Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:00:01 GMT
Duration:
1:17:11
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Danny Cipriani is a professional rugby player, he has played for England, Bath and Gloucester among others. In this episode, Danny takes Jake and Damian through his life - the struggles he faced growing up as a “council house boy” in a private school, coming from a single parent family and the tragedy that has shaped him. He expresses how crucial empathy is and how although people shy away from difficult conversations they are the most important to have.
Having faced challenges with addiction, relationships and more, Danny talks about how freedom is now such a key aspect of his life, now he is in a positive place. He shares what it took for him to recover from the dark place he was once in and that he now wants to use his learnings to help young people in the same situations he was in.
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**Key Points:**
- Danny Cipriani, a former professional rugby player, shares his journey from a troubled youth to finding freedom and happiness.
- Growing up in a single-parent household and attending a private school as a "council house boy" led to feelings of inadequacy and a search for validation.
- Cipriani faced challenges with addiction, relationships, and negative media attention, leading to a dark period in his life.
- He emphasizes the importance of empathy and open conversations, especially in addressing difficult issues.
- Cipriani's recovery involved recognizing his self-worth, embracing vulnerability, and seeking support from mentors and loved ones.
- He advocates for creating a safe space for athletes to express themselves authentically without fear of judgment.
- Cipriani believes that freedom is crucial for personal growth and happiness, and he encourages others to pursue their passions and live life on their own terms.
- He highlights the significance of seeking professional help and guidance when facing personal struggles.
- Cipriani emphasizes the need for society to embrace diversity and individuality, allowing people to flourish without conforming to societal norms.
- He stresses the importance of self-reflection, taking accountability for one's actions, and learning from past mistakes.
- Cipriani's story serves as an inspiration for others to overcome adversity, find their purpose, and live a fulfilling life.
# Podcast Episode Summary: Danny Cipriani's Journey of Self-Discovery and Emotional Intelligence
**Introduction:**
* Danny Cipriani, a former professional rugby player, shares his life story, including struggles with addiction, relationships, and personal growth.
* He emphasizes the importance of empathy and open conversations, especially in addressing difficult topics.
**Key Points:**
1. **Confronting Personal Struggles:**
* Danny faced challenges with addiction, relationships, and personal well-being.
* He emphasizes the importance of seeking help and support when facing personal struggles.
2. **The Power of Freedom:**
* Danny now values freedom and positivity in his life after overcoming his personal challenges.
* He shares how he recovered from dark times and wants to help young people in similar situations.
3. **Emotional Intelligence in Sports:**
* Danny discusses the importance of emotional intelligence among coaches and players in sports.
* He believes that creating an environment where athletes feel comfortable sharing their emotions leads to better performance and overall well-being.
4. **The Impact of Media Scrutiny:**
* Danny reflects on the intense media scrutiny he faced as a public figure and its negative consequences.
* He highlights the need for empathy and understanding towards athletes who are under constant public scrutiny.
5. **The Cost of Maintaining a Facade:**
* Danny emphasizes the emotional toll of maintaining a public persona that doesn't reflect one's true self.
* He encourages people to be authentic and vulnerable in their relationships and interactions.
6. **Finding Peace through Meditation and Spirituality:**
* Danny credits meditation and spirituality for bringing him inner peace and helping him navigate his personal struggles.
* He encourages others to explore these practices for personal growth and well-being.
7. **Creating Supportive Environments:**
* Danny discusses the importance of creating supportive environments in teams and organizations.
* He believes that fostering open communication and emotional intelligence leads to better performance and a more positive culture.
8. **The Role of Vulnerability in Leadership:**
* Danny highlights the importance of vulnerability in leadership, allowing leaders to connect with their teams on a deeper level.
* He believes that leaders who are open and authentic inspire trust and engagement among their team members.
9. **Overcoming Societal Pressure:**
* Danny reflects on the societal pressure to conform and maintain a certain image, which can hinder personal growth and authenticity.
* He encourages people to break free from these societal norms and embrace their true selves.
10. **The Beauty of Authenticity:**
* Danny emphasizes the beauty and power of being authentic and vulnerable, both in personal relationships and in public life.
* He believes that authenticity leads to deeper connections, more fulfilling relationships, and a more meaningful life.
**Conclusion:**
* Danny Cipriani's journey highlights the importance of emotional intelligence, authenticity, and creating supportive environments for personal and professional growth.
* He encourages people to embrace their true selves, seek help when needed, and foster open and honest communication in all aspects of life.
# **Navigating the Crossroads of Empathy and Criticism in High-Performance Sports**
In this podcast episode, former rugby player Danny Cipriani engages in a candid conversation about his life journey, emphasizing the significance of empathy in human interactions and the challenges athletes face in the public eye. Cipriani's experiences shed light on the need for authenticity and self-acceptance in high-performance environments.
**Key Points:**
1. **Empathy as a Cornerstone of Human Connection:**
- Cipriani highlights the importance of empathy in fostering meaningful relationships and understanding others' perspectives.
- He emphasizes the need to prioritize empathy over judgment, especially in evaluating the actions and decisions of individuals.
2. **The Masks We Wear:**
- Cipriani reflects on the pressure athletes often feel to conform to societal expectations and maintain a certain image.
- He encourages individuals to shed these masks and embrace their true selves, fostering a sense of authenticity and liberation.
3. **The Cycle of Addiction and Recovery:**
- Cipriani openly discusses his struggles with addiction and the transformative impact of seeking help and embarking on a recovery journey.
- He emphasizes the importance of addressing underlying issues and finding healthy coping mechanisms to break free from addictive patterns.
4. **The Power of Self-Control and Internal Well-being:**
- Cipriani stresses the significance of self-control and maintaining a positive internal state, regardless of external circumstances.
- He advocates for cultivating inner peace and resilience to navigate the challenges and pressures of high-performance environments.
5. **The Role of Meditation and Self-Reflection:**
- Cipriani shares his experience with meditation and its role in helping him find inner peace and clarity.
- He encourages individuals to engage in self-reflection and mindfulness practices to enhance their self-awareness and emotional well-being.
6. **The Need for Open and Honest Conversations:**
- Cipriani emphasizes the importance of having open and honest conversations, especially about difficult topics.
- He believes that avoiding uncomfortable discussions hinders personal growth and prevents individuals from addressing underlying issues.
7. **The Impact of Public Scrutiny on Athletes:**
- Cipriani reflects on the intense scrutiny and criticism that athletes often face, particularly in the era of social media.
- He highlights the need for a more compassionate and understanding approach towards athletes, acknowledging their vulnerability and the pressures they face.
8. **The Desire to Inspire and Empower Others:**
- Cipriani expresses his passion for using his experiences to inspire and empower young people facing similar challenges.
- He aims to create a positive impact by sharing his story and promoting empathy, resilience, and self-acceptance.
9. **The Importance of Authenticity and Vulnerability:**
- Cipriani advocates for authenticity and vulnerability as essential qualities for personal growth and fulfillment.
- He believes that embracing one's true self, with all its flaws and imperfections, leads to a more meaningful and fulfilling life.
10. **The Path to High Performance:**
- Cipriani defines high performance as living a life in alignment with one's passion and purpose.
- He emphasizes the importance of staying true to oneself, accepting challenges, and learning from setbacks to achieve lasting success.
**Overall Message:**
Danny Cipriani's journey serves as a reminder of the transformative power of empathy, authenticity, and self-acceptance. He encourages individuals to embrace their true selves, prioritize their well-being, and engage in open and honest conversations to foster a more compassionate and understanding society. By shedding the masks we wear and embracing vulnerability, we can unlock our full potential and live a life of purpose and fulfillment.
# Podcast Episode Summary:
## Danny Cipriani's Journey: From Rugby Star to Advocate for Mental Health
### Introduction:
- This episode features Danny Cipriani, a professional rugby player who has played for England, Bath, and Gloucester, among other teams.
- Cipriani takes Jake Humphrey and Damian Lewis through his life, sharing his struggles growing up as a "council house boy" in a private school, coming from a single-parent family, and the tragedy that shaped him.
- He emphasizes the importance of empathy and open conversations, especially around difficult topics.
### Key Points:
1. **Confronting Challenges:**
- Cipriani faced various challenges, including addiction, relationship issues, and personal struggles.
- He had to overcome these obstacles to reach a positive place in his life.
2. **The Power of Freedom:**
- Cipriani now values freedom and emphasizes its significance in his life.
- He shares what it took for him to recover from his dark past and his desire to use his experiences to help young people facing similar challenges.
3. **Changing the Media Narrative:**
- Cipriani encourages listeners to challenge the media's portrayal of individuals and to avoid rushing to judgment.
- He suggests a three-step process before sharing information:
- Is it truthful?
- Is it helpful to the person you're sharing it with?
- Is it helpful to you?
- He believes that by practicing these principles, we can contribute to a more positive society.
4. **Sam Thomas's Journey:**
- Sam Thomas, an avid listener of the podcast, shares how it impacted his life.
- Thomas launched a local children's charity and started his own podcast after being inspired by the podcast's messages.
- He emphasizes the importance of enjoying the journey and the learning process, rather than constantly chasing a destination.
5. **Advice for Podcasters:**
- Thomas shares tips for getting the best out of guests on podcasts:
- Everyone has a story to tell, regardless of their background or achievements.
- Focus on the journey and the lessons learned, rather than just the destination.
- Have open and honest conversations, and avoid sensationalism.
### Conclusion:
- The episode highlights the importance of empathy, resilience, and the power of open conversations in overcoming challenges and achieving personal growth.
- It also emphasizes the role of individuals in shaping a more positive media landscape and society as a whole.
[00:00.000 -> 00:05.600] Hey, I'm Jake Humphrey, and you're listening to High Performance, our conversation for
[00:05.600 -> 00:08.080] you every single week.
[00:08.080 -> 00:11.120] This is the podcast that reminds you that it's within.
[00:11.120 -> 00:13.900] Your ambition, your purpose, your story, it's there.
[00:13.900 -> 00:18.640] We just help unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers
[00:18.640 -> 00:20.220] into your life lessons.
[00:20.220 -> 00:25.140] So right now, allow myself and Professor Damian Hughes to speak to the greatest leaders thinkers entrepreneurs
[00:25.560 -> 00:30.000] And in this case sports stars on the planet and just let them be your teacher
[00:30.440 -> 00:35.920] This podcast isn't about high achievement or high success. It's celebrating the right stuff
[00:36.480 -> 00:41.000] High happiness high self-worth high self-care today
[00:41.600 -> 00:43.600] This awaits you
[00:44.040 -> 00:47.380] Being written about from such a young age it's not
[00:47.380 -> 00:51.640] when you had an opportunity to respond as well it makes you sort of believe
[00:51.640 -> 00:54.580] what people are saying about you but it's a snippet of your life it's part of
[00:54.580 -> 00:59.200] your life it's not who you are. I didn't feel like I was good enough I didn't
[00:59.200 -> 01:04.600] feel valued I would like walk down the street like especially when I was like
[01:04.600 -> 01:05.560] 22 23 and people would look at me and straightaway I'd be like what they're valued, I would like walk down the street, like especially when I was like 22, 23,
[01:05.560 -> 01:07.520] and people would look at me and straight away,
[01:07.520 -> 01:09.360] I'd be like, what are they saying about me?
[01:09.360 -> 01:11.960] And as soon as they lock eyes and double lock eyes,
[01:11.960 -> 01:13.160] I'm thinking, oh, they're saying something bad
[01:13.160 -> 01:15.080] about me straight away.
[01:15.080 -> 01:17.240] Live and die into your passion, go into it,
[01:17.240 -> 01:19.160] because whatever your desire is,
[01:19.160 -> 01:22.600] it will allow you to figure out more about who you are too.
[01:22.600 -> 01:23.440] Life's gonna come,
[01:23.440 -> 01:26.080] doesn't mean I've got it sorted at all.
[01:26.080 -> 01:28.840] No doubt other things are gonna happen in the world
[01:28.840 -> 01:29.760] where it affects you,
[01:29.760 -> 01:32.720] but my ability to handle it now,
[01:32.720 -> 01:34.620] I believe is in a much better state.
[01:34.620 -> 01:38.920] And it doesn't mean that it's always great,
[01:38.920 -> 01:40.960] but the consistency of my happiness
[01:42.360 -> 01:44.520] is unparalleled to how I used to feel.
[01:44.520 -> 01:47.000] I never spoke about this so it's
[01:47.000 -> 01:52.080] weird to have these emotions. I don't feel sad so don't don't worry about that.
[01:52.080 -> 01:56.640] Just to be clear for people you're talking about buying a gun to take your own life here?
[01:56.640 -> 01:57.640] Yeah.
[01:57.640 -> 02:02.760] Wow, I think that that very small teaser gives you an insight into what we're going to hear
[02:02.760 -> 02:06.440] today from Danny Cipriani, without doubt one of the most naturally gifted
[02:06.440 -> 02:14.000] Players to ever pull on a rugby jersey someone who came into English rugby with so much. Hope attached to him and
[02:14.760 -> 02:19.840] The journey and the story is somewhat different perhaps to the one that people were expecting
[02:20.400 -> 02:24.920] And I was thinking a lot about how to introduce this episode because I think it's so important that
[02:24.880 -> 02:29.080] And I was thinking a lot about how to introduce this episode, because I think it's so important that we don't just think we have to learn from the people who've found life easy and
[02:29.080 -> 02:32.480] been super successful, because what can they really teach us?
[02:32.480 -> 02:38.280] Sure, there are things that we can learn from them, but actually it's the struggle, and
[02:38.280 -> 02:42.440] it's the challenge, and it's the reframing of our perspective that I really think the
[02:42.440 -> 02:43.880] deep learning comes from.
[02:43.880 -> 02:46.060] And as you know, I'm a big fan of stoic thinking,
[02:46.060 -> 02:48.360] and I just want to share a quote from Epictetus
[02:48.360 -> 02:50.420] that I was thinking about while we were talking to Danny,
[02:50.420 -> 02:51.260] and it is,
[02:51.260 -> 02:53.300] hold unhappy man,
[02:53.300 -> 02:56.160] be not swept along with your impressions.
[02:56.160 -> 02:57.700] Great is the struggle,
[02:57.700 -> 02:59.380] divine the task,
[02:59.380 -> 03:01.240] the prize is a kingdom,
[03:01.240 -> 03:02.460] freedom,
[03:02.460 -> 03:03.920] serenity,
[03:03.920 -> 03:04.880] peace.
[03:04.880 -> 03:06.380] And you're going to hear just what a challenge
[03:06.380 -> 03:08.280] the last few years has been for Danny,
[03:08.280 -> 03:10.260] both in and outside of rugby.
[03:10.260 -> 03:12.080] But I think that quote from Epictetus
[03:12.080 -> 03:15.760] that ends with freedom, serenity, peace.
[03:15.760 -> 03:17.920] Those are the three things that he's found.
[03:17.920 -> 03:19.280] And those are the three things
[03:19.280 -> 03:21.660] that we are constantly searching for.
[03:22.520 -> 03:24.600] And if Danny can go through what he's been through
[03:24.600 -> 03:28.160] and find them, then we need to listen to his story.
[03:28.160 -> 03:29.360] Because we too can find them
[03:29.360 -> 03:31.600] and he can help us to do just that.
[03:31.600 -> 03:34.920] So I really hope that you get a lot from this episode.
[03:34.920 -> 03:37.240] As always, there's only two things I ask of you.
[03:37.240 -> 03:38.400] To pass the podcast on,
[03:38.400 -> 03:40.200] either by sharing it on your social media
[03:40.200 -> 03:42.080] or just sending it to someone that you think could help.
[03:42.080 -> 03:43.600] And I think this episode,
[03:43.600 -> 03:45.500] particularly the conversation around mental health
[03:45.500 -> 03:48.300] and the challenge of daily life for some people,
[03:48.300 -> 03:50.700] is something that you need to pass on to others.
[03:50.700 -> 03:53.300] And if you can also subscribe to our podcast,
[03:53.300 -> 03:55.600] the vast majority of people that listen don't subscribe,
[03:55.600 -> 03:57.300] and it's really helpful to us
[03:57.300 -> 03:58.700] if you can just click the follow button
[03:58.700 -> 04:01.000] or click the subscribe button.
[04:01.000 -> 04:02.500] Right, let's do it then.
[04:02.500 -> 04:05.520] Time to get you closer to your own version of high performance by
[04:05.520 -> 04:11.720] listening to one of the most remarkable conversations we've had in the 150 plus episodes of this
[04:11.720 -> 04:17.280] podcast. It's a reminder that we can learn from anyone and any situation. Welcome to
[04:17.280 -> 04:46.480] high performance and thank you for your honesty, Danny Cipriani. protect your family with a free flu shot. It's all here. Fred Meyer, a world of care is in store.
[04:46.480 -> 04:50.240] Flu vaccines are covered by most insurance plans and are free to the recipient. Check with your
[04:50.240 -> 04:54.640] plan. Services and availability vary by location. Age and other restrictions may apply. Visit the
[04:54.640 -> 05:01.920] pharmacy or site for details. On our podcast, we love to highlight businesses that are doing things
[05:01.920 -> 05:09.920] a better way so you can live a better life. And that's why when I found Mint Mobile I had to share. So Mint Mobile ditched retail stores and
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[06:39.800 -> 06:43.000] I always start with what is high performance, but I want to start a bit differently actually
[06:43.000 -> 06:46.420] today. We will get to that point.
[06:46.420 -> 06:48.640] But I think for someone who so many people
[06:48.640 -> 06:49.620] have had an opinion about
[06:49.620 -> 06:51.940] and who's been in the public eye for so many years
[06:51.940 -> 06:55.320] and has got such a fascinating story,
[06:55.320 -> 06:58.040] I'm interested in just knowing how you feel now
[06:58.040 -> 07:00.060] about doing things like this.
[07:00.060 -> 07:03.900] Like what does today draw out of you emotionally?
