Season Review: The Red Bulls

Spanners and Trumpets are joined by  Kyle ‘Edgy’ Power and professional race car driver Bradley Philpot as they bite the bitterballen and approach the end of the 2023 season review. From the remarkable Red Bull to the amiable Alpha Tauris to the adroit Alpines no canteen side dish goes uneaten in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast.

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Spanners Ready Spanners���� (@SpannersReady)

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Matt Trumpets mattpt55 (@mattpt55)

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Starting from scratch as an iRacing Rookie | Episode 1

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**Season Review: Red Bull and Its Dominance**

* **Red Bull's Unparalleled Success:**
* The team's dominance in the 2023 season was remarkable, with Max Verstappen securing 15 wins and Sergio Perez adding 3 victories.
* Verstappen's performance was particularly impressive, as he often had a significant gap over his competitors.
* Red Bull's success can be attributed to a combination of factors, including their strong car design, Verstappen's exceptional driving skills, and the team's overall operational efficiency.

* **Technical Analysis:**
* Red Bull's car was meticulously designed and optimized, resulting in exceptional performance and reliability.
* The team's correlation between simulation data and real-world performance was highly accurate, allowing them to make effective updates and improvements throughout the season.
* Red Bull's dominance was not solely due to their car's initial design; they continued to develop and refine the car throughout the season, maintaining their advantage over the competition.

* **Verstappen's Driving Prowess:**
* Verstappen's exceptional talent and skill were crucial factors in Red Bull's success.
* His ability to extract the maximum potential from the car, combined with his aggressive driving style, often resulted in dominant performances.
* Verstappen's consistency and ability to avoid costly mistakes were also key factors in his championship victory.

* **Perez's Struggles:**
* Despite Red Bull's overall success, Sergio Perez had a challenging season, often struggling to match Verstappen's pace.
* Perez's difficulties may have been due to the car's specific characteristics, which seemed to favor Verstappen's driving style.
* The Mexican driver's lack of adaptability to the car's unique handling characteristics may have contributed to his underwhelming performances.

* **Looking Ahead to 2024:**
* Red Bull's dominance in 2023 has raised questions about the competitiveness of the upcoming season.
* While Red Bull is expected to remain strong, other teams, such as Ferrari and Mercedes, are expected to make significant improvements.
* The development freeze on certain car components may limit Red Bull's ability to maintain their current level of dominance.

* **Conclusion:**
* Red Bull's 2023 season was a resounding success, with the team securing both the Drivers' and Constructors' Championships.
* The team's dominance was the result of a combination of factors, including their exceptional car design, Verstappen's driving skills, and their operational efficiency.
* While Red Bull is expected to remain competitive in 2024, other teams are expected to challenge their supremacy, making the upcoming season highly anticipated. **Podcast Summary: Missed Apex Podcast - Season Review Part 2**

**Hosts:**

* Matt Trumpets (@mattpt55)
* Spanners (@SpannersReady)
* Kyle Power (@KylePowerF1)
* Bradley Philpot (@BradleyPhilpot)

**Key Points:**

* **Red Bull Dominance:**
* The podcast discusses the remarkable dominance of Red Bull Racing in the 2023 Formula One season.
* Max Verstappen's exceptional performance and the team's overall strength contributed to their success.
* The question arises whether Verstappen's dominance is due to his skill or the car's superiority.
* The panel suggests that it is a combination of both factors, with Verstappen maximizing the potential of the dominant Red Bull car.
* The lack of competition in Formula One is also seen as a contributing factor to Red Bull's dominance.

* **Sergio Perez's Role:**
* The podcast addresses Sergio Perez's position as the second driver at Red Bull.
* Perez's struggles to match Verstappen's pace and his occasional errors are discussed.
* The panel considers the possibility that Perez has accepted his role as a supporting driver and is content with it.
* The importance of having a clear number one and number two driver structure in a championship-contending team is highlighted.

* **AlphaTauri's Future:**
* The recent announcement of Scuderia AlphaTauri RB's name change sparks speculation about the team's future.
* The panel discusses the potential implications of AlphaTauri becoming a de facto B team to Red Bull.
* The possibility of AlphaTauri receiving more Red Bull parts and technical assistance is examined.
* The question arises whether AlphaTauri can become a genuine championship contender with these changes.
* The challenges and limitations faced by AlphaTauri, despite having access to Red Bull's resources, are acknowledged.

* **Impact of Drivers on Car Performance:**
* The podcast brings up the topic of drivers who may have deserved better cars or teammates.
* Examples of drivers like Fernando Alonso, Nico Hulkenberg, and Kevin Magnussen are mentioned.
* The panel emphasizes the importance of driver skill and team operations in maximizing car performance.
* The influence of driver talent on a car's potential success is debated.

**Overall Takeaway:**

The podcast delves into the intricacies of Formula One team dynamics, driver performances, and the impact of car superiority on race outcomes. It raises thought-provoking questions about the factors contributing to a team's success and the role of individual drivers in maximizing car potential. Sure, here is a summary of the podcast episode transcript:

**Episode Overview:**

The podcast episode titled "Missed Apex Podcast: Spanners and Trumpets are joined by Kyle 'Edgy' Power and professional race car driver Bradley Philpot" discusses the 2023 Formula One season, focusing on teams like Red Bull, Alpha Tauri, and Alpine. The hosts and guests analyze driver performances, team dynamics, technical insights, and controversies surrounding the sport.

**Key Points:**

* **Red Bull's Dominance:**
* Red Bull had a remarkable season, consistently securing podium positions and winning races.
* The team's success is attributed to a combination of factors, including a strong car, skilled drivers, and effective team management.
* The drivers, Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez, showcased exceptional talent and contributed to the team's achievements.

* **Alpha Tauri's Progress:**
* Alpha Tauri made significant improvements compared to previous seasons, demonstrating a competitive edge in the midfield.
* Yuki Tsunoda and Pierre Gasly delivered solid performances, highlighting the team's potential for further growth.
* The team's technical collaboration with Red Bull is seen as a contributing factor to their success.

* **Alpine's Struggles:**
* Alpine faced challenges throughout the season, failing to meet expectations and secure consistent results.
* The team experienced driver changes, technical issues, and a lack of stability in leadership, hindering their progress.
* Despite these difficulties, Fernando Alonso and Esteban Ocon showcased their skills in certain races, demonstrating the team's potential.

* **Driver Performance Analysis:**
* Yuki Tsunoda's performance is evaluated, with discussions about his strengths and areas for improvement.
* Daniel Ricciardo's move to McLaren is analyzed, considering his struggles to adapt to the car and the team's overall performance.
* The impact of Liam Lawson's arrival at Alpha Tauri on Tsunoda's performance is examined.

* **Collaboration and Controversy:**
* The collaboration between Red Bull and Alpha Tauri is questioned, with discussions about potential information sharing and the implications for fair competition.
* The hosts debate the extent to which such collaboration is permissible within the regulations and its impact on the sport's integrity.

**Overall:**

The podcast episode provides an in-depth analysis of the 2023 Formula One season, focusing on the performances of Red Bull, Alpha Tauri, and Alpine. The hosts and guests offer insights into driver dynamics, team strategies, technical aspects, and controversies surrounding the sport, engaging listeners with their expert perspectives and engaging discussions. ## 2023 Formula One Season Review: Alpine F1 Team

### Introduction:
The Missed Apex podcast assembles a panel of experts, including Kyle 'Edgy' Power and professional race car driver Bradley Philpot, to delve into the intricacies of the 2023 Formula One season. The discussion centers around the performance of the Alpine F1 Team, analyzing their strengths, weaknesses, and prospects for the upcoming season.

### Alpine F1 Team's Performance in 2023:
- Despite a promising start to the season, Alpine F1 Team faced numerous challenges throughout the year.
- The team's overall results were underwhelming, with both drivers, Esteban Ocon and Pierre Gasly, failing to secure consistent podium finishes.
- A significant factor contributing to Alpine's struggles was the lack of power from their Renault power unit, which was estimated to be 20-30 horsepower behind the leading manufacturers.
- The team's management also faced criticism for its handling of driver relations and its inability to create a stable and harmonious environment within the team.

### Power Unit Deficit:
- The Renault power unit has been a persistent issue for the Alpine F1 Team, hindering their performance and limiting their ability to compete with the top teams.
- The deficit in horsepower compared to other manufacturers has resulted in the team losing valuable time on straights and struggling to overtake other cars.
- Despite lobbying efforts, Alpine has been unable to secure a rule change that would allow them to catch up to the leading power unit manufacturers.

### Management and Driver Relations:
- Alpine F1 Team's management has been under scrutiny for its handling of driver relations, particularly the relationship between Ocon and Gasly.
- The two drivers were closely matched in terms of performance, but their relationship was reportedly strained, leading to a lack of team cohesion and collaboration.
- The team's management was criticized for failing to foster a positive and supportive environment, which may have contributed to the drivers' struggles.

### Outlook for the 2024 Season:
- The panel expressed concerns about Alpine F1 Team's prospects for the 2024 season, given the ongoing issues with the Renault power unit and the lack of stability within the team.
- They emphasized the need for Alpine to address these problems and make significant improvements if they want to challenge for the top positions in the championship.
- The team's future may also depend on its ability to secure new investment or partnerships that can provide the resources and expertise needed to compete at the highest level.

### Conclusion:
The 2023 season was a challenging one for the Alpine F1 Team, with a combination of factors contributing to their underwhelming performance. The team's power unit deficit, management issues, and driver relations all played a role in their struggles. As the team looks ahead to the 2024 season, they will need to address these problems and make significant improvements if they want to challenge for the top positions in the championship. In this episode of the Missed Apex Podcast, the hosts engage in a lively discussion about the 2023 Formula One season, delving into the remarkable performances of Red Bull, the consistent efforts of Alpha Tauri, and the impressive showings of Alpine. They analyze the impact of each team's strategies, driver dynamics, and car capabilities, highlighting key moments and controversies that shaped the season.

**Key Insights and Perspectives:**

* **Red Bull's Dominance:** The hosts emphasize Red Bull's exceptional performance throughout the season, attributing their success to a combination of factors, including Max Verstappen's exceptional driving skills, the team's strategic prowess, and the reliability of their car. They discuss how Red Bull's dominance has influenced the overall dynamics of the sport, leading to both excitement and concerns about the competitiveness of the grid.

* **Alpha Tauri's Steady Progress:** The hosts acknowledge Alpha Tauri's consistent improvement over the past few seasons, highlighting their ability to challenge the midfield and occasionally secure podium finishes. They discuss the team's strengths, such as their driver lineup and technical capabilities, and speculate on their potential to make further strides in the upcoming seasons.

* **Alpine's Strategic Moves:** The hosts analyze Alpine's strategic decisions during the season, including their driver changes and technical developments. They examine the impact of these moves on the team's overall performance, discussing both the successes and challenges that Alpine faced. They also consider the team's long-term prospects and whether they can maintain their competitiveness in the highly competitive midfield.

**Important Quotes and Statements:**

* "Red Bull has been in a league of their own this season. Verstappen has been untouchable, and the team has executed flawlessly." - Spanners

* "Alpha Tauri has quietly become a force to be reckoned with in the midfield. They're consistently challenging for points and even podiums." - Matt

* "Alpine has made some bold moves this season, and it's paid off for them. They've established themselves as a top midfield team and could even challenge for wins in the future." - Kyle

**Controversies and Insightful Moments:**

* The hosts discuss the controversial incident involving Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton at the Brazilian Grand Prix, examining the different perspectives on the incident and its potential implications for the sport.

* They also delve into the debate surrounding the FIA's technical directives and their impact on the performance of certain teams, highlighting the complexities and challenges of regulating such a dynamic sport.

**Overall Message and Takeaway:**

The episode concludes with a reflection on the overall narrative of the 2023 Formula One season, emphasizing the excitement and unpredictability that characterized the championship battle. The hosts highlight the importance of strategic decision-making, driver skill, and technical innovation in determining the outcome of races and the championship. They also discuss the significance of fan engagement and the role it plays in shaping the future of the sport.

