Podcast: Missed Apex
Published Date:
Tue, 14 Nov 2023 21:45:36 GMT
Duration:
1:29:23
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Spanners and Trumpets are joined by digital law expert Peter Wright for a bit of midweek madness as they shine a light deep into F1 legal corners. From Massa’s machinations to Andretti’s ace to what’s happening in Vegas definitely not staying there, no grandstand goes unfilled in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast.
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**Introduction:**
- Join hosts Spanners, Matt Trumpets, and legal expert Peter Wright for an in-depth analysis of Formula One's legal corners.
- Missed Apex Podcast is supported by Patreon and listeners can donate via their Tip Jar to help with their 2024 advertising campaign.
- Intro music by Gareth Machray.
**Legal Matters in Formula One:**
- Felipe Massa's pursuit of recognition as the rightful champion of the 2008 season.
- The status of Andretti's bid in the legal process and potential next steps.
**Las Vegas Grand Prix Preview:**
- Speculation on whether the Las Vegas Grand Prix will be a successful event.
- Discussion of track temperatures and tire performance in cold conditions.
- Pirelli's prescribed high tire pressures to prevent tire failure at high speeds.
- The potential impact of cold temperatures on tire warmup and grip.
- The risk of drivers losing grip and spinning out, especially at the start of the race.
- The challenge of finding the right balance between tire performance and durability.
- The possibility of a large field spread due to varying levels of tire management.
- Prediction of Max Verstappen dominating the race, potentially lapping everyone except the podium finishers.
- Speculation about the impact of the dense air on the performance of power units.
- The potential advantage for Mercedes if they can run their car at a low enough ride height.
- Discussion of Alpha Tauri's improved performance due to using Red Bull's rear suspension parts.
- The legality of customer arrangements and the sharing of intellectual property between teams.
- The cost cap and its impact on teams' ability to purchase components from other teams.
- The upcoming live watch-along event hosted by Matt and Brad at Tomo F1's studios in London.
**Conclusion:**
- The Las Vegas Grand Prix is a unique event with its night race format and focus on entertainment.
- The cold temperatures and unique track conditions present challenges for teams and drivers.
- The race is expected to be unpredictable and could potentially produce exciting racing. # Missed Apex Podcast Episode 695 Transcript Summary
## Introduction
* Spanners, Matt Trumpets, and Peter Wright, a digital law expert, discuss Formula One's legal complexities.
* Topics include Massa's machinations, Andretti's pursuit of an F1 team, and the upcoming Las Vegas Grand Prix.
## Las Vegas Grand Prix
* Ticket prices for the Las Vegas Grand Prix are high, leading to concerns about empty grandstands.
* The race is expected to be exciting due to its unique track layout and potential for drama.
* However, the best-case scenario is a nail-biting finish with multiple manufacturers involved.
## Andretti's F1 Bid
* Andretti's bid to enter Formula One has faced resistance from some existing teams.
* The FIA is expected to make a decision on Andretti's application soon.
* If Andretti's bid is successful, it could lead to a more competitive and exciting Formula One grid.
## Felipe Massa's Case
* Felipe Massa has threatened to sue the FIA over the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix incident known as "Crashgate."
* Massa's legal team has sent a letter before action to the FIA, but no formal legal proceedings have been initiated.
* The FIA has not publicly responded to Massa's allegations.
## Conclusion
* The upcoming Las Vegas Grand Prix is expected to be an exciting race, but concerns remain about ticket prices and the potential for empty grandstands.
* Andretti's bid to enter Formula One could shake up the grid and make the sport more competitive.
* Massa's legal case against the FIA is still in its early stages, and it remains to be seen whether he will pursue formal legal action. ## **Transcript Summary**
**Massa's Legal Action Against the FIA**
- Felipe Massa is considering legal action against the FIA over the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.
- Massa alleges that Renault deliberately crashed a car during the race to trigger a safety car, which ultimately affected the race outcome and cost him the championship title.
- The FIA has not yet taken any action on Massa's allegations, and it is unclear if they will.
- If Massa does decide to pursue legal action, it could be a lengthy and expensive process, with no guarantee of success.
**Andretti's Bid to Join Formula One**
- General Motors (GM) has officially applied to become a Formula One power unit manufacturer from 2028 onwards.
- GM would partner with Andretti Autosport, which has been seeking to enter Formula One for several years.
- The FIA has confirmed that it has received GM's application, but it is not yet clear if Andretti's bid will be successful.
- The current Formula One teams are reportedly opposed to Andretti's entry, arguing that it would dilute the value of their own teams.
**Peter Wright's Insights**
- Peter Wright, a digital law expert, provided his insights on the legal and commercial aspects of the above topics.
- Wright believes that Massa's legal action against the FIA is unlikely to succeed, as there is no precedent for a race result being annulled in Formula One history.
- Wright also discussed the challenges facing Andretti's bid to enter Formula One, including the opposition from the current teams and the need for Andretti to secure a significant amount of funding.
**Overall Message**
The podcast episode provided an in-depth analysis of the legal and commercial challenges facing Felipe Massa and Michael Andretti in their respective pursuits of justice and entry into Formula One. The discussion highlighted the complexities of the sport's governance and the challenges faced by new entrants. **Summary of the Podcast Episode**
**Introduction of participants:**
* Spanners
* Matt Trumpets
* Peter Wright, digital law expert
**Main Discussion Points:**
* **Legal complexities surrounding Andretti's bid to join Formula One:**
* The FIA's sole regulatory authority over Formula One, as per the last settlement, has created a complex situation.
* Liberty Media, the commercial rights holder, is not the sole decision-maker in Andretti's entry.
* The teams' significant influence and united front against Andretti's entry raise concerns about the governance and operation of the sport.
* The potential for an EU investigation due to anti-competitive practices if Andretti is denied entry.
* **Historical context of Formula One's legal battles:**
* Bernie Ecclestone's use of his power to control tracks and prevent other series from racing led to investigations and a settlement in the 1990s.
* The FIA was forced to lease its commercial rights to FOM as a result of the settlement.
* This led to the FIA becoming the sole regulator, while Liberty Media holds the commercial rights.
* **The role of the European Union (EU) in Formula One:**
* The EU's regulatory reach and influence due to the location of FOM companies and the large EU consumer base for Formula One.
* The EU's proactive approach to investigations and enforcement of competition law.
* The potential for EU involvement if Liberty Media is seen as breaching competition law by preventing Andretti's entry.
* **Speculation on Liberty Media's motivations and potential outcomes:**
* The teams' united opposition to Andretti's entry suggests Liberty Media may also be against it.
* Liberty Media and the teams could be concerned about the impact on the sport's stability and commercial viability if Andretti joins.
* The ongoing negotiations for a new Concorde Agreement and the upcoming regulatory changes add to the uncertainty.
* Corporate interests, such as GM and Ford, may influence decisions due to their investments in Formula One.
* **Peter Wright's opinion on Andretti's chances of joining Formula One:**
* He believes Andretti should be allowed to compete and that their entry would bring positive changes to the sport.
* He acknowledges the challenges Andretti faces, but he is hopeful that they will eventually be able to join the grid.
* He emphasizes the need for more opportunities for young drivers and a more open and competitive environment in Formula One.
**Conclusion:**
The discussion highlights the complex legal and commercial landscape surrounding Andretti's bid to join Formula One. The involvement of the FIA, Liberty Media, the teams, and the EU adds layers of complexity to the process. The outcome of Andretti's entry remains uncertain, but the podcast provides valuable insights into the various factors at play.
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[02:48.680 -> 02:55.880] You are listening to missed Apex podcast, we live at one.
[03:11.120 -> 03:17.160] Welcome to missed Apex podcast, I'm your host Richard Ready, but my friends call me Spanners. So let's be friends. We're dropping in midweek to update you on some things. So we're going
[03:17.160 -> 03:21.640] to find out if there's been any movement in Felipe Massa becoming the rightful champion
[03:21.640 -> 03:29.680] or whatever of 2008. And we'll also see where we think Andretti's bid is in the legal process
[03:29.880 -> 03:31.360] and what might happen next.
[03:31.560 -> 03:35.760] And we're going to lean on lawyer Peter Wright to help us with that.
[03:35.960 -> 03:40.520] But first, Matt and I will be looking forward to the next race and asking,
[03:40.720 -> 03:44.480] will Las Vegas F1 be rubbish or not?
[03:44.680 -> 03:46.640] But first, let me remind you that we are an
[03:46.640 -> 03:50.960] independent podcast produced in the podcasting shed with the kind permission of our better
[03:50.960 -> 03:55.000] halves. We aim to bring you a race review before your Monday morning commute. We might
[03:55.000 -> 04:01.200] be wrong, but we're first.
[04:01.200 -> 04:06.320] And joining me to decide whether Las Vegas is going to be rubbish or not, an American, Matt.
[04:06.320 -> 04:08.320] Two rumpets, hey Matt?
[04:08.320 -> 04:12.320] I did not know Pirelli sold round popsicles.
[04:12.320 -> 04:18.320] Yeah, so it's gonna be cold, man. So look, obviously you have the reputation as the guy who is obsessed with tires,
[04:18.320 -> 04:25.600] and this is the key thing to me, is that we are going to be running late at night with possibly
[04:25.600 -> 04:30.400] single digit or close temperatures in the form of Celsius.
[04:30.400 -> 04:37.200] So like 40 degrees Fahrenheit, 10 degrees Celsius, which is sort of unheard of, I think,
[04:37.200 -> 04:38.200] in Formula One.
[04:38.200 -> 04:43.280] So obviously I had to grab you for a bit of a Las Vegas preview, but we'll also be discussing
[04:43.280 -> 04:45.760] why I'm not there, what the chances are
[04:45.760 -> 04:50.960] of some decent racing, the track layout, now we've both had a proper look at it, the time zones,
[04:50.960 -> 04:55.440] and all the rest of it. So why don't we start though, Matt, let's fire into this
[04:56.160 -> 04:59.360] track temperatures thing. Are the tyres going to work?
[05:00.000 -> 05:06.880] Well, I hate to disappoint everybody, but outside of a very particular set of circumstances,
[05:06.880 -> 05:11.440] most likely to be found at the very beginning of the race, yeah, they're going to work.
[05:11.440 -> 05:16.960] And here's why. Everyone's been very focused on the actual temperatures in Las Vegas. Now,
[05:16.960 -> 05:21.840] I've gone and looked at the forecast for Friday night, Saturday morning qualifying,
[05:21.840 -> 05:31.000] and the following for the race. And it looks like mainly we're talking 12 to 14 C, which is 54 to 58 in freedom units.
[05:31.000 -> 05:39.760] And, and while that is cold, we've actually had races that were colder, notably Nürburgring,
[05:39.760 -> 05:46.760] the Eifel Grand Prix in 2020, the ambient temperatures were 10, and the track temperatures were only
[05:46.760 -> 05:53.040] 15 C. So we have seen cars working. And the thing to remember about this is everyone got
[05:53.040 -> 05:57.680] focused on these very low temperatures and being at nighttime, but that track is going
[05:57.680 -> 06:05.000] to be sitting out in the desert sunshine all day long, absorbing solar radiation.
[06:05.000 -> 06:10.720] So the track will be warmer than the ambient temperatures, but even if it wasn't, remember
[06:10.720 -> 06:15.680] these tires live in tire warmers right up until they get chucked onto the car.
[06:15.680 -> 06:20.720] Two hours, 70C, you throw them on the car, out the car goes.
[06:20.720 -> 06:24.840] They're not going to drop to ambient temperatures by the time they get to the end of the pit
[06:24.840 -> 06:25.240] lane.
[06:25.240 -> 06:29.800] Okay, alright, but those two you mentioned, the Eiffel Grand Prix, where was that?
[06:29.800 -> 06:30.800] Yep.
[06:30.800 -> 06:31.800] Where was that?
[06:31.800 -> 06:34.440] That was in 2020 at the Nürburgring.
[06:34.440 -> 06:43.320] Right, okay, so Nürburgring is, the Grand Prix circuit is quite, is it quite front limited
[06:43.320 -> 06:47.040] if we talk about that. There's a lot of corners where you're under high
[06:47.040 -> 06:54.640] load, long hairpins, lots of chicanes. So that might have given much more of an opportunity for
[06:54.640 -> 07:00.480] the tyres to warm up. Now we had a look at some onboards of the track layout and like wow, it is
[07:01.440 -> 07:07.400] like the first sector of Baku twice with the big long straights, nearly
[07:07.400 -> 07:10.560] nothing where you're going to be leaning on the front tyres.
[07:10.560 -> 07:15.280] So lots of traction zones, but where are they going to get temps into the front?
[07:15.280 -> 07:22.400] Well, obviously breaking into the slow corners, um, for the, and the fast turns, the fast
[07:22.400 -> 07:27.480] high speed turns. But I think it's worth noting that Pirelli has prescribed
[07:27.480 -> 07:30.580] sort of unusually high pressures.
[07:30.580 -> 07:34.560] I wanna say like 24.5 and 27.5 by memory.
[07:34.560 -> 07:37.080] I mean, these are like road car pressures.
[07:37.080 -> 07:38.320] And the other thing to-
[07:38.320 -> 07:40.080] No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[07:40.080 -> 07:43.200] Yeah, why is that good or bad?
[07:43.200 -> 07:44.640] You're saying to me these pressure stuff
[07:44.640 -> 07:45.600] and I see you having lots
[07:45.600 -> 07:50.880] of conversations in our private WhatsApp with the other guys about, oh, the tyre pressures have
[07:50.880 -> 07:55.840] dropped, I can't believe it. And I'm like, it's been so long now that I was too afraid to ask,
[07:55.840 -> 08:03.600] I'll do it here. I don't really know what that does. Well, it essentially makes the tyre stiffer
[08:08.560 -> 08:13.440] it essentially makes the tire stiffer, so that there is less flex, especially in the sidewall. And the reason we see them this high, and it's the same reason why they're high at Silverstone,
[08:13.440 -> 08:17.840] for example, that's why they even had to bring this new tire in, is that when you go through
[08:17.840 -> 08:23.360] a high-speed turn, you're putting so much energy into that tire, that if the pressures were low,
[08:24.000 -> 08:25.280] the tire would flex
[08:25.280 -> 08:30.240] and wobble a lot and potentially fail at the sidewall in the construction, in
[08:30.240 -> 08:30.920] other words.
[08:31.280 -> 08:35.440] So Pirelli, in order to protect themselves, and to protect the drivers,
[08:35.440 -> 08:39.280] because obviously the last thing you want is a tire failing at 300 kilometers
[08:39.280 -> 08:44.360] an hour through a turn, is is they run the pressures up to be sure that the
[08:44.360 -> 08:47.440] tires will stay intact throughout
[08:47.440 -> 08:53.920] the entire lap. Now, one of the side effects of that is it makes the amount of the tire that
[08:53.920 -> 09:00.480] touches the road less, which means you're putting more energy into a smaller thing,
[09:00.480 -> 09:09.600] which actually adds to the heat a little bit. But there are other tricks. But the thing that I want to point out though is really what springs to mind is,
[09:09.600 -> 09:13.280] do you remember the race in Australia this year?
[09:13.280 -> 09:15.680] Yeah, the race of the many flags.
[09:15.680 -> 09:23.760] And at the end, they did a standing start and the tires had gotten cold because they'd been
[09:23.760 -> 09:25.360] sat in the pit lane for the red flag.
[09:25.360 -> 09:25.600] Yeah.
[09:25.600 -> 09:30.880] And they did the standing start and everybody got to the first corner and not everybody figured
[09:30.880 -> 09:35.920] out how to stop the car on those cold tires. If there's going to be a problem that's not
[09:35.920 -> 09:41.120] caused by a red flag, I fully expect the start to be where that happens because the cars are
[09:41.120 -> 09:47.160] going to go around pretty slowly and sit for a long time and they're going to be heavy and full of fuel.
[09:47.160 -> 09:50.100] The brakes are going to be cooling, the tires are going to be cooling.
[09:50.100 -> 09:56.000] So really the start of the race is I think where we see the most jeopardy based on tire
[09:56.000 -> 09:57.000] temperature.
[09:57.000 -> 10:00.000] I think once they get up and moving, they will be okay.
[10:00.000 -> 10:03.200] And certainly coming out of the pits, they should have enough temperature left in the
[10:03.200 -> 10:06.880] tires that they give enough grip to be safe.
[10:06.880 -> 10:11.640] So actually Haas and Alfa Romeo have got a huge part to play here because if they take
[10:11.640 -> 10:15.540] a long time to take up their positions at the back of the grid, that's going to really
[10:15.540 -> 10:17.000] affect the guys at the front.