[07:03.900 -> 07:09.140] Coming into it, I have these old feelings of like sitting in an interview and saying what I meant to say and
[07:10.100 -> 07:16.520] Talking how I meant to talk and even now like I feel this like energy going through me of like fuck you got say the right
[07:16.520 -> 07:17.360] thing
[07:17.360 -> 07:19.260] right, but
[07:19.260 -> 07:21.140] That isn't the way that I want to live my life
[07:21.140 -> 07:23.340] That's not who I am because I've been told my whole life
[07:23.120 -> 07:29.360] the way that I want to live my life, that's not who I am because I've been told my whole life who I am and what I am through all my errors and my mistakes and not my mistakes
[07:29.360 -> 07:33.760] but experiences and I can even feel myself getting like going into it now.
[07:33.760 -> 07:37.860] And what does that do for you then when you go into that? Does it remove the truth in
[07:37.860 -> 07:39.960] some or the real you?
[07:39.960 -> 07:43.400] It doesn't remove the truth like previously it would have like I guess when you see a
[07:43.400 -> 07:46.960] lot of athletes give interviews it's very straight down the line.
[07:46.960 -> 07:49.380] But for me, it was like, you know what?
[07:49.380 -> 07:51.680] The playing side of it was easy, not easy.
[07:51.680 -> 07:54.160] I don't want to disrespect the work and the effort
[07:54.160 -> 07:56.600] and everything that goes into it and the hours and so on.
[07:56.600 -> 07:58.760] And when school finished, when I was 17,
[07:58.760 -> 08:00.040] I'd get on a train for an hour and a half,
[08:00.040 -> 08:02.160] do sprint training, get home at 9 p.m.
[08:02.160 -> 08:04.680] All that stuff is all well and good.
[08:04.680 -> 08:07.460] But the playing side of it for me was the easier part
[08:07.460 -> 08:09.420] because I was able to be free of thought.
[08:09.420 -> 08:12.700] I was able to lock into what I was doing.
[08:12.700 -> 08:15.860] The difficult part was afterwards was like how I felt,
[08:15.860 -> 08:16.900] how tormented I feel.
[08:16.900 -> 08:18.780] I had to always be distracted.
[08:18.780 -> 08:21.020] You know, I had shame, I had fear.
[08:21.020 -> 08:22.460] I had all these things going on
[08:22.460 -> 08:26.400] and being written about from such a young age,
[08:26.400 -> 08:29.200] it's not when you had an opportunity to respond as well.
[08:29.200 -> 08:31.040] It makes you sort of believe
[08:31.040 -> 08:32.180] what people are saying about you,
[08:32.180 -> 08:33.360] but it's a snippet of your life.
[08:33.360 -> 08:34.200] It's part of your life.
[08:34.200 -> 08:35.520] It's not who you are.
[08:35.520 -> 08:39.700] And then comes entitlement, then comes anger,
[08:39.700 -> 08:42.200] then comes people talking about you.
[08:42.200 -> 08:44.680] And then you get this backup and you're like,
[08:44.680 -> 08:46.760] oh no, F them, it's them.
[08:46.760 -> 08:48.240] They shouldn't be talking about me like that.
[08:48.240 -> 08:50.280] Why do they always pull a story out
[08:50.280 -> 08:51.440] just before England selection?
[08:51.440 -> 08:53.960] Like, you know, my phone was tapped for seven years.
[08:53.960 -> 08:56.460] Like there's crazy stuff that's gone on.
[08:56.460 -> 08:57.960] I would get this blame mentality
[08:57.960 -> 09:00.480] because you're feeling like everyone's on you,
[09:00.480 -> 09:03.540] but ultimately you have to look at self too.
[09:03.540 -> 09:06.400] And you know, the way I was behaving
[09:06.400 -> 09:07.900] and the things I was doing,
[09:07.900 -> 09:09.380] it's not a right or wrong thing,
[09:09.380 -> 09:11.220] but my life sent me that way
[09:11.220 -> 09:12.980] because I was looking for that.
[09:12.980 -> 09:15.540] I was looking for that feeling, that dopamine effect,
[09:15.540 -> 09:18.460] that love, that affection or whatever it might've been.
[09:18.460 -> 09:20.060] And I had to understand that truly
[09:20.060 -> 09:26.320] before I could become who I am today, like, you know, happy, you know, I feel like I've
[09:26.320 -> 09:32.440] reversed time. I feel like I'm 20 again, like before all the stories happened and I'm just
[09:32.440 -> 09:38.120] sitting here and speaking about it. So like, I've never done this, like it feels strange,
[09:38.120 -> 09:45.360] you know, emotional. Well, clearly it's coming out of me. Where's that come from then?
[09:45.360 -> 09:50.360] I guess it's just, I didn't feel like I was good enough.
[09:50.360 -> 09:52.360] I didn't feel valued.
[09:52.360 -> 09:55.360] I would like walk down the street,
[09:55.360 -> 09:57.360] like, especially when I was like 22, 23
[09:57.360 -> 09:59.360] and people would look at me and straight away,
[09:59.360 -> 10:01.360] I'd be like, what are they saying about me?
[10:01.360 -> 10:03.360] And as soon as they lock eyes and double lock eyes,
[10:03.360 -> 10:05.040] I'm thinking, oh, they're saying something bad
[10:05.040 -> 10:06.840] about me straight away.
[10:06.840 -> 10:09.560] And that's how I felt then, but I don't now.
[10:09.560 -> 10:13.480] And it's okay for me to feel the emotion and go through it.
[10:13.480 -> 10:15.940] And that's why I'm in the process of doing this.
[10:17.200 -> 10:20.080] So for me, I've got a real passion
[10:20.080 -> 10:22.200] about athletes being able to express themselves truly.
[10:22.200 -> 10:24.120] And it's something I never felt I could.
[10:24.120 -> 10:27.920] And whenever you see a bit of emotion being shown by an athlete,
[10:27.920 -> 10:29.160] you know, the media jump on him.
[10:29.160 -> 10:31.600] Look at Andy Joshua after his fight, like,
[10:31.600 -> 10:32.720] might not have been the right time,
[10:32.720 -> 10:33.920] might not have been the right thing to say,
[10:33.920 -> 10:35.760] but there was a true sense of him coming out.
[10:35.760 -> 10:37.600] Like, let's, let's dive into that.
[10:37.600 -> 10:38.880] Let's, let's celebrate that.
[10:38.880 -> 10:41.280] And I just feel like, man,
[10:41.280 -> 10:43.800] you walk around with a straitjacket a long, a long time,
[10:43.800 -> 10:45.440] especially in this country
[10:45.440 -> 10:47.560] and the way things are viewed.
[10:47.560 -> 10:51.360] So one of the people that I spoke to before we met
[10:51.360 -> 10:53.640] was Brian Ashton, who spoke about,
[10:53.640 -> 10:55.440] you were somebody that really responded
[10:55.440 -> 10:57.760] to having questions asked of you
[10:57.760 -> 10:59.940] and being able to pose the answers.
[10:59.940 -> 11:03.400] So tell us before we get into the interview then, Danny,
[11:03.400 -> 11:05.400] what questions should we be asking of you
[11:05.400 -> 11:09.600] to give you this platform, to give the best version of you?
[11:10.880 -> 11:12.580] I don't know, just a human conversation, man.
[11:12.580 -> 11:15.480] Like I'm sure I'll warm up into it and I'll get into it.
[11:15.480 -> 11:18.480] And, you know, I feel as soon as you put cameras
[11:18.480 -> 11:20.880] and mics in front of people, it's a different feel, isn't it?
[11:20.880 -> 11:23.760] And, you know, I've always been trying to get to the top
[11:23.760 -> 11:25.240] or play for England or be seen to get to the top or play for
[11:25.240 -> 11:29.240] England or be seen to be doing the right things, especially because my off-field
[11:29.240 -> 11:34.720] behaviour at time would put me in a certain bracket and, you know, I firstly
[11:34.720 -> 11:40.360] had to accept a lot of things internally and myself to be able to sit here
[11:40.360 -> 11:44.880] and give this type of interview that I want to give. So the right question is a
[11:44.880 -> 11:45.440] difficult one.
[11:45.440 -> 11:48.600] It's just us going through the story, talking about it,
[11:48.600 -> 11:51.120] whatever comes up, the good times, the sad times,
[11:51.120 -> 11:54.080] the emotions, like I'm willing to express
[11:54.080 -> 11:57.160] and be vulnerable of all because I'm very comfortable
[11:57.160 -> 11:58.200] with who I am now.
[11:58.200 -> 12:00.680] I'd love to go back to the freedom that you had
[12:00.680 -> 12:01.520] as a young guy.
[12:01.520 -> 12:04.120] Even when I say that word, you like a smile on your face
[12:04.120 -> 12:05.040] and you nod your head.
[12:05.040 -> 12:07.240] Like, I feel the freedom still like to this day,
[12:07.240 -> 12:10.760] like for a long time I didn't, but for sure, like it's back.
[12:10.760 -> 12:12.840] So you're back to having that freedom.
[12:12.840 -> 12:15.040] I suppose my heart breaks for you a bit
[12:15.040 -> 12:16.320] if I'm totally honest,
[12:16.320 -> 12:19.320] because you know, there's lots of parents in this room
[12:19.320 -> 12:21.320] and we all want amazing things for our kids.
[12:21.320 -> 12:24.280] And my wife is a big rugby fan,
[12:24.280 -> 12:28.100] dreams of the day our boy plays rugby, right?
[12:28.100 -> 12:30.500] And I look at your story and I think,
[12:30.500 -> 12:32.100] you had so much freedom.
[12:32.100 -> 12:35.180] The dream arrived and things happened
[12:36.060 -> 12:38.360] that removed all the joy.
[12:38.360 -> 12:40.680] And it's only afterwards, when that moment was gone
[12:40.680 -> 12:42.020] and it would never come back,
[12:42.020 -> 12:43.340] that you can find the freedom again.
[12:43.340 -> 12:45.260] And for you to sit here and have a smile on your face
[12:45.260 -> 12:46.300] is like incredible bravery
[12:46.300 -> 12:49.440] and a huge respect to you for that.
[12:49.440 -> 12:52.700] I just, I'm heartbroken for the fact that
[12:52.700 -> 12:55.500] things conspired and you made decisions
[12:55.500 -> 12:56.660] and things were stacked up
[12:56.660 -> 13:00.580] that took those golden moments away from you.
[13:00.580 -> 13:03.440] I just would love to go back to the period of freedom
[13:03.440 -> 13:04.900] and we'll work out how this happened.
[13:04.900 -> 13:10.820] Well, like firstly, I'm not heartbroken about it. So don't be yeah for me because how you let go of that then it's those
[13:11.220 -> 13:17.200] Experiences were what I needed. I needed to face those. I needed to grow into who I am now. I didn't have the
[13:17.820 -> 13:19.820] traditional paternal and maternal
[13:20.020 -> 13:26.120] Framework or guidance from my parents to be like certain things, you know, I was just this free loving young
[13:26.800 -> 13:31.920] Confident happy kid like thrust into it and then life was like this how you meant to behave
[13:32.200 -> 13:37.120] I'm like by I'm behaving boom now this how you meant to behave whether it be a story or whether it be whatever's happening and
[13:37.120 -> 13:38.760] We're not first happening
[13:38.760 -> 13:44.620] Probably when I came out of a nightclub on a Wednesday night and I was playing for England on the Saturday
[13:44.640 -> 13:47.000] But I literally popped in there for 15 minutes.
[13:47.000 -> 13:49.720] And on the back of that,
[13:49.720 -> 13:51.080] I was on the front page the next day
[13:51.080 -> 13:53.600] and Brian himself had to not select me
[13:53.600 -> 13:55.400] because of the pressure he was feeling from the RFU.
[13:55.400 -> 13:57.760] Oh, we can't be seen to be doing that.
[13:57.760 -> 13:59.920] I understand it, like poor decision.
[13:59.920 -> 14:00.760] I get that.
[14:00.760 -> 14:04.880] But then from then on, it was like spotlight on.
[14:04.880 -> 14:05.000] It started at 16 when I was in the National Academy with Brian, but from then on, it was like spotlight on.
[14:05.000 -> 14:07.720] It started at 16 when I was in the National Academy of Bryan,
[14:07.720 -> 14:10.840] but from then on, it was like properly on.
[14:10.840 -> 14:14.000] And then the experience of like going out with people
[14:14.000 -> 14:16.000] that are well-known and going in that environment,
[14:16.000 -> 14:18.320] like that was all part of it,
[14:18.320 -> 14:21.880] but I don't feel sad for any of those moments
[14:21.880 -> 14:23.200] or I've not lost anything
[14:23.200 -> 14:25.720] because it's created the person I am now
[14:25.720 -> 14:29.480] and the emotions and the turns and the ties,
[14:29.480 -> 14:31.360] the ups and the downs, everything I've been through
[14:31.360 -> 14:34.000] and how I'm still sat here happy and confident,
[14:34.000 -> 14:36.160] like I feel untouchable in that sense
[14:36.160 -> 14:40.440] because vulnerability is strength and you don't see it.
[14:40.440 -> 14:41.920] You don't see it, especially in our country.
[14:41.920 -> 14:44.760] You don't see athletes coming across and doing that as much.
[14:44.760 -> 14:46.040] And there's lots of reasons why, and I'm sure we'll get into it at a, especially in our country. You don't see athletes coming across and doing that as much. And there's lots of reasons why,
[14:46.040 -> 14:47.160] and I'm sure we'll get into it,
[14:47.160 -> 14:49.720] you know, at a later date in this conversation.
[14:49.720 -> 14:51.240] But yeah, I think vulnerability is key.
[14:51.240 -> 14:52.080] And I'm so pleased you say that.
[14:52.080 -> 14:54.000] I mean, and that is a true sign of strength.
[14:54.000 -> 14:55.440] Yeah, definitely.
[14:55.440 -> 14:57.280] But take us back to that period when you said,
[14:57.280 -> 14:59.080] I didn't grow up with a traditional
[14:59.080 -> 15:01.120] maternal paternal background.
[15:01.120 -> 15:02.360] What did you grow up with?
[15:02.360 -> 15:06.880] Well, I'm mixed race and my dad's black and my mom's white, but obviously I'm white skinned,
[15:06.880 -> 15:11.640] so I had lots of confusion around that growing up, but you know, I was just happy, like,
[15:11.640 -> 15:14.000] happy guy just doing whatever. And then...
[15:14.000 -> 15:16.440] What was the confusion around that? Explain that to people.
[15:16.440 -> 15:20.040] Well, for me, I felt more connected to the black side of my family because there was
[15:20.040 -> 15:28.300] my dad and there was all my cousins, auntie, uncles, but yet I'm white skin. So I would always kind of gravitate towards, you know,
[15:29.240 -> 15:32.300] not my best friend, but it's just the way it was.
[15:32.300 -> 15:34.680] Then you feel like you're too white for your black friends
[15:34.680 -> 15:35.720] or you're too black for your white.
[15:35.720 -> 15:37.600] It's just a odd feeling that you would have felt,
[15:37.600 -> 15:39.720] you know, at different points when I was younger.
[15:39.720 -> 15:42.240] Did you never feel you quite belonged anywhere?
[15:42.240 -> 15:47.600] I think that is an underlying feeling I would have felt a lot because I grew up in a counter
[15:47.600 -> 15:52.320] state and ended up playing rugby, going to good schools. So my environment was very different
[15:52.320 -> 15:58.560] to the rest of the rugby players. So I wasn't as good as, you know, keeping my mouth closed
[15:58.560 -> 16:03.440] and saying yes sir, no sir, if I felt a coach was being disrespectful or whatever it might
[16:03.440 -> 16:05.760] have been. I was very honest in how I spoke, not in a rude manner, but, you know, if I felt coach was being disrespectful or whatever it might've been, I was very honest in how I spoke,
[16:05.760 -> 16:07.880] not in a rude manner, but, you know,
[16:07.880 -> 16:10.400] if I have a view, you know, at my club,
[16:10.400 -> 16:12.960] it was heard, at Wasps, it was heard.
[16:12.960 -> 16:16.080] Then when I went to England and I had the same view
[16:17.040 -> 16:18.800] at the time, say like a Martin Johnson,
[16:18.800 -> 16:21.160] he didn't respond as well to it
[16:21.160 -> 16:22.160] because his environment was different.
[16:22.160 -> 16:23.520] Leicester was the old school mentality.
[16:23.520 -> 16:26.200] You have to shut up and put up and get along with it.
[16:26.200 -> 16:27.880] And there's no discredit to him.
[16:27.880 -> 16:29.080] That was just his environment.
[16:29.080 -> 16:32.200] And, and so that sort of relationship broke down.
[16:32.240 -> 16:32.720] Um,
[16:32.920 -> 16:34.160] I'm really intrigued by that.
[16:34.160 -> 16:38.240] Have you grown up on a council estate and then you go into a private school.
[16:38.360 -> 16:40.560] Tell us how that felt for you.
[16:40.560 -> 16:41.200] Because again,
[16:41.200 -> 16:46.440] that's dislocation you describe about not feeling quite enough to fit into the black
[16:46.440 -> 16:49.500] or the white community must have been exacerbated
[16:49.500 -> 16:51.660] by the other kids from your estate
[16:51.660 -> 16:53.900] weren't going to private schools.
[16:53.900 -> 16:55.060] Kids from your private schools
[16:55.060 -> 16:56.420] weren't going to your council estate.
[16:56.420 -> 16:58.780] So how did that feed into it?
[16:58.780 -> 17:00.420] I think when you're young, you don't,
[17:00.420 -> 17:03.020] you're not sitting there feeling it as such,
[17:03.020 -> 17:05.500] especially because sport was my connector to everything.
[17:05.500 -> 17:08.820] Like, you know, when I played on a Sunday at Rosalind Park,
[17:08.820 -> 17:11.760] the feeling you'd get from playing well
[17:11.760 -> 17:12.820] and everyone talking and being like,
[17:12.820 -> 17:14.020] oh my God, did you see that?