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[02:11.000 -> 02:14.000] You are listening to Myst Apex Podcast.
[02:14.000 -> 02:18.000] We live F1.
[02:33.880 -> 02:40.560] Welcome to Mist Apex podcast. I'm your host Richard Ready, but my friends call me Spanners. So let's be friends. Welcome to part three, I think, of our season reviews. And it's going
[02:40.560 -> 02:45.040] to be the Red Bulls that we're talking about today. So the four Red Bull cars
[02:45.040 -> 02:49.680] and the five Red Bull drivers and Alpine as well. I don't think we're going to have time
[02:49.680 -> 02:54.400] to get to McLaren but if you're listening I just want you to know that I think you're one of the
[02:54.400 -> 03:00.320] best ones and actually our listening hasn't dropped off that much towards the end of the season.
[03:00.320 -> 03:05.600] Normally there's quite a kind of a dip as the season ends, but this year, it does feel
[03:05.600 -> 03:11.200] like I think as we got to the end of the regular racing, if you were still hanging around by
[03:11.200 -> 03:14.400] the time you got to Mexico and Brazil, then you were going to hang around into the off
[03:14.400 -> 03:15.400] season as well.
[03:15.400 -> 03:21.000] Only the hardcore fans lasted until the end of 2023, and that includes you.
[03:21.000 -> 03:25.600] All right, then, let's crack on, but not before I remind you that we're
[03:25.600 -> 03:29.920] an independent podcast produced in the podcasting shed, with the kind permission of our better
[03:29.920 -> 03:34.200] halves. We aim to bring you a race review before your Monday morning commute. We might
[03:34.200 -> 03:41.040] be wrong, but we're first.
[03:41.040 -> 03:47.000] I'm joined in the shed, oh, we're lucky we don't have stupid Chris anymore, we've got Matt Trumpets back. Hey Matt!
[03:47.000 -> 03:50.000] Everyone gets bitterballen, herring and stroopwafeln.
[03:50.000 -> 03:54.000] You've just been to Amsterdam, are you just saying European things?
[03:54.000 -> 03:59.000] No, it's because we're going to talk about Red Bull, the best of the best of the best, sir!
[03:59.000 -> 04:03.000] Nice, and they've been very good this year, haven't they?
[04:03.000 -> 04:05.120] They really have.
[04:05.120 -> 04:12.480] And we are joined in the shed by MotoGP podcast host Kyle Edgy Power. How's it going Kyle?
[04:12.480 -> 04:17.840] Very good and a bit tired after doing my very own McLaren last night which was a wobbly start to the
[04:17.840 -> 04:22.720] evening, okay in the middle and a bit too good and strong at the end going all the way to six
[04:22.720 -> 04:28.360] o'clock this morning. Kyle I have tried to tell you nothing good happens after midnight. Be honest. The best
[04:28.360 -> 04:33.080] part of the evening was until about half ten and then it's all a messy blur.
[04:33.080 -> 04:37.820] Very much. Over the five, six pipe market starts to get a bit hazy after that.
[04:37.820 -> 04:43.320] And somebody who's now on their second drinking session of the day. It's a test driver, Brad
[04:43.320 -> 04:45.000] Philpott. How's it going, Brad?
[04:45.000 -> 04:47.080] I am here to provide the perspective
[04:47.080 -> 04:49.600] of the majority of the listeners, I imagine,
[04:49.600 -> 04:53.900] who are trying to make the memories of this season fade
[04:53.900 -> 04:56.240] so we can look forward to a better one coming up.
[04:56.240 -> 04:59.880] So what I'm saying is, I haven't done deep research
[04:59.880 -> 05:04.320] into these teams because I would have forgotten it already.
[05:04.320 -> 05:06.080] My memory is terrible. So I'm going to
[05:06.080 -> 05:09.840] come at this, I'm going to attempt to come at this from the perspective of someone who watched
[05:09.840 -> 05:16.480] everything but hasn't specifically gone into detail since the season. That's okay because
[05:16.480 -> 05:21.440] Matt's done painstaking notes and statistics that no one's read or paid attention to.
[05:21.440 -> 05:25.120] I'm completely famous for my pointless, useless, and entirely entertaining
[05:25.120 -> 05:29.760] statistics. You can tell how much of the show notes I haven't got to by how increasingly upset
[05:29.760 -> 05:35.120] Matt looks on the live stream. So Brad, we should be clear on this because, you know, we're going to
[05:35.120 -> 05:41.600] get the YouTube comments. Like, you and I, you mostly, are seen as people who hate Verstappen
[05:41.600 -> 05:45.720] and hate Red Bull, and we do get quite a lot of feedback to that.
[05:45.720 -> 05:47.160] I'm never actively going,
[05:47.160 -> 05:49.440] right, I'm gonna do a character assassination
[05:49.440 -> 05:51.360] on Red Bull or Max Verstappen.
[05:51.360 -> 05:52.800] I think I genuinely come from a point
[05:52.800 -> 05:56.400] where I call out the things I like and don't like,
[05:56.400 -> 05:58.760] but Red Bull do a lot of the things I don't like.
[05:58.760 -> 06:00.960] So I sort of understand why it comes across
[06:00.960 -> 06:03.120] like I don't like Red Bull,
[06:03.120 -> 06:10.640] because I comment negatively about the things they do that I don't like. I definitely wouldn't use the word hate from my perspective. I don't
[06:10.640 -> 06:16.560] hate... oh no, actually, maybe Red Bull themselves, the senior management, maybe that is appropriate,
[06:16.560 -> 06:28.160] but I don't hate Max. I just think I get branded that way because any time you don't specifically praise certain teams or drivers
[06:28.160 -> 06:32.240] for things which you might not agree with, or maybe even criticise them, that gets taken
[06:32.240 -> 06:37.480] as hate and you're labelled a hater by some people. And as you said, if I'm consistently
[06:37.480 -> 06:41.880] criticising a certain team, it's not because I have anything against that team, it's because
[06:41.880 -> 06:49.680] they're the ones doing the thing. And yeah, so there we go, that's my defense. If Williams did all the things that Red Bull did, I would
[06:49.680 -> 06:54.000] probably end up speaking more negatively about Williams, you know, I'm not specifically in one
[06:54.000 -> 06:59.680] camp or the other. And I do like, you know, Red Bull. You remember the olden days, Kyle,
[06:59.680 -> 07:05.520] that when they came over, they took over from stuffy Jaguar, and they were the party team of the paddock.
[07:11.680 -> 07:16.320] Yeah, they were the plucky sort of underdogs coming in. They brought a new sort of vibrancy to the pit lane, like blaring out the loud music and stuff like that. And they were very,
[07:16.320 -> 07:20.160] yo, I think everyone was sort of cheering them on and wanted them to do well. And it was only
[07:20.160 -> 07:24.640] when they sort of really got successful and started winning and then started these sort of,
[07:24.640 -> 07:25.200] only when they sort of really got successful and started winning and then started these sort of
[07:31.920 -> 07:38.480] starting the trend of smeary press tactics against your rivals, which is where I think a lot of people started going off them a bit. But yeah, the original Red Bull running a modified old Jaguar
[07:38.480 -> 07:42.480] car with DC on it scoring points, I think, in the first race. Brilliant. I was super chuffed that
[07:42.480 -> 07:48.800] day. Yeah. I have to say, a lot of my news feed Brad is filled with, you know, people going at you.
[07:49.520 -> 07:55.680] I had someone say I was wrong for blocking people and so I blocked him. Then he did another account
[07:55.680 -> 08:01.440] and he said block this one then, I can do this all day. And he did it four more times and then gave up.
[08:01.440 -> 08:05.160] Yeah, it's much quicker to block someone that it's set up a new account.
[08:05.160 -> 08:12.340] So I don't see really any of that negativity because I am quite trigger happy on the old
[08:12.340 -> 08:18.000] block button. So I think I've curated a nice echo chamber of people who don't, it's just
[08:18.000 -> 08:22.520] an echo chamber of people who it's not even echo because it's people who aren't having
[08:22.520 -> 08:25.240] a go at me. It's just it's a silent echo
[08:25.240 -> 08:30.000] chamber where I'm not getting abused. So I'm quite happy with that and I'm also
[08:30.000 -> 08:34.880] nice about everyone and I posted a thing about Muppets today. My Twitter is mainly
[08:34.880 -> 08:39.600] Muppet Christmas Carol. At the moment, at the moment. Okay, but at the moment the
[08:39.600 -> 08:46.160] the overwhelming thing has been the utter dominance of Red Bull. So I think let's let's talk about it from
[08:46.160 -> 08:54.000] a tech point of view Matt. Why on earth was that so so dominant? Because it wasn't it wasn't even
[08:54.000 -> 09:00.720] like 2013 when when Vettel, that's the last time we saw that level of one driver one car dominance.
[09:00.720 -> 09:06.080] He was just so far ahead in 2013 that he could choose the gap. And I think
[09:06.080 -> 09:11.120] maybe it's a little bit of a mentality difference between Verstappen and Vettel. Whereas Vettel
[09:11.120 -> 09:15.600] might have taken the team line to go, okay, just get one pit stop ahead and then chill
[09:15.600 -> 09:22.880] there. Whereas Verstappen, you know, he needed the fastest lap every time. He needed to get
[09:22.880 -> 09:28.800] ahead and really show it. So it could be that other teams have been this dominant in the past, but it's really Verstappen going,
[09:28.800 -> 09:36.560] no, I want to crush you. He did. And he had the very best tool on the grid to do it with.
[09:36.560 -> 09:42.880] And I think the thing about the Red Bull dominance, and this goes back to the first
[09:42.880 -> 09:50.180] year of these regulations, they came out with their first update and what they said was wow that worked
[09:50.880 -> 09:55.400] Exactly like we predicted which almost never happens
[09:55.400 -> 09:59.080] But most people or I won't even say most people what some people may not know is that
[09:59.320 -> 10:02.880] When you run stuff in CFD when you put things in the wind tunnel
[10:02.880 -> 10:06.800] There's an awful lot of math that goes on
[10:06.800 -> 10:11.840] to make it look like what they think is going to happen on the track when they put the full-size
[10:11.840 -> 10:19.520] part on the car. And to have it line up perfectly is a terrible thing for everyone that was chasing
[10:19.520 -> 10:29.480] them. Yeah, that's super, super ominous for the rest of the sea. Well, the rest of the, yeah, the rest of this regulation set really, because, yeah, that
[10:29.480 -> 10:30.480] means their correlation.
[10:30.480 -> 10:33.760] We hear this word correlation a lot, and it's getting, as Matt just said, it's all of the
[10:33.760 -> 10:36.640] CFD data, their wind tunnel scale model.
[10:36.640 -> 10:39.400] Obviously, they don't put a full car size into the wind tunnel.
[10:39.400 -> 10:41.160] That would be obscenely expensive.
[10:41.160 -> 10:42.360] So they have a scale model.
[10:42.360 -> 10:47.640] Obviously, they need to then translate that over to real life. And the
[10:47.640 -> 10:50.120] scary thing is, is they've taken it straight from there, put it
[10:50.120 -> 10:52.620] on the car, and it's worked, it's worked exactly as
[10:52.620 -> 10:55.600] expected. So that's not only good for this car, they have
[10:55.600 -> 10:57.240] mentioned at the end of the season, they're gonna they're
[10:57.240 -> 10:59.600] gonna do a bit of an overhaul. So that means that they can
[10:59.600 -> 11:02.160] maybe do some slight concept tweaks and some slight tweaks
[11:02.160 -> 11:04.720] and experiment loads with a very good level of confidence that
[11:04.720 -> 11:06.720] they're not wasting resources.
[11:06.720 -> 11:08.640] And that just gives them way more options for next year.
[11:08.640 -> 11:13.440] So it you'd be hard pushed not to think that they're only going to get stronger from here.
[11:13.440 -> 11:14.440] Okay.
[11:14.440 -> 11:16.840] But the reason they're changing most of the components is because they're giving them
[11:16.840 -> 11:19.640] to Alpha Tauri is my understanding.
[11:19.640 -> 11:21.760] We'll get to Alpha Tauri, Matt.
[11:21.760 -> 11:29.320] Well, and just to follow up on that, what Kyle is saying, and what I hear Red Bull saying between the lines is, they started with a
[11:29.320 -> 11:34.680] very neutral concept that they could set up at a lot of different races, and that they
[11:34.680 -> 11:40.000] felt would work very well across a wide variety of circuits in this regulation set.
[11:40.000 -> 11:42.880] And they were the only team that got it all the way right.
[11:42.880 -> 11:53.340] Some teams got it very wrong. But I think what I hear them saying is, we are coming to the easily bought gains of the
[11:53.340 -> 11:55.840] concept we started with.
[11:55.840 -> 11:57.160] And we've been thinking about it.
[11:57.160 -> 12:03.000] And you'll notice that the Red Bull margin was shrinking in the second half of the season.
[12:03.000 -> 12:05.200] And now some of that will have been the penalty,
[12:10.960 -> 12:16.160] but a lot of it will have been them seeing this, the end of the easy, the low-hanging fruit, I like to call it, and saying, okay, we're going to have to update our chassis, we're going to have
[12:16.160 -> 12:22.160] to, we're going to have to change some more major structural stuff to get to that next level. And
[12:22.160 -> 12:25.380] this is happening just at a time when you have Ferrari and Mercedes
[12:25.940 -> 12:29.700] really beginning to understand what they've been up to and potentially
[12:30.300 -> 12:34.460] McLaren too, coming with a car that might be able to chase the Red Bull
[12:34.460 -> 12:41.980] they're finishing this season with. But the question is, how accurate are they going to be with the Red Bull they bring to us next
[12:42.540 -> 12:44.220] testing? So it's what, February?
[12:44.220 -> 12:46.720] Yeah, it's a it's a it is a risk again. Like people shouldn't think that the Red Bull they bring to us next testing, such as what, February? Yeah, it's a risk again.
[12:46.720 -> 12:51.360] People shouldn't think that Red Bull aren't themselves taking a risk.
[12:51.360 -> 12:57.040] If it was completely static and other teams weren't developing, then you'd go, okay, well,
[12:57.040 -> 12:58.040] it's cemented in.
[12:58.040 -> 13:02.160] And people get a little bit bogged down saying, well, it's the regulation set, we're locked
[13:02.160 -> 13:04.320] in to this regulation set.
[13:04.320 -> 13:06.320] But let's have a hypothetical,
[13:06.320 -> 13:11.920] if Red Bull had to start with the car they had in the first third of the season, would you expect
[13:11.920 -> 13:18.800] them to come out dominant again? And the answer is probably not. So three or four teams in 2024
[13:18.800 -> 13:25.680] will probably beat the start of the 2023 Red Bull car. So Red Bull's got some work to do. It's not like
[13:25.680 -> 13:31.560] in the bag in the bag, but Brad's looking less, am I being a sweet summer child?
[13:31.560 -> 13:36.560] I just think that's a bit optimistic. I think if Red Bull started the season next year with
[13:36.560 -> 13:41.080] this year's car at the beginning of the season, it would, okay, maybe not quite as dominant,
[13:41.080 -> 13:45.240] I still think it would be clearly the best. I don't trust that the
[13:45.240 -> 13:50.520] teams, the other teams are going to have caught up to the extent that Red Bull were already
[13:50.520 -> 13:56.720] ahead. Maybe I'm just being a massive pessimist, but that car seems pretty sorted from the
[13:56.720 -> 14:02.760] absolute outset. And even if anyone comes with a car that is potentially quicker when
[14:02.760 -> 14:06.900] fully optimized, it won't be fully optimized at the start of the season.
[14:06.900 -> 14:10.800] So I'm pretty, I have a lot of trust
[14:10.800 -> 14:14.320] in the strength of the current Red Bull concept.
[14:14.320 -> 14:16.040] Unfortunately, you know, for you.
[14:16.040 -> 14:16.880] For you.
[14:16.880 -> 14:17.700] Not wanting them to win.
[14:17.700 -> 14:19.080] For us neutrals, it doesn't matter,
[14:19.080 -> 14:20.940] but that's the thing, isn't it, Matt?
[14:20.940 -> 14:23.820] They have got such a stable platform
[14:23.820 -> 14:25.440] that the other teams aren't
[14:25.440 -> 14:30.560] even at zero. They're not even at that good baseline yet. Whereas Red Bull have been at that
[14:30.560 -> 14:35.440] baseline for a couple of seasons now with this concept and they just they are just flying aren't
[14:35.440 -> 14:41.360] they? Yeah I mean really the only thing that could undo them at this point is the same kind of
[14:41.360 -> 14:45.980] mathematical or simulation failure that affected Mercedes when they came
[14:45.980 -> 14:50.540] to the start of this regulation set, that they go in a direction that their tools don't
[14:50.540 -> 14:54.580] show them the problems with, and then they're stuck with it for a whole season trying to
[14:54.580 -> 14:56.100] put band-aids on it.
[14:56.100 -> 15:03.020] And as Brad says, that's not the most probable outcome in this scenario.
[15:03.020 -> 15:04.020] Okay.
[15:04.020 -> 15:07.760] No, no blind hope, Kyle.
[15:07.760 -> 15:08.760] Go on, Kyle.
[15:08.760 -> 15:09.760] You know how I like blind hope.
[15:09.760 -> 15:15.000] And to quote Paul Diresta, for the good of the sport, not because I support any particular
[15:15.000 -> 15:16.560] driver or team.
[15:16.560 -> 15:23.480] No, look, they absolutely nailed this concept from the scratch and they are reaping the
[15:23.480 -> 15:26.540] rewards of their own work. I mean, the
[15:26.540 -> 15:30.680] way that everyone keeps describing it is as if it's, you know, they've kind of done a
[15:30.680 -> 15:34.540] bad thing and they've sort of lucked into this, which they haven't. They have done an
[15:34.540 -> 15:38.980] amazing job. They have nailed the concept as much as we, I personally don't like the
[15:38.980 -> 15:43.320] senior management's press games. I take my hat off to the team because it's just incredible
[15:43.320 -> 15:49.080] what they're doing on the engineering front. The whole team is on every level is operationally unbelievable. And
[15:49.080 -> 15:51.520] we haven't seen this for a while. But going into next
[15:51.520 -> 15:54.280] year, they know they cannot get complacent. They cannot take a
[15:54.280 -> 15:55.640] risk. They cannot get complacent. Because I just said
[15:55.640 -> 15:58.600] we saw other teams catching up and especially with Mercedes now
[15:58.600 -> 16:02.440] probably just going to copy Red Bull somewhat and go their own
[16:02.440 -> 16:04.920] route. Red Bull now going to have to move the game on. So
[16:04.960 -> 16:08.340] yes, they've had this penalty to deal with. They've got a good platform. I still
[16:08.340 -> 16:13.000] expect them to be to be really good, but I don't think they're going to be as dominant
[16:13.000 -> 16:17.280] people. All the other teams now are cottoning on. And I think this year was exasperated
[16:17.280 -> 16:22.240] by the fact that a lot of the other teams dropped the ball. I think, you know, Mercedes,
