Delia Smith: The power of silence (E220)

Delia Smith CH CBE is a culinary icon having sold over 21 million cookery books, and is also joint majority shareholder of Norwich City FC. In this conversation, Delia opens up about her spiritual journey, the transformative power of community and her time at Norwich.

Her spirituality is a central theme of the episode - now at 82 years of age, she describes how her relationship to community, politics and silence has transformed over time. Delia shares with Jake and Damian how dedicating one hour (she started with just 10 minutes) a day to quiet time has reshaped her perspective on life's challenges.

Having been a key member of the Norwich football family for over 27 years, community is central to Delia’s life. Delia discusses how to create, support and maintain communities in a time when everyone feels so disconnected. Her time at Norwich has also brought many challenges, including joining the board when they were days from bankruptcy and dealing with rude fans and cruel chants. She shares what it feels like to find true freedom and how she has come to accept herself and the difficult realities of life.

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# Episode Summary: Delia Smith on Spirituality, Community, and Norwich City

Delia Smith, a culinary icon and joint majority shareholder of Norwich City FC, engages in a profound conversation with Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes, exploring themes of spirituality, community, and her journey at Norwich City.

## Key Insights:

1. **Spiritual Journey:** Delia emphasizes the transformative power of spirituality in her life. She highlights the significance of dedicating time to quiet reflection, which has reshaped her perspective on life's challenges.

2. **Community:** Community is central to Delia's life, both in her personal and professional spheres. She discusses the importance of creating, supporting, and maintaining communities, especially in an era where people feel disconnected.

3. **Norwich City:** Delia shares her experiences as a key member of the Norwich City football family for over 27 years. She recounts the club's perilous financial state when she joined the board and the challenges she faced, including dealing with rude fans and cruel chants.

4. **Finding Freedom:** Delia reflects on the journey of finding true freedom and self-acceptance. She emphasizes the significance of embracing oneself and accepting the difficult realities of life.

5. **Overcoming Criticism:** Delia reveals her strategy for dealing with criticism, particularly when it involves people she loves. She emphasizes the power of humility and disarming critics through kindness.

6. **Humility:** Humility is an integral part of Delia's character. She acknowledges that her success is not solely due to her own efforts but also the contributions of others. She credits her parents, agent, husband, and community for their support.

7. **Building Culture at Norwich City:** Delia discusses her approach to creating a positive culture at Norwich City, emphasizing the importance of fostering a family-like atmosphere and a strong sense of community.

8. **Relationship with Risk:** Delia shares her perspective on risk-taking, recalling the significant financial risk she and her husband took to invest in Norwich City when it was on the brink of bankruptcy.

9. **American Investment:** Delia explains the recent American investment in Norwich City, highlighting the due diligence process and the shared values between the club and the new investors.

10. **Message to Listeners:** Delia concludes the conversation with a powerful message, encouraging listeners to look at the bigger picture, find ways to make the world a better place, and embrace self-love.

11. **Non-Negotiable Behaviors:** Delia emphasizes the importance of truth, respect for others, and humility as non-negotiable behaviors that she and those around her should uphold.

12. **Biggest Strength:** Delia identifies her willingness to take risks as her greatest strength, acknowledging the importance of following one's heart and embracing failure as a part of the journey.

13. **Biggest Failure:** Delia reflects on her biggest failure as the inability to secure promotion to the Premier League for Norwich City for five consecutive years. She highlights the importance of learning from failures and striving for continuous improvement.

14. **Advice to Teenage Dreamers:** Delia offers advice to young people, encouraging them to embrace failure and pursue their dreams fearlessly. She emphasizes the significance of surrounding oneself with supportive individuals.

15. **Final Message:** Delia concludes the conversation with a powerful reminder to listeners to learn to love themselves and extend that love to others, creating a positive impact on the world.

