E151 - Emma Sinclair: Why generosity pays so well

This is the fourth episode in our CEO Series, in which we will be deep diving into what it takes to be a CEO.

Emma Sinclair is the CEO of EnterpriseAlumni and was the youngest person to IPO on the London Stock Exchange aged 29. She was a regular contributor to The Telegraph, UNICEF’s first Business Mentor and has been awarded an MBE for her Services to Entrepreneurship. In this episode Emma shares how she was constantly finding ways into finance and entrepreneurship, from putting her student loan into the stock market to consistently working harder than she needed to. They discuss leadership, persistence and what she looks for from new hires. They also discuss how her father encouraged her to think differently from a young age; like when they used to play ‘find the best share price’ game in the car everyday to and from school.

Emma also discusses the hidden costs of her work: health, family, holidays and self-care. But, Emma is proud to have an extended family of people who arrived in the U.K under difficult circumstances, she encourages everyone to take the leap and offer help when and where you can.

Thank you to PwC for sponsoring this special CEO Series. PwC’s purpose is to build trust and solve important problems, and their global strategy - The New Equation - is bringing this to life for their clients, people and society. By combining technology with human ingenuity, passion and experience, PwC works with organisations to deliver more intelligent, sustained outcomes.

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### Summary of the Podcast Episode Transcript:

The podcast episode features Emma Sinclair, the CEO of EnterpriseAlumni and the youngest person to IPO on the London Stock Exchange at the age of 29. Emma shares her journey as an entrepreneur, her experiences, and her insights on leadership, persistence, and the hidden costs of her work.

**Key Points:**

- **Entrepreneurialism:** Emma defines entrepreneurialism as creating a lot from a little, which doesn't necessarily mean building a business that people talk about or is listed on the stock exchange.

- **Nurturing Intelligence:** Emma's father played a crucial role in nurturing her intelligence and interest in business. They engaged in activities like reading share prices in the newspaper and discussing business news, which demystified the world of business for Emma.

- **Risk-Taking:** Emma acknowledges the risks associated with entrepreneurship, but she emphasizes the importance of considering the potential rewards and the worst-case scenario. She encourages individuals to think carefully about the risks and rewards before starting a business.

- **Entrepreneurial Mindset:** Emma believes that entrepreneurialism is not limited to starting a business. It can be applied in various roles, including sales, philanthropy, and community initiatives. She stresses the importance of creating a lot from a little and making the most of available resources.

- **Importance of Experience:** Emma emphasizes the value of gaining experience by working with others before starting a business. She believes that working in different roles and industries provides valuable insights and skills that can be applied to entrepreneurial ventures.

- **Hidden Costs of Success:** Emma acknowledges the hidden costs of her success, such as the impact on her health, family, holidays, and self-care. Despite these challenges, she expresses pride in the extended family she has created through her work and encourages others to offer help and support to those in need.

**Overall Message:**

Emma Sinclair's journey as an entrepreneur highlights the importance of persistence, risk-taking, and the ability to create a lot from a little. She emphasizes the value of gaining experience before starting a business and acknowledges the hidden costs of success. Emma's story inspires individuals to embrace entrepreneurialism, take calculated risks, and make a positive impact on the world.

# Episode Overview

In this episode of the CEO Series podcast, Emma Sinclair, the CEO of EnterpriseAlumni and the youngest person to IPO on the London Stock Exchange at age 29, shares her insights on leadership, persistence, and the importance of networking. She emphasizes the value of gaining experience in various jobs at a young age and discusses the hidden costs of her work, including the impact on her health, family, and personal life. Sinclair also highlights the importance of kindness, respect, and empathy as non-negotiables in her personal and professional life and reflects on her biggest strength (persistence) and weakness (pet videos on Instagram). She concludes the interview by recommending two books by Anne Rand, "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugs," which have been influential in her life.

# Key Insights

1. **Importance of Diverse Work Experience:** Sinclair emphasizes the significance of gaining experience in various jobs at a young age, as it teaches essential life lessons, such as teamwork, communication, and adaptability. She encourages listeners to embrace different roles, even if they may not be their ideal choices, as these experiences contribute to personal and professional growth.

2. **Hidden Costs of Success:** Sinclair acknowledges the hidden costs associated with her success, including the impact on her health, family time, holidays, and self-care. She emphasizes the importance of prioritizing personal well-being and finding a balance between work and personal life.

3. **Non-Negotiable Values:** Sinclair identifies kindness, respect, and empathy as non-negotiable values in her personal and professional life. She believes that these values are essential for building strong relationships and creating a positive work environment.

4. **Biggest Strength and Weakness:** Sinclair reflects on her biggest strength, persistence, which has been instrumental in her success. However, she also acknowledges her weakness for pet videos on Instagram, which she admits can be a distraction.

5. **Biggest Failure and Reaction:** Sinclair recalls her biggest failure as not speaking up more in her younger years, due to shyness. She encourages listeners to be more confident in their decisions and to communicate their ideas and concerns more assertively.

6. **Recommended Reading:** Sinclair recommends two books by Anne Rand, "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugs," which have had a significant impact on her life. She highlights the themes of creation and selfishness in these books, which resonate with her entrepreneurial journey.

In this episode, Emma Sinclair, CEO of EnterpriseAlumni and the youngest person to IPO on the London Stock Exchange at age 29, shares her insights on leadership, persistence, and what she looks for in new hires. Sinclair emphasizes the importance of constantly seeking opportunities in finance and entrepreneurship, working harder than necessary, and maintaining a persistent attitude while remaining adaptable to change.

Sinclair discusses how her father encouraged her to think differently from a young age, playing games like "find the best share price" on their daily commute. She also highlights the hidden costs of her work, including the impact on her health, family, holidays, and self-care. Despite these challenges, Sinclair expresses pride in her extended family of people who have arrived in the UK under difficult circumstances and encourages others to offer help when and where they can.

The podcast also explores the importance of building relationships and staying connected with others, as highlighted in the book "The Alliance" by Reid Hoffman and Chris Yeh. Sinclair emphasizes the value of persistence, tempered with the ability to recognize when a change in direction is necessary. She encourages young people to ask questions and seek guidance from entrepreneurs, business leaders, and sportspeople, who are often willing to share their experiences and insights.

Overall, this episode provides valuable insights from Emma Sinclair on leadership, persistence, and the importance of human connections in achieving success in business and life.