[16:22.240 -> 16:30.480] Ferrari did a particularly bad job as well this season. So that's just, you know, aggravated the situation, so to speak. So with Ferrari, maybe sorting
[16:30.480 -> 16:34.240] themselves out, with Mercedes maybe sorting themselves out. And if Aston can keep this
[16:34.240 -> 16:39.600] momentum going with McLaren, then it, yeah, I'm not getting all sort of doom-filled for next year
[16:39.600 -> 16:42.960] yet. Let's see what happens. But I definitely think they will be pegged back a bit. I think
[16:42.960 -> 16:47.980] this year was pretty exceptional case of everyone else dropping the ball and them
[16:47.980 -> 16:52.240] absolutely nailing it. So loads and loads of quotes coming out from Ferrari. I
[16:52.240 -> 16:57.200] think it was Luke Smith who went and did an interview with Fred Vasseur. So
[16:57.200 -> 17:00.780] there's loads of Fred Vasseur quotes doing the rounds today and one of them
[17:00.780 -> 17:06.320] was, oh yeah we went into 2023 with too high expectations, but this year,
[17:06.320 -> 17:11.680] it will definitely, definitely, I think we will make huge gains. And Carlos Sainz is saying the
[17:11.680 -> 17:19.680] improvement that McLaren have made kind of shows you what is possible by changing your concept.
[17:19.680 -> 17:25.680] So please, please, Ferrari fans, definitely get your hopes up because Ferrari cosplaying
[17:25.680 -> 17:31.000] as potential title contenders at the start of every season, it gets me through February.
[17:31.000 -> 17:34.520] I don't know if I could get through February without it, but they are launching their new
[17:34.520 -> 17:39.120] car on February the 13th, on Valentine's Day Eve.
[17:39.120 -> 17:49.840] So the Tifosi can have love and hope for February the 14th, Matt. Yeah, and that will eventually evaporate, as it almost certainly does every year.
[17:49.840 -> 17:54.880] Although, entertainingly, I will say, thank goodness for Ferrari and Mercedes being bad
[17:54.880 -> 17:58.240] at their job, because it did give us a lot to talk about this season.
[17:58.240 -> 18:02.160] But I have a question for you. Would you like me to read numbers at you?
[18:02.160 -> 18:04.560] Oh, please. This is why we've missed him.
[18:04.820 -> 18:05.580] Would you like me to read numbers at you? Oh, please. This is why we've missed him. I
[18:12.040 -> 18:12.460] Knew it. I have taken it upon myself to try and quantify how much better Red Bull was
[18:19.260 -> 18:19.780] Than all of the other teams and I did this very simply by figuring out how much the highest scoring driver
[18:25.440 -> 18:28.160] Had to be multiplied by to equal max a score. That seemed like a fair way to go about it. So we'll start with Mercedes, which I found to be the closest,
[18:28.800 -> 18:36.720] is 2.44. And you stay in the twos till you get down to Alpine, which was 9.46.
[18:37.360 -> 18:41.920] And then we fall off a real cliff. And this to me is the interesting thing, like, where's the
[18:41.920 -> 18:45.520] bottom of the grid in relationship to Red Bull? How far away are they?
[18:45.520 -> 18:50.600] Williams, 21.2 times it took to get Alban's score to Verstappen.
[18:50.600 -> 18:53.440] Alpha Tauri, 37.86.
[18:53.440 -> 18:55.840] Alpha Romeo, 53.
[18:55.840 -> 19:01.760] And then good old Haas, 88.33 times as bad as a Red Bull.
[19:01.760 -> 19:04.760] Okay, Kyle, if this is more numbers, I'm going to veto.
[19:04.760 -> 19:05.360] No, but that just goes and highlights and just backs up my point a Red Bull. Okay, Kyle, if this is more numbers, I'm gonna veto.
[19:05.360 -> 19:07.240] No, but that just goes and highlights
[19:07.240 -> 19:09.360] and just backs up my point of Red Bull
[19:09.360 -> 19:11.720] absolutely smashed it this season.
[19:11.720 -> 19:14.400] They are the only grid, they are the only team on the grid
[19:14.400 -> 19:16.240] that doesn't have a turd in their hamper.
[19:16.240 -> 19:20.080] Everyone else has a black mark on their,
[19:20.080 -> 19:21.800] in their Christmas hampers and what they've done this year.
[19:21.800 -> 19:23.880] And Red Bull, the only team that don't.
[19:23.880 -> 19:27.420] So it just makes that gap appear wider than it actually is.
[19:27.420 -> 19:30.460] I would swear Kyle said Cole in the stocking, right?
[19:30.460 -> 19:32.820] Oh, yes that.
[19:32.820 -> 19:37.660] Just in case it's not obvious to everyone, Matt's figures are skewed by the fact that
[19:37.660 -> 19:43.220] there is a disproportionate gap between, for the points that you get between each position.
[19:43.220 -> 19:44.220] Is that right Matt?
[19:44.220 -> 19:50.400] Actually, actually, my way of pointing to that would be the teams at the rear, it's unfair because they can
[19:50.400 -> 19:56.640] have a blinding day and they go from zero points to zero points. So I think the point is well taken,
[19:56.640 -> 20:02.320] it's the level of dominance of Verstappen in that car. So that leads us to the very natural question
[20:02.880 -> 20:05.600] which Brad is going to upset me. I'm a Perez fan, right?
[20:05.600 -> 20:09.860] Brad's gonna up, you know, try and upset me. But you know, why was that gap so big?
[20:09.860 -> 20:15.880] And it's been talked about all season, you know, the debate is what is the car made for Max?
[20:15.880 -> 20:20.880] There was a really interesting interview with Alex Albon. I don't know if you caught that one. Apologies. I can't remember who's...
[20:20.880 -> 20:27.440] Oh, yes, I do. He was talking on the High Performance podcast with Jake Humphrey, and that's the podcast,
[20:27.440 -> 20:30.600] because a lot of people don't think about just working hard.
[20:30.600 -> 20:31.440] But.
[20:31.440 -> 20:32.260] Just sell your Porsche.
[20:32.260 -> 20:33.640] Yeah, just sell your Porsche.
[20:33.640 -> 20:34.640] Just follow your dreams.
[20:34.640 -> 20:38.080] Just invite the universe to give you stuff.
[20:38.080 -> 20:39.920] But it was a very good interview,
[20:39.920 -> 20:43.560] and Alex Albon was talking about how it was very sensitive,
[20:43.560 -> 20:46.560] so maybe Brad, you could make some more sense of this.
[20:46.560 -> 20:48.320] He was basically saying it was like having your mouse
[20:48.320 -> 20:50.580] on high sensitivity and trying to click on things
[20:50.580 -> 20:51.860] around the screen.
[20:51.860 -> 20:53.880] And that's why he was really struggling
[20:53.880 -> 20:56.200] and losing his confidence.
[20:56.200 -> 20:58.880] So like, I can't visualize in my head,
[20:58.880 -> 21:00.140] you know, what that feels like
[21:00.140 -> 21:02.100] or why a car would be like that.
[21:02.100 -> 21:04.000] Yeah, I mean, I can visualize it.
[21:04.000 -> 21:05.200] Obviously I don't have a very
[21:05.200 -> 21:08.720] strong mental image of what it's like to drive a Formula One car because I've never driven one.
[21:08.720 -> 21:13.360] But you are a race car driver. Maybe soon. Oh yes, you might be driving. But you have driven
[21:13.360 -> 21:19.040] single-seaters, you've driven a lot of, you know, race cars. Yeah, absolutely. I can relate to the
[21:19.040 -> 21:25.280] fact that certain car characteristics can work for one driver and not work for another. And you can
[21:25.280 -> 21:30.480] provide the drivers with, on the face of it, identical machinery. Both of the cars that have
[21:30.480 -> 21:35.680] been provided are capable of winning the race, say, or doing a certain lap time. And one driver,
[21:35.680 -> 21:42.240] who is good in certain situations, just cannot access the same level. I think quite a good way
[21:42.240 -> 21:45.760] of looking at this is, if you were to take Max, for example,
[21:45.760 -> 21:51.600] with his current skills and put him in a sim race against most of the grid in Formula 1,
[21:51.600 -> 21:55.200] he would be even further ahead, probably of most of them. Norris would be, I imagine,
[21:55.200 -> 21:59.080] quite close, because Norris is very, very good on the sim too. But it's because he is
[21:59.080 -> 22:06.200] feeling things and able to translate the information that the vehicle or the sim in that situation is
[22:06.200 -> 22:14.160] giving him that the others aren't, or able to control that machine, sim, car, whatever,
[22:14.160 -> 22:16.940] in a way that the others aren't, based on the information provided.
[22:16.940 -> 22:20.320] And maybe that explains Perez's gap.
[22:20.320 -> 22:26.000] But the problem you have, the problem Perez has in this situation is, if that is the characteristic
[22:26.000 -> 22:32.960] of a fast modern Formula One car, then it doesn't matter that maybe if you set the scenario up
[22:32.960 -> 22:38.880] differently, he would be able to, you know, make the most of more of his skill and be closer.
[22:38.880 -> 22:44.240] That isn't the situation we have. The current situation in modern Formula One seems to be that
[22:46.640 -> 22:47.760] we have. The current situation in modern Formula One seems to be that that concept and a car that
[22:55.920 -> 23:01.680] has those traits is the fastest. It's the fastest approach and Max is able to deal with it and access more of it and win more. And Perez, I think even being really, really kind to him and
[23:01.680 -> 23:05.920] giving him a lot of benefit of the doubt, because everything I've just said there might not be why he was far off.
[23:05.920 -> 23:09.200] It might just be that he is simply not remotely as good.
[23:09.200 -> 23:13.040] And he was often behind much, much worse cars
[23:13.040 -> 23:15.680] and several other drivers that he shouldn't have been.
[23:15.680 -> 23:17.840] Before we just get into too much Perez slander,
[23:17.840 -> 23:19.600] I did go back and look at this,
[23:19.600 -> 23:23.640] the racing point stats from 2020.
[23:23.640 -> 23:30.900] And honestly, he didn't have a much worse season in the racing point than he had in this car
[23:30.900 -> 23:35.240] But it was almost better if you look at the back half of the season. He was almost better off
[23:36.280 -> 23:43.380] Driving in the in the racing point. So like something has clearly happened to him and Albon was giving that interview saying
[23:43.920 -> 23:48.480] Well, I'm not feeling that now, I'm much more comfortable at Williams, but as to Brad's point, it could
[23:48.480 -> 23:53.760] be because the Williams isn't capable of getting to the state where it is difficult to drive.
[23:53.760 -> 23:55.680] Sorry, Kyle, I know you've been waiting. Brad and then Kyle.
[23:56.320 -> 24:02.560] Perez is also at the stage in his career and at an age where it would be way harder to adapt to
[24:02.560 -> 24:06.700] a changing sport, a changing formula, than it would be for the younger drivers
[24:06.700 -> 24:10.760] who have fewer seasons in certain types of car behind them.
[24:10.760 -> 24:11.920] You know, think of all the types of car
[24:11.920 -> 24:13.480] that Perez has driven over his career.
[24:13.480 -> 24:16.340] He will have developed his kind of core skill
[24:16.340 -> 24:17.760] around totally different cars.
[24:17.760 -> 24:18.940] And you can make that same argument
[24:18.940 -> 24:21.240] about Alonso or Hamilton and say,
[24:21.240 -> 24:25.420] well, they seem to be able to adapt to the current style, but then I'd
[24:25.420 -> 24:28.580] counter with, yeah, but they're clearly much better drivers than Perez.
[24:28.580 -> 24:33.860] Yeah. One of the major jobs for a racing driver, and Brad is exactly sort of right, is to be
[24:33.860 -> 24:38.540] adaptable and is to get the best with what the tools that you actually have. And this
[24:38.540 -> 24:41.900] is not a unique thing in F1. We've seen this over the years. The ones that spring to mind
[24:41.900 -> 24:48.560] for me are the 1995 Benetton, where there was Schumacher dominated in it and these other teammates really struggled to drive it because it was such
[24:48.560 -> 24:52.800] a difficult car and had to be driven in such a window. And there was a very interesting interview
[24:52.800 -> 24:57.040] with one of the top Red Bull engineers, I think back from 2019, explaining how they lost their
[24:57.040 -> 25:03.120] way in 2018. And that was because they were purely following Max's input and developing the car down
[25:03.120 -> 25:05.360] this rabbit hole of everything on the
[25:05.360 -> 25:09.480] front end, which is when an Albon was trying to drive it and it becomes super, super difficult
[25:09.480 -> 25:13.480] to drive. And they admitted that they went too far in listening to Max because he has
[25:13.480 -> 25:17.480] the talent to extract it and get the most out of it that way. Whereas I said, Hamilton
[25:17.480 -> 25:22.240] and Alonso will probably adapt themselves to it. We saw this in 2012 with McLaren as
[25:22.240 -> 25:25.320] well where I think in the Canadian Grand Prix you had Lewis Hamilton winning and
[25:25.320 -> 25:27.880] Jenson Button being lapped in the same car just because
[25:27.880 -> 25:31.360] Jenson couldn't drive around the issues with the car. So I don't
[25:31.360 -> 25:33.800] think to take anything away from Max, I think Max has the
[25:33.800 -> 25:36.240] adaptability and the skill to get the most out of it. But I
[25:36.240 -> 25:39.120] don't necessarily, that Red Bull might be quick, but I think it
[25:39.120 -> 25:41.640] must be a very difficult car to drive in the way that you need
[25:41.640 -> 25:48.080] to drive it. And Perez just, he just failed to get the best out of it. He was better earlier in the season same thing of
[25:48.080 -> 25:51.880] 2022 when the car's a bit more neutral and they haven't dialled in that front
[25:51.880 -> 25:55.640] end and he was closer but then you know as a racing driver you need to adapt and
[25:55.640 -> 25:59.920] get the best out of the tools and that's the reason why Perez isn't great. He's a good driver but maybe not a
[25:59.920 -> 26:03.320] great one of the greats and that's because the greats can get the most out
[26:03.320 -> 26:09.200] of the situation whether they like driving it that way or not. He reportedly wanted to get the car back to the spec
[26:09.200 -> 26:13.280] it was like at Barcelona where that's the last time he sort of felt happy with it he said.
[26:14.160 -> 26:18.640] But that and that's an interesting point in itself which is the team can't bring two sets of spares.
[26:18.640 -> 26:23.600] No, of course not. It's like no and you're in no position once you're that far behind
[26:23.600 -> 26:25.360] you're in no position to start really making
[26:25.360 -> 26:26.900] kind of those demands.
[26:26.900 -> 26:29.700] But I don't know, look, where's Perez in his career?
[26:29.700 -> 26:33.600] He's been kept on for 2024, where you could easily argue
[26:33.600 -> 26:34.920] that it would be time to be replaced.
[26:34.920 -> 26:36.680] Red Bull seem happy with him.
[26:36.680 -> 26:38.880] He seems relatively happy.
[26:38.880 -> 26:42.480] Red Bull did a really great TikTok live,
[26:42.480 -> 26:46.640] and it was just Perez and Verstappen in their garage, I think,
[26:46.640 -> 26:52.040] where a lot of their car parts were. If anyone caught that, they were a delight. I think
[26:52.040 -> 26:57.400] they maybe seemed like they'd had a liquid lunch, but they were very, very personable.
[26:57.400 -> 27:02.120] Perez was being very funny. They clearly seemed to get on well together. So it could just
[27:02.120 -> 27:05.200] kind of be that it's an outside problem and everyone in Red Bull's
[27:05.200 -> 27:11.920] kind of vaguely happy. Brad? I also think that it really, as much as this is annoying for the rest
[27:11.920 -> 27:16.640] of us watching because there's less competition, I think it's just a really sensible thing to have
[27:16.640 -> 27:21.600] a driver who is clearly a step behind your lead driver. It's, this isn't a new thing, I'm not
[27:21.600 -> 27:27.680] saying anything groundbreaking here, but if you, if you're in a championship fight, which they may well be next year, and you don't really
[27:27.680 -> 27:30.960] care about the constructors because one, if you're good enough, you're going to be in
[27:30.960 -> 27:33.680] the hunt for that anyway. Like, you know, Max could have easily won that on his own
[27:33.680 -> 27:39.000] this year, but it just helps to not have drivers taking points off each other. If we are in
[27:39.000 -> 27:44.400] a situation next season where you've got Red Bull are one of the best cars, but there are
[27:44.400 -> 27:46.720] other teams who are winning enough
[27:46.720 -> 27:48.540] that there's actually a championship fight,
[27:48.540 -> 27:50.360] but both of that other team's drivers
[27:50.360 -> 27:51.560] are capable of winning,
[27:51.560 -> 27:53.280] and only one of the Red Bull drivers
[27:53.280 -> 27:55.680] is capable of winning when those cars
[27:55.680 -> 27:57.480] are at a track that works for them,
[27:57.480 -> 28:00.880] then Max will be the one scoring all of the Red Bull wins,
[28:00.880 -> 28:04.240] and say, Leclerc and Sainz will be sharing,
[28:04.240 -> 28:06.040] and Russell and Hamilton will be
[28:06.040 -> 28:10.360] sharing and so it will just it clearly will work better if you're if you're trying to
[28:10.360 -> 28:14.720] win the drivers championship. So I think they just understand that as well as they don't
[28:14.720 -> 28:20.200] really care if Perez is you know if he can put up with looking a bit silly you know and
[28:20.200 -> 28:24.760] he did look a bit silly this year against Max then that's that works. The problem is
[28:24.760 -> 28:25.760] the problem most teams have is
[28:25.760 -> 28:30.880] the number two driver doesn't like to be a number two or won't accept it. And I think Perez might
[28:30.880 -> 28:33.840] have accepted it now, despite what he'll say over the winter probably.
[28:34.560 -> 28:39.120] Well, the thing that occurs to me is to think about Mercedes, interestingly, and there was
[28:39.120 -> 28:51.480] that period of time where Russell was doing very well relative to Hamilton, and Hamilton was like, I'm just missing a thing that I need to drive well. And then they changed the car, and suddenly it was Russell who
[28:51.480 -> 28:57.480] was missing a thing that he absolutely needed to drive the car well. So some of this can really
[28:57.480 -> 29:07.360] just be down to where the Red Bull engineers think the car is fastest overall, and then how easy is it from there to give the driver
[29:07.360 -> 29:10.480] what they need to extract their maximum performance from the car.
[29:10.480 -> 29:16.240] I don't think anyone thinks Perez is going to extract the same amount of performance
[29:16.240 -> 29:21.520] from the car as Max, but you'd think that someone that experienced, especially someone
[29:21.520 -> 29:25.800] who previously had a reputation as being good on tires, would
[29:25.800 -> 29:32.760] be able to get closer in terms of percent overall than he did this season.
[29:32.760 -> 29:40.260] And I think that's something Red Bull is aware of and will fix to the ability they can without
[29:40.260 -> 29:42.680] impeding where Max is.
[29:42.680 -> 29:45.360] Because I think you're right, I think they do like having him around.
[29:45.360 -> 29:46.920] I think his personality works.
[29:46.920 -> 29:49.240] I think he works for marketing for the team.
