Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 08 Aug 2022 04:00:25 GMT
Duration:
1:22:01
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
It has been 2 years since Jake and Damian first sat down with Frank Lampard. In this new episode the three of them return to their previous discussion to see what has changed, what has stayed the same and the steps he’s been taking to change his life…
Frank is the current manager of Premier League club Everton and former Chelsea manager and their record goal scorer. In this episode Frank reflects on his time at Chelsea, the things he was right about and what he could have done better. Frank shares how important alignment is at a football club, the need for optimism is in his working life, especially as someone who is not used to losing. He speaks on his biggest strengths and weaknesses.
If you subscribe to HP Plus, you can enjoy an extended episode, ad-free with Frank.
- - - - - -
Pre-order the new High Performance Daily Journal - 365 ways to become your best! smarturl.it/HPJournal
Want even more from High Performance? We have launched our brand new premium podcast service 'High Performance Plus' for people who want to support the podcast, listen to ad-free episodes and have access to exclusive bonus content so we can get you even closer to a life of high performance. We'll ask our guests extra questions, just for you and keep recording when the mic stops so you will hear those slightly more intimate conversations at the end of each record. Expect more from Jake and Damian, as they'll be doing regular Q+As and bring you behind the scenes gems that you wouldn't normally get. We hope you love the extra content. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic. Sign up on Apple Podcasts apple.co/highperformance or Supercast https://highperformanceplus.supercast.com/
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## Summary of the Podcast Episode Transcript:
The podcast episode features a conversation between Frank Lampard, former Chelsea manager and current manager of Everton, and the hosts, Jake Humphrey and Professor Damian Hughes, an expert in high-performing team cultures. The discussion revolves around leadership, culture, and the challenges faced by managers in the football world.
**Key Points:**
- **Alignment and Culture:** Frank Lampard emphasizes the importance of alignment and a clear vision within a football club. He believes that a shared understanding of goals and objectives among all stakeholders, from owners to players, is crucial for sustained success.
- **Chelsea's Cultural Challenges:** Lampard reflects on his time at Chelsea, acknowledging that there were cultural misalignments that hindered his ability to implement his desired changes. He suggests that the club's ownership structure and the involvement of multiple decision-makers may have contributed to these challenges.
- **Timing and Uncontrollables:** Lampard acknowledges that timing plays a significant role in a manager's success. He highlights the need to be patient and to recognize that certain factors, such as injuries or unexpected events, can impact results. He also emphasizes the importance of adapting to the uncontrollable elements of the game.
- **Prioritizing and Managing Expectations:** Lampard discusses the importance of prioritizing tasks and managing expectations. He emphasizes the need to focus on immediate goals, such as staying in the Premier League, before addressing long-term objectives. He also acknowledges the pressure and scrutiny that managers face, especially at clubs with high expectations.
- **Learning from Mistakes:** Lampard reflects on his experiences at Chelsea and identifies areas where he could have improved. He acknowledges that he may have been too focused on changing the club's culture and behavior, which may have caused some friction. He emphasizes the importance of learning from mistakes and adapting to different circumstances.
- **The Impact of Thomas Tuchel:** Lampard acknowledges the success of Thomas Tuchel, who succeeded him as Chelsea manager and won the Champions League with the same squad. He suggests that Tuchel's arrival brought a fresh perspective and a change in tactics, which helped improve the team's performance.
- **The Importance of Optimism:** Lampard stresses the importance of maintaining optimism and a positive mindset, especially in challenging times. He believes that a positive outlook can help managers overcome obstacles and achieve success.
- **Balancing Work and Personal Life:** Lampard discusses the challenges of balancing his work as a manager with his personal life. He emphasizes the importance of finding time for family and friends and engaging in activities outside of football to maintain a healthy work-life balance.
- **The Role of Empathy:** Lampard highlights the significance of empathy in leadership. He believes that understanding the perspectives and emotions of players and staff is crucial for building strong relationships and creating a positive team culture.
- **The Value of Reflection:** Lampard reflects on his journey as a manager and emphasizes the importance of self-reflection. He believes that taking time to assess one's strengths, weaknesses, and areas for improvement is essential for continuous growth and development.
**Navigating the Ups and Downs of Football Management: A Conversation with Frank Lampard**
**Introduction**
In this episode, Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes revisit their previous discussion with Frank Lampard, the current manager of Premier League club Everton and former Chelsea manager and their record goal scorer. Lampard reflects on his time at Chelsea, the things he was right about and what he could have done better. He shares his insights on the importance of alignment at a football club, the need for optimism in his working life, and his biggest strengths and weaknesses.
**Key Points**
* **Alignment and Communication:** Lampard emphasizes the significance of alignment and communication within a football club. He believes that a shared vision and understanding among the ownership, management, and players are crucial for success. He acknowledges that he could have done a better job in communicating his vision and expectations during his time at Chelsea.
* **Importance of Optimism:** Lampard stresses the importance of maintaining a positive outlook, even in challenging times. He explains that as someone who is not accustomed to losing, he had to work on his optimism during his tenure at Everton, where the team faced a relegation battle. He emphasizes the need for managers to be a positive influence on their players, especially during difficult periods.
* **Balancing Intensity and Balance:** Lampard reflects on the intense approach he adopted during his final month at Chelsea, acknowledging that it was not conducive to his overall well-being. He recognizes the value of finding a balance between intensity and personal well-being, ensuring that he is not constantly operating at an unsustainable level of intensity.
* **Exploring New Perspectives:** Lampard discusses the benefits of taking a break from football management. He explains that the year he spent out of work allowed him to explore new perspectives, learn from different experiences, and appreciate the importance of life balance. He emphasizes the value of stepping back and taking time to reflect on one's career and personal life.
* **Adapting to Different Managerial Situations:** Lampard highlights the need for managers to adapt their approach based on the specific circumstances of each club. He acknowledges that the expectations and pressures at Chelsea were significantly different from those at Everton, and he had to adjust his management style accordingly. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the unique challenges and opportunities presented by each club.
* **Finding the Right Balance:** Lampard reflects on the challenges of finding the right balance between his professional and personal life. He recognizes that his intense focus on his work at Chelsea may have come at the expense of his family life. He emphasizes the importance of prioritizing personal relationships and finding a balance that allows for both professional success and personal fulfillment.
**Conclusion**
Frank Lampard's journey as a football manager has been marked by both triumphs and setbacks. Through his experiences, he has gained valuable insights into the importance of alignment, communication, optimism, and balance. His ability to adapt to different managerial situations and find the right balance between his professional and personal life has been instrumental in his success. Lampard's story serves as a reminder that even in the face of adversity, resilience, adaptability, and a commitment to continuous improvement can lead to positive outcomes.
# High Performance Podcast Episode Summary: Frank Lampard's Journey at Everton
**Introduction:**
* This episode revisits a previous conversation with Frank Lampard, the current manager of Everton and former Chelsea manager.
* The discussion focuses on Lampard's time at Chelsea, his reflections on his tenure, and the changes he's made to improve his managerial approach.
**Key Points:**
* **Alignment within the Club:**
* Lampard emphasizes the importance of alignment at a football club.
* He believes that everyone, from the players to the staff, must be on the same page and working towards a common goal.
* **The Power of Optimism:**
* Lampard highlights the need for optimism in his working life, especially as someone not accustomed to losing.
* He discusses the challenges of maintaining a positive mindset during difficult times and the impact it has on the team.
* **Balancing Positivity and Honesty:**
* Lampard talks about the delicate balance between providing positive reinforcement and delivering honest feedback to players.
* He explains that while positivity is essential, it's equally important to address performance issues and hold players accountable.
* **Adapting to Changing Circumstances:**
* Lampard reflects on the dynamic nature of football management and the need to adapt to changing situations.
* He emphasizes the importance of being flexible and making tactical adjustments based on the team's performance and the opposition's strengths.
* **Connecting with the Fans:**
* Lampard discusses the significance of connecting with the fans and understanding their sentiments.
* He shares his experiences of engaging with Everton fans and the positive impact it has had on his relationship with the club and the community.
* **Building Resilience:**
* Lampard recounts a challenging period during his time at Everton when the team faced relegation.
* He highlights the importance of building resilience and maintaining a positive mindset during difficult times.
* **The Role of Staff and Experience:**
* Lampard reflects on the composition of his coaching staff and the value of having a mix of experience and fresh perspectives.
* He emphasizes the importance of surrounding himself with individuals who complement each other's strengths and weaknesses.
* **Non-Negotiables:**
* Lampard shares his three non-negotiables in the workplace: hard work, respect, and happiness.
* He believes that these core values are essential for creating a positive and productive work environment.
* **Sense of Community at Everton:**
* Lampard expresses his appreciation for the strong sense of community at Everton.
* He highlights the passion and dedication of the fans and how it motivates him to succeed as their manager.
**Conclusion:**
* Lampard emphasizes the importance of learning from mistakes, adapting to changing circumstances, and maintaining a positive mindset in the face of challenges.
* He highlights the value of alignment, optimism, and resilience in achieving success in football management.
* Lampard's journey at Everton showcases his growth as a manager and his commitment to creating a positive and successful environment for the club and its fans.
## Podcast Episode Summary: Frank Lampard Returns ##
- Frank Lampard, former Chelsea manager and record goal scorer, reflects on his time at Chelsea, his strengths and weaknesses, and his current role as manager of Premier League club Everton.
- Lampard emphasizes the importance of alignment within a football club and the need for optimism in his working life, especially as someone who is not accustomed to losing.
- He identifies his greatest strength as resilience and his biggest weakness as impatience.
- Lampard stresses the importance of focus, clear vision, and adaptability in achieving a high-performance life.
- He highlights the value of self-reflection and acknowledges that he did not communicate properly with those above him at Chelsea, leading to problems.
- Lampard shares an anecdote about a mistake he made early in his managerial career, which taught him the importance of listening to advice and taking responsibility for one's actions.
- He emphasizes the significance of psychological resilience and the role of a strong social network in supporting resilience.
- Lampard discusses the challenges he and his family faced when his daughter Isla was diagnosed with leukemia, and how he used physical challenges to connect with her experience and raise awareness for cancer charities.
- He credits his daughter Isla as his resilience role model and highlights the importance of vulnerability and shared purpose in achieving success.
- Lampard shares the good news that Isla has defeated cancer and is now in remission.
- The episode concludes with a reminder about the High Performance Plus premium subscription service, which offers ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content.
# Frank Lampard: Revisiting the Journey
In this episode, Jake Humphrey, Damian Hughes, and Frank Lampard, the current manager of Everton and former Chelsea legend, revisit their previous discussion from two years ago to reflect on Lampard's journey, his time at Chelsea, and the steps he's taken to evolve as a manager.
## Key Points:
- **Alignment at a Football Club:** Lampard emphasizes the significance of alignment within a football club. He believes that everyone, from the players to the staff, must share the same vision and work together to achieve success.
- **Optimism in Leadership:** As someone who is not accustomed to losing, Lampard recognizes the importance of maintaining optimism in his work life. He strives to create a positive and encouraging environment for his team, fostering a belief in their abilities and the possibility of success.
- **Strengths and Weaknesses:** Lampard acknowledges his strengths as a leader, including his ability to connect with players, motivate them, and instill a sense of belief. However, he also acknowledges areas where he can improve, such as his tactical decision-making and game management.
- **Extended Episode on HP Plus:** Subscribers to HP Plus can enjoy an extended version of the episode, free from advertisements, with additional insights and exclusive content from Frank Lampard.
- **High Performance Daily Journal:** Jake and Damian promote their new High Performance Daily Journal, a 365-day guide to personal development and achieving high performance.
- **High Performance Plus:** They also introduce their premium podcast service, High Performance Plus, which offers ad-free episodes, exclusive bonus content, Q&A sessions, and behind-the-scenes access for dedicated listeners.
- **Social Media and YouTube:** The podcast is available on various platforms, including Apple Podcasts, Supercast, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Telegram, allowing listeners to connect with the hosts and engage with the community.
## Conclusion:
Frank Lampard's journey as a manager has been characterized by a focus on alignment, optimism, and self-improvement. His reflections on his time at Chelsea and his current role at Everton provide valuable insights into the world of football management and the pursuit of high performance.
[00:00.000 -> 00:04.880] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance.
[00:04.880 -> 00:08.680] This is our gift to you for free every single week.
[00:08.680 -> 00:13.240] This is the chart-topping podcast that reminds you that it's within.
[00:13.240 -> 00:16.760] Your ambition, your purpose, your story, it's all within.
[00:16.760 -> 00:20.560] We just help you unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest
[00:20.560 -> 00:22.660] performers into your life lessons.
[00:22.660 -> 00:25.920] So right now, allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes,
[00:25.920 -> 00:28.540] an expert in high-performing team cultures,
[00:28.540 -> 00:31.700] to speak to the greatest leaders, thinkers, entrepreneurs,
[00:31.700 -> 00:35.160] and in this case, sports stars on the planet,
[00:35.160 -> 00:36.240] so they can be your teacher.
[00:36.240 -> 00:37.240] Please remember, right,
[00:37.240 -> 00:39.280] this podcast is not about high achievement,
[00:39.280 -> 00:40.760] it's not about high success,
[00:40.760 -> 00:43.800] it's only about high happiness, high self-worth,
[00:43.800 -> 00:45.120] taking you closer to a life of
[00:45.120 -> 00:52.280] fulfilment, empathy and understanding. You will be in a better place for being with us
[00:52.280 -> 01:08.420] for the next hour. It's as simple as that out of nowhere, we were second in the league and came into a short run of
[01:08.420 -> 01:13.580] defeats which saw me lose my job in the space of a month. From second in the table to ninth
[01:13.580 -> 01:18.260] the way it went and four defeats in the league and boom, you're gone. But in that period
[01:18.260 -> 01:23.300] I was striving to solve 100 problems. As I came away I went, don't get in that position
[01:23.300 -> 01:30.080] again Frank, you've got to trust in yourself in those moments. Probably I felt what was coming, it certainly wasn't
[01:30.080 -> 01:33.660] just my fault by the way because I think that should be a two-way responsibility because
[01:33.660 -> 01:39.000] you need to feel support. Like you were saying about how do you get a long-term vision, well
[01:39.000 -> 01:42.200] you better be supported back when it is a little bit tough because that's the reality
[01:42.200 -> 01:47.860] of football unless you're like Liverpool and City winning every game. But let's not forget when those early stages of
[01:47.860 -> 01:52.120] Liverpool come in here, some tough moments, Jürgen Klopp's first year before that or
[01:52.120 -> 01:56.160] Pep Guadalajara, nothing's perfect. They work through these and they have trust and sometimes
[01:56.160 -> 02:00.480] the trust comes from their previous work and fair play to them because they can both go,
[02:00.480 -> 02:09.120] I've done this and done this. I suppose at Chelsea I didn't have a body of work to go I've done this, so I suppose that maybe didn't work for me in that sense.
[02:09.120 -> 02:12.640] There is an idea of a vision here and I really hope that we can stick to it through the tough
[02:12.640 -> 02:17.040] times because they will be here for us. We saw that last year, we were in a whisker of
[02:17.040 -> 02:21.200] going down into the Championship and so we have to just respect that for what it is and
[02:21.200 -> 02:29.040] go, okay, we better make some changes. it's not just about what play we bring in in this window it's also about every little thing that we do to get that
[02:29.040 -> 02:33.440] long-term thing in that plan to bring it into practice. I want to be on the pitch after a
[02:33.440 -> 02:37.280] game if we win and I want to walk around Goodison and say thanks very much and feel that I get a
[02:37.280 -> 02:44.240] buzz off that. So welcome along then to round two with Frank Lampard and I'm sure some of you are
[02:44.240 -> 02:47.400] thinking well they've already had Frank Lampard on the podcast a couple of years ago,
[02:47.400 -> 02:48.100] and that's right.
[02:48.100 -> 02:51.400] However, this is a totally different Frank Lampard.
[02:51.600 -> 02:55.600] This is an episode that is a reminder to you all the time that you are not fixed.
[02:56.400 -> 02:57.500] And at the end of this episode,
[02:57.500 -> 02:59.800] you will be a different person to the one listening right now.
[02:59.800 -> 03:00.800] That is how life works.
[03:00.800 -> 03:01.900] That's how life changes.
[03:01.900 -> 03:06.080] And Frank is a totally different person to two years ago when we spoke to him.
[03:06.080 -> 03:09.440] Since then, he's had the sack from Chelsea, he's survived Everton.
[03:09.440 -> 03:11.720] The whole thing has been a huge learning curve for him.
[03:11.720 -> 03:16.600] But this idea that nothing is fixed is really good news for you.
[03:16.600 -> 03:19.520] And you need to understand it because if things are bad for you right now, and if you've come
[03:19.520 -> 03:23.240] to high performance because you're struggling or life isn't where you want it to be, then
[03:23.240 -> 03:27.640] the fact that nothing is fixed, nothing is permanent and everything can change is
[03:27.640 -> 03:31.120] great news for you. Equally if life is amazing at the moment, if you're flying,
[03:31.120 -> 03:34.920] if you're winning, if you're feeling fantastic, please remember that nothing
[03:34.920 -> 03:39.360] is fixed. This state won't last forever and that's why, while you have it, you
[03:39.360 -> 03:42.760] need to understand why it's there and that way you can then get it back and
[03:42.760 -> 03:47.280] you also need to just savour it. I've said that for years, those two important words,
[03:47.280 -> 03:48.880] savour it because trust me,
[03:48.880 -> 03:51.280] none of us have as much time as we think.
[03:51.280 -> 03:53.660] So explore life while you're here.
[03:53.660 -> 03:55.280] You're gonna hear Frank talk
[03:55.280 -> 03:56.720] about the culture clash at Chelsea.
[03:56.720 -> 03:59.060] And I think that's a really good reminder
[03:59.060 -> 04:00.800] of the fact that there's so much that we don't know
[04:00.800 -> 04:02.240] that goes on in this world.