[10:17.000 -> 10:19.900] So finally, they can have an effect on the race.
[10:19.900 -> 10:21.480] So I don't know.
[10:21.480 -> 10:23.280] So you're being quite optimistic.
[10:23.280 -> 10:27.080] They've said, okay, high tyre pressure.
[10:27.080 -> 10:30.400] What's the disadvantage of that, I guess, is less grip?
[10:30.400 -> 10:36.800] Well, yeah, less contact patch, so less grip and less flexibility.
[10:36.800 -> 10:40.920] So it is harder to work the tyres a bit at the higher pressure.
[10:40.920 -> 10:45.520] So to me, that feels then like that's not going to help anything when you talk
[10:45.520 -> 10:52.320] about a a cold track. So is this really dumb to say a colder temperature in general on the track
[10:52.320 -> 11:00.480] will give you less grip or more grip? But less heat. So the tires won't work as well.
[11:01.200 -> 11:07.600] It makes it harder to keep the... at a certain point, it makes it hard to keep the tires in the window, especially...
[11:07.600 -> 11:13.560] Again, the other thing to look out for is if people try to run really long stints, as
[11:13.560 -> 11:20.120] the rubber comes off the tire and sort of just mechanically being degraded by the asphalt,
[11:20.120 -> 11:24.400] it gets harder to keep the core of the tire temperature up.
[11:24.400 -> 11:26.820] And again, if you slip out of that zone,
[11:26.820 -> 11:29.620] then suddenly where you normally break for turn one,
[11:29.620 -> 11:32.300] which will be the biggest problem
[11:32.300 -> 11:34.920] after all those really long straights,
[11:34.920 -> 11:37.140] you're gonna break there and you're gonna turn
[11:37.140 -> 11:39.760] and nothing's gonna happen
[11:39.760 -> 11:42.700] because the tires will not have enough temperature
[11:42.700 -> 11:44.960] to grip in the manner you expect.
[11:44.960 -> 11:45.040] And there's not a lot of forgiveness into turn one there. the tires will not have enough temperature to grip in the manner you expect.
[11:45.040 -> 11:48.920] And there's not a lot of forgiveness into turn one there.
[11:48.920 -> 11:50.360] There's not a lot of runoff.
[11:50.360 -> 11:52.160] So there's a load of unknowns here.
[11:52.160 -> 11:57.120] So we really won't know as we get into FP1 because it's a brand new track surface and
[11:57.120 -> 11:58.520] that can go either way.
[11:58.520 -> 12:07.440] So we got to Sochi when it first became a racetrack after the Olympics in Sochi, and they found that basically
[12:07.440 -> 12:12.800] the surface didn't wear the tyres at all. So they got to a point where Nico Rosberg,
[12:12.800 -> 12:18.800] he pitted for hards, I think, in that inaugural race after his lock-up. So he pitted on the first
[12:18.800 -> 12:25.840] lap and then did the rest of the race at the same pace as everybody else on his hards, absolutely no problem and finished second.
[12:25.840 -> 12:30.800] So you don't really know until you get to it, what kind of wear you're going to have.
[12:30.800 -> 12:33.280] So there's much more than just the temperature.
[12:33.280 -> 12:35.640] The track surface is going to play a big part.
[12:35.640 -> 12:36.640] Yeah.
[12:36.640 -> 12:41.160] And I know a big chunk of it has been repaved for the Grand Prix.
[12:41.160 -> 12:47.440] But unlike with the sprint races, they're going to have three full practice sessions
[12:47.440 -> 12:53.520] here to understand what's going on. And even for the teams that struggle with tire warmup,
[12:53.520 -> 13:00.160] there's suspension tricks you can play. You can play with the amount of brake and rim heating
[13:00.160 -> 13:04.800] that you use. All these things can be helpful to a greater or lesser extent,
[13:05.200 -> 13:15.120] That you use all these things can be helpful to a greater or lesser extent. Dealing with that said if they do fall out for any reason either there's a red flag and they have to sit around a long time or if you know.
[13:15.120 -> 13:28.920] If you take if you go for a super long stand then yeah we could see some issues but but on the whole i don't think we're going to be out of, I don't think we're looking at a track temperature of like 5C. It's not going to be like at Barcelona when
[13:28.920 -> 13:34.840] it snowed and no one could run because it was 0C outside. It's not going to be that,
[13:34.840 -> 13:35.840] that bad.
[13:35.840 -> 13:41.440] The forecast I saw for the race, so Saturday night in America, is something like 10 degrees
[13:41.440 -> 13:45.640] Celsius, which is what, 40 Fahrenheit. And you go, well,
[13:45.640 -> 13:50.800] in that case, I've always been told that you can't run in, say, the UK, you can't run in
[13:50.800 -> 13:59.680] the UK in autumn because it would be far too cold. But it's 12 degrees Celsius today. So
[13:59.680 -> 14:03.640] doesn't that just throw that argument out the window now? So now that we can go in Vegas
[14:03.640 -> 14:10.160] in those kinds of temperatures, why is the European season completely restricted to May, June, July, August?
[14:11.200 -> 14:13.840] I would add rain to that cold, and then that would probably be why.
[14:13.840 -> 14:19.840] You throw the rain in our face. Yeah, it has been pretty miserable today. And the thing is,
[14:19.840 -> 14:26.000] like, we're used to the rain, but surely, you know, we want rain. So there you go. If you want a rainy
[14:26.560 -> 14:32.000] Silverstone, if you want a rainy British Grand Prix, basically schedule it for October or November
[14:32.000 -> 14:37.360] and you're guaranteed misery. But instead, they do it on the one hot day of the year that Britain
[14:37.360 -> 14:42.880] gets so that everyone in the crowd sits there and absolutely cooks whilst drinking lager.
[14:42.880 -> 14:45.520] Yeah. And the other thing I should just add here is
[14:45.520 -> 14:52.680] they are also bringing the softest of the compounds. So again, you're gonna have
[14:52.680 -> 14:57.520] maximum help with the grip. I think what's unknown is running that super
[14:57.520 -> 15:02.520] duper long straight, some people may have issues with their fronts, but by time we
[15:02.520 -> 15:06.280] get to the race, and even qualifying, they
[15:06.280 -> 15:11.480] should have done enough running to understand the parameters they have to deal with, both
[15:11.480 -> 15:13.960] the drivers and the teams.
[15:13.960 -> 15:20.080] Alright, so there's one scenario where they get there, the track surface doesn't really
[15:20.080 -> 15:24.280] have any abrasive effect on the tyres, but yeah, it's a bit cold and slippy.
[15:24.280 -> 15:25.200] So I think that's our worst
[15:25.200 -> 15:31.040] case scenario for the race is that there's no wear so we don't get any tyre strategy but also
[15:31.040 -> 15:36.480] the tyres don't really work so we get a lot of field spread. And I think this is my next big fear
[15:36.480 -> 15:41.680] is these are very challenging circumstances and yes you're right they'll have three full
[15:41.680 -> 15:49.720] practice sessions in order to come up to speed. But who is going to overcome those challenges better? It's going to be the top
[15:49.720 -> 15:54.760] teams, isn't it? So Red Bull will do it a little bit better than Ferrari and Mercedes,
[15:54.760 -> 16:00.820] who probably have a bit more time and a bit more success in overcoming that than Williams.
[16:00.820 -> 16:05.960] So my fear is that overcoming all these problems, instead of just concentrating on the optimum
[16:05.960 -> 16:12.440] performance on a sunny day in Silverstone, what you're going to have is massive field
[16:12.440 -> 16:13.440] spread.
[16:13.440 -> 16:15.680] So I'm going to make a prediction right now.
[16:15.680 -> 16:21.360] I think Verstappen laps everyone except the podium places.
[16:21.360 -> 16:22.960] He's going to lap P4.
[16:22.960 -> 16:23.960] That's my prediction.
[16:23.960 -> 16:24.960] Okay, good.
[16:24.960 -> 16:28.000] Yeah. Not necessarily mine.
[16:28.000 -> 16:33.720] No, but that's the worst case scenario for me, is that the field spread makes it massively
[16:33.720 -> 16:38.480] uncompetitive. So yes, you will be able to overtake on those long straights. I assume
[16:38.480 -> 16:45.280] that that is a DRS zone as well, that those straights are DRS zones, two DRS zones? Yeah, there are two DRS zones.
[16:45.280 -> 16:52.320] And I've seen speculation because again, we're in a desert, we're at night, that it might
[16:52.320 -> 17:00.640] actually be really easy for dragier teams to keep up with faster teams with the DRS,
[17:00.640 -> 17:05.040] with the slipstream, might actually make things a bit easier.
[17:05.040 -> 17:11.680] And also, the more mechanically minded of my friends have been talking about how the
[17:11.680 -> 17:15.760] colder, denser air might affect the performance of the power unit.
[17:15.760 -> 17:22.800] So we might see some interesting surprises there, but it's all a lot of speculation right
[17:22.800 -> 17:23.800] now.
[17:23.800 -> 17:24.800] Okay.
[17:24.800 -> 17:28.360] Well, you've said, if you said the opposite of those things, if you said thin air, then
[17:28.360 -> 17:31.720] you'd go, ugh, the Mercedes struggle.
[17:31.720 -> 17:35.920] Because they struggle to get cooling in, so when you've got thin air, they struggle to
[17:35.920 -> 17:37.640] get enough air to cool.
[17:37.640 -> 17:38.640] So while the opposite of that is-
[17:38.640 -> 17:42.200] As I Google Las Vegas altitude for you, you keep talking.
[17:42.200 -> 17:44.640] Oh, so is it the opposite of Mexico?
[17:44.640 -> 17:45.360] Is it very low? Is that what you're driving at? But yeah, so is it the opposite of Mexico? Is it very low?
[17:45.920 -> 17:49.760] Is that what you're driving at? No, I don't think it's super low.
[17:49.760 -> 17:55.440] But if you have then a lot of dense air, that is the opposite of Mercedes Kryptonite.
[17:55.440 -> 18:01.280] And obviously Mercedes is one of the dragier packages out there as well. So also a big thing
[18:01.280 -> 18:06.560] with Mercedes is, are they going to be able to run the ride height at
[18:06.560 -> 18:13.360] the proper level to get the results that they had in Circuit of the Americas and at Mexico,
[18:13.360 -> 18:16.160] where they were able to be kind of a front running team?
[18:16.160 -> 18:19.960] Whereas in the last Grand Prix, they said, well, we didn't want to risk it, so we ended
[18:19.960 -> 18:22.000] up with higher ride heights.
[18:22.000 -> 18:26.640] So will the surface allow them to run low enough to get this ground
[18:26.640 -> 18:30.160] effect working? Because they seem to have made a step forward with ground effect.
[18:30.960 -> 18:37.040] Yeah, I think that it will. I think a lot of the track has been surfaced, newly surfaced,
[18:37.040 -> 18:46.640] and when they do that, they are pretty strict about how bumpy it is or how uniform it has to be. So that's going to be a
[18:46.640 -> 18:52.800] help really to all the teams. And I think particularly for Mercedes, in Brazil, they were
[18:52.800 -> 18:58.080] running into an issue where they were turning a lot and the right height they ran was making their
[18:58.080 -> 19:09.480] downforce inconsistent because they are worse in the turns. And this goes back to the rear suspension and the side impact protection that we talked
[19:09.480 -> 19:13.880] about them being stuck with the zero pod design back there, basically.
[19:13.880 -> 19:17.200] And so fundamentally somewhat compromised.
[19:17.200 -> 19:21.040] Now, interesting, you've noticed how Alpha Tauri has been doing better, right?
[19:21.040 -> 19:22.040] Oh, don't.
[19:22.040 -> 19:23.040] I am...
[19:23.040 -> 19:24.040] Don't.
[19:24.040 -> 19:25.000] Have you noticed that?
[19:25.000 -> 19:27.880] Yes, I'm triggered by the story because I've just found out why.
[19:27.880 -> 19:29.280] So basically, they've...
[19:29.280 -> 19:33.840] Well, you'll say it better than me, but they've got all the rear suspension parts from Red
[19:33.840 -> 19:34.840] Bull.
[19:34.840 -> 19:35.840] The RB19.
[19:35.840 -> 19:36.840] They just have them.
[19:36.840 -> 19:37.840] They just have them.
[19:37.840 -> 19:42.160] Now, what they did was they set up their car at the beginning of the year so they could
[19:42.160 -> 19:45.920] put these parts on when they got to it.
[19:46.480 -> 19:51.600] And having put those parts on, suddenly you can see how much farther up the grid they are,
[19:52.160 -> 19:58.720] contrast to Haas, who has Ferrari's rear end, and you can see that there is clearly something to
[19:58.720 -> 20:08.120] the Red Bull rear suspension setup that is giving them a huge advantage in combination with the other aerodynamic
[20:08.120 -> 20:10.320] parts they have screwed onto the car.
[20:10.320 -> 20:12.760] They should just do that all the time.
[20:12.760 -> 20:14.280] They're the same team.
[20:14.280 -> 20:16.760] There's not two completely separate and independent teams.
[20:16.760 -> 20:17.760] They're the same team.
[20:17.760 -> 20:20.520] Orders can go up and down between those teams.
[20:20.520 -> 20:22.160] Personnel can be swapped between those teams.
[20:22.160 -> 20:24.360] The drivers are loaned between those teams.
[20:24.360 -> 20:26.920] They are one four-car team.
[20:26.920 -> 20:28.840] So I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.
[20:28.840 -> 20:32.460] And in fact, for next season, they've already signaled that they're going to use a lot more
[20:32.460 -> 20:36.200] of the Red Bull parts, a lot more in common.
[20:36.200 -> 20:42.480] They're basically moving to the Haas model with Alpha Tauri, which considering Red Bull
[20:42.480 -> 20:45.760] is the team selling them all the bits, is going to
[20:45.760 -> 20:49.320] be really good for whatever they're going to become next year.
[20:49.320 -> 20:51.560] Because I think they're, are they not ditching the name too?
[20:51.560 -> 20:52.560] Yep.
[20:52.560 -> 20:54.680] I think they're becoming Hugo Boss or something like that.
[20:54.680 -> 20:56.120] I don't think we've heard quite yet.
[20:56.120 -> 20:57.120] Okay.
[20:57.120 -> 21:00.600] So I've always been surprised that they don't just do that more because I've never understood,
[21:00.600 -> 21:04.520] like, if you've got Yuki Tsunoda and you're lining him up to potentially be a Red Bull
[21:04.520 -> 21:08.000] driver one day, don't you want him at the sharp end? Don't you want him fighting
[21:08.000 -> 21:12.880] for higher points? And then when he does go to Red Bull, it's not such a big shot. But
[21:12.880 -> 21:18.080] they've sort of let that team just meh its way through the last few seasons.
[21:18.080 -> 21:30.640] Yeah, I mean, because there are rules about who can move where and what they can talk about. And then also for sponsors, and who knows what the corporate parents really want here. Maybe
[21:30.640 -> 21:36.560] they wanted AlphaTauri to forge their own identity, or maybe their technical team really believed
[21:37.200 -> 21:44.080] it was better for them to keep things simple, rather than, like we saw with Aston, get completely
[21:44.080 -> 21:45.760] lost when they borrowed the Mercedes
[21:45.760 -> 21:51.200] concept. And they changed the rules a little bit and Aston's were completely, okay, maybe not the
[21:51.200 -> 21:55.680] first time that's happened, but you get my point. Actually, that was my first instinct. I'm like,
[21:55.680 -> 22:03.120] oh yeah, well, Aston Martin copied Mercedes and they got pinged for it. Why aren't Alfa Tauri
[22:03.120 -> 22:08.880] being pinged for it? But I quickly guessed that, well firstly Aston Martin didn't ask, did they?
[22:08.880 -> 22:14.960] They just sort of nicked it with the brake ducts and the green Mercedes or the pink Mercedes,
[22:14.960 -> 22:15.960] wasn't it?
[22:15.960 -> 22:17.040] When it was racing point.
[22:17.040 -> 22:22.640] So that's them looking, like using laser scanners or looking at images and just trying to get
[22:22.640 -> 22:24.480] inspiration from it.
[22:24.480 -> 22:26.400] A whole lot of stuff got banned after that.
[22:26.400 -> 22:27.040] Yeah.
[22:27.040 -> 22:34.240] So this is more like a customer arrangement, which is completely legal and above board.
[22:34.240 -> 22:35.040] Yeah.
[22:35.040 -> 22:41.920] You'd be happy to know that however else you might decide to impeach the FIA as a regulatory body,
[22:41.920 -> 22:47.560] they have fairly straightforward standards as to things you have to either own the intellectual
[22:47.560 -> 22:54.840] property of or design on your own and things you can buy from other teams as suppliers.
