Podcast: The High Performance
Published Date:
Mon, 01 Aug 2022 00:00:58 GMT
Duration:
1:05:06
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Owen O’Kane is a psychotherapist, former NHS Mental Health Lead and author of the best-selling book, How To Be Your Own Therapist. Owen grew up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, he struggled to accept his sexuality as a gay man - once even trying to be 'healed' of his homosexuality during a visit to Lourdes. He has had a varied career, from training to be a priest, to working in palliative care - this is reflected in Owen’s open and well-rounded understanding of humanity.
In this powerful episode Jake and Damian open up about their own worries, fears and negative thoughts. Owen takes them through how to tackle the noise in their mind and escape the ‘overthinking trap’. His key message is how important therapy can be and how we should all be trying to make ourselves happier.
- - - - - -
Want more from High Performance? We have launched our brand new premium podcast service 'High Performance Plus' for people who want to support the podcast, listen to ad-free episodes and have access to exclusive bonus content so we can get you even closer to a life of high performance. We'll ask our guests extra questions, just for you and keep recording when the mic stops so you will hear those slightly more intimate conversations at the end of each record. Expect more from Jake and Damian, as they'll be doing regular Q+As and bring you behind the scenes gems that you wouldn't normally get. We hope you love the extra content. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic. Sign up on Apple Podcasts apple.co/highperformance or Supercast https://highperformanceplus.supercast.com/
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Sure, here is a summary of the podcast episode:
**Title:** How to Be Your Own Therapist: A Conversation with Owen O'Kane
**Summary:**
In this episode of the High Performance Podcast, hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes welcome psychotherapist Owen O'Kane for a powerful and insightful conversation about mental health, therapy, and achieving happiness. Owen, a former NHS Mental Health Lead and author of the bestselling book "How to Be Your Own Therapist," shares his unique perspective on human psychology and offers practical advice for listeners seeking to improve their well-being.
Owen begins by emphasizing the importance of therapy, stating that most people would benefit from it. He believes that therapy is not just about talking but also about learning to understand and manage one's thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. He highlights the prevalence of negative thinking patterns and the need to reconstruct them to promote a more positive outlook on life.
Owen also addresses the common misconception that happiness is the only desirable emotional state. He explains that all emotions, including negative ones, serve a purpose and provide valuable information about our experiences. He encourages listeners to embrace their emotions, rather than trying to suppress or ignore them.
One of the key themes discussed in the episode is the idea of self-therapy. Owen believes that everyone has the potential to be their own therapist, with the right tools and guidance. He emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, self-compassion, and the ability to challenge negative thoughts and beliefs.
Owen also emphasizes the importance of seeking professional help when needed. He acknowledges that therapy may not be accessible or affordable for everyone, but he encourages listeners to explore alternative resources such as self-help books, online therapy platforms, and support groups.
Throughout the conversation, Owen emphasizes the importance of taking responsibility for one's own happiness. He encourages listeners to take an active role in their mental well-being by engaging in self-care practices, building strong relationships, and pursuing meaningful goals.
**Key Insights:**
* Therapy is not just about talking; it's about learning to understand and manage one's thoughts, emotions, and behaviors.
* Negative thinking patterns are common and can be reconstructed to promote a more positive outlook on life.
* All emotions, including negative ones, serve a purpose and provide valuable information about our experiences.
* Self-therapy is possible with the right tools and guidance, but professional help should be sought when needed.
* Taking responsibility for one's own happiness is essential for achieving high performance.
**Actionable Tips:**
* Practice self-awareness and self-compassion to better understand and manage your thoughts and emotions.
* Challenge negative thoughts and beliefs by asking yourself if there is evidence to support them.
* Engage in self-care practices such as exercise, meditation, and spending time in nature to promote your well-being.
* Build strong relationships with supportive friends and family members.
* Pursue meaningful goals that align with your values and passions.
**Additional Quotes:**
* "If you focus all the time and energy and just go on for the good stuff and the positive stuff, then you lose out all of that other stuff that's trying to help you out." - Owen O'Kane
* "I think it's a good starting point. I think most people will answer no to that. And if you're answering no to that question, then therapy will be a good thing." - Owen O'Kane
* "You crash land into adulthood and most people genuinely don't know how to manage their thoughts, particularly negative critical thinking. Most people don't know how to manage difficult emotions." - Owen O'Kane
I hope this summary is informative and helpful. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
# Podcast Episode Summary and Analysis:
## Episode Overview:
The podcast episode features a captivating conversation between Jake Humphrey, Damian Lewis, and Owen O'Kane, a psychotherapist and author. They delve into the complexities of mental health, the importance of therapy, and the intricate relationship between our minds and bodies.
## Key Themes and Insights:
1. **Embracing Negative Emotions:**
- Owen emphasizes the significance of acknowledging and accepting negative emotions rather than suppressing them.
- Negative emotions are a natural part of human experience and can serve as valuable signals for self-reflection and growth.
- Instead of pushing away these emotions, individuals should aim to understand and learn from them.
2. **The Power of Therapy:**
- Therapy is highlighted as a crucial tool for addressing mental health challenges and promoting personal growth.
- It provides a safe space for individuals to explore their thoughts, feelings, and experiences with a trained professional.
- Therapy can help individuals develop coping mechanisms, resolve past traumas, and improve their overall well-being.
3. **Quieting the Internal Noise:**
- Owen introduces the concept of "soothing systems" as a means to manage the constant chatter in our minds.
- He suggests techniques such as self-compassion, mindfulness, and perspective-taking to quieten negative thoughts and emotions.
- By learning to regulate their internal dialogue, individuals can gain greater control over their mental state.
4. **The Importance of Self-Compassion:**
- Owen emphasizes the importance of treating oneself with kindness and understanding, particularly during challenging times.
- Self-compassion involves recognizing that everyone experiences difficulties and setbacks, and that it's okay to feel vulnerable or imperfect.
- Practicing self-compassion can help individuals cope with negative emotions and foster a more positive self-image.
5. **The Mind-Body Connection:**
- Owen highlights the strong link between mental and physical health, emphasizing that they are inseparable.
- Emotional distress and psychological issues can manifest as physical symptoms, such as fatigue, headaches, and digestive problems.
- Conversely, taking care of one's physical health, such as through exercise, proper nutrition, and adequate sleep, can positively impact mental well-being.
6. **Healing Internal Wounds:**
- Owen discusses the concept of internal wounds, which are emotional injuries from past experiences that continue to affect an individual's present life.
- These wounds can stem from childhood experiences, traumatic events, or ongoing stressors.
- Therapy can help individuals identify and heal these internal wounds, leading to greater emotional resilience and overall well-being.
7. **The Role of Parents in Mental Health:**
- Owen addresses the role of parents in supporting their children's mental health, emphasizing the importance of being responsive, supportive, and validating.
- Parents should aim to create a safe and nurturing environment where children feel comfortable expressing their emotions and seeking help when needed.
- While it's important to address and process difficult experiences, parents should also focus on building their children's resilience and coping skills.
## Conclusion:
The podcast episode offers valuable insights into the complexities of mental health and the importance of seeking professional help when needed. It highlights the power of therapy in addressing emotional challenges, promoting personal growth, and fostering overall well-being. The discussion also emphasizes the importance of self-compassion, the mind-body connection, and the role of parents in supporting their children's mental health.
# **Summary: High Performance Podcast Episode Transcript with Owen O'Kane**
---
## **Episode Overview:**
In this powerful episode, Jake and Damian open up about their own worries, fears, and negative thoughts. Owen takes them through how to tackle the noise in their mind and escape the 'overthinking trap'. His key message is how important therapy can be and how we should all be trying to make ourselves happier.
---
## **Key Points:**
* **The Connection Between Body and Emotion:**
* Emotions and physical sensations are deeply intertwined.
* To address emotional issues, it's often helpful to start with the physical body.
* By focusing on bodily sensations, emotions can be accessed and processed.
* **The Importance of Perspective:**
* Life's challenges can be viewed as opportunities for growth and learning.
* Embracing the present moment and letting go of the past can lead to greater happiness.
* Keeping a sense of perspective helps maintain well-being and happiness.
* **The Power of Self-Talk:**
* The way we talk to ourselves has a significant impact on our mental and emotional well-being.
* Negative self-talk can lead to anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem.
* Cultivating a positive inner dialogue can boost confidence, resilience, and overall happiness.
* **The Value of Non-Negotiables:**
* Identifying and adhering to non-negotiables can provide a sense of structure and purpose.
* Examples of non-negotiables include prioritizing self-care, maintaining healthy relationships, and pursuing meaningful goals.
* Non-negotiables help individuals stay grounded and focused on what matters most.
* **The Importance of Legacy:**
* Legacy is about the impact one makes on the world and the lives of others.
* It's not about achievements or possessions, but about the positive contributions one makes.
* Considering one's legacy can inspire meaningful action and a sense of purpose.
* **Advice for Teenagers:**
* Social media can create unrealistic expectations and lead to negative self-comparison.
* Teenagers should be encouraged to embrace their individuality and not compare themselves to others.
* It's important to remind teenagers that they are enough just as they are.
* **The Benefits of Therapy:**
* Therapy can provide a safe space to explore and address emotional challenges.
* It can help individuals develop coping mechanisms, build resilience, and improve their overall well-being.
* Therapy can be a valuable tool for personal growth and development.
* **The Golden Rule for High-Performance:**
* Instead of seeking external validation, focus on finding internal stability and purpose.
* Trust in the process and let go of the need to control every outcome.
* The more one tries to fabricate and control, the further they may stray from what's truly right for them.
---
## **Conclusion:**
The conversation with Owen O'Kane emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, positive self-talk, and seeking support when needed. It highlights the transformative power of therapy and encourages individuals to prioritize their well-being and happiness. The episode offers valuable insights and practical strategies for achieving a high-performance mindset and living a more fulfilling life.
# Podcast Episode Summary: Overcoming Negative Thoughts and Achieving Happiness with Owen O'Kane
**Introduction**
- Owen O'Kane, a psychotherapist, former NHS Mental Health Lead, and author, joins Jake and Damian for a powerful discussion on mental health and well-being.
- Owen shares his personal journey of struggling with his sexuality and seeking healing, leading to a profound understanding of human experiences.
**Key Points**
1. **Addressing Negative Thoughts:**
- Owen emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and confronting negative thoughts rather than suppressing them.
- He suggests using a technique called "shadow work" to explore and integrate repressed emotions and thoughts.
2. **Escaping the Overthinking Trap:**
- Owen explains that overthinking often stems from a desire for control and certainty, which can lead to anxiety and unhappiness.
- He encourages listeners to practice mindfulness and meditation to quiet their minds and focus on the present moment.
3. **The Value of Therapy:**
- Owen highlights the significance of therapy in helping individuals understand their emotions, behaviors, and patterns.
- He believes that therapy can provide a safe space for self-exploration and healing, ultimately leading to personal growth and happiness.
4. **Pursuing Happiness:**
- Owen emphasizes that happiness is a choice and a skill that can be cultivated through conscious effort.
- He recommends engaging in activities that bring joy, practicing gratitude, and surrounding oneself with positive and supportive people.
**Conclusion**
- Owen's message centers around the importance of seeking professional support, practicing self-care, and actively pursuing happiness.
- He encourages listeners to embrace their emotions, challenge negative thoughts, and strive for personal growth and well-being.
[00:00.000 -> 00:06.800] Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey, and you're listening to High Performance, our gift to you for free
[00:06.800 -> 00:08.260] every single week.
[00:08.260 -> 00:11.560] Now before we go any further, can I just let you know if you don't know already that we
[00:11.560 -> 00:15.940] have launched High Performance Plus, it's our new subscription service.
[00:15.940 -> 00:19.800] And as always, if ever we're going to ask for anything from you, we are going to give
[00:19.800 -> 00:21.560] you way more in return.
[00:21.560 -> 00:26.080] So basically for the price of a couple of cups of coffee every month, you can be
[00:26.080 -> 00:31.840] a High Performance Plus subscriber. Not only will you get this podcast without ads, but you will get
[00:31.840 -> 00:36.640] so much more from us. We'll be dropping in every single week with some lessons and some learnings.
[00:36.640 -> 00:42.160] You'll hear loads of additional content from our guests. There will be monthly Q&As with myself and
[00:42.160 -> 00:46.640] Damian Hughes. It's basically a chance to get closer to High Performance than ever before,
[00:46.640 -> 00:48.960] and we get lots of messages from people saying that
[00:48.960 -> 00:52.160] they want more than just one episode a week on a Monday.
[00:52.160 -> 00:56.080] Well if you subscribe to High Performance Plus, you will have fresh
[00:56.080 -> 01:00.400] content all the time from the High Performance team. So get deeper,
[01:00.400 -> 01:04.720] get closer, get even more immersed in High Performance by subscribing
[01:04.720 -> 01:07.520] to our brand new subscription service,
[01:07.520 -> 01:09.340] High Performance Plus.
[01:09.340 -> 01:10.860] On with today's episode.
[01:10.860 -> 01:13.820] As always, this podcast is here to remind you
[01:13.820 -> 01:14.660] that it's within,
[01:14.660 -> 01:17.100] and I think this episode is going to do that
[01:17.100 -> 01:19.340] probably more than any other episode
[01:19.340 -> 01:20.860] that you've listened to.
[01:20.860 -> 01:23.780] Because we often speak to the world's greatest leaders,
[01:23.780 -> 01:28.560] thinkers, sports stars, and entrepreneurs, so that we can help turn their lived experiences
[01:29.120 -> 01:30.760] into your life lessons. Well,
[01:30.760 -> 01:33.960] today you're going to hear from a psychotherapist,
[01:34.040 -> 01:37.960] a psychotherapist who has dual medical and psychotherapy training.
[01:37.960 -> 01:41.760] He was a former clinical lead for an NHS mental health service.
[01:41.800 -> 01:44.840] And I promise you, okay, if you are suffering with stress,
[01:44.880 -> 01:49.360] if you're suffering with anxiety, if you're finding life overwhelming our
[01:49.360 -> 01:54.520] guest today has just got a unique ability to understand and to quell
[01:54.520 -> 01:59.960] those worries. Here's what's to come on today's episode of the High Performance
[01:59.960 -> 02:06.200] Podcast. If all emotions can be seen as one rather than good and bad and you can
[02:06.200 -> 02:09.880] be curious about them then you'll learn from them and you'll grow whereas
[02:09.880 -> 02:13.480] actually if you focus all the time and energy and just go on for the good stuff
[02:13.480 -> 02:16.960] and the positive stuff then you lose out all of that other stuff that's trying to
[02:16.960 -> 02:21.720] help you out. You crash land into adulthood and most people genuinely
[02:21.720 -> 02:28.200] don't know how to manage their thoughts particularly negative critical thinking most people don't know how to manage
[02:28.200 -> 02:32.720] difficult emotions they spend most of their time trying to dumb them down get
[02:32.720 -> 02:37.680] rid of them push them away I think you know for most people what I'll say is
[02:37.680 -> 02:41.720] look do you feel that you're you're as happy as you can be in your life you know
[02:41.720 -> 02:44.840] I think it's a good starting point I think most people will answer no to that
[02:44.840 -> 02:45.360] and if you're answering no to. And I think it's a good starting point. I think most people will answer no to that.