[17:14.020 -> 17:16.400] So it didn't, I didn't necessarily feel like that
[17:16.400 -> 17:18.280] until later on when you get older
[17:18.280 -> 17:19.500] and you reflect on these things.
[17:19.500 -> 17:22.320] Like that was when I was this young exuberant living life.
[17:22.320 -> 17:25.280] You don't face your traumas till later on in life, do you?
[17:25.280 -> 17:27.200] You don't go when you sit in silence,
[17:27.200 -> 17:28.520] you're like, why is my brain going?
[17:28.520 -> 17:30.280] Why is it going a hundred miles an hour
[17:30.280 -> 17:31.320] and thinking this and that?
[17:31.320 -> 17:33.000] And, you know, you don't sit back
[17:33.000 -> 17:34.280] and reflect on your own behaviors.
[17:34.280 -> 17:35.640] It came out later on.
[17:35.640 -> 17:39.000] So do you feel you got away with stuff then
[17:39.000 -> 17:40.760] because your talent at that stage
[17:40.760 -> 17:44.000] where you were going in playing for Rosinpite, you were good.
[17:44.000 -> 17:48.800] So people would overlook things that maybe you were doing,
[17:48.840 -> 17:50.360] like answering back to a coach.
[17:50.360 -> 17:53.040] Yeah, but I wouldn't do it in a, in like a rude way.
[17:53.040 -> 17:56.720] Like I had this program, we were taught to Africa when I was under 11.
[17:56.720 -> 17:58.920] And they had like a little snippet for every player.
[17:58.920 -> 18:01.920] And the thing it said for me, like I found it the other day and it was like,
[18:02.760 -> 18:05.940] uh, Danny is a wonderful talent, a wonderful player.
[18:05.940 -> 18:08.300] And he's a keen advocate to hear what coaches have to say.
[18:08.340 -> 18:12.000] Like, and it was funny because obviously they were just laughing at the fact that
[18:12.260 -> 18:14.640] if they were trying to tell me to do something on the field, but I felt
[18:14.640 -> 18:17.400] something different or saw something different, or if they called a play and.
[18:17.840 -> 18:20.460] I saw something and we scored, they kind of accepted it and was like, cool.
[18:20.460 -> 18:21.000] That's Danny.
[18:21.540 -> 18:24.900] Doesn't quite flow like that in rugby when you get older and so on.
[18:24.900 -> 18:26.480] You have to build a structure and a framework
[18:26.480 -> 18:28.080] and so on around it.
[18:28.080 -> 18:30.840] But at 11, you had that self-confidence
[18:30.840 -> 18:32.360] just to go in your own way.
[18:32.360 -> 18:33.600] It didn't feel like self-confidence.
[18:33.600 -> 18:35.040] I was just being who I was.
[18:35.040 -> 18:37.480] You know, when you don't feel like I'm a confident kid,
[18:37.480 -> 18:38.800] I was just living.
[18:38.800 -> 18:41.320] Like, that's the way I operated.
[18:41.320 -> 18:42.320] I was in it.
[18:42.320 -> 18:44.600] At school, I remember I got in trouble
[18:44.600 -> 18:47.880] with my history teacher and he was the head of year
[18:47.880 -> 18:49.240] and he took me to the headmaster's office
[18:49.240 -> 18:50.520] and he was being really stern with me
[18:50.520 -> 18:52.280] and he was like, we're going.
[18:52.280 -> 18:53.680] And I was like, okay, we're going.
[18:53.680 -> 18:56.160] We sat down and the headmaster was like,
[18:56.160 -> 18:58.100] so Danny, how's the rugby going?
[18:58.100 -> 18:59.920] And I remember the headmaster behind me being,
[18:59.920 -> 19:02.960] the head of year being so angry
[19:02.960 -> 19:06.040] because he was like allowing me to get away with whatever.
[19:06.040 -> 19:07.560] So I guess there was a sense of that
[19:07.560 -> 19:10.400] when you're doing well, going well,
[19:10.400 -> 19:12.920] oh, things are happening, I'm getting scholarships,
[19:12.920 -> 19:14.600] it's working, but when you're in it,
[19:14.600 -> 19:17.160] you're not viewing it like that.
[19:17.160 -> 19:18.720] We've sat here and had a conversation
[19:18.720 -> 19:20.160] with Marcus Waring, the chef,
[19:20.160 -> 19:21.480] about how school let him down
[19:21.480 -> 19:23.520] because he wasn't like everybody else.
[19:23.520 -> 19:27.760] We've spoken to Alex Scott, who felt let down at school because he wasn't like everybody else. We've spoken to Alex Scott who felt let down at school because she wasn't like
[19:27.760 -> 19:32.240] everybody else. I'd love to explore this sense of
[19:32.240 -> 19:36.000] embracing difference and then and allowing people to flourish rather than
[19:36.000 -> 19:39.680] making everyone fit into the same mold. Like you know you're this
[19:39.680 -> 19:44.400] outgoing, confident, fascinating, brilliant, talented young guy and you
[19:44.400 -> 19:45.020] walk into the
[19:45.020 -> 19:50.300] world of rugby. Do you feel that rugby saw you for what you were and allowed you to flourish?
[19:50.300 -> 19:53.800] Or do you feel that rugby looked at you and thought, you don't fit the mold of a rugby
[19:53.800 -> 19:57.220] player, we need to mold you into what's expected?
[19:57.220 -> 20:02.280] It's tough for me to say because, you know, with some of the things that were going on
[20:02.280 -> 20:08.700] and the experience I was having, which would be front page news or negative news stories,
[20:08.700 -> 20:10.980] as a coach, I guess you can see,
[20:10.980 -> 20:12.560] and that looks a little bit like a risk.
[20:12.560 -> 20:16.900] Like, it doesn't feel like it's going the right way.
[20:16.900 -> 20:19.520] So I have to take acceptance and accountability of that
[20:19.520 -> 20:22.200] and realize that I can't sit here pointing fingers
[20:22.200 -> 20:23.040] at rugby and everything,
[20:23.040 -> 20:26.480] otherwise that's not gonna to be any remotely beneficial
[20:26.480 -> 20:27.320] to me.
[20:27.320 -> 20:28.560] So I had to feel that,
[20:28.560 -> 20:31.200] but do I have, I felt limitations within the sport?
[20:31.200 -> 20:32.020] For sure.
[20:32.020 -> 20:34.400] Like it's often spoke about, you know,
[20:34.400 -> 20:36.360] the diversity and so on, you know,
[20:36.360 -> 20:38.560] it's not the sport let me down.
[20:38.560 -> 20:42.640] I just, I feel like no one really sat me down
[20:42.640 -> 20:45.360] or put an arm around me or spoke to me about early on
[20:45.360 -> 20:47.920] when I was in the newspapers all the time going and going
[20:47.920 -> 20:49.480] and was like, how are you, Danny?
[20:49.480 -> 20:51.000] Like, how's it going?
[20:51.000 -> 20:52.600] I was just kind of left to my own devices
[20:52.600 -> 20:54.020] as I was as a kid.
[20:54.020 -> 20:56.040] So again, I'm having to figure out all these things.
[20:56.040 -> 20:57.680] I'm having to search, I'm having to look.
[20:57.680 -> 20:59.840] And I've got certain coaches in my life.
[20:59.840 -> 21:02.160] Like say Brian Ashton or Sean Edwards,
[21:02.160 -> 21:04.600] you know, I'm a god dad to his daughter.
[21:04.600 -> 21:06.920] Steve Black, who came into my life at 24,
[21:08.480 -> 21:11.360] he recently passed, he's a good man.
[21:11.360 -> 21:13.600] And I can feel the emotion, I'm cool with it.
[21:15.200 -> 21:18.120] But yeah, he came into my life when I needed
[21:18.120 -> 21:20.740] someone to like, show me love.
[21:21.600 -> 21:23.440] And ultimately that's what it was.
[21:24.960 -> 21:25.200] Needing love, stepping away from the way. Yeah, just because I felt so unlovable myself love and ultimately that's what it was.
[21:25.200 -> 21:26.200] Needing love, stepping away from what?
[21:26.200 -> 21:31.400] Yeah, just because I felt so unlovable myself because of all these errors that were happening,
[21:31.400 -> 21:36.000] all these mistakes and these things and how they were speaking about me in the media and
[21:36.000 -> 21:41.040] it was like the view then, you see things and you hear things and as much as you want
[21:41.040 -> 21:49.340] to like break free from it, it's still there. Like it was at that point until you get comfortable
[21:49.600 -> 21:51.540] and understand it's just part of the journey
[21:51.540 -> 21:54.900] and the emotion can come through me when I'm speaking,
[21:54.900 -> 21:56.340] but it doesn't mean I sit home thinking about it
[21:56.340 -> 21:57.180] ever sad about it.
[21:57.180 -> 22:00.880] You know, it's speaking about a time that was then
[22:00.880 -> 22:03.900] and I can sit here and do that about,
[22:03.900 -> 22:05.680] I don't even want this to be like a somber interview
[22:05.680 -> 22:07.560] about me, like, oh my God, I'm sad.
[22:07.560 -> 22:10.080] It's not the way I'm just speaking about past experience
[22:10.080 -> 22:12.280] and things that were then.
[22:12.280 -> 22:13.440] What was all this about then?
[22:13.440 -> 22:15.560] I'm really interested for people that don't know the story,
[22:15.560 -> 22:17.680] like explain to us, what were you doing?
[22:17.680 -> 22:19.040] And what was the reaction?
[22:19.040 -> 22:21.800] I've been in a paper a lot about, you know,
[22:21.800 -> 22:25.000] my personal life with women and such
[22:25.280 -> 22:27.920] and mistakes like, you know,
[22:27.920 -> 22:30.560] in issues that had just happened
[22:30.560 -> 22:31.560] and I was on the front page
[22:31.560 -> 22:32.720] and it was just negative stories.
[22:32.720 -> 22:35.640] It was just decision-making that,
[22:35.640 -> 22:36.960] it wasn't even decision-making.
[22:36.960 -> 22:39.840] I felt like it was who I was in my program
[22:39.840 -> 22:41.080] and I was just doing it.
[22:45.000 -> 22:47.280] And to like face yourself
[22:48.640 -> 22:51.640] in those moments, you push it down. You don't sit there and be like, what am I doing?
[22:51.640 -> 22:54.480] You just carry on behaving in a certain way,
[22:54.480 -> 22:56.040] you know, trying to find an escape,
[22:56.040 -> 22:56.940] whatever that would have been.
[22:56.940 -> 22:58.520] And for me, it was women,
[22:58.520 -> 23:00.120] or it would have been taking a painkiller,
[23:00.120 -> 23:02.000] or it would have been, you know,
[23:02.000 -> 23:02.920] whatever it would have been,
[23:02.920 -> 23:04.120] because that would have numbed me enough
[23:04.120 -> 23:06.160] for that point to feel okay.
[23:06.160 -> 23:07.800] Escaping what?
[23:07.800 -> 23:10.840] My thoughts, my feelings, my not feeling good enough,
[23:10.840 -> 23:13.000] you know, the way people spoke about me,
[23:13.000 -> 23:16.120] like I felt very alone a long time,
[23:16.120 -> 23:20.280] but that's also because I wasn't really facing myself
[23:20.280 -> 23:23.040] and accepting and looking at myself
[23:23.040 -> 23:25.600] and not taking accountability for my behaviors
[23:25.600 -> 23:28.160] as well as just the life I was in.
[23:28.160 -> 23:30.280] I was speaking to my physio about it the other day
[23:30.280 -> 23:32.120] about a lot of my experiences
[23:32.120 -> 23:34.840] and he's an angel of a human being.
[23:34.840 -> 23:36.160] Kevin Lidlow, he's a shout out.
[23:36.160 -> 23:37.440] He's just an angel.
[23:37.440 -> 23:39.040] He's the type of physio who puts his hands on you
[23:39.040 -> 23:41.800] and he'll know exactly what's up with you.
[23:41.800 -> 23:43.520] But I was speaking to him and he was like,
[23:43.520 -> 23:47.860] I don't think you should take so much pressure on yourself
[23:47.860 -> 23:49.960] because you're in a position where
[23:49.960 -> 23:51.280] women put themselves in front of you.
[23:51.280 -> 23:54.920] But I'm like, ultimately, I wouldn't want my son
[23:54.920 -> 23:56.320] or my daughter behaving in that way
[23:56.320 -> 23:59.880] because I want to bring them up with the right type of love
[23:59.880 -> 24:02.000] and care and focus for everyone.
[24:02.000 -> 24:04.040] And it's not, I didn't have that.
[24:04.040 -> 24:07.480] I was just quite entitled, confident, living my life
[24:07.480 -> 24:11.080] and not really being guided in how to behave or anything.
[24:11.080 -> 24:12.000] You know, so.
[24:12.000 -> 24:14.520] But can I ask you, like some of the stories say
[24:14.520 -> 24:17.720] like your involvement with women.
[24:17.720 -> 24:18.840] Yeah.
[24:18.840 -> 24:21.480] Did that give you kudos in the dressing room?
[24:21.480 -> 24:23.000] So we're talking about how coaches
[24:23.000 -> 24:24.760] might have viewed you skeptically,
[24:24.760 -> 24:26.680] but amongst your peer group,
[24:26.680 -> 24:29.760] were they sort of looking at you with a bit of envy,
[24:29.760 -> 24:31.800] a bit of admiration,
[24:31.800 -> 24:32.720] patting you on the back,
[24:32.720 -> 24:34.960] thinking that what you were doing was brilliant?
[24:34.960 -> 24:36.760] I guess there was jokes and stuff about it
[24:36.760 -> 24:39.280] and like people would speak about it,
[24:39.280 -> 24:41.520] but not in like a negative way or a,
[24:41.520 -> 24:44.920] it was just part of the change in humor, I guess.
[24:44.920 -> 24:47.080] Sure, but then did that give you that sense,
[24:47.080 -> 24:49.120] that feeling of love that you were looking for?
[24:49.120 -> 24:51.360] Because nobody's condemning you in a dressing room
[24:51.360 -> 24:53.400] for some of these antics, I'm sure.
[24:53.400 -> 24:56.760] Yeah, I guess it probably gave me a sense of like,
[24:56.760 -> 24:58.280] you're a man, you're doing it,
[24:58.280 -> 25:01.760] but like ultimately you don't feel good internally about it.
[25:01.760 -> 25:02.600] Sure.
[25:02.600 -> 25:04.440] You know, it's just, you have this provider,
[25:04.440 -> 25:07.040] this mask that you're wearing and you're going through life.
[25:07.040 -> 25:10.800] And in those environments, it's like,
[25:10.800 -> 25:13.320] it's such a ego, macho bravado changing
[25:13.320 -> 25:15.400] as a rugby environment, as you can tell.
[25:15.400 -> 25:18.960] And I'm always trying to find my way to fit my way to be
[25:18.960 -> 25:21.920] also the leader, because naturally my position is that.
[25:21.920 -> 25:23.360] So not only by the way I'm playing,
[25:23.360 -> 25:24.840] but the way people treat me off the field.
[25:24.840 -> 25:27.640] And I guess there might've been a part of it,
[25:27.640 -> 25:30.320] but ultimately it stemmed from my own internal struggle
[25:30.320 -> 25:32.640] that I was behaving in that way.
[25:32.640 -> 25:35.780] And I'm interested in, naturally,
[25:35.780 -> 25:37.840] what the impact is of all this sort of stuff.
[25:37.840 -> 25:41.480] Because I think that often we're fooled into thinking
[25:41.480 -> 25:42.680] just because someone's in the public eye,
[25:42.680 -> 25:47.720] they deserve criticism or scrutiny, or they deserve to be put on the front page of the paper. It comes with the job
[25:47.720 -> 25:51.320] Right is the old adage. Can you really tell us the true cost of?
[25:52.040 -> 25:58.720] That level of scrutiny at what is still an immature age, you know, you're 20 early 20s the cost of it
[25:59.840 -> 26:04.980] It's people taking their lives. I mean, do you know I mean like the cost of its heavy and I lived through it with
[26:08.200 -> 26:10.000] Someone I cared about,
[26:13.800 -> 26:17.680] and like Caroline and what she went through, and she was full of shame and regret and all these things.
[26:17.680 -> 26:21.760] Everyone feels that, everyone goes through that.
[26:21.760 -> 26:23.120] But because you're on this pedestal,
[26:23.120 -> 26:25.200] you don't feel like you can talk or be or share
[26:25.200 -> 26:26.040] or whatever it is.
[26:26.040 -> 26:28.260] And it's like, it's not real.
[26:28.260 -> 26:32.560] And I felt compelled after that to speak things
[26:32.560 -> 26:35.040] I'd been holding back for a long time
[26:35.040 -> 26:35.880] because I didn't want people to think
[26:35.880 -> 26:36.720] that was the way out.
[26:36.720 -> 26:40.120] Because when I was 22, I felt like that was the way out.
[26:41.020 -> 26:42.120] So it was so personal.
[26:42.120 -> 26:42.960] Suicide.
[26:42.960 -> 26:44.280] Yeah, suicide, man.
[26:44.280 -> 26:46.000] Like that's the cost of it.
[26:46.000 -> 26:50.000] If you don't, for some people it's fortunate you meet someone
[26:50.000 -> 26:53.000] or you have an experience and you don't go down that route.
[26:53.000 -> 26:55.000] But what stopped you?
[26:55.000 -> 27:00.000] When I was 22, I was trying to buy a gun and the guy
[27:00.000 -> 27:03.000] I was trying to buy it off, he was a bit of a gangster
[27:03.000 -> 27:04.000] in London and whatever.
[27:04.000 -> 27:08.480] And I would try and get it and he'd cancel it. I'd cancel it because I was like
[27:09.200 -> 27:13.440] Just to be clear for people you're talking about buying a gun to take your own life. Yeah
[27:15.040 -> 27:19.040] He didn't know why he just thought I wanted wanted a gun in that sense and
[27:20.760 -> 27:21.880] I
[27:21.880 -> 27:25.000] Kept saying yes, and then saying no and bailing on him.
