Pre-Season News Ticker Jan 22nd 2023

Spanners and Trumpets are joined by Danish TV journo Kristian Pedersen and Dutch journalist Jules Seegers as they find all the free F1 food. From contested contracts to Mercedes’ mistake, from maximum Max to panel predictions, no catering cupcake goes unconsumed in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast. (Note: we're aware that some of those listening on higher end systems may experience a small infrequent audio imperfection on this episode. We have identified the issue for future recordings)

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Spanners Ready Spanners���� (@SpannersReady)

spanners@missedapex.net

Matt Trumpets mattpt55 (@mattpt55)

matt@missedapex.net

Matt Trumpets (@mattpt55@mastodon.social)

Kristian Pedersen krede (@ikrede) / Twitter

Jules Seegers Jules Seegers (@JulesSeegers) / Twitter

Mike Elliot interview in Motorsport How one wrong simulation answer triggered key mistake with Mercedes' W13 design

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**Missed Apex Podcast: Episode Transcript Analysis**

**Introduction:**

* The hosts, Spanners, Matt Trumpets, Kristian Pedersen (Danish TV journalist), and Jules Seegers (Dutch journalist), discuss the latest Formula One news and controversies.
* They also address some fair criticism they received from listeners regarding their previous episode on porpoising.

**Big Dirty News:**

* **Nick de Vries' Lawsuits:**
* De Vries is facing two lawsuits related to a loan he took out in 2018 to help fund his Formula 2 career.
* The investor who provided the loan is claiming that De Vries owes him 50% of his Formula One income for 2023, as per the terms of the loan agreement.
* De Vries argues that he does not owe the money because he did not have a Formula One seat in 2022, as defined in the agreement.
* The case is currently being heard in a Dutch court.

* **Mercedes' Side Pods:**
* There has been speculation that Mercedes will abandon its zero-side pod design for the 2023 season.
* However, the hosts believe that Mercedes will stick with the concept, despite its challenges.
* They argue that Mercedes has found solutions and upgrades that are not visible in the bodywork and that they are determined to make the design work.

**Other Topics Discussed:**

* **Porpoising:**
* The hosts acknowledge that they made some errors in their previous discussion of porpoising.
* They clarify that porpoising is not specifically a function of temperature and that it is a complex issue with multiple contributing factors.

* **Weight and Mass:**
* The hosts respond to a listener's criticism that they were too loose in their definition of weight and mass when discussing understeer.
* They acknowledge that they should have been more precise in their terminology and that they will strive to do better in the future.

**Conclusion:**

* The hosts wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of listener feedback and their commitment to improving the quality of the podcast.
* They also encourage listeners to send in their mailbag questions and to support the podcast through Patreon or their Tip Jar.

**Overall:**

The episode provides an informative and engaging discussion of the latest Formula One news and controversies. The hosts demonstrate their knowledge and expertise in the sport and are able to provide insightful analysis and commentary. They also show a willingness to acknowledge and correct their mistakes, which is commendable. Overall, the episode is a valuable resource for Formula One fans who want to stay up-to-date on the latest developments in the sport. 1. **Mercedes' 2023 Car Issues:**
- The article suggests that Mercedes' struggles in the 2023 season might be due to an error in simulations, specifically regarding the floor design.
- Matt McLaughlin argues that the simulations are only as good as the information given to them and that it's possible that a modeling error led Mercedes to believe they could run the car at a height that wasn't feasible in real-world conditions.


2. **Ferrari Hype Train:**
- Jules Seegers and Christian commend Ferrari's impressive simulated performance, but caution against getting carried away with hype.
- They emphasize the need for Ferrari to translate these simulations into actual on-track performance and consistency throughout the season.


3. **Lewis Hamilton as Mercedes' Number One Driver:**
- Matt McLaughlin asserts that Lewis Hamilton is the number one driver at Mercedes, citing his long tenure, experience, and status within the team.
- He believes that Mercedes designs and operates with Hamilton as their primary focus, despite their stated policy of equal treatment for both drivers.


4. **George Russell's Role at Mercedes:**
- Christian agrees that Hamilton is the number one driver, acknowledging that there could be a Bottas-esque situation if Russell struggles to match Hamilton's performance.
- However, Matt McLaughlin emphasizes that this shouldn't diminish Russell's talent, as he might be in a support role due to Mercedes' focus on Hamilton.


5. **Toto Wolff and Lewis Hamilton's Potential Retirement:**
- Christian speculates that Toto Wolff and Lewis Hamilton might be considering retirement after achieving their eighth championship titles.
- He suggests that James Vowles could be groomed to replace Wolff as the team principal, leading a new era with George Russell as the primary driver.


6. **Max Verstappen's Phenomenon:**
- Matt McLaughlin proposes that Max Verstappen's effectiveness might have reached its peak, despite his immense talent.
- He argues that Verstappen's aggressive and uncompromising driving style, which initially gave him an edge, might become less effective as other drivers adapt and become more assertive against him.


7. **The Verstappen Effect:**
- Matt McLaughlin clarifies that he is not referring to Verstappen's driving talent but rather the impact his presence has on other drivers and race officials.
- He suggests that Verstappen's past actions have influenced rule changes and officiating decisions, and that he might face increased scrutiny and less leniency from stewards in the future. ## Episode Overview:

The podcast episode delves into various topics related to Formula One racing, including:

1. **Mercedes' Mistake with the W13 Design:**
- A simulation error led to an incorrect answer, which resulted in a crucial mistake in the design of Mercedes' W13 car.
- This mistake significantly affected the team's performance during the 2022 season.

2. **Max Verstappen's Dominance:**
- Verstappen's aggressive driving style and ability to adapt to different conditions have contributed to his success.
- Verstappen's maturity and improved racecraft have made him a formidable competitor.
- Some believe that Verstappen may eventually lose interest in Formula One if he continues to dominate.

3. **Red Bull's Aggressive Tactics:**
- Red Bull's tactics, including pressuring race directors and using media to their advantage, have been criticized by some.
- Red Bull's approach has been effective in securing two consecutive world championships.

4. **The Importance of Challenges:**
- Verstappen's motivation may be affected if he faces fewer challenges in the future.
- A change of team could provide Verstappen with new challenges and keep him interested in the sport.

5. **Lewis Hamilton's Evolution:**
- Hamilton has matured as a driver and become more strategic in his approach to racing.
- Hamilton's ability to conserve tires and make calculated decisions has contributed to his success.
- Hamilton's motivation may be waning as he approaches the end of his career.

6. **Politics in Formula One:**
- The FIA's ban on political, religious, and personal statements without prior approval has sparked controversy.
- The ban aims to maintain neutrality in the sport and avoid political controversies.
- However, some argue that drivers should have the freedom to express their personal views.
- The timing of the ban has raised suspicions that it specifically targets LGBTQ+ rights activism.

7. **The Future of Wind Tunnels in Formula One:**
- Discussions are underway to ban wind tunnels in Formula One in pursuit of carbon neutrality.
- Wind tunnels are expensive and resource-intensive, and CFD simulation is becoming more advanced.
- Eliminating wind tunnels could lead to more random problems and correlation issues between design and track performance.
- Aerodynamicists may resist the ban as wind tunnels are crucial for accurate aerodynamic development. Sure, here is a detailed summary of the podcast episode transcript:

**Missed Apex Podcast – Episode 451**

**Hosts:**
- Spanners Ready
- Matt Trumpets
- Kristian Pedersen
- Jules Seegers

**Key Points:**

* The hosts start the episode by discussing the upcoming mailbag show, encouraging listeners to send in their questions to feedback@missedapex.net. They also thank their Patreon supporters for their ongoing support.

* The hosts then move on to make country-specific predictions for the upcoming F1 season.

* Jules Seegers predicts that Max Verstappen will come out on top in the Dutch driver standings, due to the ongoing lawsuits surrounding his contract.

* The hosts unanimously agree that Nyck de Vries will beat Yuki Tsunoda by the end of the season.

* Christian Pedersen predicts that Kevin Magnussen will win his teammate battle against Nico Hülkenberg.

* Matt Trumpets predicts that the Andretti entry into F1 will be approved.

* The hosts predict that Haas will finish seventh in the championship standings.

* The episode ends with the hosts reminding listeners to be nice to the crew over the next couple of weeks, as they will be working hard to keep the podcast running smoothly during the off-season.

**Overall Message:**
The hosts provide their predictions for the upcoming F1 season, discuss the latest news and rumors, and thank their listeners for their support.

**Additional Notes:**

* The hosts also discuss the recent interview with Mike Elliot in Motorsport, where he talked about the key mistake with the Mercedes W13 design.

* The hosts also mention that they will be having a substitute host for the upcoming mailbag show.

