Magazine Show: Harry Benjamin and also DTS

It’s a special edition MAP Magazine as Spanners is joined by Harry Benjamin to discuss comms and the other end of the grid then Presenter/Commentator and 7News Sports Reporter  Jonathan ‘Jono’ Simon hops on with Trumpets, voice of the London ePrix, PR meister Chris Stevens and legendary streamer and sim racer Scott Tuffey aka Stuffeyy for some serious Drive To Survive dissecting. From comms box commotions to midfield mania, from DTS diversions to storyline central, no backroom chat goes unrecorded in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast.

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Come watch our iRacing championship!!!! With Stevens and Catman on Comms!!! 

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**Missed Apex Podcast: Commentary and the Back of the Grid**

- Harry Benjamin, a rising star in F1 media, joins the podcast to discuss the art of commentary and his experiences in Formula One.

- Benjamin emphasizes the importance of preparation and homework in commentary, noting the challenges of keeping track of 30 cars and their drivers during a race.

- He also highlights the supportive team environment in Formula 3, where he has commentated alongside experts like Alex Brundle, Jordan King, and Alice Powell.

- Benjamin discusses the pressure and excitement of commentating on Formula One races, particularly his first experience on the BBC coverage.

- He reflects on his journey to becoming a commentator, including a humorous anecdote about sending a commentary demo to F1 after accidentally destroying his laptop during a practice session.

- Benjamin shares his thoughts on the current state of F1 media coverage, praising the variety of options available to viewers and the increasing accessibility of the sport.

- He acknowledges the competitive nature of the commentary world and the constant pressure to perform well and avoid mistakes.

- Benjamin provides his predictions for the bottom three teams in Formula One based on testing results, with Alfa Tauri being his hot take for last place.

- He also discusses the potential impact of driver lineups on team performance, particularly in the case of Williams with Alex Albon and Alfa Tauri with Yuki Tsunoda and Nick De Vries.

- Benjamin emphasizes the importance of development and investment for teams looking to improve their performance and avoid being sold.

- The podcast concludes with a brief mention of Yuki Tsunoda's impressive fourth-place finish in the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, which is often overshadowed by the championship battle between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen. **Summary of the Missed Apex Podcast Episode: Drive To Survive Season 5 Dissection**

* **Introduction:**

* The Missed Apex podcast team, including Jonathan 'Jono' Simon, Matt Trumpets, Chris Stevens, and Scott 'Stuffeyy' Tuffey, gather to discuss the fifth season of the popular Netflix series, Drive to Survive.

* **Comms and the Other End of the Grid:**

* The episode begins with a discussion about communications and the teams at the back of the grid.
* Harry Benjamin, a current F1 commentator, joins the panel to share his insights.
* Benjamin highlights the importance of comms in F1 and the challenges faced by teams with limited resources.

* **DTS Diversions and Storyline Central:**

* The panel moves on to discuss the portrayal of storylines in Drive to Survive.
* They debate the show's focus on drama and manufactured rivalries, acknowledging that it can be entertaining but also misleading.
* Benjamin emphasizes the need for balance and accuracy in storytelling.

* **Midfield Mania:**

* The conversation shifts to the midfield battle in Formula One.
* The panel discusses the competitiveness of the midfield and the impact of the new regulations on the pecking order.
* They also touch upon the struggles of McLaren and the potential of teams like Alfa Romeo and Williams.

* **Cost Cap Controversy:**

* The panel delves into the cost cap controversy that emerged during the 2022 season.
* They analyze the accusations against Red Bull and the subsequent investigation by the FIA.
* The discussion highlights the importance of financial regulations in maintaining a level playing field in F1.

* **Toto Wolff vs. Christian Horner:**

* The episode explores the rivalry between Toto Wolff of Mercedes and Christian Horner of Red Bull.
* The panel examines their heated exchanges during team principal meetings, particularly regarding porpoising and the cost cap.
* They analyze the strategies employed by both team principals and their impact on the championship battle.

* **Active Suspension and Driver Safety:**

* The discussion turns to the issue of porpoising and the safety concerns raised by drivers.
* The panel debates the effectiveness of the FIA's response to the problem and the potential long-term health implications for drivers.
* They also discuss the historical context of active suspension in Formula One and the parallels to the current situation.

* **Conclusion:**

* The panel wraps up the episode by reflecting on the overall impact of Drive to Survive on Formula One.
* They acknowledge the show's success in attracting new fans and generating excitement for the sport.
* However, they also emphasize the need for caution in interpreting the storylines presented in the series and the importance of seeking out additional sources of information to gain a comprehensive understanding of Formula One. **Summary of Missed Apex Podcast Episode: DTS Season 5 Discussion**

The Missed Apex podcast crew, along with special guests Harry Benjamin, Jonathan 'Jono' Simon, Chris Stevens, and Scott 'Stuffeyy' Tuffey, dissect the fifth season of the popular Netflix Formula One docuseries, Drive to Survive (DTS).

**Cost Cap Controversy:**

* The episode delves into the cost cap controversy surrounding Red Bull Racing's alleged breach of the 2021 budget regulations.

* Christian Horner's reaction to the allegations is analyzed, with the panel discussing his perceived victimhood and the mental health card he played.

* The panel agrees that Horner's response was pathetic and that he should have taken responsibility for the team's actions.

* The conversation also touches on the reactions of other team principals, such as Mattia Binotto and Zak Brown.

* Brown's letter to the FIA, in which he called for strict adherence to the cost cap regulations, is praised by the panel.

**Alpine Driver Drama:**

* The podcast discusses the driver drama at Alpine, specifically the departures of Fernando Alonso and Oscar Piastri.

* The panel examines the domino effect caused by Sebastian Vettel's retirement and the subsequent musical chairs among drivers.

* Otmar Szafnauer's handling of the situation is criticized, with the panel arguing that he dropped the ball by not re-signing Piastri sooner.

* The panel also discusses the impact of Piastri's move to McLaren and the potential damage to his reputation.

**Haas and Mick Schumacher:**

* The podcast analyzes the relationship between Haas and Mick Schumacher, which ultimately ended with Schumacher's departure from the team.

* The panel discusses Haas's need for an experienced and reliable driver, given their limited budget.

* Schumacher's costly crashes and mistakes are highlighted as factors contributing to the team's decision not to renew his contract.

* The panel agrees that the pairing of Haas and Schumacher was a poor fit from the start.

**Other Observations:**

* The podcast also touches on other topics, including:

* Nico Rosberg and Max Verstappen's obsession with mentioning Mercedes in the media.

* The perception that Christian Horner has an obsession with attacking Mercedes.

* The intriguing conversations captured between Otmar Szafnauer and Zak Brown.

**Overall:**

The Missed Apex podcast provides an engaging and informative discussion of the key storylines and controversies from the fifth season of Drive to Survive. The panel's insights and analysis offer a deeper understanding of the events and personalities that shaped the 2022 Formula One season. # Missed Apex Podcast: Drive To Survive Dissection

## Episode Summary:

This special edition of the Missed Apex Podcast features Spanners joined by Harry Benjamin to discuss communications and the other end of the grid. Jonathan 'Jono' Simon, presenter, commentator, and 7News Sports Reporter, hops on with Trumpets, the voice of the London ePrix, PR meister Chris Stevens, and legendary streamer and sim racer Scott Tuffey aka Stuffeyy for a deep dive into the popular Netflix series Drive to Survive.

## Key Points:

- **Mick Schumacher's Departure from Haas:**
- Haas' decision to drop Mick Schumacher was influenced by the team's financial situation and their focus on experienced drivers.
- Schumacher's struggles to adapt to the team's aggressive management style and his expensive crashes contributed to his departure.
- The team's lack of support and nurturing of Schumacher hindered his development.

