Alain de Botton on the joy of being average (E218)

This episode encourages us to explore a deeper understanding of ourselves, our relationships, and why we should be seeking fulfilment not happiness.

Alain de Botton is an author and philosopher, known for co-founding The School of Life in 2008. The School of Life was created to fill a void in our current education systems with the teaching of emotional intelligence. Alain’s work also focuses on love, parenthood, mental health and the meaning of success. During this episode, Jake, Damian and Alain dive deep into each of these subjects, exploring what a life filled with the constant search for knowledge could look like.

Alain shares what we can learn from our mental health struggles and how they can be revealing a deeper truth. This conversation highlights how important it is to lean into uncomfortable emotions to truly understand ourselves. Alain challenges Jake and Damian’s perceptions of what high performance really looks like, debating whether the fight for success actually leads to a good life, and why we should be embracing averageness.

Within this conversation they discuss why we’re obsessed with fame, how to be a better parent, the benefits of a breakdown and how we can improve our relationships.

Find Alain’s new book ‘A Therapeutic Journey’ here: https://uk.bookshop.org/p/books/a-therapeutic-journey-lessons-from-the-school-of-life-alain-de-botton/7388674?ean=9780241642559

Download The High Performance App by clicking the link below and using the code: HPAPP https://www.thehighperformancepodcast.com/app-link

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**Understanding High Performance and Embracing Average:**

* High performance is not about achieving everything, but rather finding your potential and exploiting it.
* The ability to tolerate one's own averageness is a sign of wisdom, and the insistence on always being special can be counterproductive.
* Fame is often driven by a desire for validation and a feeling of invisibility.
* A solid sense of self comes from feeling secure in who you are, even if you're not the center of attention.

**Leaning into Uncomfortable Emotions:**

* Many uncomfortable emotions, such as anxiety and depression, are caused by fighting against our true feelings.
* Allowing ourselves to experience and understand these emotions can lead to personal growth and a sense of peace.
* Being able to tolerate discomfort and uncertainty is a sign of emotional maturity.

**Parenting and the Development of True and False Selves:**

* Children who are allowed to express their true selves develop a stronger sense of self-worth and authenticity.
* Parents who are overly critical or dismissive of their children's emotions may inadvertently create a false self that suppresses the true self.
* The balance between expressing one's true self and adapting to social norms is a lifelong journey.

**The Benefits of a Breakdown:**

* A breakdown can be a sign that you've been ignoring your true self and pushing yourself too hard.
* It can be an opportunity for personal growth and transformation.
* Sometimes, a breakdown is necessary to access deeper truths and achieve a healthier state of mind.

**Conclusion:**

* High performance is not about achieving perfection or being constantly special.
* It's about finding your own version of success and living a life that is fulfilling and authentic to you.
* Embracing your average side and learning to tolerate discomfort are essential for personal growth and happiness.

**Navigating Life's Labyrinth: Embracing Imperfection and Finding Fulfillment**

In this thought-provoking podcast episode, Alain de Botton, an acclaimed philosopher and author, delves into the complexities of human existence, exploring our relentless pursuit of happiness, the significance of embracing imperfection, and the true nature of high performance.

**Key Insights:**

1. **The Illusion of Happiness:**
- We often chase happiness as if it's a tangible goal, but it's more a byproduct of a meaningful life well-lived.
- Fulfillment, on the other hand, stems from understanding and accepting our imperfections, embracing life's challenges, and cultivating meaningful relationships.

2. **The Value of Imperfection:**
- Our flaws and vulnerabilities make us human and relatable.
- Striving for perfection can lead to a cycle of self-criticism and dissatisfaction.
- Accepting our imperfections allows us to be more compassionate towards ourselves and others.

3. **Redefining Success:**
- Success isn't a one-size-fits-all concept.
- It's about finding a path that aligns with our unique talents, values, and aspirations.
- True success involves exploiting our potential to the fullest and making a positive impact on the world.

4. **The Perils of Ambition:**
- Unbridled ambition can lead to a relentless pursuit of external validation and status.
- It can also result in burnout, anxiety, and a sense of emptiness.
- Instead of chasing ambition, we should focus on cultivating purpose and meaning in our lives.

5. **Embracing Averages:**
- Society often glorifies exceptional achievements, creating a sense of inadequacy among those who don't measure up.
- It's important to recognize that being average is not a sign of failure.
- Average people can lead fulfilling lives by focusing on their strengths, nurturing relationships, and contributing to their communities.

6. **The Importance of Self-Awareness:**
- Mental health struggles can provide valuable insights into our inner selves.
- By exploring our emotions, we can uncover deeper truths and gain a better understanding of our motivations and behaviors.
- Embracing our emotional experiences, both positive and negative, leads to personal growth and resilience.

7. **The Art of Parenting:**
- Encouraging children to pursue amazing things can spark their imagination and drive, but it's essential to avoid creating unrealistic expectations.
- Parents should help children develop a sense of self-worth that's not solely based on external achievements.
- Children should be taught that the world is built by humans, not gods, and that they have the power to shape their own lives.

8. **Breaking Free from Societal Pressures:**
- We often try to impress people we don't even know or care about.
- To immunize ourselves against this need for external validation, we must recognize that not everyone will agree with our choices or approve of our actions.
- It's important to focus on impressing ourselves by living authentically and pursuing our own values.

**Conclusion:**

The path to a fulfilling life lies not in the relentless pursuit of happiness or the attainment of perfection. Instead, it involves embracing our imperfections, redefining success on our own terms, and cultivating meaningful relationships. By recognizing the value of imperfection, we can break free from societal pressures, live more authentically, and find true fulfillment.

# Podcast Episode Summary: The Search for Fulfillment

**Alain de Botton, an author and philosopher, was interviewed on the High Performance Podcast. The discussion centered around understanding ourselves, our relationships, and why we should strive for fulfillment instead of happiness.**

- **Happiness vs. Fulfillment:**
- Happiness is fleeting and dependent on external factors, while fulfillment is a more sustainable state of being that comes from within.
- Fulfillment can be found in activities that align with our values and contribute to a meaningful life, even if they don't always bring immediate happiness.

- **The Power of Emotional Literacy:**
- Leaning into and exploring emotions, both positive and negative, can lead to greater self-awareness and personal growth.
- Suppressing or ignoring emotions can lead to problems in relationships and overall well-being.
- Emotional literacy involves developing the ability to identify, understand, and express emotions in a healthy way.

- **The Importance of Patience and Reflection:**
- Personal growth and understanding often take time and patience.
- Taking time to reflect on experiences, both positive and negative, can help us learn and grow from them.
- Patience allows us to avoid impulsive decisions and to make more thoughtful choices.

- **The Role of Mental Breakdowns:**
- Mental breakdowns can be a catalyst for self-discovery and personal growth.
- They can force us to confront hidden truths and to make necessary changes in our lives.
- Mental breakdowns can be an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of ourselves and our needs.

- **The Value of Kindness:**
- Kindness towards oneself and others is essential for a fulfilling life.
- Being kind to ourselves involves accepting our flaws and treating ourselves with compassion.
- Kindness towards others creates positive relationships and fosters a sense of community.

- **The Myth of Perfection:**
- Striving for perfection is an unrealistic and often counterproductive goal.
- Accepting that we are all flawed and imperfect can free us from the pressure to be perfect.
- Embracing our imperfections can lead to greater self-acceptance and fulfillment.

- **The Importance of Choice and Sacrifice:**
- Every choice we make involves sacrifice, as we cannot have everything.
- Regret is a natural part of the human condition and should not be seen as a failure.
- Accepting that choices have consequences can help us make more informed and intentional decisions.

**Overall, the podcast episode emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, emotional literacy, and the pursuit of fulfillment over happiness. It challenges the idea of perfection and encourages individuals to embrace their imperfections and to make choices that align with their values and contribute to a meaningful life.**

**Navigating the Complexities of Life: A Journey of Self-Discovery and Fulfillment**

In this episode, Alain de Botton, a renowned author and philosopher, joins Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes for a thought-provoking conversation that delves into the depths of human existence, relationships, and the pursuit of fulfillment.

**Embracing Uncomfortable Emotions for Deeper Understanding**

Alain emphasizes the significance of acknowledging and embracing uncomfortable emotions, viewing them as opportunities for self-discovery and growth. He challenges the societal tendency to suppress or ignore these emotions, arguing that they often hold valuable insights into our true selves.

**Redefining Success and High Performance**

The discussion challenges conventional notions of success and high performance, questioning whether the relentless pursuit of these ideals truly leads to a fulfilling life. Alain advocates for embracing averageness, finding joy in the ordinary, and prioritizing personal growth and well-being over external validation.

**The Obsession with Fame and Its Impact on Relationships**

The episode explores the pervasive obsession with fame and its detrimental effects on relationships. Alain argues that the pursuit of fame often leads to a distorted sense of self, making it challenging to form genuine connections with others. He emphasizes the importance of cultivating meaningful relationships built on authenticity and shared experiences.

**Parenting and the Art of Letting Go**

Alain shares his insights on parenting, highlighting the importance of allowing children to make mistakes and learn from their experiences. He encourages parents to embrace the role of guides rather than controllers, fostering a supportive environment that nurtures independence and resilience.

**The Benefits of a Breakdown and the Path to Recovery**

Alain discusses the transformative potential of breakdowns, viewing them as opportunities for profound personal growth. He emphasizes the importance of seeking professional help during difficult times and embracing the journey of recovery as a chance to gain a deeper understanding of oneself and the world around us.

**Conclusion: Fulfillment Through Self-Awareness and Connection**

The episode concludes with a powerful message about the importance of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and the pursuit of fulfillment rather than happiness. Alain encourages listeners to embark on a journey of self-discovery, embrace their vulnerabilities, and cultivate meaningful relationships to live a life of purpose and contentment.