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[03:05.660 -> 03:13.720] Welcome to MissedInfects podcast. I'm your host Richard Ready, but my friends call me Spanish so let's be friends. We are an international conglomerate of expert panelists. Today we
[03:13.720 -> 03:19.260] have, I'm afraid, somewhat boringly still hosted by an Englishman, but we have an American
[03:19.260 -> 03:25.840] on hand as we often do. We're joined by a Viking this week and live from a windmill from a Dutchman.
[03:25.840 -> 03:31.600] All broadcast live from, for the last time actually, from a shed in Spain with video
[03:31.600 -> 03:37.680] production from Australia. One world, no borders in podcasting. So welcome to all
[03:37.680 -> 03:47.160] our international listeners. Hola to listeners in Paraguay, where we're currently eighth in their sports charts, and Sveiki
[03:47.160 -> 03:52.200] to our Lithuanian listeners as well, where we're currently sitting in 31st. So before
[03:52.200 -> 03:57.560] I start, before we start, I'd like to address some fair criticism. We fluffed a little bit
[03:57.560 -> 04:06.720] on the causes of porpoising in the last episode, so apologies for that. Many of you correctly pointed out that it's not
[04:06.720 -> 04:12.160] specifically a function of temperature that the cars were porpoising. And we've reviewed that as
[04:12.160 -> 04:17.520] a team and the terminology was much too loose. But I will sort of emphasize that it was a
[04:17.520 -> 04:27.040] somewhat off-the-cuff conversation and not an explainer, not a set piece segment. So I think maybe I need to do better in separating
[04:27.040 -> 04:33.360] between a segment like where we say, right, today we're explaining Tire Squirt and we've planned and
[04:33.360 -> 04:39.040] researched this as a topic, like we do when we do Geoff's history sessions or when Summers comes
[04:39.040 -> 04:46.160] on to do Tech Time. So when we're doing just off-the-cuff chats, we're often debating and giving our own
[04:46.160 -> 04:51.200] point of view, which has always been, I think, a strength of Mist Apex. And if there's several
[04:51.200 -> 04:56.400] people disagreeing on something, like there was with porpoising, by definition, somebody is going
[04:56.400 -> 05:02.800] to be wrong. But it's always going to be a debate and a discussion rather than a one-way conversation.
[05:02.800 -> 05:05.760] But we always accept feedback as well. So if you
[05:05.760 -> 05:12.280] think we're wrong, feedback at mistapex.net. But yes, I agree, we probably did drop a little
[05:12.280 -> 05:17.680] bit on that one. But in general, I would say treat Mist Apex as, well, what we've always
[05:17.680 -> 05:24.320] been. Slightly informed fans having a conversation and usually an argument. But we're lucky to
[05:24.320 -> 05:25.680] have had the contacts and
[05:25.680 -> 05:30.960] resources to become slightly better informed over the years. So for my part I'll try to be
[05:30.960 -> 05:37.760] better communicating whether we are, you know, what level of confidence we have. But I would say
[05:37.760 -> 05:43.040] generally if I'm saying it, it's a wild ass guess. And if Matt says it, he's at least read it
[05:43.040 -> 05:45.560] somewhere. I don't read. Not since streaming got good. So treat this as a start point and if Matt says it he's at least read it somewhere. I don't read, not since
[05:45.560 -> 05:48.880] streaming got good. So treat this as a start point and if you find something
[05:48.880 -> 05:53.400] interesting you can ask for us to dive deeper into it as a topic or you can,
[05:53.400 -> 05:57.000] you know, get into that and use that as a launch pad for your own
[05:57.000 -> 06:02.160] learning. Another person emailed us a bit upset that we'd been a bit too loose in
[06:02.160 -> 06:09.720] our definition of weight and mass when talking about understeer and was upset that we'd not gone into enough depth on
[06:09.720 -> 06:14.720] that topic. I think on that I will say there's no exam at the end of Missed
[06:14.720 -> 06:20.640] Apex so I do try to manage pace as well as just a pure info dump. If you want
[06:20.640 -> 06:25.840] long, slow and painful listen to Tech Time with Summers and Matt.
[06:25.840 -> 06:28.080] Two rumpets. How's it going, Matt?
[06:28.800 -> 06:33.040] I'm now tempted to calculate some role centres just to prove them
[06:33.760 -> 06:35.680] that we do know what we're talking about.
[06:35.680 -> 06:38.000] Yeah, so that could be the next Tech Time segment,
[06:38.000 -> 06:39.840] which I believe is coming up in a couple of weeks.
[06:40.960 -> 06:42.800] Yeah, I've been talking to Summers about it.
[06:42.800 -> 06:48.560] We have some things to say, some things to catch up on, and obviously a whole brand new
[06:48.560 -> 06:50.680] testing season to look forward to.
[06:50.680 -> 06:51.680] Absolutely.
[06:51.680 -> 06:57.080] We're joined all the way from the Netherlands by journalism lecturer and professor, it
[06:57.080 -> 06:58.080] is Jules Segers.
[06:58.080 -> 06:59.080] How's it going, Jules?
[06:59.080 -> 07:00.080] Hi, Sperres.
[07:00.080 -> 07:01.080] I'm fine.
[07:01.080 -> 07:07.040] Good evening, everyone, from the snowy part of the Netherlands, a country with no less
[07:07.040 -> 07:12.080] than two drivers on the grid this season, but only one of them finds himself in danger of ending up
[07:12.080 -> 07:16.800] in no less than two lawsuits. Ah, so that will probably be our first subject today, Nick de Vries
[07:16.800 -> 07:23.600] finding himself in hot water, and we're also joined by a Viking, Sean of his Hercules and
[07:23.600 -> 07:28.240] Samson long hair. It is the short-haired Christian Pedersen.
[07:28.240 -> 07:32.800] Do you know how many listeners will be heartbroken, how many viewers will be lamenting that haircut,
[07:32.800 -> 07:41.440] Christian? I'm fairly sure no one will. No one will not like this decision, especially myself.
[07:41.440 -> 07:43.920] All right, let's get on with the Big Dirty News.
[07:41.500 -> 07:44.500] Especially myself. Alright, let's get on with the Big Dirty News.
[07:44.500 -> 07:48.500] Big Dirty News!
[07:53.500 -> 07:57.000] Well, let's kick off by going to the Netherlands.
[07:57.000 -> 08:00.000] Jules, exciting to have a second driver on the grid.
[08:00.000 -> 08:05.520] Now, you're not a Max Verstappen fan, but how excited are you for Nick de Vries?
[08:05.520 -> 08:10.800] And how excited is, how behind Nick is the Netherlands in general, do you think?
[08:11.920 -> 08:18.400] Ah, it's hard to say. The country has been so used to getting behind Max Verstappen
[08:18.400 -> 08:26.080] these last couple of years, so it's almost impossible to get out of a shadow that he throws.
[08:26.080 -> 08:34.440] But I think when the season starts and AlphaTauri might come in good, people will get more excited,
[08:34.440 -> 08:40.160] especially when the Belgian and Dutch Grand Prix get near.
[08:40.160 -> 08:45.560] Why has he been hitting the news headlines when he hasn't even turned a wheel yet for
[08:45.560 -> 08:46.880] his new team?
[08:46.880 -> 08:48.400] And it looks like he's in a bit of hot water.
[08:48.400 -> 08:50.320] He is facing two lawsuits.
[08:50.320 -> 08:54.880] I know there's a lot of complicated stuff around this, but let's see if you can kick
[08:54.880 -> 08:55.880] us off.
[08:55.880 -> 09:00.440] What's the main thrust of his issue?
[09:00.440 -> 09:07.640] Nick de Vries has had a very different ladder up to Formula 1 than Max Verstappen.
[09:07.640 -> 09:16.040] He came through all the ranks, but he lacked the cash and he lacked a famous father.
[09:16.040 -> 09:24.960] So at a certain point in 2018, when he wanted to enter Formula 2 in a competitive car, he
[09:24.960 -> 09:28.100] needed half a million euros, but he could only come
[09:28.100 -> 09:29.100] up with half of that.
[09:29.100 -> 09:33.360] So a Dutch investor who is well-known in the motorsport world and is known for trying to
[09:33.360 -> 09:36.780] bring up drivers up to Formula 1.
[09:36.780 -> 09:42.160] For instance, one of the companies of this investor was behind Gido van der Garde getting
[09:42.160 -> 09:45.000] the Caterham seat in 2013.
[09:45.000 -> 09:48.040] So that investor, he came up with the other half
[09:48.040 -> 09:49.320] of the money.
[09:49.320 -> 09:54.320] And so Nick de Vries ended up in the Prema seat 2018,
[09:54.440 -> 09:59.000] but it was a loan and it was a loan for 250,000 euros.
[09:59.000 -> 10:03.120] And the investor said, well, I'll take care of you,
[10:03.120 -> 10:07.920] get you that seat, but it's gonna be a five five year loan. It's going to have a 3%
[10:07.920 -> 10:12.040] interest rate for five years. And you are going to give me
[10:12.060 -> 10:16.240] half of your income that's generated out of Formula One
[10:16.280 -> 10:20.120] activities. And you have to remember by that time, Nick had
[10:20.120 -> 10:24.360] already already been with McLaren for eight years. He was
[10:24.360 -> 10:26.600] their SIM development driver.
[10:26.600 -> 10:31.200] And in the years to come, Nick would end up in a Mercedes Reserve driver role.
[10:31.200 -> 10:36.460] So there was to be anticipated quite some Formula One income.
[10:36.460 -> 10:39.580] So this doesn't actually sound like all that bad.
[10:39.580 -> 10:44.180] I mean, I'm getting quite a positive vibe for the minute, Matt, which is there is a
[10:44.180 -> 10:49.160] route. That's the first thing that's coming to me is there is a route for someone who doesn't have enough
[10:49.160 -> 10:54.400] money to go forward and eventually get into a good seat in Formula One. So a lot of this
[10:54.400 -> 10:57.660] feels like a good news story.
[10:57.660 -> 11:06.080] It was, and especially with another condition saying, okay, Nick, if you haven't landed that F1 seat after these five years,
[11:07.300 -> 11:10.360] which was at the end of 2022,
[11:10.360 -> 11:13.300] if you haven't landed a Formula One seat,
[11:13.300 -> 11:16.620] then the loan will be waived.
[11:17.760 -> 11:19.260] In other words, you don't have to pay back
[11:19.260 -> 11:24.260] to 250,000 euros and our agreement is done.
[11:29.360 -> 11:36.240] euros, and our agreement is done. So that's where that's a part where a disagreement has come up now, because a Formula One seat can be interpreted in different ways. And that
[11:36.240 -> 11:50.280] then we come to the point of what is an F1 seat? What is in the terminology of a reserve driver, a third driver, or a test driver?
[11:50.280 -> 11:57.560] And so the investor says, wait a minute, you were a Mercedes reserve driver last season
[11:57.560 -> 11:59.080] in 2022.
[11:59.080 -> 12:02.600] You did free practice for Mercedes, for Williams.
[12:02.600 -> 12:06.080] You drove the Grand Prix for Williams at Monza and scored points.
[12:06.640 -> 12:13.040] So that sounds to me like you had an F1 seat and this loan isn't waived, you have to pay me back
[12:13.040 -> 12:22.560] the 250,000 euros and as a different condition. If Nick de Vries would have landed an F1 seat by 2022,
[12:27.060 -> 12:29.920] would have landed and have won seat by 2022, the investor would have a right to Nick's Formula One income in 2023.
[12:29.920 -> 12:36.560] In other words, 50% of Nick DeVries' Alpha Tauri income this year would go to that investor.
[12:36.560 -> 12:44.320] And you can imagine 50% of that is a lot more than 250,000 euros that the initial loan was.
[12:44.320 -> 12:47.200] Maybe it's just my New York background.
[12:47.200 -> 12:54.440] But when you say, helps drivers along, I think invests in them for loads of profit.
[12:54.440 -> 12:59.600] And I know that ultimately this particular case is going to come down to exactly how
[12:59.600 -> 13:08.640] certain things were defined in legal language and how a Dutch, I assume, court interprets that language.
[13:08.640 -> 13:14.520] So it's not really—although I know there's plenty of patrons who would enjoy picking that apart from
[13:14.520 -> 13:20.040] a legal point of view—there's not really much we can determine about it now. But I do wonder,
[13:20.040 -> 13:27.380] like, the terms of 50% of your salary for how long, it seems like to me that this
[13:27.380 -> 13:33.580] is an area where young drivers could really be taken advantage of, may have
[13:33.580 -> 13:38.460] been taken advantage of, and I wondered are we aware does the FIA pay any
[13:38.460 -> 13:43.300] attention to these sorts of contracts whatsoever at the level of F3 or F2?
[13:43.300 -> 13:45.280] I think it's pretty normal.
[13:45.280 -> 13:49.240] You have special deals with your sponsor.
[13:49.240 -> 13:55.880] If you take someone like Kevin Magnuson, he had a great deal with the guy who runs sort
[13:55.880 -> 14:02.280] of like the Danish eBay back in the days and then that corporation stopped somehow and
[14:02.280 -> 14:05.140] he joined the partners with the bestseller, which
[14:05.140 -> 14:07.580] is behind Jack and Jones, for instance.
[14:07.580 -> 14:13.460] And those guys gave him a certain amount of money he could use for his career.
[14:13.460 -> 14:19.920] And in return, they got the Jack and Jones rear wing on the Haas car, and in different
[14:19.920 -> 14:30.220] leagues, they had something else on the car. So still, when Kevin stopped in Formula One the first time, he wrote a book.
[14:30.220 -> 14:35.340] And in that book, he's sort of like, I also feel like I owned those guys something.
[14:35.340 -> 14:40.660] I'm not sure I paid it back in total with what I did on track and stuff like that.
[14:40.660 -> 14:47.120] So it doesn't have to be a bad relationship when you have loan deals like this always.
[14:47.120 -> 14:52.080] But in this case, it sounds a little bit like someone was after the money more than the
[14:52.080 -> 14:55.440] talent and the story and the journey.
[14:55.440 -> 15:08.080] I think in these situations, during the years, during the time of, in this case, that loan, the power balance shifts in a way, because at first, 2018,
[15:08.720 -> 15:14.400] you're a Formula One driver, Formula Two driver, and you do everything, you grab everything to
[15:14.400 -> 15:21.120] grab that seat. And then five years later, he had teams to pick from. And all of a sudden,
[15:21.120 -> 15:29.340] his income is like, assumably risen and maybe in a tenfold of what he once
[15:29.340 -> 15:31.120] thought he would earn.
[15:31.120 -> 15:38.400] And that's where these investors, it begins as a friendly thing, you know, I'll help you.
[15:38.400 -> 15:47.720] And I'm a well-known guy in bringing up racing drivers. And that's where another twist to the story occurs
[15:47.720 -> 15:52.480] because it appears now that the investor,
