E145 - Kenton Cool: Finding your inner depths in the death zone

Kenton Cool is an English mountaineer, a performance coach and co-founder of In Cool Company. He has climbed Everest a record 16 times and, among many other accomplishments, he kicked off the 2012 Olympics’ when he fulfilled an 88-year old pledge to take a gold medal from the 1924 Olympic Games to the top of Everest. 

In this episode Kenton, Jake and Damian discuss how Kenton deals with ‘the death zone’ whilst on an expedition and the uncontrollables that comes with it. He shares how he mentally switches off from the pressures of expeditions, the stress during the expedition can be so high that coming back down to normal life can be challenging. 

Kenton opens up about how he has struggled connecting to his own feelings, and how important working on himself has been. He tells the story of how a young boy in Pakistan illustrated to him a different way of living, completely shifting his work view.

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some summary

[00:00.000 -> 00:07.760] Hey, I'm Jay Comfrey, and this is High Performance, our conversation for you every single week
[00:07.760 -> 00:13.560] that reminds you that it's within. Your ambition, your purpose, your story, it's all there.
[00:13.560 -> 00:17.520] We just help you unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest
[00:17.520 -> 00:23.040] performers into your life lessons. So right now, I allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes
[00:23.040 -> 00:25.760] to speak to the greatest leaders on the planet
[00:25.760 -> 00:27.400] so they can be your teacher.
[00:27.400 -> 00:30.320] And remember, this podcast is not about high achievement
[00:30.320 -> 00:31.640] or high success.
[00:31.640 -> 00:34.240] It's about high happiness, high self-worth,
[00:34.240 -> 00:37.760] and taking you closer to a life of fulfillment,
[00:37.760 -> 00:40.000] empathy, and understanding.
[00:40.000 -> 00:41.560] And before we start with today's episode,
[00:41.560 -> 00:43.520] I have an announcement that I am so excited
[00:43.520 -> 00:44.520] to share with you.
[00:44.520 -> 00:49.520] We are putting on a very special live high performance event.
[00:49.720 -> 00:51.240] It's happening on the 5th of February
[00:51.240 -> 00:52.840] in my hometown of Norwich.
[00:52.840 -> 00:54.200] And it's going to be a coming together
[00:54.200 -> 00:55.760] of all the amazing things we've learned
[00:55.760 -> 00:58.060] from high performance over the past three years.
[00:58.060 -> 01:00.400] There's going to be live guests on stage.
[01:00.400 -> 01:02.280] There's going to be conversations with myself
[01:02.280 -> 01:03.560] and Professor Damien Hughes.
[01:03.560 -> 01:05.400] We're going to be speaking to you, the audience.
[01:05.400 -> 01:09.900] It is a show that we have worked long and hard on to make it as exciting as possible.
[01:09.900 -> 01:12.700] It's not just a live podcast record.
[01:12.700 -> 01:16.680] It's a live show and I'd love you to be with us on the 5th of February.
[01:16.680 -> 01:19.720] And tickets are on sale right now.
[01:19.720 -> 01:28.200] All you need to do is go to the highperformancepodcast.com and click on booking or go to NorwichTheatre.org.
[01:28.200 -> 01:31.820] I expect they'll sell fast so you probably need to move fast but I would love to see
[01:31.820 -> 01:38.840] you on the 5th of February in Norwich for a live high performance event. I can't wait.
[01:38.840 -> 01:44.160] Anyway back to today's episode of the High Performance Podcast. It's a fascinating one.
[01:44.160 -> 01:45.500] Here's what's in store.
[01:49.500 -> 01:49.800] Everest I find relatively straightforward.
[01:52.100 -> 01:55.500] I'm never gonna say I'm complacent about it or take it for granted because that would be very disrespectful
[01:55.500 -> 01:57.700] for the dangers that exist on that mountain.
[01:58.100 -> 02:00.300] But we have a really good understanding of the mountain
[02:00.300 -> 02:01.600] and how to approach it
[02:01.800 -> 02:04.000] and what we need to do to get high on the mountain.
[02:04.500 -> 02:05.440] But summit
[02:05.440 -> 02:14.240] day is stress levels and anxiety levels certainly for myself as a professional mountain guide I'm
[02:14.240 -> 02:18.400] leading somebody into the death zone I'm leading somebody into an environment where there is no
[02:18.400 -> 02:28.480] rescue and I've been doing that for years and it was only two or three years ago I was doing as I mentioned doing a keynote and I realized the level of stress
[02:29.320 -> 02:34.680] That I'm under in the build-up to that day and then during that day
[02:35.240 -> 02:39.000] If the unthinkable happens and for whatever reason we have an issue
[02:40.080 -> 02:43.520] 8,000 meters or higher that team needs to be on point
[02:45.580 -> 02:50.160] 8,000 meters or higher, that team needs to be on point to extract us from that situation. I trust them and they trust me and they feel comfortable that if
[02:50.160 -> 02:53.400] they're uncomfortable about something they're going to put their hand up and say
[02:53.400 -> 02:58.900] you know what I don't think we're doing the right thing. My confidence I think to
[02:58.900 -> 03:07.800] a certain extent comes from the knowledge that I can perform when it really matters I'm devastated
[03:07.800 -> 03:25.400] and he's been listening on the radio so what why we do these things. And really tired.
[03:26.440 -> 03:27.000] Quite.
[03:30.560 -> 03:33.120] And he looks at me and says, he's dead.
[03:35.480 -> 03:36.480] Oh, wow.
[03:36.600 -> 03:40.280] This is some episode I tell you, as you had there, it gets very
[03:40.280 -> 03:43.360] emotional at times, but it's also incredibly inspiring and
[03:43.360 -> 03:43.920] uplifting.
[03:44.200 -> 03:45.160] So Kenton Coole
[03:45.160 -> 03:51.000] is a record-breaking mountaineer. He has summited Everest 16 times. Not only that, he's led
[03:51.000 -> 03:57.440] the expeditions of Serrano Fines to the summit in 2008 and 2009. But like so many guests
[03:57.440 -> 04:02.720] that join us on High Performance, it hasn't been simple for him. He will talk about tragedy
[04:02.720 -> 04:05.420] on the mountainside, and as you heard there, it is incredibly emotional for him. He will talk about tragedy on the mountainside and as you heard there, it is
[04:05.420 -> 04:10.060] incredibly emotional for him. He will also talk about a fall that he had where doctors
[04:10.060 -> 04:14.480] were very doubtful that he would ever walk properly again, but he battled against all
[04:14.480 -> 04:19.060] of those things. And that's what life's about, you know. There's a lovely quote from Seneca
[04:19.060 -> 04:25.380] that I was reminded of when we spoke to Kenton Coole, and it's this, it's not because things are difficult that we do
[04:25.380 -> 04:32.080] not dare, it's because we do not dare that things are difficult. And the truth is that
[04:32.080 -> 04:37.640] Kenton Coole has done things that are difficult all his life, but he's also dared. And that's
[04:37.640 -> 04:43.060] what I want you to take away from this conversation. Seneca said, no man is more unhappy than he
[04:43.060 -> 04:45.300] who never faces adversity,
[04:45.300 -> 04:50.480] for he is never able to prove himself. And you must face adversity. You must do things
[04:50.480 -> 04:54.680] that scare you. You must challenge yourself on a daily basis. And I know that this conversation
[04:54.680 -> 05:00.160] with Kenton Coole will help to give you some of the tools to do that. Thank you so much
[05:00.160 -> 05:15.320] for coming back to another episode of the High Performance Podcast. Let's get straight to it. The incredible life story of record-breaking mountaineer, Kenton Coole.
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[07:29.880 -> 07:36.760] How do you now define high performance? I think high performance is quite an
[07:36.760 -> 07:44.120] individual thing. In its simplest terms I would say high performance is where an
[07:44.120 -> 07:47.720] expected outcome is exceeded.
[07:47.720 -> 07:51.080] And that could be in the individual, it could be in the organization, it could be within
[07:51.080 -> 07:52.080] a team.
[07:52.080 -> 07:59.800] Because by the very nature of high performance, it's not a level that you can constantly attain,
[07:59.800 -> 08:02.200] because I think you end up with burnout.
[08:02.200 -> 08:05.680] Whereas every now and then you will find that you're operating at
[08:06.480 -> 08:10.560] a certain level and high performance for me is where all of a sudden you can peak.
[08:11.360 -> 08:13.840] Now you've got to be careful with a peak because what happens after a peak?
[08:13.840 -> 08:14.480] Jason Vale – A crash.
[08:14.480 -> 08:19.360] Steve Martin – That's potentially a crash. But yeah, you're going to attain something which is
[08:19.360 -> 08:22.880] perhaps beyond expectation. Jason Vale – Can we just delve into this a little bit then because
[08:23.840 -> 08:28.200] people would look at you and think what a true high performing individual you must be constantly operating
[08:28.200 -> 08:33.680] at that top level all the time. How aware are you of when you're having a dip or like
[08:33.680 -> 08:38.480] you can't go at 100% we had Joe Wicks I remember on the podcast you remember he said you know
[08:38.480 -> 08:43.200] flower doesn't bloom all year there is a period where it does. 100% Yeah I mean he's absolutely
[08:43.200 -> 08:45.460] right I came across Joe Wicks only in lockdown.
[08:47.360 -> 08:47.520] I remember doing all his workouts for the children. Yeah.
[08:47.560 -> 08:48.960] Uh, it was fantastic actually.
[08:49.080 -> 08:50.880] There was a bit of a humbug about him to start with.
[08:50.880 -> 08:53.400] And in the end, like, wow, he's doing some great stuff.
[08:53.400 -> 08:56.100] You know, he's just totally in it, but I think he's right there.
[08:56.100 -> 08:57.440] And I think it was a great analogy.
[08:57.760 -> 09:00.800] Uh, Bradley Wiggins once said that.
[09:01.440 -> 09:01.600] Yeah.
[09:01.600 -> 09:05.480] Try, try to maintain like 70, 80% all the time,
[09:05.760 -> 09:08.640] because it's impossible to maintain 100%. You just can't
[09:08.640 -> 09:11.800] do it. There's a reason why footballers have an off season.
[09:11.800 -> 09:16.320] There's a reason why no rugby is the same or whatever it is. So
[09:16.520 -> 09:21.840] I think what, what I try to do, I try to operate at a level, a
[09:21.840 -> 09:28.100] constant level whereby I know that I can peak when I need to. I live in
[09:28.100 -> 09:33.200] the Cotswolds, I go running around the fields pretty much every day and I try
[09:33.200 -> 09:37.880] to maintain my fitness whereby I never lose fitness, I'm not starting from
[09:37.880 -> 09:43.280] ground zero but in the build-up to going to Pakistan or the build-up to going to
[09:43.280 -> 09:45.160] Everest, I know that I can
[09:45.160 -> 09:47.680] crank it up when I need to, to be able to
[09:47.680 -> 09:49.620] perform at a level which is going to be
[09:49.620 -> 09:52.200] required in that moment.
[09:52.200 -> 09:54.000] Toby Vayne-What about mentally then
[09:54.000 -> 09:56.800] Kenton? So you described the physical, that
[09:56.800 -> 09:58.960] resting state where you can raise the
[09:58.960 -> 10:01.520] pace when you need to. How do you
[10:01.520 -> 10:04.760] mentally switch off from the pressures
[10:04.760 -> 10:06.720] of planning an expedition?
[10:06.720 -> 10:12.520] For me, switching off is pretty easy in so much that I invest myself in the family. I
[10:12.520 -> 10:17.000] got two young children, I've got a beautiful wife, live out in the Cotswolds. And it's
[10:17.000 -> 10:26.920] only recently I was doing a keynote for an organisation and we're talking about summit day on Everest and Everest this is going to sound utterly ridiculous
[10:26.920 -> 10:33.160] Everest I find relatively straightforward I'm never gonna say I'm
[10:33.160 -> 10:36.760] complacent about it or take it for granted because that would be very
[10:36.760 -> 10:40.720] disrespectful for the dangers that exist on that mountain but we have a really
[10:40.720 -> 10:52.640] good understanding of the mountain and how to approach it and what we need to do to get high on the mountain but summit day is stress levels and anxiety
[10:52.640 -> 10:57.040] levels certainly for myself as a professional mountain guide i'm leading somebody into the
[10:57.040 -> 11:02.720] death zone i'm leading somebody into an environment where there is no rescue and i've been doing that
[11:02.720 -> 11:09.660] for years and it was only two or three years ago I was doing as I mentioned doing a keynote and I realized the level of
[11:09.660 -> 11:16.740] stress that I'm under in the build-up to that day and then during that day is
[11:16.740 -> 11:23.460] incredible, it's all-consuming. So when I find I come back from an expedition, A is
[11:23.460 -> 11:26.800] a wave, a tsunami of relief that we're out
[11:26.800 -> 11:32.240] of the death zone, I've done my job, I've looked after this individual, I've got him
[11:32.240 -> 11:37.360] or her to the summit and back down again because let's face it, getting back down is the mandatory
[11:37.360 -> 11:46.160] part of that expedition, getting to the top is simply optional. And I get home and certainly for the first couple of weeks, A, it's a
[11:46.160 -> 11:52.880] process of reintegration into Western capitalist society which I struggle with,
[11:52.880 -> 11:59.400] but B, it's a, it's almost like a stress detox because the stress levels have
[11:59.400 -> 12:04.120] been so high in that particular period of time that I think I really struggle
[12:04.120 -> 12:06.960] with it. So will you take us into that moment then where that high in that particular period of time that I think I really struggle with it.
[12:04.320 -> 12:09.040] So will you take us into that moment then
[12:06.960 -> 12:11.840] where that high stress that you describe
[12:09.040 -> 12:13.640] is all-consuming, would you describe what
[12:11.840 -> 12:16.040] that's like but equally how you
[12:13.640 -> 12:17.840] process it and deal with it? It's over a
[12:16.040 -> 12:20.560] prolonged period of time and I don't know how
[12:17.840 -> 12:23.520] unique that is. So I'm a bit of an
[12:20.560 -> 12:32.200] aviation geek, military aviation, I love it. I always have done. And I was reading a dialogue from a naval aviator, a top gun
[12:32.200 -> 12:33.440] pilot or something like that.
[12:34.000 -> 12:39.320] And on approach to landing on a carrier, they are working at maximum capacity.
[12:39.440 -> 12:43.360] And this particular individual said, if you said, if you asked me a question,
[12:44.040 -> 12:44.960] and what's your mother's name?