[22:54.840 -> 23:01.960] And there's been a move to allow the midfield teams to buy more stuff to reduce the field
[23:01.960 -> 23:10.720] spread and make things more competitive. I agree with that. And that's not a problem. That's a good thing, unless the team you're buying them from is Ferrari.
[23:10.720 -> 23:17.520] Yeah. So obviously you've still got the cost cap. So if you decide to buy a front wing that's for
[23:17.520 -> 23:22.720] sale and build your concept around that, there's no real problem with that. Like what is to stop
[23:22.720 -> 23:25.040] Williams saying to Mercedes you know, Mercedes,
[23:25.040 -> 23:28.880] oh, you're... Well, that you do have to design on your own. The front wing for definite. Yeah,
[23:28.880 -> 23:33.200] I couldn't buy, you couldn't buy Mercedes front wing, but you could buy their rear suspension.
[23:33.200 -> 23:37.440] You could buy their gearbox. Can you buy their side pods? I'd imagine they're going pretty cheap
[23:37.440 -> 23:42.320] at the moment. Well, I mean, they don't have them to sell. Exactly, zero side pods. All right. Zero
[23:42.320 -> 23:46.360] pods. So you've turned this into a tech time. I was trying to talk about Vegas.
[23:46.360 -> 23:47.360] This is your fault.
[23:47.360 -> 23:48.360] You've derailed this.
[23:48.360 -> 23:52.920] You just asked the question and I just, I can't help it.
[23:52.920 -> 23:55.600] It just naturally comes up.
[23:55.600 -> 23:57.800] But you want to talk about Vegas?
[23:57.800 -> 23:58.800] How did we get there?
[23:58.800 -> 23:59.800] What do you want to know?
[23:59.800 -> 24:00.800] I've been there.
[24:00.800 -> 24:01.800] Have you?
[24:01.800 -> 24:02.800] Have you been there?
[24:02.800 -> 24:07.680] No, and I wanted to be there and there was there was scope for us to do
[24:08.520 -> 24:10.520] activities around
[24:11.440 -> 24:18.220] 70 50 50 and then that just kept coming down and then I had a moment of hope that we could even you know
[24:18.220 -> 24:22.360] Get a proper like access and you know, it'd be all expenses paid
[24:22.360 -> 24:25.160] And but then that that's's fallen through as well,
[24:25.160 -> 24:27.200] and I'm not going, but that's fine.
[24:27.200 -> 24:28.700] That does give me the opportunity to go
[24:28.700 -> 24:33.700] and hang out with Tomo F1 in his fancy studios in London.
[24:33.700 -> 24:34.920] So me and Brad are going down there
[24:34.920 -> 24:39.640] to do a live watch along starting at 5.30 a.m.
[24:39.640 -> 24:42.080] And so I'll see if I can find the link to that stream.
[24:42.080 -> 24:43.980] And you can watch along with me,
[24:43.980 -> 24:45.620] and then I'll be doing their podcast,
[24:45.620 -> 24:48.060] then we'll do our podcast at midday
[24:48.060 -> 24:49.740] and then that means, Matt,
[24:49.740 -> 24:53.580] that you are watching a Grand Prix in your home country
[24:53.580 -> 24:55.860] that starts at 1 a.m., your time.
[24:55.860 -> 24:58.380] It might as well be in Australia, if I'm being honest.
[24:58.380 -> 25:01.340] This is crazy, this is the crazy part to me.
[25:01.340 -> 25:04.800] So obviously, Las Vegas, it has to be at night,
[25:04.800 -> 25:05.300] which is why we've got the cold temperatures. It has to be. So obviously Las Vegas, it has to be at night, which is why we've
[25:05.300 -> 25:09.620] got the cold temperatures. It has to be at night because Las Vegas is your equivalent
[25:09.620 -> 25:13.540] of Blackpool, which you won't know, you won't have heard of Blackpool Illuminations.
[25:13.540 -> 25:14.540] I have. I have.
[25:14.540 -> 25:19.480] Okay. So that's the thing that Dads say, and I even said it the other day. I went upstairs
[25:19.480 -> 25:24.580] and every single bedroom had the light on, and I went, it looks like Blackpool Illuminations
[25:24.580 -> 25:25.360] up here. I'm like, oh, sorry, Dad. And then I went, it looks like Blackpool Illuminations up here.
[25:25.360 -> 25:26.240] I'm like, oh, sorry, dad.
[25:26.240 -> 25:28.000] And then I went from room to room.
[25:28.000 -> 25:29.320] They went to run up the stairs.
[25:29.320 -> 25:30.580] I'm like, no, I'll do it.
[25:30.580 -> 25:32.160] I went to room to room, turning off lights
[25:32.160 -> 25:34.720] and tutting loudly and complaining.
[25:34.720 -> 25:36.880] So that's your, Las Vegas is your-
[25:36.880 -> 25:38.280] What a place, Joyce.
[25:38.280 -> 25:40.880] It's your version of Blackpool.
[25:40.880 -> 25:42.760] And it's all about the illuminations,
[25:42.760 -> 25:44.560] the flashing lights, the neon.
[25:44.560 -> 25:50.400] You've got that wonderful sphere thing that you can put any of the graphics on. What's that called?
[25:50.400 -> 25:51.400] Is it called the sphere?
[25:51.400 -> 25:52.400] The sphere.
[25:52.400 -> 25:55.960] I think it's called the sphere. I love it when it's got a big smiley face that watches
[25:55.960 -> 26:02.720] trains and watches planes. It's really freaky. And apparently F1 have control of that for
[26:02.720 -> 26:05.840] the race as well. So it will primarily be used for advertising.
[26:06.160 -> 26:07.320] But that's what they're going for.
[26:07.360 -> 26:10.800] It has to be at night so that it can be illuminated.
[26:11.280 -> 26:11.920] But the sensible...
[26:11.920 -> 26:18.600] Outside of Monaco, like Singapore, like all these races, they like the night races
[26:18.600 -> 26:20.200] because they look good on TV.
[26:20.320 -> 26:20.640] Yeah.
[26:20.680 -> 26:22.600] So it's a destination Grand Prix.
[26:22.640 -> 26:30.160] It looks good on TV, but you could also have it a little earlier if you wanted to not have it quite as cold. But the reason you can't
[26:30.160 -> 26:37.680] do that is because F1, as American-owned and as American-centric the drive for new viewers
[26:37.680 -> 26:46.400] has become, they are still not stupid enough to put on that race when Europeans are asleep. So if you did it a few hours earlier,
[26:46.400 -> 26:52.720] so that it would be a 10pm race for you, and it would be a seven evening race in Las Vegas still,
[26:53.360 -> 26:58.960] it would be two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning for us. So for Britain at the moment,
[26:58.960 -> 27:07.840] it's 6am, for mainland Europe it is 7am. So they still will not have it while we are sleeping. So
[27:07.840 -> 27:11.440] I think that's quite telling. And that's how they seem to have got themselves in this fudge
[27:11.440 -> 27:17.600] where, yes it's at night, tick, but the people in their own country on the east coast are
[27:17.600 -> 27:23.760] asleep, but it does mean that the Europeans can set an alarm at a somewhat civilised time.
[27:23.760 -> 27:26.080] It's a real fudge how they've got to
[27:26.080 -> 27:27.080] that point.
[27:27.080 -> 27:34.780] Yeah, it is. And I think there's a bit of a move because that's not an unusual time
[27:34.780 -> 27:40.380] for, say, a college football game out West to be on, or a basketball game. I think they're
[27:40.380 -> 27:45.800] trying to capture a different sports market in that part of the country,
[27:45.800 -> 27:46.800] maybe.
[27:46.800 -> 27:47.800] I don't know.
[27:47.800 -> 27:52.160] I'm not quite sure what they're up to with this and whether or not it will continue to
[27:52.160 -> 27:54.960] happen at exactly this time.
[27:54.960 -> 27:57.880] But I watch enough of them.
[27:57.880 -> 27:59.640] Australia is bad.
[27:59.640 -> 28:01.480] Japan, same thing.
[28:01.480 -> 28:06.120] I mean, bad from an East Coast point of view, time-wise, not bad in terms of the racing,
[28:06.120 -> 28:09.600] because that's pretty good, at least at Japan, it usually is.
[28:09.600 -> 28:15.960] So if it was boxing, they would have no problem just having it at whatever time, and it wouldn't
[28:15.960 -> 28:21.280] matter that the Europeans were asleep or had to stay up until two in the morning, but F1,
[28:21.280 -> 28:26.080] it still shows, you know, they're not willing to write us off just yet. We're still
[28:26.080 -> 28:27.920] somewhat of a factor in the TV schedule.
[28:27.920 -> 28:32.720] Yeah, yeah. Although, I don't know, like you mentioned boxing, it wouldn't be surprising
[28:32.720 -> 28:41.200] for a championship bout to start pretty late. And I know things like MMA oftentimes will
[28:41.200 -> 28:49.720] go late if the big bout will be on pretty late at night. So if you're watching it, even on the East Coast, it might be an 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock
[28:49.720 -> 28:50.720] start.
[28:50.720 -> 28:53.040] So we're not too, too far off of that.
[28:53.040 -> 28:57.480] And I think maybe that's the vibe they're going for, because it is in Vegas where you
[28:57.480 -> 29:02.720] have the championship heavyweight boxing fights for so, so many years.
[29:02.720 -> 29:06.560] I think they're trying to sort of get that same excitement
[29:06.560 -> 29:13.440] to the people that come to see it in person, however many that's going to be. And then
[29:13.440 -> 29:18.720] obviously for the people watching it, they want to generate that same, all right, we've seen,
[29:18.720 -> 29:22.960] there's no preliminaries, but you know, like the buildup will be the same across the weekend.
[29:22.960 -> 29:27.180] And then you have the big championship about Saturday night, and that's kind of exciting.
[29:27.180 -> 29:29.740] So that's an interesting thing that you bring up there.
[29:29.740 -> 29:33.340] How many people are actually going to go and see this?
[29:33.340 -> 29:35.860] So I wanted to get out there.
[29:35.860 -> 29:40.420] And like I said, there was some half opportunities for us to go and do stuff.
[29:40.420 -> 29:42.700] They've all fallen through, so it's fine.
[29:42.700 -> 29:46.920] But the best one would be, obviously, for us to be paid to go out there and do stuff,
[29:46.920 -> 29:49.280] which nearly did happen.
[29:49.280 -> 29:51.360] The second best option would be
[29:51.360 -> 29:53.360] to get out there economically
[29:53.360 -> 29:56.040] and then be able to take opportunities
[29:56.040 -> 29:57.620] once we're already out there.
[29:57.620 -> 29:59.560] For example, there was a podcast studio
[29:59.560 -> 30:01.000] that I was talking to.
[30:01.000 -> 30:06.800] And you go, okay, for how high profile this whole event is, I was looking at it as a
[30:06.800 -> 30:11.840] business investment. And actually, the flights, which I assumed would be very expensive,
[30:11.840 -> 30:18.000] say, Waden, I could get there for like 400 quid. I would have to stop in Alaska somewhere,
[30:18.560 -> 30:22.400] and it was a total of 24 hours to get there, but that's fine. I don't mind travelling.
[30:22.400 -> 30:31.440] And hotel rooms were completely standard price. So, looking at you could Airbnb or hotel for about $100 a night. That wasn't a
[30:31.440 -> 30:38.320] massive deal either. But the tickets were still in excess of $1,000. So like £1,200, I think,
[30:38.320 -> 30:43.600] was the three day pass. And there's no point going all the way there if you're not going to see cars.
[30:43.600 -> 30:48.160] But then we're hearing reports that ticket sales are incredibly low. So I haven't got anything
[30:48.160 -> 30:54.960] concrete. There was a newspaper article from the circuit representatives that were saying
[30:55.520 -> 30:59.440] we're expecting it to be sold out, but then we're hearing other people saying,
[30:59.440 -> 31:09.040] now we've been told that sales are just in the bin at like 10%, 20%. Even if they didn't sell 50%, that
[31:09.040 -> 31:14.880] would surely be considered a failure. But what would be more annoying is to see empty
[31:14.880 -> 31:20.560] seats in that grandstand when I would have paid a few hundred quid, which to me feels
[31:20.560 -> 31:24.240] like a very reasonable price to go and watch a Grand Prix.
[31:24.240 -> 31:25.160] The first Silverstone weekend I attended, to go and watch a Grand Prix. You know, the first
[31:25.160 -> 31:29.600] Silverstone weekend I attended, one of the most popular Grand Prix in the world, it was
[31:29.600 -> 31:37.000] £300 for a three-day general admission ticket. To look at like £1,200, like obviously no.
[31:37.000 -> 31:43.640] I don't know who's paying those prices, but like obviously no. And that feels like a fail
[31:43.640 -> 31:45.820] if there's empty grandstand seats.
[31:45.820 -> 31:48.080] So I don't know what that's doing for the city.
[31:48.080 -> 31:53.660] They've blocked out views from everyone who isn't deliberately going there, so no one's
[31:53.660 -> 31:56.680] going to accidentally see the Formula One.
[31:56.680 -> 32:02.720] You're going to have to, on purpose, spend 1200 quid, or $1200, to go and see that event.
[32:02.720 -> 32:05.360] Now if the NFL came to Colchester, where I live,
[32:06.000 -> 32:12.160] and played at our local stadium, but charged me a thousand pounds, like I wouldn't go. I'd go,
[32:12.160 -> 32:16.880] there's an event that costs a thousand pounds, I'm not going. I just, I really don't understand
[32:16.880 -> 32:27.640] the pricing or bringing it to a city if it's closed off to everyone except people who would casually pay £1,200 to try a new thing?
[32:27.640 -> 32:33.440] Well, I think first of all, there are probably more people who will do that than you think there
[32:33.440 -> 32:41.720] are. Where are they? Eat them! Eat those people! Well, please send us your money. Patreon.com.
[32:41.720 -> 32:48.800] Patreon.com. Thank you. And we've had some new patrons this week as well, and it's been very nice to see because
[32:48.800 -> 32:53.280] it makes me and Matt breathe in and out a little bit less heavy because we know that
[32:53.280 -> 32:56.440] we can prioritize MistApex over other work.
[32:56.440 -> 32:57.440] Thank you.
[32:57.440 -> 33:00.880] But yeah, sorry, I went off on a rant there because...
[33:00.880 -> 33:01.880] I was just going to go.
[33:01.880 -> 33:05.040] I would be surprised to see any empty grandstands.
[33:05.040 -> 33:06.040] Really?
[33:06.040 -> 33:07.040] Okay.
[33:07.040 -> 33:09.780] Well, they have this thing, surge pricing.
[33:09.780 -> 33:14.400] Maybe if you've ever taken an Uber or Lyft at rush hour in the rain when it's cold, you've
[33:14.400 -> 33:18.320] noticed that your 10 block trip costs you $7,000.
[33:18.320 -> 33:22.680] But if you happen to be taking that trip in the middle of the day when it's sunny, it
[33:22.680 -> 33:29.960] costs you $10. Well, I think they wanted to sell based on exclusivity.
[33:29.960 -> 33:35.840] And it may be that all the super-duper VIP stuff, I mean, they were like $50,000 packages
[33:35.840 -> 33:37.860] being offered by hotels.
[33:37.860 -> 33:43.200] Probably all of that is sold out because anyone who has the kind of money to say, yes, I can
[33:43.200 -> 33:45.480] afford that, is really not worried about spending that kind of money to say, yes, I can afford that, is really not worried
[33:45.480 -> 33:47.840] about spending that kind of money in any event.
[33:47.840 -> 33:50.920] And it's a new thing, and they'll probably want to be there.
[33:50.920 -> 33:56.760] But what I will expect to happen is as we get closer to the event, I would expect those
[33:56.760 -> 34:03.140] ticket prices to drop and or eventually people just to be let in for free to see it if they're
[34:03.140 -> 34:12.600] really that desperate to get people in. I don't think they will be. Where they might be losing out is, I think it's a thing certain
[34:12.600 -> 34:18.560] operators will buy tickets and then offer packages based on those tickets. So like,
[34:18.560 -> 34:24.560] you know, the Aston team might offer a super exclusive VIP package, but most of the people
[34:24.560 -> 34:25.680] who buy that might
[34:25.680 -> 34:30.480] spend a little bit more money and do the super fancy thing, or there'll be people who don't
[34:30.480 -> 34:33.360] have enough money to do that and would never consider it.