[15:53.480 -> 15:55.880] his name is Johan Schotthorst, doesn't matter to me.
[15:55.880 -> 15:57.280] Easy Dutch name.
[15:57.280 -> 15:58.440] Easy Dutch name.
[15:59.920 -> 16:03.200] He says, well, Nick hasn't disclosed all of the information
[16:03.200 -> 16:09.680] he was supposed to give us about his income, about his contracts that would include the exact role that he would
[16:09.680 -> 16:10.960] have as a driver.
[16:10.960 -> 16:17.000] So that's why the test driver or third driver or reserve driver label matters because the
[16:17.000 -> 16:20.800] contract says test driver would be allowed.
[16:20.800 -> 16:22.360] It wouldn't matter.
[16:22.360 -> 16:25.120] They would still waive the loan, but it doesn't say anything
[16:25.120 -> 16:29.600] about being a reserve driver. And that's where this investor is trying to pin him down. Like
[16:30.160 -> 16:36.560] you were a reserve driver and that means you owe me 50% of your income this year. So negative reset.
[16:36.560 -> 16:47.560] Yeah. I don't want to go to court. I will give you back the 250,000 on top of what he already paid, because 190,000 euros
[16:47.560 -> 16:51.080] he already paid in interest and income.
[16:51.080 -> 16:53.480] But this guy said, yeah, I'm not going to go for that.
[16:53.480 -> 16:54.880] I smell more money.
[16:54.880 -> 16:59.800] You know, 50% of your annual income at Alpha Tauri is probably going to be more than a
[16:59.800 -> 17:00.800] quarter million.
[17:00.800 -> 17:01.840] Oh, does anyone know?
[17:01.840 -> 17:05.920] Does anyone know what an Alpha Tauri driver gets these days?
[17:11.760 -> 17:18.880] Is there a reported ballpark figure? Maybe someone in the live chat will be able to dig up some rumour for us on what a driver will get. You might still argue that it feels kind of worth it. I mean,
[17:18.880 -> 17:22.400] I should really talk to Christian about it because, you know, you and I, we're still the
[17:22.400 -> 17:30.240] young dynamic ones. We might be in a position to climb the ladder that it still feels like a good deal even if he has to give away half of his
[17:30.240 -> 17:35.360] alpha tower salary he's not going to go hungry he can probably get plenty of crisps for half an alpha
[17:35.360 -> 17:42.000] tower driver salary and where would he have been had he not done it so let's be realistic our
[17:42.000 -> 17:46.320] children would we advise them to take this deal if he could do it again?
[17:47.040 -> 17:51.040] If I might just comment on one thing Jules said earlier in regards to this,
[17:51.920 -> 17:57.360] there should be something, there should be like a, this should be like a governing body thing.
[17:57.920 -> 18:07.540] They should have a team helping young drivers, not financially, but with contracts, with advices on how you form your career,
[18:07.540 -> 18:14.140] because it's so easy to take advantage of these 10, 12, 14-year-olds with dads that
[18:14.140 -> 18:16.940] have paid for their last 10 years on track.
[18:16.940 -> 18:21.440] And with just a little bit of sweet talking and stuff like that, and a little bit of gala,
[18:21.440 -> 18:22.860] you can come a long way.
[18:22.860 -> 18:25.280] And some just jump the first, or maybe
[18:25.280 -> 18:30.240] only bandwagon there is, because there's so many who wants to raise and there's so few seats.
[18:31.200 -> 18:38.080] Yeah, because how long are you in debt for? Because it's not only like a literal amount
[18:38.080 -> 18:47.800] of money or the length of a loan, but someone helps you get up the ladder, you know, and in this case, his investor wanted
[18:47.800 -> 18:54.480] to become his manager at the end of 2022, you know, when Nick became hot property and
[18:54.480 -> 18:55.800] he wanted to become his manager.
[18:55.800 -> 18:57.360] The plot thickens.
[18:57.360 -> 19:00.760] And Nick DeVries said, thanks, but no thanks.
[19:00.760 -> 19:02.420] I want out of everything.
[19:02.420 -> 19:04.560] So now he's bitter maybe.
[19:04.560 -> 19:08.560] That's what Nick DeVries' lawyer has told court, like this is some kind of a vengeance
[19:08.560 -> 19:09.560] move.
[19:09.560 -> 19:15.140] And, but well, it could drag on well into the start of the season because in the beginning
[19:15.140 -> 19:21.980] of next month, the court will only decide on whether the investor gets to see all the
[19:21.980 -> 19:26.400] documents of Nick De Vries' contracts, and then only later on,
[19:26.400 -> 19:29.400] the court will decide who's right about the contract
[19:29.400 -> 19:31.080] and who gets what money.
[19:31.080 -> 19:32.800] Okay, but this is not gonna affect
[19:32.800 -> 19:34.200] whether he drives for Alpha Tauri
[19:34.200 -> 19:36.320] or his role within Alpha Tauri at all.
[19:36.320 -> 19:38.440] It doesn't seem like that at all.
[19:38.440 -> 19:39.920] No, I can't imagine it would be.
[19:39.920 -> 19:41.440] But like Christian said,
[19:41.440 -> 19:47.240] I think it should raise a concern and start a discussion about
[19:47.240 -> 19:56.600] guiding young drivers, because the FIA has made a kind of a deal about, you know, the
[19:56.600 -> 19:58.720] ladder up to Formula One.
[19:58.720 -> 20:06.160] And it's not a coincidence that we dropped the GP2, GP3 names, and it's all F4, F3, F2, F1, and the best
[20:06.160 -> 20:11.880] drivers should get the highest of the ladder. But on the other hand, you still see, and
[20:11.880 -> 20:19.720] we've had that discussion often, that paid drivers get really far and some, like the
[20:19.720 -> 20:22.600] better drivers, don't just because of the money.
[20:22.600 -> 20:28.000] Yeah. So I don't, on principle though, have anything against that. Obviously any kind
[20:28.000 -> 20:33.660] of big money loan and you get people involved in throwing around money, sometimes people
[20:33.660 -> 20:39.000] are going to be able to take advantage of that and be less than charitable and, as Jules
[20:39.000 -> 20:45.360] was saying, be in it just for the money. But in principle, that doesn't seem a terrible thing to have, like an
[20:45.360 -> 20:53.360] angel investor, but in young potential Formula One drivers. Let's fund six academy drivers. If
[20:53.360 -> 20:59.040] one of them makes it and ends up giving us the cut in this clause, then we make our money and
[20:59.040 -> 21:06.080] six drivers have had the chance to go as far as they can. That would increase the overall quality of F1. When
[21:06.080 -> 21:10.320] you count the amount of billionaires we've had in Formula 1 that might not necessarily have got
[21:10.320 -> 21:15.840] there on their own, that's something that weakens the sport from a sporting point of view. I think
[21:15.840 -> 21:24.880] there is no top level sport that is lower in the overall elite quality at the top level than
[21:24.880 -> 21:25.880] Formula 1. And as much
[21:25.880 -> 21:31.040] as we love Formula 1, we love the engineering side of it, the drivers are heroes, there
[21:31.040 -> 21:36.660] is so much untapped potential in what the standard could be in Formula 1 in the very
[21:36.660 -> 21:40.600] elite of drivers because of money. So I'm in favour of anything that would allow...
[21:40.600 -> 21:45.440] I mean, he still had 250,000, so he wasn't exactly scrambling around poor,
[21:45.440 -> 21:49.920] but anything that can help redress that balance and stop it becoming the battle of the billionaires
[21:49.920 -> 21:54.340] is okay with me and this has happened in football for a long time.
[21:54.340 -> 21:58.460] And it happens in British politics, you know, you can invest in a young politician and then
[21:58.460 -> 22:00.280] end up in a top broadcasting job.
[22:00.280 -> 22:03.160] Mad, you want to say something according to the...
[22:03.160 -> 22:08.200] I'm just going to go with, I was going to mention golf is another sport where this is pretty
[22:08.200 -> 22:09.200] common.
[22:09.200 -> 22:14.480] I think the issue is these drivers are young.
[22:14.480 -> 22:18.560] You don't always know what kind of advice they are getting.
[22:18.560 -> 22:22.800] And it's it's really the predatory situations that you want to guard against.
[22:22.800 -> 22:26.120] And I remember Adrian Newey years ago coming out and
[22:26.120 -> 22:29.960] talking about, because what we're not talking about now is all the drivers who don't make that
[22:29.960 -> 22:35.040] cut but are equally as desperate. And what you don't want is one of them getting stuck,
[22:35.040 -> 22:40.880] ruining their entire life, having borrowed to the hilt for a chance that was never going to
[22:40.880 -> 22:46.180] work out for them. So I feel like some due diligence might be in order
[22:46.180 -> 22:49.780] from the FIA since as Christian rightly points out,
[22:49.780 -> 22:52.140] they have taken control of this entire ladder.
[22:53.440 -> 22:57.120] On a final note, top Google results for pay driver,
[22:57.120 -> 22:59.840] for the salary for the Formula One drivers
[22:59.840 -> 23:02.640] is 5 million for Pierre Gasly,
[23:02.640 -> 23:06.800] half a million for Yuki Tsunoda in Alfa Taure, which is dollars.
[23:06.800 -> 23:11.100] Probably not correct since it's just a top Google search, but it's somewhere in that
[23:11.100 -> 23:12.100] ballpark.
[23:12.100 -> 23:18.040] And I think Kevin Magnussen got $1 million a year or euros, something like that.
[23:18.040 -> 23:19.040] Oh, okay.
[23:19.040 -> 23:22.840] So can we take a guess and extrapolate what De Vries might be getting from that?
[23:22.840 -> 23:27.080] Half a million, something like that would not be far off.
[23:27.080 -> 23:30.080] And would this be for this whole career that this contract would be?
[23:30.080 -> 23:31.080] No, no, no.
[23:31.080 -> 23:32.080] That would be for his next year.
[23:32.080 -> 23:36.720] No, I mean the split he would have to give to his management, to this person, to this
[23:36.720 -> 23:37.720] loaner.
[23:37.720 -> 23:38.720] That depends.
[23:38.720 -> 23:39.720] That depends on the deal.
[23:39.720 -> 23:40.720] All right.
[23:40.720 -> 23:45.920] As far as is known now, it was going to be about 2023.
[23:46.640 -> 23:51.600] 2023, so just that one year. So I don't know. So if he ends up, so I mean we do maths here,
[23:51.600 -> 23:57.040] if he ends up on a Yuki Tsunoda contract, he's not really getting a massive return
[23:57.040 -> 23:58.000] on his investment.
[23:58.560 -> 24:07.840] I think that most of the income that drivers of this echelon generate is their private sponsor deals and
[24:07.840 -> 24:10.480] all kinds of marketing stuff.
[24:10.480 -> 24:16.880] They're not on the big bills like the top drivers.
[24:16.880 -> 24:23.280] So it could, and probably then you get a discussion like, oh, but income that you generate because
[24:23.280 -> 24:26.320] you're an AlphaTaurii driver that's also mine.
[24:26.320 -> 24:30.640] So I think we'll have to monitor what's coming out of the Dutch courts.
[24:38.480 -> 24:45.120] Okay well here's a situation that's going to come up where I know for a fact me and my panel are going to disagree.
[24:45.920 -> 24:51.920] So some of us are going to be wrong. Okay, so I will caveat and communicate to you that you are
[24:51.920 -> 24:58.320] going to hear at least one wrong opinion and it's probably mine. My opinion is that we absolutely
[24:58.320 -> 25:05.760] know for a fact it has basically been revealed that the side pods will return to the Mercedes.
[25:05.760 -> 25:14.760] And that's my interpretation from a motorsport.com article written by Alex Kalinakis and that was out this week.
[25:14.760 -> 25:20.280] And he was quoting Mercedes technical director Mike Elliott and it's a really interesting article.
[25:20.280 -> 25:27.400] We'll put a link to the show notes below Matt, I think, because it's really good reading, really well written, and it's about Mike Elliott explaining how a single
[25:27.400 -> 25:33.720] data point in the initial design simulations led them to go down a route that didn't work
[25:33.720 -> 25:40.120] for them. And my understanding from this article is that that fork in the road led them very
[25:40.120 -> 25:45.280] much to the zero side pods, to push the Zero side pods. So if they'd not made this
[25:45.280 -> 25:50.960] one mistake in the simulation, maybe last year's car would have had side pods on. I
[25:50.960 -> 25:56.800] think this is a good time to switch across to Matt and say, Zero side pods, I'm doing
[25:56.800 -> 26:01.120] where we went wrong last week, I'm springing a tech thing on you. But what was so bad about
[26:01.120 -> 26:06.120] the Zero side pods? Was it the airflow hitting the rear wheels, making it draggy?
[26:06.120 -> 26:09.980] Well, the only thing wrong with the Zero side pods
[26:09.980 -> 26:13.600] is that given the compromise,
[26:13.600 -> 26:16.920] they were forced to run in order to stop the porpoising.
[26:17.840 -> 26:20.880] The drag from the rear wheels
[26:20.880 -> 26:23.480] messed up their energy recovery,
[26:23.480 -> 26:26.600] as far as I understand it and deployment. So
[26:26.600 -> 26:31.480] essentially you have, they would have known about, they would not have missed
[26:31.480 -> 26:35.160] the fact that the zero side pods would have resulted in the drag those rear
[26:35.160 -> 26:41.880] wheels gave them. But they expected to be able to recover that with downforce from
[26:41.880 -> 26:46.400] under the floor where the real problem occurred was the numbers
[26:46.400 -> 26:51.880] they got for running that floor, they were running it at a height, a ride height, they
[26:51.880 -> 26:58.040] couldn't run in the real world. So now they have to raise the car up and having raised
[26:58.040 -> 27:03.120] the car up, they don't have as much downforce as they thought they were going to have. And
[27:03.120 -> 27:10.160] the only way to try and fix that is to make wings that have more downforce at the front and rear. The problem there is you're adding
[27:10.160 -> 27:16.800] a lot more drag with those over-the-top-of-the-body implements. And now suddenly that those rear
[27:16.800 -> 27:20.800] wheels, which is very obvious to people who know things about aerodynamics, we're always going to
[27:20.800 -> 27:28.760] induce a fair amount of drag. Now those are being looked at as the problem, along with the zero side pods. I don't think Mercedes will back away from
[27:28.760 -> 27:31.920] the fundamental concept of the zero side pod.
[27:31.920 -> 27:36.200] I think they definitely will. God, sorry, sorry. I was going to go to Christian there,
[27:36.200 -> 27:37.200] Matt. I hadn't realized.
[27:37.200 -> 27:39.520] No, no, that's okay. I can come back to my point if you prefer.
[27:39.520 -> 27:40.520] Oh, no. It's just so...
[27:40.520 -> 27:41.880] I want to hear Matt's point.