[27:25.440 -> 27:27.280] Obviously that's getting in my rate.
[27:27.280 -> 27:30.040] So he sold all the pictures and the messages
[27:30.040 -> 27:31.840] to the Sun newspaper.
[27:31.840 -> 27:35.000] So then the Sun newspaper wanted to do a front page story.
[27:35.000 -> 27:36.700] Dan Cipriani's trying to buy a gun.
[27:37.800 -> 27:40.160] And my psychiatrist had to come in and be like,
[27:42.200 -> 27:43.040] I never spoke about this,
[27:43.040 -> 27:45.640] so it's weird to have these emotions.
[27:45.640 -> 27:49.760] I don't feel sad, so don't worry about that.
[27:49.760 -> 27:54.720] But yeah, when that happened, it was like, I'm glad it happened,
[27:54.720 -> 27:57.000] because the other way is the other way.
[27:58.120 -> 28:03.360] And then, sports, beautiful, man, because you can think about the next game,
[28:03.360 -> 28:05.480] the next session, the next thing.
[28:05.480 -> 28:06.320] Like, there's so many things.
[28:06.320 -> 28:09.160] If you get a passion in life, like, commit to it.
[28:09.160 -> 28:10.560] Commit to it, live and die into it,
[28:10.560 -> 28:13.480] because it will reveal what it needs to reveal internally
[28:13.480 -> 28:14.920] about yourself and so on.
[28:14.920 -> 28:17.920] It's not just the passion of doing something.
[28:17.920 -> 28:19.480] That's what happened in that situation,
[28:19.480 -> 28:22.360] and they weren't allowed to print it
[28:22.360 -> 28:25.720] because it was stopped by a psychiatrist.
[28:25.720 -> 28:32.400] But you know, it's that type of thing that needs to get addressed and looked at because
[28:32.400 -> 28:36.120] the way the media run, the way they control things, the way they speak, the narrative
[28:36.120 -> 28:42.020] of the whole country, athletes and so on, they may look shiny and glamorous and everything's
[28:42.020 -> 28:44.940] going well, but you don't know the damage it's doing.
[28:44.940 -> 28:49.520] So take us beyond the headlines, Danny, because that's pretty shocking to hear.
[28:49.560 -> 28:55.040] You know, you're a 22 year old lad, the headline, you're a good looking lad,
[28:55.040 -> 28:59.320] you're successful, you're doing well at rugby, you're in the England team,
[28:59.320 -> 29:03.600] you've got the world at your feet, and yet you're telling us that
[29:04.440 -> 29:06.680] you're making some serious efforts there
[29:06.680 -> 29:08.080] to take your own life.
[29:09.080 -> 29:11.840] Take us into that of what precipitated it.
[29:11.840 -> 29:14.000] Where did those thoughts come from?
[29:14.000 -> 29:16.600] You mentioned that you're working with a psychiatrist
[29:16.600 -> 29:17.420] at that moment.
[29:17.420 -> 29:22.420] So where did that intervention start to come into your world?
[29:22.640 -> 29:24.600] I realized I needed to speak to someone
[29:24.600 -> 29:27.520] because I didn't have a maternal, paternal figure
[29:27.520 -> 29:28.360] to go speak to.
[29:28.360 -> 29:30.400] I didn't have a brother.
[29:30.400 -> 29:33.240] I had an unbelievable coach in Sean Edwards
[29:33.240 -> 29:35.320] who looked after me like a son.
[29:35.320 -> 29:37.760] But we spoke about a lot of things.
[29:37.760 -> 29:40.480] I just, to take that step and tell people,
[29:40.480 -> 29:42.800] it's like, you feel this shame.
[29:42.800 -> 29:44.400] Sean advised you to go and-
[29:44.400 -> 29:48.320] No, he didn't advise me to go. I'm'm just I'm saying I had people around that were great
[29:48.320 -> 29:52.360] but I knew I had to go and see someone because of the thoughts I was having and the way that
[29:52.360 -> 29:56.440] I was thinking and rugby was my escape so when you talk about high performance it's
[29:56.440 -> 30:02.040] like that was the easy bit that was the bit that made me feel alive that was a bit that
[30:02.040 -> 30:06.440] made me feel worthy but then as soon as it stopped, it's like, bang, you're straight back into it.
[30:06.440 -> 30:08.920] So how do you figure yourself out?
[30:08.920 -> 30:10.420] How do you figure out your own desires
[30:10.420 -> 30:15.280] and your own traumas to sit here in a place of peace?
[30:15.280 -> 30:16.680] Like, you know?
[30:16.680 -> 30:19.440] So what kind of discussions were you having
[30:19.440 -> 30:20.560] with your psychiatrist?
[30:20.560 -> 30:22.960] And what kind of lessons were you learning
[30:22.960 -> 30:24.320] that could help you?
[30:24.320 -> 30:25.920] Do you know what, with the psychiatrist,
[30:25.920 -> 30:28.600] it didn't feel relatable when someone's sitting there
[30:28.600 -> 30:31.080] with a clipboard and, you know, for me,
[30:32.000 -> 30:34.920] the best thing for me was when I met Steve Black, right?
[30:34.920 -> 30:39.440] And he spoke on a human level and he saw me for me
[30:39.440 -> 30:42.000] and I was like, we've only just met
[30:42.000 -> 30:45.520] and you're saying all these things that are relatable to me.
[30:45.520 -> 30:46.360] Like what?
[30:46.360 -> 30:49.240] Just from what I'd seen in the talent and the way I played
[30:49.240 -> 30:51.720] and the snippets you would have seen of me
[30:51.720 -> 30:55.160] and saying I was like a lovable good guy and all this.
[30:55.160 -> 30:57.140] And you don't feel that about yourself in those moments.
[30:57.140 -> 30:58.760] Like, well, I didn't,
[30:58.760 -> 31:00.720] but yet my focus is always on the performance.
[31:00.720 -> 31:02.260] It's always ongoing there.
[31:02.260 -> 31:04.720] So at work and at game day, it's fine.
[31:04.720 -> 31:08.160] It's that home time period of how do I find peace within this?
[31:08.320 -> 31:10.360] I remember I met Steve in Manchester.
[31:10.560 -> 31:11.760] I thought we was going to meet for half an hour.
[31:11.760 -> 31:12.840] We sat down for four hours.
[31:13.320 -> 31:15.560] I came away, I was like, I love that man.
[31:15.600 -> 31:16.880] Like, wow.
[31:17.360 -> 31:20.680] We started our relationship, like we'd meet every week, speak all the time.
[31:20.680 -> 31:25.440] And, and I've had other key people in my life that I've met that have taught
[31:25.440 -> 31:30.960] me so many things and you can learn from, but you have to listen to the voice inside,
[31:30.960 -> 31:36.000] you have to listen to what that's saying and you also have to recognize that your thoughts,
[31:36.000 -> 31:41.620] they're not true and things like meditation and things like searching into spirituality
[31:41.620 -> 31:49.040] for me have brought me the most amount of peace, man. And it's been my quest, my desire, my search,
[31:49.040 -> 31:51.720] my whole life for more, for these things.
[31:51.720 -> 31:53.960] So what's been the most effective?
[31:53.960 -> 31:57.320] It's an accumulation because I can't say MB is one thing.
[31:57.320 -> 31:58.920] It's people you love, it's opening up,
[31:58.920 -> 32:01.240] it's being able to talk, it's sharing,
[32:01.240 -> 32:03.560] it's doing it with people you trust
[32:03.560 -> 32:05.880] and getting to a point where you don't mind sharing
[32:05.880 -> 32:07.960] in a public arena.
[32:07.960 -> 32:10.840] But you start off by talking to people you trust
[32:10.840 -> 32:12.760] and letting them know how you feel.
[32:12.760 -> 32:15.200] Cause it feels like, how do I get over this?
[32:15.200 -> 32:17.960] As soon as you share, you drop that mask,
[32:17.960 -> 32:20.600] you be vulnerable, someone responds back in the same way.
[32:20.600 -> 32:22.000] It happens all the time.
[32:22.000 -> 32:24.360] And if that person turns around and says something negative,
[32:24.360 -> 32:25.760] you don't want them in your life,
[32:25.760 -> 32:27.400] because that's not a good friend
[32:27.400 -> 32:29.560] or a good person to be around.
[32:29.560 -> 32:31.240] Everyone has their start to life.
[32:31.240 -> 32:33.680] Everyone has their own experiences, their own traumas,
[32:33.680 -> 32:38.200] everything they go through, insecurities, fears, worries,
[32:38.200 -> 32:40.680] but I believe it's your own individual job
[32:40.680 -> 32:42.200] to become the best version of yourself.
[32:42.200 -> 32:45.240] And that doesn't mean to be the guy to play for England
[32:45.240 -> 32:47.080] or to get the money and do that,
[32:47.080 -> 32:49.320] because that's not a fulfilling place to be.
[32:49.320 -> 32:52.320] Like when I was doing that, I didn't feel super fulfilled.
[32:52.320 -> 32:53.200] It was momentary.
[32:53.200 -> 32:56.880] And I can't really remember those amazing moments anyway.
[32:56.880 -> 32:58.800] It's in memory, that's it.
[32:58.800 -> 33:01.460] And you relay it in a different way
[33:01.460 -> 33:03.060] to what it was then anyway.
[33:03.060 -> 33:06.200] I was so intrigued into meeting like family men
[33:06.200 -> 33:08.300] and their environments and how it looked.
[33:08.300 -> 33:11.700] And I went to a Malibu when I was like 25
[33:11.700 -> 33:13.260] and yeah, it's a beautiful glamorous place,
[33:13.260 -> 33:14.540] but I met a guy called Laird Hamilton,
[33:14.540 -> 33:19.540] like this strong macho surfer who surfs a hundred foot waves
[33:19.740 -> 33:22.400] but is like the most beautiful and kind father
[33:22.400 -> 33:24.740] to his daughters and his wife and people around.
[33:24.740 -> 33:27.120] And it was like, man, that's, that's cool.
[33:27.120 -> 33:31.680] When the way he would speak was so open and vulnerable when it just, it brings it out of you.
[33:31.680 -> 33:35.120] So you immediately create a connection where it's like, this feels freeing.
[33:35.120 -> 33:36.800] This feels open.
[33:36.800 -> 33:41.600] It's not either of you wearing a mask and you can have that with people you love.
[33:41.600 -> 33:46.880] Like take those steps of having those combos. So which has been the environment you've been into
[33:46.880 -> 33:50.200] where you have felt you really truly belong,
[33:50.200 -> 33:52.580] you can drop the mask, you can be yourself?
[33:52.580 -> 33:54.840] I felt it as a youngster when I was playing,
[33:54.840 -> 33:58.120] like for sure I went into like the most successful WOS team.
[33:58.120 -> 33:59.240] Sean used to say,
[33:59.240 -> 34:03.080] he called us like an orphanage of just random,
[34:03.080 -> 34:04.480] an accumulation of people,
[34:04.480 -> 34:05.960] different people with different walks of life.
[34:05.960 -> 34:08.760] And we didn't have the most strict training regime,
[34:08.760 -> 34:10.240] but on Saturday, everyone turned up
[34:10.240 -> 34:12.040] and it was just a really good feel.
[34:12.040 -> 34:14.440] It was an unbelievable environment to go into,
[34:14.440 -> 34:17.160] but like as things happen in sport, it changes all the time.
[34:17.160 -> 34:19.760] So you don't hold onto that forever.
[34:19.760 -> 34:21.440] You have new experiences, new people,
[34:21.440 -> 34:23.440] and you come up against different hurdles.
[34:23.440 -> 34:24.680] So that felt great.
[34:24.680 -> 34:26.360] And again, going back to WUS,
[34:26.360 -> 34:27.680] the second time was great for me
[34:27.680 -> 34:29.440] because we had a changer room,
[34:29.440 -> 34:33.160] which was, we had like 10, 12 people in our changer room
[34:33.160 -> 34:34.360] and it was like our safe space
[34:34.360 -> 34:35.520] and everyone got really close
[34:35.520 -> 34:38.360] and it was a beautiful environment.
[34:38.360 -> 34:40.140] But again, I wasn't in a position then,
[34:40.140 -> 34:42.320] like I am now being able to speak about these things.
[34:42.320 -> 34:44.820] I was still going through what I was going through in life.
[34:44.820 -> 34:47.940] And the performance never really wavered
[34:47.940 -> 34:49.900] when I came back from Australia at 24.
[34:49.900 -> 34:52.480] It was at a high level,
[34:52.480 -> 34:55.040] but then I wasn't getting what I wanted to get.
[34:55.040 -> 34:56.500] I wasn't playing for England.
[34:56.500 -> 34:59.480] And there was so many things that were coming up against me
[34:59.480 -> 35:01.860] and I had to accept a lot of it,
[35:01.860 -> 35:03.080] but there was things that were like,
[35:03.080 -> 35:04.980] were out of my control.
[35:04.980 -> 35:05.000] And again, you dive was things that were like, were out of my control.
[35:05.000 -> 35:08.080] And again, you dive deep, you dive internally,
[35:08.080 -> 35:10.340] like how can you find peace with it?
[35:10.340 -> 35:14.240] How can you be happy and enjoy that that happened?
[35:14.240 -> 35:15.080] Because there's a lesson,
[35:15.080 -> 35:16.760] there's something to learn from everything.
[35:16.760 -> 35:18.480] And that's how I handle things now.
[35:18.480 -> 35:19.720] And that's how I view things,
[35:19.720 -> 35:21.960] the experiences I'm excited for them,
[35:21.960 -> 35:24.240] whether this comes across great or bad,
[35:24.240 -> 35:25.920] it's not in my control.
[35:25.920 -> 35:27.880] I can just speak my truth and be truthful
[35:27.880 -> 35:29.860] and vulnerable in that sense,
[35:29.860 -> 35:32.820] and the rest of it's not really down to me.
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[37:15.840 -> 37:19.600] There will be some of your former coaches listening to this, I've no doubt.
[37:19.600 -> 37:25.600] What advice would you give them that maybe they could have done to create an environment
[37:25.600 -> 37:28.160] and a culture that would have allowed you to thrive?
[37:28.160 -> 37:29.920] Well, I've studied a lot of this.
[37:29.920 -> 37:34.400] I've looked at different coaches and sportsmen and people and, you know, the best coaches
[37:34.400 -> 37:37.600] are the ones that are the most emotionally intelligent, right?
[37:37.600 -> 37:39.720] Shaun Edwards, unbelievably so.
[37:39.720 -> 37:41.300] He's lived life, he's been through it.
[37:41.300 -> 37:46.600] He will share and you will go and do everything for him because he's as vulnerable
[37:46.600 -> 37:49.120] and open with you as you are with him.
[37:49.120 -> 37:53.700] You know, but there is a culture in rugby of being the man
[37:53.700 -> 37:56.580] or the macho or the, you know, coming across
[37:56.580 -> 38:00.020] like you know it and that can feel good
[38:00.020 -> 38:02.600] like you think you know it, but ultimately you don't,
[38:02.600 -> 38:05.280] we don't, it's like having that tie to a coach
[38:05.280 -> 38:07.880] and being able to share and have that emotion.
[38:07.880 -> 38:09.960] You know, you don't see that so much in rugby.
[38:09.960 -> 38:11.400] There's certain coaches across the league
[38:11.400 -> 38:12.960] that definitely get it right.
[38:12.960 -> 38:15.560] You know, it's not the whole sport as a whole.
[38:15.560 -> 38:17.760] You know, not everyone can be Pep Guardiola.
[38:17.760 -> 38:20.520] Not everyone can get that emotional engagement
[38:20.520 -> 38:22.720] with his athletes, but that's where it needs to go.
[38:22.720 -> 38:23.600] That's where it needs to grow.
[38:23.600 -> 38:24.600] That's where you need to see it.
[38:24.600 -> 38:27.520] And in doing so, performances will skyrocket.
[38:27.520 -> 38:29.180] You'll see more creativity on the field.
[38:29.180 -> 38:31.640] You'll see it looking more like artwork
[38:31.640 -> 38:33.840] and people will generally be happier
[38:33.840 -> 38:36.440] and not having to just like come to work,
[38:36.440 -> 38:37.960] get on with it and get out
[38:37.960 -> 38:40.480] because there's a lot of unhappy people within it
[38:40.480 -> 38:42.040] as there is in life, you know?
[38:42.040 -> 38:43.400] And what do you think inhibits people
[38:43.400 -> 38:45.920] from doing what Sean Edwards did for you
[38:45.920 -> 38:48.200] of being vulnerable and emotionally intelligent?
[38:48.200 -> 38:51.680] Your own personal work, your own internal work
[38:51.680 -> 38:53.600] of what you go through, what you experience
[38:53.600 -> 38:54.920] and how you view it.
[38:54.920 -> 38:56.240] Are you in a blame culture?
[38:56.240 -> 38:59.920] Are you not accepting, you know, this position you're in?
[38:59.920 -> 39:01.400] You know, are you not being truthful?
[39:01.400 -> 39:02.880] Are you trying to hold a facade?
[39:02.880 -> 39:03.900] Are you wearing a mask?
[39:03.900 -> 39:07.240] Like, all these are like emotionally intelligent
[39:07.240 -> 39:10.580] conversations to have internally with yourself
[39:10.580 -> 39:12.800] and not feel like, oh yeah, I've got it.
[39:12.800 -> 39:13.640] Everyone's got it.
[39:13.640 -> 39:15.520] Like, you know, everyone doesn't,
[39:15.520 -> 39:17.920] like we have that, like I say,
[39:17.920 -> 39:20.280] facade that people carry.
[39:20.280 -> 39:22.880] So yeah, it's, I think it's just connecting
[39:22.880 -> 39:24.400] a bit deeper as a group.
[39:24.400 -> 39:26.720] And you see that in some of the best performances.