[04:02.240 -> 04:03.920] And it's very easy for people to look at it
[04:03.920 -> 04:04.760] from the outside and go,
[04:04.760 -> 04:05.200] oh, not as good a manager as we thought he was, much that we don't know that goes on in this world. And it's very easy for people to look at it from the outside and go, Oh,
[04:05.400 -> 04:08.640] not as good a manager as we thought he was or wasn't able
[04:08.640 -> 04:09.800] to manage those players.
[04:10.600 -> 04:13.240] We didn't know the full story and we're closer to knowing
[04:13.240 -> 04:15.800] the full story after this hour that we spent with Frank Lampard.
[04:16.600 -> 04:18.600] But let that be a reminder to you that you know so
[04:18.600 -> 04:20.300] little about everyone else's lives.
[04:21.000 -> 04:26.000] And therefore you must value empathy over opinion every single time.
[04:26.000 -> 04:29.300] As always, this is not a conversation about football.
[04:29.300 -> 04:31.200] This isn't a conversation with a football manager.
[04:31.200 -> 04:36.600] This is a conversation about life with an inquisitive human being who,
[04:36.600 -> 04:40.300] trust me, and I've now been lucky enough to know Frank for the last four or five years,
[04:40.300 -> 04:43.000] he is a totally different person.
[04:43.000 -> 04:46.400] Totally different to the guy that I first met when he was
[04:46.400 -> 04:48.500] fresh out of the game, very different to the man who was
[04:48.500 -> 04:52.000] managing Chelsea and even different to six months ago before
[04:52.000 -> 04:54.100] he kept Everton in the Premier League.
[04:54.200 -> 04:56.400] So enjoy this episode of High Performance.
[04:56.800 -> 05:07.000] Frank Lampard comes next. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like to do the opposite of what big wireless
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[07:12.320 -> 07:24.720] welcome back thank you so like you I was listening to the first episode and I thought we would
[07:24.720 -> 07:26.120] start with what is high performance
[07:26.120 -> 07:29.120] But maybe start with whether anything's different
[07:29.120 -> 07:34.900] So you're when we spoke initially you said hard work talent and a certain type of intelligence represents high performance
[07:34.900 -> 07:38.480] Have any of those three changed in the intervening two years since we last spoke?
[07:39.200 -> 07:41.600] No, none of those three has changed and
[07:42.400 -> 07:44.400] Listening back to it this morning
[07:44.680 -> 07:45.160] I've done the bike in the in the gym. I was pleased I went through it because I was pleasing myself None of those three has changed. And listening back to it this morning,
[07:45.160 -> 07:47.500] I was on the bike in the gym.
[07:47.500 -> 07:48.560] I was pleased I went through it
[07:48.560 -> 07:49.480] because I was pleasing myself.
[07:49.480 -> 07:50.560] I thought, no, I still feel like that.
[07:50.560 -> 07:51.680] It's a good thing.
[07:51.680 -> 07:53.000] There's some add-ons, I think.
[07:53.000 -> 07:54.360] And it's a strange thing, isn't it?
[07:54.360 -> 07:56.760] I think in life and in management,
[07:57.760 -> 07:58.680] on your job, whatever,
[07:58.680 -> 08:00.440] I think there's this balance of
[08:00.440 -> 08:02.900] how much do I evolve and change for the better?
[08:02.900 -> 08:04.760] And how much do I stick to my core beliefs
[08:04.760 -> 08:07.600] of what I think I'm about and what gets me there?
[08:07.600 -> 08:10.240] And then you get affected by, you know,
[08:10.240 -> 08:12.320] a hundred things, sometimes a hundred things a day
[08:12.320 -> 08:13.360] as a manager.
[08:13.360 -> 08:15.560] And the big thing that happened to me, obviously,
[08:15.560 -> 08:17.440] is I lost my job after speaking to you.
[08:17.440 -> 08:19.680] And it's funny as well, Damian, later on in the episode,
[08:19.680 -> 08:22.680] you know, you called it the messy patch or something.
[08:22.680 -> 08:25.400] You talked about my curve and you called it.
[08:25.400 -> 08:26.240] It's coming.
[08:26.240 -> 08:27.060] I agree.
[08:27.060 -> 08:28.680] You said, oh, we've already had that, I think.
[08:28.680 -> 08:29.520] Do you remember?
[08:29.520 -> 08:31.280] You went, no, I think we've had the messy middle.
[08:31.280 -> 08:32.480] How wrong was I?
[08:32.480 -> 08:34.440] But that's life and that's fine.
[08:34.440 -> 08:37.240] But I think the one thing I would add to it,
[08:37.240 -> 08:38.120] and it probably correlates
[08:38.120 -> 08:39.560] with what happened in my job there
[08:39.560 -> 08:41.680] and probably what I'm working now at Everton
[08:41.680 -> 08:43.340] in different circumstances.
[08:43.340 -> 08:47.120] I think I said a few things that you can control yourself.
[08:47.120 -> 08:48.840] I mean, intelligence is a weird one,
[08:48.840 -> 08:51.780] but my point was more work smart, do those things.
[08:51.780 -> 08:54.280] So the one thing I didn't, which I would add now,
[08:54.280 -> 08:57.100] is timing and the uncontrollables,
[08:57.960 -> 08:59.560] which I listen to a lot of your stuff
[08:59.560 -> 09:01.640] and I listen to a lot of podcasts,
[09:01.640 -> 09:04.440] and I had a year to do that, actually, out of a job.
[09:04.440 -> 09:07.840] And some of these podcasts podcasts you can come away from
[09:07.840 -> 09:09.700] and hear great stories of amazing teams
[09:09.700 -> 09:11.480] of multiple champions of winners
[09:11.480 -> 09:13.720] and individual stories, team stories.
[09:13.720 -> 09:16.040] And I always kind of go, having been in this,
[09:16.040 -> 09:17.960] the more I lived the situation,
[09:17.960 -> 09:20.080] how perfect is the story really?
[09:20.080 -> 09:21.280] Because it sounds great.
[09:21.280 -> 09:23.740] This person, a great coach can be telling you about it.
[09:23.740 -> 09:25.360] And American football is something that I don't know much about in terms of detail. But I'm like, wow, this person, a great coach, he'd be telling you about it. And American football is something
[09:25.360 -> 09:27.040] I don't know much about in terms of detail.
[09:27.040 -> 09:28.840] But I'm like, wow, Sam, what a great idea that was.
[09:28.840 -> 09:31.080] And he had an incredible environment of players
[09:31.080 -> 09:33.720] and they all worked together and they won these things.
[09:33.720 -> 09:35.760] And then I wondered about how true that is.
[09:35.760 -> 09:37.120] And sometimes when you're telling the story,
[09:37.120 -> 09:38.480] you refer back to certain parts.
[09:38.480 -> 09:41.160] Not everything's like this, it's just my feeling.
[09:41.160 -> 09:43.520] And my feeling as I came out of it was
[09:43.520 -> 09:50.700] you have to have time in in which means lots of things, talent, recruitment and the main thing I felt is an
[09:50.700 -> 09:54.900] alignment when you're working in team sport and at a club and a corporation
[09:54.900 -> 09:59.820] whatever it is, there has to be an alignment in terms of the idea and
[09:59.820 -> 10:02.660] that's something that I think is a huge thing. Now not everybody has to think
[10:02.660 -> 10:06.680] exactly the same but you have to have a vision and a target you want to get to and a basic idea of how
[10:06.680 -> 10:10.080] you get there. And I think if those things aren't aligned in team sport, I think it's
[10:10.080 -> 10:14.040] probably hard to get there. And I think we've got some pretty good examples in the Premier
[10:14.040 -> 10:19.400] League straight away when you look at the evolution of Liverpool and Manchester City.
[10:19.400 -> 10:23.240] Liverpool had a lot of years without winning anything and it seems like that at some point,
[10:23.240 -> 10:26.060] somewhere it happened, probably Jurgen Klopp is a huge part of it but
[10:26.060 -> 10:30.000] where things change and aligned and what's in the direction and we see the
[10:30.000 -> 10:33.640] results and Manchester City I was lucky enough to have a year there and even
[10:33.640 -> 10:37.760] though it was before this this sort of dominations happened with Pep Guardiola
[10:37.760 -> 10:42.040] you smelt the building it was an alignment of this is where we're gonna
[10:42.040 -> 10:48.320] get to and it doesn't matter that we came the year I I was there we came second and probably fell below expectations for a
[10:48.320 -> 10:53.200] club. You could see it's no surprise to me I left because from owner, chairman, sporting
[10:53.200 -> 10:57.080] director, whatever, all the way down through there was something about the place that was
[10:57.080 -> 10:59.480] going in one place. So I think that's a really interesting thing.
[10:59.480 -> 11:07.440] Let's delve deeper then into alignment and how you get it, why it's not there. I you can... I assume what you're saying is there wasn't an alignment at Chelsea,
[11:07.440 -> 11:09.400] culturally, between you and them?
[11:09.400 -> 11:14.600] Yeah, possibly and I'm not taking away my responsibility because I think you've got to be able to deal with it
[11:14.600 -> 11:19.920] whatever it is because that's success and success is relative. So there are
[11:19.920 -> 11:23.760] things that probably I went in and again it fascinates me when I listen to
[11:23.760 -> 11:28.240] yourselves and you're talking about non-negotiables. We spoke about it and
[11:28.240 -> 11:32.880] we spoke before. My thing was you have to be able to move on them. It's not possible
[11:32.880 -> 11:40.360] in the workplace to have these red lines everywhere. I'm not asking for that. If you understand
[11:40.360 -> 11:45.240] quickly that there are some things that are not so important in the bigger picture
[11:45.240 -> 11:50.100] for this club and they want results. You maybe have to take your eye away from this perfect
[11:50.100 -> 11:55.200] image you had of, I'm going in here, I'm going to change our philosophy, I'm going to change
[11:55.200 -> 11:59.440] the culture, I'm going to change that department because I think that's short. Sometimes I
[11:59.440 -> 12:02.840] think in the big scheme to have that lovely little podcast when you want everything in
[12:02.840 -> 12:09.080] an hour's chat, there's a lot of it there before, which is, you know, and probably experienced, more experienced
[12:09.080 -> 12:12.460] coaches than myself, people probably go, yeah, because of that, you shouldn't have come in
[12:12.460 -> 12:16.220] and focus so much on that. Maybe you could have done that. So I'm taking responsibility
[12:16.220 -> 12:22.380] as well, but I still, in that sort of search to not be, to not completely take responsibility
[12:22.380 -> 12:25.040] or give responsibility away, I kind of think I came away from Chelsea
[12:25.040 -> 12:30.040] I think there were some things I was right in my thoughts and how I wanted it to be and there's some things maybe I
[12:30.040 -> 12:33.240] Should have dealt with it slightly differently to get to my goals
[12:33.480 -> 12:36.720] Which at Chelsea were in year one to do what we did
[12:36.720 -> 12:38.800] I think that was success in the second year
[12:38.800 -> 12:42.240] It didn't happen and things ended and then I start reflecting on a few things
[12:42.240 -> 12:43.800] I thought could I have done a bit better there?
[12:43.800 -> 12:46.560] But I also think that the alignment from the top
[12:46.560 -> 12:49.400] has to be good if you want sustained success.
[12:49.400 -> 12:50.240] If you're talking about performance
[12:50.240 -> 12:51.060] over a period of time.
[12:51.060 -> 12:51.900] Well, that's an interesting thing, Frank,
[12:51.900 -> 12:53.240] because I think what you're touching on
[12:53.240 -> 12:54.840] doesn't get spoken about enough
[12:54.840 -> 12:56.920] that when you see a manager fail,
[12:56.920 -> 13:00.000] that often it'll be a cultural failure
[13:00.000 -> 13:03.240] because they've come in talking one type of culture
[13:03.240 -> 13:04.680] and the reality is it's another.
[13:04.680 -> 13:05.600] So, I mean
[13:05.600 -> 13:10.720] There's some fascinating research on this by a couple of guys from Stanford University that they said
[13:11.240 -> 13:14.780] Traditionally you put a group of people together. You'll get one of five types of culture
[13:15.180 -> 13:21.220] So what Chelsea looks like from the outside looking in is one of those types is an autocratic culture
[13:21.760 -> 13:25.960] Where is it was dominated for a long period by one individual,
[13:25.960 -> 13:27.120] in this case, Abramovich.
[13:27.120 -> 13:30.640] So I don't know if you remember when Carlo Ancelotti
[13:30.640 -> 13:34.320] spoke about thunderbolt defeats that came out of the blue
[13:34.320 -> 13:37.040] would often create a huge amount of uncertainty
[13:37.040 -> 13:39.800] whether the owner was upset.
[13:39.800 -> 13:42.880] You can have a star culture where you go after recruiting,
[13:42.880 -> 13:44.960] like big name players, bringing them in
[13:44.960 -> 13:45.000] and everything's done to service and keep them happy. You can have a star culture where you go after recruiting, like big name players, bringing them in
[13:45.000 -> 13:48.720] and everything's done to service and keep them happy.
[13:48.720 -> 13:52.080] And then you talk about a bureaucratic culture,
[13:52.080 -> 13:53.720] lots of rules and regulations,
[13:53.720 -> 13:55.480] where you have some managers come in,
[13:55.480 -> 13:56.560] laying the law down.
[13:56.560 -> 13:59.840] An engineering culture is where you just prize
[13:59.840 -> 14:01.640] technical ability over anyone else.
[14:01.640 -> 14:03.080] So you might go, he's a bit of a dick,
[14:03.080 -> 14:05.320] but actually he's a good left back or whatever.
[14:05.320 -> 14:07.280] But what you were coming in and talking about
[14:07.280 -> 14:09.640] on our last interview was the fifth type,
[14:09.640 -> 14:11.760] which was a commitment culture,
[14:11.760 -> 14:13.480] which is where alignment happens,
[14:13.480 -> 14:15.600] where everybody's bought into a really clear sense
[14:15.600 -> 14:16.680] of purpose.
[14:16.680 -> 14:18.200] This is what we're here for.
[14:18.200 -> 14:20.200] And a really clear set of behaviors of,
[14:20.200 -> 14:22.440] this is how we're going about doing it.
[14:22.440 -> 14:25.400] So what I was, so when I listened back to the interview,
[14:25.400 -> 14:27.760] I was thinking you were talking a different language
[14:27.760 -> 14:30.040] to maybe what the owner was talking
[14:30.040 -> 14:31.720] or what other people were.
[14:31.720 -> 14:34.600] So I often find it interesting that when,
[14:34.600 -> 14:36.640] like when it doesn't work, it's often a,
[14:36.640 -> 14:37.960] if you view it through a cultural lens,
[14:37.960 -> 14:40.080] it makes sense why it doesn't work.
[14:40.080 -> 14:41.880] You know, like if you bring in,
[14:41.880 -> 14:43.440] like the example we talked about,
[14:43.440 -> 14:46.880] it's to take somewhere like Manchester United in the years since Ferguson have been in.
[14:47.480 -> 14:49.480] They've gone after autocratic managers.
[14:49.480 -> 14:52.200] They've had superstars, players.
[14:52.600 -> 14:55.240] They've had bureaucratic principles of signing.
[14:55.240 -> 15:01.200] So a lot of the time you see them fighting each other rather than focused on delivering on the field.
[15:01.200 -> 15:07.440] It's so interesting because I'm very reflective across the board and Chelsea is a club very close to my heart.
[15:07.440 -> 15:12.080] So I think about the era of Roman Abramovich and since I joined.
[15:12.080 -> 15:16.000] So I'm not talking about my time and you know, Chelsea didn't align with me.
[15:16.000 -> 15:18.160] They should have done, you know, and then it would have been perfect.
[15:18.160 -> 15:21.280] It's not that case because I think when I talk about consistency,
[15:21.280 -> 15:24.560] you probably look at a period of time and go, did Chelsea succeed?
[15:24.560 -> 15:25.280] Yes, they did
[15:25.280 -> 15:31.520] because they've won a lot. But has there been a consistent level probably over the last 10 years
[15:31.520 -> 15:35.120] in terms of what you would expect in delivery? You could probably question it in terms of what
[15:35.120 -> 15:39.440] Manchester City and now Liverpool have both attained. So I think those things are really
[15:39.440 -> 15:46.760] important to look at. And I wouldn't, I'd stress not to, when you talk about Roman Abramovich, I think it became
[15:46.760 -> 15:51.140] slightly different because he's not on the ground running the club. When you have people
[15:51.140 -> 15:55.320] that are overseeing this place, Finch Farm, our training ground, and Goodison Park and
[15:55.320 -> 15:59.240] everything that happens every day, if you have someone driving that and it aligns underneath
[15:59.240 -> 16:02.880] that then that's great. But sometimes I think with Chelsea it moved away from that. The
[16:02.880 -> 16:07.840] owner is the owner and you have complete respect for that. Obviously he did amazing things for Chelsea on a footballing
[16:07.840 -> 16:13.280] level but it's more making sure then you have the idea of what's the connections down the
[16:13.280 -> 16:17.760] line so it's fine. Any person can own a football club and not be around, that's absolutely
[16:17.760 -> 16:21.080] their prerogative. It doesn't mean that they don't care, it can be the opposite. But then
[16:21.080 -> 16:28.920] okay where do they delegate down? Where do they delegate down? And then where do they delegate down to my job, which is coach the team, get results,
[16:28.920 -> 16:33.160] or the worst can happen, or you get success. And I think there are just a lot of layers
[16:33.160 -> 16:36.920] that are behind the scenes there. It's interesting when you talk about the forms of culture,
[16:36.920 -> 16:40.400] because I think it was at the third or fourth one you said there about having, he's a bit
[16:40.400 -> 16:43.880] of a dick, but he's a good player. That's a really interesting one for me, because I
[16:43.880 -> 16:48.400] think as a manager, it's your responsibility definitely to be able to deal a bit of a dick, but he's a good player. That's a really interesting one for me, because I think as a manager, it's your responsibility definitely to be able to deal with
[16:48.400 -> 16:50.520] bit of a dick kind of people, you know?