[27:41.880 -> 27:48.880] Yeah. Sometimes, guys, I know I get accused of talking over my panel quite a lot, you know, we are dotted around the world and sometimes there's enough of a
[27:48.880 -> 27:52.480] pause where I think someone has finished and that's what happened there. I do apologize,
[27:52.480 -> 27:55.600] Matt, continue. You don't think they're going to go away from the zero side pods?
[27:56.400 -> 28:01.920] No, I think the fundamental concept they have, which is to expose as much of the floor as possible
[28:02.560 -> 28:05.760] will remain. They're going to have issues because the ride
[28:05.760 -> 28:14.320] height, um, sorry, the floor edge height and the height of the diffuser has been changed,
[28:14.320 -> 28:29.600] which will fundamentally remove some downforce. So I think it's possible we could see slightly slightly larger 0.5 pods maybe, as they look to minimize the drag from those rear wheels
[28:29.600 -> 28:33.640] while making up for the fundamental downforce deficit.
[28:33.640 -> 28:38.320] But I firmly believe they just wound up with a chassis that couldn't accommodate the changes
[28:38.320 -> 28:49.000] they needed to fully adjust for the porpoising? I don't think the sidepods are going to go anyway either
[28:49.000 -> 28:53.000] because we've all been talking about these sidepods that's missing
[28:53.000 -> 28:56.000] and it has nothing to do with that in my opinion.
[28:56.000 -> 29:02.000] I still think they're going to bet their horses on the aerodynamic,
[29:02.000 -> 29:08.000] not goal, but there's some advantages to the non-side-port theory.
[29:08.000 -> 29:10.200] And I think they're going to stay on that route.
[29:10.200 -> 29:16.200] And I think they're going to fix their, which was probably partly suspension at the rear end,
[29:16.200 -> 29:21.300] in my humble opinion, at least related to the suspension.
[29:21.300 -> 29:32.720] And when that works, we should not forget that this car actually won a few races at the end of the year. And knowing Mercedes as a team, I would suggest that that's
[29:32.720 -> 29:37.600] probably the worst team to have been on the back foot last year, learning so much from
[29:37.600 -> 29:41.960] not winning. So I think it's going to be an interesting 23.
[29:41.960 -> 29:48.220] Jules, surely though, surely, even if they're like dummy toy side pods and they
[29:48.220 -> 29:53.320] don't do anything, wouldn't everyone at Mercedes and all the Mercedes fans out there just feel
[29:53.320 -> 29:57.480] better? You know, like when you give a kid like a toy remote control and it doesn't really
[29:57.480 -> 30:02.320] do anything, can't they just aesthetically put some side pods on there, paint it black.
[30:02.320 -> 30:06.800] I think there'll be a lot of Mercedes and Hamilton fans who'll feel a lot better about it.
[30:06.800 -> 30:11.520] You mean like the vanity panels that we had somewhere mid to 2010s?
[30:11.520 -> 30:13.200] Yeah, that's the one.
[30:13.200 -> 30:21.560] To cover those ugly duck noses. Spanners, I hate to say it, but I don't believe in it
[30:21.560 -> 30:30.400] either. I can imagine Mercedes dropping the one thing that seemed to be what made them stick out
[30:30.400 -> 30:33.040] from the rest of the field.
[30:33.040 -> 30:42.380] And it seems to me that's such a philosophy to do that and to drop that and more or less
[30:42.380 -> 30:46.320] be accused of, oh, now they do what the rest of us do.
[30:46.320 -> 30:47.320] Oh, I see.
[30:47.320 -> 30:52.900] I can't imagine if their pride would be able to stand that.
[30:52.900 -> 30:56.460] I think they're going to stick with it.
[30:56.460 -> 31:07.420] And also because what earlier articles about the topic have stated is that like, they found all kinds of solutions
[31:07.420 -> 31:17.420] and upgrades on area that didn't show in the body work. So I somehow believe that they're
[31:17.420 -> 31:21.980] desperate to stick with these zero side parts and manage things beneath that.
[31:21.980 -> 31:28.320] Okay, well, I'm just looking at the article here and the quote is from, again, from,
[31:28.320 -> 31:30.840] oh, see, I've scrolled up to see who it was, Mike Elliott,
[31:30.840 -> 31:32.340] and now I'm gonna lose the quote.
[31:32.340 -> 31:36.780] But the quote was that when you look at the decision we made
[31:36.780 -> 31:39.160] it's the first thing that we did was difficult to spot
[31:39.160 -> 31:42.520] and then from that there was a cascade of errors.
[31:42.520 -> 31:46.560] And so when you know where you ended up it's easy to look back and
[31:46.560 -> 31:51.200] see where we took the wrong step. And then the article continues, it has been suggested that the
[31:51.200 -> 31:58.240] single simulation floor led to Mercedes pressing ahead with its zero pod, zero pod side pod approach
[31:58.240 -> 32:03.600] which meant a large rear floor area that flexed under peak downforce and triggered triggered
[32:03.600 -> 32:05.920] extreme porpoising. To me, Matt,
[32:05.920 -> 32:10.480] that does seem to strongly suggest that had they not made that error, they wouldn't have
[32:10.480 -> 32:13.760] pressed ahead with the Zero Side Pod. Matt McLaughlin
[32:13.760 -> 32:18.560] Well, you don't know that it's the Zero Side Pod. It could easily be the floor design
[32:18.560 -> 32:26.880] or the amount of flex. There's a lot of different places that, or the right height. I mean, again, I keep
[32:26.880 -> 32:31.020] on going back to, I remember someone saying at some point, you know, if we could run it
[32:31.020 -> 32:37.260] at the right height we simulated, it would work great. So it could just be a simple mathematical
[32:37.260 -> 32:43.100] error or a modeling error that let them believe they could run it at a right height that they
[32:43.100 -> 32:47.440] can't in the real world. And from that, all of these other problems flowed.
[32:47.440 -> 32:52.960] Wait, are you telling me that the simulations are never wrong? That's what you're telling me. I'm
[32:52.960 -> 32:58.000] hearing from you that you're saying all simulations pre-season are never wrong. Can you confirm that
[32:58.000 -> 33:03.440] that's what you're saying? I'm just saying that any simulation is only as good as the
[33:03.440 -> 33:08.640] information you give it. Simulations are never wrong, that's what Matt's saying, because it has been rumoured
[33:08.640 -> 33:16.240] that Ferrari are over a second faster than last year's car at the same stage in the simulations.
[33:16.240 -> 33:21.360] And if that is to be taken as fact, then my message to all the Ferrari fans out there,
[33:21.360 -> 33:26.400] you know how much I love you guys as sporting rivals, but this is the
[33:26.400 -> 33:34.480] time of year, and with this information, you should absolutely 100% start getting your hopes up now.
[33:34.480 -> 33:42.320] Just buy Ferrari 2023 World Constructors t-shirts. Get them done now while they're cheap.
[33:42.320 -> 33:44.160] That's my advice to you. Christian.
[33:44.240 -> 33:52.080] Get them done now while they're cheap. That's my advice to you. Christian. I totally agree. It's 30 horsepower more than last year's engine.
[33:52.080 -> 33:53.160] That's what I'm saying.
[33:53.160 -> 33:57.920] I saw there was someone who's already made like a Ferrari 30 horsepower more,
[33:57.920 -> 34:06.760] Mercedes 15, and I think Red Bull was 10, and Renault was just the same as last year, which is basically
[34:06.760 -> 34:10.920] you could just rewrite the year number on that meme.
[34:10.920 -> 34:12.400] And it's the same every year, isn't it?
[34:12.400 -> 34:14.400] I know.
[34:14.400 -> 34:16.040] The hard thing about being a Ferrari fan.
[34:16.040 -> 34:17.040] Oh, sorry, Christian.
[34:17.040 -> 34:20.200] I'm just saying the hard thing about being a Ferrari fan is just their tendency to come
[34:20.200 -> 34:25.560] out of the blocks hot and that to be their kind of peak of performance relative to others.
[34:25.560 -> 34:31.640] But I mean, if anyone's allowed to do that, it's the Ferrari fans because I mean, come
[34:31.640 -> 34:37.100] on, we need and they should they should win a championship very soon with the funding
[34:37.100 -> 34:40.080] with the heritage with everything.
[34:40.080 -> 34:41.480] Everyone wants Ferrari to win.
[34:41.480 -> 34:43.320] And also we also want the others to win.
[34:43.320 -> 34:50.320] But I totally get the Ferrari hype train. And it's getting a little, little late, though. And I feel
[34:50.320 -> 34:53.500] a little sorry for their fans. They deserve better.
[34:53.500 -> 34:57.880] I said at the start of last season, as somebody who, from a sporting point of view, hates
[34:57.880 -> 35:03.460] Ferrari, even I kind of want them to win a championship, because that makes them easier
[35:03.460 -> 35:05.600] to be a sporting giant rival.
[35:06.480 -> 35:12.560] Yeah it does but I mean right now with if they win or even get close it's fully Ben Ato.
[35:13.360 -> 35:17.600] It's his card that we're going to see next season so I just want to put that out there.
[35:17.600 -> 35:22.960] Wait a minute what if they win simply on the fact that they keep getting all the strategy calls
[35:22.960 -> 35:29.360] right and that is something that Vasseur has stamped on and cut down on errors and that's the reason they win.
[35:30.160 -> 35:34.560] If they change strategist I would be behind that but as far as I know they're not.
[35:35.760 -> 35:40.160] Fine. Okay sorry that was a bit of a diversion to Ferrari. Jules.
[35:40.960 -> 35:49.040] Yeah I think us trying to read things into motorsport articles with riders who are kind
[35:49.040 -> 35:56.620] of not really quoting someone from a team, but kind of trying to refer to it as well.
[35:56.620 -> 36:00.520] Maybe it means we're just really ready for preseason testing.
[36:00.520 -> 36:07.120] We can try to read things into amounts of laps and lap times done and livery reveals
[36:07.120 -> 36:13.440] and new car reveals that are actually cars from last year.
[36:13.440 -> 36:17.120] It's an interesting point you said there because it's a good article, but you do have to be
[36:17.120 -> 36:21.840] careful to watch where the quotation marks start and end and where, you know, opinion
[36:21.840 -> 36:25.760] comes into it. So even the point I was making there about the zero pods,
[36:25.760 -> 36:30.560] really I've extrapolated that from outside of the quotation marks as well.
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[37:36.380 -> 37:38.720] But sticking with Mercedes for a moment
[37:38.720 -> 37:42.540] and sticking with areas in which people disagree
[37:42.540 -> 37:45.920] with me strongly, I put out what I thought was a fairly innocuous
[37:45.920 -> 37:50.640] tweet and lots of people disagreed with me so I thought, fantastic, this will be an interesting
[37:50.640 -> 37:58.320] discussion point. It is very much, in my mind, obvious that Lewis Hamilton is the number one
[37:58.320 -> 38:05.440] driver at Mercedes. So there you go, I'm gonna say it. Lewis Hamilton is the number one driver at Mercedes and I felt
[38:05.440 -> 38:12.160] that Lewis Hamilton has often been the number one. So a lot of people, you know, got pretty mad at me
[38:12.160 -> 38:18.080] for that, saying no Mercedes always treat their drivers equally and I think if you're a Lewis
[38:18.080 -> 38:26.580] Hamilton fan you kind of... it's nice, it's a better narrative if he's always like-for-like equipment and he always
[38:26.580 -> 38:31.680] has the same treatment and status from a team as his teammates. And then he looks like a
[38:31.680 -> 38:37.260] much, much better driver. And he's an incredible driver. I'm a big fan of Lewis Hamilton.
[38:37.260 -> 38:42.840] But I do feel like since his battle with Fernando Alonso, where we don't know the behind-the-scenes
[38:42.840 -> 38:45.280] stuff, we know from people like Mark
[38:45.280 -> 38:50.160] Priestley and his book that there was a lot of rivalry behind the scenes and it split
[38:50.160 -> 38:57.080] the team. Maybe Lewis Hamilton won that political argument and that battle as much as Fernando
[38:57.080 -> 39:05.120] Alonso managed to lose it. And if you look at Alonso's record going forward after that, it seems he has a habit of losing
[39:05.120 -> 39:13.360] the team emotionally and being divisive in a team. But Lewis Hamilton, to that same degree,
[39:14.080 -> 39:21.760] seemed very popular within McLaren. And he was on top of Heikki Kovalainen. I don't know if there
[39:21.760 -> 39:28.480] was a great political feud there where he managed to get the best engineers from Heikki Kovalainen. I don't know if there was a great political feud there where he managed to get the best engineers from Heikki Kovalainen's side over to his side. But
[39:28.480 -> 39:33.200] when he went over to Mercedes, there was an incident, I believe in Malaysia, where basically
[39:33.200 -> 39:37.320] Rosberg couldn't take the podium he was told to hold off because Mercedes wanted their
[39:37.320 -> 39:42.440] new superstar signing to get the podium. Okay, you could argue as well they also didn't
[39:42.440 -> 39:49.200] want them to clatter into each other, but Rosberg had such an overspeed in that race that it was hard to not look at that and say
[39:49.200 -> 39:53.880] they needed to justify the decision to bring in Lewis Hamilton on a big money deal.
[39:53.880 -> 39:59.520] And I feel like he was the number one driver with a very good teammate Nico Rosberg giving
[39:59.520 -> 40:05.520] them a real headache and eventually earning enough respect to be told, you know, for Lewis Hamilton
[40:05.520 -> 40:12.800] to be told to not do a crocodile holding him back in Abu Dhabi in 2016. But certainly with Bottas,
[40:13.360 -> 40:19.760] I do wonder, yes, they're given equal cars, on paper equal status, but in the engineering room
[40:19.760 -> 40:24.640] when people were sitting there designing their car, did they have a driver's driving style in
[40:24.640 -> 40:29.840] mind? Can you design to one driver and not another? We seem to always be told that you can,
[40:29.840 -> 40:38.320] citing Verstappen and Sergio Perez. So, to my mind, Mercedes do design for and go forward with
[40:38.320 -> 40:43.200] that feeling that Lewis Hamilton is their their number one driver and I believe there is some
[40:43.200 -> 40:45.480] unfinished business. Every time
[40:45.480 -> 40:50.160] you hear from Toto Wolff or Lewis Hamilton, especially when they refer to 2021, that's
[40:50.160 -> 40:53.880] still very much on their minds. And there was a quote from somewhere where one of the
[40:53.880 -> 40:59.060] engineers at Mercedes said, Lewis Hamilton knew what kind of attitude he wanted to bring
