Ted and Crofty's top 10 team principals picks of 2023 - Part Two

Ted Kravitz and David Croft join for our latest pod to rank the top ten best team principals of the 2023 season, finishing with 5-1 in this part two.

**Navigating the Stormy Waters: Mike Krack's HR Prowess**

- Amidst Aston Martin's mid-season struggles, Team Principal Mike Krack exhibited exceptional human relations skills.
- He maintained harmonious relationships with the team owner, CEO, drivers, and technical personnel, contributing to a stable and supportive team environment.
- Krack's ability to keep everyone content and focused on their objectives earned him the second spot in the HR category.

**Addressing Media Relations: A Balancing Act**

- Krack's approach to media interactions was characterized by unique scheduling and selective engagement.
- He prioritized engineering and car performance over media availability, leading to occasional criticism from the press.
- Despite his limited media accessibility, Krack's transparency and willingness to explain technical issues when appropriate were commendable.

**A Season of Ups and Downs: Aston Martin's Rollercoaster Ride**

- Aston Martin's 2023 campaign began promisingly with six podium finishes in the first eight races, largely due to Fernando Alonso's impressive performances.
- However, the team faced challenges in the middle of the season, with upgrades failing to deliver expected improvements and resulting in a performance decline.
- Despite these setbacks, Aston Martin managed to salvage their season with a podium finish in Brazil, highlighting their resilience and adaptability.

**Assessing Mike Krack's Leadership: Strengths and Weaknesses**

- Krack demonstrated strong leadership in fostering a positive team culture and maintaining relationships with key stakeholders.
- His ability to keep the team motivated and focused on their goals, even during difficult times, is a testament to his leadership skills.
- However, Krack's limited media engagement and occasional lack of clarity in explaining technical issues were areas for improvement.

**Overall Evaluation: A Solid Performance with Room for Growth**

- Mike Krack's first full season as Aston Martin's Team Principal showcased his strengths in human relations and leadership.
- His ability to navigate internal team dynamics and maintain a harmonious working environment was instrumental in the team's overall performance.
- While there were areas where Krack could have been more proactive, particularly in media relations and technical communication, he demonstrated a solid foundation for future growth and improvement.

**Moving Forward: The Road Ahead for Aston Martin**

- Aston Martin's ambition to compete with the top teams extends beyond on-track performance, encompassing off-track aspects as well.
- Team Principal Mike Krack needs to develop a stronger voice and presence on the big stage, emulating the leadership styles of Toto Wolff, Christian Horner, and Fred Vasseur.
- The team's move into a new factory presents both challenges and opportunities, requiring effective management to ensure a smooth transition and continued competitiveness.

**Conclusion: A Promising Start with a Focus on Future Success**

- Mike Krack's first season as Aston Martin's Team Principal was marked by both successes and challenges.
- His strengths in human relations and leadership helped stabilize the team and lay the foundation for future growth.
- As the team looks ahead, Krack must address areas for improvement, particularly in media engagement and technical communication, to elevate Aston Martin's status among the top teams in Formula One.

In this podcast, Ted Kravitz, David Croft, and Matt Beer engage in a lively discussion to rank the top ten Formula One team principals of the 2023 season. They evaluate each principal based on their technical performance, leadership, and overall direction of their respective teams.

Christian Horner, the Team Principal of Red Bull Racing, emerges as the clear winner with high scores in all categories. The team's record-breaking season, with 19 race wins out of 22, is a testament to Horner's exceptional leadership and management skills. His ability to create a winning culture, attract big-name sponsors, and effectively manage the team's star drivers, Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez, is widely praised.

Toto Wolff, the Team Principal of Mercedes, is also highly regarded for his leadership and technical expertise. However, Mercedes' struggles in the 2023 season, with only one win, lead to a lower ranking compared to Horner. Despite this, Wolff's long-term vision for the team and his ability to navigate challenging situations are acknowledged.

James Vowles, the new Team Principal of Williams, and Andrea Stella, the Team Principal of McLaren, are recognized for their impressive performances in their respective roles. Vowles' strategic leadership and technical background, along with Stella's successful restructuring of McLaren, contribute to their high rankings.

The discussion also highlights the challenges faced by team principals in managing driver relationships, dealing with media scrutiny, and navigating the ever-changing landscape of Formula One. The panelists emphasize the importance of adaptability, resilience, and the ability to inspire and motivate the team as key qualities for a successful team principal.

Overall, the podcast provides an insightful analysis of the leadership and management styles of the top Formula One team principals, shedding light on the complexities and demands of their roles in shaping the sport's competitive landscape.

