Podcast: Missed Apex
Published Date:
Sun, 14 May 2023 21:48:49 GMT
Duration:
1:42:39
Explicit:
False
Guests:
MP3 Audio:
Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Spanners and Trumpets are joined by the scintillating Head of Production for Driver61 and OVERDRIVE, Callum McIntyre as they check all the tyre pressures ahead of the Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix. From downgrading Devries to Pirelli’s preemptions, from sim racing satisfaction to Caterham cockpit, no on throttle oversteer goes uncorrected in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast.
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Spanners Ready Spanners���� (@SpannersReady)
spanners@missedapex.net
Matt Trumpets mattpt55 (@mattpt55)
Matt Trumpets (@mattpt55@mastodon.social)
Head of Production for Driver61 and OVERDRIVE Callum McIntyre (8) Callum McIntyre (@virtuallycallum) / Twitter
Does Being Fast in the Sim, Mean Fast in Real Racing? - YouTube
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**Extended Tire Segment**
- **Spanners:** Matt, you're the resident tire expert. Give us an extended tire segment.
- **Matt:** Tires are an essential part of Formula One racing, providing grip and traction to the cars. They are also a strategic element, as teams must choose the right tires for the conditions and the race strategy.
- **Callum:** I've been learning a lot about tires recently, and it's fascinating how much they impact the performance of the car.
- **Spanners:** So, let's talk about the different types of tires that Pirelli brings to each race.
- **Matt:** Pirelli brings three different types of tires to each race: hard, medium, and soft. The hard tires are the most durable and provide the least grip, while the soft tires are the least durable and provide the most grip. The medium tires are in between the two.
- **Callum:** So, teams have to choose which tires to use for each stint of the race.
- **Matt:** Yes, and that's where the strategy comes in. Teams need to decide how many laps they want to do on each set of tires, and they need to make sure that they have enough tires to last the entire race.
- **Spanners:** What are some of the factors that teams consider when choosing tires?
- **Matt:** Teams consider a number of factors when choosing tires, including the weather conditions, the track surface, and the car's setup. They also need to take into account the performance of the different tires over the course of a stint.
- **Callum:** It sounds like there's a lot of data and analysis that goes into making these decisions.
- **Matt:** Absolutely. Teams have a lot of data on the tires, and they use that data to make informed decisions about which tires to use.
- **Spanners:** What are some of the challenges that drivers face when driving on different types of tires?
- **Matt:** Drivers face a number of challenges when driving on different types of tires. For example, hard tires can be more difficult to warm up, which can make them slippery at the start of a stint. Soft tires, on the other hand, can be more difficult to manage over a long stint, as they can wear out quickly.
- **Callum:** So, drivers have to adapt their driving style to the tires that they're using.
- **Matt:** That's right. Drivers need to be able to adjust their driving style to get the most out of the tires that they're using.
- **Spanners:** Thanks for the informative tire segment, Matt. I think we all have a better understanding of how important tires are in Formula One racing.
**Callum McIntyre Interview**
- **Spanners:** Callum, you've recently made the transition from sim racing to real-world racing. Can you tell us a bit about that?
- **Callum:** Sure. I've been sim racing for many years, and I've always been passionate about motorsports. A few years ago, I decided to try real-world racing, and I've been hooked ever since.
- **Spanners:** What are some of the biggest differences between sim racing and real-world racing?
- **Callum:** There are a lot of differences, but the biggest ones are the physical and mental challenges. In sim racing, you're sitting in a chair, and you don't have to worry about the G-forces or the physical demands of driving a real car. In real-world racing, you're dealing with all of those things, plus you have to be aware of the other drivers around you.
- **Spanners:** How did your sim racing experience help you in real-world racing?
- **Callum:** Sim racing helped me in a number of ways. First, it gave me a good understanding of the basics of car control. Second, it helped me to develop my racecraft and my ability to overtake other drivers. Third, it helped me to learn how to manage my tires and fuel.
- **Spanners:** What are some of the challenges you've faced in making the transition to real-world racing?
- **Callum:** One of the biggest challenges has been adapting to the physical demands of driving a real car. It's a lot more tiring than sim racing, and it takes a lot of practice to get used to the G-forces. Another challenge has been learning how to deal with the mental pressure of racing against other drivers. In sim racing, you can always restart if you make a mistake. In real-world racing, you don't have that luxury.
- **Spanners:** What are your goals for the future in real-world racing?
- **Callum:** My goal is to eventually race in the British Touring Car Championship. I know that it will be a long and difficult road, but I'm confident that I can achieve my goal with hard work and dedication.
- **Spanners:** Thanks for sharing your story, Callum. We wish you all the best in your future racing endeavors. **Navigating the Complexities of Formula One Tires: A Discussion with Experts**
In this episode of the Missed Apex Podcast, the hosts, along with Callum McIntyre, Head of Production for Driver61 and OVERDRIVE, delve into the intricate world of Formula One tires. The discussion explores various aspects of tire management, strategy, and the challenges faced by Pirelli, the sole tire supplier in the sport.
**Tire Talk: A Balancing Act**
The hosts acknowledge that tire discussions can be tedious, but they emphasize the significance of tires in Formula One. Tires are the only part of the car that touches the track, and they play a crucial role in determining the outcome of races.
**Pirelli's Dilemma: Meeting Conflicting Demands**
Pirelli faces the challenge of manufacturing tires that are both grippy and durable. The hosts highlight the Silverstone 2013 incident, where tire failures led to criticism against Pirelli. This incident brought to light the inherent conflict between creating tires that provide a strategic difference among teams and ensuring they are a reliable spec part.
**Tire Strategy: A Delicate Balance**
The hosts discuss the importance of tire strategy in Formula One. Teams must carefully select the three compounds available to them for qualifying, starting, and racing. The choice of tires can significantly impact the outcome of a race, as they affect the car's performance, pit stop strategy, and overall pace.
**The Role of Tire Pressure and Construction**
The hosts delve into the technical aspects of tire construction and pressure. They explain how stiffer sidewalls can lead to increased energy being transferred to the tread, potentially causing overheating and graining. They also discuss the possibility of introducing a pressure release valve to maintain consistent tire pressure throughout a race.
**The Quest for Exciting Racing: Pirelli's Objectives**
The hosts highlight Pirelli's goal of creating tires that promote exciting racing and drama. However, this objective is often at odds with the company's desire to avoid tire failures and maintain its reputation.
**Sustainable Tire Solutions: A Glimpse into the Future**
The hosts consider the sustainability of the current tire situation and explore potential solutions. They discuss suggestions such as reducing the number of tire compounds available and implementing a rule that requires teams to use all three compounds during a race.
**Bridging the Gap: Finding the Sweet Spot**
The hosts emphasize the need for a balance between one-stop and two-stop strategies. They suggest that a scenario where both strategies are within a second of each other would create exciting racing and reward driver skill and car performance.
**The Impact of Pit Lane Speed Limits on Tire Strategy**
The hosts discuss the influence of decreasing pit lane speed limits on tire strategy. They explain how longer pit deltas have led to the development of more robust tires, which in turn has contributed to the prevalence of one-stop strategies.
**Conclusion: The Ongoing Evolution of Tire Technology**
The hosts conclude the discussion by highlighting the ongoing evolution of tire technology in Formula One. They acknowledge the challenges faced by Pirelli and emphasize the importance of finding a balance between exciting racing, safety, and sustainability. * **Summary of Podcast Episode Transcript:**
**Introduction:**
- The podcast episode features hosts Spanners, Matt Trumpets, and Callum McIntyre, Head of Production for Driver61 and OVERDRIVE.
- They discuss various topics related to Formula One racing, including tire strategies, overtaking, and the influence of sim racing on real-world racing.
**Tire Strategies and Overtaking:**
- The hosts debate the effectiveness of Pirelli's tire compounds and their impact on race strategies.
- They question whether mandating the use of all three tire specifications would improve racing.
- They also discuss the challenges teams face in managing tire wear and degradation during races.
**Sim Racing and Real-World Racing:**
- Callum McIntyre shares his experience transitioning from sim racing to real-world racing in the Caterham Academy series.
- He highlights the transferable skills from sim racing, such as car control, racecraft, and situational awareness.
- The hosts discuss the benefits of sim racing as a training tool for aspiring racing drivers.
**Other Topics:**
- The hosts briefly touch on the controversy surrounding Nyck de Vries' demotion from AlphaTauri to reserve driver.
- They also mention Pirelli's preemptive tire allocations for the Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix.
**Overall Message:**
The podcast episode emphasizes the growing influence of sim racing on real-world racing and highlights the transferable skills that sim racers can bring to the track. It also highlights the challenges teams face in managing tire strategies and the impact of tire wear on race outcomes. **Missed Apex Podcast Episode Transcript: Spanners and Trumpets Joined by Callum McIntyre**
**Summary**
In this episode of the Missed Apex Podcast, hosts Spanners and Matt Trumpets are joined by Callum McIntyre, Head of Production for Driver61 and OVERDRIVE, to discuss the upcoming Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix. The trio covers a wide range of topics related to Formula One racing, including:
* Callum's recent experience downgrading from an F3 car to a Caterham, highlighting the differences in driving style and setup required for each vehicle.
* Pirelli's preemptive tire selections for the race, and the potential impact they may have on team strategies.
* The role of sim racing in preparing drivers for real-world racing, with Callum sharing his insights from competing in both virtual and physical events.
* The importance of learning to control oversteer and understeer, and how sim racing can help drivers develop these skills.
* The challenges of learning a new track quickly, and the techniques that Callum uses to adapt to unfamiliar circuits.
* The value of pushing the limits of a car's performance to discover its true potential, and how this approach can lead to faster lap times.
**Key Insights and Perspectives**
* Callum emphasizes the importance of adapting driving style and setup to suit the specific characteristics of each car, drawing on his experience transitioning from an F3 car to a Caterham.
* Sim racing can provide valuable training for real-world racing, particularly in terms of developing car control skills and learning how to manage oversteer and understeer.
* Learning a new track quickly requires a systematic approach that involves studying the layout, identifying braking points and gear changes, and building up speed gradually.
* Pushing the limits of a car's performance is essential for extracting the maximum potential from the vehicle, but it also requires careful risk assessment and a willingness to accept occasional mistakes.
**Memorable Quotes**
* "I felt, particularly in Caterham, you're right back over the rear wheel, so you feel everything, and it's so light. Honestly, the feedback it gives you, I'm sure, is second to none in a car like that." - Callum McIntyre
* "The thing about the wet lines you're talking about is that you might be thinking, oh, I didn't think it made that much difference, right? But if you're on the inside of the track going into a corner off the rubber, if you brake like that on the rubbery line, you're going straight off." - Matt Trumpets
* "So in the sim, when, when I learn a track, right, I've got a race in 20 minutes, I'm thinking about it and you're, you're going, you're basically, what I do is I take a guess of this car, this track, where are the breaking points going to be? What are the gears going to be? And you kind of go from there and you refine it." - Callum McIntyre
* "I was working up to the limit, not really going outside it. And he pulled me into the pits after two laps and said, right, you want to get faster over 50 laps. I need you to get faster over three corners. That's the difference." - Callum McIntyre
* "I've actually applied that to my sim racing. Since watching that video, that is one of the most useful things which is yeah just just like make make make it go to the point where you've taken too much apex speed. So, you know, you know what it's like and actually when you go to the limit you realize oh no I was leaving so much on the table." - Callum McIntyre
**Overall Message**
The episode highlights the growing significance of sim racing as a training tool for real-world racing, emphasizing the transferable skills and insights that can be gained from virtual racing experiences. It also underscores the importance of adaptability, risk-taking, and a willingness to push the limits in order to achieve peak performance on the track. * **Sim Racing vs. Real-Life Racing:**
- Sim racing provides a significant advantage when transitioning to real-life racing.
- It helps drivers develop fundamental skills such as car control, racecraft, and situational awareness.
- Sim racing allows drivers to gain experience in different cars and tracks, preparing them for various racing conditions.
- However, sim racing cannot fully replicate the physical and psychological aspects of real-life racing, such as G-forces and the fear factor.
- It takes time and practice to adjust to these differences and develop the necessary confidence and instincts for real-life racing.
* **Cost of Entry-Level Racing:**
- The cost of entry-level racing can vary depending on the series and the car used.
- Some club racing series, such as the Peugeot 206 series, can be relatively affordable, with a budget of around $14,000, including the car, safety equipment, and race entry fees.
- More advanced series, such as the Caterham series, require a higher budget, typically over $30,000, for the car, maintenance, and race expenses.
- However, these series often provide a more competitive and professional racing environment.
* **Similarities and Differences Between Sim Racing and Real-Life Racing:**
- Sim racing and real-life racing share many similarities, including the basic principles of car control, racecraft, and strategy.
- However, there are also some key differences, such as the lack of physical and psychological factors in sim racing.
- Sim racing can be a valuable tool for improving driving skills and gaining experience, but it cannot fully replace the need for real-life racing.
* **Benefits of Sim Racing:**
- Sim racing can help drivers develop fundamental skills and gain experience in different cars and tracks, preparing them for real-life racing.
- It can also be a fun and engaging way to learn about motorsports and improve driving skills.
- Sim racing can be more accessible and affordable than real-life racing, making it a great starting point for aspiring drivers.
* **Conclusion:**
- Sim racing and real-life racing are closely related but distinct disciplines.
- Sim racing can provide a valuable foundation for real-life racing but cannot fully replace the need for on-track experience.
- The cost of entry-level racing can vary depending on the series and the car used.
- Sim racing can be a fun and engaging way to learn about motorsports, improve driving skills, and prepare for real-life racing.
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[01:03.140 -> 01:10.500] You are listening to Miss apex podcast we live f1
[01:18.880 -> 01:24.080] welcome to missed apex podcast I'm your host Richard ready but my friends call
[01:24.080 -> 01:25.360] me Spanish so let's be friends we have a lull between the races as we head off to Missed Apex Podcast. I'm your host Richard Ready, but my friends call me Spanners. So
[01:25.360 -> 01:31.760] let's be friends. We have a lull between the races as we head off into a triple header at Imola,
[01:31.760 -> 01:38.400] Monaco and Barcelona. The whole season could be flipped on its head. So do you want us to talk
[01:38.400 -> 01:47.360] about potential upgrades and the order that could be unfolding in front of us? No! You lunatics have told me,
[01:47.360 -> 01:53.600] based on our last race review, that you would like us to go in-depth into tyres. So today we will
[01:53.600 -> 01:59.280] have an extended tyre segment with Matt Trumpets and we're also going to have Callum McIntyre from
[01:59.280 -> 02:05.760] Driver61 talking to us about how you can change your sim racing skills and convert them
[02:05.760 -> 02:10.640] onto the real world tracks. Plus we're also going to cover some Formula One
[02:10.640 -> 02:14.440] news. But first I want to tell you that we are an independent podcast produced
[02:14.440 -> 02:17.840] in the podcasting shed with the kind permission of our better halves. We aim
[02:17.840 -> 02:21.280] to bring you a race review before your Monday morning commute. We might be wrong
[02:21.280 -> 02:24.200] but we're first.
[02:22.400 -> 02:26.800] commute. We might be wrong, but we're first.
[02:29.880 -> 02:30.720] And here's your panel, Matt. Two rumpets.
[02:33.400 -> 02:33.920] Wait, wait, wait. Are those side pods I see in the distance?
[02:39.400 -> 02:39.480] No. Mercedes, I think, even tweeted a side pod picture.
[02:43.680 -> 02:43.800] And I went, hallelujah, finally, Mercedes are going to have some side pods.
[02:47.920 -> 02:48.560] But it turns out it was a photo from the F1 2023 game.
[02:52.160 -> 02:55.520] Oh, those teasers know exactly what they're doing. Although, to be fair, it's not really the side pods that are the problem.
[02:55.520 -> 02:58.080] And we're joined by a special guest from Driver 61.
[02:58.080 -> 03:00.240] It's Callum McIntyre. How's it going, Callum?
[03:00.240 -> 03:04.400] Hey, Spanners. I always feel sad when Top Gear cut off one of James May's rants,
[03:04.400 -> 03:09.000] and I feel exactly the same way when you cut off Matt talking about tires, so I'm glad to be talking about it today
[03:09.000 -> 03:11.480] Yes, and so on the race review, right?
[03:11.480 -> 03:15.800] I will defend myself a little bit because people go oh let Matt go on and on about tires
[03:16.080 -> 03:21.500] But on a race review, I feel like the tires, yes, they're an engineering product
[03:22.040 -> 03:25.040] But they're a tool so when it comes to the race, it's all about
[03:25.040 -> 03:30.800] how the drivers use that tool, how the teams use that tool, and I suppose how the strategists
[03:30.800 -> 03:36.800] use that tool. I don't want to get into manufacturing techniques or any kind of philosophical debate
[03:36.800 -> 03:41.020] about the place of tyres in Formula One, when what I really want to do is play Whose Fault
[03:41.020 -> 03:44.680] Is It? and talk about Fernando Alonso and Taylor Swift.
[03:44.680 -> 03:48.480] Which sadly, I don't think my daughter cited at the concert.
[03:48.480 -> 03:54.400] Yeah, I think it might have been a very successful PR exercise, but something of a lie.
[03:54.400 -> 03:58.720] But look, what we're going to do is we are going to have that extended tire segment,
[03:58.720 -> 04:03.600] and I have some learning points because I'm definitely outclassed by the expertise
[04:03.600 -> 04:05.680] of my two panelists today.
[04:05.680 -> 04:10.240] And then we're going to get into what Callum has done, which is something incredible,
[04:10.240 -> 04:15.040] which has turned, and I hope this isn't offensive Callum, some fairly middle of the road,
[04:15.040 -> 04:22.320] mediocre sim skills on a not too dissimilar level that I'm at, and turn that into a real world,
[04:22.320 -> 04:25.440] actually pretty impressive performance in a real world series.
[04:25.440 -> 04:30.560] So we're going to get into that but not until we've dived into a little bit of the big dirty news.
[04:33.040 -> 04:34.640] Big Dirty News
[04:40.560 -> 04:46.800] Rumors abound about Daniel Ricciardo getting a seat fitting at Alpha Tauri and this comes
[04:46.800 -> 04:52.960] off the back of some disappointing results and performances from the Alpha Tauri rookie
[04:52.960 -> 04:57.640] Nick De Vries, who is making a bit of a name for himself at the moment for being a little
[04:57.640 -> 05:04.280] bit prone to using drivers and walls as his brake. And it's not looked good and what we
[05:04.280 -> 05:05.840] said in the last race review was
[05:05.840 -> 05:11.120] what we need from Nick de Vries is to not hear anything from him at all for the next few races
[05:11.120 -> 05:16.320] he needs to be anonymous do the solid work get through some Grands Prixs without being a headline
[05:16.320 -> 05:21.840] name and it turns out Matt that Helmut Marko agrees and has said that he's he's actually quite
[05:21.840 -> 05:31.280] severe has said that you know we really need to see results within the next three or four races. Well, he has allegedly said these things,
[05:31.280 -> 05:40.720] and you would think that after the PR win that was Pierre Gasly and then Alex Albin being kicked out
[05:40.720 -> 05:46.320] of Red Bull, that perhaps they would give their brand new junior driver
[05:47.040 -> 05:52.720] more than four races to be as good as the driver that's been there for a couple of years,
[05:52.720 -> 05:56.480] but no, apparently not. Although to be fair, I think... Go ahead.
[05:56.480 -> 05:58.160] No, no, please carry on.
[05:58.800 -> 06:03.440] I think DeVries probably would agree that he needs to be doing a better job,
[06:04.000 -> 06:05.760] but I'm not sure that telling
[06:05.760 -> 06:11.260] him his time is limited is really going to be helpful in any larger sense to his performance.
[06:11.260 -> 06:17.400] They are absolutely brutal at Red Bull and you listed, you listed Albon, you listed Gasly
[06:17.400 -> 06:21.060] and the sirens are coming to get you. It looks like Matt, you are, you are very much under
[06:21.060 -> 06:30.560] arrest at this point for pointing out the brutal junior driver program. But we could easily as well say Buemi, we could say Al-Bashwari, we could say Scott
[06:30.560 -> 06:33.680] Speed, Hartley, all of whom have come in.
[06:33.680 -> 06:34.680] Jev.
[06:34.680 -> 06:39.400] Yeah, yeah, John Eric Verne. Yeah, who've all been invited to come in, take their shot
[06:39.400 -> 06:44.280] and then been, you know, pushed by the wayside. But on the counter to that, you look at their
[06:44.280 -> 06:49.960] driver program and who is it yielded? Max Verstappen, Sebastian Vettel. And to be honest Callum,
[06:49.960 -> 06:54.160] as much as people get upset at how people churn, how they churn over young drivers,
[06:54.160 -> 06:59.660] yeah, this is the top level of single-seater racing. I feel like the whole field would
[06:59.660 -> 07:06.240] be stronger if every, you know, driver academy was as brutal as the Red Bull Academy.