[40:59.060 -> 41:07.840] into 2022 to kind of resolve the situation, and we couldn't give him the tools to do that. And so whilst George Russell is clearly a very good driver,
[41:08.560 -> 41:12.080] they used the language before last season very much of learning.
[41:12.080 -> 41:15.200] And if you listen to George Russell, he's been talking about,
[41:15.200 -> 41:18.480] I feel like what I've learned from Lewis Hamilton makes up for
[41:19.040 -> 41:23.120] the increased time he spent at Williams that he didn't particularly want to spend at Williams.
[41:23.120 -> 41:30.000] So I still feel Lewis Hamilton, number one driver. Am I right? Am I wrong? Christian, come on. He's the number
[41:30.000 -> 41:35.440] one driver. You're totally right. Of course, he's the number one driver. I'm not going to
[41:35.440 -> 41:40.160] take a chronological... In the order you said it, and we've got to everything, but let me just start
[41:40.160 -> 41:46.800] by 2007. I don't think Hamilton was a player in that game. He was a card on Ron Dennis's hand
[41:47.440 -> 41:53.360] at that time. And then he grew. And by the time he got to Mercedes, I think Hamilton was a force
[41:53.360 -> 42:01.600] to be reckoned with and was treated that way. And I think the team was sad that they had that 16
[42:02.240 -> 42:06.000] Rosberg-Hamilton fight at the end of the year,
[42:06.880 -> 42:10.400] basically, probably mostly because of the Indian failure in Malaysia,
[42:10.400 -> 42:13.920] but would just have given Hamilton the victory.
[42:13.920 -> 42:20.240] But at this point in time, I think the entire team still has that in them.
[42:20.240 -> 42:21.680] I have it in me still.
[42:22.640 -> 42:29.480] That finale in 2021 still hurts. It still goes against everything
[42:29.480 -> 42:33.000] in my body that is Formula One affiliated.
[42:33.000 -> 42:37.560] Really? I'm over it, Christian. Hardly ever think about it.
[42:37.560 -> 42:41.480] But isn't I'm totally over it because we have to get over it. But still, if I was working
[42:41.480 -> 42:45.200] Mercedes, if they put a lie detector on me and asked me
[42:45.200 -> 42:51.440] if I was over it, everyone would say no, and it would be true, if you know what I mean.
[42:51.440 -> 42:53.440] And that will just be in them.
[42:53.440 -> 42:54.780] But let me make one last point.
[42:54.780 -> 43:02.640] I think this is completely a future talk theory, but I think both Toto Wolff and Hamilton are
[43:02.640 -> 43:05.680] thinking about ending their Formula 1 careers where
[43:05.680 -> 43:06.680] they are right now.
[43:06.680 -> 43:07.680] Interesting.
[43:07.680 -> 43:13.720] I think the James Valls thing is to get him in line to be the next Toto Wolff.
[43:13.720 -> 43:19.000] And that will be when they have their eighth championship, both Hamilton and Toto, and
[43:19.000 -> 43:20.000] they can...
[43:20.000 -> 43:21.000] Disappear into the sunset.
[43:21.000 -> 43:22.000] Evolve, yeah.
[43:22.000 -> 43:27.600] And then Valls can control the new George Russell, maybe Schumacher team.
[43:27.600 -> 43:31.480] Well, there's a couple of really interesting comments here, Matt, in our Slack group.
[43:31.480 -> 43:36.200] Eleanor is suggesting that Hamilton is part of the management team, as well as a driver.
[43:36.200 -> 43:37.680] We don't have any insight on that.
[43:37.680 -> 43:38.560] That's an interesting take.
[43:38.560 -> 43:43.280] And Mark saying, the people assuming Mercedes always have equal drivers are forgetting that
[43:43.280 -> 43:50.420] they were allowed to race more when they were a class apart and really far ahead in the field. And certainly, yeah,
[43:50.420 -> 43:55.240] Matt, it is much easier, isn't it, when you've got that hybrid jump like in 2014, you're
[43:55.240 -> 44:02.160] almost obliged to let them race at that point, although no one gave that memo to Verstappen
[44:02.160 -> 44:06.100] and Horner. But when it's been a bit more competitive,
[44:06.100 -> 44:07.360] you really, you need to pick, don't you?
[44:07.360 -> 44:10.200] You need to pick and have, you know, favor one.
[44:11.120 -> 44:13.880] Well, as with everything, there comes a point
[44:13.880 -> 44:16.680] where your returns are diminishing.
[44:16.680 -> 44:20.000] So yes, let them race, but you don't let them race
[44:20.000 -> 44:23.020] to the point where they crash each other out,
[44:23.020 -> 44:25.600] which we did see happen with Hamilton and Rosberg
[44:25.600 -> 44:26.440] on occasion.
[44:26.440 -> 44:27.600] Yeah.
[44:27.600 -> 44:28.720] Back in the day.
[44:28.720 -> 44:29.800] Oh, so fun.
[44:30.880 -> 44:32.520] I think, you know,
[44:33.600 -> 44:35.440] if you're gonna argue about what people mean
[44:35.440 -> 44:36.600] by number one driver,
[44:36.600 -> 44:38.680] if you're saying the number one driver's a driver
[44:38.680 -> 44:39.560] who scored the most points,
[44:39.560 -> 44:41.760] then you could argue technically Russell
[44:41.760 -> 44:42.880] is the number one driver,
[44:42.880 -> 44:46.280] but no one in their right mind
[44:46.280 -> 44:53.380] is going to overlook the amount of experience and quite frankly talent and the long routes
[44:53.380 -> 44:58.040] that Hamilton has in this team. So if by number one driver we mean the driver that they go
[44:58.040 -> 45:03.680] to to ask their opinion of changes to the car and so on and so forth, they'll ask both
[45:03.680 -> 45:10.480] drivers, but if they have to pick one, they're going to pick Lewis. And even people who are Hamilton haters would agree,
[45:11.520 -> 45:17.840] that would be the person that you'd listen to in that circumstance. So, I mean, I will use the
[45:17.840 -> 45:26.720] Alonzo analogy. Yeah, Ocon won, but it was very clear Alonzo was the number one driver at Alpine despite
[45:26.720 -> 45:27.720] that.
[45:27.720 -> 45:29.560] And I think that's what we're looking at here with Mercedes.
[45:29.560 -> 45:34.040] I think just supplemental to that, I just want to sort of reflect on how this will come
[45:34.040 -> 45:37.360] across as a reflection of George Russell's performance as well.
[45:37.360 -> 45:42.400] So I think this season, if it's quite close, but Mercedes have got a title shot and they're
[45:42.400 -> 45:50.160] pushing forward with Lewis Hamilton as their number one and designing for Lewis Hamilton. There is a real possibility that George Russell could
[45:50.160 -> 45:56.640] look Bottas-esque and in a similar situation to Bottas was looking when it was competitive against
[45:56.640 -> 46:01.440] Ferrari and I don't necessarily think that should be taken against George Russell. So he's had a
[46:01.440 -> 46:05.200] really good start, he's been really positive. If he ends up in a
[46:05.200 -> 46:10.880] support role a little bit off the pace next season, I don't think people should be writing
[46:12.640 -> 46:16.880] him off as a Formula One driver. So it's as much about that as anything else. Sorry, Christian.
[46:18.000 -> 46:25.560] One thing you mentioned, the setting up the car thing. I don't think any drivers are in the first initial meetings.
[46:25.880 -> 46:30.760] I think the initial meetings are, how can we get them the fastest time?
[46:30.800 -> 46:35.600] And then very, very late in the process, you're going to start simulating the car.
[46:36.040 -> 46:39.100] And that's when the drivers are going to have a little bit of say, but not much.
[46:39.120 -> 46:48.480] It's not until you have, let's say, extracted 100% of what you got, then you start taking drivers into account in a certain way.
[46:48.480 -> 46:49.320] Jules.
[46:50.540 -> 46:53.280] In Slack group, Maria Klados.
[46:53.280 -> 46:54.120] I was just looking at that one.
[46:54.120 -> 46:56.520] I hope I pronounce it well.
[46:56.520 -> 46:59.920] I think she makes a great point by saying like,
[46:59.920 -> 47:04.920] it matters how you impose the number one driver role.
[47:05.080 -> 47:09.760] And I think she refers to Red Bull, where it's pretty clear, I guess.
[47:09.760 -> 47:12.280] Yeah, there's parts.
[47:12.280 -> 47:18.040] And it differs a lot from Mercedes or other teams.
[47:18.040 -> 47:25.600] I think if you break it down to this, no matter who has the better start of the season, I think Mercedes
[47:25.600 -> 47:32.240] would stick with equal treatment longer if Hamilton is behind Russell than the other
[47:32.240 -> 47:33.240] way around.
[47:33.240 -> 47:36.720] Ah, okay, so if Hamilton is behind Russell, they go, oh no, it's all equal, they're fair
[47:36.720 -> 47:40.880] to fight, and then that would give Hamilton a sort of a fighting chance to get back into
[47:40.880 -> 47:47.000] it. If it's Russell behind Hamilton, they might say, ah, well, actually, look, this is our established driver. Let's push ahead.
[47:47.000 -> 47:51.400] And that answers the follow-up question Maria had there, which is, how do you
[47:51.400 -> 47:55.200] favour one? How and when? Which I think is an absolutely fascinating topic,
[47:55.200 -> 47:59.300] because with Red Bull, I think, you know, you look at iterations and you can say,
[47:59.300 -> 48:02.300] well, when there's a new part and we know it works, we'll just give that to Max
[48:02.300 -> 48:05.560] Verstappen whilst we fabricate the other parts.
[48:05.560 -> 48:10.440] You can also give them... I don't know how much of a difference there is between mechanics
[48:10.440 -> 48:16.760] or crew. Could the senior strategist concentrate a bit more on Max? Could the best, I don't
[48:16.760 -> 48:22.100] know, wing mirror guy, the guy who shines the wing mirrors, like the best one, goes
[48:22.100 -> 48:25.440] on Verstappen's car and Perez has slightly blurry wing mirrors,
[48:25.440 -> 48:31.520] but you can do things a little bit less subtly. Ferrari have cracked gearboxes open in the past
[48:31.520 -> 48:36.000] to give Fernando Alonso grid positions. They literally just broke the seal on Massa's
[48:37.680 -> 48:43.680] gearbox so he lost five places. And then if you look at the dynamic, I've said this before, with
[48:43.680 -> 48:45.480] Leclerc and Vettel,
[48:45.480 -> 48:49.280] Vettel was the better, faster driver for a good chunk of time.
[48:49.280 -> 48:52.960] And then like a switch, you could see politically, he'd lost Ferrari.
[48:52.960 -> 48:55.240] Oh, I think probably Brazil.
[48:55.240 -> 48:59.440] What year was it in Brazil where he just wandered across the track and took Leclerc out, and
[48:59.440 -> 49:01.080] I think took both of them out.
[49:01.080 -> 49:10.200] And then you just seem to see this step change where a switch went off and they just they flicked the switch from Vettel to Leclerc and I think like Ferrari would
[49:10.200 -> 49:14.640] be much more dynamic and just go yeah all right we'll just make that car faster than
[49:14.640 -> 49:20.040] that car. Would Mercedes be like either of those teams? No, probably not. But I'm sure
[49:20.040 -> 49:25.200] there's other ways that you would just lean in and if you've got the will and the backing of a team
[49:26.000 -> 49:30.240] for you specifically with a purpose and a goal, that's going to be an advantage.
[49:30.240 -> 49:32.160] There's going to be ways for that to manifest.
[49:33.360 -> 49:37.920] I also think it's a lot about dynamics within the team, intro team dynamics,
[49:38.640 -> 49:43.840] which is things we can't see as viewers of the sport, even if we try to follow it really closely
[49:43.840 -> 49:48.140] by reading certain journals and stuff like that, we can get a sense of what's going on.
[49:48.140 -> 49:54.280] But everyone knows if you're part of a team where you're not really feeling welcomed or
[49:54.280 -> 50:01.400] maybe don't feel as respected as you think of yourself to be or should be, I think that
[50:01.400 -> 50:02.400] does a lot.
[50:02.400 -> 50:06.800] And we can't see that, but we can often feel it in the radio calls.
[50:06.800 -> 50:09.780] We can sense there's something bubbling.
[50:09.780 -> 50:15.000] And I think that is what hurts drivers the most when they feel that.
[50:15.000 -> 50:20.000] So Mercedes famously is much more fair than other teams.
[50:20.000 -> 50:26.440] In fact, I'd be willing to bet there is a formula that if the driver's championship is close enough
[50:26.440 -> 50:28.280] with so many rounds left,
[50:28.280 -> 50:30.380] and only when that formula is satisfied,
[50:30.380 -> 50:32.880] can you ask the other driver to give up a place
[50:32.880 -> 50:34.880] for the driver that might win the championship.
[50:34.880 -> 50:38.240] I mean, they agree to all these rules well in advance.
[50:38.240 -> 50:40.420] So it's a level playing field for the drivers.
[50:40.420 -> 50:42.600] But what's not level is the fact that Lewis
[50:42.600 -> 50:49.820] has been there since 2013, and has basically been the fastest driver this entire car this entire
[50:50.140 -> 50:53.660] Concept this entire team has been Lewis Hamilton's team
[50:53.660 -> 51:00.380] so even though they try and make that playing field double on a season-to-season basis the team itself is
[51:00.980 -> 51:03.680] inevitably going to be tilted towards Lewis and
[51:04.020 -> 51:06.780] What makes him quicker even as they attempt to be tilted towards Lewis and what makes him quicker, even as
[51:06.780 -> 51:11.100] they attempt to be fair to both drivers. What we need is we need we need
[51:11.100 -> 51:14.260] someone at Mercedes just to, if you're listening and you're in the Mercedes
[51:14.260 -> 51:18.060] team, just you know the best one would be the cleaner. If you're a cleaner at
[51:18.060 -> 51:22.540] Mercedes, can you just sneak into Wolf's office and just pull out the file, go to
[51:22.540 -> 51:29.920] H for Hamilton and just see what's in that contract because he's signed several contracts and you wonder now when he's got to the age and
[51:29.920 -> 51:35.440] the wealth where he doesn't have to be a Formula One driver. He's achieved an awful lot. He's
[51:35.440 -> 51:40.960] statistically, in championship terms, statistically his placings make him the most successful Formula
[51:40.960 -> 51:50.960] One driver of all time. There's got to be a part of him that goes, yeah, I'll stay if you make sure that I always have M&Ms in a bowl with all the green ones
[51:50.960 -> 51:55.280] picked out because I don't like the green ones. So I'm guessing the stipulations in his contract
[51:55.280 -> 51:59.920] have become more and more pushy. He's got more and more power within the team and the sport.
[52:10.720 -> 52:18.440] Maybe to close this off, but while all of this sounds really wholesome and like, oh, that's just so neat and sweet by Mercedes, you know, history shows that teams that have
[52:18.440 -> 52:24.680] a really, really distinct difference between number one and number two drivers are the