[16:50.520 -> 16:53.720] And probably when I went in, I probably had an idea,
[16:53.720 -> 16:56.320] okay, some things I didn't like behaviorally,
[16:56.320 -> 16:58.040] I would want to make a point of them and go,
[16:58.040 -> 17:00.320] no, I want to work to get a group that behaves well,
[17:00.320 -> 17:01.760] that goes in that direction.
[17:01.760 -> 17:03.240] And sometimes it's not that simple.
[17:03.240 -> 17:05.120] Sometimes it's not that simple that you can do that.
[17:05.120 -> 17:07.220] And if you wanna change it,
[17:07.220 -> 17:09.140] you better be sure that you can change it in the right way.
[17:09.140 -> 17:10.580] And if you're changing the people,
[17:10.580 -> 17:12.220] you better be sure you can change the people.
[17:12.220 -> 17:13.940] You can't get caught somewhere in the middle
[17:13.940 -> 17:15.700] and then you will live or die by your decisions.
[17:15.700 -> 17:16.740] And so there were certain ones,
[17:16.740 -> 17:17.960] I won't get into the individuals
[17:17.960 -> 17:19.540] and the personal nature of it,
[17:19.540 -> 17:23.220] but I think in my learnings and reflections after Chelsea,
[17:23.220 -> 17:24.300] it was a little bit like,
[17:24.300 -> 17:25.480] it's very easy to sit there and go,
[17:25.480 -> 17:26.680] I've got that one wrong.
[17:26.680 -> 17:28.000] And then another night you can sit there and go,
[17:28.000 -> 17:30.920] yeah, but if I throw myself back into that situation,
[17:30.920 -> 17:32.000] this is what I was thinking.
[17:32.000 -> 17:33.560] And that's great, you just go over it.
[17:33.560 -> 17:36.120] And there's not necessarily a wrong and a right.
[17:36.120 -> 17:37.680] But when I came to Everton
[17:38.920 -> 17:40.860] in completely different circumstances,
[17:40.860 -> 17:42.480] it was good that I'd had that experience
[17:42.480 -> 17:43.600] because I could check myself and go,
[17:43.600 -> 17:48.880] okay, I always think, what's the priorities now? Priorities are a huge thing in this job. As much as you have a long-term
[17:48.880 -> 17:53.840] vision, I need to prioritise the game the next week, the training session the next week,
[17:53.840 -> 17:56.960] what happens, what might happen with my squad, an issue that might come up that I don't know.
[17:56.960 -> 18:00.840] I just have to deal with it. So you can't get too far ahead of yourself. I think I came
[18:00.840 -> 18:06.240] away learning, OK, let's prioritise. when I came into Everton, prioritise was staying in the Premier League and get results.
[18:06.240 -> 18:09.440] So I took no time when I first got here to go,
[18:09.440 -> 18:11.320] let me make sure this culture runs brilliantly
[18:11.320 -> 18:13.240] and we're going to change the face of this club.
[18:13.240 -> 18:15.280] Those steps, hopefully, are to come
[18:15.280 -> 18:16.640] to get to where we want to be.
[18:16.640 -> 18:18.440] So, but it's a really interesting side
[18:18.440 -> 18:19.640] to get that balance right.
[18:19.640 -> 18:21.280] And, you know, off the back of Chelsea,
[18:21.280 -> 18:22.960] I did a lot of thinking about that side of things,
[18:22.960 -> 18:28.360] much more than I did tactics and what my new formation might be when I move forward.
[18:28.360 -> 18:31.860] So when you look back, what would you have done differently?
[18:31.860 -> 18:37.540] With probably the experience of it, I feel like I'm a bit cooler headed now. Probably
[18:37.540 -> 18:41.220] being at Chelsea was such a place that was close to my heart and I was so desperate to
[18:41.220 -> 18:48.960] do well that I probably put pressure on myself. So even in our first year when we came away and I think it's a huge, it felt like a huge success with reflection
[18:48.960 -> 18:53.240] top four in year one. But when I was in it, it was like we must make top four, we cannot
[18:53.240 -> 18:57.760] be not take make top four. I'm used to being that as a player and now it's different. I
[18:57.760 -> 19:02.200] didn't see that and so I probably became a little bit on top of myself and then in the
[19:02.200 -> 19:06.680] second year, I certainly that the one of the biggest regrets I had was the last
[19:06.680 -> 19:13.200] period at Chelsea where we came into a short run of defeats which saw me lose my job in
[19:13.200 -> 19:19.120] the space of a month. From second in the table to ninth in the league and four defeats in
[19:19.120 -> 19:20.600] the league and you're gone.
[19:20.600 -> 19:27.820] In that period I was striving to solve 100 problems. As I came away I went, don't get in that position again Frank, you've got to trust
[19:27.820 -> 19:32.060] in yourself in those moments. And probably I felt what was coming, the
[19:32.060 -> 19:36.220] pressure, the thunderbolt defeat that Carlo mentioned, and two thunderbolt
[19:36.220 -> 19:40.460] defeats is a double thunderbolt, that's not good news Chelsea. And I
[19:40.460 -> 19:43.900] probably started to sort of second-guess that. And I think that's just
[19:43.900 -> 19:45.800] experience a life and of this job and I probably experienced to sort of second-guess that. And I think that's just experience a life and this job.
[19:45.800 -> 19:49.440] And I probably experienced it in a pretty cutthroat manner.
[19:49.440 -> 19:51.680] It felt at the time, but that's what it is.
[19:51.680 -> 19:53.760] I went into Chelsea with an absolute understanding
[19:53.760 -> 19:55.120] of what it was.
[19:55.120 -> 19:56.120] It was a club that I loved.
[19:56.120 -> 19:58.160] And now I just, for the moment,
[19:58.160 -> 20:00.240] tick it off as an amazing experience.
[20:00.240 -> 20:01.960] That's a lot of good stuff.
[20:01.960 -> 20:05.280] And one, hopefully, that serves me well as I go forward.
[20:05.280 -> 20:10.080] But in terms of timing, if you had that time again, knowing what you now know about timing,
[20:10.080 -> 20:14.560] do you think you'd maybe resist taking that job and wait for it?
[20:14.560 -> 20:19.920] No, no, I would never do that. I was quite thoughtful when I took the job. I gave it a lot of time.
[20:19.920 -> 20:26.520] Going from Derby to Chelsea was something I absolutely had to do. I love the fact that
[20:26.520 -> 20:31.000] I've done it. I don't think about it every day now. I'm very… Christian always laughs
[20:31.000 -> 20:35.200] at me. I block things off, I box them off instantly and move on. I'm good at doing
[20:35.200 -> 20:40.480] it. It's a good skill in this job. So I don't think about it every day now. But
[20:40.480 -> 20:45.360] I do know that I was proud to take the job, proud to get us into the Champions
[20:45.360 -> 20:48.560] League, proud to get us through the Champions League group in the next year and I lost the
[20:48.560 -> 20:53.160] job and I watched them go on to win the Champions League which was a real tough one for me because
[20:53.160 -> 20:57.320] I was really happy for individuals and the club and the fans were amazing with me from
[20:57.320 -> 21:02.040] the time I joined until now and hopefully forever. But the professional side of you
[21:02.040 -> 21:07.960] goes... I sat there when we played Seville in one of
[21:07.960 -> 21:11.200] the qualifying group stages games and we beat them 4-0 away, it was beautiful, we played
[21:11.200 -> 21:15.600] really well. I remember saying to a couple of the staff, we can't win the league this
[21:15.600 -> 21:18.920] year, Man City and Liverpool, but we can win this with what we have individually in this
[21:18.920 -> 21:22.880] team if we can get it together. Of course I had a phase where it didn't go right and
[21:22.880 -> 21:27.280] I didn't, but I don't regret anything about taking it, absolutely not.
[21:27.280 -> 21:32.400] Can I just pick apart a few little bits there? The first one is the conversation about culture.
[21:32.400 -> 21:37.440] So obviously you see Thomas Tuchel come in and go and win the Champions League with the
[21:37.440 -> 21:42.440] same players in the same football club, with the same senior people above him. So what
[21:42.440 -> 21:45.840] do you think he did that you didn't do then? Or did he
[21:45.840 -> 21:51.120] fit into that culture in a different way to you maybe? It's an interesting one isn't it?
[21:51.120 -> 21:55.840] It's really interesting and I've got to be careful here because I can't, I don't want
[21:55.840 -> 21:59.120] to sound like I'm being funny about it, I also have just got respect that Thomas Tugelkamp
[21:59.120 -> 22:02.520] did really well and I wasn't on the ground at that point. So that's just what it is.
[22:02.520 -> 22:05.420] I suppose I've become like yourself, I look from the outside
[22:05.420 -> 22:10.000] and have an opinion and I've got a few ins because I speak to people. I know some things
[22:10.000 -> 22:11.000] that felt different.
[22:11.000 -> 22:15.160] I think the reality is we were a good team and I think there were a lot of things we
[22:15.160 -> 22:20.640] were doing well. The way we trained, the condition of the team. At the end, when it wasn't going
[22:20.640 -> 22:24.320] so well for those results, Chelsea is a club that very quickly, and it's part of the cultural
[22:24.320 -> 22:28.040] thing I go back to, very, very quickly goes from really high up
[22:28.040 -> 22:32.040] in terms of feeling around a place to, oh hang on, something's there, the manager could
[22:32.040 -> 22:35.680] be under pressure. It's the nature of the job and that brings a whole new feeling. And
[22:35.680 -> 22:41.080] when you consider that you have 25 outfield players, three or four keepers, you might
[22:41.080 -> 22:44.280] not be playing one of them or an outfield player and those sort of things, that environment
[22:44.280 -> 22:46.320] becomes difficult quickly.
[22:46.320 -> 22:51.120] So I think it was pretty clear to me in the last couple of weeks that we were there and
[22:51.120 -> 22:55.420] I was under pressure and that was the way it was. And this is not to, as I say with
[22:55.420 -> 22:58.720] Thomas Tuchel, I've got to be very careful, this is not to talk down anything he did but
[22:58.720 -> 23:03.760] coming in can be a breath of fresh air, a change, a fresh slate. For those 14 that don't
[23:03.760 -> 23:08.720] play every week, now they have an opportunity. It looked to me like he managed it incredibly well. Changed
[23:08.720 -> 23:11.880] the system. I won't get into the tactical side of it. I played a back three quite a
[23:11.880 -> 23:15.640] lot. Not always he went straight to it. I got it. I think that was just good coaching,
[23:15.640 -> 23:19.600] good idea. He came in and made the change. And you just have to give him credit for that.
[23:19.600 -> 23:26.000] But I think probably the coming in and the way he brought a freshness to it, he should just take credit for.
[23:26.000 -> 23:27.840] And I've got no problem with that.
[23:27.840 -> 23:30.040] You know, when I say professionally, it was hard.
[23:30.040 -> 23:31.880] That's not like that shouldn't sound bitter.
[23:31.880 -> 23:33.320] It's just I'm driven.
[23:33.320 -> 23:33.840] I'm just driven.
[23:33.840 -> 23:34.480] Yeah, of course.
[23:34.480 -> 23:36.360] And I want to do well.
[23:36.360 -> 23:45.840] And then time absolutely sorts that one out in time, because the first few weeks when you're walking around having lost your job or the first couple of weeks after Champions League
[23:45.840 -> 23:49.440] and people are going, well done or they're not behind my back, whatever, they could be saying anything.
[23:49.440 -> 23:53.480] You kind of think about it all the time and then another month's pass, now I'm at Everton.
[23:53.480 -> 23:57.480] I don't go down and go, oh bloody, I wish I'd done that when I was at Chelsea and it wouldn't have turned out that way.
[23:57.480 -> 24:01.640] I just sit there and go, it's an experience and I look at Chelsea and I go, okay, the next year, where are they at?
[24:01.640 -> 24:08.800] Okay, I respect the club, I'm doing my thing, it's completely different. There's a real value though in in realising that things change and how
[24:08.800 -> 24:14.000] quickly they change I think in football particularly for a manager. Were you taken by surprise because
[24:14.000 -> 24:17.760] I remember you know I was covering the games you'd got to the final of the FA Cup then you'd
[24:17.760 -> 24:23.280] had that brilliant run through the group stage at the Champions League and it felt like it
[24:23.280 -> 24:28.160] unravelled so quickly. Did it take you by surprise how quickly it went from up there to down there?
[24:28.160 -> 24:28.660] No.
[24:28.660 -> 24:29.160] Really?
[24:29.160 -> 24:29.660] No.
[24:29.660 -> 24:35.200] Obviously the ownership of Chelsea's changed but I knew when I took the job I kind of knew the premise that it was on.
[24:35.200 -> 24:41.000] I think I said to you about timing, the stars aligned or something aligned for me to get that job and I was very
[24:41.000 -> 24:48.820] understanding of that but at the same time I knew what that meant and generally managers of Derby for one year don't get the Chelsea
[24:48.820 -> 24:53.680] job and I felt probably felt like when things might get difficult very quickly
[24:53.680 -> 24:57.540] they could change. I've probably been a player in that situation too to be fair a few
[24:57.540 -> 25:02.260] times but I didn't see any reason why it'd be different in fact I felt I was a
[25:02.260 -> 25:07.720] good fit for Chelsea at the time in terms of the position we're in with the band. I worked hard in
[25:07.720 -> 25:11.640] that first year, we had a relative success, never gonna get sort of sectioned
[25:11.640 -> 25:15.360] off as proper success for Chelsea because they were used to it so much and then when
[25:15.360 -> 25:18.960] we when we made a lot of signings in the summer I knew the expectations would
[25:18.960 -> 25:22.680] completely change. I think I said that in the first podcast and they did and I was
[25:22.680 -> 25:30.080] under no illusions that it could change and again maybe some of that was part of me being so intense about that
[25:30.080 -> 25:35.040] club because it was my club and I think maybe sometimes a really great manager
[25:35.040 -> 25:39.800] said to me after I'd lost my job about a month or so later he said Frank he said
[25:39.800 -> 25:43.880] that's you asked British managers he said we need to change our mindset he
[25:43.880 -> 25:46.480] said we need to start thinking like these foreign managers.
[25:46.480 -> 25:49.680] He said it in that way, that's probably a generalization obviously.
[25:49.680 -> 25:53.400] But he said, they move every two or three years, they work hard in a period of time
[25:53.400 -> 25:56.000] and they're intense, and they move on.
[25:56.000 -> 25:57.440] He said, and then the next one comes along and
[25:57.440 -> 26:00.200] it doesn't make them any worse a person or worse a coach.
[26:00.200 -> 26:03.800] It's just so, he was probably was listening to me kind of talk about it with
[26:03.800 -> 26:06.040] such passion. And he was probably saying, listen, what it with such passion. He was probably saying
[26:06.040 -> 26:10.240] listen, what's the next one? Go in a bit more clinical. What do you need to do? What do
[26:10.240 -> 26:11.240] you need to do?
[26:11.240 -> 26:14.920] If it was the case that Thomas Tukker went, I need to lift this group and he got some
[26:14.920 -> 26:18.960] success and then he had this obviously tactical now to take them to a Champions League final,
[26:18.960 -> 26:23.320] that's what he needed to do. When I came to Everton, I needed to lift this group and
[26:23.320 -> 26:26.160] when we were in a bit of a rut, I needed to change the way we were playing
[26:26.160 -> 26:28.200] because it wasn't going to get us over the line.
[26:28.200 -> 26:29.800] And those are just parts of management.
[26:29.800 -> 26:32.400] And I think it was when the manager said it to me,
[26:32.400 -> 26:34.260] we've experienced, I was a bit like, I like that.
[26:34.260 -> 26:35.100] I like that.
[26:35.100 -> 26:36.960] Probably with Chelsea, I took it so much on
[26:36.960 -> 26:39.000] and I had this feeling that with a couple of results,
[26:39.000 -> 26:40.080] I will probably be moving on.
[26:40.080 -> 26:40.920] It was true.
[26:40.920 -> 26:41.740] I was half right.
[26:41.740 -> 26:43.900] And I knew that for whatever reason,
[26:43.900 -> 26:47.880] but it was just part of my story there, I suppose.
[26:48.080 -> 26:48.720] Well, that fits.
[26:48.720 -> 26:54.200] I mean, one of Alex Ferguson's great premises was that the life cycle of any team is only ever four years.
[26:54.200 -> 27:02.120] So he always attributed some of his success to the fact that the success he'd had afforded him the ability to plan a little bit longer than four years.
[27:02.120 -> 27:06.520] So you can get rid of somebody at a certain certain stage knowing that you'll probably still be there
[27:06.520 -> 27:08.320] in four years time
[27:08.320 -> 27:15.480] So, how do you get buy-in from above that gets people to sort of see it as a four-year project?
[27:15.720 -> 27:20.540] rather than just that boom and bust cycle of one season wonders
[27:20.540 -> 27:26.520] I think you asked me something similar and I couldn't quite answer it last time I'm probably better verse to answer it now
[27:27.480 -> 27:31.740] Communication is key and at the end of end of my time at Chelsea
[27:31.740 -> 27:37.180] I lost communication with important people above me that I should have tried to keep more if one of my reflections on it
[27:37.460 -> 27:41.240] Because I think then that that void is it is an issue that just becomes you know
[27:41.240 -> 27:48.160] The void of like when you don't call your mate for a while and you go can't call them now and that's interesting because your big thing from that first podcast was yeah communication
[27:48.160 -> 27:53.080] Yeah, I've below you said you we actually spoke about that phrase losing the dressing room didn't you said?
