E149 - Deborah Cadman: Why walking in the shoes of others can make you a better leader

This is the third episode in our CEO Series, in which we will be deep diving into what it takes to be a CEO.

Deborah Cadman OBE is the current CEO of Birmingham City Council, Deborah has worked in public services for over 30 years and was appointed OBE for her services to local government. In this episode they discuss how crucial mentorship and building a supportive community is. Deborah shares the importance of walking in the shoes of others to understand how you can be a better leader. Leadership is a theme covered throughout the episode as Deborah discusses her key principles and how she utilises them in her personal and professional life: bravery, curiosity and truth. 

She reflects on her moral purpose, why issues need to be dealt with from a long term outlook and how crucial perspective is…

Thank you to PwC for sponsoring this special CEO Series. PwC’s purpose is to build trust and solve important problems, and their global strategy - The New Equation - is bringing this to life for their clients, people and society. By combining technology with human ingenuity, passion and experience, PwC works with organisations to deliver more intelligent, sustained outcomes.

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Sure, here is a summary of the podcast episode transcript:

**Introduction**

* The episode is the third in a series of CEO interviews, focusing on the qualities and skills needed to be an effective CEO.
* The guest is Deborah Cadman OBE, the current CEO of Birmingham City Council.

**Key Themes**

* **The importance of mentorship and building a supportive community:** Deborah emphasizes the crucial role of mentors and a supportive network in her career journey. She highlights the value of walking in others' shoes to understand how to be a better leader.
* **Leadership principles:** Deborah discusses her key leadership principles: bravery, curiosity, and truth. She emphasizes the need to be brave in decision-making, curious about the status quo, and committed to doing the right thing for the right reasons.
* **Long-term perspective and moral purpose:** Deborah stresses the importance of taking a long-term perspective in addressing issues and having a clear moral purpose. She believes that investing in prevention and early intervention can break negative cycles and improve the lives of future generations.
* **Collaboration and systems leadership:** Deborah advocates for a collaborative approach to leadership, working across organizations and sectors to address complex societal challenges. She emphasizes the need for leaders to understand and influence systems, rather than focusing solely on their own organizations.
* **The challenges of being a female leader:** Deborah acknowledges the challenges faced by women in leadership positions, including public scrutiny, media treatment, and the lack of a level playing field. She calls for organizations to create inclusive cultures that value and support women's leadership.

**Key Quotes**

* "You can be a leader and be happy. You can be a CEO and still be mindful. You can be successful and still put your mental health, your wellbeing, and yourself first."
* "I think that's really important. You know, I talk to them about the things they need to do to find their way in the world. But the most important thing is you've got to work hard."
* "I'm led to believe that the most powerful person in the room is the person that's got nothing to lose and that's you."
* "I think it's about keeping it in perspective. And you know, when something happens, you know, everybody kind of goes up, they all flap about. And about and I kind of say look let's just chill your beans a bit let's not have a knee-jerk reaction let's just understand what this is really about let's be thoughtful let's be tactical let's do the right thing at the right time for the right reason rather than just it's knee-jerk reaction."
* "And then the third one really is about being true. And what I mean by that is about, you know, doing the right thing for the right reason and, and certainly working in the kind of environment that's, that's political, both with a big and a small p, it's complicated, it's difficult, it's, you know, you're having to work with different levels of governance. You can be buffeted a bit, you know, in my world, and in the way in which I work, I'm really thoughtful about doing the right thing."

**Conclusion**

The episode provides valuable insights into the leadership journey of Deborah Cadman OBE, highlighting the importance of mentorship, collaboration, long-term thinking, and moral purpose. Deborah's experiences and perspectives offer valuable lessons for aspiring leaders in both the public and private sectors.

# CEO Series: Deborah Cadman OBE, CEO of Birmingham City Council

In this episode of the CEO Series, Damien Lewis and Jake Humphrey engage in a captivating conversation with Deborah Cadman OBE, the current CEO of Birmingham City Council, who has dedicated over 30 years of her life to public service. Deborah shares her insights on the significance of mentorship, building supportive communities, and the key principles that guide her leadership style: bravery, curiosity, and truth.

Deborah emphasizes the importance of walking in others' shoes to understand how to be a better leader. She discusses how crucial it is to create an organizational culture that has high expectations, places people at the heart of its operations, and values community involvement.

Reflecting on her moral purpose, Deborah stresses the need to address issues with a long-term perspective and highlights the importance of perspective in decision-making. She believes that legacy is a vital aspect of leadership, and she aims to leave a lasting impact on Birmingham through the 2022 Commonwealth Games by investing in community-based sports, culture, and business opportunities.

Deborah candidly shares her personal approach to work-life balance, acknowledging that she is not the best example in this regard. She emphasizes the importance of taking breaks and maintaining physical and mental well-being through activities like boxing. Drawing parallels between boxing and leadership, she highlights the significance of anticipating moves, understanding motivations, and staying one step ahead.

Deborah provides valuable advice to those starting their careers, emphasizing the need to understand the culture of their organization and to set boundaries to maintain a healthy work-life balance. She also discusses the supportive role of her husband, Geoff, in her professional journey, highlighting the importance of having someone who appreciates the intricacies of her work.

Deborah credits her coach for challenging her perceptions and helping her make better decisions. She shares an insightful moment where her coach helped her realize the power she holds as the person with nothing to lose, leading to a shift in her mindset and approach to decision-making.

In the quickfire questions segment, Deborah emphasizes the importance of kindness, thoughtfulness, listening, and putting things into perspective. She advises her teenage self to appreciate opportunities and avoid making regrettable mistakes. She identifies honesty and empathy as her strengths and impatience as her weakness. Reflecting on her journey, Deborah expresses gratitude for the support she has received and acknowledges the exciting and challenging phase Birmingham is currently in. Her final message to listeners is to never settle for less than the best.

The podcast concludes with Damien, Jake, Steve, and Karl discussing their key takeaways from the conversation. They highlight Deborah's ability to change and grow over time, her focus on creating an environment where magic can happen, and the significance of perspective and adaptability in leadership.

Overall, this episode provides valuable insights into the world of leadership, emphasizing the importance of mentorship, community, and personal growth. Deborah Cadman's experiences and perspectives offer practical lessons and inspiration for aspiring and seasoned leaders alike.

