E116 - Steve Borthwick: Learning from experience

Steve Borthwick is the current head coach of the England men's national rugby team. Prior to this he was appointed Head Coach at Leicester Tigers in February 2020 after five seasons as Forwards Coach with England. As a player Steve made 240 appearances and won 57 caps for England, including two years as captain.

This episode will explore how Steve has used his experiences of being a Saracens captain, working as a forwards coach at England and Bristol Bears to shape his team, their culture and ultimately their success.

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<ol>
<li><b>Clear Goals and Relentless Effort:</b> Borthwick emphasizes the importance of having clear goals and being willing to put in relentless effort to achieve them. He believes that success comes from dedication and perseverance, rather than relying on talent or natural ability.</li>
<li><b>Learning from Mistakes:</b> Borthwick views mistakes as learning opportunities rather than setbacks. He encourages his players to embrace mistakes as a chance to improve and grow, rather than dwelling on them or becoming discouraged.</li>
<li><b>Player-Led Standards:</b> Borthwick promotes a culture where players take ownership of their performance and drive each other to improve. He believes that when players are empowered to hold themselves and their teammates accountable, they are more likely to achieve high standards.</li>
<li><b>Respect and Empathy:</b> Borthwick values treating people with respect and empathy, both on and off the field. He believes that creating a positive and supportive environment is essential for fostering a successful team culture.</li>
<li><b>Adaptability and Learning:</b> Borthwick emphasizes the need for continuous learning and adaptation. He believes that teams must be willing to change and evolve their strategies and tactics based on the changing circumstances of the game.</li>
<li><b>Focus on the Present:</b> Borthwick encourages his players to focus on the present moment and not dwell on past mistakes or worry about future outcomes. He believes that by staying present and focused, players can perform at their best.</li>
<li><b>Mental Freedom and Risk-Taking:</b> Borthwick encourages his players to embrace mental freedom and take risks on the field. He believes that players should be encouraged to express themselves and try new things, even if there is a chance of making mistakes.</li>
<li><b>Equal Treatment and Tough Decisions:</b> Borthwick treats all players equally, regardless of their individual abilities or status. However, he also makes tough decisions when necessary, such as selecting players for the starting lineup or making substitutions during a game.</li>
<li><b>Player Development and Improvement:</b> Borthwick prioritizes player development and improvement. He works with his coaching staff to create individualized training programs and provide players with the support and resources they need to reach their full potential.</li>
<li><b>Creating a Positive Team Culture:</b> Borthwick believes that a positive team culture is essential for success. He fosters a culture of respect, trust, and accountability, where players feel supported and motivated to achieve their goals.</li>
</ol>

## Overview: How Steve Borthwick Led Leicester Tigers to Success

Steve Borthwick, the current head coach of the England men's national rugby team and former coach of Leicester Tigers, shares his unique approach to team building, culture, and leadership. Borthwick emphasizes the importance of creating a team that is committed to fighting and never backing down, regardless of the circumstances. He also stresses the need for clear communication, accountability, and a willingness to learn and adapt quickly.

## Key Points:

1. **Fighting Spirit:** Borthwick believes that a team must possess a fighting spirit and a refusal to back down. This means being willing to stand up for one another, showing resilience in the face of adversity, and never giving up.


2. **Clear Communication and Expectations:** Borthwick emphasizes the importance of clear communication and establishing clear expectations for the team. He believes that players need to know exactly what is expected of them in terms of behavior, performance, and values.


3. **Accountability:** Borthwick stresses the need for accountability at all levels of the team. He believes that players and coaches must be held accountable for their actions and that a culture of honesty and openness is essential for success.


4. **Learning and Adapting:** Borthwick believes that a team must be willing to learn and adapt quickly. He encourages players to embrace mistakes as learning opportunities and to be constantly seeking ways to improve. He also emphasizes the importance of staying humble and being open to new ideas.


5. **Creating a Positive Culture:** Borthwick emphasizes the importance of creating a positive and supportive culture within the team. He believes that players need to feel valued, respected, and part of something bigger than themselves. He also stresses the importance of building strong relationships between players and coaches.


6. **Leading by Example:** Borthwick believes that leaders must lead by example. He believes that leaders need to be willing to put in the hard work, demonstrate the values they expect from their team, and be willing to make tough decisions when necessary.


7. **Focusing on the Process:** Borthwick believes that teams should focus on the process rather than the outcome. He believes that if a team focuses on doing the right things and following the right processes, the results will eventually come.


8. **Celebrating Success:** Borthwick believes that it is important to celebrate success and acknowledge the hard work and dedication of the team. He believes that this helps to build morale and motivation and creates a positive and rewarding environment.

# Steve Borthwick: The High-Performance Mindset

## Key Themes:
* Steve Borthwick's journey from player to coach, emphasizing the importance of continuous learning and adaptation.
* The crucial role of culture and values in shaping a successful team.
* The significance of empathy and kindness in leadership and team dynamics.

## Leadership and Culture:
* Steve Borthwick's emphasis on creating a positive and supportive team culture.
* The importance of setting clear expectations and standards.
* The need for leaders to be authentic and genuine.
* The power of empathy and understanding in motivating and inspiring a team.

## Performance and Mindset:
* The significance of hard work, dedication, and perseverance in achieving success.
* The importance of learning from mistakes and setbacks.
* The value of resilience and mental toughness in overcoming challenges.
* The role of a growth mindset in continuous improvement and development.

## Team Dynamics and Communication:
* The importance of effective communication and feedback within a team.
* The need for open and honest dialogue to address issues and improve performance.
* The significance of trust and respect in building strong team relationships.
* The value of diversity and inclusivity in creating a cohesive and high-performing team.

## Personal Growth and Development:
* Steve Borthwick's emphasis on continuous learning and self-improvement.
* The importance of seeking feedback and embracing constructive criticism.
* The value of surrounding oneself with mentors and coaches for guidance and support.
* The significance of maintaining a healthy work-life balance.

## Overcoming Challenges:
* Steve Borthwick's resilience in facing setbacks and challenges throughout his career.
* The importance of learning from adversity and using it as an opportunity for growth.
* The power of perseverance and determination in overcoming obstacles.
* The value of seeking support and guidance from others during difficult times.