- **Coaching Styles in Junior Single Seaters:**
- Different teams employ various coaching approaches in junior single-seater racing.
- Some teams adopt a softer, nurturing approach, fostering open dialogue and providing support to drivers.
- Other teams use a more aggressive, hard-line approach, pushing drivers to perform at their limits.

- **Haas' Management Style:**
- Haas' management style mirrors the cutthroat nature of Formula One, prioritizing results over driver development.
- Gunther Steiner's particular hard-line coaching style and dismissive attitude towards Schumacher contributed to the driver's struggles.

- **The Impact of Crashes on Schumacher's Performance:**
- Schumacher's expensive crashes added pressure on the team, especially considering Haas' budget constraints.
- The team's emphasis on avoiding crashes may have hindered Schumacher's ability to push the limits and improve his performance.

- **Schumacher's Potential:**
- Despite his struggles at Haas, Schumacher has shown glimpses of talent, such as his performance at Silverstone, where he scored points and nearly overtook Verstappen.
- Schumacher's departure from Haas may provide him with a fresh start and an opportunity to rebuild his career.

- **The Importance of Confidence for Drivers:**
- Confidence is crucial for drivers, especially in Formula One, where they operate at high speeds and face immense pressure.
- The conflicting messages and lack of support from the team undermined Schumacher's confidence, affecting his performance.

- **The Role of Gene Haas:**
- Gene Haas' concerns about the cost of Schumacher's crashes and his preference for experienced drivers also contributed to the driver's departure.

- **Haas' New Drivers:**
- With Schumacher's departure, Haas has brought in more experienced drivers, Kevin Magnussen and Nico Hulkenberg, who are expected to perform consistently and avoid costly crashes.

- **The Popularity of Drive to Survive:**
- The Drive to Survive series has gained immense popularity for its behind-the-scenes look at Formula One, attracting new fans to the sport.
- The series has also sparked discussions about the challenges faced by drivers, team dynamics, and the intense competition in Formula One.

## Overall Message:

The podcast highlights the complex dynamics within Formula One teams, the impact of management styles on driver performance, and the challenges faced by young drivers trying to establish themselves in the sport. It also emphasizes the importance of confidence and support for drivers, especially in a high-pressure environment like Formula One.