[07:06.240 -> 07:09.640] I mean, you can't, yeah, exactly like you said, you can't argue with the results, can
[07:09.640 -> 07:15.320] you? And even Tsunoda had a little bit of a tough start, but you've got to say his performance
[07:15.320 -> 07:20.800] this season has been really very good. And so, De Vries has had a lot to put up against
[07:20.800 -> 07:25.600] that. But if you look at the first four races, it's not looking good,
[07:25.600 -> 07:31.680] is it? With 14th, 14th, DNF, DNF, and then 18th in Miami. It's not good enough, really,
[07:31.680 -> 07:35.520] is it, for that seat? Well, the thing is, those results, like that,
[07:35.520 -> 07:41.200] statistically, they look bad, but it's also hit wall, hit Norris, hit wall. And again,
[07:41.200 -> 07:48.600] even throughout the practice sessions, he's not looked comfortable at any point. And, you know, he's come from Formula E, done very well there. It's not
[07:48.600 -> 07:54.760] the street circuits themselves. It feels almost like it's, it's just pressure and it's moments
[07:54.760 -> 07:59.520] of a lapse of concentration or moments of just being too far on the edge of going, I
[07:59.520 -> 08:03.520] need to break it the last minute. I need that last centimeter. And it's gone wrong.
[08:03.520 -> 08:09.800] Well, it has, but I want to say like, you you bring up Tsunoda, like, I didn't go back
[08:09.800 -> 08:14.800] and look, but my memory is, like, I don't think he did much better than De Vries his
[08:14.800 -> 08:19.380] first four races in Alpha Tauri, and I will say without exception, the car they have this
[08:19.380 -> 08:25.680] season is probably a lot worse than the one that Tsunoda inherited when he first walked into the team.
[08:25.680 -> 08:26.680] Callum.
[08:26.680 -> 08:33.520] I would say that Sunoda, he had a bit of a vibe about him, particularly in the start
[08:33.520 -> 08:39.800] of his first season. He was very racy, like that, you know, was it his first race in Bahrain
[08:39.800 -> 08:45.120] where he had that great battle with Alonso? and there was a bit of a different vibe to it than there
[08:45.120 -> 08:51.960] is with De Vries. And particularly that shunt in Miami where he hit Norris, he's a driver
[08:51.960 -> 08:56.160] that's come from Formula E, super close racing, also sports cars where you're going to be
[08:56.160 -> 09:00.520] in these huge packs of cars at the start of a race, then to be braking at the very last
[09:00.520 -> 09:03.840] minute and rear-ending Norris, it doesn't look good, does it?
[09:03.840 -> 09:04.840] Matt.
[09:04.840 -> 09:08.800] Well, but again, what are we talking about? The beginning of the race. I mean, in Australia,
[09:08.800 -> 09:14.480] at the race restart, did we not see Gasly heaving off the circuit in a huge cloud of smoke and
[09:14.480 -> 09:17.440] causing all sorts of carnage? And he's got way more experience.
[09:17.440 -> 09:17.680] Yeah.
[09:17.680 -> 09:29.020] Full tanks, cold tires, and no practice at that for DeVries and And and half the time on circuits that he hasn't even raced on f2 and even when he's raced there
[09:29.020 -> 09:32.560] How long has it been since he did those races? I mean, he's at a severe
[09:33.160 -> 09:35.160] experiential yeah
[09:35.160 -> 09:41.080] Disadvantage even relative to Sonoda when he came into the team. He's in a car that is notably
[09:41.920 -> 09:46.360] What finicky in terms of its performance.
[09:46.360 -> 09:49.520] And weren't they even having break problems at Miami anyway?
[09:49.520 -> 09:51.680] Throughout, or was that a different team?
[09:51.680 -> 09:54.320] I mean, multiple teams have had break problems, but...
[09:54.320 -> 09:58.880] Christopher Fonseca in our live patron chat says that Red Bull are the Taylor Swift of
[09:58.880 -> 09:59.920] F1 teams.
[09:59.920 -> 10:05.000] And Mark continues that with saying, casually cruel in the name of being honest.
[10:05.000 -> 10:08.640] But the difference I think is, is that Gasly has a reputation behind him already.
[10:08.640 -> 10:11.680] So a little bit of a difficult start to the season.
[10:11.680 -> 10:12.680] Where did he crash?
[10:12.680 -> 10:17.600] I think he had a little bit of a shunt in Saudi and then hit his teammate, obviously.
[10:17.600 -> 10:22.720] Oh no, he hit his teammate in Australia and then had a difficult time at Baku.
[10:22.720 -> 10:26.720] OK, you can forgive that because he's got a kind of CV behind him.
[10:26.720 -> 10:30.240] It feels like the drivers who've come in, come in with an enthusiasm.
[10:30.240 -> 10:32.960] Like Tsunoda, getting very racy in his first race.
[10:32.960 -> 10:38.560] Logan Sargent, actually, in Bahrain, immediately off the line, looked incredible.
[10:38.560 -> 10:41.720] But then there comes a point where you have to maybe rein that in, because since then
[10:41.720 -> 10:45.060] Logan Sargent has looked, you know, a little bit less predictable. So maybe they come in with like, yeah, I Sargent has looked a little bit less predictable.
[10:45.060 -> 10:49.580] So maybe they come in with like, yeah, I've got to make the best of this opportunity,
[10:49.580 -> 10:53.020] hit a couple of cars, hit a couple of walls, and they need to bring it back.
[10:53.020 -> 10:58.500] Well, yeah, and I know we're going to talk to Callum later about the transition from
[10:58.500 -> 11:05.840] sim to real life racing, but in a way, this is what all of these junior drivers are having to go through.
[11:05.840 -> 11:15.120] They have very little to no time to master these finer intricacies that make them competitive.
[11:15.120 -> 11:20.080] And while you might get to the end or two-thirds or three-quarters of a season and be able to look
[11:20.080 -> 11:31.040] at the data from a driver and say, like, yeah, you're just not you are not going to be the one for this team. I think that's fair. After four races, it's just bonkers. And what's even more
[11:31.040 -> 11:37.840] bonkers about it, and what really made me old man yelling at clouds on my lawn, get off, please,
[11:37.840 -> 11:43.840] kind of ranty was everyone going, well, well, Ricardo's getting a seat fitting. He's gonna drive
[11:43.840 -> 11:45.960] for El Vitori in Barcelona.
[11:45.960 -> 11:46.960] Yay.
[11:46.960 -> 11:48.820] And like, what kind of nonsense is that?
[11:48.820 -> 11:54.760] Because they have, I believe, Liam Lawson and Ayuma Iwasu, who are both up in the queue
[11:54.760 -> 11:58.600] for that Alpha Tauri seat before Ricardo would be.
[11:58.600 -> 12:03.160] But the genius of Ricardo is he's a very known factor and a very experienced driver.
[12:03.160 -> 12:10.840] What he's going to be able to do is give Alpha Tauri a decent benchmark for their two younger drivers and possibly some telemetry
[12:10.840 -> 12:13.840] so where they can learn a few things and be more competitive.
[12:13.840 -> 12:18.360] Oh, quick thing. So I don't know whether it's true that Ricciardo had a seat fitting or
[12:18.360 -> 12:21.080] not to me. If you think it's true.
[12:21.080 -> 12:22.080] Oh, no, it is true.
[12:22.080 -> 12:28.880] Oh, it's true. Okay. Well, to to me that makes perfect sense because even though you've got Lawson and and other drivers lined up they have other commitments
[12:28.880 -> 12:33.360] in racing series so the the time that you might want to replace him might be when none of those
[12:33.360 -> 12:38.640] are available and all Daniel Ricciardo at the moment is doing is is doing TikToks and PR so
[12:38.640 -> 12:44.480] there might come a time where you just go we cannot afford another crash. Alpha Tauri, sorry Nick
[12:44.480 -> 12:45.360] you're done.
[12:45.360 -> 12:47.500] Yes, we have a long-term plan with Lawson,
[12:47.500 -> 12:49.820] but Ricciardo, come in and do a job.
[12:49.820 -> 12:51.640] So like Ben Foster at Wrexham,
[12:51.640 -> 12:53.260] you just go, come on then, come on.
[12:53.260 -> 12:54.880] I know this is not the level you want to be at,
[12:54.880 -> 12:56.520] but come here, do a job,
[12:56.520 -> 12:58.120] show us how it's supposed to be done.
[12:58.120 -> 13:02.040] And that also will come with risks with Ricciardo as well,
[13:02.040 -> 13:03.680] because Ricciardo will have to get into the car
[13:03.680 -> 13:07.520] and immediately be better than Tsunoda or his reputation is toast.
[13:07.520 -> 13:13.440] I'm sure we could see the same thing flip-flopping back. Ricciardo right now is not a proven
[13:13.440 -> 13:20.320] entity with this. He's an unbelievable driver but has had a shaky time recently. There's
[13:20.320 -> 13:25.360] nothing to say that him hopping in that car would improve things. And if, let's say,
[13:25.360 -> 13:29.120] he hops in that car, has another four races, we could be looking at a similar situation.
[13:30.720 -> 13:35.040] I would be surprised if he sat there as a third driver without a seat ready to go in both of
[13:35.040 -> 13:41.520] those cars. You would expect if a driver gets ill, like we saw a couple of times in the past
[13:41.520 -> 13:48.440] few seasons, you'd want to slap a seat in there and get going straight away. So the seat isn't, I don't think really says anything.
[13:48.440 -> 13:50.220] I think it's one of those things
[13:50.220 -> 13:52.040] where people want to believe it
[13:52.040 -> 13:54.000] because they like Riccardo, he's a very likeable guy.
[13:54.000 -> 13:56.680] And they also like to see change.
[13:56.680 -> 13:58.040] You know, no matter who the driver is,
[13:58.040 -> 14:00.720] you'd always rather have big drama and a swap
[14:01.600 -> 14:04.040] than things be as they are, you know,
[14:04.040 -> 14:05.280] with De Vries down the back.
[14:05.280 -> 14:09.020] So I think it's one of those things, people want to believe it, and also there's some
[14:09.020 -> 14:14.200] slight clues that it might be happening that mean everyone says it's a dead cert when I'm
[14:14.200 -> 14:15.200] not sure it is.
[14:15.200 -> 14:20.080] This is very much Alonzo and Taylor Swift territory again, isn't it Callum?
[14:20.080 -> 14:21.080] Absolutely.
[14:21.080 -> 14:22.080] That's good.
[14:22.080 -> 14:28.640] Well, look, this is where I think my idea that I successfully got across a couple of
[14:28.640 -> 14:34.920] months ago that nobody paid attention to is the fact that we do need a Division Two in
[14:34.920 -> 14:36.040] Formula One.
[14:36.040 -> 14:41.600] So the thing is, you get a driver, even from F2 into Formula One, they are effectively
[14:41.600 -> 14:42.600] changing sports.
[14:42.600 -> 14:48.760] So yes, a lot of the skills are the same, but it's like moving a driver from... I'm gonna get this wrong,
[14:48.760 -> 14:52.800] but it's like moving a driver from rugby to American football.
[14:52.800 -> 14:56.740] It's all this, you catch the ball, you run with it, you throw it, you get in a big
[14:56.740 -> 14:59.880] scrum and cuddle your buddies. I don't really understand rugby or American
[14:59.880 -> 15:06.200] football, but it's such a different discipline. Why not have this Formula 1.5 where you have
[15:06.200 -> 15:10.400] teams, privateer teams, battling with slightly more of a spec series and then
[15:10.400 -> 15:13.320] you've got drivers in there who are essentially driving the same sport.
[15:13.320 -> 15:17.520] What's weird is that you have the pinnacle of a sport with only 20 places
[15:17.520 -> 15:23.040] and drivers are expected to come in and to be given a bedding-in period. Like
[15:23.040 -> 15:25.440] somehow there's some... I think it was David
[15:25.440 -> 15:30.080] Coulthard who said Formula One isn't a finishing school, but it is treated like that. So you get
[15:30.080 -> 15:36.080] a driver come in with a kind of baked in fan base and they go everyone's... people are willing on
[15:36.080 -> 15:40.240] the new entity like Lawson, you know, with an American fan base or Nick DeFries, people have
[15:40.240 -> 15:49.880] watched him in other motorsport series, and they're hoping that Red Bull will give them a little bit of time to get bedded in when really, at the pinnacle of motorsport,
[15:49.880 -> 15:55.620] they should be coming in cookie cutter, ready to go, Matt. And I don't have any sympathy
[15:55.620 -> 16:01.000] really for drivers that come in and fail and get replaced because the sport should have
[16:01.000 -> 16:05.360] enough depth of talent that yes, Scott Speed gets replaced. Al-Bashawiri
[16:05.360 -> 16:10.920] is at risk if he doesn't. Wow, you know, Kvyat gets his shot, takes out the world champion
[16:10.920 -> 16:16.600] a couple of times. Sochi, was it? Ping-pong. You know, the top level of sport is brutal.
[16:16.600 -> 16:22.240] If it's one of 20 places and you don't make the cut in 5, 6, 7, 8 Grand Prix, which is
[16:22.240 -> 16:27.440] what Marco seems prepared to give De Vries, it's fair enough. You get replaced. That is sport.
[16:28.160 -> 16:33.040] Well, yeah, if you don't do the job, you do get replaced. On the other hand,
[16:33.040 -> 16:37.600] if you invest a lot of money in a brand new driver that you think has potential
[16:37.600 -> 16:42.720] and you drop them after three or four races, well, then I say that's less on the driver
[16:42.720 -> 16:45.540] and a lot more on the organization for making
[16:45.540 -> 16:48.960] bad choices to begin with.
[16:48.960 -> 16:54.760] The issue is, and with all due respect to your scheme...
[16:54.760 -> 16:56.280] Doesn't sound like you're going to be respectful.
[16:56.280 -> 17:02.080] That sounds like something you'd say and then be mean about it.
[17:02.080 -> 17:05.280] After my recent visit, my wife was remarking on how the Brits tend
[17:05.280 -> 17:08.000] to use schemes slightly differently than we do here in America.
[17:08.000 -> 17:09.720] I was taking advantage of that.
[17:09.720 -> 17:10.720] Okay.
[17:10.720 -> 17:11.720] You're learning how to defeat us.
[17:11.720 -> 17:12.720] Okay, go on.
[17:12.720 -> 17:18.320] Um, is that it would cost too much money to have a car that was that close to how a Formula
[17:18.320 -> 17:19.320] 1 car drives.
[17:19.320 -> 17:28.240] If you look at the number of controls and the amount of custom computer software needed to run a car like that,
[17:28.240 -> 17:33.360] you can't really recreate that at the F2 level, which is already kind of too expensive
[17:33.920 -> 17:38.640] for what you'd want it to be anyway. So yeah, I'm not sure how the two things you said,
[17:38.640 -> 17:44.240] Svan, has add up, like in that there's a big jump between F2 and F1. Yes, there is. We've
[17:44.240 -> 17:45.440] seen it over and over again
[17:45.440 -> 17:47.560] where the great drivers seem to manage it straight away.
[17:47.560 -> 17:49.720] But Lewis Hamilton was on the podium in his first race.
[17:49.720 -> 17:50.800] There you go.
[17:50.800 -> 17:51.560] So there's that.
[17:51.560 -> 17:54.200] And then there's, I don't know.
[17:54.200 -> 17:56.960] And then there's the argument of that we should be cutthroat
[17:56.960 -> 17:57.840] after five races.
[17:57.840 -> 17:58.520] Drivers should be out.
[17:58.520 -> 18:00.480] We should be cycling through all of the depth of talent
[18:00.480 -> 18:03.720] that we have and trying them all out and seeing how things go.
[18:03.720 -> 18:09.760] I'm not sure how those two things stack up. If you were to make a Formula 1.5, I wonder what the viewing
[18:09.760 -> 18:15.800] figures would be and if they would pay for cars of that level. And so I think F2 is doing
[18:15.800 -> 18:20.920] quite a good job of being that series that has the next step up. I think IndyCar also
[18:20.920 -> 18:26.000] is, but that's a whole other discussion. So I don't know, I don't know why those two things
[18:26.000 -> 18:30.640] seem to oppose each other in my eyes. Oh by the way, just as a quick sub-note before we move on,
[18:30.640 -> 18:37.760] there's been a lot of talk at the moment with the couple of pretty boring F1 races in Baku and Miami
[18:37.760 -> 18:41.920] and but I don't care as an F1 fan, I know there's going to be boring F1 races, I don't care. A lot
[18:41.920 -> 18:45.280] of people are going, yeah well well, Indy does this,
[18:45.280 -> 18:53.280] IndyCar does that. I'm like, great! Also watch IndyCar! Like, you should watch a sweet buffet
[18:53.280 -> 18:59.600] of motorsport. And if you prefer a spec series like IndyCar or a closer to spec series like
[18:59.600 -> 19:06.080] IndyCar, go and watch that! Go and watch Touring Cars! There's loads of racing that doesn't do things
[19:06.080 -> 19:11.520] the way that Formula 1 does things. And if you prefer that, definitely watch that. There's
[19:11.520 -> 19:16.880] no rules, like it's not bad. If you look at a motorsport and you go, oh, I actually prefer
[19:16.880 -> 19:21.480] watching K-Tour and racing on Channel 4 over Formula 1, then watch that. Enjoy what you
[19:21.480 -> 19:32.000] enjoy. It's not a competition. And quickly, before we get onto the Tire Chat Mat,
[19:32.000 -> 19:37.040] let's see if we can do a few minutes on the expected upgrades.
[19:37.040 -> 19:40.800] So I make no secret of the fact that I am a Lewis Hamilton fan,
[19:40.800 -> 19:46.800] and kind of by default, I have become over the years a Mercedes fan mostly because they
[19:46.800 -> 19:52.560] seem nice. Like who's the who went who went over James Vowles went over to Williams you listen to
[19:52.560 -> 19:58.800] him talking he just seems really nice. Chauvelin just seems like you just know like you would you'd
[19:58.800 -> 20:04.560] leave your kids with Chauvelin he seems nice as well. Total Wolf firm but fair they just seemed
[20:04.560 -> 20:05.960] like a nice family.
[20:05.960 -> 20:07.680] Yes, they get angry.
[20:07.680 -> 20:11.720] Yes, you don't want to lend Toto Wolf your desk.
[20:11.720 -> 20:12.940] That's not going to happen.
[20:12.940 -> 20:17.480] But they've always come across as a nice team, going about things the right way, even under
[20:17.480 -> 20:18.920] the biggest of pressures.
[20:18.920 -> 20:20.920] So I'm a fan of Lewis Hamilton.
[20:20.920 -> 20:23.080] I'm a fan of Mercedes.
[20:23.080 -> 20:26.480] And I'm happy to declare that when I look at the
[20:26.480 -> 20:31.600] upgrades coming up and framing my expectations for what's coming up ahead.
[20:31.600 -> 20:37.400] Callum, we don't know your loyalties, please tell me you're not a Chris Stevens and that
[20:37.400 -> 20:40.240] you're going to sit there and go, oh, I just hope everyone has fun.
[20:40.240 -> 20:48.160] Who are you a fan of in F1? I like the racy drivers. So I am a Max Verstappen apologist
[20:49.680 -> 20:58.960] and I also like Norris, Magnussen, those who give us great racing. And I also like that Max
[20:58.960 -> 21:03.920] Verstappen is in the sim every week and I can also watch those races. Oh my goodness, that is such a
[21:03.920 -> 21:08.000] different Max Verstappen. If you watch the live streams that he has on and he just has it like at
[21:08.000 -> 21:14.280] home with his family in and around and everything and he's just chatting to his mates. That's
[21:14.280 -> 21:18.840] not... I like that Max Verstappen. Like why aren't you just normal and nice like that?
[21:18.840 -> 21:22.920] And I'm suspecting Callum that as someone who is... you could frame me as someone who's
[21:22.920 -> 21:29.120] not a fan of Max Verstappen, fairly. But I think the more it goes on, Matt's laughing, that's an understatement.
[21:29.120 -> 21:29.520] Understatement.
[21:29.520 -> 21:33.680] But the more it goes on, the more I think that it's the people around him that I don't like.
[21:33.680 -> 21:38.880] And then you look at his live streams, you go, that lad, we share a lot of values, he loves
[21:38.880 -> 21:46.000] racing. When he enters a sim event, minimum, he puts in 50 hours practice to do an iRacing tournament.
[21:46.000 -> 21:49.120] And so when people were having a go at him for kicking off at that, I think it was an
[21:49.120 -> 21:53.600] rFactor tournament, was it rFactor Le Mans, where they were having loads of cutouts and stuff and
[21:53.600 -> 21:58.720] drops. Yeah, it's because he put 50 hours work into it. I wish we could see more of that side
[21:58.720 -> 22:03.200] of Max. And he's rocked up and he was the best that weekend. And so it's fair enough that that
[22:03.200 -> 22:07.500] was the issue. He was at Nürburgring this weekend and there was a great move where he stuck two wheels on the grass.
[22:07.500 -> 22:09.000] Oh, I saw that one, yeah.
[22:09.000 -> 22:13.000] I like that he races the same way in the sim as he does in the real world.
[22:13.000 -> 22:18.000] Yeah, and actually in that you could see his spotter, so his teammate, was like head in his hands.