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[00:06.000 -> 00:14.000] Wednesday the 8th of November is the chance for you to come to a live, high-performance recording in London
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[00:51.220 -> 00:58.280] your place, go to the highperformancepodcast.com. That's the highperformancepodcast.com and
[00:58.280 -> 01:05.000] come and join us in London live with the England Lionesses manager, Serena Viegman.
[01:05.000 -> 01:09.660] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast
[01:09.660 -> 01:13.680] that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet.
[01:13.680 -> 01:17.480] I'm Jake Humphrey and alongside Professor Damien Hughes we learn from the
[01:17.480 -> 01:22.600] stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be
[01:22.600 -> 01:27.920] challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today.
[01:27.920 -> 01:35.440] I feel that if something's wrong, I want to do my bit to put it right. And I don't think
[01:35.440 -> 01:41.840] that's unique to me. I think everybody has that sort of capacity in them, but it just
[01:41.840 -> 01:48.000] needs to be brought out. I really don't believe this wonderful, beautiful thing
[01:48.000 -> 01:52.000] called human existence is just going to come to an end with climate change
[01:52.000 -> 01:56.000] and it is going to come to an end. If we don't do something about it
[01:56.000 -> 02:00.000] that's it, it's extinction. Or as one writer put it
[02:00.000 -> 02:04.000] unite or perish. One vote every five years is not
[02:04.000 -> 02:07.040] living in a democracy. Not in any way, shape or perish. One vote every five years is not living in a democracy, not in any way,
[02:07.040 -> 02:13.440] shape or form. That's all we're given. We have to find a way to let the people in community
[02:14.480 -> 02:24.000] be the politics. Don't be fooled by this charming, lovely person underneath their steel.
[02:25.000 -> 02:25.160] this charming, lovely person underneath their steel.
[02:28.740 -> 02:31.400] So today we welcome the owner of Norwich City Football Club, TV chef and author Delia Smith
[02:31.400 -> 02:32.920] to the High Performance Podcast.
[02:32.920 -> 02:35.440] So Delia is now in her 80s.
[02:35.440 -> 02:38.360] She's been a chef for over 60 years.
[02:38.360 -> 02:41.880] Her TV career started, would you believe, over 50 years ago.
[02:41.880 -> 02:44.240] Her books have sold millions.
[02:44.240 -> 02:45.520] But what we were really interested
[02:45.520 -> 02:51.640] in is a recent book she's written that I reckon you don't have on your bookshelf. You probably
[02:51.640 -> 02:56.800] do have Delia Smith's Complete Cookery Course or one of the other cookbooks that she's written.
[02:56.800 -> 03:02.480] But she also released a book recently called You Matter, The Human Solution. And the truth
[03:02.480 -> 03:05.520] is that she believes that humans are the solution.
[03:05.520 -> 03:11.680] She is optimistic about our future. She's incredibly interested in our future. She
[03:11.680 -> 03:16.000] talks on this podcast about spirituality, the power of the human race, the power that you have
[03:16.000 -> 03:22.080] to make this a world that you want it to be. And I think the fact that Delia has been on the earth
[03:22.080 -> 03:28.000] for over eight decades puts her in a place where she has real freedom to talk about these kinds of things.
[03:28.000 -> 03:38.000] You will know plenty about someone as famous as Delia Smith, but I would wager that you're going to hear Delia speak in a way that you won't expect and have never heard before.
[03:38.000 -> 03:43.000] As we welcome Delia Smith to the High Performance Podcast.
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[05:58.600 -> 06:04.240] Delia, lovely to see you.
[06:04.240 -> 06:05.760] Nice to see you guys.
[06:05.760 -> 06:07.360] Welcome to the show.
[06:07.360 -> 06:10.440] What is high performance to you?
[06:10.440 -> 06:16.320] Well, it's something that I wouldn't pertain to really.
[06:16.320 -> 06:24.080] It sounds a bit above what I do, but I think it's doing the best you can do and really
[06:24.080 -> 06:26.240] not leaving any stones unturned, going
[06:26.240 -> 06:29.280] the extra mile and working really hard.
[06:29.280 -> 06:30.280] That's it for me.
[06:30.280 -> 06:33.960] I love the idea of growth and change.
[06:33.960 -> 06:39.200] And many people look at Delia Smith and think Delia Smith, chef, cookery writer, football
[06:39.200 -> 06:40.200] club owner.
[06:40.200 -> 06:46.000] You released a book not long ago that was very different to the Delia Smith that we all know.
[06:46.000 -> 06:48.000] What made you want to do that?
[06:48.000 -> 06:54.000] I just think it's been a journey that started when I was a child, really.
[06:54.000 -> 07:01.000] I felt there's something wrong in life that might be able to be put right.
[07:01.000 -> 07:08.560] And I think what we've neglected is our sort of deeper selves, our spiritual life.
[07:08.560 -> 07:16.280] And I think it's got bound up with religion that, so it's sort of put on the side as being
[07:16.280 -> 07:28.240] religious or about religion. So I desperately wanted to do something about the spiritual side of life, spirituality, that didn't include religion.
[07:28.240 -> 07:32.560] It wasn't about religion, it's about humans and what humans are made of.
[07:32.560 -> 07:37.200] RL I'm interested in that comment that you said that you'd almost recognized that something
[07:37.200 -> 07:39.760] wasn't right from a young age.
[07:39.760 -> 07:41.760] Would you tell us more about that?
[07:41.760 -> 07:49.000] HM Well, not so much from when I was young, but now, which compelled me to write it. But I
[07:49.000 -> 07:58.000] just felt, because when I was a child, my mother put me to bed too early, and I knew
[07:58.000 -> 08:07.500] it was too early because all the kids were outside playing, and there I was, no chance of getting to sleep. But I just had this space, this time in my life,
[08:07.500 -> 08:09.500] which was very productive.
[08:09.500 -> 08:12.500] I can't explain it any more than that.
[08:12.500 -> 08:15.000] All children have their sort of space moments.
[08:15.000 -> 08:18.500] And I just felt that was an important part of life
[08:18.500 -> 08:22.000] that I've always wanted to always go back to.
[08:22.000 -> 08:24.500] So that's what brought it on, if you like.
[08:24.500 -> 08:26.800] So it was almost like constructive daydreaming?
[08:26.800 -> 08:31.600] Angela Yeah, anything. I don't like the word meditation,
[08:31.600 -> 08:36.800] because I think it implies something you've got to achieve, something you've got to do.
[08:36.800 -> 08:48.960] But I think stillness and silence achieves so much in a person. I just wanted to try and convince people that it's very therapeutic.
[08:49.840 -> 08:56.320] You know, that you come out of the busyness and the fast lane, and you just have that time in
[08:56.320 -> 09:01.680] yourself to, yes, daydream or whatever comes along. Sometimes it's going to be something
[09:01.680 -> 09:06.080] really deep. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the shopping list
[09:06.080 -> 09:12.480] at Sainsbury's comes into the mind, or what I'm going to have for breakfast, or whatever.
[09:12.480 -> 09:18.800] But it's something really ordinary, but something really dynamic at the same time.
[09:18.800 -> 09:20.240] Mason Can we talk about
[09:20.800 -> 09:33.800] spirituality? What does it represent to you when we say spirituality? Well, it means that there is the essence of a person, the deeper side of a person that
[09:33.800 -> 09:40.560] can get lost in the noise and the activity. There's one great philosopher, French philosopher
[09:40.560 -> 09:46.560] whose name I can never remember, but he said, all the troubles in the world,
[09:46.560 -> 09:53.140] not some, all the troubles in the world come upon us because we refuse to sit still in
[09:53.140 -> 09:56.600] our rooms for half an hour each day. Blaise Pascal.
[09:56.600 -> 09:59.280] Matthew 15 Blaise Pascal. And do you do that?
[09:59.280 -> 10:00.280] Angela Yes.
[10:00.280 -> 10:09.720] Matthew 15 And what does it do for you? I can't say what it does, but it's something I can't do without.
[10:09.720 -> 10:13.560] You know, I need to have that space, I need to have that time.
[10:13.560 -> 10:17.240] So for people that don't do this, how should they begin?
[10:17.240 -> 10:22.000] Is it as simple as just sitting still for half an hour, or are there specific things
[10:22.000 -> 10:24.360] that work for you that people can maybe adopt?
[10:24.360 -> 10:31.760] Well I've always said the harder it is, the more you need it. So, I had a book that
[10:31.760 -> 10:37.840] helped me, written by an Indian Sufi, who said, it is going to be hard, but if you do
[10:37.840 -> 10:46.000] 10 minutes and then increase it later to 20 minutes and then increase it to, he said the optimum is
[10:46.000 -> 10:52.440] an hour a day. But I think that is a good way. And I think, you know, being a practical