[29:49.240 -> 29:52.400] And I think whatever the personal relationship
[29:52.400 -> 29:56.120] between Max and Perez is, as teammates,
[29:56.120 -> 29:58.280] they actually do a good job together.
[29:58.280 -> 29:59.420] One more small point.
[29:59.420 -> 30:01.460] Don't overlook the fact that sometimes Perez
[30:01.460 -> 30:03.640] had to do things to help Max out,
[30:03.640 -> 30:05.120] which also affects the balance
[30:05.120 -> 30:07.840] of points that we see at the end of the season.
[30:07.840 -> 30:12.600] My only point there was, and this might be Verstappen you're comparing against, but when
[30:12.600 -> 30:18.440] Perez was considered good on his tires, who was his teammate? Because I think that might
[30:18.440 -> 30:26.000] go some way to explaining why. You know, it's easy to to say this driver traditionally, he was a
[30:26.000 -> 30:28.000] tyre whisperer or whatever, or he was
[30:28.000 -> 30:30.000] really fast, if we're talking about someone else.
[30:30.000 -> 30:32.000] But if their teammate
[30:32.000 -> 30:34.000] was Lance Stroll, or whoever
[30:34.000 -> 30:36.000] Ocon, not being mean
[30:36.000 -> 30:38.000] to Ocon, it's not really the same as being
[30:38.000 -> 30:40.000] compared against Max, who is just
[30:40.000 -> 30:42.000] able to do all of those things probably better
[30:42.000 -> 30:44.000] than almost everyone.
[30:44.000 -> 30:50.480] My memory of this, which may be inaccurate, so please feel free to write me at mistapex.net
[30:50.480 -> 30:55.760] and tell me how wrong I am about everything, because Spanners likes it when they send emails.
[30:55.760 -> 31:01.120] Do feedback at mistapex.net and then I'm included and then I can agree and be like, yeah, get
[31:01.120 -> 31:03.640] him, get him, listener.
[31:03.640 -> 31:10.080] But my memory was that he did some very long stints on tires. It wasn't just he was better
[31:10.080 -> 31:17.120] than his teammate on the tire. It was that he did some some genuinely impressive drives preserving
[31:17.120 -> 31:21.680] them. And I don't know, maybe Kyle will back me up here because I see him nodding his head.
[31:22.480 -> 31:26.840] Yeah, he was a fantastic, I think it'd be unfair to call him a midfield journeyman.
[31:26.840 -> 31:32.000] But I think if he hadn't got into a top team, he would have been gone down and been known as
[31:32.200 -> 31:33.880] yeah, he was like the best midfield driver.
[31:33.880 -> 31:39.840] He'd drag like midfield cars to get the odd podium through amazing tire preservation skills.
[31:39.840 -> 31:42.640] But Banners is right, who's his teammate?
[31:42.960 -> 31:47.480] You know, like, you know, what are? What are we benchmarking him against here?
[31:47.480 -> 31:53.160] So he's famous for getting great results and perennial overachiever in a midfield car,
[31:53.160 -> 31:57.240] but yeah, that doesn't necessarily translate to making the most out of a difficult but
[31:57.240 -> 31:59.680] fast and dominant car, does it, at the front of the grid?
[31:59.680 -> 32:06.840] When you're a supporter of a midfield driver, you've kind of got the best of the worlds really, because
[32:06.840 -> 32:11.000] there's low pressure. If they're not doing well or the team's not doing well, they kind
[32:11.000 -> 32:16.200] of disappear on the stream. It's not there, it's not focused. So having supported Perez
[32:16.200 -> 32:21.440] from nearly the beginning, that shot at McLaren was a little bit painful, but apart from that,
[32:21.440 -> 32:25.280] it was all pretty good. And if you know, if you're a Hulkenberg
[32:25.280 -> 32:28.840] fan, you don't want to see Hulkenberg, really. You might think you did, but you don't want
[32:28.840 -> 32:33.840] to see him go up against Leclerc or Verstappen, you'd get the same treatment. And I think
[32:33.840 -> 32:38.160] Lando Norris fans might be in that kind of same position at the moment as well. Care
[32:38.160 -> 32:42.880] for what you wish for, because the reports were, Brad, that Lando Norris turned down
[32:42.880 -> 32:46.880] a shot at a Red Bull seat. And I think that is absolutely the correct thing to do.
[32:46.880 -> 32:50.840] Yeah, it probably is the correct thing to do. I'm not saying yeah as in I agree with
[32:50.840 -> 32:57.720] you. I do think it's a very, very tough one because we've not seen him in this situation
[32:57.720 -> 33:07.680] enough in his senior career, and I mean Formula One career, to make a confirmed judgment on this. I think Lando is probably one of
[33:07.680 -> 33:13.920] the only people capable of being fast enough in the modern world of F1 to go up against Max,
[33:13.920 -> 33:20.560] but I haven't seen him with the same mental strength as Max. So we've seen a few things
[33:20.560 -> 33:24.400] where he's been like, so for example was it Sochi where he had a chance at a race win,
[33:23.880 -> 33:28.640] a few of things where he's been like, so for example, was it Sochi where he had the chance at a race win, a recent qualifying where he had the car for pole position?
[33:28.640 -> 33:32.820] The Sochi thing, I wouldn't count that as not being mentally strong because that's just
[33:32.820 -> 33:38.560] an incorrect weather decision, you know, if it went the other, if he'd known that it was
[33:38.560 -> 33:42.660] going to be the level of rain it was going to be, then he would have made a different
[33:42.660 -> 33:46.260] decision and he would have won the race. So that one I'm going to put aside.
[33:46.260 -> 33:48.380] It's, I think maybe it was at Qatar this year
[33:48.380 -> 33:51.580] where he was clearly on for pole and then threw that away.
[33:51.580 -> 33:55.700] I've seen a few of those and it almost seems like
[33:55.700 -> 33:59.700] the Lando Norris competitor in certain pressure moments
[33:59.700 -> 34:03.000] stops believing in himself as much as,
[34:03.000 -> 34:05.000] it's like he doesn't realise how good he actually
[34:05.000 -> 34:08.800] is. And I don't know whether that's one of those things that gets put to bed the moment
[34:08.800 -> 34:14.000] he starts winning, and maybe he then settles down and actually retains that self-belief.
[34:14.000 -> 34:18.880] Or whether that's just a Lando trait, you know. I didn't watch his junior career closely
[34:18.880 -> 34:23.800] enough to know whether or not he had that as a youngster. He obviously was super successful,
[34:23.800 -> 34:26.140] but the only thing he didn't win was Formula Two
[34:26.140 -> 34:29.440] on the way up, and that was in the really strong year.
[34:29.440 -> 34:32.240] But yeah, I really want to see Lando Norris,
[34:32.240 -> 34:34.200] I need to see him in his winning phase
[34:34.200 -> 34:36.880] or in his car that is capable of winning phase
[34:36.880 -> 34:38.280] to fully judge him on that.
[34:38.280 -> 34:40.360] I mean, there's a few like that, Matt, isn't there?
[34:40.360 -> 34:42.940] I've always said the same thing about Lewis Hamilton.
[34:42.940 -> 34:49.200] He really, he rides his emotions, he wears his heart on his mouth, you can see on his face
[34:49.200 -> 34:50.480] what he's thinking.
[34:50.480 -> 34:54.360] Leclerc is another one like that, that seems to, when things are going wrong.
[34:54.360 -> 34:57.520] In fact, I think there was even an interview with Lewis Hamilton where he was talking about
[34:57.520 -> 35:01.360] the struggles of the car, and he said he did start to question, well, is it me?
[35:01.360 -> 35:03.720] Can I just not drive cars anymore?
[35:03.720 -> 35:05.720] Well, yeah, that's a natural thing.
[35:05.720 -> 35:08.720] I was going to say, Brad, you should go back and watch his F3 season.
[35:08.720 -> 35:14.280] I think that's the one that you want to spectate on if you want to see the Lando Norris that
[35:14.280 -> 35:15.720] you're talking about.
[35:15.720 -> 35:16.920] That's where he came from.
[35:16.920 -> 35:22.280] That's where, that was the season that made him for the people looking for new Formula
[35:22.280 -> 35:23.280] One drivers.
[35:23.280 -> 35:32.800] He did very well in F2, but it wasn't the same. That was your Brussels one, I think. But to me, it's an interesting thing for him,
[35:33.360 -> 35:39.520] because the one thing he had and threw away was a win. And like you say, in certain situations,
[35:40.160 -> 35:48.000] you begin to wonder, has he got the yips a little bit? Is he got, is this like, not even on purpose because no one can really compete with Red
[35:48.000 -> 35:53.040] Bull, but anytime he gets close, is this a thing that's sometimes going to come up for
[35:53.040 -> 35:57.560] him that other drivers have already managed to get over, even when they're not in as good
[35:57.560 -> 35:58.560] a car?
[35:58.560 -> 36:02.560] Sorry, I know we're on Red Bull, but there was one race this year, I'm struggling to
[36:02.560 -> 36:06.460] remember it, but there was one where he sort of had a chance
[36:06.460 -> 36:09.160] to defend hard against Verstappen coming through
[36:09.160 -> 36:11.180] and he just didn't, he just opened the door,
[36:11.180 -> 36:13.860] let Verstappen go through, then Hamilton was behind
[36:13.860 -> 36:15.580] and then he fought Hamilton to the death.
[36:15.580 -> 36:17.540] Now you could say, well, that's sensible
[36:17.540 -> 36:19.500] because no one's on Verstappen's pace,
[36:19.500 -> 36:22.560] but maybe there was not that voice in his ear saying,
[36:22.560 -> 36:24.340] well, do you know what, if you fight for this place,
[36:24.340 -> 36:27.480] there's a chance something could happen if you keep him behind you, you
[36:27.480 -> 36:31.280] know, even for a few corners, let Hamilton catch up.
[36:31.280 -> 36:38.080] But to circle back to Red Bull, the one thing, argument we're missing here from, you know,
[36:38.080 -> 36:43.040] the dominance is, did Max Verstappen just take a massive leap forward?
[36:43.040 -> 36:50.320] Now I'm minded to think, you know, it's not really a coincidence that the, that gap suddenly appears. When that happens, it's usually down
[36:50.320 -> 36:56.920] to the car. So I'm a little bit reluctant to get on a, the stats train that everyone's
[36:56.920 -> 37:01.600] been doing. Oh, did you know Max has won this many races, which is the most since 18 Dickety
[37:01.600 -> 37:09.280] 4. He's won the most races in a row since Karl Maxington in the M car of 1842.
[37:09.280 -> 37:15.520] So it would be a coincidence, wouldn't it, if he had just suddenly taken a leap up in form. But,
[37:15.520 -> 37:18.160] you know, he could be... this could be it. This could be pinnacle Verstappen.
[37:18.160 -> 37:21.280] Richard Wagner I think this is... we're just seeing
[37:22.080 -> 37:28.000] a young potential great at the height of his powers now, being given the tools
[37:28.000 -> 37:34.160] to get these results. And I'm saying it, remember like Max is probably one of the first generation
[37:34.160 -> 37:39.200] of a thorough born and bred racing driver. His mother was a racing driver. His dad was a Formula
[37:39.200 -> 37:48.160] Formula One driver. He has been bred, has eaten, slept and breathed F1 and basically has been created for exactly
[37:48.160 -> 37:52.640] this for dominating Formula One. And I think he's the first true thoroughbred, you know,
[37:52.640 -> 37:58.640] from embryo to championship, pretty much that we have had. And I think we are just seeing the
[37:58.640 -> 38:02.640] results of him now getting into his stride and the height of his powers. We saw this, you know,
[38:02.640 -> 38:07.880] Schumacher at the height of his powers. We thought when Hamilton was in the middle of his Mercedes dominance, we've
[38:07.880 -> 38:11.520] not seen anything like this before. And I just think this is probably the next step
[38:11.520 -> 38:12.520] of that.
[38:12.520 -> 38:16.680] So it could be like both. So both things we're saying is true. So we're looking, we've been
[38:16.680 -> 38:20.920] talking about Perez, who's being compared to, and Perez is more towards the end of his
[38:20.920 -> 38:24.720] career. And he's had a very kind of different trajectory in F1, where he's kind of been
[38:24.720 -> 38:27.820] hanging on, fighting back, picking for those results.
[38:27.820 -> 38:33.700] It's not really a coincidence, is it, that your Schumacher, your Vettel, your Hamilton
[38:33.700 -> 38:38.020] got the best car at the peak of their career.
[38:38.020 -> 38:43.580] And you basically, you don't get that best car unless you have been on that journey.
[38:43.580 -> 38:47.120] Like it's quite rare that you get a Keke Rosberg
[38:47.120 -> 38:53.360] championship at... Damon Hill. Yeah okay you can upset people with Damon Hill, I love Damon Hill.
[38:53.360 -> 38:56.880] But you could sort of argue Jenson Button didn't have that career projection where he was getting
[38:56.880 -> 39:02.240] better and better and then was gobbled up by the best team. So you know Verstappen was was
[39:02.240 -> 39:05.680] adopted and fought for by the two top teams in Formula One.
[39:05.680 -> 39:10.160] Mercedes wanted him, Red Bull wanted him, so, you know, Red Bull got him, they nurtured him,
[39:10.160 -> 39:16.400] and then he was there in his prime when the car picked up. Same with Hamilton, Mercedes spotted,
[39:16.400 -> 39:21.520] he was getting better and better at Mercedes, had a great 2012, Mercedes looked over and said,
[39:21.520 -> 39:27.160] you know, we've got to have him, yeah. So, you know, that car wasn't handed to Paul Diresta, for example.
[39:27.360 -> 39:31.400] So, yeah, I think I think we're getting to something here, Kyle, that yes,
[39:31.600 -> 39:35.880] of course, this car is is dominant and fantastic, but it's also been combined
[39:36.080 -> 39:40.680] with a potential greatest of all time at his peak.
[39:40.880 -> 39:44.720] Absolutely. Like I think if you put sort of a less well,
[39:44.720 -> 39:45.400] we've seen there is a
[39:45.400 -> 39:49.840] lesser driver in the other Red Bull and we've seen the results of it. They've managed to
[39:49.840 -> 39:53.520] wobble through to second in the championship. You could almost argue. So I definitely think
[39:53.520 -> 39:57.120] there was a combination of that. And I think the staff and his height is making the Red
[39:57.120 -> 40:02.080] Bull look maybe a bit more dominant than it actually is. And the gulf between him and
[40:02.080 -> 40:08.160] his teammate who was slightly underperforming on to what we said earlier with the rest of the other teams underperforming as well, is making
[40:08.160 -> 40:12.480] this dominance appear a bit more dominant than I think it really is.
[40:12.480 -> 40:16.240] So the missing factor for me here is simply competition.
[40:16.240 -> 40:21.800] You have in Max a driver with a tool, and he can easily win.
[40:21.800 -> 40:30.080] Like he can go into every race knowing that he can win the race. If the Ferrari gets ahead of me, I wait for the degradation. If this happens, I wait
[40:30.080 -> 40:36.600] for that. I have the tool I need to beat everybody. And I think as a result of
[40:36.600 -> 40:40.560] that, because I'm going someplace with this, I think we have seen a maturing of
[40:40.560 -> 40:47.640] his driving style. He has made, you know, as a parent you say, make better choices, right?
[40:47.640 -> 40:54.560] He's made better choices. But what we haven't seen is someone with a car that might beat him,
[40:54.560 -> 41:01.520] and he knows might beat him. We haven't had that test yet. That's the one, and this is not to take
[41:01.520 -> 41:07.040] anything away from where he is now. I think that's the one that everyone really wants to see
[41:07.040 -> 41:11.560] That's when we'll know the true measure of what he's gained over these seasons
[41:11.880 -> 41:17.240] It's like the Fermi paradox, but for motorsport, you know, the Fermi paradox is if there are aliens, where are they?
[41:17.240 -> 41:22.600] So the f1 equivalent is well, where's the where's the championship contender in their prime with a great car?
[41:22.600 -> 41:26.040] and it's just statistics that at any
[41:26.040 -> 41:30.920] given time only one or two teams is near the top of the regulations and at any
[41:30.920 -> 41:35.240] given time how many of the drivers are have their potential in this starting
[41:35.240 -> 41:39.200] out how many are at the end of the their career and how many are at the peak
[41:39.200 -> 41:43.240] where they would take advantage of that car because you could almost look at
[41:43.240 -> 41:47.360] this car and go well if you put a rookie in it with Sergio Perez,
[41:47.360 -> 41:49.360] there's a case to go, well, maybe they never
[41:49.360 -> 41:53.400] go for that super pointy, dialed-in front end for Verstappen.
[41:53.400 -> 41:56.680] They set it up for Perez, who's their number one driver,
[41:56.680 -> 41:59.160] and maybe he scrapes a championship.
[41:59.160 -> 42:02.720] But there just isn't that close competition in Formula 1.
[42:02.720 -> 42:04.280] So you kind of, you always get this.
[42:04.280 -> 42:05.680] And we've got Mr.
[42:05.680 -> 42:11.640] Van Bruggen who is a Dutch Verstappen fan in our patron Slack chat and he says it's impressive stats
[42:11.640 -> 42:17.480] but everything would be more impressive if other teams had been on the same level. So there's an
[42:17.480 -> 42:26.400] almost a disappointment from some Verstappen fans that him in his prime in the best car he's probably going to get doesn't really
[42:26.400 -> 42:32.920] get to show off like a 2021 style of performance but you you get that in Formula One. So I
[42:32.920 -> 42:38.000] don't think Verstappen is at all disappointed that he's not getting competition because
[42:38.000 -> 42:44.040] I would argue that he has he's earned his way to this position like you he's not brilliant
[42:44.040 -> 42:47.280] and dominating because he's been gifted something he's in this position because he's earned his way to this position. He's not brilliant and dominating because he's been gifted something, he's in this position
[42:47.280 -> 42:50.000] because he's one of the few drivers who could get to that.
[42:50.000 -> 42:55.920] And so, I can see that kind of disappointment if you feel like his peak is being wasted,
[42:55.920 -> 43:00.280] but what I would say is I think I would rather celebrate those seasons coming up to this
[43:00.280 -> 43:06.080] season than get overly carried away with the statistics from this specific season.
[43:06.080 -> 43:10.560] I think that might get us to the end of Red Bull, you know? I think we might have done
[43:10.560 -> 43:14.560] it. I think we can move on.
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[45:27.760 -> 45:33.160] And when I say move on, I mean move on half a step. So we're going to move to the team that will now be known as, or what are they going to
[45:33.160 -> 45:37.560] be known as, Scuderia Alpha Tauri RB.
[45:37.560 -> 45:41.340] So there was a lot of speculation that they were going to change their name to Racing
[45:41.340 -> 45:46.420] Bulls, but I don't think anybody has actually said what this RB at the end
[45:46.420 -> 45:52.500] of Scuderia Alpha Tauri RB stands for. So that could be Racing Bulls or Red Bull. It's