[27:53.080 -> 27:57.340] Oh communicate in that situation. You need to communicate more than ever and it sounds like
[27:57.960 -> 27:59.240] You maybe didn't do that
[27:59.240 -> 27:59.460] No
[27:59.460 -> 28:00.760] and when I listen back this morning
[28:00.760 -> 28:07.320] I was interested in that and and it certainly wasn't just my fault by the way because I think that should be a two-way responsibility because you need
[28:07.320 -> 28:12.500] to feel support. Like you're saying about how do you get a long-term vision, well you
[28:12.500 -> 28:16.020] better be supported back when it is a little bit tough because that's the reality of football
[28:16.020 -> 28:20.520] unless you're like Liverpool and City winning every game. But let's not forget when those
[28:20.520 -> 28:24.440] early stages of Liverpool coming here, some tough moments, Jürgen Klopp's first year
[28:24.440 -> 28:25.960] before that or Pep Guardiola,
[28:25.960 -> 28:27.120] you know, nothing's perfect.
[28:27.120 -> 28:33.120] They work through these and they have trust and sometimes the trust comes from their previous work and fair play to them because they
[28:33.120 -> 28:36.440] can both go, I've done this and done this. I suppose at Chelsea
[28:36.440 -> 28:39.360] I didn't have a body of work to go, I've done this,
[28:39.360 -> 28:41.640] so I suppose that maybe didn't work for me in that sense.
[28:41.640 -> 28:48.200] But I'd counter that a little bit that I think even when you look at someone like Klopp or even like Guardiola,
[28:48.200 -> 28:52.400] like in their early stages, I think they were still backed, weren't they?
[28:52.400 -> 28:57.400] So you look at someone like Klopp and how he was able to get rid of certain players,
[28:57.400 -> 28:59.800] even though it hamstrung him in the short term,
[28:59.800 -> 29:04.000] if the stories are to be believed that they weren't buying into the way he wanted things done,
[29:04.000 -> 29:07.600] or Guardiola getting rid of players at Barcelona quite early.
[29:07.600 -> 29:10.400] I agree, that comes back to my first part about timing.
[29:10.400 -> 29:10.900] Yeah.
[29:10.900 -> 29:14.900] Because I think, and you know, they're obviously great managers, I'm not going to say they've got their luck in timing.
[29:14.900 -> 29:19.600] But I think if you want to make changes, for instance your example there about players leaving,
[29:19.600 -> 29:23.200] you have to be able to, at the time you want, be able to move players out and people out
[29:23.200 -> 29:26.420] at the right time as much as important it is to move people in because if
[29:26.420 -> 29:29.640] they're not aligned and as I said culture is a funny thing but you must
[29:29.640 -> 29:32.900] have non-negotiables you must have an idea and a feeling of the type of
[29:32.900 -> 29:35.840] person you want in the building the type of play you want in the building and if
[29:35.840 -> 29:38.480] you feel that's wrong and you are being backed with it you must be able to get
[29:38.480 -> 29:43.560] them out or bring ones in that are right and that that has to be aligned so the
[29:43.560 -> 29:50.640] communication thing all the time to sell a vision in high-level Premier League football over four years is not an
[29:50.640 -> 29:55.600] easy one because I think it's so intense. You have to try and do your best with it.
[29:55.600 -> 30:00.520] Here at Everton at the moment we're in a situation that's different for me and every managerial
[30:00.520 -> 30:04.880] job is different. I came here and it was very clear that straight away we need to fight
[30:04.880 -> 30:08.200] on a lot of fronts to make this club where we want it to be. It wasn't just me
[30:08.200 -> 30:11.040] saying it coming in, a lot of people were saying it. People that care about the club
[30:11.040 -> 30:15.400] deeply and it's like, OK, which bit do we go for? So there is an idea of a vision here
[30:15.400 -> 30:18.380] and I really hope that we can stick to it through the tough times because they will
[30:18.380 -> 30:23.600] be here for us. We saw that last year. We were in a whisker of going down into the Championship
[30:23.600 -> 30:28.900] and so we have to just respect that for what it is and go okay we better make some changes and it's not just
[30:28.900 -> 30:33.840] about what play we bring in this window it's also about every little thing that we do to
[30:33.840 -> 30:37.000] get that long term thing in that plan to bring it into practice.
[30:37.000 -> 30:42.360] So can I ask you a question about it's an idea a mate of mine did from a different sport
[30:42.360 -> 30:45.720] was that when he was offered the job as a head coach,
[30:45.720 -> 30:47.920] one of the first things he did before he accepted it
[30:47.920 -> 30:49.880] was he got the board to,
[30:49.880 -> 30:52.620] so he did what we call pre-mortems.
[30:52.620 -> 30:53.460] He said, what are you going to do
[30:53.460 -> 30:54.920] if I lose 10 games on the bounce?
[30:54.920 -> 30:57.880] What am I going to do when the players start
[30:57.880 -> 30:59.060] going to the press about me?
[30:59.060 -> 31:01.920] What are you going to do when the fans turn on me?
[31:01.920 -> 31:04.000] And he got them to almost identify
[31:04.000 -> 31:05.120] because he had the idea that you're
[31:05.120 -> 31:10.320] never more successful than before you take before you play first game. And the board sat there and
[31:10.320 -> 31:14.640] we're saying, Oh, we'll be patient. We'll back here. Well, as long as communication's good.
[31:14.640 -> 31:19.360] So they almost gave him a blueprint of how they were going to deal with it. So he went in
[31:19.360 -> 31:27.040] not promising success, but he was almost saying I guarantee there'll be failures along the
[31:24.320 -> 31:29.360] way and got them to do that so that when
[31:27.040 -> 31:31.440] they inevitably came he almost had that
[31:29.360 -> 31:32.880] contract with them to say you promised
[31:31.440 -> 31:36.160] you were going to be patient we knew
[31:32.880 -> 31:38.000] this had happened. Is that ever possible
[31:36.160 -> 31:39.880] when you go for like a job like you've
[31:38.000 -> 31:41.680] got at Everton that you can have that
[31:39.880 -> 31:44.120] conversation with the decision makers
[31:41.680 -> 31:45.640] before you ever take it because I get
[31:44.120 -> 31:46.680] that you're trying to sell yourself to the job, but
[31:47.140 -> 31:51.300] There's also got to be an element of realism to it. Yeah, I'm not sure
[31:51.300 -> 31:55.200] I think I think the the idea of it is
[31:55.840 -> 31:56.800] is
[31:56.800 -> 32:02.140] A good one and make and maybe a softer version of what you just said explained there of your friend's story
[32:02.440 -> 32:06.360] It's possible and I do think probably what do think probably in what way you're coming
[32:06.360 -> 32:08.560] into the job, I'm guessing again,
[32:08.560 -> 32:10.640] but a manager that comes in off the back of trophies
[32:10.640 -> 32:11.640] and can kind of go,
[32:11.640 -> 32:12.480] well, hang on, what are you going to do
[32:12.480 -> 32:13.800] if it doesn't work perfectly?
[32:13.800 -> 32:15.360] And they might go, yeah, well, we trust you
[32:15.360 -> 32:16.640] and we're with you.
[32:16.640 -> 32:19.880] I think some jobs, you go into and you don't feel
[32:19.880 -> 32:21.760] that strength or that power to be able to sit there
[32:21.760 -> 32:23.680] and go, hang on, I'm going to interview you a little bit.
[32:23.680 -> 32:25.020] It's a flip.
[32:25.020 -> 32:27.940] So what I will say is that you do want a good feeling
[32:27.940 -> 32:31.780] in the room, myself from the other side.
[32:31.780 -> 32:34.020] So what I did feel when I came into this job
[32:34.020 -> 32:36.820] at Everson particularly, and I felt actually at Derby
[32:36.820 -> 32:39.980] when I met their owner Mel Morris when I first went there,
[32:39.980 -> 32:41.600] was a good feeling.
[32:41.600 -> 32:44.300] And it means nothing, I didn't ask for that contract.
[32:44.300 -> 32:47.680] And maybe I'll try that one down the line at some stage,
[32:47.680 -> 32:50.020] but I did get a feeling of support
[32:50.020 -> 32:52.120] from people that were in the room in my interview.
[32:52.120 -> 32:52.960] In what way?
[32:52.960 -> 32:55.360] What does that look like in tangible terms?
[32:55.360 -> 32:56.620] Tangible is not an easy one,
[32:56.620 -> 32:58.120] but I just felt a feeling of,
[33:00.120 -> 33:01.280] what's the word when I say support?
[33:01.280 -> 33:02.600] How do I elaborate on that?
[33:02.600 -> 33:04.920] It, there wasn't so much tangible.
[33:04.920 -> 33:05.060] It was just, there were important people in the room. I don't want to start naming people upstairs at this club, When I say support, how do I elaborate on that? There wasn't so much tangible, it was
[33:05.060 -> 33:08.060] just that there were important people in the room, I don't want to start naming people
[33:08.060 -> 33:15.460] upstairs at this club, but that I could feel were really ready to work with me and see
[33:15.460 -> 33:20.420] what direction I could take the club in and were quite excited about that. And we were
[33:20.420 -> 33:26.200] offering that support, giving off the vibe of that support. And I love that because in honesty, when I came to Everton,
[33:27.200 -> 33:30.000] it felt like a long way from London to Liverpool.
[33:30.000 -> 33:35.100] I'm a Chelsea boy has seen London and it's a club where I looked at had difficulties.
[33:35.100 -> 33:38.500] The week before I'm going, I'm seeing a bit of unrest and I'm seeing things and, you know,
[33:39.200 -> 33:41.900] 13, 14 without a win or whatever it was.
[33:41.900 -> 33:43.500] So there's a lot of things I was putting together.
[33:44.100 -> 33:48.560] But firstly, I saw this great club, Everton, with an amazing history and what a challenge that is.
[33:48.560 -> 33:52.080] And then when I met the people that sort of made the decisions at the club,
[33:52.640 -> 33:56.080] I actually was really pleased with how they were kind of going,
[33:56.080 -> 33:59.680] this is the direction we want to go in, we know where we're at, there's a lot we want to do
[33:59.680 -> 34:04.080] in a positive way. And there were actually a lot of people that really cared about the football club,
[34:04.080 -> 34:09.280] which I really liked. And I was like, okay, that's for me. And since I've been here
[34:09.280 -> 34:14.120] I've found that to be ongoing in a short period of time. And actually, you know what, I think
[34:14.120 -> 34:17.520] you really do need that if you want to be successful. When you can't rely on it forever,
[34:17.520 -> 34:21.000] results will always be what you'll be judged by and actually how you work every day. But
[34:21.000 -> 34:28.580] at the moment I think I'm starting to see more that I want to do, I'm starting to feel that support coming to action. We may not see it on the pitch in the next three
[34:28.580 -> 34:33.240] months or six months but I do hope that we do see it going forward. I'm certainly all
[34:33.240 -> 34:37.560] in for that because that's how I am. There are also a lot of people at this club that
[34:37.560 -> 34:41.300] are all in and are probably aware that there are some things that have happened here before
[34:41.300 -> 34:42.600] that we need to get a lot better at.
[34:42.600 -> 34:47.840] Can we explore the power of this time away from the game that put you into a place of clarity
[34:47.840 -> 34:52.800] for taking the Everton job? I suppose first thing, you know, when you, I don't know how it works when
[34:52.800 -> 34:57.440] you lose your job as a manager, but when you get the news that you're losing your job, how quickly
[34:57.440 -> 35:03.040] do you turn that from a negative into a positive for you personally? How hard is that period?
[35:03.040 -> 35:10.920] It's a tough period, it's a difficult period. a lot of people who do my job are very very driven very passionate you
[35:10.920 -> 35:14.320] have a lot of pride in what you do and those things will take it here so you do
[35:14.320 -> 35:16.920] go through that kind did you have the tools to deal with it because I when was
[35:16.920 -> 35:20.760] the last failure in your life like on a professional level on a professional
[35:20.760 -> 35:27.040] level nothing no no nothing like that and it, nothing like that. And it's big news, it's Chelsea. I live at the time,
[35:28.960 -> 35:31.360] barely a mile from Stamford Bridge
[35:31.360 -> 35:33.600] and it was COVID times, I couldn't travel anywhere.
[35:33.600 -> 35:34.440] There's no get out.
[35:34.440 -> 35:36.120] I love walking the dog, so I walked the dog
[35:36.120 -> 35:37.600] and you just feel Chelsea everywhere
[35:37.600 -> 35:38.960] and you've just left, you know.
[35:38.960 -> 35:41.160] The morning I knew I was going in to leave Chelsea,
[35:41.160 -> 35:43.000] I walked the dog knowing I'd already got the call,
[35:43.000 -> 35:44.320] the message, can you meet us?
[35:44.320 -> 35:46.440] I went for an hour and a Chelsea fan stopped me, went
[35:46.440 -> 35:50.060] you're doing great, come on keep going and all that, I felt like I'd wait till breaking
[35:50.060 -> 35:53.340] news in about an hour and a half and you'll see it differently. So it's like
[35:53.340 -> 35:57.700] it's some parts of it just practically very difficult and there's that sort of
[35:57.700 -> 36:01.580] period of time where it is tough because you know if you live your life by it and
[36:01.580 -> 36:04.980] you're passionate about it and it gets taken away from you, you know you have
[36:04.980 -> 36:07.560] to go through a bit of a process. I did I did
[36:07.560 -> 36:09.720] I don't know how long it was I was out of a job for what a
[36:09.920 -> 36:14.600] Year and you do fluctuate a lot from some moments where you get not hang you get a bit angry
[36:14.600 -> 36:16.600] You kind of go what could I have done?
[36:16.920 -> 36:19.480] Why did that person do that kind of thing and that stuff?
[36:19.760 -> 36:23.420] You better go over that quite quickly because that's a bit of a nasty sort of cycle
[36:23.420 -> 36:26.760] I think and then you get moments where you quite enjoy it
[36:26.760 -> 36:28.560] and you go, I'm out of a job, this is great actually,
[36:28.560 -> 36:31.000] settle down a little bit and I can go on holiday,
[36:31.000 -> 36:32.280] I don't have to go to work every day.
[36:32.280 -> 36:35.240] And fortunately enough, I can take stock for a bit.
[36:35.240 -> 36:37.580] And then you just have sort of phases of,
[36:37.580 -> 36:39.440] I need to get back in, I need to get back in.
[36:39.440 -> 36:41.120] Okay, I need to take the right one.
[36:41.120 -> 36:42.320] I'm enjoying time on my own.
[36:42.320 -> 36:44.120] I'm actually enjoying thinking about it.
[36:44.120 -> 36:49.100] And so it was a period of that. and I probably went through that cycle nicely. So I was really,
[36:49.100 -> 36:51.960] really ready to work by the time the Everton job came up.
[36:51.960 -> 36:55.660] Because we we exchanged messages about one of the episodes on high performance with Eddie
[36:55.660 -> 37:00.060] Jones. And I thought it was really interesting that you said you loved it when you were in
[37:00.060 -> 37:03.940] work, because you could totally relate to what he was saying. But now he said, now I'm
[37:03.940 -> 37:06.440] out of work. I see it in a slightly different way
[37:06.880 -> 37:09.440] So I'm really interested for people listening to this who maybe are
[37:09.800 -> 37:14.760] Not doing the thing they always want to do or they're in a lull or having some a break or whatever and it's not necessarily
[37:14.760 -> 37:21.320] Their decision to do it the value of actually stepping back the value of not being intense all the time
[37:21.320 -> 37:23.320] What what were the big?
[37:23.320 -> 37:25.040] That change your mindset?
[37:25.040 -> 37:31.400] It changed my mindset a little bit in terms of balance, life balance. And I promised myself
[37:31.400 -> 37:37.000] and I promised my family that when I go back in, I will not have that intensity that I
[37:37.000 -> 37:40.800] had in the last month at Chelsea. Because that wasn't that healthy, if I'm honest, for
[37:40.800 -> 37:46.000] anybody. And I spent a lot of hours trying to solve problems because that's how I am,
[37:46.000 -> 37:46.840] but they were slightly misplaced.
[37:46.840 -> 37:48.320] It also doesn't make you better at your job
[37:48.320 -> 37:49.160] by being intense.
[37:49.160 -> 37:50.160] No, it doesn't.
[37:50.160 -> 37:51.160] You know, it's an element of it.
[37:51.160 -> 37:52.320] I like intensity.
[37:52.320 -> 37:54.920] I kind of feel that it's just how I naturally am,
[37:54.920 -> 37:56.440] but you go beyond the point where it's,
[37:56.440 -> 37:57.960] I think it's a negative on yourself.
[37:57.960 -> 37:58.960] In what way do you mean, Frank?
[37:58.960 -> 38:01.800] Well, so what were you finally seeing you do differently
[38:01.800 -> 38:03.400] when, in that last month?
[38:03.400 -> 38:05.160] Spending more hours working.
[38:05.160 -> 38:06.680] And I certainly got to a point
[38:06.680 -> 38:08.360] where I was probably trying to solve too much.
[38:08.360 -> 38:10.360] And then you probably, you know,
[38:10.360 -> 38:12.040] you're draining yourself of energy.
[38:12.040 -> 38:13.960] And as much as it's important to get to tomorrow's session,
[38:13.960 -> 38:15.840] it's also important to bounce into work the next day
[38:15.840 -> 38:17.080] and be the one that's the happy one.
[38:17.080 -> 38:19.520] And I had a little period of that at the end of Chelsea.
[38:19.520 -> 38:20.360] And so I was-
[38:20.360 -> 38:22.800] Were you still enjoying it at the end?
[38:22.800 -> 38:25.280] No, I wasn't enjoying it in the last few weeks
[38:25.280 -> 38:27.220] and that happened really quickly.