[00:00.000 -> 00:07.360] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to our high performance CEO special, the latest
[00:07.360 -> 00:13.040] conversation where we talk to one of the top CEOs in the UK and we hear from them totally
[00:13.040 -> 00:19.000] disarmed, completely vulnerable and brutally honest about what it's really like running
[00:19.000 -> 00:21.680] some of the most successful businesses in Europe.
[00:21.680 -> 00:25.120] Remember, this podcast reminds you that it's within your ambition,
[00:25.120 -> 00:30.100] your purpose, your story. We just help to unlock it by turning the lived experiences
[00:30.100 -> 00:35.480] of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. So right now, myself and Professor
[00:35.480 -> 00:41.480] Damien Hughes are about to speak to one of the leading business people on the planet.
[00:41.480 -> 00:43.360] And here is what you can expect.
[00:43.360 -> 00:47.600] The first year that student loans came out was the year I went to uni and set me out for
[00:47.600 -> 00:50.400] if the student loans company are listening to this I'm really sorry and
[00:51.600 -> 00:55.360] teenagers please don't do this but I lied that I was buying books and I took it out to trade.
[00:56.000 -> 01:01.360] Entrepreneurialism really I think is creating a lot from a little and that doesn't necessarily
[01:01.360 -> 01:08.560] have to mean I think that you're building a business that people want to talk to you about or that's listed on the stock exchange.
[01:08.560 -> 01:13.440] I will always say, though, it is very important and good to get good experience elsewhere
[01:13.440 -> 01:14.520] with other people.
[01:14.520 -> 01:16.680] No one likes being told what to do.
[01:16.680 -> 01:22.240] No one wants to spend 10 hours slogging in a shop sometimes or whatever else it is that
[01:22.240 -> 01:23.240] starts you off in life.
[01:23.240 -> 01:27.120] But, you know, I often say, and I actually have a lot of friends who worked at
[01:27.120 -> 01:29.840] McDonald's too, who would say it was like, it was like a mini MBA in a great life
[01:29.840 -> 01:33.560] school. If we're going to work together closely, first of all, I'm a strong
[01:33.560 -> 01:36.840] personality. You better have a strong personality or this is not going to work
[01:36.840 -> 01:40.080] so well. But also I want someone that's going to teach me something or push back
[01:40.080 -> 01:43.680] occasionally, not just for the sake of it, but because that's how it should be.
[01:44.240 -> 01:46.280] All right. So we're about to speak to Emma Sinclair, you know, at the sake of it, but because that's how it should be. Toby Rice All right, so we're about to speak to Emma
[01:46.280 -> 01:51.160] Sinclair. You know, at the age of 29, she became the youngest person in the UK to take
[01:51.160 -> 01:57.080] a company public. She, like me, worked at McDonald's. Unlike me, she didn't get fired
[01:57.080 -> 02:01.600] from McDonald's. But what I love about this conversation is that Emma is going to break
[02:01.600 -> 02:05.740] down for you, not just what she's done, but why she's done
[02:05.740 -> 02:11.300] it and how she's got there. Emma has this amazing energy. She has this real desire to
[02:11.300 -> 02:16.280] enact change and this belief that it's not a belief that one person can change the world,
[02:16.280 -> 02:20.220] but actually the way that she operates, I think is proof that one person can change
[02:20.220 -> 02:23.840] the world. One person can change the way that we think. One person can change the way that
[02:23.840 -> 02:26.780] we act. One person can change the way that we think. One person can change the way that we act. One person can change the way that we move forwards.
[02:26.780 -> 02:31.400] And if there's only one person whose life gets changed by this episode of the
[02:31.400 -> 02:35.680] High Performance Podcast, then we've done our job. But what I would love you to do
[02:35.680 -> 02:40.880] is to pass this on. There are people everywhere looking for inspiration,
[02:40.880 -> 02:46.540] looking for help, looking for guidance. And Emma is a woman who can
[02:46.540 -> 02:51.860] offer so much to so many. I'm so excited for you to hear this episode of the High Performance
[02:51.860 -> 02:58.540] Podcast. Can I just say, it wouldn't be possible without the brilliant collaboration of PWC.
[02:58.540 -> 03:03.660] They often set the bar for leadership, culture, inclusion, and the future of work. Their purpose
[03:03.660 -> 03:06.480] is to build trust and solve important problems,
[03:06.480 -> 03:08.360] which is exactly what we're trying to do
[03:08.360 -> 03:09.880] here on the High Performance Podcast.
[03:09.880 -> 03:11.400] I also love their global strategy,
[03:11.400 -> 03:13.420] which they've called the new equation,
[03:13.420 -> 03:16.960] which is bringing their ideas and their philosophy to life
[03:16.960 -> 03:20.740] for their clients, for people, but most of all for society.
[03:20.740 -> 03:24.200] Because we know that you can combine technology
[03:24.200 -> 03:26.040] with human ingenuity, passion and
[03:26.040 -> 03:30.960] experience and therefore you can work with organisations to deliver more intelligent,
[03:30.960 -> 03:35.440] sustained outcomes. And that's exactly what PWC are doing. But let's get straight to it
[03:35.440 -> 03:39.440] because this is one of the most enjoyable conversations we've had on the High Performance
[03:39.440 -> 03:50.960] Podcast. You're going to love it. I know you are. So let's get straight to it. This is the latest episode of the High Performance Podcast CEO Specials with the amazing Emma
[03:50.960 -> 03:59.280] Sinclair. Enjoy. So Emma, would you please start by telling us your definition of high
[03:59.280 -> 04:00.280] performance?
[04:00.280 -> 04:07.480] Emma Sinclair Oh, start off on a on a tricky one. For me, I think probably high performance is consistency and
[04:07.480 -> 04:13.280] persistency, and that consistence and persistence doing what it's supposed to do.
[04:13.280 -> 04:18.640] Very nice. Well, let's talk about your consistency and also your persistence. And when I think
[04:18.640 -> 04:23.840] about this interview, I kept on coming back to someone that took a path that most people
[04:23.840 -> 04:25.880] don't. But not only that,
[04:25.880 -> 04:29.560] you seem so keen to tell other people about the path that you took and the fact that you
[04:29.560 -> 04:35.100] are keen to open up the world of entrepreneurship to so many people, which I think is fantastic.
[04:35.100 -> 04:39.560] But I want to really go straight there. We'll talk about your own experiences in a moment,
[04:39.560 -> 04:43.840] but how do you, after all your years of hard work and graft and achievements, how do you
[04:43.840 -> 04:45.600] think we can inspire
[04:45.600 -> 04:49.520] the next generation who are at school right now being taught in the same way that we probably
[04:49.520 -> 04:56.800] all were 20 or 30 years ago? How can we inspire them to understand the power of entrepreneurship?
[04:56.800 -> 05:02.160] I guess storytelling is always the best way to reach and communicate, which is of course partly
[05:02.160 -> 05:06.360] what this is. And to provide some context on my journey
[05:06.360 -> 05:08.920] and the things that I've done and the path that I've taken
[05:08.920 -> 05:10.560] and anything that anyone might read.
[05:10.560 -> 05:12.640] I mean, it all starts with small steps.
[05:12.640 -> 05:15.140] I didn't have an extraordinary education.
[05:15.140 -> 05:18.300] I wasn't an extraordinary child per se,
[05:18.300 -> 05:20.780] but there were things I did when I was younger with my dad.
[05:20.780 -> 05:23.200] There were things that I really found interesting
[05:23.200 -> 05:28.180] that led me on the journey that have gotten me to running Enterprise Alumni now.
[05:28.180 -> 05:32.420] And I think we forget, right, so teachers are in charge of teaching you at school and
[05:32.420 -> 05:36.340] your French lessons and your history homework and whatever else that might be.
[05:36.340 -> 05:41.700] It's extremely onerous to expect teachers in schools to also teach people to be great
[05:41.700 -> 05:44.220] entrepreneurs or fantastic doctors.
[05:44.220 -> 05:45.760] I mean, there's only so much that
[05:45.760 -> 05:53.280] a school teacher can do. So, for my part, I had, my father took me to school every day from the age
[05:53.280 -> 05:59.280] of 3, 3, 4, all the way through to the age of 18. And we did things on the way to school, which when
[05:59.280 -> 06:03.520] I look back, were a stepping stone to me understanding stock markets, were a stepping
[06:03.520 -> 06:05.000] stone to me wanting to go into business. So, rwy'n credu, o ran y gofynnaeth,
[06:05.000 -> 06:08.000] mae'n ymddangos ar gyfer y bobl arbennig
[06:08.000 -> 06:12.000] a ddim yn dechrau gyda phobl sy'n deall yr ymddygiad o ddynion,
[06:12.000 -> 06:14.000] ond yn fy mhobl cas,
[06:14.000 -> 06:15.000] mae'n ymddangos i fynd ymlaen ymlaen.
[06:15.000 -> 06:17.000] Felly un o'n cwestiynau pwysicaf
[06:17.000 -> 06:19.000] rydyn ni'n hoffi'n gofyn i'r gwestiynau,
[06:19.000 -> 06:21.000] yw'r cwestiwn sy'n gweithredu
[06:21.000 -> 06:24.000] ar y peth a gynnal y psychologau plant, Howard Gardner,
[06:24.000 -> 06:29.320] a oedd yn dweud, yn hytrach na'n gofyn, guest Emma is, that is a variation on the question that the child psychologist Howard Gardner asked. He says rather than ask how clever are you,
[06:29.320 -> 06:33.800] we should ask instead, how are you clever? I absolutely love that, I hadn't heard
[06:33.800 -> 06:37.600] that before. It's probably quite a lot to put on a child or a young person because
[06:37.600 -> 06:41.680] you don't necessarily know and I remember my parents' friends saying
[06:41.680 -> 06:53.040] things to me about my personality which I never really understood at that time. I was a mortally shy child. I avoided drama, public speaking, anything of that ilk. So,
[06:53.040 -> 06:57.520] I was not the kid that tried to get out of games or getting in the cold swimming pool. I was quite
[06:57.520 -> 07:01.680] well behaved. To suggest that I stand up in front of anybody, and it was absolutely mortifying. So,
[07:01.680 -> 07:07.400] probably if you'd asked me at that time, I have struggled a bit. So maybe the other question is
[07:07.400 -> 07:11.120] actually not to ask young people that or kids that bit, it's to ask the people that
[07:11.120 -> 07:15.160] know them the best, which I find is the way now when I see other people and
[07:15.160 -> 07:18.380] their children I'm like I can see what you could become or I can see what
[07:18.380 -> 07:22.980] you're really good at. So how would you answer it for you then? So what, so tell
[07:22.980 -> 07:28.360] us a little bit about what your father was doing and what kind of intelligence that was nurturing in you?
[07:28.360 -> 07:32.320] Yeah I don't know whether it was intelligence necessarily but my dad to
[07:32.320 -> 07:36.560] this day still says that we, he and I, but that we are a family of door knockers,
[07:36.560 -> 07:41.880] knock on doors and create opportunities. So the thing that I did with my dad is
[07:41.880 -> 07:49.360] that every day on the way to school we used to read share prices in the FT. And that is not because my father was a stockbroker in finance,
[07:49.360 -> 07:55.360] which he wasn't. And it wasn't because we had tons of cash in stocks and shares, but he used to buy
[07:56.000 -> 08:01.200] a little slither of the shares that were sold in privatizations in the 80s and 90s.
[08:01.200 -> 08:09.440] And so in the morning, I guess, after we'd done, what's the times table and how many red cars can you see? And what's the capital city and any other games anyone can think