[00:00.000 -> 00:07.760] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey. This is High Performance, a conversation for you every single week.
[00:07.760 -> 00:12.040] You're listening to the podcast that reminds you that it's within your ambition, your purpose,
[00:12.040 -> 00:16.800] your story. It's all there. We just help to unlock it by turning the lived experiences
[00:16.800 -> 00:22.120] of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. And this is the third and latest
[00:22.120 -> 00:26.000] episode of our CEO series in partnership with PwC
[00:26.000 -> 00:31.120] And the whole point about this series about being a CEO is that we want to tell the truth about leadership
[00:31.120 -> 00:37.480] I think there are so many toxic messages out there at the moment about saying work harder find your passion
[00:37.680 -> 00:40.160] Use every minute of every day that you know
[00:40.160 -> 00:43.660] The new generation don't know what hard work is and they're not good for the workplace
[00:43.660 -> 00:45.160] But here's the truth.
[00:45.160 -> 00:48.020] You can be a leader and be happy.
[00:48.020 -> 00:51.160] You can be a CEO and still be mindful.
[00:51.160 -> 00:54.760] You can be successful and still put your mental health
[00:54.760 -> 00:57.200] and your wellbeing and yourself first.
[00:57.200 -> 00:59.200] We need to change this conversation
[00:59.200 -> 01:00.680] around toxic working cultures,
[01:00.680 -> 01:02.720] and I really hope that this CEO series
[01:02.720 -> 01:04.120] can help us to do that.
[01:04.120 -> 01:08.000] And today I'm really excited actually to bring you someone who isn't a multi-billionaire,
[01:08.000 -> 01:12.000] isn't someone who had entrepreneurship coursing through her veins from the age of 11
[01:12.000 -> 01:16.000] and set up 15 businesses and exited them for inordinate sums of money.
[01:16.000 -> 01:21.000] Today we speak to someone who is at the front line of improving our society
[01:21.000 -> 01:24.000] and these are also the leaders that we should be celebrating.
[01:24.000 -> 01:25.440] Today we welcome to High
[01:25.440 -> 01:29.440] Performance someone who's just been integral to helping deliver the Commonwealth Games in
[01:29.440 -> 01:36.000] Birmingham. This episode of the CEO Series is with the current interim Chief Executive of Birmingham
[01:36.000 -> 01:40.160] City Council, Deborah Cadman, OBE. Deborah Cadman, OBE CEO, City Council
[01:40.160 -> 01:47.580] And there'll be decisions in your career and in your life where it's unknown and it's scary and but instinctively
[01:47.580 -> 01:50.280] you'll know that it's it's the right thing to do.
[01:51.040 -> 01:55.240] I regularly kind of talk to young women because I think that's really important.
[01:55.240 -> 01:59.360] You know, I talk to them about the things they need to do to find their way in the world.
[01:59.360 -> 02:02.980] But the most important thing is you've got to work hard.
[02:03.760 -> 02:12.800] In my experience, women are far better working across organisations collaboratively than
[02:12.800 -> 02:15.000] some of my male colleagues.
[02:15.000 -> 02:18.900] I'm led to believe that the most powerful person in the room is the person that's got
[02:18.900 -> 02:21.800] nothing to lose and that's you.
[02:21.800 -> 02:25.200] You know what, I think Debra has got a really cool story and actually people
[02:25.200 -> 02:29.000] like Deborah are people that we should celebrate we've got to be so careful
[02:29.000 -> 02:34.120] just putting people in huge houses and driving around in Ferraris and talking
[02:34.120 -> 02:38.480] about their ebit and their turnover and their incredible wealth on a pedestal
[02:38.480 -> 02:43.680] sometimes we have to put someone on a pedestal like Deborah who's devoted her
[02:43.680 -> 02:48.960] life to helping to improve the lives of others. But she's done it by being a leader, she's done it by
[02:48.960 -> 02:53.280] understanding the power of communication, by bringing people together and sometimes
[02:53.280 -> 02:56.760] in the political arena, which is where she's operating, that can be such a
[02:56.760 -> 03:00.680] difficult thing to do. So how has she done it and what can we learn from her?
[03:00.680 -> 03:04.360] I really hope you enjoy the latest episode of this CEO series of the High
[03:04.360 -> 03:08.660] Performance Podcast and it's brought to you by PWC and we were keen to work with them because we
[03:08.660 -> 03:13.760] believe that they often set the bar for leadership, for culture, for inclusion, for the future
[03:13.760 -> 03:18.880] of work and their purpose is to help build trust and solve those important problems and
[03:18.880 -> 03:23.440] their global strategy, the new equation, is bringing this to life for their clients, for
[03:23.440 -> 03:26.520] people and society by combining technology
[03:26.520 -> 03:29.500] with human ingenuity, passion and experience.
[03:29.500 -> 03:31.520] They work with organisations to deliver
[03:31.520 -> 03:35.000] more intelligent, sustained outcomes.
[03:35.000 -> 03:37.400] So what's the intelligence that's delivered
[03:37.400 -> 03:39.840] sustained outcomes for Deborah Cadman?
[03:39.840 -> 03:42.120] You're about to hear from the chief exec
[03:42.120 -> 03:44.160] of Birmingham City Council
[03:44.160 -> 03:45.920] on the High Performance Podcast
[03:45.920 -> 03:48.840] CEO Special.
[03:48.840 -> 03:54.520] Deborah, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of High Performance. Let's
[03:54.520 -> 03:58.880] start as we always do. What does high performance really mean to you?
[03:58.880 -> 04:06.000] I think it means being the best you can and rocking up every day to work to do a good job but
[04:06.000 -> 04:12.000] also high performance means that you never quite achieve it so my view is it
[04:12.000 -> 04:17.120] doesn't matter how senior I am how brilliant people think I am I need to
[04:17.120 -> 04:21.680] understand I can always be better. So no resting on laurels? Absolutely not and I
[04:21.680 -> 04:25.280] became a chief exec 18 years ago and worked for a number of
[04:25.280 -> 04:29.880] different organizations and the world is a very different place now than it
[04:29.880 -> 04:34.800] was 18 years ago. So you know it's about keeping current, it's about renewing, it's
[04:34.800 -> 04:39.440] about reframing, it's about refreshing and it's always always about striving to
[04:39.440 -> 04:43.280] be better. So what would you say has been the biggest change in the 18 years since
[04:43.280 -> 04:46.280] you took on that leadership role in Debra?
[04:46.280 -> 04:49.800] I think certainly for the public sector it's an acknowledgement that people don't live
[04:49.800 -> 04:57.920] their lives in neat and tiny boxes. So some of our population have really complex, tricky
[04:57.920 -> 05:06.680] lives and the City Council cannot respond to those tricky lives on its own. So I've noticed a real shift to
[05:06.680 -> 05:10.960] looking at systems leadership rather than being focused on leadership of one
[05:10.960 -> 05:15.240] particular organization. So people's lives are interdependent, so you know if
[05:15.240 -> 05:18.680] you have someone with mental health problems living in rubbish housing, you
[05:18.680 -> 05:22.320] know it's got to be a response from local government and the health service
[05:22.320 -> 05:26.440] for example. you know seeing leadership
[05:24.080 -> 05:28.280] change and adapt to that has been quite
[05:26.440 -> 05:30.680] interesting. That's the biggest shift
[05:28.280 -> 05:33.080] I think since over the last 18 years.
[05:30.680 -> 05:35.560] So that sounds to me then that that's a
[05:33.080 -> 05:38.480] shift of leadership of where you have
[05:35.560 -> 05:41.520] to almost influence organizations where
[05:38.480 -> 05:44.280] you actually don't carry any status or
[05:41.520 -> 05:45.960] necessarily any credibility. Is that an
[05:44.280 -> 05:45.120] accurate read?
[05:45.120 -> 05:49.840] I think that's absolutely right and it's 100% harder I think you know working in
[05:49.840 -> 05:53.840] that collaborative way is really difficult and I'm gonna go out on a limb
[05:53.840 -> 06:01.740] here and say in my experience women are far better working across organizations
[06:01.740 -> 06:05.360] collaboratively than some of my male colleagues.
[06:05.360 -> 06:11.280] So share with us please what are we doing wrong that you wonderful women are getting right?
[06:11.280 -> 06:16.160] It's not so much what you're doing wrong, it's just, you know, I think women are more prepared
[06:16.160 -> 06:21.440] to come to the table and say okay, this isn't a zero-sum game, it's not about you win I lose,
[06:21.440 -> 06:26.880] this has got to be about how we find that point of
[06:26.880 -> 06:31.080] similarity and you know we come to the table saying okay there's a
[06:31.080 -> 06:35.360] problem here let's find the solution and I think women are generally more prepared