[39:26.720 -> 39:31.920] You see that when you see a South African team and they're rooted in history and heritage
[39:31.920 -> 39:34.480] and they live and they die for each other.
[39:34.480 -> 39:36.040] And it's like, how do you create that?
[39:36.040 -> 39:37.040] How do you do that?
[39:37.040 -> 39:40.200] I'm interested, you mentioned South Africa.
[39:40.200 -> 39:45.520] We were lucky enough to have Sia Khaleesi on the podcast who spoke around
[39:50.900 -> 39:56.480] When he took over as a leader, it was all about vulnerability of that theme of Ubuntu I am because you are so I'll be my authentic self to allow you to do that. Beautiful man
[39:56.860 -> 40:02.100] So can you give us some tips on what you've experienced that?
[40:02.560 -> 40:06.200] if people wanted the might be listening to this, say, in a classroom
[40:06.200 -> 40:08.680] as a teacher or as a business leader,
[40:08.680 -> 40:13.160] or even as a father of a family like Jake and I are,
[40:13.160 -> 40:18.160] what can we do to create emotional intelligence
[40:18.480 -> 40:20.560] in our own spaces?
[40:20.560 -> 40:23.000] When you're trying to teach or you're trying to discipline
[40:23.000 -> 40:24.920] or you're trying to show,
[40:24.920 -> 40:27.740] you streamline your behaviors along that.
[40:27.740 -> 40:31.100] But when you're in a two-way relationship,
[40:31.100 -> 40:34.820] whether it be a child or a player or a student,
[40:34.820 -> 40:37.900] that's the type of relationship where you're open
[40:37.900 -> 40:39.780] and you're vulnerable and you're honest
[40:39.780 -> 40:43.020] and you share your truth and you behave as such
[40:43.020 -> 40:45.880] and you are truthful and so on and so on.
[40:45.880 -> 40:47.680] That's something to look up to and lead by,
[40:47.680 -> 40:51.800] as well as the feeling you get as a player or a student
[40:51.800 -> 40:55.920] or a child would be, you feel engaged, you feel seen,
[40:55.920 -> 40:59.520] you feel part of it, you feel like we're going through.
[40:59.520 -> 41:03.380] And I know it's easy to think you have to discipline
[41:03.380 -> 41:04.300] and to do these things.
[41:04.300 -> 41:06.840] And of course, there'll be moments, you know,
[41:06.840 -> 41:07.980] that that happens.
[41:07.980 -> 41:11.080] But the only thing that we have on them is age.
[41:11.080 -> 41:13.880] Like there's no title that gets given,
[41:13.880 -> 41:15.940] oh, dad or mom, you're still human being,
[41:15.940 -> 41:19.180] you're just older and you've learned a bit more.
[41:19.180 -> 41:23.000] So how would you deliver that to a child
[41:23.000 -> 41:24.380] or a student or a player?
[41:24.380 -> 41:27.180] Like, how would you share your true experiences,
[41:27.180 -> 41:30.240] your pitfalls, so I feel like I know this person,
[41:30.240 -> 41:33.160] I know that guy, I'm going out for them all week.
[41:33.160 -> 41:34.560] Because you can feel the disconnect,
[41:34.560 -> 41:37.320] like I felt it in so many different ways in my life.
[41:37.320 -> 41:39.920] And I'm trying to live my truest authentic self
[41:39.920 -> 41:44.640] and be as real as I can and in doing so, magic happens, man.
[41:44.640 -> 41:47.520] I married a beautiful woman, like amazing.
[41:47.520 -> 41:50.720] I never thought that'd ever be my story.
[41:50.720 -> 41:51.560] Why not?
[41:52.600 -> 41:54.900] Because I was in that program of behaving the way I was.
[41:54.900 -> 41:56.760] And I remember when I was young,
[41:56.760 -> 41:59.840] I had older athletes, senior players telling me like,
[41:59.840 -> 42:01.760] stay single, Danny, play the field.
[42:01.760 -> 42:05.840] And I'm an impressionable 17, 18 year old kid.
[42:05.840 -> 42:09.040] I listened to that, I'm like, okay, all right,
[42:09.040 -> 42:09.880] I'll go do that.
[42:09.880 -> 42:10.700] And I did that.
[42:10.700 -> 42:12.000] Like, do you know what I mean?
[42:12.000 -> 42:16.380] And it didn't cause me happiness and fulfillment.
[42:16.380 -> 42:18.360] You know, it can hit your ego
[42:18.360 -> 42:19.720] and you can feel like this and that,
[42:19.720 -> 42:22.760] but like you don't ever want to have that manipulation power
[42:22.760 -> 42:23.600] on someone else.
[42:23.600 -> 42:26.520] Cause that's what it is really when you're in a scenario, but you know what the truth is and you know, you don't ever want to have that manipulation power on someone else. Cause that's what it is really when you're in a scenario,
[42:26.520 -> 42:28.280] but you know what the truth is and you know,
[42:28.280 -> 42:29.120] you don't want to commit,
[42:29.120 -> 42:32.080] but I'm going to manipulate you so I can get what I want.
[42:32.080 -> 42:36.160] And it's like, as much as you want to behave like that,
[42:36.160 -> 42:38.720] that's going to bear on your soul at some point.
[42:38.720 -> 42:41.800] And what was the moment when you did finally
[42:41.800 -> 42:44.280] like look in the mirror and realize
[42:44.280 -> 42:46.120] I don't like what I'm doing here.
[42:46.120 -> 42:49.560] Man, like life intervened.
[42:49.560 -> 42:51.880] I met my wife, we got pregnant.
[42:52.840 -> 42:56.480] Then I committed and I said that,
[42:56.480 -> 42:59.520] I want to get to know you to the best of my ability.
[42:59.520 -> 43:01.800] And she did the same.
[43:01.800 -> 43:02.880] I was vulnerable and open.
[43:02.880 -> 43:07.040] And it was the first time I was like, this is me.
[43:07.040 -> 43:08.640] This is everything I got.
[43:08.640 -> 43:09.480] We did it on the phone,
[43:09.480 -> 43:10.820] because we're in a different country for a long time.
[43:10.820 -> 43:13.840] And in doing so, I fell in love with her.
[43:13.840 -> 43:15.320] In two weeks on the phone, I was like,
[43:15.320 -> 43:17.660] I can't wait to go back and see her.
[43:17.660 -> 43:19.420] Got back, spent every day with her.
[43:19.420 -> 43:23.060] And it's like, it doesn't mean it's perfect every day,
[43:23.060 -> 43:26.480] but you're still bringing your own past and your own issues to the relationship,
[43:26.480 -> 43:29.680] but the commitment and the space she held for me
[43:29.680 -> 43:32.600] to be loved and show me who I am really
[43:32.600 -> 43:35.560] allowed me to come into my own,
[43:35.560 -> 43:37.580] step into who I am,
[43:37.580 -> 43:39.120] who I feel I've always been.
[43:40.060 -> 43:43.240] And yeah, a special man.
[43:44.440 -> 43:45.920] How old were you when you said that to her?
[43:45.920 -> 43:48.600] This is who I am, this is me being vulnerable.
[43:48.600 -> 43:50.800] Like 31, 32.
[43:50.800 -> 43:55.640] That's a long life to live without opening up like that.
[43:55.640 -> 43:57.320] For people who are still in the place
[43:57.320 -> 43:59.680] where you were a decade before that,
[44:00.720 -> 44:03.600] how freeing is it to say that?
[44:03.600 -> 44:05.640] What would your advice be to them?
[44:05.640 -> 44:07.980] You know around you who loves you.
[44:07.980 -> 44:10.400] That's always been a question of mine
[44:10.400 -> 44:13.160] because of my life with my dad leaving
[44:13.160 -> 44:16.160] and my mom not being, you know,
[44:16.160 -> 44:17.760] you never get what you want as a kid,
[44:17.760 -> 44:19.200] no matter what, everyone's got their own thing.
[44:19.200 -> 44:20.280] There's no slight on my mom.
[44:20.280 -> 44:23.000] She's a great woman in everything that she is,
[44:23.000 -> 44:25.960] but you want that affection, that love, that kindness,
[44:25.960 -> 44:26.880] whatever it is.
[44:27.880 -> 44:28.720] And-
[44:28.720 -> 44:29.540] And you didn't have that?
[44:29.540 -> 44:31.000] No, I didn't.
[44:31.000 -> 44:34.280] And, but she was great in so many other ways.
[44:34.280 -> 44:37.040] That was just the way she showed love.
[44:37.040 -> 44:40.720] And until you can reflect and really understand it,
[44:40.720 -> 44:43.520] you can't speak the truth on it and you mask over it
[44:43.520 -> 44:44.460] and you cover it.
[44:43.520 -> 44:44.460] you can't speak the truth on it and you mask over it and you cover it.
[44:46.640 -> 44:51.640] So to feel lovable or like I mattered or whatever it was,
[44:52.400 -> 44:53.640] it was an issue of mine.
[44:53.640 -> 44:56.040] I didn't feel that, I didn't know who I could turn to.
[44:56.040 -> 44:57.800] My mom and dad, I couldn't really turn to them.
[44:57.800 -> 44:59.800] So who am I turning to?
[45:02.720 -> 45:05.000] I never allowed anyone close enough to really share
[45:06.520 -> 45:11.520] or open up until the universe, God, whatever intervened.
[45:12.720 -> 45:16.840] And we lost the baby at 27 weeks, which is tough,
[45:16.840 -> 45:21.840] but the beauty is he brought us together, my wife and I,
[45:23.160 -> 45:25.840] and he gave me a chance to be here
[45:27.640 -> 45:29.640] and be like, this is who I am.
[45:29.640 -> 45:30.480] Amazing.
[45:30.480 -> 45:33.440] This is what I've been through.
[45:33.440 -> 45:34.280] Yeah.
[45:34.280 -> 45:35.600] I'm not perfect.
[45:35.600 -> 45:37.200] I never claimed to be,
[45:37.200 -> 45:39.920] but I'm willing to bear all and be real
[45:39.920 -> 45:44.000] because I feel as a culture, English culture,
[45:44.000 -> 45:47.100] I feel as a sporting country,
[45:47.100 -> 45:48.520] I believe we're behind the eight ball.
[45:48.520 -> 45:49.600] I believe we're behind it.
[45:49.600 -> 45:52.780] We don't, the way we speak about each other
[45:52.780 -> 45:55.920] in the media and so on, as I mentioned,
[45:55.920 -> 45:57.600] I don't think it allows us to fully get
[45:57.600 -> 45:58.840] into our authentic selves
[45:58.840 -> 46:00.600] because we're all trying to be a type of way
[46:00.600 -> 46:03.520] because we don't want people to know the truth
[46:03.520 -> 46:05.020] because the truth is terrible.
[46:05.020 -> 46:06.460] No, it's not.
[46:06.460 -> 46:07.880] Everyone goes through the same things.
[46:07.880 -> 46:09.500] It's just a different spotlight.
[46:09.500 -> 46:11.240] It's a different version.
[46:11.240 -> 46:12.700] You know, everyone's got something
[46:12.700 -> 46:13.820] you can learn from everyone.
[46:13.820 -> 46:15.120] Everyone can be relatable.
[46:15.120 -> 46:17.340] Everyone has those emotions.
[46:17.340 -> 46:21.160] And I hope that that's something that can get changed
[46:21.160 -> 46:22.000] and it can do.
[46:22.000 -> 46:23.300] And I see somewhere like America,
[46:23.300 -> 46:26.100] where I feel their athletes get to own their own narrative
[46:26.100 -> 46:27.920] and they get to be more authentic.
[46:27.920 -> 46:30.460] And you see the levels of performance and the genius
[46:30.460 -> 46:33.180] and the talent and the consistency,
[46:33.180 -> 46:34.720] but also they have a lot of fun off the field
[46:34.720 -> 46:36.580] and they make changes and they go to communities
[46:36.580 -> 46:39.640] and they build and they create massive better environments
[46:39.640 -> 46:43.220] for people that they were like when they were younger
[46:43.220 -> 46:44.280] and so on and so on.
[46:45.120 -> 46:48.000] And I believe we miss a huge disconnect
[46:48.000 -> 46:51.680] or a potential or an opportunity in this country to do so
[46:51.680 -> 46:53.640] because we have this stiff upper lip mentality,
[46:53.640 -> 46:55.480] this English culture,
[46:55.480 -> 46:57.900] which has got so many positives to it,
[46:57.900 -> 47:00.920] but just relaxing and being vulnerable and being truthful,
[47:00.920 -> 47:03.920] why is that seen as such an outrageous thing
[47:03.920 -> 47:04.920] to do in this country?
[47:04.920 -> 47:07.500] Like it shouldn't be, it should be real.
[47:07.500 -> 47:09.520] And then people aren't carrying what they carry
[47:09.520 -> 47:12.460] and then people don't want to do what, you know,
[47:12.460 -> 47:14.420] unfortunately people end up doing.
[47:14.420 -> 47:16.800] And I think one of the most important things we can all do
[47:16.800 -> 47:19.360] is take responsibility in this situation.
[47:19.360 -> 47:20.800] Because I'm sure there are people listening to this
[47:20.800 -> 47:23.800] going, well, the bloody media causing Danny
[47:23.800 -> 47:25.200] all those problems when he was
[47:25.200 -> 47:30.000] a rugby player or whatever. But I think we all have to understand the role that we all
[47:30.000 -> 47:37.360] play in this, our own addiction to negative news, our own social media pylons, you know,
[47:37.360 -> 47:42.360] your former partner and the whole, you know, be kind conversation. I'm sure that was an
[47:42.360 -> 47:51.720] especially hard period for you because you'd been through this and you know, she would no doubt have come to you to say, how can I get through
[47:51.720 -> 47:55.900] this period? And you were there and I know you shared a lot with her about what you'd
[47:55.900 -> 48:02.520] experienced, but ultimately it wasn't enough to save her. But I see all that. And then
[48:02.520 -> 48:08.360] I see us going back to the way we were minutes later, not even days later.
[48:09.080 -> 48:10.000] Yeah, you're spot on.
[48:10.000 -> 48:13.160] And hate or anger never solves anything.
[48:13.160 -> 48:16.720] And us being like, oh, it's them and so on,
[48:16.720 -> 48:18.640] it's just going to create a bigger divide
[48:18.640 -> 48:21.320] and it will create an even more fanfare
[48:21.320 -> 48:23.880] and welfare to have negative news.
[48:23.880 -> 48:25.300] You know, on the motorway when you're driving,
[48:25.300 -> 48:26.260] there's a crash on the side.
[48:26.260 -> 48:28.020] Why is there always a queue of traffic on the other way?
[48:28.020 -> 48:30.620] Because they want to see like, it's in our nature,
[48:30.620 -> 48:33.940] but also, you know, how do we change that?
[48:33.940 -> 48:36.140] How do we have these open, honest conversations?
[48:36.140 -> 48:38.580] Because consciousness is moving around us everywhere.
[48:38.580 -> 48:40.660] Everyone's becoming more awake or aware
[48:40.660 -> 48:43.800] or whatever it might be.
[48:43.800 -> 48:47.480] And I just feel like we can make, create a shift.
[48:47.480 -> 48:50.600] Like there is so many platforms and opportunities
[48:50.600 -> 48:51.760] for us to do so.
[48:51.760 -> 48:53.160] 20 years ago when I started,
[48:53.160 -> 48:55.360] I couldn't have put a tweet out after a negative story
[48:55.360 -> 48:56.200] because it didn't exist.
[48:56.200 -> 48:57.560] I couldn't create a show or do an interview
[48:57.560 -> 49:00.160] or give a video and say what I wanted to say.
[49:00.160 -> 49:02.400] So as much as there is a lots of negativity
[49:02.400 -> 49:04.280] around the social media and the, you know,
[49:04.280 -> 49:05.920] comparing yourself to others,
[49:05.920 -> 49:09.320] there can also be lots of beauty within it, like everything.
[49:09.320 -> 49:13.400] And being true, being honest and being open,
[49:13.400 -> 49:15.960] not only do other people benefit
[49:15.960 -> 49:19.000] because they feel more comfortable, you benefit
[49:19.000 -> 49:21.120] because you realize you're not carrying this weight,
[49:21.120 -> 49:23.320] this jacket, this lead.
[49:23.320 -> 49:26.300] I walk down the street and I say hello to everyone I meet
[49:26.300 -> 49:27.280] with a smile on my face.
[49:27.280 -> 49:29.120] Like, they must think I'm a crazy guy,
[49:29.120 -> 49:33.480] but from where I was, I say hello every day.
[49:33.480 -> 49:34.320] Do you know what I mean?
[49:34.320 -> 49:37.640] Like, it's just the way I feel now.
[49:37.640 -> 49:39.440] As I'm listening to you, Danny,
[49:39.440 -> 49:40.720] the thought keeps coming into my head
[49:40.720 -> 49:45.360] that I think your talent has got in the way of you
[49:45.360 -> 49:49.240] discovering this for so long. I think people have forgiven you lots of things
[49:49.240 -> 49:53.700] because you're a talented rugby player and when you maybe sometimes don't live
[49:53.700 -> 49:58.440] up to the talent, seeing you as a human being and your fallibilities and your
[49:58.440 -> 50:06.880] own rawness has almost been neglected. So then that's why you felt like these horrible moments
[50:06.880 -> 50:09.000] of considering suicide and things like that,
[50:09.000 -> 50:11.760] feeling hollow at the heart of it.
[50:11.760 -> 50:14.120] I'm interested as to, one,
[50:14.120 -> 50:16.720] why would you consider going back into a world
[50:16.720 -> 50:19.240] where those perceptions of,
[50:19.240 -> 50:21.320] can he still do it on the rugby field?
[50:21.320 -> 50:23.200] He's gonna get in the way of seeing
[50:23.200 -> 50:25.320] the human being behind it.
[50:25.320 -> 50:29.720] But secondly, what would you do instead to start to shift
[50:29.720 -> 50:31.120] the narrative of these conversations
[50:31.120 -> 50:32.880] for a community as a whole?