[08:09.440 -> 08:14.400] of to keep a small shop busy in the back of a car? He really did stretch it out and it went
[08:14.400 -> 08:19.520] into guess the share price. So every morning on the way to school, it just became a habit that I
[08:19.520 -> 08:23.760] would, obviously the newspaper was far bigger than me when I first started this, but it would be,
[08:24.480 -> 08:26.360] you know, go and find the share price.
[08:26.360 -> 08:27.960] I still remember what the stocks were.
[08:27.960 -> 08:30.400] They don't exist anymore as companies.
[08:30.400 -> 08:32.000] So, I used to go do that.
[08:32.000 -> 08:36.640] So, I think all that was at the time was my dad and I playing a game and me fighting with
[08:36.640 -> 08:37.800] the newspaper to open it.
[08:37.800 -> 08:38.800] That's how it started.
[08:38.800 -> 08:43.600] But then I think if I look back, it just made, and of course, you can't do this with all
[08:43.600 -> 08:48.060] children, but it made the stock market something utterly accessible and not an ivory tower.
[08:48.060 -> 08:52.440] We then over time, we used to talk about other parts of the newspaper because first we do
[08:52.440 -> 08:56.200] the share price for anyone that's familiar with looking at a share price in a newspaper
[08:56.200 -> 08:58.140] and not just on your iPhone.
[08:58.140 -> 09:01.460] There's other information that's listed in the back of the FT or whatever newspaper you're
[09:01.460 -> 09:07.960] looking at, the market cap, the price earnings ratio, and we would do that and we would spot that, what's the market cap.
[09:07.960 -> 09:12.980] And then, as I grew a little bit older and I could read a bit better and could understand
[09:12.980 -> 09:19.520] a bit better, on the back page of the FT was the lex column, which we used to say was like
[09:19.520 -> 09:22.840] the kind of news and views, but in the world of business.
[09:22.840 -> 09:28.120] So we would read the back of that and it would be like an announcement that a company was making a disposal or there
[09:28.120 -> 09:32.520] was an acquisition or a new CEO of the FTSE 100. So I guess it's not dissimilar
[09:32.520 -> 09:36.960] to reading a magazine and looking at the gossip column. So in many ways, first of
[09:36.960 -> 09:40.000] all, that just completely demystified the world of business or anything else
[09:40.000 -> 09:44.940] because it was just like what my dad and I did. And incidentally, it took a really
[09:44.940 -> 09:47.880] long time in life for me to understand that that's just not what people do
[09:47.880 -> 09:50.920] because later in life I would tell people we did this and they'd be like oh
[09:50.920 -> 09:53.760] that's so cool they would be like why are you trading stock at university with
[09:53.760 -> 09:57.320] your student loan? I think it took a while for me to realize not
[09:57.320 -> 10:00.520] everybody plays and learns the stock market as a small child.
[10:00.520 -> 10:09.960] Was context being explained as well then? So apart from the numbers and the intrigue of is the market up or down, did you and your father debate the
[10:09.960 -> 10:15.640] context of why that might be the case or what could affect it? Yeah I mean you
[10:15.640 -> 10:18.680] know I'd know when there was something bad, some bad news and things went down
[10:18.680 -> 10:21.720] and when there was good news things went up and over time so we're talking like
[10:21.720 -> 10:26.000] four to eighteen, over time there was was, of course, a really long
[10:26.000 -> 10:32.080] journey of starting to correlate news and things that we might have read or knew were going on in
[10:32.080 -> 10:36.800] the world with why things were a bit tricky. So by the time I got to 18, obviously, it's
[10:36.800 -> 10:41.840] quite a long journey. You can understand that if times are tricky or if there's a recessionary
[10:41.840 -> 10:46.080] environment, then probably restaurants and retail are going to be suffering a little bit.
[10:46.080 -> 10:50.200] So I mean, it wasn't the only thing we did as regards business, but it was just absolutely
[10:50.200 -> 10:55.040] every single day thing that set me up for the first year that student loans came out
[10:55.040 -> 10:58.960] was the year I went to uni and set me out for, if the student loans company are listening
[10:58.960 -> 11:00.160] to this, I'm really sorry.
[11:00.160 -> 11:02.640] And teenagers, please don't do this.
[11:02.640 -> 11:05.360] But I lied that I was buying books and I took it out to trade.
[11:05.360 -> 11:08.160] Let's talk about that then. Do you remember the moment that you thought hold on
[11:08.720 -> 11:13.680] I'm being given money to go to uni like I can do something even more with that money than
[11:13.680 -> 11:16.960] buy the books I need and also were you worried you wouldn't then have the books that you need
[11:16.960 -> 11:22.480] or how did that work? When I look back there are so many things because I was a well-behaved child
[11:22.480 -> 11:29.480] right I was not the child that that smoked around the corner of the school or like bunked school. I was a bit naughty
[11:29.480 -> 11:33.320] but no one ever caught me. First of all, I remember it being slid under my door
[11:33.320 -> 11:36.760] that I think was £1,500 or something in the interest rate and me
[11:36.760 -> 11:41.440] thinking, that sounds good. I also remember in the same week, so freshers
[11:41.440 -> 11:46.880] week of Leeds University, that I had a pot of birthday money in Barclays
[11:46.880 -> 11:51.080] that was in my parents' name, Carol of Emerson Clare, which is what parents can do for a
[11:51.080 -> 11:56.000] bank account. And of course, I was quite young for my year. I was always a year younger than
[11:56.000 -> 12:01.260] everyone and I just turned 18. And so I went in to deal with my Barclays current account
[12:01.260 -> 12:05.760] and get my £25 overdraft or whatever it was that seemed really helpful
[12:05.760 -> 12:06.760] at the time.
[12:06.760 -> 12:13.120] And I remember thinking, well, I know that I've got this, I think it was about £2,200
[12:13.120 -> 12:16.120] sitting in a bank account that's not mine, but it is mine.
[12:16.120 -> 12:19.160] And I asked behind the counter something about my bank account.
[12:19.160 -> 12:21.920] I said, another branch, would I be able to move it here too?
[12:21.920 -> 12:31.760] And they were like, well, if you're over 18 and you've got your passport, you're sure. So, not only did I get my student loan, but also I got that pot of
[12:31.760 -> 12:36.880] cash, which actually, seeing as we're talking about younger years and thinking about how you
[12:36.880 -> 12:42.480] can inspire people, I will just tell you, that pot came about with my grandparents or my mum's a twin.
[12:42.480 -> 12:45.760] So, I get all the gifts from my mum's twin.
[12:49.360 -> 12:49.840] You know, 10 quid for my birthday, 20 quid for my birthday, but my grandpa,
[12:54.480 -> 12:59.760] purportedly when I was five, said to me, if you bring me your pocket money, I'll double it and I'll put it in the local building society. So my grandma's 98 and she's still alive,
[12:59.760 -> 13:04.880] she still remembers this. My grandpa sadly passed away, but he always used to say to me,
[13:04.880 -> 13:08.480] like over the years, well, many years later, he used to say to me that I used
[13:08.480 -> 13:13.560] to, he used to think I'd rock up with 5p or you know 25p and I'd brought and
[13:13.560 -> 13:17.240] they moved down to Brighton and I used to rock up with, I'd you know, collected
[13:17.240 -> 13:22.760] every penny and 2p I'd found around the house and I would save absolutely
[13:22.760 -> 13:25.480] everything and I wouldn't put it in my piggy bank at home.
[13:25.480 -> 13:29.600] I would bring it all to my grandpa. So sometimes I would rock up with like ten
[13:29.600 -> 13:33.480] pounds, which when you're little and also this is some time ago, was a bit of a
[13:33.480 -> 13:37.320] shock for my grandpa. So that pot grew a little bit faster than I think everyone
[13:37.320 -> 13:42.320] thought because my Bradford and Bringley pot that was my grandpa's, he had to
[13:42.320 -> 13:45.520] honour it. So until I was 18, I used to rock out with cash.
[13:45.520 -> 13:47.040] So let me just jump in there then, Emma,
[13:47.040 -> 13:50.520] and ask you, like, because we've got young children
[13:50.520 -> 13:53.520] ourselves and getting them to save for a rainy day
[13:53.520 -> 13:54.780] isn't always so easy.
[13:54.780 -> 13:58.840] So what was your mindset that gave you that fortitude
[13:58.840 -> 14:01.160] to want to save rather than spend?
[14:01.160 -> 14:04.700] I really am a big believer at any age in incentivization.
[14:04.700 -> 14:06.240] And obviously there's a tipping point, right?
[14:06.240 -> 14:09.600] When you're six, any incentivization probably doesn't work
[14:09.600 -> 14:13.580] if you can have sweets, exactly, or chocolate
[14:13.580 -> 14:16.080] or just something that sparkles or whatever else it is.
[14:16.080 -> 14:17.240] I get that.
[14:17.240 -> 14:19.940] And my dad always used to sort of effectively tie in
[14:19.940 -> 14:21.160] working hard with rewards.
[14:21.160 -> 14:24.040] I mean, my first job was in McDonald's
[14:24.040 -> 14:26.040] and when I eventually went on to get my first proper job
[14:26.040 -> 14:26.860] in investment banking,
[14:26.860 -> 14:29.120] I remember the board member for the investment bank
[14:29.120 -> 14:31.240] I eventually joined saying they'd never had someone apply
[14:31.240 -> 14:33.680] for mergers and acquisitions who'd worked in McDonald's,
[14:33.680 -> 14:34.800] which I found astounding.
[14:34.800 -> 14:36.600] But my dad had said to me,
[14:36.600 -> 14:39.760] if you want a car when you're 18, I'll match,
[14:39.760 -> 14:42.140] just so we're clear, it was a fairly crappy fifth hand one,
[14:42.140 -> 14:44.960] but I'll match whatever you make.
[14:44.960 -> 14:45.040] And I was 16 when he told me this and no one would hire me. So we're clear it was a fairly crappy fifth-hand one, but I'll match whatever you make.
[14:45.040 -> 14:48.400] And I was 16 when he told me this, and no one would hire me.
[14:48.400 -> 14:54.080] So I went on a rampage to find a Saturday job, and the only place that would take 16-year-olds
[14:54.080 -> 14:55.080] was McDonald's.
[14:55.080 -> 14:59.080] So I think I've always had in my life that my dad created something out of nothing.
[14:59.080 -> 15:04.080] He lost his dad very young, has had success in his latter years as an entrepreneur.
[15:04.080 -> 15:05.120] And we were just
[15:10.160 -> 15:14.880] always taught to knock on doors, to ask and to work hard, which didn't correlate to savings, but I think it correlated to creating money and understanding that if you can create a little
[15:14.880 -> 15:19.840] pot of something and make it grow, that that is exciting. So I think maybe that sort of
[15:19.840 -> 15:23.760] watching something grow is exciting, like with kids and seeds, right? If you watch the flowers
[15:23.760 -> 15:25.400] grow, then actually they'll leave it,
[15:25.400 -> 15:26.240] they won't pull them out,
[15:26.240 -> 15:27.800] they wanna see them bloom.
[15:27.800 -> 15:30.880] Are you familiar with the Walter Mitchell marshmallow test
[15:30.880 -> 15:32.720] from back in the 70s,
[15:32.720 -> 15:35.200] where when children were put in a room
[15:35.200 -> 15:37.520] and they were presented with a marshmallow
[15:37.520 -> 15:38.360] and they were told,
[15:38.360 -> 15:41.280] if you can not taste that marshmallow
[15:41.280 -> 15:42.880] for the next 10 minutes,
[15:42.880 -> 15:45.680] in 10 minutes time, you'll get a second marshmallow. And then they just studied the kids doing it and some of the kids couldn't resist the temptation y marshmallow ar ystod y 10 munud nesaf, yna bydd gennych y marshmallow ar ystod y 10 munud nesaf.