[22:18.000 -> 22:25.000] Like, Max, why are you overtaking, you know, at the Nurburburgring, on the grass.
[22:25.000 -> 22:26.160] And I know that corner as well,
[22:26.160 -> 22:28.160] because it's a real flowing left-hander.
[22:28.160 -> 22:29.560] And if you get that wrong, you're in the wall
[22:29.560 -> 22:31.440] before you even get to the hairpin.
[22:31.440 -> 22:32.360] Yeah, it's a delight, actually.
[22:32.360 -> 22:34.760] I would say to people who don't like Max Verstappen,
[22:34.760 -> 22:37.400] go and tune in to his live streams
[22:37.400 -> 22:38.880] and that kind of streaming content he does.
[22:38.880 -> 22:39.860] But there we go.
[22:39.860 -> 22:40.700] So people are saying,
[22:40.700 -> 22:42.600] oh, we don't get Max Verstappen fans on.
[22:42.600 -> 22:44.280] There we go, Matt, we did it once.
[22:44.280 -> 22:46.080] And I think that's it now. So far, so good. So far, so good. I mean, he hasn't get Max Verstappen fans on. There we go, Matt, we did it once, and I think that's it now.
[22:46.080 -> 22:47.240] So far, so good.
[22:47.240 -> 22:48.040] So far, so good.
[22:48.040 -> 22:50.560] I mean, he hasn't set fire to the shed yet, so we'll see.
[22:50.560 -> 22:51.960] So from an upgrade point of view,
[22:51.960 -> 22:55.840] no offense to you, Callum, and your fan base, but I am.
[22:55.840 -> 23:01.280] I'm hoping for a ridiculously unobtainable Mercedes upgrade
[23:01.280 -> 23:04.000] where they just gain a second a lap on race pace.
[23:04.000 -> 23:05.360] And I'm a bit upset at
[23:05.360 -> 23:10.480] the Mercedes management because they're being super cagey about how good this upgrade is
[23:10.480 -> 23:13.600] going to be. It's almost like they're saying, yeah, in the sim we're going to gain eight
[23:13.600 -> 23:21.360] seconds and win this championship, but you know, who's to tell how it translates onto
[23:21.360 -> 23:25.080] the track? Well, you! You're the ones really good at making race cars.
[23:25.120 -> 23:27.560] So Matt, how high should my hopes be?
[23:28.080 -> 23:33.400] Your hopes should be reasonably high that you will see improved performance, not
[23:33.400 -> 23:38.800] necessarily at the first race, but over the course of the next four or five races,
[23:38.920 -> 23:47.440] Mercedes will be doing better than they would have been without this update. Now, the reason they are being so
[23:47.440 -> 23:53.600] cagey about it is because the thing that has really plagued them more than anything else is
[23:53.600 -> 24:00.960] they have struggled to adequately model, both in CFD, but I think especially in the wind tunnel,
[24:01.520 -> 24:07.760] the issues their car is having. So they can look at it in a simulation and say,
[24:07.760 -> 24:12.400] well, yes, this update is bringing us like this new updated car concept should bring us
[24:12.960 -> 24:18.800] four to six tenths a lap before we optimize it. And that's genius. And then they can say,
[24:18.800 -> 24:23.840] we've put it in the wind tunnel and it gave us that. And they're like, okay, we're ready to go.
[24:23.840 -> 24:25.360] And then they're going to say, well, yeah, that's what we said at the start they're like, okay, we're ready to go and then they're gonna say well, yeah
[24:25.360 -> 24:30.820] That's what we said at the start of last season to with our zero pod concept and look what happened to that
[24:30.820 -> 24:38.680] I think ground effect is particularly challenging for certain wind tunnels due to the size and the way the road itself
[24:38.800 -> 24:44.160] Works, it's very hard to model because you get issues with boundary layers and the size of the walls
[24:44.160 -> 24:49.600] And especially when you're in yaw, it can be difficult to get the numbers, the correct numbers,
[24:49.600 -> 24:55.200] and the only real test is on track. And that's what we're going to see at Imola from whatever it
[24:55.200 -> 24:58.800] is Mercedes is going to bring. And I'm just going to say it one more time, everybody wants to know
[24:58.800 -> 25:04.080] about the side pods, side pods weren't really ever the problem. I want side pods. Callum, did you
[25:04.080 -> 25:10.480] follow any of that? Because when Matt goes off like that, and when I hear three words in a row that I don't
[25:10.480 -> 25:16.560] understand, I kind of go, oh, I can take a break. I was there like, Matt, talk about the road
[25:16.560 -> 25:21.280] surface, talk about the road surface. And you did. So I spoke to, very quickly, I spoke to William
[25:21.280 -> 25:25.600] Towett a while back, he ex-Sabre engineer, Benetton engineer,
[25:33.520 -> 25:39.760] and he raised concerns, again, all of this is from his speculation, but that Mercedes run a smooth belt on their wind tunnel. It behaves a little bit differently to tarmac. Most of the
[25:39.760 -> 25:45.160] other wind tunnels run like a rubberized belt, so that you have air flowing over it,
[25:45.160 -> 25:48.320] similarly to the tarmac you have in the real world.
[25:48.320 -> 25:49.920] Oh, wow.
[25:49.920 -> 25:53.320] But Mercedes said, hey, we've got this way of calculating it.
[25:53.320 -> 25:56.000] And so things are more repeatable with the smooth belt,
[25:56.000 -> 25:58.920] but then we can work it out as if it's road later.
[25:58.920 -> 26:00.160] With math, yes.
[26:00.160 -> 26:00.600] Yes.
[26:00.600 -> 26:07.520] And so Willem said he had a concern about that being part of the issue, then when they're
[26:07.520 -> 26:11.440] trying to figure out their numbers for ground effect. And like you said, especially in yaw
[26:11.440 -> 26:16.240] when you're going through a corner. And so again, that's just a little bit of info that I had on
[26:16.240 -> 26:22.000] that. And I think that might, I mean, it adds up in my head, that could be the case. So let's hope
[26:22.000 -> 26:27.920] they, again, I want to see great racing. I want to see great racing at the front. So let's hope they, again, I want to see great racing, I want to see great racing at the front, so let's hope they drag things forward.
[26:27.920 -> 26:33.480] Yeah, let's hope so, and let's hope that they have figured out what I would affectionately
[26:33.480 -> 26:39.680] call the fudge factor for their wind tunnel, because as they gather more data from the
[26:39.680 -> 26:44.000] track, what they do is they bring it back and look at what the CFD predicted, they look
[26:44.000 -> 26:49.020] at what the wind tunnel told them, and then and look at what the CFD predicted They look at what the wind tunnel told them and then they look where the actual numbers are and they continue to adjust that
[26:49.340 -> 26:52.180] So it may be the case that they are getting better
[26:52.740 -> 26:55.980] I'll use the word resolution here from the numbers
[26:56.020 -> 27:01.300] but the issues are really the margins when I'm doing 340 kilometers when I'm
[27:01.840 -> 27:05.800] Breaking into that turn at that speed, they're just not getting
[27:05.800 -> 27:11.300] enough resolution to know what the car is doing, and as a result, they can be surprised
[27:11.300 -> 27:14.120] on track. And when they are, it's problematic.
[27:14.120 -> 27:20.900] Okay, so are we looking at like a window where if their simulations and their wind tunnel
[27:20.900 -> 27:26.400] stuff is good, we genuinely can be excited. If it doesn't quite correlate, then it might fall short.
[27:26.400 -> 27:30.600] Or am I wrong to even hope that they could bring some competition?
[27:30.600 -> 27:34.800] Because Ferrari aren't bringing competition to this season.
[27:34.800 -> 27:36.400] They're going to go backwards.
[27:36.400 -> 27:38.800] Aston Martin have peaked, in my opinion.
[27:38.800 -> 27:40.600] That's my guess.
[27:40.600 -> 27:42.600] Callum, do you agree? There was a look there.
[27:42.600 -> 27:44.800] I think they just came out of the box really well,
[27:44.800 -> 27:47.080] and they'll do well to hang on throughout
[27:47.080 -> 27:51.760] the season. I think the only team that can potentially, not in the championship, but
[27:51.760 -> 27:55.960] even for the odd race, bring it to Red Bull potentially over the course of the season
[27:55.960 -> 27:58.320] will be Mercedes. Yes.
[27:58.320 -> 28:02.120] What was the look for then? You made me feel silly.
[28:02.120 -> 28:05.200] Okay, okay. You mentioned Mercedes. I always back Mercedes to develop a car
[28:05.200 -> 28:10.000] very well. The thing about Aston, I think they're going to go well at a couple of circuits, so there
[28:10.000 -> 28:14.400] could be some great results. I also think Red Bull, you know, it doesn't look like it at the
[28:14.400 -> 28:19.520] moment, but could have a few issues later on the season and we don't see. Maybe you're making this
[28:19.520 -> 28:25.360] safer bet by saying they'll fall away, but I have hope. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.
[28:25.360 -> 28:28.160] Maybe I'm being too harsh on Aston Martin because they've already exceeded how much
[28:28.160 -> 28:30.360] I thought they would be hanging on.
[28:30.360 -> 28:32.160] But we're not really into upgrade season yet.
[28:32.160 -> 28:33.160] Matt?
[28:33.160 -> 28:34.440] Well, I think you're missing the point here.
[28:34.440 -> 28:39.000] It's not that Aston won't continue to develop, but it's the fact that they're fighting with
[28:39.000 -> 28:47.200] one and a half drivers against a team that's almost as good with two drivers. So what I would, and please pardon me
[28:47.200 -> 28:54.680] for bringing this up, but really the best analogy, the best comparison comes, I think, from the
[28:54.680 -> 29:01.160] McLaren-Alpine battle last season, where you had Norris and the McLaren regularly outscoring both
[29:01.160 -> 29:05.600] Alpines. But the pair of Alpine drivers doing, being close
[29:05.600 -> 29:10.500] enough to Norris, the fact that Ricciardo was scoring nothing was a bigger problem for
[29:10.500 -> 29:18.960] McLaren and ultimately Alpine won that points battle. I think if Ferrari continue to Ferrari,
[29:18.960 -> 29:23.480] then absolutely what we might see by the end of the season is Mercedes as a team passing
[29:23.480 -> 29:28.640] Aston. But that's going to have a lot more to do with the fact that Alonso is
[29:29.140 -> 29:32.180] outperforming his teammate by a bigger margin,
[29:32.180 -> 29:35.980] whereas with Russell and Hamilton, as we had with with,
[29:36.800 -> 29:40.200] you know, Alonso and Ocon and where we had, I think, a little less
[29:40.200 -> 29:43.600] with Hamilton and Botes, you have a very evenly matched pair of teammates
[29:43.600 -> 29:51.600] that will extract the maximum points most weakens from their platform. Okay, I've delayed for as long as I can.
[29:51.600 -> 29:55.520] It's time to rip the bandage off and talk tires.
[30:00.480 -> 30:06.520] I want to make something clear. I don't hate tire talk, right? But I think it has its place.
[30:06.520 -> 30:14.640] And as an olden days Formula 1 fan, as an old F1 uncle sat around the tree saying, come
[30:14.640 -> 30:20.720] here, let me tell you about the olden days, kids. They used to say, make tyres as good
[30:20.720 -> 30:26.480] as you possibly can, and then if a team chooses you as their their tyre
[30:26.480 -> 30:30.680] manufacturer, you know, good luck but you're gonna be up against another tyre
[30:30.680 -> 30:35.740] manufacturer that's trying to make their tyres as good as possible as well. So
[30:35.740 -> 30:40.840] they tried to make tyres that were super grippy and super durable and Pirelli
[30:40.840 -> 30:48.080] could do this if they wanted to. So, this may seem obvious, but if you don't know, you know, that's fine, you don't know.
[30:48.080 -> 30:53.000] Everyone tell Pirelli, make a tyre that has a certain amount of wear.
[30:53.000 -> 30:59.600] And Pirelli go, hmm, won't this make us look terrible to people that might want to buy a Pirelli road tyre?
[30:59.600 -> 31:01.840] No, no, no, everything will be fine.
[31:01.840 -> 31:05.240] And then Silverstone 2013 comes along and all the tyres explode. And then when you're at the garage and you say, hmm, new, no, everything will be fine. And then Silverstone 2013 comes along and all the tyres
[31:05.240 -> 31:09.840] explode. And then when you're at the garage and you say, hmm, new tyres please, and they
[31:09.840 -> 31:15.000] go, oh yes, you can have Goodyear or Pirelli. Pirelli? The ones where the tyres exploded?
[31:15.000 -> 31:20.520] No, maybe not. I think that was a real effect. So there's a battle between Pirelli being
[31:20.520 -> 31:29.200] asked to manufacture tyres that manufacture a strategy difference amongst the teams whilst
[31:29.200 -> 31:36.160] also being a spec part. So all the teams have to have a Pirelli tyre. And there's not many
[31:36.160 -> 31:41.360] parts in Formula 1 now that have that. In other motorsport series there will be a big spec window
[31:41.360 -> 31:49.440] where you have to have that suspension. You can change it however you want, you can do what settings you want, but you have to have that suspension, you have to have
[31:49.440 -> 31:56.880] those brakes. So Formula 1 traditionally has not been a spec series. Now the reasons the cars look
[31:56.880 -> 32:01.600] quite similar is because they bring down the parameters in which people can play. So your front
[32:01.600 -> 32:05.120] wing must be in a certain box, your rear wing must be in
[32:05.120 -> 32:11.360] a certain box, you have to adhere to ever tighter rules. So it might look like the cars
[32:11.360 -> 32:17.080] are being asked to be manufactured in a specific way using specific parts, but actually the
[32:17.080 -> 32:26.480] fact is in Formula One now, they're just competing on ever tighter margins. But the tyres are something that are a specific spec part. They all have
[32:26.480 -> 32:32.960] to have Pirelli tyres. So that is a tool at their disposal. They can choose one of the
[32:32.960 -> 32:38.440] three compounds available to qualify on, to start on, and then to do the race on. And
[32:38.440 -> 32:46.960] the only reason that I hold Matt back on a race review is because I don't want that tyre chat to dominate the racing action,
[32:46.960 -> 32:53.440] the strategy action, but in reality Matt, they do because the tyres now in Formula 1
[32:53.440 -> 32:55.840] completely dictate what kind of race we're going to have.
[32:57.600 -> 33:06.240] And I hate to break it to you, they always, always have. The tyre is the only part of the car that touches the track. If you use the
[33:06.240 -> 33:12.480] tires correctly, you can gain seconds per lap. Anything else you bring as an improvement, like
[33:12.480 -> 33:19.440] if you brought an arrow, like if you designed a new widget to attach your wing mirror to the car
[33:20.000 -> 33:24.160] and it gained the team a tenth of a second, you'd be a hero in the arrow department.
[33:24.720 -> 33:28.480] On the other hand, if you get your camera settings right and your pressures right,
[33:28.480 -> 33:31.600] your car could go two and a half seconds a lap faster in a race.
[33:31.600 -> 33:34.800] Now, as you point... Yeah, sorry, go on.
[33:34.800 -> 33:39.120] So I want to actually address... There are many points I want to address. First of all,
[33:39.120 -> 33:44.880] 2013, the teams were running the tires out of Pirelli specifications. They both had a side
[33:44.880 -> 33:45.200] and a direction. The teams were swapping them because of Pirelli's specifications. They both had a side and a
[33:45.200 -> 33:49.840] direction. The teams were swapping them because they were getting better grip, but naturally,
[33:49.840 -> 33:55.920] that caused tires to fail, and Pirelli kind of bore the brunt of that blame, but it was really
[33:55.920 -> 34:00.560] not their fault. The teams could do what they wanted with the tires, despite what Pirelli said
[34:00.560 -> 34:09.360] should be done. That is a regulatory issue that has been pretty much changed. But I'm going to read you a quote from Gunther Steiner about tires and Pirelli.
[34:09.360 -> 34:10.360] Is it safe to read?
[34:10.360 -> 34:15.480] I think we need... yeah, it is, it is. There are zero words in it that you will have to
[34:15.480 -> 34:19.880] believe. I think we need to look into the tires. We always complain when we have drop-off.
[34:19.880 -> 34:23.880] We always complain when we don't have it. We need to make our mind up what we want,
[34:23.880 -> 34:30.400] because I think Pirelli delivered both ways. And we say now it's too much so it will always be difficult. The real
[34:30.400 -> 34:38.480] issue here is everyone is asking Pirelli to fix all of the issues with the Formula One regulations
[34:38.480 -> 34:42.640] by making different tires. So if there's not a lot of overtaking it's Pirelli's fault the tires
[34:42.640 -> 34:48.720] are too good. If there's too much overtaking and they have to pit all the time, then it's Pirelli's fault because the tires
[34:48.720 -> 34:54.640] are too chocolatey, and so on and so forth and so on. What Formula One needs to do is sit down
[34:54.640 -> 35:02.080] and figure out what it wants. What is the delta for one car to overtake another and then use DRS
[35:02.080 -> 35:09.000] and then look at the tires and tire strategy in order to make races more strategically interesting to the viewers.
[35:09.000 -> 35:15.000] And we have to say that these tires are incredible, like Pirelli do an incredible job.
[35:15.000 -> 35:23.000] And as you pointed out to me, Matt, our panelist here, Callum, as part of Driver 61, put Formula 1 tires on a road car.
[35:23.000 -> 35:25.920] And I want to know why and I want to know how that went
[35:26.560 -> 35:29.920] So we have a YouTube channel called Overdrive. We do fun stuff with cars
[35:30.440 -> 35:33.280] And we thought wouldn't it be a mental thumbnail as you know
[35:33.280 -> 35:34.240] You've got to start with that
[35:34.240 -> 35:39.020] Wouldn't it be a just a mental thing to do to take a normal car and put F1 tyres on it?
[35:39.020 -> 35:42.160] Yeah, so we found some F1 wheels and tyres and Scott knows a guy
[35:42.600 -> 35:46.480] And we machined up some some hubs that go onto a normal car
[35:46.480 -> 35:51.600] and a normal four stud pattern, bolted these things on, tried it on a track. Obviously,
[35:51.600 -> 35:57.120] the first car we put it on was a Caterham, so only 135 horsepower and 500 kilos. So obviously,
[35:57.120 -> 36:00.560] there's nowhere near enough energy going through them to get them warm.
[36:00.560 -> 36:01.920] And that's key, the energy.
[36:01.920 -> 36:05.240] Yeah. We then put the tyre warmers on and
[36:05.240 -> 36:09.040] got them as hot as we could. And then they worked for a bit and then cooled down. And
[36:09.040 -> 36:13.880] then we thought, wouldn't it be funny to put it on a car, so we got an MR2, cut some arches
[36:13.880 -> 36:21.240] off it and put it on there. And that was even worse. Lots of fun slides and things. And
[36:21.240 -> 36:25.440] also Scott spun it and wound on loads of lock as you know any driver
[36:25.440 -> 36:29.080] would and the tyre got wedged in the arch so we had to let the tyre down and get it
[36:29.080 -> 36:34.080] out. But anyway those videos are on YouTube Overdrive and it was a lot of fun but all
[36:34.080 -> 36:37.560] of the things you would expect as an F1 fan happened.
[36:37.560 -> 36:41.120] But yes. Yeah and I mean that just highlights and I'm
[36:41.120 -> 36:48.800] going to assume given your content that you're also a tyre expert Callum, but that just highlights like Pirelli are making a very, you know, specialist tyre that has to
[36:48.800 -> 36:55.280] withstand incredible pressures and the big headline this week is that they are strengthening,
[36:55.280 -> 37:00.640] they said, or strengthening the tyres for the upcoming races, I think from Silverstone,
[37:00.640 -> 37:06.540] because of the unexpected increase in downforce that the teams have managed to get,
[37:06.540 -> 37:09.260] but an increase in strength doesn't mean
[37:09.260 -> 37:10.620] an increase in wear?
[37:12.300 -> 37:14.380] Yes, it looks like they're playing
[37:14.380 -> 37:15.780] with the construction of the tire,
[37:15.780 -> 37:19.100] which to me, I spoke to someone from a brand
[37:19.100 -> 37:19.940] who doesn't want to be named,
[37:19.940 -> 37:22.820] but about the Azerbaijan Grand Prix,
[37:22.820 -> 37:24.980] and that was looking at the shoulder of the tire,
[37:24.980 -> 37:25.000] where the sidewall meets the tread, and that was looking at the shoulder of the tire,
[37:25.000 -> 37:27.640] where the sidewall meets the tread.
[37:27.640 -> 37:30.740] And that was like a structural thing, that let go.
[37:30.740 -> 37:32.880] Now, they were running it too low on pressures
[37:32.880 -> 37:33.720] and all that sort of stuff.
[37:33.720 -> 37:36.120] It was similar to what Matt said,
[37:36.120 -> 37:38.480] when people are running tires, how they shouldn't be run.
[37:38.480 -> 37:40.760] But that is what failed, that's a structure thing.