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[00:55.760 -> 01:10.720] fantasy sports made easy. You are listening to missed apex podcast we live at one
[01:19.800 -> 01:24.800] welcome to missed apex podcast I'm your host Richard ready but my friends call
[01:24.800 -> 01:25.360] me spanners.
[01:25.400 -> 01:29.800] So let's be friends. We've got a packed show ahead of the first race of
[01:30.360 -> 01:35.520] 2023 that's the Bahrain Grand Prix coming up on Sunday and coming up on this show
[01:35.640 -> 01:42.680] we're going to be talking to a rising star on the mic in the feeder series and in Formula 1. Harry Benjamin is
[01:42.720 -> 01:49.440] going to catch up with us to talk about the art of commentary and a little bit about his work in F1 and then we are
[01:49.440 -> 01:53.960] going to go through the bottom end of the teams. We covered the top end quite a
[01:53.960 -> 01:57.200] lot but now we're going to look at the teams we think are going to be maybe
[01:57.200 -> 02:01.920] struggling a little bit more at the back but fighting no less hard for their
[02:01.920 -> 02:07.120] relative positions. And then a bit later on Jonno has assembled a team
[02:07.120 -> 02:12.800] of crack mist apex panelists to look through the Drive to Survive series. It's not a review
[02:12.800 -> 02:18.640] of the Netflix Drive to Survive series but they have found some stories and some angles that give
[02:18.640 -> 02:25.640] them the excuse really to recap a little bit of the 2022 season. So look out for that but first let me
[02:25.640 -> 02:29.420] remind you that we're an independent podcast produced in the podcasting shed
[02:29.420 -> 02:33.460] with the kind permission of our better halves. We aim to bring you a race review
[02:33.460 -> 02:39.740] before your Monday morning commute. We might be wrong but we're first.
[02:42.940 -> 02:49.200] So here on Missed Apex Podcast we like having a punt at some analysis.
[02:49.200 -> 02:54.100] We fancy ourselves as armchair strategists and we've watched things long enough to make
[02:54.100 -> 02:55.520] a reasonable guess.
[02:55.520 -> 02:59.640] And our guesses, although often wrong, are different enough that we're able to have
[02:59.640 -> 03:05.920] a debate and a fight about it, like when Matt incorrectly says, this year's Renault's year. Or he incorrectly says this year's Renault's year or
[03:05.920 -> 03:11.680] he says this year's Renault's year Ockharn's gonna win and we all get to tell him he's wrong.
[03:11.680 -> 03:18.240] So you see our weakness is somewhat of a strength but it's also very much a weakness as well. So we
[03:18.240 -> 03:22.640] like to bring you opinions from people who know what they're talking about occasionally. We drag
[03:22.640 -> 03:30.400] them kicking and screaming from the heart of motorsport to my shed. So today I'm talking to a very interesting young man who
[03:30.400 -> 03:35.540] is already an established voice in the feeder series comms box as well as commentating on
[03:35.540 -> 03:42.340] BBC Five Live for Formula One, a rising star in F1 media. It's Harry Benjamin. Welcome
[03:42.340 -> 03:43.800] to the shed.
[03:43.800 -> 03:47.440] Thank you very much. What a pleasure to be here in the shed. You big me up far too much.
[03:47.440 -> 03:50.520] I know absolutely nothing. I just guess.
[03:50.520 -> 03:56.460] That can't be true though, because you have to know all the things to be excited and informed
[03:56.460 -> 04:02.680] at the start of a race. And listening to your beginning of race commentary, you don't seem
[04:02.680 -> 04:06.000] to skip a beat. So you know exactly which car is which,
[04:06.720 -> 04:12.720] who we're meant to be watching, and there's no pause, and it all comes out in one. And I can
[04:12.720 -> 04:18.720] tell you do not have to fake that enthusiasm for motorsport. Oh no, not at all. The enthusiasm
[04:18.720 -> 04:24.240] comes very naturally. Yeah, okay, I do a lot of homework and hard work when it comes to,
[04:24.240 -> 04:25.520] particularly Formula 3, you know, that's hard when there's 30 homework and hard work when it comes to, particularly Formula 3,
[04:25.520 -> 04:30.480] you know, that's hard when there's 30 cars on the grid and half of them look the same
[04:30.480 -> 04:35.520] and they're all new drivers and they're young, so you don't quite know that much about them.
[04:36.080 -> 04:40.400] And then they will come hurtling down to turn one and you've got to try and call it. And I
[04:40.400 -> 04:45.760] think it was Bahrain last year, my first proper Formula 3 race where I was on my own.
[04:45.760 -> 04:49.520] I didn't have a co-commentator who would normally be able to pick up and all the other stuff. I
[04:49.520 -> 04:52.880] didn't have Alex Brundle to pick up on the other stuff that was going on in the background. So I
[04:52.880 -> 04:58.000] was like, right, I've got to somehow be able to call this entire race on my own. And it was
[04:58.000 -> 05:02.080] Formula 3. So it was absolute carnage at the same time and the first race of the season.
[05:02.080 -> 05:08.160] So you're still getting your bearings and things like that. But I do do a lot of homework. I always say to people, it's like revising for your exams.
[05:08.160 -> 05:12.320] You know, I make lots of notes and I've got spreadsheets and all this kind of stuff. So I get
[05:12.320 -> 05:16.960] very bogged down and all that. And it's just the way of communicating it to the casual viewer. Like
[05:16.960 -> 05:21.440] you sometimes, you might know, but you have to remind yourself like, oh, poor chair, that's the
[05:21.440 -> 05:27.000] green car, by the way. And having to build a story and a narrative whilst also following everything.
[05:27.000 -> 05:34.000] I mean, I've done a little bit of go-kart commentary back in the days where there was very little commentary talent around.
[05:34.000 -> 05:36.000] And it is blindingly difficult.
[05:36.000 -> 05:40.000] I remember doing a race where they just forgot to give me the driver lists.
[05:40.000 -> 05:46.600] So I was just commentating pretty much blindly off a timing sheet going, well, I think that guy's Derek Derrickson.
[05:46.600 -> 05:49.300] But yeah, so if you don't have a team around you,
[05:49.300 -> 05:54.000] I'm assuming that David Croft and Jack Nicholls have swarms of people around them.
[05:54.000 -> 05:56.500] How supportive are you guys out there in the feeder series?
[05:56.500 -> 06:01.300] Well, I probably speak on behalf of Jack here, having done the BBC commentary as well.
[06:01.300 -> 06:04.400] It's a very, very small team.
[06:04.400 -> 06:07.200] He's not getting as much support as
[06:07.200 -> 06:14.000] Crofty will be. In terms of Formula 3, I think, I mean, I've done some other niche series as well,
[06:14.000 -> 06:19.200] like Euro Formula Open and GT Open, and those ones, you know, you've got nothing, you are on
[06:19.200 -> 06:25.200] your own. You get parachuted in. Literally. And Formula 3 is obviously a bit more mainstream and it's
[06:25.200 -> 06:30.360] supported by Formula 1, you know, it's all FOM backed and it's the same production crew
[06:30.360 -> 06:31.360] who do it.
[06:31.360 -> 06:35.160] So, and they have a whole team, you know, PR team and everything controlling all that.
[06:35.160 -> 06:38.960] So I do get lots of stats and facts through it, I do feel a lot more supported, especially
[06:38.960 -> 06:43.600] if I'm alongside, I think last year we had a rotation of Alex Brundle, Jordan King, Alice
[06:43.600 -> 06:46.960] Powell, you know, people who I consider, they're the experts.
[06:46.960 -> 06:49.100] I'll ask them the question.
[06:49.100 -> 06:50.100] People don't want to know what I think.
[06:50.100 -> 06:53.040] It's them, they're the important people.
[06:53.040 -> 06:56.240] So yeah, you are supported.
[06:56.240 -> 07:00.860] In this modern day world, there's just so much information and things move a million
[07:00.860 -> 07:01.860] miles an hour.
[07:01.860 -> 07:08.400] It's hard to keep track of all the changes, especially now that in F3, you know, all 30 drivers can have Instagram, they're all doing something different.
[07:08.400 -> 07:12.400] And in a 45 minute practice, you know, you might want to bring that up at times if there's not
[07:12.400 -> 07:16.400] much else to talk about, and you've just got to try and keep a track of it all. And how they,
