Culture Coach Dr Pippa Grange on the importance of vulnerability | Bitesize #84

These bitesize episodes focus on the greatest lessons we’ve learnt from the guests we've had on the podcast. 

This week we go back to episode 103 with sports psychologist and culture coach Dr Pippa Grange. Pippa was appointment by the FA as its Head of People and Team Development with the England football team and worked with the players during the buildup to the successful World Cup in 2018 on relationships, getting the players to drop their mask and work with greater cohesion. This included getting the players to sit down together in small groups to share their life experiences and anxieties, and to reveal intimate truths about their character and what drives them. 

Listen to the full fantastic interview with Pippa. She takes us through the different types of fear we experience, where they originate and how to overcome them: https://www.thehighperformancepodcast.com/podcast/pippagrange 

Listen to the full interview with England manager Gareth Southgate: https://www.thehighperformancepodcast.com/podcast/gareth-southgate

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In this podcast episode, sports psychologist and culture coach Dr. Pippa Grange is interviewed about the profound impact of vulnerability in fostering healthy relationships and fostering cohesion in teams.

Dr. Grange emphasizes the importance of shedding masks and embracing authenticity to build genuine connections with others. She highlights that vulnerability is not about exposing all personal details but rather allowing others to see the real you, creating an environment of trust and intimacy.

To encourage vulnerability in the workplace, leaders must model it themselves. By demonstrating vulnerability, leaders create a safe space for team members to do the same, leading to increased accountability, healthier dynamics, and improved problem-solving.

Dr. Grange also stresses the significance of using the phrase "I don't know" when appropriate. Acknowledging one's limitations and uncertainties empowers others to admit their own vulnerabilities, fostering a culture of learning and growth.

The podcast also features a preview of an upcoming episode with three English soccer legends: Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, and Peter Crouch. They discuss their experiences facing adversity, the impact of the 2020 Euros on the nation, and the importance of leaving no regrets on the field.

Overall, the podcast emphasizes the transformative power of vulnerability in building strong relationships, fostering team cohesion, and achieving success.