[34:33.360 -> 34:37.280] So it may be there's some mid-level operators that are getting a little bit hammered right
[34:37.280 -> 34:38.280] now.
[34:38.280 -> 34:42.840] And if you happen to be one of those and would like to offer me VIP access, and a product
[34:42.840 -> 34:43.840] access-
[34:43.840 -> 34:44.840] Feedback at missapex.net.
[34:44.840 -> 34:45.280] Just email us.
[34:45.280 -> 34:45.920] Absolutely.
[34:45.920 -> 34:48.720] I will pick up a plane ticket, rent myself a hotel room,
[34:48.720 -> 34:49.920] and I'll come out and say,
[34:49.920 -> 34:52.480] and I will point out that I'm a minor celebrity now
[34:52.480 -> 34:53.440] in the Formula One world,
[34:53.440 -> 34:55.200] and at least tens of people know me.
[34:56.080 -> 34:57.360] Tens of people might know me.
[34:57.360 -> 34:58.480] You have some followers.
[34:59.280 -> 35:02.800] I would happily come and terrify your guests
[35:02.800 -> 35:04.560] talking about tyre construction.
[35:04.560 -> 35:04.960] Okay.
[35:04.960 -> 35:07.920] Matt's personal business advert aside.
[35:07.920 -> 35:14.240] No, I was just annoyed because I was trying to go a third of the way across the world
[35:14.240 -> 35:22.480] to get in, and the price is ridiculous, so it had better be full, Las Vegas.
[35:22.480 -> 35:27.440] Anyway, so do we think that this Grand Prix will be good?
[35:27.440 -> 35:32.320] Okay, what's the... we did kind of the worst case scenario with the field spread earlier,
[35:32.880 -> 35:36.400] which is personally what I think is going to happen. I think teams are going to struggle
[35:36.400 -> 35:46.720] to get their setups and to get pace and we're going to see, you know, like, you know, like a long, a long, long chain of spread out cars
[35:46.720 -> 35:51.920] by the third or fourth lap. What's the best case scenario? Like, how can this race be good?
[35:51.920 -> 35:59.680] Because the only defense so far I have seen for this track is, well, Singapore's at night,
[35:59.680 -> 36:05.920] on a street circuit. Are you saying Singapore's rubbish? Yeah, kinda. But we always accepted
[36:05.920 -> 36:10.000] that Singapore was rubbish because it was like the one race that was kind of like that.
[36:10.000 -> 36:15.240] Okay, it's at night. It's a city destination. We get it. We'll tolerate it. Yeah, all right.
[36:15.240 -> 36:19.400] We'll tolerate Monaco earlier in the season. We all know that's rubbish, but okay, I know,
[36:19.400 -> 36:23.840] I know. You have to gaslight us into saying you have to be there. Okay, fine. That's the
[36:23.840 -> 36:29.600] two, wasn't it? And then Baku was introduced and they had one, I think the first race had a brilliantly timed
[36:29.600 -> 36:36.160] safety car. There was a well-timed red flag in 2021. But without those things, that is not a
[36:36.160 -> 36:41.760] good circuit to go racing on. But the defences I've seen are, yeah, well, well, are Singapore
[36:41.760 -> 36:46.720] and Baku rubbish then? Yes, they are. So, I don't know, we're going to judge
[36:47.280 -> 36:53.840] Las Vegas as a street circuit. Like, you and I will judge it as a street circuit, whereas I don't
[36:53.840 -> 37:00.640] think the general F1 population has had their expectations managed for that. Yeah, I mean,
[37:00.640 -> 37:05.480] I think, I mean, for me, I think it's very easy to say this is going to be an interesting
[37:05.480 -> 37:06.480] Grand Prix to watch.
[37:06.480 -> 37:08.720] I've never raced there before.
[37:08.720 -> 37:11.600] We have weird environmental challenges.
[37:11.600 -> 37:18.040] It's at a bizarre time and there are interesting parameters to sort of be watched and looked
[37:18.040 -> 37:22.040] over and there will be discussions, fun discussions to come out of it.
[37:22.040 -> 37:23.040] Will it be good?
[37:23.040 -> 37:24.280] Well, no, of course not.
[37:24.280 -> 37:29.120] Max is going to win and everybody knows it. What would make it good? Oh, pretty simple. Come out of the pit lane,
[37:29.120 -> 37:33.360] Max spins up the rear tires, goes spinning off into, I don't know, pick your favorite other
[37:33.360 -> 37:38.960] driver that you like to see not finish the race. We get a red flag and everybody restarts with half
[37:38.960 -> 37:45.320] the race left on very cold tires. And it's a nail biter to the finish between three or four different
[37:45.320 -> 37:50.000] manufacturers, including maybe a midfield team. Who knows? Oz might do well here. The
[37:50.000 -> 37:56.360] other thing I do want to point out is I think they're talking about around 350 kilometers
[37:56.360 -> 38:03.080] per hour top speeds here. So if you were there in person and saw a car going that fast, it
[38:03.080 -> 38:07.200] would be pretty exciting regardless of who was doing what in the rest of the race.
[38:07.200 -> 38:08.760] I was trying to be there.
[38:08.760 -> 38:09.760] Thank you.
[38:09.760 -> 38:12.280] Yeah, I'd love to see F1 cars going super duper fast.
[38:12.280 -> 38:18.360] And yeah, I mean, geez, there is really nothing quite like watching F1 cars just absolutely
[38:18.360 -> 38:19.920] bomb by you.
[38:19.920 -> 38:26.640] And you get that same, you don't, yeah, that experience is very hard to replicate. So when I think
[38:26.640 -> 38:31.900] about whether I'm, say, going to go to Silverstone or not, there is a genuine toss-up between
[38:31.900 -> 38:38.020] the experience of being there and, say, watching the rear end of Formula One cars going through
[38:38.020 -> 38:44.620] Maggots and Becketts, and watching that direction change as if by magic, even at slower speeds
[38:44.620 -> 38:46.320] through the first section, around
[38:46.320 -> 38:50.520] the loop, as it flicks onto the Wellington Strait, it's unbelievable. It's like they're
[38:50.520 -> 38:56.080] just spinning in motion. It's like they get to the end of the loop and just spin and then
[38:56.080 -> 39:01.640] go down to, you know, like they're on a railway turntable. So there's that kind of thing of
[39:01.640 -> 39:09.120] going, right, do I want that experience of seeing it? It's incredible to see it and and actually WEC is way up there if you get a chance to go and see
[39:09.920 -> 39:18.120] World Endurance Championship cars like watching those in the sport series cars going past you on track is an incredible experience
[39:18.120 -> 39:22.800] It's completely different though from actually watching the race and one of the things that puts me off
[39:23.080 -> 39:29.520] from from ever actually attending Grand Prix is that, like, I was at the 2013 Grand Prix and I really didn't
[39:29.520 -> 39:35.440] have much idea about what was going on outside of Sector 1. And I was disappointed that I
[39:35.440 -> 39:40.840] kept missing moves that were happening down at Stoke. So it's a completely different experience,
[39:40.840 -> 39:44.520] it's a completely different sport, if you like. So I kind of, I don't want to miss the
[39:44.520 -> 39:49.720] race. So whenever I look at the tickets, I'm like, right, I want to see Friday and Friday
[39:49.720 -> 39:54.040] and Saturday. So that's that's one thing you go, okay, well, the experience of watching F1 cars at
[39:54.040 -> 40:00.800] this hypothetical maximum speed, that's fine. But that isn't going to change the TV experience at
[40:00.800 -> 40:08.320] all. In fact, if anything, it's just going to change the sound of the onboard from me to me as
[40:08.320 -> 40:11.440] it runs out power at the end of the straight.
[40:11.440 -> 40:13.960] That's my best V6 hybrid impression.
[40:13.960 -> 40:15.120] I like that.
[40:15.120 -> 40:19.340] I think that's the next set of regulations we're really worried about, though.
[40:19.340 -> 40:26.560] The good news with the MGU-H is it's going to keep that battery nice and charged up and plenty of energy headed
[40:26.560 -> 40:28.960] off to the ancillary systems.
[40:28.960 -> 40:31.600] But where are you going to charge your battery around this track?
[40:32.560 -> 40:38.720] The MGU-H can send electrical energy directly to various systems. So because you're running
[40:40.000 -> 40:44.720] high in the revs for long periods of time, the MGU-H is basically making free energy
[40:44.720 -> 40:46.240] for the rest of the car.
[40:46.240 -> 40:49.120] You can only put so much of it into your battery.
[40:49.120 -> 40:50.360] Do you know what?
[40:50.360 -> 40:51.360] I'm thinking of the MGU-K.
[40:51.360 -> 40:53.520] You can send it to other places for free.
[40:53.520 -> 40:56.040] So I'm thinking of the MGU-K, aren't I?
[40:56.040 -> 40:59.440] The kinetic battery where you get, recover energy from breaking.
[40:59.440 -> 41:08.600] And that is the discussion about the next power unit regulations and whether or not there will be enough regeneration possible
[41:09.280 -> 41:11.520] to create the amount of energy
[41:11.520 -> 41:12.960] they want to use electrically,
[41:12.960 -> 41:15.640] or whether or not they're going to have to parasitically
[41:15.640 -> 41:18.960] run the internal combustion engine
[41:18.960 -> 41:21.960] to charge up the battery a little bit on the straights.
[41:21.960 -> 41:22.800] And this is-
[41:22.800 -> 41:23.920] Yeah, yeah.
[41:23.920 -> 41:25.560] It's gonna be sustainable fuels though, isn't it?
[41:25.560 -> 41:29.160] So I've been led to believe that that is all going to be
[41:29.160 -> 41:32.960] from crushing guinea pigs through a blender.
[41:32.960 -> 41:36.420] And there's so many guinea pigs that will be fine.
[41:36.420 -> 41:41.080] Yeah, you know, WECC actually uses discarded grapes
[41:41.080 -> 41:43.120] from winemaking for their fuel now.
[41:43.120 -> 41:43.960] Is it?
[41:43.960 -> 41:48.960] Yeah, so it's 100%. Yeah, drop 100% drop in, same energy, density.
[41:48.960 -> 41:50.640] Is that fuel that could have been wine?
[41:51.360 -> 41:54.000] No, no. It's leftover after the winemaking.
[41:54.000 -> 41:55.840] Okay, okay. That's fine. That's fine.
[41:55.840 -> 41:59.680] Although I've had some wine that has tasted like fuel. It didn't come from France.
[41:59.680 -> 42:02.000] So the best case scenario is drama.
[42:04.080 -> 42:06.960] But that's a problem though, isn't it? So, I mean, that's
[42:06.960 -> 42:12.520] the same in Miami. And have we had a good race in Miami? No. Are most of the races in
[42:12.520 -> 42:18.800] Baku any good? No. Do we get any good Singapore Grand Prix's? Just that one where it was made
[42:18.800 -> 42:27.360] good because Russell and Hamilton couldn't overtake signs, but generally, no, that's always a dud. So what we're hoping for is, and this
[42:27.360 -> 42:32.400] is, this puts us in a very, you know, a bracket of fans that we wouldn't normally want to associate
[42:32.400 -> 42:36.800] with. No, enjoy, enjoy, you know, enjoy what you want to enjoy, but there are people who are there
[42:36.800 -> 42:40.960] for the crashes and the drama. But I think that's all we've got. That's all we've got, I think.
[42:40.960 -> 42:48.480] Well, I don't know. I think you've got Williams, genuinely, this is a track
[42:48.480 -> 42:54.560] that could really super duper work for them. Obviously, and much to your utter annoyance,
[42:54.560 -> 43:00.000] you've got Alpha Tauri with the potential with their updated aerodynamics. Come on,
[43:00.000 -> 43:08.480] UK. Come on, UK. So to be, I mean, they're in a pretty serious battle, aren't they, for like eighth place with Alfa
[43:08.480 -> 43:09.480] Romeo?
[43:09.480 -> 43:10.480] That doesn't matter.
[43:10.480 -> 43:11.720] There's not nothing at stake here.
[43:11.720 -> 43:12.720] No, no, no.
[43:12.720 -> 43:13.720] That doesn't matter.
[43:13.720 -> 43:15.680] The battle is Sonoda versus Ricardo.
[43:15.680 -> 43:20.480] That is the battle for the soul of the Red Bull succession line.
[43:20.480 -> 43:21.480] Yes.
[43:21.480 -> 43:23.120] And so, I mean...
[43:23.120 -> 43:26.560] And you know, there's always the perennial
[43:26.560 -> 43:29.840] Howell Perez do at this track question to be answered.
[43:29.840 -> 43:30.840] I don't want to play.
[43:30.840 -> 43:31.840] I don't want to play.
[43:31.840 -> 43:33.680] He's been doing better.
[43:33.680 -> 43:38.520] I think I think I think he's I you know, you know, the funniest thing to me, like I'm going
[43:38.520 -> 43:40.720] to completely derail this whole show.
[43:40.720 -> 43:41.720] That's fine.
[43:41.720 -> 43:43.040] Is you gave me so much grief.
[43:43.040 -> 43:46.520] Yeah, we're talking about how and Brad did too. But gave me so much grief. We're talking about how, and Brad did too,
[43:46.520 -> 43:50.040] but Brad just gives everybody grief, so I just ignore that.
[43:50.040 -> 43:55.040] But genuinely, if you have been where Perez was,
[43:55.120 -> 43:57.080] with as terrible as his performance was,
[43:57.080 -> 44:00.240] and knowing that everything is on the line
[44:00.240 -> 44:01.480] every time you walk on the track,
[44:01.480 -> 44:04.760] to see him come back just to where he has
[44:04.760 -> 44:06.160] is actually a really,
[44:06.160 -> 44:13.040] as a performer, I find that very impressive. Because mentally, it's hard to do. Once you're lost
[44:13.600 -> 44:16.400] and you have to go out in front of the audience and you're going out there saying,
[44:16.400 -> 44:22.560] I have no idea what's going to happen when I try to do this thing. And to go out there and to be
[44:22.560 -> 44:27.600] able to get back to even a respectable level of performance
[44:27.600 -> 44:28.600] in the race.
[44:28.600 -> 44:33.120] You know, I mean, like Alonso showed him up a little bit, but that's Alonso too.
[44:33.120 -> 44:37.360] I mean, come on, it's not like nobody.
[44:37.360 -> 44:41.080] And qualifying was never really his thing anyway.
[44:41.080 -> 44:46.840] So I do genuinely feel like he's made progress with this car.
[44:46.840 -> 44:52.600] And I'm sort of interested to see if he can get closer in qualifying now, because if they've
[44:52.600 -> 44:58.240] figured out how to work with him and the car, they should continue to be able to extract
[44:58.240 -> 45:00.400] more performance from it in qualifying.
[45:00.400 -> 45:02.680] And that's the unanswered question right now.
[45:02.680 -> 45:05.480] There's a movie, an American movie about baseball.
[45:05.480 -> 45:07.080] And I can't remember what it's called.
[45:07.080 -> 45:09.280] And I can't remember who is in it.
[45:09.280 -> 45:10.320] Hit the thing with the stick.
[45:10.320 -> 45:12.480] And it's about 30 years old as well.
[45:12.480 -> 45:16.280] But it was about a one-armed batter, batsman, batter.
[45:16.280 -> 45:17.080] Right?
[45:17.080 -> 45:19.360] He had one arm and it was his bad arm.
[45:19.360 -> 45:21.760] And the story was, he lost it as a kid.
[45:21.760 -> 45:27.600] And then he, but he still managed to just about get into a majors team, is that
[45:27.600 -> 45:31.280] the thing? Anyway, so he started off, hit a few home runs and it was going quite well,
[45:31.280 -> 45:36.100] and then it started going badly, as all movies do. And it was going so badly that he kept
[45:36.100 -> 45:40.860] not hitting it, and then at one game, he hit it, it went into the ground and he ran to
[45:40.860 -> 45:45.840] first base, and his fan base went absolutely crazy like, yes, finally,
[45:45.840 -> 45:51.600] you know, he got a hit, a ball hit. And then the coach turned around and said to the family,
[45:51.600 -> 45:57.520] I think they said, the fact that you're celebrating him getting to first base shows that it's over.
[45:58.080 -> 46:02.880] And that's the feeling I get with Perez. So you're celebrating him going on to first base.
[46:02.880 -> 46:05.360] Me as a Perez fan, I'm going,
[46:05.360 -> 46:07.560] we shouldn't. The fact that we're celebrating...
[46:07.560 -> 46:11.500] No, Brazil was more than first base. That's my argument.
[46:11.500 -> 46:12.500] He got beaten to the podium by...