[02:45.360 -> 02:46.800] And if you're answering no to that question,
[02:46.800 -> 02:48.440] then therapy will be a good thing.
[02:49.760 -> 02:53.080] I'm incredibly excited to bring you this conversation
[02:53.080 -> 02:54.440] with Owen O'Kane.
[02:54.440 -> 02:58.800] He is an empathetic, kind, gentle soul.
[02:58.800 -> 03:00.480] And this conversation really moved me.
[03:00.480 -> 03:03.040] And here's the thing that I want to promise you, okay.
[03:03.040 -> 03:09.360] I promise you that if you listen to this and really think deeply about the things that Owen has to say, and
[03:09.360 -> 03:16.080] have an open mind, have a growth mindset and do some work on the things that he talks about,
[03:16.080 -> 03:21.680] this podcast will improve your life. We recently had a conversation with manifestation expert
[03:21.680 -> 03:26.200] Roxy Nafusi. And I think when we first interviewed Roxy or spoke about Roxy coming on the podcast,
[03:26.200 -> 03:27.400] there was a part of me that thought,
[03:27.400 -> 03:29.900] well, how's the high-performance community
[03:29.900 -> 03:32.400] going to react to someone that talks about manifestation,
[03:32.400 -> 03:33.700] which I think some people still think
[03:33.700 -> 03:36.700] is a bit woo-woo, don't they?
[03:36.700 -> 03:38.000] The reaction was incredible,
[03:38.000 -> 03:39.500] and I think it's going to be exactly the same
[03:39.500 -> 03:41.000] with Owen today.
[03:41.000 -> 03:42.100] He's got a new book out.
[03:42.100 -> 03:44.800] It's called How to Be Your Own Therapist.
[03:44.800 -> 03:45.200] But I think that you will find that this is a therapy session, and Owen will explain to you with Owen today. He's got a new book out. It's called How to Be Your Own Therapist.
[03:45.200 -> 03:49.400] But I think that you will find that this is a therapy session. And Owen will explain to
[03:49.400 -> 03:53.500] you why therapy isn't just talking. If you are having struggles, or even if you're not,
[03:53.500 -> 03:56.940] even if you think you're in a great place, you're going to really get a lot from this
[03:56.940 -> 04:02.480] conversation with Owen O'Kane. I love the direction that high performance is going.
[04:02.480 -> 04:05.520] And this is true high performance from Owen O'Kane,
[04:06.520 -> 04:09.580] right here on the High Performance Podcast.
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[06:28.000 -> 06:29.000] Well Owen, lovely to have you with us. Yeah, thanks for having me.
[06:29.000 -> 06:33.000] So, let's start then with your definition of high performance.
[06:33.000 -> 06:36.000] It's a funny one this question, because I've got two definitions offered.
[06:36.000 -> 06:41.600] So my old traditional high performance definition would have been about achieving, succeeding,
[06:41.600 -> 06:43.000] doing well, doing better.
[06:43.000 -> 06:45.760] And I think that was all driven against, you know,
[06:45.760 -> 06:48.200] growing up in a working class area,
[06:48.200 -> 06:49.640] having a pretty tough time as a kid.
[06:49.640 -> 06:52.920] So it was always about proving that I was good enough.
[06:52.920 -> 06:54.160] And I did that pretty well, you know,
[06:54.160 -> 06:56.640] I achieved, did well at school, you know,
[06:56.640 -> 06:58.600] qualified, did well in my career.
[06:58.600 -> 07:00.240] But when I look back on it now,
[07:00.240 -> 07:01.620] my definitions changed a lot.
[07:01.620 -> 07:03.960] So now I'd probably say high performance
[07:03.960 -> 07:07.920] is about doing what I do, but doing it for the right reasons.
[07:07.920 -> 07:10.200] And, you know, following what's right for me,
[07:10.200 -> 07:12.080] kind of, you know, looking at what my work is,
[07:12.080 -> 07:14.680] why I do it, what's the purpose of what I do,
[07:14.680 -> 07:16.920] but not actually seeking any validation
[07:16.920 -> 07:20.080] or not doing it to feel better or to look better.
[07:20.080 -> 07:22.160] So I think it plays out in two ways for me.
[07:22.160 -> 07:24.560] And probably the best way I can describe it is
[07:24.560 -> 07:27.000] when I'm doing what I should be doing and I feel okay about it,
[07:27.000 -> 07:29.000] I've got like an internal steady state.
[07:29.000 -> 07:33.000] I generally feel quieter and I feel good about what I'm doing,
[07:33.000 -> 07:35.000] but it's actually internal rather than external.
[07:35.000 -> 07:39.000] So for me, high performance is about if I feel internally steady,
[07:39.000 -> 07:40.000] then I'm doing my job well.
[07:40.000 -> 07:42.000] If I start falling into the trap of all the other stuff,
[07:42.000 -> 07:43.000] how well did that do?
[07:43.000 -> 07:45.120] How many books have I sold?
[07:45.600 -> 07:49.560] If my followers grow and all that rubbish then I know it's more dysfunctional.
[07:49.840 -> 07:56.600] So can you help us then with how we can avoid this constant desire as human beings for external validation?
[07:57.240 -> 07:59.120] because
[07:59.120 -> 08:03.400] It's everywhere. It's probably more common now because of social media
[08:03.400 -> 08:07.100] So we're judged all the time and with the hundreds and hundreds,
[08:07.100 -> 08:09.900] if not thousands of people that you've touched throughout your career.
[08:10.900 -> 08:14.200] What have you learned in terms of simple tricks and techniques
[08:14.200 -> 08:16.600] that our listeners to this podcast can adopt right now?
[08:16.600 -> 08:21.000] Yeah, it's an interesting one because I mean most of my clients nowadays are high performers,
[08:21.000 -> 08:23.700] you know, they've got huge profiles and the interesting thing is
[08:23.700 -> 08:28.200] if I see somebody who's a top athlete or a A-list actor,
[08:28.200 -> 08:32.600] often if they're struggling, they'll talk about feeling empty or feeling not good enough
[08:32.600 -> 08:35.200] or feeling that they still got stuff to prove.
[08:35.200 -> 08:38.200] And I guess really what you're trying to do is point out it's a bottomless pit.
[08:38.200 -> 08:42.200] So if you're continually trying to feel better or show that you're good enough
[08:42.200 -> 08:48.760] by achieving, doing more, getting the next award, getting the next win and hit, but it doesn't actually satisfy that internal
[08:48.760 -> 08:53.040] stuff, then you're moving in the wrong direction. So I think you've always got to go inward
[08:53.040 -> 08:56.680] and think, okay, why am I doing it? All the money, all the fame, all the success,
[08:56.680 -> 09:01.720] all the trappings for these high achieving individuals, they lie in that direction.
[09:01.720 -> 09:09.000] For most people, and I can say this confidently, for most people that doesn't make them happy. And in my experience, the more money people get, the more success
[09:09.000 -> 09:13.840] they get, even the more fame and stuff people get, then the more they struggle. Because
[09:13.840 -> 09:18.400] believe it or not, I mean, it's a payoff, isn't it? Because at one level you get all
[09:18.400 -> 09:22.920] this achievement and success, but then at the other level you get exposure. So the more
[09:22.920 -> 09:25.640] exposure you get, I think then the more vulnerable that you feel.
[09:25.640 -> 09:26.480] You know, not fear that,
[09:26.480 -> 09:28.960] okay, what if someone really finds me out?
[09:28.960 -> 09:31.000] Or what if they work out that I'm not feeling good enough?
[09:31.000 -> 09:33.880] So of course, people then pile effort into,
[09:33.880 -> 09:35.640] you know, to achieve and more and doing more
[09:35.640 -> 09:36.860] and being better.
[09:36.860 -> 09:39.280] So it's about, it is a bottomless pit.
[09:39.280 -> 09:41.680] So tell us a little bit then Owen, about your own journey,
[09:41.680 -> 09:44.560] because you said that you would have had
[09:44.560 -> 09:46.160] that previous definition that does fit bit than knowing about your own journey because you said that you would
[09:44.200 -> 09:48.520] have had that previous definition that does
[09:46.160 -> 09:51.480] fit the common stereotype about going
[09:48.520 -> 09:53.800] after bigger and better and bolder
[09:51.480 -> 09:55.600] things and then you've you came to that
[09:53.800 -> 09:57.080] Damascus moment that made you realize
[09:55.600 -> 09:59.080] you have to go inwards. I mean for me I
[09:57.080 -> 10:00.480] mean to sum it up in a nutshell so I
[09:59.080 -> 10:02.480] grew up in Belfast so that was all about
[10:00.480 -> 10:03.840] you know I just did a TED talk
[10:02.480 -> 10:06.360] recently and it was called bombs
[10:03.840 -> 10:06.160] bullets and bullying and a piano so I was a little you know, I just did a TED talk recently and it was called bombs, bullets and bullying and a piano.
[10:06.160 -> 10:09.440] So I was a little, you know, I played piano as a kid, but it was in working class Belfast,
[10:09.440 -> 10:11.600] got a really tough time about that.
[10:11.600 -> 10:12.600] I was also gay.
[10:12.600 -> 10:16.240] I hadn't come out obviously as a kid, but realized, you know, all our kids are clever,
[10:16.240 -> 10:18.640] you know, so they were all out kicking a football.
[10:18.640 -> 10:24.680] I was playing piano, you know, listening to show tunes, all the cliches and the kids worked
[10:24.680 -> 10:25.120] it out, so I
[10:25.120 -> 10:29.040] got a really rough time, particularly in secondary school, around being gay and stuff. And I
[10:29.040 -> 10:33.480] guess a combination of that and then growing up in Northern Ireland, very, very working
[10:33.480 -> 10:37.040] class roots, there was a whole thing about needing to prove that I was good enough. You
[10:37.040 -> 10:41.040] know, and the bottom line was I felt rubbish. Most of my teenage years I really felt, you
[10:41.040 -> 10:44.520] know, I wasn't good enough, I was less than the other kids, so I was constantly trying
[10:44.520 -> 10:45.380] to prove. In what way? So what, I wasn't good enough, I was less than the other kids, so I was constantly trying to prove.
[10:45.380 -> 10:46.380] In what way?
[10:46.380 -> 10:48.640] So what was the measures of good enough?
[10:48.640 -> 10:52.120] For me, it was just about, it wasn't even about being good enough, actually, now I said
[10:52.120 -> 10:55.920] it out loud, it was about fitting in and not being rejected, but that involved a lot of
[10:55.920 -> 10:57.220] hard work.
[10:57.220 -> 11:01.700] So then I realised that the more I stayed off radar and didn't disappoint people or
[11:01.700 -> 11:05.360] didn't let them down, and then I discovered if I achieved and I did well
[11:05.360 -> 11:08.360] and I was proven, you know, I was pretty good.
[11:08.360 -> 11:10.960] And then I kind of thought, oh, that feels a bit good.
[11:10.960 -> 11:12.600] I was keeping my family happy.
[11:12.600 -> 11:15.040] It was kind of keeping the spotlight off me a bit.
[11:15.040 -> 11:17.280] So that's where I kind of learned, OK, well,
[11:17.280 -> 11:20.960] if I can keep off radar and if I can just please people
[11:20.960 -> 11:25.160] and achieve what I can, then that's keeping me safe really.
[11:27.000 -> 11:27.760] So that was my kind of early story.
[11:31.880 -> 11:32.040] And then of course she crash landed into adulthood and you realize I'm still doing this crap.
[11:36.440 -> 11:37.120] Luckily I had a brilliant therapist in my early twenties and she was a Catholic nun.
[11:38.600 -> 11:42.640] Believe it or not, someone gave me her name. They said her name's Kathleen, but they didn't tell me she was a nun until I got there.
[11:42.640 -> 11:47.760] And I just literally come out as gay and come out of a monastery, believe it or not, I was in a monastery for three years,
[11:47.760 -> 11:48.760] training to be a priest.
[11:48.760 -> 11:50.920] And is that what led you to see a therapist?
[11:50.920 -> 11:54.760] Yeah, because I mean, I did that at the time because I wanted to do a bit of good in my
[11:54.760 -> 11:55.760] life.
[11:55.760 -> 11:59.040] In hindsight, you know, I was just about to come out, I think getting into a monastery
[11:59.040 -> 12:02.600] was an easy hideaway at that time.
[12:02.600 -> 12:05.000] So I left, came out and I made a man who said, why don't you
[12:05.000 -> 12:11.120] go and talk to your therapist, give me a name. And I get there, I was in the school and this
[12:11.120 -> 12:18.480] nun came out and she was like, oh, I'm Kathleen. And I was like, fucking hell, what am I going
[12:18.480 -> 12:20.880] to talk to a nun about? And she was brilliant.
[12:20.880 -> 12:22.360] And did you tell her you were gay?
[12:22.360 -> 12:25.080] I didn't, to be honest, I didn't go there at the beginning.
[12:25.080 -> 12:26.720] I remember going and she said to me, how are you doing?
[12:26.720 -> 12:27.560] I said, I'm good.
[12:27.560 -> 12:29.960] And I said, I think I'm okay, I'm fine.
[12:29.960 -> 12:32.480] And I kept telling her I'm fine, I'm good,
[12:32.480 -> 12:34.440] everything, it's not too bad.
[12:34.440 -> 12:35.920] And at the very end, she let me go
[12:35.920 -> 12:38.080] and I talked for about an hour.
[12:38.080 -> 12:39.120] And then at the end, she said to me,
[12:39.120 -> 12:40.920] you keep mentioning that you're fine.
[12:40.920 -> 12:42.720] And I said, yeah, I think I am.
[12:42.720 -> 12:45.960] And she said, you don't look fine to me and you don't
[12:45.960 -> 12:51.640] sound it and then I remember thinking fuck she's got me and at that moment then she said
[12:51.640 -> 12:56.200] you want to start again and then she said come back next week and then we started.
[12:56.200 -> 13:06.080] Wow, so I'm always intrigued by these moments that change the pathway that you go on and Kathleen, our sister Kathleen,
[13:06.080 -> 13:11.800] sounds like a fascinating therapist, what was it, was that your first exposure to
[13:11.800 -> 13:16.360] therapy? Yeah. Given that's what you, the pathway you went down. I didn't even
[13:16.360 -> 13:19.200] know why I was there to be honest, it was just like a mate said, look you've got a
[13:19.200 -> 13:22.240] lot of big stuff coming on here, I mean you got to put it into context as well,
[13:22.240 -> 13:29.440] so I mean I'd been in a monastery for three years, came out of the monastery and then literally was going
[13:29.440 -> 13:33.540] to come out. So, one day my parents thought they had a Pope on their hands and the next
[13:33.540 -> 13:36.100] day later I was coming out to them. So, you can imagine the transition.