[00:00.000 -> 00:11.680] Okay, let's move on to our next team principal, Mike Crack. Aston Martin, best season to date,
[00:11.680 -> 00:17.920] finished fifth in the championship on 280 points. Big year for Aston Martin, new factory,
[00:17.920 -> 00:22.860] and an incredible first half of the season, or first eight races, six podiums in eight
[00:22.860 -> 00:26.400] races for Aston Martin and for Fernando Alonso. Middle part of the season, Cro first eight races, six podiums in eight races for Aston Martin and for Fernando Alonso.
[00:26.400 -> 00:27.760] Middle part of the season, Crofty,
[00:27.760 -> 00:29.080] it got a little bit trickier, didn't it?
[00:29.080 -> 00:31.960] And how would you rate how Mike Crack
[00:31.960 -> 00:35.440] was able to navigate the stormy waters, as it were,
[00:35.440 -> 00:37.440] of the middle of the Formula One season?
[00:37.440 -> 00:39.740] It was a tricky, tricky task for him.
[00:41.840 -> 00:44.840] The downside, and being a West Ham fan,
[00:44.840 -> 00:50.000] I'm always aware of this, the downside to starting well is that the doubts always creep in.
[00:50.000 -> 00:56.000] You know, there's nothing, the only thing worse for my team than being a goal down has been a goal up, quite frankly.
[00:56.000 -> 01:08.000] But you know when you're performing well and it hasn't happened before, The doubts are going to creep in. You're not used to this level of success.
[01:08.000 -> 01:15.000] And something happened around about Spain time. Canada was a bit of an anomaly in terms of the set up.
[01:15.000 -> 01:26.500] But I think something happened with that Aston Martin car that they tried to chase performance too quickly, bringing upgrades to the track
[01:26.500 -> 01:30.220] that maybe the team weren't totally on top of
[01:30.220 -> 01:32.060] before they got to the track.
[01:32.060 -> 01:35.380] When the final upgrade came in that made things worse
[01:35.380 -> 01:36.820] that they then got rid of
[01:36.820 -> 01:41.020] and went back to finessing the Zandvoort upgrade,
[01:41.020 -> 01:43.100] that's when they picked up performance again,
[01:43.100 -> 01:45.880] but never to the extent of the start of the season.
[01:45.880 -> 01:49.640] And when you've got the owner is Lawrence Stroll, big character, he's putting all the
[01:49.640 -> 01:51.560] money, it's all Lawrence's money and his co-investors.
[01:51.560 -> 01:57.360] And then you've got Martin Whitmarsh as the group CEO, a guy who has very successfully
[01:57.360 -> 02:04.140] run McLaren and other big tech businesses in the aerospace world before that, and still
[02:04.140 -> 02:05.360] maybe thinks that,
[02:05.360 -> 02:06.200] I don't know whether he,
[02:06.200 -> 02:07.800] that Whitmarsh does think he has something
[02:07.800 -> 02:08.680] to prove in Formula One,
[02:08.680 -> 02:10.000] but is keen to get involved,
[02:10.000 -> 02:12.200] that's certainly fair to say,
[02:12.200 -> 02:14.360] then I think the reason that I've put Mike Cracker
[02:14.360 -> 02:16.680] as second in, second out of 10,
[02:16.680 -> 02:20.200] to the second best, nine points in the HR,
[02:20.200 -> 02:22.200] is that he kept the owner happy,
[02:22.200 -> 02:25.800] he kept the person above him, Martin Whitmarsh, happy,
[02:25.800 -> 02:27.880] he kept Fernando Alonso happy,
[02:27.880 -> 02:29.920] he kept his technical people happy,
[02:29.920 -> 02:32.000] he kept Lance Stroll happy,
[02:32.000 -> 02:35.160] and all of that made him, I think,
[02:35.160 -> 02:38.800] the second best in terms of human relations,
[02:38.800 -> 02:40.800] team principal out there this year.
[02:40.800 -> 02:42.000] In terms of dealing with the media,
[02:42.000 -> 02:43.720] Crofty, I completely agree with you.
[02:43.720 -> 02:49.160] He used to schedule media sessions at times that the media would never be at the
[02:49.160 -> 02:55.120] circuit like 7.30 in the morning. So he thought, well, that's the only slot I've got. The rest
[02:55.120 -> 02:58.480] of the time I need to devote to engineering and stuff that's going to make the car go
[02:58.480 -> 03:03.600] quicker. So quite rightly, you media can come in at a time that suits me, not you. And what
[03:03.600 -> 03:07.560] do you know? Nobody turned up because it was all too early
[03:07.560 -> 03:10.320] or it was before their buses got in or whatever.
[03:10.320 -> 03:14.400] So media actually, I've put him down as eighth
[03:15.600 -> 03:19.840] in terms of scheduling and wasn't always,
[03:19.840 -> 03:21.000] what's the best way to put it?
[03:21.000 -> 03:22.840] He wasn't always clearly explaining
[03:22.840 -> 03:24.980] what had happened to the car if he knew.
[03:24.980 -> 03:25.020] And that's what I think, just to expand on what you're saying, Crofty, in the middle of the season, the best way to put it. He wasn't always clearly explaining what had happened to the car if he knew.
[03:25.020 -> 03:27.680] And that's what I think, just to expand
[03:27.680 -> 03:29.600] on what you're saying, Crofty, in the middle of the season,
[03:29.600 -> 03:32.300] they kind of blamed, Fernando half blamed the tires halfway
[03:32.300 -> 03:35.880] through the season, that he blamed some new bits
[03:35.880 -> 03:36.680] in the front wing.
[03:36.680 -> 03:38.720] I wasn't really aware of that.
[03:38.720 -> 03:40.280] And then they eventually got round
[03:40.280 -> 03:43.560] to whether it was the new floor in Austin that didn't really
[03:43.560 -> 03:44.880] work, and then they took it off.
[03:44.880 -> 03:47.680] And then that's what led to the to the to the podium in
[03:47.680 -> 03:54.060] Brazil that was the problem. He wasn't always fully explaining, assuming that he
[03:54.060 -> 03:57.820] did know to the media exactly where Aston's pace went in the middle of the
[03:57.820 -> 04:01.860] season. He would say well it's nothing to do with you media, thanks for
[04:01.860 -> 04:06.560] coming but go away, it's for us to do in the team, which is again, a particularly
[04:06.560 -> 04:10.000] a very, very fair point and why in leadership, I've actually got
[04:10.000 -> 04:15.960] Mike crack as sixth just behind James vowels. So yeah, I think a
[04:15.960 -> 04:21.000] good season, and well tempered well liked man, gone off to the
[04:21.000 -> 04:24.640] points with Andy Stevenson that they missed in Austria, because
[04:24.640 -> 04:25.720] of the track limits thing
[04:25.720 -> 04:26.760] Which I think was great
[04:26.760 -> 04:31.120] Without those points might have been very costly for them at the end of the season in the constructors
[04:31.120 -> 04:37.120] And of course he had to put up with all the jokes about his name not least from some of our colleagues
[04:37.120 -> 04:39.120] so he did that with good grace and
[04:39.960 -> 04:41.960] good humor and
[04:42.080 -> 04:44.440] Yeah, he's he's a very very solid
[04:42.000 -> 04:42.100] good humor and
[04:44.640 -> 04:45.760] Yeah, he's he's a very very solid
[04:49.360 -> 04:49.960] sort of mid table for me it was their best season ever and
[04:53.700 -> 04:54.800] It brought eight podiums. It brought a fifth place
[04:57.480 -> 04:58.400] That could have been so much better. But you know
[05:03.600 -> 05:04.360] There's something to aim at for next year and Aston Martin should be hugely proud of their achievements in
[05:05.040 -> 05:06.040] 2023 but the pressure's on because year and Aston Martin should be hugely proud of their achievements in 2023.
[05:12.000 -> 05:12.640] But the pressure's on because Mike's bedded in now as team principal.
[05:17.760 -> 05:22.080] Aston Martin need a voice on the big stage amongst the other teams. He needs to, I think, grow into the Toto Wolf, the Christian Horner, the Fred
[05:22.080 -> 05:24.080] Vasseur kind of role.
[05:24.720 -> 05:25.960] And so does our next
[05:25.960 -> 05:31.180] team principal that we'll get onto in a moment, because that's the aspirations of Aston Martin
[05:31.180 -> 05:35.880] to be competing with the big teams. And that's not just on the track, but that's off the
[05:35.880 -> 05:41.000] track as well. And also, you know, you've mentioned that they moved into the new factory
[05:41.000 -> 05:49.800] to do everything they've done whilst basically whilst moving house. I mean, if Ted stood up, you'd see that he's still unpacking boxes in his house. I mean, look
[05:49.800 -> 05:52.720] at this. I mean, how long have you been in that place now?
[05:52.720 -> 05:59.880] A year and I've had to hide that packing box with a nice, a nice cushion. So yeah, it's
[05:59.880 -> 06:03.080] difficult. It is difficult. Trying to find the time to find the time.
[06:03.080 -> 06:05.560] To move house and compete on a racetrack
[06:05.560 -> 06:10.560] every other week. You know, it's damn near impossible. But the Ted's had races off.
[06:10.560 -> 06:16.240] Impressive. Yes. I have one more one more comment on my crack as well. I think the the
[06:16.240 -> 06:19.960] Lance Stroll perform all the Lance Stroll performances in the second half of the season