[52:24.680 -> 52:25.760] teams that mostly
[52:25.760 -> 52:29.960] win the championships. And I think if you look at Red Bull and earlier days, Schumacher's
[52:29.960 -> 52:39.320] Ferrari, McLaren Senna, when Prost had gone, when Alonso won his championships, it's mostly,
[52:39.320 -> 52:45.520] it helps if you look at last season, if at Red Bull, it wasn't so clear, Max Verstappen would
[52:45.520 -> 52:50.280] have had to wait a bit longer to clinch his second title, I think.
[52:50.280 -> 52:51.280] Yeah.
[52:51.280 -> 52:52.280] Yeah.
[52:52.280 -> 52:54.720] And let's include Mika Hakkinen and Kulthar in that.
[52:54.720 -> 52:57.040] Kulthar would have had him, but for internal politics.
[52:57.040 -> 52:58.040] Absolutely.
[52:58.040 -> 52:59.040] I'm going to stick to my guns.
[52:59.040 -> 53:13.000] Let's talk about the current world champion. Okay, another thing that people on certain forums have disagreed with me about.
[53:13.000 -> 53:17.400] Hump, I've not made best friends with the internet this week, man.
[53:17.400 -> 53:18.400] Not this week.
[53:18.400 -> 53:19.800] I'm sensing a theme here.
[53:19.800 -> 53:22.520] Fine, I'll continue to be wrong about things.
[53:22.520 -> 53:23.520] Here we go.
[53:23.520 -> 53:25.600] Max Verstappen has peaked.
[53:30.120 -> 53:30.680] There we go. Can we make that the title of the show? No, I understand that that's quite clickbaity,
[53:34.240 -> 53:34.960] but I think, and Christian's given me a right look here, okay,
[53:37.080 -> 53:37.840] not in pure talent. He may have
[53:49.440 -> 53:54.880] talent to come. I'm talking about the phenomenon that is Max Verstappen may have hit its peak effectiveness because he was a very different kind of driver when he came into Formula One. He was happy to take out his teammate, he
[53:54.880 -> 54:01.200] took out Vettel in China, he was just playing ping pong all around, very much like Lewis Hamilton
[54:01.200 -> 54:05.760] when he was frustrated in 2011 and he seemed to hit Massa every other
[54:05.760 -> 54:12.760] race. Oh no, that was 2009, wasn't it? But Verstappen came in just no compromise driver.
[54:12.760 -> 54:18.320] And a lot like someone can come into a sport in tennis and win a tournament, like the British
[54:18.320 -> 54:23.360] lady Emma Raducanu came into the New York Open and just surprised the tennis world.
[54:23.360 -> 54:25.200] Well, she hasn't done much since then.
[54:25.200 -> 54:29.920] And I've heard people, I'm not a tennis expert, say that that's largely because people figured
[54:29.920 -> 54:31.800] out her playing style.
[54:31.800 -> 54:37.720] And Max Verstappen might be on the verge of just losing the surprise edge where people
[54:37.720 -> 54:39.360] treat him differently.
[54:39.360 -> 54:45.800] So he's coming to the sport and then in 2021 there was a lot of circumstances where other
[54:45.800 -> 54:50.480] drivers gave him too much respect and the FIA, I think, were almost surprised, were
[54:50.480 -> 54:56.560] overwhelmed with the kind of things that Verstappen was doing. So he got away with, let's call
[54:56.560 -> 55:01.200] it what it is, it was a brake check. He got away with the brake check. He got away with
[55:01.200 -> 55:06.080] Brazil where he just ran Hamilton miles off the road. He got away with several taps,
[55:06.080 -> 55:11.720] including Imola. He basically got away with parking his car on top of Lewis Hamilton at
[55:11.720 -> 55:17.120] Monza. And they made rules around him. And that's not the first time that that's happened.
[55:17.120 -> 55:22.280] This isn't anti-Verstappen. If you are a Verstappen fan, you probably like the fact that he went
[55:22.280 -> 55:26.240] in there absolutely no compromise and basically tested
[55:26.240 -> 55:30.960] the rules of Formula One. The weaving. There was a rule, wasn't there, about weaving and
[55:30.960 -> 55:35.760] changing direction too many times. That was changed because of Verstappen. This could be
[55:35.760 -> 55:41.200] interpreted as a compliment. He came in and he made everyone think about how you're supposed to
[55:41.200 -> 55:46.240] officiate motorsport and how you're supposed to race against someone like
[55:46.240 -> 55:50.960] that. And Hamilton in many ways failed that test because he said time and time again before 21,
[55:51.520 -> 55:58.080] I just let him go because he's a maniac and I don't want to get tangled up in that and I've
[55:58.080 -> 56:02.880] got more to lose so I'll let him go. You can't do that forever because he's the two-time world
[56:02.880 -> 56:10.040] champion now. So I think now you either have to change the rules to force Verstappen to not drive that
[56:10.040 -> 56:12.080] way, which I don't really think they've done.
[56:12.080 -> 56:15.400] He's still a pretty uncompromising driver.
[56:15.400 -> 56:21.160] Or you have to be like Verstappen, and when you go wheel-to-wheel with him, you have to
[56:21.160 -> 56:27.440] be prepared to have contact or to stand up for yourself.
[56:27.440 -> 56:28.440] And that's what I mean, Matt.
[56:28.440 -> 56:33.960] That's what I mean when I say that perhaps the effect of Verstappen has peaked.
[56:33.960 -> 56:37.000] Well, you raise an interesting point.
[56:37.000 -> 56:38.000] Yay!
[56:38.000 -> 56:43.200] First of all, I would suggest to anyone who doesn't know, just Google Michael Jordan,
[56:43.200 -> 56:46.220] basketball player, kind of famous and traveling and
[56:47.000 -> 56:50.080] You will get a whole host of articles about how he
[56:50.720 -> 56:55.860] Basically got away with that his entire career and then with a little more research
[56:55.860 -> 57:02.180] What you will find is that it is a thing that the referees and this would include race directors in Formula One
[57:02.180 -> 57:04.180] I would and the stewards
[57:04.240 -> 57:05.360] Treat people who
[57:05.360 -> 57:13.760] were perceived superstars differently than they treat other drivers. Now the thing with Max that
[57:13.760 -> 57:20.880] you're referencing is that it's getting hard to deny because it keeps on being brought up again
[57:20.880 -> 57:26.960] by non-Max Verstappen fans. I mean, and we saw... And actuals, and mutuals like me bringing it up.
[57:26.960 -> 57:32.080] Yeah, well, and Gunther Steiner complaining about the black and orange flag still in print
[57:32.080 -> 57:38.160] just last week. So I think race direction is going to be under more pressure to
[57:38.720 -> 57:43.680] correctly penalize these. I think, I don't think we'll see Max change his driving style,
[57:47.680 -> 57:53.600] penalize these. I don't think we'll see Max change his driving style. But I do feel like automatically giving him the benefit of the doubt is going to be more challenging for
[57:53.600 -> 57:59.040] the stewards and for the race directors as he becomes more successful and more pressure
[57:59.040 -> 58:00.120] is applied from other teams.
[58:00.120 -> 58:03.720] And I just want to be really clear because I've immediately got loads of comments in
[58:03.720 -> 58:12.000] the live chat. I am not talking about a peak in talent, although very clearly that was the click-baity nature of how I led that segment.
[58:12.000 -> 58:17.000] No, I'm sure he can perfect his craft. He can get technically better, faster, more consistent.
[58:17.000 -> 58:28.120] I really am talking about the Verstappen effect. I want to add something that is interesting when people are coming up.
[58:28.120 -> 58:33.660] Take for instance, if you take like a rock band, a rock band that is like the opposition
[58:33.660 -> 58:36.000] to all the pop music right now.
[58:36.000 -> 58:41.620] So they destroy everything on stage and they get a lot of communication in the media and
[58:41.620 -> 58:45.280] stuff like that, just from being like the odd one out.
[58:51.120 -> 58:54.320] Now, you can't keep this up because eventually when you grow to perform on the main stage, if you destroy that every time, it will just lose you your job.
[58:54.320 -> 58:58.800] So there has to be a balance in these things. And that goes for racing as well. When you come up,
[58:58.800 -> 59:04.240] you're in a car that is slower than the other ones, but you can still keep it. I think a little
[59:04.240 -> 59:07.680] bit like Kevin Magnuson actually did in Spa, there was a race where
[59:07.680 -> 59:10.120] he kept Button and Alonso and everyone behind him.
[59:10.120 -> 59:16.760] And he drove on the edge and sometimes over the edge of what is dirty driving, but still
[59:16.760 -> 59:19.480] he fought for it, everything he could.
[59:19.480 -> 59:26.320] Now it's different if you have the fastest car and you still just play around with others. So I think,
[59:33.360 -> 59:39.760] well, not the rules on paper, but the human rules in which we view it changes when you're underdog or the world champion. That is one thing. The other thing, just shortly, is, no, he's not lost
[59:39.760 -> 59:46.360] it yet. I think there's a lot to come from Maxwell Verstappen still, and I hope for good racing
[59:46.360 -> 59:47.360] next year.
[59:47.360 -> 59:51.560] Yeah. So just to be super double, triple clear, yes, there could be more to come from him
[59:51.560 -> 59:56.600] performance-wise and driving-wise. I really am talking more about how everyone else around
[59:56.600 -> 01:00:02.880] him reacts to him. Like, will people cotton on that if you're wheel-to-wheel in a championship
[01:00:02.880 -> 01:00:10.400] fight with Max Verstappen, right from the beginning you've got to be as uncompromising as Verstappen is. And so
[01:00:10.400 -> 01:00:16.480] many times Hamilton leapt out of his way to avoid an accident, even on that final lap
[01:00:16.480 -> 01:00:21.680] in Abu Dhabi when Verstappen eventually made the overtake. Hamilton could have legitimately
[01:00:21.680 -> 01:00:29.100] held his ground and there could have been a crash and both drivers could have gone out, but Verstappen would have been ahead still and still won
[01:00:29.100 -> 01:00:33.400] the championship unless there was a stewards decision to take away points, which would
[01:00:33.400 -> 01:00:34.820] actually have been unprecedented.
[01:00:34.820 -> 01:00:37.400] I don't think I've ever seen that.
[01:00:37.400 -> 01:00:42.460] So I know some people are going to think this is going to come out as anti-Verstappen, but
[01:00:42.460 -> 01:00:47.760] actually as begrudging as it is for me to say, when you look at the
[01:00:47.760 -> 01:00:54.560] approach that Red Bull, Horner, through the media, through, yes, through the way they pressured race
[01:00:54.560 -> 01:01:01.360] directors and the way they put this kind of pressure on to people to sympathize with them.
[01:01:01.360 -> 01:01:06.320] And for them, actually, it's us who are 52G in the hospital. When
[01:01:06.320 -> 01:01:09.800] Verstappen was getting a routine check-up, they really painted that as if Verstappen
[01:01:09.800 -> 01:01:16.280] was on death's door while Lewis Hamilton was there parading. They played a total media,
[01:01:16.280 -> 01:01:21.760] a total performance, a total no-compromise game that has given them two world championships.
[01:01:21.760 -> 01:01:30.080] They pushed the limit in every single department, including finance. And that's won them two championships. And the other teams need to get on top of
[01:01:30.080 -> 01:01:35.120] that. One of Toto Wolff's quotes from interviews this week was that Abu Dhabi shook his sense
[01:01:35.120 -> 01:01:42.040] of fairness and fair play. But it's not a game of croquet in an English manner. It is
[01:01:42.040 -> 01:01:47.020] Formula One. It's elite sport. And they have, I think they've shocked
[01:01:47.020 -> 01:01:52.700] the Formula One world a little bit with how they've gone about winning these titles. Jules?
[01:01:52.700 -> 01:02:09.680] Agree. They took it to a whole nother level media wise, and also behaviour on track in the paddock, in the pit lane. But if you speak of can Max Verstappen
[01:02:09.680 -> 01:02:18.080] like up his game or has he peaked or not? I think we've underestimated him before.
[01:02:18.080 -> 01:02:18.800] Yeah, I agree.
[01:02:18.800 -> 01:02:27.080] I remember when he first got in a title fight, it was like, Ooh, can he mentally armor himself for that?
[01:02:27.080 -> 01:02:28.080] Yes, he can.
[01:02:28.080 -> 01:02:30.000] Will he choke under pressure?
[01:02:30.000 -> 01:02:31.720] And he didn't.
[01:02:31.720 -> 01:02:35.640] He fought that title fight in 21.
[01:02:35.640 -> 01:02:43.880] Despite how the outcome developed, he fought it like a mature guy and he didn't break under
[01:02:43.880 -> 01:02:48.120] pressure. And I think what could answer your question,
[01:02:48.120 -> 01:02:51.880] like has he hit his max or is there more to it,
[01:02:51.880 -> 01:02:55.340] would depend on how this season will go.
[01:02:55.340 -> 01:02:58.220] If he is faced with another real battle,
[01:02:58.220 -> 01:03:01.960] so not like last year when he can walk it home,
[01:03:01.960 -> 01:03:04.600] but if he finds himself in a real battle
[01:03:04.600 -> 01:03:06.160] and maybe a different battle than
[01:03:06.160 -> 01:03:12.000] with Mercedes or Hamilton, but maybe with Leclerc, who he fought in a whole different way last season
[01:03:12.000 -> 01:03:15.040] in the first half of the season than he fought Hamilton.
[01:03:16.400 -> 01:03:20.080] Just on that though, quickly, that was partially down to some rule changes where this is where I
[01:03:20.080 -> 01:03:24.480] think they did make some rule changes that Verstappen obviously listened to. So I think
[01:03:28.160 -> 01:03:31.840] a lot was made of like, oh, he showed Leclerc more respect than Hamilton, but there was some specific changes from the race direction as well.
[01:03:32.480 -> 01:03:37.600] There were, but then in the second half of the season, when Hamilton was back up to level and
[01:03:37.600 -> 01:03:47.600] started getting into duels with him, it all fell apart again. But, you know, I think the only thing that could better Max Verstappen
[01:03:47.600 -> 01:03:54.800] is the challenges he's faced with, because I can see him losing interest in this if he walks
[01:03:55.360 -> 01:03:59.280] to another one or two championships, because I don't think he's the type of guy that
[01:04:01.520 -> 01:04:09.200] keeps being interested or that has his fire, his flame going up for challenges like
[01:04:09.200 -> 01:04:10.200] he had last season.
[01:04:10.200 -> 01:04:15.480] I think he will go someplace else and find a new challenge there.
[01:04:15.480 -> 01:04:17.040] So I think- Out of F1?
[01:04:17.040 -> 01:04:18.840] Yeah, I believe so.
[01:04:18.840 -> 01:04:24.240] Yeah, he was already quoted, I think after the end of last season or during the last
