E154 - Kevin Ellis: Building a culture that motivates talent

This is the last episode in our CEO Series, in which we will be deep diving into what it takes to be a CEO.

Kevin Ellis is Chair and Senior Partner of PwC UK. Starting his career as a graduate, he has now worked for PwC for 38 years. In this episode they discuss Kevin's experiences of leadership, touching on the importance of nurturing a culture that motivates talented people, accepting difficult feedback, and creating a legacy by lifting others up - ensuring the success of the business for generations to come. 

They also discuss the importance of respect, acknowledging everyone in your team and engaging with people at the start of their careers. Kevin shares that the best part of his role is the meaning he finds in helping others.

Thank you to PwC for sponsoring this special CEO Series. PwC’s purpose is to build trust and solve important problems, and their global strategy - The New Equation - is bringing this to life for their clients, people and society. By combining technology with human ingenuity, passion and experience, PwC works with organisations to deliver more intelligent, sustained outcomes.

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### High Performance Podcast Transcript with Kevin Ellis, Chairman and Senior Partner of PwC UK

**Introduction**

* Jake Humphrey introduces the final episode of the PwC CEO Series, featuring Kevin Ellis, Chairman and Senior Partner of PwC UK.
* Kevin has worked for PwC for 38 years, starting as a graduate.
* They will discuss Kevin's experiences of leadership, including nurturing talent, accepting difficult feedback, and creating a legacy.

**Key Points**

* **Nurturing Talent:**
* Kevin emphasizes the importance of creating a culture that motivates and engages talented individuals.
* He believes in listening to the brightest person in the room and empowering people to contribute their ideas.
* Respecting and acknowledging everyone in the team is crucial for maintaining a positive work environment.

* **Accepting Difficult Feedback:**
* Kevin acknowledges that everyone receives difficult feedback, and it's essential to be open and honest about it.
* He highlights the importance of learning from feedback and using it for personal and professional growth.
* He encourages leaders to be vulnerable and share their own experiences with feedback.

* **Creating a Legacy:**
* Kevin emphasizes the significance of building a legacy by lifting others up and ensuring the success of the business for generations to come.
* He believes in developing and promoting talent from within the organization.
* He stresses the importance of social mobility and creating a diverse and inclusive workforce.

* **Balancing Work and Personal Life:**
* Kevin acknowledges the challenge of balancing work and personal life, especially for those in leadership positions.
* He encourages leaders to set boundaries and prioritize their well-being.
* He believes that success comes from networks, making friends, and maintaining human contact.

* **The Role of Respect:**
* Kevin emphasizes the importance of respect in the workplace.
* He believes that everyone deserves to be treated with respect, regardless of their position or background.
* He encourages leaders to create a culture of respect and dignity.

**Conclusion**

* Kevin concludes by expressing his gratitude to PwC for sponsoring the CEO Series and for sharing their purpose of building trust and solving important problems.
* He highlights PwC's global strategy, The New Equation, which combines technology with human ingenuity, passion, and experience to deliver intelligent, sustained outcomes.

**Additional Points**

* Kevin discusses the challenges of making decisions that impact the lives of tens of thousands of people and the importance of having the right people around him.
* He emphasizes the need for leaders to be self-aware and recognize their blind spots.
* He shares an anecdote about the importance of being present and attentive in meetings and interactions.
* He explains PwC's decision to encourage employees to go home at lunchtime on Fridays to promote work-life balance and mental health.
* Kevin highlights the importance of playing to win in business, but with a long-term perspective, focusing on sustainability and legacy.
* He emphasizes the need for leaders to be positive and create energy, rather than dwelling on negativity.

# Navigating Leadership: A Conversation with Kevin Ellis, Chair and Senior Partner of PwC UK

In this episode, we delve into the world of leadership with Kevin Ellis, Chair and Senior Partner of PwC UK, who has spent 38 years with the company and witnessed significant transformations. Our discussion centers around the key aspects of effective leadership and the importance of nurturing a culture that motivates talented individuals.

1. **Fostering a Supportive and Motivational Culture:**

- Kevin emphasizes the significance of creating a work environment where talented people feel valued, respected, and motivated. He believes that leaders should prioritize the well-being and growth of their team members to drive success.

- He highlights the importance of recognizing and celebrating individual contributions, fostering a sense of belonging, and providing opportunities for employees to learn, develop, and advance within the organization.

2. **The Value of Constructive Feedback:**

- Kevin stresses the importance of accepting and embracing constructive feedback as a means to improve and grow as a leader. He encourages leaders to seek out feedback from their teams, peers, and mentors to gain valuable insights into their strengths and areas for development.

- He emphasizes the need for leaders to be open-minded and receptive to feedback, even when it is difficult to hear. By actively listening and considering different perspectives, leaders can identify areas where they can enhance their leadership skills and positively impact their teams.

3. **Leaving a Lasting Legacy:**

- Kevin believes that leaders should strive to leave a lasting legacy by lifting others up and empowering them to succeed. He encourages leaders to focus on developing their team members and creating a culture where everyone feels supported and has the opportunity to thrive.

- He emphasizes the importance of mentoring and coaching others, sharing knowledge and expertise, and creating a supportive network where individuals can learn from each other and grow together.

4. **The Power of Respect and Engagement:**

- Kevin highlights the importance of treating everyone in the team with respect, regardless of their role or position. He believes that leaders should engage with people at all levels of the organization, creating a sense of inclusivity and fostering open communication.

- He encourages leaders to be approachable and accessible, demonstrating genuine care for their team members' well-being and concerns. By creating a culture of respect and engagement, leaders can build strong relationships and inspire their teams to perform at their best.

5. **Finding Meaning in Helping Others:**

- Kevin reflects on the most fulfilling aspect of his role as a leader, emphasizing the meaning he finds in helping others. He believes that leaders have a responsibility to make a positive impact on the lives of their team members and the wider community.

- He encourages leaders to seek opportunities to mentor, coach, and guide others, helping them reach their full potential and achieve their goals. By focusing on the well-being and success of those around them, leaders can create a positive and fulfilling work environment.