[13:36.100 -> 13:40.580] Was going in the monastery kind of a final attempt to not be gay, if that makes sense?
[13:40.580 -> 13:44.220] I think it was a bit, you know, not, I mean, you know, in my early 20s, I hadn't got a
[13:44.220 -> 13:47.440] clue what I was doing. I went in, it was a bit of a hideaway, but
[13:47.440 -> 13:50.920] I think now when I look back, it was a safe option, definitely, because no one was going
[13:50.920 -> 13:55.480] to question why I was there, no one was going to question why I wouldn't get married and
[13:55.480 -> 13:59.200] stuff. Naturally, you're in a big grey building and you've got your own room and stuff, but
[13:59.200 -> 14:03.640] the work was great. You know, we did projects with drug addicts and I worked in a hospice
[14:03.640 -> 14:06.200] for a couple of years,'re writing about doing homeless projects
[14:06.200 -> 14:10.580] So the whole time you're busy and on the go doing stuff and then a bit praying in between
[14:11.040 -> 14:13.860] It almost sounds like doing loads of good stuff
[14:14.380 -> 14:18.240] To pay off for the fact that in your head you've been told there's a really bad thing lurking there
[14:18.240 -> 14:19.380] Which is your sexuality?
[14:19.380 -> 14:22.280] I think there's a good point. I mean, there's that expression. There's no wounded healer
[14:22.280 -> 14:24.280] I think people who have been through a tough time
[14:24.760 -> 14:27.920] Often find a way of thinking okay well how can
[14:27.920 -> 14:32.040] I feel better but that more importantly how can I give stuff back and I think
[14:32.040 -> 14:37.080] these days it's more about giving back than healing my own stuff. And actually
[14:37.080 -> 14:40.720] you have now lived a life of giving back you know I think your story is a
[14:40.720 -> 14:43.640] fascinating one of being told you couldn't read properly at school and now
[14:43.640 -> 14:47.720] we sit here and you're a best-selling author and you just released your third book.
[14:47.720 -> 14:53.120] You know, to go into Lourdes to be bathed in the holy waters to try and cure your sexuality.
[14:53.120 -> 15:00.160] I know that story as well. Would that have been the lowest low point? To make the effort
[15:00.160 -> 15:06.600] of a trip there because you had such a sort of, I don't know whether it's a loathing of
[15:06.600 -> 15:09.600] your sexuality or whether you had been told that it was so horrendous.
[15:09.600 -> 15:14.200] Yeah, I mean, what you're told is, I mean, as Catholics you go to somewhere like Lourdes
[15:14.200 -> 15:16.880] and you know, people believe in it so I'm not going to knock it because some people
[15:16.880 -> 15:21.720] get a lot of comfort and fear from it but I went as a volunteer and you know, people
[15:21.720 -> 15:27.000] said if you go in the water you'll be healed and stuff. So I was like early 20s and I thought, I'll give that a go.
[15:27.000 -> 15:31.000] And I went as a volunteer, did what I had to do with the volunteers.
[15:31.000 -> 15:34.000] But you queue up, basically, it's like getting into a swimming pool.
[15:34.000 -> 15:38.000] And you sit in a chair and these people then dip you into the water,
[15:38.000 -> 15:41.000] like literally immersed in water, and then you come out again.
[15:41.000 -> 15:44.000] And the day when I was queuing up to go in,
[15:44.000 -> 15:47.000] all I remember was there was these two big French blokes
[15:47.000 -> 15:49.000] who were like massive big guys,
[15:49.000 -> 15:51.000] they looked like two big rugby players.
[15:51.000 -> 15:53.000] And all I can remember is they were dipping me into water,
[15:53.000 -> 15:55.000] I just looked at these two big guys with their muscles
[15:55.000 -> 15:57.000] dipping me into water, and all I could look at
[15:57.000 -> 15:59.000] was the two blokes.
[15:59.000 -> 16:01.000] And I remember thinking, fucking hell,
[16:01.000 -> 16:05.040] I mean, if I'm looking at guys being dipped into the water
[16:05.040 -> 16:06.920] and lured, there's no hope.
[16:06.920 -> 16:10.120] You know, that's, it's a no-brainer, really.
[16:10.120 -> 16:11.560] I'm going to have to come out.
[16:11.560 -> 16:14.760] But actually, that probably was a massive turning point as well.
[16:14.760 -> 16:17.000] Because suddenly it was like, what the hell am I doing?
[16:17.000 -> 16:19.280] I mean, this is not going to convert or change me.
[16:19.280 -> 16:24.720] So that was another big turning point into thinking, right, no, I need to kind of start
[16:24.720 -> 16:29.860] accepting myself a bit more. And all of this has led to this life now of giving
[16:29.860 -> 16:34.300] back which the work that you did in the NHS and we can now talk about the books
[16:34.300 -> 16:38.820] that you've written and your new book how to be your own therapist I love that
[16:38.820 -> 16:42.320] title by the way because it feels really empowering to me. Took for it, you
[16:42.320 -> 16:46.560] know believe it or not that title took forever to get. We had loads of different titles.
[16:46.560 -> 16:48.720] And I'd finished the book,
[16:48.720 -> 16:51.120] couldn't, I mean, I probably had about four working titles
[16:51.120 -> 16:53.440] going and we were brainstorming
[16:53.440 -> 16:55.080] because the first two books had 10 in them
[16:55.080 -> 16:57.000] and we thought, well, should we have 10 in the third book?
[16:57.000 -> 16:58.440] You know how it is, you know,
[16:58.440 -> 17:00.640] people kind of think we want to market the book well.
[17:00.640 -> 17:02.360] Just couldn't get a title to work.
[17:02.360 -> 17:04.840] And we were talking one day and one of the publishers said,
[17:04.840 -> 17:05.000] well, what are you trying to do with this book? And I said, well, I couldn't get a title to work. And we were talking one day and one of the publishers said, well,
[17:05.200 -> 17:06.760] what are you trying to do with this book?
[17:06.760 -> 17:09.640] And I said, well, I believe most people would benefit therapy.
[17:09.640 -> 17:11.800] And I do believe that's a bit like having a personal trainer.
[17:11.800 -> 17:13.560] We could all do a personal trainer.
[17:13.760 -> 17:18.360] I believe most people will benefit therapy, but most people can't afford therapy
[17:18.560 -> 17:22.120] or most people are on a wait list for like two, three years to get therapy.
[17:22.320 -> 17:26.120] And I thought, well, what I want to do is
[17:23.920 -> 17:27.520] just teach people, it's not a replacement
[17:26.120 -> 17:29.760] for therapy, but I want to teach them how
[17:27.520 -> 17:31.720] they can do it, how they can become their
[17:29.760 -> 17:34.280] own therapist and that's the title came.
[17:31.720 -> 17:37.000] Because when I saw the title Owen,
[17:34.280 -> 17:38.520] I was reminded of that old saying that,
[17:37.000 -> 17:40.680] you know, cobbler's children always have
[17:38.520 -> 17:44.080] the worst shoes, therapists are often the
[17:40.680 -> 17:47.040] worst people at healing themselves. Yeah. So
[17:44.080 -> 17:45.040] it was an intriguing title. Do you are often the worst people that are
[17:41.600 -> 17:47.600] healing themselves. Yeah. So it was an
[17:45.040 -> 17:49.600] intriguing title. Do you believe that
[17:47.600 -> 17:52.040] we can all be our own therapist? 100%.
[17:49.600 -> 17:54.440] Every client I work with, I mean my
[17:52.040 -> 17:56.400] goal, session one, if you were my
[17:54.440 -> 17:58.720] client and you came to therapy, my
[17:56.400 -> 18:00.880] goal would be that by the end you don't
[17:58.720 -> 18:02.920] need me. You know, that would be the goal.
[18:00.880 -> 18:04.440] But, you know, I don't work in an
[18:02.920 -> 18:06.120] analytical way. I'm not with people for
[18:04.440 -> 18:06.800] 20 years keeping them on the couch talking and there's nothing, you know, that would be the goal. Because, you know, I don't work in an analytical way. I'm not with people for 20 years, keeping them on the couch,
[18:06.800 -> 18:09.680] talking and there's nothing, you know, some people may need longer term therapy,
[18:09.680 -> 18:14.120] but my belief is that most people know exactly what's going on for them
[18:14.120 -> 18:16.280] and they also know what they need to do.
[18:16.280 -> 18:18.400] Go back just before people come to you,
[18:18.400 -> 18:22.040] like what is it that often that triggers people to decide
[18:22.040 -> 18:23.880] that they do need to access therapy?
[18:23.880 -> 18:24.640] It's a good question.
[18:24.640 -> 18:26.000] I mean, it depends on the context.
[18:26.000 -> 18:30.000] Some people may hit a low point where they just are tired, feeling crap every day,
[18:30.000 -> 18:34.000] just feeling low or anxious all the time or just feeling lost.
[18:34.000 -> 18:37.000] Other people, it will be a family member will push them along.
[18:37.000 -> 18:41.000] I mean I've had clients literally the way for the husband will bring them to the door.
[18:41.000 -> 18:48.040] Because one school of therapy is the idea that you almost need to hit rock bottom before you can recognize there's a way up.
[18:48.040 -> 18:52.560] What do you find is the most effective catalyst for somebody to go and seek
[18:52.560 -> 18:57.720] therapy? I think you know for most people what I'll say is look, do you feel
[18:57.720 -> 19:00.760] that you're as happy as you can be in your life? You know I think it's a
[19:00.760 -> 19:04.280] good starting point. I think most people will answer no to that and if you're
[19:04.280 -> 19:05.280] answering no to that question then therapy will be a good starting point. I think most people will answer no to that. And if you're answering no to that question,
[19:05.280 -> 19:07.120] then therapy will be a good thing.
[19:07.120 -> 19:08.360] Because most people, I think,
[19:08.360 -> 19:09.840] get in the way of their own happiness.
[19:09.840 -> 19:11.480] They create obstructions,
[19:11.480 -> 19:14.360] they create blocks unconsciously a lot of the time.
[19:14.360 -> 19:15.880] And I think, you know, if you're living a life,
[19:15.880 -> 19:17.200] you feel like you're on autopilot,
[19:17.200 -> 19:18.640] you're just going through the motions,
[19:18.640 -> 19:21.840] or you're feeling dissatisfied or unhappy all the time,
[19:21.840 -> 19:24.760] you know, either read the book or, you know, start therapy,
[19:24.760 -> 19:28.880] because you need to understand why you're doing that and why you're kind of existing
[19:28.880 -> 19:30.320] rather than fully living.
[19:30.320 -> 19:36.320] So take us into your therapy room then. So for people listening to this that may be sceptical
[19:36.320 -> 19:41.360] about therapy or maybe they've grown up not ever having contemplated it, I'm interested
[19:41.360 -> 19:49.800] in what steps they could take to do that. So once they've answered the question of I'm not as happy as I could be on as frequently as I would
[19:49.800 -> 19:55.600] want, when they come into your therapy room what's the first question you'd pose
[19:55.600 -> 19:59.280] them? Normally when people come in, I mean you want to keep it, I mean often people
[19:59.280 -> 20:03.000] come to therapy and they come with a whole load of notions about what it's
[20:03.000 -> 20:05.000] going to be like. So I think they're often a bit shocked.
[20:05.000 -> 20:09.000] I normally keep it really low key, very down to earth, quite open and chatty at first.
[20:09.000 -> 20:13.000] And I think they're normally surprised that it's quite a chilled process.
[20:13.000 -> 20:15.000] You don't want to frighten people off.
[20:15.000 -> 20:16.000] So it's just a normal conversation.
[20:16.000 -> 20:19.000] And then I'll often start by saying, what brings you here?
[20:19.000 -> 20:21.000] You know, how do you think I can help?
[20:21.000 -> 20:24.000] And then that normally gets the story running.
[20:24.000 -> 20:28.200] Now, probably for most people that will come along and say,
[20:28.200 -> 20:30.920] I'm just thinking of a couple of clients, but people will often come and say,
[20:31.120 -> 20:35.880] I want to be more confident or I want to help with public speaking or,
[20:36.080 -> 20:38.200] you know, numerous examples.
[20:38.400 -> 20:41.880] I just want to feel better or I want to be a better dad or whatever the context might
[20:42.080 -> 20:45.640] be, and they'll start with a polite version of the story.
[20:45.840 -> 20:49.400] And then you get to session three and the real stuff comes.
[20:49.600 -> 20:53.280] So, I mean, what they come with and what they deliver,
[20:53.480 -> 20:56.440] you know, two, three sessions in is normally a very, very different story.
[20:56.640 -> 20:58.960] But it's my job to kind of, you know,
[20:59.160 -> 21:02.320] dissect the important stuff and listen really carefully because, you know,
[21:02.520 -> 21:08.320] we all do. I mean, we're trained almost, we're hardwired to deliver the kind of polished
[21:08.320 -> 21:12.640] version of who we are. That's you know as human beings we're all delivering the
[21:12.640 -> 21:17.820] version that we want people to see and I guess therapy is almost like stripping
[21:17.820 -> 21:22.000] off naked and saying I'm not interested in the perfection. So do you know I'd
[21:22.000 -> 21:24.720] like to do because there'll be a lot of people listening to this and some of
[21:24.720 -> 21:26.160] them will be listening thinking this is great
[21:26.160 -> 21:28.000] because I was thinking I need a bit of therapy.
[21:28.000 -> 21:29.320] There'll be other people listening,
[21:29.320 -> 21:31.440] feeling bulletproof and perfect and life's great.
[21:31.440 -> 21:33.560] And it's very difficult for us.
[21:33.560 -> 21:34.800] You know, we can't provide therapy
[21:34.800 -> 21:36.760] for the millions that listen to these podcasts.
[21:36.760 -> 21:37.960] They're all from different walks of life.
[21:37.960 -> 21:40.720] But I know we can have a really good conversation
[21:40.720 -> 21:41.960] for the next 30 minutes or so
[21:41.960 -> 21:44.840] about the key things for people to consider
[21:44.840 -> 21:48.280] to find more happiness, to get themselves closer to high performance.
[21:48.280 -> 21:51.320] So what do you think is the most important way for us to start this
[21:51.320 -> 21:55.280] discussion? I think if you think about it practically, I mean we all have a brain
[21:55.280 -> 22:00.360] in our head and that's you know that's our thoughts and how we behave
[22:00.360 -> 22:07.400] and our emotional state as well. So the reality is for most people, you crash land into adulthood and most people
[22:07.600 -> 22:12.360] genuinely don't know how to manage their thoughts, particularly negative, critical
[22:12.360 -> 22:15.600] thinking. Most people don't know how to manage difficult emotions.