[10:52.440 -> 10:56.920] person, I think it's quite good if you have a timer so you know when the 10 minutes is
[10:56.920 -> 11:01.960] up. Because if you're not used to it, you sit there and you go, keep looking at your
[11:01.960 -> 11:06.720] watch. Is that all? People are not used to sitting still in
[11:06.720 -> 11:12.400] silence so it's quite difficult. But as somebody that has a packed agenda and
[11:12.400 -> 11:16.520] has had a packed agenda for a long time, whether it's with the football or
[11:16.520 -> 11:21.440] the other commitments and initiatives that you're involved in Delia, what
[11:21.440 -> 11:27.000] does this half an hour reflection give you in those other worlds?
[11:27.000 -> 11:35.600] KB. This just opened me up to a more intense kind of view of things, of people. It's only
[11:35.600 -> 11:46.560] in the last 23 years that I've made the commitment to do an hour a day. Before that, it was just dribs and drabs, but that was reading the
[11:46.560 -> 11:52.360] book. You know, this guy was very emphatic. I think it's changed me completely, and it's
[11:52.360 -> 12:00.560] made me more aware. It's nothing airy-fairy or right up there. It's something really simple,
[12:00.560 -> 12:08.260] like noticing people, listening to people, appreciating life, appreciating other
[12:08.260 -> 12:15.520] human beings. I think probably what's blown me away is what human life is. I can't actually
[12:15.520 -> 12:17.720] still quite believe it, you know?
[12:17.720 -> 12:19.920] Toby Go on, say more about that.
[12:19.920 -> 12:26.800] Angela Well, we don't choose it, do we? We're just there. But there's some sort of, I don't know,
[12:26.800 -> 12:34.760] cosmic process that's going on in this vast universe where it takes millions of years
[12:34.760 -> 12:48.400] for light to reach the Earth, and that's how big it is dot, you know, tiny little fragment in within all that, and
[12:48.400 -> 12:57.120] up pops life. I mean, come on, what's that? Life happens! And it's all life! And then
[12:57.120 -> 13:07.320] it's human life! So it's life everywhere, you know, little blade of grass coming up, that's life. And then it's human
[13:07.320 -> 13:13.520] life and, oh, there's culture and there's sport and there's all these wonderful things.
[13:13.520 -> 13:17.960] And I know it's difficult, I know it's hard, but it's still awesome.
[13:17.960 -> 13:23.600] And what does that mindset do for you when things aren't great or you're faced with challenge
[13:23.600 -> 13:27.120] or you find life difficult as a lot of people do?
[13:27.120 -> 13:34.840] It is going to always be difficult. So, I like old-fashioned colloquialisms, so there's
[13:34.840 -> 13:40.760] no such thing as a free lunch. And everything is going to cost, everything is going to be
[13:40.760 -> 13:45.820] hard sometimes, everything is going to be disappointing. And
[13:45.820 -> 13:53.900] I would say, to both of you, how wonderful football is. Because a little child of five,
[13:53.900 -> 13:58.220] sitting on the terraces in tears, and the whistle's just gone and they've lost, knows
[13:58.220 -> 14:04.660] what life is about. There are going to be those, you know, you lose the match and it's
[14:04.660 -> 14:05.680] the end of the world.
[14:05.680 -> 14:10.680] And is that maybe why football actually is so important to you? Because it's about human
[14:10.680 -> 14:15.640] beings, it's about human connection, it's about community, it's about coming together
[14:15.640 -> 14:16.640] and connecting.
[14:16.640 -> 14:27.040] Especially the connection and the community because there aren't many areas of life now where there's still proper community. And community is where
[14:27.040 -> 14:33.440] people become themselves. People become their best when they're in community. When they're
[14:33.440 -> 14:38.840] with other people, that's when they rise up and become truly themselves. I've learnt a
[14:38.840 -> 14:45.000] lot from you, Damien. Damien talks about social glue.
[14:45.000 -> 14:46.500] Explain your thoughts on that.
[14:46.500 -> 14:52.500] Social glue. There is this kind of invisible connection that we all have that we can ignore.
[14:52.500 -> 15:00.000] We don't realize it's there. But when you get, you know, people together and when they become team,
[15:00.000 -> 15:08.060] you know, that is quite, that is it, isn't it? It's finding, as you said, that social glue.
[15:08.060 -> 15:11.820] So where have you seen it applied most powerfully then?
[15:11.820 -> 15:14.340] Wherever there is strong community.
[15:14.340 -> 15:17.220] I mean, I had somebody write to me the other day
[15:17.220 -> 15:19.580] and ask me to say a few words,
[15:19.580 -> 15:23.340] and she was in Norfolk helping poor families, you know,
[15:23.340 -> 15:27.500] to cope, and she said, it's amazing how when
[15:27.500 -> 15:33.860] you give people, you give them freedom, when they come together and you give them freedom,
[15:33.860 -> 15:40.920] up come the ideas, up comes the sort of, you know, imagination and the, it's all there.
[15:40.920 -> 15:53.480] But I think it needs other people to bring it out. I mean, if everybody in the world today got the social glue, got together and said, we're having no more authoritarianism,
[15:53.480 -> 15:54.480] we wouldn't have any.
[15:54.480 -> 15:58.040] Toby And how does this link back to where we started
[15:58.040 -> 16:03.080] this conversation about, as Damien mentioned, reflective daydreaming, that hour a day that
[16:03.080 -> 16:05.920] you take just to be with yourself.
[16:05.920 -> 16:10.560] How do we link that to people being together? Because that feels like a very individual
[16:10.560 -> 16:11.560] thing to be doing.
[16:11.560 -> 16:14.640] KB Yes, well I think that's an important part
[16:14.640 -> 16:28.360] of it because I think what that does is it somehow brings that into you. It sort of community, people become more important to you because
[16:28.360 -> 16:38.460] you're spending that time. Truth is coming to you and truth is that I can be a better
[16:38.460 -> 16:40.700] person if I'm with other people.
[16:40.700 -> 16:47.880] Toby So if I said to you, what's your purpose? How would you answer that question? My purpose?
[16:47.880 -> 16:52.800] No one's ever asked me that. I don't know what my purpose is, but I know how I feel.
[16:52.800 -> 17:00.360] I feel that if something's wrong, I want to do my bit to put it right. And I don't think
[17:00.360 -> 17:06.520] that's unique to me. I think everybody has that sort of capacity in them, but it
[17:06.520 -> 17:08.200] just needs to be brought out.
[17:08.200 -> 17:10.160] Toby And there may well be people listening to
[17:10.160 -> 17:19.040] this thinking, we've never lived in a time of more fractious things going on. We've never
[17:19.040 -> 17:23.040] lived in a time where people are more separate from each other, despite the fact that it's
[17:23.040 -> 17:29.600] claimed that technology brings us closer together. That's the challenge that people might think, well, this problem
[17:29.600 -> 17:34.000] is too great for me to solve or for us to solve or for, you know, a quiet reflection.
[17:34.000 -> 17:39.160] The world isn't rainbows, kittens and candy floss, is it? That, you know, there's some
[17:39.160 -> 17:50.560] realism here. And I think some people might doubt that this can offer that. I think the political systems are broken and I think people are sort of the most
[17:50.560 -> 17:54.760] dangerous thing of all is that the state we're in at the moment becomes
[17:54.760 -> 17:59.920] normalized. We look on the television and we see the terrible terrible things
[17:59.920 -> 18:06.560] going on and the the killing and the hardship and all of that. And we think we can't do
[18:06.560 -> 18:12.200] anything about it. We feel helpless and we can't do anything about it. So I think we've
[18:12.200 -> 18:18.840] got to find answers, but I can't find answers. But I think together we can find answers.
[18:18.840 -> 18:24.920] So if I was to go out now and say I was to invite both of you and I was to invite the
[18:24.920 -> 18:26.000] man who wrote that book and the man who wrote that book
[18:26.000 -> 18:29.960] and the man who wrote that book and da da da da da and get them all round the table,
[18:29.960 -> 18:32.760] right, how are we going to fix it? We would.
[18:32.760 -> 18:37.440] See, I think what you're offering here is really compelling, Delia, and I'm interested
[18:37.440 -> 18:45.400] in for anyone listening to this, say whether it's a school community or whether it's
[18:42.760 -> 18:48.080] just a wider community in their
[18:45.400 -> 18:51.480] local area or whether it's even a
[18:48.080 -> 18:54.120] business. I get the reflective daydreaming
[18:51.480 -> 18:55.600] starts to open you up to the truth. What
[18:54.120 -> 18:57.920] would you say is almost like the next
[18:55.600 -> 19:00.400] steps of how we can start to create
[18:57.920 -> 19:02.000] these powerful communities where where we
[19:00.400 -> 19:04.240] start to right the wrongs and make a