[12:46.600 -> 12:48.460] He said, you wouldn't get a response predominantly because I've
[12:48.460 -> 12:50.180] not even heard that question, because I'm
[12:50.180 -> 12:52.360] operating at maximum capacity to try to
[12:52.360 -> 12:54.740] land that plane on that carrier and not
[12:54.740 -> 12:57.280] go off the end or crash into it. And it's
[12:57.280 -> 12:59.720] not quite like that on Everest, but
[12:59.760 -> 13:02.320] instead of operating in that environment
[13:02.320 -> 13:05.080] for a matter of five minutes or however long it takes to land a plane on a carrier, I'm operating in that environment for a matter of five minutes or
[13:05.080 -> 13:07.820] however long it takes to land a plane on a carrier. I'm
[13:07.820 -> 13:11.960] operating like that for about a week. So the moment that we
[13:12.400 -> 13:14.600] decide that we're going to leave base camp, so we're looking at
[13:14.600 -> 13:19.360] weather forecasting, we're looking at what the Sherpa
[13:19.360 -> 13:22.080] fixing team is doing, putting the rope to the top, I'm looking
[13:22.080 -> 13:25.040] at the mental and physical state of the top, I'm looking at the mental and physical state of
[13:25.040 -> 13:30.960] my clients. I'm looking at what the Sherpa team is doing, looking at conditions on the
[13:30.960 -> 13:35.480] mountain and all of a sudden we get a weather forecast in and you know beforehand, it's
[13:35.480 -> 13:40.120] like, okay, this is good to go. We call it the lift. We're going to start the lift and
[13:40.120 -> 13:43.440] we're going to move up the mountain to get in position to summit. As soon as you make
[13:43.440 -> 13:48.160] that decision, subconsciously or even consciously, I can feel my stress
[13:48.160 -> 13:53.360] levels beginning to build up and the anxiety, you can feel a tightness and
[13:53.360 -> 13:57.880] then as you move up the mountain it begins to get more and more serious
[13:57.880 -> 14:06.560] because the margin for error is very very small and unlike maybe someone's got a high pressure job in
[14:07.280 -> 14:12.400] you know in London where we are today and if you make a mistake in a in a corporate environment
[14:12.400 -> 14:18.320] there's maneuver room and worst case maybe you're going to lose your job you know if but you've got
[14:18.320 -> 14:27.020] to do something pretty bad for that. I don't have to make a big mistake or bad decision, it can be quite a minor
[14:27.020 -> 14:29.480] mistake and some of these potentially
[14:29.480 -> 14:32.400] going to lose their life, be it maybe the
[14:32.400 -> 14:34.280] client or on the Sherpa team or possibly
[14:34.280 -> 14:36.720] even myself. So your decision-making has
[14:36.720 -> 14:39.760] got to be absolutely on point and then by
[14:39.760 -> 14:40.800] the time you get to the South Coal of
[14:40.800 -> 14:43.680] Everest 8,000 meters above sea level and
[14:43.680 -> 14:46.000] this is where airplanes fly. Now next time you get in a
[14:46.000 -> 14:47.560] plane and going on holiday somewhere and
[14:47.560 -> 14:49.440] captain says we are cruising altitude
[14:49.440 -> 14:50.980] and take a seat, have a quick look out the
[14:50.980 -> 14:53.120] window that's pretty much where we're
[14:53.120 -> 14:55.560] climbing and there's no rescue you can't
[14:55.560 -> 14:56.960] get a helicopter there you're not going
[14:56.960 -> 14:58.400] to get a rescue team in to pick you up
[14:58.400 -> 15:02.360] anytime soon. So everything is on the
[15:02.360 -> 15:04.520] line and you're in what's known as a
[15:04.520 -> 15:06.360] death zone that even
[15:06.360 -> 15:11.880] with supplementary oxygen the body is dying and how long you got you don't
[15:11.880 -> 15:16.320] know it's a ticking time bomb, how long? Again you don't know it's an unknown it's
[15:16.320 -> 15:20.840] an uncontrollable. So you're trying to deal with all these uncontrollables and
[15:20.840 -> 15:25.320] deal with the controllables and I employ something I call it binary thinking. I cut everything
[15:25.320 -> 15:28.160] else out. At 8,000 meters you're
[15:28.160 -> 15:31.440] stressed, you've got anxiety running, you've
[15:31.440 -> 15:33.080] got someone's life in your hands, you're
[15:33.080 -> 15:35.680] the go no-go man. You've got some of these
[15:35.680 -> 15:38.800] ambitions and dreams, you've got a, you
[15:38.800 -> 15:40.440] know, to use your term a high-performing
[15:40.440 -> 15:42.480] Sherpa team around you looking at you
[15:42.480 -> 15:44.600] waiting for that decision. Are we going
[15:44.600 -> 15:46.760] to go today? Are we going to go tomorrow? Are we going to wait at the
[15:46.760 -> 15:51.480] cold? You know, what are the oxygen levels? And all the time even with supplementary
[15:51.480 -> 15:56.080] oxygen your brain is being starved of the very thing it needs to operate with
[15:56.080 -> 16:02.240] which is O2. And you know what happens, the first thing that gets
[16:02.240 -> 16:06.600] eroded away when you are starving your brain of oxygen is your capacity for
[16:06.600 -> 16:09.640] rational thought, your capacity to make
[16:09.640 -> 16:13.240] decisions, which is irony really because
[16:13.240 -> 16:14.760] you're in the most dangerous environment
[16:14.760 -> 16:16.680] arguably in the world, you've got
[16:16.680 -> 16:18.280] somebody who's in your charge and you've
[16:18.280 -> 16:19.880] got to make rational decisions while
[16:19.880 -> 16:23.040] starving your brain of oxygen? Are you
[16:23.040 -> 16:26.720] kidding me? Of course I'm stressed.
[16:26.720 -> 16:32.760] There might be five or six Sherpas paying clients, my own life, we're worried
[16:32.760 -> 16:35.920] about crowds, we're worried about the weather, we're worried about oxygen levels and
[16:35.920 -> 16:40.740] then we've got to step out at night and start moving in an upward direction when
[16:40.740 -> 16:49.240] every single fiber in your body is saying go back down you shouldn't be here human beings don't exist at 8,000 meters above sea level
[16:49.240 -> 16:53.960] and then you've got to persuade your clients that this is the right thing to
[16:53.960 -> 16:59.640] do yeah I mean I'm I'm properly stressed. What do you do with self-doubt when it
[16:59.640 -> 17:02.840] creeps in because it sounds to me like there's not an awful lot of room for
[17:02.840 -> 17:08.320] that. I think there's no room for self-doubt and a lot of the audience has probably seen Nims
[17:08.320 -> 17:11.920] and his 14 Peaks, I think it's been on the show. Nims is one of these
[17:11.920 -> 17:16.800] characters that's got so much self-belief and so much confidence. I'm
[17:16.800 -> 17:22.640] also a confident guy, my confidence I think to a certain extent comes from the
[17:22.640 -> 17:28.320] knowledge that I can perform when it really matters that I've spent,
[17:28.320 -> 17:33.040] I've been working on ever since 2004, but I've been living and working the mountains since I was
[17:33.760 -> 17:42.000] 17, 18. There is a real depth of experience that I know I can pull on. David Goggins refers to the
[17:42.000 -> 17:45.840] cookie jar and you deposit in that jar and then
[17:45.840 -> 17:47.120] when you need to you can put your hand
[17:47.120 -> 17:48.840] in the jar and there is an
[17:48.840 -> 17:51.760] understanding or a knowledge base within
[17:51.760 -> 17:54.600] that cookie jar that you can withdraw
[17:54.600 -> 17:56.920] from and those deposits come from
[17:56.920 -> 17:59.360] experience. When I'm performing at my
[17:59.360 -> 18:03.200] very best my confidence is high and I
[18:03.200 -> 18:07.840] think certainly for me when my confidence is high there
[18:07.840 -> 18:10.400] is very little self-doubt. The demons
[18:10.400 -> 18:12.920] might be chipping away at you, they
[18:12.920 -> 18:14.680] might be trying to find a chink in your
[18:14.680 -> 18:18.960] armor to try to weedle their way in and
[18:18.960 -> 18:21.040] to manifest themselves in an ugly manner
[18:21.040 -> 18:24.520] to try to derail the mindset which is
[18:24.520 -> 18:25.820] required for high
[18:25.820 -> 18:28.040] performance, for confidence, whatever
[18:28.040 -> 18:28.920] you want to call it, you know that
[18:28.920 -> 18:31.080] bulletproof mindset that we
[18:31.080 -> 18:34.600] all try to achieve. But the
[18:34.600 -> 18:37.820] negativity that we can generate within
[18:37.820 -> 18:40.120] ourselves can be very destructive and
[18:40.120 -> 18:43.680] the way that I really focus is
[18:43.680 -> 18:46.080] partly binary thinking, cut away the fluff.
[18:46.080 -> 18:54.640] I'm a firm believer that really critical decisions have to be based on logic and not emotion.
[18:54.640 -> 19:00.040] At the same time, when I start to struggle with that philosophy, I then think of the
[19:00.040 -> 19:06.440] children, which is emotional thinking but I use it in a positive way whereby I
[19:06.440 -> 19:12.680] dispel the demons by telling myself that if I let emotions seep in I'm
[19:12.680 -> 19:17.160] potentially going to make a poor decision, not a decision based on
[19:17.160 -> 19:26.960] logic and by doing so, it's going to sound quite dramatic, I might die. So I play out a scenario of what does that
[19:26.960 -> 19:32.360] look like or what would that look like at home and by doing so it keeps me very
[19:32.360 -> 19:39.440] focused and it allows me to dispel the demons or the negative mindsets
[19:39.440 -> 19:44.560] that may be eroding. So what you go through a almost like a role play of
[19:44.560 -> 19:45.040] your wife and your children
[19:45.040 -> 19:47.160] dealing with the news that you've died on the mountain.
[19:47.160 -> 19:50.120] Exactly, it's generating the vision,
[19:50.120 -> 19:52.920] it's using what would that look like and
[19:52.920 -> 19:57.360] it's obviously pretty ugly scenario but
[19:57.360 -> 20:01.480] I use it in a positive way to enable me
[20:01.480 -> 20:07.320] to dispel the emotion, to down the the demons and to keep my
[20:07.320 -> 20:11.300] thinking logical. Can you explain how you do that? Because like most people listening to this would be like well
[20:11.560 -> 20:16.820] the one place you don't want to do is allow yourself to imagine your children being told your dad's died on the side of a
[20:16.820 -> 20:19.520] mountain. So how does playing that out then allow you
[20:20.080 -> 20:23.240] the clarity of thought, the ability to make the right decision?
[20:23.560 -> 20:28.500] Very simply because it's a it's a scenario that I would never want to play out for real.
[20:28.500 -> 20:36.000] And by doing so, it fortifies me in a way whereby I am never going to let that happen.
[20:36.000 -> 20:38.500] What do I need to do to inhibit that?
[20:38.500 -> 20:40.000] Have you ever thought it will?
[20:40.000 -> 20:44.000] There's been moments that I thought, oh, this is great.
[20:44.000 -> 20:46.360] Not working on Everest, but on other mountains.
[20:46.360 -> 20:51.480] I mean, before becoming a professional mountain guide, I was, you know, I climbed for fun.
[20:51.480 -> 20:57.080] I was once heralded as one of the best high altitude climbers globally.
[20:57.080 -> 21:01.360] Now, whether that's an accolade that was right or wrong, it's neither here nor there, but
[21:01.360 -> 21:03.520] we were operating at quite a high level.
[21:03.520 -> 21:05.880] And there were scenarios at times you think,
[21:06.200 -> 21:10.040] Ooh, we may have overstepped the mark here. This is actually
[21:10.120 -> 21:14.360] going in the wrong direction. Or your ice climbing or your mix
[21:14.360 -> 21:16.480] climbing in Scotland and the weather's horrendous and
[21:17.400 -> 21:21.240] everything is reliant on a pick placement, the tiny weenie pick
[21:21.280 -> 21:24.040] on your on your ice axe and is wobbling in a placement, you
[21:24.040 -> 21:29.180] think, my God, if that pops this is gonna get really ugly really quickly so
[21:29.180 -> 21:34.460] there have been scenarios that have been less than ideal but you certainly don't
[21:34.460 -> 21:38.960] start on a journey thinking not going to come back. Now you describe when you're
[21:38.960 -> 21:42.880] on the mountain and your capacity to think rationally is being impaired by
[21:42.880 -> 21:49.600] the environment but you've got high-performing Sherpas around you so I'm interested of how do you get
[21:49.600 -> 21:53.720] feedback from them how do you create space that they could say to you Kenton
[21:53.720 -> 21:58.360] we're gonna we need to reconsider this or we are in a precarious
[21:58.360 -> 22:05.520] position and you don't let ego or your desire to get to the top interfere with that.
[22:05.520 -> 22:12.000] I mean it's a tricky one because the Sherpa culture is definitely one of deferment.
[22:12.000 -> 22:13.000] Yeah.
[22:13.000 -> 22:20.320] It's not very often you would get a Sherpa say, actually this is wrong.
[22:20.320 -> 22:24.640] And it's similar to the culture I think with the air career or career in air.
[22:24.640 -> 22:25.520] There's lots of case studies on the culture, with the air career or Korean air. There's lots of case
[22:25.520 -> 22:29.760] studies on the culture in Korea. So, you know, air career, the audience probably know this,
[22:29.760 -> 22:35.440] but they were experiencing a lot of crashes. I forget who the psychologist was that went in and
[22:35.440 -> 22:40.960] worked out that nobody wanted to overrule the captain of the plane. And it's a little bit like
[22:40.960 -> 22:47.120] that in Sherpa culture. I, they do defer to, I don't mean
[22:47.120 -> 22:53.280] in a derogatory way, the Western guide. It's changing a little bit with the likes of NIMS and
[22:54.400 -> 23:02.560] LACPR from 8K and the different other companies. But it's taking years to get to this situation.
[23:02.560 -> 23:05.600] What we try to generate within the Sherpa team
[23:05.600 -> 23:08.160] is that we are all equals.
[23:08.160 -> 23:09.880] And people listen to that will probably say,
[23:09.880 -> 23:11.240] well, yeah, but there's always gotta be a leader.
[23:11.240 -> 23:14.760] There's gotta be, and to a certain extent, yes.
[23:14.760 -> 23:19.320] But at the same time, by generating a team
[23:19.320 -> 23:21.720] that is all on an equal basis,
[23:21.720 -> 23:23.600] and some of my Sherpas have summited more times than me.