[38:27.220 -> 38:30.300] So I really enjoyed my time working as a whole
[38:30.300 -> 38:32.900] with reflection, but I have to wear that one
[38:32.900 -> 38:34.060] and take responsibility for that.
[38:34.060 -> 38:36.500] There's no one else but me that was in that position.
[38:36.500 -> 38:38.740] And I think if you were to look back and go
[38:38.740 -> 38:40.560] like your question about should you have taken the job,
[38:40.560 -> 38:42.500] people go, you weren't experienced enough.
[38:42.500 -> 38:43.660] I don't quite see that.
[38:43.660 -> 38:44.500] I don't see that.
[38:44.500 -> 38:48.520] I felt that I was absolutely ready to take that job and I think I proved it in year
[38:48.520 -> 38:51.760] one. If I look back and go as I experienced, I go when it got really tough and you were
[38:51.760 -> 38:54.920] right under pressure, I'm not sure I would have changed the results by the way, I still
[38:54.920 -> 38:59.040] might be sitting here in the same situation, but personally I went solving every problem
[38:59.040 -> 39:02.160] and I think that's one thing that I would take back and go, well, Frank, you're not
[39:02.160 -> 39:09.240] going to solve our high press, mid press, low press, gold kick in one day. You're not going to do it. So what do you
[39:09.240 -> 39:13.060] need to solve right now? Okay. We need to get the mood up. We need to lift it. We need
[39:13.060 -> 39:17.280] to do so, you know, lots of solutions. The original question was almost like in that
[39:17.280 -> 39:22.160] year out, I kind of got, okay, balance for me also balanced my family, cause that's not
[39:22.160 -> 39:29.200] nice for them. And as you, as I get a a bit older I start to think a lot more about that. I start to think you feel not so much like you
[39:29.200 -> 39:34.000] will live forever. And as much as I am still very driven at work, I start feeling, okay,
[39:34.000 -> 39:39.160] a month after I left Chelsea I had a son. And I actually go, wow, I'm going to actually
[39:39.160 -> 39:43.280] be at home with this son. And every other child I've had, I've been working. I drove
[39:43.280 -> 39:45.040] back from Derby to see
[39:47.620 -> 39:47.740] Patricia to be born to go back and we play Brentford the next day
[39:48.380 -> 39:53.480] You know And so I was sort of blessed in that in that way and then you just start sort of seeing those things and that can
[39:53.480 -> 39:56.820] Change your perspective. It's just you're evolving again. Aren't you I think in a year off?
[39:57.360 -> 40:02.580] Even though it wasn't my choice when I look back on the big scheme of things. I might go actually yeah, it was important
[40:02.580 -> 40:04.580] I did that if you had our chats with Johnny Wilkinson
[40:04.620 -> 40:04.760] Big scheme of things I might go actually. Yeah, it was important. I did that if you had our chats with Johnny Wilkinson
[40:12.360 -> 40:12.840] Yeah, because he would just say like explore like explore that period of flying and doing well at Chelsea explore that period where?
[40:18.360 -> 40:25.360] You know instead of seeing as a negative see it as a period of exploration when you were struggling to get your message across all The you know had issues with people below or above you but equally explore being at home with your newborn son like in a weird way
[40:25.360 -> 40:28.920] How can it ever be a bad thing to have been given that period of your boy?
[40:28.920 -> 40:30.700] Which you will never be able to do again
[40:30.700 -> 40:35.360] you can't yeah work for 10 years and then go on now I'm gonna spend some time with you and get to know you because
[40:35.760 -> 40:42.860] that's why I love this into other people speak and love listening to your podcast because it takes all types and the Johnny Wilkinson
[40:43.680 -> 40:46.000] Method or approach is not mine by nature
[40:46.000 -> 40:48.760] it's not mine I don't want to explore I
[40:48.760 -> 40:50.000] want to get back into work and realize
[40:50.000 -> 40:51.840] what I've done better you know that's my
[40:51.840 -> 40:55.200] first thing and really now when I had
[40:55.200 -> 40:56.760] that year off and I kind of think that I
[40:56.760 -> 40:59.240] start to understand and that's why I
[40:59.240 -> 41:00.480] like to listen to those things when
[41:00.480 -> 41:01.960] Johnny Wilkinson speaks if I'm honest
[41:01.960 -> 41:03.200] when I listen to that podcast a few
[41:03.200 -> 41:06.140] things are quite extreme for me and I'm not being I'm going fair
[41:06.140 -> 41:09.740] play that's fantastic from his point of view but then you take bits out and you
[41:09.740 -> 41:12.960] go yeah yeah make me know that maybe there's a scale with Johnny's there and
[41:12.960 -> 41:16.340] I'm there somewhere maybe I should meet him somewhere in the middle and explore
[41:16.340 -> 41:20.420] I'm not good at sitting and taking in time and just I'm always sometimes I'm
[41:20.420 -> 41:24.700] running for the next thing and sometimes that explore thing means actually enjoy
[41:24.700 -> 41:26.400] that period enjoy it period, enjoy it,
[41:26.400 -> 41:29.000] and just maybe learn a little bit and take a back seat.
[41:29.000 -> 41:30.760] I mean, I'm really taken with this idea
[41:30.760 -> 41:32.840] that you've seen your son being born
[41:32.840 -> 41:35.440] and it's the first time you've had chances to be around
[41:35.440 -> 41:38.640] and do what a lot of parents would see as natural
[41:38.640 -> 41:41.700] of having that time to bond and support your wife.
[41:42.680 -> 41:47.400] Did it make you look back on the birth of your other children and maybe the quality of life
[41:47.400 -> 41:50.400] that you'd had that no, you were successful professionally
[41:50.400 -> 41:52.400] and maybe think that it had taken something
[41:52.400 -> 41:53.440] from you personally?
[41:54.880 -> 41:58.560] Not really, because I just understand it for what it is.
[41:58.560 -> 42:01.360] And so I've got two older daughters now that are 16 and,
[42:02.440 -> 42:08.720] 15 and 16, and I loved my football career and I was all in on it. So I can't
[42:08.720 -> 42:13.400] imagine anything in my sort of latter 20s in terms of my professional to personal balance
[42:13.400 -> 42:18.220] being any different. It was just what it was. So I don't think, I feel like I lost out,
[42:18.220 -> 42:22.560] my life was that and there were a lot of other things around that that just became circumstance
[42:22.560 -> 42:25.060] of my life. When I had Patricia and I'm working
[42:25.060 -> 42:30.300] with Darby and if I'm honest I've never been as settled in my life, personal life, as I
[42:30.300 -> 42:34.820] am with Christine. I'm so happy with this moment. So we did everything we could to make
[42:34.820 -> 42:38.380] that as perfect as it could be. So it was fine. I joke about the Brentford thing but
[42:38.380 -> 42:41.980] it wasn't a problem. I was delighted to get back. I went out and beat Brentford 3-1. I
[42:41.980 -> 42:48.200] came back to see her for a couple of days, you know Life is good enough. I can't complain on those things and I've found you know, I adore
[42:48.760 -> 42:52.340] All my children, but Patricia, you know, we've had she's nearly four now
[42:52.600 -> 42:58.320] but with Freddy it was just another version of doing it and and as I say sometimes I have to check myself because I am
[42:58.640 -> 43:00.160] I'm in the room, but I'm not there
[43:00.160 -> 43:08.320] I do do that because of how I am I think I'm a thinker and overthinkinker and thinking maybe about football you know my next job or something else and
[43:08.320 -> 43:12.040] sometimes someone like listen to Johnny Wilkinson say things like that make me
[43:12.040 -> 43:15.680] absolutely check myself and my wife Christine does it at home she says to me
[43:15.680 -> 43:19.400] sometimes like she like jokingly would literally say to me stop thinking about
[43:19.400 -> 43:22.640] your next job because you know when you're in your next job you began wouldn't
[43:22.640 -> 43:25.420] mind going back to that time when I was sitting on the sofa
[43:25.420 -> 43:26.520] and could relax a little bit.
[43:26.520 -> 43:27.860] And she was right.
[43:27.860 -> 43:31.160] And I kind of started to get there and then I got a job.
[43:31.160 -> 43:32.000] That's the weird thing.
[43:32.000 -> 43:33.600] So does that then melt away?
[43:33.600 -> 43:35.580] Because it feels to me like we're having a conversation
[43:35.580 -> 43:37.160] where you have a little bit more freedom.
[43:37.160 -> 43:39.120] It almost feels like that first conversation we had,
[43:39.120 -> 43:43.000] it was like the only way through is intensity.
[43:43.000 -> 43:47.240] Whereas now maybe you've seen that there's other ways to be successful. Yeah
[43:48.360 -> 43:49.720] Does that disappear though?
[43:49.720 -> 43:53.640] Once you get back in or do you have to fight hard to keep all of the things that you learned and not let them
[43:53.640 -> 43:59.100] Slip through you think you have to fight hard definitely because the bubble this bubble here and especially the situation I came into which
[43:59.100 -> 44:01.100] Was a relegation battle
[44:01.120 -> 44:05.200] Prolonged few months. Yeah, it can easily suck you in. How'd you do that then?
[44:05.200 -> 44:10.500] I managed to do it and I'm not saying now I've become this big relaxed manager that comes in and everything's fine
[44:10.500 -> 44:16.700] but what I will say is a lot of people this summer I was away and met a lot of Evertonians, football fans
[44:16.700 -> 44:20.500] and the thing they always say, wow it must have been so much pressure, how tough was that?
[44:20.500 -> 44:26.000] And it was but it's weirdly isn't as pressurised as I felt as the Chelsea manager.
[44:26.000 -> 44:30.160] And that's all my own doing. That was all my own doing of what the Chelsea thing meant
[44:30.160 -> 44:34.040] to me, how much I wanted to prove, probably that I felt a bit vulnerable about, I could
[44:34.040 -> 44:38.480] lose, you know, expectations. Whereas here, I may be just as vulnerable in many other
[44:38.480 -> 44:42.840] ways. We could have got relegated. But in myself, I was a little bit more like, and
[44:42.840 -> 44:47.320] I'm not saying I was cool as a cucumber. I wasn't, at Crystal Palace at halftime and 2-0 down,
[44:47.320 -> 44:49.480] like the writing was on the wall potentially.
[44:49.480 -> 44:51.400] But I didn't feel that same feeling
[44:51.400 -> 44:52.360] and I felt a little bit,
[44:52.360 -> 44:53.940] and it might be 20% from where I was,
[44:53.940 -> 44:55.800] I'm not saying I've changed, I'm fine.
[44:55.800 -> 44:57.200] Been doing another podcast in a year
[44:57.200 -> 44:58.480] and telling you the new me.
[44:58.480 -> 45:01.580] It's not that, but it's just a little bit
[45:01.580 -> 45:05.160] where I've managed to kind of find that bit better balance.
[45:05.160 -> 45:08.000] So even in the tough, tough moments in Everton last year, which were,
[45:08.000 -> 45:11.880] there was much more jeopardy for me here at Everton to be the manager that took this club down
[45:11.880 -> 45:14.240] than it was to not make the top four with Chelsea.
[45:14.240 -> 45:19.080] You know, economically for the club, for me, you know, there was a lot more on it.
[45:19.080 -> 45:21.640] But personally, in my own world, I was a bit more like,
[45:21.640 -> 45:26.880] okay, this is the order I've come in, I'm going to prioritise this, this, this, this is what I can do, this is what I can affect and the biggest
[45:26.880 -> 45:30.240] thing is I better be a positive influence because we're losing more games than I've ever lost at
[45:30.240 -> 45:35.440] Chelsea or Derby even. So I had to get, re-evaluate quickly about how I wanted to approach things.
[45:35.440 -> 45:41.360] You've just touched on an area that I spoke to a few people in football that watched with
[45:41.360 -> 45:46.920] wonder during that period and saying that the only time that they can remember you losing is in
[45:47.520 -> 45:52.560] Semifinals and finals and big games and then they seen you win like lose three games on the bounce
[45:52.800 -> 45:58.040] And what they were intrigued looking from outside in was how are you keeping your energy levels high?
[45:58.040 -> 46:01.540] How are you managing to keep that optimism?
[46:02.160 -> 46:06.560] Despite the fact that it must have been the first time that you've gone through a period like that.
[46:06.560 -> 46:08.560] So, what did you do?
[46:08.560 -> 46:13.880] I worked on it. You're right, it's something I wasn't so used to.
[46:13.880 -> 46:18.640] You need a lot of support and when I say that you need really good staff in the building, my staff are brilliant.
[46:18.640 -> 46:22.640] And some days you can be the low one, you don't want to show it to the players but you can be a bit like,
[46:22.640 -> 46:27.980] you know, we've got a beating yesterday, what's the solution, this game is coming next. We have to have those
[46:27.980 -> 46:31.900] conversations in the office behind me. But you better not show that face when you go
[46:31.900 -> 46:32.900] to the players.
[46:32.900 -> 46:35.500] I don't mind saying it out loud because no one is stupid, everyone understands it. But
[46:35.500 -> 46:39.900] when you are working with the players, for instance, we lost at Burnley which was a terrible
[46:39.900 -> 46:44.260] night for us. Went from 2-1 up to 3-2 down, put us really under pressure. On a Wednesday
[46:44.260 -> 46:48.280] night, raining, it was a tough night. We had Manchester United at 12 o'clock on the Saturday
[46:48.280 -> 46:56.320] morning, 12.30. And those two days, the pressure was on. But I put my game head on and said,
[46:56.320 -> 46:59.480] right, I need to be more than anything. I need to be the positive one and the really
[46:59.480 -> 47:03.760] focused one. So that's why I think football and management is never this written. You
[47:03.760 -> 47:10.060] can't have this philosophy, this project, this is how I deal with a season from A to B to C and then we
[47:10.060 -> 47:13.840] win or whatever. It has to be okay, you're going to have to compromise, you're going
[47:13.840 -> 47:17.760] to have to change, you're going to have to... and that's the magic, can you feel the moment?
[47:17.760 -> 47:22.640] And for me, in that two or three days was a really testing time for me because I actually
[47:22.640 -> 47:28.640] sat here and saw on TV that my job was under threat here, I'd only been here, and that came up on the rolling news.
[47:28.640 -> 47:32.200] I was just about to go and do the media and it came on the news and I was like
[47:32.200 -> 47:36.400] oh great that's the mindset you want to be in when you go and speak to the ones down there.
[47:36.400 -> 47:39.800] But when I look back and as I say where I'm better now I think and I've probably
[47:39.800 -> 47:43.400] just got a bit better at dealing with it, it didn't throw me off too much.
[47:43.400 -> 47:45.840] I'm very determined to get back on track.
[47:45.840 -> 47:48.040] What would that have done to the old Frank Lampard from a couple of years before?
[47:48.040 -> 47:53.800] I think probably I would have taken it on board in a negative way and I would have gone
[47:53.800 -> 47:58.160] into my press conference a bit more, you know, because the press, they're ready for those
[47:58.160 -> 48:02.720] moments, they want to test you. Probably would have had a couple more answers for them. Maybe
[48:02.720 -> 48:08.120] my team talk might have felt different, my clarity of thought might have felt a little bit different. The most important thing in
[48:08.120 -> 48:12.760] that part is that when you're losing games, if you're not the positive one, and positivity
[48:12.760 -> 48:17.320] is not always for everyone, you can't come in with a poor performance and be Mr Happy,
[48:17.320 -> 48:20.560] but at the same time you better have a solution or an answer for it. Because if you're not
[48:20.560 -> 48:23.640] positive and you're giving good vibes and if you haven't got a solution or an answer
[48:23.640 -> 48:25.280] then I'm not sure what your job is at that point.
[48:25.280 -> 48:27.600] You've got to be doing something for it.
[48:27.600 -> 48:28.880] And how did you know what to say?
[48:28.880 -> 48:31.200] Because this was a very new situation for you.
[48:31.200 -> 48:33.240] You'd never been in a relegation scrap really as a player.
[48:33.240 -> 48:36.720] You hadn't been there at Derby or at Chelsea.
[48:36.720 -> 48:39.920] So how did you decide on the messaging for the players?
[48:39.920 -> 48:41.400] I went game by game,
[48:41.400 -> 48:43.840] and that was the beautiful challenge of it.
[48:43.840 -> 48:45.680] And at some stage stage you're literally
[48:45.680 -> 48:50.960] probably going into a meeting, this is how I was, the day before a game, say it was pre-Manchester
[48:50.960 -> 48:56.800] United or pre-Chelsea, these big games that we have to win. Two hours before the meeting
[48:56.800 -> 48:59.600] or the night before the meeting you might not know whether you're going in with a stick
[48:59.600 -> 49:02.920] to beat them or a carrot to give them. If you're delivering a meeting, particularly
[49:02.920 -> 49:05.160] if it's to stick, we need to be better at this.
[49:05.160 -> 49:06.480] You need to be better at that now.
[49:06.480 -> 49:08.040] And I did that before we played Chelsea.
[49:08.040 -> 49:10.200] It was a time where I felt that it
[49:10.200 -> 49:11.560] needs to be a strong chat.
[49:11.720 -> 49:13.360] In other games, it was more of a,
[49:13.680 -> 49:15.840] come on, we can do this.
[49:15.840 -> 49:16.480] Be confident.
[49:16.560 -> 49:18.080] I know we've got good players in the room.
[49:18.320 -> 49:19.720] Those are just choices as a manager.
[49:30.600 -> 49:36.320] As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns. But a deep voice doesn't sell B2B, and advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
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[49:54.800 -> 49:56.920] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[49:56.920 -> 50:01.360] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[50:01.360 -> 50:05.440] So does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me,
[50:05.440 -> 50:11.080] the man with the deepest voice in the world? Yes, yes it does. Get started today and see
[50:11.080 -> 50:17.880] why LinkedIn is the place to be, to be. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
[50:17.880 -> 50:23.480] Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash results.