[07:16.400 -> 07:19.920] how you pronounce their names, where they're from, how old they are, all these kinds of things weigh
[07:19.920 -> 07:26.040] on your mind. This is why I was praising the Sky team for their coverage of the F1 testing, which is
[07:26.040 -> 07:32.120] about nine hours a day, three days in a row, with actually not an awful lot happening.
[07:32.120 -> 07:36.960] And I've done 24-hour endurance races where, you know, I was actually on a track where,
[07:36.960 -> 07:40.760] you know, you can't see anything because you were too far away and there weren't lights
[07:40.760 -> 07:43.760] at night that sufficiently helped you see the track.
[07:43.760 -> 07:49.040] And you still have to talk, you still have to feel. So there's that gap between just messing around and having the
[07:49.040 -> 07:54.560] audience think, are they taking this seriously? But you can't also just go, yes, and here comes
[07:54.560 -> 08:00.880] car number four again, and I can't tell anything. It's Test Match special coverage, isn't it?
[08:00.880 -> 08:05.760] Yeah. I actually really enjoyed it. I was a bit jealous of them. I would like
[08:05.760 -> 08:10.240] to be in that. Because equally, it's probably quite hard, but also, you can have a bit of
[08:10.240 -> 08:13.440] fun. It is just testing. You don't need to commentate on every lap. I think one of my
[08:13.440 -> 08:18.880] favorite moments was watching Jolien Palmer commentate on his own lap from 2016 in a Renault
[08:18.880 -> 08:24.040] around Bahrain, which was brilliant. So just hilarious, his commentary on himself.
[08:24.040 -> 08:26.800] So I think F1's loosening up and has been
[08:26.800 -> 08:31.680] loosening up over the last couple of years as well in general. So, I think it's more accessible that
[08:31.680 -> 08:35.280] way. It's more enjoyable to watch as well. Yeah, you can't take yourself too seriously.
[08:35.280 -> 08:39.920] I mean, look, we're just going to get deep into F1 media coverage, but I think one of the standout
[08:39.920 -> 08:45.600] presentations was the Channel 4 team a few years back when they had Simon Jones leading that.
[08:45.600 -> 08:50.960] Steve Jones, Steve Jones, out and out kind of entertainer and they just brought this very wild
[08:51.520 -> 08:56.800] entertainment style and like don't take that presentation too seriously but obviously when
[08:56.800 -> 09:01.920] the racing starts then you knuckle down. Absolutely, I love Steve Jones, I think he's
[09:01.920 -> 09:08.440] brilliant and I think Channel 4 wanted somebody who wasn't an F1 expert, who wasn't a nerd about
[09:08.440 -> 09:10.600] it, but who could bring that entertainment.
[09:10.600 -> 09:12.840] He's clearly become more and more knowledgeable as the years have gone by.
[09:12.840 -> 09:15.480] So Channel 4's line-up is brilliant, I think.
[09:15.480 -> 09:20.320] And F1 TV are amping up their own broadcast alongside Sky.
[09:20.320 -> 09:24.360] And I think it's a bit of a golden era, really, in coverage.
[09:24.360 -> 09:26.360] But on the other side, if you're a commentator,
[09:26.360 -> 09:30.440] if you make a mistake, everybody will call you out on it.
[09:30.440 -> 09:32.880] And someone else is ready to take your job as well.
[09:32.880 -> 09:34.680] I don't know, I don't want to put too much pressure on,
[09:34.680 -> 09:37.280] but saying as much as we love watching the feeder series
[09:37.280 -> 09:39.320] to see who's going to be the next F1 star,
[09:39.320 -> 09:41.160] we kind of do that a little bit, sorry,
[09:41.160 -> 09:42.500] sorry to pile the pressure on,
[09:42.500 -> 09:44.520] with the junior series commentators as well.
[09:44.520 -> 09:48.000] You know, you've got Alex Jax, who's going off and doing great things with Channel
[09:48.000 -> 09:52.120] 4, and then you see yourselves and Chris and Alex Brundle, and you just, you go, oh, which
[09:52.120 -> 09:55.880] one of those guys is going to be next? And you're all watching David Croft to see if
[09:55.880 -> 09:59.680] he has a, you know, trips and falls. I don't think he can, I don't think he can do the
[09:59.680 -> 10:00.680] broadcast. I'm ready.
[10:00.680 -> 10:06.760] I mean, yeah, obviously there is a little bit of that in all of our minds.
[10:06.760 -> 10:12.520] I think we'll be lying to each other. There is there is almost like a an invisible cue,
[10:12.520 -> 10:17.440] maybe I don't know. For sure. What happens next? You know, who goes up? But at the end
[10:17.440 -> 10:22.800] of the day, you don't know either. I never actually really planned on being a commentator.
[10:22.800 -> 10:25.440] That was never really the plan. I wanted to be
[10:25.440 -> 10:32.960] more of the anchor and a host, which I still want to do. I love doing the commentary, absolutely
[10:32.960 -> 10:36.640] love it. And I was petrified to do it the first time. I still remember the first time I did a
[10:36.640 -> 10:40.160] practice commentary. So here you go, talk about this. So I talked about this the other day.
[10:40.160 -> 10:46.160] Alex Jakes had just announced he was stopping doing Formula 3, and I was talking to F1 already
[10:46.160 -> 10:54.200] at the time, and I thought, ah, okay, I'm not a commentator, but let's, this is a good
[10:54.200 -> 10:55.200] moment.
[10:55.200 -> 11:01.120] So I ripped a Formula 2 race off of YouTube from about three years ago, Austria, on my
[11:01.120 -> 11:05.920] laptop, and I had a little sort of handheld mic and I watched the race a few
[11:05.920 -> 11:11.560] times and I was like, right, okay, I'm going to do some commentary on this race. Just do
[11:11.560 -> 11:15.740] the first like 10 laps, thinking that would be easy. And I couldn't even get around the
[11:15.740 -> 11:19.960] first lap without like running out of breath, without knowing what to say. And I was just
[11:19.960 -> 11:26.160] sat at home in my room trying to do it. And then once I got cobbled together, you know, two minutes,
[11:26.160 -> 11:27.400] the fire was so big,
[11:27.400 -> 11:29.160] it completely destroyed my laptop at the same time.
[11:29.160 -> 11:30.680] And I was like, oh my God.
[11:30.680 -> 11:32.680] But I managed to cobble enough together.
[11:32.680 -> 11:34.760] And that's, I couldn't send it,
[11:34.760 -> 11:36.400] I couldn't export the video.
[11:36.400 -> 11:41.200] So I basically played the video on Premiere Pro
[11:41.200 -> 11:42.280] because that was just about doing it
[11:42.280 -> 11:47.580] and filmed it on my iPhone as like close up so it looked like it filled up the whole screen.
[11:47.580 -> 11:54.720] Press play, filmed it, cropped it on my phone and then emailed it to F1 and said, hey, I've
[11:54.720 -> 11:56.080] just done a commentary demo for you.
[11:56.080 -> 11:58.440] I don't know if it's of interest.
[11:58.440 -> 11:59.440] Didn't really hear much.
[11:59.440 -> 12:04.160] And then, and then a few six months later, they rang me and said, do you want to do Porsche
[12:04.160 -> 12:06.640] Super Cup? And then
[12:06.640 -> 12:11.520] I got the F3 shot to do, sorry, Alex hadn't stepped out from F3, he stepped out from Porsche
[12:11.520 -> 12:16.440] and he was leaving F1 to do Channel 4, that was the reason. But then he stopped doing
[12:16.440 -> 12:19.600] Porsche Super Cups, then I got the Porsche Super Cup job. And then obviously, I think
[12:19.600 -> 12:23.800] he got COVID for one of the races that year and I got the F3 shot there.
[12:23.800 -> 12:24.800] So you know-
[12:24.800 -> 12:28.560] We'll pretend you weren't celebrating the fact that he got COVID and you had to step in.
[12:28.560 -> 12:34.160] Well, we'll pretend you were in tears about it. But I've been like that, sat in a radio station,
[12:34.160 -> 12:39.040] coffee room, having a laugh with another presenter. Oh, we're great mates, aren't we?
[12:39.040 -> 12:40.640] I want your time spot.
[12:42.560 -> 12:49.120] Alex texted me the day I got F3 and he went, so that that Austria audition
[12:49.120 -> 12:54.640] went well then, didn't it? And I was like, yeah, it did alright Alex, cheers. But I mean,
[12:55.440 -> 12:59.440] we are, you do get on, I don't know, you know, I'm not best friends with him, but you know, Alex,
[12:59.440 -> 13:03.280] we chat and we've been out for coffee, he's given me advice, you know, all these kind of things. So,
[13:04.080 -> 13:08.080] because I think he's the next best thing, you know, everyone, he's massive.
[13:08.080 -> 13:10.320] Alex Jakes. I keep saying Jakes.