[23:23.600 -> 23:29.360] Dorji, my number one Sherpa, Dorji Gyaljan, he's 10 years younger than me, he's got 20 summits to his name.
[23:30.240 -> 23:35.040] He has a really good understanding about the small things that set Sherpa teams apart,
[23:35.040 -> 23:38.160] you know, because they're from a different religion, English isn't their first language,
[23:38.160 -> 23:42.800] they're a different culture, and he really understands the nuances. And we try to build
[23:42.800 -> 23:45.580] this team whereby we are all on an equal standing.
[23:45.580 -> 23:46.580] There is no blame.
[23:46.580 -> 23:47.580] So how do you do that then?
[23:47.580 -> 23:53.120] I really invested myself in what's important to the team.
[23:53.120 -> 23:57.300] Now I spent time in their houses, I've got to know their families, I've got to know their
[23:57.300 -> 23:58.300] children.
[23:58.300 -> 24:00.100] I've laughed with them, I've cried with them.
[24:00.100 -> 24:03.040] We've had success together, we've had tragedy together.
[24:03.040 -> 24:06.880] I've earned their respect over many, many years.
[24:06.960 -> 24:10.200] I used to carry big loads, you know, akin to the Sherpa loads.
[24:10.200 -> 24:14.400] Cause Sherpas carry way more than the average client, like way more.
[24:14.800 -> 24:16.080] And 10 times the amount.
[24:16.220 -> 24:22.000] And by investing yourself with the team, living with them, breathing with them,
[24:22.040 -> 24:25.680] you do sort of earn their respect and it's trust.
[24:26.480 -> 24:31.920] I trust them and they trust me and they feel comfortable that if they're uncomfortable about
[24:31.920 -> 24:35.440] something they're going to put their hand up and say you know what I don't think we're doing the
[24:35.440 -> 24:40.560] right thing or have we considered doing this or maybe we should wait a day or I don't think
[24:40.560 -> 24:44.480] that where the window is quite what you think it is, let's sit down and discuss this. So will you
[24:44.480 -> 24:46.600] give us an example then Kenton where you've been in that debt the window is quite what you think it is. Let's sit down and discuss this. So will you give us an example then, Kenton, where you've been in that
[24:46.600 -> 24:50.240] dead zone or, or maybe just before you made that decision to go in there,
[24:50.600 -> 24:54.480] where one of them have come to you and challenged a plan of action that
[24:54.480 -> 24:59.400] you've had that you have then created space to listen to and change your plans.
[24:59.960 -> 25:02.560] It's a generally, I mean, it's normally, it's normally dodgy.
[25:02.640 -> 25:06.280] So he becomes like the team spokesman.
[25:06.280 -> 25:11.160] And for better or for worse, there's normally a little bit of a disconnect between to where
[25:11.160 -> 25:17.040] the Sherpas would live and hang out and where, say, I would and the client.
[25:17.040 -> 25:20.740] And the Sherpas would normally congregate in the, this is at Camp 2.
[25:20.740 -> 25:24.520] So we are halfway up the mountain, we're at 6,400 meters.
[25:24.520 -> 25:25.040] And the Sherpas would
[25:25.040 -> 25:29.200] generally hang out in the kitchen tent, they would eat and hang out and
[25:29.200 -> 25:33.760] socialize in the kitchen tent whereby myself and the client, you know, we've got
[25:33.760 -> 25:37.160] a mess tent so there's this disconnect which immediately creates a
[25:37.160 -> 25:41.320] barrier that needs to be broken down. So I find myself spending quite a lot of
[25:41.320 -> 25:47.380] time between these two venues. I spend a lot of time in the cook tent, just hanging there listening to what they've they're
[25:47.380 -> 25:51.460] saying, a lot of it is in Nepalese, I don't speak Nepalese but then there's
[25:51.460 -> 25:56.140] English conversations going on as well and the dialogue would normally
[25:56.140 -> 26:01.340] occur in the cook tent where the Sherpas feel really comfortable amongst
[26:01.340 -> 26:08.240] their colleagues and their friends and the cooks in there, the cook boys are in there and it's a comfortable
[26:08.240 -> 26:14.240] environment and generally it would be dodgy, simply side all up next to me and we
[26:14.240 -> 26:17.760] could be talking about anything. I think this is indicative about what an
[26:17.760 -> 26:22.920] amazing man dodgy is, he would just then slowly slip into conversation that
[26:22.920 -> 26:26.600] there is a general vibe that they're not comfortable
[26:26.600 -> 26:31.840] about something and it could be the loads which need to be carried up or perhaps they're
[26:31.840 -> 26:37.560] tired because they work so hard and they are human beings like you and I and if we try
[26:37.560 -> 26:43.120] to emulate what they do on the mountain physically we'll be crushed let alone where our mental
[26:43.120 -> 26:44.120] state would be.
[26:44.120 -> 26:46.320] Let me give you an example we
[26:46.320 -> 26:48.440] would climb from camp 2 on Everest to
[26:48.440 -> 26:51.720] the South Col, camp 4, over two days so
[26:51.720 -> 26:53.480] we're all climbing Everest we would be
[26:53.480 -> 26:56.120] using oxygen at maybe a three to four
[26:56.120 -> 26:58.720] liter a minute flow rate and we'll be
[26:58.720 -> 27:01.520] carrying you know a relatively light
[27:01.520 -> 27:04.280] load and we take two days to get there
[27:04.280 -> 27:06.560] we stop halfway up at camp three
[27:06.560 -> 27:11.600] and rest and recover and the next day go again and we would use maybe three four bottles of oxygen
[27:11.600 -> 27:20.320] to do that. A Sherpa would go from camp two to camp four carrying four five liters of oxygen so
[27:20.320 -> 27:27.360] that's like about four kilos four and a half kilos per bottle. So they're carrying 15, 20 kilos on the back.
[27:27.520 -> 27:29.040] They would do it without oxygen.
[27:29.440 -> 27:31.560] They would leave early in the morning.
[27:32.280 -> 27:34.480] Now we're going to say early, like one o'clock in the morning,
[27:34.680 -> 27:38.320] climb a good deal through the night, get to the South Cole,
[27:38.440 -> 27:41.760] deposit their load, come back down again to camp two,
[27:42.000 -> 27:44.800] all in one day and then be back down by late lunch.
[27:45.040 -> 27:49.760] They would rest one day and then do it again. And they're doing it without oxygen.
[27:50.960 -> 27:58.160] It's incredible. It's an unheralded feat of human endurance. I mean, these guys are simply
[27:58.160 -> 28:02.240] incredible. And they are uncelebrated or under celebrated. Yeah, they're certainly under
[28:02.240 -> 28:11.440] celebrated. We're beginning to see, I mean, NIMS doing some great work. Nims isn't a Sherpa. People think he is, but he's not. He's
[28:11.440 -> 28:15.840] from the lowlands, which makes his achievements and his endurance achievements even more incredible.
[28:15.840 -> 28:20.640] But he's doing some great work celebrating the hard behind-the-scenes work that the Sherpas do.
[28:21.280 -> 28:26.320] So these guys are doing big carries like that and then there is often an
[28:26.320 -> 28:34.640] expectation that they are physically bulletproof and Sherpas don't get tired but they do but
[28:34.640 -> 28:42.640] culturally they don't want to let anybody down so generally there's a you know they will try to hide
[28:42.640 -> 28:47.200] any physical like tiredness that they might have.
[28:47.200 -> 28:50.800] Whereas we try to generate a culture of openness.
[28:50.800 -> 28:55.560] And Georgie was saying this year, you know, Kenton, or Kenton Dye, so dye is like a colloquial
[28:55.560 -> 29:00.080] word for his brother, it's a term I've redeemed, Kenton Dye, or Casey, I'm not sure, it's Casey
[29:00.080 -> 29:01.080] Dye.
[29:01.080 -> 29:04.320] Some of the shepherds are a bit tired.
[29:04.320 -> 29:06.480] They're not a bit tired, they're exhausted,
[29:06.480 -> 29:14.120] a bit tired, maybe tomorrow we rest. And he's asking the question, in many ways it's a rhetorical
[29:14.120 -> 29:18.840] question he's actually telling me that tomorrow they are going to rest but he's doing it in
[29:18.840 -> 29:25.520] a way whereby he's presenting it in a very grown-up way something that we would expect a
[29:25.520 -> 29:32.080] coach or and our relationship is deep enough that I understand that I know
[29:32.080 -> 29:35.120] what he's trying to tell me it's not what he's telling me is what he's not
[29:35.120 -> 29:39.920] telling me so yeah I think it's a good idea Dorji I think maybe tomorrow
[29:39.920 -> 29:43.240] the show up at rest you know what do you think, you look at Ming Dorji, Ming Dorji
[29:43.240 -> 29:48.720] what do you think tomorrow you think we we're going to rest tomorrow? He goes, yeah I think rest, good idea tomorrow. So you know, tonight
[29:48.720 -> 29:53.920] we drink Chang, which is their local home brew. Now they don't have Chang on the mountain, but
[29:54.480 -> 29:57.760] tonight we drink Chang, and they all start laughing and joking, oh yeah we drink Chang
[29:57.760 -> 30:05.980] tonight, but we don't have any Chang. It's allowing Dorje and the others the space in a very comfortable environment to have
[30:05.980 -> 30:08.820] that dialogue knowing that you know if
[30:08.820 -> 30:11.080] I do disagree not I'm going to if we do
[30:11.080 -> 30:14.100] disagree no one's gonna be fired no one's
[30:14.100 -> 30:17.140] gonna be sacked. It's the openness that's
[30:17.140 -> 30:20.620] required in a situation that actually is
[30:20.620 -> 30:23.160] very very serious. Because the last thing
[30:23.160 -> 30:26.240] I want is you know one of my top Sherpas keeling
[30:26.240 -> 30:32.800] over because they're overworked or overextended or they're exhausted. I want that team out 100%
[30:32.800 -> 30:40.240] when it really matters in case the unthinkable happens. If the unthinkable happens and for
[30:40.240 -> 30:46.160] whatever reason we have an issue at 8,000 meters or higher, that team needs to be on point
[30:46.800 -> 30:54.320] to extract us from that situation. They can't be tired, I can't be tired, you know, we need the
[30:54.320 -> 31:00.400] capacity both mentally and physically to deal with that situation. We have a lot of people I think
[31:00.400 -> 31:05.000] still that feel to be a leader you have to make all the big decisions yourself
[31:05.000 -> 31:06.440] You can't possibly be vulnerable
[31:06.440 -> 31:10.600] You need to tell everyone the direction you're going because otherwise at least the doubt and they're only dealing with
[31:10.860 -> 31:15.200] You know a decision in the city or a decision in the staff room at school or in their business
[31:15.200 -> 31:20.300] Whereas you know you you are literally dealing with life and death and that story you've just told us and then what you just shared
[31:20.300 -> 31:27.400] There is a reminder. I think the key thing which is personal relationships is what gets you through in those moments you know possibly as
[31:27.400 -> 31:31.680] much as even if not more than your skills and your knowledge and your
[31:31.680 -> 31:35.640] ability if you can't connect with those people on the mountain then then you die
[31:35.640 -> 31:40.280] you talked about the unthinkable when you have been around the unthinkable
[31:40.280 -> 31:43.720] happening you know thank goodness not to you but it has happened to other people
[31:43.720 -> 31:48.320] and there is a story of you performing CPR on someone for two hours on the
[31:48.320 -> 31:56.080] mountain and still that person died. I'm just interested what that horrendous
[31:56.080 -> 32:00.800] experience would have done for you and whether after that there was any
[32:00.800 -> 32:08.000] resistance from you forever going back on the on the mountain. I don't think there was any resistance to going back so so the story
[32:08.000 -> 32:14.280] was we came across I say we it was Dorji, Dorji and myself and we came across a
[32:14.280 -> 32:19.800] stranded climber for want of a better word at camp 4 on Lhotse so Lhotse is a
[32:19.800 -> 32:25.040] neighboring peak fourth highest mountain in the world neighboring peak, fourth highest mountain in the world, neighboring peak to Everest.
[32:25.040 -> 32:31.300] And this was back in 2013 and essentially Mr. Lee, he's a Taiwanese climber, he climbed
[32:31.300 -> 32:37.200] low seas, come down and I don't quite know the ins and outs but he was suffering from
[32:37.200 -> 32:43.200] high altitude pulmonary and cerebral edema, so swelling on the brain, fluid on the lungs,
[32:43.200 -> 32:45.600] he's in a really bad state and his team didn't
[32:45.600 -> 32:51.680] have the infrastructure in place to look after him. And then they hid the situation
[32:52.640 -> 32:56.000] from the rest of base camp because they're trying to sort it out themselves and
[32:56.880 -> 33:04.000] anyway he was essentially left and we came across him at the high camp and the first thing I knew
[33:04.000 -> 33:06.040] about it is one of the doctors at base
[33:06.040 -> 33:08.000] camp, so there's something called the HRA, the Himalayan
[33:08.000 -> 33:09.600] rescue association, it's a nonprofit.
[33:10.080 -> 33:13.480] And they put doctors in at base camp to look after the clients
[33:13.480 -> 33:15.320] and people like me, but also the Sherpas.
[33:15.320 -> 33:20.400] And, and we get a call over the radio and, uh, the doctor,
[33:20.400 -> 33:23.680] Rachel, I think her name was, can you just have a look in one
[33:23.680 -> 33:27.960] of the tents, you know, we're getting reports that there's, there's a climber that needs
[33:27.960 -> 33:31.800] some help and something like, well, make sure there's no one else here.
[33:31.920 -> 33:33.160] It's just Dorji and myself.
[33:33.160 -> 33:35.440] She goes, just go and have a look in some of the tents because
[33:35.440 -> 33:36.440] the tents were often left up.
[33:37.720 -> 33:41.480] So, okay, well, we just climbed Everest and we just climbed Noopsy,
[33:41.640 -> 33:45.420] uh, the day before this is the year that I did the trilogy of climbing these three peaks.
[33:45.640 -> 33:47.560] So, you know, I'm physically knackered.
[33:48.480 -> 33:50.080] Dorji is tired.
[33:50.120 -> 33:51.960] I don't think Dorji ever gets knackered, but he's tired.
[33:52.800 -> 33:54.560] So we look in the tents and there's no one there.
[33:54.600 -> 33:58.040] And there's two tents about 50 yards beneath us.
[33:58.680 -> 34:00.320] And I look at Dorji and Dorji looks at me.