[00:00.000 -> 00:03.840] Hey everyone, welcome along to another Bitesize episode of the High Performance Podcast
[00:03.840 -> 00:08.000] and very soon the World Cup will be upon us. Are you excited Damien?
[00:08.000 -> 00:12.880] Yeah, I was going to say I'm starting to get excited. I think I will be when the first England game kicks off.
[00:12.880 -> 00:16.720] I just can't feel it for many, many reasons. No, I don't think I'll be watching to be honest.
[00:16.720 -> 00:22.080] But what we are going to be doing is talking about World Cup experiences on the podcast.
[00:22.080 -> 00:26.240] In fact, we will share a short clip with you at the end of this with the guests that join
[00:26.240 -> 00:31.600] Us on Monday, which will be cool, but we've had some really interesting footballers and football people in the podcast
[00:31.600 -> 00:37.660] but we've also had some fascinating people that have worked in the world of football and often Damien and I think people who come from
[00:37.660 -> 00:44.380] A different world and immerse themselves in football bringing cognitive diversity to that world are really interesting
[00:44.380 -> 00:46.080] This is Pippa Grange, mae hi'n
[00:46.080 -> 00:49.040] ffysiolog, mae hi wedi gweithio gyda'r tîm Cymru, ac
[00:49.040 -> 00:51.760] dyma Damien, mae Gareth Southgate wedi dweud yn amlwg
[00:51.760 -> 00:53.680] bod e'n helpu i wneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol, o'i chyd, o'i chyd.
[00:53.680 -> 00:57.440] Ie, rwy'n cofio, rwy'n gweithio ymlaen, mae'n 709 dydd o'r gwrthwyneb
[00:57.440 -> 01:00.560] yng nghyfraith Cymru i gael ei ddod o'r ffordd yn ddiddorol i
[01:00.560 -> 01:04.080] Iceland yn y Campionhappau Ewropeaidd 2016
[01:04.080 -> 01:08.000] i yna i ddod o'r ffordd semifinalau o'r Cwp Eiriaeth 2018.
[01:08.000 -> 01:12.000] Gallwch edrych ar y chwaraeant a oedd yn cael eu dod o hyd,
[01:12.000 -> 01:16.000] ond mae'n wir y byddai 13 chwaraeant yn ymwneud â'r diwrnod yma
[01:16.000 -> 01:19.000] yn Islenda, i fod yn ymwneud ag Croesia.
[01:19.000 -> 01:23.000] Felly mae'n bwysig iawn i ddweud pa sydd wedi cael ei dod o hyd
[01:23.000 -> 01:25.040] a'r cyfrifiad oedd. Pippa Grange, who came into
[01:25.040 -> 01:30.440] England in between that period and started to work on relationships, trying
[01:30.440 -> 01:35.020] to get the players to drop their mask, to be vulnerable, to start working with
[01:35.020 -> 01:39.080] greater cohesion. So when we got to speak to her it was an absolute privilege.
[01:39.080 -> 01:43.440] And that's exactly what she talked about. It was a fascinating, wide-ranging
[01:43.440 -> 01:46.920] interview on the High Performance Podcast. You can hear the whole interview, but here's a
[01:46.920 -> 01:52.080] snippet, exactly as Damien just mentioned, about the importance of vulnerability.
[01:52.080 -> 01:58.520] The best option is to show up as you, as best as you can. You know, so relationships
[01:58.520 -> 02:03.640] take us a while to build because we don't actually connect fully as
[02:03.640 -> 02:05.160] ourselves.
[02:08.040 -> 02:11.560] You know, there's lots of other reasons, but I'm honing in on that, that piece of it. You know, mostly we're in some kind
[02:11.560 -> 02:15.840] of performative mode, some kind of performance when we're in a
[02:15.840 -> 02:20.080] relationship and go on for months, can go on forever in
[02:20.080 -> 02:24.520] families and you know, where you show only a part of you or in
[02:24.520 -> 02:25.520] work relationships, you only show a part of you or in work relationships you
[02:25.520 -> 02:29.920] only show a part of you and it doesn't mean a full expose of who you are and everything
[02:29.920 -> 02:35.660] you feel to leave you in a massively vulnerable spot all the time but it's like what stops
[02:35.660 -> 02:39.320] me actually just showing up as me?
[02:39.320 -> 02:42.460] How can I take off the mask and show up as me?
[02:42.460 -> 02:45.520] And when you do that of, because of the energy of exchange
[02:45.520 -> 02:50.560] in relationships, the other person is so much more inclined to do it as well. And that's that,
[02:51.200 -> 02:57.280] you know, mysterious, erroneous little thing we call trust. That gets built much more quickly
[02:57.280 -> 03:02.560] and the depth of relationship opens up. So when you work, say, if we talk about a sporting
[03:02.560 -> 03:11.400] environment, but it's equally applicable in business or in a classroom, when you're working with a leader, what
