E148 - Ben Towers, leading young entrepreneur: Age is just a number

Ben Towers is co-founder of Happl, a platform with a mission to connect employees and tackle ill-mental health. Ben started his first company at the age of 11, after finishing school for the day he would spend the evening working to improve his business. In this episode Ben shares an insight to his mindset at such a young age and how parents can encourage and affirm their children’s goals. His parents set open challenges and gave him the freedom to explore, whilst setting clear boundaries. 

Ben shares why it is important to have a diverse education and children should be open to multiple ways of learning. They discuss the power of networking and making connections, improving your mindset and mental health…

This bonus episode is in partnership with Dell Technologies & Microsoft.

Search Dell Podference or visit dell.co.uk/Podference to find out more

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

### Podcast Episode Summary: Ben Towers' Entrepreneurial Journey and Insights on High Performance

**Guest: Ben Towers, Co-founder of Happel**

**Topics Discussed:**

* **Definition of High Performance:** For Ben, high performance is waking up every day feeling at his optimum and having a routine that allows him to be mentally free and focused throughout the day.

* **Morning Routine:** Ben's mornings are dedicated to tasks that don't require much creative thinking, such as emails, meetings, and administrative duties. As the day progresses, he finds himself becoming more creative and prefers to engage in activities that require less desk work.

* **Starting a Business at a Young Age:** Ben started his first business at the age of 11, fueled by a desire to make money and a love for learning online. His parents supported his entrepreneurial spirit by setting open challenges and giving him the freedom to explore, while also setting clear boundaries.

* **Importance of a Diverse Education:** Ben emphasizes the value of having a diverse education and being open to multiple ways of learning. He believes that children should be encouraged to explore different learning methods to find what works best for them.

* **Networking and Making Connections:** Ben highlights the power of networking and making connections, especially for young entrepreneurs. He encourages individuals to step out of their comfort zones and attend networking events to meet potential mentors, collaborators, and clients.

* **Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome:** Ben acknowledges experiencing self-doubt and imposter syndrome as his company grew and gained media attention. He emphasizes the importance of having a support network of mentors and trusted individuals who can offer guidance and reassurance during challenging times.

* **Recruiting Mentors and Colleagues:** Ben discusses the importance of recruiting mentors who can provide valuable advice and guidance, as well as the challenges of hiring employees as a young entrepreneur. He emphasizes the need for authenticity and transparency when building a team.

* **Dealing with Double Standards and Cynicism:** Ben shares his experience of facing double standards and cynicism due to his young age. He highlights the importance of using such experiences as fuel to drive success and move forward.

* **Growth of His Business and Working with Notable Clients:** Ben's business experienced significant growth after he moved into an office and began employing himself as an apprentice. He won government contracts and worked with notable clients, such as Pot Noodle and the royal family.

* **Importance of Diversity in Marketing:** Ben emphasizes the importance of diversity in marketing and the effectiveness of having young people involved in campaigns that target their peers.

**Overall Message:**

Ben Towers' entrepreneurial journey and insights on high performance offer valuable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs and individuals seeking to achieve high levels of success. His emphasis on authenticity, resilience, and the power of networking and diverse education provides a roadmap for those looking to make a positive impact in their chosen fields.

**Summary of the Podcast Episode**

The podcast episode features Ben Towers, co-founder of Happl, a platform aiming to connect employees and tackle mental health issues. Ben started his entrepreneurial journey at the young age of 11, working on his business after school hours. He emphasizes the importance of a diverse education and encouraging multiple learning methods.

**Key Points Discussed:**

- **Diverse Education:** Ben stresses the significance of diverse educational methods to accommodate different learning styles. He believes that students should be exposed to various teaching approaches to discover their optimal learning method.

- **Networking and Connections:** Ben highlights the power of networking and making connections. He shares how attending events and speaking engagements helped him gain credibility and secure valuable clients.

- **Mental Health and Well-being:** Ben emphasizes the importance of prioritizing mental health, especially for entrepreneurs who often face immense pressure and stress. He shares strategies such as float tank therapy and regular therapy sessions to manage his mental well-being.

- **Self-awareness and Reflection:** Ben discusses the importance of self-awareness and reflection in personal and professional growth. He suggests setting time limits for self-reflection to prevent dwelling on negative thoughts.

- **Therapy and Its Benefits:** Ben advocates for therapy as a tool for personal growth and well-being. He highlights how therapy can help individuals process their thoughts, emotions, and experiences, leading to a sense of peace and freedom.

- **Empathy in Leadership:** Ben emphasizes the significance of empathy in leadership. He shares how asking the question, "How does that make other people feel?" has helped him become a more compassionate and effective leader.

- **Education System and Learning Styles:** Ben critiques the current education system for its lack of diversity in teaching methods. He believes that schools should focus on identifying and nurturing each student's unique learning style to optimize their potential.

- **Teachers' Role in Diverse Learning:** Ben acknowledges the limitations teachers face within the current education system. However, he encourages teachers to consciously incorporate different teaching methods and engage students in reflecting on their learning experiences.

- **Discovering Passions:** Ben reflects on his entrepreneurial journey and acknowledges that not all aspects of business are equally enjoyable. He suggests identifying and prioritizing tasks that spark passion and performing less enjoyable tasks during times of peak productivity.

In conclusion, the podcast episode delves into Ben Towers' entrepreneurial journey, emphasizing the importance of diverse education, networking, mental health, self-awareness, therapy, empathy in leadership, and the need for a more flexible education system that caters to different learning styles.

**Navigating the Entrepreneurial Journey: Insights from Ben Towers, Co-Founder of Happl**

In this captivating podcast episode, Ben Towers, co-founder of Happl, shares his unique entrepreneurial journey and offers valuable insights on mental health, diverse education, networking, and achieving high performance.

**Embracing a Growth Mindset:**

From a young age, Ben demonstrated an unwavering growth mindset, constantly questioning norms and seeking opportunities for improvement. His parents played a crucial role in encouraging his curiosity and providing him with the freedom to explore his passions.

**The Importance of Diverse Education:**

Ben emphasizes the significance of a diverse education, encouraging individuals to be open to multiple ways of learning. He believes that exposure to various perspectives and experiences fosters creativity and problem-solving skills.

**The Power of Networking:**

Ben highlights the importance of networking and building connections, viewing it as a means to gain knowledge, expand opportunities, and find support. He encourages individuals to actively seek out mentors and peers who can provide guidance and inspiration.

**Improving Mental Health and Well-being:**

Ben stresses the importance of mental health and well-being in achieving high performance. He emphasizes the need for self-awareness, reflection, and seeking support when needed. He shares his personal experience with mental health challenges and the strategies he employs to maintain a healthy mindset.

**The Art of Questioning and Rethinking:**

Ben's entrepreneurial journey is characterized by a relentless pursuit of questioning and rethinking. He challenges conventional wisdom and seeks to find innovative solutions to problems. He encourages individuals to embrace curiosity and to continually seek better ways of doing things.

**Accepting Failure as a Learning Opportunity:**

Ben acknowledges that failure is an inevitable part of the entrepreneurial journey. He emphasizes the importance of learning from failures and using them as opportunities for growth and improvement. He shares his own experiences with failure and the strategies he employs to overcome setbacks.

**The Significance of Legacy:**

Ben reflects on the concept of legacy, expressing his desire to leave a positive impact on the world. He believes that by sharing his experiences and helping others overcome challenges, he can create a lasting legacy that extends beyond his own achievements.

**The Golden Rule for High Performance:**

Ben's golden rule for living a high-performance life is the practice of pausing and reflecting. He emphasizes the need for dedicated time to reflect on one's actions, thoughts, and emotions. This reflective practice allows individuals to gain clarity, learn from experiences, and make informed decisions.

**Key Takeaways:**

- Embrace a growth mindset and constantly seek opportunities for improvement.
- Value diverse education and be open to multiple ways of learning.
- Actively build connections and seek out mentors and peers.
- Prioritize mental health and well-being as essential components of high performance.
- Question conventional wisdom and strive for innovative solutions.
- View failures as learning opportunities and use them for growth.
- Create a positive legacy by sharing your experiences and helping others.
- Dedicate time for reflection to gain clarity and make informed decisions.