[00:00.000 -> 00:05.080] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the
[00:05.080 -> 00:09.920] minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside
[00:09.920 -> 00:15.080] Professor Damian Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes, and struggles of our guests,
[00:15.080 -> 00:21.960] allowing us all to explore, be challenged, and to grow. Here's what's coming up.
[00:21.960 -> 00:28.920] The ability to tolerate one's own averageness is the beginning of a certain sort of wisdom
[00:28.920 -> 00:37.000] and the insistence always on specialness is a kind of malignant situation.
[00:37.000 -> 00:46.240] Love, intra-human love, is as important to our development as vitamins are to our healthy bodily development. And shortfalls
[00:46.240 -> 00:55.280] of love lead to appalling deformations of character that can have lifelong consequences.
[00:55.280 -> 00:59.920] The trick of being happy is not to achieve anything and everything, it's to achieve what
[00:59.920 -> 01:06.580] you feel you're capable of. I think that is what leads ultimately to happiness. The
[01:06.580 -> 01:12.000] trick is not to have a problem-free life, it's to have a life where your problems contribute
[01:12.000 -> 01:13.560] to something interesting.
[01:13.560 -> 01:19.320] I am so excited to bring Alain de Botton into the conversation when it comes to high performance.
[01:19.320 -> 01:22.780] I still feel that some people get high performance wrong. They think we're saying you have to
[01:22.780 -> 01:26.280] achieve incredible things. That's not what this podcast is about.
[01:26.280 -> 01:28.840] This podcast is about making people realize
[01:28.840 -> 01:31.200] that actually it's about them finding their own version
[01:31.200 -> 01:32.400] of high performance.
[01:32.400 -> 01:36.200] And Alan de Botton published Essays in Love in 1993.
[01:36.200 -> 01:37.400] It sold millions.
[01:37.400 -> 01:40.400] He's gone on to write some other incredible books.
[01:40.400 -> 01:43.240] And actually, his whole thinking process
[01:43.240 -> 01:45.880] is that being average is okay.
[01:45.880 -> 01:49.220] That the world is set up to trick us into thinking that we have to achieve incredible
[01:49.220 -> 01:51.240] things to be validated.
[01:51.240 -> 01:55.520] And actually all that leaves is us constantly chasing a moment that doesn't actually bring
[01:55.520 -> 01:57.380] us any more happiness.
[01:57.380 -> 02:00.140] If anything, it's a toxic way to live.
[02:00.140 -> 02:04.040] So I know there's so many of you listen to our podcast because you want to go on to achieve
[02:04.040 -> 02:09.620] incredible things. I also know so many of you listen to this podcast because you want to go on to achieve incredible things I also know so many of you listen to this podcast and it may be in a place where you're struggling at the moment
[02:09.620 -> 02:13.000] This is the episode for you. This is such a powerful conversation
[02:13.560 -> 02:20.400] Allah is an incredible author an amazing thinker a super bright guy and I'd love to know what you make of this episode
[02:20.480 -> 02:25.440] Let's get to it. Then as we Alain de Botton to the High Performance podcast.
[02:28.400 -> 02:32.560] Just a quick reminder that if you download the High Performance app from the App Store
[02:32.560 -> 02:38.160] then you can actually hear an extended clip with Alain de Botton talking to myself and Damien
[02:38.160 -> 02:42.000] about parenting. Just go to the App Store, download the High Performance app
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[04:53.280 -> 05:03.480] Additional taxes, fees and restrictions
[04:55.400 -> 05:04.840] apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Alan,
[05:03.480 -> 05:06.800] thank you very much for joining us. Thank
[05:04.840 -> 05:05.680] you, thank you for much for joining us. Thank you.
[05:05.680 -> 05:06.680] Thank you for having me.
[05:06.680 -> 05:07.680] What is high performance?
[05:07.680 -> 05:12.500] I quite like that phrase, becoming the best version of yourself, you know, which we hear
[05:12.500 -> 05:14.500] a lot, but what does it really mean?
[05:14.500 -> 05:19.560] I think we're always aware that there are days, periods of our lives, which kind of
[05:19.560 -> 05:22.600] honor our potential more than others.
[05:22.600 -> 05:30.400] And I think, you know, the trick of being happy is not to achieve anything and everything. It's to achieve what you feel you're capable of. I
[05:30.400 -> 05:37.160] think that is what leads ultimately to happiness. I think all of us are aware of a sort of latent
[05:37.160 -> 05:43.200] potential in us, but especially at the beginning of finishing school, maybe going on to higher
[05:43.200 -> 05:45.040] education, you feel that
[05:45.040 -> 05:50.000] potential in a very diffuse form. You sense there's something in you, but exactly what
[05:50.000 -> 05:55.840] it is can take such a long time to work out. And I think a life where you've really exploited
[05:55.840 -> 06:02.560] your own potential performance is one where you've located that sort of best self and
[06:02.560 -> 06:05.160] you've put it to work. And I think that's going to be happiness
[06:05.160 -> 06:10.940] for you. It's going to be very, very individual, which is why all definitions of success, the
[06:10.940 -> 06:15.340] aim for a one-size-fits-all, are always going to be, you know, very wonky. And, you know,
[06:15.340 -> 06:21.060] we know certain things like a certain amount of money versus time, that money-time equation
[06:21.060 -> 06:27.920] is going to fit different people. We know that sort of thing. But there are also other things. You know, how much nature do you need around you? How many friends do
[06:27.920 -> 06:33.100] you need around you? How much intellectual stimulation do you need? Such individual answers
[06:33.100 -> 06:40.000] and finding those sort of inner keys to your musical score is going to be absolutely essential.
[06:40.000 -> 06:43.080] Matthew 15 So what advice would you give people then
[06:43.080 -> 06:45.500] for how they can find the answers to that
[06:45.500 -> 06:51.840] question because there will be people listening to this to think, I've never even in my life
[06:51.840 -> 06:53.320] considered what am I capable of.
[06:53.320 -> 06:57.600] I've kind of gone along with the status quo, I've perhaps been derailed by the success
[06:57.600 -> 07:02.920] of other people, I've taken on the sort of societal norms of a big house and a, you know,
[07:02.920 -> 07:06.360] a good salary and 2.4 children and two holidays a
[07:06.360 -> 07:09.640] year but I don't really know what I'm capable of.
[07:09.640 -> 07:12.320] Matthew Feeney Well I think first of all it's really normal
[07:12.320 -> 07:16.480] to be puzzled by the question. I think sometimes people think I don't know what I really want
[07:16.480 -> 07:20.460] to do therefore there isn't anything that I really want to do. I think that's the wrong
[07:20.460 -> 07:24.920] way around. Not knowing is very very normal. There are very few people who say you know
[07:24.920 -> 07:28.560] I want to be a brain surgeon and that's it. I'm just going to go for it. I knew when I was 12
[07:28.560 -> 07:33.920] and now I'm 93. It was absolutely right for me. Very few of us are like that. I sometimes think
[07:33.920 -> 07:38.480] of it like passing a metal detector over the ground. Every now and then, there's a sort of
[07:38.480 -> 07:49.440] beep at certain moments when you're coming across a future version of yourself. I sometimes think a really good guide to what you might be doing and who you should be is
[07:49.440 -> 07:54.520] envy. Every time that you feel envious of someone or of a situation, someone tells you
[07:54.520 -> 08:01.200] what they're doing and you feel, hmm, I kind of hate them. And if you use that hatred,
[08:01.200 -> 08:05.200] it's often a sign that there's something that they're doing that you're capable
[08:05.200 -> 08:09.120] of. That's what you've been slightly triggered by because it's, you know, you're recognizing
[08:09.120 -> 08:14.320] a kind of future potential. So using envy is, I think, a really useful step. And then
[08:14.320 -> 08:19.680] just slowly assembling the jigsaw puzzle. Do various exercises like, you know, imagining
[08:19.680 -> 08:30.240] 12 different scenarios of your future. Just going, you know, let's try and grade them on a scale of one to ten. You know, in ten years' time, I am a... How does that feel?
[08:30.240 -> 08:33.880] In ten years' time, you know, it's a Tuesday morning and I'm off to do... How does that
[08:33.880 -> 08:37.520] feel? Sometimes our minds are a little bit obtuse. I mean, you'd think they'd work that
[08:37.520 -> 08:42.440] bit out, but no, we sometimes have to go through an almost childishly simple thought exercise
[08:42.440 -> 08:45.800] to try and project ourselves forward and see how we might feel.
[08:45.800 -> 08:53.680] I love that use of the word envy. I think reading your work, Alan, I think you have
[08:53.680 -> 08:59.140] access to like a real emotional literacy that you're able to take words that in our society
[08:59.140 -> 09:03.560] we might have a pejorative view that envy is a bad thing and you're suggesting it's
[09:03.560 -> 09:07.160] a good one. Would you just expand on that for us a little bit more?
[09:07.160 -> 09:09.920] RL Well I think you know sometimes we're a bit
[09:09.920 -> 09:16.820] too addicted to a positive image of ourselves and we take fright too easily at things that
[09:16.820 -> 09:22.120] would suggest that we're a bit more complicated, we're maybe not so normal, we might be, in
[09:22.120 -> 09:26.440] inverted commas, bad and we take fright so quickly that we cut ourselves off from
[09:26.440 -> 09:29.120] some of our richer, more complicated possibilities.
[09:29.120 -> 09:35.240] You know, sometimes I think about this in relation to anger. Many of us get upset very
[09:35.240 -> 09:41.560] often by people close to us, by little things that they do, and that hurt and anger can
[09:41.560 -> 09:45.520] accumulate. And if we don't have a safe way to discuss it, to discharge
[09:45.520 -> 09:52.400] it, what can happen is that we go numb. We maybe get weighed down by a diffuse but unanalyzable
[09:52.400 -> 09:57.040] sense of despair, or we flinch when they come close to us. We don't want them near us.
[09:57.600 -> 10:01.440] The real reason is that there's something we need to get off our chest. But because
[10:01.440 -> 10:06.120] we're a little bit too rigidly keen on thinking of ourselves
[10:06.120 -> 10:11.120] as good people, who are just very loving and kind and upbeat, we don't allow ourselves
[10:11.120 -> 10:15.280] to go to some of these darker places. And then the problems start to accumulate. So
[10:15.280 -> 10:20.460] I sometimes think of taking an emotion like anxiety. I think anxiety is often a worry
[10:20.460 -> 10:30.880] that doesn't know itself. Now, why doesn't it know itself? Often because the anxiety is contrary to something that we want to believe to be true about ourselves. So we don't want
[10:30.880 -> 10:35.040] to feel alarmed about something because it has no place in our sort of image of ourselves
[10:35.040 -> 10:43.120] or of the world. Similarly, depression is often a sadness that we have no space for
[10:43.120 -> 10:46.680] within our conception of what's normal for us. So, you know, let's
[10:46.680 -> 10:52.680] imagine someone left us five years ago. We're a normal person, why would we still be upset
[10:52.680 -> 10:56.360] about that? You know, that's not possible. Actually, you know, the mind is a strange
[10:56.360 -> 11:01.860] and complex organ. Maybe we are. So allowing room for some of these more unusual ways in
[11:01.860 -> 11:05.520] which our minds work can actually leave us feeling lighter in ourselves.
[11:05.520 -> 11:11.360] Stuart Let's just go a bit deeper on that. Are you saying that someone with anxiety,
[11:12.000 -> 11:14.960] part of the anxiety is caused by fighting the feeling?
[11:14.960 -> 11:18.160] Richard 100% I mean this is, you know, we are,
[11:18.160 -> 11:26.580] the old expression, our own worst enemies in that we're fighting civil wars. The other useful expression is being at peace
[11:26.580 -> 11:33.100] with oneself. We may be at war with others, with life, with situations, but so long as
[11:33.100 -> 11:36.980] we're not at war with ourselves, that's already a big burden off us. And often we
[11:36.980 -> 11:44.400] are fighting these wars. I mean, take somebody who feels that they need to adhere to a certain
[11:44.400 -> 11:46.880] religious code, but but another level is something
[11:46.880 -> 11:50.480] in that code that's brushing up against something pretty substantial in their nature, constant,
[11:50.480 -> 11:57.040] there will be a constant unhelpful war. So yes, I think a lot of feelings that cause
[11:57.040 -> 12:04.640] us most trouble are those where there is a kind of refusal to accept that we might be
[12:04.640 -> 12:06.080] a certain thing or a certain
[12:06.080 -> 12:07.080] way.
[12:07.080 -> 12:11.280] And your willingness to sort of lean into some of these more uncomfortable emotions
[12:11.280 -> 12:19.760] I think is really interesting. So take somebody feeling that they're ordinary and I love that
[12:19.760 -> 12:24.580] you often say well that's a good thing rather than our society sets us up to believe that
[12:24.580 -> 12:28.280] being ordinary is something is abhorrent or we should be afraid of
[12:28.280 -> 12:33.960] it or rail against it. Would you explain why being ordinary or settling or
[12:33.960 -> 12:40.000] compromising in a situation these often seem like quite bland or anodyne
[12:40.000 -> 12:50.440] emotions but actually are really important to high performance. I think we've got a really conflicted vision of the good life in our societies