[19:02.000 -> 19:05.840] difference? Well am I allowed to dream now? Yeah, please, go on.
[19:05.840 -> 19:09.920] I'll dream. By doing it, by making communities.
[19:10.800 -> 19:12.080] So what's step one of that?
[19:12.640 -> 19:15.280] There is something now, I don't know whether you've heard about it,
[19:15.280 -> 19:18.320] but there's something now called citizens assemblies.
[19:19.040 -> 19:21.200] You haven't heard about it? You see, that's the problem.
[19:21.920 -> 19:30.280] We've got the media telling us all the time how terrible everything is. Nobody's heard of citizens' assemblies. So what citizens' assemblies
[19:30.280 -> 19:38.660] are is gathering people together from a community and sitting down and thrashing out what the
[19:38.660 -> 19:46.520] world's problems are and trying to find the answers. So, it's now happening all over the world in all different
[19:46.520 -> 19:56.840] countries and there is a two big societies in America. But the leading light on this
[19:56.840 -> 20:08.240] is the Republic of Ireland and they started having citizens assemblies. And when they got to this dreaded thing called
[20:08.240 -> 20:15.200] abortion which had taken 25 years, the government couldn't sort it. The government could not
[20:15.200 -> 20:26.400] sort it. So the government allowed, they got a citizens' assembly of 100 people. And what happens is they're all randomly chosen. So they're
[20:26.400 -> 20:36.400] randomly chosen from electoral rolls, whatever, different ages, different backgrounds. And
[20:36.400 -> 20:46.840] these hundred people meet together sometimes over a weekend, sometimes one day of a weekend, you know, a Saturday, and they deliberate
[20:46.840 -> 20:52.480] together. Now what they're given is, it's totally random, you can't take a friend or
[20:52.480 -> 20:57.520] anything, you just go along, and what they're given then is information about the subject
[20:57.520 -> 21:03.400] to read, they have speakers that come in, they have people who have been affected by
[21:03.400 -> 21:06.000] the law, they come in and talk. So they're
[21:06.000 -> 21:13.880] informed. They're not deliberating just out of like, bump. But they're informed. And so
[21:13.880 -> 21:20.720] they take their information, they get together, and they deliberate, they discuss it, and
[21:20.720 -> 21:27.720] then at the end, they go out to the country, they find what they think. They go
[21:27.720 -> 21:34.680] out to the country, everybody has a vote, and they change the constitution. Now that's
[21:34.680 -> 21:48.120] a big one, isn't it? That one. That is what I'm saying. Now put that around the world everywhere. Splits us all up into areas where we can have citizens
[21:48.120 -> 21:55.160] assemblies. One of the great writers on this was an American writer called Hannah Arendt
[21:55.160 -> 22:01.760] and she's written a lot about this kind of thing. I think that's the answer. So I'm allowed
[22:01.760 -> 22:05.200] to dream on this podcast. that's the answer. So I'm allowed to
[22:01.800 -> 22:07.680] dream on this podcast. What I love on that
[22:05.200 -> 22:10.480] is that if we sort of break it down into
[22:07.680 -> 22:12.800] transferable bits that there's
[22:10.480 -> 22:14.520] something around first of all coming up
[22:12.800 -> 22:16.320] with a solution rather than just
[22:14.520 -> 22:18.960] identifying the problem, there's something
[22:16.320 -> 22:21.200] around the diversity of members, yeah
[22:18.960 -> 22:22.960] there's something about listening rather
[22:21.200 -> 22:25.640] than just having an opinion. There's
[22:22.960 -> 22:25.540] lots of easy skills that anyone listening
[22:25.540 -> 22:26.540] to this could adopt.
[22:26.540 -> 22:33.340] Yeah. So if you went on to YouTube and you had a look at the Irish citizens assemblies,
[22:33.340 -> 22:40.280] what you would see is what I've tried to write about in my book, which is probably not happening,
[22:40.280 -> 22:45.680] is happening to people. They are coming alive. There's witnesses that stand up, like a young
[22:45.680 -> 22:50.800] girl stands up and says, I just had no idea that I could contribute to something like this.
[22:51.520 -> 22:57.600] And that's the power of community, of human beings, social glue.
[22:57.600 -> 22:58.960] Matthew 14
[22:58.960 -> 23:02.560] One of the things that I love most about you, and there are many of them, is your optimism.
[23:05.520 -> 23:11.180] love most about you and there are many of them is your optimism. But we're also faced with the media, right? Who are deciding that we should be told about all the really awful
[23:11.180 -> 23:15.080] things in the world. And you can watch the news every single night and you can see all
[23:15.080 -> 23:20.320] the horrendous things and none of us have ever heard about the example you've just spoken
[23:20.320 -> 23:25.200] about, right? So are you optimistic about the future or are you pessimistic about
[23:25.200 -> 23:28.360] the future because of the way that society is informed?
[23:28.360 -> 23:36.840] Well, I have to be optimistic about it because I really do believe it and I really don't
[23:36.840 -> 23:42.600] believe this wonderful, beautiful thing called human existence is just going to come to an
[23:42.600 -> 23:48.760] end with climate change and it is going to come to an end. If we don't do something about it, that's it. It's
[23:48.760 -> 23:54.680] extinction. Or as one writer put it, unite or perish. So how have we lost...
[23:54.680 -> 23:59.160] You like that? I love that a lot. Unite or perish. Yeah. Have we lost sight then of how
[23:59.160 -> 24:04.540] awesome we actually are? I know that... We have. You know in your book, people talk
[24:04.540 -> 24:06.200] about self-actualization,
[24:06.200 -> 24:08.520] realizing the potential that we have as human beings.
[24:08.520 -> 24:12.560] KB. Yeah. But we're being brainwashed all the time not to think that.
[24:12.560 -> 24:13.560] IA. Why?
[24:13.560 -> 24:18.600] KB. Because I think, I'm sorry I'm going to have to get political. Is that alright?
[24:18.600 -> 24:19.600] IA. Yeah.
[24:19.600 -> 24:20.600] KB. Is it allowed?
[24:20.600 -> 24:33.480] IA. Yeah, of course. Everything is allowed here. CB. I think that what happened in the Second World War, what happened with Nazism and fascism,
[24:33.480 -> 24:49.020] we defeated the Nazis, but Nazism didn't go. And now it's moved into another phase called populism. And that populism is a lie, because the word
[24:49.020 -> 24:59.740] populism implies people. And they're not about people at all. So all over the world, you've
[24:59.740 -> 25:07.320] got these oligarchs and whatever you call them, you know, authoritarian leaders, manipulating.
[25:07.320 -> 25:13.120] They're getting into the political systems of everywhere. So everywhere they're into
[25:13.120 -> 25:21.880] the political systems and you find evidence of it. So really, I think the only fight back
[25:21.880 -> 25:26.920] is people. Somebody else said, but I don't know who said this, which is lovely, the only fight back is people. Somebody else said, but I don't know who said this,
[25:26.920 -> 25:30.320] which is lovely, the only way to fight populism is the population.
[25:30.320 -> 25:33.560] Matthew 15 Do you mind if we touch on that just for a
[25:33.560 -> 25:34.560] moment?
[25:34.560 -> 25:35.560] Anne Yes.
[25:35.560 -> 25:38.280] Matthew 15 What's broken and what should the answer
[25:38.280 -> 25:39.280] be?
[25:39.280 -> 25:48.480] Anne I think what's wrong in the world at the moment is the people, the population, the citizens of
[25:48.480 -> 25:55.240] the universe do not have a say in anything. Nothing. We're just told, you know, okay,
[25:55.240 -> 26:06.000] we're going to send the refugees off to Rwanda. We have no say in that. And I want us to learn about people power and what that would mean.
[26:06.000 -> 26:09.000] And okay, it is utopian.
[26:09.000 -> 26:13.000] You know, people will scoff, you know, the cynicism everywhere.
[26:13.000 -> 26:14.000] It is utopian.
[26:14.000 -> 26:16.000] Well, let's have a bit of utopia.
[26:16.000 -> 26:19.000] But someone would counter, well, we live in a democracy,
[26:19.000 -> 26:22.000] we vote for the government based on their manifesto,
[26:22.000 -> 26:23.000] therefore we do have a say.
[26:23.000 -> 26:25.580] What would your answer to that be?
[26:25.580 -> 26:31.500] One vote every five years is not living in a democracy. Not in any way, shape or form.
[26:31.500 -> 26:37.220] That's all we're given. We have no say in anything else. And what does that vote give
[26:37.220 -> 26:42.020] us? One set for another set of inadequates.
[26:42.020 -> 26:45.600] What would you like the answer to be? We have to find a way
[26:45.600 -> 26:48.600] to let the people in community
[26:48.600 -> 26:50.600] be the politics.
[26:50.600 -> 26:52.600] How do we do that?
[26:52.600 -> 26:54.600] By people coming together.
[26:54.600 -> 26:56.600] You know, one writer, the one I talked about in America,
[26:56.600 -> 26:59.600] said there should be big spaces everywhere.