[50:23.480 -> 50:26.000] Terms and conditions apply.
[50:26.000 -> 50:28.000] On our
[50:28.000 -> 50:30.000] podcast, we love to highlight businesses that
[50:30.000 -> 50:32.000] are doing things a better way so you can
[50:32.000 -> 50:34.000] live a better life. And that's why, when
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[51:41.000 -> 52:06.320] To get this new customer offer and your new 3-month unlimited wireless plan There was one occasion when I was watching, when the alarm, see Mint Mobile for details.
[52:10.120 -> 52:10.240] There was one occasion when I was watching, when the alarm bells went for me for you,
[52:14.840 -> 52:18.040] was after that Crystal Palace game, where you gave an interview and you said, you know, I've spent a lot of time sort of kidding some of these players that are better
[52:18.040 -> 52:21.120] than they are and now it's time to face reality.
[52:21.920 -> 52:26.120] And I was wondering about that tightro rope that you walk of sometimes having to,
[52:26.480 -> 52:29.600] having to kid them up and convince somebody they're better than they are.
[52:30.200 -> 52:34.160] And again, that, that desire to be really brutally honest and say, you're not good
[52:34.160 -> 52:34.480] enough.
[52:34.920 -> 52:36.960] Can you tell us about how you walk that tight rope?
[52:37.120 -> 52:38.320] There's no written rule.
[52:38.400 -> 52:43.640] And I remember specifically that, um, post match against Palisk and I felt that I'd
[52:43.640 -> 52:46.760] got to a point, um, where I'd come in and I'd tried
[52:46.760 -> 52:50.960] a lot of positive talk. I felt that the players had got kind of stuck in a little bit of a
[52:50.960 -> 52:56.560] rut of a tough time and they needed a little bit of a reaction. I felt like it was something
[52:56.560 -> 52:59.840] I needed to say. I wasn't quite polite, I wasn't delighted with my language after. I'd
[52:59.840 -> 53:03.800] said a Christine sentiment about him. I said, why did you say, I can say bollocks, I said
[53:03.800 -> 53:05.640] they like bollocks. And she was right.
[53:05.640 -> 53:07.160] And it wasn't exactly what I meant
[53:07.160 -> 53:08.680] because I know they're good lads who wanted to do well,
[53:08.680 -> 53:10.300] but I think it was important to,
[53:10.300 -> 53:12.080] I felt it was important to say something punchy
[53:12.080 -> 53:13.520] and I regretted that side of it,
[53:13.520 -> 53:15.640] but I didn't regret the tone generally.
[53:15.640 -> 53:20.240] And I think it's also, I think a lot about, you know,
[53:20.240 -> 53:22.400] when you're a club and when you rely on the fans
[53:22.400 -> 53:25.360] and our fan base are incredible right through this period,
[53:25.360 -> 53:28.520] if they travel down to London and see the performance they've just seen,
[53:28.520 -> 53:30.800] how many times am I going to stand there and go,
[53:30.800 -> 53:33.560] we're all right, it's all positive and it's all good.
[53:33.560 -> 53:34.680] So I'm not just doing it for that,
[53:34.680 -> 53:38.240] but you've got to take all those things into account when you're in this role
[53:38.240 -> 53:40.000] and say, okay, now you know why I'm going to say it,
[53:40.000 -> 53:43.640] because I think the few thousand that are driving back down the motorway for five hours
[53:43.640 -> 53:44.880] are probably thinking it.
[53:44.880 -> 53:49.000] So when you did that, did you go back into the dressing room and say suppose this is what I've said
[53:49.000 -> 53:52.000] No. No. I never mentioned it again.
[53:52.000 -> 53:53.500] Right. And did they?
[53:53.500 -> 53:54.800] No, not to me.
[53:54.800 -> 53:57.500] And then you had that brilliant end to the season where you beat Chelsea
[53:57.500 -> 54:01.000] and then you had the game at home that kept you in the Premier League.
[54:01.000 -> 54:02.200] 2-0 down at half-time.
[54:02.200 -> 54:03.000] Yeah.
[54:03.000 -> 54:05.360] Would you mind sharing with us what that half-time was like,
[54:05.360 -> 54:08.040] how you dealt with it, the conversations that were had?
[54:08.040 -> 54:10.160] Because I think, again, for people watching this
[54:10.160 -> 54:11.160] who are not involved in football,
[54:11.160 -> 54:14.720] but need to have an impact in the workplace,
[54:14.720 -> 54:16.200] these moments can be difficult.
[54:16.200 -> 54:17.480] How did you approach it?
[54:17.480 -> 54:19.720] Yeah, I mean, it was one of those
[54:19.720 -> 54:21.000] where we conceded the second
[54:21.000 -> 54:23.040] and it was just shambles of a goal.
[54:23.040 -> 54:29.560] So I had probably about five minutes of the first half to think about half-time and you do. This is pivotal. This is my job.
[54:29.560 -> 54:36.480] Probably the most important part of your job I would say. So my feeling was it wasn't a
[54:36.480 -> 54:40.520] tactical point. I'd made the tactical change which I was going to stick with. So forget
[54:40.520 -> 54:49.120] the tactics. And I said to the players, forget the tactics. We're 4-3-3 now. Dele, come on, because here's your moment, Dele. Come in. And he did.
[54:49.120 -> 54:51.280] He came in and really produced individually.
[54:51.280 -> 54:54.960] And then I just kind of went on the fact that, lads, there's two choices here.
[54:54.960 -> 55:00.160] We either carry on and we go down and we've got to go to Arsenal and try and get something,
[55:00.160 -> 55:06.040] or we show spirit and understanding what this place can be like when we can change it and
[55:06.040 -> 55:11.840] we get a goal and then the game changes instantly. It was pure, I said again tactics are not
[55:11.840 -> 55:14.160] important at this point, I can't tell you anything that's going to change this game,
[55:14.160 -> 55:18.200] only you can do it. So I don't think I'm taking huge credit for that one because absolutely
[55:18.200 -> 55:21.440] the players did it and the fans did it by the way, the stadium just, the minute we scored
[55:21.440 -> 55:26.640] the first one I can be sometimes a half-empty man, I might
[55:26.640 -> 55:30.760] not get a second or they might score another. You're assessing the game at all points. But
[55:30.760 -> 55:33.440] that was a night where really you go, something's happening here.
[55:33.440 -> 55:35.200] And then, boom, boom, it happened.
[55:35.200 -> 55:41.240] How important was it for you to speak directly to the fans? Again, watching from afar, that
[55:41.240 -> 55:44.680] felt such a smart move to me. I don't want this to come across as being cynical, but
[55:44.680 -> 55:48.900] if at that point the biggest value to you is to get the fans on the side right,
[55:48.900 -> 55:50.700] to make Goodison Park a fortress?
[55:50.700 -> 55:58.620] Yeah, it's not... yeah, I don't think it's cynical, I think it's part of your job. There
[55:58.620 -> 56:03.620] are so many ways to do it and it doesn't all have to be contrived or set up. I think a
[56:03.620 -> 56:05.800] lot of it has to be natural because
[56:05.800 -> 56:10.760] fans will see through things. Particularly fans in this part of the world. As far as
[56:10.760 -> 56:15.600] I see it, they're very, very savvy to their football. Evertonians, Liverpool fans. It's
[56:15.600 -> 56:20.000] a football with life. It's their everything. So they don't miss much. If I came in and
[56:20.000 -> 56:24.200] tried to tell a lie, and that's my point about speaking after Palace, I think a lot of fans
[56:24.200 -> 56:26.880] will go, yeah, I'll take that if he's going to say what we feel about it.
[56:26.880 -> 56:33.040] I can't guess what they all feel but I understood that from the place we were in, it was a difficult
[56:33.040 -> 56:38.280] time when I came in and it had to change the feeling. And what I did get naturally when
[56:38.280 -> 56:42.600] I first came in at the club was a positive bounce. And then I just felt like I wanted
[56:42.600 -> 56:49.180] to, for the fans to see how much it meant to me. Because I am an all-in person, you know, I don't know what you should
[56:49.180 -> 56:53.600] be. They shouldn't expect anything different. But my reaction is I want to be on the pitch
[56:53.600 -> 56:56.780] after a game if we win and I want to walk around Goodison and say thanks very much and
[56:56.780 -> 57:01.480] feel that. I get a buzz off that. But I would also think, if I'm a fan, that's what I want
[57:01.480 -> 57:08.560] to say. Not the old handshake down the tunnel, see you next week. That's important to me. I also realised very quickly it's a club of
[57:08.560 -> 57:14.280] strong, it's so strong in the community here and I'm not stupid, I saw that and I loved
[57:14.280 -> 57:17.480] it. It just started to build and it wasn't all me, it wasn't all genius, it wasn't all
[57:17.480 -> 57:21.840] thought out but I tried to just be honest when I spoke in press conferences, I tried
[57:21.840 -> 57:28.840] to celebrate a win, I tried to be honest about a defeat, I tried to defend the club when I felt we were hard done by with a few decisions, that
[57:28.840 -> 57:30.600] always goes down well with the fans.
[57:30.600 -> 57:35.000] But don't they just want honesty though from a manager? They just want to be taken on the
[57:35.000 -> 57:36.000] journey with you.
[57:36.000 -> 57:39.440] Yeah, and so there's the balance though. You have to do that but you've also got to come
[57:39.440 -> 57:43.960] to work with these lads. So if you're seen as coming off the game and going, I'm going
[57:43.960 -> 57:47.600] to give the players a bit of stick here because that's what the fans want to hear, I think you're done.
[57:47.600 -> 57:52.440] It's a very quick end. You can probably criticise the performance. The players have performed
[57:52.440 -> 57:57.360] badly today and I think they appreciate that honesty. There's a balance to that.
[57:57.360 -> 58:02.040] But again, in the time I was here, we did enough good things and I think the fans saw
[58:02.040 -> 58:05.480] enough good, and Goodison particularly,
[58:05.480 -> 58:08.960] and the fact that we were all working hard, myself, the staff, the feeling changed very
[58:08.960 -> 58:12.880] quickly and that felt quite natural. I'm not relying on that forever by the way because
[58:12.880 -> 58:20.480] you can't be seen as, he's great at playing the part but what's he actually doing because
[58:20.480 -> 58:27.420] that's always the thing you need to do first. I want to be good at both. I want people to feel like I'm managing and coaching
[58:27.420 -> 58:29.220] their football club, that they like what I'm trying to do.
[58:29.220 -> 58:34.220] They like the honesty or the celebrating or whatever.
[58:34.700 -> 58:36.740] As long as it's natural and it is for me,
[58:36.740 -> 58:39.500] it's not put on, then I think it's fine.
[58:39.500 -> 58:41.900] And when you had that defeat a couple of games
[58:41.900 -> 58:43.580] before the end of the season,
[58:43.580 -> 58:48.160] which put you right back in it, I remember I was trying to convince you to go to Norwich wasn't I?
[58:48.160 -> 58:51.400] And you were saying to me you know there's lots of reasons to take it and a
[58:51.400 -> 58:53.680] few reasons to not take it but I remember you said to me listen the next
[58:53.680 -> 58:58.040] job for me has to be the right job. Did you stay awake at night
[58:58.040 -> 59:01.680] thinking this is the right job at that point? Were you worried about
[59:01.680 -> 59:10.080] yourself at any point in that? Because you don't want to lose two jobs on the bounce, do you? I weirdly didn't. Really? I had lots of worries on a
[59:10.080 -> 59:14.560] professional note of like, I just want to win and I want to do it. I didn't do that kind of,
[59:14.560 -> 59:19.120] oh what will happen if I don't too much? Luckily I didn't because if you did think about that a lot,
[59:19.120 -> 59:23.440] I think it would affect you. Maybe that's more my security and where I am at the minute.
[59:24.000 -> 59:29.000] Because if we had got relegated and I had you know I know what I know what the consequences
[59:29.000 -> 59:31.720] would have been but I didn't hang on it too much
[59:31.720 -> 59:34.880] comes back to that freedom thing again doesn't it maybe a few years ago you
[59:34.880 -> 59:38.600] would have been twisted up yeah it was a strange whirlwind for me though Jake
[59:38.600 -> 59:42.120] because I from being out of a job to within a few days or I'm going to
[59:42.120 -> 59:49.640] everything like it's crazy my life changed completely now I actually saw it as an exciting challenge and I could box it off as a short-term one
[59:49.640 -> 59:54.480] as well because even though I had a longer-term contract, I knew what the permutations might
[59:54.480 -> 01:00:01.640] be if you don't. I was caught up in that challenge. I didn't really think about it. It might have
[01:00:01.640 -> 01:00:08.920] slipped into my head occasionally but not so much. Most of the players are the same, you're the same, the stadium's the same, the fans are
[01:00:08.920 -> 01:00:13.400] the same but you've got to make sure last season isn't recreated. Have you managed to
[01:00:13.400 -> 01:00:17.560] work out why a team with as much talent as this one has ended up in the position it ended
[01:00:17.560 -> 01:00:20.200] up in and how you stop it happening again?
[01:00:20.200 -> 01:00:25.520] There's talent through the Premier League for starters. I don't think anything should
[01:00:25.520 -> 01:00:31.400] be a given. I came into the club at a time when it was starting to take course of where
[01:00:31.400 -> 01:00:37.480] we were going to be in the season. We became one of the biggest stories of the potential
[01:00:37.480 -> 01:00:41.400] relegation fight because of our history and because of Everton. People were looking at
[01:00:41.400 -> 01:00:48.000] it and going, wow, here's going to be a story. But I think that was a red herring. I think the reality was we were where we were because that's where
[01:00:48.000 -> 01:00:50.760] we are. The league doesn't lie.
[01:00:50.760 -> 01:00:58.120] So, was it talent that had you there or was there something else that needed to be fixed?
[01:00:58.120 -> 01:01:01.120] There were things that needed to be fixed generally. I think, I mean, if you're talking
[01:01:01.120 -> 01:01:04.560] talent you're talking about how do we improve the squad, the recruitment policy and all
[01:01:04.560 -> 01:01:07.080] those things and yeah, we need to look at that. Of course, because every
[01:01:07.080 -> 01:01:14.280] team, no team wants to stand still or go backwards. We want to improve that. Now it's my job to
[01:01:14.280 -> 01:01:19.360] be part of the team that makes that better. That's clear. I've got no qualms in saying
[01:01:19.360 -> 01:01:23.600] that every team will want to improve. We'll look at areas of the squad in balance. We
[01:01:23.600 -> 01:01:25.080] lost five players straight away at the end of the squad in balance. We lost five players
[01:01:25.080 -> 01:01:27.880] straight away at the end of the season, we're out of contracts, we're going back on loan,
[01:01:27.880 -> 01:01:31.760] the squad looks different. Okay, where is it balanced, where is it not? So those are
[01:01:31.760 -> 01:01:36.200] questions and then the first thing again is, going back to my hard work one, what are we
[01:01:36.200 -> 01:01:37.200] going to do about it?
[01:01:37.200 -> 01:01:44.600] To say we don't bring in players, my job is not there to cry my eyes out too much about
[01:01:44.600 -> 01:01:47.040] things in the end. My job is to work with what I've got
[01:01:47.040 -> 01:01:50.960] and respect and I'm happy with the squad we've got. Do I want to make it better? Yes. Do
[01:01:50.960 -> 01:01:54.560] I want to make us better? Yes. But we have to be careful here. I think we've ever said
[01:01:54.560 -> 01:01:58.760] now where our expectations are. We have to go, okay, we were there for a reason. Let's
[01:01:58.760 -> 01:02:03.080] make a step forward in terms of results and in terms of performance and let's do it together
[01:02:03.080 -> 01:02:07.360] and let's keep working in that direction. I just see it as that, that's the work now.
[01:02:07.920 -> 01:02:10.560] And you have a very different team around you to the one you had at Chelsea.
[01:02:11.200 -> 01:02:14.160] More experience? In part?
[01:02:14.880 -> 01:02:20.960] Yeah, I think it's really interesting stuff, how people analyse it. I'm talking about within the
[01:02:20.960 -> 01:02:25.180] game because I'm seen as a young coach. There's some ticks
[01:02:25.180 -> 01:02:33.520] and crosses against that straight away. My assistant manager, Joe Edwards, who I work
[01:02:33.520 -> 01:02:37.480] with at Chelsea, is seen as a young coach. He's younger than me. So there's ticks and
[01:02:37.480 -> 01:02:41.360] crosses. The ticks are he's won the Champions League with Chelsea last year. He's part of
[01:02:41.360 -> 01:02:50.040] the first team staff. He's won everything he could win in the academy, at Chelsea, all these things. So Paul Clement got brought in to my staff because he has
[01:02:50.040 -> 01:02:55.560] different tics and different strengths and one of them would be experience. For me personally,
[01:02:55.560 -> 01:02:58.500] the managerial experience, so that's a great little thing on certain little things that
[01:02:58.500 -> 01:03:03.720] come up to speak about. Ashley Cole comes in again, saying the similar thing but we're
[01:03:03.720 -> 01:03:08.740] seen as a young staff, there's nothing wrong with that. In terms of my staff, I think we attack the day every
[01:03:08.740 -> 01:03:13.440] day. We've all got our strengths and I respect everybody's strengths within the group and
[01:03:13.440 -> 01:03:17.520] if they're good at things then you do it, no problem. Chris Jones is one I haven't mentioned
[01:03:17.520 -> 01:03:20.720] I've worked with since I started managing at Derby and I've worked with as a player
[01:03:20.720 -> 01:03:21.720] at Chelsea.
[01:03:21.720 -> 01:03:29.380] Paul Clements arrived to maybe bring in some experience. yeah, that's great. But as I say, there's a few Champions League medals within my team
[01:03:29.380 -> 01:03:33.680] as well. I'm not shouting that from the rooftops but I trust in them, that's my point.
[01:03:33.680 -> 01:03:37.320] How did you decide who was in the new team for this job?