[01:04:24.240 -> 01:04:25.920] couple of races races where he said
[01:04:25.920 -> 01:04:32.080] like I don't see myself in Formula One in like six, seven, eight years or ten years. Christian.
[01:04:33.840 -> 01:04:39.600] Back to the point you were saying Hamilton would eventually sometimes just say let him go.
[01:04:39.600 -> 01:04:40.240] Yeah.
[01:04:40.240 -> 01:04:47.960] And that is where I see Hamilton and Max Verstappen differ. Hamilton has matured in his role because of the many years he's been in the sport.
[01:04:47.960 -> 01:04:49.920] When he started out, he wouldn't let anyone go.
[01:04:49.920 -> 01:04:51.200] He would fight for every inch.
[01:04:51.200 -> 01:04:56.480] But that is what I think the only thing that Max Verstappen lacks
[01:04:56.480 -> 01:05:00.760] because he has everything and he's going to keep on winning.
[01:05:00.760 -> 01:05:05.920] I think it will demotivate him if no one teaches him stuff like this.
[01:05:05.920 -> 01:05:11.600] And it seems like the team he's in is basically, I've said this probably every time I'm on here
[01:05:11.600 -> 01:05:16.880] and I hate to repeat myself, but I don't think Red Bull is the right team for Max Verstappen
[01:05:16.880 -> 01:05:21.920] as a human being. I think he needs to be somewhere where they don't do the dirty tricks,
[01:05:21.920 -> 01:05:25.920] somewhere where there's a bit more heart, if you can say that,
[01:05:25.920 -> 01:05:32.040] maybe a little bit more family than a can of soda would be very good for Staben as a
[01:05:32.040 -> 01:05:33.040] human being, I think.
[01:05:33.040 -> 01:05:34.040] Oh, this is going to get so many emails.
[01:05:34.040 -> 01:05:38.720] I know it's hard, but that's just my take on it. Driving-wise, I don't think you can
[01:05:38.720 -> 01:05:43.840] better Max Verstappen because I think he's 10 in each category.
[01:05:43.840 -> 01:05:46.480] Jules? I fully agree with Christian.
[01:05:47.520 -> 01:05:52.480] One of the challenges that he might find himself motivated by is changing team.
[01:05:54.800 -> 01:06:01.920] Red Bull has nurtured him and he's become Red Bull and Red Bull has become him
[01:06:01.920 -> 01:06:03.680] in the last two seasons, I think.
[01:06:04.240 -> 01:06:06.640] But getting into another team,
[01:06:06.640 -> 01:06:12.880] whether it be Ferrari or maybe Mercedes or whoever is the best team by then, that could keep him
[01:06:12.880 -> 01:06:19.840] interested, I think. But doing like what Hamilton or Schumacher did in his days, like
[01:06:20.400 -> 01:06:25.000] string three, four, five titles in a row with the same team.
[01:06:26.080 -> 01:06:28.160] Yeah, I can see him do that.
[01:06:28.160 -> 01:06:32.840] Not like he's not able, but like he can be bothered.
[01:06:32.840 -> 01:06:34.160] Interesting. Yes.
[01:06:34.160 -> 01:06:37.120] People's motivations differ within the sport.
[01:06:37.120 -> 01:06:39.280] And certainly, you know, look at Lewis Hamilton.
[01:06:39.280 -> 01:06:42.360] He's been quoted as saying that there has been times
[01:06:42.360 -> 01:06:44.000] over the last couple of years, he's woken up and gone,
[01:06:44.000 -> 01:06:48.840] oh, actually, I don't want to do this anymore. So we know that the end is coming for Lewis
[01:06:48.840 -> 01:06:55.040] Hamilton when physically and talent-wise and status-wise he could probably go on another
[01:06:55.040 -> 01:07:00.240] ten years, looking at a lot of the drivers now. And Alonso's 87 years old and he's going
[01:07:00.240 -> 01:07:02.680] to start his first season with Aston Martin next year.
[01:07:02.680 -> 01:07:07.360] Look, this has been a really interesting topic. I am absolutely sure people are going to disagree
[01:07:07.360 -> 01:07:12.240] with us and you are more than welcome to. All our DMs on our accounts are open and you
[01:07:12.240 -> 01:07:18.800] can email us feedback at mistapex.net and that will go to Matt as well. Disagree with
[01:07:18.800 -> 01:07:23.320] us all you want. All I ask is just try and do it in a kind of nice, fun tone. Make it
[01:07:23.320 -> 01:07:25.680] a friendly email or DM or tweet,
[01:07:25.680 -> 01:07:28.720] and we're much more likely to respond.
[01:07:28.720 -> 01:07:31.600] If you say mean, nasty things about my panel,
[01:07:31.600 -> 01:07:35.840] I will definitely respond in a slightly horrible and snarky way.
[01:07:35.840 -> 01:07:36.880] Boo, be nice.
[01:07:41.360 -> 01:07:48.760] If you have to attack any of the panel, if you have to, then obviously Kyle. But, Christian,
[01:07:48.760 -> 01:07:54.760] we haven't on this show really talked about the politics or the politics ban that seems
[01:07:54.760 -> 01:07:59.480] to have been levied without permission. So you're not allowed to make a political point
[01:07:59.480 -> 01:08:08.320] without permission. We've not really addressed that on this show. We do tend to shy away from overtly political things, but let's tear that away because I
[01:08:08.320 -> 01:08:12.360] know you have opinions on this politics, man.
[01:08:12.360 -> 01:08:13.880] Well, it's not...
[01:08:13.880 -> 01:08:15.460] I wouldn't say I have opinions.
[01:08:15.460 -> 01:08:21.040] Of course I have opinions, but it's a bit to do with how everyone is reacting to this.
[01:08:21.040 -> 01:08:22.280] Let's just update everyone.
[01:08:22.280 -> 01:08:25.000] It's the FIA International Sporting Code 2023.
[01:08:25.000 -> 01:08:45.180] And this one says, it prohibits drivers from the general making and display of political, religious, and personal statements without prior approval in the sports regulations, which I think is a bit
[01:08:45.180 -> 01:08:50.640] weird because this should have been in the sporting code regulations from the beginning.
[01:08:50.640 -> 01:08:55.920] What we need to understand is you cannot have a sport where everyone is allowed to just
[01:08:55.920 -> 01:09:00.320] broadcast their own political views within the scope of the sport.
[01:09:00.320 -> 01:09:02.120] That will ruin everything.
[01:09:02.120 -> 01:09:09.520] Now do I not support all Hamilton's t-shirts, his helmets, everything Fedele did?
[01:09:09.520 -> 01:09:11.760] Of course I support that.
[01:09:11.760 -> 01:09:17.600] But should it be allowed to do within the environment of the podium of Formula One?
[01:09:17.600 -> 01:09:19.100] Of course not.
[01:09:19.100 -> 01:09:21.600] That is why the sport has to put this in the coding.
[01:09:21.600 -> 01:09:24.040] It has to be a neutral sport.
[01:09:24.040 -> 01:09:27.200] Now on the other hand, should drivers,
[01:09:27.200 -> 01:09:28.600] and I know you have a lot to say,
[01:09:28.600 -> 01:09:30.180] and you will say it in a few seconds.
[01:09:30.180 -> 01:09:32.880] On the other hand, should drivers and VIPs in the sport
[01:09:32.880 -> 01:09:34.600] voice their opinion about matters
[01:09:34.600 -> 01:09:35.960] that are important to them?
[01:09:35.960 -> 01:09:37.360] Of course they should.
[01:09:37.360 -> 01:09:39.080] And that is probably the most important thing
[01:09:39.080 -> 01:09:41.840] about a brand these days, be that,
[01:09:41.840 -> 01:09:47.280] are you an engine, are you a sorter, are you a driver?
[01:09:47.280 -> 01:09:52.920] The FIFA World Championship, I think, showed us there's a limit.
[01:09:52.920 -> 01:09:58.760] And the border of that limit is constantly adjusting, you can say.
[01:09:58.760 -> 01:10:02.380] And the new generation, I think, it's not like the new generations are going to come
[01:10:02.380 -> 01:10:08.880] in, the ones who are 15 years old today and say, stop it and we will change everything.
[01:10:08.880 -> 01:10:13.440] But the new generation will change everything in a certain way, and they're not going to
[01:10:13.440 -> 01:10:14.440] take it.
[01:10:14.440 -> 01:10:19.540] And I think it's evident for big businesses, governing bodies of other sports as well to
[01:10:19.540 -> 01:10:26.000] realize that doing things right is how you make money in the future.
[01:10:26.000 -> 01:10:29.000] And that is the adjustment I think we will see.
[01:10:29.000 -> 01:10:33.000] But I'm still looking forward to seeing how the drivers will react to this
[01:10:33.000 -> 01:10:37.000] because of course Hamilton will not stop voicing his opinion
[01:10:37.000 -> 01:10:40.000] as will the other drivers not stop voicing their opinion.
[01:10:40.000 -> 01:10:43.000] Now they just have to find different ways of doing it.
[01:10:43.000 -> 01:10:47.920] And that could probably kickstart things in a new way.
[01:10:47.920 -> 01:10:50.160] Doing the right thing is like a corkscrew.
[01:10:50.160 -> 01:10:53.240] You can push it down, but it will always come to the top of the water again.
[01:10:53.240 -> 01:10:58.080] I understand the sort of very grown-up approach you're taking there.
[01:10:58.080 -> 01:11:11.600] But my initial reaction to this was that really, there's a lot of Middle Eastern money. And it seemed to me that it was a very specific reaction, similar to what was happening in
[01:11:11.600 -> 01:11:19.280] Qatar and the World Cup, where people wanted to display support for the LGBTQ plus community
[01:11:19.280 -> 01:11:21.360] and display rainbow flags.
[01:11:21.360 -> 01:11:26.660] And it felt like this was specifically a way for the FIA, when they're racing in
[01:11:26.660 -> 01:11:31.780] countries where that is not as free and fair and open as I personally believe it should
[01:11:31.780 -> 01:11:36.420] be, it felt like it was a very specific way for them to go, no, you can't have your rainbow
[01:11:36.420 -> 01:11:41.780] flags if it's going to upset the host country. And I think that's, to me, yes, your business
[01:11:41.780 -> 01:11:47.600] decisions and the going forward in a responsible way is broadly correct.
[01:11:47.600 -> 01:11:53.440] But I just didn't feel like the motivation for that legislation was correct or didn't feel good.
[01:11:54.240 -> 01:11:59.440] Just a short comment on that. Actually, it was the Danish team who was the first team to talk
[01:11:59.440 -> 01:12:07.280] about using this, playing in the World Cup with an armband saying, we support everyone.
[01:12:07.280 -> 01:12:10.200] A supportive armband.
[01:12:10.200 -> 01:12:13.960] And they chose not to do it, which was a giant mistake from my point of view.
[01:12:13.960 -> 01:12:16.000] They should have definitely done that.
[01:12:16.000 -> 01:12:22.920] Qatar was, FIFA World Cup was a completely different story than Formula One.
[01:12:22.920 -> 01:12:25.640] We need to get those facts straight because here we're talking
[01:12:25.640 -> 01:12:30.680] about a country where a lot of people died building stadiums for this event, which is
[01:12:30.680 -> 01:12:37.800] just horrible. Formula One is not at that level. I know there is money within Formula
[01:12:37.800 -> 01:12:43.900] One, but if you really want to take that approach to life, you need to educate yourself on what
[01:12:43.900 -> 01:12:45.280] money really is, how they
[01:12:45.280 -> 01:12:50.260] work and where they come from, and how your own government are doing businesses with all
[01:12:50.260 -> 01:12:54.820] these countries and are dependent on some of these countries.
[01:12:54.820 -> 01:12:58.460] And because you can't just point your finger at Formula One and say, you do bad because
[01:12:58.460 -> 01:13:00.880] you like Saudi Arabia.
[01:13:00.880 -> 01:13:10.520] If you want to do that finger pointing, educate yourself. Know where to point your finger because Formula One is a little bit, tiny bit, small player
[01:13:10.520 -> 01:13:12.800] in this very, very big game.
[01:13:12.800 -> 01:13:19.300] And look, I specifically cite Middle Eastern countries because they happen to have laws
[01:13:19.300 -> 01:13:23.520] where it is not easy for homosexual couples to...
[01:13:23.520 -> 01:13:25.020] They certainly don't have the same rights, certainly
[01:13:25.020 -> 01:13:31.340] wouldn't feel as free, and that hits home to people from, you know, countries like ours
[01:13:31.340 -> 01:13:37.300] where it's relatively open and people can live their lives and get married and love
[01:13:37.300 -> 01:13:41.660] whoever they want, and then suddenly find themselves in a country where actually just
[01:13:41.660 -> 01:13:45.760] them living their normal life and loving their partner is either
[01:13:45.760 -> 01:13:51.960] illegal or frowned upon or shamed. So to us it can feel quite jarring to then be told,
[01:13:51.960 -> 01:13:58.880] no, you can't just display a rainbow flag. That feels like you're targeting a very specific
[01:13:58.880 -> 01:14:03.160] group of people. Now, if you could show me that the motivation actually was for other
[01:14:03.160 -> 01:14:07.040] things in general, but it does feel like it was specifically that.
[01:14:07.040 -> 01:14:09.760] I hope you're not misunderstanding me
[01:14:09.760 -> 01:14:13.280] because I'm taking a very, very broad perspective on this.
[01:14:13.280 -> 01:14:15.040] This is not like down in the meadow of,
[01:14:15.040 -> 01:14:17.640] is it right to race in Qatar or is it not?
[01:14:17.640 -> 01:14:22.080] Because naturally, we should not be looking at races
[01:14:22.080 -> 01:14:23.200] in these cities.
[01:14:23.200 -> 01:14:26.400] There's also a thing called the world and how it works
[01:14:26.400 -> 01:14:33.880] and the way all the waves are, the way they are going at these times are the right way.
[01:14:33.880 -> 01:14:37.960] We are talking about these things. Every time there's a race in Qatar, we are talking about
[01:14:37.960 -> 01:14:43.240] these things. Hamilton is wearing his helmet. There's going to be demonstrators and stuff
[01:14:43.240 -> 01:14:45.000] like that. And more and more people are talking about it.
[01:14:45.000 -> 01:14:50.000] It might not change in two years, but in 10 years, it will definitely have changed.
[01:14:50.000 -> 01:14:52.000] And things are going in the right direction.
[01:14:52.000 -> 01:14:53.000] I'm not saying it's perfect.
[01:14:53.000 -> 01:14:57.000] I'm just saying, point your finger where it's supposed to be pointed.
[01:14:57.000 -> 01:15:02.000] And along those lines, I think we could all agree that human rights are not politics.
[01:15:02.000 -> 01:15:10.800] Human rights are human rights. So if I am a driver and I put a rainbow on my helmet, is that a personal statement? Is that
[01:15:10.800 -> 01:15:17.040] a religious statement? Or is that politics? Because I could also argue inherently Formula
[01:15:17.040 -> 01:15:22.560] One going to any country, including mine, is political. Now, there are obviously countries
[01:15:22.560 -> 01:15:25.440] that are spending large sums of money, and