[03:11.400 -> 03:16.760] kind of techniques would you encourage a leader to maybe think about or consider
[03:16.760 -> 03:22.360] adopting that encourage people to show up as they are rather than to wear that mask?
[03:22.880 -> 03:30.020] I think the first thing is starting with themselves, right? So you can't ask anybody else to stand in their
[03:30.020 -> 03:36.060] authentic self if you're not willing to do it as well. And for leaders,
[03:36.060 -> 03:42.240] coaches, captains, anybody, that's, you know, you guys have to do that on the
[03:42.240 -> 03:45.640] podcast all the time. You're trying to build a quick engagement,
[03:45.640 -> 03:48.360] not just an engagement, a quick relationship.
[03:48.360 -> 03:53.000] So the more open and honest and vulnerable and real you are,
[03:53.000 -> 03:55.680] the more you will get from your guest.
[03:55.680 -> 03:57.880] And I think that's the same for leaders
[03:57.880 -> 03:59.080] all over the place too.
[03:59.080 -> 04:04.080] It's like, can you first see where you're performing a bit
[04:04.440 -> 04:05.880] and you're worried about not being good
[04:05.880 -> 04:12.880] enough and can you let a little bit more of you into the room?
[04:12.880 -> 04:17.100] It really doesn't mean expose or you've got to tell them about your kids at the weekend
[04:17.100 -> 04:18.500] or whatever else.
[04:18.500 -> 04:19.500] It means engagement.
[04:19.500 -> 04:21.620] It means eye contact.
[04:21.620 -> 04:23.740] It means physical presence.
[04:23.740 -> 04:25.400] It means if you're going to inquire how
[04:25.400 -> 04:32.560] somebody is, mean it, ask, listen, respond. You know, it's like a type of intimacy.
[04:32.560 -> 04:36.920] I've made this point before, but we think about intimacy as something that
[04:36.920 -> 04:41.020] just happens in really close relationships, you know, partnerships or
[04:41.020 -> 04:48.560] families, right? Intimacy for me is a missing ingredient in our social lives, our professional lives.
[04:48.560 -> 04:51.720] You know, as we've moved away from community,
[04:51.720 -> 04:55.840] intimacy, we kind of like feel a bit awkward about it.
[04:55.840 -> 04:57.880] But it really just means showing up as you
[04:57.880 -> 04:59.480] and engaging and relating.
[05:01.840 -> 05:04.000] You see, that is a really interesting conversation
[05:04.000 -> 05:05.000] to have around elite sport. You spent your whole life going into dressing rooms Mae'n ddiddorol i gyd ymwneud â'r sport elit. Rydych chi wedi rhoi eich bywyd i mewn i'r ystafellau ddwylo
[05:05.000 -> 05:09.000] a gweithio gyda chwaraewyr sy'n byw mewn cyfrwng.
[05:09.000 -> 05:11.000] A allech chi ddweud o'ch perspectifu,
[05:11.000 -> 05:14.000] pam mae'n bwysig iawn?
[05:14.000 -> 05:17.000] Rwy'n credu, unwaith y byddwch chi'n cyrraedd
[05:17.000 -> 05:22.000] unrhyw le o gyfnodau yn y ystafell dwylo,
[05:22.000 -> 05:24.000] mae'r talent yn ymddangos yn unig.
[05:24.000 -> 05:25.000] Mae'n rhaid i gyd fod yn unig fel'r rhai arall. Mae'n rhaid i gyd fod yn unig fel'r rhai arall. mae yna lefel o ddysgu yn y ddynas.
[05:25.000 -> 05:27.000] Mae'r ddynas yn teimlo'n unig.
[05:27.000 -> 05:29.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w gilydd.
[05:29.000 -> 05:31.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:31.000 -> 05:32.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:32.000 -> 05:33.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:33.000 -> 05:34.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:34.000 -> 05:35.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:35.000 -> 05:36.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:36.000 -> 05:37.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:37.000 -> 05:38.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:38.000 -> 05:39.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:39.000 -> 05:40.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:40.000 -> 05:41.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:41.000 -> 05:42.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:42.000 -> 05:43.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:43.000 -> 05:44.000] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas.