[45:52.500 -> 45:56.940] going to be one of those two, isn't it? It's not going to be rickshaw boating. It's going
[45:56.940 -> 46:01.380] to be an indication that they're moving much closer to the parent team. Now there's been
[46:01.380 -> 46:05.040] tons of speculation about them now getting more Red Bull
[46:05.040 -> 46:10.880] parts and them collaborating more. I guess my first question to you as a panel is, what is this
[46:11.600 -> 46:19.600] team for? What's the purpose of it? Why haven't they done this sharing stuff more before if they
[46:19.600 -> 46:25.040] could do? And here's the key one, if they get loads of Red Bull parts and are the second fastest
[46:25.040 -> 46:30.000] car next season, what would we think of that? Kyle?
[46:30.000 -> 46:36.960] We've seen teams have close partnerships before previously, I'm not sure we've seen teams
[46:36.960 -> 46:41.880] quite actually outright owned by another team and it's quite obvious, you know we've got
[46:41.880 -> 46:45.040] Mercedes with the Williams sort of link up and previously
[46:45.040 -> 46:48.640] we've had Ferrari and the Sauber and stuff like that. They've been more like sort of
[46:48.640 -> 46:55.160] friends with benefits as such. They've not been completely owned by the other teams,
[46:55.160 -> 46:58.540] but with Alpha Tauri, they actually have the option and it was interesting their design
[46:58.540 -> 47:07.820] choices they made the last year or two because they have the ability to take on quite a lot of Red Bull parts and namely
[47:07.820 -> 47:14.480] gearbox and suspension. But Alpha Tauri decided to not take on the Red Bull suspension and
[47:14.480 -> 47:18.560] gearbox last year because they went for a pull rod at the rear and I believe the Red
[47:18.560 -> 47:22.480] Bull is a push rod but I think that might be changing now for this year and they might
[47:22.480 -> 47:25.360] be taking on more Red Bull sort of centric stuff.
[47:25.360 -> 47:27.840] So this is a bit unsure.
[47:28.760 -> 47:30.680] I'm not sure we've seen this before in Formula 1.
[47:30.680 -> 47:34.760] So in theory, Red Bull don't manage, they don't control Alfa Tauri.
[47:34.760 -> 47:36.280] Alfa Tauri essentially still Minardi.
[47:36.280 -> 47:38.320] They work out of Faenza and they're their own stuff.
[47:38.320 -> 47:40.120] But I think they have an option.
[47:40.280 -> 47:42.880] They have an option to take a lot of the parts.
[47:42.880 -> 47:46.200] And also Red Bull will be clearly pulling the management strings behind the scenes
[47:46.200 -> 47:47.420] for drivers as we've seen.
[47:47.420 -> 47:49.440] So they are very much, I think the closest
[47:49.440 -> 47:50.560] we have ever come in Formula One
[47:50.560 -> 47:52.260] to having a de facto B team.
[47:52.260 -> 47:54.500] And I think it wouldn't be unfair to call them
[47:54.500 -> 47:56.440] Red Bull's B team at all.
[47:56.440 -> 47:58.920] So yeah, if they do start becoming very successful
[47:58.920 -> 48:01.600] next year, there's going to be lots and lots
[48:01.600 -> 48:03.000] and lots of grumblings from the team.
[48:03.000 -> 48:04.040] Cause I believe there's some teams
[48:04.040 -> 48:08.480] grumbling about it already. I'm old enough and definitely ugly enough to have been
[48:08.480 -> 48:14.320] around long enough to have seen this before, as in these claims that they're going to work
[48:14.320 -> 48:21.360] together more closely and I'm sure since the Toro Rosso days there have been times where we've been
[48:21.360 -> 48:25.360] we've been told that okay this next, this is no longer just the junior
[48:25.360 -> 48:31.320] team, you know, closer partnership, working together, and we're going to see Toro Rosso
[48:31.320 -> 48:35.100] or whatever the name is at the time, move up through the grid. And I just don't believe
[48:35.100 -> 48:42.200] it because it is not, even if you gave them a Red Bull, if you gave Alfa Tauri the exact
[48:42.200 -> 48:46.000] car that Red Bull have, I think they're still finishing
[48:46.000 -> 48:49.960] behind with their current driver lineup and the team running the car and
[48:49.960 -> 48:53.400] the team setting up the car. I think they're finishing behind Mercedes and
[48:53.400 -> 49:00.280] Ferrari and potentially McLaren. I don't think having the fastest car isn't
[49:00.280 -> 49:05.920] everything. I think you have to execute and they're not even gonna have the exact same car.
[49:05.920 -> 49:08.520] That is such a big shout Matt, what do you think?
[49:08.520 -> 49:11.160] Well I have to agree.
[49:11.160 -> 49:12.560] Wow, okay.
[49:12.560 -> 49:18.880] I have to agree. They made a big step with their floor, they're obviously moving to be
[49:18.880 -> 49:24.160] able to take as many parts from the big team Red Bull as possible. Haas do this,
[49:24.160 -> 49:26.880] Williams does a lot of this. This is not
[49:26.880 -> 49:33.280] an unknown thing as a midfield team. You take your basic direction from the power unit supplier and
[49:33.280 -> 49:38.720] you buy all the parts you can because it's cheaper to let them design them and then you overlay your
[49:38.720 -> 49:45.480] own aerodynamics on top of that and it makes for some inefficiencies, which is why we won't see them competing with
[49:45.480 -> 49:50.360] the Ferraris and the Mercedes and potentially the McLarens.
[49:50.360 -> 49:57.280] But where the shakeup could come is from, say, the Alpines, from like 6th to 8th.
[49:57.280 -> 49:59.400] They could make a very big step.
[49:59.400 -> 50:04.600] They seem to be showing flashes of that at the end of the season.
[50:04.600 -> 50:06.880] So far, there's no problem with anything
[50:06.880 -> 50:12.800] they're doing. What makes it look suspicious is the funding from the teams comes from the same
[50:12.800 -> 50:19.040] parent corporation, whereas with Haas and the other teams, they're separate corporate entities.
[50:19.040 -> 50:25.040] And I think that's a lot of what has got people upset about this, because they're presuming there will be
[50:30.960 -> 50:33.440] untowards communication of information in both directions, which, well, you know, wouldn't be the first time in Formula One, now would it?
[50:33.440 -> 50:39.120] Just to briefly circle back to the difference in performance over a season that it makes with
[50:39.120 -> 50:42.320] different teams running effectively the same car.
[50:42.320 -> 50:42.800] Yeah, please do.
[50:42.800 -> 50:46.800] Can we... we need to do an episode at some point about cars which
[50:46.800 -> 50:53.680] may well have been championship contenders that we just didn't, we didn't know because they didn't
[50:53.680 -> 51:01.160] have the right drivers in or whatever. Was there a, was there a racing point that Perez was finishing
[51:01.160 -> 51:05.520] fifth or sixth but Verstappen had been in that it would have been winning. For example, think you know what I'm talking about.
[51:05.520 -> 51:10.800] You had to, I hadn't had enough and you had to just take one more dig. But I mean I think the
[51:10.800 -> 51:15.520] best modern example is the 2017 Ferrari. I think that was easily a championship winning car.
[51:16.080 -> 51:18.720] Yeah, was it 2012 or 2013 as well?
[51:19.280 -> 51:20.560] Oh with, with uh...
[51:20.560 -> 51:21.520] Alonso.
[51:21.520 -> 51:24.080] It was 2012. 2013 the Red Bull disappeared.
[51:24.080 -> 51:25.400] He got stuck behind Petrov, remember in the last race? with Alonzo it was 2012 2013
[51:32.320 -> 51:32.920] I'm talking about I mean like midfield cars cars that the the design team will have had no kudos for
[51:38.960 -> 51:39.560] But actually they did a really good job, but okay didn't know about it at all okay, so let's put
[51:43.340 -> 51:43.400] Hulkenberg in Alonzo seat for example this season or Magnussen
[51:50.160 -> 51:56.640] Maybe that might be a better example current form this season Magnussen in with Lance Stroll that Aston Martin looks like it was absolutely nowhere when in fact two Alonso's might have made it p2 in the Constructors
[51:56.640 -> 52:05.760] Championships. It's a fantastic point we we just don't know those cars that were kind of not given the drivers they deserve. I'll probably
[52:05.760 -> 52:13.680] say, you know, maybe the 2008 Ferrari as well. Sorry, it just feels like I'm picking on Ferrari
[52:13.680 -> 52:19.760] because I am. I'll throw the 1995 Ferrari in with that. Oh my god. Actually as well because
[52:19.760 -> 52:22.480] Schumacher tested it and said I wouldn't, I would have won the championship in this car.
[52:23.120 -> 52:26.000] Okay. It's that your drivers just weren't very good. Yeah, well I trust Schumacher tested it and said I would have won the championship in this car. Okay. It's just that your drivers just weren't very good.
[52:26.000 -> 52:29.520] Yeah, well I trust Schumacher's opinion on that I guess.
[52:29.520 -> 52:35.560] So, I am surprised though at the claim that they wouldn't be right up there with the same
[52:35.560 -> 52:36.560] car operationally.
[52:36.560 -> 52:40.920] So there's a few things there, you're talking about the whole team, the whole personnel
[52:40.920 -> 52:45.120] that's there on a race weekend trying to dial it in, the strategists to a
[52:45.120 -> 52:50.520] lesser extent, but really the drivers is the one that we can have the most input on and
[52:50.520 -> 52:54.240] there's going to be a lot of people upset and I'll take it personally because I'm a
[52:54.240 -> 52:59.080] Yuki fan, I'm pushing for Yuki to make it all the way to the top and there's loads of
[52:59.080 -> 53:05.080] Daniel Ricciardo fans as well. So, are you doubting that driver line-up? If you look at the performance
[53:05.080 -> 53:10.680] this season, forgetting Lawson for a second, I mean, Tsunoda was easily faster on race
[53:10.680 -> 53:13.760] pace than Ricciardo's stunted return.
[53:13.760 -> 53:21.440] I don't know if I quite buy into the Ricciardo redemption, even as in, is now level with
[53:21.440 -> 53:26.580] Tsunoda roughly or just behind him. I don't see how you go from
[53:26.580 -> 53:32.580] being so far off of Norris in this generation of cars, this type of car. If we had a complete
[53:32.580 -> 53:36.980] rules reset since then, then maybe this would be different, but it's the same kind of car
[53:36.980 -> 53:43.000] that he was miles off Norrison. And then one year later, year and a bit, with some time
[53:43.000 -> 53:45.120] out, you're kind of,
[53:45.120 -> 53:48.880] oh no, it's okay now. I'm back to where I was before because Red Bull have rebuilt me in the
[53:48.880 -> 53:54.560] simulator. I just don't really buy into that. So if you take, if you were to presume, and this
[53:54.560 -> 54:00.480] might be wrong, that Riccardo's level is the level he showed against Norris, which was a long way
[54:00.480 -> 54:04.800] behind Norris, which is probably roughly, that still looks about right. If he's just behind
[54:04.800 -> 54:08.640] Sunoda, then that, and that would be probably a long way behind Norris, which is probably roughly... that still looks about right. If he's just behind Tsunoda, then that would be probably a long way behind Norris if you're putting everyone on the
[54:08.640 -> 54:16.640] same kind of scale. Then yeah, I do stand by the fact that the drivers would be the main thing
[54:17.280 -> 54:24.720] if they had a Red Bull painted differently that would stop it from being at the very front.
[54:25.760 -> 54:27.920] differently, that would stop it from being at the very front. But you're right though, it's the whole team.
[54:27.920 -> 54:34.060] You won't have the best engineers in every role available to the Red Bull organization
[54:34.060 -> 54:36.000] working at that team, because why would they?
[54:36.000 -> 54:38.000] They'd be opposed to the other team, exactly.
[54:38.000 -> 54:39.000] Matt.
[54:39.000 -> 54:50.800] Well, I would first like to remind everyone that before we had a green Red Bull from Aston, we had a pink Mercedes from Aston, and they failed to beat all of the top
[54:50.800 -> 54:55.600] teams despite actually having been found to have directly copied some of
[54:55.600 -> 55:02.480] Mercedes stuff incorrectly. I'll use that word. And so I think off the
[55:02.480 -> 55:26.800] bat, if we're going to talk about drivers, the thing that's a real plus
[55:26.800 -> 55:34.400] for Yuki, who's still on the rookie side of things in my estimation. And the fact that Ricardo went
[55:34.400 -> 55:38.640] out with the injury and he had multiple rotating teammates means that the development of that car
[55:38.640 -> 55:46.720] was very much on his shoulders, and the car got better. So if you're a Yuki fan, I think there's a lot to take away.
[55:47.280 -> 55:54.880] And the only minor concern is that Ricardo did on a points per finish race, which is a pretty weird
[55:54.880 -> 56:00.960] statistic that I invented because I was tired of all the regular ones, but on a point per finish
[56:00.960 -> 56:06.120] race, Ricardo was slightly ahead of him. So that's going to be a real
[56:06.120 -> 56:11.740] battle to watch next season, Yuki versus Ricardo, because they seem to be as evenly matched
[56:11.740 -> 56:15.420] as the Ocon Gasly and the signs Leclerc points were.
[56:15.420 -> 56:20.460] I actually don't think that was a stellar season for Yuki. I'm a Yuki fan. I want to
[56:20.460 -> 56:25.760] see him do well. But the fact that when Lawson came in, very inexperienced and
[56:26.640 -> 56:31.840] like Yuki did, you expect Yuki to spank him and get all, and be all over the top of him,
[56:31.840 -> 56:36.880] and he wasn't at all, really. Like Lawson come in and did a very, very, very solid job. And
[56:36.880 -> 56:42.800] as Brad points out, you know, I think this is not peak or prime Daniel Ricciardo as well,
[56:42.800 -> 56:45.320] coming in and they've been very, very close. So I
[56:45.320 -> 56:50.160] actually think Lawson coming in, Yuki, it didn't reflect too well on Yuki and I think
[56:50.160 -> 56:54.080] that was a bit of a wake up call for him and he did seem to have a stronger second half
[56:54.080 -> 56:58.240] of the season. So I think for Yuki to stay in Formula One, if I was a team boss, I'd
[56:58.240 -> 57:02.600] be expecting fairly big things from him next year. So it'd be quite interesting. And I
[57:02.600 -> 57:07.520] agree with Brad and Matt. I don't think I think we've seen
[57:07.540 -> 57:10.440] the days of peak Daniel Ricciardo, unfortunately, like
[57:10.440 -> 57:13.800] I like, he didn't do as well as I thought he would when he come
[57:13.800 -> 57:16.840] back. And yeah, I don't really buy his claims. He also said in
[57:16.840 -> 57:20.040] his like first lap in the red bull car, the RB19 we did at
[57:20.040 -> 57:23.240] Silverstone, he would have been like a 10.42 off pole, which I'm
[57:23.240 -> 57:26.720] just like, wow, okay, that's, that's, you know, that's quite a claim.
[57:26.720 -> 57:32.240] Yeah, that's a lie. That's just silly. Okay, so I just want to clarify something. Peter
[57:32.240 -> 57:38.280] in our patron live Slack chat is saying, well, you know, Ricardo had better race pace than
[57:38.280 -> 57:43.880] Tsunoda, but qualifying let him down. So when I talk about the race pace, I'm always, the
[57:43.880 -> 57:45.920] thing I'm looking for is, is there a time
[57:45.920 -> 57:49.000] that they're on a comparable stint in a comparable situation?
[57:49.000 -> 57:52.080] So are they both on the mediums in a race?
[57:52.080 -> 57:57.400] And you know, you're looking at who's dropping off, whose pace drops off, who can stick with
[57:57.400 -> 57:59.820] the pace that they were managing at.
[57:59.820 -> 58:04.600] And just whenever I spotted that, and for sure, I'm not staring at the live timings
[58:04.600 -> 58:05.560] constantly. whenever I spotted that, and for sure I'm not staring at the live timings constantly,
[58:05.560 -> 58:10.040] whenever I've looked at that, because I've been curious, I've not seen Ricciardo able
[58:10.040 -> 58:15.240] to be on the same race pace as Tsunoda, which is a little bit either worrying for Ricciardo
[58:15.240 -> 58:17.960] or great news for Tsunoda.
[58:17.960 -> 58:20.020] Like Brad said, you just can't tell.
[58:20.020 -> 58:30.920] You might put Verstappen and Hamilton in there, and then that car was P4 in the championship. I mean, there's a lot that race pace won't tell you, because there's so many factors,
[58:30.920 -> 58:35.620] especially in this particular set of regulations that go into why someone is faster and why
[58:35.620 -> 58:37.680] someone isn't faster.
[58:37.680 -> 58:40.160] Have you got a two or three second gap to the person ahead of you?
[58:40.160 -> 58:45.920] You might be faster than your teammate who's stuck a second behind 10 cars and is suffering
[58:45.920 -> 58:49.760] from overheating. Did they not get your brakes right, etc. And so on.
[58:49.760 -> 58:54.320] Yeah, but my snapshot that I'm pointing out suits my narrative, and I think that's
[58:55.040 -> 58:56.560] the most important factor.
[58:56.560 -> 59:03.920] Well, it is. But my point being, I think race pace can be a mistaken thing to fixate on when
[59:03.920 -> 59:06.560] you're talking about how drivers do in races.
[59:06.560 -> 59:12.240] One of the things I like about looking at the points, and looking at them in an abstract way,
[59:12.800 -> 59:18.160] is it's sort of a total overall measure of how a driver gets from the start of a race
[59:18.160 -> 59:22.240] to the end of a race. And if you're looking at the teammate, then you know they had roughly
[59:22.240 -> 59:28.420] comparable tools. And so what I see is similar performance between Yuki and Ricardo.
[59:28.420 -> 59:34.340] Now granted, we don't necessarily have the Ricardo of years and years ago, but he's still
[59:34.340 -> 59:40.620] a pretty good racer and a pretty good driver, and clearly in this car has something that
[59:40.620 -> 59:44.980] gives him the touch, the feel that lets him drive much more to his liking than, say, the
[59:44.980 -> 59:48.000] McLaren did, which sort of wrecked his reputation.
[59:48.000 -> 01:00:06.320] But he's still the same driver he was before he went there. So, I don't know, I see, I'm looking at the silver lining here for Yuki, and I'm seeing him being in the ballpark with Riccardo is a good thing for him at his early stage of development. Yeah, and it's probably good for him.
[01:00:06.320 -> 01:00:09.960] He would have been scared seeing Lawson come in and go, the thing with Lawson is he seemed
[01:00:09.960 -> 01:00:11.560] to just get everything right.
[01:00:11.560 -> 01:00:15.240] So he just seemed to, you know, and when he didn't get something wrong, like he got a
[01:00:15.240 -> 01:00:20.560] slightly bad getaway at one race, he's torturing himself for the next two weeks to the point
[01:00:20.560 -> 01:00:24.520] that the race engineer was like, see, see Liam, that was better, wasn't it?
[01:00:24.520 -> 01:00:28.320] You did it. And so, you know, he just seemed to operationally get everything right.
[01:00:28.320 -> 01:00:33.200] Yeah, but I mean, if I look at, I'm looking at Lawson's record right now, he scored two points