[12:50.440 -> 12:53.840] and I think particularly sort of Anglo-American societies.
[12:53.840 -> 12:58.720] On the one hand, we're democracies and so we believe in the kind of the legitimacy of every single voice,
[12:58.720 -> 13:00.000] everyone needs to be counted.
[13:00.000 -> 13:05.120] These are also societies with a predominantly original Christian background and you know
[13:05.120 -> 13:10.560] Christianity very much emphasizes the dignity of every life and every human.
[13:10.560 -> 13:16.160] But at the same time, there are societies that are pretty aggressively hierarchical
[13:16.160 -> 13:21.240] where there's a sort of sense that you know the winner should take if not all a substantial
[13:21.240 -> 13:27.560] part and that mediocrity is associated with being like everyone else.
[13:27.560 -> 13:32.560] I mean, if you said to a young person nowadays in the United States, United Kingdom, and
[13:32.560 -> 13:36.880] say, you know, I'm aiming for a life where I'm in many ways just like everybody else,
[13:36.880 -> 13:44.280] that would be seen as dispiriting, depressing. And, you know, we think very well of drama,
[13:44.280 -> 13:45.440] drama and melodrama. And, you know, many great very well of drama, drama and melodrama.
[13:45.440 -> 13:51.560] And you know, many great things are achievable perhaps only with a certain level of heightened
[13:51.560 -> 13:54.920] activity and stress and all the rest of it.
[13:54.920 -> 14:02.620] But I think the ability to tolerate one's own averageness in many fields is the beginning
[14:02.620 -> 14:07.200] of a certain sort of wisdom and the insistence always on
[14:07.200 -> 14:15.760] specialness is a kind of malignant situation. At School of Life, we like a phrase that if
[14:15.760 -> 14:21.520] you've done well as a parent, your child should have no interest in being famous. Nowadays,
[14:21.520 -> 14:26.560] a lot of people want to be famous. It's a very common aspiration.
[14:26.560 -> 14:33.120] That's a sign that something is failing us in our understanding of an ordinary existence.
[14:33.120 -> 14:35.240] Toby Curran I'd say more about that.
[14:35.240 -> 14:36.240] That's…
[14:36.240 -> 14:40.440] Richard Dawkins I believe that an exaggerated desire for
[14:40.440 -> 14:46.820] fame, for distinction, is often trying to compensate for a feeling of invisibility.
[14:46.820 -> 14:52.760] And the more invisible someone feels, the more they feel that they must be up on a stage
[14:52.760 -> 14:57.580] of some sort or another in a spotlight. And, you know, scratch below the desire for fame.
[14:57.580 -> 15:01.360] What is it for? What's it really about? And here I'm really talking about the desire for
[15:01.360 -> 15:09.040] fame rather than desire for distinction on the basis of something you're doing. It's really the desire that other people admire you. Strangers, the
[15:09.040 -> 15:17.120] people who don't know you think well of you. And I think it often hides a sad story of some form of
[15:18.400 -> 15:24.240] invisibility or injury. And I think that, you know, the more we create a society in which,
[15:24.240 -> 15:26.280] you know, you don't really exist until you've
[15:26.280 -> 15:29.560] achieved distinction, it becomes a kind of arms race, then you have to achieve distinction
[15:29.560 -> 15:32.760] because there is no way of getting that distinction.
[15:32.760 -> 15:35.200] What's the first question everybody gets asked in the modern world?
[15:35.200 -> 15:37.120] What do you do for a living?
[15:37.120 -> 15:42.320] And we work, of course we work for money, but we also work in order to have an answer
[15:42.320 -> 15:52.640] to that question which will deliver us that other thing we so want which is a sense of being seen and of being respected. It's such a powerful
[15:52.640 -> 15:57.840] human driver. You know, we speak of people feeling solid inside or not solid. What does that really
[15:57.840 -> 16:07.240] mean? I think that a child who's had an extremely intense period of having felt at the center of the world
[16:07.240 -> 16:11.320] grows up into someone who can tolerate not being at the center of the world. I think
[16:11.320 -> 16:17.540] sometimes in our story of parenting, we exaggerate the dangers of giving children the limelight
[16:17.540 -> 16:21.560] when very little. I mean, I'm talking, you know, one year old. There's a sort of feeling
[16:21.560 -> 16:27.840] like, oh, no, that kid's getting spoiled. You know, they've been on the earth all of 12 months and they are spoiled.
[16:27.840 -> 16:30.080] I don't see such a danger there.
[16:30.080 -> 16:36.400] I see a much greater danger in under-privileging, under-spoiling, if you like, someone in the
[16:36.400 -> 16:41.200] very early years, which then sets up a dynamic that they have to be, you know, aggressively
[16:41.200 -> 16:42.200] on stage thereafter.
[16:42.200 -> 16:46.000] Matthew Feeney Can I just delve a bit deeper then?
[16:46.000 -> 16:49.000] From a purely personal perspective?
[16:49.000 -> 16:52.000] Because it's interesting you say this because we have a son who
[16:52.000 -> 16:56.000] would happily not walk on a stage his entire life
[16:56.000 -> 17:00.000] and is more than content just to be chilling out and doing his own thing.
[17:00.000 -> 17:04.000] And then we have a daughter who is wanting to dance, act, sing, perform,
[17:04.000 -> 17:06.000] record, be seen,
[17:06.000 -> 17:10.740] take selfies, all the other things that as you slowly edge towards your teenage years
[17:10.740 -> 17:13.740] start to reveal themselves.
[17:13.740 -> 17:17.240] Yet she's also the one of the two that when we praise our son, she will go, you never
[17:17.240 -> 17:19.360] say that to me, although we do.
[17:19.360 -> 17:22.120] Or said you've done well, what have I done well?
[17:22.120 -> 17:29.960] Whereas if we say, that's amazing, her brother would never go, well, am I amazing as well? And I've never linked the two things. Do you
[17:29.960 -> 17:30.960] think maybe they are linked?
[17:30.960 -> 17:33.160] Matthew Feeney Yes, I mean, look, you know, families are
[17:33.160 -> 17:38.240] such complicated things, I couldn't possibly, you know, wade in and there may be really
[17:38.240 -> 17:44.280] subtle things about gender and, you know, within the family dynamic, mother, father,
[17:44.280 -> 17:45.920] who, you know you where does the attention
[17:45.920 -> 17:46.920] go
[17:46.920 -> 17:51.280] it goes to her mostly goes to Florence more than but the reason why I think this is really
[17:51.280 -> 17:55.140] interesting actually is because I think there'll be a lot of people listening to this who can
[17:55.140 -> 18:04.820] relate to a child who seems so confident in some ways and other people go what a confident
[18:04.820 -> 18:06.080] young lady and actually you
[18:06.080 -> 18:10.480] know the most confident child in our house is the one that is never pushing themselves
[18:10.480 -> 18:11.480] to the front.
[18:11.480 -> 18:14.660] Matthew Feeney That's right. I think the confidence to be
[18:14.660 -> 18:18.680] as you put it chilled out and be in your room doing your own thing and just not caring.
[18:18.680 -> 18:28.320] I mean that is if we're talking about success and freedom that's the gold dust, you know, the ability to not care so much. Of
[18:28.320 -> 18:33.760] course, you know, everybody wants the fine things of life, but to sort of have a relaxed attitude
[18:33.760 -> 18:39.200] to that, that is a sign that emotionally you've hit the jackpot. It gives you such freedom,
[18:39.200 -> 18:45.720] such latitude. It means you don't need everyone to like you. It means you're not a people pleaser. You
[18:45.720 -> 18:52.680] know, imagine the ability to encounter people and while not being necessarily rude to them
[18:52.680 -> 18:58.120] and why, you know, that's its own problem, aggression, but simply be slightly neutral.
[18:58.120 -> 19:03.400] They might like me, they might not like me. I don't need them to like me. And if there
[19:03.400 -> 19:05.880] were a tricky situation where, you know, there's
[19:05.880 -> 19:11.560] an issue of like, do I tell them the truth or do I safeguard their affection by not telling
[19:11.560 -> 19:14.920] them the truth, you have that ability to say, you know what, I'm just going to say it the
[19:14.920 -> 19:20.840] way it is. Again, this is a sign of tremendous, you know, if we're talking about performance,
[19:20.840 -> 19:26.120] high performance, success, happiness, this is where you're really hitting something extremely special.
[19:27.440 -> 19:33.800] So can you give us a bit of a masterclass based on your school of life work and your numerous teachings?
[19:34.160 -> 19:45.240] I think there's something really special about your ability to lean into those uncomfortable emotions and create a space where you can scratch a bit deeper and say, what is this telling us?
[19:45.240 -> 19:46.800] What is missing here?
[19:46.800 -> 19:51.320] Or what is it a real insight into what really needs?
[19:51.320 -> 19:52.980] I can imagine there's a lot of people listening
[19:52.980 -> 19:56.220] to this Alan that are interested about how do they do it?
[19:56.220 -> 19:59.400] So they might have children, they might have partners,
[19:59.400 -> 20:01.360] it might even be for themselves,
[20:01.360 -> 20:03.960] where they have this uncomfortable emotion,
[20:03.960 -> 20:05.840] but they want to explore it. Can you
[20:05.840 -> 20:08.720] tell us how you go about doing that?
[20:08.720 -> 20:13.120] Tom Clougherty Look, I think the way the human mind is,
[20:13.120 -> 20:18.880] we're not obvious to ourselves. It takes quite a while for us to understand truly what we're
[20:18.880 -> 20:25.680] feeling and then let alone expressing that to other people. So it's a sort of life's journey to
[20:25.680 -> 20:31.280] be able to know oneself and then communicate oneself properly to other people. What are
[20:31.280 -> 20:37.840] the blocks to knowing oneself? Well, a lot of it is, as we talked about earlier, an anxiety
[20:37.840 -> 20:42.560] about what you'll discover. You know those moods when you don't want to be alone? I think
[20:42.560 -> 20:45.240] they're always very telling. You know, it moves me, we just think,
[20:45.240 -> 20:47.120] I'm calling somebody up, if I'm really honest,
[20:47.120 -> 20:49.640] I don't really wanna call them up.
[20:49.640 -> 20:51.800] I just don't wanna be alone with myself.
[20:51.800 -> 20:54.000] That's often a sign that something is struggling
[20:54.000 -> 20:55.440] to break through into consciousness
[20:55.440 -> 20:57.560] that is quite disturbing.
[20:57.560 -> 21:00.480] You know, imagine those moods when you go to sleep
[21:00.480 -> 21:03.480] but you wake up at 3 a.m. and something's bugging you
[21:03.480 -> 21:05.720] but you don't know what. I often
[21:05.720 -> 21:10.360] think that insomnia is a kind of revenge for all those thoughts that you refuse to have
[21:10.360 -> 21:16.740] in the day that are coming back to bite you. And you know, as I'm saying, a lot about who
[21:16.740 -> 21:22.220] we are doesn't fit our kind of mental models. There's a wonderful psychoanalyst called Donald
[21:22.220 -> 21:31.520] Winnicott who came up with this theory of the true self and the false self. And he argued that in proper healthy development, a child is
[21:31.520 -> 21:39.600] able to reveal and know their true self before they have to grow and sort of nurture a false
[21:39.600 -> 21:49.900] self. He also thinks that you need both. You need both a true self and a false self. Now, a true self is going to include some difficult material. If you let a child express their
[21:49.900 -> 21:53.440] true self, they'll say things like, I hate granny, I absolutely hate granny, or that
[21:53.440 -> 21:58.720] person's fat, or why has that person got no teeth, or I hate school, or daddy's an idiot,
[21:58.720 -> 22:03.560] or whatever. These are going to be part of what the expression of a true self will be.
[22:03.560 -> 22:05.200] And sometimes, in the parenting
[22:05.200 -> 22:10.040] role, you can think, oh my goodness, I'm bringing up a savage or a monster. I can't allow these
[22:10.040 -> 22:16.400] feelings. I can't possibly reward the expression of this sort of emotions. And you shut that
[22:16.400 -> 22:21.480] down. You basically say, if you show me this side of yourself, I will not accept you. And
[22:21.480 -> 22:25.880] this message can be delivered a bit too early. Particularly, you know, parents
[22:25.880 -> 22:28.920] have so much going on. I mean, I don't want to blame parents. I've been a parent. I've
[22:28.920 -> 22:32.520] been on the receiving end of parents. You know, it's complicated stuff. But if a parent,
[22:32.520 -> 22:39.440] for example, is struggling with depression, they can't deal with a child's despair. So
[22:39.440 -> 22:44.560] they might feel, you know, if there's any signs of despair and negativity in the child,
[22:44.560 -> 22:48.720] and then the child might feel the need to be very upbeat. You get that, you know, I'm sure
[22:48.720 -> 22:54.360] we all know people who can't be sad. They're aggressively upbeat. They're like, how are
[22:54.360 -> 22:58.520] you? You know, there's manic energy. And I think mania is an interesting word. It's
[22:58.520 -> 23:02.560] when you're running, running, running from something, from feelings, true feelings that
[23:02.560 -> 23:06.120] you can't bear to face. And that often
[23:06.120 -> 23:10.520] does have a story about how the true self has been sort of locked out. And then, you
[23:10.520 -> 23:14.880] know, you grow a false self, which has got to be whatever it is, very strong, very upbeat,
[23:14.880 -> 23:18.520] or indeed very weak. I mean, you get these fascinating things where children have to