[34:00.320 -> 34:01.520] I'm like, okay, this is a paper stone.
[34:02.040 -> 34:03.080] Let's see what goes down there.
[34:04.320 -> 34:04.960] I lose.
[34:05.660 -> 34:06.620] I go down. Jesus. Yeah. So I go down there,, this is a paper stone. Let's see what goes down there. I lose. I go down.
[34:07.120 -> 34:07.160] Jesus.
[34:07.660 -> 34:07.820] Yeah.
[34:11.240 -> 34:12.900] So I go down there, open up one of the tents and then there's this, this, this time when he's going in there, Jesus.
[34:13.560 -> 34:13.920] Okay.
[34:13.920 -> 34:15.360] Rachel, there's somebody here.
[34:15.360 -> 34:15.860] And.
[34:15.860 -> 34:17.800] And was he still coherent at this time?
[34:17.800 -> 34:20.320] No, he was unconscious at this stage, but he's breathing.
[34:20.540 -> 34:22.040] Uh, he's alive.
[34:22.160 -> 34:27.200] It tends to a disaster zone and his's vomit in there and it's like
[34:27.200 -> 34:32.440] his down suit's ripped open and he's down everywhere, it's just a really ugly
[34:32.440 -> 34:37.080] situation so as we'll go in there get on the radio and Rachel was brilliant she
[34:37.080 -> 34:42.560] was helping me through the whole thing and then a couple of other climbers
[34:42.560 -> 34:45.200] turned up both Australian and they were both climbing Lhotse
[34:45.200 -> 34:50.240] without oxygen and one of them was, I don't know if he was a doctor or a paramedic,
[34:51.280 -> 34:57.680] but he was able to assist me injecting Mr. Lee with dexamethasone which is a steroid-based drug
[34:58.240 -> 35:07.640] and this had quite a profound effect on him. He regains consciousness, he's trying to talk to me, you know, he's, you know, he's, he's relatively coherent.
[35:07.640 -> 35:08.640] He can squeeze my hand.
[35:08.640 -> 35:14.420] He's responding to various tasks we're doing on him, but it's now night and there's no
[35:14.420 -> 35:18.960] way we can extract him at nighttime.
[35:18.960 -> 35:21.040] And I stay up with him throughout the night.
[35:21.040 -> 35:24.880] I said to Dorji, there's no need for you to be involved with this.
[35:24.880 -> 35:28.640] Go back to our tent, get a good night's sleep and we potentially
[35:28.640 -> 35:32.600] need your strengths tomorrow so go back to the tent get a good night's
[35:32.600 -> 35:36.400] sleep I'll deal with this for now and then at some stage I mean I've climbed
[35:36.400 -> 35:38.960] these two other mountains over like three or four days I'm physically
[35:38.960 -> 35:43.920] exhausted I'm with Mr. Lee throughout the night I set an alarm and I'm
[35:43.920 -> 35:45.760] waking up every 20 minutes or so
[35:45.760 -> 35:47.460] to check on him.
[35:47.460 -> 35:50.320] About some stage I drift off during the night
[35:50.320 -> 35:53.820] and I wake up and he's not breathing.
[35:55.200 -> 35:57.520] Christ, I've kind of,
[35:58.760 -> 36:03.560] certain degree of responsibility here.
[36:03.560 -> 36:10.440] I've let him down. He's not breathing. I then tried
[36:10.440 -> 36:15.920] to call Rachel on the radio, but I forget what time it is. It's three o'clock, four
[36:15.920 -> 36:19.480] o'clock in the morning, whatever. It was a long time ago. I can't really remember. And
[36:19.480 -> 36:27.560] I go into a certain, into panic mode a little bit, trying to get Rachel on the radio. radio but not only have I fallen asleep but I've left the radio out and the
[36:27.560 -> 36:32.200] batteries have got cold so I can't get Rachel she's probably in bed anyway but
[36:32.200 -> 36:37.240] the HRA there's always somebody on on the end of the radio but I kind of know
[36:37.240 -> 36:41.380] what I need to do what's Rachel gonna tell me like sticking with more
[36:41.380 -> 36:46.960] decks well there's only so much decks the body can take and I revert back to being a boy scout
[36:46.960 -> 36:53.440] aged 12, 13 on a first aid course and if somebody's not breathing and
[36:53.440 -> 36:58.320] you can't detect a heart heartbeat well you do CPR. Now admittedly I
[36:58.320 -> 37:01.360] don't know how long he's been not breathing for
[37:01.360 -> 37:10.040] but I feel the compulsion to try something and I revert back I'm 12 and
[37:10.040 -> 37:13.560] you know was it Risassiani or something that they were called and those
[37:13.560 -> 37:18.120] rubber doll things I've never done it for real and it's a horrible
[37:18.120 -> 37:22.360] situation it's pitch black it's bloody freezing and I'm like okay let's do CPR
[37:22.360 -> 37:25.400] so I start doing CPR and I don't know if you've ever done it.
[37:25.800 -> 37:26.880] It's quite exhausting.
[37:27.500 -> 37:29.440] It's much harder than you think it's going to be.
[37:29.940 -> 37:32.060] And I don't know how long I need to do it for.
[37:32.600 -> 37:36.840] Cause my first day training was you do CPR until somebody is more qualified
[37:36.840 -> 37:41.400] than you comes along and says you can stop or you continue or whatever.
[37:41.500 -> 37:43.060] But there is nobody coming along.
[37:43.060 -> 37:47.320] We're 8,000 meters on Mount Lhotse or 7,800 or wherever
[37:47.320 -> 37:48.600] we are.
[37:48.600 -> 37:56.640] So I do it for as long as I can and then I stop and I think, Christ, he's dead.
[37:56.640 -> 38:01.680] I think, no, he can't be dead, he's on my watch, I can't let him down.
[38:01.680 -> 38:08.320] So you get back to it and it was maybe an hour and a half couple of hours
[38:08.320 -> 38:14.320] and every time I'd stop I think you can't stop because you stop he's going to die
[38:15.600 -> 38:21.600] so you've got to try something and then finally I get a warm up the battery so I actually put
[38:21.600 -> 38:27.960] them down my underpants I think okay so I've got like four, eight, triple A, double A batteries down my, or the
[38:27.960 -> 38:31.600] battery pack, you know, in my down suit, not quite down my underpants, trying to warm it
[38:31.600 -> 38:32.600] up.
[38:32.600 -> 38:36.000] Batteries come to life, I get Rachel and I was like, okay, well, Rachel, what do I do?
[38:36.000 -> 38:37.480] And she's like, okay, what's the situation?
[38:37.480 -> 38:38.480] What are the stats?
[38:38.480 -> 38:43.640] And so I explained all that and she's like, well, you got to call it.
[38:43.640 -> 38:44.640] Yeah.
[38:44.640 -> 38:47.280] What do you mean? you got to call it. Yeah what do you mean I've got to call it?
[38:47.280 -> 38:52.800] Well I know if you remember watching ER and things like this and you know you
[38:52.800 -> 38:59.080] got to look at the guys kind of dead and I'm struggling with all of this and I
[38:59.080 -> 39:03.080] kind of just remember sitting back and it's just about dawn now perhaps a
[39:03.080 -> 39:05.800] little bit later and then
[39:05.800 -> 39:09.300] there's a crunch crunch crunch out outside you can hear crampons in the
[39:09.300 -> 39:14.440] snow and I don't know if it's somebody coming up or coming down and then the
[39:14.440 -> 39:29.960] zipper zips open and it's Dorji, Dorji's head comes into this tent and I'm devastated and he's been listening on the radio so what
[39:29.960 -> 39:31.960] do we do?
[39:31.960 -> 39:52.360] dodgy man yeah this isn't why we do these things I'm really tired and he looks at me and says he's dead there's nothing you can do
[39:52.360 -> 39:57.800] I just look at this guy he's literally his head is in my lap
[39:57.800 -> 40:06.880] I'm sorry about that this is like 10 years on I still struggle with this and Dorji says we got to climb
[40:06.880 -> 40:12.120] Dorji you can't climb, look at this guy I didn't even know his name at the time
[40:12.120 -> 40:21.360] literally in my lap, I can't climb and he just looks at me and goes I've always
[40:21.360 -> 40:26.960] wanted to climb Lhotse we should climb and we're not climbing for
[40:26.960 -> 40:35.080] him we're climbing for me and he knows me so well, I'm really sorry about this, he knows me so
[40:35.080 -> 40:52.800] well he knows exactly how to pull the right strings and I think that's so so telling of when you put together a team that really works you know exactly
[40:52.800 -> 41:02.720] what everybody needs on that team in a time of crisis whether they need to find
[41:02.720 -> 41:08.080] that extra gear or whether in that scenario in that moment that
[41:08.080 -> 41:17.040] individual, I don't think it is but let's call it vulnerability, what he or she needs to get over
[41:17.040 -> 41:25.620] that and Dorji just hit all the right notes and I think that's it's partly indicative of what an
[41:25.620 -> 41:30.680] amazing man he is but also the culture that over years all of us have put
[41:30.680 -> 41:36.220] together in that situation. I was conflicted you know I've put on my
[41:36.220 -> 41:43.420] crampons and I left Mr. Lee in that tent and we climbed and it's been very
[41:43.420 -> 41:45.640] easy for you know somebody out there to say,
[41:45.640 -> 41:47.760] well, you know, perhaps you should have done this or you should have done that.
[41:47.920 -> 41:51.040] But for me in that moment, or for us in that moment, I mean, Mr.
[41:51.040 -> 41:51.840] Lee was dead.
[41:52.600 -> 41:57.440] There's nothing we could have done anymore to try to look after him.
[41:57.480 -> 42:01.240] And we climbed and you know, what's the, what's the phrase?
[42:01.240 -> 42:02.120] You know, you fall off a horse.
[42:02.160 -> 42:03.600] First thing you got to do is get back on it.
[42:04.200 -> 42:06.640] And I think it was, it was perfect.
[42:06.640 -> 42:09.880] I remember coming back down, we climbed Lhotse, somebody that one
[42:09.880 -> 42:12.480] o'clock in the afternoon, we get caught in a storm on the way down.
[42:12.560 -> 42:16.800] And we climbed these three peaks and Herod is quite, quite a big thing
[42:16.800 -> 42:18.120] in the climbing world at the time.
[42:18.680 -> 42:20.800] And we come down in a storm and I'm like, oh Christ, what
[42:20.800 -> 42:21.880] else can be thrown at us?
[42:22.800 -> 42:25.440] And we get back down to the high camp and Dorji's busy
[42:25.440 -> 42:26.720] packing various things up.
[42:26.920 -> 42:31.000] And I just said to him, I just need a few minutes and went back
[42:31.000 -> 42:31.920] into the tent with Mr.
[42:31.920 -> 42:37.640] Lee and just sort of sat there and just try to deal internally
[42:37.640 -> 42:39.680] with what, what happened overnight.
[42:40.480 -> 42:44.080] And then, you know, a Sherpa team was coming up to try to
[42:44.080 -> 42:45.000] initiate a rescue. Um, I mean, obviously toopa team was coming up to try to initiate a rescue.
[42:45.240 -> 42:48.760] Um, I mean, obviously too late by probably a couple of days.
[42:49.560 -> 42:51.400] And I just remember zipping, zipping Mr.
[42:51.400 -> 42:57.000] Lee into a sleeping bag and closing the tent door on him and walking away.
[42:58.040 -> 43:01.800] And his body was, body was recovered two days later, I think by, by the
[43:01.800 -> 43:06.000] Sherpa team and his family contacted me a little while afterwards and
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[44:41.500 -> 44:43.780] Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply.
[44:43.780 -> 44:54.720] See Mint Mobile for details. I mean it's an incredible story, and thank you for sharing it, but it's also a reminder
[44:54.720 -> 45:01.120] of a phrase that we've used in other interviews on this series around the memento mori, the
[45:01.120 -> 45:05.040] reminder of our own mortality, and you've seen it in the most visceral
[45:05.040 -> 45:10.200] real sense of it so I'm interested in how did you process Mr. Lee's death and
[45:10.200 -> 45:16.040] justify continuing to scale Everest continuing to put yourself into those
[45:16.040 -> 45:21.440] death zones? I don't think I have processed what happened I'm still quite
[45:21.440 -> 45:27.680] bitter with the logistical team that was looking after him I've never spoken spoken to them about it. I've got to know them relatively well since
[45:28.320 -> 45:31.120] I've never spoken to them about it, which perhaps I should.
[45:32.400 -> 45:36.160] I think you haven't you strike me as the kind of person that would go straight in and go, listen,
[45:36.880 -> 45:40.880] the next person in that position doesn't die. And here's how they shouldn't die.
[45:40.880 -> 45:45.360] And hey, it's that particular logistical outfit,
[45:45.360 -> 45:46.560] I mean, they've got a lot better now,
[45:46.560 -> 45:49.520] but they had an awful track record back then.
[45:49.520 -> 45:54.520] And yeah, maybe there was a duty that I should have done
[45:54.680 -> 45:56.560] to try to put things in place that that's worth,
[45:56.560 -> 45:58.080] because it was avoidable.
[45:58.080 -> 45:59.440] It was totally avoidable.
[46:00.880 -> 46:02.400] But I don't think I have protest.
[46:02.400 -> 46:06.160] I'm really bad at putting things like that
[46:06.160 -> 46:11.560] into a closet and closing the door and you know I've experienced, a lot of
[46:11.560 -> 46:14.400] friends of mine have died in the mountains or rock climbing or you know
[46:14.400 -> 46:17.440] whatever it is that they're doing and I don't think I've ever fully
[46:17.440 -> 46:21.080] processed things and I think partly it's the generation that I'm from I think it's
[46:21.080 -> 46:28.360] partly, this is going to sound rubbish, I think it's partly because I'm a guy and there is this sort of stigma around that you
[46:28.360 -> 46:32.400] don't show weakness and you know you just deal with things but we all
[46:32.400 -> 46:38.200] know that that's wrong these days and over the last few years I have been
[46:38.200 -> 46:42.900] investing time in myself which I think is such an important thing to do. If a
[46:42.900 -> 46:47.320] friend comes up to you and says you you know, Hey, I need help with something.
[46:47.320 -> 46:53.160] I'm trying to process this or I'm going through a divorce or my dad's just died or I've done this or whatever it is.
[46:53.660 -> 46:55.280] You help that individual.
[46:56.300 -> 46:57.960] You maybe sit down with them.
[46:57.960 -> 47:00.400] You spend time with them.