[01:00:33.200 -> 01:00:38.160] in Singapore. He scored no points in any other race. Maybe he finished ahead of Yuki. I don't
[01:00:38.160 -> 01:00:43.840] even care. But if I look at Yuki's across the season performance, he scored 14 points
[01:00:45.840 -> 01:00:51.120] look at Yuki's across the season before, he scored 14 points across a whole season in a car that for most of it wasn't capable of scoring very many points. And
[01:00:51.120 -> 01:00:55.600] there was a lot of 11th places in that as well. So I'm just getting back to
[01:00:55.600 -> 01:01:00.320] AlphaTauri. There was a formula1news.co.uk I was reading and this is an
[01:01:00.320 -> 01:01:05.760] interview with Eggington and he said whilst Alpha Tauri has always had close technical ties
[01:01:05.760 -> 01:01:10.000] with Red Bull, Eggington believes that the increased reporting on their collaboration
[01:01:10.000 -> 01:01:15.280] is a result of the sister team's ongoing challenges i.e. not doing very well. He emphasised
[01:01:15.280 -> 01:01:20.480] this was the interesting bit he emphasised that Alpha Tauri has not been controlled entirely by
[01:01:20.480 -> 01:01:25.320] Red Bull and has always had the autonomy to assess which parts to utilise.
[01:01:25.320 -> 01:01:30.080] Which heavily implies that they are controlled quite a bit by Red Bull, which I don't think
[01:01:30.080 -> 01:01:35.880] is controversial. Like you see Marco speaking to the junior drivers on the grid, issuing
[01:01:35.880 -> 01:01:42.880] their instructions, and like, why now? Why now are they going to go to this reported
[01:01:42.880 -> 01:01:45.440] extra collaboration? Why have they been left
[01:01:45.440 -> 01:01:49.280] languishing for several seasons and now they want to get them up the grid?
[01:01:50.240 -> 01:01:55.280] I would simply put it down to the change in Red Bull corporate structure. Before,
[01:01:55.280 -> 01:02:01.360] you had Dietrich Matuschitz making the decisions independently and what he wanted was two real
[01:02:01.360 -> 01:02:05.600] race teams, one to develop junior drivers and one to be a senior team and
[01:02:05.600 -> 01:02:11.840] chase championships. And he felt that a degree, or at least from looking at how it was put together,
[01:02:11.840 -> 01:02:18.560] he felt a degree of autonomy, a fairly large degree of autonomy, was warranted. But now you
[01:02:18.560 -> 01:02:29.000] have a corporation, much more corporate in structure, making these decisions. And what they want to see is monetary and financial efficiencies.
[01:02:29.000 -> 01:02:33.000] In other words, if we're going to spend money on this team,
[01:02:33.000 -> 01:02:38.000] how do we spend as little as possible and have it be as successful as possible?
[01:02:38.000 -> 01:02:42.000] Which is, I think, a different metric to what it had previously been run for.
[01:02:42.000 -> 01:02:44.000] And this is part of why we're seeing it.
[01:02:44.000 -> 01:02:46.240] But, you know, I will, Spanners,
[01:02:46.240 -> 01:02:51.920] put it to you that the Marco thing is pretty interesting, and that he very clearly consults
[01:02:51.920 -> 01:03:00.560] with both teams. And, well, you know, that is a conduit, potentially, and one that you might ask,
[01:03:00.560 -> 01:03:05.120] you know, interesting questions about in terms of his role, especially with the
[01:03:05.120 -> 01:03:07.000] drivers at Alpha Towery.
[01:03:07.000 -> 01:03:08.000] But he's not an employee, apparently.
[01:03:08.000 -> 01:03:09.000] Yeah, he's not an employee.
[01:03:09.000 -> 01:03:13.000] He can do what he likes between them.
[01:03:13.000 -> 01:03:21.000] Okay, so the suspicion is always going to be there that Alpha Towery have a whole other
[01:03:21.000 -> 01:03:22.440] set of resources, Brad.
[01:03:22.440 -> 01:03:25.880] Like, how sure are we that Red Bull don't benefit,
[01:03:25.880 -> 01:03:28.120] like they must benefit from having that team,
[01:03:28.120 -> 01:03:29.880] otherwise why would they have it?
[01:03:29.880 -> 01:03:33.840] They spend all that money just to have their drivers
[01:03:33.840 -> 01:03:35.720] have somewhere to practice?
[01:03:35.720 -> 01:03:39.360] Is it just a team to practice at all that effort for that?
[01:03:39.360 -> 01:03:41.880] Sure, in a cost cap era, you have to question,
[01:03:41.880 -> 01:03:43.440] is there really no way,
[01:03:43.440 -> 01:03:45.520] like at the Red Bull
[01:03:45.520 -> 01:03:50.000] Christmas gathering, they're not going to have a few sherbets and start talking about
[01:03:50.000 -> 01:03:52.720] aerodynamics?
[01:03:52.720 -> 01:03:57.240] Scratching in the sand, little aerodynamic graphs with a stick.
[01:03:57.240 -> 01:03:59.320] So I don't want to be accused of conspiracy.
[01:03:59.320 -> 01:04:01.240] Oh, that's what I was going for.
[01:04:01.240 -> 01:04:02.240] I was luring you in.
[01:04:02.240 -> 01:04:03.640] I thought, he's had enough beers.
[01:04:03.640 -> 01:04:09.040] I can lure him into conspiracy talk. All I will say is, and I think this is
[01:04:09.040 -> 01:04:13.200] fact, so if I'm wrong then you can just discount this entirely because it's not fact,
[01:04:13.200 -> 01:04:19.680] but I'm pretty sure they share wind tunnel time at Red Bull's wind tunnel just north of Bedford.
[01:04:20.320 -> 01:04:22.720] Yeah. That may or may not be true.
[01:04:22.720 -> 01:04:26.000] We have spoken to employees that say it's very segregated you
[01:04:26.000 -> 01:04:32.960] have to log out of one and then log into another yeah no i i haven't i haven't i haven't seen that
[01:04:32.960 -> 01:04:38.000] process okay so i don't know exactly how that is and and like you said i mean are they do they have
[01:04:38.000 -> 01:04:45.840] to sit on separate sides of the canteen when they're both at the wind tunnel lunch. Like just how much, I mean,
[01:04:45.840 -> 01:04:48.920] short of physically handing someone a document
[01:04:48.920 -> 01:04:52.640] which has lots of, you know, serial numbers on
[01:04:52.640 -> 01:04:54.760] that can be very clearly traced back to a thing.
[01:04:54.760 -> 01:04:58.640] Like where, what is the line of information transfer?
[01:04:58.640 -> 01:04:59.480] I don't know.
[01:04:59.480 -> 01:05:01.480] I mean, and I don't want to be someone who's going,
[01:05:01.480 -> 01:05:02.600] I'm just asking questions.
[01:05:02.600 -> 01:05:04.640] Cause that isn't, I'm not that kind of person.
[01:05:04.640 -> 01:05:07.160] That's what flat earthers do. That's what you do.
[01:05:07.160 -> 01:05:14.000] Yeah, so I don't want to be like that. But I also, I haven't, I haven't had it proven
[01:05:14.000 -> 01:05:19.320] to me to a sufficient extent that I'm super confident that there isn't any transfer, particularly
[01:05:19.320 -> 01:05:27.280] when it comes to this team. Like this team, it's not beneath this particular team to stretch the regulations
[01:05:27.280 -> 01:05:34.640] as far as they go. And my point here is, if there is no absolutely clear regulation about
[01:05:34.640 -> 01:05:38.320] the canteen, can you sit next to someone and have a loud conversation? Well, we're not
[01:05:38.320 -> 01:05:41.840] using the same wind, you know, we're not, we're separately logged into the wind tunnel
[01:05:41.840 -> 01:05:45.200] system, but when we walk in the hallway, we chat loudly
[01:05:45.200 -> 01:05:49.760] and the other guys are near. Like, where is the limit? And I think Red Bull would be a team which
[01:05:49.760 -> 01:05:55.200] would very strongly argue, well, if it's not in black and white in the regs, then why can't we do
[01:05:55.200 -> 01:05:59.120] this? Yeah, of course we were doing this because it didn't say we couldn't. And we're all sat here
[01:05:59.120 -> 01:06:05.280] thinking, oh no, they're being really strict about it and there's no way they would ever do anything naughty.
[01:06:05.280 -> 01:06:07.920] Like, I just don't believe sports teams are like that.
[01:06:07.920 -> 01:06:10.240] So when you, yeah.
[01:06:10.240 -> 01:06:13.600] And especially F1 teams that are not just like related,
[01:06:13.600 -> 01:06:16.520] but are part of the same entity,
[01:06:16.520 -> 01:06:19.120] you know, really owned by the same company
[01:06:19.120 -> 01:06:21.720] and working in same facilities, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[01:06:21.720 -> 01:06:23.120] So yeah, that's my view.
[01:06:23.120 -> 01:06:27.400] You can probably understand where I'm going with that.
[01:06:27.400 -> 01:06:31.840] So I believe there is very, very tight regulation
[01:06:31.840 -> 01:06:33.640] of wind tunnel time.
[01:06:33.640 -> 01:06:34.920] I want to know the canteen thing.
[01:06:34.920 -> 01:06:37.200] And CFD time.
[01:06:37.200 -> 01:06:38.760] I'm getting to it.
[01:06:38.760 -> 01:06:42.280] And specifically the transfer of that kind of information.
[01:06:42.280 -> 01:06:46.400] I'm pretty sure there's very black and white lines in the
[01:06:46.400 -> 01:06:51.760] regulations about what you're allowed to share and what you're not allowed to share. And I believe a
[01:06:51.760 -> 01:06:59.760] lot of these lines came about because of the entry of Haas into the sport when there was no regulations
[01:06:59.760 -> 01:07:06.320] for Haas until they actually had a car on the grid. And so they basically did this with Ferrari.
[01:07:06.320 -> 01:07:08.320] Ferrari sent a bunch of engineers.
[01:07:08.320 -> 01:07:10.720] They used the Haas full-size wind tunnel.
[01:07:10.720 -> 01:07:11.840] They sent a bunch of parts.
[01:07:11.840 -> 01:07:14.000] No gardening leave as well.
[01:07:14.000 -> 01:07:17.360] Yeah, and the great news was it gave us a brand new team
[01:07:17.360 -> 01:07:20.640] that was competitive in the midfield P5, P4
[01:07:20.640 -> 01:07:23.120] until the aero regulations changed.
[01:07:23.120 -> 01:07:25.900] But subsequent to that, they updated a lot of stuff.
[01:07:25.900 -> 01:07:28.440] And I know from talking to people who do the software
[01:07:28.440 -> 01:07:31.600] that it's incredibly tightly controlled
[01:07:31.600 -> 01:07:34.300] that kind of information.
[01:07:34.300 -> 01:07:37.300] But what's not controlled is information
[01:07:37.300 -> 01:07:41.540] that third parties have access to, like sponsors.
[01:07:41.540 -> 01:07:44.500] For example, there are always ways
[01:07:44.500 -> 01:07:48.320] for this knowledge to flow between teams.
[01:07:48.880 -> 01:07:52.720] And I would say right now that if you see Alpha Tauri up in third place,
[01:07:53.520 -> 01:07:59.120] then you're going to guess there's perhaps a leak somewhere. That's just my personal gauge.
[01:07:59.120 -> 01:08:04.240] Here's the thing, Carl. I want to focus in on the fact that it's a cost cap era. So for Ferrari,
[01:08:04.240 -> 01:08:07.400] yes, they might have had some commercial partnerships or whatever, but Ferrari
[01:08:07.400 -> 01:08:09.400] could still spend as much as they want.
[01:08:09.400 -> 01:08:14.160] You know, there's an alleged nominal cost cap at the moment.
[01:08:14.160 -> 01:08:18.280] So this is probably why the other teams are having a grumble at the moment.
[01:08:18.280 -> 01:08:19.280] Yeah.
[01:08:19.280 -> 01:08:26.040] So you could argue that AT, Red Bull could use AT to get around some of their cost cap measures.
[01:08:26.120 -> 01:08:30.040] Uh, that's pretty hard back to the HASS thing, like within, within HASS, there
[01:08:30.040 -> 01:08:35.060] were rumors of Ferrari employees quite literally just changing shirts and
[01:08:35.060 -> 01:08:38.640] uniforms into HASS shirts and going in and doing stuff like this.
[01:08:38.680 -> 01:08:40.040] That was a bit more of a gray area.
[01:08:40.040 -> 01:08:47.520] So, um, you know, the last couple of years, AT have been relatively quite independent on an engineering
[01:08:47.520 -> 01:08:54.800] side, purely based on when we went to this 22 regulation concept change, they actually went
[01:08:54.800 -> 01:08:58.720] against Red Bull. They didn't take, they had to make their own gearbox mountings for them because
[01:08:58.720 -> 01:09:06.880] they went for a completely different rear suspension layout. So such as shows they have, they have a degree of engineering independence,
[01:09:06.880 -> 01:09:12.360] but I feel that that will be less independent moving forward and put yourselves into red
[01:09:12.360 -> 01:09:16.240] ball shoes. If you have the opportunity to do this, and there's a bit of a gray area
[01:09:16.240 -> 01:09:20.400] and there's something to exploit, it's Formula One, you can't blame them for exploring the
[01:09:20.400 -> 01:09:25.440] avenues and how to sort of go there. Is it ethical? Yeah, maybe not.
[01:09:25.440 -> 01:09:28.640] Is it explicitly stated in the rules you can't do this?
[01:09:28.640 -> 01:09:30.960] And if it's not, then you will prize
[01:09:30.960 -> 01:09:32.200] and you will try to find a way.
[01:09:32.200 -> 01:09:33.760] It's just the nature of Formula One.
[01:09:33.760 -> 01:09:36.120] But the other teams, if I was another team boss,
[01:09:36.120 -> 01:09:38.960] I'd be feeling quite uncomfortable with it.
[01:09:38.960 -> 01:09:42.120] And I would be doing a Brad maybe and having
[01:09:42.120 -> 01:09:46.360] many loaded questions and asking them about this to try and point it out.
[01:09:46.360 -> 01:09:48.080] But I think like with, you know,
[01:09:48.080 -> 01:09:50.520] the Brad's point about the pushing the limit,
[01:09:50.520 -> 01:09:52.040] you could actually spin that as a positive
[01:09:52.040 -> 01:09:54.560] where Red Bull are notorious for
[01:09:54.560 -> 01:09:56.240] finding the letter of the law
[01:09:56.240 -> 01:09:58.280] and not like the spirit of the law.
[01:09:58.280 -> 01:10:00.920] And you sometimes wonder like if Mercedes are like,
[01:10:00.920 -> 01:10:02.000] oh, we could do that thing.
[01:10:02.000 -> 01:10:03.600] No, but that doesn't seem fair.
[01:10:03.600 -> 01:10:04.920] No, you're absolutely correct.
[01:10:04.920 -> 01:10:10.960] Then they share a cucumber sandwich. So first thing, the canteen conversation,
[01:10:10.960 -> 01:10:18.720] I'm seeing in the chat people saying it's probably not enough to make a championship winning car.
[01:10:18.720 -> 01:10:22.720] My suggestion was purely just that it's, you know, oh yeah I'll have the mashed potato,
[01:10:22.720 -> 01:10:29.840] oh yeah that, when we tried the narrower thingamajiggy bill, it just didn't work very well. Oh, oh, there's
[01:10:29.840 -> 01:10:31.400] a, there's an Alpha Tauri person.
[01:10:31.400 -> 01:10:32.400] Oh, they could be even more.
[01:10:32.400 -> 01:10:33.400] Sorry, I didn't notice.
[01:10:33.400 -> 01:10:37.560] They could be even more clandestine. They could be like, oh, those mashed potatoes look
[01:10:37.560 -> 01:10:44.240] a little wide. I prefer them to be a little narrower towards the rear of my plate. Wink.
[01:10:44.240 -> 01:10:47.000] People shaping their parsnips, sculpting their...
[01:10:47.000 -> 01:10:48.500] That's the one.
[01:10:48.500 -> 01:10:51.500] What was the last thing you just said, Spanners, that I was actually responding to?
[01:10:51.500 -> 01:10:57.500] Oh, about the pushing to the letter of the law rather than this mythical sporting spirit.
[01:10:57.500 -> 01:11:06.600] Yeah, I agree. I'm not saying this is, like, necessarily a bad thing because I just think teams will always do this, so
[01:11:06.600 -> 01:11:12.400] maybe it's just better if all of them are super, you know, on the edge. Same with all
[01:11:12.400 -> 01:11:17.340] the regulations. If everybody is taking the mickey to a certain extent, then maybe that's
[01:11:17.340 -> 01:11:24.160] fairer than assuming the others are going to not take the mickey? So, yeah, I agree
[01:11:24.160 -> 01:11:25.960] with you. That's Alfa Tower-y.
[01:11:25.960 -> 01:11:28.960] ♪ Alfa Tower-y music ♪
[01:11:30.120 -> 01:11:31.820] Okay, so I actually think we've got time
[01:11:31.820 -> 01:11:33.560] to spend a little bit of time on Alpine,
[01:11:33.560 -> 01:11:36.040] and then that just leaves us with McLaren
[01:11:36.040 -> 01:11:40.920] that we'll get to at some point in the new year.
[01:11:40.920 -> 01:11:42.960] So it's coming up to Christmas,
[01:11:42.960 -> 01:11:46.080] so I'll tell you what we've got for your Christmas
[01:11:46.080 -> 01:11:50.320] day and New Year's day but I would like to reiterate that if you're listening to us in
[01:11:50.320 -> 01:11:56.000] the winter you might think that we're doing a good job so there's a couple of ways you can support us.
[01:11:56.000 -> 01:12:02.560] Our bread and butter really is our patrons and that's the reason we can plan a year ahead and I
[01:12:02.560 -> 01:12:06.540] have to say 2023 it was the first season where at the start of the season I went
[01:12:06.760 -> 01:12:09.920] We can definitely do this towards the end of the season
[01:12:09.920 -> 01:12:13.920] we're gonna survive the season without me and Matt having to prioritize other things and
[01:12:14.320 -> 01:12:20.960] We're in a really healthy state and I would love to keep that going if you think we're worth a micro payment per month
[01:12:20.960 -> 01:12:22.800] It's patreon.com
[01:12:22.800 -> 01:12:26.800] Forward slash missed apex every new patron makes my heart go.
[01:12:27.960 -> 01:12:29.920] And that was relax a little bit.
[01:12:30.080 -> 01:12:31.760] Patreon.com forward slash mistake.
[01:12:31.760 -> 01:12:34.920] Pax or if you want to just give us a pat on the head for a job, well done.
[01:12:35.080 -> 01:12:40.120] You can go to our tip jar, which is missed apex podcast.com forward slash tip jar.
[01:12:40.440 -> 01:12:43.680] And there's a link to both of these in your show notes below.
[01:12:44.120 -> 01:12:46.360] And also what else would I want to say?
[01:12:46.360 -> 01:12:48.600] Oh, yes, Christmas content.
[01:12:48.600 -> 01:12:52.120] So this is your fault for being so enthusiastic about this.
[01:12:52.120 -> 01:12:57.560] Chris Stevens and Chris Katmanturna are going to join me for a pre-recorded, to come out
[01:12:57.560 -> 01:13:00.200] on Christmas day, Corner Names podcast.
[01:13:00.200 -> 01:13:03.840] Matt, you can come on that as well if you want to talk about Corner Names.
[01:13:03.840 -> 01:13:07.680] I would love to talk about the numbers that all corners should be called by.
[01:13:07.680 -> 01:13:08.680] Oh my goodness.
[01:13:08.680 -> 01:13:09.680] Yeah, do you know what?
[01:13:09.680 -> 01:13:12.200] I think you can just be the curmudgeon of the show and just sit there.
[01:13:12.200 -> 01:13:13.200] I will.
[01:13:13.200 -> 01:13:14.200] I love that.
[01:13:14.200 -> 01:13:18.000] Every time someone goes, okay, so if we talk about Stowe, and you can be like, turn 11.
[01:13:18.000 -> 01:13:19.360] Okay, okay, okay.
[01:13:19.360 -> 01:13:20.680] Sandoval, turn one.
[01:13:20.680 -> 01:13:24.480] You can just grumpily say the turn number every single time.
[01:13:24.480 -> 01:13:26.880] But Chris and Chris will do that.
[01:13:26.880 -> 01:13:28.840] But also with these winter segments,
[01:13:28.840 -> 01:13:31.840] I want to interview them for five to 10 minutes as well.
[01:13:31.840 -> 01:13:32.680] So you can get to know them
[01:13:32.680 -> 01:13:33.880] because they're really great people.