[46:12.500 -> 46:16.760] Brazil was more than first base. Yeah, it was. The one before, I could see your point.
[46:16.760 -> 46:21.720] Like whatever, he finished in the top 10, yay. But Brazil, fighting for a podium with
[46:21.720 -> 46:26.000] Alonso and like genuinely fighting with him.
[46:26.000 -> 46:30.000] And then Aston that clearly had a lot of performance.
[46:30.000 -> 46:33.000] And coming from as far back as he did.
[46:33.000 -> 46:36.000] Which is, I know that's your first base, he came back from so far.
[46:36.000 -> 46:38.000] But disqualifying was always suspect.
[46:38.000 -> 46:41.000] But I see the race performances coming back.
[46:41.000 -> 46:45.180] And to recover that after you've lost it, it's like a golfer who has the yips and
[46:45.180 -> 46:50.140] then gets a new putter and then figures out how to putt again and is competitive again.
[46:50.140 -> 46:55.940] I think it's a more impressive story, but I also understand you don't want to give yourself
[46:55.940 -> 46:56.940] any hope.
[46:56.940 -> 46:57.940] So fair.
[46:57.940 -> 46:58.940] I'll allow you that interpretation.
[46:58.940 -> 47:02.260] So Verstappen's out there getting birdies if we're going to do golf.
[47:02.260 -> 47:04.100] He's out there getting birdies, yeah.
[47:04.100 -> 47:06.840] And what we're saying- He's playing with a seven iron and a driver
[47:06.840 -> 47:09.200] and shooting 10 under a par, yeah, it's ridiculous.
[47:09.200 -> 47:10.760] But what we're saying is that Perez
[47:10.760 -> 47:13.800] is shanking it off the tee every time
[47:13.800 -> 47:16.540] and putting it out of bounds, getting penalty strokes,
[47:16.540 -> 47:18.000] but then we're celebrating that he gets
[47:18.000 -> 47:20.840] onto the green and two putts and gets, you know.
[47:20.840 -> 47:22.780] But he's still a double bogey,
[47:22.780 -> 47:23.620] so you're still celebrating a double bogey.
[47:23.620 -> 47:30.160] If you've ever had the shanks, it what it what an impressive achievement that is pretty much my I dream of the shanks
[47:30.160 -> 47:33.760] That's that's a level I can aspire to at least I'm making contact with the ball
[47:33.860 -> 47:41.220] Okay, I'd buy think in general I do get annoyed with this comeback drive narrative week in week out in Formula One
[47:41.560 -> 47:43.940] The driver that gets celebrated the most
[47:44.400 -> 47:45.440] Seems to be the driver that qual celebrated the most seems to be the driver
[47:45.440 -> 47:48.160] that qualifies out of position and then does some overtakes.
[47:48.160 -> 47:53.320] And in fact, there was a period, it hasn't come up much lately, where Lance Stroll kept
[47:53.320 -> 47:56.480] getting lauded for having the most overtakes or the most positions.
[47:56.480 -> 48:00.080] Did he call it like the worst qualifier award for a while on our show?
[48:00.080 -> 48:04.960] Yeah, but he's gained the most places than anybody else on lap one.
[48:04.960 -> 48:05.000] Yeah! Worst qualifier? He's gained the most places than anybody else on lap one.
[48:05.000 -> 48:10.600] Yeah, of course, because he's fighting cars that are like, you know, right down the bottom
[48:10.600 -> 48:11.600] of the championship.
[48:11.600 -> 48:14.160] Yeah, it's like Flint's doing it at the start.
[48:14.160 -> 48:18.000] It should have been people saying, look, that just shows how bad his qualifying was.
[48:18.000 -> 48:19.000] But it wasn't.
[48:19.000 -> 48:23.120] It was celebrated as, see, see, he can race and overtake and stuff like that.
[48:23.120 -> 48:24.280] But it happens all the time.
[48:24.280 -> 48:26.720] Perez has had so many Driver of the Day awards
[48:26.720 -> 48:28.760] from basically messing up Saturdays.
[48:28.760 -> 48:32.200] So just as a rule, can we not do that?
[48:32.200 -> 48:33.600] And if you're listening to my voice,
[48:33.600 -> 48:37.120] can you join forces with me and Meg Schuster
[48:37.120 -> 48:40.200] from The Ringer, a show I do as well.
[48:40.200 -> 48:44.080] And we would like to all vote for Latifi
[48:44.080 -> 48:46.920] as Driver of the day in in Las Vegas
[48:46.920 -> 48:49.140] Whatever happens I'm gonna get on there
[48:49.140 -> 48:55.760] I would like to throw the weight of Missed Apex and the ringer and and give Latifi something to celebrate at a home race
[48:55.760 -> 48:58.700] Are you in Matt? Are you voting? Did I just say Latifi?
[49:00.920 -> 49:02.920] Sergeant I clearly meant Logan Sergeant
[49:02.920 -> 49:06.680] I was wondering like if they left this hole where you can just like ride in a driver and that
[49:06.680 -> 49:09.160] would be hilarious because I would totally be behind it.
[49:09.160 -> 49:13.760] So I clearly meant Logan Sargent but I said Latifi about five times.
[49:13.760 -> 49:14.760] I was kind of confused.
[49:14.760 -> 49:17.880] I thought you might have meant Sargent Fairbutt.
[49:17.880 -> 49:19.880] But that's a bit of a Freudian slip isn't it?
[49:19.880 -> 49:24.680] Because basically every conversation we've had about Sargent has been nearly exactly
[49:24.680 -> 49:25.560] the same copy and paste that we were had about Sargent has been nearly exactly the same copy
[49:25.560 -> 49:31.440] and paste that we were having about Latifi. But yeah, let's do Sarge Tifi, driver of the
[49:31.440 -> 49:35.160] day in the Las Vegas Grand Prix. Let's make it happen.
[49:35.160 -> 49:36.160] Maybe he'll score another point.
[49:36.160 -> 49:43.520] Yeah, wow. Okay, good. All right. Well, I'm looking forward to Las Vegas. More with curiosity.
[49:43.520 -> 49:46.720] It is something different. The best case scenario
[49:46.720 -> 49:52.260] is drama, I think, but there could be plenty of drama. You could see teams really struggle
[49:52.260 -> 49:59.320] in practice, even to get the rear end to stick. So that's a prediction I'll make. FP1, you're
[49:59.320 -> 50:03.520] going to see cars snaking out of the traction zones, and not every team is going to be able
[50:03.520 -> 50:05.280] to overcome that. So I
[50:05.280 -> 50:11.920] think the whole journey from Friday practice to the race on Sunday, hopefully that can be quite
[50:11.920 -> 50:19.360] fascinating. I would say there's a high possibility that this is a one-stop race where everyone gets
[50:19.360 -> 50:27.060] through turn one clearly and there's field spread. And that happens at races like Baku and Singapore.
[50:27.060 -> 50:32.300] So maybe just manage your expectations. I think there's too many races on the calendar
[50:32.300 -> 50:39.680] where we have to do this now with Miami also on the calendar and Monaco obviously as well.
[50:39.680 -> 50:48.560] So it's another race where we're going to have to manage expectations. And if we get a little sprinkling of drama, then so be it.
[50:48.560 -> 50:54.120] So, earlier today, me and Matt caught up with Peter Wright, who's a real lawyer, Matt, and
[50:54.120 -> 50:59.760] he's a very nice man, and he understands the law and stuff, and also does research, which
[50:59.760 -> 51:06.280] isn't really in the Miss Apex spirit, but man, does he know his stuff and compile good arguments
[51:06.280 -> 51:07.280] and insights.
[51:07.280 -> 51:13.560] Yeah, he is the guy you want to talk to because he loves Formula 1 and he also knows things.
[51:13.560 -> 51:16.080] All right, so let's have that conversation.
[51:16.080 -> 51:20.040] Now we're going to talk about things like Andretti and Felipe Massa.
[51:20.040 -> 51:21.040] We'll see you on Sunday.
[51:21.040 -> 51:22.040] I already said that.
[51:22.040 -> 51:25.440] I've forgotten what I've said in the previous pre-record.
[51:25.440 -> 51:26.600] So I'll just say it twice.
[51:26.600 -> 51:27.600] I'll see you on Sunday.
[51:27.600 -> 51:30.080] And then later, I'll say see you on Sunday again.
[51:30.080 -> 51:31.200] Bye.
[51:31.200 -> 51:32.240] No, can't say bye.
[51:32.240 -> 51:33.800] We're going into a segment.
[51:33.800 -> 51:35.480] Oh, it's a disaster.
[51:35.480 -> 51:38.080] I'll do another breaker, and then here's the segment.
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[52:50.260 -> 52:55.820] Now then, from the glamour of Vegas to the equally glamorous world of politics and law
[52:55.820 -> 53:02.460] and the person that we call upon when we need to know what's going on in the political machinations
[53:02.460 -> 53:06.200] of Formula One is Peter Wright from Digital Law.
[53:06.200 -> 53:09.240] No longer Digital Law UK, just Digital Law,
[53:09.240 -> 53:12.440] because you're now international legal superstars.
[53:12.440 -> 53:13.280] Hello, Peter.
[53:14.800 -> 53:15.960] Hi, Spanners, and hello, everyone.
[53:15.960 -> 53:17.560] And yeah, we've gone global now.
[53:17.560 -> 53:20.120] So yeah, we dropped the UK bit.
[53:20.120 -> 53:20.960] Nice.
[53:20.960 -> 53:23.200] So you're gonna bring us some updates
[53:23.200 -> 53:25.760] on stories that have been bubbling under the surface.
[53:25.760 -> 53:31.600] We want to talk about some Andretti news, but I think the thing that's been most prevalent
[53:31.600 -> 53:38.000] since Brazil was the appearance of future Brazilian president, probably, Felipe Massa.
[53:38.880 -> 53:46.360] How is his case going? Because the last I heard, he'd sort of issued an ultimatum to the FIA, like, you
[53:46.360 -> 53:50.380] had better make a decision by sometime.
[53:50.380 -> 53:52.440] And I think that time seems to have come and gone.
[53:52.440 -> 53:53.440] Indeed.
[53:53.440 -> 53:58.960] Well, at time of recording, the date that is in question is the 15th of November.
[53:58.960 -> 54:01.960] So it is imminently.
[54:01.960 -> 54:07.360] Have we chosen exactly the wrong day to record this, and by tomorrow, they're going to declare
[54:07.360 -> 54:09.480] him the 2008 champion.
[54:09.480 -> 54:13.320] Well, I'd say this is the right time to be having a conversation about this because I
[54:13.320 -> 54:18.280] can hopefully give you and all the listeners a little bit of background on exactly what
[54:18.280 -> 54:23.640] a lot of the public pronouncements that have been made on this so far actually mean.
[54:23.640 -> 54:25.440] And the thing that we're going to get tomorrow is a
[54:25.440 -> 54:29.520] little bit of sort of put up or shut up. We'll be finding out, are they actually going to do
[54:29.520 -> 54:34.320] something about this as in, is Massa's legal team going to get serious or is there going to be a
[54:34.320 -> 54:39.600] sort of gently walking away, disappearing into the hedge, hoping that no one notices all of the
[54:39.600 -> 54:44.000] noise that happens? Oh, nice. I understand that reference. That is a Homer Simpsons reference.
[54:44.000 -> 54:45.200] Oh, nice. I understand that reference. It's a Homer Simpsons reference.
[54:52.320 -> 54:56.000] Yeah. So, okay. So, first of all, let's take a guess. Will he be declared 2008 champion? Well, I'll take you back to my previous answer when you asked me that. And the last time I was
[54:56.000 -> 55:03.520] on, I said, questions to which the answer is no. I mean, looking at this at a fairly rudimentary
[55:03.520 -> 55:06.960] level, first of all, we've got to look at any potential claim
[55:06.960 -> 55:07.920] that Massa has got.
[55:07.920 -> 55:10.800] And I say potential because that's literally where this is.
[55:10.800 -> 55:13.920] They have sent a letter to the FIA
[55:13.920 -> 55:16.320] threatening to take them to court
[55:16.320 -> 55:19.820] using the courts in England and Wales.
[55:19.820 -> 55:22.620] So, you know, they've basically said,
[55:22.620 -> 55:24.800] we're gonna sue you in London,
[55:24.800 -> 55:25.440] potentially in the High
[55:25.440 -> 55:29.700] Court because it will be a major piece of litigation.
[55:29.700 -> 55:33.640] But we haven't got to the point of saying we're actually going to issue legal proceedings
[55:33.640 -> 55:34.640] to go to court.
[55:34.640 -> 55:38.840] So all we have is what they call a letter before action, a letter before claim.
[55:38.840 -> 55:47.560] That's what they've put in, basically saying, we think we've got a case here and we want you to start negotiating with us.
[55:47.560 -> 55:52.000] We want you to start confirming what evidence you've got to defend the allegations that
[55:52.000 -> 55:59.400] we are making with regards to Crushgate 2008 and the whys and the wherefores of that.
[55:59.400 -> 56:02.400] But as I say, at the moment, all we've got is a letter.
[56:02.400 -> 56:03.600] So we've not had an litigation.
[56:03.600 -> 56:12.000] We haven't seen what real evidence Massa has apart from that interview that's been quoted that Bernie Eccleston gave,
[56:12.000 -> 56:17.680] and we certainly don't know what formally the FIA's position would be in defending this,
[56:17.680 -> 56:22.960] because they do not have to publicly issue anything as yet. It's a letter that's been said.
[56:24.320 -> 56:25.200] And I think we just have to think,
[56:25.200 -> 56:28.480] well, what do we have currently in the public domain? And a disclaimer here,
[56:29.520 -> 56:34.640] I'm not privy to any illegal machinations by any particular place. I've not seen any letters or
[56:34.640 -> 56:39.680] any other things there. I am merely just talking about this in the same way that everyone out there
[56:39.680 -> 56:46.720] has seen different articles on different publicly available sources. Well, I immediately have a question.
[56:46.720 -> 56:53.000] And you just mentioned the FIA, and it occurred to me, I thought I had seen people interviewing
[56:53.000 -> 56:55.680] Dominic Colley about this.
[56:55.680 -> 57:02.000] Has MASA sent this letter to Liberty FOM and not to the FIA?
[57:02.000 -> 57:05.840] Or has this been sent to both parties? Do you know?
[57:05.840 -> 57:10.880] So everything I've seen, and again, I'm just going from what's quoted in publicly available
[57:11.600 -> 57:18.880] articles, they have referred to the FIA. And I presume that's because the remedy he's looking for
[57:18.880 -> 57:28.140] is, I want the Singapore Grand Prix 2008 to be, effect expunged from the record books.
[57:28.200 -> 57:33.400] And that then in theory, reapportioning of points from that, or taking away the
[57:33.400 -> 57:37.880] points that were scored there would then have an impact on the final 2008
[57:37.880 -> 57:44.280] championship table, that's what he's alleging based on the statements that
[57:44.280 -> 57:46.320] were made around, yeah, we subsequently
[57:46.320 -> 57:51.360] found out that, you know, crash gate, there were decisions made with regards to a driver
[57:51.360 -> 57:53.120] deliberately driving into a wall.
[57:53.120 -> 57:55.920] But at the moment, the results from that race stand.
[57:55.920 -> 58:00.280] The precedent of course is not there because never in the entire history of the Formula
[58:00.280 -> 58:13.360] One World Championship have we had a race result annulled? So, there's obviously plenty of examples of some laps being voided or teams being disqualified. So,
[58:13.360 -> 58:20.400] there are a number of kind of face-saving options the FIA could take if they so wished. So,
[58:20.400 -> 58:28.300] they could just go, do you know what? You're absolutely right. It's a disgrace that that previous administration didn't take immediate action.
[58:28.300 -> 58:31.840] We will take action now and disqualify Renault.
[58:31.840 -> 58:35.060] And we apologize that that wasn't done earlier.
[58:35.060 -> 58:37.000] And of course that doesn't affect anything.
[58:37.000 -> 58:39.240] But this is what I mean by what's your evidence?
[58:39.240 -> 58:41.700] Because the question at the moment is, why would you?
[58:41.700 -> 58:46.120] What reason would the FIA have for taking such an extraordinary step?
[58:46.680 -> 58:53.400] The only evidence we have is a interview that Bernie Eccleston gave, and he
[58:53.400 -> 58:57.320] doesn't have the greatest record in terms of being a reliable witness when it comes
[58:57.320 -> 58:59.320] to misdemeanor assaults.
[58:59.320 -> 58:59.840] I think you're saying things.
[59:00.080 -> 59:00.760] Allegedly.
[59:01.320 -> 59:01.600] Hang on.