[47:00.720 -> 47:09.960] You try to get them through the trauma of whatever trauma is that they're experiencing and try to put them in a better place. Well why wouldn't we
[47:09.960 -> 47:14.760] do that to ourselves? Now I know people are and the culture that we're in today is
[47:14.760 -> 47:18.300] much better but we'd invest time in others why won't we invest more time in
[47:18.300 -> 47:26.400] ourselves and I'm beginning to do that and understand that these things do need closure and they do need to
[47:26.400 -> 47:34.560] be an open dialogue with people and my wife's fantastic for doing this. So would you have
[47:34.560 -> 47:40.320] shared that story with your wife? Oh god yeah. So then how does she react when you then say
[47:40.880 -> 47:48.560] I'm now off again to Everest? Well I mean mean, it's really interesting. Well, isn't it? Because it's, it's people that you leave behind.
[47:49.440 -> 47:52.520] And I don't know the stress and anxiety.
[47:52.520 -> 47:55.760] I mean, I was talking about the stress and anxiety of, of summit day on Everest,
[47:56.160 -> 48:01.200] but what is the stress and anxiety of those that don't come that those that
[48:01.240 -> 48:06.400] aren't there in the moment moment going through the processes of the
[48:06.400 -> 48:09.000] decision-making and jazz isn't what
[48:09.000 -> 48:10.520] the weather is, she doesn't know what
[48:10.520 -> 48:13.080] the how the clients are, the auction
[48:13.080 -> 48:15.320] levels and things like this. All she sees
[48:15.320 -> 48:17.400] for better for worse these days you know
[48:17.400 -> 48:18.920] we've all got trackers and things like
[48:18.920 -> 48:20.360] that you can track you up the mountain
[48:20.360 -> 48:23.400] and she knows what is entailed I mean
[48:23.400 -> 48:25.280] she's heard a story about Mr. Lee or the
[48:25.280 -> 48:26.720] Sherpa that I pulled off the fixed lines
[48:26.720 -> 48:28.880] who you know he got hit by a rock and
[48:28.880 -> 48:31.960] half his head fell off and you know and
[48:31.960 -> 48:33.320] she knows the attrition rate with my
[48:33.320 -> 48:35.760] friends and but I don't know what she
[48:35.760 -> 48:37.080] goes through I mean we talk about it
[48:37.080 -> 48:40.000] sometimes and I mean there's a couple of
[48:40.000 -> 48:41.840] sort of anecdotal stories that perhaps
[48:41.840 -> 48:44.680] shows you a little bit about what she
[48:44.680 -> 48:46.240] goes through and what the children go through the children are now 9 and shows you a little bit about what she goes through and
[48:46.240 -> 48:47.240] what the children go through.
[48:47.240 -> 48:48.240] The children are now nine and 11.
[48:48.240 -> 48:51.320] They have an understanding about what daddy does and they have an understanding about
[48:51.320 -> 48:53.000] the dangers.
[48:53.000 -> 48:57.520] I was on K2 last year in Pakistan, a much harder mountain to climb.
[48:57.520 -> 49:08.160] And I'm there with a client and we're on summit day and my tracker glitched and instead of going up, all of a sudden it's moved significantly
[49:08.160 -> 49:10.980] in a downhill direction.
[49:10.980 -> 49:14.900] And Jazz is, Oh Christ, he's fallen.
[49:14.900 -> 49:15.900] What can I do?
[49:15.900 -> 49:16.900] What happened?
[49:16.900 -> 49:17.900] What happened?
[49:17.900 -> 49:23.460] You know, luckily she's got the depth of experience and she's experienced many ascents of Everest
[49:23.460 -> 49:29.160] and K2 is new, but she checks one or two of the other trackers of the party and everybody else is moving in an upward direction.
[49:29.160 -> 49:31.240] So she's like, okay, let's not panic.
[49:31.320 -> 49:32.040] Just yet.
[49:32.040 -> 49:33.160] People are still moving up.
[49:33.640 -> 49:37.960] But for that moment, she's like, Christ, and what's running through her mind.
[49:38.440 -> 49:46.000] There'll be people listening to this content though, that think that what you're
[49:42.340 -> 49:48.160] doing carries a degree of selfishness when
[49:46.000 -> 49:50.000] you hear those anecdotes about the
[49:48.160 -> 49:52.560] stress that Jaz goes through of receiving
[49:50.000 -> 49:55.560] the calls. So how do you square that
[49:52.560 -> 49:57.800] away with being a loving father and a
[49:55.560 -> 50:01.840] husband and yet still having this need
[49:57.800 -> 50:04.000] to go and scale the mountains? So yeah
[50:01.840 -> 50:08.800] you're 100% right, climbing is one of the most arbitrary, selfish, ridiculous things I think in existence.
[50:08.800 -> 50:13.840] Because generally you're never going to get rich, you're never going to get famous,
[50:13.840 -> 50:19.040] and in many ways it's almost a perfect sport because of that.
[50:19.040 -> 50:26.320] So you do it, or I do it at least, for much more holistic, organic, meaningful ways because it means something to me.
[50:27.360 -> 50:34.320] Now I could try to parry that by saying it is my job, I pay the mortgage through climbing big
[50:34.320 -> 50:45.000] mountains but you know I could be a stockbroker or a lawyer or a you know, I could choose any sort of avenue.
[50:45.800 -> 50:47.460] Does it need justification?
[50:48.540 -> 50:50.240] Well, maybe to the outsider it does,
[50:50.240 -> 50:54.540] but to us as a cohesive family unit, it doesn't.
[50:54.540 -> 50:58.600] And the reason I think it doesn't is to be
[50:58.600 -> 51:02.760] the best husband or father that I can be,
[51:02.760 -> 51:05.440] there needs to be a level of contentment.
[51:13.760 -> 51:16.240] And I find my contentment is aided by time spent in the mountains, whether that's for work or whether that's for play.
[51:16.920 -> 51:21.200] And it could be skiing, it could be walking, it could be rock
[51:21.200 -> 51:22.560] climbing or whatever it is.
[51:23.520 -> 51:26.320] And if you remove that I definitely get
[51:26.320 -> 51:30.400] jittery jazz can see it and she said a number of times she said to me you know
[51:30.400 -> 51:34.700] what I think you need to book a flight go and contact some of your friends out
[51:34.700 -> 51:38.360] in the Alps and just sod off and go climbing come and see me in a week's
[51:38.360 -> 51:41.400] time because you're getting unpleasant the children don't like you right now
[51:41.400 -> 51:45.760] and I think you're being really really mean so go on,
[51:45.760 -> 51:52.880] hang off and come back in a week's time and I will come back reset, much more pleasant and
[51:54.240 -> 51:59.840] Anna Veras wrote a book called Feeding the Rat and it's about Mo Antoine, it's Mo Antoine's
[51:59.840 -> 52:05.320] biography, a climber who died in the 80s I think and insiders and it doesn't
[52:05.320 -> 52:08.680] matter could be climbing it could be sport it could be it could be anything
[52:08.680 -> 52:14.280] it could be work it could be and insiders you know we have a rat and that
[52:14.280 -> 52:25.000] rat needs sustenance and if you starve the rat or whatever sustenance he or she needs, they start gnawing away at your insides.
[52:27.280 -> 52:32.280] And that rat, my rat, needs time in the mountains.
[52:32.520 -> 52:35.600] And when he's content, he will quite happily curl up
[52:35.600 -> 52:38.680] and do whatever rats do when they're not gnawing away.
[52:39.760 -> 52:42.160] And it's so true.
[52:42.160 -> 52:44.680] I think we all have a rat or some description.
[52:44.680 -> 52:47.380] And we all need that selfish time, that self-investment
[52:47.380 -> 52:51.100] that we were talking about earlier, that time to ourselves.
[52:51.100 -> 52:53.420] And yeah, I want to spend time with the family.
[52:53.420 -> 52:57.520] I want to spend, be playing French cricket or football in the garden with my son and
[52:57.520 -> 53:07.680] my daughter or taking her up to the hockey pitch and hitting hockey balls around. Yet at the same time I need that me time because I am
[53:07.680 -> 53:13.720] a human being as well and I'm developing and I'm growing and I'm learning all the time
[53:13.720 -> 53:20.000] and we need to invest in the me sometimes as much as we invest in other people and we
[53:20.000 -> 53:28.300] forget that sometimes. Right at the beginning you spoke about coming back and almost having to decompress from mountain life and having to re-acclimatise
[53:28.300 -> 53:32.540] to the Western world. Before we move on to our quickfire questions at the end I would
[53:32.540 -> 53:38.260] love you to share with us any lessons or learnings or the biggest thing that we
[53:38.260 -> 53:41.020] can take away from this conversation when it comes to the mistakes we're
[53:41.020 -> 53:44.340] making in this Western world because what we haven't seen and all the people
[53:44.340 -> 53:45.960] listening on their smartphones right now
[53:45.960 -> 53:50.640] whilst on the tube or on the bus to work totally immersed in this Western world
[53:50.640 -> 53:53.160] many people listen to this because they want to be entrepreneurial and they want
[53:53.160 -> 53:57.720] to make their mark and they want to get rich and what is the biggest mistake
[53:57.720 -> 54:02.440] what's the biggest trap that we're all falling into that you've almost been
[54:02.440 -> 54:06.400] shown the light when it comes to the other world that you've operated in?
[54:06.400 -> 54:09.080] I think I'm really lucky I travel a lot and
[54:09.080 -> 54:12.520] I travel to places in South America,
[54:12.520 -> 54:15.920] Pakistan, India, I've seen a whole host of
[54:15.920 -> 54:17.560] things and whenever I come back to the UK
[54:17.560 -> 54:20.200] or wherever it may be, I used to live in
[54:20.200 -> 54:23.240] France, I come back to France or I really
[54:23.240 -> 54:32.000] worry about the society that we belong to, the capitalist society that we are indoctrinated to believe is so
[54:32.000 -> 54:37.680] amazing and something that we should all be part of and it's instilled from us
[54:37.680 -> 54:46.000] from a really early age. I'm not in complete agreement that the capitalist society is the best society.
[54:48.120 -> 54:48.760] Gordon Gekko, greed is good.
[54:49.120 -> 54:49.880] Really?
[54:50.880 -> 54:53.040] Well, how much do we need? I mean, I'm looking out at London today and
[54:53.040 -> 54:55.080] we can see all the cranes up and I can see
[54:55.080 -> 54:57.400] buildings as far as I see and people are
[54:57.400 -> 54:58.360] going about their business.
[54:58.360 -> 55:00.760] And you mentioned just a minute ago in the
[55:00.760 -> 55:02.600] question, people are listening to this on
[55:02.600 -> 55:04.800] their smartphones or they've got earbuds in
[55:04.800 -> 55:06.000] on the bus or on the, on the, on the, people are listening to this on their smartphones or
[55:04.200 -> 55:08.600] they've got earbuds in on the bus or on the
[55:06.000 -> 55:10.520] on the, what happens to connectedness and
[55:08.600 -> 55:11.880] when you go to places in Nepal or
[55:10.520 -> 55:13.440] Pakistan and you're in these little
[55:11.880 -> 55:16.520] villages or I'm working with my Sherpa
[55:13.440 -> 55:18.720] crew the times that we are disconnected
[55:16.520 -> 55:21.440] from the grid we don't have our
[55:18.720 -> 55:23.680] smartphones or devices we become
[55:21.440 -> 55:25.440] connected in other ways and all of a sudden there's a community,
[55:25.440 -> 55:29.560] there's a collective because the
[55:29.560 -> 55:31.080] capitalist society is all about the
[55:31.080 -> 55:34.120] individual and really if you go back not
[55:34.120 -> 55:36.840] even that far you know the human species
[55:36.840 -> 55:40.280] is tribal and a tribe is a collection of
[55:40.280 -> 55:43.280] individuals that is much more powerful
[55:43.280 -> 55:44.680] than the individual because a tribe
[55:44.680 -> 55:50.280] needs everybody working together to exist. Is it the Kalahari, the tribe
[55:50.280 -> 55:54.840] that's in the Kalahari Desert, they've worked out they work 16 hours a week I
[55:54.840 -> 55:58.560] think it is and if somebody's not pulling their 16 hours they're kicked
[55:58.560 -> 56:02.020] out the tribe and they're not going to exist for very long because everybody's
[56:02.020 -> 56:05.720] got to pull their weight and that's for the collective good and you
[56:05.720 -> 56:09.160] see that in some of these air quotes
[56:09.160 -> 56:12.400] developing cultures, developing nations
[56:12.400 -> 56:14.720] and you know we saw it a little bit in
[56:14.720 -> 56:17.720] lockdown, we saw the positiveness
[56:17.720 -> 56:20.120] of communities coming together and
[56:20.120 -> 56:23.480] pulling as one, we're all in it together
[56:23.480 -> 56:28.000] but we're short-sighted individuals. And we're
[56:28.000 -> 56:33.280] constantly thinking about one-upmanship or getting one over your neighbour or whatever
[56:33.280 -> 56:36.400] it is, keeping up with the Joneses, the rat race that is Western society.
[56:36.400 -> 56:39.400] Jason Vale – The environment is the biggest example. We're putting everything in front
[56:39.400 -> 56:42.360] of the environment and there will be no mountains to climb for the next generation.
[56:42.360 -> 56:45.400] Steve Maroon – Yeah, well there's going to be no planet left if we continue.
[56:45.400 -> 56:47.800] And that's such a good analogy.
[56:47.800 -> 56:49.400] It's the biggest madness of all, isn't it?
[56:49.400 -> 56:52.000] Literally there will be no planet yet you still want to build a coal power.
[56:52.000 -> 56:54.200] And you've seen the manifestos of our governments going,
[56:54.200 -> 56:57.000] oh yeah, we're going to address this.
[56:57.000 -> 57:00.800] And it's like such short-term madness.
[57:00.800 -> 57:01.400] It's a madness, yeah.
[57:01.400 -> 57:04.400] Because there's going to be nothing left.
[57:04.400 -> 57:06.300] And if there's anything that I learned,
[57:06.300 -> 57:12.400] it's the power of community, the power of the collective, having the right culture.