[22:15.800 -> 22:19.600] They spend most of their time trying to dumb them down, get rid of them, push them
[22:19.800 -> 22:23.240] away, and most people struggle with behaviours that get in the way.
[22:23.440 -> 22:26.000] So I guess really where I start with most people is,
[22:26.000 -> 22:29.000] okay, let's look at how you're managing all of these parts of your life.
[22:29.000 -> 22:33.000] So to give you a bit of context, you've got about 80,000 thoughts a day on average.
[22:33.000 -> 22:35.000] That's what neuroscientists tell us.
[22:35.000 -> 22:39.000] And about 60% of those are negative in nature, negative or critical.
[22:39.000 -> 22:41.000] And that's a lot of, if you think about that,
[22:41.000 -> 22:48.080] that's a lot of negative thinking for a human being to carry around in one day. But most people get caught into patterns where they just
[22:48.080 -> 22:53.840] habitually think, well this is just me, I'm a worrier, or I'm self-critical, or I
[22:53.840 -> 22:58.520] doubt myself, or I see lay for people as just a bit bleak and dark all of the
[22:58.520 -> 23:02.000] time. So your first job really is to help people reconstruct the way they're
[23:02.000 -> 23:08.960] thinking and help them to see that these are just patterns. And most of, you know, like 90% of what we worry about won't
[23:08.960 -> 23:15.120] come to anything. But if you look at the amount of time people spend worrying in their life,
[23:15.120 -> 23:16.120] it's a lot of wasted time.
[23:16.120 -> 23:21.440] So how do we start then by removing the negative and finding the positive? What's the, what
[23:21.440 -> 23:23.240] would you like people to do next listening to this?
[23:23.240 -> 23:26.280] Well, it's a good way you phrase that question because I see it differently.
[23:26.280 -> 23:30.880] It's never about removing the negative or just replacing it with a positive
[23:30.880 -> 23:34.340] because the bottom line is life is always going to be both. You know it
[23:34.340 -> 23:38.820] can't be, can't be positive all the time and with emotions for example I mean we
[23:38.820 -> 23:44.160] all gravitate towards wanting to feel happy, joyful, successful, peaceful. That's
[23:44.160 -> 23:45.600] that's the emotions that we like.
[23:45.600 -> 23:47.120] But when it comes to the darker stuff,
[23:47.120 -> 23:49.880] when we feel fearful, anxious, low,
[23:49.880 -> 23:52.360] we try and push those emotions down.
[23:52.360 -> 23:53.360] Where my argument would be,
[23:53.360 -> 23:55.560] well, actually those emotions are trying to help you out.
[23:55.560 -> 23:57.840] They're a part of normal human experience.
[23:57.840 -> 23:59.680] So all of the negative emotions,
[23:59.680 -> 24:02.560] say for example, Jake, you were having a really rough day
[24:02.560 -> 24:03.680] and you were feeling flat
[24:03.680 -> 24:07.600] and you were feeling a bit demotivated and, you know, there was stuff going on for you.
[24:07.800 -> 24:10.480] Well, your instinct may be, I don't want to feel this way.
[24:10.680 -> 24:12.960] So you may go off and do something to try and push through.
[24:12.960 -> 24:13.600] I'd probably go to the gym.
[24:13.640 -> 24:15.400] Go to the gym or do something to burn out.
[24:15.600 -> 24:17.040] But here would be my question.
[24:17.040 -> 24:20.080] Well, what if that emotion is trying to communicate something?
[24:20.280 -> 24:22.200] What if it's trying to slow you down?
[24:22.400 -> 24:24.360] What if it's trying to get you to re-evaluate?
[24:24.560 -> 24:27.080] What if it's trying to get you to look at your life in a different way?
[24:27.280 -> 24:30.560] So often it's about don't run away from the darker stuff.
[24:30.760 -> 24:33.560] It's not going to harm you. It's not going to do anything terrible.
[24:33.760 -> 24:39.240] Maybe it's trying to communicate something about change or how you can become a better
[24:39.440 -> 24:42.120] human being or even from a performance point of view.
[24:42.120 -> 24:43.840] How do you perform higher?
[24:43.880 -> 24:46.000] The darker stuff will help you do that.
[24:46.000 -> 24:50.000] If all emotions can be seen as one, rather than good and bad,
[24:50.000 -> 24:54.000] and you can be curious about them, then you'll learn from them, and you'll grow.
[24:54.000 -> 24:57.000] Whereas, actually, if you focus all the time on energy
[24:57.000 -> 24:59.000] and just go in for the good stuff and the positive stuff,
[24:59.000 -> 25:02.000] then you lose out all of that other stuff that's trying to help you out.
[25:02.000 -> 25:04.000] And I see that a lot in therapy.
[25:04.000 -> 25:07.600] There are three mechanisms called threat, drive, and soothe
[25:07.600 -> 25:09.280] that we're all driven by.
[25:09.280 -> 25:13.080] So threat mechanism is literally your anxious brain.
[25:13.080 -> 25:15.680] It's trying to protect you, trying to keep you safe.
[25:15.680 -> 25:18.840] Drive mechanism is about succeeding, achieving,
[25:18.840 -> 25:20.320] doing more, being better.
[25:20.320 -> 25:21.440] So they're not bad things.
[25:21.440 -> 25:24.040] So a threat mechanism is helpful, it'll keep you safe.
[25:24.040 -> 25:27.000] A drive mechanism is really, really useful because it can push us forward.
[25:27.000 -> 25:32.000] But the other mechanism, soothing, is where we learn to quieten the internal stuff.
[25:32.000 -> 25:35.000] You know, how we self-soothe, how we manage emotions,
[25:35.000 -> 25:38.000] how we talk ourselves down when we're struggling.
[25:38.000 -> 25:43.000] So most people, probably 95%, have no idea how to self-soothe.
[25:43.000 -> 25:45.440] So is there techniques that you can
[25:49.440 -> 25:51.340] Speak about with us that would help people with that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean can either of you I mean, I don't know if it's putting you guys on the spot
[25:51.340 -> 25:56.600] But could you give me an example of a tough day you've had recently or a tough moment that you found hard to manage?
[25:57.840 -> 26:03.860] My dad passed away in February. Sorry about that this year. So in January this year, so
[26:04.720 -> 26:05.760] There's been days
[26:05.760 -> 26:11.560] sort of trying to wrestle with sort of the sense of pointlessness, you know, like
[26:11.560 -> 26:16.640] I'm conscious that I'm in a grief cycle, so there might be times where you're sort of
[26:16.640 -> 26:22.080] feeling angry or irritable about what's going on around you. In your darker
[26:22.080 -> 26:32.600] moments and in the worst moments, what's that kind of internal voice towards yourself like when you're having a tough day? I can't be bothered,
[26:32.600 -> 26:39.280] what's the point? This is all futile anyway. So that sense of everything feeling a bit
[26:39.280 -> 26:45.040] pointless. So what do you do? How do you treat yourself in those days? How do you manage that?
[26:50.800 -> 26:54.320] I tend to push myself a little bit harder and sort of like just get through it, just greet you safe and just get through it. But is there a part of you telling yourself that you shouldn't
[26:54.320 -> 26:57.440] be feeling that way or is there part of you thinking that I should be feeling different
[26:57.440 -> 27:06.920] or I should be feeling better? Yeah, there's a little bit. I think it's, I think a little voice can sometimes be a
[27:06.920 -> 27:10.920] bit cruel in terms of just man up, get on with it, crack on.
[27:10.920 -> 27:15.920] Okay, so let me put it a different way, you know, you and Jake are mates. If Jake were
[27:15.920 -> 27:19.920] going through that and you met up, you guys went to the pub and he had said he was really
[27:19.920 -> 27:24.400] struggling and feeling a bit flat and things felt a bit pointless, would you use that same
[27:24.400 -> 27:29.360] tone towards him if he was struggling? No. Why wouldn't you do that?
[27:29.360 -> 27:34.440] Because I can recognise the cruelty of it and the lack of empathy and just
[27:34.440 -> 27:39.400] being pretty unpleasant. Yeah and that's it in a nutshell for most people. You
[27:39.400 -> 27:41.720] know what you've described, you know you've lost your dad, you've been
[27:41.720 -> 27:44.800] through a really tough time, it's the headiest period when you lose a parent.
[27:44.800 -> 27:45.000] You know what you need during that period, you've been through a really tough time. It's the headiest period when you lose a parent.
[27:45.000 -> 27:49.000] You know, what you need during that period is a bit of compassion and a bit of kindness
[27:49.000 -> 27:53.000] and looking after yourself, but what you're describing is doing the opposite.
[27:53.000 -> 27:56.000] And I think people don't realise they fall into that trap, you know,
[27:56.000 -> 27:58.000] because you wouldn't do it to your mate.
[27:58.000 -> 28:01.000] You'd probably go along and say, right, come on, I'm going to take you out.
[28:01.000 -> 28:03.000] You'll get through this. There'd be a lot of...
[28:03.000 -> 28:07.880] But Damien's a professor, right? Yeah. He's's a smart bloke he understands the human brain yeah he's
[28:07.880 -> 28:13.040] full of compassion and empathy and understanding and is inquisitive so two
[28:13.040 -> 28:16.560] questions from me a why is his brain done that because there'll be a lot of
[28:16.560 -> 28:21.600] people listening that can relate to it yeah and the second one it's like I
[28:21.600 -> 28:25.280] don't want this to sound harsh why has he not done something about it do you know what I mean like he literally sat here and said I know it's like I don't want this to sound harsh why has he not done something about
[28:25.280 -> 28:28.880] it do you know what I mean like he literally sat here and said I know it's
[28:28.880 -> 28:32.920] unfair and unkind and cruel and and though and again there'll be listeners
[28:32.920 -> 28:36.760] to this podcast who are chasing the high-performance dream whilst constantly
[28:36.760 -> 28:42.520] being horrible to themselves yeah why do we not solve it it's a brilliant point
[28:42.520 -> 28:45.960] and thank you for being honest about that because it's a really tough thing to do that.
[28:45.960 -> 28:49.480] Particularly, I think, you know, you're an academic and you're a professor and you understand
[28:49.480 -> 28:50.480] the human mind.
[28:50.480 -> 28:53.280] I think it's really hard when you're a professional and you're on the top.
[28:53.280 -> 28:54.560] And we're not immune to this stuff.
[28:54.560 -> 28:57.000] You know, we can struggle like anybody else.
[28:57.000 -> 29:00.720] But I think what you've described brilliantly there is that we're hardwired.
[29:00.720 -> 29:04.860] This is why when I talk about soothing systems, people don't know how to operate them.
[29:04.860 -> 29:08.560] Most of us haven't been taught how to self-soothe. You know, most
[29:08.560 -> 29:12.480] of us come from families or culture where it is about man up, get on with it,
[29:12.480 -> 29:16.560] be grateful. You know, particularly we're men, I mean, I know a lot of blokes
[29:16.560 -> 29:20.160] listen to the podcast. There is just a strong message out there constantly
[29:20.160 -> 29:25.040] about, you know, just get on with it, you'll be okay. Try not to feel too much.
[29:27.280 -> 29:27.480] And depending on what the message has been,
[29:32.080 -> 29:32.280] often we are taught to either protect ourselves, which is why the threat drive
[29:36.280 -> 29:37.560] kicks in, you know, get yourself through this, get on with it, come on, hurry up. You should be feeling better by now.
[29:37.560 -> 29:40.080] So your threat drive is telling you to recover quickly.
[29:40.280 -> 29:43.680] Your drive might be saying, OK, how can I get away from these feelings?
[29:43.680 -> 29:44.960] How will I distract myself?
[29:44.960 -> 29:47.500] Maybe I'll take on a new project, maybe I'll not think about it.
[29:47.500 -> 29:51.400] But that other part which is going, okay, what about just looking after yourself?
[29:51.400 -> 29:54.200] What about, you know, if you think about your grief in itself,
[29:54.200 -> 29:57.800] what about going to your grief and saying, okay, I'm going to look after you.
[29:57.800 -> 29:59.700] I'm going to make sure we can through this together.
[29:59.700 -> 30:02.900] You know, asking yourself that question, all right, what do you need?
[30:02.900 -> 30:04.500] You know, what would help at the minute?
[30:04.500 -> 30:06.320] So it's almost like you start, therapy is that question, all right, what do you need? You know, what would help at the minute? So it's almost like you start therapies
[30:06.320 -> 30:08.320] or learning to dialogue with yourself
[30:08.320 -> 30:10.120] and have that conversation about, okay,
[30:10.120 -> 30:11.520] what do we need today?
[30:11.520 -> 30:12.360] What would help?
[30:12.360 -> 30:13.480] What would make it easier?
[30:13.480 -> 30:15.160] Well, I think there's something particularly powerful
[30:15.160 -> 30:17.440] that you said there about,
[30:17.440 -> 30:20.240] if that the third person element of
[30:20.240 -> 30:21.920] when you introduced Jake into it and said,
[30:21.920 -> 30:24.120] if we were sat in the pub having a chat,
[30:24.120 -> 30:24.940] how would you feel?
[30:24.940 -> 30:26.640] So would you explain about that technique
[30:26.640 -> 30:29.040] that I think is quite powerful?
[30:29.040 -> 30:31.360] I think that's the thing is, I mean, people,
[30:31.360 -> 30:32.880] when it comes to our minds,
[30:32.880 -> 30:35.080] you know, and you'll know this from your work,
[30:35.080 -> 30:38.120] I mean, our thoughts are not a fact.
[30:38.120 -> 30:40.880] You know, all of this stuff that we spiel out every day,
[30:40.880 -> 30:43.360] I mean, most of it's just rubbish
[30:43.360 -> 30:46.640] and it's just regenerated patterns that of play over and over and over again.
[30:46.840 -> 30:49.600] But the stuff like, you know, the internal voice saying you're weak,
[30:49.600 -> 30:52.480] you're pathetic, you're rubbish, you're shit, you're not good enough.
[30:52.680 -> 30:56.240] We tend to gravitate to that stuff like magnets,
[30:56.440 -> 30:59.960] because we may have heard it before somewhere along the line and we kind of
[30:59.960 -> 31:01.480] tend to hold on to that stuff.
[31:01.680 -> 31:05.400] So we kind of get attracted to it because we think, could that be true? So we start to then link and engage with it. And then the minute snowballs and then suddenly you're overwhelmed with just this avalanche of negative thoughts.
[31:05.400 -> 31:09.000] So it's about learning that skill of standing back.
[31:09.000 -> 31:11.000] Can you start to think about the thought?
[31:11.000 -> 31:13.000] Can you start to think about the thought?
[31:13.000 -> 31:15.000] And then you start to think about the thought.
[31:15.000 -> 31:17.000] And then you start to think about the thought.