[13:10.320 -> 13:13.680] You say Jakes, I don't know how to say his name for a while, but everyone calls him Jakesy,
[13:13.680 -> 13:18.640] so I just went with that. So, and he's a brilliant commentator, you know, he's commentator of the
[13:18.640 -> 13:26.960] year and things like that. So, you don't get that for doing nothing. But it is a bit like the driver market at some time.
[13:26.960 -> 13:27.520] 100%.
[13:27.520 -> 13:32.320] We're all in Formula One, you don't know who's going to have the seat for next year. I didn't
[13:32.320 -> 13:36.960] know what I was going to do. I didn't think I'd have F3 last year. That was all quite a quick
[13:36.960 -> 13:45.520] turnaround. And then to get the F1 call up so quickly into my career, I suppose, was a massive shock.
[13:45.520 -> 13:51.840] You can call it a career, if you want. And I found the coverage, actually, of you doing that,
[13:51.840 -> 13:57.920] that F1, for the first time on the BBC coverage. And my goodness, you wouldn't have known. You
[13:57.920 -> 14:01.920] wouldn't have known. I think you spoke for 85 minutes from the start line without taking a
[14:01.920 -> 14:10.440] breath. And it was brilliant. But speaking of the start of a race, like I've been watching F1 for years, but in
[14:10.440 -> 14:15.240] like in well over 30 years of watching, that moment before the cars pull away
[14:15.240 -> 14:20.080] and that moment where anything could happen, you don't know the order, you're
[14:20.080 -> 14:23.960] trying to see where the drivers you're looking out for are, that moment still
[14:23.960 -> 14:30.240] brings me stress and tension and anxiety and it pauses time. I swear there's just a moment
[14:30.240 -> 14:35.320] where they pause time before the cars pull off. I'm sure you don't have to fake that
[14:35.320 -> 14:39.880] kind of anxiety and tension when you're commentating, but you've got to somehow talk us through
[14:39.880 -> 14:40.880] it.
[14:40.880 -> 14:44.800] Yeah, oh god no, the adrenaline that pumps through your veins, especially I think on
[14:44.800 -> 14:48.760] the BBC coverage, you know, they still play the chain and that's what you do the grid
[14:48.760 -> 14:52.360] to. So you just come off the back of doing the grid with the countdown of the chain.
[14:52.360 -> 14:56.560] So you're buzzed from doing that. And, you know, I've also got people chatting in my
[14:56.560 -> 15:00.720] ear. I've got a producer doing this. I've got five live, you know, you might be on the
[15:00.720 -> 15:03.920] main five live or you might be on five live sports extra, in which case you've got to
[15:03.920 -> 15:07.840] provide updates, this, that and the other, and timings. And then you're waiting for the last
[15:07.840 -> 15:11.760] car to come in the queue. Then Jenny wanted to say something, she put her hand up and talk,
[15:11.760 -> 15:16.080] or Mark Priestley at the time who was alongside me, he wanted to say something just before.
[15:16.080 -> 15:19.200] And then I'm thinking, don't muck it up, don't muck it up, because I've got my little thing that
[15:19.200 -> 15:23.680] I say at the start, and I've got to time that right with the lights. So it's like, don't muck
[15:23.680 -> 15:29.680] it up, especially the Australian Grand Prix, my first Formula One race. So, and you're at, well, we were doing it
[15:29.680 -> 15:33.360] because we were doing it remotely. So that's, you know, 4am in the morning, UK time. So you're a bit
[15:33.360 -> 15:38.800] oh, yeah, your adrenaline is right there. But I suppose something kicks in, like broadcaster mode
[15:38.800 -> 15:45.120] kicks in, and you just go a bit narrow and you go right, I'm here his to a job. You know, you can't, you're not
[15:45.120 -> 15:49.840] looking at your notes anymore because you're calling the race. And you're just, you're
[15:49.840 -> 15:51.160] just keeping a track of the action.
[15:51.160 -> 15:54.880] I call it the broadcast bubble that I have around. When I see people being...
[15:54.880 -> 15:55.880] Yeah, that's exactly it.
[15:55.880 -> 15:58.920] Yeah. When I see, like, I have a guest and they're nervous in studio and I say, don't
[15:58.920 -> 16:03.160] worry, you're in the broadcast bubble. Your wife's not giving you a hard time. The cat's
[16:03.160 -> 16:11.040] not sick. You're protected from the outside world. But despite your incredible CV already, and my incredible jealousy, the
[16:11.040 -> 16:15.280] one thing that I really wanted to talk to you about, and this might seem odd, is when
[16:15.280 -> 16:20.960] you were a runner for the BBC and you tweeted about it, you were finding drivers on the
[16:20.960 -> 16:25.280] grid for Jenny Gao and Alan McNish to interview. And that is
[16:25.280 -> 16:30.720] just like, it's one of the most magical seeming things on TV, is that time where everyone's
[16:30.720 -> 16:36.240] on the grid, the engines are starting to fire up, but it always looks like chaos on those
[16:36.240 -> 16:41.480] interviews. Please, please tell me what it was like being a runner trying to interact
[16:41.480 -> 16:48.080] with these drivers who presumably don't really know who you are as a media personality at the time, don't necessarily want to talk?
[16:48.080 -> 16:54.560] Yeah, scary. It was very cold as well. It was back in 2016, I remember. But it helped
[16:54.560 -> 16:59.280] because I had a big jacket on that said BBC, so that always gets you a little bit further
[16:59.280 -> 17:07.140] across the line than somebody without one. It was 2016, so I can't remember it exactly, but I remember I'm quite
[17:07.140 -> 17:13.160] tall, I'm 6'5". And the first thought I had was, God, drivers are small. Everyone's like
[17:13.160 -> 17:18.400] a jockey. I could see the whole grid. And you know, Felipe Massa I think was there at
[17:18.400 -> 17:21.620] the time, so we grabbed him quickly and he was really nice and up for a chat. And because
[17:21.620 -> 17:27.760] it was the BBC, obviously we've got the British angle. So I think, I don't think Lewis was on the scene, but Jensen, I think, came and had a chat because he
[17:27.760 -> 17:32.960] was down in like 17th position for qualifying. So we start, I think we managed to grab him on his
[17:32.960 -> 17:39.520] way to do the anthem. And we might have got Palmer as well at the time, but I think we did get Palmer
[17:39.520 -> 17:44.720] at the time. But also it's trying to find celebs as well. And it's radio, so you don't have to worry
[17:44.720 -> 17:46.800] about, you know, cameras or anything like
[17:46.800 -> 17:47.800] that.
[17:47.800 -> 17:49.960] But I remember doing my utmost to try and keep out the way of bloody Martin Brundle,
[17:49.960 -> 17:51.640] who just gets everywhere.
[17:51.640 -> 17:55.040] And you know, I had so many people send me screenshots of me in the background of Martin's
[17:55.040 -> 17:58.480] gridwalk on Sky, which was kind of a bit weird.
[17:58.480 -> 17:59.720] And I think we got Anthony Joshua.
[17:59.720 -> 18:04.040] We had a chat with Anthony Joshua, the boxer, and I remember the most embarrassing ever.
[18:04.040 -> 18:09.600] He seemed like a really nice bloke. And Jenny had just finished chatting to him. And he went, oh, cheers, cheers, guys.
[18:09.600 -> 18:14.640] Jenny sort of then made to go away. And then he said, oh, thanks, mate. And I went in with like,
[18:14.640 -> 18:20.800] he sort of made to put a handshake, I thought. So I went in with the hand open for a handshake. And
[18:20.800 -> 18:25.700] he then went in with the fist bump and very nearly did the whole wrap
[18:25.700 -> 18:32.200] around and just about avoided it with some weird sort of side kind of knuckle thing.
[18:32.200 -> 18:35.900] And I just remember, cheers mate, walking away thinking, oh my God, that was Anthony
[18:35.900 -> 18:39.240] Joshua and I've just sort of weirdly fist bumped him.
[18:39.240 -> 18:41.240] So that was a bit weird.
[18:41.240 -> 18:43.240] But it was an amazing experience.
[18:43.240 -> 18:48.720] I watched the Sky coverage and you see Martin Brundle on there and people either don't want
[18:48.720 -> 18:52.360] to talk to him or they have periods where they can't find someone.
[18:52.360 -> 18:54.760] The grids are a lot busier now, obviously, as well.
[18:54.760 -> 18:59.500] I'm assuming you've got a producer running around or was it down to you to locate someone
[18:59.500 -> 19:00.500] to talk to?
[19:00.500 -> 19:05.960] No, the producer in that case, and still is the case, was up in the commentary box. Wow.