[23:18.520 -> 23:23.560] fail because their success is a threat to somebody in the surrounding environment. Fascinating
[23:23.560 -> 23:29.560] kind of possibilities where, you know, often it's a father can be a mother too. You know, in order to protect
[23:29.560 -> 23:33.580] their own position, they need the child not to do that well. And then surprise, surprise,
[23:33.580 -> 23:37.040] the child keeps taking early retirement from things because they've been presented with
[23:37.040 -> 23:41.980] an unconscious choice between either you succeed and you lose love or you know, you fail and
[23:41.980 -> 23:45.280] you can still be in the family circle. So all these very subtle messages
[23:45.280 -> 23:49.840] are kind of passed down. So looking at your own life through the true self, false self
[23:49.840 -> 23:56.080] model, and almost saying, you know, how much of my truth was allowed out and how much did
[23:56.080 -> 24:02.480] I have to become somebody else in order to be loved and tolerated? Now, of course, in
[24:02.480 -> 24:08.840] adult life, we always have to show a false self at points, at points, And, you know, one would be a very disturbed person if one couldn't.
[24:08.840 -> 24:10.600] Toby Curry I give as an example of that.
[24:10.600 -> 24:13.940] Richard Duffield I mean, look, I think there's two extremes
[24:13.940 -> 24:19.360] on this. The people pleaser and the manic rebel. So the manic rebel, we've met them
[24:19.360 -> 24:23.740] all, they're about to sit their GCSEs and they decide that that's the time to tell the
[24:23.740 -> 24:29.680] teacher what you really think about them. And it's in the exam that you're about to sit their GCSEs and they decide that that's the time to tell the teacher what you really think about them. And it's in the exam that you're going to have to write. It's in your
[24:29.680 -> 24:35.600] English exam that you're really going to tell the examiners what you think about this book
[24:35.600 -> 24:40.800] or whatever. And you can't stop yourself. And then later on, when your boss is there and it's
[24:40.800 -> 24:45.520] your first job, again, the manic rebel thinks, I've got to have to tell
[24:45.520 -> 24:48.720] the boss, the boss is an idiot and they're going to have to know right now. And then
[24:48.720 -> 24:52.660] you know, they get fired and surprise, surprise. So this person keeps tripping themselves up.
[24:52.660 -> 24:57.640] What's going on there? It's almost as though their sense of integrity is so fragile. They
[24:57.640 -> 25:04.880] think unless I'm constantly putting up a battle for my true self, I'm going to be a compromised
[25:04.880 -> 25:06.120] human being. So therefore
[25:06.120 -> 25:11.600] I've got to burn all bridges and generally make a big fuss all the time. Otherwise, I
[25:11.600 -> 25:16.400] won't be real anymore. And that comes at a huge cost for somebody. But then at the other
[25:16.400 -> 25:19.040] end of the spectrum, you've got the manic people pleaser. And they've got a problem
[25:19.040 -> 25:24.280] too because you ask them how they are and they're always fine. And in a relationship,
[25:24.280 -> 25:27.800] how are they? They're absolutely fine until they no longer are.
[25:27.800 -> 25:30.440] And you know, it goes on and on until maybe they have a breakdown.
[25:30.440 -> 25:35.640] A breakdown can often be a sign that you've not been bending very much to the truth inside
[25:35.640 -> 25:36.640] you.
[25:36.640 -> 25:43.600] And the only way of getting to that truth, that true self, is through an extreme breakage.
[25:43.600 -> 25:47.840] And you know, that's an un's a very difficult psychological possibility as well
[25:47.840 -> 25:54.120] that sort of, you know, the truth can't come out without a crisis. Sometimes a crisis is
[25:54.120 -> 25:58.160] a good thing psychologically and there are some people who can only start to get well
[25:58.160 -> 25:59.160] after they've broken down.
[25:59.160 -> 26:01.040] Toby Say more about it because again that's how
[26:01.040 -> 26:05.880] society says a crisis is something to be avoided and that's an intriguing
[26:05.880 -> 26:07.480] response to say it's a good thing.
[26:07.480 -> 26:13.120] Matthew – Well it's a good thing because the alternative might be to keep going at
[26:13.120 -> 26:20.440] too high a price. You know I think our bodies for example are fascinating instruments of
[26:20.440 -> 26:26.760] honesty sometimes. I just think that the mind needs to get certain truths out and
[26:26.760 -> 26:30.760] it will knock at our conscious door and say, you know, please I'm a little bit unhappy
[26:30.760 -> 26:35.760] in this relationship, in this work, with the way I'm living, with my friendship group,
[26:35.760 -> 26:40.080] whatever it is. And either the conscious mind listens at which point the symptom abates
[26:40.080 -> 26:44.360] or it doesn't listen, it's too difficult, there's some kind of conflict around that.
[26:44.360 -> 26:47.500] And then the symptom has to go somewhere else and one of the areas it can go is the lower
[26:47.500 -> 26:54.240] back and the shoulders and maybe other parts of the body which are places that if you like
[26:54.240 -> 27:00.040] sort of there are a kind of bodily conscience where if something hasn't found a way of expressing
[27:00.040 -> 27:05.520] itself, you'll be doubled up in pain and unable to cross the room because you're not listening
[27:05.520 -> 27:13.200] to a signal from within. So sometimes our symptoms, and they could include, you know,
[27:13.200 -> 27:19.000] the inability to get out of bed, you know, sometimes moods and situations where people
[27:19.000 -> 27:24.680] will find themselves moving from a so-called high-performance life where they're very busy
[27:24.680 -> 27:25.840] doing all sorts of things,
[27:25.840 -> 27:28.640] and then suddenly they can't get out of bed or they can't even speak.
[27:28.640 -> 27:30.640] You know, they might not be able to feed themselves suddenly.
[27:30.640 -> 27:33.600] I mean, you get very extreme breakdowns,
[27:33.600 -> 27:37.120] where the basics of life kind of cease functioning.
[27:37.120 -> 27:39.120] And I think those are interesting moments,
[27:39.120 -> 27:43.760] because they're a search for health via the medium of illness.
[27:43.760 -> 27:49.080] And I think that in our society, which likes to give people a pill and then send them right back out again
[27:49.080 -> 27:52.200] without exploring what might have made the meal in the first place,
[27:52.200 -> 27:56.320] we often miss the opportunities that are afforded to us
[27:56.320 -> 28:02.840] through a proper deep reading of our symptoms, which holds so many clues, I think.
[28:02.840 -> 28:07.400] There's a question that keeps spinning around in my head relating to parenthood and children.
[28:07.400 -> 28:11.720] I just need to know whether I should be saying to my children, you can do amazing things
[28:11.720 -> 28:16.480] with your life because my fear if I don't tell them that they can be amazing, I might
[28:16.480 -> 28:20.280] remove that spark that could give them this incredible life.
[28:20.280 -> 28:27.240] I'm fearful, if you like, of saying to my children, hey, just be average, just aim for the status
[28:27.240 -> 28:28.240] quo.
[28:28.240 -> 28:33.640] Look, I think we have to unpack the word amazing, you know, what that really means.
[28:33.640 -> 28:39.000] Ultimately, an amazing life is going to be relative to the individual you're talking
[28:39.000 -> 28:42.160] to and, you know, we began with this.
[28:42.160 -> 28:47.520] It's a good life is means properly exploiting the potential of
[28:47.520 -> 28:51.840] every human who we happen to be addressing. And that potential is going to be very different.
[28:51.840 -> 28:55.280] So there isn't a one-size-fits-all. And the problem with words like, you know, if you
[28:55.280 -> 28:57.960] went down the street and the microphone said, you know, what's an amazing life, you'd
[28:57.960 -> 29:01.480] immediately get a fairly standard answer. You'd have, you know, money would be high
[29:01.480 -> 29:09.840] there, there could be certain renown, there could be, you know, a penthouse apartment, etc., etc. So, and that will be fine for some people,
[29:09.840 -> 29:16.400] but actually not attuned to what others want. So, yes, life has lots of potential, you want to say
[29:16.400 -> 29:23.920] to children. But let's be very individual about what we mean with words like success,
[29:23.920 -> 29:25.680] because no one is a success at
[29:25.680 -> 29:30.480] everything. No one is amazing at everything. Every success involves a failure in another area
[29:30.480 -> 29:38.160] because not all things are compatible. So you really have to cut a very personal path
[29:38.160 -> 29:43.440] through these choices. So should they still aim to be ambitious? Should they still want to be
[29:46.040 -> 29:47.040] aim to be ambitious? Should they still want to be the best of the best at their chosen thing?
[29:47.040 -> 29:49.840] Matthew Feeney I think they have to get a powerful sense
[29:49.840 -> 29:55.160] that the world is made by human beings, not by gods. This could sound a bit odd because
[29:55.160 -> 29:59.240] you might think, well, no one thinks the world's made by gods. But I think we sometimes – it's
[29:59.240 -> 30:03.400] a very natural childlike position. When you first show up at school, you're tiny, you're
[30:03.400 -> 30:09.440] the size of a small chair, and the teacher is a giant, really. And it seems like they control the
[30:09.440 -> 30:12.080] whole of the world and they tell you this and that, and you've got to learn this and
[30:12.080 -> 30:17.400] you've got to do that. And from that, we take away a sense that the world is built according
[30:17.400 -> 30:23.880] to laws we don't quite understand by people who are immeasurably more powerful and skilled.
[30:23.880 -> 30:27.260] Something's going on in a room somewhere where people are pulling the levers etc.
[30:27.400 -> 30:43.000] I think to give your child a sense it's a world built by humans all of whom basically a little bit like you bit scared bit worried bit flawed bit good bit bad etc and you can have a shot at shaping how you see your life.
[30:46.280 -> 30:50.600] shaping how you see your life. I think it's a very important lesson. You walk down the street, why does the street look the way it does? Because someone had a really bad idea
[30:50.600 -> 30:56.200] about what urban design was in about 50 years ago and that's why the street looks as awful
[30:56.200 -> 31:01.960] as it does. There's no law in this. We could be living in a beautiful town maybe and you,
[31:01.960 -> 31:06.000] child, might design the beautiful town if you get into that sort of
[31:06.000 -> 31:11.720] position. So rather than saying the way it is, is the way it has to be in many areas
[31:11.720 -> 31:16.080] there's much more flexibility and I think traditionally this has been something that
[31:16.080 -> 31:21.720] you know so-called privileged people have you know because they see you know mommy or
[31:21.720 -> 31:25.120] daddy is actually the prime minister and so they're pulling
[31:25.120 -> 31:30.220] the levers of power. So the child gets a sense, oh well it's just that idiot in the kitchen
[31:30.220 -> 31:33.880] who I call mummy is actually also going off to, you know, he's got a cabinet brief or
[31:33.880 -> 31:38.680] something and then you get the lesson automatically. And that's a certain psychological privilege
[31:38.680 -> 31:43.680] to think the world is made by people that I could see in the kitchen. But if you think
[31:43.680 -> 31:50.880] the world is made by gods who live on Mount Olympus, so I think anything you can do to humanize the structures
[31:50.880 -> 31:55.880] of power, if you like, is a very useful thing for a child to know about.
[31:55.880 -> 32:00.800] The other thing I'd like to expand on is that lovely quote that you say about so much of
[32:00.800 -> 32:06.360] our life is done trying to impress people that we either don't know or don't even like or care ourselves
[32:07.120 -> 32:11.040] How do we go about teaching both ourselves and others?
[32:11.280 -> 32:17.460] To be able to immunize ourselves against trying to impress others and instead focusing on
[32:18.120 -> 32:20.120] impressing ourselves. Mm-hmm. I
[32:21.040 -> 32:27.360] Think to really absorb the lesson that you can't carry everybody with you in whatever
[32:27.360 -> 32:29.240] project you're doing.
[32:29.240 -> 32:36.440] You know that you will, whatever way of life you lead, create a certain amount of discord
[32:36.440 -> 32:43.160] and enemies and that doesn't have to mean that the life you're leading is wrong.
[32:43.160 -> 32:49.800] It's just the necessary price of making a choice. Every choice you make in your life will alienate in some way. You could marry
[32:49.800 -> 32:54.640] a person and that will annoy someone. Somewhere along the road, you'll have annoyed someone.
[32:54.640 -> 32:58.120] If you do this job, somewhere along the line, someone will think that's not right. It'll
[32:58.120 -> 33:08.800] trigger them in some way and we can panic a little bit too soon. Everybody creates envy and discord in others not willingly.
[33:08.800 -> 33:13.620] It's just an inevitable byproduct. And to not panic about that and to think I don't
[33:13.620 -> 33:20.960] need to carry the whole tribe with me as it were. I can have my own smaller circle and
[33:20.960 -> 33:25.600] not everybody needs to agree. I mean, there's something manic and paranoid
[33:25.600 -> 33:29.440] in the notion that everyone has to agree, everyone has to approve. No, let it go. Let
[33:29.440 -> 33:32.400] it go. Some people are not going to be with you. It doesn't mean to say you've made the