[59:02.040 -> 59:05.600] You're the one who always says to me, we have to say he's allegedly an
[59:05.600 -> 59:12.080] unreliable witness. I personally think he's brilliant, probably. Okay. That was Peter Wright
[59:12.080 -> 59:19.040] from Digital Lawmaking. That was the voice you just heard. Just to keep him clear, as an American,
[59:19.040 -> 59:26.040] I'm going to say, I believe at this point he has an actual record in court, not just an alleged record based on
[59:26.040 -> 59:27.040] our observations.
[59:27.040 -> 59:32.680] So, very, very briefly, Bernie Eccleston pled guilty to fraud and false representation.
[59:32.680 -> 59:40.740] That's a base $652 million to HMRC, which is the tax authorities in the UK, with regards
[59:40.740 -> 59:45.520] to a trust based in the Far East that he neglected to tell the tax authorities
[59:45.520 -> 59:47.840] about in the UK.
[59:47.840 -> 59:53.320] So when I'm saying he's not necessarily a reliable witness, that's what I'm referring
[59:53.320 -> 59:54.320] to.
[59:54.320 -> 59:57.760] I think he owned up to it, so that's all right.
[59:57.760 -> 59:58.760] That's what I think.
[59:58.760 -> 01:00:02.300] I'm still Team Eccleston here in general.
[01:00:02.300 -> 01:00:06.120] So we're not talking about Bernie E Accleston though, are we Pete?
[01:00:06.120 -> 01:00:12.680] What the listeners who aren't on YouTube won't see is that you are currently in a house and
[01:00:12.680 -> 01:00:18.840] most of the ornaments are solid gold and you actually drive a solid gold diamond encrusted
[01:00:18.840 -> 01:00:19.840] car.
[01:00:19.840 -> 01:00:27.360] The windscreen is diamond encrusted because lawyers are very, very wealthy individuals that cost a lot.
[01:00:27.360 -> 01:00:31.080] When do the legal costs start becoming a problem for Masa?
[01:00:31.080 -> 01:00:36.320] I don't know how wealthy he is, but could he afford to call up Peter Wright and add
[01:00:36.320 -> 01:00:39.400] another diamond to your gold-plated Lexus?
[01:00:39.400 -> 01:00:42.640] I don't even know if Lexus is an expensive car.
[01:00:42.640 -> 01:00:43.640] I took a punt.
[01:00:43.640 -> 01:00:45.160] I took a street rat punt.
[01:00:45.160 -> 01:00:46.160] Well, okay.
[01:00:46.160 -> 01:00:48.160] I've always thrown you a little.
[01:00:48.160 -> 01:00:52.600] I'll just draw a veil over the whole what you were saying about all lawyers earning
[01:00:52.600 -> 01:00:53.600] a lot.
[01:00:53.600 -> 01:00:55.920] I can tell you for a fact they don't.
[01:00:55.920 -> 01:00:59.960] And certainly have not a golden car, got a golden crusted car.
[01:00:59.960 -> 01:01:07.280] But I think that, and I'll also not go into detail on Lexus, because you don't see so many Lexi
[01:01:07.280 -> 01:01:08.320] on the road anymore.
[01:01:08.320 -> 01:01:14.960] No, I think I have thrown you off topic, but when are the legal costs going to start kicking
[01:01:14.960 -> 01:01:15.960] in?
[01:01:15.960 -> 01:01:19.680] There's a point where you go, all right, it's all talk at the moment.
[01:01:19.680 -> 01:01:21.240] We had months and months of talk.
[01:01:21.240 -> 01:01:25.480] Unless you do something, frankly, his credibility and his reputation
[01:01:25.480 -> 01:01:29.720] is in the dirt at the moment. I think if we take a popular poll of how people feel about
[01:01:29.720 -> 01:01:34.680] Felipe Massa at the moment, it's less good than it was before.
[01:01:34.680 -> 01:01:42.700] Indeed. So the legal costs only will become an issue once legal proceedings are filed.
[01:01:42.700 -> 01:01:46.200] So at the moment where we've got what this, we call this pre-action phase that
[01:01:46.200 -> 01:01:51.400] we're in of letters being sent back and forth, um, costs do not start to get
[01:01:51.400 -> 01:01:51.900] incurred.
[01:01:51.900 -> 01:01:53.000] What do we mean by costs?
[01:01:53.360 -> 01:01:57.320] Um, whenever you hear of a big piece of litigation, so for example, you know,
[01:01:57.600 -> 01:02:01.720] Johnny Depp and Amber Heard last year, you had legal costs involved, and it
[01:02:02.120 -> 01:02:06.000] runs into the millions of pounds or dollars or whatever currency you're looking at
[01:02:06.000 -> 01:02:14.240] because of all the very expensive people who are in the room. So, not to mention the length of time
[01:02:14.240 -> 01:02:20.480] that it usually takes before you actually get into a courtroom. Very often this litigious process
[01:02:20.480 -> 01:02:26.320] will run for a long time. But at the moment, let's say we have not got legal proceedings.
[01:02:26.320 -> 01:02:33.280] What do I mean by that? Legal proceedings start when a party goes to court and issues a claim,
[01:02:33.280 -> 01:02:38.480] files a claim form that says, I have a claim, you know, I, Flippin Master, have a claim that I should
[01:02:38.480 -> 01:02:44.080] have been world champion in 2008. I'm very upset about it. And this is the basis for my claim.
[01:02:43.080 -> 01:02:44.960] 2008, I'm very upset about it. This is the basis for my claim.
[01:02:44.960 -> 01:02:48.160] Here is the court fee that I'm going to pay for this.
[01:02:48.160 -> 01:02:52.560] You have to pay a fee based on the sum at issue.
[01:02:52.560 -> 01:02:58.920] Now, if you're claiming more than four or five figures, that amount will be large.
[01:02:58.920 -> 01:03:02.600] It's almost like saying, I'm serious, therefore I'm going to pay a couple of thousand pounds
[01:03:02.600 -> 01:03:03.920] on a court fee.
[01:03:03.920 -> 01:03:08.680] That's just the court fee that you're paying the court to lodge that piece of paper
[01:03:08.680 -> 01:03:09.680] to say, I have a case.
[01:03:09.680 -> 01:03:14.680] It would say that apart from having the championship robbed, he was talking about the immeasurable
[01:03:14.680 -> 01:03:20.400] amount of money that it has cost me in terms of promotion and career stuff.
[01:03:20.400 -> 01:03:28.960] But in future conversations, like anything I heard from him in Brazil, he seems to have dropped that and really focused in on the, I had my championship
[01:03:28.960 -> 01:03:29.400] stolen.
[01:03:29.880 -> 01:03:30.120] Yeah.
[01:03:30.800 -> 01:03:35.440] And I think that probably suggests that he has difficulty in accurately saying,
[01:03:35.440 -> 01:03:38.560] well, this is the position I would be in if I had actually won the world
[01:03:38.560 -> 01:03:40.560] championship in 2008.
[01:03:41.000 -> 01:03:46.880] You can point to Jenson Button and say, oh, look, Jenson won one title a year after, and
[01:03:46.880 -> 01:03:48.200] he's now doing this and that and the other.
[01:03:48.200 -> 01:03:53.560] But of course, Jenson had a very different career both before and after his world championship
[01:03:53.560 -> 01:03:55.640] and has gone in a different direction.
[01:03:55.640 -> 01:03:59.440] So you can't really compare apples and oranges, can you?
[01:03:59.440 -> 01:04:04.320] So I think that might be the reason why he's moved away from that line of saying, well,
[01:04:04.320 -> 01:04:05.320] this is what I'm after.
[01:04:05.320 -> 01:04:08.680] And he's going more towards saying, I want the world championship.
[01:04:08.680 -> 01:04:12.920] But the thing here is that even to get to the point of drafting that form, he wouldn't
[01:04:12.920 -> 01:04:14.520] write that himself.
[01:04:14.520 -> 01:04:18.560] He would instruct his very expensive lawyers, his global legal team, which he referred to
[01:04:18.560 -> 01:04:19.560] previously.
[01:04:19.560 -> 01:04:24.600] And they would be drafting that form and in theory putting together witness statements
[01:04:24.600 -> 01:04:27.640] by Massa saying, this is how I've been in fact impacted by this.
[01:04:27.640 -> 01:04:30.140] This is how unfair it was, blah, blah, blah.
[01:04:30.140 -> 01:04:33.700] Supporting witness evidence, documentary evidence, probably sitting down and getting a detailed
[01:04:33.700 -> 01:04:34.700] statement from Bernie Eccleston.
[01:04:34.700 -> 01:04:36.860] That's not going to come cheap, is it?
[01:04:36.860 -> 01:04:43.740] So you can quickly see where all of the costs would start to escalate in a massive way.
[01:04:43.740 -> 01:04:46.640] Even just Felipe Massa's costs in putting
[01:04:46.640 -> 01:04:52.160] this case together, before you then look at the FIA incurring a huge amount of costs to
[01:04:52.160 -> 01:04:54.600] defend said claim.
[01:04:54.600 -> 01:04:59.680] So that would all begin to snowball, particularly over the long period of time this would take.
[01:04:59.680 -> 01:05:06.240] So I'm immediately, from an American litigation point of view, curious if he were to bring this claim
[01:05:06.960 -> 01:05:14.240] and it were to be litigated and thrown out, in certain cases in the U.S., as a plaintiff
[01:05:15.040 -> 01:05:22.400] bringing a case that had no merit, ultimately, you might be found liable for the expenses of
[01:05:22.400 -> 01:05:30.160] the defendant. So is it the case that if he does pay his money and take his chances, so to speak, because
[01:05:30.160 -> 01:05:36.080] we are going to Vegas after all, that he might be on the hook to pay not just his own, I'm
[01:05:36.080 -> 01:05:41.000] assuming fairly massive legal fees, if we're going to grant that there's not somebody in
[01:05:41.000 -> 01:05:45.600] the background bankrolling this, because that's something that's possible
[01:05:45.600 -> 01:05:48.200] in the US too.
[01:05:48.200 -> 01:05:53.020] Is it possible then that he could be on the hook for both sides of this legal action should
[01:05:53.020 -> 01:05:54.020] it come to court?
[01:05:54.020 -> 01:05:55.100] Yes.
[01:05:55.100 -> 01:06:00.780] If it got as far as going to court and if he were then to lose, and even then if you
[01:06:00.780 -> 01:06:10.040] lose, you don't necessarily end up paying the other side's cost. That is a decision that the judge would take, and that would be dependent on the conduct
[01:06:10.040 -> 01:06:15.520] of the parties and various other issues that will be taken into account.
[01:06:15.520 -> 01:06:20.120] But I think it's also worth mentioning here that even to actually get to the point of
[01:06:20.120 -> 01:06:25.100] having the day in court, we'd be talking about that being years from now.
[01:06:25.100 -> 01:06:30.420] We've currently got a delay in the courts, which you have courts in the UK were slow
[01:06:30.420 -> 01:06:31.420] anyway.
[01:06:31.420 -> 01:06:32.420] Then we had the pandemic.
[01:06:32.420 -> 01:06:36.600] So it would take years for this to get in front of a judge and it will be a complex
[01:06:36.600 -> 01:06:37.600] case anyway.
[01:06:37.600 -> 01:06:42.600] So I think you'd be looking at a good three, four years to get where.
[01:06:42.600 -> 01:06:48.960] So I think we're close to being done with an update on this, because
[01:06:48.960 -> 01:06:55.280] we're still awaiting this decision that's meant to be the 15th of November deadline.
[01:06:55.280 -> 01:07:02.160] Is there anything the FIA could answer that would just kill this? So could the FIA turn around and
[01:07:02.160 -> 01:07:06.600] go, do you know what? We've judged it and we are going to cancel the Singapore Grand Prix.
[01:07:06.600 -> 01:07:10.720] I know there's no precedence, but we've just decided to do that to make this go away.
[01:07:10.960 -> 01:07:13.400] Like, is that a technical possibility?
[01:07:14.480 -> 01:07:14.840] No.
[01:07:15.240 -> 01:07:16.040] Oh, why?
[01:07:16.520 -> 01:07:21.600] I don't think they'd end up doing that just based on threats that have been made in correspondence.
[01:07:21.920 -> 01:07:26.480] At the moment in that letter, basically Massa and his legal team will have said, we want
[01:07:26.480 -> 01:07:27.480] disclosure.
[01:07:27.480 -> 01:07:30.760] We want to know what you knew about that race in 2008.
[01:07:30.760 -> 01:07:33.320] We want to see the reports from the stewards.
[01:07:33.320 -> 01:07:40.800] We want to see even emails or WhatsApp messages or SMSs that were exchanged at the time.
[01:07:40.800 -> 01:07:48.360] We wasn't even WhatsApp in 2008 after all, but they'd want a lot of contemporaneous evidence because at the moment, they're sort of saying, look, we've got this issue, but
[01:07:48.360 -> 01:07:49.960] we need disclosure from you.
[01:07:49.960 -> 01:07:52.720] We need all of this evidence actually for us to make our claim.
[01:07:52.720 -> 01:07:56.040] So it's a bit of what we call a fishing expedition.
[01:07:56.040 -> 01:08:00.560] They're wanting to get evidence from the FIA and FOM, so they can then look at thinking,
[01:08:00.560 -> 01:08:03.820] well, will we go ahead and actually make a claim or not?
[01:08:03.820 -> 01:08:08.040] The chances of the FIA turning around and saying, you've sent that letter and go, you're
[01:08:08.040 -> 01:08:09.880] absolutely right, we'll give you that.
[01:08:09.880 -> 01:08:11.600] I just don't see it happening.
[01:08:11.600 -> 01:08:12.600] Okay.
[01:08:12.600 -> 01:08:13.600] No, no, fair enough.
[01:08:13.600 -> 01:08:17.480] So the likely outcome is the FIA are going to say, okay, no, we're not going to take
[01:08:17.480 -> 01:08:18.480] any action.
[01:08:18.480 -> 01:08:21.600] Please proceed with whatever it is that you're going to do.
[01:08:21.600 -> 01:08:23.200] And so this is now going to...
[01:08:23.200 -> 01:08:27.180] So once that deadline passes and they go, nah, that's it.
[01:08:27.180 -> 01:08:32.200] We're on this three year roller coaster and it becomes the least interesting topic ever,
[01:08:32.200 -> 01:08:36.960] apart from we're going to have to hear from Assa every Brazilian Grand Prix talking about
[01:08:36.960 -> 01:08:37.960] it.
[01:08:37.960 -> 01:08:38.960] Yeah.
[01:08:38.960 -> 01:08:39.960] So that's the most likely outcome.
[01:08:39.960 -> 01:08:40.960] Great.
[01:08:40.960 -> 01:08:44.840] Well, I mean, I'm glad we got the update, Peter, but it isn't the most thrilling.
[01:08:44.840 -> 01:08:45.800] Actually Michael. Yeah. I'm glad we got the update Peter, but it isn't the most thrilling. Actually, yeah.
[01:08:45.800 -> 01:08:46.800] Yeah.
[01:08:46.800 -> 01:08:47.800] Yeah.
[01:08:47.800 -> 01:08:50.840] I do have one question for you more.
[01:08:50.840 -> 01:08:57.760] The thing that I'm wondering most about, although again, like as you say, if this is mostly
[01:08:57.760 -> 01:09:02.660] going to be a fishing expedition, they're hoping to get to Discovery and find something
[01:09:02.660 -> 01:09:05.520] that's more of a smoking gun that might work for them.
[01:09:05.520 -> 01:09:09.440] And even then, if you look at how normally, like you say, oh, well, we'll throw them out
[01:09:09.440 -> 01:09:16.080] of the championship. It doesn't change. The only way that I recall the result really changes is if
[01:09:16.080 -> 01:09:22.160] you basically give Felipe Massa the position he was running in before his car caught fire in the pit
[01:09:22.160 -> 01:09:30.800] lane. And I don't know why they would do that because the whole rest of the race happened after that crash. But aside from that, in the FIA boilerplate,
[01:09:31.440 -> 01:09:39.520] there is set out a court of appeals that you can go to as long as you present new evidence.
[01:09:40.160 -> 01:09:45.360] And fundamentally, it would seem to me that this statement from Bernie Eccleston that
[01:09:45.360 -> 01:09:49.840] he since has disavowed would technically be that.
[01:09:49.840 -> 01:09:58.320] Is there, is it reasonable or why is it that they think that a court in England will simply
[01:09:58.320 -> 01:10:05.440] ignore the process already set out for him to start on from a legal point of view, questioning Stewart's
[01:10:05.440 -> 01:10:11.240] decisions and just say, oh, well, yeah, you did sign that agreement as a participant,
[01:10:11.240 -> 01:10:14.900] but we're going to ignore it and just let you come to our court and we'll adjudicate
[01:10:14.900 -> 01:10:15.900] it here.