[06:19.960 -> 06:32.000] were very interesting. I think it all came to a head in Qatar, didn't it, when he pushed someone in the garage. And I think that maybe could have, that seemed to spill over into
[06:32.000 -> 06:36.360] the media. And I do wonder if there was anything more he could have done as the team principal,
[06:36.360 -> 06:42.200] perhaps. But then it is very difficult when the owner of the team is Lance Stroll's father.
[06:42.200 -> 06:47.840] It's very unique circumstances. So perhaps he did very well given the situation that he found himself in.
[06:47.840 -> 06:52.320] I would say behind the scenes, knowing Mike as I do,
[06:52.320 -> 06:56.560] he would have been addressing the issues head on
[06:57.360 -> 07:03.440] and they would have found a way to help Lance through that.
[07:03.440 -> 07:05.560] And I think Mike is very good at that.
[07:05.560 -> 07:09.440] The pastoral care side of being a team principal,
[07:09.440 -> 07:11.200] I think he's very, very good at that.
[07:11.200 -> 07:15.840] But I think, you know, talking to the media about it,
[07:15.840 -> 07:18.960] be it consciously or subconsciously,
[07:18.960 -> 07:20.160] that's not something he wanted to do.
[07:20.160 -> 07:22.200] Yeah, he wasn't interested, yeah.
[07:22.200 -> 07:23.020] Good.
[07:23.020 -> 07:23.860] Fair enough, okay.
[07:23.860 -> 07:27.080] Mike Crack, so Ted, 26 points for you.
[07:27.080 -> 07:29.560] Crofty, you got 24 points for Mike
[07:29.560 -> 07:31.700] and then I gave him 25.
[07:31.700 -> 07:32.540] So we're-
[07:32.540 -> 07:33.880] I think in many ways, I mean,
[07:33.880 -> 07:36.580] well, you know, had we not had such good scores
[07:36.580 -> 07:38.360] for James Vowles and Andre Estella,
[07:38.360 -> 07:40.200] who we'll come onto in a bit,
[07:40.200 -> 07:43.360] I think Mike Crack could have finished higher than he did.
[07:43.360 -> 07:44.960] Because I think he had a very good season.
[07:44.960 -> 07:45.000] Let's move on then to talk about Andre Estella. And actually, interestingly, I think Mike Crack could have finished higher than he did because I think he had a very good season.
[07:45.000 -> 07:46.560] Let's move on then to talk about Andrea Stella.
[07:46.560 -> 07:48.060] And actually, interestingly,
[07:48.060 -> 07:50.400] they experienced a mid-season turnaround,
[07:50.400 -> 07:53.740] whereas obviously Mike was overseeing
[07:53.740 -> 07:56.200] the beginning of the season turnaround for Aston Martin.
[07:56.200 -> 07:58.320] So in many ways, their sort of performances on track
[07:58.320 -> 08:01.600] were slightly mirrored in the sense of how well they did
[08:01.600 -> 08:03.780] and maybe the unexpected nature of it.
[08:03.780 -> 08:05.440] But yeah, McLaren, brilliant season,
[08:05.440 -> 08:08.880] probably one of the best mid-season turnarounds ever
[08:08.880 -> 08:10.220] in the history of Formula One.
[08:10.220 -> 08:11.060] I think we could probably-
[08:11.060 -> 08:13.400] I don't want to say Lazarus-esque,
[08:13.400 -> 08:15.740] but let's say it, Lazarus-esque.
[08:15.740 -> 08:17.360] From where that car was-
[08:17.360 -> 08:18.200] You do, huh?
[08:18.200 -> 08:19.020] Yeah?
[08:19.020 -> 08:21.380] This thing rose like Lazarus of old.
[08:21.380 -> 08:22.720] If you think back to where McLaren were
[08:22.720 -> 08:24.200] at the start of the year in Bahrain,
[08:24.200 -> 08:26.220] almost certainly the slowest car,
[08:26.220 -> 08:29.720] if not one of the slowest cars to turn it around, incredible.
[08:29.720 -> 08:32.920] Ted, take the floor in terms of what you see,
[08:32.920 -> 08:35.200] the strengths of Andreas Stella.
[08:35.200 -> 08:37.720] So I've actually marked Stella first
[08:37.720 -> 08:42.160] in the HR department out of 10.
[08:42.160 -> 08:44.480] And that is because of the way
[08:44.480 -> 08:46.320] that he explained his differing role.
[08:46.320 -> 08:50.600] So he's been with McLaren for a while, was at Ferrari before that, won a
[08:50.600 -> 08:55.280] championship with Kimi Raikkonen and almost won another championship with
[08:55.280 -> 09:00.480] Fernando Alonso. But when he was racing director of McLaren all he needed to
[09:00.480 -> 09:08.960] know were the 300 people or so who were in his in his group and the he explained it, when he took over as team principal, when Zach gave him
[09:08.960 -> 09:15.600] that job after Andreas Seidel left for Sauber, he needed to get to know the other 800 people
[09:15.600 -> 09:17.180] that make up McLaren.
[09:17.180 -> 09:23.080] Not only has he done that, and he is not an extravagant, flamboyant figure, he has done
[09:23.080 -> 09:26.800] that with respect and admiration and has kept
[09:26.800 -> 09:31.480] everybody together at what could have been, after the early season disappointments for
[09:31.480 -> 09:37.080] McLaren, a very fractious and potentially spiralling time.
[09:37.080 -> 09:39.560] But he's done a great job on the HR.
[09:39.560 -> 09:44.240] That McLaren for large parts of the season was the second fastest car in Formula One,
[09:44.240 -> 09:45.680] arguably the only
[09:45.680 -> 09:50.720] car that worried Max Verstappen in the hands of maybe Landon Norris or Oscar Piastri on a
[09:51.600 -> 09:56.160] regular basis, together with Carlos Sainz, the only other car that won a race. Yes, it was a
[09:56.160 -> 10:00.800] sprint race, but it still won a race apart from the Red Bull this year. So technical, once they
[10:00.800 -> 10:07.340] got going, is very good. Leadership, I got Stella actually a little bit further down
[10:07.340 -> 10:09.280] because it was his first year
[10:09.280 -> 10:11.240] and because he is a quiet man,
[10:11.240 -> 10:14.620] softly spoken in the greatest traditions of Ross Brawn.
[10:14.620 -> 10:17.000] Media and sponsorship, I've got Stella second
[10:17.000 -> 10:19.880] because while he's very good with the media,
[10:19.880 -> 10:21.120] he'll always answer questions.
[10:21.120 -> 10:24.000] There is that Zach Brown element above him
[10:24.000 -> 10:27.800] who deals with the sponsorship. So it is a slightly sort of split, uh, team
[10:27.800 -> 10:32.800] principal. Um, but yeah, I mean, I must say when he was first, I mean, people
[10:32.800 -> 10:36.560] might not know this about me. Um, but I've got a soft spot for McLaren. People
[10:36.560 -> 10:40.720] think I've got a soft spot for another team. It's actually not true. Uh, I
[10:40.720 -> 10:43.880] have, if there is a team that I have a soft spot for, it's for McLaren because
[10:44.000 -> 10:49.620] growing up, I always loved it. And center I am I the job that Ron Dennis did and Martin Whitmarsh and
[10:51.520 -> 10:56.040] Dave Ryan and going back a long time. Anyway, if I do have a soft spot, it's for McLaren
[10:56.540 -> 10:58.540] Not the team you think I have a soft spot for
[10:58.720 -> 11:02.280] It's true come in. Oh if he bleeds red and white I do I do
[11:03.640 -> 11:05.640] It's true. Not fire. Um,
[11:06.120 -> 11:08.560] when a guy and,
[11:08.640 -> 11:13.080] and I sort of embodied Ron Dennis for a minute when a guy who had won a
[11:13.080 -> 11:17.440] championship for Ferrari became the McLaren team
[11:17.440 -> 11:21.760] principal, you know, in my Ron Dennis head, I was kind of, you know,
[11:21.840 -> 11:25.540] does not compute, does not not compute but he made it work
[11:25.540 -> 11:31.300] He made it work and in that you know in the in the glory days that I grew up in where McLaren and Ferrari
[11:31.640 -> 11:34.680] Could not have been more keen enemies
[11:35.120 -> 11:40.680] For a guy who's won an Italian guy who's won a championship for Ferrari is now the McLaren team principal
[11:40.680 -> 11:47.920] This isn't gonna work, but it did work really well, and that's what I'm so happy with. He's a very personable guy, he's good with the media, he's good on leadership, he's good on
[11:47.920 -> 11:55.760] technical performance, and I mean I've only, he's my, I sort of played around with it actually.
[11:55.760 -> 12:02.000] Before I thought I had him third, then I had him second overall, but then I had him fourth, but yeah
[12:02.000 -> 12:09.160] he's right up there for me. I know I said James Vowles was team principal of the year, for me he is, but Andre Estela
[12:09.160 -> 12:10.160] actually I gave more marks to.
[12:10.160 -> 12:11.160] He's team principal of the year.
[12:11.160 -> 12:17.440] Yeah, but I gave him more marks because technical performance, I think, I just think he's done
[12:17.440 -> 12:23.880] a better job in that respect, but he probably had better resources to play around with to
[12:23.880 -> 12:25.600] get that technical performance.
[12:25.600 -> 12:32.880] But I do remember this time last year, January last year, when he was announced as team principal
[12:32.880 -> 12:36.800] and Ted, you and I might have had a conversation that went something along the lines of,
[12:36.800 -> 12:44.560] what? Really? Interesting. Bit left field. Not sure. Is it that there was no one else about