[26:59.600 -> 27:01.600] You know, you should build big spaces
[27:01.600 -> 27:03.600] where people can come together
[27:03.600 -> 27:05.120] and deliberate, just
[27:05.120 -> 27:07.080] like the original.
[27:07.080 -> 27:12.040] The original, where the word democracy came from, was from the Greek polis.
[27:12.040 -> 27:16.840] But we have big spaces where people come together and when they come together, they get dispersed
[27:16.840 -> 27:21.360] by the police and they pass new bills, making it illegal to get together and share your
[27:21.360 -> 27:25.440] opinion or they walk down the street telling people not
[27:25.440 -> 27:30.200] to be using their cars and the media vilify those people, so it then suddenly seems okay
[27:30.200 -> 27:34.720] for the general public to attack them for doing that, or to boo them for caring about
[27:34.720 -> 27:35.720] the environment.
[27:35.720 -> 27:41.240] Because the people don't have any power. But if you begin to transfer the power to
[27:41.240 -> 27:47.120] the people, like in the Republic of Ireland, they've now had
[27:47.120 -> 27:55.400] a citizens' assembly on drug abuse, a citizens' assembly on the problem of the ageing population.
[27:55.400 -> 28:01.760] The embryo is there, and I would like to see that developed, but it needs really clever
[28:01.760 -> 28:08.200] people. I mean, we are really clever. The human race, you know,
[28:08.200 -> 28:14.680] is walking on the moon, we're now going to go to Mars. And then here we are, you know,
[28:14.680 -> 28:19.840] on our little planet, ruining it and making it, wiping it out.
[28:19.840 -> 28:22.920] Matthew And it feels like the wrong people are leading
[28:22.920 -> 28:23.920] the world as well.
[28:23.920 -> 28:24.920] Angela Absolutely.
[28:24.920 -> 28:25.000] Matthew Do you know what I mean? Angela Absolutely. Matthew We're promoting the wrong people are leading the world as well. Absolutely.
[28:25.000 -> 28:26.000] Do you know what I mean?
[28:26.000 -> 28:27.000] Absolutely.
[28:27.000 -> 28:29.000] We're promoting the wrong type of people perhaps.
[28:29.000 -> 28:31.000] Do you think that?
[28:31.000 -> 28:32.000] It's absolutely that.
[28:32.000 -> 28:33.000] Absolutely that.
[28:33.000 -> 28:35.000] You know, it's all top down, isn't it?
[28:35.000 -> 28:37.000] It's all top down leadership.
[28:37.000 -> 28:41.000] And then we've got the extreme people everywhere dotted about.
[28:41.000 -> 28:50.120] And I just feel we are capable of doing anything. Why are we not capable of
[28:50.120 -> 28:55.760] making our world a place of peace and harmony? And is the biggest challenge
[28:55.760 -> 29:00.920] here that this is about control? The people who are already in control would
[29:00.920 -> 29:14.240] never relinquish control to allow the people to take control? Well, the other way around, if the people begin to, I would say, you know, if that thing
[29:14.240 -> 29:22.320] grows, then sooner or later, you know, it's the people themselves who are decide making
[29:22.320 -> 29:28.880] the decisions. And I can be blown away by cynics, but we need clever
[29:28.880 -> 29:34.320] people. I'm not clever enough to work out how that would happen. But all I know now
[29:34.320 -> 29:40.960] is, I mean, in America, the founding fathers of America, that was their original vision.
[29:40.960 -> 29:47.720] Was that everybody would be involved. And they were all involved in the revolution.
[29:47.720 -> 29:52.600] But then, the founding fathers at the end of it, all the people went away and now we're
[29:52.600 -> 29:58.520] in charge. And then it gets handed on, handed on. And so it's everywhere. It's a few people
[29:58.520 -> 30:00.600] in charge of a lot of people.
[30:00.600 -> 30:02.480] Mason And when you put it that way, it doesn't seem
[30:02.480 -> 30:06.320] right. It isn't, it isn't. But it needs
[30:06.320 -> 30:12.720] clever people who are very clever at writing about what's wrong to say, come on, let's
[30:12.720 -> 30:19.520] put it right. But we can, we can do it. We are humanity. Look what we've achieved. There
[30:19.520 -> 30:27.000] is no reason why we can't do it. Obviously, when you talk in this way, there will be some people that decide to be critical.
[30:27.000 -> 30:33.680] You know, people expect Delia to be a certain type of person. Would you explain to our audience
[30:33.680 -> 30:35.960] how you deal with criticism?
[30:35.960 -> 30:48.560] Well, all my life, you know, I've had quite a lot of criticism, so I've had quite a lot of practice. Because I used to be slammed for being boring and not being
[30:48.560 -> 30:54.040] a sort of ambitious chef, making everybody gasp when they ate something. I was just doing
[30:54.040 -> 30:59.920] the Yorkshire puddings. And so I got a lot of criticism for that. I still get a lot of
[30:59.920 -> 31:09.800] criticism. I think now I'm sure of my ground. I am 82 after all, I've had a long, long time
[31:09.800 -> 31:16.840] to get to this stage, but I'm quite sure of my ground and I understand that people won't
[31:16.840 -> 31:22.480] agree with me. I mean, you know, if I just stood up now and said, look, you've got to
[31:22.480 -> 31:28.360] close the House of Commons, it's not working, I would get quite a bit of criticism.
[31:28.360 -> 31:29.360] Toby Yeah.
[31:29.360 -> 31:34.160] And for those who still struggle with criticism, what advice would you give to them?
[31:34.160 -> 31:39.880] Angela To be self-actualized, to accept yourself.
[31:39.880 -> 31:46.800] If you can get rid of your ego, I think ego is something that we have to grapple with. And
[31:46.800 -> 31:55.240] if we can get rid of that, and learn how to be humble, then you can cope with it, I think,
[31:55.240 -> 31:56.240] better.
[31:56.240 -> 31:57.840] Toby Tell us more about that. Why is the ego so
[31:57.840 -> 31:58.840] dangerous?
[31:58.840 -> 32:06.800] Angela Because I've just watched it over my career happen to people. You know, they go up in the world
[32:06.800 -> 32:12.400] and then they suddenly become, you know, it's I, me and myself, isn't it? And it's,
[32:14.480 -> 32:24.160] I think, a person who can't ever say they're wrong. So if you're struggling with
[32:27.120 -> 32:27.840] who can't ever say they're wrong. So if you're struggling with criticism, people criticizing you,
[32:33.520 -> 32:36.080] go with it. Go with the flow. Okay, right. I've got that wrong. You know? Matthew 15 What if there's a sense of injustice,
[32:36.080 -> 32:41.280] though? I mean, I'll give you a real world example. It's pained me many occasions when
[32:41.280 -> 32:49.360] I've gone to Norwich, knowing the love you have for that club, the love you have for the fans, how perilous the future of Norwich was when you bought it,
[32:49.360 -> 32:54.560] the sacrifices you've made financially and personally to hold the football club in the
[32:54.560 -> 32:58.980] right way, the fact you don't call yourself an owner, you call yourself the current custodian
[32:58.980 -> 33:03.320] of Norwich, the fact you're a fan before you're a majority shareholder.
[33:03.320 -> 33:06.160] Yeah, I've heard tens of thousands of people chanting,
[33:06.160 -> 33:07.520] Dealey you're out in the stadium.
[33:07.520 -> 33:08.240] Yeah.
[33:08.240 -> 33:16.080] So how do you deal with it? A real truth about actually how that feels when it feels so unjust.
[33:16.720 -> 33:22.240] I think in the beginning, in the very beginning, it did hurt.
[33:30.400 -> 33:35.160] it did hurt. But I think the way to deal with it is to just accept it. I mean, I know when I close my eyes at night and go to bed, I've done everything I could ever possibly do for
[33:35.160 -> 33:40.760] Norwich City Football Club. There isn't anything more I could do. And therefore, I know that.
[33:40.760 -> 33:47.000] I know that's what I do. And I have supporters coming up to me all the time saying,
[33:47.000 -> 33:52.320] don't take any notice Delia, don't take any notice. You know, I'll tell you how I dealt
[33:52.320 -> 33:57.880] with one. And it's such a wonderful thing. I can't tell you how wonderful I felt. I was
[33:57.880 -> 34:02.640] walking down Carrow Road and we just lost and it was years ago. I had to go early because
[34:02.640 -> 34:05.640] I was doing a television program the next day.
[34:05.640 -> 34:10.680] I had to leave early, we were losing badly, so Carrow Row was empty and there's this supporter
[34:10.680 -> 34:16.320] coming up. And he came up to me right up close and he said, you have brought our football
[34:16.320 -> 34:25.000] club into the gutter. And all I can say to you is, will you please go? Answer?
[34:25.000 -> 34:30.000] Well, I still love you.
[34:30.000 -> 34:33.920] And what was the reaction?
[34:33.920 -> 34:36.200] The stewards were all rushing, saying, you all right?
[34:36.200 -> 34:37.200] Do you need any help?
[34:37.200 -> 34:38.200] You know, it's so wonderful.
[34:38.200 -> 34:39.200] Did you mean that?
[34:39.200 -> 34:41.860] Yeah, I did mean it.
[34:41.860 -> 34:47.600] It's so wonderful to be able to deal with it in a humble way, because it