## Conclusion:
Steve Borthwick's journey as a player and coach offers valuable insights into the qualities and strategies that contribute to high performance. His emphasis on culture, leadership, mindset, team dynamics, and personal growth provides a comprehensive framework for aspiring leaders and individuals seeking excellence in their respective fields.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.800] Hi everyone, it's Jay Comfrey here and you're listening to the High Performance Podcast,
[00:05.800 -> 00:11.160] our gift to you for free every single week that takes the lived experiences of the planet's
[00:11.160 -> 00:16.040] highest performers and turns them into your life lessons. And I feel a bit sad really
[00:16.040 -> 00:20.640] because this is the third and final episode of the Gallagher Leadership Series with the
[00:20.640 -> 00:25.040] High Performance Podcast, where we have spoken to three top leaders in
[00:25.040 -> 00:29.560] the world of rugby about their learnings and their lessons and their failings and
[00:29.560 -> 00:33.240] the things they've discovered along the way and thank you so much for the
[00:33.240 -> 00:37.240] amazing feedback. It's been remarkable to see so many of you getting in touch
[00:37.240 -> 00:40.320] telling us that you're learning a lot from the three guests or the two guests
[00:40.320 -> 00:48.880] so far who've joined us. Today of of course, is the third and final episode. And you are not alone in listening to this. This week alone, I had a text
[00:48.880 -> 00:55.240] message from a national football coach. I had a phone call and a couple of
[00:55.240 -> 00:58.720] messages from three Premier League football managers, and all of them
[00:58.720 -> 01:02.360] wanted to talk about the conversations we're having on this podcast. So when
[01:02.360 -> 01:04.840] you're sitting in your car, or when you're walking your dog, or when you're
[01:04.840 -> 01:05.720] travelling to work, and you're listening to this podcast. So when you're sitting in your car or when you're walking your dog or when you're traveling to work
[01:05.720 -> 01:06.960] and you're listening to this podcast,
[01:06.960 -> 01:08.800] thinking who else is listening?
[01:08.800 -> 01:11.720] Those are the kinds of people who are listening.
[01:11.720 -> 01:14.160] And today on this episode,
[01:14.160 -> 01:16.840] the final Gallagher Leadership Series episode,
[01:16.840 -> 01:19.120] you can hear this kind of conversation
[01:19.120 -> 01:20.820] from the High Performance Podcast.
[01:22.160 -> 01:24.720] If I fail in what I'm trying to do,
[01:24.720 -> 01:26.200] it will never be for lack of trying. I
[01:26.200 -> 01:32.680] was not a talented rugby player and not gifted particularly physically but the
[01:32.680 -> 01:36.920] thing you gotta have is if you're clear on what you want to do is if you fail
[01:36.920 -> 01:40.280] you're gonna be able to look yourself in the mirror and say it wasn't for lack of
[01:40.280 -> 01:45.960] trying so that's that's where I was driven by. Amazing what can be achieved when
[01:45.960 -> 01:51.600] nobody cares who gets the credit. And I don't know who said it, but I don't care who gets
[01:51.600 -> 01:56.720] credit. I just want the people I work with to just keep getting better, myself to get
[01:56.720 -> 02:02.840] better. I think one of the changes we've got is the players focusing upon now. And I'd
[02:02.840 -> 02:06.080] say that's one of the pleasing things, which just keep just focusing on now,
[02:06.080 -> 02:07.960] what can I do today to be better?
[02:09.320 -> 02:10.160] When someone comes in,
[02:10.160 -> 02:12.520] they're either giving energy or they're taking it.
[02:12.520 -> 02:14.000] Just nothing's neutral.
[02:14.000 -> 02:15.840] So you gotta give energy.
[02:15.840 -> 02:16.960] You gotta give energy to it.
[02:16.960 -> 02:18.120] You walk in a room,
[02:18.120 -> 02:19.400] you gotta give energy to that room.
[02:19.400 -> 02:21.120] You can't take energy away from it.
[02:22.560 -> 02:24.360] So joining us on this episode
[02:24.360 -> 02:47.280] is the head coach of the Leicester Tigers, Steve Borthwick. And the top of the table, energy away from it. and they're top of the table. So how much can I learn from someone who's been that successful? Well, we will of course talk about the successes
[02:47.280 -> 02:48.500] that Steve's endured along the way,
[02:48.500 -> 02:50.660] but we will also talk about the challenges
[02:50.660 -> 02:52.100] and the difficult times.
[02:52.100 -> 02:54.920] This is someone who dedicated so much of his life
[02:54.920 -> 02:56.420] to the sport that he ended up
[02:56.420 -> 02:59.020] not just getting more than 50 caps for England,
[02:59.020 -> 03:00.940] he ended up as England captain.
[03:00.940 -> 03:03.920] He ended up as the man who was selected as captain
[03:03.920 -> 03:09.300] by Martin Johnson, who of course is a leader and a legend in the world of rugby, which in itself is a
[03:09.300 -> 03:13.640] huge vote of confidence. But then he came under incredible criticism and it was a
[03:13.640 -> 03:16.920] challenging time for England rugby. We're going back over 10 years here but Steve
[03:16.920 -> 03:21.200] was at the centre of the storm. How did he deal with that? What was it like being
[03:21.200 -> 03:24.440] dragged through the press, being criticised, having your name called out?
[03:24.440 -> 03:25.040] What was it like when his international career was ended with injury? What was it like being dragged through the press, being criticised, having your name called out?
[03:28.240 -> 03:33.760] What was it like when his international career was ended with injury? What was it like when he finally decided that he wanted to go for it in the world of coaching,
[03:33.760 -> 03:36.480] and he found it challenging and demanding and difficult?
[03:36.480 -> 03:40.960] How does he make the decisions he makes on a daily basis to create a culture?
[03:40.960 -> 03:49.720] How does he spread one message that impacts so many different lives? There is a brilliant, brilliant story in here for teachers and for parents and
[03:49.720 -> 03:55.200] for young people and any leader across any walk of life. I'm so excited for you
[03:55.200 -> 03:57.960] to listen to this episode with Steve Borthwick. I thought it was really
[03:57.960 -> 04:02.200] thoughtful, really insightful and he's a really smart guy. I just want to say
[04:02.200 -> 04:07.800] though before we get going, these episodes, all three of them, would not be possible without the wonderful people at
[04:07.800 -> 04:11.280] Gallagher. Thank you to them so much for wanting to create the Gallagher
[04:11.280 -> 04:14.600] Leadership Series. If you don't know much about Gallagher, well they are your
[04:14.600 -> 04:18.920] trusted insurance broker and they work with small businesses, they work with the
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[04:53.360 -> 04:57.720] the proud title partner of Premiership Rugby, they've been doing that since 2018, but this
[04:57.720 -> 05:01.800] was really important for them to create this series because they wanted to give you for
[05:01.800 -> 05:05.600] free an opportunity to hear from leaders in rugby
[05:05.600 -> 05:09.380] and to realise that it isn't always as simple as it seems.
[05:09.380 -> 05:11.500] So, enjoy the episode.
[05:11.500 -> 05:13.620] Thanks very much for coming back for more.
[05:13.620 -> 05:16.360] It's the final conversation in the Gallagher Leadership
[05:16.360 -> 05:18.460] Series with the High Performance Podcast.
[05:22.560 -> 05:24.500] Well, Steve, welcome to High Performance
[05:24.500 -> 05:27.280] for a conversation about learning from experience.
[05:27.280 -> 05:33.560] It's lovely to have you with us. Let's start with, in your mind, what is high performance?
[05:33.560 -> 05:38.600] What is high performance? So firstly, thank you very much for having me on the podcast.
[05:38.600 -> 05:45.400] And I think I'd like to probably answer that question when I actually discover what it is, and I'm not sure I fully have.
[05:47.400 -> 05:48.520] From my point of view,
[05:53.080 -> 05:53.600] I'm pretty clear about what I want to work upon at any point in time,
[05:56.880 -> 05:57.200] and get really good people working really hard at it, and
[06:02.640 -> 06:03.480] then learning quickly as we go, and being able to adapt. And I'm not sure whether that's high performance,
[06:06.000 -> 06:08.000] because I think we're all striving to try and get there, and I'm not sure we ever actually achieve it. ac nid wyf yn siŵr y byddai hynny'n cyflog cyhoeddiol, oherwydd rydyn ni i gyd yn ymdrechu i gael hynny, ac nid wyf yn siŵr y byddwn ni'n gweithio'n gynnar.
[06:08.000 -> 06:09.000] Dydw i ddim yn gwybod.
[06:09.000 -> 06:11.000] Efallai byddwn i'n dweud wrthych pan dwi'n meddwl dwi wedi'i gynnwys,
[06:11.000 -> 06:12.000] ond dwi ddim yn meddwl dwi eisiau.
[06:12.000 -> 06:15.000] Felly, o fy mheini,
[06:15.000 -> 06:18.000] mae'n dod yn ôl i fod yn glir iawn ar yr amgylchedd,
[06:18.000 -> 06:20.000] yn glir ar y bobl rydych chi'n gweithio gyda,
[06:20.000 -> 06:23.000] mwynhau gweithio gyda nhw,
[06:23.000 -> 06:26.000] ond gweithio'n fawr iawn. Ac yna byddwn yn dweud,
[06:26.000 -> 06:28.000] un o'r pethau gyda hynny,
[06:28.000 -> 06:30.000] byddwn yn dweud,
[06:30.000 -> 06:32.000] y gallu o'r gallu
[06:32.000 -> 06:34.000] yw gallu newid yn gyflym.
[06:34.000 -> 06:36.000] Felly, dwi'n dda iawn i ddweud,
[06:36.000 -> 06:38.000] os ydw i'n ddifrifol,
[06:38.000 -> 06:40.000] ddifrifol a newid y peth yn gyflym.
[06:40.000 -> 06:42.000] Ac gadewch i ni gyrraedd hynny.
[06:42.000 -> 06:44.000] Iawn, a yw hyn yn gynhyrchol,
[06:44.000 -> 06:46.000] a yw'r definiad yn perfformiad fawr,
[06:46.000 -> 06:48.000] dwi ddim yn gwybod,
[06:48.000 -> 06:50.000] ond efallai un diwrnod byddwn yn gallu dweud i chi
[06:50.000 -> 06:52.000] yn fwy cyfathrebu lle mae'n ymwneud â hyn.
[06:52.000 -> 06:54.000] Wel, dechreuwch ar y pwynt honno
[06:54.000 -> 06:56.000] ynghylch ffeiliau a gwahaniaethau.
[06:56.000 -> 06:58.000] Gallwch chi pinpoint
[06:58.000 -> 07:00.000] y gwahaniaeth neu ffeiliau gwych
[07:00.000 -> 07:02.000] y byddwch chi wedi dysgu llawer o'i gyrfa?
[07:02.000 -> 07:04.000] Dwi'n dweud
[07:04.000 -> 07:06.600] bod yna gwahaniaethau i gyd. you learned a lot from? I'd say there was mistakes all the way along.
[07:06.600 -> 07:08.040] Some I've learned quicker than others,
[07:08.040 -> 07:12.120] and probably one of the biggest aspects in my development
[07:12.120 -> 07:14.160] was treating things as learnings
[07:14.160 -> 07:15.680] rather than getting stuck in a way.
[07:15.680 -> 07:17.000] You go through those spells
[07:17.000 -> 07:19.600] and you think you're doing it right,
[07:19.600 -> 07:21.880] and you can't believe why it's not working out,
[07:21.880 -> 07:23.680] and maybe you just got to be a bit more adaptable
[07:23.680 -> 07:24.720] than what you were.
[07:24.720 -> 07:30.560] I can think of experiences when I was a schoolboy, captain in my schoolboy team and making mistakes
[07:30.560 -> 07:36.080] there and thinking, crikey, I've got to do this differently. Because that right from back then,
[07:36.080 -> 07:39.960] I was always thinking about how do we get, how do we get better? How do we absolutely get better?
[07:39.960 -> 07:45.000] I remember winning a schoolboy rugby game andatiad o 40 pwynt,
[07:45.000 -> 07:49.000] a'r chwarae ddiweddar, gofyn i'r dysgwyr i ddod allan o'r ystafell,
[07:49.000 -> 07:54.000] oherwydd roeddwn i eisiau cyfathrebu'r chwaraeon mewn person, oherwydd nid oedd o'n dda o gyfathrebu.
[07:54.000 -> 07:58.000] Roeddwn i'n 17 neu 16 oed, dwi ddim yn cofio pa fyddwn i,
[07:58.000 -> 08:01.000] a'n dweud, rydyn ni i gyd yn gwneud gwasanaeth ar y diwrnod,
[08:01.000 -> 08:03.000] rydw i eisiau chi yno, oherwydd dydyn ni ddim yn dda o hynny.
[08:03.000 -> 08:06.000] Ond yna rydych chi'n sylwi, efallai ywdiolchgar i'r gwaith. Mae'n angen i mi fod yn ymdrech i'r ffordd mwy ymdrech. Felly rydw i'n ceisio ddysgu, wrth fy mod i,
[08:06.000 -> 08:08.000] o ran bod yn ymdrech ychydig yn fwy.
[08:08.000 -> 08:10.000] Ond gallwn ni eich gynnal yn ôl i'r 17-oed
[08:10.000 -> 08:12.000] yn y staff ddressing?
[08:12.000 -> 08:14.000] Oherwydd, chi'n gwybod, fel coach,
[08:14.000 -> 08:16.000] mae hwn yn eithaf utopia
[08:16.000 -> 08:18.000] ar gyfer grwp o chwaraewyr
[08:18.000 -> 08:20.000] fel hyn i'w drifo'r un arall
[08:20.000 -> 08:22.000] i wella'r standard.
[08:22.000 -> 08:24.000] Felly, ddechreuodd hynny ddod o'r ffordd?
[08:24.000 -> 08:26.360] Mae'r ddewis i'r ffynonellau yn y ffynonellau yma, utopia for a player-led group like that
[08:23.360 -> 08:28.640] to be driving each other on to improve
[08:26.360 -> 08:31.760] standards. So where did that come from?
[08:28.640 -> 08:33.800] That willingness to stand out and demand
[08:31.760 -> 08:36.680] higher standards from your own peer group?
[08:33.800 -> 08:39.040] I just wanted to win. I remember this
[08:36.680 -> 08:42.160] period, going back a few years before
[08:39.040 -> 08:44.120] that, I remember I was 14 years old and the
[08:42.160 -> 08:46.680] reason I remember I was 14 years old at
[08:44.120 -> 08:48.320] this point because you could become a member of the local gym
[08:48.320 -> 08:51.200] in the leisure center when you were 14 years old.
[08:51.200 -> 08:53.400] And I remember that point, why I remember this,
[08:53.400 -> 08:56.960] because I said, I dreamed of playing for England.
[08:56.960 -> 08:59.240] And I was just a kid.
[08:59.240 -> 09:00.560] I'd only been playing rugby.
[09:00.560 -> 09:01.640] I'd only picked a rugby ball up
[09:01.640 -> 09:03.320] for the first time when I was 11.
[09:03.320 -> 09:05.000] So I'd been playing rugby three years and I dreamed of playing for England. And I'd used to watch rugby ball for the first time when I was 11. So I'd been playing rugby three years,
[09:05.000 -> 09:07.000] and I dreamed of playing for England,
[09:07.000 -> 09:09.000] and I'd used to watch England play on the TV,
[09:09.000 -> 09:12.000] and I used to get, when they sang the national anthem,
[09:12.000 -> 09:14.000] the hairs on the back of your neck would stand up.
[09:14.000 -> 09:16.000] And I remember why I'm telling this,
