Ben Waterhouse and Craig Skinner: the secrets behind the Team’s performance and design

Nicola Hume speaks to Head of Performance Engineering, Ben Waterhouse and Chief Designer, Craig Skinner on The Official Oracle Red Bull Racing Podcast, brought to you by HP Poly – delivering exclusive unrivalled access to the Team.

In this episode, Ben and Craig lift the lid on how they work everyday to improve the Team’s performance. They share what life is like in Milton Keynes, and the subtle differences between what the performance team do and what the design team do.

Also, they each bring an item to enter in our 'Oracle Red Bull Racing in 100 Objects' hall of fame, they answer a stack of your fan questions, plus we have a little game for them courtesy of HP Poly.

# Talking Ball: A Conversation with Ben Waterhouse and Craig Skinner

In this episode of the Talking Ball podcast, host Nicola Hume engages in a captivating discussion with Ben Waterhouse, Head of Performance Engineering, and Craig Skinner, Chief Designer at Oracle Red Bull Racing. They delve into the intricate world of Formula One racing, shedding light on their roles, the challenges they face, and the strategies they employ to maintain the team's winning streak.

**Key Insights:**

1. **Performance Engineering:**
- Ben Waterhouse leads a team that optimizes car performance for short-term race weekends, in-season developments, and long-term goals, including the upcoming 2026 regulation changes.

2. **Balancing Risk and Reward:**
- The team carefully evaluates risk versus reward when making decisions, considering factors such as car performance, driver safety, and reliability.

3. **Collaboration between Design and Performance Teams:**
- Craig Skinner, formerly a CFD engineer, transitioned to the design office to bridge the gap between aerodynamic aspirations and practical engineering solutions.

4. **Constant Innovation and Improvement:**
- Both Waterhouse and Skinner emphasize the relentless pursuit of performance gains, even in championship-winning cars, driven by the understanding that competitors are always pushing boundaries.

5. **Handling Pressure and Making Tough Decisions:**
- Waterhouse and Skinner acknowledge the pressure to deliver results but maintain open and honest conversations to find common ground and make the best decisions for the team.

6. **Importance of Data-Driven Decision-Making:**
- Simulation tools play a crucial role in evaluating performance and making informed choices, balancing the input from aerodynamicists, performance engineers, and stress engineers.

7. **The Art of Compromise:**
- The design process involves constant negotiation and compromise to reconcile the often-conflicting demands of different engineering disciplines.

8. **Learning from Failures:**
- Both experts agree that failures are valuable learning opportunities, leading to significant advancements and a higher chance of positive steps in the future.

9. **Focus on Continuous Improvement:**
- The team remains focused on incremental improvements rather than drastic changes, recognizing that small gains accumulate to make a substantial difference.

10. **Adapting to Changing Regulations:**
- The team is actively preparing for the 2026 regulation changes, particularly in the power unit area, while balancing current performance demands.


**From Exhaust Innovations to Revolutionary Designs**

Craig Skinner, with his expertise in aerodynamics, shares a remarkable story about an exhaust innovation that unlocked a significant performance boost for Red Bull Racing. This modification, initially dubbed with a humorous nickname, proved to be a game-changer, adding substantial speed and earning a place in the Hall of Fame of Red Bull's accomplishments.

Ben Waterhouse, on the other hand, takes us back to his early days at Red Bull, working on the RB1, his first Formula One car project. He reflects on the eye-opening experience of witnessing the entire process from start to finish, solidifying his passion for vehicle dynamics and steering his career toward defining suspension characteristics.

**Navigating the Challenges of Design and Engineering**

The discussion delves into the complexities of Formula One design and engineering, with both experts highlighting the challenges they face. Skinner emphasizes the importance of understanding the problem at hand before employing AI, as it requires teaching the system what to look for. Waterhouse, on the other hand, grapples with managing a large team, ensuring that everyone is aligned and working towards the same goal.

**The Art of Balancing Performance and Aesthetics**

When asked about the interplay between design and aesthetics, both experts agree that performance takes precedence over looks. They assert that if a component improves the car's speed, it will be incorporated, regardless of its appearance. The best-looking car, in their view, is the one that is the fastest.

**The Importance of Driver Feedback**

The role of driver feedback in the performance engineering process is also explored. Waterhouse emphasizes the crucial marriage between the vehicle and the driver, highlighting the need for compatibility and confidence in the car. He explains how driver characteristics and driving styles influence setup adjustments, ensuring that the car aligns with the driver's needs.

**Choosing Red Bull: A Journey of Passion and Expertise**

Skinner and Waterhouse share their reasons for choosing Red Bull as their professional home. Skinner was drawn to the opportunity to work with Adrian Newey, a legendary figure in Formula One design. Waterhouse, having worked with Toro Rosso, Red Bull's junior team, was eager to return to the organization due to its strong reputation and unique team dynamics.

**The HP Poly Challenge: A Test of Recognition**

The episode concludes with a fun challenge presented by HP Poly, Red Bull's partner in video and voice solutions. The challenge involves identifying four voices from a montage of Red Bull personnel. Despite their initial struggles, the experts eventually manage to correctly identify Checo, Mark Webber, Vittantonio Liuzzi, and Paul Moynihan.