[31:17.000 -> 31:19.000] And then you start to think about the thought.
[31:19.000 -> 31:21.000] And then you start to think about the thought.
[31:21.000 -> 31:23.000] And then you start to think about the thought.
[31:23.000 -> 31:29.960] And then you start to think about, you know, can you start
[31:29.960 -> 31:35.440] to observe it all just as noise that plays out and then almost begin to watch or thinking
[31:35.440 -> 31:39.680] oh here's my critic again or here's my, I'll give you a personal example actually, I did
[31:39.680 -> 31:47.800] a TED talk last weekend and it was a theatre event in London and you get the usual jitters before you go on to your stage. You know, there was loads of people
[31:47.800 -> 31:51.240] there and there's a lot of pressure and I was playing a piano as well. I mean,
[31:51.240 -> 31:55.200] don't even ask me why I did that. It was called bombs, bullets, bullying in a piano
[31:55.200 -> 31:59.680] and I decided to talk about playing the piano and how it helped me and did this
[31:59.680 -> 32:03.320] talk about the relationship between music and psychology and it went really
[32:03.320 -> 32:06.760] well in the end but literally moments before I went on,
[32:06.760 -> 32:08.960] was all set up, I did all the breathing stuff,
[32:08.960 -> 32:10.680] you know, did all the ground and stuff,
[32:10.680 -> 32:12.040] knew the talk inside out,
[32:12.040 -> 32:13.800] and just 30 seconds before I went on,
[32:13.800 -> 32:16.880] I could start to feel that, you know, the heart beating.
[32:16.880 -> 32:18.800] I thought, okay, this is all right, I can work with this.
[32:18.800 -> 32:21.680] And then suddenly I start to hear the,
[32:21.680 -> 32:23.240] what if this is not good enough?
[32:23.240 -> 32:24.360] Was that the threat system?
[32:24.360 -> 32:25.280] Yeah. Yeah. What if this is not good enough? Was that the threat system? Yeah.
[32:25.280 -> 32:26.120] Yeah.
[32:26.120 -> 32:27.800] What if this is not good enough?
[32:27.800 -> 32:29.320] What if they're not interested?
[32:29.320 -> 32:30.160] What if I forget?
[32:30.160 -> 32:34.000] And then this whole series of what if started to kick in.
[32:34.000 -> 32:35.760] Then the other system then kicks in,
[32:35.760 -> 32:37.280] drive then kicks in,
[32:37.280 -> 32:39.640] starting to tell me that it's gotta be good.
[32:39.640 -> 32:42.240] It's gotta be the best, can't let myself down.
[32:42.240 -> 32:44.280] My team are here, the manager is here,
[32:44.280 -> 32:49.200] there's all of these people here. So that drive system starts to kick in. But
[32:49.200 -> 32:52.600] thankfully, I guess, you know, from my own story and from my line of work, I
[32:52.600 -> 32:56.040] realised straight away that both systems have kicked in and they're really
[32:56.040 -> 32:59.360] over activated. So it's just about quickly thinking, right, not helpful at
[32:59.360 -> 33:02.640] the moment. I can see them for what they are, but I'll go for the old soothing
[33:02.640 -> 33:06.320] system at the minute, which is, it's almost like taking yourself by the hand really and saying,
[33:06.320 -> 33:09.760] come on, we can do this. Still to come on
[33:09.760 -> 33:13.080] this conversation with Owen O'Kane. If
[33:13.080 -> 33:14.920] you go to a graveyard, you will never on
[33:14.920 -> 33:18.000] any tombstone see, oh such-and-such died,
[33:18.000 -> 33:21.200] they had a degree, you know, they won a
[33:21.200 -> 33:23.800] BAFTA, you know, they had X amount of
[33:23.800 -> 33:28.800] money in the bank, you just don't, you don't, you'll see, you'll just say, beloved father, beloved son, whatever.
[33:28.800 -> 33:30.400] It's all about relationships.
[33:30.400 -> 33:34.800] I mean, I can be working with an A-lister actor,
[33:34.800 -> 33:40.400] and I do work with a lot of people with huge careers who have achieved, you know, incredible success in their lives.
[33:40.400 -> 33:42.000] And they have everything.
[33:42.000 -> 33:45.160] And I sit down with them them and they describe this just core
[33:45.160 -> 33:51.200] dissatisfaction.
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[36:01.600 -> 36:06.720] Give us an example then on how you give yourself that sense of perspective.
[36:06.720 -> 36:10.640] Most people get saturated in the moment, they get saturated in the thoughts and the emotion
[36:10.640 -> 36:12.560] and suddenly they become all consuming.
[36:12.560 -> 36:16.840] So it's often about, you know, the minute you start to feel a change in thought, change
[36:16.840 -> 36:20.280] in the body, change in emotion, it's about being able to think, okay, I've moved into
[36:20.280 -> 36:21.800] a different state.
[36:21.800 -> 36:23.840] So what I'm going to do is I'm going to stop.
[36:23.840 -> 36:29.440] And instead of getting over involved, and it's almost like I often describe to clients like taking a helicopter. So what you're
[36:29.440 -> 36:35.280] aiming to do is you're almost going to helicopter back and look at yourself and think okay I know
[36:35.280 -> 36:41.680] what's going on at the minute. I've fallen into overthinking. I'm trying to calm this down. I'm
[36:41.680 -> 36:46.800] trying to get away from this. I'm trying to numb it and then you can see it for what it is and then you get less involved and think, alright
[36:46.800 -> 36:49.480] I know what to do, I'm gonna go a different direction here, so it's all
[36:49.480 -> 36:53.680] about, for me anyway, it's about how do you quieten the noise in your mind.
[36:53.680 -> 36:57.440] This is a really interesting conversation for me to listen into
[36:57.440 -> 37:03.240] because years ago I went through a short period of therapy when I was about, as I
[37:03.240 -> 37:09.140] think a lot of men in their late teens are I moved to London moved away from my parents I just felt a
[37:09.140 -> 37:12.720] bit alone everything I've got a job on the telly it was just overwhelming
[37:12.720 -> 37:17.180] pressure and I was just convinced that I was mad basically so I went to see a
[37:17.180 -> 37:20.820] therapist and she basically just said to me hey it's your brain playing a trick
[37:20.820 -> 37:26.320] yeah it's just a trick so don't believe the trick also, it might be that you just have to live with
[37:26.600 -> 37:31.500] what you call invasive thoughts. And once you accept you might have to live with invasive thoughts, that you'll find they'll go.
[37:31.500 -> 37:33.500] And it was the best bit of advice ever.
[37:33.500 -> 37:39.160] And throughout my TV career, because I have to obviously regularly deal with going on air in 30 seconds,
[37:39.160 -> 37:42.200] you know, big moments, big games, lots of pressure.
[37:42.680 -> 37:46.400] I've become really good at knowing
[37:46.400 -> 37:49.840] when things are kicking in and I'm able just to take a breath
[37:49.840 -> 37:53.580] about five seconds before I go on air, I take a deep breath and I'm totally
[37:53.580 -> 37:57.320] relaxed and I have this great mindset of, you know, I'm meant to be here
[37:57.320 -> 38:00.560] because I failed my A-levels and got a job in telly.
[38:00.560 -> 38:02.200] That I can deal with.
[38:02.200 -> 38:03.360] However,
[38:03.360 -> 38:05.320] and I think a lot of our listeners will maybe relate
[38:05.320 -> 38:09.720] to this, right? My life has never been more successful and I don't say that in
[38:09.720 -> 38:14.280] an arrogant way, but you know I have a company with about almost 300 staff
[38:14.280 -> 38:17.560] turning over tens of millions of pounds. I've got this podcast that is an
[38:17.560 -> 38:21.120] absolute passion project and I love doing it and having the conversations. My TV
[38:21.120 -> 38:23.840] presenting career, I'm doing the Champions League, that's the biggest
[38:23.840 -> 38:25.040] games of football in the country
[38:25.560 -> 38:27.560] Got two kids got an amazing wife
[38:28.800 -> 38:30.800] Beautiful house don't want for anything
[38:31.360 -> 38:33.360] Never been less happy
[38:33.720 -> 38:37.480] Interesting, but not in a kind of like woe is me and I don't walk around
[38:38.480 -> 38:41.960] Feeling sad. I don't feel sad. I feel fine
[38:42.480 -> 38:46.760] But I have this overwhelming sense that there's so much to be done
[38:46.760 -> 38:50.960] and it is so exciting and so big and so grand and so incredible.
[38:50.960 -> 38:52.960] If you've listened to Hamilton, he sings that song,
[38:52.960 -> 38:54.760] There's a Million Things I Haven't Done.
[38:54.760 -> 38:57.760] I wake up every day with this overwhelming sense
[38:57.760 -> 38:59.320] that there's a million things I haven't done,
[38:59.320 -> 39:01.560] I haven't made my mark, I haven't made my impact,
[39:01.560 -> 39:04.560] I haven't driven hard enough, I haven't reached enough people,
[39:04.560 -> 39:06.020] I haven't got to where I need to get to
[39:06.540 -> 39:10.740] And I think of when I bought my first car which was an MGF and I spent 11 grand on that car
[39:11.620 -> 39:17.280] I've never been happier. But when I took out a loan for nine grand scraped together a couple of K and bought this car
[39:17.280 -> 39:20.960] Yeah, and I would I yearn to get back to that place
[39:21.620 -> 39:24.180] but I kind of feel like a brilliant I mean
[39:24.180 -> 39:25.320] I don't know how to get away from this
[39:25.320 -> 39:29.680] place because I can't just walk away from all this. I know I'd be unhappy if I did.
[39:29.680 -> 39:31.920] So how do I find my happiness again?
[39:31.920 -> 39:35.200] I mean, it's a brilliant point. And again, it's a really honour. I mean, these things
[39:35.200 -> 39:39.040] are not easy to say out loud, you know, and people are listening in to the story. But
[39:39.040 -> 39:42.680] I think that's incredibly truthful. And I see that all the time. I mean, I can be working
[39:42.680 -> 39:47.040] with an A-lister actor and I do work with a lot of people
[39:47.240 -> 39:51.280] with huge careers who've achieved, you know, incredible success in their lives
[39:51.480 -> 39:54.560] and they have everything, you know, a bit like what you've just described,
[39:54.760 -> 39:57.840] you know, incredible success, you know, stuff that most people would
[39:58.040 -> 40:00.600] would kill for, you know, to get that level of success.
[40:00.800 -> 40:02.560] I see this every day in clinical practice
[40:02.560 -> 40:07.500] where people have just got phenomenal success and I sit down with them and they describe this just core
[40:07.500 -> 40:11.760] dissatisfaction. And my simple answer to all of that is then what you haven't
[40:11.760 -> 40:16.180] attended to probably above everything is the internal wound, which I think we all
[40:16.180 -> 40:19.820] carry. We're all walking around with internal wounds about are we good enough,
[40:19.820 -> 40:24.060] are we lovable, you know, are we powerless, you know, stuff happens in all of our
[40:24.060 -> 40:26.560] lives that, you know, you know, I believe that there's nothing Are we lovable? Are we powerless? Stuff happens in all of our lives.
[40:26.560 -> 40:30.600] I believe that there's nothing wrong with most people, to be quite honest.
[40:30.600 -> 40:36.200] I believe stuff happens to people and then they suddenly start to act out or play out.
[40:36.200 -> 40:41.640] And they're working hard to try and almost cool or calm down this wound that they've
[40:41.640 -> 40:42.640] got.
[40:42.640 -> 40:46.680] But often then that becomes about, okay, well, maybe if I achieve a bit more,
[40:46.680 -> 40:49.520] maybe if I get to that point, then I'll be happy.
[40:49.520 -> 40:52.240] And of course, we know that it just doesn't happen.
[40:52.240 -> 40:53.880] And I guess it was my point at the beginning
[40:53.880 -> 40:55.600] about high performance.
[40:55.600 -> 40:57.960] You know, there are two ways, and we all do it.
[40:57.960 -> 41:01.480] I mean, Christ, I know that when I fall into that trap of,
[41:01.480 -> 41:03.600] you know, okay, well, I do another book.
[41:04.520 -> 41:05.160] God, I hope that does as well. You start to, you know, okay,
[41:02.600 -> 41:06.800] well, I do another book, got to, you know,
[41:05.160 -> 41:08.760] hope that does as well. You start to, you
[41:06.800 -> 41:10.760] know, you just feel that mood, and I can
[41:08.760 -> 41:13.640] almost feel it on my skin. When I move
[41:10.760 -> 41:15.600] into a more dysfunctional, comparing,
[41:13.640 -> 41:17.440] is it good enough, should I be better, all
[41:15.600 -> 41:20.880] of that stuff, I just start to feel it's
[41:17.440 -> 41:22.680] toxic. So, so for people then that have
[41:20.880 -> 41:24.320] heard that and don't feel like they're
[41:22.680 -> 41:26.240] wounded, like I would say I don't really
[41:24.320 -> 41:28.280] feel like I'm wounded, I would say I don't really feel like I'm wounded I mean I do feel like all the bad stuff
[41:28.280 -> 41:32.240] that's happened to me has been great like I often say my grandma committed
[41:32.240 -> 41:35.680] suicide I was bullied at school I changed schools I got fired from my job
[41:35.680 -> 41:40.340] I get daily abuse across social media but I look at all those things and I use
[41:40.340 -> 41:43.160] the phrase what just because something is hard for me doesn't mean it's bad for
[41:43.160 -> 41:50.000] me okay I see it as a resilience building. Okay, let me ask you a question a different way then. Do you ever have moments when you?
[41:51.040 -> 41:53.320] It's maybe a bit exposing but hope you don't mind me asking
[41:53.480 -> 41:57.200] Do you ever have moments when you that can acquired voice in the background?
[41:57.800 -> 42:01.600] Whispers, do you think you're good enough to do this? Yeah
[42:01.600 -> 42:02.040] well
[42:02.040 -> 42:09.960] Then you're wounded because I think what we do is when we carry these kind of self-doubts, self-questionings, the wanderings or the self-attacking that
[42:09.960 -> 42:14.360] you described earlier, you know, not being kind to yourselves, more than often in everyday
[42:14.360 -> 42:18.640] life when they're playing out, they're playing out because of an old wound that hasn't been
[42:18.640 -> 42:23.120] processed or dealt with. And I think really that is the crux of therapy. It's about, you
[42:23.120 -> 42:26.320] know, I talk in the book about telling the story and, you know,
[42:26.320 -> 42:29.520] telling your story properly and then being able to match together
[42:29.520 -> 42:34.400] how your story explains who you are today and why you might struggle today.