[12:44.560 -> 12:46.400] and they just had to promote someone from within?
[12:46.400 -> 12:49.400] And I'm glad to say that all the doubts
[12:49.400 -> 12:51.400] have massively evaporated.
[12:51.400 -> 12:55.400] For a man whose biggest strength,
[12:55.400 -> 12:57.400] I think, is patience.
[12:57.400 -> 13:00.400] And patience with his team,
[13:00.400 -> 13:02.400] and with his drivers,
[13:02.400 -> 13:04.400] and that patience he then expects
[13:04.400 -> 13:06.280] from those above him, and if drivers and that patience he then expects of those above him and if he
[13:06.280 -> 13:10.680] gets that patience he then delivers for the team.
[13:10.680 -> 13:20.080] And he is a brilliant example of how patience is a word that we should all use in our daily
[13:20.080 -> 13:25.880] walk of life and certainly in our career because it went so badly for McLaren at the
[13:25.880 -> 13:26.880] start of the season.
[13:26.880 -> 13:34.120] They were slower than a slow thing at the start of the year, but behind the scenes,
[13:34.120 -> 13:38.120] they'd identified that this is what was going to happen and they were working to put it
[13:38.120 -> 13:43.820] right and they didn't just rush things to the track, they brought upgrades when they
[13:43.820 -> 13:45.000] were ready, when the team understood the upgrades upgrades when they were ready,
[13:45.040 -> 13:47.180] when the team understood the upgrades,
[13:47.180 -> 13:50.040] when they knew how it was going to be.
[13:50.040 -> 13:52.600] And they started in Austria with Lando
[13:52.600 -> 13:55.040] and they had them on both cars at Silverstone.
[13:55.040 -> 13:57.240] And it was an instant impact.
[13:57.240 -> 14:01.600] To be fair, and I know this because I've spoken to him,
[14:01.600 -> 14:05.320] we had a great conversation on the way to catch a plane.
[14:05.320 -> 14:07.040] I think it was to Hungary where I said,
[14:07.040 -> 14:08.800] I am never going to believe a word you
[14:08.800 -> 14:10.280] say to me ever again.
[14:10.280 -> 14:11.520] And Andrea said, why is that?
[14:11.880 -> 14:13.240] I said, you told me these upgrades
[14:13.240 -> 14:14.800] are worth two tenths of a second.
[14:14.800 -> 14:16.000] You little liar.
[14:16.520 -> 14:17.800] He went, well, we thought they were.
[14:17.840 -> 14:19.840] I said, yeah, but then when I said
[14:19.840 -> 14:21.160] to you, they're worth a bit more,
[14:21.200 -> 14:22.800] you still said, no, it's only a couple
[14:22.800 -> 14:23.320] of tenths.
[14:23.800 -> 14:26.320] He went, well, I just wanted to make sure first.
[14:26.320 -> 14:28.680] He said, but we don't need to get carried away.
[14:28.680 -> 14:30.040] And we don't want to get carried away.
[14:30.040 -> 14:30.880] And this was in Hungary.
[14:30.880 -> 14:32.520] He said, we don't want to get carried away
[14:32.520 -> 14:34.840] making this car even faster
[14:34.840 -> 14:37.720] because we might lose focus on next year.
[14:37.720 -> 14:40.080] We still need to think about next year.
[14:40.080 -> 14:42.160] That's more important than this year.
[14:42.160 -> 14:44.400] So I'm really confident for a good year
[14:44.400 -> 14:46.000] for McLaren for next season.
[14:46.000 -> 14:53.500] I think Andrea, like Mike, is an engineer and loves the company of engineers,
[14:53.500 -> 14:58.000] but also feels very relaxed and very happy speaking to the media too.
[14:58.000 -> 15:01.500] And he's got to know the media, he's engaged with the media,
[15:01.500 -> 15:07.480] and we have, you know, on a Sunday we have a briefing ahead of every race
[15:07.480 -> 15:10.000] that Andrea gives and it was his idea to do it
[15:10.000 -> 15:12.240] and we get a lot of information
[15:12.240 -> 15:14.440] and we form relationships as well.
[15:14.440 -> 15:17.520] And it's been a pleasure to really get to know him properly
[15:17.520 -> 15:18.760] throughout the course of this year.
[15:18.760 -> 15:22.600] Keen tennis fan, wants to go to Wimbledon next year
[15:22.600 -> 15:25.200] because he absolutely loves his tennis.
[15:25.200 -> 15:27.480] You'll find him in the gym working out
[15:27.480 -> 15:29.320] after he's finished work for the day.
[15:29.320 -> 15:33.200] I know this because in Spain, I went to a reception
[15:33.200 -> 15:34.440] and I had to walk past the gym
[15:34.440 -> 15:35.600] and there he was working out
[15:35.600 -> 15:37.840] at roundabout half past nine at night.
[15:37.840 -> 15:39.880] Therein lies a lesson, Ted, for all of us.
[15:39.880 -> 15:42.640] If you want to get on, to be fair.
[15:42.640 -> 15:44.260] But I just think,
[15:46.560 -> 15:49.320] whether Zach realized exactly what he'd done
[15:49.320 -> 15:51.160] and knew what was going to come,
[15:51.160 -> 15:53.000] I don't know, I need to ask Zach this,
[15:53.000 -> 15:58.000] but he has been a delight and a surprise to many.
[15:58.040 -> 16:00.040] And I'm with you, Ted, you know,
[16:00.040 -> 16:01.840] it's nice to see McLaren on their uppers.
[16:01.840 -> 16:02.760] It really is.
[16:02.760 -> 16:04.760] Fun facts about Andreas Della, Matthew.
[16:04.760 -> 16:09.700] He likes tennis and the only remaining question is
[16:09.700 -> 16:13.100] how he couldn't ask David Croft what he was doing in his car
[16:13.100 -> 16:14.800] to go to the Hungary airport.
[16:14.800 -> 16:18.300] But it's good that you managed to hitch a lift, Crofty.
[16:18.300 -> 16:18.800] No, no, no.
[16:18.800 -> 16:20.200] We were on a bus.
[16:20.200 -> 16:21.200] We were walking.
[16:21.200 -> 16:24.300] We were walking to the gate.
[16:24.300 -> 16:26.240] We were on our way to Hungary. We were walking to the gate the gate, we're on our way to walking to
[16:26.240 -> 16:30.680] the gate. We were having a conversation as we as you know, going to the airport.
[16:30.760 -> 16:34.760] One of the one of the best ways to find anything out in Formula One is when
[16:34.760 -> 16:40.460] you're flying and you're flying and you get to stand in a queue with people who
[16:40.460 -> 16:44.960] can't avoid you, who when we get to the track, they can't leave confined areas
[16:44.960 -> 16:45.640] to avoid you. They can't avoid you, who when we get to the track, confine areas to avoid you.
[16:45.640 -> 16:46.640] They can't leave.
[16:46.640 -> 16:51.840] No, that's true. I get a lot of that at Stansted and Luton. Yes. I mean, I think the other
[16:51.840 -> 16:55.440] thing, the other thing I should say, nothing wrong with Stansted and Luton airports, just
[16:55.440 -> 17:01.120] want to make that clear, is that Stella has been very good with his drivers. In Lando's
[17:01.120 -> 17:05.000] qualifying wobbles and Oscar's first year,
[17:05.760 -> 17:08.320] Stella has been great with his drivers,
[17:08.320 -> 17:10.880] and I think that's important as well.
[17:10.880 -> 17:12.560] Yeah, they've performed exceptionally well,
[17:12.560 -> 17:14.320] particularly Oscar Piastra in a rookie season,
[17:14.320 -> 17:16.000] what an incredible rookie season he's had.
[17:16.000 -> 17:20.680] All right, so scores for Stella, Ted, you gave him 31.
[17:20.680 -> 17:21.520] 34, right?
[17:21.520 -> 17:25.680] Crofty, you gave him 34 34 and I gave him 31 as well.
[17:25.680 -> 17:26.680] So there we go.
[17:26.680 -> 17:27.680] Alright, let's move on.
[17:27.680 -> 17:28.680] We've got three left.
[17:28.680 -> 17:29.680] He's right up there.
[17:29.680 -> 17:30.680] He's right up there.
[17:30.680 -> 17:31.680] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[17:31.680 -> 17:32.680] He certainly is.
[17:32.680 -> 17:33.680] Let's move on to Ferrari and Fred Vasseur.
[17:33.680 -> 17:45.680] Now, I thought one of the most interesting parts of Fred Vasseur's season was in Las Vegas
[17:45.680 -> 17:51.120] when a drain cover ripped through the floor of Carlos Sainz's car.
[17:51.120 -> 17:55.600] And for me, I don't know what you thought, I felt like it was a bit of a coming of age
[17:55.600 -> 18:01.840] is the wrong expression, but a kind of arrival of Fred in an aggressive way because he really
[18:01.840 -> 18:04.560] stood up for Ferrari, I thought, at that point.
[18:04.560 -> 18:09.160] He wasn't having it, he was furious with F1, with the FA, that this had happened and that
[18:09.160 -> 18:13.560] ultimately his car, his driver, were going to be impacted negatively as a result of that.
[18:13.560 -> 18:17.080] And I thought in the press conference, he's obviously since been fine for those comments
[18:17.080 -> 18:20.240] and for the use of language, but he was absolutely seething, wasn't he?
[18:20.240 -> 18:24.500] And maybe it was a change from the sort of happy-go-lucky, jovial Fred Vasseur that
[18:24.500 -> 18:30.280] we're maybe slightly used to seeing. I thought he really arrived as a ferocious and fierce team
[18:30.280 -> 18:31.880] principal when it mattered most.
[18:31.880 -> 18:35.400] I think in the glare of the spotlight, yes, you're absolutely right, but he'd already