[37:40.760 -> 37:43.240] But then back in Silverstone, when Lewis's one went,
[37:43.240 -> 37:44.920] was that 2020?
[37:44.920 -> 37:46.880] It was 2013, it's gone a long way back.
[37:46.880 -> 37:47.680] No, no.
[37:47.680 -> 37:48.480] Oh yeah, there's that.
[37:48.480 -> 37:49.040] But then there's also when-
[37:49.040 -> 37:50.320] He finished on three wheels.
[37:50.320 -> 37:51.920] Oh yes, of course.
[37:51.920 -> 37:52.480] That was the greatest finish ever.
[37:52.480 -> 37:57.840] They put that down to too much wear, the tread got too low, and then they got a puncture.
[37:57.840 -> 38:02.640] So you've got to play with two things there. So either you can have loads of shreds to
[38:02.640 -> 38:08.760] protect against punctures, but then you get loads of deg and tyres fall off because you've got too much rubber getting too hot.
[38:08.760 -> 38:11.920] Or you can play with the structure of the tyre and they let go that way.
[38:11.920 -> 38:16.600] Or you can run it, you know, you can run it, yeah, you can protect against punctures or
[38:16.600 -> 38:20.180] against deg and then you've also got the added thing of the structure of the tyre letting
[38:20.180 -> 38:21.520] go at the edge of the sidewall.
[38:21.520 -> 38:27.520] So Pirelli have an incredibly complex thing to do and it looks like they're playing with that for Silverstone.
[38:29.320 -> 38:34.320] So one of the things that I read that was interesting to me,
[38:34.320 -> 38:35.880] because first I read exactly what you did,
[38:35.880 -> 38:37.800] that they were changing the construction,
[38:37.800 -> 38:41.000] but they expected the performance of the tire to not vary.
[38:41.000 -> 38:43.040] And I'm like, well, that's not possible
[38:43.040 -> 38:49.680] because the issue here is clearly too much energy. We know that, or at least I believe it, Pirelli designed these tires at
[38:49.680 -> 38:53.680] the behest of the team to fail at that junction between the tread and the sidewall. So we don't
[38:53.680 -> 39:00.240] get these belts just absolutely slaying the floor when you get a puncture. If you've seen with
[39:00.240 -> 39:08.620] punctures, like you sort of have that ring stays attached to the wheel rather than the belts that used to just absolutely chew carbon fiber out of the floor.
[39:08.620 -> 39:11.700] And especially with ground effect, that would be important.
[39:11.700 -> 39:18.780] But even if that's not the case, what I've seen now in print is that they are actually
[39:18.780 -> 39:23.220] bringing 2024 quote unquote materials.
[39:23.220 -> 39:25.640] And essentially what they're saying is the teams are
[39:25.640 -> 39:30.520] already beginning to reach the downforce levels they expected to see in 2024
[39:30.520 -> 39:35.560] therefore they're bringing materials to these tires the teams are going to test
[39:35.560 -> 39:40.160] them I think Barcelona maybe after Barcelona and they expect to implement
[39:40.160 -> 39:45.680] them for Silverstone which is always one of the most dangerous from a tire
[39:45.680 -> 39:50.000] energy point of view races of the year because of your maggots beckett's
[39:50.000 -> 39:54.400] complex and and it's just in terms of the amount of energy that gets put into
[39:54.400 -> 39:59.200] the tire and especially I think too you have an issue with ground effect and
[39:59.200 -> 40:05.520] tires because you have to run really high spring rates and the higher spring rates
[40:05.520 -> 40:10.320] will put more energy into the tire, more thermal energy into the tire, so it
[40:10.320 -> 40:15.360] becomes a bigger task for the teams to control that, especially if the rear
[40:15.360 -> 40:19.800] under traction because that's you tend to overheat the rears because you have
[40:19.800 -> 40:23.920] energy coming not only from the tire rolling along the pavement and when it's
[40:23.920 -> 40:25.440] in turns but also because that's where the tire rolling along the pavement and when it's in turns,
[40:25.440 -> 40:28.360] but also because that's where the tire is being driven.
[40:28.360 -> 40:33.920] Whereas with the fronts, especially on long straights, the issue can be that the carcass
[40:33.920 -> 40:40.440] will cool down because a 300-kilometer-an-hour breeze does tend to remove a fair amount of
[40:40.440 -> 40:43.360] energy from the tire.
[40:43.360 -> 40:47.040] And then there'll be a bit cold going in, you'll overheat the
[40:47.040 -> 40:51.980] surface and you'll get graining, which actually is what something that caused Perez a great
[40:51.980 -> 40:54.640] deal of problems at the start of the Miami Grand Prix.
[40:54.640 -> 40:59.200] Calum, how much do you do you keep up with this? I'm keeping up with it handsomely.
[40:59.200 -> 41:03.880] I got you. I mean, it makes sense. If you're going to play with the construction, the sidewall
[41:03.880 -> 41:05.040] is going to be harder. And then you're going to, you know, if you've got got you. I mean, it makes sense. If you're going to play with the construction, the sidewall is going to be harder.
[41:05.040 -> 41:06.520] And then you're going to, you know,
[41:06.520 -> 41:07.880] if you've got a stiffer sidewall,
[41:07.880 -> 41:09.160] you're not being as kind,
[41:09.160 -> 41:10.040] if you want to think of it that way,
[41:10.040 -> 41:11.960] to the tread that's on the track.
[41:11.960 -> 41:14.300] You might have things not being,
[41:14.300 -> 41:16.880] well, you might not have the load spread as evenly
[41:16.880 -> 41:18.520] as you would with a softer sidewall.
[41:18.520 -> 41:21.640] So you are going to put more heat through the tires.
[41:21.640 -> 41:23.120] And so then you've got to start playing
[41:23.120 -> 41:24.840] with the compound and things like that.
[41:24.840 -> 41:29.240] So yes, that is the tires. And so then you've got to start playing with the compound and things like that. So yes, that is the case.
[41:29.240 -> 41:32.160] It's a really complicated thing for Pirelli,
[41:32.160 -> 41:33.400] particularly for Silverstone.
[41:33.400 -> 41:35.760] And Silverstone seems to be quite unique.
[41:35.760 -> 41:37.360] Maybe there's Zandvoort as well.
[41:37.360 -> 41:39.360] It's like high-speed corners like that.
[41:39.360 -> 41:40.960] And that's where, if you're going
[41:40.960 -> 41:43.120] to see any problems crop up with these tires,
[41:43.120 -> 41:44.720] you're going to see it happen there.
[41:44.720 -> 41:47.360] But then that drags me back to Baku or Miami,
[41:47.360 -> 41:50.840] where I feel they're being a bit, I don't know,
[41:50.840 -> 41:54.520] they're going one or two steps harder on the compound
[41:54.520 -> 41:56.960] than maybe they should.
[41:56.960 -> 41:59.440] And so I would like them to be running them a fair bit softer.
[41:59.440 -> 42:01.120] But then everyone goes, well, the tire's going to blow up.
[42:01.120 -> 42:03.080] And I go, well, that's probably more structure
[42:03.080 -> 42:04.960] than it is the tire itself.
[42:04.960 -> 42:10.620] So I get that. At Silverstone, we do need to have tires that stay together, but for the rest of the races
[42:10.620 -> 42:14.380] I think we can we can be a bit more aggressive with them. So Cal and Matt,
[42:14.580 -> 42:19.660] can't we, why can't we have like a stiffer sidewall? And actually and that's what they did in
[42:19.860 -> 42:26.880] 2013 when the tires were exploding. They did a stiffer sidewall, which I guess made the tire compress less.
[42:26.880 -> 42:27.720] And that's what-
[42:27.720 -> 42:28.680] They changed the construction, yeah.
[42:28.680 -> 42:31.520] Yeah, and that's what Red Bull were really struggling
[42:31.520 -> 42:32.800] because the tire was compressing
[42:32.800 -> 42:35.440] and it was ruining their aerodynamic profile
[42:35.440 -> 42:36.520] into the corners.
[42:36.520 -> 42:38.280] And then when they stiffened the sidewall,
[42:38.280 -> 42:40.680] suddenly all the aerodynamics worked.
[42:40.680 -> 42:43.120] It's not Red Bull, it was Vettel.
[42:43.120 -> 42:43.960] Oh, right.
[42:43.960 -> 42:45.760] And that's because they were getting more wobble.
[42:45.760 -> 42:47.520] Because remember, we were the 13-inch tire.
[42:47.520 -> 42:51.680] So you had a bigger sidewall, and the sidewall was wobbling.
[42:51.680 -> 42:58.720] And the, I'm going to say it, please nobody giggle, tire squirt from that was kind of
[42:58.720 -> 43:03.280] ruining the diffuser, and it was ruining the rear end of the car for Vettel.
[43:03.280 -> 43:05.840] Weber didn't really have a problem with it.
[43:05.840 -> 43:09.280] And if you remember, he was actually kind of thrashing Vettel
[43:09.280 -> 43:10.800] up until they switched tires.
[43:10.800 -> 43:15.800] And when Red Bull drew what I will politely describe
[43:16.640 -> 43:19.520] as extremely effective advocacy.
[43:19.520 -> 43:21.640] They threw a wobbly, they got right Mardi,
[43:21.640 -> 43:23.080] they had the hump.
[43:23.080 -> 43:25.880] Convinced them to switch those tires,
[43:25.880 -> 43:28.480] that season effectively came to an end
[43:28.480 -> 43:29.840] and that'll won everything.
[43:29.840 -> 43:34.120] I lost so much money specifically on that one decision
[43:34.120 -> 43:35.880] to change that tire profile.
[43:35.880 -> 43:39.160] And this is the thing with tires
[43:39.160 -> 43:40.400] and with the way they get used.
[43:40.400 -> 43:42.080] And I actually, I wanna tell you Callum,
[43:42.080 -> 43:43.680] I have some good news for you.
[43:43.680 -> 43:45.840] Cause I saw in my
[43:45.840 -> 43:51.600] my research for talking about this, that one of the things under consideration or that they're
[43:51.600 -> 43:57.760] looking at for 2024 or beyond was a pressure release valve. Now, one thing that you might
[43:57.760 -> 44:06.360] notice if you pay a lot of attention at a race weekend is that early we will say here are the pressures for our tires on Friday and
[44:06.360 -> 44:13.800] then Saturday you will see a notice very frequently that those pressures will now
[44:13.800 -> 44:18.840] be higher which first of all will drive all your tire engineers nuts because
[44:18.840 -> 44:23.960] they have to account for that without much chance to to get actual data from
[44:23.960 -> 44:25.640] the track but also comes about
[44:25.640 -> 44:31.040] because Pirelli has looked at the tire data overnight and said wow that's an
[44:31.040 -> 44:35.200] awful lot of energy and we don't want our tires to go pop and the easiest way
[44:35.200 -> 44:39.160] to solve that problem is to make the sidewall stiffer by raising the
[44:39.160 -> 44:43.160] pressures. So what I think they might be looking at here is being able to have a
[44:43.160 -> 44:45.040] higher starting pressure,
[44:52.800 -> 44:53.440] but then instead of letting it naturally get more and more, get it naturally, let it increase
[44:58.880 -> 45:03.440] as the temperature increases, because pressure and temperature are related from a physics point of view, and the volume of the tire doesn't change, they'll be able to keep the pressure
[45:05.920 -> 45:14.080] of the tire doesn't change, they'll be able to keep the pressure constant, which means we'll get better handling from the tire further into the race. I think I'm getting funny looks from spanners
[45:14.080 -> 45:18.320] here. I think that makes sense, right? When pressures are too low, you have tires going
[45:18.320 -> 45:24.120] bang and things get a bit unpredictable. So you bring the minimum pressure up, but you also don't
[45:24.120 -> 45:25.520] want to punish teams by meaning
[45:25.520 -> 45:30.720] that when they're then hot, pressures get too high, you get no grip, rubber goes flinging everywhere,
[45:30.720 -> 45:35.600] bad things happen. So what you do is you raise the bottom pressure and you bring down the top
[45:35.600 -> 45:40.320] pressure by adding a release valve so air goes away, so that it's a bit more even. I like that
[45:40.320 -> 45:45.840] idea. Well, thank you for having a command of the English language that I clearly lack at this
[45:45.840 -> 45:46.840] moment.
[45:46.840 -> 45:51.000] I'm just going to let you two go for it.
[45:51.000 -> 45:52.000] Yeah.
[45:52.000 -> 45:59.760] And, and, and so the story then becomes one of how the teams use these tires and how Formula
[45:59.760 -> 46:02.040] One uses these tires to be interesting.
[46:02.040 -> 46:09.400] Now you were complaining about the hardness of the compound, but like at Baku, I think they brought the softest possible tires. And I just would
[46:09.400 -> 46:15.800] encourage anyone who wants to complain about tires, if a track has been resurfaced, just
[46:15.800 -> 46:22.520] give it a year or two before you start complaining about tires. Let's see these tires on Barcelona,
[46:22.520 -> 46:27.040] for example, before we conclude that Pirelli have made them too hard?
[46:28.080 -> 46:33.600] My argument would be that there has been a trend that happens fairly consistently.
[46:33.600 -> 46:37.440] Well, it started to happen over the end of last year and the start of this year,
[46:37.440 -> 46:43.520] where we often have tires that are going too long. We've got one stops that are absolutely given,
[46:43.520 -> 46:45.520] and we've got hard in Miami, we've got hard
[46:45.520 -> 46:50.720] tires that are doing 40 laps absolutely flat out and they're quicker than anything else anyone else
[46:50.720 -> 46:55.600] is putting on their car. And so I think that is a problem. Pirelli have said they're aiming at two
[46:55.600 -> 47:01.040] stops and so if you can't have those two things, Pirelli are aiming at two stops and we've got one
[47:01.040 -> 47:09.200] stops so it means that it is Pirelli's fault. If they're aiming at that then that's the issue. So I think they do need to come softer and there are things that they
[47:09.200 -> 47:14.800] can do to stop tyres exploding so you can raise the pressures and you can sort out the sidewalls
[47:14.800 -> 47:19.520] and do all the structural stuff you need to but then bring us tyres that only, you know,
[47:19.520 -> 47:25.280] where the soft last like nine laps and the hard, you know, hard last like 30 laps like the good
[47:25.280 -> 47:27.080] old days. That's what I'd say.
[47:27.080 -> 47:33.440] Well, you know, I wouldn't argue with you, but I would still make Miami, which is entirely
[47:33.440 -> 47:37.560] resurfaced. Everybody remember the first year we went to Sochi, for example.
[47:37.560 -> 47:40.040] Yeah, Istanbul when they resurfaced as well.
[47:40.040 -> 47:46.800] Yeah, yeah. I think you just have to give Pirelli a pass with the resurface track if it continues to be like this
[47:46.800 -> 47:51.600] I 100% agree if Pirelli have got it wrong, but given the fact they're having to bring in stronger tires
[47:52.480 -> 47:59.200] Yeah, probably not. Okay. So before we we you know, we I sat down to talk to you guys about tires
[47:59.200 -> 48:04.160] I know I know very little about this. So I set out some spanners learning
[48:05.200 -> 48:10.400] I know very little about this, so I set out some spanners learning objectives. I'm going to read them to you and let's see if we can get to the heart of what we want from tyres.
[48:10.400 -> 48:15.100] So, what are Pirelli being told to do and what are they trying to do?
[48:15.100 -> 48:21.900] So, I think they're being told to create exciting racing drama and that is conflicted with the fact that
[48:21.900 -> 48:25.220] within their company, they're also trying
[48:25.220 -> 48:30.840] to get safely from A to B without being an embarrassment, saving their reputation.
[48:30.840 -> 48:32.480] They can't have tires just exploding.
[48:32.480 -> 48:33.480] These tires are useless.
[48:33.480 -> 48:36.880] Drivers on the radio going, these tires are rubbish.
[48:36.880 -> 48:41.000] And again, it comes to, you know, Richie at the garage saying, do you want Michelin's,
[48:41.000 -> 48:42.980] Goodyears or Pirelli's?
[48:42.980 -> 48:45.120] Not the ones that Lewis Hamilton said were rubbish
[48:45.120 -> 48:50.560] and then set the fastest lap of the race. Also, I want to know if this is sustainable.
[48:50.560 -> 48:56.880] Is this permanent? Is there any chance that we go back to a tyre war? And then the next thing
[48:56.880 -> 49:02.320] that I want to know is, are the sticking plasters that we're all suggesting just that? Are they
[49:02.320 -> 49:05.520] sticking plasters? So we have two suggestions
[49:05.520 -> 49:10.640] in the mappersphere. One is Chris Stephen's suggestion that says, okay, there's the three
[49:10.640 -> 49:17.360] compounds, but you just make that two compounds. So you always, whatever you're picking, you just
[49:17.360 -> 49:22.400] take away the hardest one. So there's not the option to just go forever. And then Karun Chanduk
[49:22.400 -> 49:26.880] from Sky TV has been pushing very hard for a rule that says,
[49:26.880 -> 49:34.160] you out of the three compounds, you must use all of them. And that will create a strategic
[49:34.160 -> 49:41.840] oasis of joy. So let's start with this. What are Pirelli trying to do Callum? And what,
[49:41.840 -> 49:45.760] you're the head of the FIA now, I'm promoting you, well done,
[49:45.760 -> 49:50.400] congratulations. I don't want the job. No, no, you have to have it. Okay, what are you,
[49:50.400 -> 49:55.280] what do you, what do you tell Pirelli to do? I tell them exactly what they're being told
[49:55.280 -> 49:59.440] currently, we want two stops, two stops are good. So they are being told that you think?
[49:59.440 -> 50:04.200] Yeah, well I think they are, yeah, they had a goal I read, I forget where, but they're
[50:04.200 -> 50:05.200] aiming at two stops and they're currently missing. One had a goal I read, I forget where, but they're aiming at two stops and
[50:05.200 -> 50:10.960] they're currently missing. One stops are boring-ish, two stops are good, three stops start to get
[50:10.960 -> 50:15.520] complicated. So I think the sweet spot is between, you know, you're choosing between a two and a three
[50:15.520 -> 50:20.080] stop. So Pirelli are doing that, but then also, like you say, you've got to manage that you don't
[50:20.080 -> 50:24.880] have the company have a reputation for tyres blowing up, but I think they can get there.
[50:24.880 -> 50:29.520] The tyres are there. You could choose the ones that they're currently making but they're not doing it
[50:29.520 -> 50:33.920] they're going if if we went for a Chris Stevens thing right they would rock up with the medium
[50:33.920 -> 50:38.320] and the hard they go right let's protect ourselves. C4, C5, every time. They have two tires you can choose two
[50:38.320 -> 50:47.280] different colors of tires both will go the entire race. Yeah so uh I'd say yeah, so I mean Matt, I think this is it. Like Pirelli
[50:47.280 -> 50:51.760] will protect themselves, so unless we tell them to do something specific, they're not going to do it.
[50:51.760 -> 50:57.520] Yeah, well let's be very clear. The last brief we have had for Pirelli that I'm aware of is that
[50:57.520 -> 51:05.960] they want grippy tires that drivers can push on, meaning that they are less susceptible to thermal degradation.
[51:05.960 -> 51:09.400] You can overheat them and the performance will come back.
[51:09.400 -> 51:13.820] And that's pretty much what they've given us from a strategy sweet point.
[51:13.820 -> 51:19.280] What I like and I think what everybody really likes the most is you would like your one
[51:19.280 -> 51:25.460] stop strategy and your two stop strategy to be within a second of each other. So it's going to
[51:25.460 -> 51:29.440] be down to driver skill to make the difference. And if I built a car that is
[51:29.440 -> 51:33.400] kind on its tires, I can run a one-stop and have a chance of winning or
[51:33.400 -> 51:38.440] finishing in the points or whatever my team's position in the order is. And if
[51:38.440 -> 51:43.200] I built a team, I've built a car that can just extract the maximum from the tires,
[51:43.200 -> 51:50.720] I can run a two-stop strategy and we'll finish virtually identical. That's the winner, winner, winner, winner.
[51:50.720 -> 51:55.840] I wonder if we did a study from what Callum said. I wonder if, and apologies by the way to people
[51:55.840 -> 52:01.280] who always think I'm cutting Matt off. I never mean to be. This is the vagaries of Zoom that we
[52:01.280 -> 52:04.640] just try and avoid talking over each other. And Matt's very polite. If there's a clash,
[52:04.640 -> 52:05.840] he tends to back off.
[52:05.840 -> 52:07.520] So apologies to you there, Matt.
[52:07.520 -> 52:09.880] But I think Callum's point that, you know,
[52:09.880 -> 52:11.240] there's a lot of one-stoppers.
[52:11.240 -> 52:14.660] I wish we could do a study into the races
[52:14.660 -> 52:17.360] that people complain about being boring
[52:17.360 -> 52:19.720] versus the races that are one-stop.
[52:19.720 -> 52:22.320] Because I think Callum might've put his finger on that,
[52:22.320 -> 52:24.440] which is that actually, I think, yeah,
[52:24.440 -> 52:29.200] one-stop in this era really does generate the complaints.