[15:49.120 -> 15:53.440] Ac yna ddysguodd y plant yn ei wneud, ac rhai o'r plant allan ddim yn ymdrech ar y temptad a'n rhaid i'w gwedi'r marshmallow sydd ar y ffwrdd o'r rhai oedd yna. Yr hyn
[15:53.440 -> 15:59.840] a ddod o hyd iddo gyda'r plant sydd wedi gallu hyfforddi'r moment a meddwl y byddwn i'n
[15:59.840 -> 16:08.100] gael dwy o'r pethau hyn yn y 10 munud nesaf, roedd yn teimlo'n cyffredin iawn minutes time I'm gonna get two of these things. They tended to be high performers in lots of other aspects of their life because that deferred
[16:08.100 -> 16:14.200] gratification was seen as somebody able to imagine a future without necessarily
[16:14.200 -> 16:18.200] being distracted by the present. I mean if I say that in two parts, self-discipline
[16:18.200 -> 16:22.920] is obviously really important. I am massively self-disciplined in some areas
[16:22.920 -> 16:25.640] of my life. If today you offered me the
[16:25.640 -> 16:28.920] marshmallow test, I've got to be honest, I think I'd fail. I'd be like, I just want a
[16:28.920 -> 16:33.820] marshmallow. But if you asked me to just keep going and keep going about
[16:33.820 -> 16:38.480] something to do with winning a piece of business or, you know, some of the
[16:38.480 -> 16:41.100] elements of my business are short-term and some of them are long-term, right? If
[16:41.100 -> 16:44.240] you want to, you know, if I think about what the end of my business might be,
[16:44.240 -> 16:47.260] that's a very long-term and big goal. And I am working every
[16:47.260 -> 16:51.200] single day for years and years for that. So I think there's areas of life of self discipline.
[16:51.200 -> 16:54.840] I can believe that. I probably would have thought if I think about it now, I probably
[16:54.840 -> 16:57.720] would have thought I really want that. I'll take it and then I'll find another one somewhere
[16:57.720 -> 17:01.540] else or I'll negotiate getting the second one anyway. That would probably have been
[17:01.540 -> 17:02.540] quite me.
[17:02.540 -> 17:05.960] There's also an element of risk taking here as well. You know, when you take your student loan
[17:05.960 -> 17:07.240] and you put it in stocks and shares,
[17:07.240 -> 17:08.640] they can go down as well as up
[17:08.640 -> 17:12.440] and you could have been left at uni with no money
[17:12.440 -> 17:13.680] and in a bit of trouble.
[17:13.680 -> 17:15.440] So would you talk to us please
[17:15.440 -> 17:17.640] about your relationship with risk?
[17:17.640 -> 17:19.640] Because entrepreneurship is a risk
[17:19.640 -> 17:22.280] and I want people to really hear from you
[17:22.280 -> 17:30.320] how they can balance that risk in their own minds. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a bit romanticised. So I could romanticise the answer, right? I didn't
[17:30.320 -> 17:34.640] really think about the downside risk necessarily. And I suspect much like every time I've taken a
[17:34.640 -> 17:38.960] risk in my life, I've thought, what's the worst that can happen? When I left my first very proper
[17:38.960 -> 17:43.560] job to start my very first business, I remember thinking the worst that could happen is I could
[17:43.560 -> 17:49.040] have some debt, my ego would be bruised, and I'd have to go get a job in a third-rate place, whereas I was in a
[17:49.040 -> 17:53.760] top-tier place with a job of my dreams, so to speak. I'm not sure that I can apply that
[17:53.760 -> 17:58.640] romanticism back to when I was taking out my student loans. It was huge amounts of money for
[17:58.640 -> 18:02.160] me, but I guess the worst would have been I would have lost it and I knew that I had to pay it back
[18:02.160 -> 18:07.840] when I started working. I think you had to be earning 25 grand in order for that to trigger to have to pay back. And at
[18:07.840 -> 18:12.880] that point, I was 18 with a part-time job and being someone who earned 25 grand a year seemed
[18:12.880 -> 18:19.600] far off. So it seemed like free money in many ways. I think though to apply it maybe more to now
[18:20.240 -> 18:26.120] and that risk-taking, you know, I go through different phases of communicating how I feel about entrepreneurship,
[18:26.120 -> 18:30.160] and it's directly tied to how I'm feeling as an entrepreneur.
[18:30.160 -> 18:33.080] In really tough times, my feelings
[18:33.080 -> 18:36.120] might be slightly different to when we're on a roll,
[18:36.120 -> 18:39.320] or I can see where we're going more clearly.
[18:39.320 -> 18:41.440] I will say that the older I get,
[18:41.440 -> 18:43.640] the more when someone says they want to start a business,
[18:43.640 -> 18:48.240] I don't quite say, don't do it, but if it's someone I know really well, with a slight sense of humor,
[18:48.240 -> 18:53.360] where we can sort of just have a very quick sense, I'll be like, have a really good think about that.
[18:53.360 -> 18:58.000] I used to say, it was a little bit like building an extension on your house, you think it's going
[18:58.000 -> 19:02.880] to be 10 grand and will take six months and actually 25 grand later and two and a half years
[19:02.880 -> 19:05.440] later, you're quite tired,
[19:05.440 -> 19:08.640] you're a bit ratty, it hasn't gone exactly as planned and it was a lot more expensive and you
[19:08.640 -> 19:14.560] needed more money. It would be my kind of really quick and dirty way of explaining it to everybody.
[19:16.000 -> 19:20.960] There's lots of things that sound fabulous and fun and we're having a great chat about some stuff I
[19:20.960 -> 19:24.720] did when I was younger and I can tell you about my business with more passion than anyone because
[19:24.720 -> 19:26.660] it's how I honestly feel. But on the flip side, I could also tell you that there are did when I was younger and I can tell you about my business with more passion than anyone because it's how I honestly feel.
[19:26.660 -> 19:28.680] But on the flip side, I could also tell you
[19:28.680 -> 19:31.320] that there are times when I'm absolutely exhausted.
[19:31.320 -> 19:33.260] I'm a person that likes to reply to everything
[19:33.260 -> 19:34.900] and I became a person that couldn't reply
[19:34.900 -> 19:35.740] to all of my emails.
[19:35.740 -> 19:37.860] It was a real moment for me where I was like,
[19:37.860 -> 19:39.540] I am not that person.
[19:39.540 -> 19:41.540] I have no choice but to be.
[19:41.540 -> 19:44.640] If you have big ambitions for scale,
[19:47.520 -> 19:54.000] and I think that comes with time experience and maturity, it is so much. There are lots of ways to be entrepreneurial and not
[19:54.000 -> 19:59.360] necessarily start your own business. So I think entrepreneurialism is a kind of broad, I was
[19:59.360 -> 20:04.160] gonna say broad church, but broad synagogue, seeing as I'm Jewish, and it's not just setting
[20:04.160 -> 20:08.880] up shop and it's certainly not all glamour and it's not I'm the boss and you know I..
[20:08.880 -> 20:14.000] Tell us more about that then, so what is it so define entrepreneurialism for
[20:14.000 -> 20:19.600] somebody that is interested in pursuing that mindset rather than necessarily
[20:19.600 -> 20:24.600] going after their own business. Sure well I mean you know there are startups, there
[20:24.600 -> 20:25.440] are scale-ups, there are you know, there are startups, there are scale-ups,
[20:25.440 -> 20:29.560] there are large enterprises, there are mammoth, massive beasts like some of the ones behind
[20:29.560 -> 20:33.720] me. You know, there are lots of different places where you can go and work or earn a
[20:33.720 -> 20:40.120] living or be a very meaningful part of what you are doing day to day that requires entrepreneurial
[20:40.120 -> 20:44.400] skills. You know, if you are in a sales team, picking up and making a hundred phone calls
[20:44.400 -> 20:50.480] a week to people you don't know, or reaching out to strangers is entrepreneurial. I've got people that I have in
[20:50.480 -> 20:54.720] my company who I'd say are particularly entrepreneurial. They don't have their own
[20:54.720 -> 20:58.400] business, they're in mine. They've got stock, they've got a vested interest, but they're really
[20:58.400 -> 21:03.280] entrepreneurial people. So I think you can be entrepreneurial in your role at work, in your
[21:03.280 -> 21:05.040] home life, or in your side gigs, you can be entrepreneurial in your role at work, in your home life, or in your side
[21:05.040 -> 21:09.440] gigs, you can be entrepreneurial. You know, there are so many people who do side initiatives,
[21:09.440 -> 21:14.160] whether they're philanthropic, or helping a community, or funding the local playground
[21:14.160 -> 21:17.840] that needs to be fixed. And you've got to think about how to do that when you've only got 100
[21:17.840 -> 21:23.040] quid and no one that can give you money. Entrepreneurialism really, I think,
[21:23.040 -> 21:25.480] is creating a lot from a little, and that
[21:25.480 -> 21:29.960] doesn't necessarily have to mean, I think, that you're building a business that people
[21:29.960 -> 21:32.240] want to talk to you about or that's listed on the stock exchange.
[21:32.240 -> 21:34.760] Jason Vale So when you talk about entrepreneurialism
[21:34.760 -> 21:38.500] and people are listening to this, and we get a lot of young listeners, and sometimes they
[21:38.500 -> 21:44.400] even message us saying, I'm not sure if I'm an entrepreneur or not. How would you answer
[21:44.400 -> 21:48.240] that question? Because I actually struggle to give them an answer.
[21:48.240 -> 21:51.360] But who are we and who are you to tell them what they are, I guess,
[21:51.360 -> 21:53.200] in the nicest possible way, right?
[21:53.200 -> 21:55.600] I often say this to people that have got their own limitations,
[21:55.600 -> 21:57.000] and I'm like, who knows?
[21:57.000 -> 21:59.120] All of us have got a little bit of entrepreneur in us.
[21:59.120 -> 22:00.840] All of us have got a little bit of our mums in us,
[22:00.840 -> 22:02.360] even if we think our mums are a bit annoying.
[22:02.360 -> 22:05.200] All of us have got a little bit of
[22:05.200 -> 22:11.200] everything in us, right? Our roots, our history, what we're exposed to. So, if we are all 100
[22:11.200 -> 22:16.160] pieces, everyone's got a little bit of entrepreneur in them. Probably some people have either got a
[22:16.160 -> 22:20.960] bit more than others or have a bit more tendency towards or pushed a bit more towards the other.
[22:20.960 -> 22:25.300] You know, sometimes it's about life opportunity. I mean, you interview a lot of people
[22:25.300 -> 22:26.820] and you talk to a lot of people.
[22:26.820 -> 22:29.740] It's really easy to kind of paraphrase and squish down
[22:29.740 -> 22:32.940] 10, 20, 30, 40 years of your life and tell a story.
[22:32.940 -> 22:34.340] And there's certainly patterns in that.
[22:34.340 -> 22:35.500] And I definitely can do that.
[22:35.500 -> 22:37.460] And I'm very much me and I've become
[22:37.460 -> 22:39.220] very much more a version of me over time.
[22:39.220 -> 22:41.900] So if I look back at the old me, I now, I get it.
[22:41.900 -> 22:45.360] I get a lot of things, but I was encouraged by my dad.
[22:45.360 -> 22:51.280] I've been allowed to do things by investors. I have been celebrated by friends for having a go
[22:51.280 -> 22:55.760] at building a business. I think we're all also different things at different points in our life.
[22:55.760 -> 22:59.200] I can take more risk now. I can take more personal risk now. I've got more personal
[22:59.200 -> 23:04.800] capital and I can go out and get help. I can raise money easier. So, I think to anyone that
[23:04.800 -> 23:05.920] is thinking that