[06:35.360 -> 06:40.160] to do that in my experience. I wonder whether part of the problem here is
[06:40.160 -> 06:46.240] actually men can work in that same way as women, but traditionally those kinds
[06:46.240 -> 06:50.960] of people haven't been promoted in the workplace. And I think that often the people that get
[06:50.960 -> 06:55.920] to the top of the tree are the ones that are bombastic and loud and the loudest person
[06:55.920 -> 06:59.680] in the room quite often, whereas sometimes it's the deeper thinkers that get left behind
[06:59.680 -> 07:01.920] that are the ones that can be more impactful maybe.
[07:01.920 -> 07:09.120] I get what you mean and, you know know I think what you've described is predominantly what people would class as male
[07:09.120 -> 07:13.840] attributes, male leadership kind of skills really and and I guess what I'm
[07:13.840 -> 07:18.280] saying is that you know working in a more collaborative cross-organizational
[07:18.280 -> 07:24.080] way lends itself I think more to to female leadership styles. So tell us how
[07:24.080 -> 07:25.280] you do it then Deborah, so you're walking into a meeting with a chief exec of a i ffeilion o leoliaeth ffemil. Felly dweud wrthym sut y gafwch chi ei wneud, Debra?
[07:25.280 -> 07:30.240] Felly, rydych chi'n mynd i mewn i gydgyfres gyda chyfreswr arbennig o gwahanol sefydliad
[07:30.240 -> 07:45.400] ac ydych chi'n teimlo bod yna efallai dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma dyma against that and actually create a
[07:42.280 -> 07:47.320] culture where that win-win mentality then
[07:45.400 -> 07:49.600] does start to permeate? I think the
[07:47.320 -> 07:51.000] first thing is about understanding why
[07:49.600 -> 07:53.400] we're in the room in the first place
[07:51.000 -> 07:55.720] and invariably it's because there's a
[07:53.400 -> 07:57.920] problem, there's a challenge, you know, certain
[07:55.720 -> 08:00.440] members of our communities are experiencing
[07:57.920 -> 08:01.960] difficulties. So it's about being clear
[08:00.440 -> 08:04.120] about why we're in the room, it's
[08:01.960 -> 08:06.320] understanding what the challenge is
[08:04.120 -> 08:08.360] and getting everybody starting from the same place. This is a challenge we all have a
[08:08.360 -> 08:12.760] role in solving and then saying, okay, well how do we solve it collectively? I'm
[08:12.760 -> 08:16.240] the one that kind of talks about the inconvenient truth really and I'm
[08:16.240 -> 08:20.280] always trying to bring people back to, well let's just understand why, what
[08:20.280 -> 08:23.240] we're trying to do here and what we're trying to achieve. But it is about
[08:23.240 -> 08:25.200] bringing people back to why are we doing this and actually nine times out of ten what we're trying to do here and what we're trying to achieve. But it is about
[08:23.280 -> 08:25.680] bringing people back to why are we doing
[08:25.200 -> 08:27.600] this.
[08:25.680 -> 08:29.440] And actually nine times out of ten it's
[08:27.600 -> 08:31.040] not about us, it's about you know
[08:29.440 -> 08:32.080] people in our communities who need our
[08:31.040 -> 08:34.080] services most.
[08:32.080 -> 08:35.440] So you're describing there having a really
[08:34.080 -> 08:37.280] powerful sense of
[08:35.440 -> 08:39.440] purpose or being able to answer the
[08:37.280 -> 08:40.080] why. So what would you say your role as
[08:39.440 -> 08:42.560] a leader
[08:40.080 -> 08:43.680] is then in answering that question? So
[08:42.560 -> 08:47.040] in Birmingham
[08:43.680 -> 08:45.280] what is your why?
[08:45.280 -> 08:49.800] So the purpose is, and I'm absolutely clear about this, the purpose is about delivering
[08:49.800 -> 08:54.640] the best services we can to meet the needs of our communities. Our wages are paid through
[08:54.640 -> 08:59.680] a variety of local taxation, council tax and central government kind of funding, and we
[08:59.680 -> 09:06.000] are paid to deliver a service to local people. Therefore, it's really important that we continuously hear
[09:06.000 -> 09:08.000] the heartbeat of both our
[09:08.000 -> 09:10.000] people and our places.
[09:10.000 -> 09:12.000] So the way you were describing that sense of
[09:12.000 -> 09:14.000] purpose, Deborah, sort of made me think
[09:14.000 -> 09:16.000] that a lot of the services that you
[09:16.000 -> 09:18.000] offer and the difference that you make to
[09:18.000 -> 09:20.000] lives is only noticed when you don't
[09:20.000 -> 09:22.000] deliver it. So there'll be a lot of people that only
[09:22.000 -> 09:24.000] pay attention to what you do when
[09:24.000 -> 09:26.760] the system breaks down or it fails or it doesn't work effectively it. So there'll be a lot of people that only pay attention to what you do when
[09:23.960 -> 09:29.480] the system breaks down or it fails or it
[09:26.760 -> 09:31.440] doesn't work effectively, rather than the
[09:29.480 -> 09:34.400] moments when it does. So how do you cope
[09:31.440 -> 09:36.680] with that, where often the focus only
[09:34.400 -> 09:38.760] lies on you when failure occurs rather
[09:36.680 -> 09:40.640] than when success does? I would turn that
[09:38.760 -> 09:42.800] around and yes of course we have to deal
[09:40.640 -> 09:44.600] with failure. So we look after children
[09:42.800 -> 09:47.480] and that's one of the most heartbreaking
[09:44.600 -> 09:50.800] parts of my job, I would argue. But we will always be in a position where we have to look
[09:50.800 -> 09:56.080] after children because they're not able to be looked after and protected in their homes and
[09:56.080 -> 10:01.440] with their families. The council is now looking at ways in which we can intervene earlier, we can
[10:01.440 -> 10:05.760] prevent that happening in the first place. Now that's
[10:03.920 -> 10:07.440] a real challenge because
[10:05.760 -> 10:09.360] you know people will always be in crisis
[10:07.440 -> 10:11.840] and we will always have to respond to that.
[10:09.360 -> 10:13.280] But I want us to break out of that cycle
[10:11.840 -> 10:15.360] of continuously
[10:13.280 -> 10:16.880] having to deal with failure. I would much
[10:15.360 -> 10:19.840] rather invest time
[10:16.880 -> 10:21.200] in preventing and supporting communities
[10:19.840 -> 10:23.520] so they can live
[10:21.200 -> 10:24.400] productive lives and not have to rely
[10:23.520 -> 10:26.720] on
[10:24.400 -> 10:25.920] on council services. And that's a really i gael byw bywydau cyfrifol ac i ddim bydd angen i'w dylunio ar gynlluniau cyngor.
[10:25.920 -> 10:27.540] Ac mae hynny'n pwynt gwych iawn.
[10:27.540 -> 10:31.280] Dwi ddim yn gwybod a ydych wedi yr enw Dan Heath wedi ysgrifennu, Upstream,
[10:31.280 -> 10:32.280] nad ydw i.
[10:32.280 -> 10:35.760] sy'n dweud y byddwch chi'n mynd ymlaen ymlaen, felly gallwch ddweud, os oes gennych
[10:35.760 -> 10:41.000] i'w ail-adnoddi, dweud, y gallwch chi rhoi at ymgeisyddau am ddewis amethyrwyr
[10:41.000 -> 10:46.000] gan mynd yn fawr yn oer, yn ydiad i ddysgu plant yn ysgol,
[10:46.000 -> 10:49.000] gall y materion iechyd fod yn cael eu paratoi 20 mlynedd o'r blaen,
[10:49.000 -> 10:53.000] ond rydych chi'n cael ymdrech ar sut rydych chi'n cyrraedd cymorth heddiw,
[10:53.000 -> 10:55.000] yn hytrach na'r 20 mlynedd.
[10:55.000 -> 10:58.000] Felly, sut ydych chi'n ymdrechu hynny fel lywodraeth,
[10:58.000 -> 11:00.000] yn gallu cyfathrebu ar broblemau cyfnodol,
[11:00.000 -> 11:05.000] trwy'n dechrau ceisio hefyd ymdrechu a'u gwella i lywodraethau y dydd i ddod o hyd i chi? Dyna'r gynhalwad mwyaf. while actually trying to mitigate and prevent them for future leaders that come after you?
[11:05.000 -> 11:10.000] That is the biggest challenge, well one of the biggest challenges that I'm experiencing at the moment.
[11:10.000 -> 11:15.000] Because it's not just taking decisions to divert money away at a council level,
[11:15.000 -> 11:19.000] it's also about that systems leadership that I was talking about.
[11:19.000 -> 11:23.000] You know, if there are health issues with some of our children, if they're obese,
[11:23.000 -> 11:28.580] if they, you know, they can't read and write by the time they go to school. It's not just education or the
[11:28.580 -> 11:31.920] local authority, it's also about health as well. You know, the cost of living I
[11:31.920 -> 11:36.520] think will have an impact on the future of some of our young people in the city
[11:36.520 -> 11:40.280] and, you know, they're exposed and they're vulnerable and, you know,
[11:40.280 -> 11:44.720] potentially kind of influenced by other factors that would lead them down a path
[11:44.720 -> 11:47.800] of criminal activity. And I don't want to stereotype how young
[11:47.800 -> 11:51.240] people, not at all, but it is something that we have to think about because
[11:51.240 -> 11:55.000] we know it's coming our way. So we have to put the building blocks in right now
[11:55.000 -> 11:59.000] to stop that negative impact. But it can't be the City Council that does that