[09:16.000 -> 09:18.000] because I used to go into that gym when I was 14 years old
[09:18.000 -> 09:22.000] and said to myself, I'd set myself these ridiculous targets
[09:22.000 -> 09:24.000] on the rowing machine or the runner or whatever it was,
[09:24.000 -> 09:28.960] because I had no idea about how to train properly. You'd say, if I don't make this,
[09:28.960 -> 09:32.640] I will never play for England. It didn't matter what it was, you'd find a way of making it,
[09:32.640 -> 09:37.760] you'd fall off the rower or fall, you just... And that was the thing I always said to myself was,
[09:38.480 -> 09:42.240] if I fail in what I'm trying to do, it will never be for lack of trying.
[09:42.880 -> 09:45.000] I was not a talented rugby player, not gifted particularly physically, but the thing you got i'w wneud, byddai'n ddifrifol am ddifrifol. Dydw i ddim yn chwaraewyr rugby talant,
[09:45.000 -> 09:48.000] ddim yn ddifrifol, yn enwedig yn ffysical,
[09:48.000 -> 09:51.000] ond mae'r peth y mae'n rhaid i chi ei wneud,
[09:51.000 -> 09:53.000] os ydych chi'n glir ar yr hyn rydych chi eisiau ei wneud,
[09:53.000 -> 09:54.000] yw os ydych chi'n gill,
[09:54.000 -> 09:56.000] mae'n rhaid i chi edrych ar eich hunain yn y mirror
[09:56.000 -> 09:58.000] a dweud nad oedd e'n ddifrifol am ddifrifol.
[09:58.000 -> 10:00.000] Felly dyna lle roeddwn i'n ymdrech.
[10:00.000 -> 10:02.000] Ond yna, sut wnaethon chi ei ddifrifo
[10:02.000 -> 10:11.000] ar y stage o bywyd ymdrechol hwnnw, gyda'r angen i fod yn ddod yn dda ac i fod yn dda, gyda'r amser i ddod i ffwrdd ac i ddod allan?
[10:11.000 -> 10:15.000] Mae hwnna'n eithaf ddifrifol i mi.
[10:15.000 -> 10:25.080] Yn y cymdeithasau'n cymdeithasol, roedd pobl yn cael eu hollol drwy bethau gwahanol, ac mae pobl yn gwahanol. People are driven by different things and people are different and if you
[10:25.080 -> 10:30.200] treat everybody the same it doesn't it doesn't work so in this journey we're on
[10:30.200 -> 10:34.080] and as I keep trying to learn is how do I do things better? Which just comes
[10:34.080 -> 10:38.520] back to the first question you asked me and I wasn't trying to wasn't trying to
[10:38.520 -> 10:42.600] be clever or anything we try, Leicester Tigers try to run the best program we
[10:42.600 -> 10:45.320] possibly can, get good people around.
[10:45.840 -> 10:49.560] And then I've got, I think I'm generally pretty good at saying when I've got it
[10:49.560 -> 10:52.280] wrong or quickly learning and doing it better.
[10:52.280 -> 10:53.920] Cause we keep just trying to do it better.
[10:54.160 -> 10:57.280] We're only just 20 months into what we're trying to do here.
[10:57.680 -> 11:00.680] And so in 20 months, we're trying to cover a lot of ground quickly.
[11:00.720 -> 11:03.680] So you've got to learn fast and that's, that's probably goes all the way back.
[11:03.760 -> 11:10.000] I'm again, still really clear on what I want to do and if we fail it won't be for lack of trying,
[11:10.000 -> 11:13.000] but we'll learn fast, we'll learn really fast.
[11:13.000 -> 11:15.000] And how do you feel now about being popular?
[11:15.000 -> 11:20.000] Because when you're the coach of one of the biggest rugby clubs in the country
[11:20.000 -> 11:25.240] and you want to get those players onside, but also you do have to please the fans
[11:25.240 -> 11:26.920] and please the board and please the media,
[11:26.920 -> 11:28.760] or at least some people do.
[11:28.760 -> 11:30.280] Is there an element of your decision-making
[11:30.280 -> 11:33.440] that comes down to how will that play out with other people?
[11:33.440 -> 11:34.680] I mean, in the position I'm in,
[11:34.680 -> 11:37.600] I can't, you can't please all the people all the time.
[11:37.600 -> 11:41.320] Every week, I've got all these great rugby players
[11:41.320 -> 11:42.560] who all want to play,
[11:42.560 -> 11:44.600] and I can only pick 15 of them in the starting team
[11:44.600 -> 11:46.760] and then eight of them to come on and finish the game.
[11:46.760 -> 11:49.000] So inevitably there are going to be people
[11:49.000 -> 11:50.280] that are disappointed.
[11:50.280 -> 11:53.800] And the biggest thing in terms of that
[11:53.800 -> 11:56.920] will be treating people respectfully.
[11:56.920 -> 11:58.680] I want to treat people respectfully.
[11:58.680 -> 12:02.560] And then I want myself, my coaches to be treated respectfully
[12:02.560 -> 12:04.520] because we're going to make mistakes.
[12:04.520 -> 12:08.000] And we're going to, we're, but we're all trying to be, to do the right thing.
[12:08.000 -> 12:09.200] We're trying to get better.
[12:09.400 -> 12:11.800] I'm trying to do the right thing by people.
[12:12.000 -> 12:17.300] And then for the supporters, and I'd say they don't expect us to win every game,
[12:17.800 -> 12:20.600] but I do want to make sure they're proud of their team.
[12:21.000 -> 12:25.680] And this, and I say this consistently to the players you've got
[12:25.680 -> 12:30.320] to be proud of what you do. It doesn't mean you're gonna win and I told them a
[12:30.320 -> 12:38.280] story about the 2000 and I think it was 2011 Premiership Final and I was playing
[12:38.280 -> 12:45.840] a captain in Saracens and the the clock had run dead and we're defending on our own goal line.
[12:45.840 -> 12:49.020] And I think we're winning by four points.
[12:49.880 -> 12:52.580] So they can't kick a penalty goal to win.
[12:52.580 -> 12:54.440] They need to score a try to win.
[12:54.440 -> 12:56.640] And they had a player,
[12:56.640 -> 12:59.240] my memory's vague,
[12:59.240 -> 13:01.280] was one of the two Langley boys on the touchline,
[13:01.280 -> 13:02.280] a brilliant player.
[13:02.280 -> 13:04.040] And if they'd got the ball to him,
[13:04.040 -> 13:05.400] cause we were defending our own goal line for about
[13:05.400 -> 13:08.640] eight minutes afterwards, after the 80 minutes was up.
[13:09.240 -> 13:12.240] And if they'd got the ball to him, we weren't going to be able to stop him.
[13:12.920 -> 13:17.160] But they couldn't get, they say, if somebody had managed to pull off one miracle pass,
[13:17.160 -> 13:20.080] they win, we lose, but they didn't pull off that pass.
[13:20.120 -> 13:21.400] So we won, they lost.
[13:21.920 -> 13:26.560] And I said, the boys, you can't be defined by
[13:26.560 -> 13:28.600] whether that pass happens or not.
[13:28.600 -> 13:30.640] You just can't live your life like that.
[13:30.640 -> 13:33.800] So suddenly, yes, I'd have been, I'm happy we won.
[13:33.800 -> 13:35.400] I'd have been sad if we'd lost,
[13:35.400 -> 13:37.920] but you can't go around built on
[13:37.920 -> 13:39.240] whether a pass happens or not.
[13:39.240 -> 13:41.000] You got to say, right, we put in something
[13:41.000 -> 13:41.840] we're real proud of.
[13:41.840 -> 13:43.440] We did everything we possibly could.
[13:43.440 -> 13:45.800] Today it was good enough or it wasn't good enough,
[13:45.800 -> 13:47.400] but either way, we're going to get better.
[13:47.400 -> 13:51.720] And that's very much kind of the message I have.
[13:51.720 -> 13:53.240] I want to try my best
[13:53.240 -> 13:56.920] and I want to treat people respectfully
[13:56.920 -> 13:59.560] and I want the supporters to be proud of their team.
[13:59.560 -> 14:00.480] And if we could do that,
[14:00.480 -> 14:02.840] I think we're a long way towards success.
[14:02.840 -> 14:04.240] Well, let me take you back then, Steve,
[14:04.240 -> 14:06.880] to that 14 year old ambition
[14:06.880 -> 14:09.360] that you had to go and play for England.
[14:09.360 -> 14:11.320] And then when you finally got there,
[14:11.320 -> 14:12.520] and not only did you play for them,
[14:12.520 -> 14:16.000] but you're captaining them during that 2008
[14:16.000 -> 14:17.000] Autumn International,
[14:17.000 -> 14:19.760] and then the Six Nations a year after.
[14:19.760 -> 14:23.480] Now, you almost seem to be scapegoated a lot there
[14:23.480 -> 14:28.520] for the wider performance of that England team.
[14:28.520 -> 14:31.320] So how did you deal with that at that time?
[14:31.320 -> 14:32.560] So you've achieved an ambition
[14:32.560 -> 14:33.560] and then you're getting hammered
[14:33.560 -> 14:35.240] and you're demanding this idea
[14:35.240 -> 14:36.920] of being treated with respect.
[14:36.920 -> 14:39.320] Tell us about how you process that.
[14:39.320 -> 14:42.800] You can probably tell here as we chat
[14:42.800 -> 14:47.440] that I care about people being treated with respect,
[14:47.440 -> 14:49.840] I care about treating people respectfully.
[14:49.840 -> 14:54.640] We're all the sum of our experiences and going through those experiences of
[14:54.640 -> 15:01.600] captaining my country, that's informed me and the way I go about things now.
[15:01.600 -> 15:05.440] We can't just go through absolutely good times,
[15:05.440 -> 15:07.320] win all the time and just learn from those.
[15:07.320 -> 15:09.160] There's other times, there's tough times.
[15:09.160 -> 15:12.560] And the fact was, I was able to play for England
[15:12.560 -> 15:14.560] and I was captain in my country.
[15:14.560 -> 15:16.320] And yeah, it was a challenging period.
[15:16.320 -> 15:18.960] It was most definitely a challenging period.
[15:18.960 -> 15:20.840] I wanted us to win more games.
[15:20.840 -> 15:23.000] We all wanted us to win more games and we didn't.
[15:23.000 -> 15:27.200] And I remember the team hotel one day walking back
[15:27.200 -> 15:30.360] into my room, thinking to myself,
[15:30.360 -> 15:32.960] it was certainly a tough period and you're thinking
[15:32.960 -> 15:35.760] how to get through this, what's going on,
[15:35.760 -> 15:38.120] what's the next term, what's happening next?
[15:38.120 -> 15:40.840] And you go, you think about it in six months time
[15:40.840 -> 15:44.280] or in a year's time, this isn't gonna feel like this.
[15:44.280 -> 15:47.240] The rawness of these emotions is not going to be there.
[15:47.240 -> 15:48.880] And this is gonna be,
[15:48.880 -> 15:51.160] you're gonna be better one way or another
[15:51.160 -> 15:52.380] for going through this.
[15:52.380 -> 15:55.080] Ultimately, did I make mistakes?
[15:55.080 -> 15:56.600] Is Captain World mistakes made?
[15:56.600 -> 15:58.440] Yeah, they absolutely were.
[15:58.440 -> 15:59.840] Would I want them to win more games?
[15:59.840 -> 16:00.680] Yeah.
[16:00.680 -> 16:02.000] There's very few people around
[16:02.000 -> 16:04.320] to be bigger supporters of the England rugby team than me.
[16:04.320 -> 16:09.000] So I want England, whether I was a player, whether I was a captain, a coach, wherever, I just want the England team to win.
[16:09.000 -> 16:17.000] Those experiences kind of definitely shape the way you think and it informs you for the future.
[16:17.000 -> 16:27.720] What was the criticism, Steve, in that period that either stung you the most or kind of represented how little empathy some people can have for others?
[16:27.800 -> 16:30.640] I wouldn't particularly say that there was one thing
[16:30.640 -> 16:35.640] that stung, I'd probably say that the team lacked alignment.
[16:38.120 -> 16:41.120] The team, the whole period we were in there
[16:41.120 -> 16:43.600] lacked an alignment about what we were trying to do
[16:43.600 -> 16:45.000] and how we were going about it and
[16:46.240 -> 16:49.640] That then made things very difficult and as captain
[16:49.640 -> 16:55.260] I'm I have to take a large amount of responsibility for that and and I do the the
[16:55.840 -> 17:01.200] The aspect is you got to play well and as a captain if you if you got your place in the team
[17:01.360 -> 17:05.880] Questioned and that's what was you your place and questioned, and it was very hard to lead.
[17:05.880 -> 17:07.040] You've got to play well.
[17:07.040 -> 17:08.440] So people ask me about leadership,
[17:08.440 -> 17:11.520] and firstly, play well.
[17:11.520 -> 17:12.960] And I think that's,
[17:12.960 -> 17:15.560] so Martin Johnson was in charge at that point in time,
[17:15.560 -> 17:17.080] and I think it's something he'd said
[17:17.080 -> 17:20.240] as when he was post 2003.
[17:20.240 -> 17:22.000] So what's the first, as captain,
[17:22.000 -> 17:22.840] what do you think?
[17:22.840 -> 17:24.160] First thing, play well.
[17:24.160 -> 17:27.000] So first thing about leaders, you've got to play well.
[17:27.000 -> 17:30.440] And so from my point of view, I want to play better.
[17:30.440 -> 17:32.760] And what about now, when you're in charge at Leicester,
[17:32.760 -> 17:36.160] what are the key lessons from that time specifically?
[17:36.160 -> 17:40.240] You said, you know, it informed the way that you lead and manage now.
[17:40.240 -> 17:46.560] The way I try and do my job now is informed by millions of different things
[17:46.560 -> 17:52.000] and experiences along the way and that was just one small period. That was a
[17:52.000 -> 17:57.760] two-year period from 2008 to 2010. I was fortunate to play 16 years
[17:57.760 -> 18:02.320] professionally and then I used to move off to Japan and coached the Japan team
[18:02.320 -> 18:09.800] and coached a different country. then came back met all kinds of different coaches on that journey and everyone's a
[18:09.800 -> 18:13.680] teacher in some way. I learned so much of my little boys, I've got two little boys
[18:13.680 -> 18:19.920] and I learned enormous amounts of them. Like what for example? Going back to last
[18:19.920 -> 18:25.280] summer and I said this to the team because this made me think, going back to
[18:25.280 -> 18:31.920] last summer, we had a paddling pool on just in the patio and my two little boys said
[18:31.920 -> 18:36.880] will you get in the paddling pool with us? And I said of course, yeah, of course you do.
[18:36.880 -> 18:47.880] Nice sunny day and the water's freezing. And I am quite literally just dipping my toe
[18:47.920 -> 18:50.780] in just starting to try and get into this paddling pool.
[18:51.680 -> 18:56.520] And my two little boys sprint past me,
[18:56.520 -> 19:00.840] just jumping water spraying you and freezing cold.
[19:00.840 -> 19:02.680] And they could not care less.
[19:02.680 -> 19:05.760] They're just freezing cold and it takes their breath away
[19:05.760 -> 19:06.640] and you can see them,
[19:06.640 -> 19:08.760] I guess it's a cold part of the panel