[50:32.880 -> 50:36.480] I feel my talent allowed me to find out who I am though,
[50:36.480 -> 50:41.440] because being in the moment was where I excelled.
[50:41.440 -> 50:46.500] And I feel like I'm in that now in my walk of life, my everyday conversations
[50:46.500 -> 50:49.160] because being present is all that we have
[50:49.160 -> 50:52.260] and previously I'm living in past thoughts
[50:52.260 -> 50:56.820] or I'm living in what I want to be in the future.
[50:56.820 -> 51:00.220] Whereas now, where I, how I felt on the field
[51:00.220 -> 51:02.060] is how I live my everyday.
[51:02.060 -> 51:04.840] And even till six months ago, the realizations,
[51:04.840 -> 51:07.920] the understandings, the awareness of what's coming to me,
[51:07.920 -> 51:10.120] it's changing all the time, you know?
[51:10.120 -> 51:12.360] And that's beautiful.
[51:12.360 -> 51:15.880] You can't hold on to something and feel, I've got it now.
[51:15.880 -> 51:18.880] Because then the next thing that comes and throws you off,
[51:18.880 -> 51:20.520] you know, you realize you've got to let go again.
[51:20.520 -> 51:22.480] You've just got to be who you are.
[51:22.480 -> 51:26.560] And I'm now in a position where I want to go back
[51:26.560 -> 51:29.280] into that world and play with this frame of mind
[51:29.280 -> 51:32.800] because I won't have to do the thing to get into the zone.
[51:32.800 -> 51:34.320] I can just go and enjoy it.
[51:34.320 -> 51:37.520] I can go and enjoy my everyday, my interactions.
[51:37.520 -> 51:41.600] I'm not trying to get somewhere or be this personal,
[51:41.600 -> 51:44.080] look like I've got it all figured out.
[51:44.080 -> 51:45.920] Like when it comes to understanding the game of rugby
[51:45.920 -> 51:48.320] or sport, that was a gift of mine.
[51:48.320 -> 51:50.320] I didn't do anything for that.
[51:50.320 -> 51:52.160] I was always going to be Danny Cipriani.
[51:52.160 -> 51:56.640] I was born and I played sport and I wasn't very good at maths.
[51:56.640 -> 51:58.160] Like there's lots of things I wasn't good at,
[51:58.160 -> 52:00.560] but playing sport was my talent.
[52:00.560 -> 52:05.400] And like I say, live and die into your passion, go into it,
[52:05.400 -> 52:07.240] because whatever your desire is,
[52:07.240 -> 52:10.440] it will allow you to figure out more about who you are too.
[52:10.440 -> 52:14.040] And the reason why I want to go and play a game like rugby,
[52:14.040 -> 52:17.280] which has certain limitations with a certain perception
[52:17.280 -> 52:18.880] of how it tries to upkeep,
[52:18.880 -> 52:22.100] to go and play in this way and be who I am,
[52:22.100 -> 52:24.460] man, that would be the most beautiful thing.
[52:24.460 -> 52:27.760] So in terms of understanding performance, I get it.
[52:27.760 -> 52:31.120] Like I've lived it, but there's lots of things
[52:31.120 -> 52:32.960] that I still want to learn about it.
[52:32.960 -> 52:34.800] You know, that came across a bit egotistical.
[52:34.800 -> 52:37.040] I didn't mean it to be, but I was just saying,
[52:37.040 -> 52:39.040] like, that wasn't the difficult part for me.
[52:39.040 -> 52:40.880] I don't think it came across egotistical.
[52:40.880 -> 52:42.080] I think it came across honest.
[52:42.800 -> 52:45.200] And that's where we have to get to,
[52:45.200 -> 52:49.000] but even that is an example of how society makes you think,
[52:49.000 -> 52:50.960] what will the perception of that comment be,
[52:50.960 -> 52:53.320] rather than what is the truth about that comment?
[52:53.320 -> 52:54.720] You know, that feeling of being judged.
[52:54.720 -> 52:56.920] And let's talk about where you're at with that then,
[52:56.920 -> 53:01.520] because there aren't very many professional athletes
[53:01.520 -> 53:02.640] that talk in this way.
[53:03.520 -> 53:05.800] And there'll be people that love this conversation
[53:05.800 -> 53:08.120] and we know the world we live in, right?
[53:08.120 -> 53:10.960] There'll be people that use this as a stick to beat you in
[53:10.960 -> 53:13.080] or they try and pick apart one little comment
[53:13.080 -> 53:15.160] and take it out of context.
[53:15.160 -> 53:17.040] How are you with all that now?
[53:17.040 -> 53:19.200] Well, no one can affect my
[53:20.760 -> 53:22.920] my internal feeling on myself.
[53:22.920 -> 53:25.520] Becoming in control of your own faculties, for me,
[53:25.520 -> 53:28.020] is your sole responsibility in your life,
[53:28.020 -> 53:30.500] because therefore you have more beautiful conversations.
[53:30.500 -> 53:33.060] You have true conversations,
[53:33.060 -> 53:35.540] because you're not projecting your thought onto someone
[53:35.540 -> 53:37.500] because you don't have a feeling about it.
[53:37.500 -> 53:39.460] So if you're having a discussion
[53:39.460 -> 53:41.460] or a heated discussion with your partner
[53:41.460 -> 53:43.900] or your son or whatever,
[53:43.900 -> 53:48.320] you can come at it with your true sense, not any feeling of,
[53:48.320 -> 53:51.360] oh, I feel like this or that, because controlling your own
[53:51.360 -> 53:56.720] internal well-being is everything. And, you know, whatever people want to call it,
[53:56.720 -> 54:01.840] awakening or spirituality or faith, the simple reason that we're here
[54:01.840 -> 54:07.120] is unexplainable. So surely we have to go a bit deeper internally to figure out these questions
[54:07.120 -> 54:09.080] and get some sort of insight on it.
[54:09.080 -> 54:10.680] And yeah, do you know what?
[54:10.680 -> 54:14.800] Like every club I've been to in my career,
[54:14.800 -> 54:17.080] I've always been aware of how it's going
[54:17.080 -> 54:18.800] or the attack situation.
[54:18.800 -> 54:21.520] And I've taken a grip of it and I've been like,
[54:21.520 -> 54:23.360] this is how I want it to go.
[54:23.360 -> 54:26.920] And there's got some success out of it.
[54:26.920 -> 54:29.720] But this previous season recently,
[54:29.720 -> 54:31.760] I was able to sit back and just watch it all.
[54:31.760 -> 54:34.180] And in doing so, I was learning so much about myself
[54:34.180 -> 54:36.360] and my own things about why I wanted to speak
[54:36.360 -> 54:38.460] and what I wanted to say.
[54:38.460 -> 54:41.440] And these were part of the internal things
[54:41.440 -> 54:43.300] that I had to look at and face,
[54:43.300 -> 54:46.560] understand where's that coming from? Why am I wanting to do that?
[54:46.560 -> 54:47.720] This wasn't me going in saying,
[54:47.720 -> 54:48.880] look, we have to play this way
[54:48.880 -> 54:50.880] because I know this will get success.
[54:50.880 -> 54:54.480] And like I said, rugby was the easy part,
[54:54.480 -> 54:56.160] the enjoyable part, the fun part.
[54:57.280 -> 54:58.800] When I sat back,
[54:58.800 -> 55:00.120] the amount of things that were coming through me
[55:00.120 -> 55:03.360] and my wife was the one who suggested
[55:03.360 -> 55:05.200] that I don't go in there and try and run the ship
[55:05.200 -> 55:06.640] and do the thing.
[55:06.640 -> 55:09.700] And in doing so, I learned so much about myself that year.
[55:09.700 -> 55:14.200] And so on, and it keeps going, and it keeps going,
[55:14.200 -> 55:16.700] and sometimes silence is good,
[55:16.700 -> 55:19.940] sometimes listening is good, you know, meditation.
[55:19.940 -> 55:21.900] Not even sometimes, a lot of the time,
[55:21.900 -> 55:22.840] you know, if you can sit back
[55:22.840 -> 55:24.800] and listen to that internal voice
[55:24.800 -> 55:25.040] and not try and distract yourself and not try and numb it and not try sometimes, a lot of the time, if you can sit back and listen to that internal voice
[55:25.040 -> 55:27.960] and not try and distract yourself and not try and numb it
[55:27.960 -> 55:29.520] and not try and always be busy
[55:29.520 -> 55:31.520] or playing golf every single day,
[55:31.520 -> 55:34.040] like those things are great, those are your passions,
[55:34.040 -> 55:35.120] but you've also got to recognize,
[55:35.120 -> 55:37.440] am I doing this as a distraction or not?
[55:37.440 -> 55:40.400] And those are the honest conversations with yourself.
[55:40.400 -> 55:42.240] Those are the depths you need to go
[55:42.240 -> 55:45.720] and where it can go with all of it.
[55:45.720 -> 55:50.200] And what's the reason for you choosing now to talk like this?
[55:50.200 -> 55:54.680] Because some people can look at the tears in your eyes and think, oh, he's still struggling
[55:54.680 -> 55:55.680] with his past story.
[55:55.680 -> 55:58.480] But I don't think that's the case at all.
[55:58.480 -> 56:03.360] I think like the tears are almost this sense of freedom that you've got, that you're no
[56:03.360 -> 56:05.520] longer there.
[56:05.520 -> 56:08.760] But I also sense that you've got this desire
[56:08.760 -> 56:09.800] to take people with you now
[56:09.800 -> 56:12.580] and open up this way of thinking to other people.
[56:12.580 -> 56:13.420] It's true what you say,
[56:13.420 -> 56:14.660] like people will see all the tears and think,
[56:14.660 -> 56:17.260] oh, that's off, that's struggle.
[56:17.260 -> 56:19.260] What a facade, man, like again,
[56:19.260 -> 56:21.900] like what are we talking about here?
[56:21.900 -> 56:24.040] Like that is such an archaic mentality
[56:24.040 -> 56:27.180] and it is something that is deep embedded in our system,
[56:27.180 -> 56:28.720] unfortunately, right now.
[56:28.720 -> 56:31.720] And you're right, I do have a desire and a passion
[56:31.720 -> 56:32.560] to take people this way
[56:32.560 -> 56:33.640] because I know the greatness
[56:33.640 -> 56:35.120] that can come on the back of it.
[56:35.120 -> 56:37.280] I know with the sessions that I'm doing
[56:37.280 -> 56:39.200] and the way I'm training,
[56:39.200 -> 56:42.120] that the outcomes are incredible,
[56:42.120 -> 56:44.280] but I'm not trying to get these outcomes.
[56:44.280 -> 56:46.460] The energy state's different.
[56:46.460 -> 56:48.540] I train a lot with Johnny in what we do
[56:48.540 -> 56:52.180] and you sit back and you just, you enjoy it.
[56:52.180 -> 56:54.240] You're like, okay, I'm not trying to control any of this,
[56:54.240 -> 56:56.780] but there's deep internal work you do to get there,
[56:56.780 -> 56:58.480] to allow it to come out.
[56:58.480 -> 57:01.100] And there's so many moving parts
[57:01.100 -> 57:04.640] in the rugby field and situation.
[57:04.640 -> 57:07.400] But for me, like the exciting part is
[57:07.400 -> 57:10.400] if something happens or arises in these next six, nine months
[57:11.560 -> 57:14.160] going in without rugby game time,
[57:14.160 -> 57:16.740] but then being able to express yourself fully,
[57:16.740 -> 57:18.980] that will also be like, something's going on here.
[57:18.980 -> 57:20.360] So like, I would love that opportunity,
[57:20.360 -> 57:24.160] but like I said, it would take someone to take,
[57:24.160 -> 57:26.640] not a risk, but be open-minded.
[57:26.640 -> 57:27.980] And I've had some great conversations
[57:27.980 -> 57:29.480] with some great coaches across the world
[57:29.480 -> 57:32.560] that think and view life like that.
[57:32.560 -> 57:35.200] And I've seen how their team plays and what they say,
[57:35.200 -> 57:38.300] and I've phoned them and had great conversation with them.
[57:38.300 -> 57:41.420] So if the opportunity arises, that's cool.
[57:41.420 -> 57:42.880] And, you know, like you say,
[57:42.880 -> 57:44.880] there'll be some people that will see it as soft
[57:44.880 -> 57:46.320] and, or whatever the mentality might be, but it's cool. And, you know, like you say, there'll be some people that will see it as soft and, or whatever
[57:46.320 -> 57:49.200] the mentality might be, but it's real.
[57:49.200 -> 57:50.920] You can't hide down these emotions.
[57:50.920 -> 57:53.120] Like I can't tell you how happy I am every day.
[57:53.120 -> 57:57.240] I can't tell you how happy I am to feel these emotions and sit here and do this.
[57:57.240 -> 57:59.240] I had no idea how this was going to go.
[57:59.240 -> 58:03.000] You know, I had all these ideas and these fears of being like, how can I talk about
[58:03.000 -> 58:04.000] high performance?
[58:04.000 -> 58:05.400] I didn't become the guy.
[58:05.400 -> 58:08.640] And I was like, nah, you just got to be real, man.
[58:08.640 -> 58:12.000] Because like I said, the performance at times
[58:12.000 -> 58:13.200] definitely didn't waver.
[58:13.200 -> 58:16.040] And under the pressure and the scrutiny I was under
[58:16.040 -> 58:19.840] and how I felt, I'm really proud of myself for what I did.
[58:19.840 -> 58:21.680] I also can't own it because like I said,
[58:21.680 -> 58:24.360] it felt like the release, the easy part.
[58:24.360 -> 58:26.800] But yeah, there's so many stories I could tell along the way which
[58:27.240 -> 58:31.920] Will put me under this pressure and I had to go and play and it just it became my freedom
[58:32.760 -> 58:35.460] But now I feel like I live like that amazing
[58:35.460 -> 58:41.540] It's been an absolute pleasure to sit here and and discuss that journey like I just want people to realize though
[58:42.280 -> 58:46.000] Just how many people are like that and how we love to pass judgement.
[58:46.000 -> 58:48.200] You know, we've had conversations with Tyson Fury
[58:48.200 -> 58:50.600] and Max Whitlock and Alex Scott
[58:50.600 -> 58:53.520] and athlete after athlete after athlete
[58:53.520 -> 58:55.720] who is dying on the inside,
[58:55.720 -> 58:57.280] performing on the outside,
[58:57.280 -> 58:59.880] and the whole world is passing an opinion on them.
[58:59.880 -> 59:01.960] And it is toxic and it is everywhere
[59:01.960 -> 59:04.200] and I don't know if it's getting better.
[59:05.500 -> 59:08.320] We're extremely privileged to have a platform
[59:08.320 -> 59:09.620] to speak about it.
[59:09.620 -> 59:13.960] And the difficult part is I feel facing yourself,
[59:13.960 -> 59:17.360] the acceptance, the responsibility, the accountability
[59:17.360 -> 59:18.760] and being good with it
[59:18.760 -> 59:21.480] and then realizing I can move through that now.
[59:21.480 -> 59:25.800] And, you know, the amount of spiritual things I get into and listen
[59:25.800 -> 59:30.000] to and podcasts and things I'm interested in now that I never thought
[59:30.000 -> 59:34.800] I'd be interested in at school. I wasn't that way, I wasn't interested in that way
[59:34.800 -> 59:40.160] of thinking but the things I go into now fascinate me. You feel the words, you
[59:40.160 -> 59:43.800] don't just read them and see them and that's that internal work but like I
[59:43.800 -> 59:45.440] said we're privileged to come and speak
[59:45.440 -> 59:46.400] and share these things.
[59:46.960 -> 59:50.560] It shouldn't be a worry or an issue.
[59:50.560 -> 59:52.640] It shouldn't be having to control everything
[59:52.640 -> 59:55.920] so my athlete doesn't look like he's stepping out of line.
[59:56.480 -> 59:59.280] Because ultimately everyone makes mistakes.
[59:59.920 -> 01:00:02.480] And it doesn't mean that you can just speak your truth
[01:00:02.480 -> 01:00:04.240] and continue behaving as such.
[01:00:04.240 -> 01:00:05.840] Because the only person that will struggle
[01:00:05.840 -> 01:00:07.960] or have issue with that is yourself.
[01:00:07.960 -> 01:00:09.560] You can't lie to yourself.
[01:00:09.560 -> 01:00:10.880] You can't.
[01:00:10.880 -> 01:00:13.760] And the more true you are, the more honest you are,
[01:00:13.760 -> 01:00:14.960] the more you accept it,
[01:00:14.960 -> 01:00:16.880] and the way you can move through it,
[01:00:16.880 -> 01:00:18.840] I believe it's our opportunity to,
[01:00:18.840 -> 01:00:22.040] it's our privilege to share our stories,
[01:00:22.040 -> 01:00:25.700] because I'm comfortable walking down the street after this,
[01:00:25.700 -> 01:00:28.320] having people see me shed a tear, you know,
[01:00:28.320 -> 01:00:30.860] when Caroline passed, I felt compelled to let people know
[01:00:30.860 -> 01:00:32.740] that's not the way.
[01:00:32.740 -> 01:00:37.040] And it might've been seen as not a good career move.
[01:00:37.040 -> 01:00:39.820] And it probably wasn't because when I went back to my club,
[01:00:39.820 -> 01:00:41.360] I felt so vulnerable.
[01:00:41.360 -> 01:00:42.460] I was playing in a great team,
[01:00:42.460 -> 01:00:44.640] but I'm walking around feeling like
[01:00:44.640 -> 01:00:46.240] people don't really know how to handle me now.
[01:00:46.240 -> 01:00:50.760] Like you look like a loose cannon in an environment.
[01:00:50.760 -> 01:00:51.600] So I ended up-
[01:00:51.600 -> 01:00:52.840] So because you spoke out about Caroline's death.