[11:59.000 -> 12:02.440] on its own, it's got to be working in partnership in that system of delivery.
[12:02.440 -> 12:08.120] But what I'm interested in, Debra, is how do you persuade people to join that same page
[12:08.120 -> 12:14.080] as you rather than you know firefighting is addictive I can imagine the idea of
[12:14.080 -> 12:19.040] rushing in and dealing with a crisis when it's right in front of your face is
[12:19.040 -> 12:24.360] incredibly satisfying. How do you shift that focus to look at it from a more
[12:24.360 -> 12:29.920] longer-term point of view? Two things, one is about the economics of it, it's the money and
[12:29.920 -> 12:35.520] very often the money will drive activity and delivery. But the second has to be
[12:35.520 -> 12:39.880] that moral purpose that we spoke about earlier. We know that if we intervene and
[12:39.880 -> 12:45.640] support and prevent people dipping into crisis, the future of their lives will be so
[12:45.640 -> 12:49.000] much better. You know people say we're not going to be able to afford that
[12:49.000 -> 12:53.500] but my response is very clearly can we afford not to? So you know a third of our
[12:53.500 -> 12:57.560] kids not being school ready, you know if we don't intervene that is a third of
[12:57.560 -> 13:01.560] potentially a third of our working population not being in a position to
[13:01.560 -> 13:07.440] to take advantage of job opportunities that are coming on stream in 15, 16, 17 years time. Well I remember reading a really interesting start that said in a position to take advantage of job opportunities that are coming on stream in 15, 16, 17 years' time.
[13:07.440 -> 13:12.400] Well I remember reading a really interesting start that said in America they build prisons,
[13:12.400 -> 13:18.320] they predict how many prisons will be needed to be built based on the literacy levels of people
[13:18.320 -> 13:23.600] leaving school. So they can almost predict that five, ten years down the line people that can't
[13:23.600 -> 13:27.680] read or write are somehow going to find themselves in the criminal system.
[13:27.680 -> 13:33.080] But surely it's better to just invest money in education, supporting families and kids.
[13:33.080 -> 13:37.200] You know, if you know that that's potentially going to be the outcome and it's going to
[13:37.200 -> 13:42.520] be high cost and people's futures are going to be damaged or limited, then you know, do
[13:42.520 -> 13:43.840] something about it now.
[13:43.840 -> 13:48.120] Deborah, I listen to you speak and I just think how do you not become overwhelmed with
[13:48.120 -> 13:51.920] a job on your hands? I've got two children and it keeps me awake at night trying to see
[13:51.920 -> 13:56.280] them down the right path. You're talking about the lives of tens of thousands of young people
[13:56.280 -> 14:00.080] in the city that you're in charge of. What sort of techniques or tips have you learned
[14:00.080 -> 14:03.920] not to allow the scale of the job to overwhelm you?
[14:03.920 -> 14:08.760] I think it's about being able to put it in perspective as well and just gaining that
[14:08.760 -> 14:14.020] sense of resilience as well. And certainly since I've done this job, it's kind of physical
[14:14.020 -> 14:19.480] fitness as well as kind of mental wellbeing is really, really important to me. But it
[14:19.480 -> 14:23.600] is about keeping it in perspective. And you know, when something happens, you know, everybody
[14:23.600 -> 14:28.400] kind of goes up, they all flap about. And about and I kind of say look let's just chill your
[14:28.400 -> 14:32.500] beans a bit let's not have a knee-jerk reaction let's just understand what this
[14:32.500 -> 14:36.400] is really about let's be thoughtful let's be tactical let's do the right
[14:36.400 -> 14:40.160] thing at the right time for the right reason rather than just it's knee-jerk
[14:40.160 -> 14:44.160] reaction. So have you got a set of questions that you always ask yourself
[14:44.160 -> 14:47.420] when you're in this crisis mode or something where you know they are the
[14:47.420 -> 14:50.680] right, they're the right places for you to go mentally at the beginning to get
[14:50.680 -> 14:54.220] to the place you want to get to? Sometimes you've got to be really brave
[14:54.220 -> 14:58.220] about some of these things because the decisions will be different and out of
[14:58.220 -> 15:02.780] the norm and there'll be decisions in your career and in your life where it's
[15:02.780 -> 15:05.920] unknown and it's scary and, but
[15:05.920 -> 15:11.800] instinctively you'll know that it's the right thing to do. And then it's about being curious.
[15:11.800 -> 15:16.520] Some people could say it's being troublesome, but I'd rather call it curious really and
[15:16.520 -> 15:20.800] ask questions about, you know, the status quo and, you know, if stuff isn't working,
[15:20.800 -> 15:23.520] then why are you doing it in the same way that you've always done it? I'm just curious
[15:23.520 -> 15:28.760] to know. So being a little bit disruptive and a little bit curious about, about constantly
[15:28.760 -> 15:31.520] trying to understand and refine and improve.
[15:31.640 -> 15:33.920] And then the third one really is about being true.
[15:34.240 -> 15:37.600] And what I mean by that is about, you know, doing the right thing for the right
[15:37.600 -> 15:41.840] reason and, and certainly working in the kind of environment that's, that's
[15:41.840 -> 15:46.240] political, both with a big and a small p, it's complicated,
[15:46.240 -> 15:51.040] it's difficult, it's, you know, you're having to work with different levels of governance.
[15:51.040 -> 15:57.120] You can be buffeted a bit, you know, in my world, and in the way in which I work, I'm
[15:57.120 -> 16:00.120] really thoughtful about doing the right thing.
[16:00.120 -> 16:05.240] And does having that North Star that you follow, or a really firm belief in the courage of
[16:05.240 -> 16:08.860] your convictions, you know you're making a decision for the right reasons, does that
[16:08.860 -> 16:13.280] also help alleviate something else that absolutely comes your way when you're in a position that
[16:13.280 -> 16:18.640] you're in, which is that scrutiny, the questioning, the public opinion, the newspaper stories,
[16:18.640 -> 16:22.840] whatever it might be, so that you're able to say, look, whatever happens, I know that
[16:22.840 -> 16:27.320] I made this decision with the very best of intentions, rather than being swayed by other people?
[16:27.320 -> 16:32.960] 100%. I'm in a position now where I'm far more confident, and I think I've got far more
[16:32.960 -> 16:37.960] credibility than I had 18 years ago. So making those decisions is a little bit easier for
[16:37.960 -> 16:43.200] me, really. There are times when it can still be tough, really, but my view is, you know,
[16:43.200 -> 16:45.680] I have to go home at night and sleep
[16:45.680 -> 16:50.400] with myself at night and you know there are lines beyond which I don't think any of us
[16:50.400 -> 16:54.200] should be prepared to step actually if they're the wrong lines.
[16:54.200 -> 16:58.040] So what element of your job brings you the biggest and I'm talking about you personally
[16:58.040 -> 17:03.820] really I know there are huge you know socio-economic issues in Birmingham that will worry you and
[17:03.820 -> 17:05.200] keep you awake at night maybe, but
[17:05.200 -> 17:11.000] from a personal perspective, what element of the job causes you concern? What's the
[17:11.000 -> 17:13.320] area that you are sort of least comfortable with?
[17:13.320 -> 17:17.240] The thing that keeps me awake at night is the future of our kids. You know, we're the
[17:17.240 -> 17:24.040] youngest place in Europe. You know, 40% of our population are under the age of 25. So
[17:24.040 -> 17:26.720] what's really important for me is that all the
[17:26.720 -> 17:31.280] brilliant investment that's being made in Birmingham at the moment, and it is phenomenal, and
[17:31.280 -> 17:36.960] the Commonwealth Games will improve that. It's about making sure that all that investment is
[17:36.960 -> 17:43.120] done in an inclusive way, where they invest just as much in the community and the people as they do
[17:43.120 -> 17:45.360] in the physical place. But it is,
[17:45.360 -> 17:51.000] you know, just making sure that all that brilliant investment means something for our young people.
[17:51.000 -> 17:56.320] So they, they want to stay, they want to work, they want to live in this brilliant city.
[17:56.320 -> 18:00.680] And I'm very interested in what's got you to the place you're at today, Deborah. I read
[18:00.680 -> 18:08.160] a great quote where you said, being impatient was important. You couldn't wait for openings in organisations, so you would attack and go for another organisation and
[18:08.160 -> 18:12.280] get different experiences. That sounds very similar to how you've just described how you
[18:12.280 -> 18:16.320] lead people. You know, you're inquisitive, you look for different ways, you don't just