Overall, the conversation with Kevin Ellis provides valuable insights into the qualities and practices of effective leadership. He emphasizes the importance of nurturing a supportive culture, embracing constructive feedback, leaving a lasting legacy, treating everyone with respect, and finding meaning in helping others. By adopting these principles, leaders can inspire their teams, drive success, and create a positive impact on their organizations and communities.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.840] How you doing? I'm Jake Humphrey and this is High Performance, our conversation for
[00:05.840 -> 00:11.760] you every single week. This podcast reminds you that it's within your ambition, your purpose,
[00:11.760 -> 00:16.120] your story. It's all there. We just help you unlock it by turning the lived experiences
[00:16.120 -> 00:20.320] of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. And you know what? One of the
[00:20.320 -> 00:26.920] things that I'm most proud of with the High Performance podcast is how we've evolved when myself and professor Damien Hughes
[00:26.920 -> 00:28.320] first started three years ago
[00:28.320 -> 00:36.160] We were talking primarily to sports people and then we started talking to sport and business people and then we branched out into the
[00:36.160 -> 00:37.520] entertainment industry
[00:37.520 -> 00:42.560] And then we started talking to people like Mark Cavendish who were elite athletes
[00:42.560 -> 00:47.200] But still have mental health problems and then we took a step towards Roxy Nafusi who talks about
[00:47.200 -> 00:52.360] manifestation and Owen O'Kane who was a psychotherapist and this podcast has
[00:52.360 -> 00:57.100] been on a real journey and I think the key is the breadth, the depth and the
[00:57.100 -> 01:01.540] diversity of the conversations that we're having. So among all of those
[01:01.540 -> 01:09.780] conversations we really wanted to get to the heart of business as well and that's why I was so pleased when PwC agreed to partner with us to
[01:09.780 -> 01:14.440] create the PwC CEO series here on high performance and over the last few weeks
[01:14.440 -> 01:19.560] we've spoken to Amanda Blanc the Aviva CEO about how you can be yourself in the
[01:19.560 -> 01:24.200] biggest of businesses the CEO of Octopus Energy Greg Jackson talking about how
[01:24.200 -> 01:25.560] you can be successful
[01:25.560 -> 01:28.480] but you need to have compassion at the heart of your business. We were joined by Debra
[01:28.480 -> 01:32.660] Cadman, the Chief Exec of Birmingham City Council, who gave us some great advice on
[01:32.660 -> 01:36.840] how to work in partnership with others. And last week, Emma Sinclair, an entrepreneur
[01:36.840 -> 01:42.000] and the youngest person in the UK to take a company public at the age of 29, discussed
[01:42.000 -> 01:45.400] rethinking and upbringing with us. They've been the most
[01:45.400 -> 01:50.000] amazing conversations and today we welcome this man.
[01:50.000 -> 01:55.060] I think it's important for people to see that no one's perfect. It's not about being the
[01:55.060 -> 01:58.800] brightest person in the room. It's about listening to the brightest person in the room when you're
[01:58.800 -> 02:03.080] making the decisions. You know, we all get imposter syndrome. I got it walking in here
[02:03.080 -> 02:10.340] today to talk to you guys. You know, we all have imposter syndrome. I got it walking in here today to talk to you guys You know We all have imposter syndrome and I think being honest about it and being honest that mental health is a real issue in everyone's lives
[02:10.340 -> 02:15.320] Every family's lives and I think it helps people being open about it and that helps them find ways to help themselves
[02:16.280 -> 02:18.360] Fear is a big factor out there
[02:18.360 -> 02:19.440] and when you got
[02:19.440 -> 02:22.240] 25,000 people average age of 31 and you're recruiting
[02:22.640 -> 02:26.480] 4,000 of them every year and 4,000 of them
[02:24.800 -> 02:28.520] leaving you. To keep the culture at the
[02:26.480 -> 02:31.320] right place you have to constantly
[02:28.520 -> 02:32.840] communicate what the strategy is and try
[02:31.320 -> 02:35.200] and make it real so that everyone knows
[02:32.840 -> 02:37.800] the role they play in delivering that
[02:35.200 -> 02:40.280] strategy. Success comes from networks,
[02:37.800 -> 02:43.080] making friends, that human contact and it
[02:40.280 -> 02:45.520] starts on day one. So this is going to
[02:43.080 -> 02:45.840] be a very interesting episode because the whole point
[02:45.840 -> 02:53.040] about the CEO series is that this is CEOs disarmed, completely honest, sharing the truth about what
[02:53.040 -> 02:58.240] it's like and it's in partnership with PWC and today we're joined by Kevin Ellis who's the
[02:58.240 -> 03:10.000] chairman and senior partner of PWC here in the UK and he has a fascinating story. He's worked for the business for 38 years. So how do you manage to stay flexible and stay dynamic
[03:10.000 -> 03:13.840] and drive change when you've been there that long? We talk about Kevin's role as
[03:13.840 -> 03:19.000] CEO. We delve into his key learnings about why it's so crucial to accept
[03:19.000 -> 03:22.000] difficult feedback, especially when you're in a senior role. And we'll go
[03:22.000 -> 03:25.760] through all the reasons that Kevin says he always listens
[03:25.760 -> 03:27.880] to the brightest person in the room.
[03:27.880 -> 03:30.540] Respect, acknowledging people in your team,
[03:30.540 -> 03:33.080] finding the best balance of work and personal life.
[03:33.080 -> 03:35.360] Kevin shares so much with us.
[03:35.360 -> 03:36.720] And I just really wanted to say
[03:36.720 -> 03:38.960] a very honest thank you to PWC,
[03:38.960 -> 03:42.040] not just for sponsoring these conversations,
[03:42.040 -> 03:44.240] but for having the same desire as us
[03:44.240 -> 03:46.880] to bring these conversations to the forefront of same desire as us to bring these
[03:44.800 -> 03:49.080] conversations to the forefront of people's
[03:46.880 -> 03:50.920] minds. You know, PwC's purpose is to build
[03:49.080 -> 03:52.640] trust and solve important problems and
[03:50.920 -> 03:54.600] I've mentioned a few times their
[03:52.640 -> 03:56.120] incredible global strategy, the new
[03:54.600 -> 03:57.880] equation where they're bringing that to
[03:56.120 -> 04:00.160] life for their clients, for people and for
[03:57.880 -> 04:02.960] society, where they know that combining
[04:00.160 -> 04:05.320] technology with human ingenuity, passion
[04:02.960 -> 04:05.280] and experience, they can deliver intelligent, sustained outcomes. And this technology with human ingenuity, passion
[04:02.960 -> 04:07.320] and experience, they can deliver
[04:05.280 -> 04:09.240] intelligent, sustained outcomes and this
[04:07.320 -> 04:11.520] is a conversation which is all about
[04:09.240 -> 04:14.160] human ingenuity, passion and
[04:11.520 -> 04:18.080] experience. So sit back and enjoy the
[04:14.160 -> 04:20.600] final episode of our CEO specials in
[04:18.080 -> 04:22.560] partnership with PwC. Here is their
[04:20.600 -> 04:27.200] chairman and senior partner, Kevin Ellis. Kevin Ellis
[04:27.200 -> 04:29.440] Kevin, welcome to High Performance.
[04:29.440 -> 04:31.160] Let's start then with our first question.
[04:31.160 -> 04:33.560] In your mind, what is high performance?
[04:33.560 -> 04:34.800] For a business like mine,
[04:34.800 -> 04:36.720] high performance really comes down
[04:36.720 -> 04:38.400] to having the right culture
[04:38.400 -> 04:42.320] where your people feel motivated and engaged enough
[04:42.320 -> 04:43.860] to always go the extra mile.
[04:43.860 -> 04:45.320] And I think that kind of relates,
[04:45.320 -> 04:47.160] not just businesses like mine, I think everything,
[04:47.160 -> 04:50.540] even in sports, I can see analogies where
[04:50.540 -> 04:52.980] it's not just the person doing the event that matters,
[04:52.980 -> 04:55.040] it's kind of their back office and their team
[04:55.040 -> 04:57.120] all being able to go that extra mile.
[04:57.120 -> 04:58.800] That's how it kind of works for me.
[04:58.800 -> 05:01.620] So let's imagine that PwC is a sports team.
[05:01.620 -> 05:03.120] Are you the managing director?
[05:03.120 -> 05:05.560] Are you Jurgen Klopp in the dugout? Are you
[05:05.560 -> 05:09.400] his most learned assistant? Are you the captain on the football field? What do you see your
[05:09.400 -> 05:10.400] role as?
[05:10.400 -> 05:14.960] I think I'm probably a combination of the manager, but probably more importantly, the
[05:14.960 -> 05:21.860] kind of development advisor. For me, the success of PWC is all about legacy and bringing the