[23:05.920 -> 23:07.640] or asking you that or wondering that,
[23:07.640 -> 23:09.280] we're all a little bit of everything.
[23:09.280 -> 23:13.000] And who knows, but it'd be really exciting to find out.
[23:13.000 -> 23:15.260] And I will always say though,
[23:15.260 -> 23:18.280] it is very important and good to get good experience
[23:18.280 -> 23:19.600] elsewhere with other people.
[23:19.600 -> 23:21.800] No one likes being told what to do.
[23:21.800 -> 23:25.880] No one wants to spend 10 hours slogging in a shop
[23:25.880 -> 23:28.880] sometimes or whatever else it is that starts you off in life. But you know I
[23:28.880 -> 23:32.920] often say and I actually have a lot of friends who works at McDonald's too who
[23:32.920 -> 23:35.960] would say it was like it was like a mini MBA in a great life school. You know I
[23:35.960 -> 23:40.920] worked long days, I did all jobs from cleaning the toilets to making the
[23:40.920 -> 23:48.360] burgers but washing my hands in between don't worry, you know to the tills And yes, ultimately, when I got on the tills, it became clear that's where you
[23:48.360 -> 23:52.920] should put me because I was a natural upseller and I'm naturally competitive. So I was like,
[23:52.920 -> 23:57.720] you get a badge for like, if you sell 100 pounds an hour or 200 pounds an hour or 300
[23:57.720 -> 24:01.200] pounds an hour, you get like a patch, a bit like brownies or guides to say, well done
[24:01.200 -> 24:05.380] basically. So I was like, right, I want five stars and I
[24:05.380 -> 24:08.960] want my patches. So, you know, I was able to see myself through that, but that
[24:08.960 -> 24:12.380] taught me to turn up on time. I had to report to other people. I had to work in
[24:12.380 -> 24:15.900] a team with people that I might not have loved or liked or necessarily got on
[24:15.900 -> 24:20.260] with. So I guess my, and I say this, you know, my friends have got
[24:20.260 -> 24:23.520] relatively young kids now, they're not teenagers, but for people I know that
[24:23.520 -> 24:27.840] got older kids and even people with means or where you want your children to study or
[24:27.840 -> 24:31.600] you don't want them to be distracted, just working for somebody that doesn't owe you
[24:31.600 -> 24:35.360] anything where they're just going to judge you by your performance is just such important
[24:35.360 -> 24:38.360] life lessons. I always had a job from 16, always.
[24:38.360 -> 24:43.680] I had a similar experience, Emma, but I never made it to the tills and I got fired from
[24:43.680 -> 24:44.680] McDonald's for a lack of...
[24:44.680 -> 24:45.520] Did you? I had a, they, they, I did an appraisal I got fired from McDonald's for a lack of skills.
[24:45.520 -> 24:46.520] Did you?
[24:46.520 -> 24:50.200] I did an appraisal, they said you've got a lack of communication skills and I lost my
[24:50.200 -> 24:51.200] job and I spent all day cooking chips.
[24:51.200 -> 24:54.880] Let's send them this Jake, let's send them this about communication skills.
[24:54.880 -> 24:56.720] I mean, I'm like, hello.
[24:56.720 -> 25:00.280] We all remember, they wouldn't give me a job, but a slightly different reason.
[25:00.280 -> 25:04.120] I'd just done my GCSEs and I put my grades on.
[25:04.120 -> 25:06.060] So this is the day of hard copy
[25:06.060 -> 25:09.540] application forms. And just to be clear, I have many weaknesses and failings, got very
[25:09.540 -> 25:14.060] good memory, got good results. So I remember going in and with my being so proud of all
[25:14.060 -> 25:18.740] my A's. And I remember Andy, the manager at Brent Cross, he was like, I think you're overqualified.
[25:18.740 -> 25:23.100] I don't think this is the right place for you. And I remember begging for a job. So
[25:23.100 -> 25:25.600] they didn't get it right, Jake, but
[25:27.600 -> 25:31.360] we'll get you on the McDonald's alumni network at that point. But again, you know, it was, it was hard for me, but not bad for me, which is exactly what
[25:31.360 -> 25:35.040] you're saying about, you know, doing all these jobs at a young age. And I just want you to talk
[25:35.040 -> 25:40.480] to us for a moment about not being in a rush. Again, we get so much feedback from people saying
[25:40.480 -> 25:48.880] I don't know if I can help with that. I think, well, I'm certain that you can, because people, particularly in the modern world with social media, where
[25:48.880 -> 25:53.280] it looks like everyone's successful and everyone's perfect and having a great time, we feel like,
[25:53.280 -> 25:59.520] oh, why am I not already there? How important is it, if at all, for us to realise that this
[25:59.520 -> 26:02.920] is about a journey and you do have to have those moments along the way where you feel
[26:02.920 -> 26:07.040] like you're not going forwards and the growth is almost happening underground, if you like.
[26:07.040 -> 26:09.840] Heather Fellowes I feel so sorry for people watching from
[26:09.840 -> 26:14.240] afar. And what I'd like to tell all those people is I do it too. If anyone thinks I'm wandering
[26:14.240 -> 26:19.920] around like, oh, big time entrepreneur, isn't that exciting? I'm killing it. That is just not
[26:19.920 -> 26:24.480] how I feel a lot of the time. It doesn't mean I feel like an abject failure. And I have got a
[26:24.480 -> 26:25.720] sense of self. But it really is a journey, you an abject failure and I have got a sense of self,
[26:25.720 -> 26:27.600] but it really is a journey, you know?
[26:27.600 -> 26:29.120] And it's that whole thing of,
[26:29.120 -> 26:30.120] Jane, when I was younger,
[26:30.120 -> 26:32.360] I was never much of a magazine reader per se,
[26:32.360 -> 26:33.560] but you used to read magazines.
[26:33.560 -> 26:35.400] It'd be in your 20s, you'd feel this,
[26:35.400 -> 26:36.720] in your 30s, you'd feel this,
[26:36.720 -> 26:38.040] in your 40s, you'd feel this,
[26:38.040 -> 26:40.040] in your 70s, you're a total piece with yourself.
[26:40.040 -> 26:42.160] And I used to be like, oh, what does that even mean?
[26:42.160 -> 26:44.640] And as I go by, maybe as the decades pass
[26:44.640 -> 26:47.580] or as my experience expands, I totally
[26:47.580 -> 26:50.320] realize about what life experience does.
[26:50.640 -> 26:51.500] I'm saying it right here.
[26:51.500 -> 26:55.260] I'm not starting another business after I eventually either exit or
[26:55.260 -> 26:56.400] whatever happens with this business.
[26:56.400 -> 26:57.480] I I'm not doing it again.
[26:57.480 -> 27:00.300] I'm going to watch daytime telly and drink Rose for breakfast.
[27:00.300 -> 27:04.280] I'm very tired of doing this for a very long time, but you know, if I was to do
[27:04.280 -> 27:06.240] it again, each time I do do this,
[27:06.240 -> 27:10.400] what I acquire and experience has just made such a difference,
[27:10.400 -> 27:13.360] if only to my stress levels, because now my rule is,
[27:13.360 -> 27:15.960] unless someone has died, everything is fine, which is true.
[27:15.960 -> 27:18.680] So I've had every single possible problem
[27:18.680 -> 27:20.600] that's conceivable in a business.
[27:20.600 -> 27:23.440] So I think it's good to be ambitious,
[27:23.440 -> 27:26.240] and it's good to be aggressive in the right ways.
[27:26.240 -> 27:32.640] I was, I wanted everything fastest, you know, in every job I did, I always worked harder than I
[27:32.640 -> 27:37.040] needed to because I really wanted to, it was my natural way, but I wanted to be noticed,
[27:37.040 -> 27:41.040] I wanted to be promoted, I wanted to have exposure to all of the right people.
[27:41.680 -> 27:45.760] But equally, for people listening who don't, that doesn't resonate with,
[27:45.760 -> 27:50.240] we're not all like that. Some people don't want that. I mean, I've got friends, family,
[27:50.880 -> 27:55.040] stepchildren where maybe they have different life goals about how they want to move through the
[27:55.040 -> 28:01.360] world and not everybody does want to build an empire or race or work five extra shifts a week
[28:01.360 -> 28:05.560] for the extra cash. We should all go through life and work out a little bit
[28:05.560 -> 28:08.600] of what our rhythm is and what serves us best
[28:08.600 -> 28:09.960] if we're able to, I think.
[28:09.960 -> 28:12.920] That's another life lesson, which is we're all different
[28:12.920 -> 28:14.560] and we should celebrate that.
[28:14.560 -> 28:16.000] Well, that difference is something
[28:16.000 -> 28:17.240] that I'd like to touch on Emma,
[28:17.240 -> 28:21.200] because your company's all about networking and connecting
[28:21.200 -> 28:24.320] and valuing that difference in others.
[28:24.320 -> 28:25.640] Now, we do have some
[28:25.640 -> 28:29.480] listeners that would sometimes believe that, you know, working collaboratively
[28:29.480 -> 28:34.240] almost does slow you down or means that you become part of the herd rather than
[28:34.240 -> 28:39.720] standing out. So, how do you work collaboratively with other people while
[28:39.720 -> 28:43.520] still going after your own goals and your ambitions and achieving success?
[28:43.520 -> 28:48.040] Well, I think that's such a great thing to raise so that everybody hears it really
[28:48.040 -> 28:52.480] clearly. So yes my day job is we power alumni network so actually we do that
[28:52.480 -> 28:57.320] scale when companies need to at scale stay connected to people it's impossible
[28:57.320 -> 29:00.120] to do it with a phone call or a spreadsheet or a whatsapp like you and I
[29:00.120 -> 29:06.480] might do. I think in fact I know everything in my life has come from
[29:06.480 -> 29:10.960] connections. It doesn't mean you have to always work at a team or if you're busy
[29:10.960 -> 29:15.200] sometimes I get stuff done myself rightly or wrongly but connections are
[29:15.200 -> 29:18.360] not just at work, they're everywhere in life and if you
[29:18.360 -> 29:22.640] think when you're at school or you're at university or you're on a bus or you're
[29:22.640 -> 29:25.200] on a train backpacking through, I don't know,
[29:25.200 -> 29:28.240] somewhere on your summer holidays. You never know where people are going in life.
[29:28.240 -> 29:31.020] And it's not just about, oh, I should stay in touch with that person because I'm not
[29:31.020 -> 29:36.520] sure what they're going to become. But I personally find some people fascinating.
[29:36.520 -> 29:39.960] And I have got friends that are entrepreneurs, and I've got friends that I grew up with.
[29:39.960 -> 29:44.800] I've got friends that I am here. It's an ongoing joke in the company. Sometimes I'll be in,
[29:44.800 -> 29:46.280] like, there's someone we need to
[29:46.280 -> 29:51.080] hire. One of my colleagues will always say, Have you just been on a bus talking to somebody and you met someone great? And
[29:51.080 -> 29:57.400] I'll be like, Yes. Or Joe and the Juice, we recently hired the most wonderful young person who used to hold court at Joe and
[29:57.400 -> 30:03.040] the Juice and upsell me every single time. I'm like, What are you doing there? Please come and work for us. So I think, you
[30:03.040 -> 30:05.880] know, that concept of just like who you meet and staying in touch
[30:05.880 -> 30:08.200] is the greatest life lesson I can offer anyone,
[30:08.200 -> 30:10.900] not just for professional success, but personal success.
[30:10.900 -> 30:14.100] I feel like, and it's taken a lifetime to get here,
[30:14.100 -> 30:16.300] but I feel like if there's almost anything
[30:16.300 -> 30:20.300] that I need to do, philanthropic, professional,
[30:20.300 -> 30:22.860] I need to help somebody who's, you know,
[30:22.860 -> 30:24.980] I have a lot of refugees and asylum seekers
[30:24.980 -> 30:25.880] that live in my home.