[52:29.200 -> 52:35.680] Three stop would get a bit much, but there was a golden era in 2014 for tyre strategy
[52:35.680 -> 52:39.900] where pretty much every team had the prime and option.
[52:39.900 -> 52:47.600] So there was two tyre compounds to pick from, and they would generally have two stops, maybe three
[52:47.600 -> 52:53.160] if they wanted to be aggressive, and very rarely would be able to cling on for the one
[52:53.160 -> 52:54.160] stop.
[52:54.160 -> 52:59.080] And the one stop was always like a, wow, if you can do that, you are a tire magician.
[52:59.080 -> 53:01.840] Okay, so let's talk.
[53:01.840 -> 53:09.040] The reason we have seen the progression to the one stop is one, the teams know that the
[53:09.040 -> 53:12.920] less times they come into the pits, the less things can go wrong.
[53:12.920 -> 53:16.620] That's easy and obvious and just risk avoidance 101.
[53:16.620 -> 53:21.460] And the second thing that has happened that doesn't often get talked about, but I actually
[53:21.460 -> 53:25.260] did a great deal of research on a number of years ago is the
[53:25.260 -> 53:31.220] fact that over the years due to the decreasing speed limit in the pit lanes
[53:31.220 -> 53:36.740] is the pit Delta itself has increased. So if you go back far enough and start
[53:36.740 -> 53:48.400] looking at when people pitted it was 12 or 15 seconds and the tires were robust enough that I could make that stop and in 10 laps,
[53:49.040 -> 53:56.480] you know, or 20 laps at 0.75 second a lap, I could catch you and pass you. So there,
[53:56.480 -> 54:07.840] so that we had this, we had less of a penalty for stopping. And now with the pit deltas getting bigger and bigger, what happens is Pirelli has had
[54:07.840 -> 54:15.200] to make more and more robust tires so that I can make that stop and I can continue to extract that
[54:16.000 -> 54:22.080] you know 3 tenths, 5 tenths, 7 tenths, whatever it is a lap and catch my person who's on the
[54:22.080 -> 54:25.220] older tires and hasn't made that stop.
[54:31.400 -> 54:31.960] But the issue when you do that is you wind up with a hard tire that on certain teams.
[54:37.020 -> 54:42.280] And I would say that the top five teams on certain tracks, the ones that have been newly resurfaced, mostly can run a race distance and not suffer an
[54:42.280 -> 54:47.920] immense amount of drop-off, but really, I think it's a small number
[54:47.920 -> 54:54.160] of tracks and not all of the teams and on those teams, not even all the drivers. Alonso, he could
[54:54.160 -> 55:00.720] do it. Stroll, I'm not convinced he has the tire management skills to run a zero stop on a hard
[55:00.720 -> 55:11.160] tire. I think he's going to need to stop because he can't manage the tires as well. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds, owner and user of Mint Mobile with a special holiday message.
[55:11.160 -> 55:15.640] If you sign up now for three months, you get three months free on every one of our plans,
[55:15.640 -> 55:20.740] even unlimited. Now, I realize this is more of a holiday offer than it is a holiday message,
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[56:23.000 -> 56:40.820] That's my take.
[56:40.820 -> 56:47.120] And if you really want to solve this issue and get people stopping more often, well, make the
[56:47.120 -> 56:55.440] pit lanes shorten the lap so that the teams have less of a pit delta when they come in without
[56:55.440 -> 57:02.720] endangering anyone in the pit lane. Yeah, I agree. I think it's tough because the pit lanes over the
[57:02.720 -> 57:05.120] last couple of seasons have got really tight.
[57:05.120 -> 57:09.960] There's been a lot of very near misses and cars, they're big cars, trying to get in these
[57:09.960 -> 57:13.920] small pit lanes, particularly there's places like Zandvoort and obviously Monaco and places
[57:13.920 -> 57:17.720] like that where things are really tough, Miami actually last year.
[57:17.720 -> 57:19.360] And so you have got to avoid that.
[57:19.360 -> 57:22.720] So then that makes sense with the pit lane delta.
[57:22.720 -> 57:23.720] I agree.
[57:23.720 -> 57:27.440] Again, there's always this thing in that it's very easy
[57:27.440 -> 57:31.680] to say, we should do it this way. And you think that would solve a solution, but then it would
[57:31.680 -> 57:37.200] bring up another problem. We're always moving the problem around. But I still think that if we just
[57:37.200 -> 57:44.240] took softer compounds, the ones we have, the C0 to C5, if we just went one step softer,
[57:46.040 -> 57:52.080] C0 to C5, if we just went one step softer, what would happen? Because yes, our pit delta is still big, but then you've got the drop-off and also that
[57:52.080 -> 57:55.560] the teams aren't going to gamble on a tire really running out.
[57:55.560 -> 58:04.040] That soft tire that no one used this weekend, sorry, in Miami, if that was the medium and
[58:04.040 -> 58:06.360] we were still a bit softer, we would have had an incredible
[58:06.360 -> 58:11.320] two, three stop race. And we would have seen overtakes happening in the pit lane. We would
[58:11.320 -> 58:13.240] have seen loads of different strategies. We would have seen-
[58:13.240 -> 58:19.680] It would have been a seven stopper. I mean, McLaren abandoned that tire after four laps.
[58:19.680 -> 58:22.560] But they would have done, well, maybe they would have done four, five, six, seven, eight
[58:22.560 -> 58:27.880] laps at the start. And then they would have been pushing two hard sets, maybe they would have done four, five, six, seven, eight laps at the start and then they would have been pushing two hard sets and we would have had a two-stop.
[58:27.880 -> 58:30.920] There's nothing to say that's not the case, but again, that could have brought up everyone
[58:30.920 -> 58:35.840] cuddling their tire and not making overtakes and there being big DRS trains and things
[58:35.840 -> 58:36.840] like that.
[58:36.840 -> 58:40.280] It could bring up other things that I'm not foreseeing here, but I would like to see what
[58:40.280 -> 58:50.560] would happen if we're not so conservative when we're picking the tire compounds. CURTAIN OK, I'm a person occasionally known to have an opinion, and I know that Spanners,
[58:50.560 -> 58:54.800] and this actually sent me off on a bit of a rant that got me into trouble with my call
[58:54.800 -> 58:55.800] field.
[58:55.800 -> 58:56.800] But...
[58:56.800 -> 58:57.800] ALICE No, Matt.
[58:57.800 -> 58:58.800] What?
[58:58.800 -> 59:02.960] Well, no, you've given away why we had to edit all that stuff out of that episode now,
[59:02.960 -> 59:03.960] haven't you?
[59:03.960 -> 59:05.200] And that horn in
[59:05.200 -> 59:08.680] your background agrees with you. Yes.
[59:08.680 -> 59:11.040] That's your fault for bringing me in that lap.
[59:11.040 -> 59:17.520] Okay. We don't often have to edit stuff out of Miss Apex in broad sweepstakes, but just
[59:17.520 -> 59:23.760] know that Matt got us into such a legal quagmire that we had to delete 10 minutes out of a
[59:23.760 -> 59:25.220] show and thank goodness it was a
[59:25.960 -> 59:31.720] Prereq it was is entirely boring. We learned nothing. We'd I learned loads of things
[59:32.760 -> 59:35.440] I learned lots of things that were legally problematic
[59:36.120 -> 59:40.040] You were not making this better. No, I got into trouble with Mike on Twitter
[59:40.760 -> 59:47.160] Because and and this is calm. I would like your opinion on this in fact because everyone was saying Oh
[59:47.160 -> 59:55.720] Karun Chandak suggestion that we mandate running all three specifications of tires is genius in it
[59:55.720 -> 01:00:01.080] that's what will make f1 exciting again because as we all know f1 is the most boring sport in
[01:00:01.080 -> 01:00:05.040] the world now there will never be another interesting race. And
[01:00:05.040 -> 01:00:10.420] the only way to fix it is to come up with some random gimmicky tire rule. Not that I'm
[01:00:10.420 -> 01:00:14.800] trying to prejudice the jury here. I'm interested in your own opinion.
[01:00:14.800 -> 01:00:16.320] Leading the witness, your honor.
[01:00:16.320 -> 01:00:22.440] But the only way to fix it is, yeah, use all three compounds. So what did you think, Callum,
[01:00:22.440 -> 01:00:27.920] when you saw that? I had my own little internal battle when I saw that, right?
[01:00:28.800 -> 01:00:31.120] If you would have taken just that race, right?
[01:00:31.120 -> 01:00:36.000] If you'd taken Miami and you said, let's make everyone try all three sets of tires,
[01:00:36.000 -> 01:00:40.000] you would have seen people coming in to try and get rid of the self doing four laps absolutely
[01:00:40.000 -> 01:00:42.480] flat out and then getting back on the hard or the medium.
[01:00:42.480 -> 01:00:50.160] Like it would have improved that race in that scenario, I think. But again, like I was saying with unintended consequences with these
[01:00:50.160 -> 01:00:56.080] things, there was actually a Gran Turismo... Right. Sorry for the people who don't sim,
[01:00:56.080 -> 01:01:00.400] non-apologists, but there was a Gran Turismo thing a while back in Gran Turismo Sport,
[01:01:00.400 -> 01:01:03.840] the online races, where you had to do this. You had to do a soft, medium, hard.
[01:01:03.840 -> 01:01:06.080] And what everyone did was they did the soft as long as they
[01:01:06.080 -> 01:01:07.680] could because it was the quickest, the medium,
[01:01:07.680 -> 01:01:10.080] and then they bolt on the hard for half a lap at the end.
[01:01:10.080 -> 01:01:14.280] They do that literally for the lap, just to satisfy the rule.
[01:01:14.280 -> 01:01:16.200] And so we would see a lot of that, I think.
[01:01:16.200 -> 01:01:18.200] There'd be the tire that isn't in favor.
[01:01:18.200 -> 01:01:19.640] Everyone would be bolting on for one lap,
[01:01:19.640 -> 01:01:21.300] and there'd be loads and loads of stops.
[01:01:21.300 -> 01:01:22.960] And maybe it would mix things up,
[01:01:22.960 -> 01:01:24.760] but it would feel a bit wrong.
[01:01:24.760 -> 01:01:28.240] It's not the team's picking the best strategy,
[01:01:28.240 -> 01:01:31.520] it's them saying, which is the least worst, I think.
[01:01:31.520 -> 01:01:34.960] And so, again, I fell back on this and thought,
[01:01:34.960 -> 01:01:37.360] actually, no, it's not a good idea.
[01:01:37.360 -> 01:01:39.960] I know Karun's been pushing it for a while.
[01:01:39.960 -> 01:01:41.420] It doesn't feel right to me.
[01:01:41.420 -> 01:01:43.600] I think they should make the tires
[01:01:43.600 -> 01:01:45.460] suit a one or a two race,
[01:01:45.460 -> 01:01:47.740] two stop race, make it close,
[01:01:47.740 -> 01:01:49.020] and then you'll get exciting racing.
[01:01:49.020 -> 01:01:50.500] It's definitely a sticking plaster, Matt,
[01:01:50.500 -> 01:01:51.700] because it's those advert,
[01:01:51.700 -> 01:01:53.460] I don't know, I've seen them on TikTok or whatever,
[01:01:53.460 -> 01:01:54.860] where there's a leak in a water tank
[01:01:54.860 -> 01:01:57.940] and then someone slaps this big plaster,
[01:01:57.940 -> 01:02:01.020] this gel pack on, and that solves everything.
[01:02:01.020 -> 01:02:04.620] But basically, you would take away the whole wear thing
[01:02:04.620 -> 01:02:06.720] of the tires as an issue, because you would take away the whole wear thing of the tires as an issue because
[01:02:06.720 -> 01:02:12.160] you would basically, you know, Pirelli could just make the hardest tire and they all have a slightly
[01:02:12.160 -> 01:02:17.840] different lap time but you've got to arbitrarily change them so there wouldn't be a real benefit
[01:02:17.840 -> 01:02:23.440] to running them in a different order. It's definitely, you know, it's curing, like I said
[01:02:23.440 -> 01:02:31.280] on the race review, it's like, yeah, oh, I'm swallowing nails. How can I cure the scratchy throat I get? Oh, well, you could
[01:02:31.280 -> 01:02:39.840] just drink Savlon and chew on Sudocrem. No, stop swallowing nails. And I think, yeah,
[01:02:39.840 -> 01:02:45.880] the problem is that we got hooked on the fact that if you're on a different tyre, it creates
[01:02:45.880 -> 01:02:48.480] a delta between the cars, which improves overtaking.
[01:02:48.480 -> 01:02:54.280] And I think that was demonstrated really well in, say, 2014, 2015.
[01:02:54.280 -> 01:02:57.940] As uncompetitive as it was at the front, you would see that, yes, you had the tyre on the
[01:02:57.940 -> 01:03:02.400] option, if you did an alternate strategy, you'd come out suddenly on the soft tyre,
[01:03:02.400 -> 01:03:04.640] and you could start attacking and overtaking.
[01:03:04.640 -> 01:03:11.200] And that was quite exciting. But overtaking, the metric for overtaking, has been massively
[01:03:11.200 -> 01:03:16.960] overused. So people are saying, oh, oh, there was less overtakes in Miami this year than last year.
[01:03:16.960 -> 01:03:25.280] And the implication is that more overtakes equals a better race. I'm sure we can point to an example of a good race that had less
[01:03:25.280 -> 01:03:31.220] overtakes than a poor race that had more overtakes. So we get to the point where we're doing
[01:03:31.220 -> 01:03:36.440] overtakes for the sake of it. As a young man, my dad Callum, and don't judge me for this
[01:03:36.440 -> 01:03:41.280] Callum, right, don't judge my dad, rest in peace dad, he was a MotoGP fan. I know, I
[01:03:41.280 -> 01:03:47.120] know, I know, but I climbed away from that. I survived that rough childhood
[01:03:47.120 -> 01:03:53.200] to go into Formula One. But I was, I love the skill of MotoGP, I can see that. I was
[01:03:53.200 -> 01:03:56.920] a biker myself, I've toured around Europe on a bike, but the fact that they could kind
[01:03:56.920 -> 01:04:03.040] of almost ghost past each other, there was lots of overtakes, but that to me didn't recreate
[01:04:03.040 -> 01:04:07.940] what I loved about Formula One, which is the fact that you had to get your solid race car
[01:04:07.940 -> 01:04:09.580] past another solid race car.
[01:04:10.640 -> 01:04:13.120] I just think we've got to get away from judging a race
[01:04:13.120 -> 01:04:14.700] by the amount of overtakes.
[01:04:14.700 -> 01:04:16.200] Absolutely, I completely agree.
[01:04:16.200 -> 01:04:18.280] I think back to a couple of the races,
[01:04:18.280 -> 01:04:20.160] the ones that are on the top of my head is,
[01:04:20.160 -> 01:04:23.680] was it Hungary 2020 or 2021?
[01:04:23.680 -> 01:04:26.240] There was that one where Lewis pitted and was trying to...
[01:04:26.240 -> 01:04:31.040] No, Max pitted and was trying to catch Lewis. Often there aren't loads of overtakes in Hungary,
[01:04:31.040 -> 01:04:35.920] but that one, there was a battle at the front with differing strategies and both of them were
[01:04:35.920 -> 01:04:40.640] absolutely flat out in their own way. And it was really, really, really close. There was also the
[01:04:40.640 -> 01:04:44.880] same in Kota last year. And- Oh, Kota 21. Kota 21. Great example.
[01:04:44.880 -> 01:04:45.040] Yeah, exactly. And so there's not. Kota 21. Yeah. Great example.
[01:04:45.040 -> 01:04:45.400] Yeah.
[01:04:45.400 -> 01:04:46.700] And so there's not loads of it.
[01:04:46.700 -> 01:04:49.000] You don't need overtaking.
[01:04:49.000 -> 01:04:53.480] I keep seeing stats for Formula E of this many overtakes
[01:04:53.480 -> 01:04:54.000] happened.
[01:04:54.000 -> 01:04:56.400] And yes, the racing was great in Monaco last week.
[01:04:56.400 -> 01:04:57.120] Yeah, it was fun.
[01:04:57.120 -> 01:04:59.240] But most of them were people going through attack mode
[01:04:59.240 -> 01:05:01.200] and all that sort of stuff was getting counted.
[01:05:01.200 -> 01:05:03.560] And so it doesn't mean it's a great race.
[01:05:03.560 -> 01:05:04.360] Yeah, you're right.
[01:05:04.360 -> 01:05:05.120] That metric isn't right. But also, the tires at the mean it's a great race. Yeah, you're right, that metric isn't
[01:05:05.120 -> 01:05:11.920] right but also the tyres at the moment are an issue. They're too hard, yeah. If Max is doing
[01:05:11.920 -> 01:05:16.880] 40-something laps absolutely flat out and Lewis is bolting on mediums and they're not as quick then
[01:05:17.520 -> 01:05:25.640] that is a problem. That's a Mercedes problem. Yeah. Okay, but fundamentally there are lots of racing series out
[01:05:25.640 -> 01:05:31.400] there that don't have wearing tires. So isn't the whole Pirelli thing
[01:05:31.400 -> 01:05:37.160] a sticking plaster in itself? Lots of them are. I don't know I immediately
[01:05:37.160 -> 01:05:42.760] thought of Le Mans where people will do they'll quad stint tires in the night but again
[01:05:42.760 -> 01:05:45.120] that is a race that's stretched out over 24 hours.
[01:05:45.120 -> 01:05:47.160] So there is a lot of strategy that's going of,
[01:05:47.160 -> 01:05:49.840] how long can you make the tires last?
[01:05:49.840 -> 01:05:52.320] Formula E, again, they don't change tires.
[01:05:52.320 -> 01:05:53.480] IndyCar, they do.
[01:05:53.480 -> 01:05:55.040] So I don't know.
[01:05:55.040 -> 01:05:56.760] I'm sure there's something there,
[01:05:56.760 -> 01:06:01.240] but really it's about having different strategies
[01:06:01.240 -> 01:06:02.360] that are close.
[01:06:02.360 -> 01:06:03.200] I think that's what it is.
[01:06:03.200 -> 01:06:05.720] So by the way, to be fair, I'm a fan of this
[01:06:05.720 -> 01:06:11.720] Pirelli model. I think it's great. You've got a spec part that will... and you've created a problem
[01:06:11.720 -> 01:06:16.480] for the teams, which is you can have a fast tyre, but it won't last as long. You can have a durable
[01:06:16.480 -> 01:06:22.760] tyre, which is slower, and it will last longer, but not the entire race. So I'm actually a fan of
[01:06:22.760 -> 01:06:25.040] what Pirelli have been asked to do. I think Callum, you've
[01:06:25.040 -> 01:06:29.500] hit the nail on the head. They just need to do it better, be a bit braver. And as fans,
[01:06:29.500 -> 01:06:34.280] if we have the odd race where the tires fail, let's not overreact. Matt, final word for
[01:06:34.280 -> 01:06:37.240] you because this has been a very extended tire segment.
[01:06:37.240 -> 01:06:39.800] Yeah, and we've only gotten started.
[01:06:39.800 -> 01:06:49.760] No, we haven't. Let's move on. Make'm going to hit... Make your last point and I'm going to hit the bumper. My last point is people want to blame Pirelli for this, but I wouldn't.
[01:06:49.760 -> 01:06:54.120] This is an issue for the FIA and for this regulation set.
[01:06:54.120 -> 01:06:59.920] And the simple reason for that is the main problem now is the delta for overtakes is
[01:06:59.920 -> 01:07:06.800] higher because the teams have been doing nothing but reclaiming outwash in contravention of what
[01:07:06.800 -> 01:07:12.800] the FIA wanted. The FIA is outgunned, outmanned, outnumbered, and outplanned by the teams.
[01:07:13.360 -> 01:07:20.880] I'm waiting for Spanners to catch a reference. And as a result, the regulation sets become less
[01:07:20.880 -> 01:07:25.440] effective, overtakes become harder, and the immediate response is to say,
[01:07:25.440 -> 01:07:30.960] oh, it's the fault of the tires. Pirelli have delivered exactly what's been asked of them
[01:07:31.600 -> 01:07:39.360] by the FIA. Not that it's perfect, but it's definitely better. And it's only the FIA that
[01:07:39.360 -> 01:07:47.520] can really solve this problem by policing the teams as we get deeper into this regulation set. That was a really boring segment, but whose fault is it?
[01:07:48.240 -> 01:07:49.440] Whose fault is it?
[01:07:50.800 -> 01:07:51.360] It was Matt's.
[01:07:53.520 -> 01:07:56.560] Now we're moving on, right, we're going to move on, and I'm so
[01:07:56.560 -> 01:07:58.640] delighted that we're going to have this segment.
[01:07:58.640 -> 01:08:01.440] Okay, you've had an hour of news and tire chat.