Ben Towers' entrepreneurial journey serves as an inspiration, demonstrating the power of curiosity, resilience, and a relentless pursuit of excellence. His insights on mental health, diverse education, networking, and high performance provide valuable lessons for individuals seeking to thrive in their personal and professional lives.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.600] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and this is High Performance, our conversation for you every
[00:05.600 -> 00:11.160] week that reminds you that it's within your ambition, your purpose, your story.
[00:11.160 -> 00:14.720] We just help you unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest
[00:14.720 -> 00:17.400] performers into your life lessons.
[00:17.400 -> 00:23.680] So right now allow myself and Professor Damian Hughes to speak to a really fascinating young
[00:23.680 -> 00:24.680] man.
[00:24.680 -> 00:26.000] Welcome to a special bonus
[00:26.000 -> 00:29.960] episode in partnership with Dell Technologies and Microsoft. Now before we
[00:29.960 -> 00:35.040] get going Dell have a UK based podcast conference called Podference. It's
[00:35.040 -> 00:38.840] absolutely brilliant a place to share advice and inspiration to support all
[00:38.840 -> 00:42.400] kinds of small businesses. Dell is a trusted advisor for small businesses
[00:42.400 -> 00:45.000] they offer dedicated technology and solutions
[00:45.000 -> 00:47.200] so you can find the right technology and advice
[00:47.200 -> 00:49.900] to help your business grow and succeed.
[00:49.900 -> 00:52.200] And today, we're gonna talk about entrepreneurship.
[00:52.200 -> 00:54.000] We're gonna talk about thinking differently
[00:54.000 -> 00:55.900] allows you to do things differently.
[00:55.900 -> 00:58.900] We're gonna talk about refusing to take no for an answer
[00:58.900 -> 01:01.800] and instead, asking why.
[01:01.800 -> 01:03.400] We're about to speak to a young man
[01:03.400 -> 01:06.860] who was described by the Sunday Times as one of the most influential
[01:07.260 -> 01:13.460] Teenagers on the planet when he was just 16. He started his first business aged 11
[01:13.700 -> 01:16.780] He's a young guy that believes in doing things differently. He loves creating
[01:17.700 -> 01:26.800] Disruptive startups. He's now only in his early 20s, but he's now the co-founder of a business called Happel.
[01:26.800 -> 01:29.560] And I'm personally so excited to share this podcast with him.
[01:29.560 -> 01:33.760] I think that he's the perfect guest, actually, not just because of the things he's done as
[01:33.760 -> 01:38.120] a young businessman, but also I think it's all about the age at which he decided to do
[01:38.120 -> 01:43.960] these things and the fact that he was brave enough and ambitious enough at school to still
[01:43.960 -> 01:45.680] be an entrepreneur.
[01:45.680 -> 01:48.840] I think it takes an incredible amount of self-belief.
[01:48.840 -> 01:52.200] This is what's coming your way on today's episode
[01:52.200 -> 01:54.480] of the High Performance Podcast.
[01:54.480 -> 01:57.440] I was 16, did my last GCSE exams.
[01:57.440 -> 01:59.880] I remember it was on the first day of my last exam,
[01:59.880 -> 02:01.560] that Monday, got my first office.
[02:01.560 -> 02:02.960] And I remember saying to my dad,
[02:02.960 -> 02:04.440] in the back of his car, get anything in.
[02:04.440 -> 02:09.040] I was like, right, now is the time the time. I feel like I'd almost been released
[02:09.040 -> 02:12.800] in like a weird way, you know what, the day-to-day of school had now been said, actually that's
[02:12.800 -> 02:17.600] now finished, off you go. I think one thing I've seen quite a lot about the next generation
[02:17.600 -> 02:23.000] of entrepreneurs is they go entrepreneur first and go, how do I make money? And they don't
[02:23.000 -> 02:25.680] think about here's a passion I genuinely love, how can I make money? And I don't think about here's a passion that I genuinely love.
[02:26.000 -> 02:30.360] How can I commercialize that in the business hierarchy or map?
[02:30.400 -> 02:33.840] You're at the top where you can't go to your colleague and go off at a really
[02:33.840 -> 02:36.960] stressful day because people are looking to you to be that constant
[02:36.960 -> 02:38.320] metronome in the business.
[02:38.800 -> 02:43.640] So I then had to really invest in my mental health and find ways to help me
[02:44.080 -> 02:47.080] then talk or, you know or process things and so on.
[02:48.560 -> 02:55.480] This is a fascinating conversation. Please remember this podcast, although it's called high performance, it's not about high achievement or high success.
[02:55.840 -> 03:01.520] It's about high happiness, high self-worth, about taking you closer to a life of fulfillment,
[03:02.160 -> 03:06.360] empathy and understanding. So let's get you closer to your own version
[03:06.360 -> 03:07.520] of high performance.
[03:07.520 -> 03:11.140] Here's Ben Towers on the High Performance Podcast.
[03:11.140 -> 03:16.140] Well Ben, welcome along to the podcast.
[03:17.120 -> 03:21.040] Let's start with your definition please of high performance.
[03:21.040 -> 03:23.320] I think high performance varies for everybody.
[03:23.320 -> 03:28.540] For me, high performance is waking up every day and feeling at my optimum to get going
[03:28.540 -> 03:34.220] straight away and I think what makes high performance for me is sleep such a
[03:34.220 -> 03:38.360] big thing part of that because I feel like if I get the day going quite slow I
[03:38.360 -> 03:42.100] find it really hard to reach sort of the height of my performance throughout the day.
[03:42.100 -> 03:46.040] Okay so a lot of people here folk go
[03:46.360 -> 03:51.240] It's being at my optimum apart from sleep. What are the other most important things particularly?
[03:51.240 -> 03:55.160] I'm interested in in the mindset side the things that people can adopt for themselves
[03:55.160 -> 04:02.160] What are the things that get you closer to high performance? I actually sometimes it's think not quite over complicating it
[04:02.320 -> 04:08.040] But yeah, I think it's also a routine is really important as well knowing that you know for the next hour I've got this free
[04:08.040 -> 04:12.160] space to juggle around whatever I need to do. So tell us about your routine then Ben.
[04:12.160 -> 04:16.380] Usually throughout the day like we've got a team and clients so often loads
[04:16.380 -> 04:20.920] of calls during the day so for me I try to make it so my mind's free to be able to
[04:20.920 -> 04:30.440] in between calls answer questions and there's lots of things going on with the business at all times. So I usually mornings I keep quite quiet where I'm not
[04:30.440 -> 04:33.960] like a morning person, I'm not like the people who wakes up at 5am you know straight out
[04:33.960 -> 04:38.920] of bed off a run and so on. I'll get up at about 8 o'clock, have something to eat, head
[04:38.920 -> 04:44.240] to the office, get on my emails and almost get started. Now I know for me personally
[04:44.240 -> 04:48.080] I've learned that my body in the morning is not great
[04:48.080 -> 04:50.040] for thinking about some of these creative tasks,
[04:50.040 -> 04:51.760] but I can, you know, churn through emails,
[04:51.760 -> 04:52.880] I can meet some of the team
[04:52.880 -> 04:54.800] and get some sort of to-dos knocked off.
[04:54.800 -> 04:55.640] So I use that in the morning.
[04:55.640 -> 04:57.160] And then as the day progresses,
[04:57.160 -> 05:00.720] I almost get more creative, a bit less drawn to a desk
[05:00.720 -> 05:03.120] and more like wanting to go and do things and so on.
[05:03.120 -> 05:04.600] The reason I'm interested in this is
[05:04.600 -> 05:07.040] because of the origins of you starting
[05:07.040 -> 05:10.920] your business and your entrepreneurial journey at 11 years of age, where your
[05:10.920 -> 05:15.360] days were more structured, you know, you go into school, you've got lessons that
[05:15.360 -> 05:16.200] you need to attend.
[05:16.480 -> 05:20.600] And I'm interested in terms of when did you discover when you were at your
[05:20.600 -> 05:22.400] optimum, when you were at your best?
[05:22.720 -> 05:49.620] So when I first started out, naturally the only time I had would be after school in the evenings. And that for me, I'd literally come home, um, get my homework pushed out of the way. I just quickly get myself quickly. I can sit down and I basically be learning online, how to build websites. And that's how I started the company. And so for me, the evenings, I just, I'd say I learned, but also just stumbled upon it because that's the natural time I had to sit at my desk to work and I'd quite quickly just look at
[05:49.620 -> 05:52.360] my computer and be like oh my word it's like 2 in the morning and I've got
[05:52.360 -> 05:56.960] school and you just was time I just fly doing that and so I've been actually
[05:56.960 -> 06:01.920] learned if I want to like really work at pace evenings actually a perfect time
[06:01.920 -> 06:09.280] for me and I'll often after eating I'll go back to my computer and do that. I'd say one thing I'm also quite grateful for, I mean you mentioned
[06:09.280 -> 06:13.880] that starting a company at 11 is from a really young age I think I've taught myself this
[06:13.880 -> 06:17.840] ethic of like you need to work hard like to be able to grow especially in business so
[06:17.840 -> 06:21.680] you can't just like people say oh I'll go to the golf course all morning meet a couple
[06:21.680 -> 06:25.440] of people and that's it but maybe that is down the line. But when you first started now,
[06:25.440 -> 06:28.080] it's really about sort of getting things out the door,
[06:28.080 -> 06:29.520] moving things forward.
[06:29.520 -> 06:30.960] And so I'm quite grateful that, you know,
[06:30.960 -> 06:34.600] from the age in which you learn what is work,
[06:34.600 -> 06:36.880] I was doing school and then working in the evenings.
[06:36.880 -> 06:38.440] So I'm naturally just quite happy
[06:38.440 -> 06:40.560] just to carry on and keep working.
[06:40.560 -> 06:42.760] And what messages were your parents giving you at this time?
[06:42.760 -> 06:44.560] Because I'll come at this, Ben,
[06:44.560 -> 06:46.160] from someone with a daughter who's about
[06:46.160 -> 06:50.060] To turn 10 you weren't much older than that when you started this business and you say at 2 in the morning
[06:50.060 -> 06:52.060] I realized I had school the next day
[06:52.220 -> 06:55.840] Like if Florence isn't asleep by 9 o'clock. We're in the bedroom every 10 minutes
[06:55.840 -> 07:02.320] Come on, you know, we limit the amount of time on screens all of these things that weren't happening to you at that age
[07:02.320 -> 07:04.960] It sounds like but we all think that's the right thing
[07:04.960 -> 07:05.060] So I'm interested in a few things in the first one is what were your parents doing? weren't happening to you at that age, it sounds like, but we all think that's the right thing.
[07:05.060 -> 07:06.760] So I'm interested in a few things.
[07:06.760 -> 07:10.040] And the first one is, what were your parents doing
[07:10.040 -> 07:12.920] at this time to not derail you
[07:12.920 -> 07:14.880] from this path of hard work and graph?
[07:14.880 -> 07:16.000] What were their messages?
[07:16.000 -> 07:18.800] Yeah, so my parents are not in business at all,
[07:18.800 -> 07:20.680] but I think what they did really well,
[07:20.680 -> 07:21.960] and it's something that, you know,
[07:21.960 -> 07:23.120] hopefully one day when I'm a parent,
[07:23.120 -> 07:29.360] I'd love to do this, is actually set like open open challenges and go can you do this or can you achieve
[07:29.360 -> 07:33.600] this and for me I love I love being able to almost prove someone wrong yeah I can give
[07:33.600 -> 07:38.120] that a go and for me that's such a big thing. My mum did sit me down quite early on and
[07:38.120 -> 07:41.960] was like look what I think you're doing you know with website stuff you know I'm not necessarily
[07:41.960 -> 07:48.920] 100% knowing of all what's going on but but you know, just need to be careful. Don't get yourself into any like dodgy work.
[07:48.920 -> 07:52.800] Don't do any, anything that's going to like, any bad for you or bad for anyone else. And
[07:52.800 -> 07:57.400] I think them give me the freedom to say, we know you're not sitting now on social media,
[07:57.400 -> 08:01.560] just having a watch. You actually are, you know, learning things and progressing your
[08:01.560 -> 08:04.840] career and then saying, we're not going to sit here and pretend to be an expert, but
[08:04.840 -> 08:08.560] we're going to give you that space allowed me to learn.
[08:08.560 -> 08:12.440] Take us into that conversation then Ben with your mum, because there's a couple of things
[08:12.440 -> 08:17.640] there that I'm hearing that she's nurturing the creativity and she's asking you to be
[08:17.640 -> 08:23.680] curious, but it also sounds like she was laying down some really clear principles. And I'm
[08:23.680 -> 08:25.160] interested, what did she tell you then that you still maintain today? sounds like she was laying down some really clear principles and I'm
[08:23.720 -> 08:27.920] interested what did she tell you then
[08:25.160 -> 08:29.800] that you still maintain today? That's one
[08:27.920 -> 08:32.080] thing I'd say I'm really grateful for my
[08:29.800 -> 08:34.440] parents a whole time growing up is they
[08:32.080 -> 08:37.320] very much said you know yeah we don't get
[08:34.440 -> 08:38.400] eight you know nine to five but these are
[08:37.320 -> 08:40.160] the principles these are what's really
[08:38.400 -> 08:41.640] important I say don't don't do
[08:40.160 -> 08:43.480] anything which is illegal or gonna harm
[08:41.640 -> 08:45.320] anyone or don't do anything which
[08:43.480 -> 08:49.240] you know you'll ever regret in the future. And it sounds quite basic but I actually think when you're
[08:49.240 -> 08:53.920] a young person if you're told too many rules, too many don'ts, I think it actually comes
[08:53.920 -> 09:00.240] back negatively. People who get told like don't do this, don't do this, I actually think