[18:16.320 -> 18:21.760] follow the status quo. How important was it to have that, not just the drive, but the
[18:21.760 -> 18:25.760] bravery to go, I'm going to leave and go somewhere else when you were embarking on your career.
[18:25.760 -> 18:30.840] So early in the career, it was really tough. You know, I've got two wonderful children
[18:30.840 -> 18:34.960] who are my absolute pride and joy and, you know, being a working mother, it's not as
[18:34.960 -> 18:40.560] easy to just say, okay, I'm going to commute to London every day. When we lived in Suffolk,
[18:40.560 -> 18:44.480] it wasn't easy at all. And you, you know, you've got to have a supportive environment.
[18:44.480 -> 18:46.640] I had a partner who was just beyond brilliant
[18:46.640 -> 18:50.000] and did his share of the work, but that's never easy.
[18:50.000 -> 18:52.680] And I would never criticize for somebody
[18:52.680 -> 18:55.320] who didn't make that choice, because let me tell you,
[18:55.320 -> 18:58.200] it was one of the hardest things that I had to do.
[18:58.200 -> 19:00.160] But being able to make some of those choices
[19:00.160 -> 19:02.760] and work in London, in central government
[19:02.760 -> 19:07.140] and in the Audit
[19:04.460 -> 19:09.600] Commission was a brilliant kind of
[19:07.140 -> 19:11.980] springboard to my career. And also, you
[19:09.600 -> 19:13.860] know, being encouraged, you know, I've
[19:11.980 -> 19:16.060] always been surrounded by really
[19:13.860 -> 19:17.820] great strong women who have been
[19:16.060 -> 19:20.420] brilliant mentors for me, you know, and
[19:17.820 -> 19:22.380] having them kind of pushing and
[19:20.420 -> 19:24.780] supporting me to the next step was
[19:22.380 -> 19:26.540] fantastic. But one of the comments you
[19:24.780 -> 19:25.840] made earlier in your answer, Debra, was ac yn cefnogi fi i'r nesaf oedd yn hanfodol. Ond un o'r commentau a wnaethwch ei wneud yn y cyfnod yn earlier,
[19:25.840 -> 19:29.640] a oedd e'n siarad am y cyfansoddau rydych wedi'u datblygu nawr
[19:29.640 -> 19:31.960] a efallai nad oeddech chi wedi eu cael 18 mlynedd yn ôl.
[19:31.960 -> 19:35.280] Ac rwy'n mwynhau pa ffordd o'r cynghorau y byddwch chi'n rhoi i rywun
[19:35.280 -> 19:39.080] sy'n gallu bod yn yr un sefydliad rydych chi oedd 18 mlynedd yn ôl.
[19:39.080 -> 19:42.560] Nid oeddent yn dechrau ar eu bod yn cael ambysiyniadau gwahanol.
[19:42.560 -> 19:45.640] Sut wnaethoch chi ddatblygu'r cyfansoddau hwnnw i wneud y penderfyniadau hyderus yna sydd wedi'u pwysleisio arnoch chi? that they have huge ambitions. How have
[19:43.360 -> 19:47.840] you developed that confidence to then make
[19:45.640 -> 19:49.840] those brave decisions that have paid off
[19:47.840 -> 19:52.080] for you? I think it's really important to
[19:49.840 -> 19:53.640] acknowledge that you are only ever as
[19:52.080 -> 19:56.640] good as the people you work with. That's
[19:53.640 -> 19:59.160] true now, more so now than it was at the
[19:56.640 -> 20:02.080] beginning really. But working with great
[19:59.160 -> 20:04.200] people who want the best for you and the
[20:02.080 -> 20:06.280] organisation, the service was really
[20:04.200 -> 20:05.360] empowering actually
[20:05.360 -> 20:12.240] and gave me confidence to move. But also, I don't want people to think that you can achieve this,
[20:12.240 -> 20:17.440] that the level that I've got to without working hard. And when I talk to groups of young people,
[20:17.440 -> 20:23.840] and I regularly kind of talk to young women, because I think that's really important. I talk
[20:23.840 -> 20:25.920] to them about the things they need to do
[20:25.920 -> 20:27.320] to find their way in the world.
[20:27.320 -> 20:31.280] But the most important thing is you've got to work hard.
[20:31.280 -> 20:34.080] I did a degree when I was still breastfeeding my daughter,
[20:34.080 -> 20:36.360] you know, and it was tough and it was really difficult.
[20:36.360 -> 20:38.320] But actually, the benefit of doing that
[20:38.320 -> 20:40.920] has paid itself back in spades, you know,
[20:40.920 -> 20:43.240] doing an economics degree, master's degree,
[20:43.240 -> 20:46.840] and that's been a really good basis for my working career. So, yes, you know, you an economics degree, master's degree. And that's been a really good basis for my working career.
[20:46.840 -> 20:49.440] So yes, you know, you have to be flexible.
[20:49.440 -> 20:51.120] You have to be brave.
[20:51.120 -> 20:52.480] You have to make decisions.
[20:52.480 -> 20:54.360] You have to take the rough with the smooth,
[20:54.360 -> 20:57.600] but actually it all boils down to you working hard
[20:57.600 -> 20:59.440] and wanting to be better.
[20:59.440 -> 21:01.120] Where did that desire come from?
[21:01.120 -> 21:03.920] Were you born with that desire to succeed?
[21:03.920 -> 21:08.160] I'm the only girl with three brothers, so it was always massively competitive in my
[21:08.160 -> 21:14.680] family. Everything was sorted out by a punch or a bit of a scrap. So it was always a bit
[21:14.680 -> 21:19.960] of a competitive... we were a sporty family as well, so we were always pretty competitive.
[21:19.960 -> 21:27.200] But also, do you know, there's that sense of injustice. You know, I played netball and went to Loughborough
[21:27.200 -> 21:29.600] and what a brilliant opportunity that was really.
[21:29.600 -> 21:30.760] But there were lots of people
[21:30.760 -> 21:32.880] that didn't have those opportunities, you know?
[21:32.880 -> 21:35.720] And I remember leaving my county team
[21:35.720 -> 21:39.640] and going off to university and having great opportunities
[21:39.640 -> 21:42.520] and, you know, playing sport in a brilliant environment,
[21:42.520 -> 21:45.280] yet leaving behind, you know, some of my friends
[21:45.280 -> 21:49.760] who would never have had, you know, just didn't have the opportunity to do that. And I felt really
[21:49.760 -> 21:55.920] angry about that, you know, so that that sense of injustice has kind of driven me really to make
[21:55.920 -> 22:00.400] sure that I will do as much as I can to try and address some of that injustice.
[22:00.400 -> 22:05.140] I am interested to talk about injustice because only 25% of chief execs
[22:05.140 -> 22:09.820] in the public sector are female, yet 50% of the workforce are female. So we have a lot
[22:09.820 -> 22:15.420] of business leaders that listen to this podcast. How can we help them to create a more diverse
[22:15.420 -> 22:18.100] workforce and support women in the way they should be?
[22:18.100 -> 22:21.540] Dr. Heather Fletcher – Do you know, it's really, and I've spent a lot of time thinking
[22:21.540 -> 22:25.120] about this and talking about this and talking to women about this.
[22:25.120 -> 22:29.720] And, you know, sometimes women, some of my friends, some of my colleagues will say, you
[22:29.720 -> 22:31.760] know, this is just too hard.
[22:31.760 -> 22:36.540] You know, the environment that we have to work with, the public scrutiny, the treatment
[22:36.540 -> 22:42.560] that we receive both, you know, from the media, from the public, it is just too hard.
[22:42.560 -> 22:45.520] And if we don't need to do it, then we won't. They are
[22:45.520 -> 22:51.240] more willing to walk away, I think, from this than the men will be, really. So that's the
[22:51.240 -> 22:57.720] first thing. The second thing is that not all organizations create conditions where
[22:57.720 -> 23:02.760] women don't feel that they're welcome. And there are a number of organizations, private
[23:02.760 -> 23:05.520] sector organizations, that I work with, which are beyond brilliant.
[23:05.520 -> 23:07.380] You know, PWC are one of those actually.
[23:07.380 -> 23:10.840] Really thoughtful about giving people opportunities,
[23:10.840 -> 23:15.100] valuing people, being thoughtful about the things
[23:15.100 -> 23:19.200] that women feel that they need in order to do their job
[23:19.200 -> 23:23.020] and to aspire and to gain promotion.
[23:23.020 -> 23:26.700] Now, some of that might be childcare, and I'm always reluctant
[23:26.700 -> 23:31.220] to align childcare with women because, you know, if you're a parent, you know, Jake,
[23:31.220 -> 23:35.780] if you've got two kids, I would expect you to take 50% of the responsibility for looking
[23:35.780 -> 23:41.780] after your kids. So to continuously say, you know, childcare is a woman's problem, or the
[23:41.780 -> 23:49.360] payment of childcare is, you know, needs to come out of a woman's salary, it's not right. But equally, having access to good quality child care has
[23:49.360 -> 23:54.120] got to be a really important thing. And then just acknowledging that if women are pregnant,
[23:54.120 -> 23:58.920] then they're not ill. It's not a medical condition and being thoughtful about if they do take
[23:58.920 -> 24:04.040] maternity leave, then they still feel connected to the organisation so that when they come
[24:04.040 -> 24:07.080] back, they don't have that agonising self-doubt about,