[19:08.760 -> 19:10.700] and I thought to myself,
[19:11.800 -> 19:12.960] here I am,
[19:14.280 -> 19:16.440] we are 40 or 42 now
[19:16.440 -> 19:18.040] and you dip your toe in
[19:18.040 -> 19:21.320] cause you're worried cause it's gonna be cold or whatever.
[19:21.320 -> 19:24.040] And the two little boys just don't know it
[19:24.040 -> 19:25.280] but don't care just jump
[19:25.280 -> 19:31.480] in and and when you look at it I said this that's it I said boys like you can
[19:31.480 -> 19:35.440] dip your toe into what we're trying to do here you can dip your toe in or you
[19:35.440 -> 19:40.960] can just jump right in and we'll have some interesting experiences but let's
[19:40.960 -> 19:46.320] try it let's try and jump right in like the little kids do probably like when you were just a and I don't
[19:46.320 -> 19:49.000] You Damian you boxed didn't you? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
[19:49.000 -> 19:51.600] I don't know whether you still get in the ring
[19:51.600 -> 19:56.760] I don't know whether you but when you're just a little kid and you just jump I grew up playing football
[19:56.760 -> 20:03.680] I know I wanted to I only wanted to be a professional footballer. I just dreamed of playing for Preston North End and
[20:06.480 -> 20:11.920] footballer. I just dreamed of playing for Preston North End and the mistakes you don't care, you just want to play. And you set up little leagues and you play football in the street, you don't care,
[20:11.920 -> 20:16.080] let's just play. And then suddenly you start thinking about all the what-ifs and all the
[20:16.080 -> 20:20.800] mistakes and you start just dipping your toe in. And when does that start? When did that start for
[20:20.800 -> 20:26.920] you that, that maybe that cautiousness or not, not going all in, as one of our previous guests,
[20:26.920 -> 20:28.280] Steven Gerrard said?
[20:28.280 -> 20:30.000] I don't fully know, but I think it's harder
[20:30.000 -> 20:33.880] for young people these days than it was when I was a player.
[20:33.880 -> 20:36.240] You know, young people these days have got
[20:36.240 -> 20:38.120] all the different things with social media
[20:38.120 -> 20:40.920] and aspects that they're just getting scrutinized
[20:40.920 -> 20:43.520] far more than ever before.
[20:43.520 -> 20:47.040] And so things go well, they get praised, things go badly.
[20:47.040 -> 20:51.120] And the reality is, you're never that good
[20:51.120 -> 20:52.160] and you're never that bad.
[20:52.160 -> 20:53.440] It's always somewhere in the middle.
[20:53.440 -> 20:55.800] But you hear stories about sports
[20:55.800 -> 20:58.000] where players checking phones at halftime,
[20:58.000 -> 20:58.840] checking social media.
[20:58.840 -> 21:00.360] I've heard that, and I'm thankful.
[21:00.360 -> 21:02.760] That ain't never happened in the changing room I've been in.
[21:02.760 -> 21:05.680] But I've heard, you hear these things and you think, wow.
[21:05.680 -> 21:09.800] And so where it starts, I don't know,
[21:09.800 -> 21:13.000] but that, the innocence of that use,
[21:13.000 -> 21:15.040] where they start, people start overthinking things.
[21:15.040 -> 21:18.000] Let's just jump right in and let's have a real go at things.
[21:18.000 -> 21:20.100] And if we get it wrong, we'll learn.
[21:20.100 -> 21:23.220] And we'll, but let's properly have a go.
[21:23.220 -> 21:26.320] Can I just ask then, Steve, for people listening to this,
[21:26.320 -> 21:28.720] what advice from the way that you've got your players
[21:28.720 -> 21:31.800] to think in that way, would you pass on to teachers
[21:31.800 -> 21:34.440] and to leaders in business and to parents
[21:34.440 -> 21:36.760] that are struggling to, you know, they just say,
[21:36.760 -> 21:37.880] come on, just go for it.
[21:37.880 -> 21:40.120] But it's difficult for people to just do that
[21:40.120 -> 21:41.480] when you just tell them to do that.
[21:41.480 -> 21:44.560] I'd be interested to know whether there's any techniques
[21:44.560 -> 21:47.720] that you've employed effectively to give your players,
[21:47.720 -> 21:50.760] which I guess is probably freedom as much as anything else.
[21:50.760 -> 21:52.640] Isn't it mental freedom?
[21:52.640 -> 21:55.960] So my boys, the boys like to climb.
[21:55.960 -> 21:57.160] So if you go for a walk,
[21:57.160 -> 21:59.320] if you find a tree, they want to climb a tree.
[21:59.320 -> 22:00.280] The bit inside you is going,
[22:00.280 -> 22:02.240] I don't want them to climb that tree
[22:02.240 -> 22:04.400] because that's a high tree
[22:04.400 -> 22:05.560] and you want them to come down and you don't want them up there tree because that's a high tree. And you want them to come down
[22:05.560 -> 22:06.480] and you don't want them up there
[22:06.480 -> 22:07.840] because if they fall, they're going to get hurt.
[22:07.840 -> 22:11.100] And you're going, but they need to climb a tree.
[22:11.100 -> 22:12.480] And they want to climb a tree.
[22:12.480 -> 22:15.680] And if I just let them get to six foot off the ground
[22:15.680 -> 22:17.080] because then I can hold onto them the whole time,
[22:17.080 -> 22:19.240] then they're probably not going to get very high
[22:19.240 -> 22:21.000] in other aspects of life.
[22:21.000 -> 22:23.600] But you're still there underneath them.
[22:23.600 -> 22:26.080] And you're thinking even if'n 15 oed,
[22:26.080 -> 22:27.680] ydych chi'n dal yno a mynd,
[22:27.680 -> 22:29.160] byddwn i'n ei gael.
[22:29.160 -> 22:30.720] Byddwn i'n ei gael.
[22:30.720 -> 22:32.400] Ond nid ydyn nhw'n gwybod hynny.
[22:32.400 -> 22:35.360] Ydych chi'n gwneud iddo.
[22:35.360 -> 22:37.520] Ac rwy'n credu, o ran fy nghyfeiriad,
[22:37.520 -> 22:40.880] mae'n hyrwyddo'r chwaraewyr
[22:40.880 -> 22:44.400] i roi'r mwyaf i'w hunain i'w hunain.
[22:44.400 -> 22:45.280] I ddeall bod yna ddifrifnau the players to give the very best of themselves,
[22:47.960 -> 22:49.120] to understand that there are going to be mistakes and they aren't because we want to push it
[22:49.120 -> 22:50.960] to the edge of their abilities.
[22:50.960 -> 22:52.520] So things are going to go wrong,
[22:52.520 -> 22:55.320] but then they're not going to be judged by that.
[22:55.320 -> 22:57.320] They're not going to be defined by that.
[22:57.320 -> 22:59.640] That we're going to say,
[22:59.640 -> 23:02.360] I'm going to treat you all, every player here equally.
[23:02.360 -> 23:03.520] I'm going to treat you all differently,
[23:03.520 -> 23:06.400] but I'm going to treat everybody here equally.
[23:06.400 -> 23:08.800] And there's some things that are going to be non-negotiable,
[23:08.800 -> 23:11.520] but I want you to try your hardest.
[23:11.520 -> 23:15.680] And if you drop a ball, then I'll try and coach you better.
[23:15.680 -> 23:17.600] But then your challenge is, you say these things
[23:17.600 -> 23:19.600] and they're looking at you going,
[23:19.600 -> 23:20.780] you might be saying that, Steve,
[23:20.780 -> 23:22.520] but I know that if I mess up in training,
[23:22.520 -> 23:24.440] I don't make the team come the weekend.
[23:24.440 -> 23:28.360] That's the challenge for you is to to provide that
[23:28.360 -> 23:32.680] safety blanket for them isn't it but then still make the tough decisions.
[23:32.680 -> 23:39.280] Yeah that's that's the environment really everybody signs up to it. Nobody
[23:39.280 -> 23:45.880] forced me to want to play for England. Nobody forced me to accept being captain, nobody
[23:45.880 -> 23:50.520] forced me to be Leicester Tigers head coach, nobody forces you to do any of that.
[23:50.520 -> 23:56.840] We have agency over what we do, so players want to get involved in what we
[23:56.840 -> 24:01.800] do, it's tough. We're privileged. People say, they talk about sportsmen being
[24:01.800 -> 24:05.480] lucky, somebody said that to me very early in my career, you're lucky, and I said I'm not sure I'm Mae pobl yn dweud, mae'n siarad am y sportio oedd yn ddod yn ffordd. Rhywun i wedi dweud hynny i mi yn y cyfnod yn gyntaf, dywedodd, rydych yn ddod yn ffordd.
[24:05.480 -> 24:07.480] Ac rydw i wedi dweud, rwy'n siŵr bod fi'n ddod yn ffordd.
[24:07.480 -> 24:09.480] Ac rydw i wedi dweud, rydw i'n gweithio'n ffyrdd iawn.
[24:09.480 -> 24:11.480] Rydw i'n cyfrifol i wneud yr hyn rydw i'n ei wneud.
[24:11.480 -> 24:14.480] Rydw i'n cyfrifol i gael y cyfle i wneud yr hyn rydw i'n ei wneud.
[24:14.480 -> 24:18.000] Ac rydyn ni'n cymryd rhan yn y sport cymdeithasol drwy'r blwyddynau diwethaf
[24:18.000 -> 24:21.480] pan oedd y rhan fawr o gymdeithas yn gwbl wedi bod yn llwyr.
[24:21.480 -> 24:22.480] Yn llwyr, yn llwyr.
[24:22.480 -> 24:25.000] Mae'r sport profesynol wedi gallu cymryd rhan. Felly dyna'r cyfrifol. Felly rydyn ni'n cyfrifol mae ymdrechion y sport yn gallu cynyddu.
[24:25.000 -> 24:27.000] Dyna'r cyfle.
[24:27.000 -> 24:29.000] Felly, rydym yn cyfle i wneud yr hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud.
[24:29.000 -> 24:31.000] Yn y cyfnod hwn,
[24:31.000 -> 24:36.000] mae'n rhaid i ni gynhyrchu'r cymdeithas i'r cyhoeddiad cyhoeddi.
[24:36.000 -> 24:38.000] Byddwn i eisiau bod yn chwaraewr rhywbeth gweithiol.
[24:38.000 -> 24:39.000] Byddwn i eisiau chwarae.
[24:39.000 -> 24:40.000] Dydw i ddim.
[24:40.000 -> 24:41.000] Dydw i ddim yn gallu ei wneud yn fysig,
[24:41.000 -> 24:42.000] felly dyw e ddim yn gwneud e.
[24:42.000 -> 24:45.440] Rwy'n meddwl ymhellach mae'n dod yn ôl i'r cwestiwn, rwy'n eisiau i'r chwaraewr fod yn yr holl gwaith y gallan nhw fod, ac yna rwy'n eisiau ceisio gwella'r lefel. I can't physically do it, so you stop doing it. I suppose where it comes back to your question is,
[24:45.440 -> 24:47.280] I want the players to be the best they can be.
[24:47.280 -> 24:49.440] And then I want to try and improve that level.
[24:49.440 -> 24:52.000] My job as a coach is to try and get them to be the best
[24:52.000 -> 24:53.880] and then improve that level.
[24:53.880 -> 24:57.240] Then ultimately they know there's only 15 shirts
[24:57.240 -> 24:58.640] to start the game.
[24:58.640 -> 25:02.080] So everyone's working towards being one of the best
[25:02.080 -> 25:03.760] to be in that 15.
[25:03.760 -> 25:06.040] Now, Steve, I know you're like,
[25:06.040 -> 25:08.200] like speaking to people that we're having,
[25:08.200 -> 25:09.360] like friends we have in common,
[25:09.360 -> 25:13.240] they tell me about your real detail focus,
[25:13.240 -> 25:16.560] your willingness to look at everything.
[25:16.560 -> 25:18.880] And I also like that when you were at Saracens,
[25:18.880 -> 25:21.320] you had that measuring your game review
[25:21.320 -> 25:24.120] of the shit that nobody else sees.
[25:24.120 -> 25:26.800] So I'm interested of what are the details meysio'r ystod o'r gêm i chi o'r peth na ddywedodd nhw eraill. Felly rydw i'n ddiddorol o'r deunyddau
[25:26.800 -> 25:32.960] y byddai'r rhai o ni allan o'ch byd ddim yn gweld, sy'n y pethau sy'n gwneud y gwahanol gwahanol
[25:32.960 -> 25:38.560] wrth fynd i'r tîm i'w hir i gyflwyniad cyhoeddi. Rwy'n hoffi'r syniad y mae'n ddweud, fel y
[25:38.560 -> 25:42.640] cyflawniad Albert Einstein, nad yw popeth sy'n gallu cael ei gynllunio ac nad yw popeth sy'n gallu cael
[25:42.640 -> 25:49.000] ei gynllunio yn canolig. Felly rydw i'n ddiddorol odod o'r ffordd a nid yw'r holl beth sy'n gallu cael ei ddod o'r ffordd yn cyflawni. Felly rwy'n mwynhau, mewn cyfnod o, fel yw, yn y sport dydd-nes, gallwch chi medru,
[25:49.000 -> 25:53.000] mae gennych GPS, mae gennych stats a ffactau yn dod allan o'ch uchelgais.
[25:53.000 -> 25:57.000] Sut ydych chi'n ymwneud â'r brifysgol a'n mynd, dyna'r peth a fydd yn dweud wrthi i mi a ydym wedi cael
[25:57.000 -> 26:02.000] y gydaith y gweithiau rydych chi wedi ei ddweud oedd yn rhaid eu gosod, pan oeddech chi'n ynglyn â'r captain.
[26:02.000 -> 26:05.400] Os ddweudais am y period hwn, y 20 mlynedd diwethaf
[26:05.400 -> 26:07.400] rydw i wedi bod yn Leicester Tigers,
[26:09.120 -> 26:11.360] yna rydw i wedi cael rhai ddweud wrthym
[26:11.360 -> 26:12.560] cyn i mi ddechrau.
[26:13.800 -> 26:14.880] Roedd e'n dweud,
[26:16.080 -> 26:17.280] Leicester Tigers,
[26:18.040 -> 26:19.960] roedd e'n dweud, mae teimed yn mynd allan
[26:19.960 -> 26:20.960] ac
[26:20.960 -> 26:23.360] dim byd yn gallu bod
[26:23.360 -> 26:24.920] ymlaen o'r wir
[26:24.920 -> 26:25.000] mewn ffordd y byddwn i'n mynd i lle rydw i eisiau bod And nothing could be further from the truth
[26:25.000 -> 26:29.440] in the way that I go about what I want to be
[26:29.440 -> 26:31.640] and how I want to be to be a team that goes away.
[26:31.640 -> 26:33.260] So that's before I started.
[26:33.260 -> 26:35.940] So pretty much on the first day I started,
[26:35.940 -> 26:38.140] I said, this is how we're seen.
[26:39.400 -> 26:40.240] This is how we're seen.
[26:40.240 -> 26:41.620] And if you're a team that goes away,
[26:41.620 -> 26:42.620] you can't be proud of it.
[26:42.620 -> 26:43.900] You can't be proud of what you're doing.
[26:43.900 -> 26:45.800] And you can't, you don't really support us. How can you support us, be proud if you're a team that goes away, you can't be proud of what you're doing. And you can't, you're not gonna support us.
[26:45.800 -> 26:47.560] How can you support us, be proud if you're a team
[26:47.560 -> 26:48.520] that go away?
[26:48.520 -> 26:49.960] So boys, some Leicester Tigers.
[26:49.960 -> 26:53.480] So this is, I played against Leicester Tigers a lot of times.
[26:53.480 -> 26:56.320] The toughest, sometimes you won, sometimes you lost.
[26:56.320 -> 26:59.320] More often than not, you lost against them.
[27:00.400 -> 27:03.080] But crikey, you knew it was gonna be a tough game.
[27:03.080 -> 27:05.400] And I said, guys, I'll talk about tactics.
[27:05.400 -> 27:07.400] I'll talk about our training methodology.
[27:07.400 -> 27:10.480] I'll talk about the techniques we're going to use.
[27:10.480 -> 27:12.840] And I said, but the thing,
[27:14.000 -> 27:16.120] we can't be a team that goes away.
[27:16.120 -> 27:19.440] And, and so you can measure that to some extent,
[27:19.440 -> 27:20.640] because I went and looked at it,
[27:20.640 -> 27:23.360] and I've looked at it in, in the two years previous,