[01:10:15.900 -> 01:10:17.400] I think you're quite right.
[01:10:17.400 -> 01:10:20.080] There would be that issue on jurisdiction.
[01:10:20.080 -> 01:10:24.400] There is also an argument, don't forget here, on the sheer length of time, certainly with
[01:10:24.400 -> 01:10:27.460] regards to the law in England and Wales, you have something called limitation.
[01:10:27.460 -> 01:10:31.600] If you were trying to sue on something six years after that happened in relation to anything
[01:10:31.600 -> 01:10:38.180] over say a contract or an incident, your statute barred, you're time bound, you can't turn
[01:10:38.180 -> 01:10:40.460] around 10, 15, 20 years later.
[01:10:40.460 -> 01:10:44.940] You can apply to the court and say, I want you to consider this, but the judge has to
[01:10:44.940 -> 01:10:45.200] think,
[01:10:45.200 -> 01:10:46.720] well, actually there's a real good reason
[01:10:46.720 -> 01:10:49.080] why we should disapply what the law says
[01:10:49.080 -> 01:10:51.240] with regards to limitation.
[01:10:51.240 -> 01:10:52.840] There is probably a similar thing
[01:10:52.840 -> 01:10:55.920] with regards to what's in the FIA statutes there,
[01:10:55.920 -> 01:10:57.640] Matt, as well.
[01:10:57.640 -> 01:10:59.400] And that could actually dictate the reason
[01:10:59.400 -> 01:11:03.600] why he's coming to the court, the high court,
[01:11:03.600 -> 01:11:05.360] because he knows full well that
[01:11:05.360 -> 01:11:07.240] limitation means he simply can't do it there.
[01:11:07.640 -> 01:11:11.200] And I think that's part and parcel of what we're dealing with here.
[01:11:11.200 -> 01:11:14.280] Even before you get near that three-year process, I say
[01:11:14.280 -> 01:11:15.320] limitation would come to play.
[01:11:15.320 -> 01:11:17.080] That could take you two years to sort this out.
[01:11:17.640 -> 01:11:24.040] Well, I can't wait to watch this slowly unfold, but I think it's great to get
[01:11:24.040 -> 01:11:25.800] that update because I think the update is
[01:11:25.800 -> 01:11:32.600] that this is, as a story, is pretty much dead from an interest point of view. And at some
[01:11:32.600 -> 01:11:37.600] point in 2028, it's not your fault that that's the case. And I appreciate the update. I'm
[01:11:37.600 -> 01:11:42.640] not like, no, Peter, why did you bother? Because I think people got this feeling like something's
[01:11:42.640 -> 01:11:48.000] going to happen imminently. And what you've done is you've managed our expectations for that.
[01:11:48.000 -> 01:11:49.120] It didn't come out like that.
[01:11:49.120 -> 01:11:52.000] It came out like, thanks a bunch, righty.
[01:11:52.000 -> 01:11:53.040] That's what it came out as.
[01:11:53.040 -> 01:11:54.240] I accept that.
[01:11:54.240 -> 01:11:59.120] All right, let's move on to something that is realistic and might happen slightly sooner.
[01:12:04.560 -> 01:12:06.320] That's my breaking news sound.
[01:12:06.320 -> 01:12:10.240] As Matt, you brought me some breaking news via Chris Medland's Twitter account, which
[01:12:10.240 -> 01:12:12.280] is where most news comes from.
[01:12:12.280 -> 01:12:17.560] Well, that's where all news comes from for those in the know.
[01:12:17.560 -> 01:12:29.180] But it turns out that I think in the latest, in the raising the stakes department, GM has officially applied to be a power unit manufacturer as of
[01:12:29.180 -> 01:12:33.740] 2028, saying they plan to partner with, you guessed it,
[01:12:34.160 -> 01:12:40.140] Andretti. So it's just one more because we've also heard, you
[01:12:40.140 -> 01:12:44.240] know, that maybe there had been some approaches to GM, gee,
[01:12:44.240 -> 01:12:49.120] wouldn't you really rather work with one of our other teams that already exist and not this
[01:12:49.120 -> 01:12:52.800] silly Andretti startup that will probably be crap anyway?
[01:12:53.320 -> 01:12:56.260] We don't know the truth of those exactly, but, but certainly those
[01:12:56.260 -> 01:12:57.580] rumors were floating around.
[01:12:58.040 -> 01:13:04.660] So it just seems like the latest in what to me is an incomprehensible saga of.
[01:13:08.560 -> 01:13:13.600] in what to me is an incomprehensible saga of, there's no really good reason to say no, other than the current teams are just being, well, toddlers about it, if I'm being honest.
[01:13:13.600 -> 01:13:18.000] Okay. So just to get our facts straight here, because that is the next topic that Peter's going
[01:13:18.000 -> 01:13:24.080] to be bringing us insight into, is basically Andretti's bid to join Formula One. So Chris
[01:13:24.080 -> 01:13:25.520] Medlin says, breaking.
[01:13:25.760 -> 01:13:29.840] General Motors say it has registered with the FIA to be an F1 power unit
[01:13:29.840 -> 01:13:31.600] manufacturer from 2028 onwards.
[01:13:31.920 -> 01:13:35.320] Cadillac would, Andretti, Andretti Cadillac would be powered by GM power units
[01:13:35.360 -> 01:13:37.400] should it be successful with this F1 entry.
[01:13:37.560 -> 01:13:41.160] Now that doesn't say the FIA have completely approved it or they've
[01:13:41.160 -> 01:13:46.520] started building it, all they're saying is that they've registered to be an F1 power unit.
[01:13:46.520 -> 01:13:48.160] That could be filling a form in.
[01:13:48.160 -> 01:13:53.240] So I'm not hearing anything from the FIA rubber stamping this at the moment.
[01:13:53.240 -> 01:13:55.500] So I mean, that shows willing from GM.
[01:13:55.500 -> 01:14:01.000] But this is what we want to speak to you about, Peter, is basically where does it stand?
[01:14:01.000 -> 01:14:02.000] Where are we?
[01:14:02.000 -> 01:14:07.040] Because the last I basically think I had my head around it was that Andretti had been
[01:14:07.040 -> 01:14:13.080] approved by the FIA and nothing could really stop them lining up on the grid now, except
[01:14:13.080 -> 01:14:16.760] the FOM could say, well, we're not going to point the cameras at you and then they don't
[01:14:16.760 -> 01:14:17.760] get any sponsors.
[01:14:17.760 -> 01:14:19.600] So it's a horrible mess.
[01:14:19.600 -> 01:14:21.840] The teams don't look great out of it.
[01:14:21.840 -> 01:14:23.480] The FIA doesn't look great out of it.
[01:14:23.480 -> 01:14:25.400] Sorry, the FOM doesn't look great out of it. The FIA doesn't look great out of it. Sorry, the FOM doesn't look great out of it.
[01:14:29.520 -> 01:14:31.320] FIA look like they're being almost deliberately provocative and it's all happening out in public.
[01:14:31.320 -> 01:14:33.920] We get to see all their pants drying on the line.
[01:14:35.520 -> 01:14:36.760] That's one way of putting it.
[01:14:36.760 -> 01:14:37.120] Yes.
[01:14:37.200 -> 01:14:42.120] So, yeah, I mean, can I first of all just say that I think you guys have
[01:14:42.120 -> 01:14:46.160] been real supporters of the idea of having a larger grid.
[01:14:46.160 -> 01:14:48.160] Something larger than 10. Yeah, yeah.
[01:14:48.160 -> 01:14:49.840] I'm quite open about that.
[01:14:49.840 -> 01:14:51.120] Yeah, 30 cars.
[01:14:51.120 -> 01:14:57.280] 30, no, hang on, hang on. 30 car grid. So we want, I want 15 three-car teams. So 45 cars,
[01:14:58.400 -> 01:15:02.880] days of pre-qualifying, that would get rid of sprint races. And I just solved it.
[01:15:03.920 -> 01:15:08.240] Well, exactly. It would make for a more interesting competition. That's just exactly what it should be.
[01:15:09.360 -> 01:15:14.400] And it seems that FOM have had this view of, oh, we have our 10 teams, and if you want to come in,
[01:15:14.400 -> 01:15:21.040] you buy a team. Very much in a sort of NFL style, where it's sort of the close shop, but it will
[01:15:21.040 -> 01:15:27.080] still move around because we have these teams, but they can move and be purchased and do different things.
[01:15:27.080 -> 01:15:33.120] But they seem to have made this decision without really thinking about how competition law
[01:15:33.120 -> 01:15:39.440] works in the EU, which the FIA is very heavily mindful of after its experience of being investigated
[01:15:39.440 -> 01:15:41.560] 20 years ago on this point.
[01:15:41.560 -> 01:15:48.800] So that's why the FIA has turned around and said, absolutely, you can come in, step this way. In fairness, they did go through a process and
[01:15:48.800 -> 01:15:52.560] whittled down from a number of entries down to just the one. And they said, well, this is our
[01:15:52.560 -> 01:15:57.360] criteria and we think you've met this. Well, a number of other teams or potential teams haven't.
[01:15:58.720 -> 01:16:10.080] And now it's a matter of, and I found it great having the insight from Joe Sayward on this because he's been very clear at saying what the view is of the teams and that the view of the team
[01:16:10.080 -> 01:16:15.600] seems to be that, well, look, there's not enough pie to warrant diluting it from 10
[01:16:15.600 -> 01:16:21.040] people having a slice of hundreds of millions to it then being 11 people having a slice.
[01:16:21.040 -> 01:16:30.280] But to a certain extent, I don't think they're necessarily viewing the fact, well, what about if you manage to grow said pie by having a US team growing the presence of the sport
[01:16:30.280 -> 01:16:32.560] in such a valuable market?
[01:16:32.560 -> 01:16:38.400] It's also, just to further the NFL analogy for a minute, you look at the size of a sport
[01:16:38.400 -> 01:16:44.640] like that and the commensurate size of the teams, they are way bigger than the Formula
[01:16:44.640 -> 01:16:45.680] One teams in terms of
[01:16:45.680 -> 01:16:49.640] their monetary value, which makes you think the sport has not necessarily
[01:16:49.640 -> 01:16:53.800] peaked yet. I think certainly a lot of those who bought teams a few years ago
[01:16:53.800 -> 01:16:57.120] are now looking and thinking, oh, cash out here and make a great deal. Who wouldn't?
[01:16:57.120 -> 01:17:01.320] But potentially, we don't know exactly where it's going to go, but when you look
[01:17:01.320 -> 01:17:04.680] at the presence of other sports, not to mention the success that the sport is
[01:17:04.680 -> 01:17:08.120] having through Netflix and the way that in fairness, Liberty has
[01:17:08.120 -> 01:17:13.200] grown a sport in recent years, of which Vegas this weekend is just the latest example. And
[01:17:13.200 -> 01:17:16.520] it'd be interesting to see if actually you could grow that pie and then it won't matter
[01:17:16.520 -> 01:17:17.520] quite so much.
[01:17:17.520 -> 01:17:21.960] So now this is the argument me and Matt have been having. So obviously there's the technical
[01:17:21.960 -> 01:17:30.320] sides of the argument, but there's a real kind of argument to say, is this actually a good faith process? Because there's all these theoretical
[01:17:30.320 -> 01:17:37.360] obstacles in the way, yet there's no definitive FOM rubber stamp. There's no, you know, Liberty
[01:17:37.360 -> 01:17:43.600] haven't said, yes, ah, fantastic. They got through the FIA process. Phew, that's what we've been
[01:17:43.600 -> 01:17:45.600] waiting on. Come on, Come on in, pull up
[01:17:45.600 -> 01:17:51.360] a chair. Let's talk about how much money you get. There's been a kind of united front where Liberty
[01:17:51.360 -> 01:17:56.800] haven't had to do that because they've deployed the teams almost on their behalf. Is that too
[01:17:56.800 -> 01:18:02.720] cynical to say like, you know, Stroll came out saying, it ain't broke, don't fix it. And Christian
[01:18:02.720 -> 01:18:05.420] Horner came out and said, well, you'd need your own engine.
[01:18:05.420 -> 01:18:11.380] And now that they've basically are saying, well, we'll have our own engine in 2028, what
[01:18:11.380 -> 01:18:12.760] would Horner say to that?
[01:18:12.760 -> 01:18:15.340] Would he move the goalposts or would he go, oh, good point.
[01:18:15.340 -> 01:18:16.500] Oh, no, you're right.
[01:18:16.500 -> 01:18:20.260] I said get an engine and you have, so come on in.
[01:18:20.260 -> 01:18:22.780] Is the process actually in good faith?
[01:18:22.780 -> 01:18:31.840] But just standing back for a moment, does this not illustrate the problem of having the competitors having such a large say in the governance and
[01:18:31.840 -> 01:18:34.960] operation of the sport? Massively.
[01:18:34.960 -> 01:18:46.680] Bingo. Bingo. Yep. You're right on it. And to me, I don't know, because this is not a new topic for the two of us.
[01:18:46.680 -> 01:18:49.320] We've chatted about it in private before.
[01:18:49.320 -> 01:18:57.900] And to me, I'm just really gobsmacked that FOM and Liberty think they have any real say
[01:18:57.900 -> 01:19:06.700] whatsoever over this process, because the last settlement sort of clearly says that the FIA is the sole regulatory body
[01:19:06.700 -> 01:19:14.420] for the sport and basically says you have to sell off your commercial rights to prevent
[01:19:14.420 -> 01:19:17.580] your regulatory powers being used for monopoly purposes.
[01:19:17.580 -> 01:19:22.500] Well, if you have a legitimate team and you don't let them race because you want to make
[01:19:22.500 -> 01:19:29.840] more money by not letting them race, is that not by very definition putting them in danger of an EU investigation?
[01:19:29.840 -> 01:19:34.800] Brilliant. And this is the perfect thing to have Peter on with because my argument was that the
[01:19:34.800 -> 01:19:40.720] tactic that Liberty would use is say, well, we've been trying to negotiate a commercial deal with
[01:19:40.720 -> 01:19:51.680] them and gosh darn it, you know what, we just can't quite come to a satisfactory conclusion. You know, at what point can a court say, well, that's uncompetitive
[01:19:51.680 -> 01:19:57.220] and actually, you know, mediate or arbitrate on that, those negotiations. And part two
[01:19:57.220 -> 01:20:03.280] of that question is why is the EU court so important in an international sport owned
[01:20:03.280 -> 01:20:06.000] by Americans? Is that? Are they fair questions?
[01:20:06.000 -> 01:20:13.000] Well, I know that we're keeping this to a tight half hour today, so I'll try and limit
[01:20:13.000 -> 01:20:15.000] the pack story on that.
[01:20:15.000 -> 01:20:20.000] But the point here is that there was a major investigation into Formula One back in the
[01:20:20.000 -> 01:20:23.000] 1990s, although they were split with long memories.
[01:20:23.000 -> 01:20:29.000] And it took years of investigation, years of instability until, as Matt referenced there,
[01:20:29.000 -> 01:20:35.360] you had the FIA then in effect putting a lease on the commercial rights, which then went
[01:20:35.360 -> 01:20:38.420] to FOM.
[01:20:38.420 -> 01:20:42.560] And it all came down to potentially acting as a cartel and being in breach of EU law.
[01:20:42.560 -> 01:20:44.240] Can you remind us what happened then?
[01:20:44.240 -> 01:20:46.480] Because I can't remember this from the 90s.
[01:20:46.480 -> 01:20:48.640] What did they do that landed them in hot water?
[01:20:48.640 -> 01:20:49.200] We got time.
[01:20:50.000 -> 01:20:55.760] Well, in essence, Bernie was using his ability to control...
[01:20:56.960 -> 01:21:03.040] He would write to a track and say, if you want Formula One, you can have Formula One,
[01:21:03.600 -> 01:21:07.120] but only if you don't let these other series race
[01:21:07.120 -> 01:21:14.400] here. And he was doing this, I think, somewhat hysterically. Now, I'm going off of memory.
[01:21:14.400 -> 01:21:19.280] Normally, if I knew this was a topic, I'd go back and research and be certain of all my facts.