[01:00:52.840 -> 01:00:55.480] Well, on the Monday, I spoke to them about all the things
[01:00:55.480 -> 01:00:58.020] that I ended up pretty much speaking about on that
[01:00:58.020 -> 01:00:59.560] because I just had to shake it off.
[01:00:59.560 -> 01:01:02.320] I was like, it's too much, it's too much.
[01:01:03.460 -> 01:01:07.440] And, you know, I left my contract early,
[01:01:07.440 -> 01:01:11.480] but all the stories around it were, Danny again,
[01:01:12.480 -> 01:01:14.720] he never settles in.
[01:01:14.720 -> 01:01:17.000] He did this or did that.
[01:01:17.000 -> 01:01:17.840] It's none of that.
[01:01:17.840 -> 01:01:18.660] I didn't feel comfortable.
[01:01:18.660 -> 01:01:21.500] I didn't feel I was able to go and express myself truly
[01:01:21.500 -> 01:01:24.480] because I didn't feel like I could get respected
[01:01:24.480 -> 01:01:26.920] or lead a team when that wasn't the sense,
[01:01:26.920 -> 01:01:28.480] that wasn't the energy I was feeling.
[01:01:28.480 -> 01:01:31.560] Because the season before we went to playoffs, we killed it.
[01:01:31.560 -> 01:01:33.360] I got players player of the year,
[01:01:33.360 -> 01:01:36.000] but the narrative around me leaving was so negative.
[01:01:36.000 -> 01:01:39.200] And again, Danny's done this and Danny's done that.
[01:01:39.200 -> 01:01:41.840] When I was talking to people that follow the sport
[01:01:41.840 -> 01:01:43.960] and I said, oh, we're interviewing Danny.
[01:01:43.960 -> 01:01:45.000] Have you got any questions?
[01:01:45.000 -> 01:01:48.700] Is there anything you'd like to ask or know?
[01:01:48.700 -> 01:01:52.520] And if I asked five people, right,
[01:01:52.520 -> 01:01:55.120] I'd say out four of them didn't ask anything
[01:01:55.120 -> 01:01:56.380] about the rugby.
[01:01:56.380 -> 01:01:58.480] It was all about asking about that time
[01:01:58.480 -> 01:02:00.080] he got hit with the bus,
[01:02:00.080 -> 01:02:02.560] asking about when he got arrested in Jersey.
[01:02:02.560 -> 01:02:06.000] Ask him, and it was all perceptions of you
[01:02:06.000 -> 01:02:09.820] from media headlines that what I'd like to do is,
[01:02:09.820 -> 01:02:11.500] cause that's not the impression I have
[01:02:11.500 -> 01:02:13.460] of you sat here meeting today.
[01:02:13.460 -> 01:02:17.060] So what's the biggest misconception about you
[01:02:17.060 -> 01:02:20.820] that people that are drawn to those headlines,
[01:02:20.820 -> 01:02:22.580] what would you like to say to them?
[01:02:22.580 -> 01:02:24.540] I don't know, just watch this interview, I guess,
[01:02:24.540 -> 01:02:25.760] and make your own mind up. There's nothing I can say to them? I don't know, just watch this interview, I guess, and make your own mind up.
[01:02:25.760 -> 01:02:29.080] There's nothing I can say to them to change their view,
[01:02:29.080 -> 01:02:31.800] and it's not in my makeup.
[01:02:31.800 -> 01:02:35.720] There definitely was a time that I felt a desire to do that,
[01:02:35.720 -> 01:02:40.560] but let's just hold back on the judgment as a human being,
[01:02:40.560 -> 01:02:42.920] because if you're a judgmental person,
[01:02:42.920 -> 01:02:45.040] guess who else you're judging yourself?
[01:02:45.040 -> 01:02:48.680] You're judging your own day-to-day interactions,
[01:02:48.680 -> 01:02:49.760] the way you look physically,
[01:02:49.760 -> 01:02:51.360] and all these different things.
[01:02:51.360 -> 01:02:53.320] Because if you are outwardly like that,
[01:02:53.320 -> 01:02:54.320] you're internally like that.
[01:02:54.320 -> 01:02:57.080] You can't mask either or, or do it.
[01:02:57.080 -> 01:02:59.560] It has to be a collective.
[01:02:59.560 -> 01:03:02.640] So for your own sake, don't do that.
[01:03:02.640 -> 01:03:03.800] Because I promise you,
[01:03:03.800 -> 01:03:05.160] when you aren't walking the street
[01:03:05.160 -> 01:03:07.840] judging others, you might start seeing the beauty in others
[01:03:07.840 -> 01:03:09.440] and the beauty in life.
[01:03:09.440 -> 01:03:10.640] I hope that for everyone, man.
[01:03:10.640 -> 01:03:13.560] Like, so I did this interview a couple of years ago.
[01:03:13.560 -> 01:03:15.080] I would have come across so angry and bitter
[01:03:15.080 -> 01:03:17.360] at certain coaches and things, but like,
[01:03:17.360 -> 01:03:18.920] I'm grateful and appreciative for it all
[01:03:18.920 -> 01:03:22.240] because I understood it was for me to learn
[01:03:22.240 -> 01:03:23.600] and grow through and become.
[01:03:23.600 -> 01:03:27.460] And yeah, some things perhaps didn't pan out
[01:03:27.460 -> 01:03:31.620] how I wanted it to pan out, but you know what?
[01:03:31.620 -> 01:03:34.020] I sit peacefully at night, life's gonna come,
[01:03:34.020 -> 01:03:35.900] doesn't mean I've got it sorted at all.
[01:03:35.900 -> 01:03:39.500] Like no doubt other things are gonna happen in the world
[01:03:39.500 -> 01:03:43.340] where it affects you, but my ability to handle it now,
[01:03:43.340 -> 01:03:45.280] I believe is in a much better state.
[01:03:45.280 -> 01:03:49.560] And it doesn't mean that it's always great,
[01:03:49.560 -> 01:03:52.040] but the consistency of my happiness
[01:03:52.040 -> 01:03:54.840] is unparalleled how I used to feel.
[01:03:54.840 -> 01:03:58.960] And my desire, my need for numbing myself with this,
[01:03:58.960 -> 01:04:00.480] I don't have that.
[01:04:00.480 -> 01:04:02.640] I wake up at five, I do a meditation
[01:04:02.640 -> 01:04:04.440] and I feel great afterwards.
[01:04:04.440 -> 01:04:05.840] And my day's great,
[01:04:05.840 -> 01:04:07.600] my interactions are great,
[01:04:07.600 -> 01:04:10.500] even if they might be a bit conflicting
[01:04:10.500 -> 01:04:12.360] and you have those conversations with your wife
[01:04:12.360 -> 01:04:15.160] and your son and your friends.
[01:04:15.160 -> 01:04:18.000] I'm loving life, so if you're gonna have those judgments,
[01:04:18.000 -> 01:04:19.200] watch this and see how you feel,
[01:04:19.200 -> 01:04:21.280] and if it makes you feel a type of way, great,
[01:04:21.280 -> 01:04:23.320] and if not, great.
[01:04:23.320 -> 01:04:24.160] It's interesting, though, isn't it,
[01:04:24.160 -> 01:04:25.760] that people are so fascinated by that.
[01:04:25.760 -> 01:04:28.100] Like, why does it actually, why does it matter?
[01:04:28.100 -> 01:04:30.800] It's kind of an irrelevance to their life, isn't it?
[01:04:30.800 -> 01:04:33.800] But it's this voyeuristic obsession with like,
[01:04:33.800 -> 01:04:34.920] what are other people doing?
[01:04:34.920 -> 01:04:35.760] How are they doing?
[01:04:35.760 -> 01:04:40.040] Yeah, I feel the need to do it because I don't know.
[01:04:40.960 -> 01:04:41.920] If you're doing that,
[01:04:41.920 -> 01:04:43.720] it kind of makes you feel like okay about your own life.
[01:04:43.720 -> 01:04:45.280] Cause that guy's really fucking up.
[01:04:45.280 -> 01:04:46.120] Do you know what I mean?
[01:04:46.120 -> 01:04:50.560] And, but we've got an unbelievable opportunity to,
[01:04:51.440 -> 01:04:54.000] as an athlete, to share your story and be real.
[01:04:54.000 -> 01:04:58.600] And I think if I saw that when I was young,
[01:04:58.600 -> 01:04:59.960] that would have been different, you know,
[01:04:59.960 -> 01:05:01.680] I particularly look at our young footballers
[01:05:01.680 -> 01:05:05.360] because we've got some unbelievably talented players,
[01:05:05.360 -> 01:05:06.840] but they're having to turn it on and off.
[01:05:06.840 -> 01:05:09.200] And you see that with the way they interview.
[01:05:09.200 -> 01:05:11.360] And now you've got to go be a genius.
[01:05:11.360 -> 01:05:13.720] And now you've got to be in a straitjacket.
[01:05:13.720 -> 01:05:14.720] It doesn't work like that.
[01:05:14.720 -> 01:05:18.280] It's difficult to stay on that and keep doing that
[01:05:18.280 -> 01:05:19.260] because life will come at you.
[01:05:19.260 -> 01:05:20.440] Life stories will happen.
[01:05:20.440 -> 01:05:22.440] You see that with really talented kids,
[01:05:22.440 -> 01:05:24.160] you know, the Phil Foden's and the Jacks
[01:05:24.160 -> 01:05:25.440] and how everyone gets onto it.
[01:05:25.440 -> 01:05:29.400] It's like, how are they meant to go and fulfill themselves
[01:05:29.400 -> 01:05:31.900] and live and be their greatest potential,
[01:05:31.900 -> 01:05:33.760] their truest potential,
[01:05:33.760 -> 01:05:35.480] if we're constantly trying to claw back at them
[01:05:35.480 -> 01:05:38.080] to make them feel like us in a negative sense,
[01:05:38.080 -> 01:05:39.680] but they are just like us.
[01:05:39.680 -> 01:05:41.120] They have the same emotions.
[01:05:41.120 -> 01:05:44.180] Let's be real open and honest and find out what they are.
[01:05:44.180 -> 01:05:47.000] We might create an even better sports environment.
[01:05:47.000 -> 01:05:50.200] We might create athletes that kids really look up to,
[01:05:50.200 -> 01:05:51.520] not just because of the talent they've got,
[01:05:51.520 -> 01:05:52.920] because of the human they are.
[01:05:52.920 -> 01:05:55.020] I reckon you could change a whole nation
[01:05:55.020 -> 01:05:56.920] in their mentality and what you're doing.
[01:05:56.920 -> 01:05:57.960] Brilliant.
[01:05:57.960 -> 01:05:59.300] We have some quick fire questions
[01:05:59.300 -> 01:06:01.000] that we always finish our interviews with.
[01:06:01.000 -> 01:06:02.920] I'm looking forward to these with you.
[01:06:02.920 -> 01:06:05.120] What are the three non-negotiables
[01:06:05.120 -> 01:06:07.620] that you and the people around you must buy into?
[01:06:08.640 -> 01:06:12.400] Truth, vulnerability, and love.
[01:06:12.400 -> 01:06:16.200] Being true to yourself, being able to be vulnerable
[01:06:16.200 -> 01:06:18.600] and coming from love, you know,
[01:06:18.600 -> 01:06:20.900] you're always going to find the right answer at some point
[01:06:20.900 -> 01:06:24.040] and it can get streamlined in that way.
[01:06:24.040 -> 01:06:26.480] And if I could have three and a half, I'd be like accountability
[01:06:26.480 -> 01:06:28.040] to or acceptance, one of the two.
[01:06:28.760 -> 01:06:29.080] Nice.
[01:06:29.520 -> 01:06:32.320] What advice would you give to a teenage Danny just starting out?
[01:06:32.720 -> 01:06:33.240] Good luck.
[01:06:34.160 -> 01:06:34.920] It's coming for you.
[01:06:36.120 -> 01:06:37.040] It's coming for you.
[01:06:37.160 -> 01:06:40.960] And at some point it will all figure itself out.
[01:06:41.480 -> 01:06:42.800] What is your biggest strength?
[01:06:43.440 -> 01:06:44.800] And what is your greatest weakness?
[01:06:45.320 -> 01:06:46.360] Depends what circles you're asking.
[01:06:46.360 -> 01:06:47.880] I guess vulnerability can be seen as a strength
[01:06:47.880 -> 01:06:50.360] or weakness, but, you know, it's allowed me to step
[01:06:50.360 -> 01:06:52.440] into who I am and own it.
[01:06:53.400 -> 01:06:57.240] So I guess vulnerability covers both ends of the spectrum.
[01:06:57.240 -> 01:06:59.400] What is one thing about you that we don't know
[01:06:59.400 -> 01:07:00.560] that we should?
[01:07:00.560 -> 01:07:02.320] I went to Venice recently
[01:07:02.320 -> 01:07:04.840] and we listened to this violin quartet.
[01:07:04.840 -> 01:07:06.320] It was so moving, incredible.
[01:07:06.320 -> 01:07:07.840] Like, it was game changer.
[01:07:07.840 -> 01:07:08.840] I loved it.
[01:07:08.840 -> 01:07:11.160] I'm a classical musical fan.
[01:07:11.160 -> 01:07:12.160] Very nice.
[01:07:12.160 -> 01:07:13.840] And this is the final one, really.
[01:07:13.840 -> 01:07:17.720] And this is your last message, really, to people that have listened to this.
[01:07:17.720 -> 01:07:22.840] What is your one final message to them for living a high-performance life?
[01:07:22.840 -> 01:07:26.440] Be true to yourself. accept things that come,
[01:07:26.440 -> 01:07:29.380] and from that place, you can move through it,
[01:07:29.380 -> 01:07:34.380] and live and die in your passion, go into it.
[01:07:34.460 -> 01:07:36.740] Go into it, give yourself, give it everything.
[01:07:36.740 -> 01:07:39.920] Whether you get the outcome you desire or not,
[01:07:39.920 -> 01:07:43.640] it will show you what you need to know about yourself
[01:07:43.640 -> 01:07:47.880] to grow as a human being, to fulfill your potential in life
[01:07:47.880 -> 01:07:52.160] because high performance is your whole life.
[01:07:52.160 -> 01:07:57.120] It's not segregated to your career or wherever it might be.
[01:07:57.120 -> 01:08:01.560] So it's important that you use that in every aspect
[01:08:01.560 -> 01:08:04.360] of your life and in doing so, you'll feel fulfilled,
[01:08:04.360 -> 01:08:05.120] you'll feel in the moment, you'll feel fulfilled, you'll feel in the moment,
[01:08:05.120 -> 01:08:06.920] you'll feel present.
[01:08:06.920 -> 01:08:10.920] And when life throws all the shit things at you,
[01:08:12.360 -> 01:08:13.760] you'll be able to handle it.
[01:08:13.760 -> 01:08:14.600] Fantastic.
[01:08:14.600 -> 01:08:18.800] ♪♪♪
[01:08:18.800 -> 01:08:19.640] Damien.
[01:08:19.640 -> 01:08:20.640] Jake.
[01:08:20.640 -> 01:08:24.960] That conversation with Danny, I mean, wow, it was amazing,
[01:08:24.960 -> 01:08:25.000] but I think it just comes back to the fundamental basic need That conversation with Danny, I mean, wow, it was amazing,
[01:08:25.120 -> 01:08:28.740] but I think it just comes back to the fundamental basic need
[01:08:28.740 -> 01:08:32.660] of every human being, which is to be loved.
[01:08:32.660 -> 01:08:33.500] That's exactly it.
[01:08:33.500 -> 01:08:37.080] And I think listening to his story and trying to process it,
[01:08:37.080 -> 01:08:39.560] I think for a long time, he was loved
[01:08:39.560 -> 01:08:41.900] because of what he could do with a rugby ball in his hands
[01:08:41.900 -> 01:08:43.760] and how he could dictate the terms of play.
[01:08:43.760 -> 01:08:47.120] Or, you know, he was loved for the anecdotes and the stories
[01:08:47.120 -> 01:08:49.420] that maybe took place off the field.
[01:08:49.420 -> 01:08:51.120] When actually what he was looking for
[01:08:51.120 -> 01:08:54.520] was somebody just to love him without caveats,
[01:08:54.520 -> 01:08:57.360] for somebody to love him, just to see him for who he was
[01:08:57.360 -> 01:09:00.560] and the person that he was trying to become.
[01:09:00.560 -> 01:09:03.340] You know, like he described meeting his current wife
[01:09:03.340 -> 01:09:05.360] and how she just loved him
[01:09:05.360 -> 01:09:09.600] and saw him without the mask on and how he was almost wishing that that could have been
[01:09:09.600 -> 01:09:11.960] the case with coaches and his colleagues as well.
[01:09:11.960 -> 01:09:16.680] There's something going on here though, isn't there, with our sports people, because we've
[01:09:16.680 -> 01:09:25.520] spoken to a lot of them, that for whatever reason, the sport or the media or the fans or society or social media or expectation
[01:09:26.160 -> 01:09:31.120] twists everybody up so that by by the end of it so many of them are
[01:09:32.560 -> 01:09:38.480] restricted they're like they're tight there there's no freedom anymore and all of that then
[01:09:39.040 -> 01:09:48.060] alters performance it alters entertainment it al enjoyment, and then it leads to more opinion and more criticism and more derogatory comments.
[01:09:48.060 -> 01:09:53.960] We've got to find a way as society to break free of this need for an opinion over empathy.
[01:09:53.960 -> 01:09:58.080] Like why can't we have empathy for the situation that people are in, even when they're flawed
[01:09:58.080 -> 01:10:00.960] and making mistakes, as Danny openly admits to?
[01:10:00.960 -> 01:10:05.200] Yeah, because I think it's that saying that we don't see people as they are,
[01:10:05.200 -> 01:10:11.440] we see them as we are. And I think seeing people's flaws, their foibles, their,
[01:10:12.080 -> 01:10:18.880] their, like, their cracks in the character actually should make these people more relatable
[01:10:18.880 -> 01:10:30.220] for us. We should look at Danny and say, he's a kid from a council estate that's from a broken home. And yet, despite some of those challenges, he rose to the top of his summit.