[18:35.400 -> 18:42.280] been very much fighting Ferrari's cause behind the scenes at various times and using the
[18:42.280 -> 18:47.320] Ferrari muscle for the best use of his team, you know, behind the
[18:47.320 -> 18:48.680] scenes during the course of the year.
[18:48.680 -> 18:52.060] But you're right, we saw angry Fred.
[18:52.060 -> 18:56.600] We've actually seen, I think in recent races, more happy Fred as well.
[18:56.600 -> 19:04.920] I think he was a little bit cagey at the start, as probably befits a man thrust into the glare
[19:04.920 -> 19:06.320] of the spotlight that is the Ferrari
[19:06.320 -> 19:12.840] team principal. I think he's done a decent job for Ferrari this year, they are the only
[19:12.840 -> 19:17.840] team other than Red Bull to win a race so we shouldn't forget that and Singapore was
[19:17.840 -> 19:25.760] a super weekend for Fred and for Carlos Sainz. Maybe we expected a bit more but it has been such a dominant
[19:25.760 -> 19:31.480] season for Red Bull that no one was really getting that close unless Red Bull had a bad
[19:31.480 -> 19:38.180] weekend and that was the bad weekend they had. The one thing I think Fred hasn't done
[19:38.180 -> 19:44.140] to our knowledge yet is to tie down both Charles Leclerc and Carlos Sainz if indeed they are
[19:44.140 -> 19:45.360] the future for Ferrari
[19:45.360 -> 19:49.280] and get that contract signed, they've only got another year to go, I don't think they
[19:49.280 -> 19:54.980] would want to lose either, necessarily. And whilst we hear these reports, nothing's coming
[19:54.980 -> 19:59.660] from Marinello to say, yes, these are our drivers, and he would have thought that might
[19:59.660 -> 20:09.120] have happened by now if those deals had been done. They just lost out on the runners-up spot. He has
[20:09.120 -> 20:19.440] lost, you know, he's lost David Sanchez hasn't he to McLaren. Members of the team have gone
[20:19.440 -> 20:26.200] Lauren Mekis obviously to Alfa Taur, but I think he's certainly in the case of
[20:26.200 -> 20:32.720] Loren Mekis, he's got a very good sporting director, Diego Laverneau, to
[20:32.720 -> 20:36.440] come in and he's just feeling his way into the job. Strategy has been better,
[20:36.440 -> 20:41.880] but engineering and the engine still need work. For historical accuracy,
[20:41.880 -> 20:46.440] Matthew, can I say that it was a water valve cover
[20:46.440 -> 20:51.920] was it? I beg your pardon. Not a drain in the defense of drains everywhere it was the
[20:51.920 -> 20:57.360] water valve cover and I'd like to formally apologize. Fred Vasseur, in the
[20:57.360 -> 21:04.400] spirit of the season, Fred Vasseur and Toto Wolff were just warned not fined for their
[21:04.400 -> 21:09.560] expletives. Thank you. In the Vegas press conference. But yeah, I mean, let's go through this
[21:09.560 -> 21:12.320] I've given Fred Vasseur actually funnily enough
[21:12.320 -> 21:14.640] I've given him 10 out of 10 top team boss first
[21:14.960 -> 21:22.780] For the media and sponsorship because he's always been on hand to explain what's going on with Ferrari even in those horrendous days
[21:23.100 -> 21:25.300] When it looked like they were tripping over their tails
[21:25.300 -> 21:27.100] again in the way that they did sometimes last year,
[21:27.100 -> 21:28.300] but they've been better on that
[21:28.300 -> 21:32.700] and explaining why they haven't been quite as good last year.
[21:32.700 -> 21:35.140] I've only put him sixth in the HR
[21:35.140 -> 21:36.980] because I don't see that he's able,
[21:36.980 -> 21:38.620] do you remember they have the big Ferrari
[21:38.620 -> 21:42.260] recruitment drive mid-season and it's still going on
[21:42.260 -> 21:45.600] and I haven't seen or heard many, many more people
[21:45.600 -> 21:48.040] who are coming to Ferrari to replace some of the ones
[21:48.040 -> 21:49.700] you've lost that you mentioned, Crofty.
[21:49.700 -> 21:52.480] So he's only sixth out of 10 on the HR
[21:52.480 -> 21:54.200] in terms of getting people in.
[21:54.200 -> 21:56.720] He's third out of 10 for me in technical performance.
[21:56.720 -> 21:59.920] That car was not great, but not as good as the one before it.
[21:59.920 -> 22:03.660] But he has identified in which areas they need to improve,
[22:03.660 -> 22:05.360] and he knows what the drivers want,
[22:05.360 -> 22:09.060] and he knows what's important because he is a racer as well.
[22:09.060 -> 22:13.080] And in leadership, I've actually put Vassa second as well,
[22:13.080 -> 22:16.720] because I think he stood up not only at that Las Vegas event,
[22:16.720 -> 22:19.760] but at others and defended Ferrari
[22:19.760 -> 22:23.640] and is getting liked more and more by the Tifosi, who
[22:23.640 -> 22:25.200] weren't sure about him, first of all.
[22:25.200 -> 22:28.240] They thought some of his methods of coping
[22:28.240 -> 22:30.200] by using humor and smiling,
[22:30.200 -> 22:31.600] maybe wasn't taking the job
[22:31.600 -> 22:34.120] of Ferrari team principal seriously.
[22:34.120 -> 22:35.280] They've been disavowed of that
[22:35.280 -> 22:36.440] in the biggest possible terms.
[22:36.440 -> 22:38.280] There's no one under any doubt now
[22:38.280 -> 22:39.640] that Fred Vasseur takes that job
[22:39.640 -> 22:42.480] of Ferrari team principal absolutely seriously.
[22:42.480 -> 22:43.800] And the fact that he didn't speak Italian
[22:43.800 -> 22:49.480] had something to go by it, but he is learning in that way as well. So yeah, I think overall he's second
[22:49.480 -> 22:51.120] or probably third for me.
[22:51.120 -> 22:54.400] I have 32 points out of 40 for Fred Vasseur.
[22:54.400 -> 22:56.240] Ted, for Vasseur you have 30.
[22:56.240 -> 22:58.720] 30 points? Can't even add up now.
[22:58.720 -> 23:00.240] Yeah, he's third for me.
[23:00.240 -> 23:05.000] Yeah, 30 for you Ted, and I gave him 29.
[23:06.840 -> 23:08.840] The hard task master that I am.
[23:08.840 -> 23:11.700] Right, final two that we've got is Toto Wolff
[23:11.700 -> 23:12.540] and Christian Horner.
[23:12.540 -> 23:14.920] So obviously in championship order,
[23:14.920 -> 23:16.820] we'll start with Toto Wolff,
[23:16.820 -> 23:18.520] finished his second in the championship,
[23:18.520 -> 23:21.720] Crofty on the face of it, a simple straightforward season,
[23:21.720 -> 23:22.560] or was it?
[23:22.560 -> 23:23.380] It wasn't, was it?
[23:23.380 -> 23:24.220] No, it wasn't.
[23:24.220 -> 23:27.000] For Toto Wolff, it was up and down. Let's say the
[23:27.000 -> 23:28.000] least.
[23:28.000 -> 23:32.200] It wasn't. I think we've seen a different side of Toto Wolff this year to the Toto Wolff
[23:32.200 -> 23:35.880] we've seen in previous years because for the second year running they haven't really been
[23:35.880 -> 23:45.960] winning much. They haven't won at all. Won when the year before they,
[23:49.840 -> 23:51.920] I don't know what the reasoning was behind the scenes going into this season,
[23:51.920 -> 23:55.040] but something stopped Mercedes
[23:55.040 -> 23:57.720] approaching a different concept.
[23:57.720 -> 24:00.520] Something stopped Mercedes doing
[24:00.520 -> 24:02.200] what was glaringly obvious,
[24:02.200 -> 24:04.840] and that was getting rid of the concept they had
[24:04.840 -> 24:06.840] to go down a different path.
[24:06.840 -> 24:10.000] And they started the season once again
[24:10.000 -> 24:11.720] with a car that was not befitting
[24:11.720 -> 24:13.800] of where they wanted to be.
[24:13.800 -> 24:15.880] Now, fair play to Toto Wolff.
[24:15.880 -> 24:17.600] He has made moves behind the scenes
[24:17.600 -> 24:20.840] to address the problem or the problems.
[24:20.840 -> 24:23.880] They have gone now in a different direction.
[24:23.880 -> 24:27.960] He has signed both of his drivers up to new contracts,
[24:27.960 -> 24:32.320] which I think was a massive plus point this year
[24:32.320 -> 24:35.320] for Mercedes, and they did finish second.
[24:36.240 -> 24:37.960] But without that driver lineup,
[24:37.960 -> 24:40.880] without Lewis Hamilton and George Russell,
[24:40.880 -> 24:41.800] one of the strongest,
[24:41.800 -> 24:44.960] if not the strongest driver lineups on the grid
[24:44.960 -> 24:46.520] as a partnership,
[24:46.520 -> 24:47.880] would they have finished second?
[24:47.880 -> 24:48.800] No, I don't think they would.
[24:48.800 -> 24:50.820] Was that a car that deserved to finish second?
[24:50.820 -> 24:52.640] Probably not, no.
[24:52.640 -> 24:54.960] Is it the Mercedes we've seen in the past?
[24:54.960 -> 24:57.040] Definitely not, no.
[24:57.040 -> 25:01.700] What can Toto Wolff do to drag Mercedes back
[25:01.700 -> 25:03.000] to their glory days?
[25:03.000 -> 25:06.760] Because that is the task that now lies ahead of him.
[25:06.760 -> 25:09.000] Ted, what about his no-blame culture?
[25:09.000 -> 25:11.520] How does that fit into your rankings
[25:11.520 -> 25:13.480] after a season like we've just had?
[25:13.480 -> 25:14.880] I think pretty good, but I think, you know what,