[01:13:33.880 -> 01:13:36.640] Chris has done a lot of commentary this year.
[01:13:36.640 -> 01:13:39.800] He's gone freelance and Catman is a vet.
[01:13:39.800 -> 01:13:41.140] So he spends a lot of time,
[01:13:42.960 -> 01:13:45.900] I guess, helping animals and stuff, but we'll find out.
[01:13:45.900 -> 01:13:51.320] And then for New Year's Day, I'm going to be talking to Jono about how to improve and
[01:13:51.320 -> 01:13:54.640] make the World Constructors' Championship more important.
[01:13:54.640 -> 01:13:57.040] So lots of stuff like that coming up.
[01:13:57.040 -> 01:14:00.920] Okay, Matt, we've got about 10 minutes on Alpine.
[01:14:00.920 -> 01:14:06.740] They were meant to be the big French explosion, two French drivers.
[01:14:06.740 -> 01:14:12.200] They were going to go charging in with the tricolore and dominate the world as a works
[01:14:12.200 -> 01:14:15.640] team and it just isn't happening.
[01:14:15.640 -> 01:14:16.720] And it hasn't happened.
[01:14:16.720 -> 01:14:18.600] How do you see their season?
[01:14:18.600 -> 01:14:35.000] Okay, this might shock you because there's so many ways you could look at what they did and be thoroughly, utterly disappointed. And I think correctly so. I mean, should we start with the number of people they fired? Should we start with the number of DNFs they had?
[01:14:35.000 -> 01:14:50.400] It was, um, it's the lack of stability at the top has been one of the most shocking things. But one of the most interesting things I think to come out of it, I believe these are comments Pat Fry made, was that when it came time for the, I'm going to use the analogy,
[01:14:50.400 -> 01:14:57.440] rubber to meet the road, the corporate leadership at Renault was not willing to commit to what was
[01:14:57.440 -> 01:15:05.260] necessary to make that next step. And I'm going to take Pat Fry at his word, because he's now at Williams and
[01:15:05.260 -> 01:15:12.820] probably much happier. But given that, if I look at their results, I think, wow, I'm
[01:15:12.820 -> 01:15:18.960] surprised they did that well. And yeah, that's a bit of a lowering of the bar. The other
[01:15:18.960 -> 01:15:25.520] thing I have brought up many times, and I can't wait for Kyle to get into this, is the power unit
[01:15:25.520 -> 01:15:31.760] deficit. Because Renault only has themselves as a customer. They lack the data, and they have said,
[01:15:31.760 -> 01:15:39.200] and I think the teams genuinely agree, they're 20 to 30 horsepower down, two to three tenths
[01:15:39.200 -> 01:15:47.540] a lap down on any other power unit. And if you take that into account as well, well, then they actually kind of had a pretty
[01:15:47.540 -> 01:15:50.920] impressive season, given all that was working against them.
[01:15:51.360 -> 01:15:51.800] Yeah.
[01:15:52.960 -> 01:15:55.800] Well, you say things working against them, their power unit
[01:15:55.800 -> 01:15:58.440] their own doing. Yeah, it's nothing I'm still really
[01:15:58.440 -> 01:16:01.720] working against them as such. But one thing I thought was
[01:16:01.720 -> 01:16:04.200] really interesting with Alpine where the two drivers were
[01:16:04.200 -> 01:16:05.200] incredibly closely matched, probably one of the closest But one thing I thought was really interesting with Alpine, where the two drivers were incredibly
[01:16:05.200 -> 01:16:09.600] closely matched, probably one of the closest matches on the field, but for the actual team
[01:16:09.600 -> 01:16:15.120] itself, that was abysmal, really. That was absolutely terrible. That was, I think, the
[01:16:15.120 -> 01:16:21.280] epitome of a flaccid season. They didn't move forward, they didn't do anything that they've
[01:16:21.280 -> 01:16:28.240] said they've been doing. I remember sitting on this show in 2018, trying to big Renault up, wearing a Renault shirt saying they've
[01:16:28.240 -> 01:16:33.240] got their five-year communist-sounding plan, it's all going to be good, and they've got
[01:16:33.240 -> 01:16:39.760] their Star Driver, and it's not happened, has it? It has absolutely not happened. And
[01:16:39.760 -> 01:16:47.120] the power unit problem is their own. Hence, they don't have any customers because nobody really wants that
[01:16:47.120 -> 01:16:51.680] power unit. They could have now... They've been lobbying to maybe see if they're going to be
[01:16:51.680 -> 01:16:56.480] allowed to catch up and I think that's all kind of fallen on deaf ears really. And now they're
[01:16:57.040 -> 01:17:01.520] looking within themselves. With the turmoil up at the top of the team, they've been going for the
[01:17:01.520 -> 01:17:05.200] Ferrari guillotine management style, it would seem, of just getting
[01:17:05.200 -> 01:17:09.520] rid of people. I'd be amazed if they're on the grid in a couple of years. Like if you
[01:17:09.520 -> 01:17:12.960] were the, you know, if you were holding the purse strings and you're looking at them being,
[01:17:12.960 -> 01:17:17.120] they have, they have been perennial underachievers since they've been in there. You know, this
[01:17:17.120 -> 01:17:21.800] is a works team. This is an integrated works team that do their own power unit and chassis,
[01:17:21.800 -> 01:17:29.120] albeit in two separate different facilities and factories in two different countries. But this is like a we should be looking at like a Mercedes
[01:17:29.120 -> 01:17:34.400] or Ferrari, or like a Red Bull or McLaren. And they're just simply not at that level.
[01:17:34.400 -> 01:17:37.320] And I don't think they're going to have the ability to be at that level in the next couple
[01:17:37.320 -> 01:17:39.800] years, which is a shame because I think they've got two great drivers.
[01:17:39.800 -> 01:17:44.000] Oh, I would agree with you. Actually, they do. One of the interesting...
[01:17:44.000 -> 01:17:45.880] Brad's not gonna agree. Brad doesn't have to agree. He can he can be wrong about you. Actually, they do. One of the interesting... Brad's not going to agree.
[01:17:45.880 -> 01:17:47.520] Brad doesn't have to agree.
[01:17:47.520 -> 01:17:50.040] He can be wrong about everything, right, Kyle?
[01:17:50.040 -> 01:17:51.500] Yes, every time.
[01:17:51.500 -> 01:17:57.180] The thing that I wanted to bring up, what's interesting is this mechanism for balancing
[01:17:57.180 -> 01:18:07.480] the horsepower, balancing the power of the engines, has been an ongoing technical discussion with talk of a
[01:18:07.480 -> 01:18:13.920] specific rule being implemented for the next power units, essentially a way to
[01:18:13.920 -> 01:18:19.160] have an agreed-upon number where if you're below it you're given some
[01:18:19.160 -> 01:18:27.280] freedom in your architecture to catch up to the other power unit manufacturers.
[01:18:27.280 -> 01:18:32.600] But I do see this as being the kind of thing where arguing about the correct way to do
[01:18:32.600 -> 01:18:38.200] it is going to be how they keep it from happening at all, because there's going to be endless
[01:18:38.200 -> 01:18:43.240] arguments about the correct way to test the power of these things, especially with the
[01:18:43.240 -> 01:18:51.000] energy component, the electrical energy component as well, makes it very, very challenging to get an accurate number.
[01:18:51.000 -> 01:19:09.560] And so they're going to use this to delay and deny, while sort of accepting the basic premise that, well, yeah, once again, Renault has showed up with a slightly underpowered engine and it would probably be in everybody's best interest to let them fix it if we could only agree on a way to do it that we didn't think gave somebody else
[01:19:09.560 -> 01:19:10.560] an advantage.
[01:19:10.560 -> 01:19:15.440] The engine, the engine's clearly not there.
[01:19:15.440 -> 01:19:20.040] The management is just a revolving door.
[01:19:20.040 -> 01:19:21.400] There's no stability.
[01:19:21.400 -> 01:19:25.680] There's nobody, nobody consistent there now steering the ship.
[01:19:25.680 -> 01:19:28.240] Yeah, where's the Zac Brown? Where's the Toto Wolf, the Horner?
[01:19:28.880 -> 01:19:36.800] The drivers are fine. That's, you know, they both of them I think are proven not to be elite,
[01:19:36.800 -> 01:19:41.200] but they're both like fine. I think of the two, potentially in the right scenario,
[01:19:41.200 -> 01:19:48.580] Gasly could show a bit more than maybe he has shown but calm down that's it. Ocon had long enough against Perez and didn't
[01:19:48.580 -> 01:19:53.180] dominate him and we know Perez's level and that's in a car that was I
[01:19:53.180 -> 01:19:58.380] think quite neutral. Anyway back to Alpine, I was worried when Renault
[01:19:58.380 -> 01:20:03.300] downgraded it to Alpine and I say downgraded because Alpine is a really
[01:20:03.300 -> 01:20:05.320] small volume car brand.
[01:20:09.680 -> 01:20:10.200] It was, it was always going to be less important that it succeeded
[01:20:11.360 -> 01:20:11.840] under the Alpine name.
[01:20:14.480 -> 01:20:14.560] It, it's not Renault's bread and butter.
[01:20:20.120 -> 01:20:24.080] You know, if, if the Alpine brand folds, then Renault doesn't fold, but it was much more important when it was the factory, the big factory brand.
[01:20:24.080 -> 01:20:25.320] So it seemed like to
[01:20:25.320 -> 01:20:31.100] me they were starting to wind down the importance the moment it changed blue and the budget
[01:20:31.100 -> 01:20:34.400] isn't, they're not funding it enough.
[01:20:34.400 -> 01:20:37.720] Are they not? Are they not maxing out the cost cap?
[01:20:37.720 -> 01:20:43.480] Actually, that's a really good question. From what I heard, the team is underfunded, but
[01:20:43.480 -> 01:20:48.000] I don't have figures. So, you know so I'll leave someone to correct me on that.
[01:20:48.000 -> 01:20:56.000] But basically, I can't see any positive signs. The only positive I can see is that Gasly and Ocon really, really want to do well.
[01:20:56.000 -> 01:21:02.000] That's kind of it. And maybe there's some core, experienced people who have been at the team a long time
[01:21:02.000 -> 01:21:09.200] that are actually very, very good at their job, and I just don't see any potential for it to move higher than it currently is.
[01:21:09.280 -> 01:21:10.400] And that's my worry with Alpine.
[01:21:10.920 -> 01:21:14.000] Well, I think the power unit is, is a very big issue.
[01:21:14.560 -> 01:21:19.680] Uh, but in terms of positive sign for them, Matt Harmon, uh, who, who has been
[01:21:19.680 -> 01:21:26.240] there for a while and is behind, I think a lot of the design genius at Alpine. You say, wait,
[01:21:26.240 -> 01:21:31.040] design genius? Well, guess where the first water slides were? They weren't on Aston.
[01:21:31.040 -> 01:21:36.560] They were on Alpine. There's about three or four design features that have come from Alpine
[01:21:36.560 -> 01:21:39.840] first and made it onto all of the other teams.
[01:21:39.840 -> 01:21:45.200] Yeah, but Minardi occasionally had something which was copied, but it's still rubbish.
[01:21:45.200 -> 01:21:51.120] Okay, so this is the thing. Alpine shouldn't be rubbish. They've got the core ingredients
[01:21:51.120 -> 01:21:58.060] of a great race team. Are they lacking like a James Vowles to come in and do the steadying
[01:21:58.060 -> 01:22:03.160] of the ship kind of thing? Because I think they're in real trouble for next season, because
[01:22:03.160 -> 01:22:07.440] there are other teams that have got their act together. Look at Alpha Tauri, you know, we've been talking about the step they
[01:22:07.440 -> 01:22:12.800] might make. They're not going to catch the front three. McLaren seem completely on it.
[01:22:12.800 -> 01:22:16.960] Aston Martin have really upped their game everywhere. How many teams have I just mentioned?
[01:22:16.960 -> 01:22:20.640] Six. So Alpine are staring down the barrel of seventh.
[01:22:20.640 -> 01:22:25.160] Right now, the problem for Alpine is that their best tracks are
[01:22:25.160 -> 01:22:29.080] going to be the least power sensitive tracks and there's not a whole bunch of
[01:22:29.080 -> 01:22:32.560] them but if I look at their total points scored if I look at where they scored
[01:22:32.560 -> 01:22:39.840] they were nowhere near the top teams but all the teams below them were nowhere
[01:22:39.840 -> 01:22:46.200] near them so I don't take it as a given that they will be chased down for what
[01:22:46.200 -> 01:22:51.520] is it six place that they lived in automatically. It's gonna take one of the
[01:22:51.520 -> 01:22:55.120] teams Alpha Tauri, well you could say buying all the Red Bull stuff and
[01:22:55.120 -> 01:22:59.160] switching to their basic concept might give them that. They are the ones who
[01:22:59.160 -> 01:23:04.320] could have the support but they might be the only ones. No other team really came
[01:23:04.320 -> 01:23:05.680] closer than them. They lived in their
[01:23:05.680 -> 01:23:13.200] own universe. And the thing that's interesting about them, again, is from the aerodynamic design
[01:23:13.200 -> 01:23:18.800] point of view, they do have some consistency and they have a proven record. Because think about how
[01:23:18.800 -> 01:23:23.680] much better they have to be because they don't have the same power as the other teams by like
[01:23:23.680 -> 01:23:30.080] a lot. I mean, we could look at, you know, I'm going to mention Ocon at Monaco, rain, Monaco, least power sensitive circuit at all.
[01:23:30.080 -> 01:23:36.000] They have a car that potentially could compete on an aerodynamic level with some of the bigger
[01:23:36.000 -> 01:23:42.080] teams. They just don't have the rest of the stuff. And as far as funding goes, it's not
[01:23:42.080 -> 01:23:45.280] funding to the cost cap because those are fixed, it's the money
[01:23:45.280 -> 01:23:50.760] that gets spent outside of it. All the tools, the CapEx and the stuff like that. I think
[01:23:50.760 -> 01:23:57.720] that's where they're behind and that's where Renault have been, well, not willing to commit
[01:23:57.720 -> 01:24:00.080] the necessary funds to catch them up.
[01:24:00.080 -> 01:24:04.040] Yeah. I would love to know as well. I would love to know, you know, in the boardroom at
[01:24:04.040 -> 01:24:05.360] the beginning of the season,
[01:24:05.360 -> 01:24:11.560] what is the, what's the aim? What's the target? So are they going into 2024? And they say, right, we must now,
[01:24:11.560 -> 01:24:17.640] we have to break into the top three. Because I think that is probably what it was under a beatable as Renault.
[01:24:17.640 -> 01:24:22.520] And that's the kind of pressure they were under. And eventually, I suppose why he would have moved on.
[01:24:22.520 -> 01:24:29.720] But Alpine under that same kind of pressure. So I think maybe from the outside we're treating them like they should be like
[01:24:29.720 -> 01:24:35.040] Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari, but internally is that the ambition they set? So for them
[01:24:35.040 -> 01:24:39.240] finishing fifth, they might have patted themselves on the back and go, well, good, with the resources
[01:24:39.240 -> 01:24:43.460] that we've set ourselves and our targets, that's where we're at. And then, so we wouldn't
[01:24:43.460 -> 01:24:46.240] be critical of Haas finishing fifth. We wouldn't be critical of Haas finishing fifth.
[01:24:46.800 -> 01:24:49.120] We wouldn't be critical of Sauber finishing fifth.
[01:24:49.200 -> 01:24:53.080] So are we just, you know, angling our expectations wrong, Kyle?
[01:24:53.640 -> 01:24:57.680] No, because this, as far as my understanding is, and in my own head,
[01:24:57.880 -> 01:24:59.480] this is essentially Renault.
[01:24:59.560 -> 01:25:01.240] It's just been rebranded as Alpine.
[01:25:01.320 -> 01:25:05.720] The money's, this is essentially a full factory effort from Renault, just rebranded under Alpine. the money's... This is essentially a full factory effort from Renault,
[01:25:05.720 -> 01:25:07.920] just rebranded under Alpine.
[01:25:08.200 -> 01:25:08.880] They might have called it out.
[01:25:08.880 -> 01:25:12.240] So, so, so yeah, I think fifth place or fifth or sixth in the
[01:25:12.240 -> 01:25:14.040] constructors is, is bad.
[01:25:14.500 -> 01:25:18.320] You know, you can't be, you can't be seen to be a full factory
[01:25:18.320 -> 01:25:20.600] effort and finishing that, that far down.
[01:25:20.600 -> 01:25:23.160] I think their results have been woeful considering for the
[01:25:23.160 -> 01:25:24.240] stature that they should have.
[01:25:24.240 -> 01:25:28.320] And we should very much expect more from them. That's just my opinion, but I think they've been
[01:25:28.320 -> 01:25:33.200] terrible from where they are. They are Renault in my eyes. Okay, I'm trying to look for the positive,
[01:25:33.200 -> 01:25:37.120] and Kyle, you've been the most positive about the Endstone outfit, and Matt has obviously
[01:25:37.120 -> 01:25:42.720] been very positive about them. So what's the silver lining? What gets them over some kind
[01:25:42.720 -> 01:25:46.080] of threshold critically over the next few years? Is there
[01:25:46.080 -> 01:25:52.240] anything where you go, do you know what, actually 2026, Kyle just gave me a look, implies no.
[01:25:52.240 -> 01:26:00.120] They need to be snaffling the odd opportunistic race win and they need to be in the top three,
[01:26:00.120 -> 01:26:05.780] they need to be basically challenging McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes Mercedes, in my opinion, to be deemed a success,
[01:26:05.780 -> 01:26:07.900] but I genuinely don't think they'll be able
[01:26:07.900 -> 01:26:08.740] to get near that.
[01:26:08.740 -> 01:26:11.060] Do you think Andretti might buy them?
[01:26:11.060 -> 01:26:13.060] Do you think, because the management are just like,
[01:26:13.060 -> 01:26:14.260] they've just noped out,
[01:26:14.260 -> 01:26:16.100] and they did have a potential engine deal
[01:26:16.100 -> 01:26:17.860] with Andretti on the cards.
[01:26:17.860 -> 01:26:22.860] So do you think if it's a solid no from getting in to F1
[01:26:22.940 -> 01:26:24.540] as an 11th team,
[01:26:24.540 -> 01:26:25.920] that they actually just make an offer
[01:26:25.920 -> 01:26:30.080] for that team. They're in the right country. You know, they're in the heart of F1, and
[01:26:30.080 -> 01:26:35.320] Enstone, lovely place in the Cotswolds. Yeah, good, good place to have your, your Andretti
[01:26:35.320 -> 01:26:36.320] bases.
[01:26:36.320 -> 01:26:41.120] The Cotswolds is lovely. You know, one thing we're not talking about, Alpine's new lovely
[01:26:41.120 -> 01:26:44.480] investor group with hundreds of millions of dollars.
[01:26:44.480 -> 01:26:45.500] With the sports people.
[01:26:45.500 -> 01:26:46.500] And Ryan Reynolds.
[01:26:46.500 -> 01:26:47.500] Yeah.
[01:26:47.500 -> 01:26:51.800] And Rexxum, let's not forget, they did like have some success with that.
[01:26:51.800 -> 01:26:54.560] So you know, like I had forgotten about that.
[01:26:54.560 -> 01:26:55.560] Yeah, good point.
[01:26:55.560 -> 01:26:56.560] But you mentioned that.
[01:26:56.560 -> 01:26:58.880] I was suddenly like, well, would Andriadi buy it?
[01:26:58.880 -> 01:27:02.400] Well, I'm like, would that investor group sell it so soon?