[01:10:30.220 -> 01:10:32.040] Did he stay there for as long as he would have wanted?
[01:10:32.040 -> 01:10:32.940] No, maybe not.
[01:10:33.140 -> 01:10:36.760] But actually let's look at what he did achieve and the positives of that, rather
[01:10:36.760 -> 01:10:43.000] than look to drag him down and focus on why he didn't sustain the success at that
[01:10:43.000 -> 01:10:47.080] high level for as long as what other people maybe thought
[01:10:47.080 -> 01:10:48.080] he should have done.
[01:10:48.080 -> 01:10:49.080] And we give them no leeway.
[01:10:49.080 -> 01:10:54.520] You know, there are quite often young people finding their way, like give them some space,
[01:10:54.520 -> 01:10:55.520] give them some opportunity.
[01:10:55.520 -> 01:11:00.520] But, you know, I actually like, I feel it was a positive conversation.
[01:11:00.520 -> 01:11:05.700] Like I don't want people to see the shots of him crying or hear him crying and that
[01:11:05.700 -> 01:11:09.280] very honest admission about, you know, wanting to buy a gun to take his own life.
[01:11:09.280 -> 01:11:14.300] You know, that, that feels like in many ways a different person was, was, was making those
[01:11:14.300 -> 01:11:18.040] decisions and actually the tears are not tears of sadness.
[01:11:18.040 -> 01:11:21.960] They're almost tears of relief that he's managed to break free of that.
[01:11:21.960 -> 01:11:28.500] He's found real like serenity, man. He's exploring it. There's a there is a freedom now to him
[01:11:28.500 -> 01:11:33.640] Yeah, you know we use that phrase himself is taking the mask off. So we're not seeing some
[01:11:34.320 -> 01:11:37.720] Confected image that he's trying to sell to the media or to advertisers
[01:11:37.720 -> 01:11:43.160] He's saying this is me and I can't control whether you like me or whether you don't account control if you've got an opinion
[01:11:43.760 -> 01:11:50.240] Of me that's positive or negative, but I can just be myself. And I think the more of us find that
[01:11:50.240 -> 01:11:57.520] freedom to do that, to live a life without masks, the more powerful and more vulnerable we become.
[01:11:57.520 -> 01:12:00.880] And as he said himself, vulnerability equates to power.
[01:12:00.880 -> 01:12:05.120] And they roll off the tongue, the names of the young sports people
[01:12:05.120 -> 01:12:06.400] who are in the position that he was in,
[01:12:06.400 -> 01:12:09.680] who we're now criticizing and questioning
[01:12:09.680 -> 01:12:12.680] and, you know, testing to their limits.
[01:12:12.680 -> 01:12:14.440] I would just challenge everyone listening to this
[01:12:14.440 -> 01:12:15.640] to change the way they think,
[01:12:15.640 -> 01:12:16.640] change the way they operate,
[01:12:16.640 -> 01:12:17.720] change the things they buy,
[01:12:17.720 -> 01:12:19.440] change the platforms they serve,
[01:12:19.440 -> 01:12:22.680] and just try and bring a positivity to your life,
[01:12:22.680 -> 01:12:24.480] which brings a positivity to their life,
[01:12:24.480 -> 01:12:29.680] which brings a positivity to society as a whole. Yeah, it's a tight old cliche to
[01:12:29.680 -> 01:12:35.560] sort of sit here and go, it's like, to use like just an abstract phrase like, it's
[01:12:35.560 -> 01:12:40.840] the media. What does that mean? Because, like, and how do I affect it? Well, the
[01:12:40.840 -> 01:12:45.120] answer is, well, I can't even define it in terms that I can
[01:12:45.120 -> 01:12:50.560] grasp. So I think it's about the decisions that we make and how we choose to, like you
[01:12:50.560 -> 01:12:56.600] say, rush to judgment, rush to give an opinion on somebody and start to see that, well, in
[01:12:56.600 -> 01:13:02.560] that case, we become the media if that's what we're choosing to do as well. So just take
[01:13:02.560 -> 01:13:06.080] a pause, take a breath, and maybe try and imagine,
[01:13:06.080 -> 01:13:08.560] I would do the same if I was living your life.
[01:13:08.560 -> 01:13:10.160] And you know that old phrase,
[01:13:10.160 -> 01:13:13.200] you know, about small minds talk about people.
[01:13:13.200 -> 01:13:15.240] Like, I've tried to check myself on this
[01:13:15.240 -> 01:13:16.480] quite a lot recently.
[01:13:16.480 -> 01:13:18.000] You know, before you talk about someone,
[01:13:18.000 -> 01:13:19.280] well, is it truthful?
[01:13:19.280 -> 01:13:20.560] Like, do you know absolutely the thing
[01:13:20.560 -> 01:13:22.480] you're about to tell me about that person is the truth?
[01:13:22.480 -> 01:13:23.320] Right?
[01:13:23.320 -> 01:13:26.960] The second caveat, is it helpful for them for you to tell me this?
[01:13:26.960 -> 01:13:28.840] If not, there's no, what's the point?
[01:13:28.840 -> 01:13:29.840] Final one.
[01:13:29.840 -> 01:13:30.840] Is it helpful for me?
[01:13:30.840 -> 01:13:33.000] So if it's helpful for me and them and it's totally true, great.
[01:13:33.000 -> 01:13:36.880] But if it doesn't meet those three criteria, don't share it.
[01:13:36.880 -> 01:13:37.880] Just walk on by.
[01:13:37.880 -> 01:13:38.880] I love that.
[01:13:38.880 -> 01:13:42.840] And if there's anyone there listening to this, that go, that really resonates with me, that
[01:13:42.840 -> 01:13:44.360] I'd like to know more about that.
[01:13:44.360 -> 01:13:47.040] Do you remember when we spoke with Mo Gowdat around this
[01:13:47.040 -> 01:13:49.480] and he had almost had his checklist in his head
[01:13:49.480 -> 01:13:52.000] that was those three questions that said,
[01:13:52.000 -> 01:13:54.560] once you start getting into the habit of asking them,
[01:13:54.560 -> 01:13:58.000] you suddenly give yourself access to a world of happiness
[01:13:58.000 -> 01:14:01.160] that maybe felt beyond us.
[01:14:01.160 -> 01:14:02.160] Yeah, you're absolutely right.
[01:14:02.160 -> 01:14:04.440] And Mo was spot on as usual.
[01:14:04.440 -> 01:14:05.280] Thanks a lot, mate.
[01:14:05.280 -> 01:14:06.280] Thank you, Jake.
[01:14:06.280 -> 01:14:11.800] All right, let's meet another high performer, shall we? Because Sam Thomas reached out to
[01:14:11.800 -> 01:14:15.480] us on high performance to tell us not only is he an avid listener of the podcast, he
[01:14:15.480 -> 01:14:19.400] read the book, he came to the live show. We love people like this, don't we, Damien?
[01:14:19.400 -> 01:14:23.080] Yeah, we do. Thank you for coming, Sam. And thanks for being a guest today.
[01:14:23.080 -> 01:14:26.640] It's awesome to be on here. As I say, I'm a massive fan.
[01:14:26.640 -> 01:14:30.000] So this is a bit of a bit of a dream come true for me today. I'm not going to lie.
[01:14:30.000 -> 01:14:30.640] Oh, thank you.
[01:14:30.640 -> 01:14:35.840] Amazing. Well, let me just explain to people then at home how the podcast has helped to change your
[01:14:35.840 -> 01:14:39.280] life. We don't ever say that we've done it because the work is all yours, buddy. It was already
[01:14:39.280 -> 01:14:45.400] within. We just helped to unlock it. You've got involved as a trustee for a local children's charity and
[01:14:45.400 -> 01:14:51.480] also launched your own podcast as well. So tell us how high performance impacted you.
[01:14:51.480 -> 01:14:56.240] Yeah, sure. I think for me, during lockdown, so I've had a couple of businesses and one
[01:14:56.240 -> 01:15:02.080] obviously was an events based company that obviously I had to stop during lockdown, couldn't
[01:15:02.080 -> 01:15:04.800] do anything, sport, sport would event. So that was a...
[01:15:04.800 -> 01:15:06.240] How scary was that, Sam?
[01:15:06.240 -> 01:15:10.880] Running a business as you do can be really tough at times. So during that period,
[01:15:12.160 -> 01:15:17.600] it was based around football and pool and golf. So we networked through sport and then,
[01:15:17.600 -> 01:15:22.160] yeah, it hits you hard. You sort of like, actually every aspect of income had to stop.
[01:15:22.160 -> 01:15:25.680] So you look at it and you try and pivot and you look at different ways.
[01:15:25.680 -> 01:15:29.200] But so for me, income for the business completely stopped.
[01:15:29.200 -> 01:15:31.520] Then I looked at why I could do that.
[01:15:31.520 -> 01:15:34.720] I launched a FIFA league, which was quite cool.
[01:15:34.720 -> 01:15:36.760] But for me, I think that in regards
[01:15:36.760 -> 01:15:38.620] to the high performance side of things,
[01:15:38.620 -> 01:15:40.000] I've never listened to a podcast before.
[01:15:40.000 -> 01:15:41.480] And a friend of mine had sent me a link to it,
[01:15:41.480 -> 01:15:43.460] said you should listen to this.
[01:15:43.460 -> 01:15:50.400] And it went on my daily runs most mornings and I listened to the Rio Ferdinand one was the first one and
[01:15:50.400 -> 01:15:54.680] I was hooked from then. And it just sort of, as I say, it's sort of just the impact of
[01:15:54.680 -> 01:15:59.060] listening to the different stories, then Stephen Bartlett and all entrepreneurs just listen
[01:15:59.060 -> 01:16:03.040] to stuff that's sort of actually the struggle and stuff that I've gone through as an entrepreneur
[01:16:03.040 -> 01:16:08.080] and a business owner just really hit home for me. So it's absolutely amazing really and it's
[01:16:08.080 -> 01:16:11.120] like just the lessons that you learn that knowing that there's so many people
[01:16:11.120 -> 01:16:15.680] that these high performers, these high people that are doing well and
[01:16:15.680 -> 01:16:18.640] success and what that looks like but we all go through that struggle and that
[01:16:18.640 -> 01:16:22.160] process and I think and I was certainly in that at the time so it really really
[01:16:22.160 -> 01:16:29.280] did help me. And what was the biggest lesson that you learned that you could directly apply to your world?
[01:16:29.280 -> 01:16:34.240] I think certainly I was always someone that was chasing something, so you sort of like,
[01:16:35.360 -> 01:16:40.240] I think Stephen Barling mentioned in his one about that euphoria moment, like, you know,
[01:16:40.240 -> 01:16:48.960] he promised himself that this, you know, get to that point where you become a multi-millionaire. And he mentions that that was a bit of an anti-climax for me. Certainly,
[01:16:48.960 -> 01:16:52.080] I was always chasing, I'm going to get there. I'm going to get there. And people would say to me,
[01:16:52.080 -> 01:16:56.560] how are you getting on, Sam? Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. And what actually
[01:16:56.560 -> 01:17:01.600] happened then for me, you go, actually, what am I chasing? It's actually trying, enjoying the
[01:17:01.600 -> 01:17:07.980] process and the journey and even those struggles that you when you are in that's part of that journey and that's what you've got
[01:17:07.980 -> 01:17:13.180] to try and enjoy. So can I ask you about your own podcast then Sam? I'm interested in
[01:17:13.180 -> 01:17:18.420] what the what the premise of it is but more importantly can you give Jake and
[01:17:18.420 -> 01:17:23.880] me any tips on how to get the best out of guests? Mine is all about just talking
[01:17:23.880 -> 01:17:26.480] to locals. I run a company called County Business Clubs
[01:17:26.480 -> 01:17:31.280] and we launch the podcast all about sharing company stories on a local level. So I'm based
[01:17:31.280 -> 01:17:35.360] in Brighton in Sussex. So I talk to local entrepreneurs and business owners about their
[01:17:35.360 -> 01:17:40.560] journey. As I said, it was the high performance that inspired me to start mine really just
[01:17:40.560 -> 01:17:45.560] the lessons talking about I've had businesses that I've had to close and
[01:17:45.560 -> 01:17:50.000] failures and stuff and what that looks like to me. And then I'll speak to the business
[01:17:50.000 -> 01:17:55.640] owners about the stuff that I sort of struggle with. So work life balance is something I
[01:17:55.640 -> 01:18:00.920] struggle with. I've got a young family as I sort of mentioned. So we've got that running
[01:18:00.920 -> 01:18:09.260] a couple of different businesses. So the entrepreneurs that come on and they talk about their journey to success, failure, culture. They're the main things I sort of
[01:18:09.260 -> 01:18:14.740] cover on a sort of local level. And it's been great because I've spoken to people from Kevin
[01:18:14.740 -> 01:18:19.700] Byrne who sold Checker Trade for 90 million. But again, back to that thing, the thing I
[01:18:19.700 -> 01:18:23.900] learned from that was that same with him, it was that anti-climax moment. He got to
[01:18:23.900 -> 01:18:25.120] the thing where he sold a
[01:18:25.120 -> 01:18:31.120] company worth a hundred million nearly. And yet he still, what he talked about was the passion of
[01:18:31.120 -> 01:18:35.520] running the business. He wishes to add what he had after selling the business. There's that slight
[01:18:35.520 -> 01:18:40.240] anticlimax. And I think that was certainly for me, something that, you know, and I just love
[01:18:40.240 -> 01:18:44.800] having the conversation with people. I love having that and the learnings that I can get from the,
[01:18:44.800 -> 01:18:46.120] from different entrepreneurs.
[01:18:46.120 -> 01:18:49.120] So I don't know what advice I can give you guys,
[01:18:49.120 -> 01:18:51.880] but certainly I'm learning lots of news.
[01:18:51.880 -> 01:18:54.240] Just in regards to just,
[01:18:54.240 -> 01:18:56.280] my belief is everyone's got a story to tell
[01:18:56.280 -> 01:18:58.240] and whether they're just starting out
[01:18:58.240 -> 01:19:00.840] on a business journey or like you say,
[01:19:00.840 -> 01:19:02.760] they've sold a hundred million pound business.
[01:19:02.760 -> 01:19:05.560] We all suffer some ups and downs,
[01:19:05.560 -> 01:19:07.480] success, failures, imposter syndrome,
[01:19:07.480 -> 01:19:08.880] all those things in between.
[01:19:09.960 -> 01:19:11.920] Listen, there is no yet, right?
[01:19:11.920 -> 01:19:14.440] As a certain Matthew McConaughey came on the podcast
[01:19:14.440 -> 01:19:16.000] and said, and I love the fact that you've realized
[01:19:16.000 -> 01:19:19.280] that people who are searching for the destination
[01:19:19.280 -> 01:19:20.840] are the ones who are effectively delaying
[01:19:20.840 -> 01:19:21.680] their own happiness.
[01:19:21.680 -> 01:19:23.480] And you've realized that it's about the journey.
[01:19:23.480 -> 01:19:26.280] It's about learning every single day, growing,
[01:19:26.280 -> 01:19:28.920] and realizing that I think that there isn't going to be
[01:19:28.920 -> 01:19:30.680] a moment where suddenly all the stress leaves
[01:19:30.680 -> 01:19:31.960] and all the happiness arrives.
[01:19:31.960 -> 01:19:34.760] You know, it's a constant progress.
[01:19:34.760 -> 01:19:37.240] And I love the things you've had to say.
[01:19:37.240 -> 01:19:38.440] So thank you so much, man.
[01:19:38.440 -> 01:19:39.760] Listen, genuinely, thanks.
[01:19:39.760 -> 01:19:40.600] Thanks so much, Gents.
[01:19:40.600 -> 01:19:43.240] It's honestly, it's a real privilege to be on
[01:19:43.240 -> 01:19:44.560] and I can't thank you enough.
[01:19:44.560 -> 01:19:49.200] It's been everything I've learned from the podcast, the book and everything has been epic. So
[01:19:49.200 -> 01:19:51.200] yeah, truly honoured and grateful.
[01:19:51.200 -> 01:19:57.560] And that's it. As always, huge thanks goes to you for growing and sharing this podcast
[01:19:57.560 -> 01:20:02.200] among your community. A huge, huge thanks to Danny for coming on and talking in the
[01:20:02.200 -> 01:20:07.340] way he did. I have huge respect for him, for what he's done, and also for what I know he's going
[01:20:07.340 -> 01:20:08.920] to do in the future.
[01:20:08.920 -> 01:20:10.960] Please continue to spread what you're learning from this series.
[01:20:10.960 -> 01:20:15.920] I love all the feedback, I love the messages, I love the conversation, and please keep it
[01:20:15.920 -> 01:20:17.560] coming, keep it going, keep spreading it.
[01:20:17.560 -> 01:20:18.560] People need to hear this stuff.
[01:20:18.560 -> 01:20:20.080] This can change lives.
[01:20:20.080 -> 01:20:21.400] This can change the world we live in.
[01:20:21.400 -> 01:20:23.640] There's so much negativity about.
[01:20:23.640 -> 01:20:25.520] Send this to someone now and give them an injection
[01:20:25.520 -> 01:20:28.160] of positivity and understanding and growth.
[01:20:28.160 -> 01:20:30.480] Thanks to Finn and Hannah, to Will, Eve, Gemma,
[01:20:30.480 -> 01:20:32.700] Callum, the whole team on the podcast.
[01:20:32.700 -> 01:20:35.140] Remember, there is no secret.
[01:20:35.140 -> 01:20:36.480] It is all there for you.
[01:20:36.480 -> 01:20:38.200] So chase world-class basics.
[01:20:38.200 -> 01:20:40.400] Don't get high on your own supply.
[01:20:40.400 -> 01:20:43.560] Remain humble, curious, empathetic,
[01:20:43.560 -> 01:20:46.540] and we'll see you soon. ♪
[01:21:00.850 -> 01:21:02.910] you