[00:00.000 -> 00:02.680] Hello and welcome to Talking Ball brought to you by HP Poly.
[00:02.680 -> 00:05.280] I'm Nicola Hulme. We are here in Milton Keynes
[00:05.480 -> 00:07.640] talking all things Oracle Red Bull Racing.
[00:07.640 -> 00:11.440] Now, today we are joined by two men who play a huge role
[00:11.440 -> 00:14.360] making sure that the team performs to the peak of its powers.
[00:14.640 -> 00:17.400] So first of all, we have the head of performance engineering.
[00:17.400 -> 00:20.680] It's Ben Waterhouse and chief designer Craig Skinner.
[00:20.680 -> 00:22.280] Guys, welcome. Thank you very much.
[00:27.040 -> 00:27.880] Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having us.
[00:27.880 -> 00:31.640] Are you in the middle of a really busy day and I've just taken you away from your day?
[00:31.640 -> 00:32.840] Every day is a busy day.
[00:32.840 -> 00:34.600] It doesn't stop unfortunately.
[00:34.600 -> 00:36.920] I want to start with you Ben actually.
[00:36.920 -> 00:38.600] You've been here for quite a while,
[00:38.600 -> 00:40.720] haven't you, here at Red Bull? When did you first start?
[00:40.720 -> 00:44.160] The first time I started actually was back in 2003.
[00:44.160 -> 00:45.000] So it was actually before Red Bull.
[00:45.000 -> 00:45.800] When it was Jaguar.
[00:45.800 -> 00:46.400] When it was Jaguar.
[00:46.400 -> 00:47.000] Yeah.
[00:47.000 -> 00:51.200] And I stayed here until 2008.
[00:51.200 -> 00:54.800] Had a small hiatus when I went to Europe for nine years.
[00:54.800 -> 00:58.200] And then I came back in 2017 and then I've been here since then.
[00:58.200 -> 01:00.200] It's okay, we could talk about the time you went away.
[01:00.200 -> 01:03.400] You went and joined BMW and Toro Rosso, right?
[01:03.400 -> 01:03.800] Yeah.
[01:03.800 -> 01:07.440] So how was your experience with them
[01:07.440 -> 01:08.680] versus being back here at Red Bull?
[01:08.680 -> 01:11.720] Obviously something kind of enticed you to come back again.
[01:11.720 -> 01:14.240] Yeah, I always enjoyed my time at Red Bull
[01:14.240 -> 01:17.000] and I think the attraction to going to Switzerland
[01:17.000 -> 01:19.120] in the first place was just that, you know,
[01:19.120 -> 01:20.920] myself and my wife hadn't traveled so much
[01:20.920 -> 01:22.320] and the opportunity to go to Switzerland
[01:22.320 -> 01:23.800] seemed too good to be true.
[01:23.800 -> 01:26.320] And we really liked snowboarding, mountain biking,
[01:26.320 -> 01:28.340] all the other attractions of Switzerland.
[01:28.340 -> 01:31.460] And then ultimately, the lure of coming back to the UK
[01:31.460 -> 01:34.340] was too strong and then I wanted to come back to Red Bull.
[01:34.340 -> 01:38.040] But you were here before Christian Horner even joined.
[01:38.040 -> 01:43.000] So how was that, having this young principal take over,
[01:43.000 -> 01:44.400] I mean, he was 31 at the time,
[01:44.400 -> 01:45.360] what was that like when he joined? How much did it change? It was exciting over, I mean he was 31 at the time, what was that like
[01:45.360 -> 01:47.400] when he joined? How much did it change?
[01:47.400 -> 01:51.680] It was exciting because I mean Jaguar had been progressing but it was very, very slow
[01:51.680 -> 01:55.060] and then when Red Bull took over the team there was a huge amount of excitement that
[01:55.060 -> 01:58.640] something is going to change, it's going to be better. Obviously Christian arrived
[01:58.640 -> 02:03.160] and that's when there was a sea change in attitude across the team. The view was to
[02:03.160 -> 02:05.360] say we're not here just to participate,
[02:05.360 -> 02:06.640] we are here to win.
[02:06.640 -> 02:10.720] And then of course Adrian joined and then things really started to take off.
[02:10.720 -> 02:13.040] So yeah, it was a really exciting time.
[02:13.040 -> 02:14.040] And then you left.
[02:14.040 -> 02:15.040] Yes.
[02:15.040 -> 02:18.040] For entirely selfish reasons.
[02:18.040 -> 02:19.040] And then you left.
[02:19.040 -> 02:22.640] But you were gone for when there were championships being won here.
[02:22.640 -> 02:24.880] You missed out on 2010 to 2013.
[02:24.880 -> 02:25.720] You missed out. It was 2013. You missed out.
[02:25.720 -> 02:27.040] It was pretty galling at the time,
[02:27.040 -> 02:30.520] especially as BMW had been going in a positive way.
[02:30.520 -> 02:32.080] And of course they pulled out and it's like,
[02:32.080 -> 02:33.720] well, what am I doing?
[02:33.720 -> 02:36.080] And I did actually speak to Adrian about coming back,
[02:36.080 -> 02:38.520] but I enjoyed the snowboarding,
[02:38.520 -> 02:40.800] the other aspects of Switzerland.
[02:40.800 -> 02:42.840] You know, tax, I think was 10% at the time.
[02:42.840 -> 02:45.000] So there were some nice attractions.
[02:45.000 -> 02:48.200] And so we chose to stay out there for a while
[02:48.200 -> 02:50.400] and it was a good decision for us at the time,
[02:50.400 -> 02:54.000] but you know, the attraction and the lore was still strong.
[02:54.000 -> 02:56.440] So eventually you came back in 2017,
[02:56.440 -> 03:00.660] and now, I mean, Red Bull on fire at the moment,
[03:00.660 -> 03:02.280] just kind of winning everything.
[03:02.280 -> 03:04.520] So how does it feel to actually experience
[03:04.520 -> 03:05.680] a winning situation?
[03:05.880 -> 03:07.760] It's really good.
[03:07.760 -> 03:12.840] I mean, the first time that I experienced a sort of a race win was at BMW,
[03:12.840 -> 03:14.000] but that was a one-off.
[03:14.000 -> 03:15.520] It's quite fortuitous.
[03:15.520 -> 03:18.560] And then since I've been back at Red Bull, we've won every year,
[03:18.560 -> 03:21.320] but we've been very much building to try and get to this position
[03:21.600 -> 03:24.240] because I missed that period from 2010 to 13.
[03:24.640 -> 03:27.720] And I think now that we've actually managed
[03:27.720 -> 03:30.720] to achieve it already in 21 and then into 22,
[03:30.720 -> 03:34.400] it's a fantastic feeling, but we know it's not forever
[03:34.400 -> 03:37.000] and we have to keep pushing very hard to maintain it.
[03:37.000 -> 03:39.040] Competition is very, very tough
[03:39.040 -> 03:40.680] and they're coming back very quickly.
[03:40.680 -> 03:41.520] Well, here's the thing.
[03:41.520 -> 03:43.120] I mean, we have to talk about your job.
[03:43.120 -> 03:47.000] So you are a performance engineer, but what is that?
[03:47.000 -> 03:49.000] It's kind of like a catch-all term, isn't it?
[03:49.000 -> 03:51.000] So what is your day-to-day?
[03:51.000 -> 03:54.000] What do you actually do in terms of performance engineering?
[03:54.000 -> 03:58.000] So I lead quite a… it's not a huge group, but it's a decent-sized group
[03:58.000 -> 04:00.000] covering lots of different disciplines.
[04:00.000 -> 04:04.000] And our focus is to really optimise the performance of the car
[04:04.000 -> 04:07.000] on a short-term, medium, medium term and long term basis.
[04:07.000 -> 04:13.000] Short term is more about race weekends, can we get the optimum out of the car for next race,
[04:13.000 -> 04:18.000] but then beyond that we're looking at in-season developments, how can we improve the usage of the tyre,
[04:18.000 -> 04:25.000] the usage of the aerodynamic characteristic, and then longer term we're looking more at next year, 2025,
[04:25.440 -> 04:28.000] even 2026 now already.
[04:28.000 -> 04:30.300] And so I have lots of different,
[04:30.300 -> 04:32.260] very skilled people within the team,
[04:32.260 -> 04:34.520] and we build all our own tools,
[04:34.520 -> 04:36.500] and it's all about trying to lead them
[04:36.500 -> 04:39.420] in the right direction so that we can deliver
[04:39.420 -> 04:41.700] the performance which we need to achieve on the racetrack.
[04:41.700 -> 04:44.580] Well, so how much prep is currently going into everything
[04:44.580 -> 04:45.760] for 2026?
[04:45.760 -> 04:47.520] Because it's all big regulation changes,
[04:47.520 -> 04:50.160] like how hands-on can you get with that at the moment
[04:50.160 -> 04:52.200] without knowing as much detail?
[04:52.200 -> 04:55.120] So we're working on the power unit regulations
[04:55.120 -> 04:56.600] because they are quite well defined.
[04:56.600 -> 04:59.920] So there's simulation work that's required for that.
[04:59.920 -> 05:02.400] The chassis regulations are still in discussion
[05:02.400 -> 05:04.520] and we are supporting that with ideas
[05:04.520 -> 05:07.200] and making sure our tools are able to operate
[05:07.200 -> 05:09.800] with those new regulations.
[05:09.800 -> 05:13.360] And so we're focusing some time,
[05:13.360 -> 05:15.340] but of course we have to be careful about balancing
[05:15.340 -> 05:17.520] that time with what we're doing right now.
[05:17.520 -> 05:20.360] So what's your day-to-day here at the factory?
[05:20.360 -> 05:22.280] Because you are based here, right?
[05:22.280 -> 05:23.120] That's right.
[05:23.120 -> 05:24.000] So what's your kind of,
[05:24.000 -> 05:25.000] I guess every day is different for you, is it?
[05:25.000 -> 05:27.000] Yeah, no two days are the same.
[05:27.000 -> 05:30.000] We always have drivers in the simulator,
[05:30.000 -> 05:33.000] we have meetings and talking about new car developments,
[05:33.000 -> 05:36.000] we have issues which are based on the previous race weekend,
[05:36.000 -> 05:37.000] what can we do to improve that,
[05:37.000 -> 05:40.000] what can we do to make sure it doesn't happen again?
[05:40.000 -> 05:42.000] So it's always very dynamic,
[05:42.000 -> 05:44.000] something different is happening every day.