[01:03:37.320 -> 01:03:47.520] You have to decide what you think is the team that complements each other the best, that will move forward in the best direction
[01:03:47.520 -> 01:03:51.320] will support me. Sounds a little bit like you're putting yourself at the top of a tree
[01:03:51.320 -> 01:03:55.040] but I suppose you are because you're the one that lives and dies by it in the end. Support
[01:03:55.040 -> 01:04:01.160] me in the things I'm not so strong at, need help in, you need a team. It's a modern day
[01:04:01.160 -> 01:04:05.160] football team, there's so much to it. Lots of teams have more staff
[01:04:05.160 -> 01:04:09.160] than what we have. We walked in and Duncan Ferguson was here, he's moved on now, his
[01:04:09.160 -> 01:04:14.560] owner called. And Duncan was brilliant for me in three months last season. Incredible.
[01:04:14.560 -> 01:04:19.080] I understand at the club, a different viewpoint to what myself and the staff had in a good
[01:04:19.080 -> 01:04:23.720] way. He could give his opinions on players and all those things. And an icon at the place,
[01:04:23.720 -> 01:04:25.640] legend. So those things
[01:04:25.640 -> 01:04:28.720] are all just there to hopefully compliment each other and give you the best chance of
[01:04:28.720 -> 01:04:32.440] success and you all have to get on and you all have to have a similar, like we talk about
[01:04:32.440 -> 01:04:35.000] alignment, you don't have to have exactly the same views, it's good to have different
[01:04:35.000 -> 01:04:40.360] views but you've got to be able to work together and if you disagree in a room about something
[01:04:40.360 -> 01:04:44.400] you better be able to walk out and be mates and be good together after that because this
[01:04:44.400 -> 01:04:46.060] job will challenge you brilliant
[01:04:46.060 -> 01:04:48.300] We've reached the point of our quickfire questions Frank
[01:04:48.820 -> 01:04:52.700] One of these will be different from the first time around. What are your three non negotiables?
[01:04:53.100 -> 01:04:54.800] I'm just gonna repeat obviously
[01:04:54.800 -> 01:04:58.700] I think what I said before I actually didn't get this far on the bike earlier, so I don't know what I said last
[01:05:00.700 -> 01:05:02.700] I did 50 minutes and it was like
[01:05:03.460 -> 01:05:05.000] The best bit the last time!
[01:05:05.000 -> 01:05:07.000] Well let's see what they are now then.
[01:05:07.000 -> 01:05:10.000] I don't know, I mean, well definitely hard work.
[01:05:10.000 -> 01:05:14.000] I don't know if I can say that and I know that and I've heard some great ones you've done
[01:05:14.000 -> 01:05:18.000] and I think generally like if you're not going to work hard how are you going to get to where you want to be?
[01:05:18.000 -> 01:05:25.840] I think respect in the workplace, having respect for everybody around you, from your team-mate,
[01:05:25.840 -> 01:05:30.760] from me and my staff. It's something I worked on. I realised in this building, particularly
[01:05:30.760 -> 01:05:35.280] at Everton, there are Evertonians everywhere. It's part of the beauty of the club. You've
[01:05:35.280 -> 01:05:39.800] got to respect everyone in the building because the person, your top goal scorer, you may
[01:05:39.800 -> 01:05:43.640] find that somebody who works in the medical room is just as important to them in a different
[01:05:43.640 -> 01:05:46.020] way. So I think that thing is a non-negotiable
[01:05:46.020 -> 01:05:48.240] of having respect across the board.
[01:05:48.240 -> 01:05:51.240] The third one, I could say discipline,
[01:05:51.240 -> 01:05:53.620] but then I'm sounding like I'm running a tight ship.
[01:05:53.620 -> 01:05:54.720] And I think in the modern day,
[01:05:54.720 -> 01:05:56.640] don't we want to enjoy the workplace as well?
[01:05:56.640 -> 01:06:00.000] So, you know, that's the balance I'm always trying to find.
[01:06:00.000 -> 01:06:01.500] That's not really a non-negotiable, is it?
[01:06:01.500 -> 01:06:03.000] But I think you're talking about things
[01:06:03.000 -> 01:06:04.520] that are important to you.
[01:06:04.520 -> 01:06:06.720] And I think discipline's an important thing,
[01:06:06.720 -> 01:06:09.760] but I always remember in my playing days,
[01:06:09.760 -> 01:06:12.560] I don't remember many tactics or many tactical instructions.
[01:06:12.560 -> 01:06:15.080] I remember when I felt good and I enjoyed my work.
[01:06:15.080 -> 01:06:16.760] And so I would love the players
[01:06:16.760 -> 01:06:18.880] to be able to feel like that in this place.
[01:06:18.880 -> 01:06:20.200] Happiness, that's a non-negotiable.
[01:06:20.200 -> 01:06:21.280] Come and be happy.
[01:06:21.280 -> 01:06:23.080] Can I ask you just as an aside,
[01:06:23.080 -> 01:06:25.600] like when you describe your experience here at Everton,
[01:06:25.600 -> 01:06:27.960] like the example that really resonates
[01:06:27.960 -> 01:06:31.160] from the first interview was when you describe you
[01:06:31.160 -> 01:06:33.560] like growing to your grandparents in the East End
[01:06:33.560 -> 01:06:35.920] and being part of that community,
[01:06:35.920 -> 01:06:37.720] you know, where everyone had each other's back,
[01:06:37.720 -> 01:06:38.920] you all look out for each other
[01:06:38.920 -> 01:06:40.720] was the way you described it.
[01:06:40.720 -> 01:06:48.200] How similar does that resonate with you? A lot, yeah. I didn't expect it.
[01:06:48.200 -> 01:06:53.000] My memory is not so much of coming to Everton but coming to Liverpool I used to get so much stick.
[01:06:53.000 -> 01:06:56.400] Chelsea play Liverpool like 10 times a year at one period.
[01:06:56.400 -> 01:07:00.600] I wasn't sectioning off the whole of Liverpool in one idea.
[01:07:00.600 -> 01:07:05.560] I've come to the club with a real, I was really interested to see how the club
[01:07:05.560 -> 01:07:11.040] would feel about me, the fans, the community, how I would feel back. It's been the most
[01:07:11.040 -> 01:07:18.920] pleasing thing for me, how I felt at this club, working within the club, going to Goodison,
[01:07:18.920 -> 01:07:32.120] going around Liverpool, meeting fans, travelling to America pre-season, meeting fans out there. I felt so quickly part of the family unit of Evertonians. And that's huge. I've been absolutely overwhelmed
[01:07:32.120 -> 01:07:35.880] with that side of things. And it just makes you want to give back. It really makes you
[01:07:35.880 -> 01:07:39.960] want to do well here because whenever you speak to them, whatever our expectations are,
[01:07:39.960 -> 01:07:43.880] it's like, you just beat those twice this year we were playing Liverpool. If you can
[01:07:43.880 -> 01:07:48.680] win those games that will do me. Or this or that. It's just such a heartfelt passion within this
[01:07:48.680 -> 01:07:54.120] club that they're very forward and giving to you and I've really appreciated that side
[01:07:54.120 -> 01:07:59.320] of it. It's made me feel really kind of, I don't know, interlinked with the club straight
[01:07:59.320 -> 01:08:00.320] away naturally.
[01:08:00.320 -> 01:08:06.000] So next quick fire is where were you where are you and where you going?
[01:08:06.000 -> 01:08:12.000] This is a new one? Oh yeah, this one's a bit abstract but I think you'll quite like it.
[01:08:12.000 -> 01:08:19.000] You've got to send me these beforehand then surely. Where were you? When?
[01:08:19.000 -> 01:08:23.400] Let's go back to when we last spoke where were you then? Where are you now?
[01:08:23.400 -> 01:08:27.000] Where are you then?
[01:08:27.000 -> 01:08:31.400] If I'm honest I was going into year two at Chelsea, excited, proud to be managing the
[01:08:31.400 -> 01:08:35.480] club but also probably in a place at that point where I was a bit like, what's next
[01:08:35.480 -> 01:08:40.160] year going to look like? And it was very different from year one. So probably I knew expectations
[01:08:40.160 -> 01:08:47.280] were going to go through. So I would have had some, not fears is the right word, but I would
[01:08:47.280 -> 01:08:51.680] be questioning where is this going to go. If you had asked me, my honest answer, do
[01:08:51.680 -> 01:08:54.280] you think you'll be at Chelsea for the next five years and have a monopoly of Britain,
[01:08:54.280 -> 01:08:58.560] I probably would have said no, not really, I don't see that. That would have been a bit
[01:08:58.560 -> 01:09:02.280] of jeopardy for me, I couldn't have given you an answer for when we last spoke. I don't
[01:09:02.280 -> 01:09:08.960] want to sound too negative about it because I was in a good place managing Chelsea and we were just about to buy players and so it was pretty
[01:09:08.960 -> 01:09:13.200] good. Where am I now? I hope you can probably get it from me that I'm really enjoying my
[01:09:13.200 -> 01:09:20.120] work. The only thing that now is difficult for me in any way is when I miss my children
[01:09:20.120 -> 01:09:23.320] and miss Christine if we're not together all the time because I was fortunate to have that
[01:09:23.320 -> 01:09:29.600] for a year. But in terms of the workplace and my determination to do well at this club,
[01:09:29.600 -> 01:09:34.880] I'm in a really good place. I love coming here to work every day. I love the staff I'm working with.
[01:09:34.880 -> 01:09:39.920] I want to be as good as I can be. So that's a good place for me to be professionally now.
[01:09:39.920 -> 01:09:40.960] Where will I get to?
[01:09:40.960 -> 01:09:42.080] Where are you going?
[01:09:42.080 -> 01:09:48.040] I've come here, we've got a new stadium coming here in the next two years. I want to be able to manage this club to success and make us better on the
[01:09:48.040 -> 01:09:53.440] pitch, take us into a new stadium and do as well as I can in the job. And then outside
[01:09:53.440 -> 01:09:59.840] of that I want to see my children grow, be happy at home and everybody happy and healthy.
[01:09:59.840 -> 01:10:03.360] I touched on it earlier, I really do. I think we're all here, I don't know everyone in the
[01:10:03.360 -> 01:10:07.400] room but you self-chat, I know how you feel about your children and those things.
[01:10:07.400 -> 01:10:12.200] For me it just gets stronger all the time, all my children, so that's hopefully they stay well.
[01:10:12.200 -> 01:10:15.800] What is your greatest strength and what's your biggest weakness?
[01:10:15.800 -> 01:10:25.260] I'm resilient. I'm resilient. I think I found that out in some of my work experiences from being a player to being a manager.
[01:10:25.260 -> 01:10:27.020] I'm very resilient naturally.
[01:10:27.940 -> 01:10:30.740] My weakness is probably impatient
[01:10:30.740 -> 01:10:32.500] to get to where I want to get to.
[01:10:32.500 -> 01:10:33.400] And the final one, Frank,
[01:10:33.400 -> 01:10:35.420] what's your one final message
[01:10:35.420 -> 01:10:37.300] to live a high performance life?
[01:10:37.300 -> 01:10:41.460] I think is you have to be very focused
[01:10:41.460 -> 01:10:43.660] on where you want to get to
[01:10:43.660 -> 01:10:45.240] and have a clear idea and vision,
[01:10:45.240 -> 01:10:48.640] and then you have to be ready to move and evolve with that,
[01:10:48.640 -> 01:10:51.160] because I think there are no simple answers to it.
[01:10:51.160 -> 01:10:53.280] I listen to so many of your podcasts,
[01:10:53.280 -> 01:10:55.080] and everyone gives a really interesting variation
[01:10:55.080 -> 01:10:56.280] of the answer, don't they?
[01:10:56.280 -> 01:10:58.840] And so there isn't one.
[01:10:58.840 -> 01:11:01.920] Everybody's looks different for whatever relative reason.
[01:11:01.920 -> 01:11:04.160] Like why should, if we look at the people
[01:11:04.160 -> 01:11:08.560] I keep mentioning, Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola as this's incredible because we all see it. It's all there. It's
[01:11:08.560 -> 01:11:12.160] tangible. We go there. There's people that are working at so many different levels of
[01:11:12.160 -> 01:11:16.240] sport that are performing at really high levels in their own world and it looks completely
[01:11:16.240 -> 01:11:20.400] different and maybe they don't even get on our radars. So I think just to stay focused
[01:11:20.400 -> 01:11:24.120] and keep working hard and keep moving in a forward direction.
[01:11:24.120 -> 01:11:24.620] Brilliant.
[01:11:25.880 -> 01:11:26.880] Damien. Jake.
[01:11:26.880 -> 01:11:34.880] You know, I think the standout for me, right, Damien, is how serene Frank is, like how relaxed
[01:11:34.880 -> 01:11:36.040] he is in that environment.
[01:11:36.040 -> 01:11:40.480] And I think this is a great reminder that, you know, things that are hard for us are
[01:11:40.480 -> 01:11:41.480] not always bad for us.
[01:11:41.480 -> 01:11:48.960] And let me say that again for people listening, things that are hard for us are not always bad for us. And let me say that again for people listening, things that are hard for us are not necessarily bad for us. I think that losing his job at Chelsea,
[01:11:48.960 -> 01:11:52.760] I think the hard times that he went through, I think being out of work for a period of
[01:11:52.760 -> 01:11:58.000] time has given him an ability to not grip so tightly onto what he has, you know, I sort
[01:11:58.000 -> 01:12:02.960] of feel like the Frank that we initially spoke to when he was at Chelsea was like this stiff,
[01:12:02.960 -> 01:12:05.800] rigid guy. He was so desperate to be successful
[01:12:05.800 -> 01:12:07.440] that he had a certain way of doing things
[01:12:07.440 -> 01:12:10.880] and he wasn't able, probably through fear,
[01:12:10.880 -> 01:12:12.400] to let go of those things.
[01:12:12.400 -> 01:12:14.760] But I think that he still remains the winner he was
[01:12:14.760 -> 01:12:15.800] on the football field.
[01:12:15.800 -> 01:12:18.380] He remains the guy who has that deep desire to do well,
[01:12:18.380 -> 01:12:20.400] but he's now realising that being rigid
[01:12:20.400 -> 01:12:21.400] and gripping on tightly
[01:12:21.400 -> 01:12:23.680] is not necessarily gonna get him there.
[01:12:23.680 -> 01:12:25.440] He's also brilliantly self-reflective, isn't he?
[01:12:25.440 -> 01:12:27.220] Like that bit where he talks about the fact
[01:12:27.220 -> 01:12:29.080] that he didn't communicate properly
[01:12:29.080 -> 01:12:30.600] with those above him at Chelsea.
[01:12:30.600 -> 01:12:33.520] You know, that is such important self-reflection,
[01:12:33.520 -> 01:12:34.520] don't you think?
[01:12:34.520 -> 01:12:35.360] Absolutely, Jake.
[01:12:35.360 -> 01:12:36.960] I think that's a really smart point.
[01:12:36.960 -> 01:12:39.320] I think it's been such a real privilege
[01:12:39.320 -> 01:12:42.960] to get to meet Frank again and to listen to his insights
[01:12:42.960 -> 01:13:05.000] and his experiences, especially from when things did go wrong for him at Chelsea. i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd â'i gilydd, i gwrdd ag e, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilydd, i grwpio'r gilyddychometric allwn ni fod, pan ddod o'r pwysau, mae'n sylwi
[01:13:05.000 -> 01:13:12.000] ei fod wedi'i ddewis i'w lefel o fod yn unwaith, rydyn ni'n gwybod, stopio'r cyfathrebu
[01:13:12.000 -> 01:13:17.000] a rhedeg too many problems, ac nawr mae'n cydnabod bod hynny'n ei gynrychioli.
[01:13:17.000 -> 01:13:23.000] Mae hynny'n eitha'r sæd o'r hyn sydd wedi digwydd iddo iddo iddo ar y diwedd y Chelsea.
[01:13:23.000 -> 01:13:27.960] Nawr, gall y cwpwl hynny unig i'w gwne fynd yn eich gwella, yn eich gwneud eich well.
[01:13:27.960 -> 01:13:33.520] Roedd yn fy ysgrifennu i mi, mae stori gwych y bydd y cyfansoddwr o GE, Jack Welsh,
[01:13:33.520 -> 01:13:36.960] wedi dweud y byddwn yn ystod ei gyrfa yn gyntaf, fe wnaethon nhw gwneud coc-up fawr
[01:13:36.960 -> 01:13:40.480] a oedd yn ymwneud â'r ddifrifol yn y ffatur yn cael ei fflwno.
[01:13:40.480 -> 01:13:43.280] Ac roedd yn gobeithio ei fod yn cael ei sgwrsio ar y ddŵr hwnnw,
[01:13:43.280 -> 01:13:50.560] ac yw'r rheolwr wedi dweud iddo, roedd yn dweud, dwi ddim yn mynd i sgwrs i chi, dwi'n rhoi'r gwasanaeth ymgyrch mwy coedigol y gallwch chi ymwneud â'i.
[01:13:50.560 -> 01:13:57.440] Ac rwy'n credu ein bod ni'n aml yn ddim yn gyflym i ysgrifennu pobl ar gyfer yr hyn sy'n cael ei ystyried fel nidd,
[01:13:57.440 -> 01:14:02.560] gwybod, os oes ganddyn nhw sgwrs ar y clwb, neu os nad oes ganddyn nhw gyfansoddiad mewn un amgylchedd penodol,
[01:14:02.560 -> 01:14:06.020] pan fydd y realiaeth yw, pan ydych chi'n cymryd rhan yn y cyfathrebu a ddewisodd Ffrainc i ni yma, been a success in one particular environment. When the reality is that when you engage in the reflection
[01:14:06.020 -> 01:14:07.800] that Frank's described to us here,
[01:14:07.800 -> 01:14:09.900] you become so much better, so much stronger,
[01:14:09.900 -> 01:14:11.860] so much more self-aware.