[27:23.360 -> 27:48.760] 12 times the team had been in winning positions and lost the game. So, so you can measure it. Iawn, i gyd, a gafodd y rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o' cultural architects, the people that will distribute your message around the team even when you're not with them. How do you go about assessing the right kind of
[27:48.760 -> 27:50.680] people to be in your space?
[27:50.680 -> 27:53.160] One of the things I've found here is surround yourself
[27:53.160 -> 27:59.320] with people who know more than you, are better than you at things and then
[27:59.320 -> 28:06.800] are gonna be willing to point things out to you, so I'm fortunate. There's there's people I have around us that
[28:07.720 -> 28:09.720] Good Alid Walters
[28:10.720 -> 28:13.640] He's a brilliant coach brilliant person and
[28:14.560 -> 28:18.420] It has such an incredible feel so you are right
[28:18.420 -> 28:24.420] I'm gonna this guy thinks differently to this guy thinks different to me and I want to trust his view and I think he's incredible
[28:24.420 -> 28:27.720] So I'm fortunate Kevin Sinfield who we've mentioned, who I
[28:27.720 -> 28:31.560] could talk about his coaching, which I think is excellent and the results speak for that,
[28:31.560 -> 28:36.440] but just as a person, people just want to work for him, want to work for him and
[28:36.440 -> 28:42.840] yeah, so to have him sitting next to us at games where he's got this feel and
[28:42.840 -> 28:46.800] a calmness about him, he's just got a calm aura that just,
[28:46.800 -> 28:50.360] he walks into a room and there's respect.
[28:50.360 -> 28:53.200] And there's a multitude of people like that
[28:53.200 -> 28:57.760] that I'm surrounded by who know so much more than I do.
[28:57.760 -> 29:00.400] I just grab the wisdom to listen to them.
[29:00.400 -> 29:03.040] But also the lack of ego to listen to them as well.
[29:03.040 -> 29:05.240] Because surely in your role,
[29:05.240 -> 29:09.640] there comes sort of a sense that the final say is with you.
[29:09.640 -> 29:11.920] So how do you get out of your own way
[29:11.920 -> 29:16.160] to listen to all these diverse, different voices?
[29:17.240 -> 29:19.360] Well, I think everybody has an ego.
[29:19.360 -> 29:21.240] By accepting the responsibility of being captain,
[29:21.240 -> 29:22.860] because no one makes you captain,
[29:22.860 -> 29:24.760] you accept that responsibility.
[29:24.760 -> 29:26.240] By accepting the responsibility of head coach,
[29:26.240 -> 29:29.560] you know that you accept the responsibility,
[29:29.560 -> 29:32.200] you accept the accountability for it as well.
[29:32.200 -> 29:34.640] So, who want the responsibility,
[29:34.640 -> 29:35.640] but not the accountability,
[29:35.640 -> 29:37.440] you accept the accountability.
[29:37.440 -> 29:40.880] So, I've always been willing to accept the accountability.
[29:40.880 -> 29:43.480] So yes, the decision-making process is clear
[29:43.480 -> 29:45.280] and you know where it stops.
[29:45.280 -> 29:49.200] But I think one of the big things goes as well,
[29:49.200 -> 29:52.680] amazing what can be achieved when nobody cares who gets the credit.
[29:52.680 -> 29:57.760] And I don't know who said it, but I don't care who gets credit.
[29:57.760 -> 30:00.880] I just want the people I work with to just keep getting better,
[30:00.880 -> 30:02.280] myself to get better.
[30:02.280 -> 30:05.320] Hey everyone, I hope you're enjoying this conversation
[30:05.320 -> 30:07.280] with Steve Borthwick, the final episode
[30:07.280 -> 30:09.440] of the Gallagher Leadership Series.
[30:09.440 -> 30:10.360] I just want to let you know
[30:10.360 -> 30:12.120] that if you're enjoying this episode,
[30:12.120 -> 30:14.640] then you can get access to even more people
[30:14.640 -> 30:17.520] in the world of rugby, having enlightening conversations.
[30:17.520 -> 30:19.080] In fact, check out this clip.
[30:19.080 -> 30:22.600] This is Ben Earl talking about Owen Farrell
[30:22.600 -> 30:26.000] in the Gallagher Rivals Together series. Have a quick listen.
[30:26.000 -> 30:29.000] It's someone we probably both know very well is Owen.
[30:29.000 -> 30:30.000] Yeah.
[30:30.000 -> 30:34.000] And I'd say he's in that category. He doesn't let you have a bad training session, does he?
[30:34.000 -> 30:35.000] Because the standards...
[30:35.000 -> 30:40.000] If you're a couple of percent off, you're firstly hearing about it, even if you're not aware about it,
[30:40.000 -> 30:43.000] then like, it definitely raises the standard.
[30:43.000 -> 30:45.920] I mean, yeah, like everyone talks about,
[30:45.920 -> 30:46.900] obviously he's been out injured
[30:46.900 -> 30:48.660] for a couple of weeks with us.
[30:48.660 -> 30:51.960] The standard of training when he comes back is like,
[30:51.960 -> 30:54.300] is mental, it's night and day.
[30:54.300 -> 30:56.680] And that's just not like that anyone else
[30:56.680 -> 30:59.000] is like not good enough.
[30:59.000 -> 31:01.280] It's just that he's wired differently in that regard
[31:01.280 -> 31:04.520] is that he wants the best and he'll only accept the best.
[31:04.520 -> 31:10.020] And that is so motivating for you as a teammate but also for
[31:10.020 -> 31:11.500] someone for me to learn off.
[31:11.500 -> 31:14.940] It's really good if you want more of that and more insight from the likes of
[31:14.940 -> 31:19.520] Danny Kerr, Freddie Burns, Beno Abano on their own leadership journeys in the
[31:19.520 -> 31:23.320] Gallagher Premiership then just head to Gallagher's YouTube channel and watch all
[31:23.320 -> 31:31.400] the episodes. You can also find a link to that in our show notes. Anyway, enough from me, back to the episode.
[31:31.400 -> 31:35.000] Let's carry on, Steve, just talking about the team around you, because so many people
[31:35.000 -> 31:38.680] listen to this podcast, you run teams, and they will be listening going, well, I have
[31:38.680 -> 31:45.480] a bunch of people around me, but I don't kind of feel like they ever really talk the truth to me.
[31:45.480 -> 31:47.880] So what have you said to your team?
[31:47.880 -> 31:50.640] So they are absolutely clear that you need the truth,
[31:50.640 -> 31:52.360] you need to be pushed, you need accountability,
[31:52.360 -> 31:55.760] you need honesty, you need openness, you need vulnerability.
[31:55.760 -> 31:58.000] Can you talk us through some of those conversations
[31:58.000 -> 32:00.660] or maybe what you say when you first work with someone
[32:00.660 -> 32:02.480] so they really understand the kind of leader
[32:02.480 -> 32:04.840] that you want to be in the kind of atmosphere
[32:04.840 -> 32:06.040] you're trying to create.
[32:07.080 -> 32:10.040] I think there's a two way thing there
[32:10.040 -> 32:15.040] because I've done different jobs as assistant coaches.
[32:16.640 -> 32:18.920] I've done different jobs as captain
[32:18.920 -> 32:22.080] and I used to think everything was just so simple.
[32:22.080 -> 32:23.480] I remember as a captain of a team,
[32:23.480 -> 32:25.320] once telling the coaches to leave the field
[32:25.320 -> 32:26.680] because we're getting in our way.
[32:26.680 -> 32:28.080] And they're stopping me, captain of the team,
[32:28.080 -> 32:29.280] you know, turn around, we've done something wrong
[32:29.280 -> 32:30.960] and I've got four different coaches on the pitch
[32:30.960 -> 32:32.480] having four different conversations,
[32:32.480 -> 32:33.300] different groups of players,
[32:33.300 -> 32:35.360] which means I can't deal with things.
[32:35.360 -> 32:36.880] I told them to get off the pitch.
[32:36.880 -> 32:38.800] And you go, right, that's simple.
[32:38.800 -> 32:41.000] I mean, there's nothing personal.
[32:41.000 -> 32:42.640] I don't have any criticism of them.
[32:42.640 -> 32:45.320] We just lost the opening game of the season.
[32:45.320 -> 32:50.080] And it felt to me like coaches were trying to,
[32:50.080 -> 32:51.880] I don't know what they were trying to do.
[32:51.880 -> 32:53.960] And I said, just get off the pitch.
[32:53.960 -> 32:55.820] And I probably used a bit of the language
[32:55.820 -> 32:57.360] to be a bit more blunt.
[32:57.360 -> 33:02.360] And I didn't mean anything personally by it,
[33:02.360 -> 33:05.280] but it undoubtedly offended some people. And I just, at that point, when I didn't mean anything personally by it, but it undoubtedly offended some people.
[33:05.280 -> 33:07.280] And I just, at that point, when I was young,
[33:07.280 -> 33:09.040] I didn't understand that.
[33:09.040 -> 33:10.960] Just, I'll just tell you what I think.
[33:10.960 -> 33:14.040] And all we care about is just being the best team we can be.
[33:14.040 -> 33:15.800] But it does, you know, people are.
[33:15.800 -> 33:17.720] So, it's how you deliver it,
[33:17.720 -> 33:18.920] and it's also how you receive it.
[33:18.920 -> 33:22.280] And certainly now in the position I'm in,
[33:22.280 -> 33:25.240] that's how I deliver, and there's also how I receive and
[33:25.240 -> 33:31.240] there's quite clearly I can, if I receive things in a certain manner, people
[33:31.240 -> 33:36.040] will be very, very reticent to come forward again. So I'm always making sure
[33:36.040 -> 33:39.400] that I receive information in the right way.
[33:39.400 -> 33:41.000] What is the right way then Steve?
[33:41.000 -> 33:46.180] The right way for me would be acknowledge, thank, be grateful
[33:46.180 -> 33:51.600] for it. Even if your initial thing is to disagree, be grateful. And there's a lot to be said
[33:51.600 -> 33:58.600] for gratitude and trying to practice gratitude. So I'll make sure I'm grateful to them. I
[33:58.600 -> 34:04.400] will make sure if people disagree with me, I'll ask for evidence. So that's an upfront
[34:04.400 -> 34:05.800] thing. You come forward, disagree with me, but come for evidence so that's
[34:03.520 -> 34:08.400] an upfront thing you come come forward
[34:05.800 -> 34:09.840] disagree with me but come with
[34:08.400 -> 34:12.160] evidence because the first thing I'm
[34:09.840 -> 34:14.000] gonna do is I'm gonna say where's your
[34:12.160 -> 34:16.040] evidence of this and if you don't have
[34:14.000 -> 34:18.360] evidence and you feel it's a gut
[34:16.040 -> 34:20.400] feel whatever it's a feeling no
[34:18.360 -> 34:23.520] worries just acknowledge it just
[34:20.400 -> 34:25.440] acknowledge that's what you're thinking and then
[34:23.520 -> 34:26.480] I try not to act upon my initial reaction
[34:26.480 -> 34:29.720] because sometimes that's not a great way to be.
[34:29.720 -> 34:33.040] The other thing I'd probably be clear about was
[34:33.040 -> 34:35.040] there are other avenues to deliver the information.
[34:35.040 -> 34:37.920] So if I was very blunt, I didn't mind.
[34:37.920 -> 34:41.080] If I wanted to say something to my coaches,
[34:41.080 -> 34:42.880] I'd tell them,
[34:42.880 -> 34:44.520] other people necessarily aren't quite like that.
[34:44.520 -> 34:46.160] So there are other avenues.
[34:46.160 -> 34:47.480] I share an office with somebody
[34:47.480 -> 34:49.560] who's far more experienced than I am.
[34:49.560 -> 34:50.680] He's brilliant.
[34:50.680 -> 34:52.320] And I won't tell you his age on it,
[34:52.320 -> 34:54.920] but he's got an incredible manner by him.
[34:54.920 -> 34:57.920] So he's always, people can always talk to him
[34:57.920 -> 34:59.320] and he'll deliver it to me.
[34:59.320 -> 35:03.000] And he can always tell us the home truths
[35:03.000 -> 35:04.680] if you need him delivered.
[35:04.680 -> 35:08.960] And having avenues like that, I think that's also, I'd say I'm pretty accessible, y gall e ddweud y gwirionedd i ni'r gwirionedd y tu hwnnw, os ydych chi'n ei bod yn ei rhaid iddo ei ddarparu. Ac mae ganddo ffyrdd i hynny, rwy'n credu, hefyd, rwy'n dweud bod rwy'n cymhwysol iawn,
[35:08.960 -> 35:10.960] ond rhai bobl efallai nad ydynt yn dweud hynny,
[35:10.960 -> 35:13.760] ond mae bob amser yn rhan i ddarparu pob wybodaeth i mi.
[35:13.760 -> 35:15.760] Ond yn ôl i'w ddweud,
[35:15.760 -> 35:18.160] gan fod yn ddiogel o bobl,
[35:18.160 -> 35:19.200] beth mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw ddweud,
[35:19.200 -> 35:20.080] pam mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw ddweud hynny,
[35:20.080 -> 35:21.600] ac yn ddiogel o hynny iddynt.
[35:21.600 -> 35:24.400] A pha mor oedd y cwestiynau y gwydaethwch chi?
[35:24.400 -> 35:27.760] Pa mor oedd hynny'n cael eu gwybod o'r profiad ffasinadol y gyda chi o fynd allan i Japan and being grateful to them for it. And how much was these lessons that you've learned, how much of that was informed by that fascinating experience
[35:27.760 -> 35:30.560] you had of going out to Japan and coaching there,
[35:30.560 -> 35:32.400] where I assume when you first went,
[35:32.400 -> 35:35.920] the language barrier might have been an obstacle for you,
[35:35.920 -> 35:39.520] where you've still got to get people to buy into your philosophy
[35:39.520 -> 35:43.040] and your teaching without necessarily having the tools
[35:43.040 -> 35:45.000] of being blunt or direct that you
[35:45.000 -> 35:47.880] maybe have had at Saracens and when you were in England?
[35:47.880 -> 35:53.200] There's a couple of things. So we played a game, a stadium in Tokyo called
[35:53.200 -> 35:58.480] Prince Chichibu-Nimiya Stadium and I might have got the pronunciation wrong. So we
[35:58.480 -> 36:02.360] played an international there. I think it might mean Japan versus Canada, Japan
[36:02.360 -> 36:07.720] versus USA. And we made a substitution and I was forwards coach,
[36:07.720 -> 36:11.640] coaching the line out there and we played this line out play.
[36:11.640 -> 36:14.800] I could see who the players were about to play the play.
[36:14.800 -> 36:17.880] And we just put a substitution on
[36:17.880 -> 36:20.720] and suddenly he was going, walking into the line.
[36:20.720 -> 36:22.160] I know people here aren't rugby fans.
[36:22.160 -> 36:24.200] So the ball is thrown in from the touchline
[36:24.200 -> 36:26.660] and a certain player's got a jump or be lifted to win
[36:26.660 -> 36:31.120] the ball it's then passed out and other players in the back line and play the
[36:31.120 -> 36:34.440] attacking options and carry the ball into contact and get us over the game
[36:34.440 -> 36:39.640] right the player would just brawn should have gone into the back line and he went