[05:44.000 -> 05:49.840] Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas. Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas. Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w ddynas. Mae'n teimlo'n unig i'w pa mor ddiogel yw teimlo yn y amgylchedd honno a pha mor ddiogel yw eich gyrfa nhw. Ac rwy'n credu y bydd y gwaith y mae Pippa yn ei wneud
[05:49.840 -> 05:54.000] yn mynd i ni i'r ardal hwnnw o ddechrau i gael pobl i ddod o'r masg,
[05:54.000 -> 05:58.480] o ddechrau ar unrhyw ffotograff o'r rhai y maen nhw'n meddwl yw, ac yn gwblhau'r
[05:58.480 -> 06:02.800] ddynol o'i chyfan, ac wrth wneud hynny gallwn gysylltu ag eich un, rydyn ni'n
[06:02.800 -> 06:06.560] meddwl am eich un ac yn eithaf ein ffordd i fynd ymlaen i'wtu â'n gilydd, rydyn ni'n bwysig am eich un ac rydyn ni'n eithaf ein bod yn gallu mynd ymlaen
[06:06.560 -> 06:12.720] i'w helpu'n un. A beth yw'r cynnwys a'r ddiddorion a'r broblem o ran
[06:12.720 -> 06:16.960] ymddygiad, yn enwedig pan ydyn ni'n siarad am amgylcheddau chwaraeon elit, yw hyn
[06:16.960 -> 06:30.480] un o'r llwyddiant o ddiweddaru nad oedd hynny'n cael ei ystyried? Rwy'n credu, ie, rwy'n credu, byddwn yn cofio Johnny Wilkinson a dweud ei bod yn syniadau gyntaf. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn syniadau gyntaf am yr hyn rydyn ni'n ymdrech am yw'r sylwad o
[06:30.480 -> 06:35.200] neidio i unwaith, gan fod yr adroddiadau'n iawn, yn eithaf gwych a'n ymdrech,
[06:35.200 -> 06:42.240] pan fydd y reoliadau'n ymddangos llawer iawn o'r anodd o bobl yn teimlo
[06:42.240 -> 06:49.760] yn ymdrech neu yn teimlo'n anodd. Felly rydyn ni'n ofyn i'w masgu ac felly rydyn ni'n ofyn i'r anodd o bobl sy'n teimlo'n ymdrechion neu sy'n teimlo'n anodd. Felly, rydyn ni'n ofal yn ymwneud â'r cwmni, ac felly rydyn ni'n ofal yn ymwneud ag yr hyn rydyn ni'n gallu ei wneud.
[06:49.760 -> 06:52.320] Ond pan rydyn ni'n gofyn i bobl, bydwch chi'n eich hun.
[06:52.320 -> 06:56.960] Rwy'n credu bod Pippa yn siarad o'r ymdrech, yn unig fel Coleese,
[06:56.960 -> 06:59.680] pan ddewiswyd fel captain o'r tîm Africaidd.
[06:59.680 -> 07:01.760] Os oes chi'n cofio pan ydod o'n i'n ymwneud â ni,
[07:01.760 -> 07:08.320] yma ar y cyfnod cyntaf ydi sôn ag e i gyd o ran, yn ei chyflawni, yw'r captain yng nghaerdydd yng Nghymru pan ddechreuodd i'w cymdeithaswyr a dweud, dwi ddim yn gwybod'r cyfrifiad yn y sefyllfa hon,
[07:08.320 -> 07:13.280] rydych chi'n well i'w gwneud. Ac fe wnaeth e cyfrifiad yn y prysgol Cymreig.
[07:13.280 -> 07:16.960] Dyna ddim yr hyn y mae'n ei wneud yn y leol. Mae'n rhaid i'r leol gael'r cyfrifiad,
[07:16.960 -> 07:20.080] er mwyn iddo ddweud, rydych chi'n rhaid iddo fod yn hyderus.
[07:20.080 -> 07:22.800] Ac roedd yn rôl-modellu leolwyr o wahanol ffyrdd.
[07:22.800 -> 07:28.080] Ac rydyn ni'n mynd i'r era hwnnw o ddechrau gwybod y gwerth and he was a role model in a very different kind of leadership and with moving into that era of starting to appreciate the value that that can offer.
[07:28.080 -> 07:31.760] And if you're listening to this and you're thinking well I don't work in elite sport
[07:31.760 -> 07:38.320] why is this relevant? I think having a vulnerable workplace is the very first step to having
[07:38.320 -> 07:43.360] accountability for people to be able to put their hands up and explain to you why things could be
[07:43.360 -> 07:48.840] better, why things aren't working, why people are struggling and it creates a healthier environment. So each
[07:48.840 -> 07:52.600] of us are going to give you one tip on how you can create a vulnerable
[07:52.600 -> 07:57.040] workplace and I would start by just saying that it needs to come from the
[07:57.040 -> 08:01.240] person at the very top. All too often we speak to leaders in businesses who tell
[08:01.240 -> 08:04.360] us that their workplace isn't somewhere that you can be vulnerable and they wish
[08:04.360 -> 08:07.640] it was and immediately Professor Hughes and I say,
[08:07.640 -> 08:10.200] well, you have to be the very first person then
[08:10.200 -> 08:11.300] to be vulnerable.
[08:11.300 -> 08:13.960] Once you get that vulnerability from the leader,
[08:13.960 -> 08:15.280] it creates a safe space
[08:15.280 -> 08:16.700] and it allows the team to be vulnerable.
[08:16.700 -> 08:18.480] So if you're a leader listening to this
[08:18.480 -> 08:20.660] and you want vulnerability in your workplace,
[08:20.660 -> 08:23.420] which trust me is a healthy thing to want to have,
[08:23.420 -> 08:24.820] then you need to show it first.
[08:24.820 -> 08:27.620] And if you're not the leader, and again, you want it or they