[19:05.960 -> 19:09.580] I imagine Sky do have one, and they've probably got a couple people on the ground.
[19:09.580 -> 19:14.720] And also you can pre-agree with PR teams to say, can we grab on the grid for five minutes,
[19:14.720 -> 19:15.720] you know?
[19:15.720 -> 19:18.720] So there can be some pre-agreements.
[19:18.720 -> 19:22.800] But for the Five Live, it was very much a grab somebody and go.
[19:22.800 -> 19:25.200] The beneficial thing about the radio coverage is that
[19:26.480 -> 19:31.600] they can't see you just wandering around, filling for time. And we had Alan McNish there. So
[19:31.600 -> 19:36.640] Jenny's there describing the scene, obviously, and making really in-depth and the commentary
[19:36.640 -> 19:40.720] of getting involved as well. It's a very different broadcast style, actually, to what you see on the
[19:40.720 -> 19:46.360] TV, which is what I love about doing it. It's so different to TV. So, so that was the kind of case there.
[19:46.360 -> 19:49.080] And then, and then you've got to clear the grid fairly quickly.
[19:49.080 -> 19:52.240] You know, you've got to get out the way and get out of there and don't, you know,
[19:52.240 -> 19:55.320] I was so petrified about bumping into somebody or a driver or stepping on a
[19:55.320 -> 19:58.000] front wing and breaking something, getting out of the way of a car.
[19:58.480 -> 20:00.520] And I just felt like, Oh God, I need to get out of the way.
[20:00.520 -> 20:04.920] And, you know, so big, like a big guy, I was just trying to just, just keep alive.
[20:06.240 -> 20:10.480] Um, and then before you all knew it, it was over, really. Obviously, I managed to get a good selfie back in the day,
[20:10.480 -> 20:16.880] no beard and massive sunglasses on my face. But it was a hell of an experience for me.
[20:18.560 -> 20:24.640] One, I'm very grateful for that team allowing me. It's the BBC team, but it's done by an
[20:24.640 -> 20:25.640] independent production company, which at the time was, but it's done by an independent production
[20:25.640 -> 20:28.240] company which at the time was a company called USP.
[20:28.240 -> 20:31.760] And I'd been the intern there and they knew obviously I was an F1 fan.
[20:31.760 -> 20:36.360] I got called on Friday to be like, can you come and have a chat?
[20:36.360 -> 20:38.760] Can you come and be a runner for us this weekend?
[20:38.760 -> 20:43.760] Which obviously I go, yes, I'm there 100%.
[20:43.760 -> 20:47.000] So it was everything I could have possibly dreamed of. I don't think I've
[20:47.000 -> 20:51.600] been on the grid since, funnily enough, because if you're in commentary, you're shoved in
[20:51.600 -> 20:53.000] the booth, hidden away.
[20:53.000 -> 20:58.960] Yes, yes you are. Yeah, that company, I just remember I actually, a couple of years after
[20:58.960 -> 21:03.600] that, I had an interview to take over the producer role. I didn't get it. The guy said
[21:03.600 -> 21:05.980] to me, he goes, now I think I think you're gonna try and muscle in
[21:05.980 -> 21:07.080] "'and do presenting.
[21:07.080 -> 21:08.860] "'It's not a good fit for you."
[21:08.860 -> 21:10.140] And I went, oh, okay.
[21:10.140 -> 21:10.980] There you go.
[21:10.980 -> 21:13.240] Bit of internal gossip.
[21:13.240 -> 21:14.620] Yeah, I know, yeah, I know.
[21:14.620 -> 21:15.460] I'm aware.
[21:15.460 -> 21:17.680] Although I did manage to surprise Jack Nichols
[21:17.680 -> 21:21.660] by sending him a selfie of me sat in his commentary chair.
[21:21.660 -> 21:22.500] He said, what the hell?
[21:22.500 -> 21:24.440] How have you got in there?
[21:24.440 -> 21:27.480] Yeah, I think he thought I was stalking him at his place of work.
[21:27.480 -> 21:32.520] Well, I'll tell you what, that was when I did my first ever bit of commentary, not live
[21:32.520 -> 21:40.160] on there, but it was the GP2 race on the Sunday or the Saturday and yeah, the Saturday. And
[21:40.160 -> 21:43.360] the team were just milling about in the comments, but it's not doing anything. And then the
[21:43.360 -> 21:45.520] producer Chessie at the time just said,
[21:45.520 -> 21:49.360] jump on, Harry, have a go. We're not live, but just try commentating on it.
[21:49.360 -> 21:57.120] I was god-awful, so bad. I knew who the GPT drivers were, but commentary was just so difficult. I was
[21:57.120 -> 22:01.200] like, how can anybody do this? Well, Ed Sheeran shared on, I think,
[22:01.200 -> 22:07.880] Graham Norton or something like that, he shared videos of him playing early on. And said, look, that is not someone with like a God-given natural talent.
[22:07.880 -> 22:10.480] That's where I started and then I worked at it
[22:10.480 -> 22:12.880] and then I brought myself up to this level.
[22:12.880 -> 22:15.680] But look, I know you think of yourself as a presenter,
[22:15.680 -> 22:17.480] commentator, a useful idiot,
[22:17.480 -> 22:19.280] and that you've got other experts around you,
[22:19.280 -> 22:22.880] but by osmosis, I think you probably do know your thing.
[22:22.880 -> 22:25.920] You know your stuff when it comes to F1.
[22:25.920 -> 22:28.080] So I want to get your takes.
[22:28.080 -> 22:33.140] We took a long guess at the top of the grid, and there's a lot of people incorrectly saying
[22:33.140 -> 22:35.840] Aston Martin is second and Mercedes is eighth or whatever.
[22:35.840 -> 22:40.040] I really have no idea where that's coming from, but I've screenshotted all the tweets.
[22:40.040 -> 22:44.360] I've got the receipts for when you try and pretend that you didn't say Aston Martin were
[22:44.360 -> 22:46.320] going to be championship contenders.
[22:46.320 -> 22:47.320] Not you personally, Harry.
[22:47.320 -> 22:48.880] I'm just saying to everyone.
[22:48.880 -> 22:50.600] But we never really looked at the bottom of the grid.
[22:50.600 -> 22:56.720] So I thought I'd get your opinion on who you think are the bottom three teams in Formula
[22:56.720 -> 22:59.640] One based on testing, testing guesses, and why.
[22:59.640 -> 23:02.680] Have you got a hot take?
[23:02.680 -> 23:05.320] I think Alfa Tauri are last.
[23:05.320 -> 23:06.680] That's really, that's big.
[23:06.680 -> 23:09.520] Yeah, I just don't think we saw anything.
[23:09.520 -> 23:15.560] They put in some good lap times over testing, but they had a bad year right last year, and
[23:15.560 -> 23:19.720] they just didn't have a great car and the development rate wasn't very good.
[23:19.720 -> 23:24.880] I don't think they've made that much of an inroad this year, or maybe they have, but
[23:24.880 -> 23:26.200] in comparison to the teams,
[23:26.200 -> 23:27.080] it's not enough.
[23:27.080 -> 23:29.320] And I think, you know, I rate their driver lineup.
[23:29.320 -> 23:31.480] I think it's a make or break year for Uki,
[23:31.480 -> 23:33.600] but I think if he can keep it together, it will be fine.
[23:33.600 -> 23:36.320] Nick De Vries, as we know, is hot property.
[23:36.320 -> 23:38.760] I think, thank God for Nick De Vries,
[23:38.760 -> 23:41.680] because although he is a rookie, in quotation marks,
[23:41.680 -> 23:44.600] he brings so much experience that he can bring to the team.
[23:44.600 -> 23:50.160] But I think the loss of Pierre Gasly will be massive for them in terms of looking at a development direction and
[23:50.160 -> 23:56.720] how to improve the team. And over testing, I think we saw a lot of their low fuel running times. I
[23:56.720 -> 24:02.400] don't think we saw many on high fuel, which is when, as we all know, that's really the time
[24:02.400 -> 24:07.160] you want. Anyone can set a fast lap time with no fuel in the car. And I think that's going to be...
[24:07.160 -> 24:08.160] Alonso!
[24:08.160 -> 24:13.880] I think I started, we'll be up there. I think there'll be a couple of midfield, but I think
[24:13.880 -> 24:23.520] bottom will be Alfa Tauri is my hot take on that. And then I think in the mix, I think
[24:23.520 -> 24:25.480] Williams have made a step up by the
[24:25.480 -> 24:30.160] looks of things. I still think they'll be towards the back, but I think they will be
[24:30.160 -> 24:37.240] clinging onto the Hasses and the Alfa Romeos, sort of on their coattails, with Alex Albon
[24:37.240 -> 24:40.360] putting in some great drives on top of that.
[24:40.360 -> 24:48.200] So both those teams you've mentioned there are in a position where we don't really know where that driver lineup is going to put them.