[09:00.240 -> 09:04.280] it makes you go oh maybe I could. So yeah that was a big thing for me. She also said
[09:04.280 -> 09:08.220] for example the legalities of being such a young person running a company.
[09:08.220 -> 09:12.280] So by doing that, then basically she said, look, your granddad, he's been an entrepreneur
[09:12.280 -> 09:16.600] all his life, have a call with him, go and see him and just find out, you know, can you
[09:16.600 -> 09:21.080] be 11 and can you run a business? And what does that mean from a tax point of view for
[09:21.080 -> 09:22.080] everything else?
[09:22.080 -> 09:27.560] So what did he say? Because that was going to be my next question. Your parents aren't in business and here you are at 11.
[09:27.560 -> 09:30.040] And I love, by the way, I love the way you blasé,
[09:30.040 -> 09:32.840] kind of just go, well, you know, I was good on computers,
[09:32.840 -> 09:34.040] so I set up a business.
[09:34.040 -> 09:36.800] It's like loads of people are good on computers.
[09:36.800 -> 09:39.080] They don't run a business at the age that you were running it
[09:39.080 -> 09:40.080] and we'll talk about how it grew
[09:40.080 -> 09:42.080] and how successful you became with it.
[09:42.080 -> 09:44.560] What was the advice then from your grandfather?
[09:44.560 -> 09:46.480] It was basically, speak to a lawyer was basically the top line of it. What was the advice then from your grandfather? It was basically speak to a lawyer
[09:46.480 -> 09:47.760] was basically the top line of it.
[09:47.760 -> 09:49.600] And I had all these conversations
[09:49.600 -> 09:51.880] and even until I was 18,
[09:51.880 -> 09:54.360] every year I'd get tax inspected by the government
[09:54.360 -> 09:56.200] because there's always this weird thing of,
[09:56.200 -> 09:59.120] you have a child running a company,
[09:59.120 -> 10:00.360] is it his parents?
[10:00.360 -> 10:01.200] What is it?
[10:01.200 -> 10:04.040] And I think now times are changing a bit
[10:04.040 -> 10:05.680] because you're now starting to get, you know,
[10:05.680 -> 10:08.260] people producing content online from a really young age
[10:08.260 -> 10:09.620] and that is a business.
[10:09.620 -> 10:12.900] But when I was doing it, it was still sort of quite early on.
[10:12.900 -> 10:15.380] So yeah, I spoke to a number of lawyers
[10:15.380 -> 10:17.660] and we had a few challenging stories
[10:17.660 -> 10:19.700] that couldn't get a bank account in the name of a company
[10:19.700 -> 10:21.660] but could have a business and that sort of thing.
[10:21.660 -> 10:24.860] So I had a few loopholes I had to work around.
[10:24.860 -> 10:28.160] But I also think for me, I'm that sort of guy,
[10:28.160 -> 10:31.000] once that box was ticked and they said, you're good to go,
[10:31.000 -> 10:33.080] I was in that, right, I'm like a sprinter
[10:33.080 -> 10:36.000] at the start of a race now, now I can like, I can run.
[10:36.000 -> 10:37.800] So interesting, and to be doing that
[10:37.800 -> 10:40.000] at such a young age is fascinating.
[10:40.000 -> 10:41.880] How sure and certain were you
[10:41.880 -> 10:44.360] about what you wanted this business to be?
[10:44.360 -> 10:47.440] Like, did you see the whole path in front of you?
[10:47.440 -> 10:49.280] Until about 15, not at all.
[10:49.280 -> 10:52.880] Until I was that age, it was quite literally money to go to the sweet shop.
[10:52.880 -> 10:56.160] And you know, my first ever client was my mum's friend, who's an author,
[10:56.160 -> 10:59.360] and she said, here's 50 pound, build me a website.
[10:59.360 -> 11:03.680] And so in that case, when you're 11, 50 pound is literally the corner shop,
[11:03.680 -> 11:07.080] and I'm going to fill that bag full of anything that's got sugar in.
[11:07.080 -> 11:13.120] Whereas when I started to get to 14, 15, I think the reality hit me to go, you're actually
[11:13.120 -> 11:14.120] running a company.
[11:14.120 -> 11:19.720] And at this age, for me, my understanding of business was high rise office blocks in
[11:19.720 -> 11:20.720] London.
[11:20.720 -> 11:24.220] It was never somebody in their bedroom building websites.
[11:24.220 -> 11:26.720] And so that, I think, when I started to realize
[11:26.720 -> 11:28.720] that what I'm actually doing is technically a company
[11:28.720 -> 11:31.720] and that shift, that's what also made my mindset shift
[11:31.720 -> 11:33.260] to go, okay, hang on a minute.
[11:33.260 -> 11:35.720] If I'm running a company, I need to think like a company.
[11:35.720 -> 11:37.040] And I made some silly decisions.
[11:37.040 -> 11:38.960] I ended up buying a fax machine.
[11:38.960 -> 11:41.160] I bought a desk that was about three quarters
[11:41.160 -> 11:43.080] of the size of my bedroom at home,
[11:43.080 -> 11:45.280] like a big corner desk that didn't fit.
[11:45.480 -> 11:48.200] But I just thought, you know, if I'm running a company, I need all the equipment.
[11:48.440 -> 11:55.080] So give us the 15 year old guide to running a company then of what smart
[11:55.080 -> 11:58.800] decisions you made that did pay dividends into the future.
[11:59.400 -> 12:02.600] I'd say the biggest thing for me, it paid the biggest dividends is the
[12:02.600 -> 12:04.520] fact I genuinely loved what I was doing.
[12:05.040 -> 12:07.640] And I think one thing I've seen quite a lot about
[12:07.640 -> 12:09.160] the next generation of entrepreneurs
[12:09.160 -> 12:11.720] is they go entrepreneur first and go,
[12:11.720 -> 12:13.280] how do I make money?
[12:13.280 -> 12:14.320] And they don't think about,
[12:14.320 -> 12:16.680] here's a passion I genuinely love,
[12:16.680 -> 12:18.440] how can I commercialize that?
[12:18.440 -> 12:20.520] And so for me, I was making websites.
[12:20.520 -> 12:21.360] I genuinely loved it.
[12:21.360 -> 12:22.840] I was doing that for fun in the evenings
[12:22.840 -> 12:24.720] before anyone paid me.
[12:24.720 -> 12:30.400] Whereas people who now go, oh, I'm going to start up this business drop shipping products because
[12:30.400 -> 12:35.520] I can make X amount of money per item. I generally see those people after a year or so get bored and
[12:35.520 -> 12:41.120] they leave. They just wind down. I don't put in the extra time you need because it's not got the
[12:41.120 -> 12:46.120] fun. I think that's the biggest thing for definite that even right now what I'm doing company-wise,
[12:46.120 -> 12:47.680] you know, that's still really important to me.
[12:47.680 -> 12:49.760] I have to feel personally aligned to what I'm doing.
[12:49.760 -> 12:53.520] I can't just do a company that's just for the numbers.
[12:53.520 -> 12:55.640] And I'd say the other thing that for me
[12:55.640 -> 12:57.840] is really important, business point of view,
[12:57.840 -> 13:00.400] at that age is the power of networking.
[13:00.400 -> 13:03.280] And that again was my parents sort of just saying,
[13:03.280 -> 13:05.200] Ben, you learn best from meeting people.
[13:05.200 -> 13:06.600] You're a talker, you like to meet people,
[13:06.600 -> 13:07.960] like to say hi and that sort of thing.
[13:07.960 -> 13:10.040] So get yourself out there and network.
[13:10.040 -> 13:12.400] And that's how I met my accountant, met my mentors,
[13:12.400 -> 13:15.280] met people who ended up working with me and stuff
[13:15.280 -> 13:17.520] and just seeing them face to face.
[13:17.520 -> 13:20.120] As an adult, I would find a networking meeting,
[13:20.120 -> 13:22.880] even today, intimidating.
[13:22.880 -> 13:26.800] As a 15 year old, I found it just paralyzing with fear. So
[13:26.800 -> 13:32.080] tell, talk to us about walking into these networking meetings as a 15 year old boy and
[13:32.080 -> 13:37.600] telling them about your business. I'd say at first it was quite novel because this idea that
[13:38.400 -> 13:42.720] I was by far the youngest person, you know, maybe like two or three times youngest in some cases.
[13:42.720 -> 13:45.360] And so there was like, at first time there was a bit sort of,
[13:45.360 -> 13:47.840] oh, all these questions and it's almost be a bit fun.
[13:47.840 -> 13:49.520] Can I talk about what I'm up to?
[13:49.520 -> 13:52.320] And then I think it struck me that, you know what,
[13:52.320 -> 13:56.480] it's quite weird how I'm so different from other people in this room.
[13:56.480 -> 13:59.680] And so it made me really think about when I go into that room,
[13:59.680 -> 14:02.160] is there anything that I'm expecting or want?
[14:02.160 -> 14:04.720] So for example, I knew at one point I had a real issue,
[14:04.720 -> 14:06.640] just understanding finances of a company.
[14:06.640 -> 14:08.600] You know, I've never been taught about this.
[14:08.600 -> 14:11.240] So for me to read a P&L my accountant was giving me,
[14:11.240 -> 14:13.800] I had to learn about what every single line meant.
[14:13.800 -> 14:15.600] And so I remember one networking event,
[14:15.600 -> 14:18.000] I met someone who ended up becoming a mentor of mine.
[14:18.000 -> 14:20.480] He's like a former CFO of some big startups and things
[14:20.480 -> 14:23.120] and just said, yeah, let's meet up for coffee next week
[14:23.120 -> 14:24.560] and I'll support you.
[14:24.560 -> 14:29.580] So I had to just learn to like almost if there's a problem, I could meet people to support
[14:29.580 -> 14:33.040] me on that. But yeah, it's still scary. Even now I'm not a big fan of walking in doing
[14:33.040 -> 14:37.660] networking events, things like that at all. So I'm not the sort of type to walk around
[14:37.660 -> 14:41.460] and be like, I'll hire to everyone, shake everyone's hand and so on. But I think I almost
[14:41.460 -> 14:47.600] learned that if I want to be successful at this, I need to be able to meet new people and do that and just push myself for that.
[14:47.600 -> 14:52.320] And what was your relationship like with self-doubt and imposter syndrome at this age?
[14:52.320 -> 14:58.880] At this age, I would say I was just flying, living the dream, had this company, I was
[14:58.880 -> 15:02.760] you know, enjoying it. It was small at that point, but I was enjoying it. But I'd say
[15:02.760 -> 15:05.240] as the company began to grow,
[15:05.240 -> 15:07.320] as you know, a lot of media attention on this idea
[15:07.320 -> 15:09.600] of this young boy in his bedroom building a business
[15:09.600 -> 15:12.160] and so on, I'd say that definitely started to hit me
[15:12.160 -> 15:15.680] because I think at that point I then realized
[15:15.680 -> 15:18.720] how important having a support network around me
[15:18.720 -> 15:20.040] genuinely is.
[15:20.040 -> 15:23.360] And I almost realized I have like parents
[15:23.360 -> 15:25.000] in my life setting, I know I have like parents in my life setting.
[15:25.280 -> 15:27.600] I know I have what I call my business parents.
[15:27.600 -> 15:29.600] And these are a couple of people who I've known
[15:29.600 -> 15:30.600] for a number of years, who are literally
[15:30.600 -> 15:33.120] the same age as my parents, who I literally just go to
[15:33.120 -> 15:34.280] for this sort of advice.
[15:34.280 -> 15:38.200] And if I ever feel like down or feel a bit like,
[15:38.200 -> 15:39.760] have an imposter syndrome or whatever it might be,
[15:39.760 -> 15:41.680] I then start to go to them and go,
[15:41.680 -> 15:43.200] I don't know what to do about this.
[15:43.200 -> 15:44.200] So this is what I'm feeling.
[15:44.200 -> 15:48.220] And they'll break it down for me and just guide me through that. But never tell me how
[15:48.220 -> 15:51.760] to run the business, but they'll give me that sort of advice.
[15:51.760 -> 15:57.680] And did you go to them Ben, because your parents not being from an entrepreneurial background,
[15:57.680 -> 15:59.680] weren't able to give you the answers that you were looking for?
[15:59.680 -> 16:05.760] Yes, but I also think because I personally I quite like personal work separation as
[16:05.760 -> 16:10.640] well and I quite like the fact that you know when I was living in Kent going
[16:10.640 -> 16:13.760] into London doing these meetings and working there and so on I could come
[16:13.760 -> 16:18.840] home and it had a bit of separation and not feel like work so I almost quite
[16:18.840 -> 16:22.920] hesitant to come home and talk about my problems because I was grateful for the
[16:22.920 -> 16:27.760] fact that the dining table we were talking about my mum's friends cues got into this school or my
[16:27.760 -> 16:30.880] dad's table tennis club you know these random things but it was nice to have
[16:30.880 -> 16:34.640] those conversations compared to like business problems I like to keep them
[16:34.640 -> 16:39.040] separate. Toby Rory- So recruiting mentors is one thing how do you go about recruiting
[16:39.040 -> 16:43.640] colleagues and employees then? By the way particularly when you're a teenager and
[16:43.640 -> 16:47.520] you're trying to find people to come and work for a business and you're going, do you want to join a
[16:47.520 -> 16:51.840] guy who's still at school setting up a business? I mean very, very few adults
[16:51.840 -> 16:56.480] would be comfortable in that situation I think Ben, you know. Yeah and so by the
[16:56.480 -> 17:00.880] time the company was in that full motion and I had a guy who was basically helping me run
[17:00.880 -> 17:04.800] the business day-to-day who was much older, so when I was 18 he was 60, so we call
[17:04.800 -> 17:06.800] ourselves Club 1860, but he, but by the time he had to day, who's much older. So when I was 18, he was 60, so we call ourself Club 1860.
[17:06.800 -> 17:09.160] But by the time he had to that,
[17:09.160 -> 17:10.560] he was really on it when it comes to,
[17:10.560 -> 17:11.760] he always had the first meeting,
[17:11.760 -> 17:14.680] basically say, the marketing company you're about to join
[17:14.680 -> 17:17.160] is not what maybe you expect it to be
[17:17.160 -> 17:18.480] and almost tell them.
[17:18.480 -> 17:20.960] And people, I think some found that exciting,
[17:20.960 -> 17:22.800] the fact that I was never saying,
[17:22.800 -> 17:24.280] this is how other companies do it.
[17:24.280 -> 17:25.160] It was saying, this is how I think we it, it was saying this is how I think
[17:25.160 -> 17:28.460] we should do it. And some enjoyed that some got put off by
[17:28.460 -> 17:30.980] that. And we had to build a process to determine that quite