[36:39.640 -> 36:42.760] into the line and I could see this happening and I couldn't understand why
[36:42.760 -> 36:46.920] it was happening and inevitably we didn't win the ball.
[36:46.960 -> 36:48.440] It messed up.
[36:49.160 -> 36:53.200] And the next day I got the group together of callers,
[36:53.200 -> 36:54.440] leaders and I said,
[36:55.640 -> 36:57.440] can you just talk me through this?
[36:58.160 -> 37:01.040] And they said, oh, well, we'd called the play and then the substitution was made,
[37:01.040 -> 37:02.120] but then I said, yes.
[37:02.120 -> 37:08.400] And then there was a break and you could have easily changed the play and they said yeah yeah but the player had
[37:08.400 -> 37:14.800] come on said he could do it and I said right okay had he practiced it once? No.
[37:14.800 -> 37:21.440] How did he, did you have confidence he could do it? No. So I said you see you're putting
[37:21.440 -> 37:25.160] somebody in a position there that he's never practiced,
[37:25.160 -> 37:26.600] doesn't have the skillset to do it.
[37:26.600 -> 37:28.800] You're setting him up to fail.
[37:28.800 -> 37:31.440] And no, not one of you said, counted it.
[37:31.440 -> 37:35.260] Not one of you said, this is not the right thing to do.
[37:36.200 -> 37:38.400] And not, nobody had said anything.
[37:38.400 -> 37:42.600] So guys, so understanding about the culture and respect.
[37:42.600 -> 37:45.480] And I said, do you think that's respectful?
[37:45.480 -> 37:46.320] Do you think that's the right thing?
[37:46.320 -> 37:48.160] Do you think that was respectful to put in somebody
[37:48.160 -> 37:50.400] in a position somebody couldn't do?
[37:50.400 -> 37:52.680] And ultimately we had to decide
[37:52.680 -> 37:54.400] having a longer conversation about this
[37:54.400 -> 37:57.960] and ultimately it became, no, no.
[37:57.960 -> 38:00.800] And, but somebody needs to step forward and speak there.
[38:00.800 -> 38:02.560] So suddenly you're going, right, wow,
[38:02.560 -> 38:04.000] this is very different to me.
[38:04.000 -> 38:04.840] This is very different.
[38:04.840 -> 38:08.120] I don't, I don't, I didn't see that coming at all.
[38:08.120 -> 38:10.560] And you're going, right, this is how I need to coach.
[38:10.560 -> 38:12.120] This is what I need to coach.
[38:12.120 -> 38:14.000] This isn't, this isn't the nuts and bolts
[38:14.000 -> 38:14.840] how you lift somebody
[38:14.840 -> 38:16.200] or how you carry the ball into contact.
[38:16.200 -> 38:18.240] It's that, but it's all this other stuff.
[38:19.600 -> 38:20.560] And being able to coach it.
[38:20.560 -> 38:24.600] And then playing, we played an international first game.
[38:24.600 -> 38:27.160] We'd played I think against the tier one test team.
[38:27.160 -> 38:29.680] And I'm thinking to myself, wow, the players here,
[38:29.680 -> 38:32.600] they're so harmonious and respectful
[38:32.600 -> 38:35.840] and they're beautiful people, beautiful culture.
[38:35.840 -> 38:37.400] I love Japan.
[38:37.400 -> 38:41.400] And I'm thinking to myself, wow, if we respect too much here
[38:41.400 -> 38:43.640] we could get blown away early.
[38:43.640 -> 38:47.840] And I remember distinctly teaching the forwards
[38:47.840 -> 38:50.640] before that week, not about fighting,
[38:50.640 -> 38:51.480] because you don't fight,
[38:51.480 -> 38:53.200] you don't throw punches anymore in rugby,
[38:53.200 -> 38:54.760] but you wrestle and you grab hold of people
[38:54.760 -> 38:56.680] and you stand up for your friends and you stand up
[38:56.680 -> 38:59.120] and you show we're not backing down and all that.
[38:59.120 -> 39:00.600] I remember showing the players how to do it
[39:00.600 -> 39:03.560] because I'd never once seen the Japan forwards do it.
[39:03.560 -> 39:05.120] And I said, so boys, this is how you do it.
[39:05.120 -> 39:05.920] And this is how you grab him.
[39:05.920 -> 39:06.720] And this is how you do it.
[39:06.720 -> 39:07.680] And this is how you stand.
[39:07.680 -> 39:08.800] And this is how you wrestle.
[39:08.800 -> 39:12.720] The thing people call handbags, but it's showing you're not going to back down.
[39:13.280 -> 39:15.440] And I'm thinking, wow, I'm coaching this.
[39:16.000 -> 39:20.560] But the players, because they were brave people, brave players, tough players,
[39:20.560 -> 39:26.400] hard players, but they needed, I felt there was something different and they needed that.
[39:26.400 -> 39:28.360] He realized, well, I'm coaching this
[39:28.360 -> 39:29.960] because I think they need it.
[39:29.960 -> 39:31.800] And thinking the next day, thinking, wow,
[39:31.800 -> 39:32.960] I could get somebody sent off.
[39:32.960 -> 39:34.520] I don't know what's going to happen.
[39:34.520 -> 39:36.720] But in the first five minutes,
[39:36.720 -> 39:40.280] the first five minutes, the whole forward pack stands up
[39:40.280 -> 39:42.320] and says, we're not going backwards.
[39:42.320 -> 39:45.120] And thinking, right,
[39:45.120 -> 39:48.000] so the coaching isn't just about
[39:48.000 -> 39:50.360] crosses on a whiteboard and you go here and you do that.
[39:50.360 -> 39:52.360] It's, it's all kinds of things about the culture.
[39:52.360 -> 39:55.160] So that, that experience of going to Japan,
[39:55.160 -> 39:57.480] I just feel very, very lucky that I had that experience.
[39:57.480 -> 39:59.080] And I am using the word lucky there.
[39:59.080 -> 40:02.320] I feel very lucky I had that opportunity to go to Japan.
[40:02.320 -> 40:05.280] Beautiful place, beautiful country, beautiful culture.
[40:05.280 -> 40:06.720] And what we're talking about here, Steve,
[40:06.720 -> 40:08.440] is learning from experience.
[40:08.440 -> 40:10.480] So that was obviously a key experience in your life.
[40:10.480 -> 40:14.720] And the most recent experience is coaching
[40:14.720 -> 40:16.320] and running Leicester Tigers.
[40:16.320 -> 40:19.600] So taking on board everything you learned
[40:19.600 -> 40:21.920] to the point where you walked into that club,
[40:21.920 -> 40:25.720] I'd love to know what the first thing you decided to say
[40:25.720 -> 40:27.600] to the team and to the players was,
[40:27.600 -> 40:30.480] to get them on board, let them know what you expected,
[40:30.480 -> 40:32.840] and also as important as anything else,
[40:32.840 -> 40:35.040] let them know who had just walked in the door.
[40:35.040 -> 40:37.600] Can you take us back to how you formulated
[40:37.600 -> 40:41.800] your greeting to that club and how you delivered it?
[40:41.800 -> 40:45.240] Drafted it about a hundred times, maybe a thousand times.
[40:45.240 -> 40:47.760] Went through it over and over in my head.
[40:47.760 -> 40:49.320] I know where I want to get across
[40:49.320 -> 40:51.280] and how to get this across to them.
[40:51.280 -> 40:53.440] First thing we need to do is fight.
[40:53.440 -> 40:55.120] And we can't be a team that goes away.
[40:55.120 -> 40:56.240] Like we just can't be that.
[40:56.240 -> 40:57.800] You got to fight.
[40:57.800 -> 41:01.040] And I said, I'll be clear about how we're going to play.
[41:01.040 -> 41:02.880] And I think you've got to be clear about
[41:02.880 -> 41:03.840] how you want to play.
[41:03.840 -> 41:05.600] You've got to be clear what you stand for
[41:05.600 -> 41:06.920] and how you perceive it.
[41:06.920 -> 41:11.280] But that's all secondary to the behaviours that we want.
[41:11.280 -> 41:12.680] And these are the behaviours,
[41:12.680 -> 41:15.040] you've got to be able to fight for every single minute.
[41:15.040 -> 41:16.960] And I use that term in terms of the fight
[41:16.960 -> 41:18.460] from terms of the rugby sense.
[41:19.400 -> 41:22.560] And that was really it.
[41:22.560 -> 41:23.480] And that was the message.
[41:23.480 -> 41:24.320] That was the key.
[41:24.320 -> 41:26.000] If there's one thing I needed to get across to the team, that was it. What about your first actions as well, Steve? Ac roedd hynny'n wir. Ac roedd hynny'n gweithio'n dda. Roedd hynny'n gweithio'n dda.
[41:26.000 -> 41:28.000] Os oedd un peth rhaid i mi gael ar y tîm, roedd hynny'n gweithio'n dda.
[41:28.000 -> 41:30.000] Beth am eich cyntaf arbennig, Steve?
[41:30.000 -> 41:32.000] Felly, rydych wedi dweud eich cyntaf,
[41:32.000 -> 41:34.000] beth oeddech chi eisiau cael ei weld yn y dyfodol y pryd?
[41:34.000 -> 41:45.000] Roeddwn i'n cymryd y tîm. Roeddwn i'n cymryd y cwrs ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym Mhelford ym to make sure we were clear about what we're about,
[41:45.040 -> 41:46.880] clear about what we stood for.
[41:48.080 -> 41:49.840] And it was very, very basic.
[41:49.840 -> 41:52.760] I'm a really simple coach, guys.
[41:52.760 -> 41:55.520] I'm really not trying to be a fake humility
[41:55.520 -> 41:57.760] when I say that I'm a really simple coach.
[41:57.760 -> 42:01.880] There's nothing fancy, there's nothing elaborate.
[42:01.880 -> 42:03.640] So I wanted to be clear about what we stood for.
[42:03.640 -> 42:05.280] And I went to that
[42:05.280 -> 42:10.200] stadium many many times and played in front of those supporters many many times
[42:10.200 -> 42:16.120] on the opposing team and I keep coming back to this thing about you
[42:16.120 -> 42:21.200] gotta be proud of what you do and you gotta feel part of something and so I
[42:21.200 -> 42:27.000] wanted players feeling part of something and proud of the fight that Felly roeddwn i eisiau i chwaraewyr chwarae yn teimlo fel rhan o rywbeth a chael y gwrthod y byddant yn ei gael.
[42:27.000 -> 42:29.000] Ac oherwydd nid oedd gennym hi, rydyn ni'n mynd i'w gael.
[42:29.000 -> 42:32.000] Dyna oedd y peth mwyaf rydyn ni'n mynd i'w hyrwyddo.
[42:32.000 -> 42:39.000] Felly rydyn ni wedi rhoi nhw i Welford Road a dweud, dyma ni. Dyma ein lle. Dyma'r holl lester o'r rhaid.
[42:39.000 -> 42:45.400] A chi yw'r bobl sy'n mynd i'w gwneud yn dda. A dwi'n credu ei fod yn dda i ddweud, Steve,
[42:45.400 -> 42:48.080] ar gyfer eich sefydliad yn y tafel ar y munud,
[42:48.080 -> 42:50.240] y bydd pobl o ffyrdd allan yn dweud,
[42:50.240 -> 42:51.600] wel, mae'n gweithio.
[42:51.600 -> 42:54.040] Felly, pan ddechreuwch chi'n deall
[42:54.040 -> 42:56.280] bod eich methodau cymhlaenol
[42:56.280 -> 42:57.720] yn dechrau'n cael eu cymryd
[42:57.720 -> 43:00.240] ac roedd yn dechrau cael eu gael?
[43:00.240 -> 43:03.000] Felly, rydw i'n dweud y person
[43:03.000 -> 43:04.080] sy'n desbaru cyfrifol iawn
[43:04.080 -> 43:05.000] yw Aldon Walters,
[43:05.000 -> 43:06.000] because he's got team fit.
[43:06.000 -> 43:11.000] But we've got so far to go to where we want to be.
[43:11.000 -> 43:15.000] And that's the thing that's pretty exciting for us.
[43:15.000 -> 43:19.000] I think there's so much more that we can go.
[43:19.000 -> 43:21.000] We've got a very, very young team.
[43:21.000 -> 43:25.840] And we've got a bunch, a group of players that have come through
[43:25.840 -> 43:31.200] the academy system that are young, they're in their early 20s and they just need to be
[43:31.200 -> 43:36.520] coached real well and so that then hopefully the team will be good in the
[43:36.520 -> 43:40.680] future. So what I'm doing right now is still keeping it incredibly simple. We
[43:40.680 -> 43:46.200] play a game, we review it and by the lunchtime of two days after the game,
[43:46.200 -> 43:48.140] we don't talk about it anymore.
[43:48.140 -> 43:49.540] And then we're all about the next game.
[43:49.540 -> 43:51.240] And I don't talk about anything further back.
[43:51.240 -> 43:53.880] And I don't talk anything further forward.
[43:53.880 -> 43:56.080] We just work on it on that basis.
[43:56.080 -> 43:57.680] And maybe that'll have to change at some point
[43:57.680 -> 44:00.360] in the future, at some point in my coaching career,
[44:00.360 -> 44:01.800] but that's it.
[44:01.800 -> 44:04.120] So I think one of the changes we've got
[44:04.120 -> 44:06.000] is the players focusing upon now. And I'd say that's one of the pleasing things. Ond dyna'r peth. Felly rwy'n credu bod un o'r newidau rydyn ni'n cael yw'r chwaraewyr yn sefydlu ar hyn o bryd.
[44:06.000 -> 44:09.000] Ac rydw i'n dweud yw hwn yn un o'r pethau sy'n hynod ddiddorol.
[44:09.000 -> 44:12.000] Yn sefydlu ar hyn o bryd, beth allaf i wneud heddiw i fod yn well?
[44:12.000 -> 44:16.000] Oherwydd eich bod chi wedi bod yn rhan o'r tîmau sy'n gynhyrchu y cymdeithas,
[44:16.000 -> 44:25.920] felly mae gennych y prifysgol o gwybod beth mae'n ei gyrraedd a gwybod pan mae angen i chi ddod i mewn. it takes and knowing where you need to get to. How do you assess where you are at this moment in time
[44:25.920 -> 44:29.960] versus the experience you've got of knowing what's required?
[44:29.960 -> 44:33.840] I think that's one of the reasons why you start looking
[44:33.840 -> 44:37.160] at people like Richard Wigglesworth, he's a player
[44:37.160 -> 44:40.480] and a coach, Kevin Sinfield, Alid Walters.
[44:40.480 -> 44:43.160] These people have won a lot, a lot.
[44:43.160 -> 44:45.360] These people have been in those situations a lot
[44:45.360 -> 44:47.600] and understand the behaviours of that
[44:47.600 -> 44:49.400] and know more about it than I do.
[44:49.400 -> 44:53.440] So that's leaning upon their experiences.
[44:53.440 -> 44:54.960] That's vital for me.
[44:54.960 -> 44:56.200] We want to be successful.
[44:56.200 -> 44:58.200] We want to keep doing the right things each day.
[44:58.200 -> 45:00.280] And I've got good people around me
[45:00.280 -> 45:03.160] and good people around the team to help guide that journey.
[45:03.160 -> 45:06.240] Again, a big thing that we might get chief execs or people in business listening to this, a phobl da o'r tîm i'w helpu i'r ffordd. Yn ogystal â'r peth fawr y gallwn gael arweinyddiaid cyfrifedig
[45:06.240 -> 45:08.640] neu bobl yn y busnes yn clywed y cwmni yw,
[45:08.640 -> 45:11.400] pa mor llwyddiannus y bydd yn cymryd i'r tîm yn ymwneud â nhw?
[45:11.400 -> 45:13.840] Ac rydyn ni'n siŵr yn siarad am y phaseau fyfyrwyr
[45:13.840 -> 45:17.040] o'r fase dwirion pan ddechreuwch i ddod i mewn ac ymwybodolwch i bawb,
[45:17.040 -> 45:20.800] y fase leip o ddangos i bobl fod yn mynd i'w gael,
[45:20.800 -> 45:22.240] y fase ffwrdd o'r brif,
[45:22.240 -> 45:28.880] lle mae'n cael ei gael yn anodd, lle dydyn ni ddim yn gweld y canlyniadau' o hynod, y stage o'r cwmni lle ydych chi'n gweld cynyddu, ac yna y stage o'r arddangosfa lle rydych chi'n