[05:21.860 -> 05:29.840] people through. So it's about development and recruitment of top quality resource as it is about leading on the pitch.
[05:29.840 -> 05:34.000] This is a question we ask a lot of our sports coaches of how much of an impact do you
[05:34.000 -> 05:39.720] think you can have on the bottom line of PwC's performance as the leader?
[05:39.720 -> 05:43.720] Again we've been around as a business for 170 years and you've got to look at
[05:43.720 -> 05:48.320] the bottom line not the bottom line today but where you're going in terms of the bottom line over
[05:48.320 -> 05:50.280] five, 10 years.
[05:50.280 -> 05:51.280] It's all about legacy.
[05:51.280 -> 05:57.040] That again comes down to being able to retain top quality talent and motivate them.
[05:57.040 -> 06:02.520] And I think, again, some of it comes down to actions, i.e. if you don't actually walk
[06:02.520 -> 06:05.720] the talk, people looking at you won't necessarily believe
[06:05.720 -> 06:08.620] your authenticity, therefore they won't believe the culture.
[06:08.620 -> 06:12.100] So you've actually got to live, if you like, very much day to day, because you're quite
[06:12.100 -> 06:13.580] visible in my kind of role.
[06:13.580 -> 06:15.660] But secondly, you've got to constantly communicate.
[06:15.660 -> 06:20.500] The most important thing we've really learned, I think, over the last five or six years,
[06:20.500 -> 06:27.600] with all the shocks we've experienced, be it COVID, be it Brexit, geopolitical impacts of the invasion of Ukraine.
[06:27.600 -> 06:32.960] Fear is a big factor out there and when you've got 25,000 people, average age of 31,
[06:32.960 -> 06:36.640] and you're recruiting 4,000 of them every year and 4,000 of them are leaving you,
[06:36.640 -> 06:42.000] to keep the culture at the right place, you have to constantly communicate what the strategy is
[06:42.000 -> 06:45.700] and try and make it real so that everyone knows the role they play in
[06:45.960 -> 06:51.360] delivering that strategy. And how do you do that without getting bored of repeating the same message over and over?
[06:51.920 -> 06:54.340] It's the people, it's the energy that you get from the people.
[06:54.340 -> 06:58.080] You've probably heard me going on about an importance of return to the office. For me, the
[06:58.240 -> 07:04.600] engagement with people, getting that buzz and that feedback from the people is why it's not boring because everybody is different. You have amazing
[07:04.760 -> 07:06.440] moments where you really are making it
[07:06.440 -> 07:11.640] up on the hoof. You take the example of March 2020, overnight we took a decision
[07:11.640 -> 07:16.280] to send 25,000 people home. Covid began to strike and we could see the risks of
[07:16.280 -> 07:19.520] moving people around on public transport was an increase so we told everyone to
[07:19.520 -> 07:24.000] work from home. We had no idea that a business like mine that does auditing,
[07:24.000 -> 07:27.240] does deals, does tax advice, does consulting,
[07:27.240 -> 07:33.280] could actually work from home. At that moment in time as a board, we could see our people catastrophizing
[07:33.280 -> 07:38.680] because you had a day-to-day news feed from the government and from the World Health Organization
[07:38.680 -> 07:44.360] on risks to life, risks to health, risks to working redundancy. So we thought then,
[07:44.360 -> 07:46.160] how do we take as much risk out
[07:46.160 -> 07:51.280] that we could control and the only way we could do that was effectively guarantee there will be no
[07:51.280 -> 07:55.200] unnecessary redundancies. We're a successful business, we had enough balance sheet probably
[07:55.200 -> 07:59.440] to see us through four or five months and we thought if we didn't allow our people to remove
[07:59.440 -> 08:03.280] that risk they wouldn't be productive and if they're not productive the business wouldn't
[08:03.280 -> 08:07.480] be successful. So there was an economic as well as a social issue here.
[08:07.480 -> 08:10.600] So he went out and said that and it was really interesting the feedback I was
[08:10.600 -> 08:14.040] getting through whatsapp, through text, through email was no one believed me because
[08:14.040 -> 08:18.160] they didn't believe I could ever make that call. I did an interview with Ian
[08:18.160 -> 08:23.080] King on Sky actually in my road in Richmond. I got their local van to come
[08:23.080 -> 08:28.080] around because no one was doing anything in studios then and I also did it in the Daily Mail and by doing that I
[08:28.080 -> 08:32.280] realized that I could reach my people through their friends and family and
[08:32.280 -> 08:35.300] once their friends and family were saying to them well your boss has just
[08:35.300 -> 08:39.200] said on Sky and in the Daily Mail you're job safe and our productivity although
[08:39.200 -> 08:43.360] we had five or six months which was pretty tough our productivity actually
[08:43.360 -> 08:49.560] stayed quite stable and then when the business came back six months, which was pretty tough, our productivity actually stayed quite stable. And then when the business came back, six months, nine months later, we had a full complement
[08:49.560 -> 08:53.240] of staff to address it. And the second half of the year ended up being quite successful.
[08:53.240 -> 08:56.520] So there isn't a playbook for a lot of the stuff we're dealing with today as leaders.
[08:56.520 -> 09:01.920] And as you know, Kevin, lots of leaders, lots of small business owners, lots of entrepreneurs
[09:01.920 -> 09:06.720] listen to this podcast. And I think sometimes they feel slightly alone when it comes to the fear around running their
[09:06.720 -> 09:08.600] own business and being responsible.
[09:08.600 -> 09:11.760] Would you mind just sharing with us what your fear was like at that point?
[09:11.760 -> 09:14.680] Because one of my side hustles is a production company.
[09:14.680 -> 09:18.320] We have about 300 people, not even remotely close to the size of your business.
[09:18.320 -> 09:21.160] We had a conversation and we said we could be gone within three months.
[09:21.160 -> 09:23.240] The fear gripped me completely.
[09:23.240 -> 09:28.360] I thought 10 years we've built this business up and it could go in three months. I mean, your business is an awful
[09:28.360 -> 09:32.500] lot bigger and an awful lot older. So when you finally looked at the balance sheet and
[09:32.500 -> 09:35.660] looked at the way the world was heading, how much fear was there, if any, and how did you
[09:35.660 -> 09:36.660] control it?
[09:36.660 -> 09:40.100] It was such a strange time when we look back on it. I mean, we're all turning the TV on
[09:40.100 -> 09:43.180] at five o'clock at night to hear the prime minister talk about how many people died that
[09:43.180 -> 09:48.000] day. I mean, we were in such strange times. When I look back on it, it kind of doesn't seem real,
[09:48.000 -> 09:53.600] does it? And that fear effectively calls us really to sit around the ball table. No one person is
[09:53.600 -> 09:58.800] ever right on these things and the importance of your board or whoever you turn to for advice is
[09:58.800 -> 10:02.880] really important because no one's the smartest person in the room. It's kind of an opportunity
[10:02.880 -> 10:06.280] really to get everyone's views and we kind of looked at our balance sheet,
[10:06.280 -> 10:08.800] we looked at our cashflow, we borrowed some more money.
[10:08.800 -> 10:10.320] So we did all we could, we thought,
[10:10.320 -> 10:11.760] to kind of shore up the business.
[10:11.760 -> 10:12.960] Then we said, right, okay,
[10:12.960 -> 10:15.360] if we've got 25,000 people sitting at home,
[10:15.360 -> 10:17.360] not working because they're looking for jobs,
[10:17.360 -> 10:19.160] then we can't work for our clients.
[10:19.160 -> 10:23.560] So how do we logically give them the comfort they need?
[10:23.560 -> 10:25.120] And that's where we came up with the idea,
[10:25.120 -> 10:27.160] look, this can't go on more than four or five months.
[10:27.160 -> 10:28.840] We've got enough cashflow for four or five months.
[10:28.840 -> 10:29.960] If this really does,
[10:29.960 -> 10:33.320] revenue and profit drops completely down to virtually zero.
[10:33.320 -> 10:34.320] And in four or five months,
[10:34.320 -> 10:37.720] that must be a reasonable kind of estimate of what we can do.
[10:37.720 -> 10:40.360] So it was guesswork and therefore it was frightening,
[10:40.360 -> 10:43.080] but the alternative was not to give that assurance
[10:43.080 -> 10:45.000] and take the risk that my more talented people
[10:45.000 -> 10:48.860] would literally stop work and start phoning around for jobs.
[10:48.860 -> 10:52.120] And that would have been catastrophic for us and catastrophic for our clients.