[17:30.980 -> 17:34.340] early on. But going back to when it was just me, like my first
[17:34.340 -> 17:38.360] hires and so on. When I was really young, I was quite scared
[17:38.360 -> 17:42.080] to say my age, this idea that you mentioned, would you work
[17:42.080 -> 17:48.560] for a 14, 15 year old boy in his bedroom and that sort of thing. And so what age were you when you hired your first member of staff?
[17:48.560 -> 17:55.080] Um, freelance 14 had like people doing like jobs for me in the evenings and so on. And
[17:55.080 -> 18:00.080] I would never tell them my age. And even on calls, it would always be more like a phone
[18:00.080 -> 18:10.400] call than it would be a video call. And would you speak in a deeper voice? Yeah, I'd just pick the kids up from school, had been a long time. Just go, got the car back from the MOT
[18:10.400 -> 18:13.920] and everything. I actually had a bad experience with the first of a person who I then took
[18:13.920 -> 18:18.240] on from being like job by job to basically like a more structured contract, still freelance
[18:18.240 -> 18:22.500] because it's really logistical at that age to do PAY and so on. So took this lady on
[18:22.500 -> 18:25.880] full time as a freelancer, then this new story came
[18:25.880 -> 18:29.560] out about again this young boy in his bedroom building a business and she read
[18:29.560 -> 18:34.280] it and I know she read it because one day I remember really well I'm sitting
[18:34.280 -> 18:37.680] in a science class and I get this text from a client being a bit like where's
[18:37.680 -> 18:41.840] the website it's been weeks now and I just didn't realize and I looked into it
[18:41.840 -> 18:47.680] it turned out she was actually working double jobs whilst I was at school working for someone else but because she
[18:47.680 -> 18:52.200] found out that I was at school could get away with it and I'm now thinking oh my
[18:52.200 -> 18:55.480] word this is like my first ever HR issue and I'm not chatting to my mom like do I
[18:55.480 -> 18:58.720] compose it like an email how do I get rid of a what's up a process here and
[18:58.720 -> 19:04.320] so on and I think from that point as well I also taught myself and made it
[19:04.320 -> 19:06.760] really clear I need to be authentic from now on.
[19:06.760 -> 19:07.600] I need to be open.
[19:07.600 -> 19:09.440] This is my age and you know what?
[19:09.440 -> 19:10.640] Some aren't gonna like that
[19:10.640 -> 19:12.680] and I'm not gonna take offense to that,
[19:12.680 -> 19:14.520] but you need to be aware from day one,
[19:14.520 -> 19:16.480] this is the company, this is how we work
[19:16.480 -> 19:18.680] and this is who I am about that.
[19:18.680 -> 19:20.920] And how did you deal with that particular issue?
[19:20.920 -> 19:22.160] Because this is fascinating.
[19:22.160 -> 19:24.320] It's the first time you've had to confront this
[19:24.320 -> 19:28.120] in your life. Yeah, I mean, the perk of it was which was a contractor
[19:28.120 -> 19:33.600] So it was much easier to sort of say look no more work coming your way and ended up and that way that was much
[19:33.600 -> 19:38.980] Easier because there wasn't it wasn't as hard whereas that when you employ someone it's so much more logistical and so on
[19:38.980 -> 19:41.680] But thankfully none of you actually employed people
[19:41.680 -> 19:50.640] I've ever had that issue with and I think because I learned on, okay, actually you can't be someone's like boss and pretend or hide who you really are,
[19:50.640 -> 19:54.400] you know, for this to work and flourish, you have to be, you have to have a great relationship.
[19:54.400 -> 19:57.760] Steve Miller But how did you avoid becoming cynical about
[19:57.760 -> 20:03.760] that? Because that's a young age to get a pretty harsh lesson in, in double standards.
[20:03.760 -> 20:06.920] Joe Pideman My mindset is always like, what's next?
[20:07.060 -> 20:08.040] How can I be better?
[20:08.040 -> 20:09.160] How can I improve that?
[20:09.480 -> 20:14.340] And so I think I can quite easily just park that and move on because in my mind,
[20:14.560 -> 20:18.500] part of me, maybe it's a bit of fuel to go, okay, now I've got to prove her wrong.
[20:18.500 -> 20:18.660] Yeah.
[20:18.660 -> 20:21.580] Now I've got to show that actually, you know what I can go ahead and I'm going to
[20:22.060 -> 20:27.680] make this company even bigger and better and almost show what you've missed out on. And part of me is also a bit like that chapter is over now,
[20:27.680 -> 20:31.600] now on to the next thing. And I've always been quite good at that, being able to close things
[20:31.600 -> 20:36.720] off, which I think has also helped as the company grows and you get both internal, external politics
[20:36.720 -> 20:41.680] of clients and so on. And it's, yeah, it's always been the ability that probably for my parents,
[20:41.680 -> 20:47.040] I'm really grateful to be able to do that. And what happened to this business? I mean I assume you're not running the same
[20:47.040 -> 20:52.200] business now? No, so I was 18 years old I was at this point doing loads of
[20:52.200 -> 20:55.600] amazing events so I was actually doing some work with my family as well and the
[20:55.600 -> 21:02.200] government and... Okay stop stop you're 18 years old we do need to connect the
[21:02.200 -> 21:05.600] dots here how have you gone from doing your science classes,
[21:05.600 -> 21:10.800] employing a few freelancers, to being 18 and working with the royal family in the government,
[21:10.800 -> 21:15.520] and also, by the way, being described as one of the UK's most exciting entrepreneurs by none other
[21:15.520 -> 21:21.280] than Sir Richard Branson. When did this thing explode and how, and how did you deal with it?
[21:21.280 -> 21:27.280] So I was 16, did my last GCSE exams, I remember it was on the first day of my last exam,
[21:27.280 -> 21:29.040] that Monday got my first office.
[21:29.040 -> 21:30.400] And I remember saying to my dad,
[21:30.400 -> 21:31.920] in the back of his car, get anything in.
[21:31.920 -> 21:33.760] I was like, right, now is the time.
[21:33.760 -> 21:37.120] I feel like I'd almost been released in a weird way.
[21:37.120 -> 21:39.120] Being like, you know what, the day-to-day of school
[21:39.120 -> 21:41.440] would now be said, actually, that's now finished, off you go.
[21:42.240 -> 21:43.840] A few things, I ended up employing myself
[21:43.840 -> 21:46.440] as an apprentice in my own business,
[21:46.440 -> 21:49.760] so I could be full-time in the company from 16 to 18.
[21:49.760 -> 21:51.680] And is that a common thing?
[21:51.680 -> 21:54.760] As far as I'm aware, I'm the first person to have done that,
[21:54.760 -> 21:57.240] and it meant I was still in education,
[21:57.240 -> 21:58.960] which is the law until you're 18,
[21:58.960 -> 22:01.140] and so I still do the apprenticeship work,
[22:01.140 -> 22:03.280] but I was also now full-time in the company.
[22:03.280 -> 22:10.120] One of my employees was then my mentor for the apprenticeship. So, moved into this new office, moved into it, started
[22:10.120 -> 22:14.240] to put all the stuff there, and then I actually was sitting down with one of my mentors and
[22:14.240 -> 22:18.760] he was like, and his exact words, I'll never forget it, he was like, website design companies
[22:18.760 -> 22:22.800] are like fish and chip shops for everywhere. Like, this is the point when everyone was
[22:22.800 -> 22:25.520] moving online, every company was trying to build
[22:25.520 -> 22:27.520] their website, increase their presence.
[22:27.520 -> 22:31.280] I'm the same age as Google, I think, bar one day.
[22:31.280 -> 22:34.120] My whole life I've grown up with this sort of technology.
[22:34.120 -> 22:38.760] So it got to this point where there was this big demand of people to go, yeah, you've got
[22:38.760 -> 22:42.000] a nice website, but how do we get more people to see it and so on.
[22:42.000 -> 22:46.320] And basically we fell into marketing and we won some amazing government contracts.
[22:46.320 -> 22:47.720] And that's basically how we grew into that,
[22:47.720 -> 22:50.680] doing like road safety campaigns and things like that.
[22:50.680 -> 22:52.920] Won that and generally the whole pitch
[22:52.920 -> 22:55.000] in the marketing side of it was,
[22:55.000 -> 22:57.920] don't pay for a company who no young people
[22:57.920 -> 22:59.920] was in, read about them.
[22:59.920 -> 23:01.760] Pay for a company who's read by a young person,
[23:01.760 -> 23:03.720] advertising to his peers
[23:03.720 -> 23:06.040] and how much more effective that can be.
[23:06.040 -> 23:07.720] And that's something we see,
[23:07.720 -> 23:09.020] you know, even right now in modern day,
[23:09.020 -> 23:11.120] if you wanna reach a certain demographic of people,
[23:11.120 -> 23:13.360] then you bring in people who you're trying to reach
[23:13.360 -> 23:15.640] to help them come out of that campaign.
[23:15.640 -> 23:17.120] And so that was like a whole thing.
[23:17.120 -> 23:17.960] We did some amazing work,
[23:17.960 -> 23:19.080] people like Pot Noodle,
[23:19.080 -> 23:20.080] you know, working with government,
[23:20.080 -> 23:23.560] you're working with some real big corporates to do this.
[23:23.560 -> 23:26.360] And that then led to me being randomly asked,
[23:26.360 -> 23:28.720] can I go and speak at conferences and speak at events?
[23:28.720 -> 23:30.720] And so I started to do a lot of that.
[23:30.720 -> 23:33.560] That I'd say also got me through the challenge,
[23:33.560 -> 23:35.440] Jake, you're asking about earlier about age
[23:35.440 -> 23:38.240] and a young person someone wanted to work for you.
[23:38.240 -> 23:41.100] They're the same sort of conundrum with clients.
[23:41.100 -> 23:45.640] Why would a multinational corporate turn around and say we're
[23:45.640 -> 23:50.280] going to trust this 16, 17 year old boy with what at some stages could be
[23:50.280 -> 23:54.040] half a million pound contracts to do a big marketing campaign for us.
[23:54.040 -> 23:57.440] You know he might just run off to the sweet shop still, you know you never know
[23:57.440 -> 24:02.840] what's going to go on. So for me speaking on stages or events was like my way of
[24:02.840 -> 24:06.920] always proving myself because it's saying that you know what's you to speak at this event you've got some
[24:06.920 -> 24:10.960] credibility you position yourself in a certain light. So I'd again win some
[24:10.960 -> 24:15.920] great clients doing that and then I was actually speaking a couple events that
[24:15.920 -> 24:20.220] meets people and people are like look we're doing this work at government to do this big
[24:20.220 -> 24:24.760] review for young people and how can we encourage young entrepreneurship across
[24:24.760 -> 24:25.040] the UK. So I then worked with a department to do like a big review for young people and how can we encourage young entrepreneurship across the
[24:25.040 -> 24:26.040] UK.
[24:26.040 -> 24:31.720] So I then worked with a department that did like a big review on how to encourage entrepreneurship
[24:31.720 -> 24:36.000] and then the Royal Family side of things, the Royal Family have got some amazing initiatives
[24:36.000 -> 24:37.000] to do.
[24:37.000 -> 24:41.120] I think we often don't talk about the hundreds of initiatives that go on behind the scenes
[24:41.120 -> 24:48.800] of the charities, the work they're doing and I was really honoured, I got invited out to Bahrain to go and speak over there and I
[24:48.800 -> 24:52.720] also did a lot of work on some initiatives that help train young people
[24:52.720 -> 24:58.640] to get digital skills and just this idea that my generation are the ones who are
[24:58.640 -> 25:03.240] going to be using all these like Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and actually making
[25:03.240 -> 25:08.720] practical use out of a lot of the technology that's now almost being passed over and so on. And so trying to educate
[25:08.720 -> 25:12.560] people from a really young age to give it a go, see if it's what for you and so on,
[25:12.560 -> 25:18.000] because we do have a massive shortage of like engineers and technology people in the country.
[25:18.000 -> 25:23.800] So when you were going into these environments, Sen Ben, like, I can't help wondering, like,
[25:23.800 -> 25:26.240] did you ever feel patronised by some of these older
[25:26.240 -> 25:31.400] people and if so, how did you overcome that to be able to build that credibility beyond
[25:31.400 -> 25:32.400] speaking at events?
[25:32.400 -> 25:36.200] Yeah, you must have developed some killer line, right, that just shuts people down when
[25:36.200 -> 25:39.040] you can sense that they're...
[25:39.040 -> 25:44.200] I think I actually... so sometimes if I was really annoyed, I'd like to say, actually
[25:44.200 -> 25:45.720] you realise that I,
[25:45.720 -> 25:47.360] everybody's probably have like 20 employees,
[25:47.360 -> 25:49.160] but no, I've actually got company like 20 employees,
[25:49.160 -> 25:51.560] more companies than my age and more people.
[25:51.560 -> 25:53.520] And so sometimes I'd be, sometimes say to me.
[25:53.520 -> 25:56.600] I've got more staff, more staff than years on the earth.
[25:56.600 -> 25:58.400] That's quite a good line to shut people down.
[25:58.400 -> 25:59.240] I like that.
[25:59.240 -> 26:01.440] And that, but I think actually most of the time,
[26:01.440 -> 26:03.200] I think I just learned to sort of turn around and say,
[26:03.200 -> 26:06.280] actually, if they're not going to respect that,
[26:06.280 -> 26:08.920] then I don't wanna be in that room.
[26:08.920 -> 26:11.400] And I learned that the hard way from a really young age,
[26:11.400 -> 26:13.600] I was like 14, I remember I got invited
[26:13.600 -> 26:15.480] and to some massive, it's like,
[26:17.080 -> 26:18.960] it represent lots of companies across the UK,
[26:18.960 -> 26:21.280] like a big body, got invited to a meeting,
[26:21.280 -> 26:22.520] my mom actually had to go up with me
[26:22.520 -> 26:23.800] because they said, you're so young,
[26:23.800 -> 26:24.640] we need to have you there.
[26:24.640 -> 26:26.680] And it was full of, is the honest old guys to a meeting, my mom actually had to go up with me because they said, you're so young, we need to have you there. And it was full of, as you know,