[25:14.880 -> 25:16.840] you know what, a lot of these teams have no-blame cultures.
[25:16.840 -> 25:18.040] I don't think Fred Vasseur particularly
[25:18.040 -> 25:19.200] has a no-blame culture now.
[25:19.200 -> 25:21.320] You know, you will identify areas
[25:21.320 -> 25:22.600] that you need to sort out,
[25:22.600 -> 25:23.920] and you will sort them out
[25:23.920 -> 25:25.660] with great strength and leadership.
[25:25.660 -> 25:27.360] And funny enough, talking about leadership,
[25:27.360 -> 25:28.580] that's the only category
[25:28.580 -> 25:30.320] where I've put Toto top of the list.
[25:30.320 -> 25:35.240] In leadership, in direction, in inspiring the team,
[25:35.240 -> 25:37.800] which I think, still think, he is the best leader,
[25:37.800 -> 25:39.480] watching him from the outside.
[25:39.480 -> 25:42.360] They would, people at Mercedes would jump off a cliff
[25:42.360 -> 25:43.480] with Toto Wolff, wouldn't they?
[25:43.480 -> 25:45.680] They would go into battle with him.
[25:45.680 -> 25:48.520] He just instills that leadership.
[25:48.520 -> 25:51.880] And maybe that's a hangover from the seven drivers and eight
[25:51.880 -> 25:54.360] world constructors championships of the past.
[25:54.360 -> 25:56.840] But I still have him as leadership,
[25:56.840 -> 25:59.080] because he keeps the drivers happy.
[25:59.080 -> 26:02.000] He keeps the sponsors, some amazing sponsors
[26:02.000 -> 26:03.000] on that Mercedes team.
[26:03.000 -> 26:06.360] Yes, it helps being a part of an OEM, a manufacturer,
[26:06.360 -> 26:07.880] of course, with the media and sponsorship,
[26:07.880 -> 26:09.400] I put Toto third.
[26:10.360 -> 26:14.080] With the HR, I've put him fourth
[26:15.200 -> 26:17.480] because of some of the details with Mike Elliott
[26:17.480 -> 26:19.800] and James Allison, which we'll talk about in a second.
[26:19.800 -> 26:21.380] And technical performance,
[26:21.380 -> 26:23.320] I've put him where the car is with second.
[26:23.320 -> 26:27.360] But yeah, you know, the thing that was with me about Toto, the only thing I've marked him down
[26:27.360 -> 26:38.220] on was his keenness to throw the concept away so publicly after qualifying in Bahrain.
[26:38.220 -> 26:41.600] For whatever reason, Crofty, and we don't really know why he managed to sign off, why
[26:41.600 -> 26:45.560] he did sign off on the sister of the bad car, which is
[26:45.560 -> 26:47.360] as Lewis Hamilton described it.
[26:47.360 -> 26:51.800] W14 was the sister of W13, and they were both not great cars.
[26:51.800 -> 26:53.200] Toto must have signed it off.
[26:53.200 -> 26:54.960] Otherwise, he could have said, he
[26:54.960 -> 26:57.680] could have, as a leader and a strong leadership,
[26:57.680 -> 26:59.360] he could have said, I disagree.
[26:59.360 -> 27:01.360] Let's go with the Red Bull concept.
[27:01.360 -> 27:03.640] But whatever reason they didn't, he signed it off.
[27:03.640 -> 27:05.240] And then for that very first,
[27:05.240 -> 27:07.720] I remember the interview vividly,
[27:07.720 -> 27:10.080] coming out so strongly and kind of took me aback
[27:10.080 -> 27:12.840] when he said it, he said, this car is, it's bad.
[27:12.840 -> 27:14.060] We're calling it a start.
[27:14.060 -> 27:16.960] This was after qualifying, the first race, wasn't it?
[27:16.960 -> 27:18.400] It wasn't even after the race.
[27:18.400 -> 27:21.140] I know he's right, but to immediately throw
[27:21.140 -> 27:24.000] the whole concept in the trash can then
[27:24.000 -> 27:25.560] was the only way that I'm,
[27:25.560 -> 27:32.400] I'm slightly thinking that it wasn't quite the calm assured Toto leadership that we've
[27:32.400 -> 27:33.400] seen.
[27:33.400 -> 27:39.120] But I don't think we saw the calm assured Toto leadership at all times last year.
[27:39.120 -> 27:46.600] And I think if you're talking leadership, was his leadership proactive or reactive?
[27:46.840 -> 27:52.480] Was he reacting more to situations than proactive, guiding the destiny of his own
[27:52.480 -> 27:58.560] team? And the decision not to get rid of the sister long before it came onto the
[27:58.560 -> 28:03.000] track meant that in the early stages, a lot of it was very reactive.
[28:03.320 -> 28:08.120] The little technical shuffle around was reactive.
[28:08.120 -> 28:13.120] And one of the, I think, strengths of Mercedes since 2014
[28:14.440 -> 28:16.960] has been they're not following a trend,
[28:16.960 -> 28:20.680] they're plowing their own furrow for others to follow.
[28:20.680 -> 28:23.200] And that is not the case at the moment,
[28:23.200 -> 28:24.920] it seems, from the outside.
[28:24.920 -> 28:25.920] I think that's a fair comment.
[28:25.920 -> 28:28.120] It's going to be a very different car next year.
[28:28.120 -> 28:32.720] I think we look forward to testing and seeing how far it's come.
[28:32.720 -> 28:36.440] Do we get into the James Ellison, Mike Elliott thing?
[28:36.440 -> 28:40.720] He saw that, he made them agree between themselves.
[28:40.720 -> 28:45.080] As far as the public image was concerned, it was all Mike Elliott's
[28:45.080 -> 28:49.800] idea to step back as technical director, then go to chief technical officer, and then go
[28:49.800 -> 28:54.620] to fields new, pastures new.
[28:54.620 -> 28:59.880] With that all resolved, James Allison really will step up.
[28:59.880 -> 29:01.360] You'd expect him to step up.
[29:01.360 -> 29:05.520] And I think Toto's probably learned a lot from these two unsuccessful seasons,
[29:05.520 -> 29:11.840] you know, one win in two seasons. And he's probably learnt a lot from that, but you know,
[29:11.840 -> 29:16.560] he's got his failings Toto Wolff and maybe not being reactive is one of them, but you
[29:16.560 -> 29:20.400] know, you've got to say that he's got his strengths and you know, the recent, the recent
[29:20.400 -> 29:26.880] issues let's say with, with, with the FIA has shown that Toto's not afraid to fight for himself,
[29:26.880 -> 29:28.840] him, for his family, and for his team.
[29:28.840 -> 29:30.400] And so he should.
[29:30.400 -> 29:31.920] And as a team owner, as well,
[29:31.920 -> 29:35.760] maybe has a slightly longer term view on performance
[29:35.760 -> 29:37.280] and where Mercedes are going than maybe
[29:37.280 -> 29:38.720] if he wasn't a team owner.
[29:38.720 -> 29:41.560] Okay, let's go through our scores.
[29:41.560 -> 29:45.440] So, Ted, you gave him 32 points. So, Ted, you gave him 32 points.
[29:48.840 -> 29:49.400] Crofty, you gave him 32 points as well.
[29:52.920 -> 29:53.120] And I gave him 27.
[29:54.040 -> 29:55.520] Wow. OK.
[29:57.000 -> 30:04.080] You get the running theme here. You can make a very good point that Toto should be either second or third or fourth.
[30:04.240 -> 30:05.720] You could make a good argument for either
[30:05.720 -> 30:06.720] of those positions.
[30:06.720 -> 30:09.320] Yeah, I went very low on technical performance.
[30:09.320 -> 30:13.120] Yeah, well, it's fine. That's fair. That's fair. Absolutely fair.
[30:13.120 -> 30:15.720] Yeah, a long way off Red Bull.
[30:15.720 -> 30:26.760] All right, final, final one. And we all agree, according to our numbers, that is the best team principle of 2023,
[30:26.760 -> 30:28.000] and that's Christian Horner,
[30:28.000 -> 30:30.800] obviously after the record-breaking season that they had.
[30:31.840 -> 30:33.180] Where to begin, really?
[30:33.180 -> 30:35.960] I think you can't, we've all gone 10
[30:35.960 -> 30:37.080] for technical performance,
[30:37.080 -> 30:41.440] because I think with a car that won every race but one,
[30:41.440 -> 30:45.000] you have to say that that is the best technical
[30:45.320 -> 30:47.140] achievement possibly ever in the sport
[30:47.140 -> 30:48.320] in terms of that car.
[30:48.320 -> 30:50.200] And surely, I mean, that's as far,
[30:50.200 -> 30:51.440] that's as good as it gets.
[30:51.440 -> 30:53.840] If they'd won Singapore, I don't know,
[30:53.840 -> 30:56.200] is it 9.9 maybe if they'd won Singapore,
[30:56.200 -> 30:57.960] we would have given them 10.
[30:57.960 -> 31:00.440] It was the standout car.
[31:00.440 -> 31:02.960] And Christian Horner is not designing that car,
[31:02.960 -> 31:07.020] but he is enabling the design team, the aero team,
[31:07.020 -> 31:12.020] the chassis team, the engine team to run their business
[31:13.020 -> 31:16.680] with management, but not micromanagement,
[31:16.680 -> 31:20.700] and empowering and enabling people to do their jobs.
[31:20.700 -> 31:23.380] And you have to give them a 10 out of 10
[31:23.380 -> 31:27.500] because they've won everything at a counter.
[31:27.500 -> 31:31.000] So, you know, you can't really mark them down at all.
[31:31.000 -> 31:39.500] Leadership, overall direction of the team, you know, once upon a time and not that long ago,
[31:39.500 -> 31:43.500] we're all sat here going, cool, Red Bull are going to have trouble, aren't they?
[31:43.500 -> 31:45.000] They haven't got an engine for the future.