[24:48.200 -> 24:57.000] So if you remember Williams a few years back coming out of the hybrid era, they found themselves with Sorokin and Stroll at one point.
[24:57.000 -> 25:05.600] And it's not today's Stroll that you could well argue is a kind of a consistent midfield runner, useful number two. It was, you know, a very
[25:05.600 -> 25:11.120] raw Lance stroll, and I don't think many people really rated Sorokin either. And you wondered,
[25:11.120 -> 25:18.040] like, that car was going out in Q1, race after race. You go, was that really only a Q1 car?
[25:18.040 -> 25:22.240] You don't know. So if you've got Tsunoda and he's not firing, and if De Vries doesn't quite
[25:22.240 -> 25:29.520] settle in, they could have a close battle between them. But it's always funny with these teams and you go, well, how much is there on the table? A,
[25:29.520 -> 25:36.400] in pure pace, and B, in development as well. You go, that could be damaging for a team
[25:36.400 -> 25:40.160] that is being reportedly told to improve or be sold.
[25:40.880 -> 25:47.680] Well, yeah, I agree with you. But I think, I think Yuki is, came into Formula One with
[25:47.680 -> 25:49.160] a bit of a hype around him.
[25:49.160 -> 25:51.760] And then that, that kind of became a little bit undone.
[25:51.760 -> 25:53.200] And then, but then I think it went the opposite way.
[25:53.200 -> 25:54.200] And I think he was a bit underrated.
[25:54.200 -> 25:58.560] Like I think people, I know the Abu Dhabi 2021 finale is obviously talked about for
[25:58.560 -> 26:03.360] other reasons, but let's not forget Yuki came fourth, right behind that battle.
[26:03.360 -> 26:04.680] Had forgotten that completely.
[26:04.680 -> 26:05.360] Yeah. Wow. Yuki came fourth, right behind that battle. Had forgotten that completely. Yeah.
[26:05.360 -> 26:05.720] Wow.
[26:05.720 -> 26:06.840] Yuki came fourth.
[26:06.840 -> 26:09.960] And last year, the car wasn't great.
[26:09.960 -> 26:13.920] And towards the back end, he was either matching Pierre Gasly
[26:13.920 -> 26:15.640] or out-qualifying him.
[26:15.640 -> 26:18.840] And I think that went under the radar slightly.
[26:18.840 -> 26:22.040] And Yuki, I recently spoke to his now performance engineer,
[26:22.040 -> 26:24.680] Michael Italiano, who used to be Daniel Ricciardo's.
[26:24.680 -> 26:29.360] And Michael was saying, Yuki now loves, he's got his mindset right. He loves exercising
[26:29.360 -> 26:33.720] and training. He cares about what he's doing the day, he's eating well. He's moved to Italy
[26:33.720 -> 26:39.680] to be close to the team. So I think he's making all the right noises are coming out there.
[26:39.680 -> 26:42.880] And then we heard over the course of testing that Nick DeVries has come in and shaken things
[26:42.880 -> 26:49.200] up for how Fiennes do things in their factory. Franz Tost has been saying, you know, he's made us rethink how we do
[26:49.200 -> 26:53.840] some things and how we operate. So I think actually together it could be quite a fiery lineup. It's
[26:54.560 -> 26:58.240] a kind of, I think somebody said this over the course of testing as well, it's a bit of a lose
[26:58.240 -> 27:06.800] lose situation for those drivers because if Yuki does great, then know Nick De Vries has more experience.
[27:06.800 -> 27:08.640] He's a rookie so you just go yeah.
[27:09.520 -> 27:13.680] But if Nick De Vries beats Yuki then Yuki's been going to be shown the door right because
[27:13.680 -> 27:19.760] he's been chanced by somebody who is brand new to that team at least and has much less
[27:19.760 -> 27:20.800] F1 experience.
[27:20.800 -> 27:24.640] So there's no outright winner here I don't think.
[27:24.640 -> 27:26.560] It's going to be a bit of a lose,
[27:26.560 -> 27:32.080] lose. But I think write them off at your peril. I think they're both hungry and the Red Bull
[27:32.080 -> 27:36.480] pressure, I think, you know, does, you know, put a bit of fire into you.
[27:36.480 -> 27:39.840] Will you just put them last and then you're telling me not to write them off?
[27:39.840 -> 27:45.000] No, I think they'll be battling for, you know, P19 and P18 ferociously. Make sure you watch
[27:45.000 -> 27:46.000] that battle.
[27:46.000 -> 27:47.000] Oh, I see. I'm with you.
[27:47.000 -> 27:51.040] But you know, the thing is, you put them last, but I actually do think it's going to be really
[27:51.040 -> 27:57.680] tight in that midfield. I think it's going to be, you know, could well be an Alfa Romeo
[27:57.680 -> 28:01.980] plumb last at one point, but it could be as fast as the Haas that's in sixth because there's
[28:01.980 -> 28:05.440] been some retirements or whatnot. But that's going to be
[28:05.440 -> 28:10.800] the name of the game this year. I think it's going to be how do you get in front in qualifying? How
[28:10.800 -> 28:14.720] can you stay there? And can you make use of any reliability issues? Although we've not seen that
[28:14.720 -> 28:19.680] many in testing. So I think it's going to be tight, which I think is going to be great for
[28:19.680 -> 28:27.080] Formula One in general. I worry about McLaren. They don't look great. And I worry they're going
[28:27.080 -> 28:32.160] to be battling with the Alpha Tauris a little bit and the Williams is. Alpine are a bit
[28:32.160 -> 28:36.680] of an unknown, don't know about them, but McLaren is more obviously towards the back.
[28:36.680 -> 28:39.920] And so I say McLaren, Williams and Alpha Tauri are my teams.
[28:39.920 -> 28:40.920] For the bottom three.
[28:40.920 -> 28:41.920] Yeah, for the bottom three.
[28:41.920 -> 28:45.680] You can include McLaren in there. And I would disagree with you if it wasn't
[28:45.680 -> 28:51.200] just for how glum Lando Norris looks and how like snappy he looks in the interviews and things and
[28:51.200 -> 28:56.560] you go they are they are not happy you know he's looking at his contract probably now for loopholes
[28:56.560 -> 29:02.160] and wondering if Audi can't just hurry up a little bit and get into Formula One. He didn't look
[29:02.160 -> 29:05.880] pleased at all and McLaren look like they've kind
[29:05.880 -> 29:10.560] of made a habit of wrecking drivers careers at the moment. I hate to be like harsh but
[29:10.560 -> 29:15.920] like think of the end of Button's career, a big chunk of Alonso's comeback that was
[29:15.920 -> 29:19.160] supposed to be, Ricciardo, what the hell happened there?
[29:19.160 -> 29:21.280] And then Stoffel van Doorn.
[29:21.280 -> 29:26.400] And then it's just now if you are Lando Norris, you're starting to go, oh,
[29:26.400 -> 29:30.880] I'm going to be an old maid at some point here. All his mates have had shots in top
[29:30.880 -> 29:34.560] cars and it's just not happening for him.
[29:34.560 -> 29:40.000] If I'm Lando Norris, and I said this at the start of this year, and I'm delivered another
[29:40.000 -> 29:45.920] bad year this season, I'm on the phone to my old team principal, Andreas Seidel, and
[29:45.920 -> 29:51.560] I'm going, what's the stitch with Audi? Can I join? And that's where I'm going, because
[29:51.560 -> 29:54.640] realistically I don't think there's many other options that are going to bring him what he
[29:54.640 -> 29:57.120] wants, which is wins and championships.
[29:57.120 -> 30:01.200] And Ricciardo's probably sat at home after that testing and gone, because he'd have been
[30:01.200 -> 30:04.680] really gutted and sad, wouldn't he, that he was being shown the door and he's probably
[30:04.680 -> 30:07.920] had a difficult winter trying to reinvent himself, throw himself
[30:07.920 -> 30:14.480] into his new role and then watch testing and gone, yeah, that's okay. I'm all right.
[30:14.480 -> 30:20.640] I think Oscar's feeling though, is, you know, if Alpine proved to be a fourth best team
[30:20.640 -> 30:27.120] again and he's gone to McLaren. It's difficult, difficult, tricky timing. Although
[30:27.120 -> 30:32.080] I read a lot into what Oscar Piastri was saying recently, how it's important to be wanted by a
[30:32.080 -> 30:37.360] team. And I do think that goes a long way. Alpine I think made it out as if they put him in the car
[30:37.360 -> 30:41.760] because Alonso left them and Oscar was there. So we may as well use him. That's the kind of vibe
[30:41.760 -> 30:46.880] they gave off. And if I'm Oscar, I'm a bit like, well, McClaren really wanted me, so I'm going to go there.
[30:46.880 -> 30:51.960] Yeah, you want to be shown love, don't you? It's not, yeah. And money. I don't know what