[26:26.680 -> 26:28.480] this old guys in a room, you know,
[26:28.480 -> 26:30.040] just sitting there sort of saying,
[26:30.040 -> 26:32.600] this is what future businesses are.
[26:32.600 -> 26:33.920] I was just sitting there and sort of,
[26:33.920 -> 26:35.040] yeah, it's a nice experience,
[26:35.040 -> 26:36.160] you're in a great office,
[26:36.160 -> 26:37.600] you got all these nice teas and biscuits,
[26:37.600 -> 26:38.440] and we say to each other,
[26:38.440 -> 26:39.560] oh, this is lovely.
[26:39.560 -> 26:41.560] Then on reflection, I was like,
[26:41.560 -> 26:43.000] you know what, that's,
[26:43.000 -> 26:44.840] I was just there to be a puppet,
[26:44.840 -> 26:45.920] there to be, there to look good, just because they wanted to be seen like, you know what, that's, I was just there to be a puppet, there to be, there to
[26:45.920 -> 26:49.280] look good, you know, just because they wanted to be seen like, oh, we're helping the next
[26:49.280 -> 26:54.400] generation. At no point were any of my ideas or any of my suggestions or I was ever really
[26:54.400 -> 26:59.200] asked to actually do something that made a difference. And that made me really sort of,
[26:59.200 -> 27:03.280] almost have some self-respect, actually, if I'm going to do that, I want to be somewhere that's
[27:04.080 -> 27:07.800] going to be able to make a change and I can see that change through and even
[27:07.800 -> 27:10.240] like now you know if I'm like I'm gonna get involved in something I'm always
[27:10.240 -> 27:14.280] like is this just some face to a piece of paper or is this actually something
[27:14.280 -> 27:18.720] that I can see an impact and actually get that the satisfaction that someone
[27:18.720 -> 27:26.780] has benefited from this. So give us some advice then. So Jake and myself are two blokes in our mid-40s.
[27:26.780 -> 27:35.020] One of us is in our mid-40s. Yeah, I'm elevating Jake's haze there Ben, but
[27:35.020 -> 27:38.520] what I mean is like, what advice would you give us that we can do to be an
[27:38.520 -> 27:43.600] advocate, whether it's for young people or people from a minority group or
[27:43.600 -> 27:46.040] somebody that just needs a voice that
[27:46.040 -> 27:51.880] hasn't been heard before. What can we do better? I actually think sometimes just
[27:51.880 -> 27:56.920] being that role model and seeing them face to face has like an immense amount
[27:56.920 -> 28:01.520] of impact. It's weird I still remember when I was at school, Enterprise
[28:01.520 -> 28:05.520] charity came into the school and they had like this day where they'd bring in
[28:05.520 -> 28:08.360] like local professionals, you know, from around.
[28:08.360 -> 28:10.160] And there was literally a bank manager
[28:10.160 -> 28:12.480] who I spoke to for a long time asking,
[28:12.480 -> 28:13.760] what is it like to work at the bank?
[28:13.760 -> 28:14.600] How does it work?
[28:14.600 -> 28:15.920] How does that happen?
[28:15.920 -> 28:18.100] And I still remember, I don't remember
[28:18.100 -> 28:19.740] like the full conversation or his face,
[28:19.740 -> 28:22.000] but I remember the emotions that came with that
[28:22.000 -> 28:24.120] almost moment of going, oh, you know what,
[28:24.120 -> 28:26.480] actually there's this opportunity, there's opportunities,
[28:26.480 -> 28:27.320] there's things you can do.
[28:27.320 -> 28:29.160] And so I think, for me, that's always a big thing,
[28:29.160 -> 28:31.800] is be able to just be there in person
[28:31.800 -> 28:32.840] and be able to sort of say, look,
[28:32.840 -> 28:34.800] you can achieve this and that inspiration.
[28:34.800 -> 28:37.300] And I think the other thing that, for me,
[28:37.300 -> 28:39.720] I think is really important is actually just access
[28:39.720 -> 28:43.600] to opportunity, because I'd say so often,
[28:43.600 -> 28:46.120] there's this expectation that when you bring a young
[28:46.120 -> 28:50.160] person they have to work in certain ways but like for me what works so well is
[28:50.160 -> 28:54.720] being given that creative space and a challenge and I say you know a way to
[28:54.720 -> 28:58.140] advocate the next generation is to if you've got a challenge just say okay go
[28:58.140 -> 29:01.720] and solve that go and do this for me and look you'll be shocked at the different
[29:01.720 -> 29:05.680] responses or solutions to that challenge.
[29:05.680 -> 29:07.880] And I'm sorry to butt in, because the story is amazing.
[29:07.880 -> 29:11.520] But the thing that leaps out to me is that even me, right,
[29:11.520 -> 29:12.600] trying to set up a business, Ben,
[29:12.600 -> 29:15.040] I follow the script that other people have written for me.
[29:15.040 -> 29:16.400] And I go, right, what is the thing?
[29:16.400 -> 29:17.760] Right, I do that.
[29:17.760 -> 29:21.200] You're doing things that no one's ever done before.
[29:21.200 -> 29:23.040] I'd love to know, A, where it came from,
[29:23.040 -> 29:29.240] and B, how you had the bravery to kind of give it a go if you if you see what I mean
[29:29.240 -> 29:32.520] This is such a unusual and fascinating route for people to hear
[29:32.760 -> 29:36.920] I'd say I think it stems from like I was saying earlier this idea that my
[29:37.080 -> 29:41.080] parents always set challenges and almost been a bit like I'll just solve that challenge and
[29:41.400 -> 29:42.200] For me, you know
[29:42.200 -> 29:46.080] I saw that as a challenge of being being a bit like, I was literally about two years
[29:46.080 -> 29:48.480] too late to not have this law that changed
[29:48.480 -> 29:49.680] the education to 18.
[29:49.680 -> 29:51.080] So I have in back of my mind, I'm like,
[29:51.080 -> 29:54.360] I'm literally just missed this, there must be a way.
[29:54.360 -> 29:56.440] And for me, instead of just, I'm not the sort of guy
[29:56.440 -> 29:58.600] to read the answers, I wanna read the question
[29:58.600 -> 30:00.320] and find an answer myself.
[30:00.320 -> 30:02.960] And so I literally was calling up colleges,
[30:02.960 -> 30:04.600] these education places, and be like,
[30:04.600 -> 30:05.660] look, this is what I want to do.
[30:05.660 -> 30:07.380] I was like, just give me one day a week,
[30:07.380 -> 30:08.840] I'll do, you know, part-time,
[30:08.840 -> 30:09.960] and I just want to make it work.
[30:09.960 -> 30:12.460] And eventually found a college in Kent who said,
[30:12.460 -> 30:15.180] yeah, you know what, we can make that work.
[30:15.180 -> 30:17.340] But yeah, I think the key thing is just,
[30:17.340 -> 30:18.640] I never take the answers.
[30:18.640 -> 30:19.960] And that even applies right now
[30:19.960 -> 30:21.820] when we're now growing my new company is,
[30:21.820 -> 30:23.140] someone's like, that's how it works.
[30:23.140 -> 30:24.500] I'm like, is it though?
[30:24.500 -> 30:27.800] And I always question it, probably piss people off actually by doing that as well.
[30:28.080 -> 30:31.360] But at the same time, I think for me, that's always something I've
[30:31.560 -> 30:32.920] strived myself and been able to do.
[30:33.320 -> 30:35.240] But what about your peer group as well, Ben?
[30:35.280 -> 30:39.160] You've got your mates that are maybe on this path of education of, I'll do my A
[30:39.160 -> 30:43.760] levels or consider university or wherever they go into employment.
[30:44.320 -> 30:49.160] What were they saying and responding to when you, when you forge in this,
[30:49.200 -> 30:50.200] this new territory?
[30:50.560 -> 30:52.320] I'd say to be honest, if you're on reflection,
[30:52.360 -> 30:54.760] it probably disconnected me quite a lot from my peer group.
[30:55.160 -> 30:59.160] And so I'd have like some real close friends who have known all of my life.
[30:59.160 -> 31:02.640] And even like now, you know, Vestal are really close friends of mine,
[31:03.040 -> 31:06.920] but then a lot of like your usual school friends, you know, people who maybe
[31:06.920 -> 31:11.400] you're not best friends with, but you, you get on well with them at a distance
[31:11.400 -> 31:16.520] from them just naturally because there was a difference, you know, and not
[31:16.520 -> 31:19.240] saying one was right or wrong, but, you know, taking different paths where
[31:19.240 -> 31:20.800] it was with them and so on.
[31:20.800 -> 31:23.160] So yeah, naturally there was that.
[31:23.720 -> 31:25.880] And I've actually almost after doing
[31:25.880 -> 31:29.440] that almost made a lot of new friends of people who, you know, are entrepreneurs or people
[31:29.440 -> 31:34.000] who have met, um, just for going to events and that sort of thing. So I definitely say
[31:34.000 -> 31:36.800] it disconnected me from the peer group of friends at that time.
[31:36.800 -> 31:39.200] And did you ever experience any bullying?
[31:39.200 -> 31:44.480] Yeah. So actually from a really young age, um, I had it. So like, even when I was a member
[31:44.480 -> 31:45.520] in primary school, when I started the company, first of all young age, I had it. So, like, even when I was, I remember in primary school,
[31:45.520 -> 31:48.040] when I started the company, first of all,
[31:48.040 -> 31:51.200] I actually went to this, like, bullying day in London.
[31:51.200 -> 31:53.480] It was, like, for people who are being bullied and stuff,
[31:53.480 -> 31:56.480] and it was basically because I was always that kid in class
[31:56.480 -> 31:57.320] who would annoy everyone,
[31:57.320 -> 31:59.320] because I'd be asking loads of questions.
[31:59.320 -> 32:01.280] Like, for example, if a teacher would go,
[32:01.280 -> 32:02.800] okay, this is how this works,
[32:02.800 -> 32:03.960] you mix this chemical with this,
[32:03.960 -> 32:05.920] and you get this explosion, whatever.
[32:05.920 -> 32:08.320] I'd be like, but what in that chemical does it to this?
[32:08.320 -> 32:09.160] Or how does it do that?
[32:09.160 -> 32:11.820] And I know it would annoy people and so on.
[32:11.820 -> 32:14.240] And on the fletch, I can probably see why now.
[32:14.240 -> 32:16.840] But for me, that was how I learned by asking questions.
[32:16.840 -> 32:19.680] And it did, even from a really young age,
[32:19.680 -> 32:21.320] people used to get really annoyed of it.
[32:21.320 -> 32:23.720] So how did you learn to cope with bullying then, Ben?
[32:23.720 -> 32:28.720] There was actually this analogy they gave at this day thing in London that for
[32:28.720 -> 32:32.840] me I still remember and it was called like this ice mountain. It was this idea
[32:32.840 -> 32:36.200] that you know people can like get up a mountain and so on but if it's icy you just
[32:36.200 -> 32:40.560] fall back down and and that was something from that young age so I always
[32:40.560 -> 32:42.920] had to think about it you know if there's ever any an issue they'd be
[32:42.920 -> 32:45.720] trying to climb up the mountain you know they've got a pickaxe and get a little way up,
[32:45.720 -> 32:47.080] eventually you just slide back down
[32:47.080 -> 32:49.640] and you can don't really let them get to you.
[32:49.640 -> 32:50.720] That's more like a visual,
[32:50.720 -> 32:53.120] a miment sort of a mindset thing to go,
[32:53.120 -> 32:55.320] never let them get up your mountain.
[32:55.320 -> 32:57.240] And actually more recently,
[32:57.240 -> 32:58.960] a girl called Alison, again,
[32:58.960 -> 33:01.400] who's someone who's been around for years and years.
[33:01.400 -> 33:03.600] I know she's on the circle as well of this.
[33:03.600 -> 33:06.160] And so she always said to me,
[33:06.160 -> 33:09.880] look, if people are saying these things to you,
[33:09.880 -> 33:13.040] that actually you don't become successful
[33:13.040 -> 33:16.280] or make a real difference about somebody in the world
[33:16.280 -> 33:17.960] having a problem with that.
[33:17.960 -> 33:19.960] And she was like, and she literally go back
[33:19.960 -> 33:22.280] to some of the greatest people in history
[33:22.280 -> 33:24.960] who made some of the greatest impact ever.
[33:24.960 -> 33:25.000] There's always a group of people who were against that. And so she always actually really put it well to me some of the greatest people in history who made some of the greatest impact ever.
[33:25.000 -> 33:27.520] There's always a group of people who were against that.
[33:27.520 -> 33:29.880] And so she always actually really put it well to me
[33:29.880 -> 33:32.520] and was like, you just need to, yes, listen to it
[33:32.520 -> 33:34.000] because sometimes there may be a point
[33:34.000 -> 33:35.200] you want to like address it,
[33:35.200 -> 33:36.640] but also at the same time,
[33:36.640 -> 33:39.260] realize that if you're doing something that's uncomfortable,
[33:39.260 -> 33:41.840] sometimes that actually can be positive.
[33:41.840 -> 33:43.280] It can be lonely as well though, can't it?
[33:43.280 -> 33:45.320] And I taught from the same experience Ben of
[33:45.320 -> 33:46.760] struggling with bullying at school and
[33:46.760 -> 33:49.120] having to move schools up like what got
[33:49.120 -> 33:51.480] me was that loneliness that crushing
[33:51.480 -> 33:54.120] loneliness when I can still I can get
[33:54.120 -> 33:55.600] the feeling immediately when I imagine
[33:55.600 -> 33:57.040] my mum's car pulling away from the
[33:57.040 -> 33:59.080] school gates turning around and thinking
[33:59.080 -> 34:03.760] okay in we go. I now say that just
[34:03.760 -> 34:04.800] because something is hard for you it
[34:04.800 -> 34:06.160] isn't necessarily bad for you
[34:06.160 -> 34:08.920] I don't know whether that speaks to you as well. Yeah, I'd say
[34:09.520 -> 34:13.340] Reflections like a great thing. Well, I'm right now. I'm a bit like yes, you know what?
[34:13.340 -> 34:15.560] I think it made me the person I am today
[34:15.640 -> 34:20.060] but I can still vividly remember times when because I
[34:20.640 -> 34:28.700] Disconnected myself from my peers and maybe I wanted to go to the cinema or go out that night I'd be sitting at home and nobody would want to go out because
[34:28.700 -> 34:32.060] I haven't connected with them for a long time or they felt like we're very
[34:32.060 -> 34:35.540] different and so on and I remember sitting there and you feel like really lonely