[57:12.400 -> 57:16.880] And I do really struggle, I come back. So let me just give you a very quick anecdotal
[57:16.880 -> 57:22.720] analogy. I think it where I'd been, Pakistan or somewhere, and I built a house out in the
[57:22.720 -> 57:29.600] Cotswolds or we built a house four or five years ago. I came up from Pakistan, and I built a house out in the Cotswolds or we build a house four or five years ago I came up for Pakistan and the walls are just going up and I'm walking around this house
[57:29.600 -> 57:33.720] It's a relatively large house big footprints is about well as big as bungalow
[57:34.400 -> 57:38.920] I'm walking around this and I'm absolutely horrified
[57:39.760 -> 57:45.840] By what we do I said to jazz are you kidding me the amount of money we're investing in this
[57:46.880 -> 57:52.320] in Pakistan there'd be like 10 families living here and we got this plot of land in this house
[57:52.320 -> 57:58.080] all to ourselves there's only four of us this is vulgar this is disgusting. I was back the following
[57:58.080 -> 58:05.600] week and it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Because we are, myself included,
[58:05.600 -> 58:08.920] we are so short-sighted sometimes.
[58:08.920 -> 58:10.560] And of course we built the house and everything else.
[58:10.560 -> 58:13.440] And I come back and I look at it sometimes
[58:13.440 -> 58:15.240] and I came back from the Paul issue.
[58:15.240 -> 58:17.800] I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, Christ,
[58:17.800 -> 58:20.560] now I'm part of the problem.
[58:20.560 -> 58:22.280] Now perhaps I have that realisation
[58:22.280 -> 58:24.200] that I am part of the problem, but.
[58:24.200 -> 58:27.760] But it's also a reminder that we have to have cognitive diversity, we have to have
[58:27.760 -> 58:32.120] different outlooks, we have to open our horizons because if you just existed, if
[58:32.120 -> 58:35.360] you never left you'd never feel like that. Oh 100% you know yeah and I
[58:35.360 -> 58:39.160] learned from quite an early age. I was in Pakistan, I was 19 years old, my first
[58:39.160 -> 58:43.680] expedition, we climbed this mountain, did a first ascent, drop off the wrong side
[58:43.680 -> 58:50.080] of the mountain for various reasons and we're walking across a meadow and this young boy, probably the same age as me
[58:50.080 -> 58:54.720] at the time, he was 17, 18, he was a goat herder, he comes running up and shouting and screaming at
[58:54.720 -> 58:59.120] us, I mean oh my god we're gonna get, this is really bad, and quite the opposite, he hadn't
[58:59.120 -> 59:09.760] seen a human being for weeks, he's up there on his own and he doesn't speak a word of English you know I don't speak Urdu and it's three of us and he invites us into his goat
[59:09.760 -> 59:14.480] herding shed thing yurt whatever it was he's just there on his own and we spent
[59:14.480 -> 59:18.560] the night there and he shared what little he had he shared everything with
[59:18.560 -> 59:22.120] he cooked his dinner and we run out of gas we run out of food on this climb
[59:22.120 -> 59:29.800] this generosity that he was showing us and I didn't grow up in poverty but my dad was unemployed
[59:29.800 -> 59:34.340] through a lot of my teenage years so I understood a little bit about hardship
[59:34.340 -> 59:37.460] but I still had a roof over my head, we had running water, we had food on the table
[59:37.460 -> 59:46.220] and there's this guy with, well it's this kid with almost nothing and he's sharing everything and I was mesmerized by this
[59:46.220 -> 59:53.580] and it was a light bulb moment that everything that I had understood or been
[59:53.580 -> 59:58.860] taught up to that point was arguably a fabrication and that there was something
[59:58.860 -> 01:00:03.780] entirely different there was a different way of living your life and showing
[01:00:03.780 -> 01:00:09.400] generosity to others which is arguably the most important most rewarding thing that we
[01:00:09.400 -> 01:00:14.520] can actually do and it took this young Pakistani boy to educate me on that
[01:00:14.520 -> 01:00:18.200] despite the fact I had been to university and been to a grammar school
[01:00:18.200 -> 01:00:22.160] in High Wycombe and all these amazing things yeah no one ever taught me that
[01:00:22.160 -> 01:00:26.120] and here you are 30 years later and you still carry the memory of that. Oh god
[01:00:26.120 -> 01:00:31.000] Yeah, I often wonder what happened to him. Yeah. Yeah, he might still be there. He might still be looking after his flock.
[01:00:31.000 -> 01:00:34.480] God, I hope not. God, it was a hard way of life. Yeah, but yeah, he may well be.
[01:00:35.480 -> 01:00:38.400] Perhaps he's not even alive. I don't know but that generosity.
[01:00:38.400 -> 01:00:40.560] That was a really good example of that quote, isn't it?
[01:00:40.560 -> 01:00:46.280] That when the student is ready the teacher will appear and maybe that was the right time for that lesson for you.
[01:00:46.280 -> 01:00:47.280] Oh, absolutely.
[01:00:47.280 -> 01:00:48.280] 100%.
[01:00:48.280 -> 01:00:49.280] Yeah.
[01:00:49.280 -> 01:00:51.320] Not our valley in North Pakistan.
[01:00:51.320 -> 01:00:52.320] Amazing.
[01:00:52.320 -> 01:00:53.320] Right.
[01:00:53.320 -> 01:00:58.000] Um, the three non-negotiables that people have to buy into if they're going to allow
[01:00:58.000 -> 01:00:59.800] you to take them up a mountain.
[01:00:59.800 -> 01:01:00.800] Yeah.
[01:01:00.800 -> 01:01:02.640] I mean, they're all value driven, I think.
[01:01:02.640 -> 01:01:05.840] Uh, I mean, honesty has got to be right up there. Yeah.
[01:01:05.840 -> 01:01:11.400] I spend a lot of time building a trust relationship with my clients before we go to Everest.
[01:01:11.400 -> 01:01:15.400] And it's all about honesty because I need to know as a mountain guide, there's lots
[01:01:15.400 -> 01:01:19.720] of stuff we can do, but I'm not a mind reader.
[01:01:19.720 -> 01:01:24.200] And if I ask you, how are you feeling on a scale of one to 10, it's got to be an honest
[01:01:24.200 -> 01:01:25.160] answer because otherwise we can get so honesty is what I mean, kindness. So if I ask you, how are you feeling on a scale of one to 10, it's going to be an honest answer,
[01:01:25.160 -> 01:01:26.000] because otherwise we can get,
[01:01:26.000 -> 01:01:29.440] so honesty is why, I mean kindness.
[01:01:29.440 -> 01:01:32.120] I've learned that over the years.
[01:01:32.120 -> 01:01:33.960] I'm still learning that.
[01:01:33.960 -> 01:01:36.640] I'm not as kind as I could be.
[01:01:36.640 -> 01:01:38.400] So there's ever developing, but yeah,
[01:01:38.400 -> 01:01:41.860] honesty, kindness, and I suppose it's linked to honesty,
[01:01:41.860 -> 01:01:43.320] but integrity.
[01:01:43.320 -> 01:01:46.600] I think honesty and integrity are actually subtly different.
[01:01:46.600 -> 01:01:49.360] Because I think you can be, have integrity,
[01:01:49.360 -> 01:01:51.040] but maybe be dishonest.
[01:01:51.040 -> 01:01:53.200] Maybe it's the other way around, I don't know.
[01:01:53.200 -> 01:01:55.840] But yeah, I think that's, yeah, I would say,
[01:01:55.840 -> 01:01:59.400] your kindness is, you can't be kind enough.
[01:01:59.400 -> 01:02:00.520] Where were you?
[01:02:00.520 -> 01:02:01.720] Where are you?
[01:02:01.720 -> 01:02:03.240] And where are you going?
[01:02:03.240 -> 01:02:05.560] I'm on a personal journey to understand
[01:02:05.560 -> 01:02:10.220] myself more, it's only something I've been invested in relatively recently I
[01:02:10.220 -> 01:02:17.720] think I was deluding myself so where was I? I was very self-absorbed, where am I?
[01:02:17.720 -> 01:02:26.660] I'm on that path and where am I going? I don't think I ever get to mastery, but perhaps I'd like to move out of
[01:02:27.660 -> 01:02:29.500] apprenticeship to journeyman
[01:02:29.500 -> 01:02:32.580] Even by saying that that's self-absorbed isn't it because that's all about me
[01:02:33.320 -> 01:02:39.460] But I think you need to understand yourself in order to be able to project that in a meaningful way onto others
[01:02:39.460 -> 01:02:41.460] I like to be kinder
[01:02:41.860 -> 01:02:43.380] Well, it's there
[01:02:43.380 -> 01:02:45.400] It's there if you want to be kinder.
[01:02:45.400 -> 01:02:51.880] I know that, I know that but it's how you sometimes project that and in times of
[01:02:51.880 -> 01:02:58.800] when you're stressed and you quite often, I do anyway, sort of revert back to your
[01:02:58.800 -> 01:03:06.800] default settings and my default settings aren't always
[01:03:03.440 -> 01:03:10.480] the most holistic or kind sometimes
[01:03:06.800 -> 01:03:13.560] and I've only learned this through the
[01:03:10.480 -> 01:03:17.440] teachings of my wife who's a very wise
[01:03:13.560 -> 01:03:19.320] generous individual and yeah we're constantly
[01:03:17.440 -> 01:03:20.720] learning and developing. Talking of which
[01:03:19.320 -> 01:03:22.360] just breaking away from the quickfire
[01:03:20.720 -> 01:03:24.680] questions for a minute like I found this
[01:03:22.360 -> 01:03:27.840] obviously a deeply emotional
[01:03:24.680 -> 01:03:29.600] interview and I see, you know, tears in your eyes when you talk about your children, tears
[01:03:29.600 -> 01:03:34.540] in your eyes when you talk about the young shepherd who was generous to you, obviously
[01:03:34.540 -> 01:03:38.940] tears in your eyes when you talk about the traumas you faced on the side of the mountain.
[01:03:38.940 -> 01:03:44.020] And this is in the context of you currently being more open about exploring your own emotions
[01:03:44.020 -> 01:03:49.340] and your own feelings. I wonder if we'd have had this conversation five or ten years ago, would
[01:03:49.340 -> 01:03:52.460] the emotions have been as on the surface as they are or maybe the work you've
[01:03:52.460 -> 01:03:57.700] done on yourself recently has made you realize the power of your own human
[01:03:57.700 -> 01:04:01.380] emotion and your power of vulnerability really? I think the emotions always been
[01:04:01.380 -> 01:04:09.760] there. It's been one of those things, you know, I get teary very easily. I could be presenting on stage to an organization and get
[01:04:09.760 -> 01:04:15.280] teary talking about, you know, an Everest ascent. It's one of those really strange things that I
[01:04:15.280 -> 01:04:21.360] tear up a lot. I've tried to hide it in the past because it's not what alpha males are meant to do.
[01:04:21.360 -> 01:04:29.600] And I've given up on that years ago. I don I don't see any any harm in being teary but behind that there's a deeper emotion
[01:04:29.600 -> 01:04:37.120] today than there would have been 10 years ago. My understanding of my own
[01:04:37.120 -> 01:04:51.200] connectiveness with my feelings is deeper now than it was. I was winging life even five years ago and it was only,
[01:04:51.840 -> 01:04:58.480] I think through reading, through listening to podcasts that I realized I needed to work on
[01:04:58.480 -> 01:05:08.880] myself and it's a work in progress and it always will be but I'm really glad that I embarked on it so yeah I'm a very different individual much more connected
[01:05:08.880 -> 01:05:14.160] to who I am than I was five ten years ago it would be a very different
[01:05:14.160 -> 01:05:20.600] interview. How important is legacy to you? My own legacy is is somewhat irrelevant
[01:05:20.600 -> 01:05:27.920] that's my self-centeredness coming out again. But I think what's really important is the next generation
[01:05:27.920 -> 01:05:31.240] my children, our ability to affect change
[01:05:31.240 -> 01:05:35.680] is, well certainly mine, I'm nearly 50, is
[01:05:35.680 -> 01:05:38.800] now non-existent. Yet my generation has
[01:05:38.800 -> 01:05:44.080] wreaked havoc on the planet, society and
[01:05:44.080 -> 01:05:47.620] all these sorts of things and if there was gonna be any
[01:05:47.620 -> 01:05:56.500] legacy it's implementing some form of change and I don't think I can do that I
[01:05:56.500 -> 01:06:08.580] can't do that. The biggest legacy that my generation can leave is educating the next generation to not be us and to be more
[01:06:08.580 -> 01:06:14.880] aware of the impact that we have. I mean it's really interesting isn't it, the
[01:06:14.880 -> 01:06:18.000] biggest impact that I would ever have on this planet is by having children and
[01:06:18.000 -> 01:06:30.580] that was a conscious decision and children never asked to get born so it's our duty to educate them so that
[01:06:30.580 -> 01:06:38.080] they can navigate their lives on this planet and this society and hopefully
[01:06:38.080 -> 01:06:45.640] implement change whereby society becomes better, the environment
[01:06:43.200 -> 01:06:49.800] starts to heal, so that there
[01:06:45.640 -> 01:06:51.880] is a life that's not some post-
[01:06:49.800 -> 01:06:54.080] apocalyptic nightmare, which I think
[01:06:51.880 -> 01:06:55.600] we're heading towards. What advice would
[01:06:54.080 -> 01:06:58.560] you give to a teenage Kenton just
[01:06:55.600 -> 01:07:04.800] starting out? A teenage Kenton was a very
[01:06:58.560 -> 01:07:08.000] shy, naive, introspective individual who didn't
[01:07:05.300 -> 01:07:11.520] perhaps express who he
[01:07:08.000 -> 01:07:13.200] could have been or wanted to be. And I
[01:07:11.520 -> 01:07:15.000] think this is this was brought into, no
[01:07:13.200 -> 01:07:19.280] beyond my teenage years, this was brought into my
[01:07:15.000 -> 01:07:22.400] 20s, my 30s, that inability to be
[01:07:19.280 -> 01:07:25.800] vulnerable, the inability to express
[01:07:22.400 -> 01:07:28.640] emotion, the inability to express emotion, the
[01:07:23.420 -> 01:07:30.200] inability to be connected to others. I
[01:07:28.640 -> 01:07:31.840] don't think that was my upbringing it
[01:07:30.200 -> 01:07:34.280] was just kind of who I was and the
[01:07:31.840 -> 01:07:37.880] environment I was in whereas now I look
[01:07:34.280 -> 01:07:41.080] back on it and now it's very inhibiting
[01:07:37.880 -> 01:07:45.200] back there and it shouldn't have been
[01:07:41.080 -> 01:07:48.200] and if I wanted to express perhaps who I wanted to be more
[01:07:48.200 -> 01:07:54.720] that was perfectly acceptable because ultimately nobody cares really. I was
[01:07:54.720 -> 01:07:59.600] always in fear of failure in the eyes of my peers I mean I'm very competitive
[01:07:59.600 -> 01:08:07.760] very competitive destructively so and not wanting to fail in the eyes of my peers.