[31:45.000 -> 31:48.000] Who's going to power their engine?
[31:48.000 -> 31:49.000] What are they going to do?
[31:49.000 -> 31:58.000] Look at the way Christian Horner saw a long-term vision for Honda and then for their own powertrain.
[31:58.000 -> 32:03.000] So that they are now a works team and a works team of their own engine.
[32:03.000 -> 32:07.400] And that will continue on, even when Ford come in in 2026,
[32:07.400 -> 32:10.040] he's brought Ford back into Formula One.
[32:10.480 -> 32:12.760] And that happened this year as well.
[32:13.560 -> 32:17.200] He has big blue chip companies sponsoring them.
[32:17.760 -> 32:19.680] I've seen Christian,
[32:20.360 -> 32:22.920] the way he interacts with the partners and the sponsors,
[32:22.920 -> 32:26.480] and he's an inspiring figure for them, he really is.
[32:26.480 -> 32:30.240] I've seen the way he interacts with the crew,
[32:30.240 -> 32:32.560] at the track and back at the factory.
[32:32.560 -> 32:34.960] And he's a guy that you can go and talk to.
[32:34.960 -> 32:36.820] Whoever you are, you can go and have a chat
[32:36.820 -> 32:38.280] with Christian Horner.
[32:38.280 -> 32:41.000] He talks to the media as if we're all old friends,
[32:41.000 -> 32:42.360] and quite frankly, we are,
[32:42.360 -> 32:44.560] because we've known him forever and ever.
[32:44.560 -> 32:46.520] You know, he's a racer.
[32:46.520 -> 32:50.440] And whatever people from the outside think
[32:50.440 -> 32:51.400] about Christian Horner,
[32:51.400 -> 32:54.320] and I know he kind of divides opinion sometimes
[32:54.320 -> 32:56.480] and probably Abu Dhabi 2021, you know,
[32:56.480 -> 32:58.760] is part and parcel of that.
[32:58.760 -> 33:01.560] But there is no better team principle
[33:01.560 -> 33:05.160] for the team that is Red Bull than Christian Horner.
[33:08.400 -> 33:08.940] They, the two fit absolutely perfectly.
[33:16.060 -> 33:18.240] And he has turned them from, you know, what was a bit of a half decent outfit in Milton Keynes to world leaders.
[33:18.720 -> 33:20.960] And, you know, should be applauded for that.
[33:21.220 -> 33:23.240] I don't think he always gets everything right.
[33:23.740 -> 33:26.240] I think that he probably still
[33:26.240 -> 33:32.960] has problems behind the scenes and dealing with the drivers is probably his biggest problem. Not
[33:32.960 -> 33:38.480] necessarily as characters, but the people behind the drivers and trying to keep everybody happy,
[33:38.480 -> 33:46.860] which is a nice problem to have when you've got the winning car. But he is absolutely the right person for Red Bull,
[33:47.040 -> 33:48.880] and you've got to hand it to him
[33:48.880 -> 33:50.200] in what he has developed
[33:50.200 -> 33:53.000] and the culture he's developed at Milton Keynes.
[33:53.000 -> 33:56.160] Yeah, so I think we've all gone high,
[33:56.160 -> 33:58.080] HR is the one that we've gone a bit lower,
[33:58.080 -> 34:01.800] Ted you've gone sixth, Crofty seven, I've gone seven.
[34:01.800 -> 34:04.240] Is that what Crofty was saying there, Ted,
[34:04.240 -> 34:06.720] that perhaps, for example,
[34:06.720 -> 34:12.200] managing Sergio Perez and managing his season, could there have been other things that Christian
[34:12.200 -> 34:14.680] could have done to smooth that process over?
[34:14.680 -> 34:19.560] Well possibly, but it's a bit complicated when it comes to who's around and above Christian
[34:19.560 -> 34:26.960] Horner at Red Bull. But going back to technical performance, just briefly, we have to say, Adrian Newey, Pierre Vachey,
[34:26.960 -> 34:29.480] all of those people, some of them
[34:29.480 -> 34:32.260] not so well-known to the public, who
[34:32.260 -> 34:36.640] created RB19 off the back of a very successful RB18.
[34:36.640 -> 34:38.240] Hats off to all of them.
[34:38.240 -> 34:39.200] Incredible car.
[34:39.200 -> 34:41.480] Technical performance cannot be beaten.
[34:41.480 -> 34:44.960] And I think the only way you could mark down
[34:44.960 -> 34:46.160] Christian Horner this year is
[34:46.160 -> 34:54.240] for the way that the Sergio Perez situation dealt was dealt with and the way that he was not able
[34:55.600 -> 35:01.200] to control Helmut Marko. Now Helmut Marko, you know, is uncontrollable. He's an uncontrollable
[35:01.200 -> 35:05.840] force. But you know, Mark Marco's unacceptable comments about Sergio Perez
[35:06.720 -> 35:10.760] were not very quickly jumped on because he can't,
[35:10.760 -> 35:12.640] and in a way, this is the genius
[35:12.640 -> 35:15.920] of what Horner has managed to achieve at Red Bull Racing
[35:15.920 -> 35:18.680] because say what you want about Christian Horner,
[35:18.680 -> 35:21.080] but he is juggling some situations,
[35:21.080 -> 35:23.920] some hot stones that you have got no idea
[35:23.920 -> 35:24.880] how difficult they are.
[35:24.880 -> 35:25.680] He is juggling
[35:27.360 -> 35:33.520] some component and volatile parts. Max Verstappen, who can be shown that when the car isn't to his
[35:33.520 -> 35:38.640] liking, is very vocal about it and can have a short fuse on the radio with GP as engineer. We
[35:38.640 -> 35:42.800] know that when things aren't going well. He's juggling Helmut Marko, who's the definition of
[35:42.800 -> 35:45.120] a loose cannon. He's juggling Oliver Mintzlaff who's the definition of a loose cannon. He's juggling
[35:45.120 -> 35:50.080] Oliver Mintzlaff, his new boss at Red Bull Racing, who is finding his way in charge of
[35:50.080 -> 35:54.760] the racing program since the passing, as we said earlier, as Dietrich Matschitz. He's
[35:54.760 -> 36:01.240] juggling Checo Perez and getting Checo back into what they want to do. And he's juggling
[36:01.240 -> 36:05.240] the sort of, you know, everything everything else the political side of Formula One
[36:05.320 -> 36:11.400] So he is doing an amazing job Christian was doing amazing job considering the amount he has got
[36:11.640 -> 36:14.000] To deal with and then the HR thing
[36:14.000 -> 36:20.840] I just marked him down because because of the Marco comments on on so on on checo Perez and you know what it could be
[36:21.200 -> 36:28.760] It boiled down to I remember saying this on, Matt and Crofty at the end, it's like Sergio Perez, you know, once they dealt with those comments
[36:28.760 -> 36:33.200] from Marco could Paris not say to go to helmet, okay, we've dealt with that.
[36:33.200 -> 36:34.680] I've forgiven you.
[36:34.680 -> 36:37.440] Can you stop being so mean to me now?
[36:37.440 -> 36:40.960] And that's what it came down to me, you know, and if you, if I'm sure if Christian could
[36:40.960 -> 36:45.400] do this year again, he'd say to helmet, or maybe he'd say to himself, do you know what?
[36:45.400 -> 36:47.720] I think we can give Checo a bit of a break here.
[36:47.720 -> 36:49.120] We don't need to be mean to him.
[36:49.120 -> 36:50.360] It's not the, it's not the stick.
[36:50.360 -> 36:54.000] He doesn't respond to what else the stick, let's give him a bit more of the carrot.
[36:54.000 -> 36:55.760] And that's the only way that I marked him down.
[36:55.760 -> 36:59.040] But clearly he's still, you know, the, the team boss of the year.
[36:59.040 -> 37:00.040] No, no question.
[37:00.040 -> 37:02.840] See, I think that's where I would slightly disagree.
[37:02.840 -> 37:04.680] He's not team boss of the year.
[37:04.680 -> 37:13.240] If you're looking at the Helmut Mark Marco situation and marking him down, because what Christian tried to do behind the scenes was very much the right thing.
[37:14.280 -> 37:25.960] But he didn't have the power to say to the brand and overturn what the brand wanted in terms of putting out statements when a statement needed to be coming from the team straight away.
[37:26.320 -> 37:29.760] And at that stage, Christian had his hands tied a little bit.
[37:30.280 -> 37:37.680] Um, yeah, but statements, I mean, you know, he wanted to stop being so mean to
[37:37.680 -> 37:37.960] check.
[37:37.960 -> 37:43.600] Yeah, but yeah, you can, you can, we could all say that and should say that.
[37:44.080 -> 37:45.960] However, Helmut's not going to listen.
[37:46.600 -> 37:50.920] What Christian wanted to do was put a statement out straight away because he
[37:50.920 -> 37:54.680] wanted to show the support to Sergio, because that was the right thing to do
[37:54.680 -> 37:55.960] and the only right thing to do.
[37:56.400 -> 38:02.800] But as far as I understand it, the Red Bull brand didn't want to do that.
[38:03.320 -> 38:09.760] Don't forget Helmut Marko, technically, is not an employee of Red Bull brand didn't want to do that. Don't forget Helmut Marko technically is not an employee of Red Bull Racing.
[38:09.760 -> 38:12.200] He works for Red Bull.
[38:12.200 -> 38:13.920] The parody map, they're two different things.
[38:13.920 -> 38:14.920] They are.
[38:14.920 -> 38:18.280] But, um, and, and look, Christian said this to me once.
[38:18.280 -> 38:21.600] I went, yeah, but the trouble is he stood at the back of your garage and he's got a