[10:52.120 -> 10:56.280] Our clients needed us to sign audits, they needed us to carry on doing deals, they needed
[10:56.280 -> 10:58.240] our advice on their cash flow problems too.
[10:58.240 -> 11:02.080] So we've got 26,000 clients, they were going to take our lead too.
[11:02.080 -> 11:06.260] So I thought it was an opportunity really, if we looked confident and brave,
[11:06.260 -> 11:07.520] that would probably help our clients
[11:07.520 -> 11:09.240] and give them some kind of comfort.
[11:09.240 -> 11:11.320] So there was a kind of social responsibility to that too,
[11:11.320 -> 11:12.800] as well as the economic one.
[11:12.800 -> 11:16.220] I'm interested how you deal with making huge decisions
[11:16.220 -> 11:18.880] that impact the lives of tens of thousands of people,
[11:18.880 -> 11:21.160] because everyone has imposter syndrome.
[11:21.160 -> 11:23.160] Everyone feels like they're kind of making it up
[11:23.160 -> 11:24.720] as they go along to a certain extent.
[11:24.720 -> 11:26.780] And there'll be a large part of you that is,
[11:26.780 -> 11:28.900] you know, the same Kevin that grew up in East London
[11:28.900 -> 11:31.160] and you maybe get a sense of that boy and think,
[11:31.160 -> 11:32.720] how is that boy from East London
[11:32.720 -> 11:35.560] making these huge decisions that impact so many lives?
[11:35.560 -> 11:36.920] How do you cope with that?
[11:36.920 -> 11:37.840] One of the most important things
[11:37.840 -> 11:39.380] is putting the right people around you.
[11:39.380 -> 11:43.520] Everyone has their own blind spots and their own weaknesses.
[11:43.520 -> 11:45.600] So I never feel totally on my own.
[11:45.600 -> 11:48.760] I always feel that there's a group that's making a decision.
[11:48.760 -> 11:49.680] And I think if you like,
[11:49.680 -> 11:51.080] one of the big responsibilities as a leader
[11:51.080 -> 11:52.760] is put the right people around you.
[11:52.760 -> 11:55.160] It's really important to tell people
[11:55.160 -> 11:57.760] what you want from them and what the risks are.
[11:57.760 -> 11:58.760] You've got to be upbeat
[11:58.760 -> 12:00.760] because you've got to show the kind of sunny uplands
[12:00.760 -> 12:02.360] because at the end of the day, as a leader,
[12:02.360 -> 12:04.200] people want confidence from you,
[12:04.200 -> 12:06.440] but you've got to be authentic and honest so when you get it wrong you
[12:06.440 -> 12:09.840] put your hand up and say look that isn't right now we're changing
[12:09.840 -> 12:13.600] direction and that has happened to me and that's tough. So what are your blind
[12:13.600 -> 12:17.760] spots then Kevin and again how do you remedy against them? I'm not as strong
[12:17.760 -> 12:21.160] at being a complete to finisher I'm just not as good on the detail I get
[12:21.160 -> 12:25.760] distracted quite easily I've got quite a low attention span. Whether I'm choosing my board
[12:25.760 -> 12:29.120] or even when I'm choosing my chief of staff around me,
[12:29.120 -> 12:32.040] the first skill is making sure that I'm choosing someone
[12:32.040 -> 12:33.920] that is naturally a complete to finisher
[12:33.920 -> 12:35.520] and is always gonna hold me to account.
[12:35.520 -> 12:38.040] You know, we do quite a lot of formal presentations
[12:38.040 -> 12:40.360] in my job, you know, we could do a partner meeting
[12:40.360 -> 12:42.000] for 950 partners soon.
[12:42.000 -> 12:43.960] I won't rush to do rehearsals for it,
[12:43.960 -> 12:45.640] but I've got to have someone holding me account to that and they've got to make sure they book it in and I won't rush to do rehearsals for it, but I've
[12:44.240 -> 12:46.880] got to have someone holding me account
[12:45.640 -> 12:48.360] to that, and they've got to make sure
[12:46.880 -> 12:50.320] they book it in and I turn up and I do
[12:48.360 -> 12:52.080] rehearse, rather than I try and do it
[12:50.320 -> 12:53.920] because I think I'll get away with it.
[12:52.080 -> 12:55.400] So I think being honest with
[12:53.920 -> 12:56.800] what you're not good at and making sure
[12:55.400 -> 12:59.120] there's someone there to kind of hold the
[12:56.800 -> 13:00.880] mirror up. See, and that's really impressive
[12:59.120 -> 13:03.240] level of self-awareness, but I can
[13:00.880 -> 13:06.120] imagine that the higher up you go and in
[13:03.240 -> 13:07.440] your position position that people
[13:04.560 -> 13:09.200] often feel maybe intimidated or don't
[13:07.440 -> 13:12.120] feel that they can give you that
[13:09.200 -> 13:14.000] feedback or hold you to account. So how
[13:12.120 -> 13:16.480] do you create that culture around you
[13:14.000 -> 13:19.040] where people do feel they can give you
[13:16.480 -> 13:20.880] unvarnished feedback? We've got obviously
[13:19.040 -> 13:23.400] formal processes in place as you'd
[13:20.880 -> 13:25.160] expect where we have someone go around and
[13:23.400 -> 13:29.040] interview every board member and it's noted for who said what. I do find myself distracted by a telephone. I have to
[13:29.040 -> 13:32.240] move the telephone away from me now as I'm speaking to you because if someone texts me
[13:32.240 -> 13:36.560] I do feel a need to look at it. You know no one's perfect and I think the important thing is being
[13:36.560 -> 13:41.520] respectful when people give you valid feedback that probably is hard to read and hard to take
[13:41.520 -> 13:46.000] on board. We all get it at home I'm sure from our
[13:44.400 -> 13:47.880] closest family but I think it's
[13:46.000 -> 13:49.640] important for people to see that no one's
[13:47.880 -> 13:51.000] perfect. It's not about being the
[13:49.640 -> 13:52.680] brightest person in the room it's about
[13:51.000 -> 13:53.760] listening to the brightest person in the
[13:52.680 -> 13:56.200] room when you're making the decisions.
[13:53.760 -> 13:58.560] So given your stellar career then
[13:56.200 -> 14:00.360] what's the one piece of feedback that
[13:58.560 -> 14:02.840] you've received that has had the
[14:00.360 -> 14:05.320] biggest impact on your success? Different
[14:02.840 -> 14:05.160] time zones if I'm honest with you.
[14:05.160 -> 14:07.880] So probably at the start of my career,
[14:07.880 -> 14:10.080] I didn't have probably the self-confidence
[14:10.080 -> 14:11.800] that I needed to keep progressing.
[14:11.800 -> 14:14.400] So I was always quietly, slightly in awe
[14:14.400 -> 14:16.400] of those who were better educated than me,
[14:16.400 -> 14:18.840] that had better exam qualifications than me.
[14:18.840 -> 14:21.320] And therefore, some of the time it needed,
[14:21.320 -> 14:23.240] if you like, mentors around me to say,
[14:23.240 -> 14:24.760] keep giving your point of view,
[14:24.760 -> 14:26.360] keep contributing in meetings,
[14:26.360 -> 14:29.480] don't be kind of spooked by the smarter people around you.
[14:29.480 -> 14:31.260] You know, everyone's got a point of view.
[14:31.260 -> 14:34.160] As I've gone up through the organization,
[14:34.160 -> 14:36.400] probably had a higher profile.
[14:36.400 -> 14:38.480] People say to me, and I remember being told once,
[14:38.480 -> 14:40.000] you know, remember everyone's listening to you
[14:40.000 -> 14:41.540] and looking at you in the Lyft,
[14:41.540 -> 14:42.800] because they know who you are.
[14:42.800 -> 14:48.600] And if you then go into a Lyft and you get distracted by your phone and you text people, the message you're sending to everyone in the lift because they know who you are and if you then go into a lift and you get distracted by your phone and you text people the message
[14:48.600 -> 14:51.560] you're sending to everyone in the lift is that your phone is more interesting than
[14:51.560 -> 14:55.360] them and that's probably the only time they're ever gonna see you. So I often
[14:55.360 -> 14:58.120] share this advice with other people and they always remind me I've told them. I'd
[14:58.120 -> 15:03.040] really try very hard never to have my phone out outside of my office or on a
[15:03.040 -> 15:05.280] train or in the car. Now when I heard
[15:05.280 -> 15:08.400] the piece, first piece of advice, I didn't really believe it but then I could
[15:08.400 -> 15:12.000] remember the number of times when I was more junior that to be ignored by
[15:12.000 -> 15:15.160] someone senior was actually really demotivating.
[15:15.160 -> 15:18.960] When you're the senior person I don't think you notice it, I think that's the danger isn't it?
[15:18.960 -> 15:21.720] You don't feel like you're ignoring people, you feel like you're, you know,
[15:21.720 -> 15:26.680] answering a text that can transform the business but you know that, they don't, they just think they've been ignored. It reminds