[01:08:01.440 -> 01:08:05.760] Don't come up at me with criticisms of sim racing chat because what I
[01:08:05.760 -> 01:08:12.800] want to talk about is can you relate your sim racing or even video game experience into the
[01:08:12.800 -> 01:08:19.600] real world? And we have living proof because Callum McIntyre here has been grabbed by the
[01:08:19.600 -> 01:08:27.200] scruff of the neck and dragged from the sim racing rig out onto the real world. So I'm going to,
[01:08:27.200 -> 01:08:32.560] I want to have a conversation about the specific skills that are transferable from the sim rig,
[01:08:32.560 -> 01:08:37.760] from computer games into the real world. But firstly, Callum, tell me about your experience.
[01:08:37.760 -> 01:08:42.480] And as much as I want you to dumb it down, because I am so jealous of you, I hate you.
[01:08:43.200 -> 01:08:46.480] Tell me where you started and what you've been doing.
[01:08:46.480 -> 01:08:51.200] Cheers, Fan. It's been a mental year. I'm absolutely pinching myself about it.
[01:08:51.200 -> 01:08:54.560] But I hate you. I'm going to say I hate you periodically.
[01:08:54.560 -> 01:09:02.640] Okay, fine. That's good. I'll tune out. So Overdrive, our YouTube channel, we make videos
[01:09:02.640 -> 01:09:05.360] about cars and we do a lot of fun stuff on track.
[01:09:05.560 -> 01:09:08.840] And Caterham reached out and said, we have this Academy series,
[01:09:09.040 -> 01:09:10.880] which I've watched for a long time, actually.
[01:09:10.880 -> 01:09:12.200] It's really great racing online.
[01:09:12.400 -> 01:09:14.320] And would Callum like to do it?
[01:09:14.520 -> 01:09:15.840] Oh, my goodness.
[01:09:16.040 -> 01:09:18.040] Yes, I'm still waiting for this call.
[01:09:18.240 -> 01:09:20.080] Are you waiting for this call, Spanners?
[01:09:20.280 -> 01:09:21.320] I'm waiting for the call.
[01:09:21.520 -> 01:09:22.920] I'll put in a good word.
[01:09:23.120 -> 01:09:25.680] Anyway, so the Caterham Academy is a
[01:09:31.280 -> 01:09:37.200] series specifically tailored to amateur racing drivers. So those who, novice racing drivers. So you can either build the car or have the car built. And you basically pay one lump sum and
[01:09:37.200 -> 01:09:42.640] you get the year of racing and the car all chucked in. You can then after that work up their ranks,
[01:09:42.640 -> 01:09:49.680] keep upgrading your car faster and faster for the different series and kind of go from there. But Caterham have made it with a spec tire,
[01:09:49.680 -> 01:09:57.040] Matt you'll love that, and very, very similar cars. So it's basically a spec series and they
[01:09:57.040 -> 01:10:02.560] take you to loads of the great tracks in the UK and coach you through your first year of racing.
[01:10:02.560 -> 01:10:05.000] So you actually go to get your license
[01:10:05.000 -> 01:10:06.680] with everyone who's racing in that series.
[01:10:06.680 -> 01:10:11.040] And I did that at Castle Combe in a little fiesta.
[01:10:11.040 -> 01:10:12.840] And then you go racing.
[01:10:12.840 -> 01:10:17.640] I actually built my car along with my colleague, Will.
[01:10:17.640 -> 01:10:19.520] We did it in 24 hours for a video.
[01:10:19.520 -> 01:10:20.400] So that video is up on our-
[01:10:20.400 -> 01:10:21.240] Oh, wow.
[01:10:21.240 -> 01:10:22.480] So a real kit car.
[01:10:22.480 -> 01:10:23.680] We built it from a kit.
[01:10:23.680 -> 01:10:24.700] Yes, you can do that.
[01:10:24.700 -> 01:10:28.720] Lots of, I think about 40% of the other drivers have done that themselves. You can buy it from
[01:10:28.720 -> 01:10:32.880] Caterham, but you can build it yourself. So that means when I'm bleeding the brakes or playing with
[01:10:32.880 -> 01:10:38.640] camber angles or things like that, you know, you've done it before. So it's a really incredible
[01:10:38.640 -> 01:10:44.240] series. You race at places like Alton Park, Donington, Snetterton. Those in the UK will
[01:10:44.240 -> 01:10:46.520] know those as really incredible circuits.
[01:10:46.520 -> 01:10:47.360] So yeah, I was-
[01:10:47.360 -> 01:10:48.320] Donnington as well?
[01:10:48.320 -> 01:10:49.160] Sorry?
[01:10:49.160 -> 01:10:50.480] Donnington's on your calendar as well, I think.
[01:10:50.480 -> 01:10:53.800] Yes, Dunnington, Snetterton, Alton Park.
[01:10:53.800 -> 01:10:56.480] I don't know, Cadwell Park, we were at last time.
[01:10:56.480 -> 01:10:57.960] So really excellent circuits.
[01:10:57.960 -> 01:11:00.480] And yeah, they take you racing for the first time.
[01:11:00.480 -> 01:11:02.600] You're racing against loads of other novices.
[01:11:02.600 -> 01:11:03.940] They can't have held a race license
[01:11:03.940 -> 01:11:06.740] or a national karting license before.
[01:11:06.740 -> 01:11:08.400] So it means that you're not racing against kids
[01:11:08.400 -> 01:11:09.980] who've been doing it since they're six.
[01:11:09.980 -> 01:11:12.500] You know, you're all in the same boat learning it together.
[01:11:12.500 -> 01:11:13.860] And it's been absolutely incredible.
[01:11:13.860 -> 01:11:16.620] We've done two races so far, one was a sprint,
[01:11:16.620 -> 01:11:18.100] one was a race.
[01:11:18.100 -> 01:11:19.940] So the sprint was at Kerbera,
[01:11:19.940 -> 01:11:21.700] and then the race was at Cadwell Park.
[01:11:21.700 -> 01:11:23.300] So it's been really, really good.
[01:11:23.300 -> 01:11:25.840] But the thing I'm really interested in
[01:11:25.840 -> 01:11:28.560] is that I've got a lot of experience in the sim,
[01:11:28.560 -> 01:11:30.240] like a similar story to a lot of people,
[01:11:30.240 -> 01:11:32.040] like you, both of you two,
[01:11:32.040 -> 01:11:34.520] is that we've done a lot of sim racing,
[01:11:34.520 -> 01:11:37.080] we've done endurance races, we've done online races,
[01:11:37.080 -> 01:11:39.360] we've set up a car before,
[01:11:39.360 -> 01:11:41.560] we've made lots of overtakes.
[01:11:41.560 -> 01:11:42.840] We've done all of that in the sim
[01:11:42.840 -> 01:11:44.640] without feeling the G-force
[01:11:44.640 -> 01:11:48.000] and without having fear of hurting yourself.
[01:11:48.000 -> 01:11:50.280] And so how much of that does translate?
[01:11:50.280 -> 01:11:54.840] And so, you know, I'm a 2,800 when I try I rating driver
[01:11:54.840 -> 01:11:56.120] for those who know what that means.
[01:11:56.120 -> 01:11:56.960] And-
[01:11:56.960 -> 01:11:59.120] That means he's about as rubbish as me.
[01:11:59.120 -> 01:11:59.960] No, no, no, that's reasonable.
[01:11:59.960 -> 01:12:01.680] What are you 2,300?
[01:12:01.680 -> 01:12:02.520] Sorry, Spanners.
[01:12:02.520 -> 01:12:04.080] No, so, so, so, yeah,
[01:12:04.080 -> 01:12:07.360] the I rating is based on like the results that you kind of grind out.
[01:12:07.360 -> 01:12:09.680] It's not necessarily like, are you the fastest driver?
[01:12:09.680 -> 01:12:12.480] It's more about how well you do in races.
[01:12:12.480 -> 01:12:17.280] So I don't, Callum, I'm not saying your ultimate pace isn't incredible,
[01:12:17.280 -> 01:12:20.320] but for example, my ultimate pace is well off.
[01:12:20.320 -> 01:12:24.880] Like it's a second and maybe a second and a half off ultimate pace from the top drivers.
[01:12:24.880 -> 01:12:30.000] Yeah, I could get to kind of like 3000 by being like dad driving, like slow and steady, make sure I
[01:12:30.000 -> 01:12:37.200] pick up the points, don't be win or bin. But yeah, I think we're not dissimilar. You also, like me,
[01:12:37.200 -> 01:12:42.640] have a bit of a secret advantage in that, you know, I have Brad Philpott, who I always say to
[01:12:42.640 -> 01:12:47.240] him, hey, Brad, let's make some content. And in this content, let's talk about specifically
[01:12:47.240 -> 01:12:51.340] how we addressed my weakness in iRacing.
[01:12:51.340 -> 01:12:53.280] You've got Scott Mansell, of course,
[01:12:53.280 -> 01:12:54.760] who's a really experienced coach
[01:12:54.760 -> 01:12:58.000] and top level British sports car driver.
[01:12:58.000 -> 01:13:01.480] But his help was, I think, minimal in this.
[01:13:01.480 -> 01:13:04.000] And you guys were able to make a video that showed,
[01:13:04.000 -> 01:13:05.120] like, how well
[01:13:09.880 -> 01:13:11.120] Does your skill from that? I don't want to say mediocre Callum, but I'm saying
[01:13:15.560 -> 01:13:16.120] Accessible from an accessible sim racing point of view where you've got a high-end
[01:13:21.920 -> 01:13:28.320] Belt driven wheel, which is a you know, not quite as good as my it's not as good as my direct drive wheel Callum It's not a competition, but I win. But from a very accessible and affordable sim rig
[01:13:28.320 -> 01:13:32.540] out onto a Caterham race track.
[01:13:32.540 -> 01:13:35.000] And I think it's incredible from your video
[01:13:35.000 -> 01:13:37.320] how many of those skills translated
[01:13:37.320 -> 01:13:39.040] onto the real world track.
[01:13:39.040 -> 01:13:42.560] So yeah, I think I was amazed.
[01:13:42.560 -> 01:13:46.720] But I would say, Scott, when I learned to sim race,
[01:13:46.720 -> 01:13:48.360] he coached me.
[01:13:48.360 -> 01:13:49.360] And so there was that.
[01:13:49.360 -> 01:13:51.800] And I've also been through the Driver 61 sim racing programs
[01:13:51.800 -> 01:13:52.840] that are excellent, by the way.
[01:13:52.840 -> 01:13:53.680] Sorry, small plug.
[01:13:53.680 -> 01:13:55.400] No, no, please plug them.
[01:13:55.400 -> 01:13:56.640] They're really good.
[01:13:56.640 -> 01:14:00.200] Well, I gained 1,000 I rating after doing those.
[01:14:00.200 -> 01:14:04.400] And so I would say I did sim racing,
[01:14:04.400 -> 01:14:05.000] but I take it seriously.
[01:14:05.720 -> 01:14:09.720] I drive around thinking, what is limiting me here?
[01:14:09.720 -> 01:14:11.640] Is it the front end of the car or the back end of the car?
[01:14:11.640 -> 01:14:12.880] What am I doing with tires?
[01:14:12.880 -> 01:14:14.460] Am I using all of the road?
[01:14:14.460 -> 01:14:17.000] I'm trying to think about it as I would
[01:14:17.000 -> 01:14:18.240] when I'm in a real car.
[01:14:19.080 -> 01:14:21.520] I would say with the 2000 iRacing,
[01:14:21.520 -> 01:14:24.840] we got a bit of pushback on the Driver 61 channel
[01:14:24.840 -> 01:14:25.200] with everyone saying, well, that means you're in the top 7% of iRac, we got a bit of pushback on the Driver 61 channel with everyone saying,
[01:14:25.200 -> 01:14:29.920] well, that means you're in the top 7% of iRacers, which is true. But I would say it's an average
[01:14:29.920 -> 01:14:32.480] situation for those who are taking it seriously. Who do want it? Yes, you are.
[01:14:32.480 -> 01:14:33.600] And are racing a lot. Absolutely.
[01:14:33.600 -> 01:14:38.480] So I think there's that. But I was really shocked. And the reason we made that video was that I was
[01:14:38.480 -> 01:14:42.560] really shocked when I got into that first race, I pulled away from the line, I was side by side
[01:14:42.560 -> 01:14:50.560] with someone else. And I did everything as I would in the sim. And it turned out the way it would in the sim. I thought I would be
[01:14:50.560 -> 01:14:57.120] more scared of having another car with wheels and an engine, like inches from my car doing 100 miles
[01:14:57.120 -> 01:15:03.760] an hour, but it was a similar feeling. And that's why I was like, you know, felt validated that all
[01:15:03.760 -> 01:15:06.400] of those hours we've spent in the sim, it does work.
[01:15:06.400 -> 01:15:09.800] So I watched that video and there was no hesitation at all.
[01:15:09.800 -> 01:15:16.700] You got to a corner where basically he had the inside line and it was a kind of a, I would say, a medium speed right-hander.
[01:15:16.700 -> 01:15:19.900] You were on the outside and you just sent it around the outside.
[01:15:19.900 -> 01:15:27.800] And if that's the first time you've ever been in that situation, I kind of almost judge you for going, yeah, I've done this on the sim.
[01:15:27.800 -> 01:15:30.520] I'm definitely not going to die from doing this.
[01:15:30.520 -> 01:15:34.560] Yeah, I'm quite proud of myself for that overtake, I will be honest.
[01:15:34.560 -> 01:15:37.040] But yeah, I didn't even think about it.
[01:15:37.040 -> 01:15:39.320] I know it sounds silly, but that was first instinctive.
[01:15:39.320 -> 01:15:40.800] I'm going to sling it around the outside.
[01:15:40.800 -> 01:15:43.160] I had tried that line in testing.
[01:15:43.160 -> 01:15:48.020] I'm trying all these things, driving offline, knowing that the race was going to be coming up and I would have to know these
[01:15:48.020 -> 01:15:53.200] things and where's good to overtake, how late can I break in these places? But yes, I was
[01:15:53.200 -> 01:15:55.600] astonished at how natural it felt.
[01:15:55.600 -> 01:16:01.840] Well, the interesting thing to me that you're not mentioning now, because like Spanners,
[01:16:01.840 -> 01:16:07.200] I've had exactly one experience where I was able to drive a track
[01:16:07.200 -> 01:16:14.640] in a sim and then drive a real race car on that track at a track day, not an actual race.
[01:16:14.640 -> 01:16:18.960] And I found myself very limited by the fact that they were only allowed three spins on
[01:16:18.960 -> 01:16:23.200] the day and they'd already had one of them before I even got to the track.
[01:16:23.200 -> 01:16:25.440] It tends to raise your being cautious level.
[01:16:26.240 -> 01:16:31.840] But what struck me and what I really want to know about is it looked like that race that you were
[01:16:31.840 -> 01:16:36.880] discussing was in some rather changeable conditions. And that's something that we can't even
[01:16:36.880 -> 01:16:43.280] begin to taste in the sim. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a lot of similarities here that we spoke about in
[01:16:43.280 -> 01:16:46.800] the video and we'll talk about today. There are lots and lots of things that tied across.
[01:16:46.800 -> 01:16:49.000] You know, all of the technique, all of the car control,
[01:16:49.000 -> 01:16:50.940] all of the race craft is the same.
[01:16:50.940 -> 01:16:53.880] Learning to heel and toe, we've got H-pattern gearboxes.
[01:16:53.880 -> 01:16:57.120] So I had to learn to be blipping the throttle
[01:16:57.120 -> 01:16:58.560] as you go down the gearbox to avoid,
[01:16:58.560 -> 01:17:01.920] you know, the car's so light, 600 kilos with me in it.
[01:17:01.920 -> 01:17:04.400] If you get a gear change wrong, you lock up those wheels,
[01:17:04.400 -> 01:17:05.260] you're going to the barrier.
[01:17:05.260 -> 01:17:07.500] So there's lots of those things that you need to learn.
[01:17:07.500 -> 01:17:10.420] But the biggest thing is wet tracks.
[01:17:10.420 -> 01:17:11.900] I-Racing doesn't have rain currently.
[01:17:11.900 -> 01:17:13.380] Loads of people will be saying,
[01:17:13.380 -> 01:17:16.100] a certain course has rain, you should try it on there.
[01:17:16.100 -> 01:17:17.940] But the wet line isn't the same.
[01:17:17.940 -> 01:17:20.740] And so when I first got to Brands Hatch,
[01:17:20.740 -> 01:17:21.860] and they're like, right off you go,
[01:17:21.860 -> 01:17:24.980] in Caterham's car that they very kindly lent me,
[01:17:24.980 -> 01:17:28.960] saying, go on, and it's absolutely torrential. You're on a track day with loads of other cars
[01:17:28.960 -> 01:17:32.960] and you're like, right, I've got to figure this out. It's nothing like it is in the sim. That
[01:17:32.960 -> 01:17:38.080] was the biggest single difference, changeable conditions and feeling the grip. It makes it,
[01:17:38.960 -> 01:17:45.120] I mean, it's worlds apart. So just on this, on wet lines, so there's lots of computer games that will simulate
[01:17:45.920 -> 01:17:51.680] having rain and you can play an F1 game and you can have rain and it will reduce the grip. What
[01:17:51.680 -> 01:17:58.240] doesn't tend to get simulated is something that you will see on your local outdoor karting track,
[01:17:58.240 -> 01:18:03.840] if it's sodden, like if there's standing water, what you absolutely need to do is avoid the racing
[01:18:03.840 -> 01:18:05.120] line because the racing line has
[01:18:05.120 -> 01:18:11.040] a build-up of rubber on it and that is extra slippy so you suddenly have to kind of explore
[01:18:11.040 -> 01:18:17.520] the track and find the the line. So you go extra wide and then you suddenly find a bit of the track
[01:18:17.520 -> 01:18:22.400] where the water's drained away well enough for the the track to grip and when you find that you look
[01:18:22.400 -> 01:18:25.120] like an absolute superhero.
[01:18:25.120 -> 01:18:29.560] So I remember racing against Brad Philpott and Alex Van Geen in the wet at Milton Keynes
[01:18:29.560 -> 01:18:35.320] Daytona and I was like how are they dancing past me as if I'm standing still and then
[01:18:35.320 -> 01:18:41.960] when we got out of the car they said oh all the kerbs have quite porous so the kerbs allow
[01:18:41.960 -> 01:18:45.000] the water through therefore there's no standing water.
[01:18:45.120 -> 01:18:50.440] Therefore, you aquaplane deliberately to the apex and then you catch the curb
[01:18:50.440 -> 01:18:52.520] and that's enough to sling you around.
[01:18:52.680 -> 01:18:56.960] So, yeah, so that's kind of a local track thing that is not currently
[01:18:57.200 -> 01:18:59.320] able to be simulated on the sim.
[01:18:59.560 -> 01:19:04.280] But what I'm really interested in, Callum, is physically, as a driver,
[01:19:04.560 -> 01:19:07.200] if you're in a sim rig like yours or even
[01:19:07.200 -> 01:19:14.320] a good one like mine you are the physical movements you're doing with your hands and the physical
[01:19:14.320 -> 01:19:19.120] movements you're doing with your feet are identical I think and I think that's the main transferable
[01:19:20.320 -> 01:19:28.800] application. So it's interesting to know like when you got out there with your Caterham, did you feel confident to manage oversteer, manage understeer?
[01:19:28.800 -> 01:19:33.040] Yeah, so the car control, like you said, was exactly the same. I felt, particularly in Caterham,
[01:19:33.040 -> 01:19:37.840] you're right back over the rear wheel, so you feel everything, and it's so light. Honestly,
[01:19:37.840 -> 01:19:44.160] the feedback it gives you, I'm sure, is second to none in a car like that. And so it teaches you a
[01:19:44.160 -> 01:19:45.120] lot that way.
[01:19:45.120 -> 01:19:46.560] So there's that.
[01:19:46.560 -> 01:19:48.320] Then also the thing about the wet lines
[01:19:48.320 -> 01:19:50.720] you're talking about is that you might be thinking,
[01:19:50.720 -> 01:19:53.920] oh, I didn't think it made that much difference, right?
[01:19:53.920 -> 01:19:56.360] But if you're on the inside of the track going
[01:19:56.360 -> 01:19:58.280] into a corner off the rubber, if you
[01:19:58.280 -> 01:20:02.640] brake like that on the rubbery line, you're going straight off.
[01:20:02.640 -> 01:20:04.280] You lock up, you're off.
[01:20:04.280 -> 01:20:07.400] And so really avoiding those wet lines was absolutely crucial.
[01:20:07.400 -> 01:20:09.960] I was in qualifying at Cadwell Park
[01:20:09.960 -> 01:20:13.280] and sat there in the assembly bay, and it started raining.
[01:20:13.280 -> 01:20:15.400] And so we were going into our first quali session
[01:20:15.400 -> 01:20:17.000] with absolutely soaking wet.
[01:20:17.000 -> 01:20:19.080] Luckily, I won the race to the assembly area,
[01:20:19.080 -> 01:20:20.440] so I went out first.
[01:20:20.440 -> 01:20:22.120] And it was wet to start with.