[45:28.880 -> 45:34.480] ymrwymo'r trofiad a'r hyn o'r cyfansodd. Undeb ar y ffordd y byddwch chi ar y
[45:34.480 -> 45:36.000] ffordd o'r fath o'r fath o'r ffordd ar y moment yna?
[45:37.360 -> 45:42.640] Ie, mae'n ddiddorol oherwydd rwy'n cael fy nghafn yn fy laptop o'r
[45:42.640 -> 45:45.720] cyfrifoldeb rydw i'n ymweld â'r lle rydych chi'n siarad ac yn cynhyrchu, ac yna roedd gen i I've got my notes on my laptop of that presentation I sat through where you spoke and presented a lot.
[45:45.720 -> 45:47.920] And then I had a coffee afterwards
[45:47.920 -> 45:51.960] and there's loads of interesting things that came from that.
[45:51.960 -> 45:55.120] And I've used lots of those lessons along this way.
[45:55.120 -> 45:57.720] I was introduced to a business model
[45:57.720 -> 45:59.600] and I showed it to the players.
[45:59.600 -> 46:01.640] It'd be some version of the Kublai Ross curve,
[46:01.640 -> 46:02.520] I think it is.
[46:02.520 -> 46:06.040] And I drew it up on the board one day and
[46:06.040 -> 46:14.080] I said it's like a U shape curve and I said I don't know where on this curve we are now.
[46:14.080 -> 46:17.920] I don't know and I've done it, I did it a couple of times and I said I don't know where
[46:17.920 -> 46:22.200] on this curve we are and I don't know if this in the early days I don't know if we're still
[46:22.200 -> 46:28.080] going down but this is what Leicester Tigers have done. I don't know if this in the early days, I don't know if we're still going down, but this is what Leicester Tigers have done. I don't know if we've plateaued at the bottom yet.
[46:28.080 -> 46:30.800] Maybe we've started the incline, I don't know.
[46:30.800 -> 46:32.680] But our responsibility is this,
[46:32.680 -> 46:34.760] and our opportunity is this.
[46:34.760 -> 46:39.040] And so I said, when we got this, we're gonna go up.
[46:39.040 -> 46:41.600] The team, the club is going to improve.
[46:41.600 -> 46:43.960] The privilege we have is to be part of this.
[46:43.960 -> 46:47.520] And the opportunity we have is to make that upward curve
[46:47.520 -> 46:50.140] as steep as we possibly can.
[46:50.140 -> 46:52.760] And how steep that is gonna be,
[46:52.760 -> 46:54.920] is gonna be dependent upon two things.
[46:54.920 -> 46:58.380] It's gonna be dependent one, on how hard we work.
[46:58.380 -> 47:01.380] And so let's make sure nobody works harder than us.
[47:01.380 -> 47:04.160] And the second thing is how quick we learn.
[47:04.160 -> 47:06.520] So let's make sure we learn faster than anybody else.
[47:06.520 -> 47:08.240] So if we keep it to those two things,
[47:08.240 -> 47:09.840] let's learn really fast, work really hard,
[47:09.840 -> 47:11.640] learn really fast, work really hard.
[47:11.640 -> 47:13.600] And let's not obsess about making mistakes
[47:13.600 -> 47:14.440] because we're going to make them.
[47:14.440 -> 47:15.720] Let's just accept we're going to make them
[47:15.720 -> 47:17.200] because we're not perfect.
[47:17.200 -> 47:19.960] And let's just learn really quick so we don't repeat them.
[47:19.960 -> 47:23.280] And then we'll make that curve as steep as it possibly can.
[47:23.280 -> 47:24.760] So I'll say the same thing to you.
[47:24.760 -> 47:26.200] I have no idea where we are.
[47:26.200 -> 47:29.640] We're somewhere on that upward trajectory,
[47:29.640 -> 47:31.640] but we were pretty low.
[47:31.640 -> 47:33.400] You know, Leicester Tigers are the worst team.
[47:33.400 -> 47:35.600] The win rate was by far the worst
[47:35.600 -> 47:37.200] of any team in the premiership.
[47:37.200 -> 47:38.600] The team should have been relegated
[47:38.600 -> 47:41.480] had Saracen's not been punished
[47:41.480 -> 47:43.480] for what they were punished for.
[47:43.480 -> 47:48.080] So the team should have been in the championship and we weren't. So we were far behind any of the teams. a oedd yn cael ymddygiad am yr hyn y maen nhw'n cael ymddygiad am. Felly, byddai'r tîm yn y Llyfrgell, ac nid oeddwn.
[47:48.080 -> 47:49.880] Felly roeddwn yn ddarlith y rhan fwyaf o unrhyw dîm,
[47:49.880 -> 47:51.600] felly rydyn ni'n rhaid i ni weithio'n anodd.
[47:51.600 -> 47:53.160] Ond byddwn i'n dal i'r ddau pethau hynny.
[47:53.160 -> 47:54.880] Gweithio'n anodd iawn, dysgu'n anodd iawn.
[47:54.880 -> 47:56.280] Ac wrth i ni siarad nawr,
[47:56.280 -> 47:58.880] rydyn ni wedi mynd o'r tîm sy'n anodd
[47:58.880 -> 48:01.000] i'r tîm sydd wedi cael
[48:01.000 -> 48:03.800] un o'r llwyr o 12 pwynt yn y top o'r Prifysgol.
[48:03.800 -> 48:06.960] A oes gennych chi'r amser y byddwch chi'n gallu ymddygiad ar y chwbl i ddweud, got a tasty 12 point lead at the top of the Premiership. Have you allowed yourself any time to pat yourself on the back,
[48:06.960 -> 48:10.440] to say, well done, to even for a moment,
[48:10.440 -> 48:12.920] take a breath and enjoy it?
[48:13.420 -> 48:15.120] The players are the ones, ultimately, yes,
[48:15.120 -> 48:18.440] all the coaching team, the support staff around the team,
[48:18.440 -> 48:21.320] everybody there is working really hard.
[48:21.320 -> 48:25.320] And I say thank you to them for all their hard work and I
[48:25.320 -> 48:28.080] probably don't say that enough and I'll probably contradict myself because I
[48:28.080 -> 48:33.440] said gratitude is important. The players are the ones each week go out there
[48:33.440 -> 48:37.200] and have the opportunity. They're the ones who've got to jump right in. They're the
[48:37.200 -> 48:41.240] ones you can either dip a toe in or just jump right in. They're the ones who have
[48:41.240 -> 48:46.640] got the opportunity to do things special and we're trying to help them do it
[48:46.640 -> 48:48.280] and enjoy that journey with them.
[48:48.280 -> 48:51.320] So the, I said on Saturday night
[48:51.320 -> 48:53.320] in the change rooms afterwards,
[48:53.320 -> 48:55.040] I thank you for all your hard work.
[48:55.040 -> 48:56.640] You should be real proud of yourself.
[48:56.640 -> 48:58.440] And I talk about that when you're looking
[48:58.440 -> 49:00.040] in the mirror the next morning,
[49:00.040 -> 49:01.120] what are you going to see?
[49:01.120 -> 49:02.480] What are you going to think?
[49:02.480 -> 49:04.360] So I think if you look at me in the morning,
[49:04.360 -> 49:06.080] you should be very proud of yourselves.
[49:06.080 -> 49:08.480] You just, so let's keep feeling that way.
[49:08.480 -> 49:09.680] Let's keep doing that.
[49:09.680 -> 49:10.520] Brilliant.
[49:10.520 -> 49:12.240] Look Steve, we've reached the point in our interview
[49:12.240 -> 49:14.920] where we have some quick fire questions at the end.
[49:15.800 -> 49:17.520] And the people that listen to the podcast
[49:17.520 -> 49:19.280] love hearing people's answers to this one.
[49:19.280 -> 49:21.160] And the first one is always,
[49:21.160 -> 49:23.680] what are your three non-negotiables
[49:23.680 -> 49:28.000] that you and the people around you need to buy into? The areas where you just can't compromise. Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri ddifrifolion a ddylai eich bobl o gwmpas eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:28.000 -> 49:29.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri ddifrifolion a dylai eich bobl o gwmpas eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:29.000 -> 49:30.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri ddifrifolion a dylai eich bobl o gwmpas eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:30.000 -> 49:31.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri ddifrifolion a dylai eich bobl o gwmpas eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:31.000 -> 49:32.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri difrifolion a dylai eich bobl o gwmpas eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:32.000 -> 49:33.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri difrifolion a dylai eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:33.000 -> 49:34.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri difrifolion a dylai eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:34.000 -> 49:35.000] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri difrifolion a dylai eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd?
[49:35.000 -> 49:45.120] Yn ystod y cyfnodau, beth yw'r tri difrofion a dylai eich gilydd eu bod yn ei gyrraedd? Yn y I don't mind us making mistakes. I really don't mind.
[49:45.120 -> 49:48.040] I don't mind us if we don't win.
[49:48.040 -> 49:48.880] It's all right.
[49:48.880 -> 49:50.400] It's not happy, but you're all right.
[49:50.400 -> 49:53.040] But you can't ever be through lack of effort.
[49:53.040 -> 49:56.320] So you're a fight, you've got to work really, really hard.
[49:56.320 -> 49:58.400] And you got to want to get better
[49:58.400 -> 50:00.200] and help the people around you get better.
[50:00.200 -> 50:02.620] So I suppose that probably comes to the next thing is
[50:02.620 -> 50:04.280] when someone comes in, they're either giving energy
[50:04.280 -> 50:05.600] or they're taking it
[50:08.160 -> 50:08.760] Just nothing's neutral. So you gotta give energy
[50:12.620 -> 50:17.500] You gotta give energy to you walk in a room. You gotta give energy to that room You can't take energy away from it. If you could go back to one moment in time, what would it be and why?
[50:18.080 -> 50:22.720] I'd probably I'd go back to when I was a young player tell myself to be a bit more empathetic because I wasn't
[50:22.960 -> 50:24.720] I'd probably go
[50:24.720 -> 50:27.240] I'd probably go back to
[50:27.640 -> 50:28.840] try not to be a perfectionist.
[50:28.840 -> 50:31.600] Because there's no doubt, in what I've said here,
[50:31.600 -> 50:33.400] I believe in what I've said to you guys,
[50:33.400 -> 50:35.240] but I'm a perfectionist.
[50:35.240 -> 50:37.760] And that can be a challenge.
[50:37.760 -> 50:41.200] So you're always, as a guy, I'm coaching myself as well.
[50:41.200 -> 50:44.280] So if I could go back and not be that perfectionist,
[50:44.280 -> 50:45.600] except we are imperfect,
[50:45.600 -> 50:49.960] we're going to make mistakes and I hate making mistakes, but it's part of life.
[50:49.960 -> 50:54.240] So, and I say that to the players, I'm going to try my best. I'm going to make mistakes.
[50:54.240 -> 50:59.080] I don't want to, I promise you. So I'd probably go back to some point in my younger self and talk about that.
[50:59.280 -> 51:03.720] Very good. Steve, have you got a book that you'd recommend our audience read that has
[51:04.440 -> 51:05.000] impacted you? Favorite book is The Alchemist. Steve, mae gennych chi ddysgu y byddwch chi'n argymell ein cymdeithaswyr i ddweud a oedd eich bod chi'n effeithio?
[51:06.000 -> 51:08.000] Ffavriot ddysgu yw The Alchemist.
[51:09.000 -> 51:10.000] Pam yw hynny?
[51:10.000 -> 51:13.000] Mae'n rhywun ar y ffordd. Rydw i wedi ei ddarllen llawer o amser.
[51:13.000 -> 51:17.000] Ymdrechion ac ydych chi'n ymddangos eich hun ar y ffordd hwnnw.
[51:17.000 -> 51:20.000] Ac ydych chi'n ymddangos eich hun drwy, y byddwch chi'n mynd i'r ffordd honno,
[51:20.000 -> 51:21.000] yw'n waith iawn?
[51:21.000 -> 51:23.000] Mae'n mynd drwy amserau anodd ac ydych chi'n mynd, yw'r gwerth i'w gwneud?
[51:23.000 -> 51:25.040] Ac mae'n mynd i'r ffordd honno. Is it really worth it? You go through tough times and you go, is this worth it? And just keep going on the journey,
[51:25.920 -> 51:29.280] trusting you, not losing sight
[51:29.280 -> 51:30.880] of where you're trying to get to.
[51:30.880 -> 51:35.520] The ability to trust, trust your gut feel,
[51:35.520 -> 51:37.840] trust if you keep doing things right,
[51:37.840 -> 51:39.800] if you keep doing things what you believe in,
[51:39.800 -> 51:40.880] if you keep working hard,
[51:40.880 -> 51:44.680] then maybe events will conspire to come in your way.
[51:44.680 -> 51:47.240] So the law of attraction, that,
[51:47.240 -> 51:49.520] just I love about that, that book.
[51:49.520 -> 51:51.120] And so I read that a lot of times.
[51:51.120 -> 51:55.000] And then second one would probably go,
[51:55.000 -> 51:57.040] Zen in the martial arts.
[51:57.040 -> 52:00.560] Just so many lessons, so many lessons in life.
[52:00.560 -> 52:03.160] And how important is legacy to you, Steve?
[52:03.160 -> 52:05.040] So one, I don't think about legacy. I can honestly say, I So one, I don't think about legacy.
[52:05.040 -> 52:09.000] I can honestly say, I don't think about that at all.
[52:10.200 -> 52:13.080] What I'd like to think about is that
[52:16.120 -> 52:19.360] the people you interact with are better
[52:19.360 -> 52:20.960] for their interaction with you.
[52:20.960 -> 52:23.920] There's a, you've left some positive effect in some way.
[52:23.920 -> 52:26.000] It doesn't mean it's going to be pleasant because sometimes coaching is tough. Sometimes hitting me and a player, y byddwch chi wedi rhedeg rhyw ddefnydd positif mewn ffordd. Nid oes yn golygu bod yn bwysig,
[52:26.000 -> 52:28.000] oherwydd weithiau yw ymgyrchu'n anodd,
[52:28.000 -> 52:30.000] weithiau, i mi a'r chwaraewr, nid yw'n hollol
[52:30.000 -> 52:32.000] yn ddwywys a'n iawn, weithiau mae gennych
[52:32.000 -> 52:34.000] cyfraith anodd, ond y ffaith bod
[52:34.000 -> 52:36.000] yna ddefnydd positif yn mynd yno.
[52:36.000 -> 52:38.000] Ac mae hynny'n dod at y...
[52:38.000 -> 52:40.000] efallai'r gwestiwn mwyaf
[52:40.000 -> 52:42.000] a gafodd fy mod i'n gofyn oedd unwaith,
[52:42.000 -> 52:44.000] a oes eich gwirionedd eich plwyf
[52:44.000 -> 52:45.840] i gael eu hyfforddi gan chi? Ac mae'n y peth gwell rydw i wedi cael ei gofyn. I was asked was once, would you want your sons to be coached by you?
[52:48.360 -> 52:51.560] And it's the best question I've ever been asked. Cause at the time when that person asked me that question,
[52:51.560 -> 52:56.120] it was 2016, it was July, 2016, he asked me that question.
[52:56.120 -> 52:59.040] And unequivocally, the answer to that question,
[52:59.040 -> 53:02.580] I could guarantee it then was absolutely no.
[53:03.560 -> 53:04.920] Absolutely no.
[53:04.920 -> 53:27.000] You're right, wow. So then what do I want? Oh yeah. yna oedd, yn unig, nid. Yn unig, nid. Dywed, dwi'n ddweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n byw yn gweithio'n fwy, yn unol i'n holl un. Y cwestiwn final, a dyma eich gwybodaeth ddiweddarach i'r bobl sy'n clywed ar y podcast hon,