[24:07.080 -> 24:08.280] am I still good enough?
[24:08.280 -> 24:10.120] Which a lot of women do.
[24:10.120 -> 24:11.280] So there are things like that,
[24:11.280 -> 24:14.240] that I think companies can do much better.
[24:14.240 -> 24:17.040] And I think COVID, unfortunately,
[24:17.040 -> 24:20.360] did expose really poor working practices.
[24:20.360 -> 24:22.560] And if you look at the amount of women
[24:22.560 -> 24:24.640] who lost their jobs during COVID,
[24:24.640 -> 24:26.440] it was a scandal,
[24:26.440 -> 24:30.240] actually, because it was felt that they were the easiest people to let go.
[24:30.240 -> 24:35.480] So can you describe to us then, in a succinct manner, what the type of culture you would
[24:35.480 -> 24:39.520] want to have and to lead would be?
[24:39.520 -> 24:45.200] An organisation that has a culture that values everybody, an organisation that appreciates what
[24:45.200 -> 24:50.880] people bring to work, but equally an organisation that has high expectations
[24:50.880 -> 24:55.560] and an organisation that places people at the heart of everything that it does,
[24:55.560 -> 25:01.440] both as a workforce but also in terms of what we deliver. You know, our community
[25:01.440 -> 25:03.520] has to be at the heart of everything that we do.
[25:03.520 -> 25:08.400] So how would you rate your current culture then against that benchmark?
[25:08.400 -> 25:09.520] We're not there yet.
[25:09.520 -> 25:11.480] There is still a job to be done.
[25:11.480 -> 25:16.640] And I mean, I've been in the organisation just over a year now, and we're better, but
[25:16.640 -> 25:17.640] we're not good enough.
[25:17.640 -> 25:26.960] I would like to think that the Commonwealth Games has given the organisation huge confidence. People said four years ago,
[25:26.960 -> 25:31.880] Birmingham City Council will never pull this off. And we have. It's been delivered in time
[25:31.880 -> 25:37.840] and also in budget, which is phenomenal. And the way in which the City Council has been
[25:37.840 -> 25:42.920] able to deliver what will be the best Commonwealth Games ever is because everybody started from
[25:42.920 -> 25:48.280] the right place. Everybody was involved in a conversation about what do we want for these
[25:48.280 -> 25:49.920] Commonwealth games, but more importantly,
[25:49.920 -> 25:52.800] what do we want for the city from these Commonwealth games?
[25:53.080 -> 25:55.160] Somebody that I worked with, it was Mo Mowlan.
[25:55.200 -> 25:59.520] She was the most phenomenal woman. And I can always remember her saying to me,
[25:59.520 -> 26:01.480] you know, Debbie, it doesn't matter how important you are.
[26:01.760 -> 26:08.560] It's really important that you know the names of the people that staff the reception, who clean your bins, who clean your toilets, who answer
[26:08.560 -> 26:11.200] your phone, because they are the people that will keep you where you are.
[26:11.200 -> 26:15.240] And how have you squared off the fact that obviously that then increases the pressure
[26:15.240 -> 26:19.960] on you, doesn't it? Because it's amazing that you are the lady charged with running the
[26:19.960 -> 26:23.720] city during the Commonwealth Games, but then in five years' time, everyone will be going,
[26:23.720 -> 26:28.000] well, Deborah was in charge when the Commonwealth Games happened, so what's the legacy? That's the
[26:28.000 -> 26:33.200] that's the kind of next, next stage, you know, we can all see you're delivering an amazing Commonwealth Games.
[26:33.200 -> 26:37.520] So being able to demonstrate to residents that it's money well spent is really, really important,
[26:37.520 -> 26:47.440] and we do that through legacy. We do that by ensuring that local people have the opportunity to take advantage of what's going on at the moment,
[26:47.440 -> 26:53.920] but equally we can deliver community-based sports, we can deliver community-based culture.
[26:53.920 -> 27:00.480] We want to make sure that we continue to invest in community-based cultural programmes,
[27:00.480 -> 27:06.000] so we've got lots of local groups, choirs, bands, dance groups.
[27:06.000 -> 27:09.000] We want to make sure that they continue to kind of develop that.
[27:09.000 -> 27:12.000] And then of course, we've got community-based sports as well.
[27:12.000 -> 27:19.000] And, you know, one of the things that gave me the greatest pleasure was seeing some little Muslim girls with boxing gloves,
[27:19.000 -> 27:22.000] having a go at boxing and saying, we love this.
[27:22.000 -> 27:25.120] And, you know, mummy, can I, can I join a
[27:25.120 -> 27:30.160] club and can I continue to box? How brilliant is that? And that's the kind of stuff that
[27:30.160 -> 27:33.600] I want to see as part of the legacy of this. And then of course, there's the business side
[27:33.600 -> 27:39.440] and you know, we've got lots of visitors from Commonwealth countries, investors that
[27:39.440 -> 27:43.280] are taking the opportunity to come and visit the city. And again, we need to land that
[27:43.280 -> 27:46.220] investment into the city as part of our legacy.
[27:46.220 -> 27:50.100] I love all that stuff, that is the legacy right there. Can I go back to when you
[27:50.100 -> 27:53.520] mentioned earlier on about keeping fit because it kind of ties into the
[27:53.520 -> 27:56.320] Commonwealth Games, I think we don't have conversations often enough on high
[27:56.320 -> 27:59.920] performance with people like you leaders, we talk all about your work ethic and
[27:59.920 -> 28:03.200] the hours in the office and the graft and the hard work and I think sometimes
[28:03.200 -> 28:07.960] we can leave people not realising that you need time for yourself as well. How do
[28:07.960 -> 28:11.560] you get that balance right? I'm not the greatest example of work-life balance
[28:11.560 -> 28:15.480] although I do I do understand it's really really important and I know that
[28:15.480 -> 28:20.760] if I'm if I'm tired I'm not on my game then I'm not doing my job well enough. So
[28:20.760 -> 28:25.520] I box actually which is why it gave me so much pleasure to see these little
[28:25.520 -> 28:33.280] girls. So I've got a boxing instructor, ex-professional boxer, and two mornings a week at six o'clock
[28:33.280 -> 28:39.020] we box. I don't do competitive, I'm too old for that, but I can't tell you how therapeutic
[28:39.020 -> 28:45.360] it is to just punch the shit out of the pads or a bag. It's great mentally
[28:45.360 -> 28:49.360] as well as physically, a physical exercise as well. I love it, I absolutely
[28:49.360 -> 28:52.240] love it, but it also gives me a sense of confidence as well.
[28:52.240 -> 28:57.280] Now I come from a boxing background, so what metaphors would you draw from boxing
[28:57.280 -> 29:02.760] that you apply to being the Chief Exec? You know, I see it as a game of 3D chess,
[29:02.760 -> 29:05.280] you know, that a lot of it is about anticipating
[29:05.280 -> 29:06.280] the next move.
[29:06.280 -> 29:10.440] And a lot of that as well is trying to understand people's motivations.
[29:10.440 -> 29:12.440] You know, do they want to smack me?
[29:12.440 -> 29:14.880] Do they want to set me up to fail?
[29:14.880 -> 29:18.440] And that sounds really negative, and my whole life is around anticipating people trying
[29:18.440 -> 29:19.440] to set me up to fail.
[29:19.440 -> 29:21.040] But, you know, it is about that.
[29:21.040 -> 29:23.280] It is, are they drawing me in for something?
[29:23.280 -> 29:27.200] And I've got to be really thoughtful about that. It is, are they drawing me in for something? And I've got to be really thoughtful about that. But it is about anticipation.
[29:27.200 -> 29:29.240] It's about understanding motivation.
[29:29.240 -> 29:33.160] And it's about being one step ahead, I guess.
[29:33.160 -> 29:35.520] And you say that you are not the best example
[29:35.520 -> 29:36.880] of getting work-life balance right.
[29:36.880 -> 29:37.920] I think sometimes the people
[29:37.920 -> 29:39.600] who haven't necessarily got it right
[29:39.600 -> 29:41.160] are the best ones to give us advice.
[29:41.160 -> 29:42.600] So what advice would you give
[29:42.600 -> 29:44.400] to someone maybe starting out on their career
[29:44.400 -> 29:47.000] to get that part of life right?
[29:47.000 -> 29:51.040] You have to understand the culture of the organisation. There'll be some organisations
[29:51.040 -> 29:55.580] that are really embracing of people taking time off and, and it's all, it's all messed
[29:55.580 -> 29:59.880] up now, isn't it? It's all messed up with COVID and people working from home. And it's
[29:59.880 -> 30:04.400] not a similar environment to the one that I started working really. But even if you're
[30:04.400 -> 30:08.220] working from home, I think it's really important for you to demonstrate that you're doing your
[30:08.220 -> 30:12.220] job. But equally, when I was working from home at the height of COVID, you know, for