[01:08:07.760 -> 01:08:10.200] I wouldn't even care.
[01:08:10.200 -> 01:08:11.480] No, really?
[01:08:11.480 -> 01:08:14.920] And it's taken me a long, long, long time to learn that.
[01:08:14.920 -> 01:08:19.440] I got a savage, I used to have a savage jealousy streak that came from that fear
[01:08:19.440 -> 01:08:21.120] of failure and that competitiveness.
[01:08:21.120 -> 01:08:24.880] And jealousy is a hideous human trait.
[01:08:24.880 -> 01:08:28.480] It's nasty. and that competitiveness and jealousy is a hideous human trait, nasty, just be
[01:08:28.480 -> 01:08:33.880] who you want to be. If you could go back to one moment in your life what would it
[01:08:33.880 -> 01:08:38.960] be and why? We not really talked about it I had a pretty bad climbing accident a
[01:08:38.960 -> 01:08:48.000] long time ago 25, 26, 27 years ago 1996 whenever that was, it was hard. You broke both your heels.
[01:08:48.000 -> 01:08:54.400] Broke both my heels, told, you wouldn't walk without stick, definitely wouldn't climb,
[01:08:54.960 -> 01:09:00.640] wouldn't be able to run and it crushed me.
[01:09:03.200 -> 01:09:05.840] Because the community that was part of the climbing community,
[01:09:05.840 -> 01:09:08.240] it's going back to that connection, that, that, that
[01:09:08.240 -> 01:09:11.480] connectiveness through a collective.
[01:09:12.080 -> 01:09:13.560] It was, it was everything I stood for.
[01:09:13.960 -> 01:09:14.960] It was my life.
[01:09:15.160 -> 01:09:20.120] And that was taken away or attempted to take taken away by a consultant who
[01:09:20.280 -> 01:09:22.040] crushed me by saying, you won't climb.
[01:09:22.680 -> 01:09:26.440] And I saw that as taking away climbing would
[01:09:26.440 -> 01:09:31.040] take away everything and then I was in a wheelchair you know learning to walk
[01:09:31.040 -> 01:09:35.420] again with crutches you know falling over in on parallel bars into the arms
[01:09:35.420 -> 01:09:40.460] of my physio and all these things I mean it was it was a hideous time yeah at the
[01:09:40.460 -> 01:09:45.380] same time such a rich time for learning. And it sounds ridiculous.
[01:09:45.380 -> 01:09:52.540] I think if it could go back to that time, I, with what I know now, I'd learn so much
[01:09:52.540 -> 01:09:52.840] more.
[01:09:53.680 -> 01:10:01.200] And I think some of the hardships that I've endured since then, because I didn't
[01:10:02.120 -> 01:10:08.640] optimize my learning, being given that opportunity, I'd love to go back
[01:10:09.200 -> 01:10:16.480] and experience that whole thing again. I don't regret falling off and smashing myself up,
[01:10:17.040 -> 01:10:20.240] not one little, I like to think I don't regret anything
[01:10:22.880 -> 01:10:28.440] other than perhaps I didn't take full opportunity of the that learning
[01:10:28.440 -> 01:10:36.880] potential I could have learned so much more quicker back then rather than
[01:10:36.880 -> 01:10:42.760] learning now yeah I love the opportunity to go back maybe not experience all the
[01:10:42.760 -> 01:10:45.100] pain and now the physical pain
[01:10:45.100 -> 01:10:48.560] of falling off and all things like that.
[01:10:48.560 -> 01:10:54.360] But yeah, it's an amazing time being in a wheelchair in London, trying to navigate all
[01:10:54.360 -> 01:10:57.120] of that, all that that presents to you.
[01:10:57.120 -> 01:11:08.880] This is in 96, you know, buses that go down and disabled access back then was crap and and the ability to learn
[01:11:10.240 -> 01:11:14.640] I don't think I missed it completely but I'd love to go back.
[01:11:16.560 -> 01:11:22.080] And last question your final message really for people that have listened to this brilliant
[01:11:22.080 -> 01:11:25.960] episode of High Performance what would you like to leave ringing in their ears, your one
[01:11:25.960 -> 01:11:30.320] final golden rule to living a high-performance life?
[01:11:30.320 -> 01:11:32.840] A single golden rule? I mean how do you
[01:11:32.840 -> 01:11:37.520] distill high performance and life into a single golden rule? Doesn't
[01:11:37.520 -> 01:11:41.360] really matter what other people think of you, it's about what you think of
[01:11:41.360 -> 01:11:45.840] yourself and to really achieve high performance,
[01:11:45.840 -> 01:11:48.240] you have to believe in yourself.
[01:11:48.240 -> 01:11:52.280] And I think through society today,
[01:11:52.280 -> 01:11:57.280] we're bombarded with Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is.
[01:11:57.440 -> 01:12:01.160] And we see these other people live in these amazing lives.
[01:12:01.160 -> 01:12:04.600] And we think, God, I'm not worthy enough.
[01:12:04.600 -> 01:12:06.120] I'm not like them. I'm not like them, I'm not
[01:12:06.120 -> 01:12:11.160] as beautiful, I'm not as hard-working, I'm not in a gym as much, I don't earn as
[01:12:11.160 -> 01:12:16.800] much money, I don't drive that night, doesn't matter. If you can cut that fluff
[01:12:16.800 -> 01:12:25.160] away and be you regardless of what other people think about you. And I suppose the other thing
[01:12:25.160 -> 01:12:27.880] is surround yourself with people that
[01:12:27.880 -> 01:12:31.760] tell you what you need to know, not what
[01:12:31.760 -> 01:12:34.320] you want to know or what you want to be
[01:12:34.320 -> 01:12:36.800] told. And that comes back to that
[01:12:36.800 -> 01:12:41.120] self-belief. We live in a society that is
[01:12:41.120 -> 01:12:49.840] very fake and for the majority of people it erodes their self-belief and
[01:12:49.840 -> 01:12:57.680] if you want to be a high experience high performance or even good performance or be working at
[01:12:57.680 -> 01:13:03.600] an optimum level you've got to believe in yourself regardless of what others think and
[01:13:03.600 -> 01:13:06.680] that is in this day and age, it's hard.
[01:13:06.680 -> 01:13:11.720] Kenton, thank you so much. What a fascinating conversation, like the big
[01:13:11.720 -> 01:13:16.280] thing I've ringing in my ears is personal connection, you know, which we've
[01:13:16.280 -> 01:13:21.320] had I think during this conversation but you've clearly learned to have such deep
[01:13:21.320 -> 01:13:24.320] strong powerful connections with people whether you're on the mountain, whether
[01:13:24.320 -> 01:13:25.600] you're at home with your family and
[01:13:25.800 -> 01:13:31.240] It's a brilliant reminder for people in this world where we feel more connected than ever and actually we are more disconnected than ever
[01:13:31.520 -> 01:13:35.460] So thank you so much. Well, it was a pleasure really really interesting incredible
[01:13:36.120 -> 01:13:38.120] What a life
[01:13:41.180 -> 01:13:47.280] Damien Jake the standout for me from that conversation is the, the power of relationships, the power
[01:13:47.280 -> 01:13:50.160] of connection. I'm sure I've told you this before. I'll share it with the people on the
[01:13:50.160 -> 01:13:53.160] podcast. I remember when I first got into telly, I felt like I had to have an agent
[01:13:53.160 -> 01:13:56.960] around me or I had to say, Oh yeah, speak to my people. And it was only when I started
[01:13:56.960 -> 01:14:00.480] working with David Coulthard, you know, the 13 time Grand Prix winner who I worked with
[01:14:00.480 -> 01:14:11.240] on the Formula One coverage. And I said, who's your agent? And he goes, son, why would I want an agent? Life is about personal relationships. Trust me, if I'm talking about
[01:14:11.240 -> 01:14:16.880] making money, if I get to know someone, that is where the true financial impact lies. Because
[01:14:16.880 -> 01:14:21.440] if they know me and I know them, we can have an honest conversation about a deal or whatever.
[01:14:21.440 -> 01:14:24.360] And it's only all these years later that you have a conversation with someone like Kenton
[01:14:24.360 -> 01:14:28.200] and you realize that his entire life is built on knowing that personal
[01:14:28.200 -> 01:14:30.760] relationships not just relationships is what matters.
[01:14:30.760 -> 01:14:37.280] Yeah, there was a quote that came to mind about that, you know, every corpse on Everest
[01:14:37.280 -> 01:14:42.600] was once a highly motivated person. And the idea that climbing to the top of Everest is
[01:14:42.600 -> 01:14:45.760] a phenomenal feat and to do it 16 times as he's done is even more exceptional. But that ac y syniad o fod y climio i'r to ar Everest yn ddiddorol ffyrdd, ac i'w wneud 16 o weithiau fel y mae'n ei wneud,
[01:14:45.760 -> 01:14:52.640] mae'n fwy arbennig. Ond mae'r stori a ddweudwyd o'r Mr Lee, a dweudwyd yn unigol iawn
[01:14:52.640 -> 01:14:58.000] o ran ddod o hyd i'r fyny sydd oedd corps, mae'n ddangos cywir iawn o le
[01:14:58.000 -> 01:15:03.760] y bydd y gysylltiadau o'r ffordd y gallai ei gysylltu â'r sherpers,
[01:15:03.760 -> 01:15:06.040] i fynd i gynnal ddin yma, i fynd i gyfieithu gyda nhw, i fynd i laffo a crio gyda nhw, So the way that he was able to connect with the Sherpas, to go and eat in their houses,
[01:15:06.040 -> 01:15:07.400] to go and socialize with them,
[01:15:07.400 -> 01:15:09.600] to go and laugh and cry with them,
[01:15:09.600 -> 01:15:11.880] was actually what's kept him alive
[01:15:11.880 -> 01:15:14.520] on those 16 times of scaling Everest.
[01:15:14.520 -> 01:15:17.680] Because, you know, people don't care what you know
[01:15:17.680 -> 01:15:19.600] until they know how much you care.
[01:15:19.600 -> 01:15:23.120] And he was a really good example of that investment of time
[01:15:23.120 -> 01:15:24.560] is never wasted.
[01:15:24.560 -> 01:15:30.080] And also a reminder, I think, that you can be strong and you can be vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, that's
[01:15:30.080 -> 01:15:33.440] I mean that's a really interesting one isn't it? I know we spoke about having
[01:15:33.440 -> 01:15:38.360] binary thinking on the on the mountain when he's in the death zone of
[01:15:38.360 -> 01:15:42.240] seeing things in black and white terms, but I actually think what you're
[01:15:42.240 -> 01:15:45.800] describing there is adding the awe, so you can be vulnerable
[01:15:45.800 -> 01:15:52.720] and you can also be strong and not just thinking it's life is an either or process. You can
[01:15:52.720 -> 01:15:57.920] be both and. But also, like, who would you rather be taken up the mountain by, right?
[01:15:57.920 -> 01:16:02.960] Someone who is strong, like Kenton is, and knows the ropes and knows the sort of the
[01:16:02.960 -> 01:16:05.040] hard skills, the technical skills of climbing,
[01:16:05.040 -> 01:16:08.420] but also has emotion, has a vulnerability,
[01:16:08.420 -> 01:16:10.240] has an understanding of the human condition,
[01:16:10.240 -> 01:16:11.200] can relate to you.
[01:16:11.200 -> 01:16:13.020] Or do you want to be taken up by an automaton
[01:16:13.020 -> 01:16:14.720] that perhaps misses things
[01:16:14.720 -> 01:16:16.480] because they haven't got that emotional intelligence?
[01:16:16.480 -> 01:16:19.000] Like I want the leaders in my life,
[01:16:19.000 -> 01:16:20.600] whether they're my kids' teachers,
[01:16:20.600 -> 01:16:22.160] whether they're the people in my production company,
[01:16:22.160 -> 01:16:23.680] whether it's the people working on the podcast,
[01:16:23.680 -> 01:16:27.160] I want them to be vulnerable with an emotional intelligence,
[01:16:27.160 -> 01:16:31.440] with a fragility, with an ability to relate
[01:16:31.440 -> 01:16:32.960] and to empathize with each other.
[01:16:32.960 -> 01:16:33.780] Yeah.
[01:16:33.780 -> 01:16:35.800] Well, so often we've spoken on the podcast, haven't we?
[01:16:35.800 -> 01:16:37.480] That when you go on any quest,
[01:16:37.480 -> 01:16:39.320] whether it's you're going after high performance
[01:16:39.320 -> 01:16:41.900] or in Kenton's case, you're scaling a mountain,
[01:16:41.900 -> 01:16:43.240] you're still going to hit the messy middle,
[01:16:43.240 -> 01:16:45.520] that bit where it feels and looks like a failure. So that's where the emotional intelligence stuff ym mhob ffordd, y byddwch yn dal i ddod i'r cyfnod ymwneud y, lle mae'n teimlo a bydd yn edrych fel
[01:16:45.520 -> 01:16:51.040] gwaith. Felly dyna lle mae'r pethau'n ddifrifol ymdrechion yn dod i'w hun. Rhywun
[01:16:51.040 -> 01:16:55.040] sy'n gallu ddweud atoch a'ch ymdrechu am teimlo'n ddiddorol pan ydych chi'n cael y cyfnod ymwneud y
[01:16:55.040 -> 01:17:01.120] cyfnod ymwneud y, ond rhywun sy'n gallu ddod i'ch gilydd, y gallu ymdrechu gyda chi, y gallu deall
[01:17:01.120 -> 01:17:04.880] sut rydych chi'n teimlo i yna i gael eich gynnydd ar eich ffyrdd a'ch ymdrechu ar eich ffyrdd. Felly,
[01:17:04.880 -> 01:17:10.120] can understand how you feel to then get you back on your feet and carry on your journey. So I, yeah, exactly. I think it's almost such an underrated virtue.
[01:17:10.120 -> 01:17:11.120] Thanks a lot, mate.
[01:17:11.120 -> 01:17:13.960] Thanks Jake. I loved it.