[33:32.400 -> 33:42.080] wrong choice. It's probably a sign that you've made a rather determined choice.
[33:42.080 -> 33:47.400] As a person with a very deep voice, I'm hired all the time for advertising campaigns.
[33:47.400 -> 33:53.120] But a deep voice doesn't sell B2B, and advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell B2B either.
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[34:06.200 -> 34:11.640] All the big wigs, then medium wigs, also small wigs who are on the path to becoming big wigs.
[34:11.640 -> 34:13.720] Okay, that's enough about wigs.
[34:13.720 -> 34:18.160] LinkedIn ads allows you to focus on getting your B2B message to the right people.
[34:18.160 -> 34:23.320] So does that mean you should use ads on LinkedIn instead of hiring me, the man with the deepest
[34:23.320 -> 34:24.720] voice in the world?
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[34:40.240 -> 34:42.960] and conditions apply.
[34:43.440 -> 34:49.760] On our podcast we love to highlight businesses that are doing things a better way so you can live a better life.
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[36:46.440 -> 36:49.640] I've told you this so many times over the last year or so
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[38:05.000 -> 38:05.960] Thanks Harriet.
[38:05.960 -> 38:06.800] Thank you.
[38:09.160 -> 38:13.800] My fear though, is that we can instill these thoughts
[38:13.800 -> 38:14.620] into our children.
[38:14.620 -> 38:16.360] We can have these conversations with our partner.
[38:16.360 -> 38:19.160] We can discuss these things with our friends.
[38:19.160 -> 38:21.720] But the truth is we live in a society that doesn't.
[38:22.640 -> 38:23.680] A really good example,
[38:23.680 -> 38:25.080] I recently left my job as a football
[38:25.080 -> 38:31.920] presenter and not a single person came to me at a party or an event or a friend and
[38:31.920 -> 38:37.280] said, you must be so excited about freedom. Every single person had the same question,
[38:37.280 -> 38:45.040] well what are you going to do next? What's your plan? Almost like I had to have something to define. I was almost
[38:46.320 -> 38:51.120] screaming inside to say why can't it just be enough to be here? Why do I have to? Why are
[38:51.120 -> 38:55.840] you so obsessed with what am I going to do next? I mean really of course what one should say,
[38:55.840 -> 39:00.960] it's hard to say, is why is my freedom so frightening for you? That's really what you
[39:00.960 -> 39:08.360] should be saying to them. What an answer! Yeah, why is, you them. What is it my freedom is triggering in you?
[39:08.360 -> 39:09.960] Is that why you think they're asking that question?
[39:09.960 -> 39:10.960] Of course they are.
[39:10.960 -> 39:14.000] Of course they are, because it's a massive threat.
[39:14.000 -> 39:19.060] They don't like the rigidity of their life, but they don't know how to get out of it.
[39:19.060 -> 39:25.440] So somebody who's jumping out of the prison presents a huge threat. So if you picked up a little bit of
[39:25.440 -> 39:32.640] latent hostility or coldness, that's because you're posing a great challenge to them. You're
[39:32.640 -> 39:38.120] essentially saying, why aren't you jumping out of the prison with me? And that's frightening
[39:38.120 -> 39:39.120] for them.
[39:39.120 -> 39:42.440] Toby So we're talking here about a lot of symptoms,
[39:42.440 -> 39:45.440] if you like, whether it's children that put fame high on you like, whether it's, you know, children that put
[39:45.440 -> 39:50.640] fame high on the agenda, whether it's adults or children caring what other people think
[39:50.640 -> 39:54.320] more than caring what they think. There's lots of things happening here. I think the
[39:54.320 -> 39:59.880] question I'd be asking is, why is this happening? Why have we, you know, we've been around for
[39:59.880 -> 40:11.280] thousands of years, we've evolved as human beings, why have we not evolved to the point where we're having these kinds of valuable conversations and reframing what failure is,
[40:11.280 -> 40:13.440] what success is, what high performance is, what happiness is?
[40:13.440 -> 40:16.800] Mason Look, I'd say that we're still at the dawn.
[40:16.800 -> 40:19.840] We often think of ourselves as quite late on in history, like we've been around for
[40:19.840 -> 40:30.440] ages. We're still getting going as human beings. We're still learning to know ourselves at a very basic level. I think that the whole field of psychology is barely a hundred years
[40:30.440 -> 40:32.760] old as we know it today. It's a hundred years old.
[40:32.760 -> 40:34.720] Steve Moller You use a brilliant metaphor in your book,
[40:34.720 -> 40:39.200] Alan, don't you, where you say that it's almost like our view of our understanding
[40:39.200 -> 40:44.360] of our mind is like how we view 17th century doctors putting leeches on us to get blood
[40:44.360 -> 40:45.960] out. It's still quite rudimentary.
[40:45.960 -> 40:47.100] Toby That's right, that's right. And I think one
[40:47.100 -> 40:53.720] of the things that we're learning is our really perplexing and dispiriting sensitivity, if
[40:53.720 -> 40:58.880] you like, over sensitivity. When biology got going in the late 19th century, and when we
[40:58.880 -> 41:06.120] really started to understand microbiotic life, you know, people discover extraordinary things like, you know, in a
[41:06.120 -> 41:11.460] glass of water, there might be microbiotic life that could kill an entire city and you
[41:11.460 -> 41:18.000] couldn't see it. In a clear glass of water, there might be certain germs or living that
[41:18.000 -> 41:23.000] could kill a million people. This seems utterly implausible. And I think we're, at the psychological
[41:23.000 -> 41:26.120] level, still learning that so-called small
[41:26.120 -> 41:32.280] things, very, very small things, can have an intense impact on our psyches, which is
[41:32.280 -> 41:37.960] what makes modern parenting, of course, so fraught and so interesting as well. But I
[41:37.960 -> 41:42.840] think that we are learning that we are very, very delicate machines. I think for most of
[41:42.840 -> 41:48.160] human history, we were looking to survive. Nowadays, we're looking to thrive. It's very different. If you're
[41:48.160 -> 41:52.840] trying to set up a human being to survive, well, you know, you can give them a slap around
[41:52.840 -> 41:56.880] the ear every now and then and they'll live. They'll have a good life until they're 35
[41:56.880 -> 41:59.800] and then they'll succumb, which is what human beings did for most of our history. We were
[41:59.800 -> 42:05.440] dead by 35 and all we were looking to do was just to kind of procreate the next generation and
[42:05.440 -> 42:10.440] survive until that time. We're now looking to live to be 90 and, dare I say it, to be
[42:10.440 -> 42:15.200] happy and to develop our talents and develop our potential. So we're still working out
[42:15.200 -> 42:20.520] what's the developmental path got to be for that. If that's our ambition, we may need
[42:20.520 -> 42:26.880] to really retool how we're seeing development and massive implications. Yes,
[42:26.880 -> 42:33.840] the family is the place where it all starts. I think we all know, you'll know, I know,
[42:33.840 -> 42:40.400] people who will be in their 70s, 80s, and you'll talk to them at length. And they're not people
[42:40.400 -> 42:46.520] who might otherwise moan, but it quickly emerges that what held them
[42:46.520 -> 42:50.080] back for their whole life was something that happened when they were three or four or five
[42:50.080 -> 42:51.920] or six or nine.
[42:51.920 -> 42:56.120] And very often, it's what one might call a shortfall of love.
[42:56.120 -> 43:06.560] It's quite a weird concept that love, which is a word we kind of too narrowly associate with, you know, going on a date and valentines and all that. But
[43:06.560 -> 43:14.080] the love, intra-human love, is as important to our development as vitamins are to our healthy bodily
[43:14.080 -> 43:22.480] development. And shortfalls of love lead to appalling deformations of character that can
[43:22.480 -> 43:26.480] have lifelong consequences. I think we all wish it wasn't
[43:26.480 -> 43:31.840] true. It's so daunting. What do we do with that information? It's such a terrifying
[43:31.840 -> 43:32.840] piece of information.
[43:32.840 -> 43:34.480] Toby Curry So what do we do with that information?
[43:34.480 -> 43:37.880] Richard Duffield I think one of the things we do is to look
[43:37.880 -> 43:47.480] really very carefully at what a family is and how people are brought up. I mean, in the same way that people learn
[43:47.480 -> 43:52.080] language, think about the porousness of a young child. A young child between the age
[43:52.080 -> 44:01.840] of nine months and four years is incredibly receptive to syntax, grammar, and vocabulary.
[44:01.840 -> 44:07.680] And they end up learning, you know in the finish English Korean whatever
[44:07.680 -> 44:12.720] it is whatever is in the area they will learn that language and without anyone sending to
[44:12.720 -> 44:18.020] school yet it's just they absorb a language and I think while that's going on at a linguistic
[44:18.020 -> 44:26.120] level at an emotional level a child is also learning an emotional language. The language of what's a man, what's a woman,
[44:26.120 -> 44:29.720] what's tenderness, what's love, what's a reward,
[44:29.720 -> 44:31.720] what's good, what's bad.
[44:31.720 -> 44:33.720] All these lessons are kind of pouring in.
[44:33.720 -> 44:37.120] While people are eating animal-shaped pastas in the kitchen
[44:37.120 -> 44:41.320] and drawing pictures and doing handstands in the garden,
[44:41.320 -> 44:43.520] it's all being absorbed.
[44:43.520 -> 44:47.200] And I think we need to really reflect very
[44:47.200 -> 44:52.600] carefully on that. We're all going to get it slightly wrong in the parenting role. Thereafter,
[44:52.600 -> 44:58.820] I think we need to acknowledge that all of us will have tumbled through the kind of whitewater
[44:58.820 -> 45:04.320] rafting of childhood and probably be slightly hanging out the raft and lost a limb and be
[45:04.320 -> 45:08.840] scratched all over. And we do work out where are our wounds, where are our particular wounds,
[45:08.840 -> 45:13.380] what's particularly difficult for us, what are the ways in which we're not doing justice
[45:13.380 -> 45:19.680] to reality. Because all of us have some pretty strange ideas about life that are bequeathed
[45:19.680 -> 45:28.840] to us by our complex early histories. We'll have odd ideas about anger, envy, kindness, success,
[45:28.840 -> 45:34.080] or slightly in one area or another. Think about everyone you work with, everyone you
[45:34.080 -> 45:40.080] were at school with. Imagine a group of 10, 20 people. Quite quickly, you'll think, well,
[45:40.080 -> 45:43.800] okay, that one always does that thing. That one always does the other thing. There's that
[45:43.800 -> 45:48.040] one who just can't get that thing straight or whatever. All of us are the kind of legacies
[45:48.040 -> 45:52.840] of these complex upbringings and we're all, and I say this with love, we're all a bit
[45:52.840 -> 45:54.640] strange. We're really all of us.
[45:54.640 -> 45:56.360] Mason That's great though, right? Let's be strange.
[45:56.360 -> 45:58.640] Peter Yes, let's be strange, but let's also find
[45:58.640 -> 46:02.520] a way. I mean, there's good strange and there's tricky strange. There's tricky strange which
[46:02.520 -> 46:05.160] actually trips you up
[46:05.160 -> 46:09.400] and stops you from being the better version of yourself. Now, one of the problems we tend
[46:09.400 -> 46:15.100] to have as humans is feedback. Now, feedback is so hard to receive and we know this in
[46:15.100 -> 46:21.180] an office context and we know this also within a relationship context. I mean, one of the
[46:21.180 -> 46:25.640] deepest wishes we go into relationships with is, love me for who I really
[46:25.640 -> 46:26.640] am.
[46:26.640 -> 46:27.640] What a difficult idea.
[46:27.640 -> 46:28.720] I mean, really?
[46:28.720 -> 46:30.840] You really want to be loved for who you actually are?
[46:30.840 -> 46:32.780] In a way, yes, we want to never be criticized.
[46:32.780 -> 46:37.240] We want just someone to welcome us as a full, you know, wondrous creature.
[46:37.240 -> 46:40.420] And of course, no one can because that is asking too much.
[46:40.420 -> 46:43.960] But we're so bad at hearing feedback and we're so bad at giving feedback.
[46:43.960 -> 46:49.480] Normally this happens at, you know, 12 o'clock in the kitchen when the dishes need to be done and
[46:49.480 -> 46:54.080] people are a bit tetchy and they throw vicious words at one another because they're frustrated
[46:54.080 -> 46:58.600] and then those vicious words give birth to other vicious words and you get into these
[46:58.600 -> 47:00.100] terrible cycles.
[47:00.100 -> 47:03.800] Often you'll get couples who are trying to teach each other really important lessons
[47:03.800 -> 47:09.040] but they're not speaking them properly and they're not listening to them properly. So a major opportunity
[47:09.040 -> 47:12.760] is to grow our mists and our pride gets in the way.
[47:12.760 -> 47:15.440] Toby So tell us how we do give and receive feedback
[47:15.440 -> 47:16.440] better.
[47:16.440 -> 47:19.880] Richard I think one of the things we do is to accept
[47:19.880 -> 47:28.320] that it is entirely legitimate to see relationships as areas, as arenas in which we learn about ourselves
[47:28.320 -> 47:31.840] and deliver knowledge to the other person about who they are, but that we have to do
[47:31.840 -> 47:37.240] it very, very carefully. And there's nothing illegitimate about that. Because I think that