[01:20:22.120 -> 01:20:24.280] And so you're having to figure it out, having not driven
[01:20:24.280 -> 01:20:29.080] that track in the wet before. and then it dried over the session. So I was leading the
[01:20:29.080 -> 01:20:34.420] session to begin with, and then started to fall down as the track was drying, and then
[01:20:34.420 -> 01:20:38.820] had to figure out where parts of the track under the trees were still wet. And then the
[01:20:38.820 -> 01:20:42.340] rest that was up on top of the hill has been dried by the wind and was dry. So you're having
[01:20:42.340 -> 01:20:48.800] to react naturally to how much grip there is when you haven't driven on that bit of track with that much grip. You're having to
[01:20:48.800 -> 01:20:54.480] sort of infer it from other things. And so that was a real skill that Scott taught me in the car
[01:20:54.480 -> 01:21:00.000] that I didn't learn from sim racing. Well, and this is the question I wanted to most ask,
[01:21:00.560 -> 01:21:05.980] because up until the point where you said, you know, if you crashed it, it was your problem.
[01:21:05.980 -> 01:21:08.360] I was thinking of the video where he went out and said,
[01:21:08.360 -> 01:21:11.640] oh, I immediately induced all kinds of handling problems
[01:21:11.640 -> 01:21:13.380] in the car to learn about it.
[01:21:13.380 -> 01:21:17.320] What did he teach you about learning a track rapidly?
[01:21:17.320 -> 01:21:20.040] And is that something that you were then able to take
[01:21:20.040 -> 01:21:22.880] from real life back to your sim racing?
[01:21:22.880 -> 01:21:25.920] Yeah, that's the biggest. Yeah. Super interesting question.
[01:21:26.080 -> 01:21:29.600] So in the sim, when, when I learn a track, right, I've got a race in 20 minutes,
[01:21:29.600 -> 01:21:34.000] I'm thinking about it and you're, you're going, you're basically, what I do is I
[01:21:34.200 -> 01:21:37.600] take a guess of this car, this track, where are the breaking points going to be?
[01:21:37.600 -> 01:21:38.360] What are the gears going to be?
[01:21:38.360 -> 01:21:40.080] And you kind of go from there and you refine it.
[01:21:40.080 -> 01:21:43.040] You go, I break a bit early, a bit late, and you play with it there, but really
[01:21:43.040 -> 01:21:45.200] you need 10 laps,
[01:21:45.200 -> 01:21:49.920] 20 laps, 30 laps to be on the pace. For a 24-hour race, you're really grinding. You're doing
[01:21:49.920 -> 01:21:55.120] hundreds of laps. And there isn't really a substitute for that time. You can tell,
[01:21:55.120 -> 01:21:58.960] because Max Verstappen, one of the most talented drivers in the world, is doing 50 hours before a
[01:21:58.960 -> 01:22:03.600] race. So in the sim, you haven't got the feeling, so you have to repeat it over and over again.
[01:22:03.600 -> 01:22:06.520] In real life, we went to Dunnington.
[01:22:06.520 -> 01:22:08.280] It's a super slippery track in the way.
[01:22:08.280 -> 01:22:12.300] I was there with Scott, and I took him out first for him
[01:22:12.300 -> 01:22:13.860] to assess how things were going.
[01:22:13.860 -> 01:22:16.100] And I went out, and I was steady, and I built up,
[01:22:16.100 -> 01:22:18.520] and I thought I was doing everything right.
[01:22:18.520 -> 01:22:20.760] So I was working up to the limit,
[01:22:20.760 -> 01:22:23.160] not really going outside it.
[01:22:23.160 -> 01:22:25.160] And he pulled me into the pits after two laps
[01:22:25.160 -> 01:22:28.440] and said, right, you want to get faster over 50 laps.
[01:22:28.440 -> 01:22:30.960] I need you to get faster over three corners.
[01:22:30.960 -> 01:22:31.960] That's the difference.
[01:22:31.960 -> 01:22:32.440] Yeah.
[01:22:32.440 -> 01:22:32.920] Yeah.
[01:22:32.920 -> 01:22:34.040] So Scott hopped in.
[01:22:34.040 -> 01:22:36.420] He said, treat this like a quali session when you're out
[01:22:36.420 -> 01:22:36.720] with me.
[01:22:36.720 -> 01:22:37.440] And so he hopped in.
[01:22:37.440 -> 01:22:39.100] He said, let me show you what I'm doing.
[01:22:39.100 -> 01:22:40.220] So we come up to turn one.
[01:22:40.220 -> 01:22:43.320] It's a sort of medium speed right hander at Donington.
[01:22:43.320 -> 01:22:45.840] And he winds on loads of lock immediately to make
[01:22:45.840 -> 01:22:51.600] it understeer. So we're coming out the pits so we're not at the speed you would be going on a
[01:22:51.600 -> 01:22:56.400] normal lap. He winds on loads of lock, feels what the understeer feels like, the g-force,
[01:22:56.400 -> 01:23:00.000] what's the wheel giving him back, what does that feel like? Okay I've got that, I know what it will
[01:23:00.000 -> 01:23:05.640] do up until the point it understeers. Then as we get through the corner, he sort of neutralizes the understeer
[01:23:05.640 -> 01:23:06.480] with a bit of throttle,
[01:23:06.480 -> 01:23:08.760] and then he whacks on loads of throttle
[01:23:08.760 -> 01:23:09.940] to make it oversteer.
[01:23:09.940 -> 01:23:12.200] So he's deliberately driving over the limit.
[01:23:12.200 -> 01:23:14.760] If the limit's here, he's stepping it over.
[01:23:14.760 -> 01:23:17.120] And so he goes, right, I know where the limit is now.
[01:23:17.120 -> 01:23:18.920] I've got this feeling in my core.
[01:23:18.920 -> 01:23:19.920] I know how I can brake.
[01:23:19.920 -> 01:23:21.000] I know how I can turn in,
[01:23:21.000 -> 01:23:22.840] and I know how I can come out the corner.
[01:23:22.840 -> 01:23:24.580] And then he goes, right, well, the old hairpin's
[01:23:24.580 -> 01:23:26.480] the next real big corner I need to deal with.
[01:23:26.480 -> 01:23:30.640] I know it's roughly like this. I've got this feeling of the G-force. Let's take a better
[01:23:30.640 -> 01:23:34.560] educated guess at that corner. He then goes through that corner. He's, okay, well, I went
[01:23:34.560 -> 01:23:39.200] in a bit too hot, bit too slow or whatever. And then he infers that. So after one lap,
[01:23:39.200 -> 01:23:47.120] he's made the car go over the limit 12 times. Whereas I was doing it once in five laps
[01:23:47.120 -> 01:23:48.120] by driving carefully.
[01:23:48.120 -> 01:23:49.480] So I was driving thinking,
[01:23:49.480 -> 01:23:51.280] where's the limit creeping up, creeping up,
[01:23:51.280 -> 01:23:52.340] being scared of where it is,
[01:23:52.340 -> 01:23:53.180] scared to go over it,
[01:23:53.180 -> 01:23:54.680] because I think I'm going to go in the barrier.
[01:23:54.680 -> 01:23:55.520] Whereas Scott said,
[01:23:55.520 -> 01:23:58.000] I found it in lap one, turn one,
[01:23:58.000 -> 01:23:59.440] and then he's inferring it from there.
[01:23:59.440 -> 01:24:00.360] So I've actually,
[01:24:00.360 -> 01:24:02.060] I've applied that to my sim racing.
[01:24:02.060 -> 01:24:03.400] Since watching that video,
[01:24:03.400 -> 01:24:06.220] that is one of the most useful things which is yeah
[01:24:06.220 -> 01:24:11.280] Just just like make make make it go to the point where you've taken too much apex speed
[01:24:11.320 -> 01:24:16.980] So, you know, you know what it's like and actually when you go to the limit you realize oh no
[01:24:16.980 -> 01:24:23.640] I was leaving so much on the table and actually recently I had Kyle power and Alex van gene in my sim rig
[01:24:23.640 -> 01:24:26.720] so two guys who were very experienced at karting
[01:24:26.720 -> 01:24:34.560] and sim racing, and I noticed one amazing thing, which is I go into an apex, I get to the apex,
[01:24:34.560 -> 01:24:40.480] and then I point my wheel to the exit so I can drive to the exit, and I looked at these guys'
[01:24:40.480 -> 01:24:45.680] steering positions, and at the exit they're still cranked over trying to make
[01:24:45.680 -> 01:24:50.200] the corner whereas I was driving basically like I was going to the shops Matt and I was
[01:24:50.200 -> 01:24:55.680] like you know pointing to the exit and it's like no they're at that the very limit where
[01:24:55.680 -> 01:25:00.400] they're asking so much of the car by the time you get to the exit and I think just pedestrian
[01:25:00.400 -> 01:25:08.160] kind of drivers like us just we don't ask enough of the car in the sim or on the computer game.
[01:25:08.160 -> 01:25:09.920] Well, I love that, actually.
[01:25:09.920 -> 01:25:16.440] I was watching a lovely video on vehicle kinematics, and I think it was from Mike Law, who's got
[01:25:16.440 -> 01:25:23.960] a book out and whatnot, and just Formula F1 guy, and he basically said, look, and this
[01:25:23.960 -> 01:25:25.700] actually changed how I thought about
[01:25:25.700 -> 01:25:29.500] corners but he says look if you have a car that's well balanced on corner
[01:25:29.500 -> 01:25:36.020] entry it is going to understeer as you approach the apex and so you have to
[01:25:36.020 -> 01:25:43.020] keep more lock on or else or else you will go wide of your you will go wide of
[01:25:43.020 -> 01:25:48.240] your mark and I know we had this discussion earlier about steering wheels, and yours is better
[01:25:48.240 -> 01:25:49.240] than mine, Spanner.
[01:25:49.240 -> 01:25:51.200] Yes, much better.
[01:25:51.200 -> 01:25:56.920] But I got to drive Brad's steering wheel, which, nothing personal, is a little bit better
[01:25:56.920 -> 01:25:57.920] than yours.
[01:25:57.920 -> 01:25:58.920] It is, yes.
[01:25:58.920 -> 01:26:05.200] And no one's going to argue with that, because Brad is sort of mental when it comes to equipment. But what amazed me was,
[01:26:05.840 -> 01:26:11.360] have you both driven the Brazil in iRacing? Into the longbox, yes, of course.
[01:26:11.360 -> 01:26:16.720] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, there's like that three, that long, lazy thing in the middle of the
[01:26:16.720 -> 01:26:17.520] infield. Yes.
[01:26:18.160 -> 01:26:28.400] Right? So my first time driving that on Brad's much better wheel than mine, I was astonished to discover that
[01:26:28.400 -> 01:26:33.120] I could turn the wheel all the way to here without the car losing grip.
[01:26:33.120 -> 01:26:35.720] ALICE So, audio podcast, he's cranking it over quite
[01:26:35.720 -> 01:26:36.720] a lot.
[01:26:36.720 -> 01:26:39.080] JUSTIN DRENNAN The difference is, I was 45 degrees and I
[01:26:39.080 -> 01:26:42.440] discovered I could go almost 90 degrees without losing the car.
[01:26:42.440 -> 01:26:48.320] I never would have found that on my cheap wheel at home.
[01:26:49.120 -> 01:26:52.880] And I was quite embarrassed because Alex and Kyle, the first thing they said to me was,
[01:26:52.880 -> 01:26:57.520] oh, you're not steering enough. I'm like, no, don't tell me that my lap times,
[01:26:57.520 -> 01:27:00.640] I just needed to steer more. And that's horrible.
[01:27:01.200 -> 01:27:05.280] It's the same in the real world. Scott used to run a driver training
[01:27:07.040 -> 01:27:10.560] program where people would come, they would be in his car on his track, and he said this was
[01:27:10.560 -> 01:27:15.200] always the case. He had to get people to turn more. It's the same in the sim. In the sim course
[01:27:15.200 -> 01:27:20.480] you do with Driver 61 Sim Racing, they put you on that centripetal circuit. iRacing, they have just
[01:27:20.480 -> 01:27:24.720] a round circuit with lines on. It's not even a circuit, it's just a round piece of tarmac.
[01:27:24.720 -> 01:27:27.240] And it's going, steer to where you think you can turn,
[01:27:27.240 -> 01:27:29.160] and then just add 90 degrees more lock
[01:27:29.160 -> 01:27:30.520] and see what the car does.
[01:27:30.520 -> 01:27:32.640] And so there is often more you think there is.
[01:27:32.640 -> 01:27:34.960] It's almost like a phantom ceiling you're driving under,
[01:27:34.960 -> 01:27:36.680] thinking the limit's here, when actually,
[01:27:36.680 -> 01:27:39.360] if you drove the car better, and had it balanced better,
[01:27:39.360 -> 01:27:40.520] and had the weight transfer better,
[01:27:40.520 -> 01:27:42.500] you can raise that ceiling much higher.
[01:27:42.500 -> 01:27:44.520] And that's something I've found
[01:27:44.520 -> 01:27:50.320] in the way you have to drive a K-trim. I drive a lot of F3 cars and things like that in iRacing, and
[01:27:50.320 -> 01:27:55.120] obviously driving this K-trim is completely different. You've got H-pattern gearbox, and also
[01:27:55.120 -> 01:28:02.240] the car is very light. It wants to be on its nose, and you have to be very, very smooth. It's got 130
[01:28:02.240 -> 01:28:05.520] horsepower, so it's not got loads. You can't point it and stamp on the
[01:28:05.520 -> 01:28:09.840] throttle very max for Stappan to get out the corner. You've got to sweep in through the corner
[01:28:09.840 -> 01:28:14.720] and carry loads of momentum and then drag it out. And so you have to really adapt your driving style.
[01:28:14.720 -> 01:28:18.240] And again, that's come from sim racing. The ability to adapt your driving style to different
[01:28:18.240 -> 01:28:22.080] cars is something you learn over and over again by hopping in loads of random different cars.
[01:28:22.800 -> 01:28:29.200] And so, yeah, that's something I've learned that's come from sim racing, but that ability to change your driving style and to adapt to the car
[01:28:29.200 -> 01:28:36.480] you're in. So I have two questions. One is a quick follow-up. Is having driven now raced in real life,
[01:28:37.120 -> 01:28:43.280] when you go back to the sim, do you find that has changed your steering? Because we were
[01:28:43.280 -> 01:28:45.840] specifically talking about steering and the other
[01:28:45.840 -> 01:28:51.360] thing is and this is just me being a bit cheeky i am definitely someone who likes if i have the time
[01:28:51.920 -> 01:28:59.280] to fool around with my setup do you did you find the caterum setup matched what you liked in a car
[01:28:59.280 -> 01:29:06.080] and if not like what kind of a challenge was it to adapt? So starting with the setup, yes.
[01:29:06.080 -> 01:29:08.760] I drive cars with very rearward brake bias.
[01:29:08.760 -> 01:29:09.920] I like them very on the nose.
[01:29:09.920 -> 01:29:12.320] I like them very oversteery.
[01:29:12.320 -> 01:29:13.360] And the opposite.
[01:29:13.360 -> 01:29:14.600] Particularly the F3 car.
[01:29:14.600 -> 01:29:17.440] Give me some middle-aged understeer every time, Callum.
[01:29:17.440 -> 01:29:17.960] Oh, really?
[01:29:17.960 -> 01:29:18.460] Yeah.
[01:29:18.460 -> 01:29:18.960] No, no, no.
[01:29:18.960 -> 01:29:20.040] I don't like that.
[01:29:20.040 -> 01:29:22.440] I like to turn it in, like arriving on the brakes
[01:29:22.440 -> 01:29:25.160] quite hard, but pivoting the car very early,
[01:29:25.160 -> 01:29:27.000] and particularly in that F3 car, and then
[01:29:27.000 -> 01:29:28.660] getting on the throttle on the way out.
[01:29:28.660 -> 01:29:31.080] And I drive this, I think, oh, maybe I
[01:29:31.080 -> 01:29:32.120] shouldn't give this away.
[01:29:32.120 -> 01:29:35.080] But my Caterham, I've set it up with a lot of rake,
[01:29:35.080 -> 01:29:38.160] I think a lot more than everyone else is running.
[01:29:38.160 -> 01:29:40.400] And so you've got a lot more weight on the nose.
[01:29:40.400 -> 01:29:42.120] You can turn in a bit more aggressively.
[01:29:42.120 -> 01:29:44.280] It does mean you can lose the rear in braking,
[01:29:44.280 -> 01:29:47.860] and I've had that a couple of times, where you get caught out
[01:29:47.860 -> 01:29:48.360] by it.
[01:29:48.360 -> 01:29:50.160] But it means you don't get the understeer on exit
[01:29:50.160 -> 01:29:51.480] that everyone else is getting.
[01:29:51.480 -> 01:29:53.840] So the setup does reflect it.
[01:29:53.840 -> 01:29:56.000] The Caterham, you haven't got a brake bias knob.
[01:29:56.000 -> 01:29:58.760] So that's been something that's been tricky to play with.
[01:29:58.760 -> 01:30:00.520] You have to pick one.
[01:30:00.520 -> 01:30:01.480] No, no, no.
[01:30:01.480 -> 01:30:02.840] There just isn't one.
[01:30:02.840 -> 01:30:04.720] So you get what you're given.
[01:30:04.720 -> 01:30:05.800] But I have found you can
[01:30:05.800 -> 01:30:10.480] upgrade the rear pads. So I've taken out the pads that was in it and put grippier pads
[01:30:10.480 -> 01:30:12.600] in and then you can make it a rear bias.
[01:30:12.600 -> 01:30:17.000] So you want to get the back end out by having a bit more grip at the rear?
[01:30:17.000 -> 01:30:18.000] Yes.
[01:30:18.000 -> 01:30:19.000] Yeah.
[01:30:19.000 -> 01:30:20.000] Yes.
[01:30:20.000 -> 01:30:25.600] Look, all of this is so interesting because the fact that you could go from being a mediocre, and we keep
[01:30:25.600 -> 01:30:30.180] saying that as an insult, and then go to a Cateham series and do well because you stuck
[01:30:30.180 -> 01:30:35.340] it on pole straight away, which is a fantastic indictment of the fact that you're doing it
[01:30:35.340 -> 01:30:41.200] kind of week in, week out as a sim racer. Most people kind of frame it as, oh, can a
[01:30:41.200 -> 01:30:46.240] sim racer actually get out on track and be good? Whereas really we should
[01:30:46.240 -> 01:30:53.200] be talking about how much of an advantage is sim racing in a decent bit of kit when
[01:30:53.200 -> 01:30:58.880] you get onto real racing, how much of an advantage is that over people who are purely real life
[01:30:58.880 -> 01:31:02.720] racers? So you get into that Caterham series, you're probably racing against people who
[01:31:02.720 -> 01:31:07.360] are only physical racers, who don't have thousands of hours
[01:31:07.360 -> 01:31:09.860] of wasting their life on iRacing.
[01:31:09.860 -> 01:31:13.120] I will say, there are lots of drivers
[01:31:13.120 -> 01:31:15.640] in the championship I'm running
[01:31:15.640 -> 01:31:19.100] who have had a previous car, a previous Caterham,
[01:31:19.100 -> 01:31:21.560] and have done a year of testing,
[01:31:21.560 -> 01:31:29.480] and being coached, and being at tracks every weekend. And so they have got, they might have a similar level of experience.
[01:31:29.880 -> 01:31:33.440] But I think the thing that sim racing gives you is it's race environment.
[01:31:33.440 -> 01:31:36.640] Every time the number of overtakes, your average sim racer has done
[01:31:36.640 -> 01:31:38.960] will far outweigh any amateur driver.
[01:31:39.120 -> 01:31:42.000] You could probably look at Ferrari challenge drivers and
[01:31:42.080 -> 01:31:43.720] they've done fewer overtakes.
[01:31:43.720 -> 01:31:45.120] There've been fewer setup changes. they've made fewer setup changes,
[01:31:45.120 -> 01:31:47.040] they've done fewer different types of racing
[01:31:47.040 -> 01:31:49.320] than just your average sim racer.
[01:31:49.320 -> 01:31:52.320] So it is just, you're doing it lots.
[01:31:52.320 -> 01:31:53.680] And it's very similar.
[01:31:53.680 -> 01:31:54.780] What was Scott's opinion on it?
[01:31:54.780 -> 01:31:56.520] Because I know Brad Philpott,
[01:31:56.520 -> 01:31:59.440] who has helped me cheat at many karting events,
[01:32:00.320 -> 01:32:04.080] he will treat, he was Nordschleife champion,
[01:32:04.080 -> 01:32:08.680] a 24- hour class champion, and he says that he will be
[01:32:08.680 -> 01:32:13.000] much more prepared for an event if he can do it in the sim.
[01:32:13.000 -> 01:32:15.220] What was Scott's opinion on that?
[01:32:16.360 -> 01:32:20.000] So for Scott's racing, he will prep in the sim,
[01:32:20.000 -> 01:32:23.600] but I think he backs his ability to be quick
[01:32:23.600 -> 01:32:27.960] in a car on the day, to get quick quicker than most other people
[01:32:27.960 -> 01:32:31.120] and to be good in changing conditions.
[01:32:31.120 -> 01:32:32.120] So I think there's a lot of that.