[42:34.400 -> 42:38.720] And I think what most of us do is we just play out our everyday life
[42:38.720 -> 42:41.520] by getting on, doing stuff, achieving more, being better,
[42:41.520 -> 42:43.680] all the stuff that we all fall into a trap of doing,
[42:43.680 -> 42:46.240] but we're doing it because we're trying to heal the stuff that we all fall into a trap of doing, but we're doing it because we're
[42:44.960 -> 42:48.720] trying to heal the stuff that we've
[42:46.240 -> 42:50.800] never dealt with. I think for most
[42:48.720 -> 42:53.200] people, good therapy will be that you
[42:50.800 -> 42:54.480] discover some of that stuff, but there's
[42:53.200 -> 42:56.720] still part of you believes you're not good
[42:54.480 -> 42:58.240] enough. How do you help people to solve
[42:56.720 -> 42:59.920] that? Well, that's what, you know, this is
[42:58.240 -> 43:01.440] kind of, this is the nature of the work,
[42:59.920 -> 43:03.520] because you get, you know, you get people to
[43:01.440 -> 43:05.040] sit down, tell the story, you know, as
[43:03.520 -> 43:06.560] I said earlier, they'll tell you the nice version of the beginning.
[43:06.560 -> 43:09.600] Then you start to dig around a bit more and then you realise,
[43:09.600 -> 43:11.080] OK, well, maybe it wasn't perfect.
[43:11.080 -> 43:12.880] Maybe your parents weren't perfect.
[43:12.880 -> 43:16.240] You know, there's that brilliant book by Oliver James, They Fuck You Up.
[43:16.240 -> 43:18.480] It's really difficult to admit sometimes.
[43:18.480 -> 43:21.240] Maybe there was stuff that went on in your family life
[43:21.240 -> 43:23.120] that was just a bit rubbish.
[43:23.120 -> 43:26.040] Maybe you were compared, maybe you were judged,
[43:26.040 -> 43:28.800] maybe parents weren't as available as they could have been.
[43:28.800 -> 43:30.520] I mean, it happens in every family
[43:30.520 -> 43:32.880] and that stuff then creates difficulties.
[43:32.880 -> 43:36.360] Maybe that time someone called you fat or ugly or stupid.
[43:36.360 -> 43:38.280] Maybe like, you know, I was telling that story,
[43:38.280 -> 43:39.840] I was only emailing the other day actually
[43:39.840 -> 43:41.280] when I was talking to you guys,
[43:41.280 -> 43:43.200] I was thinking about that teacher at school.
[43:43.200 -> 43:45.440] That was a memory that hadn't come to my head in years
[43:45.440 -> 43:49.480] about the teacher at school saying, you can't read.
[43:49.480 -> 43:51.160] I could read, but I was being bullied.
[43:51.160 -> 43:53.800] So I was frightened of speaking out in public at the time,
[43:53.800 -> 43:55.320] but I couldn't tell anyone.
[43:55.320 -> 43:56.540] So she said, you can't read.
[43:56.540 -> 43:58.000] But I carried that for years thinking,
[43:58.000 -> 44:00.080] God, I must be a bit thick.
[44:00.080 -> 44:01.640] You know, I'm not intelligent enough.
[44:01.640 -> 44:04.880] So I think stuff happens all the time to all of us
[44:04.880 -> 44:05.920] in our story.
[44:06.120 -> 44:07.840] And we carry it into adulthood.
[44:07.840 -> 44:09.520] Most of it we don't process or deal with.
[44:09.520 -> 44:11.120] We just bury it or put it away.
[44:11.320 -> 44:12.560] But then it keeps coming out.
[44:12.560 -> 44:16.520] So I'll say to people in therapy, what are the things that keep coming up over and over and over again?
[44:16.720 -> 44:20.880] So it could be, you know, you guys could be working one day doing the podcast
[44:21.080 -> 44:24.800] and somebody might do or say something that sparks a reaction in you.
[44:27.800 -> 44:32.240] But then you might have a similar reaction in Marks and Spencer's when somebody bangs into you in the queue or something and you might notice a similar
[44:32.240 -> 44:37.160] irritate it or why did they do that or so it's often themes like feeling
[44:37.160 -> 44:41.960] undervalued, undermined, contradicted you know you notice themes and you say you
[44:41.960 -> 44:47.480] need to look at that. So can I ask you then from the viewpoint of a parent like because
[44:48.000 -> 44:54.120] that's triggered something in me there as you're describing it might be somebody said something to you when you were a child and
[44:55.520 -> 45:02.760] so as a parent if my son or daughter came home and said somebody had made a unkind comment to them in the playground I
[45:02.720 -> 45:09.480] a unkind comment to them in the playground. Like sometimes I want to go and explore it and get them to what I think is
[45:09.480 -> 45:12.760] processing it but my wife might say to me just let them move on they'll be fine
[45:12.760 -> 45:16.440] with it in terms of they don't seem to be as hung up on it as you are.
[45:16.440 -> 45:21.120] Yeah. What advice can you give to any parents listening to this about the need
[45:21.120 -> 45:25.160] to go and explore the wound when it happens or how much of it
[45:25.160 -> 45:26.640] do we just have to let go as part of it?
[45:26.640 -> 45:27.640] It's a good question.
[45:27.640 -> 45:30.720] I mean, I think often with kids, it's not even about going and exploring the wound with
[45:30.720 -> 45:31.720] them.
[45:31.720 -> 45:36.120] If a kid comes back and it's saying, oh, someone's telling me I'm stupid or someone's telling
[45:36.120 -> 45:41.280] me I'm too fat or whatever the context might be, I think it's just a parent's job to reassure
[45:41.280 -> 45:42.880] and not to turn it into a big deal.
[45:42.880 -> 45:45.040] I mean, you know, good. I'm not a parent.
[45:45.040 -> 45:47.560] I've got a dog that's as close to parenting as I've got.
[45:47.760 -> 45:51.280] But I think good parenting or good relationships or anything is just about,
[45:51.480 -> 45:54.400] you know, you just be affirmative and you hold the other person up.
[45:54.600 -> 45:58.800] But it doesn't mean that you go in to rescue them and, you know, have to salvage
[45:59.000 -> 46:02.160] it every time because every parent will screw up.
[46:02.360 -> 46:04.080] You know, every human being screws up.
[46:04.080 -> 46:06.080] We will make mistakes all of the time.
[46:06.080 -> 46:09.080] That doesn't make anyone bad parents themselves,
[46:09.080 -> 46:11.800] it just means that we're human beings and we won't always get it right.
[46:11.800 -> 46:16.680] Can we discuss how closely linked our mental health is to our physical health?
[46:16.680 -> 46:17.040] Yeah.
[46:17.040 -> 46:22.000] Because we all go to the gym and we very rarely go and see therapists like you.
[46:22.000 -> 46:23.800] Yeah, I mean, the evidence is really clear.
[46:23.800 -> 46:30.200] I mean, you can't really differentiate the two, mental health and physical health are completely aligned. And I was saying
[46:30.200 -> 46:35.500] earlier that when I worked in palliative care for about 10 years of my career and the shift
[46:35.500 -> 46:40.040] into training as a therapist happened because I discovered probably most people I was working
[46:40.040 -> 46:49.960] with when they were terminally ill, both the patient and the family, the majority of distress you would see was often psychological. So we were trained to do the medications and
[46:49.960 -> 46:53.200] drugs and do all of the medical side of stuff, but often you'd sit down with somebody and
[46:53.200 -> 46:57.080] they were really struggling with coming to terms with dying or coming to terms with this
[46:57.080 -> 47:02.080] adjustment in their life. And that needed a lot of kind of specialist, you know, help
[47:02.080 -> 47:05.960] and support, which then motivated me to go off and do my psychotherapy training.
[47:05.960 -> 47:09.520] But there's a brilliant expression, the body holds the score.
[47:09.520 -> 47:13.640] And I really believe that to be true, because, you know, whatever goes on in our lives, whatever
[47:13.640 -> 47:18.440] we're carrying, whether that's trauma, emotional wounds, you know, old patterns that don't
[47:18.440 -> 47:21.520] serve as well, we carry them in the physical body.
[47:21.520 -> 47:24.920] And I often, if I'm working with a client and I'm really struggling to get them to tell
[47:24.920 -> 47:26.840] the story, or I'm really struggling to get them to tell the story or I'm really struggling to get them to
[47:26.840 -> 47:30.440] connect to an emotion, one of the easiest ways and I'll say to them, okay, what are
[47:30.440 -> 47:34.040] you feeling that in your body? You know, if I see somebody really grappling and
[47:34.040 -> 47:37.120] struggling, they'll stop and just say, tell me what's going on in your body at
[47:37.120 -> 47:41.520] the moment. And then often they'll say, oh, my stomach's turning or I feel like I'm
[47:41.520 -> 47:46.000] being choked or I've just got this real tension in my head. And then I say, OK, well, we'll go to that.
[47:46.000 -> 47:50.000] What I'll do is I'll stay with that and I'll just stay with the physical body for the minute.
[47:50.000 -> 47:55.000] And more than often, probably 99.9% of the time, if I can get them to stay there for a moment,
[47:55.000 -> 47:57.000] then the emotion will follow.
[47:57.000 -> 48:02.000] And they'll either cry or they'll get upset or something will then come from that.
[48:02.000 -> 48:04.000] So I think the two, you can't differentiate them.
[48:04.000 -> 48:05.800] So, you know, two, you can't differentiate
[48:04.200 -> 48:07.320] them. So you know, listen, you know,
[48:05.800 -> 48:08.960] really listen carefully to the body, it's
[48:07.320 -> 48:11.480] guiding you. A bit like emotions, it's
[48:08.960 -> 48:13.080] the body's guiding you as well. So can I
[48:11.480 -> 48:16.520] ask you about that period of your
[48:13.080 -> 48:19.760] career in palliative care? There's that
[48:16.520 -> 48:22.520] famous book by Bronnie Ware about the
[48:19.760 -> 48:23.840] regrets of the dying, from when
[48:22.520 -> 48:30.900] she was working in a similar situation. What were the common regrets of people that were facing the final curtain?
[48:30.900 -> 48:35.020] I found it, I mean I found it humbling because you know I'd go and I worked in
[48:35.020 -> 48:39.460] hospice, community and hospital so I kind of covered all areas and my time
[48:39.460 -> 48:43.340] there, you know I'd be sometimes worried about you know changing my mortgage or
[48:43.340 -> 48:45.880] something or you know I'm gonna renovate the kitchen, you know, changing my mortgage or something or, you know, I'm going to renovate the kitchen, you know, all the
[48:45.880 -> 48:49.600] day-to-day stuff, well, I change my car and you get all stressed about it.
[48:49.600 -> 48:53.080] And then I'd go into work and, you know, you'd be sitting with a 21 year old
[48:53.080 -> 48:57.840] who's got a month to live and, you know, planning, you know, his death and
[48:57.840 -> 49:00.000] getting the person comfortable and stuff.
[49:00.000 -> 49:04.840] And you couldn't walk away from the job feeling a different sense of perspective
[49:04.840 -> 49:08.960] because it was constantly, I mean, it was probably about 10 years in total,
[49:08.960 -> 49:13.280] reinforcing the importance of, you know, living a full life now,
[49:13.280 -> 49:16.800] you know, not kind of waiting until the next thing. It's about
[49:16.800 -> 49:21.600] embracing now. I guess, I think in this book I said somewhere, you know, if you
[49:21.600 -> 49:25.040] go to a graveyard, you will never on any
[49:23.440 -> 49:27.600] tombstone see,
[49:25.040 -> 49:28.640] oh such and such died, they had a
[49:27.600 -> 49:31.120] degree,
[49:28.640 -> 49:32.960] you know, they won a BAFTA, you know, they
[49:31.120 -> 49:34.480] had X amount of money in the bank.
[49:32.960 -> 49:36.560] You just don't, you don't, you'll see
[49:34.480 -> 49:37.280] just say beloved father, beloved son,
[49:36.560 -> 49:38.800] whatever.
[49:37.280 -> 49:40.560] It's all about relationships and I
[49:38.800 -> 49:42.080] guess that was the theme that come up
[49:40.560 -> 49:44.560] over and over and over again,
[49:42.080 -> 49:46.080] about people would talk about how they
[49:44.560 -> 49:48.760] used their time. If I had to do it again, I would spend more time with the
[49:48.960 -> 49:53.760] kids and family. I would worry less about stuff that wasn't important.
[49:53.960 -> 49:57.520] I would fret less about being better, achieving more.
[49:57.520 -> 50:01.400] All of the stuff that we've talked about today, you would hear people saying, you
[50:01.600 -> 50:04.600] know something, just don't take it all so seriously.
[50:04.800 -> 50:06.400] You know, be more present in your life. You know, let go of the stuff that doesn't matter. you would hear people saying you know something, just don't take it all so
[50:03.400 -> 50:08.040] seriously, you know, be more present in
[50:06.400 -> 50:09.560] your life, you know, let go of the stuff
[50:08.040 -> 50:11.240] that doesn't matter, way too many of us
[50:09.560 -> 50:14.080] just hold on to old stuff that just
[50:11.240 -> 50:16.400] doesn't belong here anymore, you know. And
[50:14.080 -> 50:18.560] I suppose a nice way to finish is, how
[50:16.400 -> 50:20.280] can people find that without doing the
[50:18.560 -> 50:21.720] 10 years in palliative care that you did?
[50:20.280 -> 50:23.280] How do we keep that sense of
[50:21.720 -> 50:25.560] perspective? I think it's about, I mean,
[50:23.280 -> 50:27.720] perspective is probably the key thing, I mean, none of us can control what
[50:27.720 -> 50:30.740] happens in our lives, none of us. I mean, and we know that from the last two, three
[50:30.740 -> 50:35.000] years. I mean, life sometimes will throw up big stuff that is totally out of our
[50:35.000 -> 50:38.160] control. But I think it's, again, it's about, come back to what I talked about
[50:38.160 -> 50:42.160] earlier, you can't, you can't control any of that stuff, but you can control how
[50:42.160 -> 50:46.720] you respond. And every one of
[50:44.800 -> 50:48.440] us have that choice in how we respond to
[50:46.720 -> 50:51.320] life. And I think it's often about
[50:48.440 -> 50:52.880] stopping every day in your life about, I
[50:51.320 -> 50:54.120] know you read Daily Stoic, I have that
[50:52.880 -> 50:55.640] book as well. And funny, I read it today
[50:54.120 -> 50:57.360] coming out, it's something I pick up on
[50:55.640 -> 50:59.640] every day, and today was about seizing the
[50:57.360 -> 51:01.000] day. And I thought that was ironic
[50:59.640 -> 51:03.320] coming in today, because I do think it's
[51:01.000 -> 51:04.960] about, okay, what's my perspective today
[51:03.320 -> 51:07.320] and what choices am I going to make
[51:04.960 -> 51:08.800] today, and how I respond to life because it's you know, we all want
[51:08.800 -> 51:13.580] life to go the way we think it should be. We want people to behave the way we think
[51:13.580 -> 51:18.700] they should behave. We want things to work out because we think it should. But of course
[51:18.700 -> 51:23.700] it often doesn't do that. And it's about really well, what would it be like just to start
[51:23.700 -> 51:25.640] working with life rather than working against it? And then see what that brings you. that and it's about really, well what would it be like just to start working
[51:24.080 -> 51:28.280] with life rather than working against it
[51:25.640 -> 51:29.920] and then see what that brings you. Have
[51:28.280 -> 51:31.520] you got a favourite from the Stoics? I
[51:29.920 -> 51:33.560] live every day with, and I want to get a
[51:31.520 -> 51:35.480] little MM on my wrist here, Memento Mori,
[51:33.560 -> 51:36.800] remember you're dying. Yeah, yeah. And I think
[51:35.480 -> 51:39.200] people think that's a bit negative.