[05:44.000 -> 05:46.560] So as we are recording this, we are building up to a race weekend, so how different is this week compared to a regular week Felly mae'n byw yn fawr dynamig, mae peth gwahanol yn digwydd bob dydd. Felly, fel y gwnaethom ni recordio hyn, rydyn ni'n adeiladu i weekend o gwmpas.
[05:46.560 -> 05:49.400] Felly, pa mor wahanol yw'r wythnos hon, yn ymwneud ag weithdai arall
[05:49.400 -> 05:50.680] lle nad oes weithdai o gwmpas?
[05:52.080 -> 05:54.240] Mae'n byw yn fawr o ddod o'r ffordd,
[05:54.240 -> 05:55.600] wrth i ni adeiladu i'w ffwrdd.
[05:55.600 -> 05:57.160] Yn ystod y canlyniadau simulatio,
[05:57.160 -> 05:59.920] rydyn ni'n gwneud penderfyniadau o ran penderfyniadau set-up.
[05:59.920 -> 06:01.640] Roeddem yn gweithio gyda Maxon yn ystod y wythnos
[06:01.640 -> 06:04.120] i wneud gwaith set-up yn y simulator.
[06:04.120 -> 06:06.560] Ac yna byddwn ni'n mynd i'r the simulator, and then we'll move towards pre-event discussions
[06:06.560 -> 06:08.400] so that everyone's on the same page.
[06:08.400 -> 06:11.080] They know what test items are being planned,
[06:11.080 -> 06:13.580] what do we need to make sure we're analyzing on Friday,
[06:13.580 -> 06:15.800] and then we'll make decisions through the weekend,
[06:15.800 -> 06:18.000] all with a view to saying we can make the right choice
[06:18.000 -> 06:20.960] in terms of tires, setup, strategic decisions
[06:20.960 -> 06:22.600] during the race, and then hopefully
[06:22.600 -> 06:24.120] we'll get the result on Sunday.
[06:24.120 -> 06:27.480] I mean, obviously, when it comes to creative performance
[06:27.480 -> 06:29.780] it's mainly about speed,
[06:29.780 -> 06:33.160] but also about safety and reliability.
[06:33.160 -> 06:35.400] So how do you kind of level out
[06:35.400 -> 06:37.800] which is the most important thing?
[06:37.800 -> 06:39.360] Craig looks after most of those things.
[06:39.360 -> 06:42.640] He's more, more looks after the safety and the reliability.
[06:42.640 -> 06:45.000] I think from, from our side,
[06:45.000 -> 06:47.440] we're trying to balance that risk versus reward.
[06:47.440 -> 06:50.200] There's aspects we can take a lot of risk on,
[06:50.200 -> 06:52.840] but depending on our attitude to risk,
[06:52.840 -> 06:55.240] which varies on the car performance level,
[06:55.240 -> 06:57.400] we are either more conservative
[06:57.400 -> 06:59.000] or less so in some of our choices.
[06:59.000 -> 07:00.600] I'd love to hear your answer to that as well.
[07:00.600 -> 07:03.600] Yeah, I mean, we always have a duty of care
[07:03.600 -> 07:05.640] towards the driver to look after in the event
[07:05.640 -> 07:06.640] of a crash.
[07:06.640 -> 07:12.080] So there's very strict FIA sort of crash tests, impact tests that we have to pass.
[07:12.080 -> 07:16.720] And we certainly never ever, you know, we always take those incredibly seriously.
[07:16.720 -> 07:18.960] So we always pass the FIA tests fully.
[07:18.960 -> 07:24.080] And in terms of reliability, again, it's always about how far are you prepared to push the
[07:24.080 -> 07:26.280] performance of a component?
[07:26.280 -> 07:27.280] How long is it going to last?
[07:27.280 -> 07:31.720] Because now in the cost cap area, you can't just change parts every single race because
[07:31.720 -> 07:33.280] it costs a lot of money.
[07:33.280 -> 07:37.040] It's that balance between how long is a part going to last versus how much performance
[07:37.040 -> 07:38.040] can it give?
[07:38.040 -> 07:39.680] Yeah, that's a constant balance that we have to evaluate.
[07:39.680 -> 07:41.880] When did you first join Red Bull?
[07:41.880 -> 07:44.600] I joined in January 2006.
[07:44.600 -> 07:47.040] I was about one month before Adrian joined.
[07:47.920 -> 07:51.840] So, and I've, unlike Ben, I've stayed here ever since.
[07:52.880 -> 07:55.760] So yeah, I've been here just over 17 years now.
[07:55.760 -> 07:58.160] And you weren't always part of the design team though, were you?
[07:58.160 -> 08:02.160] No, so I originally joined as a CFD engineer.
[08:02.160 -> 08:04.640] So I did all on the simulation side.
[08:04.640 -> 08:06.400] So I joined in the aerodynamics department
[08:06.400 -> 08:08.680] and I was in the aerodynamics department
[08:08.680 -> 08:12.080] until about the beginning of 2021.
[08:12.080 -> 08:12.920] And I then moved-
[08:12.920 -> 08:13.760] Oh, recently.
[08:13.760 -> 08:16.680] Yes, recently, and then I moved over to the design office
[08:16.680 -> 08:19.400] to as chief designer, to sort of head up that side.
[08:19.400 -> 08:21.720] So what's the difference between the two then?
[08:23.600 -> 08:25.200] To be honest, it's a common goal.
[08:25.200 -> 08:28.600] At the end of the day, you want the fastest race car,
[08:29.000 -> 08:31.100] but you just have to do it in very different ways.
[08:31.100 -> 08:33.600] I mean, aerodynamics, you're always thinking about how can
[08:33.600 -> 08:34.500] you make the car faster?
[08:34.500 -> 08:39.100] What loopholes can you find to push the shape of the car?
[08:39.400 -> 08:41.800] The design office is then responsible for actually making
[08:41.800 -> 08:45.040] it. And often those two things don't always balance up.
[08:45.040 -> 08:48.600] You know, how can we make it light enough, strong enough, things like that.
[08:48.600 -> 08:51.800] And the aerodynamicists will always make things that are far too thin
[08:51.800 -> 08:52.560] that you cannot make.
[08:52.560 -> 08:56.080] So it's that sort of balance and being able to see it from both sides
[08:56.080 -> 08:59.520] has been really useful to then make sure that we sort of bring everybody together
[08:59.520 -> 09:03.040] and sort of end up with a car that's actually fast but also reliable.
[09:03.280 -> 09:03.800] Well, that's the thing.
[09:03.800 -> 09:07.000] It seems like the aero guys are like the dreamers,
[09:07.000 -> 09:09.000] and then the design guys are like, oh, come on.
[09:09.000 -> 09:11.000] Yeah, the realists.
[09:11.000 -> 09:13.000] So you've got to find that bit in the middle.
[09:13.000 -> 09:16.000] Yeah, it's a lot of pressure on you to be able to get all of this stuff
[09:16.000 -> 09:21.000] and put it in this little package that then travels 220 miles an hour.
[09:21.000 -> 09:24.000] Yeah, I mean, it's a hugely complicated bit of engineering,
[09:24.000 -> 09:25.440] with thousands of parts that all must work perfectly all at once. 20 mile an hour. Yeah, I mean, it's a hugely complicated bit of engineering. Yeah.
[09:25.440 -> 09:27.280] With thousands of parts that all must work
[09:27.280 -> 09:29.000] perfectly all at once.
[09:29.000 -> 09:31.680] And so it's about bringing all those sort of groups together
[09:31.680 -> 09:35.400] of suspension, systems, cooling, you know, hydraulics,
[09:35.400 -> 09:37.360] all the stress guys, you know,
[09:37.360 -> 09:39.120] getting all of those working together
[09:39.120 -> 09:41.880] such that everything comes together as one package on track.
[09:41.880 -> 09:44.200] Yeah, and then everything all has to like,
[09:44.200 -> 09:45.200] weigh a certain amount
[09:45.200 -> 09:48.800] at different parts of the car because that's going to change everything. I've got Ben breathing down
[09:48.800 -> 09:52.480] my neck saying we want the car to do this or this and then the aerodynamicist saying we want this.
[09:52.480 -> 09:56.560] So it's about you know everybody's got different requirements that you have to balance. So you two
[09:56.560 -> 10:00.560] kind of communicate with each other quite often then? Yeah it's normally pushing Craig to say we
[10:00.560 -> 10:05.440] want to achieve this, how are you going to find a solution to make it happen? We're a bit like the aerodynamicists.
[10:05.440 -> 10:08.560] So you're the dreamer, he's the naysayer.
[10:08.560 -> 10:11.280] But then we also have the ability with our simulation tools
[10:11.280 -> 10:12.720] to be able to arbitrate and say,
[10:12.720 -> 10:14.580] well, this one's quicker than this one.
[10:14.580 -> 10:16.780] So we can also try and steer it,
[10:16.780 -> 10:17.760] not that we would obviously,
[10:17.760 -> 10:20.080] in the way which we think is the best.
[10:20.080 -> 10:21.760] Yeah, okay.
[10:21.760 -> 10:22.640] But I mean, all the decisions
[10:22.640 -> 10:24.120] are always usually based on data.
[10:24.120 -> 10:26.880] So it's again, if Ben comes up with a simulation, say, look, this,
[10:27.360 -> 10:30.560] this set up or this, whatever I want to do with the suspension is worth this.
[10:30.640 -> 10:33.000] Then it's like, OK, let's find a way to do it.
[10:33.200 -> 10:35.600] How did you both end up where you are now?
[10:35.600 -> 10:39.040] Did you did you go to uni, study engineering or that kind of thing?
[10:39.040 -> 10:40.280] What did you both do?
[10:40.280 -> 10:41.760] So, yeah, I went, I did.
[10:41.760 -> 10:44.520] I studied aeronautical engineering at University of Glasgow.
[10:44.520 -> 10:48.120] And then when I finished university, I tried to, I've always wanted to get into Formula
[10:48.120 -> 10:53.820] One and I tried to get into Formula One, but back when I finished university, Formula One
[10:53.820 -> 10:56.200] teams tended not to do graduate schemes.
[10:56.200 -> 10:57.200] So it was quite difficult.
[10:57.200 -> 10:59.460] People always wanted experience and you didn't have any.
[10:59.460 -> 11:06.920] So I got a job with one of the CFD simulation vendors, and I ended up becoming the technical support engineer
[11:06.920 -> 11:10.280] for Red Bull, Williams, and what was Jordan at the time.
[11:10.280 -> 11:11.120] And then it was through that,