[53:27.000 -> 53:30.000] rhai pethau i'w gadael yn meddwl amdanyn nhw,
[53:30.000 -> 53:36.000] beth byddwch chi'n dweud yw eich rhaid i chi ddod o'r ôl i byw mewn bywyd cyffredin?
[53:36.000 -> 53:39.000] Byddwn i'n dechrau'n ymwneud â'r dechrau.
[53:39.000 -> 53:44.000] Rydych chi'n mynd drwy'r period hwn, lle rydych chi'n ceisio bod yn well
[53:44.000 -> 53:45.520] ac rydych chi'n gweithio'n fwy, ac rydych chi'n ceisio bod yn well ac yn arwain ar y gwirionedd,
[53:45.520 -> 53:50.640] ac yn ymgyrchu gyda'ch hunain i'w wneud, ac yn ymwneud â'ch gweithio i fod yn well,
[53:50.640 -> 53:52.560] ac yn gwneud gwirioneddau.
[53:52.560 -> 53:55.480] Ac nid yw'n golygu yw'r diwedd,
[53:55.480 -> 53:58.400] mae'n un o'r rhan arall o'r ffordd y mae'n rhaid i chi ddweud i'w ddysgu.
[53:58.400 -> 54:03.760] Felly rydw i'n meddwl y byddai'n rhaid i mi gyfro'r bobl i wneud yw ddod yn ôl i mewn,
[54:03.760 -> 54:06.520] i fy mhobl a'r pwll pedla, I think what I'd encourage people to do is jump right in, go back to my boys and the paddling pool
[54:06.520 -> 54:08.400] and just encourage people to jump right in
[54:08.400 -> 54:10.360] because it's the quickest way to learn.
[54:11.200 -> 54:13.800] So there, that's it.
[54:13.800 -> 54:15.960] Sorry, I don't have anything more prophetic than that.
[54:15.960 -> 54:17.120] Doesn't need to be.
[54:17.120 -> 54:18.840] That's the title for this episode, Damien.
[54:18.840 -> 54:20.480] Don't dip your toe in the water.
[54:20.480 -> 54:22.080] I think it's, you know what Steve,
[54:22.080 -> 54:23.580] it's been such an interesting conversation
[54:23.580 -> 54:28.200] because the whole point of this was about giving people lessons
[54:29.040 -> 54:31.560] in regards to learning from your experience.
[54:31.560 -> 54:34.120] And I think that, you know, when you talk about the player that
[54:34.280 -> 54:39.680] played for all those years and then the player that captained his country and played for England in a difficult time and went to
[54:39.760 -> 54:46.160] Saracens and then still found time to go and do a degree and do work experience with Lloyds and then off to Japan.
[54:46.160 -> 54:47.480] And now you end up at Leicester.
[54:47.480 -> 54:49.560] I just get, not only do I get a sense of someone
[54:49.560 -> 54:51.600] who's grown everywhere he's gone along the way,
[54:51.600 -> 54:54.520] but I also get a sense of someone who probably
[54:54.520 -> 54:57.900] for too long was too hard on himself.
[54:57.900 -> 55:01.120] And although he still holds himself to a very high standard,
[55:01.120 -> 55:07.040] he's probably learned that empathy and kindness to yourself and to those around you
[55:07.040 -> 55:10.640] is most likely the single most important element
[55:10.640 -> 55:12.680] to life and to rugby.
[55:12.680 -> 55:15.840] Yeah, you got the words that I don't,
[55:15.840 -> 55:19.280] I can't necessarily put into words what I feel more,
[55:19.280 -> 55:21.200] and I wish I could do that better.
[55:21.200 -> 55:25.600] I think from, I played about 450 games of top flight rugby, and I remember in any great detail, Rwy'n credu, o'n i, rwy'n chwarae o 450 gêm o rwbwyd top-flwydd.
[55:26.320 -> 55:28.800] Ac rwy'n cofio, mewn unrhyw ddifrif, 10 o'u gêm.
[55:29.280 -> 55:30.080] Yn y rhan o 10.
[55:30.760 -> 55:32.680] Ac mae'n llai i gyd o'r llwyr.
[55:33.880 -> 55:38.160] Ac oherwydd dyna sy'n dod i mi, ac dyna...
[55:38.160 -> 55:40.800] ac rwy'n mynd trwy periodau o fy nhyrfyrwyr
[55:40.800 -> 55:42.960] lle dywedwch chi, dwi ddim eisiau cael ei hymdrech.
[55:43.120 -> 55:46.000] Dwi ddim eisiau... ac rwy'n dweud, dynaweud i fy mhlaenoriaid ar hyn o bryd,
[55:46.000 -> 55:50.000] yw rwy'n ceisio ddweud i'r gwaedau rydw i wedi'u gwneud,
[55:50.000 -> 55:52.000] dwi ddim eisiau iddyn nhw eu gwneud.
[55:52.000 -> 55:54.000] Nid wyf yn siŵr sut i'w wneud,
[55:54.000 -> 55:56.000] ond dwi'n gwybod sut i ddweud nad i'w wneud,
[55:56.000 -> 55:58.000] yn aml iawn.
[55:58.000 -> 56:00.000] Rwy'n eisiau i'r mhlaenoriaid mwynhau'r hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud.
[56:00.000 -> 56:02.000] Rydyn ni'n cyfrifol i wneud yr hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud.
[56:02.000 -> 56:04.000] Ac rydw i'n cyfrifol i weithio gyda'r grŵp dda iawn o blaenoriaid.
[56:04.000 -> 56:05.000] Rydyn ni'n cael llawer i ddysgu. Rydym ni'n'n ei wneud, ac rydw i'n ddifrifol i weithio gyda grwpiau da iawn o chwaraeon.
[56:05.000 -> 56:10.000] Mae gennym llawer i ddysgu, a byddwn yn gwneud peidio ar y ffordd, ond dwi ddim yn mynd i ddysgu ar y peidio.
[56:10.000 -> 56:12.000] Dw i eisiau ddysgu arnyn nhw'n ffast.
[56:12.000 -> 56:17.000] Ac rydyn ni'n ddifrifol i gysylltu â chi, felly diolch i chi am y tro, Steve.
[56:17.000 -> 56:19.000] Diolch yn fawr iawn.
[56:24.000 -> 56:29.780] Damien, Jake, I really enjoyed his three non-negotiables at the end there. Fight,
[56:29.780 -> 56:34.280] graft, but also the energy you bring to the room and I think that for someone
[56:34.280 -> 56:37.760] who captained his country and for someone that had fights so high up on
[56:37.760 -> 56:40.720] his agenda and for someone who was teaching his Japanese teammates how to
[56:40.720 -> 56:46.160] grapple and wrestle and scrap with people he had a real almost a gentleness ymwneud â'i gilydd, sut i gyrraedd ac ymwneud â'r bobl. Roedd yn ddiddorol,
[56:50.480 -> 56:51.760] mewn gwirionedd, am y ffordd y ddweud ac y ffordd y gweld y byd. Yngyrchch chi'r beth rwy'n ei ddweud?
[56:51.760 -> 56:55.360] Ie, yn amlwg. Rwy'n meddwl oedd yn anhygoel iawn
[56:55.360 -> 56:59.760] o'i gwrs cyntaf, i'w gwrs penodol,
[56:59.760 -> 57:02.960] nad yw unrhyw un sy'n dweud ei fod yn cael y cyfanswmau,
[57:02.960 -> 57:05.000] ond yn dda i ymdrechu ar
[57:05.000 -> 57:07.000] dim ond ymdrech a chyfansoddiad
[57:07.000 -> 57:09.000] o bywyd eang.
[57:09.000 -> 57:10.000] A rwy'n credu hefyd,
[57:10.000 -> 57:12.000] mae'n golygu iawn i bobl sy'n
[57:12.000 -> 57:13.000] clywed hyn,
[57:13.000 -> 57:15.000] y gallwn gweld rhywun sy'n
[57:15.000 -> 57:16.000] ymgyrraedd England neu yw chwaraewr England
[57:16.000 -> 57:17.000] wedi'i gwneud,
[57:17.000 -> 57:18.000] neu rhywun sy'n chwaraewr
[57:18.000 -> 57:19.000] profffesiynol,
[57:19.000 -> 57:20.000] oh, maen nhw wedi'i gwneud,
[57:20.000 -> 57:21.000] maen nhw wedi...
[57:21.000 -> 57:22.000] Dyma rhywun sy'n
[57:22.000 -> 57:23.000] yn ei 40au
[57:23.000 -> 57:24.000] a'i
[57:24.000 -> 57:25.760] yw, y rôl 7 o 8 yn ei gyrfa, dim ond nawr got, here's someone who's, you know, in
[57:22.840 -> 57:29.000] his 40s and is in, you know, the seventh or
[57:25.760 -> 57:30.320] eighth role in his career, only now is he
[57:29.000 -> 57:31.760] learning how to speak to people, how to
[57:30.320 -> 57:33.000] get the best out of them. Like, I just want
[57:31.760 -> 57:35.600] people listening to this to
[57:33.000 -> 57:37.080] understand, don't write yourself off when
[57:35.600 -> 57:40.080] you're 30, when you're 40, when you're
[57:37.080 -> 57:42.120] 50. We've all got time. Yeah, I think that's
[57:40.080 -> 57:44.800] a really powerful message. I also think
[57:42.120 -> 57:46.960] what really comes across there, and that I
[57:44.800 -> 57:47.120] think we can all learn from, is the work a'r gwaith sy'n digwydd yn y siadau yma i wella'n ei hunain, os yw hynny'n mynd ac yn gwneud y prif gwybodaeth o'r gwaith
[57:47.120 -> 58:05.360] pan oedd yn y fath o'r chwaraewyr, o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r fath o'r f wella'n ffyny, y bydd hynny'n mynd ac yn gwneud y prif gwybodaeth o'r gwaith
[58:05.360 -> 58:10.560] pan oedd yn dal i fod yn chwaraewr rygbi, neu y bydd ymdrech i fynd i'r diwydiant
[58:10.560 -> 58:15.120] Anghywir a dysgu am ymgyrchu, neu fel y gwelwch chi, y cyfarfod cyntaf
[58:15.120 -> 58:20.160] yn y standio ar Welford Road gyda'i sgwad Leicester, mae'n sylwadau pwysig iawn
[58:20.160 -> 58:25.760] nad yw'n cael ymwneud â'r cyfnod, onfydliwch ar y broses a'r gwaith yng nghanol y ffyrdd
[58:25.760 -> 58:30.200] yw'r hyn sy'n mynd i'ch gael i'ch eich defnyddio o lefelau cyhoeddiant.
[58:30.200 -> 58:31.120] Ie, ddwyfio.
[58:31.120 -> 58:32.480] Ac mae'n debyg ei fod yn ei ddod o'n.
[58:32.480 -> 58:34.240] Rwy'n hoffi'r ffaith bod y Alchemist yn y cyfnod cyntaf
[58:34.240 -> 58:35.080] rydych chi wedi'i ddysgu i'w plant.
[58:35.080 -> 58:37.120] Dwi'n meddwl, dyna mae rhywun yn dod o'n
[58:37.120 -> 58:39.440] lefelau cyhoeddiant cyhoeddiant, yma Damien.
[58:39.440 -> 58:40.640] Rwy'n hoffi'r cyfnod hwnnw fy hun.
[58:40.640 -> 58:42.560] Ar Gynulliad Dydd Ieuenctid,
[58:42.560 -> 58:46.000] rwy'n dweud bod hwn oedd un o'r cyfnodau hyfyr i mi. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn metaforau pwysig iawn book myself. On World Book Day recently I said that was one of my favourite books. I think it's
[58:46.000 -> 58:51.280] a really powerful metaphor and I think it's a great example of the journey that Steve's on as
[58:51.280 -> 58:58.240] well, of self-discovery. And there it is, the final episode of the Gallagher Leadership Series. Thank
[58:58.240 -> 59:03.520] you all so much for tuning in, listening and enjoying this with us. I just want to say that
[59:03.520 -> 59:05.960] without Gallagher really wanting
[59:05.960 -> 59:09.600] to help make a difference for you, this simply wouldn't have happened. And this
[59:09.600 -> 59:13.200] isn't just, you know, let's put Gallagher's name on the episode so they can sponsor
[59:13.200 -> 59:16.880] it and they can get a bit of advertising. They genuinely want to make a difference.
[59:16.880 -> 59:21.080] They're helping leaders to perform at the top of their game and also underlining
[59:21.080 -> 59:27.720] the importance of having a strong network of trusted advisors. In fact, they've launched the Gallagher Leaders Trust, which is a
[59:27.720 -> 59:32.180] mentoring network for directors of rugby and head coaches across 13 premiership
[59:32.180 -> 59:36.600] rugby clubs. And I think the important thing is that it doesn't matter what
[59:36.600 -> 59:41.200] your business, it doesn't matter where you're a leader, it is a challenge and it
[59:41.200 -> 59:44.960] can be lonely and it can be hard. And therefore to have these kinds of
[59:44.960 -> 59:45.640] conversations,
[59:45.640 -> 59:48.400] to realise that there is some truth in that old phrase,
[59:48.400 -> 59:50.360] tough at the top, there is truth in that.
[59:50.360 -> 59:51.660] And to have these conversations,
[59:51.660 -> 59:53.560] I think has been really powerful.
[59:53.560 -> 59:56.280] So, Gallagher, thank you so much
[59:56.280 -> 59:57.920] for being involved in these episodes.
[59:57.920 -> 59:58.840] And if you're listening to this
[59:58.840 -> 01:00:01.320] and you want to find out more about Gallagher,
[01:00:01.320 -> 01:00:05.000] just check out ajg.com forward slash UK.
[01:00:06.500 -> 01:00:10.900] That's ajg.com forward slash UK.
[01:00:10.900 -> 01:00:11.740] But that's it.
[01:00:11.740 -> 01:00:12.980] Thank you so much for listening.
[01:00:12.980 -> 01:00:14.180] Don't forget, we're back next week
[01:00:14.180 -> 01:00:15.620] with another brand new episode
[01:00:15.620 -> 01:00:16.940] of the High Performance Podcast.
[01:00:16.940 -> 01:00:19.100] In fact, here's a sneak listen
[01:00:19.100 -> 01:00:21.280] at what you can hear coming your way on Monday.
[01:00:21.280 -> 01:00:22.220] See what you think.
[01:00:23.640 -> 01:00:30.820] If there's one rule I have in life, it's be curious. Complacency is the enemy of creativity
[01:00:30.820 -> 01:00:39.520] and so many other things in life, right? And so with my kids, it's like every trip we took,
[01:00:39.520 -> 01:00:45.560] every time we traveled as a family, it was about what are we going to see? Who are we going to meet?
[01:00:45.560 -> 01:00:46.600] What are we going to do?
[01:00:46.600 -> 01:00:50.220] And let's talk about those experiences and let's appreciate
[01:00:50.220 -> 01:00:54.440] the opportunities we have to learn being a lifelong learner.
[01:00:54.440 -> 01:00:56.680] You mentioned Kobe Bryant.
[01:00:56.680 -> 01:00:59.980] Unbelievable curiosity, boundless.
[01:00:59.980 -> 01:01:02.820] And the fact that any time he walked into a room
[01:01:04.020 -> 01:01:07.760] where we were to talk about, you know, a brand strategy
[01:01:07.760 -> 01:01:11.920] or a campaign, the fact that he was the one delivering
[01:01:11.920 -> 01:01:15.120] the insights and the points of inspiration to us
[01:01:15.120 -> 01:01:18.800] that he found through new emerging technology
[01:01:18.800 -> 01:01:22.320] or architecture or entertainment,
[01:01:22.320 -> 01:01:25.000] as he's going for his fifth championship
[01:01:25.520 -> 01:01:29.960] he's finding the time to soak up everything around him.
[01:01:29.960 -> 01:01:34.800] And then like any great teacher wants to, you know
[01:01:34.800 -> 01:01:37.920] not just bottle it up, but share it with you.
[01:01:38.800 -> 01:01:40.040] Sounds good, hey?
[01:01:40.040 -> 01:01:41.840] Listen, remember there is no secret.
[01:01:41.840 -> 01:01:43.120] It is all there for you.
[01:01:43.120 -> 01:01:45.020] Be your own biggest cheerleader
[01:01:45.020 -> 01:01:48.480] and make World Class Basics your calling card
[01:01:48.480 -> 01:01:49.980] for the next few days.
[01:01:49.980 -> 01:01:52.500] As always, huge thanks to Finn Ryan at Rethink Audio.
[01:01:52.500 -> 01:01:54.220] Thanks to Will, thanks to Hannah,
[01:01:54.220 -> 01:01:55.740] thanks to Gemma, thanks to Eve,
[01:01:55.740 -> 01:01:58.220] thanks to everyone for their hard work
[01:01:58.220 -> 01:02:01.260] to create these episodes of the High Performance Podcast.
[01:02:01.260 -> 01:02:03.100] But most of all, thanks to you.
[01:02:03.100 -> 01:02:05.400] Thanks for listening, thanks for talking about it,
[01:02:05.400 -> 01:02:07.720] thanks for telling your friends, thanks for sharing it,
[01:02:07.720 -> 01:02:10.920] thanks for spreading the word, thanks for helping us grow
[01:02:10.920 -> 01:02:14.840] to millions and millions of listens every single month.
[01:02:14.840 -> 01:02:16.360] Have a great day.
[01:02:16.360 -> 01:02:17.960] Go and chase high performance.
[01:02:33.360 -> None] Thanks for watching!