[15:26.680 -> 15:30.300] me as well, Kevin, when we had Eddie Jones on the podcast, and he said that he had to
[15:30.300 -> 15:34.960] learn that every single thing he does has an impact, even if he does nothing, that still
[15:34.960 -> 15:37.720] has an impact on me, because his players are thinking, why is he ignoring me? Why has he
[15:37.720 -> 15:41.440] left the room and not spoken? It's a really important lesson, I think, that for leaders,
[15:41.440 -> 15:42.440] isn't it?
[15:42.440 -> 15:45.720] The only thing you can't see in the room is your pace. You need others to tell you the
[15:45.720 -> 15:49.560] expression is the body language, the message you're sending, so it's not just verbal. And
[15:49.560 -> 15:53.840] it's even comes down to, you know, what you wear a certain days. We're doing this thing
[15:53.840 -> 15:57.720] over the summer where we're encouraging people to go home at lunchtime on Fridays. I'm in
[15:57.720 -> 16:01.920] the office on a Friday, so I'm wearing casual clothes because I'm trying to give obviously
[16:01.920 -> 16:04.960] off that impression. I mean, you do have to think about these things. Everyone's looking
[16:04.960 -> 16:06.160] at you for a lead.
[16:06.160 -> 16:07.960] And explain how you work out that that's
[16:07.960 -> 16:09.400] the right thing for your business
[16:09.400 -> 16:10.880] because obviously we've all seen the
[16:10.880 -> 16:13.000] quotes from Sir Alan Sugar saying this
[16:13.000 -> 16:14.920] work from home bullshit I think was the
[16:14.920 -> 16:16.520] phrase that he chose to use when talking
[16:16.520 -> 16:18.360] about you know the drive from people
[16:18.360 -> 16:20.460] like you and PwC to work from home. Can
[16:20.460 -> 16:21.840] you explain to us how you decide that
[16:21.840 -> 16:23.560] that is the right thing for the business
[16:23.560 -> 16:24.800] because lots of our listeners are
[16:24.800 -> 16:25.480] looking for
[16:25.480 -> 16:30.660] Ways to engage and empower and kind of add a spark to their working environments and their staff
[16:31.360 -> 16:36.300] September I've got 2,000 new joiners from school from colleges and from University
[16:36.300 -> 16:42.080] So for them to actually progress they're joining for the human contact of the office
[16:42.080 -> 16:45.700] I want everyone in the office at least three days a week. It's hybrid.
[16:45.700 -> 16:47.980] Presenteeism is gone, that's dead forever.
[16:47.980 -> 16:49.960] So the jacket on the back of the chair is kind of gone.
[16:49.960 -> 16:51.960] But I think that human contact,
[16:51.960 -> 16:53.900] the serendipity of innovation,
[16:53.900 -> 16:55.540] the learning by observation,
[16:55.540 -> 16:57.300] the mental health benefit of having your mates
[16:57.300 -> 16:58.540] alongside you in the office,
[16:58.540 -> 17:00.060] all those things absolutely critical
[17:00.060 -> 17:01.160] for a business like mine.
[17:01.160 -> 17:03.980] And for making judgments, judgments are better,
[17:03.980 -> 17:05.360] whether it's signing an audit
[17:05.360 -> 17:06.440] or giving advice.
[17:06.440 -> 17:09.840] I want everyone in the team to have an equal voice
[17:09.840 -> 17:11.640] and virtual, that doesn't happen.
[17:11.640 -> 17:14.240] It's very hierarchical because it becomes quite binary.
[17:14.240 -> 17:15.440] So it's really important, I think,
[17:15.440 -> 17:16.440] to be in the office three days a week.
[17:16.440 -> 17:17.680] So we've been very outspoken.
[17:17.680 -> 17:19.560] We've given the guide rails out there to our people.
[17:19.560 -> 17:21.720] We want you in three days a week and we monitor it.
[17:21.720 -> 17:24.040] What we decided in the summer was that, again,
[17:24.040 -> 17:30.020] very young workforce, we are a little bit all hooked on not switching off and it was about giving
[17:30.020 -> 17:34.440] people permission to switch off. What we're saying to them is Friday afternoon, if he's
[17:34.440 -> 17:39.760] not critical for a client, we'd like everyone to switch off, go home, be with their family,
[17:39.760 -> 17:43.320] do their hobbies, do anything else. What we find is we don't give people permission to
[17:43.320 -> 17:47.940] switch off, they don't. Again, it's partly mental health, it's partly encouraging
[17:47.940 -> 17:52.840] people to balance their lives better rather than in our kind of world people
[17:52.840 -> 17:55.900] can just work seven days a week and that's not good for us as a business
[17:55.900 -> 17:59.020] because they're less productive. But what intrigues me most about that though
[17:59.020 -> 18:02.940] Kevin is that you've grown up in a very different world where that presenteeism
[18:02.940 -> 18:06.080] this idea of being
[18:04.560 -> 18:08.640] the hardest worker in the room
[18:06.080 -> 18:10.800] has brought you such success in your
[18:08.640 -> 18:13.280] career. So it seems to me that it takes
[18:10.800 -> 18:15.680] real courage to pursue a different path
[18:13.280 -> 18:17.080] that has led you to be successful. Like
[18:15.680 -> 18:18.240] you've outlined the pros in terms of
[18:17.080 -> 18:20.880] mental health benefits and
[18:18.240 -> 18:23.880] productivity. What are the cons around
[18:20.880 -> 18:25.880] that that give you pause for thought? Yeah
[18:23.880 -> 18:27.360] it's difficult that one because we tried this last summer for two months
[18:27.360 -> 18:32.240] and when I asked people for feedback it was muted. People didn't think it worked.
[18:32.240 -> 18:37.760] We did a survey of our people, 76% were positive about it. So some of the time you've got to be a
[18:37.760 -> 18:43.280] bit careful about the bubble effect. So quite a lot of what we've done, we've done through survey,
[18:43.280 -> 18:46.600] we've done through asking
[18:44.880 -> 18:47.920] people how engaged they are, asking
[18:46.600 -> 18:48.880] people if they're about to leave, asking
[18:47.920 -> 18:50.680] people whether they recommend the
[18:48.880 -> 18:52.960] organization and that gives you quite key
[18:50.680 -> 18:55.640] data on what matters. You've got to
[18:52.960 -> 18:57.440] constantly take the temperature. But one
[18:55.640 -> 18:59.160] key thing that we've had from a lot of
[18:57.440 -> 19:01.040] leaders that we've interviewed on the
[18:59.160 -> 19:03.400] High Performance Podcast has been this
[19:01.040 -> 19:06.080] quiet courage to take a path less
[19:03.400 -> 19:05.520] trodden, to try an idea that nobody else has been this quiet courage to take a
[19:02.720 -> 19:07.680] path less trodden, to try an idea that
[19:05.520 -> 19:10.920] nobody else is doing, to innovate. How did
[19:07.680 -> 19:13.920] you develop the courage then to, beyond the
[19:10.920 -> 19:16.080] surveys, to try this path less trodden
[19:13.920 -> 19:18.040] and to go down this different way of
[19:16.080 -> 19:19.360] working that the deal offers? I wouldn't
[19:18.040 -> 19:20.640] want to say it's my idea, I think it's
[19:19.360 -> 19:22.320] probably other people's idea around me,
[19:20.640 -> 19:24.840] again going back to the board. For me
[19:22.320 -> 19:26.840] it's about giving air cover to other
[19:24.840 -> 19:25.200] people's
[19:25.200 -> 19:29.680] ideas as much as being the source of the idea myself. And again we're in a war for talent right
[19:29.680 -> 19:35.520] we have a kind of turnover ideally 13 or 14 percent a year sometimes up in the 17 percent.
[19:35.520 -> 19:41.200] We know that generation Y are going to probably look for more portfolio career and our success is
[19:41.200 -> 19:45.680] holding on to developing and training talent. So we're always in look for new
[19:45.680 -> 19:49.920] ideas that makes us a more attractive destination, whether it's publishing our diversity and
[19:49.920 -> 19:53.760] inclusion and our diversity inclusion stance, whether it's our stance around social mobility.
[19:53.760 -> 19:59.200] If I can get a more diverse, talented workforce, I'll make more money and be more successful with
[19:59.200 -> 20:03.200] clients. I want to just change tack slightly on the conversation if you don't mind, I want to
[20:03.200 -> 20:07.920] talk to you about playing to win. Overall, we do play to win. We plan to be a successful
[20:07.920 -> 20:15.440] organisation. I mean everything that lies behind it, whether it's our stance on recruitment or
[20:15.440 -> 20:20.080] Friday afternoons off, we think net-net is the right thing for our organisation.
[20:20.080 -> 20:29.040] Just as an example, we're the number one social mobility employer, kind of determined externally. My 26,000 clients come from family-owned businesses, they come from startups,
[20:29.040 -> 20:33.760] they come from right across the UK and right across the demographic of the UK.
[20:33.760 -> 20:37.200] And if we're a business that doesn't have people that look like,