[34:47.600 -> 34:50.960] disarms people. It so disarms them.
[34:50.960 -> 34:59.080] Toby Cullen-Keller, but when I do get upset, very upset, if I hear people slagging off
[34:59.080 -> 35:04.160] somebody else that I love, then I get really upset. That hurts me.
[35:04.160 -> 35:05.160] Toby Cullen- me. Like who?
[35:05.160 -> 35:10.720] Recently, the supporters were doing a bit of a chant that I didn't like. And it wasn't
[35:10.720 -> 35:11.720] about me.
[35:11.720 -> 35:17.840] Right. About someone else on the board or... Why does that hurt you so much more?
[35:17.840 -> 35:26.920] Because I know, I know the work that goes into a football club, how hard it is and daily toil and the work that goes
[35:26.920 -> 35:36.720] into it. I love the supporters and I think that 90% of them understand it. I'm sure,
[35:36.720 -> 35:42.960] but there's these 10% of whingers. So they're all in a space now. They're 10% of whingers.
[35:42.960 -> 35:54.280] Okay. They just win John.
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[38:11.280 -> 38:15.680] I'm really intrigued to sort of explore the topic of humility with you. Yes. Because I've never met anyone that has had their first name coined as a
[38:15.680 -> 38:19.040] in the Oxford English Dictionary or anyone that sold
[38:19.040 -> 38:22.720] hundreds of millions of books like you have. So I've been lucky.
[38:22.720 -> 38:25.240] I'm exceptionally lucky. But that's the humility that we're talking about. When we start, before we record, he said I don't. So I've been
[38:22.120 -> 38:26.880] lucky, I'm exceptionally lucky. But that's the humility that
[38:25.240 -> 38:28.440] we're talking about, when we start before
[38:26.880 -> 38:30.800] we've got it, he said I don't know what I've
[38:28.440 -> 38:33.040] got to offer here, that's that humility
[38:30.800 -> 38:35.880] that's integral to you. Yeah. But I'm
[38:33.040 -> 38:37.680] interested in how do you maintain
[38:35.880 -> 38:40.040] that, because you said you've identified
[38:37.680 -> 38:41.920] people who was their star has risen, they've
[38:40.040 -> 38:44.360] almost lost that humility and it's
[38:41.920 -> 38:46.480] cost them, but this is something that's
[38:44.360 -> 38:50.640] innate and natural to you and I'm interested in where it comes from and how you maintain it.
[38:50.640 -> 39:00.960] I don't know really. I mean, I think, I don't think anyone achieves anything without a lot
[39:00.960 -> 39:06.840] of other people. So I think my parents brought me up. They were
[39:06.840 -> 39:16.040] always quite critical. And my mother, who only died about two years ago, was always
[39:16.040 -> 39:21.000] really critical. So I had this sort of, you know, there was no chance, really.
[39:21.000 -> 39:26.360] Matthew In what context would she be critical? Oh, in every single way. There would
[39:26.360 -> 39:32.520] be this, you know, this criticism. And then I met my agent, who has been my agent for
[39:32.520 -> 39:37.080] 50 years, and she was really good, you know, keeping my feet on the ground. People would
[39:37.080 -> 39:40.880] be coming in with offers and she's saying, you don't need that. You don't need to do
[39:40.880 -> 39:46.300] that. You know, I think she was a huge help to me. My husband's been a huge help to me
[39:46.720 -> 39:49.940] Melanie sitting outside has been a great help to me and other people
[39:50.340 -> 39:54.640] Nobody does anything achieves anything without a lot of other people being involved
[39:55.000 -> 39:58.200] but again that humility can sometimes be
[39:58.640 -> 40:04.320] rare to recognize it people love the idea of the self-made narrative of I put myself up by
[40:04.680 -> 40:07.040] Bootstraps and that sort of story is
[40:07.400 -> 40:09.880] common in our culture and yet you're
[40:10.400 -> 40:17.800] Willingly acknowledging the community and the people around you. Yes, and I'm interested if you'll tell us about how you've maintained
[40:18.520 -> 40:26.880] That community in that culture to allow you to stay grounded. I don't know, I think if you really are humble, there's
[40:26.880 -> 40:30.920] always going to be a bit of ego there. It's never going to go completely, it's going to
[40:30.920 -> 40:40.000] be lurking around. But I don't know, I just have to say how lucky I am, I'm really lucky.
[40:40.000 -> 40:43.680] You know, I'm lucky that I had Debbie, my agent. I don't think she really did help me
[40:43.680 -> 40:46.360] a lot. How did you meet?
[40:46.360 -> 40:51.120] Because again, that's like your parents you're blessed with, but you've chosen Debbie.
[40:51.120 -> 40:53.840] You know, I went to see her.
[40:53.840 -> 41:01.800] So I go and see this literary agent, you know, and I'm working in a restaurant saying, you
[41:01.800 -> 41:06.120] know, I'd like to write a cookery book on 18th century English cooking. You
[41:06.120 -> 41:13.840] know, it's the same thing. And she said, oh, right. And she believed in me. She just believed
[41:13.840 -> 41:19.160] in me. And she went to her boss, because she was working in an agency, he said, oh, don't
[41:19.160 -> 41:30.160] touch cookery writers. You know, you'll never earn any money out of a cookery writer. Don't worry about that. And so, we never got a book published, but she just rang up
[41:30.160 -> 41:33.880] a magazine one day that was looking for a cookery writer and said, can I send
[41:33.880 -> 41:37.360] someone? And she sent me and I got the job. So that's how it happened.
[41:37.360 -> 41:41.880] So what did she see in you? Have you ever asked her, like, why did she believe in
[41:41.880 -> 41:45.080] something, like saying, I want to write a book on 18th
[41:45.080 -> 41:46.080] century cookery.
[41:46.080 -> 41:49.320] I've heard her say one thing about me.
[41:49.320 -> 41:57.560] One thing she said, don't be fooled by this charming, lovely, then young person underneath
[41:57.560 -> 41:59.680] their steel, she'd say.
[41:59.680 -> 42:00.680] That's fascinating.
[42:00.680 -> 42:06.720] I'd like to touch on that, we can talk about how humble you are,
[42:06.720 -> 42:10.340] we can talk about your humility, but you also are the majority shareholder of a football
[42:10.340 -> 42:15.640] club and decisions need to be made, right? So how would you say you've created or built
[42:15.640 -> 42:19.240] the culture at Norwich City, for example?
[42:19.240 -> 42:26.480] It's a community thing. I think it was a great football club before I went, when we were just sitting in
[42:26.480 -> 42:31.920] our season ticket seats. It was a great football club, you know, there was something very special
[42:31.920 -> 42:40.880] about it. But I think we have, Michael and I, and he's, you know, 50% of this, we have tried
[42:40.880 -> 42:47.440] to create an ethos that is a family club, that is in the community, but
[42:47.440 -> 42:52.280] then there's been a lot of other people as well who have helped us along the way.
[42:52.280 -> 42:57.000] You can't do this without at times taking risk. I'd love to find out your
[42:57.000 -> 43:01.200] relationship with risk. For those that don't know, would you just explain
[43:01.200 -> 43:07.200] actually how perilous Norwich City's life was when you became the
[43:07.200 -> 43:10.320] majority shareholders or when you invested for the very first time?
[43:10.320 -> 43:17.840] Yes, I can. We were asked to be board directors because it was on the brink of bankruptcy.
[43:17.840 -> 43:18.560] But how close?
[43:20.160 -> 43:25.960] There were people sharing jobs, you know, they had two people for one job that shared
[43:25.960 -> 43:34.640] it and they were about to take off the electricity and there was a chairman, bless him, who just
[43:34.640 -> 43:49.760] marched around the city trying to get some money. And then in desperation you know, to me, because then I was selling cookery books, he said, if you
[43:49.760 -> 43:58.640] would be able to put a million pounds in, then you could have a seat on the board. Not
[43:58.640 -> 44:06.800] that I knew what a board was, but I immediately said Michael was the football expert, not me. I was the Johnny
[44:06.800 -> 44:12.640] Come Lately who went with Michael. So I said, well, if we gave you two million, could we
[44:12.640 -> 44:17.800] have two seats on the board? And they said, yes. And that's how it happened. And so we
[44:17.800 -> 44:26.080] spent the first few years sitting around a board table discussing how to service debt.
[44:26.920 -> 44:28.040] It was that bad?
[44:30.840 -> 44:33.560] How to service debt, how to service debt. And we didn't come out of debt
[44:33.560 -> 44:35.940] until about completely out of debt.
[44:35.940 -> 44:38.800] I'm saying when we were completely out of debt,
[44:38.800 -> 44:43.800] i.e. Michael and I got some of our loans back five years ago.
[44:44.180 -> 44:45.680] That was the first time.
[44:45.680 -> 44:47.960] So how long was that?
[44:47.960 -> 44:49.160] 20 years.
[44:49.160 -> 44:50.000] Wow.
[44:50.000 -> 44:51.520] So what is your relationship like with risk then?
[44:51.520 -> 44:52.800] Because that is a big risk,