[01:14:11.860 -> 01:14:13.220] And for him to share that with us,
[01:14:13.220 -> 01:14:17.700] I think smacks of real self-confidence and self-assurance
[01:14:17.700 -> 01:14:19.580] and high levels of self-esteem
[01:14:19.580 -> 01:14:22.920] that he's willing to let us in and understand that.
[01:14:22.920 -> 01:14:24.740] Listen, Damien, I fully agree.
[01:14:24.740 -> 01:14:27.200] I'm so pleased that we had Frank Lampard on the podcast.
[01:14:27.200 -> 01:14:29.800] Frank, I can't thank you enough for coming on and talking like this.
[01:14:29.800 -> 01:14:33.200] And I know that, you know, this isn't a conversation about football,
[01:14:33.200 -> 01:14:36.000] but lots of football fans will come to this conversation
[01:14:36.000 -> 01:14:36.900] because of who's on it.
[01:14:36.900 -> 01:14:39.900] And I just want to let you know that we are getting messages weekly
[01:14:39.900 -> 01:14:44.100] from Premier League players, Premier League managers, Premier League coaches,
[01:14:44.100 -> 01:14:49.140] Premier League CEOs and staff. They're listening to High Performance, they're using it in their
[01:14:49.140 -> 01:14:53.620] everyday lives and I'm excited to tell you that there are plenty more guests coming on
[01:14:53.620 -> 01:14:57.400] from the Premier League over the next few weeks and months, so watch this space.
[01:14:57.400 -> 01:15:01.960] It's time once again to meet one of the listeners of High Performance and instead of me reading
[01:15:01.960 -> 01:15:08.160] out the message and telling the story, I think that Phil should probably tell his own story. So Phil thank you first of all
[01:15:08.160 -> 01:15:12.280] so much for joining us. Obviously this is a podcast so people can hear it they
[01:15:12.280 -> 01:15:17.000] can't see it but just to paint a picture we're chatting over Zoom. You've got a
[01:15:17.000 -> 01:15:20.760] couple of wings clearly on your t-shirt you're wearing behind you I can see
[01:15:20.760 -> 01:15:29.440] images of planes and helicopters and all sorts and that is a nice way of introducing the life that you've enjoyed and lived. So would
[01:15:29.440 -> 01:15:33.000] you mind sharing a bit of that story to start with with our listeners?
[01:15:33.000 -> 01:15:39.640] Sure, it would be my pleasure to do so. So I come from humble beginnings, somebody who
[01:15:39.640 -> 01:15:44.840] has not been blessed with above-average credentials in terms of physical or
[01:15:44.840 -> 01:15:46.000] mental aptitude,
[01:15:46.000 -> 01:15:51.040] but I'm someone who's been pretty gritty and determined and some would say I've been able to
[01:15:51.040 -> 01:16:00.720] achieve some quite extraordinary things. But I had a huge reality check. In 2014, I was on cloud nine.
[01:16:00.720 -> 01:16:06.520] At the time, I was a combat helicopter pilot doing really well in the RAF, racing
[01:16:06.520 -> 01:16:15.080] up the promotion and the ranks. I had a wonderful family, a beautiful wife, Beth, and two gorgeous
[01:16:15.080 -> 01:16:22.360] daughters, Isla and Bella. So life in terms of career and family was running on rails.
[01:16:22.360 -> 01:16:26.480] And sporting-wise, a hugely passionate sportsman, that was
[01:16:26.480 -> 01:16:30.320] going really well as representing the Royal Air Force in triathlon and
[01:16:30.320 -> 01:16:37.320] marathon and life was as good as it got. Also I thought, I distinctly remember one
[01:16:37.320 -> 01:16:43.880] weekend in 2014, on the Saturday I'd got to fly at the front of the Queen's
[01:16:43.880 -> 01:16:46.160] birthday flypast over Buckingham Palace and then on the Sunday, I'd got to fly at the front of the Queen's Birthday Flypass over Buckingham Palace.
[01:16:46.960 -> 01:16:52.720] And then on the Sunday, it was Father's Day, which I spent with my girls, and we went to a triathlon,
[01:16:52.720 -> 01:16:59.120] which I even managed to win and come across the finish line with my daughters. So I thought,
[01:16:59.120 -> 01:17:05.120] this is as good as it got. And if someone had said to me, in four weeks time, you'll be a crumpled heap,
[01:17:05.120 -> 01:17:09.520] I'd have said that's rubbish. It's ridiculous. I'm resilient. I've got this high performance
[01:17:09.520 -> 01:17:15.600] being nailed. But the truth was, it was just a thin veneer. And in the next four weeks,
[01:17:15.600 -> 01:17:28.020] as a family, we discovered that Isla, my 22 month old youngest daughter, hadmia and life unraveled. It was the most gut-wrenching experience.
[01:17:28.020 -> 01:17:31.760] I felt wholly ill-equipped, just stood on the sidelines
[01:17:31.760 -> 01:17:36.060] while young Isla walked this tightrope of life and death.
[01:17:36.060 -> 01:17:38.600] And I felt I couldn't do anything about it.
[01:17:38.600 -> 01:17:41.100] My whole life I'd been able to fix stuff,
[01:17:41.100 -> 01:17:44.040] but I had to sit back and let the miracle workers
[01:17:44.040 -> 01:17:48.800] from the NHS and charities step in. And so that is when I
[01:17:48.800 -> 01:17:52.900] started to learn properly about high performance, properly about
[01:17:52.900 -> 01:17:56.560] psychological resilience. And what happened from that point
[01:17:56.560 -> 01:18:01.040] was I realised that my purpose was to use what I could do,
[01:18:01.080 -> 01:18:04.920] which was, I guess, my sporting pedigree. And I wanted to
[01:18:04.920 -> 01:18:06.800] celebrate each year
[01:18:06.800 -> 01:18:12.320] Isla was in remission from leukemia and set myself challenges right on the edge of the possible.
[01:18:13.200 -> 01:18:20.560] And so each year I set a physical challenge, which scared me, it intimidated me, and it allowed me to
[01:18:20.560 -> 01:18:26.440] connect with Isla to understand her fear or uncertainty, some of the pain, some of the suffering,
[01:18:26.720 -> 01:18:31.240] and also to raise money for some of the incredible charities which supported
[01:18:31.240 -> 01:18:35.160] Isla. And so it started this series of five challenges,
[01:18:35.520 -> 01:18:37.600] which connected me to my true purpose,
[01:18:37.680 -> 01:18:42.080] connected me to my daughter and really taught me about high performance.
[01:18:42.160 -> 01:18:45.040] So I guess that's, that's the story in brief, gentlemen.
[01:18:45.760 -> 01:18:46.400] Bloody hell.
[01:18:47.680 -> 01:18:51.080] I mean, that's, I mean, thank you for sharing so openly and
[01:18:51.080 -> 01:18:56.040] candidly, Phil, I think it's just left me a little bit speechless.
[01:18:56.120 -> 01:18:59.720] I'm interested in what you said there about you wanted to experience the fear
[01:18:59.720 -> 01:19:04.080] that Isla had gone through and in terms of the challenges you take on.
[01:19:04.680 -> 01:19:09.640] Would you tell us a little bit about that fear and how, how long it lasts
[01:19:09.640 -> 01:19:11.360] and how you sort of journey through it?
[01:19:11.760 -> 01:19:12.240] Sure.
[01:19:12.240 -> 01:19:17.280] So I think when Isla got diagnosed, I thought I understood fear.
[01:19:17.320 -> 01:19:19.000] I thought I had mastered it.
[01:19:19.560 -> 01:19:23.840] I had been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan as a combat helicopter pilot.
[01:19:24.280 -> 01:19:25.160] I thought I knew
[01:19:25.160 -> 01:19:33.080] what terror was, but it was nothing. I was wholly ill-equipped and I was just mortified
[01:19:33.080 -> 01:19:38.840] at what lay ahead. So the challenges were a way of me to try and understand what poor
[01:19:38.840 -> 01:19:43.680] Isla was going through. It was an opportunity for me to reframe what I was doing and think
[01:19:43.680 -> 01:19:45.360] about what she was doing.
[01:19:45.360 -> 01:19:47.120] Some of the challenges, for example,
[01:19:47.120 -> 01:19:50.440] in some of the runs or later became the big one,
[01:19:50.440 -> 01:19:52.360] the row across the Atlantic,
[01:19:52.360 -> 01:19:55.000] it was a chance to try and understand
[01:19:55.000 -> 01:19:57.360] those first experiences she had.
[01:19:57.360 -> 01:19:59.920] So the uncertainty of being in hospital,
[01:19:59.920 -> 01:20:02.400] that alien environment,
[01:20:02.400 -> 01:20:04.880] having two and a half years of chemotherapy
[01:20:04.880 -> 01:20:05.280] to try and
[01:20:05.280 -> 01:20:09.080] understand what that meant and what she was going through and just that
[01:20:09.080 -> 01:20:15.420] unfamiliarity with that horrendous journey she went on. So for me it was a
[01:20:15.420 -> 01:20:20.600] way of processing what she went through but also connecting me because at
[01:20:20.600 -> 01:20:29.000] the time I felt I couldn't support her as a father. So it was something positive I could do in that terrible time in our lives.
[01:20:29.000 -> 01:20:34.000] And I think Phil that this resilience, this adaptability,
[01:20:34.000 -> 01:20:37.000] this desire to be able to deal with anything that comes our way,
[01:20:37.000 -> 01:20:41.000] like we all have that and we'd all love to develop those skills,
[01:20:41.000 -> 01:20:44.000] but none of us want to go through what you and Ida and your family have gone through.
[01:20:44.000 -> 01:20:47.200] So is there anything that you've learned from that period that you could
[01:20:47.200 -> 01:20:53.040] share with us, a lesson about resilience and about that, you know, that adaptability that
[01:20:53.040 -> 01:20:57.960] you've had to bring into your life, that we could all learn from without the trauma that
[01:20:57.960 -> 01:20:59.520] you've clearly had to face as well?
[01:20:59.520 -> 01:21:05.580] That's a great question, Jake. And I often reflect back, I would never want anyone to experience
[01:21:05.580 -> 01:21:09.280] what we've experienced as a family, but I wish they could see the world through our
[01:21:09.280 -> 01:21:16.920] eyes. And I think my own experience was I naively thought I was bulletproof, utterly
[01:21:16.920 -> 01:21:22.440] resilient, but I just had a thin veneer, but in reality, it was a thin veneer of resilience.
[01:21:22.440 -> 01:21:25.440] And resilience is a lifelong journey. It's a project
[01:21:25.440 -> 01:21:31.280] you've got to set yourself and constantly feed. So I think there's putting yourself in stretch.
[01:21:31.280 -> 01:21:38.080] Yes, I think Ross Edgley calls it wintering the mind and body. So that absolutely is important,
[01:21:38.080 -> 01:21:44.240] getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. But what I found really worked was the network.
[01:21:44.240 -> 01:21:49.700] I didn't realize the importance of a social network in terms of psychological resilience.
[01:21:49.700 -> 01:21:54.400] And when I wasn't able to do anything, when Isla was suffering in hospital, when I could
[01:21:54.400 -> 01:22:00.600] just sit on the sidelines, it was realizing actually the support of others is so critical
[01:22:00.600 -> 01:22:01.960] to psychological resilience.
[01:22:01.960 -> 01:22:05.200] That social network, calling on friends who came
[01:22:05.200 -> 01:22:10.240] in with meals on wheels service, would call in the middle of the night, would come to
[01:22:10.240 -> 01:22:15.840] the hospital and support us as a family. So that was the real learning point to me, the
[01:22:15.840 -> 01:22:20.920] importance of that social network in providing and supporting your resilience.
[01:22:20.920 -> 01:22:25.680] And we're all humbled by the fact that you've invited High Performance with us
[01:22:25.680 -> 01:22:29.320] on some of these incredible journeys you've been on, Phil. Is there one
[01:22:29.320 -> 01:22:33.960] particular message or lesson that you've taken from the interviews you've heard
[01:22:33.960 -> 01:22:40.040] that have helped you? So many. So the final challenge was a team challenge and
[01:22:40.040 -> 01:22:46.520] this was rowing across the Atlantic with three Royal Air Force colleagues, all avid fans
[01:22:46.520 -> 01:22:48.160] of the podcast.
[01:22:48.160 -> 01:22:53.680] The whole way across, we were trying to reflect and see how some of the lessons apply to what
[01:22:53.680 -> 01:22:54.680] we were doing.
[01:22:54.680 -> 01:23:01.300] I think ones which stand out, so one would be world-class basics and the compound effect.
[01:23:01.300 -> 01:23:06.000] In the lead up to rowing across the Atlantic, we had to commit to a simple training
[01:23:06.000 -> 01:23:11.920] regime, knowing that each day we weren't making that much progress, but that compounded over
[01:23:11.920 -> 01:23:17.800] time. As long as we stuck to these disciplined world-class basics, it was going to lead to
[01:23:17.800 -> 01:23:23.720] us being on the start line, fully equipped to take on a nearly impossible challenge.
[01:23:23.720 -> 01:23:28.000] I think another one would be the importance of vulnerability.
[01:23:28.000 -> 01:23:31.600] On the boat, we had nothing to prove to each other.
[01:23:31.600 -> 01:23:34.360] All of us were combat pilots who had served
[01:23:34.360 -> 01:23:36.800] in theaters around the world.
[01:23:36.800 -> 01:23:39.600] We didn't have to prove that we were, you know,
[01:23:39.600 -> 01:23:41.960] men of metal or stronger than anything.
[01:23:41.960 -> 01:23:44.240] We didn't need to be Spartacus.
[01:23:44.240 -> 01:23:45.360] We could be vulnerable.
[01:23:45.360 -> 01:23:52.400] And that was hugely important because there were times in that row where you were feeling utterly
[01:23:52.400 -> 01:23:57.520] at your lowest ebb and being able to talk it through and pull on the energy of the rest of
[01:23:57.520 -> 01:24:09.280] the team was critically important. And I'd say the final one was purpose. Initially going into it, it was just my purpose, which was raising money, raising awareness
[01:24:09.280 -> 01:24:13.160] of cancer charities and connecting with Islay.
[01:24:13.160 -> 01:24:18.280] But the whole team got on board with this shared vision, this shared purpose.
[01:24:18.280 -> 01:24:21.800] It was so powerful.
[01:24:21.800 -> 01:24:26.080] The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. And that was due to this shared purpose.
[01:24:26.080 -> 01:24:30.920] So these are all lessons which came out from your podcast and being able to
[01:24:30.920 -> 01:24:35.560] crystallize them, you know, on the Atlantic was, was a really special moment for us.
[01:24:35.840 -> 01:24:36.440] Wonderful.
[01:24:36.520 -> 01:24:39.800] And the most important question of all is how's Isla doing now?
[01:24:40.120 -> 01:24:40.680] You're right.
[01:24:40.680 -> 01:24:41.920] It is the most important thing.
[01:24:41.920 -> 01:24:45.920] So Isla is nine years old, nearly 10.
[01:24:45.920 -> 01:24:50.200] She has defeated cancer and that was last November.
[01:24:50.200 -> 01:24:52.880] So she'd been in remission for five years.
[01:24:52.880 -> 01:24:56.320] So after nearly a thousand doses of chemotherapy,
[01:24:57.640 -> 01:25:01.400] 20 plus blood transfusions, months in hospital,
[01:25:01.400 -> 01:25:02.240] she's done it.
[01:25:02.240 -> 01:25:04.160] And the best thing is you'd never know.
[01:25:04.160 -> 01:25:06.000] And she's my resilience role model.
[01:25:06.000 -> 01:25:07.000] She optimises it.
[01:25:07.000 -> 01:25:09.000] Never feel sorry for herself.
[01:25:09.000 -> 01:25:10.000] One second.
[01:25:10.000 -> 01:25:13.000] Look, thank you so much, Phil, for coming on and sharing that story.
[01:25:13.000 -> 01:25:16.000] And I know that will be so helpful for so many people.
[01:25:16.000 -> 01:25:21.000] And what a fascinating and amazing thing to come on and tell us.
[01:25:21.000 -> 01:25:22.000] Thank you, gentlemen.
[01:25:22.000 -> 01:25:23.000] A pleasure to be here.
[01:25:23.000 -> 01:25:24.000] Thank you.
[01:25:24.000 -> 01:25:25.640] Thanks for producing such a brilliant podcast. and amazing thing to come on and tell us. Thank you, gentlemen. A pleasure to be here. Thank you.
[01:25:25.640 -> 01:25:27.800] And thanks for producing such a brilliant podcast.
[01:25:29.400 -> 01:25:30.360] Oh, listen, I really hope
[01:25:30.360 -> 01:25:31.640] that you've all enjoyed this episode.
[01:25:31.640 -> 01:25:33.200] Just a quick reminder that if you want
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[01:26:05.120 -> 01:26:07.680] to hear the messages and take the learnings.
[01:26:07.680 -> 01:26:11.640] So please continue to spread what you're taking from this podcast series.
[01:26:11.640 -> 01:26:15.680] Thank you to Finn, to Hannah, to Will, to Eve, to Gema, to everyone involved in the
[01:26:15.680 -> 01:26:16.680] podcast.
[01:26:16.680 -> 01:26:19.840] Huge thanks to Frank Lampard and everyone at Everton for their help.
[01:26:19.840 -> 01:26:21.880] But please remember, there is no secret.
[01:26:21.880 -> 01:26:23.600] It is all there for you.
[01:26:23.600 -> 01:26:29.280] So chase world-class basics. Don't get high on your own supply, remain humble, curious
[01:26:29.280 -> 01:26:30.280] and empathetic.
[01:26:30.280 -> None] And we'll see you very soon. you