[20:37.200 -> 20:40.640] sound like or share the same values as those people, we'd be irrelevant.
[20:40.640 -> 20:43.920] So, you know, the social mobility thing is the right thing to do societally,
[20:43.920 -> 20:47.400] but actually it makes economic sense too. My overall objective
[20:47.400 -> 20:50.320] is to play to win because we've got to be successful as a business to carry on
[20:50.320 -> 20:54.080] investing. I see that. I saw a lovely quote from you saying business is about
[20:54.080 -> 20:58.320] sustaining an economy, not about winning. I suppose the point there is sustaining
[20:58.320 -> 21:01.400] the economy is the thing that can also lead to the win, so you can make the
[21:01.400 -> 21:06.000] right decision which can lead to the win rather than the focus solely being on the win.
[21:06.000 -> 21:07.080] Would that be fair?
[21:07.080 -> 21:09.520] Again, we've been around this business for over 170 years,
[21:09.520 -> 21:11.040] because it's a long-term play.
[21:11.040 -> 21:13.800] So sometimes that investment today
[21:13.800 -> 21:15.800] will be for the success five or 10 years from now,
[21:15.800 -> 21:16.920] after my time.
[21:16.920 -> 21:19.320] So it's about, as I say, that whole legacy point
[21:19.320 -> 21:20.600] links into the play to win.
[21:20.600 -> 21:23.240] It's a long-term win, not the short-term win.
[21:23.240 -> 21:24.080] I think sometimes, you know,
[21:24.080 -> 21:25.880] we have a conversation with someone in your position and they're
[21:25.880 -> 21:30.180] actually they're nervous about answering questions about their failings or their struggles or
[21:30.180 -> 21:33.320] their fears or when times are tough. They just want to talk about the good things because
[21:33.320 -> 21:37.920] they just want to spread that strong message. You're really positive. And I see a lot of
[21:37.920 -> 21:41.280] leaders kind of they almost thrive with the negative. They look for the fault. They look
[21:41.280 -> 21:45.440] for the problem. They look for the issue thinking that's going to solve all the problems.
[21:45.440 -> 21:49.160] Do you believe to be the best leader you can be, it's about being far more positive than
[21:49.160 -> 21:50.160] it is negative?
[21:50.160 -> 21:51.160] Definitely.
[21:51.160 -> 21:52.160] I mean, you've got to create energy.
[21:52.160 -> 21:57.040] We've got a lot of technically gifted people and sometimes with technically gifted people,
[21:57.040 -> 22:00.920] you can see the negative quite early because that's kind of comes with the gift, if you
[22:00.920 -> 22:01.920] like.
[22:01.920 -> 22:08.240] And so therefore, amongst my people, I have to have more energy givers than energy sappers and I always talk about that I always talk
[22:08.240 -> 22:11.400] about you know if we're trying to develop top talent and bring people
[22:11.400 -> 22:15.960] through then what you don't want is an old wise person in the room can't say
[22:15.960 -> 22:18.880] oh yeah we tried that five years ago and it didn't work because then you kill
[22:18.880 -> 22:22.600] that conversation you kill that energy so to be successful I need that
[22:22.600 -> 22:28.120] technical skill I have to have more energy givers and energy sappers and I talk about that openly with the
[22:28.120 -> 22:31.920] partnership, with the directors, with the junior staff, with the new joiners and
[22:31.920 -> 22:35.480] again I find it really helpful as well. I always make sure that I do at least one
[22:35.480 -> 22:38.880] of the big new joiner events when we've got 600 people who've just left school,
[22:38.880 -> 22:43.120] university, traveled the world, worked in pubs, I do their very first welcome as
[22:43.120 -> 22:47.440] well as do the new partners welcome as well as the retiring, because I find by taking the temperature of
[22:47.440 -> 22:49.440] different cohorts, I get new ideas.
[22:49.440 -> 22:52.480] Can I just ask one quick question on that, if you don't mind? And I don't want this to
[22:52.480 -> 22:56.920] sound cheeky, because people have had to work hard to get into your business and to be in
[22:56.920 -> 23:00.480] front of you, with you on the stage, Kevin, delivering your thoughts. But I think for
[23:00.480 -> 23:04.440] our listeners, it would be really helpful, both for our listeners who are leaders, and
[23:04.440 -> 23:06.460] our listeners who are led by someone.
[23:06.460 -> 23:08.260] What do you choose to say to people
[23:08.260 -> 23:10.180] when you stand on that stage for the first time?
[23:10.180 -> 23:11.300] What is the line?
[23:11.300 -> 23:13.100] What is the message of the first
[23:13.100 -> 23:16.160] or maybe the last thing you say that you know hits home?
[23:16.160 -> 23:18.940] Just so that some of our listeners can steal it probably.
[23:18.940 -> 23:20.020] I'll give you two angles.
[23:20.020 -> 23:22.540] The first one is about networks.
[23:22.540 -> 23:24.740] So if you imagine I've got 600 people
[23:24.740 -> 23:26.540] in a kind of theater kind of style,
[23:26.540 -> 23:27.900] but in table groups.
[23:27.900 -> 23:29.180] And I always say to them, right,
[23:29.180 -> 23:32.780] one of the strangest things is I can assure you
[23:32.780 -> 23:35.980] that you will know at least one or two people on that table
[23:35.980 -> 23:38.660] that you're sat on now, 15 or 20 years from now,
[23:38.660 -> 23:40.220] whether you stay at this firm or not,
[23:40.220 -> 23:41.580] it's just a way of life.
[23:41.580 -> 23:43.180] They'll be your best man, your bridesmaid,
[23:43.180 -> 23:44.540] they might even be your spouse.
[23:44.540 -> 23:47.040] And the number of people that relay that story to me
[23:47.040 -> 23:49.600] 10 or 15 years on, that it came true.
[23:49.600 -> 23:51.200] But what I was trying to do is make the point
[23:51.200 -> 23:53.280] that success comes from networks,
[23:53.280 -> 23:55.440] making friends, that human contact,
[23:55.440 -> 23:57.120] and it starts on day one.
[23:57.120 -> 23:58.960] That's the success of our organizations.
[23:58.960 -> 24:00.240] That's where I kind of start.
[24:00.240 -> 24:01.760] The other point is I do a Q&A
[24:01.760 -> 24:03.200] for about 20 minutes at the end.
[24:03.200 -> 24:14.000] And I always say the best Q&A I ever do is the new joiners on day one because they're totally unfiltered and you'll get questions there that you'll never ever get any other time with any other group in the firm.
[24:14.000 -> 24:25.880] And I remember about three years ago I had 600 people in the room and I can remember virtually the table this lady was sat on right at the back in the far right hand corner and she put her hand up and she said, I've heard everything you've talked about.
[24:25.880 -> 24:27.480] You mentioned mental health a few times.
[24:27.480 -> 24:29.120] So go on, what are you really doing
[24:29.120 -> 24:30.880] to help people with mental health issues?
[24:30.880 -> 24:32.800] And I kind of reflected on that.
[24:32.800 -> 24:35.160] How brave, your very first day at work,
[24:35.160 -> 24:36.480] you're brave enough to put your hand up
[24:36.480 -> 24:38.840] in front of 600 peers and ask the chairman
[24:38.840 -> 24:40.480] a question like that on mental health.
[24:40.480 -> 24:42.440] Can you imagine that happening 10 years ago?
[24:42.440 -> 24:44.280] So for me, it was an evidence that, you know,
[24:44.280 -> 24:49.920] the world's changing, people are braver and they're willing to challenge and I use that story as well.
[24:49.920 -> 24:53.520] I also use a number of people that have asked me about imposter syndrome, you mentioned that earlier.
[24:53.520 -> 24:57.840] I think it's really positive you know we all get imposter syndrome, I got it walking in here today
[24:57.840 -> 25:01.680] to talk to you guys. You know we all have imposter syndrome and I think being honest about it and
[25:01.680 -> 25:05.960] being honest that mental health is a real issue in everyone's lives, every family's lives.
[25:05.960 -> 25:10.160] And I think it helps people being open about it and that helps them find ways to help themselves.
[25:10.160 -> 25:13.280] So, what is your relationship like then with imposter syndrome?
[25:13.280 -> 25:18.440] Do you accept it, embrace it and kind of realise it will always be there and more so the more
[25:18.440 -> 25:19.440] successful you are?
[25:19.440 -> 25:20.440] Or do you try and fight it?
[25:20.440 -> 25:24.560] I think rehearsing makes a big difference and thinking about things in advance and thinking
[25:24.560 -> 25:29.440] about your audience in advance, it stops the risk of being too vanilla. I think the imposter
[25:29.440 -> 25:33.200] syndrome does drive you on because you're worried about it. And if you're worried about