[44:52.800 -> 44:54.560] two million pounds of your money
[44:54.560 -> 44:56.600] effectively into a business that was struggling.
[44:56.600 -> 44:58.280] Well, it wasn't.
[44:58.280 -> 44:59.680] Because Michael and I,
[45:01.060 -> 45:03.240] we went down the garden one day,
[45:03.240 -> 45:05.360] sat on a seat at the end of the garden and said,
[45:05.360 -> 45:10.280] well, what do we want to do with this money? What do we want to do with it? We don't want
[45:10.280 -> 45:16.360] anything. There's nothing we want. So we lived in a lovely little house, cottage. We didn't
[45:16.360 -> 45:22.400] need anything. But what we did want was our football club to succeed. That's what we really
[45:22.400 -> 45:25.520] wanted. So why? That wasn't a risk. You want your football club to succeed. That's what we really wanted. So why, that wasn't a risk. You want
[45:25.520 -> 45:29.480] your football club to succeed.
[45:29.480 -> 45:35.100] Now here we are a few decades later. I think I'm right in saying no club has been promoted
[45:35.100 -> 45:38.380] and relegated from the Premier League more times than Norwich City. So it's certainly
[45:38.380 -> 45:42.940] been a roller coaster ride, right? Plenty of highs and plenty of lows. And there is
[45:42.940 -> 45:45.200] now American investment on the horizon, I
[45:45.200 -> 45:48.800] think I'm right in saying. No, that's yesterday confirmed. Yeah. So is that an
[45:48.800 -> 45:55.920] equal shareholding now? Yes, yes. So how does that sit with you? Well, it started
[45:55.920 -> 46:00.880] with one of our board directors, Michael Fulger, wanting to sell his shares and so
[46:00.880 -> 46:06.840] we went out and found a broker to see who would be interested in investing in a
[46:06.840 -> 46:12.840] football club, and they found four different Americans.
[46:12.840 -> 46:21.840] And we looked at them, we decided on one, he came over, and he bought Michael Fulger's
[46:21.840 -> 46:26.720] shares but also put some money in to the club as well.
[46:26.720 -> 46:33.320] And we had an agreement that he put a time limit. He said, well, in seven years time,
[46:33.320 -> 46:50.160] you sell me the club or you pay me the money know. And then, unfortunately, after COVID, we got
[46:50.160 -> 47:00.480] into debt again. Not quite back to square one, but pretty hard, you know. So, in order
[47:00.480 -> 47:09.040] to try and help the debt, we released some of our shares. So he's now got 40% and
[47:09.040 -> 47:13.840] we've got 40%. So in that initial meeting, how much of it
[47:13.840 -> 47:19.680] was about the finances and the way you structured that seven-year agreement and how much of
[47:19.680 -> 47:29.360] it was about the values that you'd obviously bought into? Well, Mark Antanasio has a baseball club
[47:29.840 -> 47:33.240] called the Milwaukee Brewers.
[47:33.240 -> 47:36.480] And it's more or less the same story as Norwich.
[47:36.480 -> 47:38.680] You know, he took it over when it was,
[47:38.680 -> 47:41.680] and then he brought it up and now they're right at the top.
[47:42.880 -> 47:46.560] We did a lot of homework, we did a lot of due diligence. They're
[47:46.560 -> 47:52.280] very much community people, they believe in community. It seems like a good match, it
[47:52.280 -> 47:59.040] really, really does. But I can tell you now, if it isn't, we're not going to give up our
[47:59.040 -> 48:02.840] 40 million share, whatever it is we've got. Yeah.
[48:02.840 -> 48:06.240] And being vulnerable for a moment, is there any
[48:06.240 -> 48:11.240] fear or a sense of sadness that you're no longer the majority shareholder?
[48:11.240 -> 48:16.200] Norwich has been a North star for you for so long. Definitely, yeah, definitely.
[48:16.200 -> 48:22.560] But it doesn't matter because we're only there for the good of the football
[48:22.560 -> 48:28.960] club and we feel very strongly that we've got to give it up
[48:28.960 -> 48:35.040] now because of our age. We have to, there's no way we're going to be still. So therefore,
[48:35.040 -> 48:41.000] our passion now is to get the right people. And so far, it looks good.
[48:41.000 -> 48:45.840] I'm so pleased. And as a Norwich City fan, I hope it's the right decision.
[48:45.840 -> 48:52.400] Yeah, I mean, I can't say I'm going to miss going to boring board meetings when that ends.
[48:53.280 -> 49:00.240] Before we move to our quickfire questions, and this relates to your freedom and the book that
[49:00.240 -> 49:03.680] you recently released, which is incredible, we'd recommend it to anyone you matter.
[49:04.800 -> 49:09.720] What's the one thing you would love people to do after listening to this conversation?
[49:09.720 -> 49:15.040] I'm going to use a Damien phrase here. Look at the bigger picture. Look at the bigger
[49:15.040 -> 49:27.200] picture. The world isn't right. And look at yourself and find out what you can do to help make the world a better place and that involves other people.
[49:28.000 -> 49:34.480] But everybody, there isn't anyone born who doesn't have a role, who can't add something.
[49:34.480 -> 49:36.640] Mason And if their brain automatically says to them,
[49:36.640 -> 49:43.360] hey, you're just an individual in the vastness of this planet, you can't have an impact.
[49:43.360 -> 49:46.160] What would you say to them?
[49:46.160 -> 49:51.400] Go somewhere where you can have an impact. Join football. Join somewhere where you're
[49:51.400 -> 49:58.160] going to be with other people. Because other people, you can spend all day on your own
[49:58.160 -> 50:08.880] dreaming, you know, that's not going to help you. But if you could be relate to other people and understand that
[50:08.880 -> 50:15.760] they're all struggling the same way you're struggling and make a difference and let's
[50:15.760 -> 50:20.800] not put up with what we're putting up with. We're putting up with things and we shouldn't be.
[50:21.520 -> 50:28.400] Delia, time for the quick fire questions. I know you listen to the podcast, so you've heard a few of these over the years. What are the
[50:28.400 -> 50:33.600] three non-negotiable behaviors that you and ideally the people around you as well should
[50:33.600 -> 50:34.600] really buy into?
[50:34.600 -> 50:41.400] Deirdre McCloskey Truth. Definitely that's the key to everything.
[50:41.400 -> 50:47.000] Respect for other people, behavior towards other people, and humility.
[50:47.000 -> 50:53.000] We've covered some of this in terms of your greatest weakness, but also your biggest strength.
[50:53.000 -> 51:03.000] Risk. I think, you know, the spur of the moment, okay, the brain's not engaged, but the heart is, you know, bump, do it.
[51:03.000 -> 51:06.000] That's her biggest strength. Yeah, I love that.
[51:06.000 -> 51:08.000] I don't know, I think so.
[51:08.000 -> 51:09.000] I think it is.
[51:09.000 -> 51:11.000] Other people might be able to tell you more.
[51:11.000 -> 51:17.000] Talking of other people, what is the thing that you feel people get wrong or misunderstand most about you?
[51:17.000 -> 51:26.000] I don't know, I think I might come across sometimes as being a bit of a goody, you know, and I'm not.
[51:26.000 -> 51:29.000] That's my husband.
[51:29.000 -> 51:33.000] What advice would you give to a teenage dealer just starting out?
[51:33.000 -> 51:38.000] Only one thing, and I've thought about this a lot and I've said it when I'm with young people,
[51:38.000 -> 51:46.960] don't be afraid to fail. If you're not afraid to fail, you can do anything. Anything, if you're not afraid to fail.
[51:46.960 -> 51:50.040] Live with failure, it's not always gonna work.
[51:50.040 -> 51:52.000] You're not always gonna be right.
[51:52.000 -> 51:54.440] Can you give us an example of your biggest failure
[51:54.440 -> 51:56.480] and what you learned from it?
[51:56.480 -> 51:59.040] Not getting in the premiership for five years.
[51:59.040 -> 52:02.280] And why was that a failure?
[52:03.800 -> 52:12.040] Because Michael and I, our ambition was to be able to somehow or other do it without
[52:12.040 -> 52:13.040] the money.
[52:13.040 -> 52:18.200] You know, we're self-funding, everybody's got lashings of money everywhere.
[52:18.200 -> 52:22.920] And if we could actually achieve that, that's what my dearest wish of achievement would
[52:22.920 -> 52:25.000] be.
[52:25.000 -> 52:28.200] And my other achievement would be to,
[52:28.200 -> 52:31.880] would want to do is change politics.
[52:31.880 -> 52:33.360] Delia, I've loved this conversation.
[52:33.360 -> 52:34.960] I've absolutely loved it.
[52:34.960 -> 52:38.480] The final question is your last message really
[52:38.480 -> 52:41.440] to the people that have sat and listened to this,
[52:41.440 -> 52:43.640] what would you love to leave ringing in their ears
[52:43.640 -> 52:46.240] about living their own high-performance life?
[52:46.240 -> 52:51.520] Learn to love yourself and then you'll love everyone.
[52:51.520 -> 52:53.480] Thank you so much.
[52:53.480 -> 52:54.480] Thank you.
[52:54.480 -> 52:55.480] Did you enjoy it?
[52:55.480 -> 52:57.080] I did, I did.