[11:11.120 -> 11:14.120] that I then got a job as a CFD engineer here,
[11:14.120 -> 11:16.200] and then I've just sort of worked my way up since then.
[11:16.200 -> 11:21.200] Well, I heard that you wrote a letter to Adrian Newey.
[11:21.480 -> 11:22.320] That's correct, yeah.
[11:22.320 -> 11:24.920] To ask for advice of how to get into Formula One,
[11:24.920 -> 11:25.000] and he replied, right? When he was at McLaren, yes. Yeah, I've still got the letter. Have you? Adrian Newey to ask for advice of how to get into Formula One.
[11:25.000 -> 11:26.000] And he replied, right?
[11:26.000 -> 11:27.000] When he was at McLaren, yes.
[11:27.000 -> 11:28.000] I've still got the letter.
[11:28.000 -> 11:29.000] Have you?
[11:29.000 -> 11:30.000] Yeah.
[11:30.000 -> 11:31.000] He doesn't remember it at all.
[11:31.000 -> 11:35.880] But yes, no, I wrote a letter to him asking for advice on how to get into Formula One
[11:35.880 -> 11:40.640] and he told about how he'd done aeronautical engineering and how he'd sort of got into
[11:40.640 -> 11:41.640] Formula One.
[11:41.640 -> 11:44.120] So yeah, I sort of tried to follow a similar path.
[11:44.120 -> 11:47.520] So have you come across a moment yet where you've had to say no to him?
[11:48.240 -> 11:49.120] Yes, yes.
[11:49.120 -> 11:50.880] That must feel weird.
[11:50.880 -> 11:54.800] Many occasions, but yes, yeah. But that's the thing, we have quite an open,
[11:54.800 -> 11:57.360] you have to have these open conversations with people to say that things,
[11:58.400 -> 12:00.720] I mean, I've told Ben no as well, but when things don't work.
[12:00.720 -> 12:01.200] Regularly.
[12:01.760 -> 12:06.160] When things don't work or it's not possible, then you have to have these conversations and then
[12:06.160 -> 12:09.040] ultimately you end up finding a common ground and a way forward.
[12:09.040 -> 12:11.440] How about yourself then Ben, how did you end up where you are?
[12:11.440 -> 12:15.040] It's quite similar to Craig in that I always knew I wanted to work in Formula 1
[12:15.040 -> 12:20.240] and sort of your education, university choices. I went to Loughborough, I did automotive
[12:20.240 -> 12:25.380] engineering because I knew I wanted to be on the vehicle dynamics side. I also
[12:25.380 -> 12:29.300] didn't manage to get into Formula One straight away, so I actually worked for Prodrive, which
[12:29.300 -> 12:35.640] was one of the big automotive consultancies that also had British Touring Cars, Subaru
[12:35.640 -> 12:39.860] World Rally Cars at the same time. Then it was actually, I knew somebody here who said
[12:39.860 -> 12:44.060] there's a job coming up, applied, and then I got in here to Jaguar, as it was at the
[12:44.060 -> 12:45.640] time.
[12:45.640 -> 12:50.440] So do you, I mean I know you kind of work together often, but I also hear that you like
[12:50.440 -> 12:53.480] to train in the gym together. Is that right?
[12:53.480 -> 12:54.480] I think-
[12:54.480 -> 12:55.480] There's a very nice gym here, right?
[12:55.480 -> 12:56.480] There's a really lovely gym.
[12:56.480 -> 12:57.480] It's a really lovely gym.
[12:57.480 -> 12:58.480] We're all catered for.
[12:58.480 -> 13:01.680] I think what I see is Craig goes and smashes himself and he'll be completely red-faced
[13:01.680 -> 13:03.640] and I'll be like, no, no, I'm not sure about that today.
[13:03.640 -> 13:05.120] Does it get a little bit competitive
[13:05.120 -> 13:06.120] between the two of you?
[13:06.120 -> 13:06.960] No, no.
[13:06.960 -> 13:07.780] It has in the past.
[13:07.780 -> 13:08.620] It has in the past.
[13:08.620 -> 13:09.800] I know I'll lose.
[13:09.800 -> 13:12.000] I tend to, it's a good stress relief,
[13:12.000 -> 13:13.480] so I tend to, whenever I'm in the gym,
[13:13.480 -> 13:16.080] I was like, yeah, well, I'll go hard, basically.
[13:16.080 -> 13:21.080] So what's your day-to-day like here at the factory then?
[13:21.480 -> 13:24.280] Well, it depends, like if it's just after a race weekend,
[13:24.280 -> 13:26.200] there's often, you have to go through any faults that have been for the weekend, what do we need to fix for the factory then? Well, it depends, like if it's just after a race weekend, there's often, you have to go through any faults
[13:26.200 -> 13:27.040] that have been for the weekend,
[13:27.040 -> 13:29.560] what do we need to fix for the next race?
[13:29.560 -> 13:32.920] And then there's a lot of working on the next upgrades
[13:32.920 -> 13:34.960] for the season, you know, what we're producing
[13:34.960 -> 13:38.400] for upcoming races, we've got update packages coming,
[13:38.400 -> 13:40.760] and then, like Ben, there's a lot of work now
[13:40.760 -> 13:43.280] going into next year's car, so RB20,
[13:43.280 -> 13:45.560] looking at how are we going to lay the car out,
[13:45.560 -> 13:47.400] what do we want to achieve, what does Ben want,
[13:47.400 -> 13:48.760] what do aerodynamics want,
[13:48.760 -> 13:50.120] and then how does that going to affect
[13:50.120 -> 13:50.960] how we lay out the car.
[13:50.960 -> 13:53.120] So there's, yeah, it varies day to day.
[13:53.120 -> 13:54.520] Yeah, I mean, it all sounds a bit bonkers
[13:54.520 -> 13:56.840] because you're kind of, you're preparing for this weekend
[13:56.840 -> 13:58.160] or you're preparing for next year
[13:58.160 -> 13:59.920] or now you're preparing for 2026.
[13:59.920 -> 14:02.680] It's quite a lot to take on, isn't it?
[14:02.680 -> 14:07.360] It is, you've always got to keep looking forward. You've got to pay attention to what you're doing right now,
[14:07.360 -> 14:08.400] because we've got a race coming.
[14:08.400 -> 14:10.920] We've got to aim to do the best we can.
[14:10.920 -> 14:12.360] But then also you've got to make sure
[14:12.360 -> 14:14.160] you're still at the front going forward.
[14:14.160 -> 14:15.600] You can never sit back and think,
[14:15.600 -> 14:18.600] I'll do it next week because somebody else will overtake you.
[14:18.600 -> 14:20.480] I think that's the problem. The job is never done.
[14:20.480 -> 14:22.680] It's something where you can never say it's complete
[14:22.680 -> 14:25.760] and we've finished it and we can just have a rest.
[14:25.760 -> 14:27.480] There's always more performance to be found
[14:27.480 -> 14:28.920] or more weight to be taken out of the car
[14:28.920 -> 14:31.040] or more aerodynamic performance to be found.
[14:31.040 -> 14:33.960] So there's just a constant search to improve.
[14:33.960 -> 14:36.280] So kind of after every race weekend,
[14:36.280 -> 14:37.600] you have celebration.
[14:37.600 -> 14:39.800] From what I heard from Hannah Schmitz when we had her on,
[14:39.800 -> 14:42.600] you have a bit of pizza, celebration, glass of bubbly,
[14:42.600 -> 14:44.320] and then Monday morning, back at it.
[14:44.320 -> 14:47.360] Well, that's it. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, we have a fault after every race,
[14:47.360 -> 14:51.280] there's a fault meeting first thing on a Monday morning. So yes, you have to celebrate the win,
[14:51.280 -> 14:56.080] but then you also have to say, right, what went wrong? What do we need to fix? Because if that
[14:56.080 -> 15:00.240] happens again, then we might, you know, it might be race ending for us.
[15:00.240 -> 15:02.720] How are you finding the atmosphere here in Milton Keynes?
[15:02.720 -> 15:09.000] It's good. It's good. There's a good feeling around the team and we've got lots of new faces arriving with powertrains.
[15:09.000 -> 15:12.000] We now have a big campus, there's a lot of people here.
[15:12.000 -> 15:15.000] Everyone's looking super positive about how the car is performing
[15:15.000 -> 15:18.000] and wants to continue and see it maintained.
[15:19.000 -> 15:21.000] Being successful definitely helps,
[15:21.000 -> 15:25.000] but I think what you have to remember is that we've not always been here.
[15:25.000 -> 15:27.000] There's been times when other teams have been winning everything.
[15:27.000 -> 15:31.000] So you've got to keep that in the back of your mind that you have to always just keep pushing forward.
[15:31.000 -> 15:37.000] So how would you compare this atmosphere at Red Bull compared to how it was when it was Jaguar?
[15:37.000 -> 15:45.920] It's very different. I mean, in Jaguar times, it was all about the process.
[15:45.920 -> 15:47.920] It was, I guess it was a relic of Ford.
[15:47.920 -> 15:49.800] Everything was, there had to be a number
[15:49.800 -> 15:52.460] to define everything in a spreadsheet that went with it
[15:52.460 -> 15:55.560] and just follow the process and the performance will come.
[15:55.560 -> 15:57.240] It just wasn't coming quick enough.
[15:57.240 -> 16:00.020] And whereas now I think we live a lot more,
[16:00.020 -> 16:03.040] we put a lot of process in, but we also are creative
[16:03.040 -> 16:05.960] and have freedom to be able to diverge from that
[16:05.960 -> 16:08.360] when required, because it doesn't matter ultimately
[16:08.360 -> 16:09.640] how you achieve the outcome,
[16:09.640 -> 16:10.880] but you have to achieve the outcome,
[16:10.880 -> 16:13.100] which is a fast car, and achieve the performance.
[16:13.100 -> 16:16.760] So that's our aim, and we're more open to different ideas,
[16:16.760 -> 16:18.880] I think, than how it was in the past.
[16:18.880 -> 16:22.260] So on a previous episode, we were chatting to Anna Groom,
[16:22.260 -> 16:26.080] who works in aerodynamics, and she was showing us a part of the car
[16:26.080 -> 16:27.800] that she used in the wind tunnel.
[16:27.800 -> 16:29.560] And it was interesting to find that,
[16:29.560 -> 16:31.040] like the smallest little detail