[30:12.220 -> 30:17.900] some reason I found myself working more hours working from home than I did in the office.
[30:17.900 -> 30:22.780] So I did have to be quite purposeful in saying, you know, that I will have breaks because
[30:22.780 -> 30:29.480] literally in my Fitbit, you know, I'd be doing like 800 steps a day but equally what I say to parents as well
[30:29.480 -> 30:32.400] you know if you want to take a break at 3 o'clock and put your kids up from
[30:32.400 -> 30:36.120] school and then connect again at 8 o'clock when they when they've gone to
[30:36.120 -> 30:39.480] bed and work for another couple of hours that's that's fine you know if that's
[30:39.480 -> 30:43.760] the easiest way for you to do your job then that's not a problem but I don't
[30:43.760 -> 30:48.280] expect you to work through through till 8'clock at night. That's just not acceptable.
[30:48.280 -> 30:50.720] Because I won't get the best out of them.
[30:50.720 -> 30:53.920] Can I ask you a question then that's a little bit more personal?
[30:53.920 -> 30:57.480] It's about your relationship with Geoff, your husband, sorry.
[30:57.480 -> 30:59.000] I wondered which one you were referring to.
[30:59.000 -> 31:03.760] Yeah, sorry. Yeah, not that other Geoff. Your husband, Geoff.
[31:03.760 -> 31:08.800] Like the story that took time for me was when he succeeded you as Chief Exec at St Edmundsbury Council.
[31:08.800 -> 31:16.000] I'm just fascinated about how you handled that transition period and linking it to that work-life balance question.
[31:16.000 -> 31:27.120] Jake asked, how did you switch off from work when you knew all the same characters in the same environments. I would say it took us a month to come to the conclusion that
[31:27.120 -> 31:31.280] that we should never ever ever talk about work after he got that job.
[31:31.280 -> 31:33.920] It was just madness because we're very different people, we've got very
[31:33.920 -> 31:38.960] different leadership styles and different views on the world and
[31:38.960 -> 31:41.680] you know he'd kind of come home and talk to me about what he'd done and I'd be
[31:41.680 -> 31:44.080] saying what have you done that for and he'd be like saying well
[31:44.080 -> 31:47.440] we just came to a conclusion. It wouldn't work if
[31:47.440 -> 31:53.280] we, if we talked about the job in that way. But after having said that, having somebody
[31:53.280 -> 31:58.840] who appreciates and understands the world that I work in has been profoundly helpful
[31:58.840 -> 31:59.840] and supportive.
[31:59.840 -> 32:03.800] Because that was what I was going to ask you like, so how do you manage that relationship
[32:03.800 -> 32:05.040] where you can actually
[32:10.720 -> 32:11.240] help and guide and mentor each other without getting dragged into the detail and
[32:13.240 -> 32:17.580] failing to switch off? I think because the world we operate in is quite tricksy and what I would say is
[32:17.900 -> 32:20.220] my husband doesn't work in local government anymore
[32:20.220 -> 32:24.600] but he still appreciates the politics both with a big and a small P. And it is really helpful
[32:27.600 -> 32:32.160] at times to kind of say I'm really troubled by this, can I just talk about it? You know, and nine times out of ten, he doesn't say, oh
[32:32.160 -> 32:35.160] yeah, you're doing it really well. He'll challenge me and ask me probing
[32:35.160 -> 32:39.440] questions and help me come to a different conclusion, which is profoundly
[32:39.440 -> 32:44.080] helpful. But what I would also say is I've got a coach as well, which he's very
[32:44.080 -> 32:45.600] challenging of me actually, which is what I would also say is I've got a coach as well, which he's very challenging of me actually
[32:45.600 -> 32:52.280] Which is what what I want and what's the brief with that coach? Is it like what brief do you give him to coach?
[32:52.280 -> 32:54.980] Yeah to make me better as a chief exec
[32:55.240 -> 33:00.280] Actually, I'll tell you that what you really helpful for our listeners to this is a couple of the things you've discussed with him
[33:00.280 -> 33:07.040] That it might be worth people asking the same question of themselves that made you go, oh I'd never even considered that before.
[33:07.040 -> 33:11.240] That's really tricky because we talk about such a lot of things really. I think it's
[33:11.240 -> 33:19.920] about how I deal with tricksy people issues I think and then how I navigate
[33:19.920 -> 33:26.560] my way through central government as well. He just continuously asks me, so why have you
[33:26.560 -> 33:30.120] done that? Why do you think that? Why do you think that's the best course of action? There
[33:30.120 -> 33:34.360] have been a couple of occasions where he's given me advice and guidance, which has been
[33:34.360 -> 33:39.920] invaluable really, but he's always made me come to the right conclusion rather than giving
[33:39.920 -> 33:50.720] me the answer. And I think that's a sign of a really good coach that asks the questions why, challenges some of your perceptions and leads you to a place
[33:50.720 -> 33:55.040] where there's a light bulb moment and you say, I get it now, yeah I understand.
[33:55.040 -> 33:59.000] Can you give us an example of one of those light bulb moments? What was a
[33:59.000 -> 34:03.600] light bulb moment for you that said, I've been doing it one way and I now
[34:03.600 -> 34:05.360] realize that there's a different way.
[34:05.360 -> 34:11.640] So one of the things he said to me was when I was being quite reticent about making a decision,
[34:11.640 -> 34:15.800] because it was a big decision, I said, oh, I'm not, I'm not sure I'll be able to carry this
[34:15.800 -> 34:19.960] through. And, you know, he kind of said to me, Deborah, you know, listening to what you're
[34:19.960 -> 34:27.880] saying and appreciating and understanding the context, I'm led to believe that the most powerful person in the room is the person that's got
[34:27.880 -> 34:31.680] nothing to lose and that's you, and you're not seeing the power and
[34:31.680 -> 34:34.840] influence that you've got and you're not using it properly. And that was a
[34:34.840 -> 34:37.880] lightbulb moment, I thought, God, yeah, he's right. What's the worst that could happen?
[34:37.880 -> 34:42.840] I never understood that until he said it to me and explained it to me in that way.
[34:42.840 -> 34:45.840] That's really helpful. We've reached the point, Debra,
[34:45.840 -> 34:48.880] where we're going to bring you our quickfire questions.
[34:48.880 -> 34:50.640] And I know your son listens to the podcast.
[34:50.640 -> 34:51.460] What's his name?
[34:51.460 -> 34:52.300] Jordan.
[34:52.300 -> 34:53.760] Jordan, shout out for Jordan at this point.
[34:53.760 -> 34:55.040] He'll know what's coming your way.
[34:55.040 -> 34:56.440] Let's see how your mum goes.
[34:56.440 -> 34:59.160] Now, I also need to mention my daughter, who's India,
[34:59.160 -> 35:01.920] because there will be hell on if I mention
[35:01.920 -> 35:03.120] Jordan and not India.
[35:03.120 -> 35:08.560] Is India also a high-performance listener? Yes, she is, actually. Well, let's see what they make of these then and whether they agree
[35:08.560 -> 35:13.400] with them. Your three non-negotiable behaviours, Debra, that you and the people around you
[35:13.400 -> 35:19.160] need to buy into. Be kind and thoughtful, listen and put stuff in perspective. Don't
[35:19.160 -> 35:24.280] go into, you know, flappy mode. Chill your beans for 10 seconds and think things through.
[35:24.280 -> 35:27.080] I love that. I think chill your beans should be the title of this episode,
[35:27.080 -> 35:31.320] Damien. It should be. What advice would you give to a teenage Debra, just starting out?
[35:31.320 -> 35:36.680] You know, one of the biggest regrets I've got is that I had one of the best opportunities ever
[35:36.680 -> 35:42.160] to be a world-class netball player and I didn't take it because I just wanted to play about and
[35:42.160 -> 35:46.160] have a good time and, you know and just enjoy university life, really.
[35:46.160 -> 35:49.600] So my advice to the 18-year-old me is
[35:49.600 -> 35:53.280] just understand and appreciate what you've got at the time
[35:53.280 -> 35:56.320] and take advantage of it and see it for what it is
[35:56.320 -> 35:58.240] rather than mess about.
[35:58.240 -> 36:00.520] Make mistakes that you can sort and resolve,
[36:00.520 -> 36:02.920] but don't make mistakes where you have massive regrets.
[36:02.920 -> 36:04.160] You know, it's difficult, isn't it,
[36:04.160 -> 36:07.040] when you're a teenager, to appreciate that. What is your
[36:07.040 -> 36:10.600] biggest strength and what do you think is your greatest weakness? I think I'm
[36:10.600 -> 36:13.800] honest I think I'm probably too honest for my own good really but I do think
[36:13.800 -> 36:17.940] that's a strength and also understanding that feeling you know I talk about the