[01:32:32.120 -> 01:32:33.560] And obviously most of his racing was done
[01:32:33.560 -> 01:32:36.360] before Sims were really good.
[01:32:36.360 -> 01:32:37.920] And so, you know, most of his,
[01:32:37.920 -> 01:32:40.200] he drove Formula One cars at 16 years old
[01:32:40.200 -> 01:32:43.580] and so they didn't have models and tracks and things then.
[01:32:43.580 -> 01:32:44.420] So there's that.
[01:32:44.420 -> 01:32:49.840] But then I think he was shocked when I first got in a car that I was happy with it moving around. I kind of
[01:32:50.400 -> 01:32:53.760] knew how to react to a car moving around. He was as shocked as I was.
[01:32:53.760 -> 01:32:58.160] Yeah, but why? There's no... All the hand movements and feet movements are the same,
[01:32:58.160 -> 01:33:07.120] but you shouldn't be prepared for the g-force. You shouldn't be prepared for the fear Factor so I will go on to a kart track say like but more
[01:33:07.440 -> 01:33:13.760] And they have a sweeping downhill section and i'm terrified and even though in that like in that particular event
[01:33:14.160 -> 01:33:16.960] I actually I finished I think fifth I beat kyle
[01:33:17.200 -> 01:33:22.960] I beat kyle in that event by bullying him a lot and he was not happy. He yelled at me quite a bit
[01:33:23.280 -> 01:33:26.240] Um, I put him on the grass. But I finished fifth,
[01:33:26.240 -> 01:33:31.520] I think, in that event. But yeah, in the downhill bit where you're flat out left, right into a hard
[01:33:31.520 -> 01:33:36.880] braking zone, every lap, so like maybe like 40 times over the course of the day, I was going,
[01:33:36.880 -> 01:33:43.200] ah, I'm too old. I have too many responsibilities to die like this. And like every time I was like,
[01:33:43.200 -> 01:33:47.360] that wall's going to kill me. How did you deal with that real world danger?
[01:33:47.920 -> 01:33:51.720] Um, I was really scared.
[01:33:51.880 -> 01:33:52.240] Right.
[01:33:52.240 -> 01:33:52.560] Good.
[01:33:52.560 -> 01:33:53.320] At Brands Hatch.
[01:33:53.320 -> 01:33:54.720] Well, I'm glad. So you're saying then.
[01:33:54.960 -> 01:34:01.600] And you're going around Paddock Hill Bend and you're like, my sim racer says, I want to be out there on the curb, you know, hanging it out, you know, using all of the track.
[01:34:01.840 -> 01:34:03.440] And my brain was going, absolutely not.
[01:34:03.440 -> 01:34:04.120] Absolutely not.
[01:34:04.320 -> 01:34:06.380] I then had a coach who was going,
[01:34:06.380 -> 01:34:08.700] look, you can gain a second by doing this.
[01:34:08.700 -> 01:34:10.300] And I'll get there and I'll be like,
[01:34:10.300 -> 01:34:11.480] oh, I know I can break here,
[01:34:11.480 -> 01:34:13.500] but I'm going to break a hundred yards earlier.
[01:34:13.500 -> 01:34:15.060] And so there really was that fear.
[01:34:15.060 -> 01:34:17.100] But a lot of it was just doing laps
[01:34:17.100 -> 01:34:19.260] and learning to trust the car.
[01:34:19.260 -> 01:34:21.060] And so it was kind of that.
[01:34:21.060 -> 01:34:23.000] And then obviously the physicality you mentioned,
[01:34:23.000 -> 01:34:28.400] like even in a KTM that pulls, I don't know, 1.3, 1.5 G around a corner, which is nothing compared to an F1 car,
[01:34:28.800 -> 01:34:33.200] it's a lot of load on you and the brake pedal you have to really stamp on and all of that.
[01:34:33.200 -> 01:34:38.160] So multiply that up to a really, really quick car and it must be very, very different.
[01:34:38.160 -> 01:34:43.520] How long before it was normal, that fear and that G-force and that trust in the car?
[01:34:45.320 -> 01:34:47.080] 30 laps?
[01:34:47.080 -> 01:34:47.920] It's not a lot.
[01:34:47.920 -> 01:34:48.740] A day and a bit.
[01:34:48.740 -> 01:34:49.580] It's not a lot.
[01:34:49.580 -> 01:34:51.320] Can we put a monetary figure on that?
[01:34:51.320 -> 01:34:52.720] Like, okay, oh no.
[01:34:52.720 -> 01:34:56.000] I know that Caterham obviously would encourage people
[01:34:56.000 -> 01:34:57.720] to join their series.
[01:34:57.720 -> 01:34:59.460] If we wanna be vague,
[01:34:59.460 -> 01:35:01.720] I looked at the prices of series like that
[01:35:01.720 -> 01:35:04.560] and like, you know, series where you can just jump in
[01:35:04.560 -> 01:35:08.480] and say a Peugeot 206, strip out the seats and race competitively.
[01:35:09.000 -> 01:35:10.720] It's actually not insane.
[01:35:10.920 -> 01:35:17.360] I think we're talking about an obsessive golf season and a very bottom level
[01:35:17.760 -> 01:35:21.200] sports car, you know, like a production car series.
[01:35:21.560 -> 01:35:25.940] They're sort of comparable, but you get less time in your car,
[01:35:25.940 -> 01:35:27.500] but you could do it.
[01:35:27.500 -> 01:35:29.280] I look at my children and I go,
[01:35:29.280 -> 01:35:31.420] I should probably prioritize you,
[01:35:31.420 -> 01:35:32.800] but it's not insane.
[01:35:32.800 -> 01:35:34.920] Like you can go club racing.
[01:35:34.920 -> 01:35:36.740] So that Bad Obsession Motorsport,
[01:35:36.740 -> 01:35:39.120] they did this City Car Cup.
[01:35:39.120 -> 01:35:40.800] And I think their budget,
[01:35:40.800 -> 01:35:42.320] their money at the end of the year
[01:35:42.320 -> 01:35:44.320] was about 14,000 with the car.
[01:35:44.320 -> 01:35:45.760] So they bought the car, stripped it out, put year was about 14,000 with the car. So they bought
[01:35:45.760 -> 01:35:50.240] the car, stripped it out, put the cage in it, did all of that. And so it's somewhere
[01:35:50.240 -> 01:35:53.180] around there. I think it might've been a little bit more actually, by the time you've done
[01:35:53.180 -> 01:35:57.700] the number of races. The Caterham series is excellent because you get an incredible road
[01:35:57.700 -> 01:36:01.860] car as well, and you get to keep the car. I think it's just over 30,000 pounds.
[01:36:01.860 -> 01:36:05.000] And you can get an MOT and you can drive that on the road. Yeah, yeah.
[01:36:05.000 -> 01:36:07.760] So it's a road car, I drive it to all the events.
[01:36:07.760 -> 01:36:13.720] And then you get the series, you know, the tyres, the licence, everything with it to
[01:36:13.720 -> 01:36:14.720] then go and race it.
[01:36:14.720 -> 01:36:17.360] And obviously all your entry and everything like that.
[01:36:17.360 -> 01:36:22.480] Okay, now I don't want to give away the game too much, but it's very clear Spanners has
[01:36:22.480 -> 01:36:27.760] had you on because people constantly complain when we make iRacing references when we're talking about Formula One.
[01:36:27.760 -> 01:36:33.640] And this is clear evidence that we're not entirely wrong to do so. But,
[01:36:33.640 -> 01:36:39.200] and I'm not going to say this is entirely based on my own personal experience going
[01:36:39.200 -> 01:36:46.000] from a sim to real life in a track, but yeah, it is. Was there anything that you had learned in the sim
[01:36:46.000 -> 01:36:49.000] that was actually crossing you up in real life
[01:36:49.000 -> 01:36:52.000] that you had to unlearn?
[01:36:52.000 -> 01:36:54.000] It's probably just bad habits I had
[01:36:54.000 -> 01:36:56.000] that I would have had to fix anyway.
[01:36:56.000 -> 01:36:58.000] So a lot of it, I was arriving to the apex
[01:36:58.000 -> 01:37:00.000] with way too much brake pressure,
[01:37:00.000 -> 01:37:01.000] so it meant that I was losing the rear,
[01:37:01.000 -> 01:37:02.000] and Scott was like, get off the way,
[01:37:02.000 -> 01:37:04.000] get on the brakes, get on the throttle
[01:37:04.000 -> 01:37:05.400] to move the weight back, and so there was those bad habits. So I'd say that was losing the rear. And Scott was like, get off the way, get on the brakes, get on the throttle to move the weight back.
[01:37:05.400 -> 01:37:08.080] And so there was those bad habits.
[01:37:08.080 -> 01:37:10.160] So I'd say that was a lot of it.
[01:37:10.160 -> 01:37:12.400] I can't believe you get lots of moaning.
[01:37:12.400 -> 01:37:14.840] Like, it's very, very similar.
[01:37:14.840 -> 01:37:17.600] And I know that, I know those people
[01:37:17.600 -> 01:37:19.480] that maybe don't believe in it,
[01:37:19.480 -> 01:37:21.300] maybe haven't tried it enough.
[01:37:22.160 -> 01:37:24.440] But if you look at people like James Baldwin,
[01:37:24.440 -> 01:37:26.400] who is an incredible sports car
[01:37:26.400 -> 01:37:30.960] driver, unfortunately out of a seat, but you've got that, you've got Basic Ali who's a sim racer
[01:37:30.960 -> 01:37:35.520] who's doing a similar thing to me this year in Time Attack, and then you know there are lots and
[01:37:35.520 -> 01:37:41.200] lots of sim racers who have done very very well and there are also real racers who do very well
[01:37:41.200 -> 01:37:47.760] in sim racing. I think you can't really argue with that. I think it's part of the same broad brush of the sport, so I do wish it would get a
[01:37:47.760 -> 01:37:54.240] bit more respect, but look, I'm not pretending I'm anything like even a club racer standard,
[01:37:54.240 -> 01:38:00.340] but I used to play football a lot, and I played regimental football, I played core football,
[01:38:00.340 -> 01:38:05.440] but that is nowhere near even good Saturday League football. So there's like pub football
[01:38:05.440 -> 01:38:10.400] generally on a Saturday, that's how it used to always be. Sorry, pub football on a Sunday and
[01:38:10.400 -> 01:38:15.120] like league football on a Saturday. And I would sometimes step up if I had a friend who needed
[01:38:15.120 -> 01:38:20.000] someone for a Saturday League and you go, oh my God, I'm completely outclassed. But that doesn't
[01:38:20.000 -> 01:38:25.600] like negate my experience in the pub leagues. The pub leagues are incredibly competitive as well,
[01:38:26.160 -> 01:38:32.640] but that doesn't translate into racing. So a lot of motorsport fans don't think it's accessible
[01:38:33.200 -> 01:38:37.120] to get into motorsport, but there's so many things. I mean, even from, I would say,
[01:38:37.680 -> 01:38:46.000] get the cheapest Formula One game from 2019. And what's the next race? Imola. Okay, so get F1 2019. I'm not getting
[01:38:46.000 -> 01:38:51.920] a commission from this, I should be. But when was the first race that Imola came back? 2020.
[01:38:51.920 -> 01:38:58.480] So get F1 2020 where there's Imola. And honestly, my brother-in-law followed this advice for Bahrain,
[01:38:58.480 -> 01:39:04.320] go and just do with a joypad on an old Xbox and do Imola. And then when you watch the race,
[01:39:05.240 -> 01:39:09.520] joypad on an old Xbox and do Imola and then when you watch the race that Grand Prix will come to life for you because you will have driven around it
[01:39:09.520 -> 01:39:14.840] and you will understand oh man you really have to you it's it's not that
[01:39:14.840 -> 01:39:19.120] hard a braking zone into turn one you're really setting yourself up into turn two
[01:39:19.120 -> 01:39:24.680] the hairpin up the hill is absolutely brutal going into Acquaminerale is a
[01:39:24.680 -> 01:39:25.640] nightmare because
[01:39:25.640 -> 01:39:29.900] you're having to lift and brake to set yourself up for a hard braking zone, but you've got
[01:39:29.900 -> 01:39:34.600] steering lock on, so you're going to lose it into Acquaminerale. And then the chicane?
[01:39:34.600 -> 01:39:40.880] Do they still use the chicane for the F1 races? At the end? Horrible. Like a pointlessly horrible,
[01:39:40.880 -> 01:39:45.480] torturous chicane. Just make that a straight. But your enjoyment of the F1 race
[01:39:45.480 -> 01:39:50.080] will be a thousand percent increased just by doing that. Now take that into an F3 car
[01:39:50.080 -> 01:39:56.520] on iRacing on a sim rig and that triples. You know, more than triples. You know, it
[01:39:56.520 -> 01:40:01.040] really makes you appreciate it. And I just think that most of sport fans just miss out
[01:40:01.040 -> 01:40:06.240] because they think it's not accessible. even to the point that just find your
[01:40:06.240 -> 01:40:13.200] local rubbish indoor track and just pay 30 quid generally, 30 quid, 15 minute session, you'll be
[01:40:13.200 -> 01:40:17.920] hooked. You'll go and do it, you go oh that's amazing, I wish I'd booked two sessions and then
[01:40:17.920 -> 01:40:23.200] the next time you'll book two sessions. So Callum, I'm preaching to the converted with you, but people
[01:40:23.200 -> 01:40:26.560] just, motorsport fans just need to get involved in racing.
[01:40:27.040 -> 01:40:31.440] In my eyes, it's really quite simple. There is either sim racing is zero percent
[01:40:31.920 -> 01:40:37.040] correlated with the real racing or it's, you know, it's somewhere between zero percent and a hundred percent, right?
[01:40:37.600 -> 01:40:38.240] Like, you wouldn't-
[01:40:38.240 -> 01:40:39.760] Everything is that to be fair, Callum.
[01:40:40.400 -> 01:40:42.000] But you wouldn't say,
[01:40:42.000 -> 01:40:45.080] like, if you've got Cristiano Ronaldo there, and then you've got
[01:40:45.080 -> 01:40:49.160] an eSports FIFA player, and he goes, oh yeah, I do that in FIFA, you go, oh, come on, I
[01:40:49.160 -> 01:40:50.860] mean, they're very, very different.
[01:40:50.860 -> 01:40:53.180] And so that's towards the lower end.
[01:40:53.180 -> 01:40:56.600] And then you also haven't got, you know, it's not 100%.
[01:40:56.600 -> 01:40:57.600] So a lot of people say it's not 100%.
[01:40:57.600 -> 01:40:58.600] Therefore, it's rubbish.
[01:40:58.600 -> 01:40:59.600] Ignore it.
[01:40:59.600 -> 01:41:03.640] Ignoring the fact that karting isn't like Formula One, either.
[01:41:03.640 -> 01:41:04.760] It's not 100%.
[01:41:04.760 -> 01:41:05.120] You're doing it in the
[01:41:05.120 -> 01:41:11.680] real life. You feel G-forces and it's similar, but it's not there. And so I see sim racing as being
[01:41:11.680 -> 01:41:17.520] 65 to 75% of what you can learn. You can't learn everything there. You can learn a lot doing it.
[01:41:17.520 -> 01:41:22.560] And I think it will give you a big advantage when you come to racing in real life. In that first
[01:41:22.560 -> 01:41:25.760] race, I'm going down the straight, there's a massive
[01:41:25.760 -> 01:41:31.760] tow in the catering. And so I've got a whole load behind me thinking, okay, they're going
[01:41:31.760 -> 01:41:34.760] to be slipstreaming me up here, I need to be defending over to this side, but I don't
[01:41:34.760 -> 01:41:38.000] want to give away too much on the entry, so I'm going to cover here. All of that I've
[01:41:38.000 -> 01:41:45.320] thought at Le Mans in a GT car in iRacing. And so it comes easier the next time.
[01:41:45.320 -> 01:41:47.240] And same in that move at turn one,
[01:41:47.240 -> 01:41:49.920] I did that because I've done that lots in an F3 car.
[01:41:49.920 -> 01:41:51.840] I know it's different, but the principles are the same.
[01:41:51.840 -> 01:41:53.560] So I'm probably not gonna do what you've done
[01:41:53.560 -> 01:41:56.760] because well, I'm kind of old and scared now.
[01:41:56.760 -> 01:42:00.480] And all my money goes to just making smaller humans
[01:42:00.480 -> 01:42:03.440] slightly bigger progressively over time.
[01:42:03.440 -> 01:42:05.540] But I am heartened that you were able
[01:42:05.540 -> 01:42:07.920] to have a really positive racing experience,
[01:42:07.920 -> 01:42:10.640] primarily from the skills you've learned from sim racing.
[01:42:10.640 -> 01:42:12.760] And Matt, we'll have to include that video
[01:42:12.760 -> 01:42:17.760] that we shared in our WhatsApp of Scott and Callum
[01:42:18.080 -> 01:42:20.280] and their adventures from sim racing
[01:42:20.280 -> 01:42:22.080] into the Caterham series.
[01:42:22.080 -> 01:42:23.280] It's such a good video.
[01:42:23.280 -> 01:42:25.480] Like you must go into the show notes below,
[01:42:25.480 -> 01:42:27.840] follow Callum and subscribe to their channel
[01:42:27.840 -> 01:42:30.120] and watch this specific video.
[01:42:30.120 -> 01:42:33.760] Is there gonna be more videos of your Caterham adventures?
[01:42:33.760 -> 01:42:36.280] Absolutely, so that one was on Driver 61
[01:42:36.280 -> 01:42:37.560] named F1 Audience.
[01:42:37.560 -> 01:42:39.880] We also have the build, the full build video,
[01:42:39.880 -> 01:42:42.160] not all 24 hours, it's cut down a bit,
[01:42:42.160 -> 01:42:43.280] on the Overdrive channel.
[01:42:43.280 -> 01:42:44.240] And so there's more coming there.
[01:42:44.240 -> 01:42:47.440] So, but a lot of it is on socials as well, so follow us.
[01:42:47.440 -> 01:42:49.640] We're at followoverdrive on Instagram,
[01:42:49.640 -> 01:42:51.480] and so I'm posting a lot there.
[01:42:51.480 -> 01:42:53.760] And then this weekend, actually, I'm racing at Croft,
[01:42:53.760 -> 01:42:56.080] and that is gonna be live streamed,
[01:42:56.080 -> 01:42:57.800] and that'll be on the Caterham YouTube channel.
[01:42:57.800 -> 01:43:01.280] So if you wanna watch that, please do,
[01:43:01.280 -> 01:43:03.520] and I'll post when that's gonna be,
[01:43:03.520 -> 01:43:05.360] so you can watch it if you want to. Okay, well, share that link with us, and we'll make sure that's going to be so you can so you can watch it if you want
[01:43:05.360 -> 01:43:09.320] Okay, we'll share that link with us and we'll make sure that is the top link in our show notes
[01:43:09.320 -> 01:43:14.380] So go make sure you go and follow Calum live and like me be just incredibly
[01:43:14.900 -> 01:43:19.880] Incredibly jealous and look I know since the tyre talk the last half an hour has just been almost
[01:43:20.560 -> 01:43:25.400] Evangelical, but I am on a mission. I'm on a mission to say to people just turn a
[01:43:25.400 -> 01:43:29.280] wheel. I don't care if it's a joypad wheel, I don't care if it's a local go
[01:43:29.280 -> 01:43:34.140] kart track, you know, just go and do something. Stick a helmet on, pull the
[01:43:34.140 -> 01:43:40.120] visor down, real or virtual, and go racing. It will add to your F1 experience. Go and
[01:43:40.120 -> 01:43:44.960] follow Callum, go and follow MattPT55 on Twitter, go and follow SpannersReady, I'm
[01:43:44.960 -> 01:43:46.080] the best one, and make sure youPT55 on Twitter, go and follow SpannersReady, I'm the best one,
[01:43:46.080 -> 01:43:51.920] and make sure you tune in because on Tuesday we're going to have Uncle Joe joining us, and I believe
[01:43:51.920 -> 01:43:58.880] I am going to be joining Tomo for the Imola live watch-along on YouTube, so I'll make sure that
[01:43:58.880 -> 01:44:05.040] we get a link in for that somewhere on the social media. That's right, I'm gonna watch Formula One with people
[01:44:05.040 -> 01:44:11.440] in real life and I'm actually nervous because I am not the person that maybe you think I am
[01:44:12.000 -> 01:44:17.200] when the F1 racing is live. So I'm undecided as to whether I'm going to sit there all reserved
[01:44:17.200 -> 01:44:22.160] and pretend I'm a normal human being or whether I'm going to let loose and be full spanners
[01:44:22.160 -> 01:44:32.120] whilst I'm watching that Imola race watch along live. But follow at a Mist Apex F1 or join our Facebook group by searching for Mist
[01:44:32.120 -> 01:44:38.000] Apex podcast on Facebook. And you can be a patron as well. Patreon.com forward slash
[01:44:38.000 -> 01:44:43.720] Mist Apex. I'll see you on Tuesday with Joe or on Sunday for our Imola race review. Until
[01:44:43.720 -> 01:44:46.280] then work hard, be kind and have fun.
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