[25:33.200 -> 25:38.320] it, you try and do whatever you can to ease that worry by thinking about it in advance.
[25:38.320 -> 25:43.320] You know, I was just thinking about Kevin, right? So you joined PwC in 1984 and that
[25:43.320 -> 25:49.440] would have been such a different world to the world that we're in now. So now we're in a post-pandemic era, we're in a work from home era, we're in an
[25:49.440 -> 25:54.080] era where social mobility is being talked about, where mental health is being talked about, where
[25:54.080 -> 25:58.560] your job, as much as it's to make money, it's to lift people up. I kind of get the impression that
[25:58.560 -> 26:03.280] you are far more comfortable, or you've learned to be more comfortable in this kind of modern
[26:03.280 -> 26:06.560] world than perhaps the world that you would have walked into in 1984 which would
[26:06.560 -> 26:10.720] have been very male-heavy, probably pretty macho, probably quite tough and
[26:10.720 -> 26:14.440] quite difficult and hard. Is that fair? Do you feel comfortable in the modern world?
[26:14.440 -> 26:20.040] You certainly seem it. I think both the social mobility and the meritocracy that
[26:20.040 -> 26:28.200] exists today and that sense of fairness probably suited someone like me, probably than some of my peers at the time and that's why I think I probably
[26:28.200 -> 26:32.440] push those things out there myself because I want to work for us like that.
[26:32.440 -> 26:36.000] Why is fairness so important? If you look at it from an economic point of view for
[26:36.000 -> 26:40.080] our business, I want people looking in on the firm from outside to think that
[26:40.080 -> 26:43.960] this is a place I can work and I can bring the best of myself to work every
[26:43.960 -> 26:46.920] day. I'm not gonna be, gotta be someone that I'm not.
[26:46.920 -> 26:48.440] And therefore they'd want to work here
[26:48.440 -> 26:49.720] and apply for a job here.
[26:49.720 -> 26:51.360] And again, we're like a talent factory
[26:51.360 -> 26:52.720] and I want those people to come here.
[26:52.720 -> 26:54.840] At the same time, quite a lot of my clients,
[26:54.840 -> 26:56.280] when you talk to them,
[26:56.280 -> 26:57.720] they're worried about the same issues
[26:57.720 -> 26:58.920] that all of us are worried about
[26:58.920 -> 27:00.680] and our parents and children are worried about.
[27:00.680 -> 27:03.540] And a lot of that all comes down to trust and fairness.
[27:03.540 -> 27:04.760] I think you've gotta be transparent
[27:04.760 -> 27:06.560] and that plays to a business like mine. At the end
[27:06.560 -> 27:10.420] of the day if society is fair and companies are fair then people feel they
[27:10.420 -> 27:13.740] get a fair chance that makes you attractive as a place to retain and
[27:13.740 -> 27:18.120] recruit talent to. You're also a father so how much of what we've been talking
[27:18.120 -> 27:22.320] about today in your professional capacity would your children recognize?
[27:22.320 -> 27:27.800] When you're doing a job like mine you're not around as much as some of the other people's parents, say sporting occasions
[27:27.800 -> 27:31.760] or certain events, so there is a price to be paid and you've got to be honest
[27:31.760 -> 27:34.560] about that. But again strange things happened, I was on a train the other day
[27:34.560 -> 27:38.480] going to a Spurs game and my boys are quite big so we was kind of squeezed
[27:38.480 -> 27:42.200] onto a train going out of Richmond up to Highbury and Islington. A little young lad
[27:42.200 -> 27:45.600] sitting next to me so I I apologised to him and
[27:44.200 -> 27:47.520] he immediately said, oh I work for you,
[27:45.600 -> 27:49.160] I'm from Leeds office, and he proceeded
[27:47.520 -> 27:50.320] to tell me a story about how he joined
[27:49.160 -> 27:51.600] the firm and everything else. When we got
[27:50.320 -> 27:54.080] off at Highbury & Islington, my
[27:51.600 -> 27:56.520] youngest, Sam, who's 14, said, did you know
[27:54.080 -> 27:58.600] him? I said, no. So he said, so why did you
[27:56.520 -> 28:00.440] talk to him for the entire journey? I
[27:58.600 -> 28:02.520] said, can you imagine if you started a
[28:00.440 -> 28:04.520] conversation with your boss randomly on a
[28:02.520 -> 28:06.680] train and he ignored you, how'd you feel?
[28:04.520 -> 28:05.840] He said, oh I'll get that, I'll get that. started a conversation with your boss randomly on a train and he ignored you, how
[28:04.160 -> 28:07.560] do you feel? You say, I'll get that, I'll
[28:05.840 -> 28:09.360] get that. Really good, really
[28:07.560 -> 28:10.600] interesting stuff. You know what Damien,
[28:09.360 -> 28:12.160] having this conversation with Kevin
[28:10.600 -> 28:15.120] reminds me of the phrase, if you're not
[28:12.160 -> 28:17.400] agile you'll be fragile. I like that, a lot of
[28:15.120 -> 28:19.520] what Kevin's spoken about reminds me of the
[28:17.400 -> 28:21.320] anti-fragile idea that some
[28:19.520 -> 28:24.880] organizations when they hit difficult
[28:21.320 -> 28:26.440] times are fragile, some that are robust but
[28:24.880 -> 28:25.280] there's also some that are robust but there's also
[28:25.280 -> 28:29.480] organizations that are anti-fragile that when you meet difficult times you can
[28:29.480 -> 28:33.080] come out of it stronger and more robust and I think that a lot of what you've
[28:33.080 -> 28:36.680] spoken about as a leader and this approach that you have towards the deal
[28:36.680 -> 28:40.360] is putting you in a position where you're actually anti-fragile. Yeah I
[28:40.360 -> 28:43.360] think that also fits in the thing about what we do as a business and we're there
[28:43.360 -> 28:49.080] to advise clients going through change, transformation, and sometimes crisis.
[28:49.080 -> 28:52.960] So if you like, it does kind of fit with what, if you like what it says on the tin, that
[28:52.960 -> 28:53.960] makes sense.
[28:53.960 -> 28:56.640] And actually, that leads us nicely, Kevin, to our quickfire questions.
[28:56.640 -> 28:58.280] And I'm going to change the first one.
[28:58.280 -> 29:00.960] And I'm going to swap it with number three, because it plays nice into what you were just
[29:00.960 -> 29:02.120] talking about there with Damien.
[29:02.120 -> 29:07.640] The first question I quickfire round is, where were you?
[29:04.440 -> 29:10.080] Where are you? And where are you going?
[29:07.640 -> 29:11.520] Where was I? Well I think I was starting out
[29:10.080 -> 29:13.520] in a career and I wanted to get a
[29:11.520 -> 29:16.320] certificate, that's why I joined here. Where
[29:13.520 -> 29:18.800] I am now, I'm having a brilliant time
[29:16.320 -> 29:21.000] running an amazing business, going through
[29:18.800 -> 29:23.080] amazing change and learning every day.
[29:21.000 -> 29:25.160] And where will I be? I'd like to be in a
[29:23.080 -> 29:26.120] position where I can
[29:24.040 -> 29:28.040] share, not in an arrogant way, but just share
[29:26.120 -> 29:30.240] some of the learnings as a mentor to
[29:28.040 -> 29:33.120] other smaller companies in the future. I
[29:30.240 -> 29:35.240] do enjoy challenges, change,
[29:33.120 -> 29:36.840] transformation, but most of all I enjoy
[29:35.240 -> 29:38.960] the human contact of helping other
[29:36.840 -> 29:40.360] people learn in different ways. If you
[29:38.960 -> 29:43.040] could go back to one moment of your life
[29:40.360 -> 29:45.040] what would it be and why? Probably actually
[29:43.040 -> 29:46.000] when I first had my
[29:44.320 -> 29:47.840] first child, when we had our daughter Maddy,
[29:46.000 -> 29:49.600] because that you knew was kind of
[29:47.840 -> 29:51.520] transformational in terms of what
[29:49.600 -> 29:53.680] life would be like in the future. The
[29:51.520 -> 29:55.120] difference between being a father and
[29:53.680 -> 29:57.040] not being a father for me was kind of
[29:55.120 -> 29:59.440] quite a big moment. And has it informed how
[29:57.040 -> 30:01.920] you lead? It meant a complete change in
[29:59.440 -> 30:03.840] life and that responsibility changes.
[30:01.920 -> 30:05.360] That was probably a big moment. I look
[30:03.840 -> 30:05.400] back, I was quite late becoming a father.
[30:05.400 -> 30:06.680] I was in my late thirties.
[30:06.680 -> 30:07.800] I suppose a lot of my life,
[30:07.800 -> 30:09.200] I wasn't sure I wasn't have children.
[30:09.200 -> 30:10.480] So that's quite a big change.
[30:10.480 -> 30:12.920] What are your three non-negotiable behaviours
[30:12.920 -> 30:15.960] that you and the people around you need to buy into?
[30:15.960 -> 30:19.640] High performance, not high maintenance.
[30:19.640 -> 30:21.960] Listening, look for the positive.
[30:21.960 -> 30:25.040] What advice would you give to a teenage Kevin starting out?