[47:37.240 -> 47:40.360] the notion of, you know, I had to break up with my partner because they didn't accept
[47:40.360 -> 47:44.200] me for who I am. And normally people will clap at this point and go, brilliant, you
[47:44.200 -> 47:48.960] know, you got out of a terrible relationship. I'm not discounting that, that could be a
[47:48.960 -> 47:55.680] difficult relationship. But it could also be that the non-acceptance captures something
[47:55.680 -> 48:00.880] important that needs to be listened to. To be endorsed for everything one is, isn't love.
[48:00.880 -> 48:07.340] I mean that's, I don't know, a kind of euphoric demand for approval that breaks
[48:07.340 -> 48:09.340] all respectable boundaries.
[48:09.340 -> 48:11.300] Rupert Murdoch It also means we're rigid. Accept me for
[48:11.300 -> 48:15.940] who I am. It means I'm not going to change for anybody. How unsafe and toxic is that?
[48:15.940 -> 48:18.580] Peter Robinson Absolutely. So two people need to accept
[48:18.580 -> 48:22.460] that they are flawed. I mean, the ability to go through life, and we're big on this
[48:22.460 -> 48:27.760] at the School of Life, to actually say I'm a flawed human being. Christianity used to emphasize this point, but because
[48:27.760 -> 48:31.880] it was associated with lots of things about Christianity that were then quite dark and
[48:31.880 -> 48:35.820] discounted, etc., it's not a way of thinking that's popular in the modern world. But the
[48:35.820 -> 48:40.560] notion that, you know, we are all sinners, right? You say that nowadays, people go, oh,
[48:40.560 -> 48:45.600] how do you mean sinners? I'm not a sinner. I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm beautiful.
[48:49.520 -> 48:54.400] It's quite a good starting point to go, you know, we're all a bit broken in some way, and that's okay. It's okay to be broken. We're just trying to, you know, fix ourselves,
[48:54.400 -> 48:59.360] and that's okay. So it's a better starting point, and it's particularly useful in relationships
[48:59.360 -> 49:05.000] because it breaks what could otherwise be a kind of cycle of defensiveness.
[49:05.000 -> 49:10.000] And I think defensiveness is the great enemy of communication,
[49:10.000 -> 49:13.000] growth in friendship and in relationships.
[49:13.000 -> 49:16.000] Toby Can you take us through the steps then, Alan, about how,
[49:16.000 -> 49:18.000] if you're listening to this, you're thinking,
[49:18.000 -> 49:22.000] in my relationship, I want to start to explore,
[49:22.000 -> 49:27.120] I want to receive and to give feedback and to accept each other.
[49:27.120 -> 49:28.120] Tell us how we do that.
[49:28.120 -> 49:30.160] Toby I think a really useful question to ask on
[49:30.160 -> 49:35.120] a date, you know, you go on a date with your partner and you say, it could sound a bit
[49:35.120 -> 49:37.800] odd, how have I annoyed you recently?
[49:37.800 -> 49:39.720] I probably annoyed you.
[49:39.720 -> 49:41.560] How do you think I've annoyed you?
[49:41.560 -> 49:49.440] And to be able to listen to the answer without going, that's not true. That's not true. You've annoyed me, you know, not to do any of that. Simply to listen and
[49:50.080 -> 49:54.080] you know, therapists are good at teaching us this, to reflect back. So someone goes, you know,
[49:54.240 -> 49:59.040] I'm annoyed because every time I mention a friend you somehow find something wrong with a friend and
[49:59.920 -> 50:03.600] rather than going, that's not true. I really like all your friends, to go, okay,
[50:03.600 -> 50:09.160] so I'm hearing that you don't think I give your social choices enough approval. And the than going, that's not true, I really like all your friends, to go, okay, so I'm hearing that you don't think I give your social choices enough approval.
[50:09.160 -> 50:12.840] And the person goes, wow, I've actually been heard, I've actually been understood.
[50:12.840 -> 50:13.840] Brilliant.
[50:13.840 -> 50:19.320] You just rephrase what they've told you without butting in and saying, you know, I'm a good
[50:19.320 -> 50:20.320] person.
[50:20.320 -> 50:24.520] You allow yourself to tolerate the notion that you've made a mistake, that, you know,
[50:24.520 -> 50:25.080] that this is difficult
[50:25.080 -> 50:26.080] for you.
[50:26.080 -> 50:32.560] So what do we do to warm ourselves up to be able to hear that and to reframe it without
[50:32.560 -> 50:37.600] letting our own ego get in the way or our own fragility, one to defend ourselves?
[50:37.600 -> 50:41.480] It's partly a leap of faith and of course once you've done one round of this, and so
[50:41.480 -> 50:44.760] they've done it for you and you've done it for them, that becomes very much easier to
[50:44.760 -> 50:48.920] do the second round. And then another useful exercise is
[50:48.920 -> 50:53.680] for each person to say, what is it about my background that's made something difficult
[50:53.680 -> 50:58.160] for me? What's made it difficult for me that the duvet cover is never properly on
[50:58.160 -> 51:08.560] the bed? What's made it difficult for me that you come home late and I get angry. Try and explain because so often we're not very
[51:08.560 -> 51:13.040] generous in our explanations both to ourselves and to the other person about why difficult
[51:13.040 -> 51:19.000] behaviors occurred. But there's almost always a poignant backstory. But we're unable to
[51:19.000 -> 51:23.200] deliver it properly to the other person because we're so on edge and we're so angry. So to
[51:23.200 -> 51:28.840] be able to give that backstory is another gift both to ourselves and the other person because we're so on edge and we're so angry. So to be able to give that back story is another gift both to ourselves and the other person. And you know, at the
[51:28.840 -> 51:34.800] end of the day, the more back stories are shared in a calm way, the more everybody emerges
[51:34.800 -> 51:39.360] as worthy of love. Of course they do. Of course they do. It's the lack of a back story that
[51:39.360 -> 51:41.940] always brings out anger and cruelty.
[51:41.940 -> 51:46.880] Matthew 14. Why are we not teaching people to have these conversations earlier on?
[51:46.880 -> 51:48.240] You know, I'm 44, right?
[51:48.240 -> 51:53.960] I've been married, I've been with my wife, we met very young, so nearly 25 years together.
[51:53.960 -> 51:57.920] No one's ever said to me, try asking your wife, what have I done that's annoyed you?
[51:57.920 -> 51:59.560] What about me isn't great?
[51:59.560 -> 52:05.720] You know, those sorts of conversations, this work on our relationship, the fact that marriage and
[52:05.720 -> 52:08.960] long-term relationships take effort and time and care.
[52:08.960 -> 52:18.440] I'd say the answer is that we haven't valued, as a society, good relationships and flourishing
[52:18.440 -> 52:22.840] highly enough. And we really value that people don't have car crashes, and that's why there's
[52:22.840 -> 52:31.040] an enormous industry around trying to prevent car crashes. We don't have such precautionary views around relationships.
[52:31.040 -> 52:35.480] We just don't. So I think that, you know, looked at slightly cynically, we don't care
[52:35.480 -> 52:39.000] enough. And because we don't care enough, we don't put enough effort in. So there are
[52:39.000 -> 52:43.840] some people, your listeners, you know, others who do care very much and they'll be starting
[52:43.840 -> 52:44.840] to invest in this area.
[52:44.840 -> 52:47.320] Mason Maybe we don't know how amazing our relationships could be as well.
[52:47.320 -> 53:06.440] I think that's true I think that's true I that if you've had a life where your
[53:06.440 -> 53:11.720] safe place has been people don't understand me, I'm isolated and there's a lot of conflict.
[53:11.720 -> 53:17.100] If that's what you know and you're built to handle that situation because you throw yourself
[53:17.100 -> 53:22.040] into your work, you have quite a cynical view of others, you don't put much trust in it,
[53:22.040 -> 53:27.120] you're built for that. You're built for that kind of conflictual situation. Somebody comes along and goes, you know what, you could be close
[53:27.120 -> 53:30.560] to another human being. You could let them in. You could lower your guard and it could
[53:30.560 -> 53:35.480] be okay. One level you think brilliant. Another level it's a disaster. It's like, well, I've
[53:35.480 -> 53:48.880] been leading the wrong life. So there's sometimes an investment in continuing down patterns of unhappiness or a kind of angry defensiveness because it's
[53:48.880 -> 53:50.160] worked well for you in the past.
[53:50.160 -> 53:54.040] Toby I want to move on and talk about mental health.
[53:54.040 -> 53:56.840] So can we change the way this world operates?
[53:56.840 -> 54:00.160] Can we change people's thinking about being employed and their idea of freedom?
[54:00.160 -> 54:05.440] Can we change our children attaching their happiness to being a YouTube star?
[54:05.440 -> 54:09.280] Can we change people when they start their careers thinking they will only be happy when
[54:09.280 -> 54:12.440] they earn a certain salary or buy a certain house?
[54:12.440 -> 54:13.440] Can we change this?
[54:13.440 -> 54:15.820] Mason Yes and no, but I sense by the impatience
[54:15.820 -> 54:21.440] of your question, which is an impatience I've been through a lot, but I think I've slightly
[54:21.440 -> 54:22.440] outgrown.
[54:22.440 -> 54:26.760] I think one can spend a long time looking for a cockpit, and in the cockpit, looking for a button
[54:26.760 -> 54:28.200] that will change the world,
[54:28.200 -> 54:31.200] and think, if I press that thing, everything will happen.
[54:31.200 -> 54:32.040] There isn't.
[54:32.040 -> 54:33.600] I think the way to think about it is,
[54:33.600 -> 54:36.560] you know, there's a giant river of humanity,
[54:36.560 -> 54:38.880] and all of us are standing by the side of the river,
[54:38.880 -> 54:40.400] and we can put a few things in it.
[54:40.400 -> 54:43.360] We can get our picture of whatever our special juice is
[54:43.360 -> 54:51.700] that we want to put in that river, And we will change in some way the current and texture of the river of humanity.
[54:51.700 -> 54:56.120] But it's not in the power of anyone, even the most powerful human on the planet, to
[54:56.120 -> 55:01.680] magically change the world. We want all of us, we massively exaggerate our powers. All
[55:01.680 -> 55:05.360] of us are very fragile, evanescent beings. The most
[55:05.360 -> 55:10.800] powerful human on earth today has got a very limited capacity to change humanity. It's
[55:10.800 -> 55:16.580] a broad river that kind of sweeps along and it does its own thing. If we can just change
[55:16.580 -> 55:21.920] a tiny bit of the river bank, you know, slightly adjust something or slightly change the turbulence
[55:21.920 -> 55:30.360] or quality of the water as it makes its way down through time will have done well. And that's okay. That's okay. So, you know, you're running
[55:30.360 -> 55:35.520] this lovely podcast. That's your contribution at the moment to humanity and that's okay.
[55:35.520 -> 55:38.780] And you know, a certain number of people will listen, a certain number of people. Also,
[55:38.780 -> 55:42.840] we never quite know our impact on others. You know, that's the other odd thing. You
[55:42.840 -> 55:48.320] can have a three-minute conversation with somebody that you forget about instantly and they'll remember it for the next 50 years
[55:48.320 -> 55:52.500] and it will have huge consequences. So we can never quite know. So a certain amount
[55:52.500 -> 55:57.560] of modesty, but I think I know that feeling. You get up in the morning, go, nothing's changing.
[55:57.560 -> 55:58.560] It's all, you know.
[55:58.560 -> 56:01.080] Steve Can I pick up a word that you used at the
[56:01.080 -> 56:05.680] start of that answer there though, Alan, lle rydych chi wedi sôn am ymddygiadau neu am ddymhau.
[56:05.680 -> 56:07.760] Ac wrth fy mod i'n ddysgu eich llyfr,
[56:07.760 -> 56:11.320] roeddwn i'n golygu bod rhai ymchwil wedi'i ddysgu o'r
[56:11.320 -> 56:13.680] athwr Brad Stolberg a Steve Magnus,
[56:13.680 -> 56:17.600] lle roedden nhw wedi sôn am ymchwil am y mynedd i'r perffect fit.
[56:17.600 -> 56:18.800] Ac roedden nhw'n dweud, mewn ein cymdeithas,
[56:18.800 -> 56:21.080] rydym yn ymwneud â'r ffaith bod, pan fyddwn ni'n gwrthwynebu rhywun,
[56:21.080 -> 56:23.920] os ydyn ni'n mynd i fod fel gartref ar y ffyrdd,
[56:23.920 -> 56:28.000] y dylwn ni ddod yn ffyrdd o ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd, pan fyddwn ni'n dechrau swydd, y dylwn ni fod yn ffyrdd o ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd ar y ffyrdd llyfr, byddwn ni'n rhaid i ni sylwi'r ffyrdd yn unig ar ôl, pan fyddwn ni'n dechrau swydd, byddwn ni'n rhaid i ni fod yn
[56:28.000 -> 56:32.000] eithaf ddiddorol amdano ar unig ar ôl, ac os na, byddwn ni'n ofyn i ni fynd o'r ffordd
[56:32.000 -> 56:36.000] neu gwneud ymlaen â'r gysylltiad, pan, os oeddem yn ddiddorol ac roeddem yn rhoi amser i'w wneud,
[56:36.000 -> 56:42.000] gallai'n gallu cyflwyno i rhai pethau sy'n digwydd yn ddur.
[56:42.000 -> 56:47.200] Rwy'n ddiddorol o'r hyn rydych chi wedi dysgu am ddatblygu does last a while. I'm interested in what have you learned about developing patience
[56:47.200 -> 56:52.680] and giving something time whether it's to explore an emotion or to stick with something
[56:52.680 -> 56:56.840] even when it feels initially uncomfortable and what the benefits of doing that.
[56:56.840 -> 57:03.640] I think one of the things I've learned is that self-awareness is by necessity a very
[57:03.640 -> 57:06.560] very slow process and I I think, particularly if
[57:06.560 -> 57:12.240] you're writing, you often want to get to the point very quickly. And it's very frustrating.