[52:57.080 -> 53:01.040] And I couldn't go on about it, but I learned so much from your book.
[53:01.040 -> 53:02.040] Oh, well, thank you.
[53:02.040 -> 53:03.040] That's really lovely.
[53:03.040 -> 53:09.680] Ditto the bigger picture and the behavior. I mean, is an amazing book. Oh well thank you, that's
[53:09.680 -> 53:13.500] really kind but your book is as well. I mean I thought it was so
[53:13.500 -> 53:17.980] beautifully written and this is a great manifestation of it. Oh thank you, well
[53:17.980 -> 53:23.040] you had a big influence on me. I did say so, I said he should be the Minister of
[53:23.040 -> 53:28.000] Education. So that children could learn from day one.
[53:28.000 -> 53:32.000] The big takeaway for me in this conversation is empowering people.
[53:32.000 -> 53:36.000] Like, I do feel that people are told all the time that they have no power,
[53:36.000 -> 53:40.000] and you believe the total opposite of that, and I think that that is,
[53:40.000 -> 53:43.000] if you don't believe in humanity, what do you believe in?
[53:43.000 -> 53:44.000] Yeah.
[53:44.000 -> 53:48.000] People arrive on the earth and want to live a good life, do good things,
[53:48.000 -> 53:52.080] create good stuff, leave good memories. Something gets in the way.
[53:52.880 -> 54:02.080] Yeah. It's awesome, isn't it? It is really, really awesome. But how to, I don't know,
[54:11.920 -> 54:16.680] how to, I don't know, how to, I think it's just, you know, it's just like my age now. But Debbie said to me, my agent said to me when I was 70, okay, you can say what you
[54:16.680 -> 54:22.480] like now. Because all my, all my career, like, don't say that. Don't say that. You know,
[54:22.480 -> 54:26.560] she taught me very early on, don't criticize. You know,
[54:26.560 -> 54:31.120] just if somebody has a go at you, don't try and answer back. You know, I've had a lot
[54:31.120 -> 54:38.080] of people helping me. And I can remember one day, I wanted to say something about Mrs.
[54:38.080 -> 54:46.000] Thatcher. She said, no, no, no, no. She said, one thing you can learn from her is she never answered. She never answered
[54:46.000 -> 54:49.000] any criticism. So she taught me that.
[54:49.000 -> 54:58.360] Damien, Jake, look, if this podcast exists to do anything, it's to challenge people's
[54:58.360 -> 55:03.320] thinking and it's to allow them to see a side of someone that they just wouldn't normally
[55:03.320 -> 55:07.320] see. And I think that that conversation with Delia Smith has done both.
[55:07.320 -> 55:12.480] Definitely yeah I think challenge convention, make you think, go back and
[55:12.480 -> 55:17.880] reappraise what you once believed to be true and I think some people might have
[55:17.880 -> 55:21.960] come into this wanting to hear the wisdom of a multimillion selling chef,
[55:21.960 -> 55:27.960] some people might have come in to hear the custodian of a football club. I think what we've been lucky enough to hear is
[55:27.960 -> 55:33.040] somebody at 83 years of age condensing all that wisdom and telling us how to
[55:33.040 -> 55:37.560] apply it to our own lives. And you might agree, you might not, but the fact that
[55:37.560 -> 55:41.960] you're stopping and listening is the value of this. I think also we can say
[55:41.960 -> 55:49.120] like, is that a high-performance conversation? And now it's not high performance conversation in the typical, um, what time do you get out
[55:49.120 -> 55:52.640] of bed? How relentless are you? What's your mindset? How do you build a culture? How do
[55:52.640 -> 55:57.520] you hire and fire people? All of those conversations we've had many times over the years, but actually
[55:57.520 -> 56:03.600] almost a pause and have a conversation about the almost infinite power of a human being.
[56:03.600 -> 56:06.600] Whether we underestimate now the power that we have,
[56:06.600 -> 56:09.800] what our future could look like if we took control of it,
[56:09.800 -> 56:12.400] the incredible optimism that Delia Smith has,
[56:12.400 -> 56:16.200] the fact that she believes and sees the good in everybody.
[56:16.200 -> 56:19.800] Like, it's very easy to argue that that is high performance.
[56:19.800 -> 56:22.200] Us, you know, that self-actualization,
[56:22.200 -> 56:24.200] becoming the very best versions of ourselves,
[56:24.200 -> 56:25.800] isn't that high performance?
[56:25.800 -> 56:32.320] Well, that's what Abraham Maslow, the psychologist that coined that term self-actualization,
[56:32.320 -> 56:37.520] would tell us is the panacea. That's what we're all aiming for, that once we've covered
[56:37.520 -> 56:42.880] our needs of shelter and food and belonging, then that idea of just being the person we
[56:42.880 -> 56:46.200] were meant to be is a textbook
[56:46.200 -> 56:50.060] definition of high performance and I think it's really refreshing to hear
[56:50.060 -> 56:55.120] Delia come and remind us of that wisdom and challenge us to seek answers
[56:55.120 -> 57:01.720] ourselves. And I know that deep down the book You Matter, which is a lifetime of
[57:01.720 -> 57:04.640] learnings and lessons put into a book, right? She would have loved that to have
[57:04.640 -> 57:05.920] sold millions of copies just like our cook book, right? She would have loved that to have sold millions of copies
[57:05.920 -> 57:07.800] just like her cookbooks, right?
[57:07.800 -> 57:11.200] But actually, many, many people have released books
[57:11.200 -> 57:13.000] about how to make a great lasagna
[57:13.000 -> 57:15.160] and the best way to do a Sunday roast
[57:15.160 -> 57:17.440] or some incredible Yorkshire puddings, right?
[57:18.480 -> 57:21.680] No one else has written what she's written
[57:21.680 -> 57:23.000] with the mindset that she has
[57:23.000 -> 57:24.920] and the set of beliefs that she has.
[57:24.920 -> 57:28.640] And I think that that book will go on to be more impactful possibly than
[57:28.640 -> 57:32.300] anything else she's ever done and it might take a long time but it will get
[57:32.300 -> 57:37.280] there because it puts people it puts people at the center of the universe.
[57:37.280 -> 57:41.480] Yeah and I was lucky enough when Delia was in the process of writing the book
[57:41.480 -> 57:46.120] to meet with her and to chat about some of
[57:44.120 -> 57:48.400] the ideas that she was doing and just
[57:46.120 -> 57:51.600] her innate curiosity, her willingness to go
[57:48.400 -> 57:55.280] and explore lines of thought and to go and
[57:51.600 -> 57:58.200] research topics that she was intrigued
[57:55.280 -> 58:00.240] by is all contained there in that book
[57:58.200 -> 58:02.840] and I'd advocate that anybody that's
[58:00.240 -> 58:05.080] interested in the conversation we've had
[58:02.840 -> 58:05.920] go and pick up a copy of you matter and
[58:05.920 -> 58:10.600] go and explore those trains of thought that Delia puts down on the page.
[58:10.600 -> 58:15.760] I love the way she thinks and I also love the fact that she sat down before the interview
[58:15.760 -> 58:18.800] before we started recording and said I've listened to many of these episodes and I don't
[58:18.800 -> 58:23.800] believe I can offer you any value and here we are an hour or so later and the value is
[58:23.800 -> 58:25.000] hopefully there for all to see.
[58:25.000 -> 58:30.000] So, you know what, if you've listened to this, reach out to Delia and let her know how valuable you found that conversation.
[58:30.000 -> 58:32.000] I know I will be. So thanks, Damo.
[58:32.000 -> 58:33.000] Thanks, mate. Loved it.
[58:36.000 -> 58:38.000] Well, as always, I'd love to know what you made of that conversation.
[58:38.000 -> 58:42.000] Don't forget, you can also join the millions who watch our content on YouTube.
[58:42.000 -> 58:48.680] You can subscribe right there and you can see the conversations as well as listen to them. And I think sometimes it just gives
[58:48.680 -> 58:53.240] you a little bit more of an insight into the emotion in the room when we cover all of these
[58:53.240 -> 58:57.320] deep topics that we love to talk about. You can also download the High Performance app,
[58:57.320 -> 59:01.160] see all the conversations there and also get daily boosts which will take you closer to
[59:01.160 -> 59:07.000] your own version of High Performance. Just go to the App Store and use your unique code HPAPP.
[59:07.000 -> 59:11.920] Look, thank you so much for continuing to share these conversations. That is the way
[59:11.920 -> 59:16.560] that this podcast channel can grow and we can reach even more people. So do continue
[59:16.560 -> 59:20.800] to spread the learnings from these conversations wherever you are in the world. Chase world
[59:20.800 -> 59:27.000] class basics. Don't get high on your own supply, and remember, high performance looks different to everyone,
[59:27.000 -> 59:29.000] so chase your own version.
[59:29.000 -> 59:59.360] Thanks for listening. These days, every new potential hire can feel like a high-stakes wager for your small business.
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