[30:25.880 -> 30:34.160] I need to find someone, a school bag, a job, a sponsor, a mentor, shoes, anything.
[30:34.160 -> 30:36.160] Over time now, I've just got people all over the place.
[30:36.160 -> 30:40.280] It is my joy and pleasure to know that generally if I ask for something, and it's generally
[30:40.280 -> 30:43.640] not for me as well, people are so lovely and delighted to help.
[30:43.640 -> 30:46.360] And those are people that I've met everywhere
[30:46.360 -> 30:47.480] in the strangest of places.
[30:47.480 -> 30:50.240] I mean, if I gave you an example of the last, you know,
[30:50.240 -> 30:52.360] three people I met super randomly
[30:52.360 -> 30:56.040] that are now sort of very firm parts of my life,
[30:56.040 -> 30:59.520] it sounds crazy, but it's the most wonderful joy.
[30:59.520 -> 31:01.640] It's just that wonderful, rich tapestry of people
[31:01.640 -> 31:04.080] that I know, and I would encourage people
[31:04.080 -> 31:07.440] to think about that. A phrase we often use on this podcast is life
[31:08.000 -> 31:14.080] is a team sport. And I'd love you to share with us how you get to this place. What are the questions
[31:14.080 -> 31:17.920] you ask people? How do you react when someone walks into a room and comes over and speaks to
[31:17.920 -> 31:23.280] you so that they feel that they're comfortable coming to a successful entrepreneur and being
[31:23.280 -> 31:25.280] open and being vulnerable.
[31:25.280 -> 31:30.960] How do we start helping people to actually gain the skills to be open to make connections,
[31:30.960 -> 31:32.200] which allows everyone to grow?
[31:32.200 -> 31:40.000] Okay, three parts, life as a team sport, people approaching me, and I guess, how do you communicate
[31:40.000 -> 31:41.000] that in a room?
[31:41.000 -> 31:42.000] Yeah, yeah.
[31:42.000 -> 31:45.760] Fortunately, this, this conversation we're having doesn't allow for anyone else
[31:45.760 -> 31:52.200] in my family or friends to input in my answers, because it's an ongoing joke sometimes that
[31:52.200 -> 31:55.940] team sports aren't my finest if they're mental team sports. Crystal May's challenge that
[31:55.940 -> 32:00.460] we did recently as a group, I can't concentrate and do maths in my head if people are shouting
[32:00.460 -> 32:07.280] questions at me. So it was mooted that I wasn't great at that a couple of weeks ago.
[32:04.880 -> 32:08.880] I took note, but it is right, everything
[32:07.280 -> 32:10.320] is, whether it's a business,
[32:08.880 -> 32:11.680] whether it's your personal life, whether
[32:10.320 -> 32:14.000] it's building a home,
[32:11.680 -> 32:15.120] I think the skill is bringing people
[32:14.000 -> 32:16.560] with you.
[32:15.120 -> 32:18.080] It's getting people to be able to come
[32:16.560 -> 32:20.800] with you on a journey.
[32:18.080 -> 32:22.960] I recently launched something in the UK
[32:20.800 -> 32:25.040] to help refugees find jobs
[32:22.960 -> 32:25.160] and it started as a small initiative I
[32:25.160 -> 32:28.400] thought the government would take over and it turned into something where I
[32:28.400 -> 32:32.200] partnered along with a lot of very large companies to work with a very large
[32:32.200 -> 32:37.600] charity. That was, that was tens of thousands of people moving all in the
[32:37.600 -> 32:40.520] right direction to make something happen and it started by being able to reach
[32:40.520 -> 32:44.720] out to the people closest to me in the first ten to get them to move with me
[32:44.720 -> 32:48.800] and then the next ten so I guess time, the team sport analogy is absolutely right.
[32:49.440 -> 32:52.800] To the point more about sort of people approaching me or just being in a room,
[32:52.800 -> 32:58.000] I said to you before, I was mortally shy as a child. I don't really love a large room. I'll
[32:58.000 -> 33:04.320] happily walk into a dinner and won't stop talking if people are interesting. I'll happily stand on
[33:04.320 -> 33:06.640] stage and do as required
[33:06.640 -> 33:09.080] because it's talking about something in my comfort zone.
[33:09.080 -> 33:11.000] I never liked, and I don't always,
[33:11.000 -> 33:13.280] especially like large rooms and small talk.
[33:13.280 -> 33:16.000] I've learned, but for the purposes of other people
[33:16.000 -> 33:17.640] listening in and thinking about that,
[33:17.640 -> 33:20.320] I'm always like it's about getting yourself noticed
[33:20.320 -> 33:21.640] because that is what in hindsight,
[33:21.640 -> 33:24.240] and then very proactively when I learned it, I did.
[33:24.240 -> 33:28.560] If you're the first person to put a hand up and ask a question in a room at an event,
[33:28.560 -> 33:33.920] a conference, a dinner, whatever it might be, the person receiving your question is going to
[33:33.920 -> 33:39.680] hear you and remember you. I always do a pay it forward for the first person to ask me a question
[33:39.680 -> 33:43.680] in a room. That is just my rule of thumb. I can't do everything. I can't do something nice for
[33:43.680 -> 33:46.720] everybody. I'd really like to, so I always try and do that. My pay it forward is for
[33:46.720 -> 33:50.440] the first person to ask me a question. But also there's Twitter and there's LinkedIn
[33:50.440 -> 33:54.920] and not everyone can reply to you. But if you ask a question in a room or on social
[33:54.920 -> 33:59.200] media with other people, what happens is all the other people in a room, even if you're
[33:59.200 -> 34:04.080] not the speaker, hear your question and 5% of them are like, oh, I'm really interested
[34:04.080 -> 34:05.200] now. I want to do that,
[34:05.200 -> 34:07.800] or that's my business, or I want to work in that space.
[34:07.800 -> 34:10.280] So actually, just by putting your hand up in a room,
[34:10.280 -> 34:11.960] whatever that room is,
[34:11.960 -> 34:14.360] you're actually suddenly rallying all those people
[34:14.360 -> 34:16.260] to come and find you proactively.
[34:16.260 -> 34:18.580] So I don't know about the approaching me thing,
[34:18.580 -> 34:21.240] I'm very nice, but there's always lots to do
[34:21.240 -> 34:22.760] and I'm a bit time poor, but I just,
[34:22.760 -> 34:27.560] I find human connections and starting a conversation is never that hard.
[34:27.560 -> 34:29.960] Do it in a lift, do it wherever you are.
[34:29.960 -> 34:34.200] Sometimes I'm on an airplane and I recognize somebody or I'm like, they're wearing swag
[34:34.200 -> 34:36.960] from a company that I'm really interested in.
[34:36.960 -> 34:39.080] And I just start talking to people now.
[34:39.080 -> 34:42.840] And is there a killer question you would ask someone before you make the decision to hire
[34:42.840 -> 34:46.840] them or to make them part of your world or your business?
[34:46.840 -> 34:48.440] Hiring is maybe a slightly different thing.
[34:48.440 -> 34:49.440] Yes.
[34:49.440 -> 34:54.800] I will say that for me, there are two types of hiring, very specific skills that you need
[34:54.800 -> 34:58.220] from someone where you need to be clear that they can do it.
[34:58.220 -> 35:04.040] And then places, positions, jobs where people don't necessarily need to have very prerequisite
[35:04.040 -> 35:06.000] skills, coding,
[35:06.000 -> 35:08.360] you know, maths, whatever it might be.
[35:08.360 -> 35:13.520] So a lot of that is about propensity to learn, possibility and personality, not the three
[35:13.520 -> 35:17.040] P's which you might have concluded, but they just came out that way.
[35:17.040 -> 35:23.280] I am a really big hirer on the first 30 seconds and intuition.
[35:23.280 -> 35:25.920] There are downstairs and I'm in the London office today,
[35:25.920 -> 35:30.080] downstairs in the London office there's a collection of people that I hired myself
[35:30.640 -> 35:36.320] through a medium that could not be planned and probably no one could necessarily subscribe to
[35:36.320 -> 36:03.920] in order for it to happen. I'm always looking at good and for good people. So Joe, Alex from Joe and the Juice is an excellent example. The tenth time I went in, and I saw him, 22, navigating people that were cross, spending £10 on a juice, where is my, he just used to hold this room full of people in Mayfair, which is a very expensive part of London. I was like, if you could keep all these people super calm, and then they end up also buying a cake because you upsell them.
[36:04.080 -> 36:01.760] people super calm and then they end up
[36:06.080 -> 36:04.080] also buying a cake because you upsell them.
[36:07.280 -> 36:06.080] I used to watch and I went
[36:08.320 -> 36:07.280] and spoke to him. We've got someone that
[36:10.480 -> 36:08.320] joined us,
[36:11.360 -> 36:10.480] our first Ukrainian team member in
[36:14.320 -> 36:11.360] London
[36:16.320 -> 36:14.320] who drove to London from Kiev with
[36:18.400 -> 36:16.320] her two children, stopped on the way
[36:20.720 -> 36:18.400] at a fountain in Belgium to stretch her
[36:21.920 -> 36:20.720] legs, started talking to somebody that was
[36:23.520 -> 36:21.920] from London who said
[36:26.160 -> 36:23.520] you should find Emma Sinclair, she's
[36:26.360 -> 36:27.360] working on jobs for Ukrainians and And she reached out to me.
[36:27.360 -> 36:32.160] So she came into the office 24 hours later and I was like, I could see what she was capable
[36:32.160 -> 36:33.160] of.
[36:33.160 -> 36:36.120] I understood her experience and worst case scenario, she could get started here and help
[36:36.120 -> 36:39.320] us and we could help her get on a way to get her next job because it's easier to get one.
[36:39.320 -> 36:43.640] So skills on the one hand, which tends to be something that these days other people
[36:43.640 -> 36:44.640] vet for me.
[36:44.640 -> 36:49.000] And for me, it's culture and personality and ability. And that's slightly an intuitive
[36:49.000 -> 36:55.240] thing. I've hired a lot of my best hires. My assistant right now was my spin teacher
[36:55.240 -> 36:57.040] before COVID. She was, yeah.
[36:57.040 -> 36:59.480] Jason Vale – And what, what's she hired as?
[36:59.480 -> 37:04.960] Lucy Walker – She is my EA. She's now going on to do internal culture and events.
[37:04.960 -> 37:05.440] Jason Vale – But I, that's what I love as well, because you see someone in one role She is my EA. She's now going on to do internal culture and events.
[37:05.440 -> 37:06.680] But that's what I love as well,
[37:06.680 -> 37:08.760] because you see someone in one role,
[37:08.760 -> 37:10.960] and I come from a TV background, Emma,
[37:10.960 -> 37:12.700] and the biggest frustration for me for years
[37:12.700 -> 37:13.880] was when I was on kids' TV
[37:13.880 -> 37:15.680] and I wanted to work in sports broadcasting,
[37:15.680 -> 37:17.080] I would go in for a meeting and they go,
[37:17.080 -> 37:18.680] but you're a kids' presenter.
[37:18.680 -> 37:20.440] And it was a voice in my head screaming,
[37:20.440 -> 37:22.160] I'm not a kids' TV presenter,
[37:22.160 -> 37:25.260] I'm a TV presenter currently employed by kids TV,
[37:25.260 -> 37:27.080] but I wasn't brave enough, bold enough,
[37:27.080 -> 37:28.060] confident enough at the time.
[37:28.060 -> 37:29.720] So I went, yeah, okay.
[37:29.720 -> 37:30.940] And I moved on.
[37:30.940 -> 37:33.420] There's something wonderful about not just hiring people,
[37:33.420 -> 37:34.980] but hiring people from one place.
[37:34.980 -> 37:36.220] I mean, you take a yoga teacher
[37:36.220 -> 37:37.380] and then they're in charge of culture.
[37:37.380 -> 37:39.180] Like that's fantastic.
[37:39.180 -> 37:41.660] And I think that's something that we should talk about.
[37:41.660 -> 37:44.580] Well, you know, Keeley is my equal.
[37:44.580 -> 37:45.840] We just do different things.
[37:45.840 -> 37:47.960] And I met her two ways.