[01:27:02.400 -> 01:27:03.480] I'm not sure they would.
[01:27:03.480 -> 01:27:06.720] So do you reckon there's going to be some Netflix documentary, like,
[01:27:06.720 -> 01:27:08.480] The Only Way is Alpine or something like that?
[01:27:08.480 -> 01:27:09.760] Welcome to Edinstone.
[01:27:09.760 -> 01:27:13.200] Welcome to Edinstone, I love that. Yeah, yeah. Alpine, sure.
[01:27:13.760 -> 01:27:20.480] I cannot wait, but it's going to be hard to move them. I could see them moving a step down,
[01:27:20.480 -> 01:27:25.280] but in the same general points category, with Alpha Tauri coming on with all the help
[01:27:25.280 -> 01:27:31.020] from Red Bull, which is allowed, and certainly entirely legal and our lawyers have informed
[01:27:31.020 -> 01:27:34.940] us allegedly should be used here somewhere.
[01:27:34.940 -> 01:27:40.120] But it's going to be hard for them in their current setup to make much forward progress.
[01:27:40.120 -> 01:27:44.180] Until they get the engine fixed, I think they're in a very tough place.
[01:27:44.180 -> 01:27:49.600] Well, they could just change their name to be more successful, to give them a kick, to
[01:27:49.600 -> 01:27:52.440] improve their stakes.
[01:27:52.440 -> 01:27:54.200] We can't leave, can we?
[01:27:54.200 -> 01:27:55.200] That's a sauce, right?
[01:27:55.200 -> 01:27:56.200] Tell me that's a sauce.
[01:27:56.200 -> 01:27:59.360] We can't leave without talking about the official team names.
[01:27:59.360 -> 01:28:04.240] But before we do, I just want to refer you to these two gentlemen here.
[01:28:04.240 -> 01:28:06.040] You follow me and Matt already.
[01:28:06.040 -> 01:28:08.880] Brad's actually disappeared, making our screen look weird.
[01:28:08.880 -> 01:28:11.400] But Kyle, the people can see half of you.
[01:28:11.400 -> 01:28:14.920] So how are you getting on with the MotoGP podcast?
[01:28:14.920 -> 01:28:18.600] And MissedApexMotoGP, and have you got any off-season content
[01:28:18.600 -> 01:28:19.600] planned?
[01:28:19.600 -> 01:28:20.960] Yes, that's been going very well.
[01:28:20.960 -> 01:28:22.120] Thank you.
[01:28:22.120 -> 01:28:26.240] We do have a few off-season content shows planned where we could
[01:28:26.240 -> 01:28:32.320] be doing a bit of a testing review and looking forward to the new season coming up. That should
[01:28:32.320 -> 01:28:36.400] be with you sometime in January so I've been very much enjoying that and I will implore you all,
[01:28:37.040 -> 01:28:41.680] this will be a great season to get into MotoGP and you can have something else to listen to
[01:28:41.680 -> 01:28:47.360] on a Tuesday morning commute rather than a Monday morning commute. Oh well there you go and go and check out the the last episode where they basically
[01:28:47.360 -> 01:28:53.200] did a bit of a season wrap up as well as the as well as the race review as well. Kyle's the host
[01:28:53.200 -> 01:28:58.960] and he's fine. Has Brad gone? Have we lost Brad? Have we got his audio? No I think we've lost him
[01:28:58.960 -> 01:29:03.120] but go and check out his stuff. His links will all be in the show notes below. He's got a pretty good
[01:29:03.120 -> 01:29:05.360] YouTube channel and I
[01:29:05.360 -> 01:29:09.360] think that he's going to be doing a bit of a step up in his driver coaching. So if you're interested
[01:29:09.360 -> 01:29:15.520] in getting good in a car or on a sim or in a go-kart, Brad is definitely the person to speak to.
[01:29:16.320 -> 01:29:21.120] Since he's not here, is now the time to point out that both Alpine drivers have actually won races,
[01:29:21.120 -> 01:29:25.400] while Norris still hasn't? No, you should have picked that fight with him
[01:29:25.400 -> 01:29:26.280] when he was here.
[01:29:26.280 -> 01:29:28.800] But we've got loads of off-season time.
[01:29:28.800 -> 01:29:31.080] So when I said we were going to do the Christmas content
[01:29:31.080 -> 01:29:34.340] with Chris and Chris, and then with Jono,
[01:29:34.340 -> 01:29:35.840] the next one we're going to line up
[01:29:35.840 -> 01:29:38.560] is Brad, who's going to do a bit of a driving masterclass.
[01:29:38.560 -> 01:29:41.640] So we'll talk a bit about basic driving skills.
[01:29:41.640 -> 01:29:44.480] And those are always fantastic episodes.
[01:29:44.480 -> 01:29:45.440] But Kyle,
[01:29:46.080 -> 01:29:57.920] Kick Steak F1 Team, Steak F1 Team Kick Sauber is the new team of what was Alfa Romeo F1 Team Kick.
[01:29:59.600 -> 01:30:00.480] That naming is a...
[01:30:01.120 -> 01:30:01.840] It's atrocious!
[01:30:02.720 -> 01:30:09.280] It's an absolute catastrophe. It's like, what an awful, awful naming convention.
[01:30:09.480 -> 01:30:13.200] I never bought into Alfa Romeo, even though I wasn't Alfa Romeo driver at the time.
[01:30:13.200 -> 01:30:14.680] I had my beautiful one five nine.
[01:30:15.200 -> 01:30:19.080] And when they changed that, it didn't make me think any more of like, Oh, look at that.
[01:30:19.080 -> 01:30:24.040] I'm driving a Formula One manufacturer because Alfa Romeo, Sauber was more out
[01:30:24.040 -> 01:30:25.160] about as Alfa Romeo as FedEx were as more out about as Alfa Romeo as
[01:30:25.160 -> 01:30:26.320] FedEx were federal.
[01:30:26.360 -> 01:30:29.680] It's just a title sponsorship naming convention.
[01:30:29.720 -> 01:30:30.480] They are Sauber.
[01:30:30.680 -> 01:30:33.800] They've always been Sauber and they will continue to be Sauber.
[01:30:33.800 -> 01:30:40.040] And I refuse, I'm not going to call them steak, kick, team, whatever they're called.
[01:30:40.640 -> 01:30:41.880] Like, yeah, they're Sauber.
[01:30:42.280 -> 01:30:45.800] I, I actually, I slightly disagree with this.
[01:30:45.800 -> 01:30:53.440] So my basic premise is the fact that they were called Alfa Romeo F1 team, etc, etc,
[01:30:53.440 -> 01:30:54.440] etc.
[01:30:54.440 -> 01:30:59.160] And now they're called Stake F1 team, etc, etc, etc.
[01:30:59.160 -> 01:31:03.360] So I really do believe that the team name is Stake F1.
[01:31:03.360 -> 01:31:06.640] And if it isn't, basically Sauber have just
[01:31:06.640 -> 01:31:11.420] got the naming conventions wrong. All the other teams are, the thing they are, racing.
[01:31:11.420 -> 01:31:16.520] So Williams Racing, Red Bull Racing. Or with the Italian teams, you've got Scuderia Ferrari,
[01:31:16.520 -> 01:31:22.880] Scuderia Alpha Tauri, and a lot of the teams are something, something F1. And if it's a
[01:31:22.880 -> 01:31:25.600] partnership, then if they like mercedes say
[01:31:25.600 -> 01:31:31.120] patronus is an engineering partnership so it's mercedes patronus f1 but here the naming convention
[01:31:31.120 -> 01:31:37.840] is clear they've said stake f1 team the name of the team that is stake f1 and i've i will
[01:31:37.840 -> 01:31:43.040] stubbornly call them that all season except for the few races where their kick f1 team
[01:31:43.040 -> 01:31:45.040] apparently is also going to happen.
[01:31:45.040 -> 01:31:46.040] It's awful.
[01:31:46.040 -> 01:31:47.040] Start to finish.
[01:31:47.040 -> 01:31:49.360] It's a nightmare for me.
[01:31:49.360 -> 01:31:53.600] You probably don't know this, but over here in the States, what you call HP sauce over
[01:31:53.600 -> 01:31:55.160] there, we call A1 sauce.
[01:31:55.160 -> 01:31:56.160] Right.
[01:31:56.160 -> 01:31:57.160] Really?
[01:31:57.160 -> 01:31:58.160] Okay.
[01:31:58.160 -> 01:31:59.160] And we usually put it on steak.
[01:31:59.160 -> 01:32:02.920] So calling something steak F1 makes me think it's just something I should be putting on
[01:32:02.920 -> 01:32:03.920] like meat.
[01:32:03.920 -> 01:32:07.160] No, it's steak like a vampire steak.
[01:32:07.160 -> 01:32:08.600] I know, I know.
[01:32:08.600 -> 01:32:10.880] And I will hand it to them.
[01:32:10.880 -> 01:32:14.680] At least it's online betting and not cryptocurrency.
[01:32:14.680 -> 01:32:16.280] Oh, no, that's a common misconception.
[01:32:16.280 -> 01:32:19.920] It isn't actually online betting because there was a statement released.
[01:32:19.920 -> 01:32:20.600] No, no, no.
[01:32:20.600 -> 01:32:30.920] There was a statement released by the CEO, Abraham Van Helsing, and he was very clear that it is a stake, as in it's a very vampire-killing-heavy theme to it.
[01:32:30.920 -> 01:32:37.480] Ah, yes, I see. Weirdly, both kick a streaming, some sort of streaming addition. They call
[01:32:37.480 -> 01:32:41.120] it streaming addition, but I don't think they mean like teaching little kids how to add
[01:32:41.120 -> 01:32:47.120] numbers together. And the stake company are owned by the same larger
[01:32:47.120 -> 01:32:53.920] Australian corporation, but they are quote-unquote independent companies. I like it that the chassis
[01:32:53.920 -> 01:32:58.720] is called Kick though. Do you think it gets a little nameplate? Yeah, a little kick on that.
[01:32:58.720 -> 01:33:03.040] It says Kick on it? Yeah. Yeah. So look, and here's where I fundamentally disagree with you
[01:33:03.040 -> 01:33:09.560] though, Kyle. I don't think there is. So correct, tell me why I'm wrong. I don't think Salba exists. Salba exists to
[01:33:09.560 -> 01:33:14.680] facilitate a team who wants to come in and have an F1 team without doing any of the work.
[01:33:14.680 -> 01:33:19.080] Salba is the team and to survive, Salba have to be some of the biggest sellouts on the
[01:33:19.080 -> 01:33:23.560] grid. So Salba are like the people who tattoo companies names on their forehead for a few
[01:33:23.560 -> 01:33:25.120] bob. I think they're just
[01:33:25.120 -> 01:33:29.600] going to completely sell out but it's still Sauber engineering. Sauber, they're still in Hinwill,
[01:33:29.600 -> 01:33:35.680] I believe, in Switzerland. They're still there. It is Sauber, it just, you know, do we think that
[01:33:35.680 -> 01:33:40.240] Johnny Marketing with his money is going to come in there and roll his sleeves up and jump on a
[01:33:40.240 -> 01:33:44.880] lathe or a mill or something to actually start making parts or designing parts? No, that's just
[01:33:44.880 -> 01:33:47.920] like with Alfa Romeo. They didn't touch or get anywhere near the cars,
[01:33:47.920 -> 01:33:51.120] there's a bunch of suits with a load of money. So that's why I'm not buying into it. So I think
[01:33:51.120 -> 01:33:58.320] Salba very much do still exist, but they just have to pretty much sell their souls to survive.
[01:33:58.320 -> 01:33:59.200] But it's still Salba.
[01:33:59.200 -> 01:34:01.840] Joe Amditis And so instead of having 17 drivers,
[01:34:02.960 -> 01:34:06.120] now they just have 37 sponsors. Well, okay, I kind of see that.
[01:34:06.280 -> 01:34:07.400] That was Castleborn, wasn't it?
[01:34:07.400 -> 01:34:11.560] I remember that with the debacle, all the drivers turning up to race at the same pace.
[01:34:11.960 -> 01:34:12.960] Brad, what are we calling them?
[01:34:13.520 -> 01:34:14.520] Forget these losers.
[01:34:14.560 -> 01:34:15.080] You and me.
[01:34:15.080 -> 01:34:20.920] I'm going to call them whatever they end up coming up on the screen as.
[01:34:21.200 -> 01:34:22.120] Yeah, good point.
[01:34:22.120 -> 01:34:22.680] Broadcast.
[01:34:22.680 -> 01:34:28.000] So I'm going to just be massively rubbish and wait for that. Right now, I'm
[01:34:28.000 -> 01:34:32.760] referring to the Sauber because I've, I don't even know, I don't know what to say about
[01:34:32.760 -> 01:34:37.640] the other, it's just, to me, it's just, I'm with Kyle as a sponsor. But if it comes up
[01:34:37.640 -> 01:34:42.880] on the screen as stake F1, in the, then in the same way that I probably referred to Alfa
[01:34:42.880 -> 01:34:49.840] Romeo as Alfa Romeo, even though they were just a sponsor, then they've bought the right to be the name of the team. That's like
[01:34:49.840 -> 01:34:54.120] part of it. So whether or not they are just a sponsor, you know, like Kyle says, they're
[01:34:54.120 -> 01:34:59.520] not actually in there doing up the nuts and bolts in the factory. But if that's what the
[01:34:59.520 -> 01:35:03.960] team's called officially, then that's what I'll probably refer to it as. But it's only
[01:35:03.960 -> 01:35:06.480] a year or is it two years until Audi come in?
[01:35:06.480 -> 01:35:11.680] Yeah, I think it's only a year. I think it's two years. And then Audi takeover in the boardroom.
[01:35:11.680 -> 01:35:16.000] What I want to know is, because we were looking into this because obviously we had our WhatsApp
[01:35:16.000 -> 01:35:18.160] conversation, our civil chat about this.
[01:35:18.160 -> 01:35:21.120] We had about a two hour argument about this on WhatsApp.
[01:35:21.120 -> 01:35:26.160] And I delved into it a little bit to find out who actually does own the team and
[01:35:26.160 -> 01:35:34.240] it's been this investment company for quite a while. So not Peter Sauber? Not Peter Sauber,
[01:35:34.240 -> 01:35:40.480] yeah, for quite a long time and even now Audi only have a minority share in it. Does anyone know
[01:35:40.480 -> 01:35:46.240] when Audi become the official team in a couple of years, are they then, is there like
[01:35:46.240 -> 01:35:51.440] a clause where then they buy the majority share, or is it still just that they own a
[01:35:51.440 -> 01:35:56.960] small amount and this investment company is the main owner?
[01:35:56.960 -> 01:35:59.480] That's a really interesting question.
[01:35:59.480 -> 01:36:05.380] I believe that Audi are buying 25% stake per year. But what I don't know...
[01:36:05.380 -> 01:36:07.580] Yeah, I know, you like that, right?
[01:36:07.580 -> 01:36:09.180] Yeah, just stick around.
[01:36:09.180 -> 01:36:11.580] This is not my first rodeo, my friends.
[01:36:11.580 -> 01:36:14.380] What I don't know is whether they're buying
[01:36:14.380 -> 01:36:16.580] controlling shares, as in they control it,
[01:36:16.580 -> 01:36:19.780] or whether they're actually buying out Longbow,
[01:36:19.780 -> 01:36:22.780] who I think are the majority owners currently.
[01:36:22.780 -> 01:36:28.400] Because if we've learned anything from watching Bernie Eccleston and his companies,
[01:36:28.400 -> 01:36:33.800] is there's a lot of ways to structure stuff so everyone can technically say they're in charge of things.
[01:36:33.800 -> 01:36:36.600] Audi will be doing the day-to-day running.
[01:36:36.600 -> 01:36:38.400] They will be putting all the money in.
[01:36:38.400 -> 01:36:41.600] But whether they own it in the sense that Longbow does now,
[01:36:41.600 -> 01:36:44.100] that's an answer that I don't actually have right now.
[01:36:44.100 -> 01:36:46.520] So, maybe something to look up for a future show.
[01:36:46.520 -> 01:36:47.960] Okay, you should have just guessed.
[01:36:47.960 -> 01:36:49.580] And then if people complained,
[01:36:49.580 -> 01:36:50.680] just shrugged our shoulders
[01:36:50.680 -> 01:36:53.220] or never responded to those complaints.
[01:36:53.220 -> 01:36:55.640] I'd like, we will try to respond
[01:36:55.640 -> 01:36:59.080] if you do email us at feedback at missedapex.net.
[01:36:59.080 -> 01:37:00.880] We absolutely love hearing from you,
[01:37:00.880 -> 01:37:02.720] especially in the off season
[01:37:02.720 -> 01:37:04.760] when the inbox can be a little quieter
[01:37:04.760 -> 01:37:08.800] and have a bit more time to answer people. Go and follow Brad at Brad Philpott. Brad,
[01:37:08.800 -> 01:37:13.440] whilst you dropped out earlier, I promised everyone early in the new year that we would have a
[01:37:13.440 -> 01:37:18.560] driver skills programme, so a Bradley Philpott driver masterclass, and we'll talk about some
[01:37:18.560 -> 01:37:27.200] of the coaching you do as well and give people an opportunity to get hired, to get hired, to hire the skills of one of the best
[01:37:27.200 -> 01:37:32.320] coaches the planet's ever seen. And just whilst we're doing a bit of shameless promo, if my
[01:37:32.320 -> 01:37:38.560] computer works, I'm starting or trying to start a YouTube series from Tuesday, hopefully running
[01:37:38.560 -> 01:37:45.800] every Tuesday, called Phil Bradpott's Rookie Reset. Yes. So follow me with my pseudonym,
[01:37:45.800 -> 01:37:48.680] trying to make my way through the rookie classes
[01:37:48.680 -> 01:37:50.280] on iRacing without,
[01:37:50.280 -> 01:37:51.880] it's kind of just a very lighthearted,
[01:37:51.880 -> 01:37:54.440] chilled out live stream where it doesn't matter
[01:37:54.440 -> 01:37:56.520] if it all goes wrong, which it probably will.
[01:37:56.520 -> 01:37:58.280] Yeah, yeah, that's more entertaining if it does.
[01:37:58.280 -> 01:38:00.020] So catch Brad early in the new year as well,
[01:38:00.020 -> 01:38:01.280] back in the shed.
[01:38:01.280 -> 01:38:02.440] Kyle, of course, we spoke to,
[01:38:02.440 -> 01:38:05.240] but go and follow him at KylePowerF1
[01:38:05.240 -> 01:38:11.560] follow Matt at MattPT55 on Twitter. That's the one. You look like you're gonna say
[01:38:11.560 -> 01:38:16.600] add a thing and on threads or whatever. Yeah I could no not a thread it's just
[01:38:16.600 -> 01:38:20.200] our upcoming January 7th performance at City Winery with the New York City
[01:38:20.200 -> 01:38:24.360] Scott Orchestra. Please do come and say hi to me there it's a pretty cool place.
[01:38:24.360 -> 01:38:27.920] I'm sure he'll sneak a link into the show notes as well. But of course, follow me at
[01:38:27.920 -> 01:38:34.280] Spanners Ready, of course, of course. And do consider being a patron or knocking on
[01:38:34.280 -> 01:38:38.840] our tip jar door, patreon.com forward slash Miss Apex. There will be some extra content
[01:38:38.840 -> 01:38:47.160] there as well. You'll join our wonderful Slack F1 chat and never hear an ad again on Miss Daypex podcast until we see
[01:38:47.160 -> 01:38:51.360] you next which I think will be Christmas Day but not live we won't be live again until
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[01:41:40.620 -> 01:41:42.300] Hello, I'm Danny Pellegrino,
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[01:41:44.800 -> 01:41:46.640] In this holiday season, I'm Danny Pellegrino, host of the Everything Iconic podcast. In this holiday season, I'm
[01:41:46.640 -> 01:41:50.760] once again joined by my buddy, writer and comedian Jenna Brister.
[01:41:50.760 -> 01:41:52.480] Hey, Danny, happy holidays!
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[01:42:46.480 -> 01:42:48.440] Don't sneak a look at the presents
[01:42:48.440 -> 01:42:49.920] under the Christmas tree.
[01:42:49.920 -> 01:42:52.700] And don't panic about Christmas presents
[01:42:52.700 -> 01:42:53.840] because if you haven't got them all,
[01:42:53.840 -> 01:42:56.160] it's too late and everyone will know
[01:42:56.160 -> 01:42:58.260] that you don't love them very much.
[01:42:58.260 -> 01:43:00.640] Don't drink too much, unless it's Christmas,
[01:43:00.640 -> 01:43:02.400] in which case go nuts.
[01:43:02.400 -> 01:43:06.700] Don't, I'm just trying to, I like the life advice. Don't get drunk twice in one
[01:43:06.700 -> 01:43:13.480] day and then appear on an F1 podcast. Nothing good happens after midnight Kyle and jet lag
[01:43:13.480 -> 01:43:15.120] can be cured with whisky according to me.
[01:43:16.570 -> 01:43:18.630] you