[51:36.800 -> 51:40.800] It's not. But, well it's very, it's the most
[51:39.200 -> 51:42.200] uplifting thing. It's very, very Buddhist.
[51:40.800 -> 51:44.040] I mean they talk all the time about
[51:42.200 -> 51:46.080] non, you know, impermanence, you know, that
[51:44.040 -> 51:46.480] is one of the best ways of living a full life.
[51:46.480 -> 51:51.400] You just remember we're just temporary and we're just, you know, grab it, grab it, make
[51:51.400 -> 51:53.800] the best of it, seize the day.
[51:53.800 -> 51:54.800] Very good.
[51:54.800 -> 51:55.800] Right.
[51:55.800 -> 51:56.800] Quick five questions.
[51:56.800 -> 51:57.800] Perfect.
[51:57.800 -> 52:01.480] What are the three non-negotiables that you and the people that you work with, you encourage
[52:01.480 -> 52:03.200] them to buy into?
[52:03.200 -> 52:07.240] I think how you talk to yourself is the first thing.
[52:07.440 -> 52:11.600] You know, if you're giving yourself a hard time and you've been cruel or
[52:11.800 -> 52:14.240] you've been toxic to yourself, that's a non-negotiable.
[52:14.440 -> 52:15.680] You're never going to move forward.
[52:15.880 -> 52:19.120] I think secondly, in terms of like high performance and stuff,
[52:19.320 -> 52:22.760] if you're not doing what's aligned to your values and what matters to you,
[52:22.960 -> 52:24.640] you'll never be satisfied.
[52:24.840 -> 52:29.600] And I think the third thing is, you know, that kind of reminder that, you know, we are here,
[52:29.600 -> 52:36.160] we're here for a short time. And it really is about making daily decisions about how you get
[52:36.160 -> 52:40.880] the best from your day and your life. And when you compromise on that, you compromise on your
[52:40.880 -> 52:48.760] well-being and your happiness. So I would drop that. If you could go back to one moment in your life, what would it be and why?
[52:48.960 -> 52:53.000] The memory that jumps into mind straight away is I remember I was on holiday about,
[52:53.200 -> 52:57.440] probably about 10, 12 years ago, and I was in a particularly good place in my life.
[52:57.560 -> 52:59.640] And ironically, a bit like what you were saying earlier,
[52:59.840 -> 53:02.320] I hadn't done the books or anything at that stage.
[53:02.320 -> 53:04.440] My career was doing fine.
[53:04.440 -> 53:05.840] There was nothing spectacular going
[53:05.840 -> 53:09.600] on, I was getting on with my career. I was on holiday with mates and we were down outside
[53:09.600 -> 53:16.400] Barcelona and we were just on the beach and in the water and, you know, doing a bit of water sports
[53:16.400 -> 53:22.400] and all, knocking around, no responsibility, real sense of freedom and, you know, genuinely just
[53:22.400 -> 53:25.200] being there with mates, having a good time in the sea, not holding on to anything and just kind of freedom and, you know, genuinely just
[53:22.360 -> 53:28.440] being there with mates, having a
[53:25.200 -> 53:29.960] good time in the sea, not holding on to
[53:28.440 -> 53:31.960] anything and just kind of that sense of
[53:29.960 -> 53:34.480] freedom that we often don't feel enough,
[53:31.960 -> 53:36.560] you know, that kind of, yeah, just that
[53:34.480 -> 53:40.280] sense of liberation and freedom. How
[53:36.560 -> 53:41.960] important is legacy to you? Nowadays,
[53:40.280 -> 53:43.720] probably because I'm getting older, way
[53:41.960 -> 53:46.240] way more important, but it's not about,
[53:43.720 -> 53:48.640] it's interesting the question, for me it's probably because I'm getting older, way, way more important, but it's not about, it's interesting the question, for me it's not about, I think 10 years ago legacy would have
[53:48.640 -> 53:53.520] been what have I achieved, if I'm being really truthful about that, whereas today I would say
[53:53.520 -> 53:59.440] legacy is probably about what have I contributed and what do I leave behind is helpful.
[54:00.720 -> 54:03.760] What advice would you give to a teenager when just starting out?
[54:05.720 -> 54:02.520] What advice would you give to a teenager
[54:07.480 -> 54:05.720] just starting out? It's a good question and
[54:10.560 -> 54:07.480] so it's a big question. I mean I think
[54:11.960 -> 54:10.560] teenagers just absolutely annihilate
[54:13.960 -> 54:11.960] themselves. I think the pressure they're
[54:16.600 -> 54:13.960] under is enormous and I think social
[54:19.720 -> 54:16.600] media and external factors play a big
[54:21.680 -> 54:19.720] big part in that. The biggest piece of
[54:24.960 -> 54:21.680] advice I would probably give is don't
[54:26.840 -> 54:24.960] believe all that you see because most of
[54:25.460 -> 54:29.860] what we see online is magical and perfect and lovely, you know, as to don't believe all of that,
[54:29.860 -> 54:35.440] you know, it's not real. And, but like what I'd say to my own self really is that,
[54:35.440 -> 54:40.660] you know, as you are is absolutely fine. One book that you would recommend people
[54:40.660 -> 54:46.400] read? Oh, I mean my favourite is The Power of Now, you know, the old God, I mean my favourite is
[54:44.120 -> 54:49.360] The Power of Now, you know the old
[54:46.400 -> 54:50.880] classic, I think it's a brilliant book. The
[54:49.360 -> 54:53.200] Daily Stoic I like if you just want to
[54:50.880 -> 54:54.960] dip in and out. There's a brilliant book
[54:53.200 -> 54:57.080] by an American psychologist called A
[54:54.960 -> 55:00.000] Guide to Rational Living, which is a
[54:57.080 -> 55:01.680] real old-school book just about change
[55:00.000 -> 55:03.760] and perspective, and I think it's probably
[55:01.680 -> 55:05.880] one of the most common sense psychology
[55:03.760 -> 55:08.520] books there is out there so they would be the ones I think are good. And finally is there one
[55:08.520 -> 55:14.240] golden rule you'd offer to live in a high-performance life? My advice would be
[55:14.240 -> 55:17.840] don't make you know some of the mistakes I've made which is about the external
[55:17.840 -> 55:26.560] validation stuff, go inward and find that internal steady state where you know that you're doing what you
[55:26.560 -> 55:32.080] should be doing and it makes sense to you and it has value to you and trust in the process.
[55:32.080 -> 55:36.240] I think the more you let go, the more the stuff that's meant to happen happens. I think
[55:36.240 -> 55:40.600] the more you try to control it and fabricate it, then you end up going in a direction that
[55:40.600 -> 55:42.200] may not necessarily be right for you.
[55:42.200 -> 55:45.600] I can't thank you enough for for coming and having this conversation with us
[55:46.000 -> 55:48.000] great, you know from a from a
[55:48.240 -> 55:53.840] perspective of real education and real experience and the people you've worked with and I think the fact that you've
[55:53.920 -> 55:59.140] Worked with so many people who are dying and then you've worked with people who are absolutely at the top of their game and are
[55:59.320 -> 56:04.600] Conquering the world and what they're doing. I think it gives you such a rounded view and such a rounded understanding of humanity
[56:05.360 -> 56:08.220] And I love at the end when we asked you to go back to one
[56:08.880 -> 56:14.000] Previous point in your life every single person every single person we've ever asked that question to over a hundred people
[56:14.040 -> 56:17.840] They've gone to a negative moment and wanted to make it a positive moment yet
[56:17.840 -> 56:22.000] You chose to go straight back to a positive moment where you were relaxed and happy and I think
[56:22.360 -> 56:27.260] That in itself holds a great lesson for people as Matthew McConaughey told us on this podcast look for the
[56:27.260 -> 56:30.980] green lights and that's what you're doing and you're helping others to do
[56:30.980 -> 56:33.700] that so all power to you and thank you for your time. Thanks for having me, it's been great.
[56:33.700 -> 56:37.320] Thanks Chris. Legend.
[56:38.200 -> 56:44.140] Damien. Jake. How do you feel? I feel like I've just had a therapy session. Well you have.
[56:44.140 -> 56:46.840] I felt like when I shared that example with Owen
[56:46.840 -> 56:50.620] I felt a little bit vulnerable on the back of it
[56:50.620 -> 56:54.340] that maybe I'd overshared or offered something a bit too much
[56:54.340 -> 57:02.280] but I think that's being comfortable with the discomfort that Owen was talking about sometimes. You can't shy away from it and distract it
[57:02.280 -> 57:05.800] you've got to go and try and explore it and be curious.
[57:05.800 -> 57:08.600] Have you ever actually been to proper therapy in your life?
[57:08.600 -> 57:17.240] No, so I found even that was quite an interesting experience just to just to open up and again I
[57:17.240 -> 57:23.880] think that curiosity of just exploring feelings and what's coming up and I think that technique
[57:23.880 -> 57:27.640] he shared about would I have spoke to you in the same cruel way
[57:27.640 -> 57:29.800] That I suppose myself was a bit of an eye-opener
[57:29.800 -> 57:34.280] I wonder why you've not been to therapy then when you've basically spent your life dishing out therapy to
[57:35.000 -> 57:39.280] Elite individuals that are struggling like, you know, the power of getting the mind on point
[57:39.280 -> 57:42.500] You know that you can spend all the time working on your body, but you don't work with your mind
[57:43.000 -> 57:47.320] And then there's trouble. Yeah. No no I think it's really good question but I think it
[57:47.320 -> 57:52.120] comes back to that that sometimes like that phrase I mentioned to Owen was that
[57:52.120 -> 57:54.960] cobblers children have the worst shoes that sometimes we don't always
[57:54.960 -> 58:02.440] prioritize our own care because we're prioritizing other people's or but I
[58:02.440 -> 58:08.440] think it's a real moment of reflection for me. Is it anything to do with your sort of the ultra masculine upbringing in boxing
[58:08.440 -> 58:14.240] gyms and stuff? Yeah I think so, I think, I think it, I think some of it is about
[58:14.240 -> 58:19.840] the, the kind of view of masculinity that I grew up with but also I think the
[58:19.840 -> 58:26.160] area that I grew up as well that I don't think people, especially males, if to stereotype,
[58:26.160 -> 58:31.360] were comfortable talking about feelings and making themselves vulnerable on that. So I think that
[58:32.080 -> 58:39.760] it's a bit of an updating of my own software, my own thinking of what I'm acceptable or what
[58:39.760 -> 58:46.720] I'm comfortable with. And I think for you listening to this, if you haven't been to therapy, don't sort of
[58:46.720 -> 58:53.640] think, oh, maybe, maybe I'm weak for not daring to go. What I would say is just, I don't know
[58:53.640 -> 58:57.520] whether you agree with this Damian, but even just listening to this podcast is a form of
[58:57.520 -> 59:01.160] therapy just for people to delve into their own minds, to challenge themselves, to listen,
[59:01.160 -> 59:05.000] to grow, to agree, to disagree with some of the things that they hear.
[59:05.000 -> 59:07.000] You know, I like to look at high performance
[59:07.000 -> 59:08.000] as the new version of education.
[59:08.000 -> 59:11.000] Like I said, going to uni, just listen to the world CEOs
[59:11.000 -> 59:14.000] and business leaders and free thinkers talking to us.
[59:14.000 -> 59:16.000] And it's a bit like, if you don't want to go to therapy,
[59:16.000 -> 59:18.000] still come to this and still grow from this.
[59:18.000 -> 59:20.000] Yeah, because if we take that message
[59:20.000 -> 59:23.000] that Owen was talking about, of just coming with an open mind
[59:23.000 -> 59:26.000] and coming with a spirit of exploration.
[59:26.000 -> 59:28.920] I think that the diversity, I guess,
[59:28.920 -> 59:31.800] that we're looking after me on this podcast series
[59:32.600 -> 59:35.640] force you to see things from different perspectives,
[59:35.640 -> 59:37.920] to go and explore worlds that we've never seen before
[59:37.920 -> 59:40.480] or opinions that you disagree with.
[59:40.480 -> 59:43.080] And rather than seek to prove them right or wrong,
[59:43.080 -> 59:44.680] just ask, does this help me
[59:44.680 -> 59:49.680] or is it unhelpful on my own journey?
[59:49.680 -> 59:54.060] We joined once again by listening to the High Performance podcast and this guest was actually
[59:54.060 -> 59:59.340] recommended by his colleague Sam who says that, my colleague Jamie is one of our full-time
[59:59.340 -> 01:00:08.760] academy coaches here at Manchester City with a really full-on role, anti-social hours, yet despite all of that he pushes and challenges himself which in turn
[01:00:08.760 -> 01:00:13.600] inspires the staff, inspires the players and inspires the parents at the club.
[01:00:13.600 -> 01:00:17.160] Kevin de Bruyne has also been vocal about his admiration for the challenges
[01:00:17.160 -> 01:00:22.440] that Jamie takes on. In March he completed the 250 kilometer Marathon de
[01:00:22.440 -> 01:00:25.300] Saba and this autumn will be attempting the transatlantic
[01:00:25.300 -> 01:00:31.480] row as a solo effort. Two huge challenges all while still getting 20,000 daily steps
[01:00:31.480 -> 01:00:35.820] from his day job. Throughout his training and the challenges he's maintained a really
[01:00:35.820 -> 01:00:39.740] positive outlook at work. His Instagram page is full of videos of him smiling and being
[01:00:39.740 -> 01:00:43.140] excited by the challenge in front of them. He listens to the podcast, we've shared a
[01:00:43.140 -> 01:00:46.280] few episodes between us, but he isn't the type to reach out
[01:00:46.280 -> 01:00:47.160] and put himself forward.
[01:00:47.160 -> 01:00:48.560] So I'm doing it for him.
[01:00:48.560 -> 01:00:50.160] So I guess the first question is Jamie,
[01:00:50.160 -> 01:00:53.360] are you pleased that Sam has mentioned you to us
[01:00:53.360 -> 01:00:54.640] or are you annoyed and frustrated
[01:00:54.640 -> 01:00:56.640] you having to speak to Damien and myself?