[16:31.040 -> 16:32.800] of moving something just a centimeter
[16:32.800 -> 16:34.160] would make such a massive difference
[16:34.160 -> 16:35.600] to the airflow in the car.
[16:35.600 -> 16:39.600] And that's the case with every single part within a car.
[16:39.600 -> 16:40.440] Right?
[16:40.440 -> 16:43.200] So how much trial and error,
[16:43.200 -> 16:45.080] like how many failures do you have to have
[16:45.080 -> 16:46.120] until you've absolutely nailed it?
[16:46.120 -> 16:48.720] I mean, at the moment, this year has just been amazing,
[16:48.720 -> 16:50.880] but people don't see the buildup
[16:50.880 -> 16:53.160] and the failures to get to this point, right?
[16:53.160 -> 16:54.000] Well, I think it's also the key
[16:54.000 -> 16:55.720] is to minimize the failures.
[16:55.720 -> 16:58.960] So it's about understanding what you're doing
[16:58.960 -> 17:00.840] and trying to make those incremental steps.
[17:00.840 -> 17:02.640] You're always going in the right direction.
[17:02.640 -> 17:04.720] Yes, you'll sort of go off in the wrong direction
[17:04.720 -> 17:05.160] a few times,
[17:05.160 -> 17:06.440] but it's about minimising those.
[17:06.440 -> 17:09.480] Because if you just scattergun ideas, then you will,
[17:09.480 -> 17:11.680] you'll have, you know, your hit rate will be quite low.
[17:11.680 -> 17:15.200] So it's especially in the cost cap era and we're budget limited,
[17:15.200 -> 17:18.680] you have to make sure that your hit rate for performance gains
[17:18.680 -> 17:19.760] is really, really high.
[17:19.760 -> 17:21.520] And that's about making sure you've got the tools
[17:21.520 -> 17:23.960] and the people in place to always make sure you're
[17:23.960 -> 17:27.520] making the right decision. We have to have the understanding it's mostly about if we have the
[17:27.520 -> 17:32.000] understanding and as Craig says we can at least make sure that the next step is going to be in
[17:32.000 -> 17:37.120] the right direction and it may deviate but you can the more you understand the higher the percentage
[17:37.120 -> 17:41.360] chance that you make a positive step. I think the the interesting thing is the times when you
[17:41.360 -> 17:45.720] really learn is when you get it wrong and we we've done that in the past. You make the big failures
[17:45.720 -> 17:47.920] and you have something go drastically wrong,
[17:47.920 -> 17:49.720] you delve into it into far more detail,
[17:49.720 -> 17:52.720] but what you learn from doing that is really rewarding
[17:52.720 -> 17:53.640] and then you can apply it
[17:53.640 -> 17:55.720] and it helps you to jump forward in the future.
[17:55.720 -> 17:59.680] I mean, it's so interesting to see each race weekend
[17:59.680 -> 18:04.360] and you're watching, I mean, Max winning a race by 23 seconds
[18:04.360 -> 18:05.760] and you're seeing the pundits go,
[18:05.760 -> 18:10.480] what are Red Bull doing that all the other teams aren't doing?
[18:10.480 -> 18:13.120] What are you doing that all the other teams aren't doing?
[18:13.120 -> 18:14.960] Because whatever you're doing, it's right.
[18:14.960 -> 18:17.920] We genuinely don't know, because all we do,
[18:17.920 -> 18:19.120] we're just focusing on ourselves.
[18:19.120 -> 18:22.400] We can't worry about what other people are doing or not doing.
[18:22.400 -> 18:24.640] We can only just do the best that we can.
[18:24.640 -> 18:27.080] And we just focus every day and every week
[18:27.080 -> 18:29.440] on making ourselves better.
[18:29.440 -> 18:32.840] And as Ben said earlier, we are never, ever done.
[18:32.840 -> 18:35.240] Even when RB18, we won the championship,
[18:35.240 -> 18:37.000] you know, we'd won loads of races.
[18:37.000 -> 18:38.320] Even at the end, we sat down and said,
[18:38.320 -> 18:41.200] right, what's wrong with this car?
[18:41.200 -> 18:42.760] What do we need to do to make better?
[18:42.760 -> 18:45.720] What did the drivers want out of this car to go faster?
[18:45.720 -> 18:47.480] And then we implemented that in RB19.
[18:47.480 -> 18:50.520] So yeah, it's just this constant progression.
[18:50.520 -> 18:53.360] So even with a car that is championship winning,
[18:53.360 -> 18:55.480] you're finding things wrong with it to fix?
[18:55.480 -> 18:56.440] Yeah.
[18:56.440 -> 18:57.260] That's crazy.
[18:57.260 -> 18:59.040] It's one continuous optimization problem.
[18:59.040 -> 19:01.720] There's always scope to improve it a little bit here,
[19:01.720 -> 19:02.760] a little bit there.
[19:02.760 -> 19:03.600] I think as Craig said,
[19:03.600 -> 19:06.240] it's the summation of thousands of small
[19:06.240 -> 19:09.200] improvements, which just lead to incremental gains.
[19:09.280 -> 19:11.960] And then RB19 is that much quicker than RB18.
[19:12.480 -> 19:15.920] And I hope RB20 is another step forward over RB19.
[19:16.000 -> 19:17.720] That's what, yeah, that's what I was wondering.
[19:17.720 -> 19:19.440] I mean, how are you feeling about next year?
[19:19.440 -> 19:20.680] Can you improve?
[19:20.680 -> 19:23.160] Can you get faster and better?
[19:23.160 -> 19:24.240] Well, we certainly hope so.
[19:24.240 -> 19:24.600] Yeah.
[19:24.600 -> 19:26.440] The big question is, what is everyone else going to
[19:26.440 -> 19:30.440] do? Because everyone else might make bigger jumps than we have. So you always just need
[19:30.440 -> 19:35.200] to make sure that you're as far ahead as you can, but you never know.
[19:35.200 -> 19:39.260] It's a relative competition at the end. All the cars are fast. It doesn't matter how fast
[19:39.260 -> 19:42.680] we are. If somebody else has made a faster car, we're not fast enough.
[19:42.680 -> 19:47.080] I also have to ask, because you see it like races like Monaco,
[19:47.080 -> 19:49.040] where the car got lifted off by the crane
[19:49.040 -> 19:50.960] and then everyone's having a good old sneak peek
[19:50.960 -> 19:51.960] at the floor.
[19:51.960 -> 19:54.320] Do things like that worry you at all?
[19:54.320 -> 19:56.040] People having a little sneak peek at your car
[19:56.040 -> 19:57.920] and seeing if they can copy what you're doing?
[19:57.920 -> 20:01.160] They've probably seen pictures of our car already.
[20:01.160 -> 20:02.960] I mean, most teams have photographers
[20:02.960 -> 20:04.160] up and down the pit lane,
[20:04.160 -> 20:10.760] taking pictures of the competition. And they're going to see at some point whether they can recreate
[20:10.760 -> 20:16.680] it is a separate issue. And it's not just the floor, you know, that adds the performance
[20:16.680 -> 20:20.920] to the car, it's the entire package of the car. And unless you've got the whole thing,
[20:20.920 -> 20:23.480] then yeah, you might not, you might not be able to reproduce it.
[20:23.480 -> 20:25.920] So, I mean, there must've been a few moments, maybe a few years ago,
[20:25.920 -> 20:28.040] when it was a bit more Mercedes dominance,
[20:28.040 -> 20:29.640] where you would kind of just have a little look
[20:29.640 -> 20:30.480] at what they're doing.
[20:30.480 -> 20:32.800] Yeah, I mean, you're always looking at competitors
[20:32.800 -> 20:36.000] and you get ideas from cars up and down the grid,
[20:36.000 -> 20:37.240] from the front to the back of the grid.
[20:37.240 -> 20:38.280] There's always ideas.
[20:39.280 -> 20:40.200] I think we always need to think
[20:40.200 -> 20:41.920] that we've not done the best job,
[20:41.920 -> 20:43.520] so other people will have good ideas.
[20:43.520 -> 20:49.920] And if we can take those and add them to our car, then that's a good thing. Talking Ball is brought to you by HP Poly. Poly
[20:49.920 -> 20:54.960] provide best-in-class communications hardware solutions for the Oracle Red Bull Racing team,
[20:54.960 -> 21:00.880] both at the track and back at the factory. Their premium audio and video products allow the team
[21:00.880 -> 21:05.280] to focus on what they do best, winning world championships.
[21:05.600 -> 21:09.920] To find out more about what Poly can offer your business, visit their website at poly.com.
[21:10.160 -> 21:14.480] Ensure you have your best meeting anywhere, anytime, every time.
[21:14.960 -> 21:16.320] Now back to the podcast.
[21:17.120 -> 21:30.320] So here on Talking Ball, we have a thing called 100 objects where every guest is going to come in and bring in something that is significant to their time here at Red Bull. I mean, we've had a lot so far. We've had the Constructor's Trophy,
[21:30.320 -> 21:35.920] we had Adrian Newey brought in his really awesome notebook, and then we had a laptop,
[21:35.920 -> 21:40.000] or just little things that might mean something to you. It could be just a pen or something simple,
[21:40.000 -> 21:49.120] so I'd love to see what you two have brought in. I have to start with you, Craig, because I can't not start with you, because what's that?
[21:51.200 -> 21:56.240] This is the exhaust system from RB8, back in 2012.
[21:57.440 -> 22:01.120] This was a project that I worked on, it was actually a really interesting project at the time,
[22:01.120 -> 22:05.120] and was one of those things that where you, in making big performance
[22:05.120 -> 22:09.280] improvements in Formula One is quite rare, but this was one of them where we actually made sort
[22:09.280 -> 22:15.040] of a giant step overnight. So on RB7, we had the exhausts down in the floor and we used to blow
[22:15.040 -> 22:20.480] the exhaust down to the diffuser and it gave us a lot of downforce. The FIA for 2012 changed the
[22:20.480 -> 22:24.480] regulations and said, right, the exhaust tailpipe, which is this part here, must be above a certain