[36:17.940 -> 36:21.000] heartbeat and I don't say that glibly and what I mean by that is you
[36:21.000 -> 36:28.940] know I can't do my job if I don't understand how it feels and both at an organizational level at a place level really. So being prepared to
[36:28.940 -> 36:33.860] listen and and get immersed and involved and you know hear what people are
[36:33.860 -> 36:39.380] saying. I think that's a strength. And my biggest weakness, I think I can be a
[36:39.380 -> 36:43.980] bit too impatient. Yeah, impatience I think is a weakness. I'm less impatient
[36:43.980 -> 36:47.520] than I was. I think I'm a bit more chilled than I think is a weakness. I'm less impatient than I was.
[36:44.360 -> 36:49.360] I think I'm a bit more chilled than I
[36:47.520 -> 36:51.840] used to be, but yeah I can be very
[36:49.360 -> 36:54.440] impatient, which is not great. Where were
[36:51.840 -> 36:57.640] you, where are you and where are you going?
[36:54.440 -> 36:59.520] I think I've been in a good place and
[36:57.640 -> 37:01.440] I've been in a good place because I've
[36:59.520 -> 37:03.160] been surrounded by good people. I've
[37:01.440 -> 37:05.400] benefited from that and I've been very
[37:03.160 -> 37:09.000] fortunate. Where am I? I'm in a really exciting place and it well it's it's exciting and terrifying
[37:09.000 -> 37:12.960] in equal measure I think but on balance I'm in a good place and it's really
[37:12.960 -> 37:17.120] exciting and post Commonwealth you know it feels like we're on a crest of a wave
[37:17.120 -> 37:21.880] here and you know we're really shifting the dial on a whole range of things both
[37:21.880 -> 37:28.080] at an organizational level, a perception level, a reputational level, and a delivery level.
[37:28.080 -> 37:29.940] So it's really, really exciting,
[37:29.940 -> 37:34.100] but it's not fragile, but we've got to keep our foot
[37:34.100 -> 37:36.620] on the accelerator, and that's exhilarating
[37:36.620 -> 37:38.100] and slightly terrifying.
[37:38.100 -> 37:40.080] And where do I want to be?
[37:40.080 -> 37:43.400] I want to be in a place where I look back and say,
[37:43.400 -> 37:44.940] yeah, I made a difference.
[37:44.940 -> 37:45.680] Lovely.
[37:45.680 -> 37:49.880] And your one final message to our listeners to this podcast,
[37:49.880 -> 37:52.120] your one final golden rule
[37:52.120 -> 37:53.680] for living a high performance life
[37:53.680 -> 37:55.640] after all the things you've learned
[37:55.640 -> 37:57.520] over your 18 years as chief exec
[37:57.520 -> 37:58.880] and the years before that.
[37:58.880 -> 38:00.840] Don't settle for less than the best.
[38:00.840 -> 38:02.000] Brilliant.
[38:02.000 -> 38:03.200] It's a lovely way to end.
[38:03.200 -> 38:04.320] Deborah, thank you so much
[38:04.320 -> 38:07.880] for giving us your time on this episode. You know what? You've reminded me of my dad quite a lot on
[38:07.880 -> 38:13.320] this because my dad, oh my God, in the nicest possible way, let me explain. Let me explain.
[38:13.320 -> 38:18.640] Because he worked in the public sector. And I always just sort of, I spent my teenage
[38:18.640 -> 38:21.880] years just thinking, yeah, but dad, you could, you know, you could leave the public sector,
[38:21.880 -> 38:27.040] go in the private sector and earn loads more money or do other things and stop worrying about trying to help people and change
[38:27.040 -> 38:30.320] the world all the time. And I wish I'd spent more of my time when I was younger saying,
[38:30.320 -> 38:33.920] Dad, I'm so proud of you for wanting to change the world and wanting to make things better.
[38:33.920 -> 38:37.940] And I think, you know, let me say that to you, without people like you, you could easily
[38:37.940 -> 38:42.440] go and quadruple your salary, work in the private sector and, you know, buy a bigger
[38:42.440 -> 38:47.400] house or whatever you do with that money. But you clearly have a real deep desire to make the world a better place and it
[38:47.400 -> 38:53.360] shines through so well done. It's been a pleasure to spend time with you and I've
[38:53.360 -> 38:58.600] got a job that is a real privilege actually so I'm blessed but thank you
[38:58.600 -> 39:02.120] for your time it's been great fun.
[39:03.720 -> 39:05.000] Damien. Jake.
[39:05.000 -> 39:06.000] What did you think?
[39:06.000 -> 39:13.240] I loved it. I loved the energy. I loved the sense of purpose. And I just love some of
[39:13.240 -> 39:15.000] the lessons that she shared with us.
[39:15.000 -> 39:19.520] I've really enjoyed these CEO conversations because we're talking to people who are not
[39:19.520 -> 39:23.160] just responsible for themselves. And quite often on this podcast, we talk to people responsible
[39:23.160 -> 39:29.520] for themselves, right? You know, athletes is a prime example or entrepreneurs, you know, the top of a business,
[39:30.160 -> 39:34.400] whereas she's responsible for an entire organisation, a really diverse organisation,
[39:34.400 -> 39:39.760] quite a challenging organisation. So getting that job right is a really, really big ask, isn't it?
[39:39.760 -> 39:41.600] Steve Martin
[39:41.600 -> 39:46.540] Yeah, that phrase that she shared with us really resonated when she said she saw her
[39:46.540 -> 39:51.960] job as creating an environment where magic can happen. And I think that's what so many
[39:51.960 -> 39:57.440] great leaders seem to understand. It's about focusing on that message. We keep coming back
[39:57.440 -> 40:03.100] to one here, creating a culture where people feel that they can liberate it to be themselves.
[40:03.100 -> 40:06.480] And that's where the real value starts to
[40:06.480 -> 40:07.480] become evident.
[40:07.480 -> 40:13.880] I think there was also a real sense from Deborah of how much she's changed over the years and
[40:13.880 -> 40:18.220] that there would have been a very different conversation with Deborah 18 years ago when
[40:18.220 -> 40:21.360] she started out as a chief exec and I think there's that's also a good lesson for people
[40:21.360 -> 40:30.000] listening to this you know if they're 21, 22 or even 31 or 32 and they hear that kind of conversation, they hear the clarity that Debra shares and then
[40:30.000 -> 40:34.640] they think, why am I, why don't I feel like that, why am I not in that place? You know,
[40:34.640 -> 40:37.200] things take time, some of the best things take a really long time.
[40:37.200 -> 40:40.800] Karl Yeah, one of my favourite writers is Adam Grant,
[40:40.800 -> 40:45.920] who talks about the idea of the sign of an intelligent mind is your ability to change that Adam Grant sy'n siarad am y syniad o'r sylwad o ddewis ddewis ddewis yw eich gallu i newid y ddewis,
[40:45.920 -> 40:49.760] i weithio yn ystod gweithio gyda ffyrdd o ffyrdd, ystod y prif ddewis, ystod y prif ddewis,
[40:49.760 -> 40:53.680] ac i wneud ymdrechion gwahanol y byddwch wedi'u wneud, ac rwy'n credu
[40:53.680 -> 40:57.440] mai dyna oedd un o'r cyfleau da iawn o Debra o siarad o'r dechrau i fod yn
[40:57.440 -> 41:02.560] ymwneudydd cyfnodol 18 mlynedd yn ôl, a sut y byddai hi'n ddewis ddewis yn wahanol o'r amser hwnnw,
[41:02.560 -> 41:06.440] ond yn amlwg nad yw hynny'n sylwad o ddewis, mae'n sylwad o ddewis a phenodol. she'd be a very different leader then than she was now. But surely that's not a sign of weakness,
[41:06.440 -> 41:08.720] it's a sign of intelligence and strength.
[41:08.720 -> 41:10.880] Really good, enjoyed it mate.
[41:10.880 -> 41:12.560] Yeah, I did too, thanks Jake.
[41:14.520 -> 41:16.640] Well, I really hope that you enjoyed that episode.
[41:16.640 -> 41:18.880] As always, huge thanks to PWC
[41:18.880 -> 41:22.280] for helping to bring these CEO conversations to life.
[41:22.280 -> 41:23.360] Thank you very much for Deborah
[41:23.360 -> 41:25.800] for sharing all that incredible insight about life,
[41:25.800 -> 41:27.500] and about work, and about family,
[41:27.500 -> 41:28.800] and about non-negotiables.
[41:28.800 -> 41:30.400] I thought it was fantastic.
[41:30.400 -> 41:32.300] But the biggest thanks of all goes to you
[41:32.300 -> 41:35.600] for growing and sharing this podcast among your community.
[41:35.600 -> 41:37.600] Please continue to spread the learnings
[41:37.600 -> 41:38.800] you're taking from this series.
[41:38.800 -> 41:40.300] If you can do me one thing,
[41:40.300 -> 41:42.300] it would just be to hit the follow button
[41:42.300 -> 41:44.300] wherever you're listening to this podcast.
[41:44.300 -> 41:50.000] And don't forget, you can find out more about us at thehighperformancepodcast.com.
[41:50.000 -> 41:52.000] Thanks to the whole team for their hard work.
[41:52.000 -> 41:53.000] Thanks to you for your support.
[41:53.000 -> 41:55.000] Remember, there is no secret.
[41:55.000 -> 41:56.000] It is all there for you.
[41:56.000 -> 41:58.000] So chase world-class basics.
[41:58.000 -> 42:00.000] Don't get high on your own supply.
[42:00.000 -> 42:02.000] Remain humble, curious and empathetic.
[42:02.000 -> None] And we'll see you very soon. you