[01:00:56.640 -> 01:00:59.560] Oh, what a privilege, of course.
[01:01:00.440 -> 01:01:01.840] No, thanks a million to Sam.
[01:01:01.840 -> 01:01:04.040] You know, we speak about the podcast quite a bit,
[01:01:04.040 -> 01:01:07.120] to be honest, and when he mentioned to me that he had spoke to you guys,
[01:01:07.120 -> 01:01:10.280] I was like, oh no, I'm gonna have to get prepared. So yeah, here we go.
[01:01:11.480 -> 01:01:15.920] Well, I always think that everyone needs a mate like Sam though, you know,
[01:01:15.920 -> 01:01:19.400] like in terms of somebody that's prepared to champion and cheerlead for you.
[01:01:19.400 -> 01:01:22.000] So tell us a little bit about your relationship with him.
[01:01:22.000 -> 01:01:24.720] Yeah, well, I've known Sam for a couple of years, mostly through work.
[01:01:22.000 -> 01:01:27.360] Tell us a little bit about your relationship with him. Yeah, well, I've known Sam for a couple of years, mostly through work. However, I think some of the
[01:01:27.360 -> 01:01:35.520] things that we share are just our sort of enthusiasm and love for challenges and adventure.
[01:01:35.520 -> 01:01:39.920] So Sam's also done a crazy challenge a few years ago, and I love just picking his brains around
[01:01:39.920 -> 01:01:50.120] what he did and how it came about from the fundraising side of it to the actual doing the tough challenges. And then that's flipped totally now where I'm the one doing it and
[01:01:50.120 -> 01:01:53.200] he's picking my brains and loves speaking to me about it.
[01:01:53.200 -> 01:01:56.720] Brilliant. So let's go through then what high performance has done for you when it comes
[01:01:56.720 -> 01:02:01.520] to these challenges. If people do follow you on Instagram, they will see a smile on your
[01:02:01.520 -> 01:02:09.900] face while you're undertaking some of the hardest endurance challenges you can put the human body through. How much of it is to do with mindset that's
[01:02:09.900 -> 01:02:13.920] been changed by listening to high performance or was this already there? Were you already
[01:02:13.920 -> 01:02:16.800] of this kind of mindset before you stumbled across our podcast?
[01:02:16.800 -> 01:02:21.600] Yeah, well, it's funny. One of the main times and opportunities I get to actually listen
[01:02:21.600 -> 01:02:25.440] to you guys is during training. So I was already underway with
[01:02:25.440 -> 01:02:30.160] my challenges and preparation for it when I came across you guys. But one of the big key things
[01:02:30.160 -> 01:02:35.200] that I've taken from it is how in-depth and how often you guys speak about self-discipline.
[01:02:35.200 -> 01:02:39.200] And it kind of triggered something in my mind because when I was preparing for these challenges,
[01:02:39.200 -> 01:02:43.600] self-discipline was always the thing that I knew I was going to struggle with, particularly when
[01:02:43.600 -> 01:02:49.360] it's such a long campaign where you're training for two or three years in the lead up to these events, in terms
[01:02:49.360 -> 01:02:55.600] of fundraising and bringing everything together and the physical training. So yeah, when I started
[01:02:55.600 -> 01:03:00.960] here, that was a common theme throughout most of your podcasts. I was hooked straight away. And
[01:03:00.960 -> 01:03:04.160] that's the sort of bit that I listen out for when you guys are speaking and asking questions,
[01:03:04.960 -> 01:03:07.400] and picking the brains of these great people, really.
[01:03:07.560 -> 01:03:11.720] So tell us about self-discipline then Jamie, because as you say,
[01:03:11.720 -> 01:03:16.160] you spend in two or three years preparing for this incredible physical fee,
[01:03:16.760 -> 01:03:20.600] what lessons and tips and techniques could you pass on to our listeners about
[01:03:21.760 -> 01:03:25.920] disciplining yourself to take those small steps relentlessly?
[01:03:30.480 -> 01:03:34.080] Well, to start, I would say I was actually really, really poor at self-discipline, and that was probably one of the driving factors towards me wanting to take on these challenges.
[01:03:35.120 -> 01:03:41.280] I'm one of those persons that I get home from a holiday, the suitcase will stay unpacked for about
[01:03:41.280 -> 01:03:44.640] two or three days, and it takes me two or three days to go, right, get your act together and get
[01:03:44.640 -> 01:03:45.360] that sorted. So that's me all out. However to go, right, get your act together and get that sorted.
[01:03:45.640 -> 01:03:46.680] So that's me all out.
[01:03:47.040 -> 01:03:50.360] Um, however, when I was taking on these challenges, I knew that they were
[01:03:50.360 -> 01:03:52.680] literally 90% about self-discipline.
[01:03:53.120 -> 01:03:56.320] Um, you think about the row, for example, if you don't clip yourself in every
[01:03:56.320 -> 01:03:59.720] time you leave the cabin, you're at risk of any wave and you're,
[01:03:59.720 -> 01:04:01.040] and you're separated from the boat.
[01:04:01.380 -> 01:04:04.080] It's same with the training day to day for the marathon, the salve.
[01:04:04.600 -> 01:04:08.100] I knew that if I missed consistent days of training, I'm just not going to be
[01:04:08.100 -> 01:04:08.480] prepared.
[01:04:08.480 -> 01:04:10.180] I'm not going to give myself the best opportunity.
[01:04:10.580 -> 01:04:14.120] So I knew straight away at the beginning that self-discipline was going to be
[01:04:14.120 -> 01:04:14.820] critical for me.
[01:04:14.820 -> 01:04:18.620] And throughout sort of listening to you guys, I've just heard that there's no
[01:04:18.620 -> 01:04:19.400] secret sauce.
[01:04:19.400 -> 01:04:24.660] There's no magic sort of answer to, to, to getting this sort of stuff nailed.
[01:04:29.480 -> 01:04:34.320] However, I listened to your podcast with like Phil Neville, and I just thought that he talked about self-discipline and how he used to train with the under 16s when he was an under 18
[01:04:34.320 -> 01:04:39.920] to do extras and he was knackered and how he used to get up before 8am during COVID
[01:04:39.920 -> 01:04:42.160] and his whole family would train together and those sort of bits.
[01:04:42.160 -> 01:04:45.840] It's just fascinating to hear that even people at the top of their game
[01:04:45.840 -> 01:04:49.080] are making these small sacrifices towards their life
[01:04:49.080 -> 01:04:53.040] or their goals in order to get sort of a high performance,
[01:04:53.040 -> 01:04:54.280] I suppose.
[01:04:54.280 -> 01:04:55.820] And I think one of the other interesting things
[01:04:55.820 -> 01:04:58.360] about your life is that you're actually
[01:04:58.360 -> 01:04:59.440] in an environment, Jamie,
[01:04:59.440 -> 01:05:01.920] that plays into all the things that you hear us talk about
[01:05:01.920 -> 01:05:03.200] and discuss on the podcast, you know,
[01:05:03.200 -> 01:05:05.600] because you are in that elite environment
[01:05:05.600 -> 01:05:09.680] where attention to detail and marginal gains
[01:05:09.680 -> 01:05:12.520] is all part of what takes a football club
[01:05:12.520 -> 01:05:14.040] like Manchester City to the very top,
[01:05:14.040 -> 01:05:16.240] whether it's at academy level, first team level,
[01:05:16.240 -> 01:05:18.040] on the women's side,
[01:05:18.040 -> 01:05:20.360] the attention to detail at that football club
[01:05:20.360 -> 01:05:23.080] is like nothing I've ever experienced.
[01:05:23.080 -> 01:05:26.400] Yeah, we see it in the academy every day. We see the
[01:05:26.400 -> 01:05:30.800] stuff that the players and stuff are doing in front of us on the training pitch, but it's also
[01:05:30.800 -> 01:05:35.680] the stuff that they do away from there. And that's the bit that I get impressed by. It's the people
[01:05:35.680 -> 01:05:39.600] that are doing things before they arrive to work or before they arrive in and what they're doing
[01:05:39.600 -> 01:05:43.760] afterwards. And it's those bits when you get access to that and you see what a day in the life
[01:05:43.760 -> 01:05:45.240] of him or her looks like. And that's what really impresses me. It's brilliant. when you get access to that and you see what a day in the life of him or her looks like.
[01:05:45.240 -> 01:05:47.240] And that's what really impresses me.
[01:05:47.240 -> 01:05:48.240] Brilliant.
[01:05:48.240 -> 01:05:50.440] And you've got the transatlantic row coming up in the autumn.
[01:05:50.440 -> 01:05:55.200] Can you give the listeners to this conversation, one little tip that you employ when you have
[01:05:55.200 -> 01:05:58.400] a bit of negative self-talk where it's like, Oh, that's going to be hard.
[01:05:58.400 -> 01:06:00.000] Or what if you fail?
[01:06:00.000 -> 01:06:01.000] What if the waves are big?
[01:06:01.000 -> 01:06:03.280] What if the weather's not right?
[01:06:03.280 -> 01:06:06.240] How do you kind of counteract that in your own mind when those
[01:06:06.440 -> 01:06:08.520] very natural doubts creep in?
[01:06:09.200 -> 01:06:12.840] Yeah, well, look, I have no sailing background, no maritime background.
[01:06:12.840 -> 01:06:16.240] So there's been a million and one reasons for me not to do this row.
[01:06:16.680 -> 01:06:19.400] However, I've made a promise to myself that I'm going to talk myself
[01:06:19.400 -> 01:06:20.960] in rather than talking myself out.
[01:06:21.440 -> 01:06:25.000] So, um, I'm finding, I'm finding a few reasons to make sure
[01:06:25.000 -> 01:06:28.880] that I can stay on track and do it every day and every week, rather than thinking
[01:06:28.880 -> 01:06:32.080] of all the reasons why I'm probably not capable, not experienced enough.
[01:06:32.520 -> 01:06:33.960] Uh, I'm not able to do it.
[01:06:33.960 -> 01:06:37.520] So I think that's a good way of just, uh, find a way to talk yourself in every
[01:06:37.520 -> 01:06:40.360] day that adds to talking to yourself in weekly.
[01:06:40.360 -> 01:06:44.040] And hopefully you'll talk yourself into getting yourself across the Atlantic
[01:06:44.040 -> 01:06:44.440] ocean.
[01:06:44.600 -> 01:06:45.020] And will you tell us about the charity that you're doing it for as well, Jamie? Yeah, I'm doing it for two charities. weekly and hopefully you'll talk yourself into getting yourself across the Atlantic Ocean.
[01:06:45.020 -> 01:06:47.680] And will you tell us about the charity that you're doing it for as well, Jamie?
[01:06:47.680 -> 01:06:49.360] Yeah, I'm doing it for two charities.
[01:06:49.360 -> 01:06:51.920] I'm supporting two charities that help young people.
[01:06:51.920 -> 01:06:55.920] One's in Ireland and it's called Cancer Fund for Children, which supports children and
[01:06:55.920 -> 01:06:58.520] their families after cancer diagnosis.
[01:06:58.520 -> 01:07:03.040] And then here in Manchester, City in the Community is the charity that's linked with the football
[01:07:03.040 -> 01:07:08.280] club and their new mental health program called City Thrive is out there helping young people in Manchester.
[01:07:08.280 -> 01:07:13.380] So it's sort of both of the charities are there to support young people and that's what
[01:07:13.380 -> 01:07:14.880] I wanted to raise money for.
[01:07:14.880 -> 01:07:16.360] Cheers Jamie, good luck with it mate.
[01:07:16.360 -> 01:07:18.480] Yeah, thanks a lot. Keep up the good work guys.
[01:07:18.480 -> 01:07:28.500] What do you make of that then? My wife has read Owen's book, we just recently went on
[01:07:28.500 -> 01:07:33.120] holiday and she took it and you know it was a game changer for her as well and Owen's
[01:07:33.120 -> 01:07:38.480] got quite a few books, whether it's 10 Times Happier which was globally acclaimed and amazing
[01:07:38.480 -> 01:07:43.400] or 10 to Zen or his latest book How to Be Your Own Therapist. He is someone that is
[01:07:43.400 -> 01:07:45.520] sharing some really incredible value,
[01:07:45.520 -> 01:07:45.840] I think,
[01:07:45.840 -> 01:07:50.120] and I hope that you feel like this is a podcast that if it
[01:07:50.120 -> 01:07:51.480] doesn't answer everything for you,
[01:07:52.080 -> 01:07:54.960] it just maybe sends you down a road where you,
[01:07:55.000 -> 01:07:56.960] where you look for a few more answers.
[01:07:57.200 -> 01:07:57.600] Um,
[01:07:57.600 -> 01:08:00.440] because Owen is a smart guy that's done amazing things.
[01:08:00.440 -> 01:08:00.680] And,
[01:08:00.680 -> 01:08:01.520] uh,
[01:08:01.520 -> 01:08:02.120] I just,
[01:08:02.240 -> 01:08:04.840] I just think it's so valuable to be having these conversations and listen,
[01:08:04.840 -> 01:08:11.560] if you are struggling, please seek professional support please speak to people please share
[01:08:11.560 -> 01:08:14.920] your concerns and your worries and you will be amazed just how many people are feeling
[01:08:14.920 -> 01:08:20.360] in exactly the same way and and you know as you heard in this conversation it was quite
[01:08:20.360 -> 01:08:26.760] a deep one for me you know I found it really moving so look, thank you very much to you really for sharing and for
[01:08:26.760 -> 01:08:28.920] growing this podcast among your community.
[01:08:28.920 -> 01:08:32.040] Don't forget, you can now subscribe to our subscription
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[01:08:36.640 -> 01:08:40.400] We also have our free members club, the High Performance Circle.
[01:08:40.760 -> 01:08:44.720] And if you go to the highperformancepodcast.com, you can become a member of
[01:08:44.720 -> 01:08:49.060] the High Performance Circle right now. Thanks so much to the amazing team that we have working
[01:08:49.060 -> 01:08:54.700] on this podcast, Finn, Hannah, Will, Eve, Gemma, and quite a few other people. But the
[01:08:54.700 -> 01:08:59.580] biggest thanks goes to you. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So
[01:08:59.580 -> 01:09:04.740] please chase world class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious
[01:09:04.740 -> 01:09:35.240] and empathetic. And we'll see you very soon. Attention, Fred Meyer shoppers. Did you know there's a world of innovative services and
[01:09:35.240 -> 01:09:40.760] patient care right in store? It's where an award-winning pharmacy and nationally recognized
[01:09:40.760 -> 01:09:48.600] care come together. Connect with one of our licensed pharmacists today at your local Fred Meyer and experience the care you and your family
[01:09:48.600 -> 01:09:54.280] deserve. Fred Meyer, a world of care is in store. Services and availability vary by
[01:09:54.280 -> 01:09:57.680] location, age and other restrictions may apply. For coverage consult your health
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