[01:15:25.440 -> 01:15:29.760] I know we've mentioned Saudi Arabia, and Formula One is not the only sport they're spending
[01:15:29.760 -> 01:15:34.860] money on, that want these sports. I mean, I think Azerbaijan was another one. They want
[01:15:34.860 -> 01:15:41.200] these sports to come to make themselves more palatable to modern corporate interests, to
[01:15:41.200 -> 01:15:48.000] bring in trade, to bring in new business. And so they're willing to spend the money, but they don't want
[01:15:48.000 -> 01:15:52.000] what comes along with that openness, and they try
[01:15:52.000 -> 01:15:56.000] and control it, which, fair enough, they're their own
[01:15:56.000 -> 01:16:00.000] sovereign countries. But if I've been invited as a guest, then
[01:16:00.000 -> 01:16:04.000] the argument... you see what I'm saying? What is a statement
[01:16:04.000 -> 01:16:05.100] really?
[01:16:05.100 -> 01:16:07.000] Is it something on my helmet?
[01:16:07.000 -> 01:16:08.500] Is it something I say on the podium?
[01:16:08.500 -> 01:16:10.020] Is it a t-shirt?
[01:16:10.020 -> 01:16:13.800] And the timing of it for me is what makes it,
[01:16:13.800 -> 01:16:15.360] and I think you agree with me here Spanners,
[01:16:15.360 -> 01:16:16.780] is what makes it suspect.
[01:16:16.780 -> 01:16:18.100] It seems like they're telling the drivers
[01:16:18.100 -> 01:16:20.340] you're not gonna be able to put rainbows on your helmets
[01:16:20.340 -> 01:16:23.780] like you did last season, but I don't agree with that.
[01:16:23.780 -> 01:16:25.680] I think that you have to,
[01:16:31.680 -> 01:16:38.720] as a country inviting people in, you have to navigate that with the people you've invited as your guests. So if a driver asks for permission to wear a rainbow flag in Saudi Arabia and they
[01:16:38.720 -> 01:16:43.760] say yes, that kind of knocked my point on the head. And I guess that would prove me wrong. So
[01:16:43.760 -> 01:16:48.560] if drivers are allowed to do that in the countries that I've stated, then, you know, I'll take it
[01:16:48.560 -> 01:16:53.240] back. If they say, please may we do that? And they say, yes, maybe the system kind of
[01:16:53.240 -> 01:16:57.720] works. But I guess, Christian, I've been sort of broadly lucky in that most of the cause
[01:16:57.720 -> 01:17:02.320] is like, what Sebastian Vettel, let's not destroy the planet and let's make hotels for
[01:17:02.320 -> 01:17:10.760] bees. I'm very, I'm in favor of all of those. He made a bee hotel in the shape of a Formula One car. How cool was that? And of course, have
[01:17:10.760 -> 01:17:16.260] the freedom to live your life and love whoever you want. As EJ points out, there was Nazi
[01:17:16.260 -> 01:17:20.280] salutes on the podium. And I don't express my political opinions too often, Christian,
[01:17:20.280 -> 01:17:26.960] but I am going to say I think being a current Nazi supporter, or a Nazi supporter really at any time,
[01:17:26.960 -> 01:17:31.600] is broadly bad. Would I support, that's the question I have to ask myself, would I be as
[01:17:31.600 -> 01:17:37.680] supportive of quote unquote political statement if it was something that I found less agreeable?
[01:17:40.480 -> 01:17:45.320] Let me put it in other words. I'm fairly sure we haven't seen the last
[01:17:45.320 -> 01:17:49.040] Rainbow Helmet or things of that matter.
[01:17:49.040 -> 01:17:51.240] Will we see more t-shirts on the podium?
[01:17:51.240 -> 01:17:52.240] I think not.
[01:17:52.240 -> 01:17:59.280] And if they crack down on drivers making statements on their helmets and stuff like that, I think
[01:17:59.280 -> 01:18:08.000] we're going to see some problems, I think, because that is the personalization of them. So I think they have put
[01:18:08.000 -> 01:18:14.560] it in the sporting code to be able to tell people not to wear this and that in certain areas and in
[01:18:14.560 -> 01:18:21.280] certain periods of the race, but cracking down on helmets, I don't think they're going to take it
[01:18:21.280 -> 01:18:28.000] that far. I hope not. Well, let's watch this space. And look, again, do send us your feedback on these topics.
[01:18:28.000 -> 01:18:31.400] And I think you can tell, you can see the fear on my face if you're watching on the
[01:18:31.400 -> 01:18:36.820] YouTube or the live stream. I'm just mentally unpicking, you know, the emails and tweets.
[01:18:36.820 -> 01:18:40.600] But it's certainly a different perspective because certainly as, you know, someone who
[01:18:40.600 -> 01:18:44.880] has happened to have been lucky enough to be on the side of the fence where I have agreed
[01:18:44.880 -> 01:18:45.360] with a lot of
[01:18:45.360 -> 01:18:50.280] the political statements or these personal statements, it's easy for me to say, well, it should be allowed.
[01:18:50.280 -> 01:18:58.240] I guess I would be tested if something I found abhorrent was being, you know, loudly politicized by an F1 driver.
[01:19:02.680 -> 01:19:09.760] And And finally, I think this will go to Matt, the F1 are banning all wind tunnels, so that'll
[01:19:09.760 -> 01:19:10.760] be interesting.
[01:19:10.760 -> 01:19:15.800] It's a tale as old as time, or at least it goes back to 2015.
[01:19:15.800 -> 01:19:17.440] It's been an ongoing discussion.
[01:19:17.440 -> 01:19:28.680] Wind tunnels are expensive, they are resource hungry, and with the rise of software and CFD and stuff like that, it's long been a dream.
[01:19:28.680 -> 01:19:34.000] In fact, I don't know if you remember, was it Virgin, their brief entry into the sport,
[01:19:34.000 -> 01:19:35.640] they said, we don't even need a wind tunnel.
[01:19:35.640 -> 01:19:37.400] We're going to do it all with CFD.
[01:19:37.400 -> 01:19:40.260] And they won 18 titles off the back of that.
[01:19:40.260 -> 01:19:43.280] And they also had a fuel tank that wasn't big enough to get them to the end of the race.
[01:19:43.280 -> 01:19:50.800] But that was a separate story. And so, yet again, in the pursuit of carbon-neutral Formula 1,
[01:19:51.600 -> 01:19:56.960] it has come out that these discussions are underway to get rid of or to ban wind tunnels.
[01:19:56.960 -> 01:20:02.480] Now, this is probably not great news for Aston Martin or McLaren, both of whom are in the final
[01:20:02.480 -> 01:20:06.240] stages of building new wind tunnels for themselves.
[01:20:06.240 -> 01:20:11.400] And you know, I think your average neighborhood aerodynamicist is also not going to be entirely
[01:20:11.400 -> 01:20:17.920] happy because the steps of correlation are from software CFD simulation to wind tunnel,
[01:20:17.920 -> 01:20:26.360] and then to testing on track, remove one of those supports, and you can wind up getting much more random problems,
[01:20:26.360 -> 01:20:30.960] and have more issues correlating what's happening on track with what's happening
[01:20:30.960 -> 01:20:32.840] in your design studio.
[01:20:32.840 -> 01:20:41.600] Okay, but realistically, right now F1 is using the wind tunnel time as ballast, which says
[01:20:41.600 -> 01:20:45.440] to you it's very, very important. And teams were getting upset. Red Bull
[01:20:45.440 -> 01:20:51.280] seemed very upset by their 10% cut on top of their success ballast for winning the championship.
[01:20:51.920 -> 01:20:57.280] And it feels like aerodynamicists kind of dominate F1. I just can't imagine a world without it.
[01:20:58.800 -> 01:21:05.280] Well, I think aerodynamicists do because once you get past the once the power units reach parity which we saw in
[01:21:05.620 -> 01:21:09.240] 2021 finally with Honda and their effort against Mercedes
[01:21:09.940 -> 01:21:13.440] Aerodynamics is really where most of your time will come from
[01:21:13.960 -> 01:21:18.320] So yeah, they're not gonna want to give up a tool that makes them more accurate
[01:21:18.520 -> 01:21:23.800] You would have a different I saw somebody right you would have a different kind of a series
[01:21:23.800 -> 01:21:26.000] If there was no wind tunnel
[01:21:26.000 -> 01:21:29.320] and the cars would not be the same as we have right now.
[01:21:29.320 -> 01:21:34.280] Excellent. I think that's as much of that as I can understand or digest, but look out
[01:21:34.280 -> 01:21:39.920] for a Tech Time coming to a place near you. So in two weeks' time. I'm hitting the road
[01:21:39.920 -> 01:21:46.000] for a little while, so in a couple of weeks we will have a that and a forbidden f1 fruits section
[01:21:46.000 -> 01:21:50.640] and any other segments I can rustle up for you people on that Sunday. Next week we're going to
[01:21:50.640 -> 01:21:56.240] have a mailbag with a substitute host but I will be in a camper monitoring along and joining you
[01:21:56.240 -> 01:22:01.120] guys in the Patreon slack group. Thank you so much for the ongoing Patreon support and the
[01:22:01.120 -> 01:22:09.200] recent flurry of Patreon support as well. You can support us at patreon.com forward slash missed apex. Watching those arriving in our inbox has been
[01:22:09.200 -> 01:22:15.400] incredibly motivating. Every time there's an off season, obviously the Patreon dips
[01:22:15.400 -> 01:22:19.680] because why would you support a podcast for a sport that's not running for three months?
[01:22:19.680 -> 01:22:24.600] So we do have a bit of a sad moment as the season trickles to an end, but we are very
[01:22:24.600 -> 01:22:25.640] much invigorated
[01:22:25.640 -> 01:22:30.240] and we're hoping people will get behind us for the new season as well. Oh, for that mailbag
[01:22:30.240 -> 01:22:36.800] show, feedback at missedapex.net. That will be the place to send your questions. Make
[01:22:36.800 -> 01:22:41.440] the title of the email, mailbag, and then we'll know to try and put that together for
[01:22:41.440 -> 01:22:45.400] next week's show. Let's's have some country specific predictions.
[01:22:46.300 -> 01:22:47.800] I know this is a difficult one Jules.
[01:22:47.900 -> 01:22:50.600] You are at Jules Segers with two E's.
[01:22:50.900 -> 01:22:52.000] It's at Jules Segers.
[01:22:52.000 -> 01:22:52.500] Is that it?
[01:22:52.500 -> 01:22:53.000] No F1?
[01:22:53.000 -> 01:22:53.600] Correct.
[01:22:53.600 -> 01:22:54.200] Correct.
[01:22:54.200 -> 01:22:55.400] At Jules Segers on Twitter.
[01:22:55.700 -> 01:22:56.500] Go and follow him.
[01:22:56.500 -> 01:23:00.300] There'll be a link in the show notes below and bold prediction,
[01:23:00.300 -> 01:23:03.700] which Dutch driver will end up on top in 2023?
[01:23:05.880 -> 01:23:08.600] Just because of the lawsuits, I think Max Verstappen will.
[01:23:08.600 -> 01:23:09.600] Max will sneak in.
[01:23:09.600 -> 01:23:10.600] Yeah.
[01:23:10.600 -> 01:23:11.600] Okay.
[01:23:11.600 -> 01:23:14.200] Will de Vries beat Yuki Tsunoda by the end of the season?
[01:23:14.200 -> 01:23:15.200] Definitely.
[01:23:15.200 -> 01:23:16.200] Absolutely.
[01:23:16.200 -> 01:23:17.200] 100%.
[01:23:17.200 -> 01:23:20.960] We've got Christian Pedersen, who after resisting for so long, you're now on Twitter.
[01:23:20.960 -> 01:23:24.760] I even saw you do a tweet.
[01:23:24.760 -> 01:23:29.840] I tried and I failed miserably, so it's not going to happen again.
[01:23:29.840 -> 01:23:30.000] No, come on.
[01:23:30.000 -> 01:23:32.000] It was my one and only tweet, just so you know.
[01:23:32.000 -> 01:23:36.080] He's lying. There's going to be selfies, so you should follow him at iKræle.
[01:23:36.080 -> 01:23:38.000] I tried to say the K in the Danish way.
[01:23:38.000 -> 01:23:38.480] Kræle.
[01:23:38.480 -> 01:23:40.240] Pretty good. That was pretty good.
[01:23:40.240 -> 01:23:42.560] Again, don't worry. We're not going to ask you to spell it.
[01:23:42.560 -> 01:23:47.660] We make things easy at MrApex. Just click that show note, the show notes below.
[01:23:47.660 -> 01:23:50.140] Kevin Magnussen, will he win his teammate battle?
[01:23:50.140 -> 01:23:51.140] Yes.
[01:23:51.140 -> 01:23:52.140] Oh, easily.
[01:23:52.140 -> 01:23:53.140] He's at heart.
[01:23:53.140 -> 01:23:54.140] He's got Hulkenberg, right?
[01:23:54.140 -> 01:23:55.140] Yeah, don't you think he will?
[01:23:55.140 -> 01:23:59.560] Don't you think Kevin is faster than Hulkenberg?
[01:23:59.560 -> 01:24:01.680] If you had said this, oh, everyone's saying it.
[01:24:01.680 -> 01:24:10.680] If you just said this five years ago and you would say right there's a lower midfield team with Kevin Magnussen and Nico Hülkenberg, I probably would have would
[01:24:10.680 -> 01:24:16.400] have bet on Hülkenberg but would no one have done that Matt? Back then would you? No? Nah,
[01:24:16.400 -> 01:24:22.520] K-Mag was always my guy. He was super quick and that McLaren, people forget he podiumed in his
[01:24:22.520 -> 01:24:27.040] first race ever. Because he got kicked down to a midfield team quickly,
[01:24:27.840 -> 01:24:31.760] I think he never got really the recognition he deserved for his talent.
[01:24:31.760 -> 01:24:36.000] Also, the Hulkenberg curse is if he ever gets near a podium,
[01:24:36.000 -> 01:24:38.320] he just gets pulled into an armco.
[01:24:38.320 -> 01:24:41.440] So as long as they're fighting for podiums, I think Magnussen will win.
[01:24:41.440 -> 01:24:44.560] But very confident, Kevin Peterson, thank you very much.
[01:24:44.560 -> 01:24:49.880] Kevin Peterson, what am I talking about? That's the England cricketer. Christian Pedersen,
[01:24:49.880 -> 01:24:55.040] thank you very much. Go and follow him on Twitter. Matt, American-based question. Two
[01:24:55.040 -> 01:25:00.040] things. Will the Andretti entry be approved? Yes or no?
[01:25:00.040 -> 01:25:02.600] Yes, it will.
[01:25:02.600 -> 01:25:07.800] And how will Haas fare, the American team, the extant American team, this season?
[01:25:07.800 -> 01:25:09.200] Place in the championship, please.
[01:25:09.200 -> 01:25:10.200] Sixth?
[01:25:10.200 -> 01:25:14.200] I think I would go for seventh.
[01:25:14.200 -> 01:25:19.240] Because if they change their development schedule, I'd be more on board.
[01:25:19.240 -> 01:25:24.920] And they do have Halkenberg, so maybe they score a few more points, but it's a tough
[01:25:24.920 -> 01:25:46.080] hill to climb. We're there because Chris Stevens is doing wonders trying to drag our social media into
[01:25:46.080 -> 01:25:47.660] 2023.
[01:25:47.660 -> 01:25:52.000] But until I see you next, work hard, be kind and have fun.
[01:25:52.000 -> 01:25:54.320] This was Mr Apex Podcast.
[01:25:54.320 -> 01:25:57.480] Be nice to the crew over the next couple of weeks.
[01:25:57.480 -> 01:25:58.480] Don't worry, they've got adult supervision.
[01:25:58.480 -> 01:26:29.360] Uncle Steve will be keeping an eye on things. ♪ Looking for a fun way to win up to 25 times your money this basketball season?
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