[08:27.620 -> 08:31.660] want it, you perhaps need to be the person that explains to them that it
[08:31.660 -> 08:36.500] needs to come from them. Brilliant advice. I'd add that get comfortable using three
[08:36.500 -> 08:40.860] words, I don't know. And the more you can do that when you're confronted with a
[08:40.860 -> 08:44.580] situation and say I don't know, I think then it allows other people to admit
[08:44.580 -> 08:47.440] their own fallibilities and vulnerabilities as well.
[08:47.440 -> 08:50.640] Really important. So you can listen to the full episode and the full conversation with
[08:50.640 -> 08:53.920] Pippa Grange by trawling through the back catalogue of the High Performance
[08:53.920 -> 08:57.720] Podcast and of course you can also find our conversation with Gareth Southgate.
[08:57.720 -> 09:01.720] He spoke to us ahead of the last Euros. It was an amazing conversation. Here's
[09:01.720 -> 09:04.000] what he thinks of the High Performance Podcast.
[09:04.000 -> 09:07.340] I've got to thank you on behalf of, by the way,
[09:07.340 -> 09:10.120] everybody that listens because, you know,
[09:10.120 -> 09:13.440] you played a massive part in getting me through lockdown.
[09:13.440 -> 09:18.440] To be able to listen to the messages you brought,
[09:18.560 -> 09:20.680] and I would think there would be a lot of coaches
[09:20.680 -> 09:23.460] and a lot of people in the public who would feel similarly,
[09:23.460 -> 09:31.560] actually the timing of how everything happened for me to to actually go for a walk for an hour with the dogs and and
[09:31.920 -> 09:33.360] put me
[09:33.360 -> 09:36.920] You know, sometimes I like to just listen to what's going on in the world
[09:36.920 -> 09:42.220] But actually I found through that period it was really powerful for me
[09:42.240 -> 09:46.820] So it's one of the reasons I was really keen to come and speak because it was almost
[09:47.060 -> 09:49.660] Yeah, thank you for for delivering that
[09:52.620 -> 09:57.560] So, there we go, thanks so much for joining us for this bite-sized episode of high performance. Thanks a lot. Professor Hughes
[09:57.600 -> 10:01.880] Thank you. Jake. Look you like it when I use your proper title. No, would you prefer Damien Damien?
[10:02.120 -> 10:05.520] But you've said I always have to refer to you as Professor Hughes. Yeah
[10:07.160 -> 10:09.160] I don't know
[10:09.940 -> 10:12.560] Listen it was a pleasure as always. I've loved it. Damien.
[10:14.080 -> 10:16.160] And I tell you what it comes out on Monday
[10:16.160 -> 10:23.840] But here is a sneak preview of Monday's episode of high performance where we have a World Cup special with three Lions
[10:28.000 -> 10:29.000] We have a World Cup special with three Lions. Riyad Ferdinand, Joe Cole and Peter Crouch. Here's what you can expect.
[10:29.000 -> 10:36.080] I remember coming on at Old Trafford and getting booed by my own fans. It was probably a little
[10:36.080 -> 10:40.200] bit of that between Liverpool and Man United, that kind of rivalry, but that was obviously
[10:40.200 -> 10:46.120] crept into the stands. So my mum and dad and sister are in the crowd and the whole England, the whole stand
[10:46.120 -> 10:48.520] and the whole stadium are booing me
[10:48.520 -> 10:50.520] because of, you know, maybe a little campaign
[10:50.520 -> 10:53.400] sort of against me to not be in England squad.
[10:53.400 -> 10:54.240] Let's be honest, right?
[10:54.240 -> 10:56.520] I'm a 24 year old kid, right?
[10:56.520 -> 10:58.120] I'm getting booed by my own fans
[10:58.120 -> 10:59.280] and I'm thinking about my mum
[10:59.280 -> 11:01.440] as I'm coming on to play for England.
[11:01.440 -> 11:04.240] Remember the feeling that we had around the stadiums
[11:04.240 -> 11:07.720] when we was all going to the games in the Euros, remember the feeling around the
[11:07.720 -> 11:11.640] country what that done, people going off school, businesses closing for their
[11:11.640 -> 11:16.080] moments, like that's because of what that team done. We quickly forget far too
[11:16.080 -> 11:20.440] often. When we get on that plane to leave Qatar with the trophy or without a
[11:20.440 -> 11:27.040] trophy you make sure that you have no regrets, you live it from now until then.
[11:27.840 -> 11:31.280] So when you're 15 years down the line working in media,
[11:31.280 -> 11:33.440] you know, we can all pat you on the back as legends.