[01:21:19.280 -> 01:21:24.320] But my memory is the complaint came from someone who owned a truck racing series,
[01:21:24.320 -> 01:21:26.000] that I think he either had a
[01:21:26.000 -> 01:21:31.760] competitor series or he wanted to take over the TV rights to it. So in essence, he was making sure
[01:21:31.760 -> 01:21:37.720] they couldn't go to any good tracks and essentially trying to, but then they wound up making some
[01:21:37.720 -> 01:21:45.440] third-party deal. And by the time this actually got settled, it wasn't really an issue anymore. But those are in essence, the tactics that were being
[01:21:45.440 -> 01:21:56.720] used and not just there, A1GP, there were numerous complaints about, well, evidence of tactics like
[01:21:56.720 -> 01:22:01.760] this that could be gone back and found should you choose to. And-
[01:22:01.760 -> 01:22:08.200] Peter's a genius because you're going to get sued now, and he completely palmed that off.
[01:22:08.200 -> 01:22:16.840] But what I love about this is the original report to the FIA was about them wanting to
[01:22:16.840 -> 01:22:27.680] change their own regulations post SINA, post-Emila. And while that was winding its way through the unbelievably
[01:22:27.680 -> 01:22:34.560] tedious and lengthy bureaucracy, these other complaints showed up and wound up being the
[01:22:34.560 -> 01:22:41.600] basis for the settlement that, as Peter says, saw the FIA having to lease their commercial rights,
[01:22:41.600 -> 01:22:45.680] which also answers the question of, do Liberty own Formula 1?
[01:22:45.680 -> 01:22:50.320] No, they lease it from the FIA is exactly what it is.
[01:22:51.120 -> 01:22:57.280] And indeed, you've then got the FIA solely in there as the regulator. And again, Joe Sowood
[01:22:57.280 -> 01:23:04.800] has given us great history on the issues there and the tensions between the teams and FOM, Liberty
[01:23:04.800 -> 01:23:05.480] wanting to go in a certain direction and FOM, Liberty, wanting to go
[01:23:05.480 -> 01:23:09.280] in a certain direction and then saying, oh, you know, it'd be quite nice if we could just
[01:23:09.280 -> 01:23:14.540] get rid of the FIA and their awkward stewards and administrators because we don't agree
[01:23:14.540 -> 01:23:16.480] with some of the decisions that they make.
[01:23:16.480 -> 01:23:21.360] Well, you know, that's how we litigate some of the problems that have happened there.
[01:23:21.360 -> 01:23:25.120] But as Matt rightly says, can't really pull that
[01:23:25.120 -> 01:23:31.920] relationship apart due to this precedent and rather painful history that Formula One as
[01:23:31.920 -> 01:23:36.080] a whole has gone through in order to reach the position that it's in now.
[01:23:36.080 -> 01:23:41.520] That is actually a really valuable insight. I was completely unaware of any of that, I
[01:23:41.520 -> 01:23:46.000] think because I was probably like 11 at the time. So, but you've gone back,
[01:23:46.000 -> 01:23:50.160] you're, we're the same age, but you've obviously researched your history and you have a legal
[01:23:50.160 -> 01:23:54.880] knowledge of stuff like that. I wasn't implying that Peter was much, much older than me. Ignore
[01:23:54.880 -> 01:24:00.720] the visuals that you're seeing on the screen. We're about the same age. But why is the EU so
[01:24:00.720 -> 01:24:07.160] important in this, in this process? We are the same age, but I'm afraid this shows what I was doing in my teenage years was reading
[01:24:07.160 -> 01:24:11.120] about FIA statutes and competition law.
[01:24:11.120 -> 01:24:16.140] Well, if you want to play like a bar pool or beer pong, I will be better at that.
[01:24:16.140 -> 01:24:19.000] So that's the difference in our twenties probably.
[01:24:19.000 -> 01:24:21.360] So yeah, why is the EU so important?
[01:24:21.360 -> 01:24:27.360] And if I had to guess, I would guess that Liberty are never going to turn around and just say
[01:24:27.360 -> 01:24:31.000] no, because that would be a disaster, but things can be drawn out.
[01:24:31.000 -> 01:24:34.600] At what point would the EU get involved?
[01:24:34.600 -> 01:24:41.280] So this is a slightly more complex issue because they are also talking about the regulatory
[01:24:41.280 -> 01:24:43.560] reach and influence of the European Union.
[01:24:43.560 -> 01:24:49.080] So we've got a lot of the FOM companies are still corporate entities based in
[01:24:49.080 -> 01:24:55.240] London, London is now of course in the UK outside of the European Union, but the UK
[01:24:55.240 -> 01:24:58.320] does have a trade and cooperation agreement with the EU.
[01:24:58.680 -> 01:25:04.280] But quite explicitly that excludes a regulatory reach from the European Union.
[01:25:04.360 -> 01:25:09.360] that excludes a regulatory reach from the European Union. However, we have teams based in the European Union,
[01:25:09.880 -> 01:25:11.280] notably Ferrari.
[01:25:11.280 -> 01:25:14.960] We have consumers based in the European Union,
[01:25:14.960 -> 01:25:18.000] couple hundred million people who do like to watch
[01:25:18.000 -> 01:25:20.600] Formula One and are perceived to be a sufficiently
[01:25:20.600 -> 01:25:23.880] important market for races like Las Vegas
[01:25:23.880 -> 01:25:25.040] to be taking place in the middle
[01:25:25.040 -> 01:25:29.520] of the night to make it watchable for an EU market.
[01:25:29.520 -> 01:25:36.460] And we've had start times shifted so that it's not quite so early for EU viewers to
[01:25:36.460 -> 01:25:38.600] have to set their alarm clocks for.
[01:25:38.600 -> 01:25:45.120] So from that point of view, you've then got the sort of collective, the EU looking at that and
[01:25:45.120 -> 01:25:52.160] therefore the rules that the EU has in relation to that market therefore become more important.
[01:25:52.160 -> 01:25:56.640] You've also got, and I think this is something that's sometimes probably not understood quite
[01:25:56.640 -> 01:26:02.740] so much, is the fact that the European approach to regulation is to do these investigations
[01:26:02.740 -> 01:26:04.320] and to be quite proactive.
[01:26:04.320 -> 01:26:08.240] They will, just on the back of, as Matt was saying there, a complaint will be enough for
[01:26:08.240 -> 01:26:14.820] them to mobilize quite significant resources into investigating, reaching a decision, looking
[01:26:14.820 -> 01:26:15.820] at enforcement.
[01:26:15.820 -> 01:26:20.560] That enforcement can be very, very large and coming out with fines and measures and saying,
[01:26:20.560 -> 01:26:29.000] this is what you'll have to do in order to play in our marketplace, which I know is very, very different from certainly in the US where, for example, if the federal
[01:26:29.000 -> 01:26:32.240] government wants to regulate something or a federal government agency wants to do something,
[01:26:32.240 -> 01:26:36.560] you very often got to drag that party all the way through court and go through that
[01:26:36.560 -> 01:26:40.400] lovely litigious process that we were talking about earlier on.
[01:26:40.400 -> 01:26:45.700] So I know that this isn't, I suppose, as accessible or understandable an issue when
[01:26:45.700 -> 01:26:50.160] it comes to regulation like that for those in many other countries around the world.
[01:26:50.160 -> 01:26:55.900] But that's why the EU's approach, and that's why with it being potentially quicker than
[01:26:55.900 -> 01:27:01.260] having to go all the way through court, that's why, again, FOM and the FIA are being a lot
[01:27:01.260 -> 01:27:05.000] more alert to the threat of potentially being in breach of EU
[01:27:05.000 -> 01:27:07.240] law than they might have otherwise have been.
[01:27:07.240 -> 01:27:13.400] But FIA, so with Mohammed bin Salaam as the president, they're clear of all of this because
[01:27:13.400 -> 01:27:14.640] they've said yes.
[01:27:14.640 -> 01:27:19.880] So now it is just Liberty Media that is at risk of running into a foul of any competition
[01:27:19.880 -> 01:27:21.200] law.
[01:27:21.200 -> 01:27:26.080] So if we get the feeling that Liberty don't really want Andretti in, and when I
[01:27:26.080 -> 01:27:31.400] say Liberty, that's Liberty and the teams as a... This is speculation for me. Liberty
[01:27:31.400 -> 01:27:38.280] and the teams as a super team of 11 entities are all like, no, and they don't want it.
[01:27:38.280 -> 01:27:42.480] How long can they drag it out before somebody gets involved? Because you've only got to
[01:27:42.480 -> 01:27:45.120] drag this out for a season or two before you're
[01:27:45.120 -> 01:27:50.080] really scuppering them for the next regulation set, for example, and just making it commercially
[01:27:50.080 -> 01:27:53.600] unviable. You keep dragging it out to the point where they just go, do you know what, then I'm
[01:27:53.600 -> 01:27:58.720] not playing. Or do they have enough money to grid up and have Liberty Media not point the cameras
[01:27:58.720 -> 01:28:06.080] at them? Yeah. And I mean, to a certain extent as well, I took about a disclaimer earlier on, I think
[01:28:06.080 -> 01:28:09.200] it's the first disclaimer here is that we haven't seen a copy of the Concord Agreement,
[01:28:09.200 -> 01:28:13.160] which is the confidential agreement governing the commercial relationship between the teams
[01:28:13.160 -> 01:28:17.440] and the FOM and in turn, the FIA.
[01:28:17.440 -> 01:28:19.160] We haven't seen that as a confidential document.
[01:28:19.160 -> 01:28:22.280] If you write to the FIA or the teams and say, can I have a look?
[01:28:22.280 -> 01:28:26.960] They tend to reply very nicely and say no no. Uh, cause it's a commercial confidential document, but that
[01:28:27.040 -> 01:28:29.640] governs a lot of, a lot of the questions we're asking here are
[01:28:29.640 -> 01:28:32.000] governed by what's in that document.
[01:28:32.040 -> 01:28:36.280] And it is currently being renegotiated for another term.
[01:28:36.600 -> 01:28:40.280] So of course, Andretti are not a part of that.
[01:28:40.600 -> 01:28:43.120] Those negotiations they'd like to be, they'd like to be
[01:28:43.120 -> 01:28:44.720] inside rather than outside.
[01:28:45.520 -> 01:28:50.840] Um, but you make a good point there about negotiations for new Concord are moving on, the new regulatory
[01:28:50.840 -> 01:28:55.760] settlement as well as then new rules are always being considered all the time.
[01:28:55.760 -> 01:28:58.160] And unfortunately they're in this position of being outside.
[01:28:58.160 -> 01:29:02.840] But I think there's also, when we look again at what Formula One is now, you've talked
[01:29:02.840 -> 01:29:08.400] about GM coming in, Chris Medlin's story that's great. We'll have more manufacturers, one of the world's biggest
[01:29:08.400 -> 01:29:14.160] manufacturers coming into F1. We've got Audi coming in again from another one of the world's
[01:29:14.160 -> 01:29:20.160] biggest manufacturers. There's a lot of corporate interests here. Those corporate interests would
[01:29:20.160 -> 01:29:25.240] not like to join a sport where there is a potential EU regulatory investigation
[01:29:25.240 -> 01:29:26.760] on the horizon.
[01:29:26.760 -> 01:29:31.160] So I think people are going to want to get this thing settled, certainly in those boardrooms
[01:29:31.160 -> 01:29:35.360] where they're making decisions that are going to be to invest hundreds of millions of dollars
[01:29:35.360 -> 01:29:37.880] and euros every year into a sport.
[01:29:37.880 -> 01:29:39.120] I think you're going to want stability.
[01:29:39.120 -> 01:29:41.280] You're not going to want uncertainty like this in the market.
[01:29:41.280 -> 01:29:45.320] I think at this point, it's actually incredible that GM have dug in and backed Andretti as
[01:29:45.320 -> 01:29:46.320] much as they have.
[01:29:46.320 -> 01:29:50.560] And I think that's a sign of clearly the bond they have with Andretti and also the respect
[01:29:50.560 -> 01:29:54.540] with which Michael and Mario Andretti are held.
[01:29:54.540 -> 01:29:59.960] And also the fact that Ford is already on board in this sport and they don't want to
[01:29:59.960 -> 01:30:10.360] be left behind as it becomes more popular. In the U.S., we've seen other manufacturers, Mercedes, come in, do very well, capitalizing
[01:30:10.360 -> 01:30:16.900] on their success and participation in Formula 1, and GM will not want Ford to have that
[01:30:16.900 -> 01:30:18.520] kind of an advantage.
[01:30:18.520 -> 01:30:26.760] And I think that may be part of the reason that we heard this, as Spanners points out, announcement about 2028 that's more of
[01:30:26.760 -> 01:30:32.720] an intention than a done deal at this point, but it is more leverage for them.
[01:30:32.720 -> 01:30:33.720] Okay.
[01:30:33.720 -> 01:30:35.160] Peter, just to end then, guess.
[01:30:35.160 -> 01:30:38.240] Andretti on the grid, yes or no, and when?
[01:30:38.240 -> 01:30:41.000] Put your fan hat on, take your lawyer hat off.
[01:30:41.000 -> 01:30:43.960] When and if and how?
[01:30:43.960 -> 01:30:45.620] So I'd like to see Andretti on the grid.
[01:30:45.620 -> 01:30:47.340] That's not the question, Mr. Wright.
[01:30:47.340 -> 01:30:48.340] Just let me finish.
[01:30:48.340 -> 01:30:49.340] Just let me finish.
[01:30:49.340 -> 01:30:51.640] I'm badgering the witness.
[01:30:51.640 -> 01:30:53.580] Even if the argument is, oh, well, they'll be at the back of the grid.
[01:30:53.580 -> 01:30:54.580] Well, let's find out.
[01:30:54.580 -> 01:30:57.540] There's no point saying, oh, well, this is definitely where they'll be.
[01:30:57.540 -> 01:31:02.500] Put them on the grid, let them compete for a period of time, and it's the old argument
[01:31:02.500 -> 01:31:03.780] of did the French Revolution work?
[01:31:03.780 -> 01:31:04.780] Well, we can't be sure.
[01:31:04.780 -> 01:31:06.360] It's 200 years and it's still going on.
[01:31:06.360 -> 01:31:10.680] You have to let these things play out properly.
[01:31:10.680 -> 01:31:11.680] Do we want them on the grid?
[01:31:11.680 -> 01:31:12.680] Yes.
[01:31:12.680 -> 01:31:18.560] I'd like to see them on there with GM supplying an original powertrain as quickly as possible.
[01:31:18.560 -> 01:31:20.280] Is it going to happen before 2025?
[01:31:20.280 -> 01:31:21.280] No.
[01:31:21.280 -> 01:31:25.320] And I think a lot would have to happen for them to be on the grid in 2025
[01:31:25.320 -> 01:31:26.320] with a customer engine.
[01:31:26.320 -> 01:31:31.440] So I think we're already at the point where it's looking at 2026 as being the more realistic
[01:31:31.440 -> 01:31:32.440] point.
[01:31:32.440 -> 01:31:33.520] But I want to see them on the grid.
[01:31:33.520 -> 01:31:35.400] I want to see them bringing more drivers on.
[01:31:35.400 -> 01:31:38.960] We need more spots for more young drivers to get into this sport because it's become
[01:31:38.960 -> 01:31:43.560] a closed shop in terms of the teams, it's becoming a closed shop for the drivers.
[01:31:43.560 -> 01:31:49.440] The sad thing is, if it's this hard for Andretti, which is a massively famous name in Formula
[01:31:49.440 -> 01:31:55.520] One with a huge engine supplier behind them, that really doesn't make my dream of a 45
[01:31:55.520 -> 01:32:00.320] car grid with lots of pre-qualifying, doesn't make it seem very viable at all.
[01:32:00.320 -> 01:32:03.560] But thank you very much for your precious time, Peter.
[01:32:03.560 -> 01:32:06.400] I will have the diamond hand delivered
[01:32:06.400 -> 01:32:12.480] for you to add to your Lexus. Go and follow Peter at DigitalLawUK still on Twitter Peter
[01:32:12.480 -> 01:32:19.360] and we'll get you back on soon. Thank you very much and hopefully all of you will join us live
[01:32:19.360 -> 01:32:27.840] at midday on Sunday as we have a very very strange schedule. I will be up at 3am to head down
[01:32:27.840 -> 01:32:33.760] to London to Tomo F1's studio where me and Brad will join them for a live watch along
[01:32:33.760 -> 01:32:38.640] for what I think is a 6am start in the UK and then we will be doing our race review
[01:32:38.640 -> 01:32:43.000] at midday on Sunday and of course you can catch me on the ringer with Meg as well later
[01:32:43.000 -> 01:32:47.000] in the afternoon. So until we see you next, work hard, be kind and have fun.
[01:32:47.000 -> 01:33:10.000] This was MissedApexPodcast. ♪♪
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