[57:12.240 -> 57:17.000] You think, ah, something I want to say, etc. Sometimes the best way to work is to stop
[57:17.000 -> 57:20.480] working, for example. And this could seem like a very local example, but I think there's
[57:20.480 -> 57:29.120] a bigger lesson in that. Sometimes the way in which you're really developing your ideas is to go and stare out of the window and look at the clouds passing.
[57:29.120 -> 57:35.160] It doesn't look like work. Or go for a walk. I think sometimes that the mind is working
[57:35.160 -> 57:41.000] things out at its own pace and is pushing you towards choices and decisions that you
[57:41.000 -> 57:49.560] don't really know. You can't know for maybe a long time why something happened. But it might be next week, next month, in five years, you think, okay, I'm
[57:49.560 -> 57:55.160] starting to see why that thing took place. There was a deeper logic that was hidden from
[57:55.160 -> 58:01.440] me at the time that's now becoming apparent. So I think the ability to be a little bit
[58:01.440 -> 58:26.000] patient to realize that you can't just step into your mind like there's a trap door and you can just go in with a torch and just say you know who am I what should I do what's my best choices you might need to know yourself by bumping into bits of life and working out where the edges of the room are what the contours of your own personality are you can't get there in one go and that's in a way a little bit dispiriting because we
[58:26.000 -> 58:27.320] want an instant solution.
[58:27.320 -> 58:31.360] But once you can set yourself up for that, greater relief can come I think.
[58:31.360 -> 58:34.280] Took Talking of relief, you've described mental
[58:34.280 -> 58:37.200] breakdowns as this quest for knowledge.
[58:37.200 -> 58:41.040] Could you explain that in a bit more detail for us?
[58:41.040 -> 58:46.600] Well, sometimes we think that we can know ourselves without pain but I
[58:46.600 -> 58:55.680] think we might need at points to have a certain amount of crises that alert us
[58:55.680 -> 59:01.200] to things that we wouldn't be ready for until our pain reached a certain
[59:01.200 -> 59:07.120] threshold that we're simply uninclined to think properly about
[59:07.120 -> 59:13.040] situations until they boil over. That would be lovely if that wasn't necessary. But I
[59:13.040 -> 59:19.620] think in some cases it really is necessary. It's only when something goes quite wrong.
[59:19.620 -> 59:23.900] And that's why sometimes, you know, illnesses of the mind or the body are moments where
[59:23.900 -> 59:29.600] people think, okay, something's not right. And actually, if I'm honest, it's not been right for a while.
[59:29.600 -> 59:34.880] I've been in pain for a while. And, you know, I mentioned the word mania and manic a few
[59:34.880 -> 59:40.920] times. It's an interesting word. The idea of being in a manic state where you can't
[59:40.920 -> 59:50.400] bear to look inside because there's something a little bit too confronting and you use external activity. Work is a brilliant one but it could be exercise, it could be
[59:50.400 -> 59:55.280] family life, it could be pornography, alcohol, whatever you like. Something that keeps you
[59:55.280 -> 01:00:00.160] away from you until such times you can no longer do it anymore because there is some
[01:00:00.160 -> 01:00:05.760] sort of crisis that forces you back on yourself and leads you to ask, okay, what
[01:00:05.760 -> 01:00:10.920] am I really trying to do here? What's not working at all? Let me be honest with myself.
[01:00:10.920 -> 01:00:12.440] Have you been there?
[01:00:12.440 -> 01:00:18.920] I've been there. I've been there for over small and large things, I'd say. And I think
[01:00:18.920 -> 01:00:27.060] that's why I'm very alert to sort of to how long it can take and how humble one has to be over a life.
[01:00:27.060 -> 01:00:31.160] I wish there were a straight path that you could just kind of say okay that's what I
[01:00:31.160 -> 01:00:33.120] need to do, that's where I'm gonna go.
[01:00:33.120 -> 01:00:38.360] I think life is made up of a number of necessary crashes, you know it's the old thing of using
[01:00:38.360 -> 01:00:48.440] a car crash, using the crisis as it were to develop your insight. So what steps can you highlight or
[01:00:48.440 -> 01:00:53.760] advocate for anyone listening to this that maybe that resonates with them, they
[01:00:53.760 -> 01:00:58.120] realize they've been disassociating the feelings and they're filling it with
[01:00:58.120 -> 01:01:08.440] activity, to avoid us having to have our own version of a car crash. How do we avoid that? Well, look, I'm a great fan of therapy,
[01:01:08.440 -> 01:01:12.120] but let me also say that many, many therapists
[01:01:12.120 -> 01:01:14.560] are very substandard.
[01:01:14.560 -> 01:01:16.480] And so, you know, if there are listeners out there
[01:01:16.480 -> 01:01:19.200] who go, oh, I tried that thing and it was no good.
[01:01:19.200 -> 01:01:20.880] Well, keep going, it's like love.
[01:01:20.880 -> 01:01:22.080] You know, you can try it a lot
[01:01:22.080 -> 01:01:24.880] and it remains a useful thing to aim for,
[01:01:24.880 -> 01:01:28.800] but it's very hard to find the right person or a person who you know, it's going to be right for you
[01:01:28.940 -> 01:01:30.940] but really what we mean by therapy is
[01:01:31.760 -> 01:01:33.760] time and
[01:01:34.080 -> 01:01:41.240] Committed space in which to explore not just to live but explore how you're living. You know, why did I get angry that day?
[01:01:41.280 -> 01:01:43.080] What am I feeling right now?
[01:01:43.080 -> 01:01:50.400] Sometimes it can be done with another person. It can also be done alone to carve out time for a therapeutic reflection on your
[01:01:50.400 -> 01:01:56.360] own life and to say, okay, even a very simple question, what am I feeling right now? Just
[01:01:56.360 -> 01:02:00.920] to give yourself a bit of time every day. You go, what's coming up for me? What's on
[01:02:00.920 -> 01:02:05.320] the agenda? It could sound childishly simple. What do you mean what's on the agenda?
[01:02:05.320 -> 01:02:10.560] Just shut your eyes, sit in a room on your own, and say to yourself, what's coming up
[01:02:10.560 -> 01:02:15.240] for me now? Normally, by the way, the answer's there waiting for you, just behind the door.
[01:02:15.240 -> 01:02:18.840] It's there waiting for you. Just open the door and you'll realise, I know what it is.
[01:02:18.840 -> 01:02:23.720] It's that argument I had with X at 11 o'clock. Now it's maybe 7 o'clock at night, but that
[01:02:23.720 -> 01:02:27.500] argument is still vivid and there's something in it. And then you say, okay, right,
[01:02:27.500 -> 01:02:31.140] well, what was it about that thing? What is it that's disturbing me? What is it that's
[01:02:31.140 -> 01:02:35.900] sad? Or it could be something happy, and let's not always skew it towards the negative. It
[01:02:35.900 -> 01:02:40.540] could be, you know, there was something so amazing when I walked out of the house this
[01:02:40.540 -> 01:02:45.120] morning, the trees, the light, there's some promise about that day.
[01:02:45.120 -> 01:02:48.840] And you're like, okay, right, well, what is it? Let's try and unpack it. What was that
[01:02:48.840 -> 01:02:54.200] excitement? What was it? What can you learn from it? How can a bigger theme emerge from
[01:02:54.200 -> 01:02:55.200] that?
[01:02:55.200 -> 01:03:02.780] You know, all of us are unbelievably sensitive machines that throw up a huge amount of data.
[01:03:02.780 -> 01:03:05.260] And you know what we do with most of the data? Stick it in the bin.
[01:03:05.260 -> 01:03:07.600] We just chuck it all away.
[01:03:07.600 -> 01:03:10.720] We register every day so much.
[01:03:10.720 -> 01:03:13.480] In an average five minute conversation with a stranger,
[01:03:13.480 -> 01:03:16.000] in an hour of going for a walk or whatever,
[01:03:16.000 -> 01:03:17.600] you will think more thoughts
[01:03:17.600 -> 01:03:19.200] that are in the average library.
[01:03:20.400 -> 01:03:21.880] Our brains are so rich,
[01:03:21.880 -> 01:03:26.000] but we don't do them the honour of exploring them. We don't
[01:03:26.000 -> 01:03:30.920] sit with our thoughts long enough to unpack them. Some of you go, well, I'm not schooled
[01:03:30.920 -> 01:03:34.760] in this, I've not been to university, I don't know how to do this. Well, it's got
[01:03:34.760 -> 01:03:40.160] nothing to do with that. We are all wonderfully well-equipped to look inside at what we're
[01:03:40.160 -> 01:03:43.600] feeling. Just literally ask yourself, what are you feeling? What are you feeling right
[01:03:43.600 -> 01:03:45.880] now? Matthew 47 What are you feeling?
[01:03:45.880 -> 01:03:46.880] Tom Clougherty
[01:03:46.880 -> 01:03:47.880] Right now?
[01:03:47.880 -> 01:03:48.880] Terrifically honored to be with you guys.
[01:03:48.880 -> 01:03:49.880] It's lovely.
[01:03:49.880 -> 01:03:53.360] I've written this book, you know, I've been on my own for a long time, you know,
[01:03:53.360 -> 01:03:55.720] writing it and lovely to have a conversation.
[01:03:55.720 -> 01:03:57.280] So I feel honored.
[01:03:57.280 -> 01:03:59.160] I don't know you guys deeply.
[01:03:59.160 -> 01:04:03.720] I know your voices and I know your approach, but I don't, you know, it's the first time
[01:04:03.720 -> 01:04:09.560] I'm in this chair and that's a lovely feeling. So broadly, I'm chuffed. But I'd also say
[01:04:09.560 -> 01:04:14.800] that I won't really fully know what I've been feeling for a while. Feelings take time to
[01:04:14.800 -> 01:04:19.760] emerge and again, giving it time, you know. But again, yeah, just come back to the idea,
[01:04:19.760 -> 01:04:26.160] our brains are wonderful machines. We don't treat them right. We don't give them the space they need.
[01:04:26.160 -> 01:04:31.520] We don't get to know them compassionately enough. We're not curious enough. And that's why we've
[01:04:31.520 -> 01:04:36.720] run into so many mental problems and disorders. We're going to move on to our quickfire questions
[01:04:36.720 -> 01:04:42.880] now. But before we do that, after all of the things that we've spoken about, I think what I
[01:04:42.880 -> 01:04:45.440] need to know from you is, should we be aiming for
[01:04:45.440 -> 01:04:49.760] happiness? My fear with happiness, if that's what we're aiming for, is that it's inevitable
[01:04:49.760 -> 01:04:56.480] that happiness comes and goes. I'm trying to find acceptance rather than happiness because
[01:04:56.480 -> 01:05:02.560] I think that whether you're happy or sad, whether you're up or down, acceptance might be the thing.
[01:05:02.560 -> 01:05:08.560] To see where you're coming from, I like the word fulfillment because fulfillment, you could have a fulfilling life but be in
[01:05:08.560 -> 01:05:12.920] a pretty bad mood quite a lot of the time. You have a fulfilling life but actually things
[01:05:12.920 -> 01:05:17.680] have gone wrong today because it suggests to me a goal that is quite compatible with
[01:05:17.680 -> 01:05:22.160] reversals, with difficult moves, with difficult stages. There is something about the word
[01:05:22.160 -> 01:05:29.520] happiness that is maybe a little bit brittle. It suggests that unhappiness means that one has failed. And I think that
[01:05:29.520 -> 01:05:33.340] the human mind is, you know, we are glass half-empty creatures and we shouldn't beat
[01:05:33.340 -> 01:05:38.380] ourselves up about that. There are good evolutionary reasons why we're glass half-empty creatures.
[01:05:38.380 -> 01:05:42.220] You know, the glass half-full ones all got eaten somewhere thousands of years ago. So
[01:05:42.220 -> 01:05:45.040] we are the heirs of the great warriors of our species,
[01:05:45.040 -> 01:05:50.140] the ones who did wake up in the morning noticing that things were difficult. And that's alright
[01:05:50.140 -> 01:05:57.360] so long as we're properly focused and we have a kind of philosophy where problems can be
[01:05:57.360 -> 01:06:05.600] contributing to a good life. I think none of us need a perfect life. We need a life where the difficulties we run into make
[01:06:05.600 -> 01:06:11.440] sense within our wider conception of what we're doing here on earth. That's what we
[01:06:11.440 -> 01:06:12.440] need.
[01:06:12.440 -> 01:06:15.680] We're now going to move to our quickfire questions and the first one is the three non-negotiable
[01:06:15.680 -> 01:06:20.840] behaviors that are important to you.
[01:06:20.840 -> 01:06:32.000] Kindness has to be top of the list. Thereafter, thoughtfulness, because that's so reassuring in oneself and in another person,
[01:06:32.000 -> 01:06:33.080] thoughtfulness.
[01:06:33.080 -> 01:06:39.600] And thirdly, laughter, which is a sign that one's properly understood how absurd one is
[01:06:39.600 -> 01:06:41.160] within the broader context of things.
[01:06:41.160 -> 01:06:55.000] What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and why? I think the best piece of advice is probably around the necessity of choice and every choice
[01:06:55.000 -> 01:07:01.640] requiring sacrifice. So whatever you choose, it means you're not choosing something else
[01:07:01.640 -> 01:07:06.680] and therefore you can't have it all. And therefore regret is not some personal
[01:07:06.680 -> 01:07:11.280] curse, it's part of the human condition. You will be regretting certain things. That's
[01:07:11.280 -> 01:07:14.440] okay. Welcome to the planet. That's all right.
[01:07:14.440 -> 01:07:19.440] Toby Are we adding to the toxic narrative around success by calling our podcast the
[01:07:19.440 -> 01:07:20.960] high performance podcast?
[01:07:20.960 -> 01:07:27.340] Richard I think if you quickly nuance it, it can be the starting point for