[37:47.960 -> 37:51.700] I met her when she was teaching spin down the road for me,
[37:51.700 -> 37:53.320] but that's not how I met her.
[37:53.320 -> 37:55.640] Someone sent a message out in one of my founder communities,
[37:55.640 -> 37:58.080] about 400 of us, saying,
[37:58.080 -> 37:59.040] name me this person,
[37:59.040 -> 38:00.700] she's helping me a little bit with admin,
[38:00.700 -> 38:05.520] she's looking for something to support someone part-time and I needed
[38:05.520 -> 38:09.660] someone to do some stuff about a thing. So I was like, oh I'll meet her. And I met
[38:09.660 -> 38:14.520] her and she came in and I was having a chat, she was fantastic. And then she said
[38:14.520 -> 38:19.080] something about weekend and working and I was asking her what she did. And I was
[38:19.080 -> 38:22.360] like, oh my god, I knew I recognized you from somewhere because it's pretty dark
[38:22.360 -> 38:25.880] in my spin room. You know. She was just so fabulous and motivating
[38:25.880 -> 38:27.320] and I already knew that.
[38:27.320 -> 38:29.120] And I'd had a great conversation with her
[38:29.120 -> 38:30.200] about what she needed to do.
[38:30.200 -> 38:32.860] So she started off doing something else,
[38:32.860 -> 38:34.400] a little bit sort of enclosed.
[38:34.400 -> 38:37.680] And now she works in my office directly with me.
[38:37.680 -> 38:40.960] But I do think that it possibly takes either an entrepreneur
[38:40.960 -> 38:42.720] or a relatively worldly person
[38:42.720 -> 38:44.820] that's confident in themselves to do that.
[38:44.820 -> 38:50.080] I'm not saying I'm better at hiring, but for example, I'm hiring quite a few people for
[38:50.080 -> 38:54.320] directly for my office right now, and all the job specs and wonderful things have been put together,
[38:54.320 -> 38:58.400] but I always have to add to them. And what I'm usually adding is something to convey
[38:58.400 -> 39:02.640] emotional intelligence. I'm looking for my equal. We have different roles to do, but
[39:02.640 -> 39:06.900] if we're going to work together closely, first of all, I'm a strong personality, you better have a
[39:06.900 -> 39:10.080] strong personality or this is not going to work so well, but also I want someone
[39:10.080 -> 39:12.900] that's going to teach me something or push back occasionally, not just for the
[39:12.900 -> 39:17.520] sake of it, but because that's how it should be. We could go on forever about
[39:17.520 -> 39:20.900] people I found in places who've been some of the most magnificent hires
[39:20.900 -> 39:25.480] because they're great people who are smart and have an ability
[39:25.480 -> 39:30.360] to, you have stature and gravitas. You can feel that when someone walks in a room.
[39:30.360 -> 39:35.720] I think you can anyway. And that leads us then to a challenge that I think you
[39:35.720 -> 39:39.280] offered a lot of people that maybe have a stereotypical view of entrepreneurs
[39:39.280 -> 39:43.600] that you almost have to be selfish or ruthless to be successful in
[39:43.600 -> 39:47.760] business and yet at the heart of what you've just described to us there and y byddwch yn rhaid i chi fod yn ddewis neu'n ddewis i fod yn gynllunio'n gyffrous, ac i gyd, ar y chweithiau o'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i ddysgrifio i ni yno,
[39:47.760 -> 39:51.720] ac yn unigol, y gwaith rydych chi wedi'i wneud gyda'r cymuned ymdrech,
[39:51.720 -> 39:53.200] mae yna ddewis.
[39:53.200 -> 39:55.280] A allech chi ddweud i ni ychydig am
[39:55.280 -> 40:00.280] pam y gall hynny fod yn ddewis anhygoel i'w ddefnyddio?
[40:00.280 -> 40:02.880] Diolch, dyna'n dda iawn i ddweud.
[40:02.880 -> 40:04.400] Mae gen i lawer o ddewisau,
[40:04.400 -> 40:05.600] ac mae ganddo dewis dewis Thank you. That's a nice thing to say. I have many imperfections and there is an element
[40:05.600 -> 40:11.400] of selfishness in anything anyone does if it's very persistent, consistent, and time-consuming.
[40:11.400 -> 40:16.000] And so there's an element of selfishness in running a business. You know, there is, you
[40:16.000 -> 40:19.960] know, collateral damage is probably not the right words, but there are, there are things
[40:19.960 -> 40:23.560] that get put by the wayside, right? I'm very lucky that most of my closest friends I've
[40:23.560 -> 40:28.640] had all my life because I'm not always there. I'm often not there for drinks and everything
[40:28.640 -> 40:33.660] else but I love my friends as much and call me anytime. Look, we all have different personalities.
[40:33.660 -> 40:36.600] I think also we're all motivated by different things and we all have different levels of
[40:36.600 -> 40:43.400] energy so no element of competition or anything of that sort. Some people do things small
[40:43.400 -> 40:45.000] and quietly and some people
[40:45.000 -> 40:48.700] occasionally do things where they're a little bit more reported on or certainly
[40:48.700 -> 40:55.420] more easier to spot. For my part, many many years ago as a result of a story we
[40:55.420 -> 41:00.260] don't have time for, I met a group of women who just started to have asylum
[41:00.260 -> 41:04.660] seekers under 18, so children in their homes, because there was no real way to
[41:04.660 -> 41:05.060] deal with that because they weren't necessarily in the system immediately. asylum seekers under 18, so children in their homes, because there was no real way to deal
[41:05.060 -> 41:09.180] with that because they weren't necessarily in the system immediately.
[41:09.180 -> 41:13.560] And so I used to do that and I used to have, effectively it was always teenagers, mainly
[41:13.560 -> 41:18.260] teenage boys because they were the ones that were either brave enough or the mums and dads
[41:18.260 -> 41:22.460] sent them over first, who would live with me and it started a real journey as regards
[41:22.460 -> 41:23.460] refugees.
[41:23.460 -> 41:25.940] Also, you know
[41:23.920 -> 41:27.640] my family came from Eastern Europe about
[41:25.940 -> 41:30.260] a hundred years ago. My dad side from the
[41:27.640 -> 41:32.120] Ukraine, my mum's side from places where
[41:30.260 -> 41:33.800] borders have moved around a lot and my
[41:32.120 -> 41:35.120] mother's side had a lot more people who
[41:33.800 -> 41:38.320] died in the Holocaust and didn't make
[41:35.120 -> 41:40.320] it. So I come from Eastern European
[41:38.320 -> 41:41.840] stock that got here with nothing and I
[41:40.320 -> 41:43.200] really believe and I talk about my
[41:41.840 -> 41:44.440] already talked about my dad a lot, you
[41:43.200 -> 41:45.880] know my dad really strives for me to
[41:44.440 -> 41:47.640] have the best education that he didn't have, to give me all of the opportunity
[41:47.640 -> 41:52.240] in the world, which I think is quite a refugee mentality, which is, get educated and you'll
[41:52.240 -> 41:53.680] have opportunity.
[41:53.680 -> 41:58.040] That whole joke about people becoming accountants and doctors, because wherever you go effectively
[41:58.040 -> 42:01.300] with mobility, those skills are wanted.
[42:01.300 -> 42:05.000] So for my part, it's been a genuinely a joy and a pleasure.
[42:05.160 -> 42:07.920] I have a lot of semi-adopted kids.
[42:07.920 -> 42:10.320] The last one left home quite a few years ago
[42:10.320 -> 42:13.300] and is currently a hairdresser down the road from my office.
[42:13.300 -> 42:16.120] So occasionally I go and see him for a blow dry
[42:16.120 -> 42:20.000] and it just makes my heart explode to watch him do that.
[42:20.000 -> 42:23.140] His mom and his siblings have recently arrived in the UK.
[42:23.140 -> 42:24.720] It's a journey I took by an accident
[42:24.720 -> 42:26.240] that's been an absolute pleasure.
[42:26.240 -> 42:28.280] And it's led to many things,
[42:28.280 -> 42:31.640] it's led to our connections through PWC,
[42:31.640 -> 42:33.960] who were one of the first five sponsors
[42:33.960 -> 42:35.600] of the Ukrainian initiative
[42:35.600 -> 42:37.280] that I launched a big business consortium
[42:37.280 -> 42:40.200] where we've had large businesses
[42:40.200 -> 42:42.160] from around the UK and around the world,
[42:42.160 -> 42:43.640] partnering with RefuAid
[42:43.640 -> 42:45.280] to help people find jobs
[42:45.280 -> 42:46.640] commensurate with experience.
[42:46.640 -> 42:49.360] And you know, you both asked me about why.
[42:49.360 -> 42:53.360] Imagine being a math professor or a chemist
[42:53.360 -> 42:57.080] or a doctor or a vet, and you land somewhere
[42:57.080 -> 42:59.800] and your years of education and skills
[43:00.960 -> 43:02.600] can't be repurposed here.
[43:02.600 -> 43:03.700] You don't speak the language,
[43:03.700 -> 43:05.040] so you've got an immediate barrier in that regard. And that is the number one barrier forurposed here. You don't speak the language, so you've got an immediate barrier
[43:05.040 -> 43:08.680] in that regard, and that is the number one barrier for people arriving here. But if you
[43:08.680 -> 43:14.600] are a vet, for example, there's a massive backlog due to COVID for taking the vet conversion
[43:14.600 -> 43:20.520] exams to practice here. If you are a dentist, there's a three and a half year waiting list
[43:20.520 -> 43:24.640] in order to take your exams to be able to practice. It's just absolutely horrendous,
[43:24.640 -> 43:27.160] and it infuriates me, A, about those backlogs,
[43:27.160 -> 43:28.000] if I'm honest,
[43:28.000 -> 43:30.600] but B, also, that you get here, you're qualified,
[43:30.600 -> 43:32.320] you were able to support your family,
[43:32.320 -> 43:33.960] and probably the only thing that you can do
[43:33.960 -> 43:36.840] to survive in that instance is go stack shelves.
[43:36.840 -> 43:38.920] And there is nothing wrong with stacking a shelf.
[43:38.920 -> 43:42.760] And Jake and I are clearly fabulous alumni of McDonald's,
[43:42.760 -> 43:43.840] but we had prospects,
[43:43.840 -> 43:49.240] or we knew that it was a part of the journey but I have friends, family who weren't able to get
[43:49.240 -> 43:52.240] out of that and all they were able to do despite being skilled was something that
[43:52.240 -> 43:56.520] wasn't enough for them. So it started as something small that I thought that I
[43:56.520 -> 44:00.480] could contain and get on the front page of the Sunday Times in order to motivate
[44:00.480 -> 44:04.480] people and the government to step up and it ended up being something where it
[44:04.480 -> 44:07.920] seemed like the best way forward was to do it myself. So it's a
[44:07.920 -> 44:12.240] joy and a pleasure. I've got my bachelorette party tomorrow night and
[44:12.240 -> 44:15.960] two of the people that I've met on that journey, a lady called Anas from Cardiff
[44:15.960 -> 44:20.080] who's retraining as a teacher having come from Syria, my friend Natalia
[44:20.080 -> 44:24.040] from the Ukraine. You know, I've just met people who make my life better. So
[44:24.040 -> 44:25.520] sounds a bit corny,
[44:26.080 -> 44:30.400] but lucky me for being able to do that. Yeah, now it doesn't sound corny, it sounds lovely.
[44:30.400 -> 44:34.080] And it's been a really interesting conversation and we're going to move on to our quickfire
[44:34.080 -> 44:39.440] questions in a moment. But before we do, it's so clear, even though we're not in the same room
[44:39.440 -> 44:45.120] recording this interview, that you love what you do, your passion, it seems as burning and as strong
[44:45.120 -> 44:49.920] as ever. What's the hidden cost of the life that you've lived and the way that the way
[44:49.920 -> 44:50.920] you've operated?
[44:50.920 -> 44:56.440] Heather Dyllon My health, time with my family, my grandma's
[44:56.440 -> 45:02.600] 98, I see her as much as I can, I'd love to see her more. I mean, I do prioritise her.
