56:46.480 -> 56:50.320] left to live, I'm not having that. I thought
[56:48.840 -> 56:52.760] what an attitude that is to have. So I
[56:50.320 -> 56:54.480] applied that attitude to the last couple
[56:52.760 -> 56:57.600] of years of my career. You know, I wouldn't
[56:54.480 -> 57:00.040] let a pundit, a player gone before me,
[56:57.600 -> 57:01.520] a coach or anyone dictate, you know, what
[57:00.040 -> 57:04.400] I could do in the backstage of my
[57:01.520 -> 57:06.160] career. I firmly believe by him doing
[57:04.400 -> 57:06.900] that, the last couple of years, I played my best rugby.
[57:06.900 -> 57:07.740] Yeah, as a player, you know,
[57:07.740 -> 57:09.940] I was like the Leeds Rhinos player a year twice,
[57:09.940 -> 57:12.620] nearly won the Man of Steel in the Dream Team.
[57:12.620 -> 57:13.700] It all came together for me.
[57:13.700 -> 57:16.700] And that for me showed out of a really crappy
[57:16.700 -> 57:19.660] and negative situation, can draw a positive out of it.
[57:19.660 -> 57:21.420] And for me, it inspired me right to the death.
[57:21.420 -> 57:23.060] Wow, what a brilliant legacy.
[57:23.060 -> 57:24.220] Yeah, huge, right?
[57:24.220 -> 57:25.760] It's huge. Yeah, that's amazing.
[57:25.760 -> 57:30.760] Yeah.
[57:30.760 -> 57:34.680] We'll do a slightly different rap than the usual high-performance episodes
[57:34.680 -> 57:39.600] because I don't have my wingman Jake alongside me, but I think there are some
[57:39.600 -> 57:45.360] really important lessons there that Jamie shared with us, that we can reflect on and take into
[57:45.360 -> 57:47.520] our own lives.
[57:47.520 -> 57:53.820] The first idea of being the best at the things that require no talent is a brilliant one.
[57:53.820 -> 57:59.180] We can all be mindful of our timekeeping, how early do we arrive for meetings, how well
[57:59.180 -> 58:05.720] prepared are we, our manners, whether we give a handshake, eye contact, whether we say hello to people,
[58:05.720 -> 58:10.280] the preparation we do for any meeting or event that we're facing.
[58:10.280 -> 58:16.520] The second one is that idea that I told Jamie on the podcast that I incorporated into my
[58:16.520 -> 58:22.240] own world once he shared it with me many years ago, about dividing our decisions up into
[58:22.240 -> 58:25.000] hard versus easy ones.
[58:25.000 -> 58:26.640] You know, that example that he said
[58:26.640 -> 58:27.920] of when you go out for a run,
[58:27.920 -> 58:30.920] you don't have rocky music playing in your ears
[58:30.920 -> 58:32.680] when you're going about your day-to-day business,
[58:32.680 -> 58:35.920] so why do you need it when you're out for a run?
[58:35.920 -> 58:38.340] And if you make those kind of decisions,
[58:38.340 -> 58:40.240] the hard versus easy ones,
[58:40.240 -> 58:41.840] and then reflect at the end of the day
[58:41.840 -> 58:44.280] and weigh up which list is longer,
[58:44.280 -> 58:48.320] when you start making more of the hard decisions, the more confidence that you give yourself,
[58:48.320 -> 58:52.960] it's like you're building a wall and brick by brick, you're laying the foundations of knowing
[58:52.960 -> 58:59.760] that you can do the tough stuff when it really counts. And then the final one is, that topic of
[58:59.760 -> 59:08.000] trust is something that comes up so often when people talk about teams. You know, the best performing teams have high levels of trust.
[59:08.000 -> 59:12.000] And Jamie described it in one of the most succinct ways I've ever heard,
[59:12.000 -> 59:15.000] this idea of, just do what you say you're going to do.
[59:15.000 -> 59:18.000] So if you make a commitment, follow through and do it.
[59:18.000 -> 59:22.000] And the more that you do that, the more people then come to trust you.
[59:22.000 -> 59:26.480] So again, in moments of adversity or tough times, they
[59:26.480 -> 59:30.720] know that they can rely on you to follow through and do exactly what you've said you've done.
[59:31.840 -> 59:38.080] It's a real privilege to have sat down with Jamie and I hope that you'll listen to our next episode
[59:38.080 -> 59:43.200] of the High Performance Rugby League World Cup Specials. I look forward to speaking to you then.
[59:45.280 -> 59:49.040] Well, I really hope you enjoyed that. I would love to know what you think, please ping Damian
[59:49.040 -> 59:54.160] a message. He's at liquid thinker on Instagram. I know he would love your feedback and your response
[59:54.160 -> 59:59.200] to this conversation. But most of all, please just spread the learnings you're taking from this.
[59:59.200 -> 01:00:04.160] There is so much gold, there's so much magic, there's so much from these incredible people,
[01:00:04.160 -> 01:00:07.720] and it needs to be shared. It's great that you've heard it and you've reacted to it and you thought
[01:00:07.720 -> 01:00:12.520] about it. But what about the hundreds of thousands of people that would benefit from it? If you
[01:00:12.520 -> 01:00:17.400] can just pass it on to one person and they do the same and then they do the same, imagine
[01:00:17.400 -> 01:00:22.640] the impact we could have. So please do spread the lessons and the learnings from these podcasts.
[01:00:22.640 -> 01:00:27.120] Thanks to the whole team for their hard work. Thanks to Jamie Peacock for making the time to join us.
[01:00:27.120 -> 01:00:30.040] Thanks to Professor Hughes for being brilliant.
[01:00:30.040 -> 01:00:32.200] And remember, there is no secret.
[01:00:32.200 -> 01:00:33.440] It is all there for you.
[01:00:33.440 -> 01:00:35.120] So chase world-class basics,
[01:00:35.120 -> 01:00:37.120] don't get high on your own supply,
[01:00:37.120 -> 01:00:41.180] and remain humble, curious, and empathetic.
[01:00:41.180 -> None] We'll see you soon. you