[38:21.600 -> 38:24.240] Red Bull jacket on and he looks like he's part of the team.
[38:24.240 -> 38:29.400] So no, that's not going to wash with anybody. But sometimes, you know, Christian hasn't
[38:29.400 -> 38:35.740] quite got the authority on a very, very senior level with a brand that you would expect or
[38:35.740 -> 38:41.040] he would hope to have to solve a situation very quickly. And that I think played out
[38:41.040 -> 38:45.220] in and around Singapore when eventually the statement from Helmut did
[38:45.220 -> 38:50.540] come a few days too late. The only way Matt I would mark and I trailed this at
[38:50.540 -> 38:53.080] the beginning so I should probably deliver on what I was saying the only
[38:53.080 -> 38:57.560] thing I would also mark Christian Orner down is for his increasing enthusiasm
[38:57.560 -> 39:03.120] for Instagram like in this form of James Vowles that you're saying he loves a
[39:03.120 -> 39:05.120] celebrity photo at the front of the grid
[39:05.120 -> 39:09.480] doesn't he Chris he loves it but my favorite one was when Shaquille O'Neal
[39:09.480 -> 39:13.800] came was delayed you remember Martin's grid what was live on it and Martin was
[39:13.800 -> 39:17.080] like okay where's Shaq going okay he's going to have his photo taken with
[39:17.080 -> 39:20.280] Christian Horner okay must be a guest of Red Bull I guess that's why he's taking
[39:20.280 -> 39:24.080] photos photos although machine-gun Kelly was also taking a picture with
[39:24.080 -> 39:26.000] sir with Christian at the front of the grid.
[39:26.000 -> 39:28.480] And then Shaq comes back and Martin says,
[39:28.480 -> 39:30.240] Shaquille, Shaquille, one word.
[39:30.240 -> 39:31.920] And he was Lewis Hamilton, baby.
[39:31.920 -> 39:36.100] And I was like, hang on, if you are a Red Bull guest.
[39:39.480 -> 39:40.320] It's not the party line.
[39:40.320 -> 39:42.880] Matt, can I just say, and I'd like to give people a reason
[39:42.880 -> 39:50.960] for staying to the end of this podcast, that I'm not taking that from my erstwhile and learned friend here about
[39:50.960 -> 39:53.440] Christian Horner stalking celebrities.
[39:53.440 -> 39:59.840] Because if you remember when Adam Driver came to Austin, yeah, right, he could not move
[39:59.840 -> 40:05.180] for Ted Kravitz being within about five yards skulking in the shadows as Adam
[40:05.180 -> 40:10.020] Driver walked about the paddock. I'm amazed that that brilliant opening we
[40:10.020 -> 40:14.540] did I'm stunned that you didn't get into every single shot you were that close to him.
[40:14.540 -> 40:20.340] One time, one time. Every celebrity has to have a picture with Christian
[40:20.340 -> 40:23.000] Orn in front of a Red Bull, whether they're Red Bull guests or not and by
[40:23.000 -> 40:28.680] the way at Monza he was in the, he was in the Brad Pitt shooting film. There's a scene where
[40:28.680 -> 40:34.920] I saw them shooting it where, um, uh, the guy plays, um, the body in, uh, killing Eve,
[40:34.920 -> 40:40.120] um, Danish actor, I've forgotten his name briefly. Um, he's the technical director.
[40:40.120 -> 40:44.120] He came in, in the film, he came and looked under the Red Bulls diffuser and then Christian
[40:44.120 -> 40:47.120] Horner stands in his way and tells him to clear his hook.
[40:47.120 -> 40:48.640] Kim Bodnia, there we go, Kim Bodnia.
[40:48.640 -> 40:49.280] Really?
[40:49.280 -> 40:54.080] Yeah, so that was, so Horner is in the film, so that was on the grid in Monza.
[40:54.080 -> 40:56.880] They did that on the real live grid, we were standing there,
[40:56.880 -> 40:59.200] I was looking at what's going on, you know, cars, interesting.
[40:59.200 -> 41:00.640] So, oh, they're shooting a scene of the film.
[41:00.640 -> 41:02.480] Oh, it's Kim Bodnia from Killing Eve.
[41:02.480 -> 41:04.240] Oh, Christian Horner's telling him to sling his hook.
[41:04.240 -> 41:07.280] Oh, right, okay. So I think they've missed a trick. What they should have
[41:07.280 -> 41:12.400] done was offering the part of Gunter Steiner. They should have offered Gunter Steiner the part
[41:12.400 -> 41:17.680] of Fred Vasseur. Fred Vasseur could have played Mike Crack. Mike Crack could have played Toto
[41:17.680 -> 41:22.800] Wolf. James Vowles could have played Bruno Famin. Bruno Famin could have played Franz Tost. And we
[41:22.800 -> 41:28.480] could have carried on with this. Just swap it around a bit. See how these team principals fared in another uniform.
[41:28.480 -> 41:32.360] All right. People want to go and have their Christmas. I want to have their second, their
[41:32.360 -> 41:37.600] turkey pie. People want to have the leftovers, Crofty. It's time for dinner.
[41:37.600 -> 41:41.280] Time for the results, Matt. Right. Time for the results.
[41:41.280 -> 41:48.440] Finally. We've done some questionable maths and I think we've just about settled on an order with
[41:48.440 -> 41:49.440] our criteria.
[41:49.440 -> 41:58.520] So, in last place, but for reasons we've justified, Alessandro Alunibravi in 10th, Bruno Famin
[41:58.520 -> 42:02.920] in 9th, Mike Crack in 8th.
[42:02.920 -> 42:03.920] No!
[42:03.920 -> 42:04.920] Surprise!
[42:04.920 -> 42:08.640] It's gone quite, yeah, gone quite low. Ted, you put
[42:08.640 -> 42:13.140] him slightly higher. I had him 6th but carry on, yeah. Yeah, alright, okay. Franz Tost
[42:13.140 -> 42:22.520] in 7th. Yeah. Gunter Steiner in 6th, which I think is interesting, I think, you could
[42:22.520 -> 42:25.160] maybe put. I had Gunter good I had good to rate them
[42:25.160 -> 42:33.800] crack six but yeah carry yeah yeah okay the sir in fifth then wolf sorry
[42:33.800 -> 42:40.400] Toto wolf it's given their full titles in fourth James vowels in third position
[42:40.400 -> 42:51.000] huh Andrea Stella in second position which I think is an interesting result but
[42:51.000 -> 42:55.200] I think fully justified and I think after a brilliant season that's fair enough. And
[42:55.200 -> 42:57.560] then Christian Horner in first position.
[42:57.560 -> 43:03.680] Funny enough, given master and pupil, I think Vowles and Wolff are probably too close to
[43:03.680 -> 43:05.160] call in that order.
[43:05.160 -> 43:12.320] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're right next to each other in that order. So, very, very interesting.
[43:12.320 -> 43:13.800] Who would be a team principal?
[43:13.800 -> 43:19.080] Well, not me, for starters. It's been hard enough trying to rate them, let alone try
[43:19.080 -> 43:28.280] to do the job. Thankless task, for which their only recompense is first class flights, chauffeured cars and
[43:28.280 -> 43:35.880] million pounds salaries. No, I digress. It is a thankless task, but do you know what?
[43:35.880 -> 43:41.140] I bet it is one of the more fun things to do in life, leading a Formula One team and
[43:41.140 -> 43:46.660] potentially to victory. That list I do find fascinating. But I will
[43:46.660 -> 43:51.340] put the disclaimer in that James Vowles is team principal of the year, whatever our maths
[43:51.340 -> 43:53.660] suggests on that.
[43:53.660 -> 43:56.940] Forget the maths, forget everything we've just said. James Vowles, team principal of
[43:56.940 -> 43:57.940] the year.
[43:57.940 -> 44:01.340] And on that bombshell, Merry New Year, everybody.
[44:01.340 -> 44:09.220] Maybe it's a thankless task. It's a task that comes with, it must be a headache. You know, you think the driving is actually the fun bit where you get to drive the cars.
[44:09.220 -> 44:12.760] And then everybody comes to all the team bosses with all their complaints and their troubles
[44:12.760 -> 44:16.360] and team bosses has to have to fight. But, you know, just going back to the words of
[44:16.360 -> 44:20.360] the late Sir Stirling Moss, they are all racers. And with some of them, maybe at the bottom
[44:20.360 -> 44:26.120] of the list who we have a great deal of respect for, but probably aren't in the job
[44:26.120 -> 44:31.040] as a named team principal or only as an interim job.
[44:31.040 -> 44:32.700] We have the utmost respect for all of them
[44:32.700 -> 44:34.600] because it is a very difficult job
[44:34.600 -> 44:36.320] and they are all at the end of the day,
[44:36.320 -> 44:39.440] as the sterling would say, racers, but so are we.
[44:39.440 -> 44:41.080] And that's why we thought we'd have this bit of fun
[44:41.080 -> 44:43.400] just to see where we place them.
[44:43.400 -> 44:47.200] But please comment in the comments
[44:47.200 -> 44:51.040] as to where you have the team bosses of the year, because of course we want to hear
[44:51.040 -> 44:54.320] our viewers and our listeners' points of view as well.
[44:55.600 -> 45:00.640] 100%. I'm sure there will be some polite disagreement in the comments below. Right,
[45:00.640 -> 45:06.220] Ted, Crofty, thank you very much. That was thoroughly enjoyable, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
[45:06.220 -> 45:07.880] And to you guys, take care.