[34:35.540 -> 34:40.760] really isolated and and so I definitely the emotion at the time was horrible but
[34:40.760 -> 34:44.380] I think again this is maybe the idea about closing the chapters I'm now almost
[34:44.380 -> 34:47.680] a bit like actually but now I'm in a place where you know really
[34:47.680 -> 34:52.200] happy I've I've also learned to really support my mental health a lot more and
[34:52.200 -> 34:56.820] I think that comes down to the idea that entrepreneurship is in like the business
[34:56.820 -> 35:00.560] hierarchical map you're at the top where you can't go to your colleague and go
[35:00.560 -> 35:03.880] off at a really stressful day because people are looking to you to be that
[35:03.880 -> 35:08.580] constant metronome in the business. So I then had to really
[35:08.580 -> 35:13.780] invest in my mental health and find ways to help me vent or process
[35:13.780 -> 35:20.380] things and so on. Would you mind sharing those? Yes, so for me actually one thing I
[35:20.380 -> 35:23.980] do quite a lot of is a float tank where literally you go into these pods, these
[35:23.980 -> 35:28.880] salt waters and just shut it and just like relax. My mind, like I'm always thinking
[35:28.880 -> 35:32.720] and I remember like I've done various, I still actually do like therapy like once a month and
[35:32.720 -> 35:37.520] for me that's a constant way to be on top of things and even then I remember the therapist
[35:37.520 -> 35:42.880] was like shut your eyes and think about something and it's like put your feet on the floor and then
[35:42.880 -> 35:47.020] she went what do you think about and I said oh I was thinking about my socks and where they're made and how
[35:47.020 -> 35:50.000] they got to the country and the whole journey they've been on and she was like
[35:50.000 -> 35:54.520] oh your mind is up really active I said yeah I'm just constantly thinking and so
[35:54.520 -> 35:58.000] for me I think the float tanks work so well because they literally shut off
[35:58.000 -> 36:01.280] your senses like you're in this dark room you're floating so you're not like
[36:01.280 -> 36:08.880] feel like you're touching anything solid. There's no light, no sound, nothing and sometimes you fall asleep, sometimes you just
[36:08.880 -> 36:12.280] remember things you haven't done but I'd always come away from that and
[36:12.280 -> 36:16.440] especially, even for as far as the next week I'd feel like really clear and like
[36:16.440 -> 36:21.480] baggage is off my mind. I think sometimes people will look at people with a brain
[36:21.480 -> 36:24.280] like yours and think oh that must be lovely to be thinking of so many things
[36:24.280 -> 36:25.200] all the time.
[36:26.240 -> 36:27.880] But actually, from the conversations we've had,
[36:27.880 -> 36:30.040] it can be a very frustrating experience
[36:30.040 -> 36:32.200] because life doesn't move as fast as you.
[36:32.200 -> 36:33.960] Other people don't move as fast as you.
[36:33.960 -> 36:36.940] And I would imagine that you are searching
[36:36.940 -> 36:40.200] for big answers to huge global problems
[36:40.200 -> 36:42.640] and you're probably frustrated on a daily basis
[36:42.640 -> 36:44.460] that you're unable to find those answers.
[36:44.460 -> 36:45.840] Yeah, definitely.
[36:45.840 -> 36:47.680] For me, I had to learn,
[36:47.680 -> 36:50.720] even in my management style with people,
[36:50.720 -> 36:52.480] is that when I first started,
[36:52.480 -> 36:54.720] I did unrealistic expectation.
[36:54.720 -> 36:56.080] Like, oh, that takes five minutes,
[36:56.080 -> 36:57.360] that takes this, that takes that.
[36:57.360 -> 36:58.960] Oh, yeah, you can easily do that.
[36:58.960 -> 37:03.360] And I had to really learn and teach myself
[37:03.360 -> 37:05.000] that that's not the job of the manager.
[37:05.000 -> 37:08.400] You know, if the idea is so great, then maybe you have to grow the company and
[37:08.400 -> 37:11.160] have people who can look at that or I need to look at myself and so on.
[37:11.160 -> 37:14.760] But yeah, I did have this unbiased expectation that people need to be
[37:14.760 -> 37:15.960] working at that pace.
[37:15.960 -> 37:18.720] And it got me in some tricky situations where, you know, people would be like,
[37:18.720 -> 37:21.480] look, I'm sorry, but that's just, we're not able to do that.
[37:21.480 -> 37:22.960] That's just not how we work and so on.
[37:22.960 -> 37:29.040] And, and yeah, so I've had a big learning curve to go through for that. And even right now, would you mind sharing a specific
[37:29.040 -> 37:33.280] story of that? Yeah, definitely. Going back to maybe not the website where we were doing
[37:33.840 -> 37:40.000] company obviously before. So in with that, like I would look at it and be able to look at like a
[37:40.000 -> 37:44.640] brief and go, let's put this here, let's do that there and this there, that there. Whereas you
[37:44.640 -> 37:46.040] didn't get the other side of even types of people who go, okay, let's put this here, let's put that there, and this there, that there. Whereas, you then get the other side of,
[37:46.040 -> 37:47.260] different types of people who go, okay,
[37:47.260 -> 37:49.680] let's do a full like, surveys of people,
[37:49.680 -> 37:52.080] let's chat about people's views on this company
[37:52.080 -> 37:53.760] and how we can go against it,
[37:53.760 -> 37:55.120] and almost do like a full like,
[37:55.120 -> 37:56.960] pages and pages of mood boards and ideas
[37:56.960 -> 37:58.080] and strategy and so on.
[37:58.080 -> 38:01.200] So we're like two complete extremes on the spectrum.
[38:01.200 -> 38:03.680] And there are people in my team who'd be like that
[38:03.680 -> 38:04.680] and want to do this full,
[38:04.680 -> 38:09.520] and I get really frustrated at that, because I'd be like, we just need to get this going and moving.
[38:09.520 -> 38:14.720] And there'll be times where and I think this is why having the guy Roger said earlier at the club
[38:14.720 -> 38:20.800] 1860, but having him was so good for me because I could go to him and I could like speak my mind and
[38:20.800 -> 38:26.800] say, why is this taking so long? Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? And he would then be able to help me process that
[38:26.800 -> 38:30.120] in a closed environment and not then bring it out
[38:30.120 -> 38:32.160] to the rest of the team and start and so on.
[38:32.160 -> 38:34.160] So I think that really helped me to learn,
[38:34.160 -> 38:36.840] to see how to then translate that
[38:36.840 -> 38:38.800] into a way that's not going to annoy people.
[38:38.800 -> 38:41.640] You're somebody that has incredible levels
[38:41.640 -> 38:43.680] of self-awareness just listening to you
[38:43.680 -> 38:48.520] and the fact that you've been able to reflect on this. What advice would you give to anyone
[38:48.520 -> 38:52.040] listening to this then Ben about how they can raise their own levels of
[38:52.040 -> 38:56.160] self-awareness even if they're not an entrepreneur or they're working in a
[38:56.160 -> 39:00.480] business and also if you could explain the benefits of doing that.
[39:00.480 -> 39:04.400] Yeah I would say for me like reflection is the big thing I say the float tanks
[39:04.400 -> 39:09.400] that's for me how I do that I like reflect on my week or my day and what I've done. But I think
[39:09.400 -> 39:13.680] the key thing about all of that is to have an end time. So that's why for me I love the
[39:13.680 -> 39:18.480] float tanks because they're an hour and that's it, you're done. And so it stops it going
[39:18.480 -> 39:22.840] on and there are some people who I meet and who will be still thinking about something
[39:22.840 -> 39:28.640] a month, six months, whatever later about that. And I think actually it's really important when you
[39:28.640 -> 39:32.600] still have that self-awareness but also be able to say actually now, now is the
[39:32.600 -> 39:36.880] next step, now I need to overcome that and actually start that next chapter. And
[39:36.880 -> 39:41.560] so for me having that time box moments will be my way of tackling that.
[39:41.560 -> 39:46.000] And what are the great benefits that come from that self-reflection?
[39:46.000 -> 39:48.600] Yeah, I'd say you are your biggest cynic
[39:48.600 -> 39:49.840] and like, you know, there are things
[39:49.840 -> 39:52.360] which I will say to myself and I'd be like,
[39:52.360 -> 39:55.640] oh, you are so like, not in that conversation
[39:55.640 -> 39:56.840] or you are so this and so that.
[39:56.840 -> 39:59.560] And I really, sometimes I really beat myself down
[39:59.560 -> 40:04.560] and like, but then I also think as long as I've been new,
[40:04.720 -> 40:07.480] second I've stopped that, second that time limit's ended,
[40:07.480 -> 40:08.880] you don't let that drag on, you know,
[40:08.880 -> 40:11.160] okay, take a deep breath and off you go.
[40:11.160 -> 40:13.520] That would be the biggest way I'd almost get
[40:13.520 -> 40:14.840] through those thoughts.
[40:14.840 -> 40:18.600] And the importance of therapy I'm interested in what,
[40:18.600 -> 40:22.280] was there a moment that triggered your desire
[40:22.280 -> 40:26.280] to go to therapy or did you just have a need?
[40:26.280 -> 40:30.240] Yeah, so for me, mental health is something
[40:30.240 -> 40:34.420] that I learned about probably in quite a tough way
[40:34.420 -> 40:37.120] where I had family members and one of my best friends
[40:37.120 -> 40:39.480] who's a really successful entrepreneur,
[40:39.480 -> 40:40.900] really struggled with mental health.
[40:40.900 -> 40:44.640] And it led to me really seeing, unfortunately,
[40:44.640 -> 40:45.040] the extreme sides of mental health and really going like me really seeing unfortunately some of the extreme
[40:45.040 -> 40:49.360] sides of mental health and really going like actually you know what it's
[40:49.360 -> 40:53.200] something that we don't talk about enough it's something that I think
[40:53.200 -> 40:57.640] there's still this like taboo on therapy and even for me that I'd literally
[40:57.640 -> 41:00.800] be talking about looking after your mental health but not doing anything
[41:00.800 -> 41:06.000] like this for me personally. You know nobody is like got nothing going on.
[41:06.000 -> 41:07.640] The mental health is not you have it or you don't.
[41:07.640 -> 41:10.080] It's about, for me, it's that baggage.
[41:10.080 -> 41:11.880] It's that things you're carrying
[41:11.880 -> 41:13.760] and I've gone on day to day.
[41:13.760 -> 41:15.400] And so I said to myself, right,
[41:15.400 -> 41:16.240] I'm gonna push that challenge.
[41:16.240 -> 41:18.400] I'm just gonna start going to a therapist
[41:18.400 -> 41:20.360] and just make it like every now and then.
[41:20.360 -> 41:22.000] And I was really nervous going in
[41:22.000 -> 41:28.320] and more nervous of the idea that what if I find out something that I don't know or like what if I get told
[41:28.320 -> 41:31.600] something and I think I realized actually that's not the job of therapy
[41:31.600 -> 41:34.880] the job of a therapist is not to say you're thinking this or you are this
[41:34.880 -> 41:41.000] it's just to let you process your thoughts and ask those questions and
[41:41.000 -> 41:47.520] honestly the the impact that's had on me being able to like just close chapters or reflect
[41:47.520 -> 41:49.920] or just like just to be at peace with myself
[41:49.920 -> 41:51.680] if I feel like I've lost a client
[41:51.680 -> 41:53.240] and just instead of holding that in,
[41:53.240 -> 41:55.080] just being able to just to talk about that,
[41:55.080 -> 41:56.320] the therapist probably sitting there thinking,
[41:56.320 -> 41:58.120] oh my word, he's just rabbiting on for an hour.
[41:58.120 -> 42:00.640] But at the end of it, I always thought,
[42:00.640 -> 42:03.080] you know what, actually, I just feel so free.
[42:03.080 -> 42:05.560] And yeah, it's a hard one to explain.
[42:05.560 -> 42:06.560] I think the impact of therapy,
[42:06.560 -> 42:08.800] I think it's something that I'd always say to anybody,
[42:08.800 -> 42:11.200] like it's worth just giving it a go
[42:11.200 -> 42:12.080] and just witnessing that.
[42:12.080 -> 42:14.240] And I think I'm always been a big believer
[42:14.240 -> 42:16.680] and part of work I've been doing from the age of 18
[42:16.680 -> 42:19.800] is just trying to say, it's not an unwell
[42:19.800 -> 42:21.800] and how can we treat you situation with therapy?
[42:21.800 -> 42:25.040] It's about helping you to be the best you can be
[42:25.040 -> 42:28.680] and sort of releasing and just process your thoughts.
[42:28.680 -> 42:31.520] So are there any techniques that you've picked up in therapy
[42:31.520 -> 42:34.780] that you now as a leader employ?
[42:34.780 -> 42:38.720] Yeah, I'd say the big question that initially
[42:38.720 -> 42:40.520] I'd always get asked in therapy would always,
[42:40.520 -> 42:43.240] and how does that make other people feel?
[42:43.240 -> 42:44.640] Cause I think it's so easy for you to say,
[42:44.640 -> 42:47.400] and I felt this about a situation, or I felt that.
[42:47.400 -> 42:49.760] Actually to be asked, yeah, but how did the person
[42:49.760 -> 42:52.840] who annoyed you feel when they were saying that?
[42:52.840 -> 42:54.200] And I think that's probably the biggest thing
[42:54.200 -> 42:56.560] that made me apply that into managerial skills
[42:56.560 -> 42:59.240] and so on, is actually, yes, I may be getting
[42:59.240 -> 43:01.400] into a heated discussion about whatever it might be,
[43:01.400 -> 43:04.560] but then suddenly my brain will click and go,
[43:04.560 -> 43:07.020] hang on a minute, I know I'm gonna get asked in a couple of weeks how did they
[43:07.020 -> 43:10.360] feel about this and then then suddenly I think about that and actually helps me
[43:10.360 -> 43:13.700] get through a lot. And what message would you give to teachers Ben? We get an
[43:13.700 -> 43:18.400] incredible number of teachers that listen to this podcast and I'm sitting
[43:18.400 -> 43:23.800] here thinking well you are a real rarity right? So either there aren't many people
[43:23.800 -> 43:26.420] on the earth like you or we're not
[43:26.420 -> 43:30.860] very good at allowing people like you to flourish and there's a high possibility