[01:17:13.960 -> 01:17:17.560] It's now the part of the show where we welcome a high performance listener and we now welcome
[01:17:17.560 -> 01:17:23.640] Luke Tukutchi. Luke sent us an email actually to say that he's 41. He's the CEO of a housing
[01:17:23.640 -> 01:17:25.920] association in South Wales. He actually took
[01:17:25.920 -> 01:17:30.580] the job at 37, which is a big shout because he's got around 80 colleagues, they turn over
[01:17:30.580 -> 01:17:34.800] around £10 million a year. But he says he loves the role of the CEO. However, and we'll
[01:17:34.800 -> 01:17:39.520] talk about this in a moment, it can be lonely. He goes on to say that high performance has
[01:17:39.520 -> 01:17:43.600] given him an advantage he didn't think that he would have without it, opening the door
[01:17:43.600 -> 01:17:45.680] to so many inspirational leaders.
[01:17:45.680 -> 01:17:48.080] And he even took a recent exec away day,
[01:17:48.080 -> 01:17:50.800] starting with everyone's three non-negotiables.
[01:17:50.800 -> 01:17:53.400] So maybe we should find out his in a moment, Damien.
[01:17:53.400 -> 01:17:55.040] He says, I think your pod is a unique offer
[01:17:55.040 -> 01:17:57.000] for business leaders like myself,
[01:17:57.000 -> 01:17:59.760] and I'm not aware of anything else like it.
[01:17:59.760 -> 01:18:02.240] He mentions Rick Lewis, Steve Morgan, James Timpson,
[01:18:02.240 -> 01:18:06.660] Susie Ma, and the notes he made while listening to them. Well Luke, welcome!
[01:18:06.660 -> 01:18:09.240] Thanks guys, appreciate having on, it's brilliant to be here.
[01:18:09.240 -> 01:18:13.620] So was there a moment where you first sort of realised what high performance
[01:18:13.620 -> 01:18:16.800] could do for you and that it was more than just kind of listening to something
[01:18:16.800 -> 01:18:18.420] and moving on with your life?
[01:18:18.420 -> 01:18:20.980] Yeah, well I think if I look back now, so obviously
[01:18:20.980 -> 01:18:24.480] during a pandemic like many, sort of going for a run or just sat around the
[01:18:24.480 -> 01:18:27.800] house and having a listen, for me it's always, it's just amazing
[01:18:27.800 -> 01:18:32.440] sense check of, cause it is a lonely world and you've not really like many CEOs, you
[01:18:32.440 -> 01:18:35.960] haven't done it before. So when you step into that mantle, um, you've got to look outside
[01:18:35.960 -> 01:18:39.040] as well. So all of a sudden I was listening to people like, I remember Rick Lewis is the
[01:18:39.040 -> 01:18:43.440] one that always sticks with me. And I just thought, well, what an amazing sort of character,
[01:18:43.440 -> 01:18:49.160] the leadership side of that. And it's a nice sense check to know that what you're doing sometimes is like others are doing.
[01:18:49.160 -> 01:18:57.040] And obviously you've got to be confident in your own ability, but even how others lead businesses and their sort of culture and values was really useful for me.
[01:18:57.120 -> 01:19:06.720] So I think, yeah, that the Rick Lewis one always stands out. And the Suzy Marlowe one. I loved, I remember him talking about, sort of of don't sacrifice your right to be dumb.
[01:19:06.720 -> 01:19:12.720] Remember that? I'm sure you do. I know that's just really true because I see it so many times in my
[01:19:12.720 -> 01:19:17.680] business and other businesses where you see people around the table and it's just this fear of asking
[01:19:17.680 -> 01:19:22.560] the silly question. So I think for me it is our privilege if you can sort of pause and you can
[01:19:22.560 -> 01:19:26.600] say look let's go back over that and let's let's recheck that we need everyone in the business to
[01:19:26.600 -> 01:19:29.600] understand it otherwise we're just gonna be leaving the room not knowing what's
[01:19:29.600 -> 01:19:33.200] going on so that really stuck with me and I just I like this sort of balance
[01:19:33.200 -> 01:19:36.440] with you've got to have fun you're gonna enjoy it but you've got business focused at
[01:19:36.440 -> 01:19:40.520] times as well so that was that was one I enjoyed. And the one I mean the nature of
[01:19:40.520 -> 01:19:44.440] your work in sort of the housing association often sort of makes me think
[01:19:44.440 -> 01:19:48.760] of the Suzy Ma infinite purpose principle, the difference that you make
[01:19:48.760 -> 01:19:53.740] for the rest of the world. So what is that infinite purpose that you've
[01:19:53.740 -> 01:19:56.240] introduced in the Housing Association?
[01:19:56.240 -> 01:19:58.200] Yeah, so interestingly we use this in our
[01:19:58.200 -> 01:20:03.640] corporate way, they have to set a new plan. So I've always said the advantage for us
[01:20:03.640 -> 01:20:05.960] is we're dealing with people, so we're dealing with lives with the new people.
[01:20:05.960 -> 01:20:08.240] We've seen the impact it can have when you give someone a home,
[01:20:08.600 -> 01:20:09.800] how that can change someone's life.
[01:20:09.800 -> 01:20:13.360] So no disrespect to colleagues that sell paper clips, but we always say, look,
[01:20:13.360 -> 01:20:14.520] we're not selling paper clips.
[01:20:14.520 -> 01:20:17.280] We've got the advantage here of dealing with people first.
[01:20:17.960 -> 01:20:19.160] So we use that.
[01:20:19.160 -> 01:20:20.640] And ours, in answer to your question,
[01:20:20.640 -> 01:20:24.240] Damien is just about making a difference, a positive difference to someone's life.
[01:20:24.360 -> 01:20:26.640] And that can be in loads of different ways now, because
[01:20:27.040 -> 01:20:29.680] we're no longer just building homes and managing homes. We,
[01:20:29.960 -> 01:20:32.720] we do projects in the community around employment, apprenticeships,
[01:20:32.720 -> 01:20:35.800] training. So you see that broad sort of spectrum now of how you
[01:20:35.800 -> 01:20:37.880] can make a difference in a positive way.
[01:20:38.280 -> 01:20:41.000] Would you mind sharing with our listeners some tips that you
[01:20:41.040 -> 01:20:44.400] you've got for how you don't get overwhelmed by the fact that
[01:20:44.400 -> 01:20:47.720] your work actually is life-changing and life-saving in some
[01:20:47.720 -> 01:20:52.160] cases. Do you have tips and tricks that you use to not allow it to overwhelm you
[01:20:52.160 -> 01:20:55.800] and to sort of stay in the blue brain space rather than letting emotion take
[01:20:55.800 -> 01:20:59.040] over? Well for me it's really about having the balance so when you've got
[01:20:59.040 -> 01:21:04.880] family, three kids, the job, always taking that down time so I always reflect, have a
[01:21:04.880 -> 01:21:05.440] bit of time at the end of the day. I'm an early time. So I always reflect, have a bit of time
[01:21:05.440 -> 01:21:06.520] at the end of the day.
[01:21:06.520 -> 01:21:08.280] I'm an early riser, I think I said that in the email.
[01:21:08.280 -> 01:21:10.800] So that really helps me get prepared for the day.
[01:21:10.800 -> 01:21:12.320] So getting up.
[01:21:12.320 -> 01:21:13.400] What do you do in that time?
[01:21:13.400 -> 01:21:14.240] I usually exercise.
[01:21:14.240 -> 01:21:17.560] So I usually go to the gym for like 45 minutes,
[01:21:17.560 -> 01:21:19.960] but then I'll get my email sorted,
[01:21:19.960 -> 01:21:21.000] get my notes for the day,
[01:21:21.000 -> 01:21:22.700] just things I need to be prepared with,
[01:21:22.700 -> 01:21:24.020] look at my diary for the,
[01:21:24.020 -> 01:21:27.480] I'm always like a week or two ahead. So that really helps. And just getting outside as well at the end of the day, just things I need to be prepared with, looking at my diary for the, I'm always like a week or two ahead. So that really helps. Um, and just getting
[01:21:27.480 -> 01:21:31.600] outside as well at the end of the day, whether that's with the kids or just having a stroll
[01:21:31.600 -> 01:21:34.160] podcast, wherever it might be, you've got to have that balance. So I've, I've never
[01:21:34.160 -> 01:21:38.200] been one. I've never thought it's badge of honor. Like last one in the office. And I've
[01:21:38.200 -> 01:21:41.280] worked with people like that over the years and you see them really struggling and they're
[01:21:41.280 -> 01:21:44.660] sort of there at seven o'clock at night. They're not productive. So that's one of the biggest
[01:21:44.660 -> 01:21:45.320] things I've learned over the pandemic is we they're not productive. So that's one of the biggest things I've learned
[01:21:45.320 -> 01:21:48.200] over the pandemic is we were far more productive.
[01:21:48.200 -> 01:21:51.040] So we switched everyone to nine day, four nights,
[01:21:51.040 -> 01:21:51.920] no core hours.
[01:21:51.920 -> 01:21:54.360] We got great flexibility for colleagues across the business
[01:21:54.360 -> 01:21:56.240] where they just trust them to do the job,
[01:21:56.240 -> 01:21:58.800] just do the job and be good at it is the main thing.
[01:21:58.800 -> 01:22:00.360] And one of the comments you made Luke
[01:22:00.360 -> 01:22:03.720] was about the loneliness a bit of leadership.
[01:22:04.560 -> 01:22:05.400] How do you cope with that?
[01:22:05.400 -> 01:22:10.360] I've almost got this like an official board around me outside of work if that
[01:22:10.360 -> 01:22:14.800] makes sense. So I've got the board I operate with, my chair in work, outside
[01:22:14.800 -> 01:22:17.680] work. I've got lots of friends that do different in different industries and
[01:22:17.680 -> 01:22:22.920] sectors. My wife bless her, she knows when I come down. That transitions
[01:22:22.920 -> 01:22:26.000] hard sometimes from work. I'm in the office more now but
[01:22:26.000 -> 01:22:28.000] I've not transitioned getting out of the work space
[01:22:28.000 -> 01:22:30.000] so I need lots of good people around me.
[01:22:30.000 -> 01:22:32.000] So I've had coaches and mentors like lots of
[01:22:32.000 -> 01:22:34.000] chief execs do, but I'll sit
[01:22:34.000 -> 01:22:36.000] and have a coffee or a pint with someone and have a
[01:22:36.000 -> 01:22:38.000] chat, talk about problems
[01:22:38.000 -> 01:22:40.000] and we're all sharing them. And in those informal
[01:22:40.000 -> 01:22:42.000] chats, whether it's with a coach or
[01:22:42.000 -> 01:22:44.000] your wife or some of your
[01:22:44.000 -> 01:22:49.360] mates in the pub, what's the one piece of advice that you've picked up that you would want to
[01:22:49.360 -> 01:22:55.040] pass on to our listeners? The biggest thing for me is you can't put too much
[01:22:55.040 -> 01:22:59.260] pressure on yourself so you need to understand that it's just like a small
[01:22:59.260 -> 01:23:03.320] step sometimes so I've always been about vision and optimism and look into the
[01:23:03.320 -> 01:23:08.560] future but you've got to sometimes I think in a business realize that whilst someone described to me recently
[01:23:08.560 -> 01:23:09.760] What's your on the balcony?
[01:23:09.760 -> 01:23:13.880] Most people in the business can be on the dance floor and it's really important to go back and check
[01:23:14.000 -> 01:23:19.040] so you've got to make sure you check and take steps and just celebrate the good things as they happen because
[01:23:19.400 -> 01:23:23.120] You can always be looking to the big vision at the end. If you don't celebrate the little things
[01:23:23.120 -> 01:23:25.520] I think people won't be with you on that journey.
[01:23:25.520 -> 01:23:29.240] I like that. When you're on the balcony, they're on the dance floor.
[01:23:29.240 -> 01:23:32.760] That one stuck in me. I was someone who was a business psychologist who worked with us
[01:23:32.760 -> 01:23:37.520] and she, yeah, we did personality profiles. So obviously you're always looking to learn.
[01:23:37.520 -> 01:23:41.680] I have to, I just got to stop and pause sometimes. I think if I'm being honest.
[01:23:41.680 -> 01:23:46.080] It's really good stuff. Listen, Luke, thank you so much for getting in touch with us and sharing that.
[01:23:46.080 -> 01:23:48.600] And I think that, you know, it's quite easy,
[01:23:48.600 -> 01:23:50.020] and Damien and I are well aware of this,
[01:23:50.020 -> 01:23:51.880] it's easy to be quite sniffy and cynical
[01:23:51.880 -> 01:23:54.440] about having conversations with people
[01:23:54.440 -> 01:23:56.640] and thinking they actually are changing the lives
[01:23:56.640 -> 01:23:58.120] and the mindsets and the approach of others.
[01:23:58.120 -> 01:24:00.560] You know, it is, as we will say, it is just a podcast.
[01:24:00.560 -> 01:24:01.860] We're just having a chat with people,
[01:24:01.860 -> 01:24:04.040] but you are testament to the fact
[01:24:04.040 -> 01:24:05.580] you can be a CEO with loads of
[01:24:05.580 -> 01:24:09.800] staff, turnover in the many millions, and you are genuinely
[01:24:09.800 -> 01:24:12.280] being helped by this podcast. And that for us is really
[01:24:12.280 -> 01:24:13.520] humbling to hear. So thank you, man.
[01:24:13.560 -> 01:24:16.120] Fantastic. Appreciate being on. Really enjoyed it. Cheers, guys.
[01:24:18.600 -> 01:24:22.400] Wow, what an episode, hey, don't forget, if you want to join us
[01:24:22.440 -> 01:24:24.880] for a special live night of high performance, where we bring
[01:24:24.880 -> 01:24:35.000] together so much of the learnings over the past three years, then head right now to NorwichTheatre.org or to thehighperformancepodcast.com
[01:24:35.000 -> 01:24:45.600] And come and join us on the 5th of February in Norwich at the Norwich Theatre Royal for a big live high performance extravaganza. I'd love to see you there. But whether you
[01:24:45.600 -> 01:24:49.320] can make it there or not, I just want to say thank you. Last week, our conversation with
[01:24:49.320 -> 01:24:54.280] Mo Gowdat, the happiness expert, touched and reached so many people. And I know how much
[01:24:54.280 -> 01:24:58.720] you shared that among your own community. And that makes such a difference to us. So
[01:24:58.720 -> 01:25:03.760] thank you for continuing to spread the learnings from these conversations. Thanks as well to
[01:25:03.760 -> 01:25:05.120] Finn, to Hannah, to Will,
[01:25:05.120 -> 01:25:09.840] to Eve, to Gemma and Callum for their hard work today. Remember, there is no secret,
[01:25:09.840 -> 01:25:40.000] it's all there for you. So chase world-class basics, don't get high on your own supply, 🎵
[01:25:36.420 -> 01:25:38.480] you