[22:24.480 -> 22:27.280] height and it must be pointing upwards because they didn't want the
[22:27.280 -> 22:32.160] exhaust being directed into the floor. So what we did was we put a bodywork out the back of the
[22:32.160 -> 22:37.200] exhaust and the idea was you'd get the exhaust flow to stick to the bodywork and then run down
[22:37.840 -> 22:43.440] into the diffuser. But when the car was launched on track, we weren't getting the performance we
[22:43.440 -> 22:51.200] were expecting. And what we actually eventually found out was, every time a cylinder fires in the engine, you get a pressure
[22:51.200 -> 22:56.400] pulse that runs up here. So at the exhaust pipe, you basically got all these pulses firing as the
[22:56.400 -> 23:00.720] exhaust is flowing. And what it was doing was it was picking the exhaust flow up off the bodywork
[23:00.720 -> 23:07.160] and sort of just sending out here. So it wasn't going where we wanted to. So what we ended up doing was we added this to the exhaust,
[23:07.160 -> 23:08.940] which is called a resonator.
[23:08.940 -> 23:11.800] So what happens is the pressure pulses come up the exhaust,
[23:11.800 -> 23:13.880] they run up this tube, bounce back,
[23:13.880 -> 23:16.380] and then cancel out the next pressure pulses
[23:16.380 -> 23:17.800] coming out of the exhaust.
[23:17.800 -> 23:19.600] So what you actually end up with,
[23:19.600 -> 23:20.800] rather than this pulsing flow,
[23:20.800 -> 23:22.680] you end up with a steady state flow.
[23:22.680 -> 23:25.320] And instead, it's sort of more constant, less transient.
[23:25.320 -> 23:28.400] And it, then it stuck to the bodywork and ran down to the exhaust,
[23:28.400 -> 23:29.520] it ran down to the diffuser.
[23:29.920 -> 23:33.760] So we introduced this at Valencia 2012.
[23:34.080 -> 23:37.600] And it was one of those just moments where I was like, wow, we've got a lot of
[23:37.600 -> 23:38.160] downforce.
[23:38.760 -> 23:42.640] And Sebastian Vettel put the car on pole by half a second.
[23:42.720 -> 23:46.160] And then during the race, he was pulling out one second a lap
[23:46.160 -> 23:47.000] at the beginning of the race,
[23:47.000 -> 23:48.700] until unfortunately the car retired
[23:48.700 -> 23:50.240] with an alternator failure,
[23:50.240 -> 23:51.080] which was on the engine,
[23:51.080 -> 23:52.540] it was a completely separate issue.
[23:52.540 -> 23:54.240] But this was one of those moments
[23:54.240 -> 23:55.520] that then, right, we've actually,
[23:55.520 -> 23:58.120] we've unlocked a huge amount of potential here.
[23:58.120 -> 24:00.520] And then this, we continued to develop this, actually,
[24:00.520 -> 24:01.520] throughout the rest of the season,
[24:01.520 -> 24:02.680] and then onto RB9.
[24:02.680 -> 24:04.540] But this was like one of those moments
[24:04.540 -> 24:05.720] where it was like, right,
[24:06.640 -> 24:08.040] massive performance. And that was all down to that bit?
[24:08.040 -> 24:09.400] That bit added to the exhaust.
[24:09.400 -> 24:10.680] That's incredible.
[24:10.680 -> 24:12.840] And do you feel quite...
[24:12.840 -> 24:14.960] Feel free to feel smug about it. Do you feel smug about it?
[24:14.960 -> 24:15.680] I don't feel smug.
[24:15.680 -> 24:19.360] I feel quite proud because it was a project that was like a lot of people worked on it.
[24:19.360 -> 24:19.640] Yeah.
[24:19.640 -> 24:21.880] And there was a huge amount of performance that came out of it.
[24:21.880 -> 24:24.400] And I think this actual exhaust won Japan
[24:27.320 -> 24:28.320] with Sebastian Vettel in 2012. Amazing!
[24:28.320 -> 24:31.200] So yeah, it's one of those things that I'm really proud that I was involved with.
[24:31.200 -> 24:34.640] And I'm not going to mention the nickname that you told me earlier.
[24:34.640 -> 24:35.640] No, don't.
[24:35.640 -> 24:39.820] So we're going to add that into our Hall of Fame.
[24:39.820 -> 24:40.820] Thank you so much Craig.
[24:40.820 -> 24:42.520] Over to you Ben, what have you brought with you?
[24:42.520 -> 24:45.980] So my story is not quite as exciting as Craig's.
[24:46.840 -> 24:49.740] I mean I obviously arrived here when I was only 23,
[24:49.740 -> 24:52.880] 24 years old, sort of wide eyed, very excited.
[24:52.880 -> 24:56.600] And what I've brought in is the Red Bull Racing RB1,
[24:56.600 -> 24:58.080] which was actually the first Formula One car
[24:58.080 -> 25:00.100] that I worked on from start to finish.
[25:00.100 -> 25:02.860] And my responsibility at the time was very much
[25:02.860 -> 25:05.680] in terms of stressing various components,
[25:05.680 -> 25:11.200] front suspension, rear suspension. And having seen the whole process from start to beginning,
[25:11.200 -> 25:15.200] it was kind of really eye-opening and it confirmed where I wanted to work for the future,
[25:15.200 -> 25:18.880] which ultimately was not stressing components, which is what I did at the time.
[25:18.880 -> 25:23.040] It was more about the vehicle dynamics and actually defining what those suspensions
[25:23.040 -> 25:28.860] should look like rather than being sort of further down the line and realising the components.
[25:28.860 -> 25:33.680] So is that a model that you have at home? Is that your own personal model or is it in
[25:33.680 -> 25:34.680] your office?
[25:34.680 -> 25:38.040] It's not actually... I have one like this, it's just it's in storage because we're moving
[25:38.040 -> 25:39.040] homes at the minute.
[25:39.040 -> 25:40.040] So have you nicked that from somewhere here in the factory?
[25:40.040 -> 25:41.040] I had to procure it, yes.
[25:41.040 -> 25:42.040] Have you nicked it from the gift shop?
[25:42.040 -> 25:45.600] I wish I had, it would have been a lot easier and cost me a lot less.
[25:47.200 -> 25:53.280] So what would you say is the difference between this and the RB19, like to compare the two cars?
[25:53.280 -> 25:56.720] I mean this by comparison, this looks very simple. This is certainly
[25:57.520 -> 26:02.560] before Red Bull made its steps in terms of aerodynamics and the sort of fidelity with
[26:02.560 -> 26:05.440] which we optimise the car. And it looks very
[26:05.440 -> 26:11.760] simple like all old Formula 1 cars do compared to the three-dimensional surfaces that we have now.
[26:11.760 -> 26:18.000] So it looks very agricultural, I'd say. Okay, it's time for Ask Red Bull. So we've got members
[26:18.000 -> 26:22.320] of the Oracle Red Bull Racing Paddock to submit some questions for you. So I'll first through
[26:22.320 -> 26:27.600] actually by video. So over to you. Hello, my name is Janneke and I'm from Germany.
[26:27.600 -> 26:30.200] And my question is, do you use AI
[26:30.200 -> 26:32.720] to generate new ideas for the car?
[26:32.720 -> 26:34.280] Do you use AI?
[26:35.800 -> 26:39.160] It's a field that is being investigated.
[26:40.360 -> 26:43.040] It has its uses, I think.
[26:44.360 -> 26:47.800] Sometimes you can't, with AI you've got to teach it,
[26:47.800 -> 26:49.880] so you need to teach it what it's looking for.
[26:49.880 -> 26:52.360] So ultimately you still need, it comes back to again,
[26:52.360 -> 26:53.880] having the understanding in the first place
[26:53.880 -> 26:55.440] of what you're actually looking for.
[26:55.440 -> 26:58.240] What is it that makes a fast racing car?
[26:58.240 -> 26:59.440] What do you want out of the aero?
[26:59.440 -> 27:01.680] What do you want out of vehicle dynamics?
[27:01.680 -> 27:07.240] So yes, we do use it and we are investigating it, but ultimately
[27:07.240 -> 27:10.720] it all comes down to how much you understand the problem in the first place.
[27:10.720 -> 27:17.800] Hi everyone, my name is Lorena and I am from Mexico City. And my question is, what do you
[27:17.800 -> 27:22.360] consider that is the toughest task in your job?
[27:22.360 -> 27:26.240] What's the toughest task with your jobs? I think that's an easy one.
[27:26.240 -> 27:31.680] It's not the technical aspect, it's undoubtedly the dealing with the
[27:31.680 -> 27:36.260] people and trying to manage some of the situations which can occur. I mean
[27:36.260 -> 27:42.280] everyone is a competitive individual in our environment and they always want
[27:42.280 -> 27:45.600] what is best and of course there's always clashes of opinions
[27:45.600 -> 27:47.960] and trying to manage that in such a way
[27:47.960 -> 27:49.640] that we can get a productive outcome of it
[27:49.640 -> 27:52.840] that hopefully leads to pushing the performance forward
[27:52.840 -> 27:56.240] is probably the most challenging aspect for my side.
[27:56.240 -> 27:57.680] Yeah, I guess sometimes it could be,
[27:57.680 -> 28:00.520] I mean, especially as you're sort of overseeing things,
[28:00.520 -> 28:03.880] it could be a case of too many cooks, too many ideas.
[28:03.880 -> 28:07.120] Let's stand back, just give me one thing if you don't mind.
[28:07.120 -> 28:07.960] Yeah?
[28:07.960 -> 28:08.780] It's a bit of that.
[28:08.780 -> 28:12.160] And just also sometimes just, we're such a big team now.
[28:12.160 -> 28:14.920] I mean, I've got a lot more people in my department
[28:14.920 -> 28:16.920] than Ben and it's a similar thing.
[28:16.920 -> 28:19.200] Everyone's working towards the same goal,
[28:19.200 -> 28:21.720] but just trying to steer that number of people
[28:21.720 -> 28:22.540] in the same direction.
[28:22.540 -> 28:23.800] I mean, how many people in your department?
[28:23.800 -> 28:25.760] So I've got about 120.
[28:25.760 -> 28:27.520] Really? Ben?
[28:28.240 -> 28:29.920] We're more like about 40, 45.
[28:29.920 -> 28:30.560] God, that's easy.
[28:32.960 -> 28:34.160] Right, we've got some more questions here.