[43:30.860 -> 43:35.460] that it's the latter isn't it? Yeah I think for me I learned, for me being in a
[43:35.460 -> 43:39.340] classroom learning from a textbook I struggled with massively because like I
[43:39.340 -> 43:42.620] say I like to ask questions and find my own answers but if the answers are in a
[43:42.620 -> 43:48.360] book then I just really really struggled to concentrate and do that. And so the classes I would
[43:48.360 -> 43:53.320] like excel at are the classes where it'd be okay go and research into this topic or
[43:53.320 -> 43:57.040] go and do this and come back. Is that a flaw in education? I think it's a hard
[43:57.040 -> 44:02.120] one because everyone learns differently but what I do think from my side of
[44:02.120 -> 44:05.560] things there should have been more diverse ways of learning
[44:05.560 -> 44:08.200] and to allow people to find out how they learn
[44:08.200 -> 44:09.280] at such an early age.
[44:09.280 -> 44:11.020] I think we almost go through this point
[44:11.020 -> 44:12.020] where from a really young age,
[44:12.020 -> 44:15.160] we try to put everyone down the same learning process
[44:15.160 -> 44:18.320] until you reach like 16 and maybe you didn't get GCSEs
[44:18.320 -> 44:19.920] and then now we're thinking, oh my word, okay,
[44:19.920 -> 44:22.520] do we need to think about a different college situation
[44:22.520 -> 44:24.400] or a different sort of situation there?
[44:24.400 -> 44:28.800] But I think actually, it's like this level of self-awareness people should be taught
[44:28.800 -> 44:31.640] at a really young age you know like maybe primary school, secondary school I don't know
[44:31.640 -> 44:36.800] the right time sort of from a science point of view there but how they learn best and
[44:36.800 -> 44:42.000] what helps you to flourish then that should be encouraged because in reality the time
[44:42.000 -> 44:47.900] you spend doing something which you you're really good at, or is not how your brain thinks, yes, it can help maybe in certain parts,
[44:47.900 -> 44:51.700] but I also think it can hold back you flourishing in the part you're great at.
[44:51.700 -> 44:55.100] And I sometimes think we're guilty, as many people are,
[44:55.100 -> 44:58.200] coming up with all the answers for people that work in the education sector, right?
[44:58.200 -> 45:00.000] The truth is, if you're a teacher,
[45:00.000 -> 45:02.800] you can only operate in the parameters that you're given, right?
[45:02.800 -> 45:05.400] You have to stick to the curriculum work in the school system
[45:05.480 -> 45:07.240] all of those things
[45:07.240 -> 45:11.040] But at the same time there is freedom within that so
[45:11.480 -> 45:16.680] Without a teacher being able to totally change the way education operates in this country because one person alone can't do that
[45:17.240 -> 45:21.760] For teachers in the current system. What would you like to see them do more of if you were to just give them?
[45:22.400 -> 45:23.440] one
[45:23.440 -> 45:25.200] Pearl of wisdom from the life that you've
[45:25.200 -> 45:26.200] lived.
[45:26.200 -> 45:32.320] I would say it's about making a conscious effort about to just to try to do different
[45:32.320 -> 45:37.620] topics delivered in different ways and actually to mix things around a lot more consciously
[45:37.620 -> 45:40.320] and actually explain why you're doing it and not just do it.
[45:40.320 -> 45:44.360] But I think actually it's about saying to the people that you know what I've tried to
[45:44.360 -> 45:46.200] do it in this method this week.
[45:46.200 -> 45:47.760] How, let's reflect on that.
[45:47.760 -> 45:50.960] How did you find this method compared to the other methods?
[45:50.960 -> 45:53.680] And then that helped people have that self-awareness of,
[45:53.680 -> 45:55.760] oh, that's actually the sort of person I am.
[45:55.760 -> 45:57.560] That's how I'm going to reach, you know,
[45:57.560 -> 45:58.960] the peak of my performance, you know,
[45:58.960 -> 46:00.040] growing up when I'm older,
[46:00.040 -> 46:02.720] because I've learned from a really young age,
[46:02.720 -> 46:06.200] that's the way that I find, you know, that rhythm.
[46:06.200 -> 46:09.000] So can I ask you a final question on this, Ben,
[46:09.000 -> 46:12.240] that takes you back to one of your earlier responses
[46:12.240 -> 46:15.160] that you gave us when you described at 11 years of age
[46:15.160 -> 46:17.320] that you just lost hours
[46:17.320 -> 46:20.000] when you were sort of working on building websites
[46:20.000 -> 46:22.680] and the American author, a guy called Daniel Coyle
[46:22.680 -> 46:24.960] calls it the mouth open moment.
[46:24.960 -> 46:25.000] You know, when you see a calls it the mouth open moment.
[46:25.000 -> 46:27.720] You know, when you see a kid and the mouth is just in awe
[46:27.720 -> 46:28.800] at whatever they're watching,
[46:28.800 -> 46:29.640] and that's where, you know,
[46:29.640 -> 46:32.120] their passion, their interest lies.
[46:32.120 -> 46:33.400] As you've sort of gone through
[46:33.400 -> 46:36.040] on this entrepreneurial journey,
[46:36.040 -> 46:37.400] have you had any other moments
[46:37.400 -> 46:40.280] where you've discovered other passions
[46:40.280 -> 46:43.400] that are as deep as that first moment you had at 11?
[46:43.400 -> 46:44.840] I'm not going to sit here and say, you know,
[46:44.840 -> 46:47.280] everything to do with business and entrepreneurship is amazing.
[46:47.280 -> 46:48.880] And I'd happily do it till two in the morning.
[46:48.880 -> 46:51.640] There are tasks you have to do where you don't like that.
[46:51.640 -> 46:54.320] And I think I then had to learn in my day,
[46:54.320 -> 46:56.120] the things that are like a mouth opening moments,
[46:56.120 -> 46:57.760] the things that I absolutely get real passionate
[46:57.760 -> 46:59.080] and just get lost in,
[46:59.080 -> 47:00.240] to do them at the end of the day
[47:00.240 -> 47:01.080] when I'm best at doing that.
[47:01.080 -> 47:03.200] And the things that I just have to do
[47:03.200 -> 47:07.320] because it's part of the job per se, get done in the morning when I'm just very transactional in
[47:07.320 -> 47:11.240] how I work and my mindset is kind of sort of getting going.
[47:11.240 -> 47:16.320] Other things I think yeah for me like current company now is really focused on community
[47:16.320 -> 47:20.880] inclusion, helping people come together at work and that sort of thing really is a big
[47:20.880 -> 47:21.880] passion for mine.
[47:21.880 -> 47:27.320] That you know that I'd say the ability to be able to see people come together and connect, I'll happily spend hours
[47:27.320 -> 47:28.880] and hours without even looking at the clock,
[47:28.880 -> 47:31.160] just thinking about ways we can improve the product
[47:31.160 -> 47:33.920] to make it help more people
[47:33.920 -> 47:35.480] and support people in their journey.
[47:35.480 -> 47:38.800] It's probably a skill in finding what those things are
[47:38.800 -> 47:41.920] and doing those activities at the right time
[47:41.920 -> 47:44.960] when you can really flourish and put your all into it.
[47:44.960 -> 47:51.880] Before we move on to our quickfire questions Ben, and obviously you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I just get this sense that
[47:52.800 -> 47:54.800] Yours isn't one of impatience, right?
[47:55.080 -> 48:01.600] You're you started early and you have the drive and the energy like you're just beginning today, right?
[48:01.760 -> 48:05.820] You're still in your early 20s and you're pushing as hard as ever, but I don't think it's impatience.
[48:05.820 -> 48:07.040] I kind of get this impression
[48:07.040 -> 48:09.920] from the last almost hour that we've spoken
[48:09.920 -> 48:13.560] is that you seem to have this feeling
[48:13.560 -> 48:16.940] that opportunities are there to be found.
[48:16.940 -> 48:18.140] Opportunities aren't something
[48:18.140 -> 48:20.000] that is going to get given to you.
[48:20.000 -> 48:22.800] Like you're fighting for this rather than,
[48:22.800 -> 48:25.200] you're not just being open, right? Which some people are, which is great, but you're fighting for this rather than, you're not just being open, right?
[48:25.200 -> 48:26.600] Which some people are, which is great,
[48:26.600 -> 48:28.960] but you're actively searching.
[48:28.960 -> 48:30.440] Is that fair?
[48:30.440 -> 48:31.280] Yeah, definitely.
[48:31.280 -> 48:32.760] I'd say that's bang on for me.
[48:32.760 -> 48:36.340] And that's why, if somebody says that's a solution,
[48:36.340 -> 48:39.000] my mind is always, is that the best solution?
[48:39.000 -> 48:42.080] Or is that just what society tells us is that solution?
[48:42.080 -> 48:44.440] And don't get me wrong, that does annoy people.
[48:44.440 -> 48:46.320] And I'm not going to sit here and say that you know
[48:46.320 -> 48:50.440] That's always the best approach to everything, but I'd like to think that's helped me
[48:51.120 -> 48:56.300] Progress a company at such a young age because I'm unable to go well, why have you always done things in that way?
[48:56.300 -> 48:59.520] Why do why can't we question the fact that's the norm?
[48:59.840 -> 49:05.120] So are there any times or when you just decide questioning isn't the way forward?
[49:05.120 -> 49:08.640] I'm thinking of like the Toyota method is the five whys,
[49:08.640 -> 49:12.480] so you get to the heart of what you're really trying to achieve.
[49:12.480 -> 49:14.640] And it sounds that that's a lot of what you're doing.
[49:14.640 -> 49:16.720] Why do we do that? Why do we do that?
[49:16.720 -> 49:18.640] But are there any moments where you just decide,
[49:19.200 -> 49:22.160] I'm just going to accept conventional wisdom,
[49:22.160 -> 49:24.880] that that's the best way and we'll just get on with it?
[49:24.880 -> 49:25.040] I can't make any specific moments, And we'll just get on with it.
[49:27.340 -> 49:30.580] I can't make any specific moments, but I definitely have learned to do it. I think that's also been part of me, my mental
[49:30.580 -> 49:33.740] health to go actually, I also need to realise, you know,
[49:33.740 -> 49:37.280] we've got a team, and we need to empower individuals to everyone
[49:37.280 -> 49:39.580] works different. I'm not saying I'm right and they're wrong at
[49:39.580 -> 49:42.860] all. Everyone's different views. Everyone's different approaches
[49:42.860 -> 49:46.080] to everything. And so I've also learned, you know what,
[49:46.080 -> 49:48.960] sometimes if I feel really passionate about it,
[49:48.960 -> 49:51.040] yeah, I will quiz the YMY,
[49:51.040 -> 49:54.040] but also the role of a great manager,
[49:54.040 -> 49:56.800] or even like any size, manager, coach, anything,
[49:56.800 -> 49:59.840] the role of them is to be able to just actually say,
[49:59.840 -> 50:01.080] that's how you excel,
[50:01.080 -> 50:03.720] that's, you're bringing to this a level of experience.
[50:03.720 -> 50:06.080] So if you question everything, then you are gonna make mistakes, because I'm not saying that, you excel, that you're bringing to this level of experience so if you question everything then
[50:06.080 -> 50:10.960] you are gonna make mistakes because I'm not saying that you know for the last thousands of years that
[50:10.960 -> 50:16.080] things have been done in certain ways and that's wrong at all so we also need to be aware of
[50:17.360 -> 50:21.600] questioning yes you can ask why but you also have to know at what point do you stop and what point
[50:21.600 -> 50:26.840] do you go okay actually now we just carry on. Right, time for our quick fire questions, Ben.
[50:26.840 -> 50:30.020] The first one is the three non-negotiable behaviours
[50:30.020 -> 50:33.280] that you and the team around you must buy into.
[50:33.280 -> 50:36.520] I'd say it's speaking your mind, really important.
[50:36.520 -> 50:40.320] I hate sort of like sugarcoating things.
[50:40.320 -> 50:43.400] Second thing, being fully present, really.
[50:43.400 -> 50:44.920] But I hate people who are like texting
[50:44.920 -> 50:47.000] or like sort of not fully in a conversation.
[50:47.000 -> 50:49.720] You need to be there or don't be there.
[50:49.720 -> 50:53.800] And then I think the third one is people who know
[50:53.800 -> 50:56.480] how to make themselves the best they can be.
[50:56.480 -> 50:58.720] So if you know that to perform well at work,
[50:58.720 -> 51:01.160] you wanna go for a gym or go for a walk before work,
[51:01.160 -> 51:06.080] then do that and actually invest in yourself and your life.
[51:06.080 -> 51:07.720] People, oh yeah, I know I should be doing that,
[51:07.720 -> 51:09.600] but I don't, and I find that frustrating.
[51:09.600 -> 51:11.200] If you know you can do it and you've got facilities
[51:11.200 -> 51:15.040] to do it, I think you should be trying to do it.
[51:15.040 -> 51:17.720] How did you deal with your greatest failure?
[51:17.720 -> 51:20.520] I haven't had any like monumentous failures
[51:20.520 -> 51:22.560] where, you know, I haven't thankfully touched
[51:22.560 -> 51:23.680] where I've never had a situation, you know,
[51:23.680 -> 51:25.440] where like a company's massively failed
[51:25.440 -> 51:27.720] or they've had investors and I know some entrepreneurs
[51:27.720 -> 51:30.080] have had that horrific experience of having to explain
[51:30.080 -> 51:33.320] to investors, you know, we're not operating anymore.
[51:33.320 -> 51:35.200] For me, I think the biggest failures that come to mind
[51:35.200 -> 51:38.360] are probably more down to even losing big clients
[51:38.360 -> 51:39.200] and that sort of thing.
[51:39.200 -> 51:42.120] And I used to take it really personally.
[51:42.120 -> 51:44.720] And it used to really hit me hard and I'd be like,
[51:44.720 -> 51:45.300] what have I done wrong? Is it all me? And he used to, I used to really like hit me hard and I'd be like, what have I done
[51:45.300 -> 51:45.660] wrong?
[51:45.660 -> 51:46.280] Is it all me?
[51:46.280 -> 51:50.360] And I think then that I, like I mentioned earlier, that detachment from that home
[51:50.360 -> 51:53.920] and work was on my way of coping with that to go.
[51:53.920 -> 51:56.840] Yes, it can feel really hard in the office in the moment, you know, when you're