[45:02.600 -> 45:06.240] Probably my holidays are usually tagged on to the end of a city visit
[45:06.240 -> 45:13.120] where I've been for work. A lot of things, right? I'm a bit behind on box sets. My cats probably,
[45:13.120 -> 45:17.440] probably I overindulge them with tuna because I'm not there very much when I'm traveling.
[45:17.440 -> 45:22.560] There's a real human cost for which no violins out and nothing to feel sorry about, but there
[45:22.560 -> 45:27.280] absolutely is. And my grandpa, my grandpa was giving two pieces of advice, don't get old,
[45:27.280 -> 45:30.720] and you'll never be able to get back time that you spent at work, and when you're in a diet,
[45:30.720 -> 45:36.960] your deathbed, two of which are a bit tricky for me. But I will absolutely say that I have made
[45:36.960 -> 45:42.880] the most amazing friends and it's been exposed to people experiences, been invited to do things
[45:42.880 -> 45:45.760] beyond my wildest dreams dreams as a result of that
[45:45.760 -> 45:50.080] time I spent, right? Why are we talking today? I've driven myself bananas for a long time
[45:50.080 -> 45:56.080] building businesses, but I've got the opportunity to share this with you today and that is a
[45:56.080 -> 45:57.080] marvellous thing.
[45:57.080 -> 45:59.300] So it's worth the cost.
[45:59.300 -> 46:03.940] It feels like it's worth the cost to me now, but again, what I'm doing also provides for
[46:03.940 -> 46:09.440] all the people that I love. So it feels right for me and it feels right for me right now. And if that
[46:09.440 -> 46:14.280] ever changes, I won't, you know, you can't fake what you're feeling about my passion
[46:14.280 -> 46:18.920] at some point, maybe that won't be there. And maybe I'm like, all right, time for a
[46:18.920 -> 46:23.520] change. But right now I know where I want to go and I'm super focused on getting there.
[46:23.520 -> 46:25.680] Well, it's time for our quick fire questions, Emma.
[46:26.680 -> 46:27.280] First one.
[46:27.760 -> 46:33.120] Well, the first one is what are the three non-negotiables that you and the people around you have to buy into?
[46:34.080 -> 46:39.160] I guess kindness, respect and empathy.
[46:39.720 -> 46:40.280] Very nice.
[46:40.920 -> 46:42.960] Your biggest strength and your greatest weakness?
[46:43.600 -> 46:47.480] My biggest strength, probably persistence. Many people have
[46:47.480 -> 46:50.840] said to me, if I had your persistence, I would be X, Y, Z
[46:50.840 -> 46:57.160] here, there and everywhere. My biggest weakness is pet videos
[46:57.240 -> 47:00.040] on Instagram, I'd have a lot more sleep. And I'd have done a
[47:00.040 -> 47:03.760] lot more work. If you couldn't watch cats and ducks cuddling
[47:03.760 -> 47:10.000] each other with goats for 25 minutes. We've all got a weakness. I mean I exposed it here, don't tell.
[47:10.000 -> 47:15.080] So what's your biggest failure and how did you react to it? I mean I fail all
[47:15.080 -> 47:18.880] the time and I shove it under the carpet. I don't know, today's answer would
[47:18.880 -> 47:24.360] probably be telling my younger self to feel more confident about the decisions
[47:24.360 -> 47:25.220] I was making or the decisions I was making
[47:25.220 -> 47:27.420] or the journey I was going on and to speak up.
[47:27.420 -> 47:29.460] I never spoke up a lot, I was really shy.
[47:29.460 -> 47:31.940] I did always say hello in a lift quietly to the boss
[47:31.940 -> 47:34.940] and those sorts of things, that was my manners.
[47:34.940 -> 47:36.180] I wish I'd spoken up more,
[47:36.180 -> 47:38.420] probably would have achieved more faster
[47:38.420 -> 47:40.860] because I was always a bit too shy to ask.
[47:40.860 -> 47:44.100] Would you recommend one book that our listeners should read
[47:44.100 -> 47:50.400] that has been helpful for you? I really like The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugs by Anne Rand. I mean, they were
[47:50.400 -> 47:55.040] given to me by my best friend many years ago, and they basically talk about, there's elements
[47:55.040 -> 47:59.120] in them about selfishness, which doesn't appeal to lots of people, which I can entirely understand.
[47:59.120 -> 48:04.240] But for me, they're great tales of creation, creating something from nothing and, and how
[48:04.240 -> 48:07.640] love and business and social policy overlap.
[48:07.840 -> 48:10.360] But they are very fat books and I didn't read them for years.
[48:10.680 -> 48:27.160] I suppose other than that, I am that person who by the pool or by the beach, if I'm reading a book, is reading a book about how IBM became IBM or some element of a business book whilst everybody else is reading something lovely about the world or a rom-com.
[48:27.160 -> 48:28.420] So I've enjoyed many.
[48:28.420 -> 48:31.120] Most recently, I'm revisiting, re-reading,
[48:31.120 -> 48:34.240] The Alliance by Reid Hoffman and Chris Yeh,
[48:34.240 -> 48:36.040] which is effectively the precursor
[48:36.040 -> 48:37.160] to my business in many ways,
[48:37.160 -> 48:39.800] but it's about how people should interact
[48:39.800 -> 48:41.440] and how in a professional sense,
[48:41.440 -> 48:43.240] you should stay connected to other people
[48:43.240 -> 48:44.720] because you don't know where they're gonna go, right?
[48:44.720 -> 48:46.320] These days, people stay in jobs for
[48:46.320 -> 48:50.000] two years or three years whereas my parents stayed in a job for a lifetime
[48:50.000 -> 48:53.280] so I'm rereading that because it's partially relevant to my book but
[48:53.280 -> 48:57.640] actually reading about relationships is something I quite enjoy doing.
[48:57.640 -> 49:02.360] And finally then Emma, what's your one golden rule that you share with us for
[49:02.360 -> 49:05.360] listeners to live a high-performance life?
[49:12.400 -> 49:13.040] What is, I mean, that is a very hard question. I think persistence has probably been a consistent,
[49:18.320 -> 49:23.680] persistent thing I've said in this. So probably that, but tempering that with, if something is not working, there's nothing wrong with just drawing a line and going in a different direction.
[49:23.680 -> 49:25.020] So persistence doesn't
[49:25.020 -> 49:30.320] mean hanging on to a bone for dear life for as long as possible, even if that bone is
[49:30.320 -> 49:34.640] not the right bone. Sometimes you have to say to yourself very quickly, I've been doing
[49:34.640 -> 49:38.960] this for a long time, but it's not right. And I'm suddenly going to take a U-turn or
[49:38.960 -> 49:45.620] go left. So persistence, but knowing also when to change direction with that persistence.
[49:48.460 -> 49:51.100] Emma, so many takeaways in that conversation. I get the sense that people will learn a lot from that
[49:51.100 -> 49:52.600] and you're too humble to agree with me.
[49:52.600 -> 49:53.700] I know you were about to say,
[49:53.700 -> 49:55.260] oh, I don't think so, but they will.
[49:55.260 -> 49:57.740] And it's so kind of you to come on here
[49:57.740 -> 50:00.460] after all these years of hard work and graft
[50:00.460 -> 50:02.260] and failure and success and learning
[50:02.260 -> 50:04.380] and understanding other people to come on
[50:04.380 -> 50:06.840] and share so much. It's a sign of your generosity, which has also shone through in this interview.
[50:06.840 -> 50:07.840] So thank you.
[50:07.840 -> 50:08.840] That's very kind.
[50:08.840 -> 50:09.840] That's very kind.
[50:09.840 -> 50:14.360] But hopefully, especially some of those young people have had food for thought and get on
[50:14.360 -> 50:20.120] Twitter, tweet us, other entrepreneurs, business leaders, sports people, because people generally
[50:20.120 -> 50:21.120] reply, ask questions.
[50:21.120 -> 50:26.080] When I started, you couldn't ask these questions, but now everyone can ask us
[50:26.080 -> 50:27.960] these questions anyway, anyhow.
[50:28.000 -> 50:29.160] So lucky them.
[50:29.200 -> 50:30.360] Thank you very much for having me.
[50:34.840 -> 50:35.360] Damien.
[50:35.800 -> 50:36.360] Jake.
[50:36.600 -> 50:38.240] So much to take away from that.
[50:38.240 -> 50:41.440] You know, my favourite thing was when she said, everyone is my equal.
[50:41.440 -> 50:42.600] We just do different things.
[50:43.000 -> 50:43.560] Oh yeah.
[50:44.000 -> 50:44.800] Powerful, wasn't it?
[50:44.920 -> 50:50.600] Well, we just live in this world. Just because, you know, if you're on the telly, you're more important than someone that isn't on the telly.
[50:50.600 -> 50:53.300] If you're a CEO, you're more important than an intern.
[50:53.300 -> 50:57.500] If you're working on the tills in McDonald's, you're more important than the person like me who used to cook the chips.
[50:57.500 -> 51:07.720] You know, society is all about ranking us and putting us in categories and those categories are all about making some people feel great and some people feel not great and I think
[51:07.720 -> 51:10.860] that's a really good way of thinking everyone is my equal we just do
[51:10.860 -> 51:14.720] different things because actually does it matter what your job is what your
[51:14.720 -> 51:18.000] role is what your position is in a business that's not you that's not the
[51:18.000 -> 51:21.480] person is it that's just society's label that's stuck on you.
[51:21.480 -> 51:28.160] Yeah yeah you're right I did I saw a quote this week that reminds me of what you're talking about there. It was an old Muhammad Ali quote where
[51:28.160 -> 51:32.560] he said that I don't trust someone who's nice to me, but rude to the waiter, because that
[51:32.560 -> 51:36.600] would tell me that they treat me in the same way if I were in that position. And I think
[51:36.600 -> 51:40.760] it's about human connections, which is what Emma spoke really powerfully there, the way
[51:40.760 -> 51:45.640] she spoke about refugees that she's taken in and just seeing the person,
[51:45.640 -> 51:48.880] not even using that title of being a refugee,
[51:48.880 -> 51:51.680] and seeing the person behind it is really powerful
[51:51.680 -> 51:54.760] and obviously testimony to her ability to connect
[51:54.760 -> 51:57.720] and engage with others that's made her so successful.
[51:57.720 -> 51:58.540] It was great.
[51:58.540 -> 51:59.400] Thank you, mate.
[51:59.400 -> 52:00.240] Loved it, mate.
[52:00.240 -> 52:01.060] Thank you.
[52:05.440 -> 52:07.760] Well, I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation.
[52:07.760 -> 52:09.960] Listen, most people that listen to this podcast
[52:09.960 -> 52:12.340] don't follow us, they don't subscribe to our channels.
[52:12.340 -> 52:13.440] Wherever you're listening to this,
[52:13.440 -> 52:15.840] if you can please just hit subscribe,
[52:15.840 -> 52:18.040] it basically means that we can move up the charts,
[52:18.040 -> 52:19.480] it basically means that we can reach out
[52:19.480 -> 52:20.520] to more people than ever before,
[52:20.520 -> 52:23.400] we can grow the brand so that we can continue
[52:23.400 -> 52:26.800] to change lives through high performance because it's only you
[52:26.900 -> 52:28.200] that is growing this podcast.
[52:28.200 -> 52:30.100] It's only you sharing this podcast.
[52:30.100 -> 52:31.300] That means we can have an impact.
[52:31.300 -> 52:34.300] So please continue to spread the learnings you're taking from
[52:34.300 -> 52:35.000] this series.
[52:35.300 -> 52:37.000] Thanks to the whole team for their hard work.
[52:37.000 -> 52:39.100] Thanks to PWC for being our partners.
[52:39.100 -> 52:41.000] Remember there is no secret.
[52:41.300 -> 52:42.200] It's all there for you.
[52:42.500 -> 52:43.900] So chase world-class basics.
[52:44.300 -> 52:45.080] Don't get high on your
[52:45.080 -> 53:05.320] own supply, remain humble, curious and empathetic, and we'll see you soon. Bye!