[28:34.160 -> 28:36.560] This is from Roman in Slovakia, who says,
[28:36.560 -> 28:39.200] is it difficult to be motivated to push the development
[28:39.760 -> 28:42.160] when you are already at the top with a dominant car?
[28:43.200 -> 28:44.240] Not at all.
[28:44.240 -> 28:47.560] I think it's all of us want to improve
[28:47.560 -> 28:49.080] the performance of the car every day,
[28:49.080 -> 28:50.320] and that's, I think, for my side,
[28:50.320 -> 28:51.680] that's where I get the satisfaction from.
[28:51.680 -> 28:54.380] I've always enjoyed trying to optimize something
[28:54.380 -> 28:56.120] to get more performance out of it,
[28:56.120 -> 28:57.600] and effectively, whether we're winning
[28:57.600 -> 29:00.200] or whether we're not, the process is effectively the same.
[29:00.200 -> 29:02.240] We're always trying to make it quicker,
[29:02.240 -> 29:03.880] and it's just about, like I said before,
[29:03.880 -> 29:06.120] it's more how much risk we're prepared to take,
[29:06.120 -> 29:08.200] depending on where our position is right now.
[29:08.200 -> 29:10.680] This is from Anthony in the Netherlands, who says,
[29:10.680 -> 29:13.640] is it not difficult for a designer to think like an engineer
[29:13.640 -> 29:15.880] and for an engineer to think like a designer?
[29:17.240 -> 29:19.000] I don't think, in our world,
[29:19.000 -> 29:21.160] I don't think there's much difference, to be honest.
[29:21.160 -> 29:23.240] Because we have people called design engineers,
[29:23.240 -> 29:26.000] so for me, they're one and the same.
[29:26.800 -> 29:31.200] That makes sense. This is from Christian in Slovenia, who says,
[29:31.200 -> 29:34.800] can we expect a revolutionary design for the RB20?
[29:35.680 -> 29:41.040] I think it's quite tricky to have revolutionary designs now, mainly because the regulations
[29:41.040 -> 29:46.400] themselves are so restricted. So we're so limited in where we can put geometry,
[29:46.400 -> 29:50.400] what shape that geometry has to be, what radii you're allowed to apply to them. So
[29:51.440 -> 29:55.920] the cars, okay, there are differences in concept, but I think there's not going to be something
[29:55.920 -> 30:00.640] fundamentally sort of dramatically different because you're just not allowed to do it.
[30:00.640 -> 30:02.640] I don't want to get in trouble.
[30:02.640 -> 30:02.800] No.
[30:07.520 -> 30:15.040] allowed to do it. Don't want to get in trouble. This is from Rodrigo in Mexico. How many hours do you work per day in a non-race week? Normal nine to five? No, unfortunately not. I think
[30:15.040 -> 30:19.640] it's, I think the overall work day in terms of how many hours you're in the office or
[30:19.640 -> 30:24.220] how many hours you're thinking about it is regularly at least sort of 12 hours a day.
[30:24.220 -> 30:27.520] Because typically, you know, already before you even arrive at work, you'll have checked your emails, you'll
[30:27.520 -> 30:31.440] know what's happened overnight. And you might be thinking about that on the way to work.
[30:31.440 -> 30:36.880] You typically are at work from, you know, eight until six, 37. And then of course, driving home,
[30:36.880 -> 30:40.480] thinking about what can we do to try and improve that? Or how are we going to resolve that? And
[30:40.480 -> 30:44.880] then that starts to form the basis of the following day. So yeah, it's pretty full on,
[30:44.880 -> 30:45.000] there's not much time for anything else. I end up with trippy dreams, design dreams. resolve that and then that starts to form the basis of the following day. So yeah, it's pretty full on.
[30:45.000 -> 30:46.240] There's not much time for anything else.
[30:46.240 -> 30:48.920] You end up with trippy dreams, design dreams.
[30:49.360 -> 30:52.440] Oh yeah, I mean, I've, yeah, I've, there's a number of times where I've woke up in the
[30:52.440 -> 30:56.000] middle of the night going, oh right, you know, your brain's been processing and you
[30:56.000 -> 30:57.960] sort of come up with an idea in the middle of the night.
[30:57.960 -> 31:01.920] Or that's why I find like with the gym or going out running, there's those times that
[31:01.920 -> 31:04.080] you actually find your brain starts to process things.
[31:04.120 -> 31:06.880] And that's when you think, oh right, I can maybe do this or we could do that and
[31:06.880 -> 31:07.880] that's how you come up with ideas.
[31:07.880 -> 31:12.400] So yeah, it's just, it's just, there's no real, there's not really sort of hours worked
[31:12.400 -> 31:14.000] and then you completely switch off.
[31:14.000 -> 31:16.400] Certainly I never switch off.
[31:16.400 -> 31:19.280] So it's all, we're always going.
[31:19.280 -> 31:23.560] This is from Ashley in the UK who says, what has been your favorite upgrade that you have
[31:23.560 -> 31:25.280] brought that isn't talked about
[31:25.280 -> 31:26.280] enough?
[31:26.280 -> 31:32.560] I'd say the exhaust. That exhaust. That was the one I'm probably most proud of.
[31:32.560 -> 31:36.320] I think the best upgrade is the one that nobody knows about that brings a lot of performance
[31:36.320 -> 31:42.600] and no one else understands. So it's more the, from my perspective, it's better that
[31:42.600 -> 31:47.040] our upgrades are not talked about because then nobody else can copy it.
[31:47.040 -> 31:48.720] Yes, very nice, that's fair enough.
[31:48.720 -> 31:52.400] Yeah, this is from Amina in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
[31:52.400 -> 31:54.740] who says, my question is for Ben.
[31:54.740 -> 31:56.760] How do you decide what is the best setting
[31:56.760 -> 31:58.240] for each car during the race
[31:58.240 -> 32:00.540] in order to maximize performance?
[32:01.680 -> 32:02.720] It's a good question.
[32:02.720 -> 32:07.560] So I think we look at lap time is ultimately the main objective.
[32:07.560 -> 32:13.360] And so we're always trying to refine the setup of the car to minimize the lap time. So we
[32:13.360 -> 32:17.460] do that already with our simulation tools in advance. And then as we get towards the
[32:17.460 -> 32:21.040] weekend we start to include the driver in it within the driving the loop simulator.
[32:21.040 -> 32:29.040] And then it's to make sure they're comfortable with the setup because the quickest setup in terms of simulation world may not be the quickest when you put a real driver
[32:29.040 -> 32:35.280] inside. So and then that process continues to be refined throughout the race weekend because the
[32:35.280 -> 32:39.760] track conditions change or the tyres are different and then that's down to the race engineering group
[32:39.760 -> 32:44.560] who are very competent at listening to what the driver has to say, making setting changes on the
[32:44.560 -> 32:45.280] car, making the driver more comfortable and, making setting changes on the car,
[32:45.280 -> 32:46.520] making the driver more comfortable,
[32:46.520 -> 32:48.640] and ultimately that leads to a quicker car.
[32:49.880 -> 32:51.120] Yeah, yeah.
[32:51.120 -> 32:52.560] Very much.
[32:52.560 -> 32:54.600] This is from Bart in the USA, who said,
[32:55.640 -> 32:57.760] what is the most important or valuable thing
[32:57.760 -> 33:00.960] that you have learned from working with Adrian Newey?
[33:00.960 -> 33:02.000] Never compromise.
[33:03.000 -> 33:04.120] I love that.
[33:04.120 -> 33:09.000] What is it about Adrian that inspired you so much to want to write to him in the first place?
[33:09.000 -> 33:15.000] I think it's just the way it was just, it was always with him, it's always about car performance. Nothing else matters.
[33:15.000 -> 33:26.440] And I think when I, so when I joined in 2006 and then he arrived, obviously my first Formula 1 car that I'd worked on, never knew anything about how F1 worked,
[33:26.440 -> 33:28.800] but he just completely changed the mindset
[33:28.800 -> 33:32.160] about how you go about designing a Formula One car.
[33:32.160 -> 33:33.480] There was no compromise.
[33:33.480 -> 33:36.080] Everything was always about adding performance.
[33:36.080 -> 33:38.760] And it's just that single-minded vision.
[33:38.760 -> 33:40.920] It's like, okay, that's how you do it.
[33:40.920 -> 33:45.320] How do you think he would cope with AI possibly helping out?
[33:45.320 -> 33:46.560] I mean, because he's old school.
[33:46.560 -> 33:49.600] He is, I like my notebook and pen and I like to sketch.
[33:49.600 -> 33:52.360] He is, but Adrian's always open to new ideas.
[33:52.360 -> 33:53.200] Yeah.
[33:53.200 -> 33:54.840] And again, it's the same thing.
[33:54.840 -> 33:57.880] Anything that is beneficial to making the car quicker,
[33:57.880 -> 34:00.120] he will grab and add on.
[34:00.120 -> 34:03.120] So yeah, I think he'd be quite open to it.
[34:03.120 -> 34:04.600] This is from Dennis in the Netherlands,
[34:04.600 -> 34:07.120] who says, for Craig, have you ever had a design
[34:07.120 -> 34:09.480] that looked good on paper, but didn't work
[34:09.480 -> 34:10.680] when it was built?
[34:10.680 -> 34:11.520] Yes.
[34:11.520 -> 34:12.360] Yes.
[34:12.360 -> 34:15.040] And I think, absolutely.
[34:15.040 -> 34:16.560] I think, and again, as Ben said,
[34:16.560 -> 34:18.680] you learn the most from your failures.
[34:18.680 -> 34:21.520] And we've had, I remember when I worked in aerodynamics,
[34:21.520 -> 34:23.560] we had front wings or parts of the car
[34:23.560 -> 34:26.880] that were good gains either in CFD or the wind tunnel,
[34:26.880 -> 34:27.760] and you put them on track,
[34:27.760 -> 34:29.720] and they didn't work anything like that.