[01:07:27.340 -> 01:07:34.540] really interesting conversation. So to use a slightly cliched or aggressive phrase but
[01:07:34.540 -> 01:07:38.620] then turn it is I think quite a clever thing to do. You could go back to one moment of
[01:07:38.620 -> 01:07:50.280] your life, what would it be and why? Look I think the adolescent me was very troubled and very alone. And I think more than trying
[01:07:50.280 -> 01:07:57.720] to remove the problems, to simply say, these problems have a long tail and a long future
[01:07:57.720 -> 01:08:02.280] and it's alright, you'll learn to put these to use. The trick is not to have a problem
[01:08:02.280 -> 01:08:05.040] free life, it's to have a life where your
[01:08:05.040 -> 01:08:08.160] problems contribute to something interesting.
[01:08:08.160 -> 01:08:10.160] Toby Are you happy?
[01:08:10.160 -> 01:08:15.440] Richard Today, yes. Tomorrow, no. Yesterday, probably
[01:08:15.440 -> 01:08:19.480] not. But I'm broadly, on a good day, fulfilled.
[01:08:19.480 -> 01:08:22.280] Toby What's your greatest strength and your biggest
[01:08:22.280 -> 01:08:23.280] weakness?
[01:08:23.280 -> 01:08:27.800] Richard My greatest strength is my ability to unpack feelings.
[01:08:27.900 -> 01:08:30.300] I think give me a feeling and I'll get to work on it,
[01:08:30.300 -> 01:08:31.700] try and work out what's going on in it.
[01:08:31.800 -> 01:08:33.100] So I think that's probably my greatest strength.
[01:08:33.400 -> 01:08:37.600] Greatest weakness, anxiety and behind anxiety, fear.
[01:08:38.500 -> 01:08:39.800] Yeah, too much of that.
[01:08:41.100 -> 01:08:41.600] Everything.
[01:08:43.100 -> 01:08:50.000] I'm a catastrophist and everything is always on the verge of turning into the worst version of itself.
[01:08:50.000 -> 01:08:59.000] I am that as well, but I actually have worked out in my head that maybe that's actually a positive thing and it's probably kept me safe.
[01:08:59.000 -> 01:09:03.000] If you were a true catastrophist, you wouldn't think that. You'd think it was just a catastrophe.
[01:09:03.000 -> 01:09:04.000] That's true.
[01:09:04.000 -> 01:09:12.360] So I think you're a... You're not a Jedi level catastrophist. Are't think that. You'd think it was just a catastrophe. That's true. So I think you're not a Jedi. Are you at Jedi level? Yes, 100%.
[01:09:12.360 -> 01:09:16.480] So how does that, I'm interested in how does that manifest itself in your life
[01:09:16.480 -> 01:09:23.520] and how do you control it or manage that emotion? Kind people around me
[01:09:23.520 -> 01:09:27.400] have tried to point this out to me. I think I don't trust situations.
[01:09:27.400 -> 01:09:33.960] I don't trust that things can be okay. I'm learning to and I know how to do this for
[01:09:33.960 -> 01:09:41.280] other people but I find it hard to do for myself. And I think that it can lead to cutting
[01:09:41.280 -> 01:09:48.320] yourself off unfairly from possibilities and you know there is something about a dark
[01:09:48.320 -> 01:09:52.720] prognosis that you know you can end up making it happen when it didn't need to happen.
[01:09:52.720 -> 01:09:54.540] Ritchie I think that's actually a really powerful
[01:09:54.540 -> 01:10:00.000] thing though to admit that you're still searching for answers at the age of 53 because there
[01:10:00.000 -> 01:10:03.000] will be a lot of people that listen to this and think wow I wish I was Alan de Botta,
[01:10:03.000 -> 01:10:06.920] he's got it all sorted, he knows the answers to everything. And I think it's important to
[01:10:06.920 -> 01:10:08.160] say that that's not.
[01:10:08.160 -> 01:10:11.360] Matthew Feeney Of course, yes, and I think absolutely. I
[01:10:11.360 -> 01:10:15.960] mean, hopefully, is it something that emerges from your show? Maybe, I think it's something
[01:10:15.960 -> 01:10:20.320] you could need to bait right into it. I mean, if anyone claims to know what on earth is
[01:10:20.320 -> 01:10:23.600] going on, they need their head examined. I mean, it's a sign that they're not really
[01:10:23.600 -> 01:10:27.560] wrestling with enough of the problems or they're not being honest with you. Of course, we're
[01:10:27.560 -> 01:10:30.400] all still at the very beginning of trying to work out what's going on.
[01:10:30.400 -> 01:10:33.120] Toby And our final question, your one golden rule
[01:10:33.120 -> 01:10:37.040] that you would like to leave our listeners with for living a high performance life.
[01:10:37.040 -> 01:10:39.280] Richard Kindness to yourself and to others and really
[01:10:39.280 -> 01:10:46.640] what I mean by that is kindness to accept that you may be stranger and more complicated than you bargained
[01:10:46.640 -> 01:10:52.920] with and you're going to be kind enough to the world to make an accommodation for that
[01:10:52.920 -> 01:10:59.760] and you're going to work on yourself so that you are not going to cause too much damage
[01:10:59.760 -> 01:11:03.480] to those who have to come into contact with you and that's again for everybody work in
[01:11:03.480 -> 01:11:07.840] progress. Adam, thank you so much. What a fascinating conversation.
[01:11:07.840 -> 01:11:08.840] Thank you.
[01:11:08.840 -> 01:11:09.840] Damien.
[01:11:09.840 -> 01:11:10.840] Jake.
[01:11:10.840 -> 01:11:18.880] An incredible amount of things to pick out from that. I think the overall sense that
[01:11:18.880 -> 01:11:28.240] I had was, are we spending enough time asking the questions that matter? Like in all honesty, I don't remember the last time you and I had a conversation about
[01:11:28.240 -> 01:11:33.560] things other than sort of high performance, like real, how are you, like, what are you
[01:11:33.560 -> 01:11:35.880] happy about, what are you sad about, what are you stressed about?
[01:11:35.880 -> 01:11:40.920] I certainly have come away from that conversation, and I'm going to speak to Harriet later and
[01:11:40.920 -> 01:11:44.880] basically just say, like, I don't think I've loved you enough.
[01:11:44.880 -> 01:11:47.960] Like, we've existed really nicely, and we've done some good things and been
[01:11:47.960 -> 01:11:52.440] for some nice meals and whatever but like really, like loving you, do you know
[01:11:52.440 -> 01:11:56.080] what I mean? I don't, I'm not sure, I don't think I've done that. Well that's really
[01:11:56.080 -> 01:11:59.600] powerful and very honest Jake. I think, I think you're right, I think what I've
[01:11:59.600 -> 01:12:04.520] taken from that really incredible conversation was the power of emotional
[01:12:04.520 -> 01:12:05.400] literacy, just
[01:12:05.400 -> 01:12:10.800] leaning into emotions, whether that's good or bad emotions and learning rather
[01:12:10.800 -> 01:12:15.360] than let them wash over you, sometimes and stay with them and explore them. You
[01:12:15.360 -> 01:12:21.080] know, so many of our guests, I think of the conversation we had way back with
[01:12:21.080 -> 01:12:25.240] Stephen Gerrard when he spoke around the emotions of that moment
[01:12:25.240 -> 01:12:29.680] when he got sent off against Manchester United after 40 seconds and he said to
[01:12:29.680 -> 01:12:33.640] us that if somebody would have just said to him how are you feeling, how are you
[01:12:33.640 -> 01:12:38.040] really feeling and he'd have felt safe and had the language to be able to
[01:12:38.040 -> 01:12:43.720] articulate his disappointment, his frustration, his anger and explore all
[01:12:43.720 -> 01:12:45.260] of those rather than let it manifest
[01:12:45.260 -> 01:12:50.240] itself in such an explosive way. He could have been even better and I think we can
[01:12:50.240 -> 01:12:55.000] all be even better if we can learn to lean into these emotions and understand
[01:12:55.000 -> 01:12:59.200] and articulate them rather than sometimes deny the more uncomfortable ones.
[01:12:59.200 -> 01:13:03.760] Even just the idea he spoke about just sitting around as a family and saying
[01:13:03.760 -> 01:13:05.920] what's around the corner for me?
[01:13:05.920 -> 01:13:11.160] Like what am I holding on to at the moment? What is derailing me? What does tomorrow look
[01:13:11.160 -> 01:13:16.000] like? What's the future feel like? What am I feeling like? And just do it as a family,
[01:13:16.000 -> 01:13:22.200] as a group. Like the simplest thing that takes maybe five minutes a week, but done every
[01:13:22.200 -> 01:13:26.440] week, it would not just transform a family, but it
[01:13:24.440 -> 01:13:28.640] could genuinely transform society. It
[01:13:26.440 -> 01:13:30.640] would just change the way we feel, in the
[01:13:28.640 -> 01:13:33.720] way that we interact with each other. Yeah,
[01:13:30.640 -> 01:13:35.280] you know, again, the best time to fix a
[01:13:33.720 -> 01:13:37.960] roof is when the sun is shining. So
[01:13:35.280 -> 01:13:41.280] rather than wait for it, these emotions
[01:13:37.960 -> 01:13:43.000] to explode in anger or recrimination, that
[01:13:41.280 -> 01:13:45.200] question of, what have I done that's
[01:13:43.000 -> 01:13:45.200] annoyed you recently, and put yourself in
[01:13:45.200 -> 01:13:49.280] a position to really listen to it is a really incredible way to fix a
[01:13:49.280 -> 01:13:53.680] relationship or to make sure that you stay on track rather than ignore it and
[01:13:53.680 -> 01:13:59.980] hope that it disappears or fix itself naturally. So I think that willingness to
[01:13:59.980 -> 01:14:04.840] go and explore and lean into emotions is what Alan's teaching us there that can
[01:14:04.840 -> 01:14:05.000] be revolutionary for myself and hopefully many other people. Would you be go and explore and lean into emotions is what Alan's teaching us there that can be
[01:14:05.000 -> 01:14:09.400] revolutionary for myself and hopefully many other people. Would you be brave
[01:14:09.400 -> 01:14:12.880] enough to ask Geraldine what you've done that's annoyed her recently or would you
[01:14:12.880 -> 01:14:18.200] be concerned the answer would go on for so long? Yeah well I sometimes think
[01:14:18.200 -> 01:14:22.960] about like, I remember a conversation with Geraldine once when I came home and
[01:14:22.960 -> 01:14:25.800] she said is this how
[01:14:24.160 -> 01:14:28.920] you thought married life was going to be?
[01:14:25.800 -> 01:14:31.640] And it was like, you obviously don't so
[01:14:28.920 -> 01:14:33.080] I'll let you go first. And she opened up
[01:14:31.640 -> 01:14:35.320] with some of the things that I was doing
[01:14:33.080 -> 01:14:38.480] that I thought I was working away a lot,
[01:14:35.320 -> 01:14:40.920] I wasn't around as much and to her it
[01:14:38.480 -> 01:14:43.160] was a frustration that she needed to be
[01:14:40.920 -> 01:14:45.080] able to give me that feedback. And I remember
[01:14:43.160 -> 01:14:45.720] thinking it was
[01:14:43.960 -> 01:14:48.040] a really elegant way in which she's
[01:14:45.720 -> 01:14:50.440] chose to open it by, rather than
[01:14:48.040 -> 01:14:52.320] attacking me, just asking me what I thought
[01:14:50.440 -> 01:14:54.960] married life was going to be and whether
[01:14:52.320 -> 01:14:57.520] I was acting in accordance to it. So
[01:14:54.960 -> 01:15:00.680] yeah, I think I will go back to that and
[01:14:57.520 -> 01:15:03.920] invite it. I'm not sure I like the
[01:15:00.680 -> 01:15:06.160] answers but as Alan said, it's unless
[01:15:03.920 -> 01:15:05.560] we explore these these we don't
[01:15:05.560 -> 01:15:08.400] actually get chance to live a fulfilled life.
[01:15:08.400 -> 01:15:11.920] Well I enjoyed it and I know I'll take a lot away from it, I know you will as well and
[01:15:11.920 -> 01:15:14.880] actually one of the really nice things is that I think that everyone that's
[01:15:14.880 -> 01:15:20.400] listened to it will take something very different. It's not a clear
[01:15:20.400 -> 01:15:25.580] manifest to do this and life will change. So many small nuanced
[01:15:25.580 -> 01:15:29.500] topics were covered there that people can pick up on a tiny thing that was
[01:15:29.500 -> 01:15:34.180] said by Alan who I really loved by the way and they can just explore that as
[01:15:34.180 -> 01:15:37.860] deeply as they want in their own life. Yeah to me it's like a kaleidoscope
[01:15:37.860 -> 01:15:41.380] where you look at it and you can see any pattern that you wouldn't I think
[01:15:41.380 -> 01:15:45.840] listen to it with an open mind and I'm sure you'll take away something
[01:15:45.840 -> 01:15:47.680] that makes sense for you in your life.
[01:15:47.680 -> 01:15:49.560] Incredible author, fascinating guy.
[01:15:49.560 -> 01:15:50.400] Thanks, mate.
[01:15:53.080 -> 01:15:53.920] Well, that's it.
[01:15:53.920 -> 01:15:56.120] Listen, don't forget to share this episode with someone.
[01:15:56.120 -> 01:15:58.360] I think people need to hear the kinds of messages
[01:15:58.360 -> 01:16:01.360] that Alaa is sharing, so please just send this to someone
[01:16:01.360 -> 01:16:02.720] that you think would benefit from it.
[01:16:02.720 -> 01:16:06.000] You can also watch on YouTube, you can join our book club,
[01:16:06.000 -> 01:16:07.840] you can download the High Performance app.
[01:16:07.840 -> 01:16:11.200] There are so many ways to keep your journey going with high performance.
[01:16:11.200 -> 01:16:14.160] But honestly, thank you so much for coming.
[01:16:14.160 -> 01:16:20.240] Just remember to stay humble, curious, and find your own version of high performance.
[01:16:20.240 -> 01:16:50.760] Thanks for listening. These days, every new potential hire can feel like a high-stakes wager for your small business.
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[01:17:03.840 -> 01:17:08.080] Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash hard work.
[01:17:08.080 -> 01:17:11.560] That's LinkedIn.com slash hard work.
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