[51:56.840 -> 51:59.920] working, but I need to be able to then come away from that.
[52:00.600 -> 52:04.000] And, you know, for me, I play a lot of table tennis and that's like my way of
[52:04.200 -> 52:05.240] getting around that
[52:05.240 -> 52:08.820] because I see it as being like a metronome as well,
[52:08.820 -> 52:11.800] playing the ball, hitting back and forth, no phone.
[52:11.800 -> 52:14.720] And I'd always use that in a way to get through a real,
[52:14.720 -> 52:18.280] like bad moment, like a failure as a way to then,
[52:18.280 -> 52:19.960] like just think about the ball bouncing,
[52:19.960 -> 52:22.180] you go and play, and by the time I come back,
[52:22.180 -> 52:24.360] I'm now shut that chapter, I'm now thinking,
[52:24.360 -> 52:26.360] okay, how do I start the next one?
[52:26.360 -> 52:28.360] What's your biggest strength?
[52:28.360 -> 52:29.360] What's your greatest weakness?
[52:29.360 -> 52:32.360] For me I'd actually probably say it's both, it's the same thing.
[52:32.360 -> 52:35.440] I'd say my biggest strength is the fact that I'm always questioning why and always pushing
[52:35.440 -> 52:39.240] to know can we make that quicker, can we adjust it to do this a bit better.
[52:39.240 -> 52:44.160] I think that then has the greatest weakness is the fact that you can sometimes over question
[52:44.160 -> 52:48.280] things I believe and you can also annoy people and it might be
[52:48.280 -> 52:52.560] frustrating so I'm having to learn that balance. The other thing is I can
[52:52.560 -> 52:58.760] sometimes get really focused on a minor thing and like some people go okay let's
[52:58.760 -> 53:01.440] just get it on but for me I'm like no no we need to fix that why is that doing
[53:01.440 -> 53:07.340] this now like it's literally one word in an email I don't know we need to fix that. Why is that doing this? Now, like it's literally one word in an email. No, we need to make sure that's working and that's great.
[53:07.340 -> 53:09.900] So I think, yeah, probably two there, but.
[53:09.900 -> 53:12.060] How important is legacy to you?
[53:12.060 -> 53:13.260] When I think of what legacy,
[53:13.260 -> 53:17.100] I think of like somebody trying to leave a great name
[53:17.100 -> 53:18.060] for themselves.
[53:18.060 -> 53:21.140] For me, not as fast about like my name
[53:21.140 -> 53:23.860] and the legacy behind that.
[53:23.860 -> 53:25.760] The legacy of helping other people
[53:25.760 -> 53:26.960] who have been through the challenges
[53:26.960 -> 53:28.760] I've been through, really important.
[53:28.760 -> 53:31.320] And that's something that I mentioned earlier,
[53:31.320 -> 53:33.120] from a young age, starting a company,
[53:33.120 -> 53:35.160] I was breaking the norms every single day.
[53:35.160 -> 53:39.360] And I was meeting people who would stereotype young people
[53:39.360 -> 53:41.240] or would look negatively on that.
[53:41.240 -> 53:43.500] And so for me, I almost saw I had a duty
[53:43.500 -> 53:48.320] from a legacy point of view to turn around to them and say actually you know what this is how young people can
[53:48.320 -> 53:53.040] be great at that. There's one quick story about that where business banking you
[53:53.040 -> 53:57.160] have to be 18 in the UK to get a business bank account. I was 16 my
[53:57.160 -> 54:00.240] child's account was frozen which is actually how I was running my company
[54:00.240 -> 54:03.680] because I couldn't get the company account and I then lobbied the
[54:03.680 -> 54:07.220] government and I was like that is not right why are you having to be forced to
[54:07.220 -> 54:11.740] wait to 18 to start a company and the banks are having to advise use a child's
[54:11.740 -> 54:15.380] account which then goes against all these other systems all these other
[54:15.380 -> 54:18.360] advice have been given in the government's guidance and whatever so I
[54:18.360 -> 54:21.900] then said that's not right we need to change this long story short I became
[54:21.900 -> 54:29.640] the first person to get a business bank account whilst under the age of 18 and that literally changed the rules to that. I'm not going to say it's
[54:29.640 -> 54:32.480] still like high street level where you can walk there and get it, you have to like apply
[54:32.480 -> 54:38.360] and the banks will like review you and so on. But for me, that for me is like a moment
[54:38.360 -> 54:42.720] of pride of legacy where I can look back and go, other young people can now go and get
[54:42.720 -> 54:48.160] a bank account and not have the situation where they're being told by their bank, you cannot operate a company by freezing your
[54:48.160 -> 54:49.160] personal account.
[54:49.160 -> 54:53.560] And Ben, the final question is, and this is kind of your your last message really to the
[54:53.560 -> 54:59.120] listeners of this fascinating conversation. Your one golden rule to living a high performance
[54:59.120 -> 55:00.120] life.
[55:00.120 -> 55:05.360] For me, it's pausing and that reflection period within a locked time period.
[55:05.360 -> 55:07.120] So you say, I have an hour and that's me.
[55:07.120 -> 55:08.120] Everyone's different.
[55:08.120 -> 55:10.760] That's because I say, my brain's always thinking and moving.
[55:10.760 -> 55:14.760] So that moment of pause is opposite to how I think throughout the week.
[55:14.760 -> 55:16.720] And that's my way of doing that.
[55:16.720 -> 55:18.120] I think it's really interesting.
[55:18.120 -> 55:22.780] And look, I know that it's probably not the easiest life, right, to live with a brain
[55:22.780 -> 55:26.320] like yours, which is constantly almost forcing you to rethink and
[55:26.800 -> 55:30.720] reminding you every day that the answer is not necessarily the answer.
[55:31.440 -> 55:35.920] But I think you can be nothing but grateful to have a brain that works in that way because
[55:36.560 -> 55:37.440] the
[55:37.440 -> 55:41.600] the only people that have changed the world we live in are the people that don't accept the way the world is at the
[55:41.600 -> 55:43.600] moment and that's exactly what you're doing and
[55:44.160 -> 55:49.600] I really believe that that is such an inspiring and an inspirational conversation for for people
[55:49.600 -> 55:54.960] to listen to whatever age they're at, you know, it's a reminder that all of us have to understand
[55:54.960 -> 56:00.000] that the answer doesn't have to be the answer. So thank you so much. Well, thank you.
[56:03.840 -> 56:08.340] Damien, Jake, I keep coming back to that same thing in my head.
[56:08.340 -> 56:09.820] The answer is not the answer.
[56:09.820 -> 56:15.280] And actually, I'm now frustrated because he was sharp enough, bright enough, clever enough,
[56:15.280 -> 56:21.440] driven enough at 11 to realise the answer wasn't the answer.
[56:21.440 -> 56:22.880] And I'm 43.
[56:22.880 -> 56:27.080] And I've spent 43 years saying to myself, why is that the answer?
[56:27.080 -> 56:32.000] Rather than trying to solve the problem. And I think that is a great lesson for everyone
[56:32.000 -> 56:35.320] listening to this, not to accept what you're told, but to go and find the answer for yourself.
[56:35.320 -> 56:41.440] Yeah. And I think the real hero of Ben's story are his parents that nurtured and encouraged
[56:41.440 -> 56:47.240] that. They didn't just tell him to sit down, shut up and assume that his elders were wiser than him.
[56:47.560 -> 56:50.400] They asked him to go and question it in a respectful manner.
[56:50.440 -> 56:51.600] And I think we can all do that.
[56:51.600 -> 56:55.640] We can all take that and rethink what we assume we know,
[56:55.640 -> 56:58.000] how many of our lives are based on assumptions.
[56:58.360 -> 57:01.760] And if anyone is in any doubt about whether life is a team sport or not,
[57:02.360 -> 57:04.600] just listen to the things Ben says and he throws them away.
[57:04.600 -> 57:05.800] They're quite blasé from him.
[57:05.800 -> 57:08.360] He says, you know, I work with a 60 year old
[57:08.360 -> 57:09.920] and we called it Club 1860,
[57:09.920 -> 57:14.160] but there's a real sharp, bright, clever lesson there
[57:14.160 -> 57:16.400] for people that if you're going to build a team,
[57:16.400 -> 57:17.500] it's about getting the right people,
[57:17.500 -> 57:19.880] but also the people that fulfil the things
[57:19.880 -> 57:21.000] that you can't fulfil.
[57:21.000 -> 57:22.760] He couldn't be a 60 year old.
[57:22.760 -> 57:25.280] And that guy then just gave instant credibility to him. Yeah, oedd yn gallu bod yn 60 oed, ac yna roedd y ffyrdd o'r ffyrdd o'i gredigwyr.
[57:25.280 -> 57:30.320] Ie, rwy'n credu ei fod wedi, ond rwy'n credu, eto, arall gwybodaeth sy'n dod allan i mi
[57:30.320 -> 57:35.280] oedd y pweru o'r diogelwch. Y gwaith pan oedd wedi'i ddod allan gan y ddewis
[57:35.280 -> 57:39.600] sy'n cymryd cyfle i fod yn ysgol pan roedd yn ddangos ei bod yn gweithio.
[57:39.600 -> 57:43.440] Ac rhan o hyn, yn hytrach na'i ddweud ei fod yn cynnig a'i fod yn cynnig,
[57:43.440 -> 57:45.000] dyna'r naturiau dynol. Roedd yn sylwi'r byd oedd arnodd y byddai'n gyflawni'n gyflawni Part of it rather than blame her and be cynical that that's human nature
[57:49.140 -> 57:49.480] He realized that it was on him that he hadn't been completely honest and upfront
[57:53.440 -> 57:57.360] With his own employees about his young age and where he was on his journey And again, I think that's a good reminder for all of us about just be yourself
[57:57.360 -> 58:03.760] You know that old Esco wild quote be yourself. Everybody else is taken. Yeah, I love that and also accept others and
[58:04.200 -> 58:07.440] Be open-minded. I bet there's a string of people
[58:08.000 -> 58:13.340] Who had the opportunity to work with Ben that thought I'm not doing anything with a 12 year old and they are now the ones
[58:13.340 -> 58:19.500] Thinking ah, why I realize what that 12 year old could offer, you know, we all need to have an open mind as well
[58:19.500 -> 58:22.040] We need to explore and be open to the possibility that
[58:22.760 -> 58:24.760] Anyone can do anything. Yes, absolutely
[58:24.320 -> 58:30.000] explore and be open to the possibility that anyone can do anything. Yes, absolutely, and I think he was a really powerful example of it, and personally
[58:30.000 -> 58:33.440] I've taken away that message around being an advocate for young people as
[58:33.440 -> 58:37.680] well. You know, don't just see them as a tick box of feeling that because you've
[58:37.680 -> 58:41.760] invited them, that means that you've listened to them. It means actually invite
[58:41.760 -> 58:45.720] them, encourage them, and then listen to them. And I actually invite them,
[58:42.080 -> 58:47.160] encourage them, and then listen to them.
[58:45.720 -> 58:50.240] Toby Marris-Eisenstein And I've written down on a post-it note that
[58:47.160 -> 58:53.120] is on my desktop here. There's, there's
[58:50.240 -> 58:55.360] fish and chip shops everywhere. Because I
[58:53.120 -> 58:57.320] love the fact that, you know, some people
[58:55.360 -> 58:59.600] won't do things because there's already
[58:57.320 -> 59:01.040] loads of them existing. You've just got to
[58:59.600 -> 59:02.440] do the same thing that everyone else is
[59:01.040 -> 59:04.120] already doing, but do it better than them,
[59:02.440 -> 59:05.640] or do it different to them. Toby Marris-Eisenstein But it's like
[59:04.120 -> 59:05.840] your conversation that you had before we
[59:05.840 -> 59:09.080] started the High Performance Podcast where you reached out to Fern, you know,
[59:09.080 -> 59:13.640] where you said to her, is the market not saturated, is it not people that are
[59:13.640 -> 59:17.880] tired of podcasts and her answer was the same as what Ben was telling you, you
[59:17.880 -> 59:22.480] know, that there's a place for everybody as long as you're authentic and do it on
[59:22.480 -> 59:28.120] your own terms. What a great conversation, the power of rethinking, right?
[59:28.120 -> 59:28.960] Yeah, I loved it.
[59:28.960 -> 59:30.960] I thought I could see so many parallels, you know,
[59:30.960 -> 59:32.920] like our conversation with Ben Francis,
[59:32.920 -> 59:35.760] with Lewis Morgan, with AJ Tracy.
[59:35.760 -> 59:36.920] There was lots of parallels
[59:36.920 -> 59:39.240] with a lot of those young entrepreneurs
[59:39.240 -> 59:42.120] that have sort of found their own way.
[59:42.120 -> 59:44.560] And I think that there's almost a blueprint there
[59:44.560 -> 59:45.480] for all of us.
[59:45.480 -> 59:46.760] It's not saying there's a formula,
[59:46.760 -> 59:48.240] but there's a blueprint we can follow
[59:48.240 -> 59:51.840] that comes from authenticity, from curiosity,
[59:51.840 -> 59:54.360] and from bloody sheer-minded hard work.
[59:54.360 -> 59:55.280] Thanks, mate.
[59:55.280 -> 59:56.480] Thanks, mate, loved it.
[59:59.160 -> 01:00:00.000] Well, that's it.
[01:00:00.000 -> 01:00:01.480] As always, huge thanks to you for growing
[01:00:01.480 -> 01:00:03.960] and sharing this podcast among your communities.
[01:00:03.960 -> 01:00:08.880] Thanks very much to Dell Technologies and Microsoft for making this episode happen.
[01:00:08.880 -> 01:00:12.920] Remember Dell is a trusted advisor for small businesses. They offer dedicated technology
[01:00:12.920 -> 01:00:19.080] and solutions so you can find the right technology and advice to help your business grow. And
[01:00:19.080 -> 01:00:23.720] for all you small business owners listening, remember to let Dell Technologies help safeguard
[01:00:23.720 -> 01:00:25.360] your business with modern devices
[01:00:25.360 -> 01:00:30.380] and Windows 11 Pro so you can do more and we can all go forward together. I really hope
[01:00:30.380 -> 01:00:34.880] that you found this conversation with Ben Towers inspiring, uplifting and it makes you
[01:00:34.880 -> 01:00:41.200] realise that he's done it and you can, if you want to. Finally, don't forget to search
[01:00:41.200 -> 01:00:45.560] Dell Podfurance or visit dell.co.uk forward slash podference
[01:00:45.560 -> 01:00:47.080] if you want to find out more.
[01:00:47.080 -> 01:00:48.400] But thanks very much for joining us
[01:00:48.400 -> 01:00:50.920] and we'll see you soon for another episode
[01:00:50.920 -> 01:01:07.000] of the High Performance Podcast. Bye!