[34:29.720 -> 34:32.040] But then again, what you then need to ask yourself is,
[34:32.040 -> 34:33.280] okay, well, why didn't it work?
[34:33.280 -> 34:34.840] What was wrong with our tools?
[34:34.840 -> 34:35.680] And you need to go back,
[34:35.680 -> 34:37.840] then you go through the process of improving your tools,
[34:37.840 -> 34:39.160] understanding what the process is,
[34:39.160 -> 34:42.640] so that the next time you do a new design, it actually works.
[34:42.640 -> 34:44.720] So you can always learn and improve
[34:44.720 -> 34:47.600] even from when what you produce doesn't work.
[34:47.600 -> 34:50.000] This is from Maché in the UK, he says,
[34:50.000 -> 34:53.160] is design 100% driven by performance
[34:53.160 -> 34:57.800] or do you take the looks of the car into account as well?
[34:57.800 -> 35:00.000] Looks don't come into it.
[35:00.000 -> 35:02.320] If it looks horrible, but it makes the car faster,
[35:02.320 -> 35:03.800] we'll put it on the car.
[35:03.800 -> 35:05.800] The best looking car is the quickest car. But in generally, yes. If it looks fast, but it makes the car faster, we'll put it on the car. The best looking car is the quickest car.
[35:05.800 -> 35:07.800] But in general, in general, yes.
[35:07.800 -> 35:09.760] If it looks fast, it is fast.
[35:09.760 -> 35:11.840] This is from Vilta in Lithuania, who says,
[35:11.840 -> 35:13.640] how important is driver feedback
[35:13.640 -> 35:15.760] in the performance engineering process?
[35:15.760 -> 35:18.200] And how do you work closely with the drivers
[35:18.200 -> 35:20.600] to extract valuable insights?
[35:20.600 -> 35:22.480] I think that's a super important one.
[35:23.480 -> 35:24.480] It's about, ultimately,
[35:24.480 -> 35:25.840] it's the marriage of the vehicle
[35:25.840 -> 35:28.120] and the machine, sorry, driver and the machine.
[35:28.120 -> 35:30.120] You need to have them in unison such that the driver
[35:30.120 -> 35:31.680] feels comfortable in the car.
[35:31.680 -> 35:33.280] And because these cars are so quick,
[35:33.280 -> 35:35.640] it's so important that the driver is confident
[35:35.640 -> 35:38.560] and not in fear of the car.
[35:38.560 -> 35:40.800] So we have to make sure that the two are compatible
[35:40.800 -> 35:42.960] and the setup will then evolve to suit
[35:42.960 -> 35:45.080] the driver's characteristics and their driving style.
[35:45.080 -> 35:48.840] So I guess it's kind of a mixed bag, like so you've got Daniel Ricciardo that's been
[35:48.840 -> 35:52.640] doing a lot of sim driving, so then I guess you would take a bit of data and stuff from
[35:52.640 -> 35:56.760] him and then you would then speak to Max, speak to Checo to see how they feel on the
[35:56.760 -> 35:57.760] actual track.
[35:57.760 -> 36:01.320] Yeah, so we know that the two drivers drive a little bit differently and Daniel sits somewhere
[36:01.320 -> 36:07.000] in the middle, but we're in a position where we have enough data and enough knowledge that we can start to drive the setup
[36:07.000 -> 36:10.000] for one drive in one direction and slightly different for the other.
[36:10.000 -> 36:13.000] And Daniel's wise enough to be able to know,
[36:13.000 -> 36:15.000] OK, I know what Max will need, I know what Cheka will need.
[36:15.000 -> 36:18.000] Ah, he's very talented.
[36:18.000 -> 36:20.000] This is from Laura in Austria.
[36:20.000 -> 36:23.000] He says, why did you go with Red Bull?
[36:23.000 -> 36:25.280] Which is an awesome choice, which she actually has said, which is an awesome choice, but why did you choose you go with Red Bull? Which is an awesome choice, which she actually has said,
[36:25.280 -> 36:26.600] which is an awesome choice.
[36:26.600 -> 36:28.920] But why did you choose to work with Red Bull?
[36:29.920 -> 36:31.600] I'm going to go to both of you for this one.
[36:31.600 -> 36:34.480] Well, I think at the time it was because
[36:34.480 -> 36:37.760] I was supporting Red Bull in my previous position
[36:37.760 -> 36:40.320] and it was a good avenue to get into F1.
[36:40.320 -> 36:42.640] And I think I also was aware that Adrian,
[36:42.640 -> 36:44.520] there was rumours in the press that Adrian
[36:44.520 -> 36:45.480] were moving to Red Bull. So I thought, well, if I was going to try and go anywhere, there was rumors in the press that Adrian were moving to Red Bull.
[36:45.480 -> 36:47.600] So I thought, well, if I was going to try and go anywhere,
[36:47.600 -> 36:49.440] that was a good place to go.
[36:49.440 -> 36:50.280] I mean, I guess you didn't probably-
[36:50.280 -> 36:51.880] I can't really say that, can I?
[36:51.880 -> 36:52.760] I mean, I can't, no.
[36:52.760 -> 36:55.720] Technically, you chose to come back in 2017.
[36:55.720 -> 36:58.040] I did, I did. So the question still stands.
[36:58.040 -> 36:58.960] So first time, I obviously,
[36:58.960 -> 37:00.560] I didn't make a choice to come to Red Bull.
[37:00.560 -> 37:03.640] But the second time, because I knew what Red Bull meant
[37:03.640 -> 37:09.680] and what the brand was and sort of how the team operated, I'd also been with Toro Rosso, which was Red Bull's junior team for
[37:09.680 -> 37:14.480] three years, so coming back was sort of just, I would much rather be here than any other team
[37:14.480 -> 37:20.640] on the grid. That was the answer I was looking for. Lovely. So we're going to play the HP Poly
[37:20.640 -> 37:25.920] challenge now, and this is the final challenge, okay, so HP Poly are our partners, they are the
[37:25.920 -> 37:31.360] leader in video and voice solutions and they want to challenge our guests. So we have a very nice
[37:31.360 -> 37:36.000] Bluetooth speaker here, an HP Poly Bluetooth speaker. We're going to play you a montage.
[37:36.000 -> 37:41.280] Now on this montage there are four voices, you can work together as a team or against each other,
[37:41.280 -> 37:48.200] it's totally up to you. Teams probably best. As a, okay, that's fine. So I need you to tell me who the four voices are.
[37:48.200 -> 37:51.360] They're four people that are very well known here at Red Bull.
[37:51.360 -> 37:53.120] So can you tell me who they are?
[37:53.120 -> 37:55.120] Everywhere we go, we've got very good pedigree,
[37:55.120 -> 37:57.760] and I apologize, it's often softer tires.
[37:57.760 -> 37:59.720] It's quick, I appreciate it's quick.
[37:59.720 -> 38:01.440] I don't want to put any pressure on, right?
[38:01.440 -> 38:04.080] But in the previous episode, when we had Hannah Schmitz,
[38:04.080 -> 38:09.640] we had Anna Groom and Roseanne Elvin, they listened to the clip once, it wasn't the same clip,
[38:09.640 -> 38:13.680] but they listened to the clip once and they got all four voices. So no pressure. Do you
[38:13.680 -> 38:15.520] want to give it a go with one listen?
[38:15.520 -> 38:20.160] I know, I think I know a couple of them.
[38:20.160 -> 38:21.160] Pedals?
[38:21.160 -> 38:22.160] Pedals, definitely.
[38:22.160 -> 38:23.160] Christian.
[38:23.160 -> 38:24.160] Checo.
[38:24.160 -> 38:25.480] Checo. I missed the other one. Do you want to have another listen?
[38:25.480 -> 38:26.480] Yeah.
[38:26.480 -> 38:27.480] All right, let's have another listen.
[38:27.480 -> 38:33.480] Everywhere where we go, got very good pedigree, and I apologize, softer and softer tires.
[38:33.480 -> 38:34.480] Let's go for voice number one.
[38:34.480 -> 38:35.480] Who do you think is voice number one?
[38:35.480 -> 38:36.480] Do you want to hear it?
[38:36.480 -> 38:37.480] I don't know if that was Christian or Checo.
[38:37.480 -> 38:38.480] Yeah, let's go one more time.
[38:38.480 -> 38:39.480] One more time, one more time.
[38:39.480 -> 38:40.480] Everywhere where we go, got very good pedigree, and I apologize, softer and softer tires.
[38:40.480 -> 38:41.480] I think it's Checo for us.
[38:41.480 -> 38:42.480] Checo, Christian, Checo.
[38:42.480 -> 38:43.480] I think it's Checo.
[38:43.480 -> 38:44.480] I think it's Checo.
[38:44.480 -> 38:47.440] I think it's Checo. I think it's Checo. I where we go, we've got very good pedigree and I apologize.
[38:47.440 -> 38:48.440] Soft and softer tires.
[38:48.440 -> 38:49.440] I think it's Checo first.
[38:49.440 -> 38:50.440] Checo, Christian, question mark, pedals.
[38:50.440 -> 38:54.440] Yeah, I'm not sure about question mark.
[38:54.440 -> 38:59.400] Okay, so I can tell you that is Checo is number one.
[38:59.400 -> 39:01.040] Number two, you've got wrong.
[39:01.040 -> 39:02.040] It's not Christian.
[39:02.040 -> 39:12.360] Sounds very similar to Christian, I appreciate that, but it's not, it's Mark Webber. Yeah. And then number three, no idea? No. No, it's Vittantonio Liuzzi.
[39:12.360 -> 39:18.360] Yeah, that was a tough one. That was a blast. Yeah, okay, yeah. And the final voice? Paul
[39:18.360 -> 39:21.560] Moynihan. Oh, there we go, because you were calling him a nickname. What was his nickname?
[39:21.560 -> 39:27.040] Pedals. Why is he called Pedals? You should ask him.
[39:30.560 -> 39:35.360] So you scored two out of four. Do you want to hear it again now you know who they are? Yes, please. Everywhere we go, we've got very good pedigree and I apologize, soft and softer tires.
[39:35.360 -> 39:41.200] Can you hear it now? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say that, you know, the girls were better,
[39:41.200 -> 39:45.760] but the girls were much better. Thank you so much for joining me.
[39:45.760 -> 39:47.760] It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to the two of you.
[39:47.760 -> 39:48.280] Thank you for having us.
[39:48.280 -> 39:48.880] Thank you very much.
[39:48.880 -> 39:50.960] And Talking Bull will be back again next month.