[30:25.040 -> 30:29.280] Remain confident, don't let anyone else put you down. Your greatest strength and
[30:29.280 -> 30:34.320] your biggest weakness? It is confidence now, it wasn't always, it's confidence now
[30:34.320 -> 30:39.200] and biggest weakness is attention span and being distracted easily. Finally
[30:39.200 -> 30:42.120] Kevin, your kind of one last message really to the people that have listened
[30:42.120 -> 30:47.480] to this brilliant conversation for the last hour or so. Your final message to them for how they can find
[30:47.480 -> 30:50.240] and chase down their own high performance life.
[30:50.240 -> 30:53.760] Complexity is increasing in every single form.
[30:53.760 -> 30:56.880] And as a leader, or in whatever role in life you are,
[30:56.880 -> 30:58.640] always try and keep it simple.
[30:58.640 -> 31:00.360] You can make things more complicated.
[31:00.360 -> 31:03.120] If you can make it simple, it's easier to communicate
[31:03.120 -> 31:05.700] and translate it for everyone watching you.
[31:05.700 -> 31:06.700] It's brilliant.
[31:06.700 -> 31:09.300] Weirdly, the thing I like most about that conversation, and there's lots of things that
[31:09.300 -> 31:12.980] I'll take away from it myself, is that you turn up as a person just wanting a certificate.
[31:12.980 -> 31:16.260] And I think sometimes in life, we get tricked, don't we, into thinking that we have to see
[31:16.260 -> 31:19.900] the end goal, we have to see the finish, we have to see the glorious moment to begin the
[31:19.900 -> 31:20.900] journey.
[31:20.900 -> 31:23.700] And actually, for some people listening to this, Kevin, perhaps the message is just start
[31:23.700 -> 31:25.920] on the journey with a small ambition and then with
[31:25.920 -> 31:29.780] An open mind and a generous heart see where it takes you maybe agreed. Thank you for your time
[31:33.520 -> 31:35.240] Damien J, you know what?
[31:35.240 -> 31:37.580] Obviously we've recorded this over zoom with Kevin
[31:37.580 -> 31:40.880] But I got a real sense of real warmth from him
[31:40.880 -> 31:43.480] Like I think sometimes you can have a business even a thing, right?
[31:43.480 -> 31:46.320] I better really make it sound like I
[31:44.800 -> 31:47.920] care about my people, because that's the
[31:46.320 -> 31:49.440] right thing to say. But actually, I get
[31:47.920 -> 31:51.440] the sense from him that there is no BS
[31:49.440 -> 31:53.760] there. He genuinely is someone who
[31:51.440 -> 31:55.920] realises that, of course, his job is to make
[31:53.760 -> 31:58.480] money and to make PwC a successful
[31:55.920 -> 32:02.320] business, but actually you can get there by
[31:58.480 -> 32:04.800] empowering, lifting, helping, guiding your
[32:02.320 -> 32:06.560] people. Toby Rees-Moggs Definitely. I think that
[32:04.800 -> 32:05.760] first question we asked
[32:05.760 -> 32:09.380] him about how much impact can he have on the bottom line is a really interesting
[32:09.380 -> 32:15.200] one that I think he recognized the idea that actually his impact is more about
[32:15.200 -> 32:18.320] the symbolism of the way that he shows up, the way he behaves, the way he
[32:18.320 -> 32:23.040] interacts and understanding inherently that we're hardwired not to follow
[32:23.040 -> 32:29.600] hypocrites. So his message about being standing in the lift and recognizing that I might have an important phone call I need to do but for
[32:29.600 -> 32:34.540] the dozen people that might be stood there with you, that could be the only time they ever interact with you.
[32:34.540 -> 32:39.200] So being seen that you're engaged, you're interested and that you're essentially a decent man,
[32:39.200 -> 32:44.800] means that people then want to follow you and they're likely to trust you when you have to deliver difficult messages.
[32:44.800 -> 32:46.480] And I think we have to remind ourselves right
[32:46.480 -> 32:50.160] that we live in this ego driven world so we live in a world where we will make an
[32:50.160 -> 32:54.120] opinion on someone based on our own ego, how have they made me feel, what do they
[32:54.120 -> 32:57.200] think of me, what's their opinion of me and I think that when Kevin sits and
[32:57.200 -> 33:00.980] talks in the way he does with an absence of ego and a care for his people it's a
[33:00.980 -> 33:05.920] reminder that it's so easy to say chairman of PWC on an amazing salary in a successful business he must be really full of himself. It's a reminder that it's so easy to say, Chairman of PWC, on an amazing
[33:05.920 -> 33:09.680] salary, in a successful business, he must be really full of himself. It's only when
[33:09.680 -> 33:12.500] you have a conversation like this that you realise that he can still be
[33:12.500 -> 33:16.340] brilliant at all the things that he does. And there is no requirement for him to
[33:16.340 -> 33:21.640] have a huge ego or an arrogance or a sense of superiority. And I think it's
[33:21.640 -> 33:24.760] important that some leaders who do have that, hear that, you know, Kevin's got to
[33:24.760 -> 33:27.000] the top of his game without that and you can get there.
[33:27.000 -> 33:31.600] Yeah, I'd encourage anyone listening to that to listen to the way he spoke about recruiting
[33:31.600 -> 33:36.080] people around him, that self-awareness to know that his blind spot is that he's not
[33:36.080 -> 33:40.280] a complete finisher. So bring somebody in that can hold you to account and help you
[33:40.280 -> 33:45.400] achieve that. You know, none of us is as smart as all of us. So recruiting people
[33:45.400 -> 33:51.140] around you that can pick up your blind spots, your foibles is really important, but that
[33:51.140 -> 33:53.320] requires you to get out your own way.
[33:53.320 -> 33:56.480] And I liked what you said about imposter syndrome. Do you remember when we were about to walk
[33:56.480 -> 34:00.000] on stage for one of our live high performance events and we were like, all these people
[34:00.000 -> 34:03.440] have come to hear about all the things that we've learned and all that we can think of
[34:03.440 -> 34:05.720] right now is all the things that we don't know. It's a good reminder
[34:05.720 -> 34:08.360] that is there for absolutely everybody isn't it?
[34:08.360 -> 34:12.920] Yeah of course and I think just the fact that Kevin spoke about it just as we
[34:12.920 -> 34:16.920] felt it is really important that I think that then creates that common ground
[34:16.920 -> 34:20.120] that everybody's just doing the best they can with what they've got in the
[34:20.120 -> 34:24.160] moment they're in. Sometimes other people might have an opinion on that that isn't
[34:24.160 -> 34:25.560] good enough but we shouldn't let that infect our own view of ourselves. the moment they're in. Sometimes other people might have an opinion on that that
[34:24.080 -> 34:28.360] isn't good enough but we shouldn't let that
[34:25.560 -> 34:31.160] infect our own view of ourselves.
[34:28.360 -> 34:34.800] Thank you so much Damien, top man.
[34:31.160 -> 34:36.400] And that's it, thank you so much for
[34:34.800 -> 34:38.640] coming to these CEO conversations, the
[34:36.400 -> 34:40.480] feedback to them has been fantastic. As
[34:38.640 -> 34:42.800] always I only ask you to do a couple
[34:40.480 -> 34:44.160] of things for us please. Most people that
[34:42.800 -> 34:45.880] listen to this podcast don't
[34:44.160 -> 34:45.080] subscribe to it.
[34:45.080 -> 34:46.620] If you can follow or subscribe us,
[34:46.620 -> 34:47.700] it makes the world of difference.
[34:47.700 -> 34:48.960] It helps us to reach new people.
[34:48.960 -> 34:51.100] It helps to grow these conversations
[34:51.100 -> 34:52.760] and spread them around the world.
[34:52.760 -> 34:54.520] If you can do that, I would be delighted.
[34:54.520 -> 34:56.580] So just click follow, click subscribe,
[34:56.580 -> 34:58.680] or just stick it in a WhatsApp group,
[34:58.680 -> 34:59.840] pop it on your social media,
[34:59.840 -> 35:01.280] mention it to a friend over dinner,
[35:01.280 -> 35:03.700] speak to someone, I don't know, at the water cooler
[35:03.700 -> 35:04.800] about what you're listening to,
[35:04.800 -> 35:07.840] and I would love to spread it that way organically. That's how we've grown
[35:07.840 -> 35:12.240] high performance, that's how we'll continue to grow it. Thanks as always to the whole team for
[35:12.240 -> 35:17.440] their hard work, a huge thanks to PwC for believing that we could deliver these conversations.
[35:17.440 -> 35:22.720] And remember, there is no secret, it's all there for you. So chase world-class basics,
[35:22.720 -> 35:25.000] don't get high on your own supply.
[35:25.000 -> 35:27.440] Remain humble, curious and empathetic.
[35:27.440 -> 35:43.240] And we'll see you soon.
[35:44.620 -> 35:46.620] you