[30:51.960 -> 30:56.720] the money involved is. But yeah, so if we're in our top, what was the other team you mentioned
[30:56.720 -> 30:57.720] there? Williams, again.
[30:57.720 -> 30:58.720] So Williams, yeah.
[30:58.720 -> 31:09.080] Yeah, they're a lineup though, where I've never had my fan spirit tickled by Alex Albon. I've never really
[31:09.080 -> 31:13.320] seen what is the result where people are really gunning for him and think he's a top, top
[31:13.320 -> 31:19.120] driver. And then obviously with Sargent, we don't know anything about him. But you know,
[31:19.120 -> 31:25.680] when a billionaire enters F1, I kind of go, oh, okay, great. Like the bar for me to be impressed by a billionaire is a little higher. No offence if you're secretly a billionaire enters F1 I kind of go oh okay great like the bar for me to be impressed by a
[31:25.680 -> 31:30.880] billionaire is a little higher no offense if you're secretly a billionaire Harry I didn't ask
[31:30.880 -> 31:38.000] no sadly not no no so there you go you go well maybe that's not in the top four or five driver
[31:38.000 -> 31:45.200] pairings in in F1 as well and for Williams you go I maybe they could have been a bit more ambitious in their driver
[31:45.200 -> 31:46.200] lineup.
[31:46.200 -> 31:48.200] Well, who would you have gone for?
[31:48.200 -> 31:50.320] Who would you have gone for?
[31:50.320 -> 31:51.320] Lewis Hamilton.
[31:51.320 -> 31:52.320] Lewis Hamilton first.
[31:52.320 -> 31:54.240] Yeah, that's a good question.
[31:54.240 -> 31:55.240] Who was available?
[31:55.240 -> 32:01.040] Well, I mean, the likes of Piastri, were there not better rookies that could come in?
[32:01.040 -> 32:06.400] Schumacher maybe was on the cards with Jost Capito, but then obviously Jost
[32:06.400 -> 32:15.160] left. I think Alex has rebuilt himself much like Pierre did after being ousted by Redbull.
[32:15.160 -> 32:20.160] I think Alex has learned probably quite a lot from being a reserve driver at Redbull
[32:20.160 -> 32:24.560] and watching Max Verstappen from the sidelines. I think he would have gained a lot from that
[32:24.560 -> 32:28.420] alongside sort of being in the DTM team because Alex was good when he came
[32:28.420 -> 32:31.900] into Alpha Tower. He's horror also slash Alpha Tower before he got prematurely promoted.
[32:31.900 -> 32:38.060] Like he was good. Had a setback much like Pierre is rebuilding and I mean, I know he
[32:38.060 -> 32:46.680] was up against Latifi last year, but yes, but I think Alex is a good driver. Logan Sargent, we have no idea.
[32:46.680 -> 32:51.280] He's had some decent F2 performances, but didn't win the championship, so you argue,
[32:51.280 -> 32:56.680] well, why is the sixth place guy from Formula 2 last year in Williams and Filipe Drogovic
[32:56.680 -> 32:59.120] isn't the champion?
[32:59.120 -> 33:01.880] But there's something that's been inherently wrong with the system for some time now.
[33:01.880 -> 33:02.880] So that's an issue.
[33:02.880 -> 33:06.360] But could they not have got a Drogovic?
[33:06.360 -> 33:12.280] Well Drogovic maybe didn't have as much money as Sargent, and also now he's tied up with
[33:12.280 -> 33:17.480] the Aston Martin development scheme, isn't he?
[33:17.480 -> 33:20.680] So I'm sure there must have been conversations that took place, but Logan had joined the
[33:20.680 -> 33:23.320] Williams Academy, what, two years ago, hadn't he?
[33:23.320 -> 33:29.760] So they'd kind of put money into him him backing him through F3 and F2. So there's a bit of a, well, we need to see our money sort of
[33:29.760 -> 33:36.000] pay in dividends here. So I think that's maybe the route. I'm excited by the lineup. I think,
[33:36.720 -> 33:41.360] you know, we can speculate for all we like. I think Alex will achieve the maximum of that car.
[33:41.360 -> 33:49.600] Logan will probably make some rookie mistakes, but you know, he looked very capable in testing, all the rookies did, and I think together they might be quite a good pairing
[33:49.600 -> 33:54.800] this year. So I'm going to now do a bit of gatekeeping whilst talking to a current F1
[33:54.800 -> 33:59.600] commentator, right? Okay, so whilst understanding that what I'm about to do is ridiculous. Okay, so
[34:00.160 -> 34:07.100] how we view Williams is probably very different. So I'm 42 you are like 20 25 25
[34:08.100 -> 34:14.720] Jealous, I'm 26 in two weeks. Yeah good. Yeah 26 kind of yeah, you're you are fading and losing the magic of youth
[34:14.720 -> 34:17.300] So that that pleases me. Yeah, Oh totally. Yeah, but
[34:19.040 -> 34:20.380] The fact that
[34:20.380 -> 34:27.640] Williams are we're even talking about whether they might be ninth or or maybe even eighth and hanging on to the tails or the back of the midfield. To me that's
[34:27.640 -> 34:32.000] a championship winning team. That is Mansell, that is Ayrton Senna, you know
[34:32.000 -> 34:36.240] that's Prost and to hear these kind of decisions they make with drivers is
[34:36.240 -> 34:41.580] really sad for me. So when like when they had Sir Rockingham and Stroll, to me
[34:41.580 -> 34:46.920] that team seemed to kind of,the entity, the spirit of my Williams
[34:46.920 -> 34:49.440] seemed to sort of fall away.
[34:49.440 -> 34:54.320] But I really do want them to be the team that can go out and get the real talent on the
[34:54.320 -> 34:58.120] grid and not have to think about how much money that brings in.
[34:58.120 -> 35:02.480] And it says to me, if they're still bringing in...let's call it what it is, they're bringing
[35:02.480 -> 35:08.500] in a paid driver, that if they're still in that position, perhaps the ambition isn't to drive forward as much
[35:08.500 -> 35:11.500] as this 80s kid wants them to.
[35:11.500 -> 35:16.440] Yeah, I get it. I completely get it. I have a whole thing where, you know, everybody's
[35:16.440 -> 35:20.900] a pay driver in my opinion. So, you know, money's got to come from somewhere, right?
[35:20.900 -> 35:28.000] And you know, if you've got a rich dad, then great. Or if you're Lewis Hamilton, link up with a team. Obviously, the money sounds better if it's coming from a team.
[35:28.000 -> 35:33.520] Yeah, I'll fight back on that slightly, because I'll say that to me, if you're a pay driver,
[35:33.520 -> 35:37.960] if the money comes because of who you are, whereas if the money comes because of what
[35:37.960 -> 35:42.600] you can do, I don't personally class that as a pay driver. So I think I need a different
[35:42.600 -> 35:46.360] term. I try to use the term buy-in driver and I should have used that.
[35:46.360 -> 35:48.840] Okay. Well, how do you look at Lando Norris?
[35:48.840 -> 35:52.680] Yeah. And that's a really, really interesting one because not a lot of people pick up on
[35:52.680 -> 35:58.560] the fact that he bought in for his first seat in his first year of Formula One and did come
[35:58.560 -> 36:04.040] in as a buy-in driver, but was also hyped up as a genuine talent and one of the most
[36:04.040 -> 36:05.200] prepared young F1 drivers to enter the sport. And then he got to a point where McLaren, buy-in driver, but was also hyped up as a genuine talent and one of the most prepared
[36:05.200 -> 36:10.760] young F1 drivers to enter the sport. And then he got to a point where McLaren, he now takes
[36:10.760 -> 36:15.600] a salary, he's not a buy-in driver anymore. So yeah, that's a really interesting one.
[36:15.600 -> 36:20.960] You could argue then, was Lando Norris the best ever buy-in driver? And I'm sure people
[36:20.960 -> 36:21.960] will say...
[36:21.960 -> 36:27.040] I mean, Lando Norris was very well prepared because he was able to afford to go testing
[36:27.040 -> 36:29.280] when others couldn't in junior formula.
[36:29.280 -> 36:32.040] And he had a father who could buy him loads of new tires
[36:32.040 -> 36:34.480] and he could just keep pounding in the laps with new tires.
[36:34.480 -> 36:36.880] And arguably the more testing you do, the better you get.
[36:36.880 -> 36:41.040] So it's really difficult to argue with a factor.
[36:41.040 -> 36:43.560] That's why when you bring up Sergei Sorotkin
[36:43.560 -> 36:45.600] or people like that, I agree that
[36:45.600 -> 36:52.080] era of Williams, the personality probably really was sucked out of the team. But maybe this is the
[36:52.080 -> 36:56.720] broadcaster in me because I was a fan and I am still a fan, but I don't get attached to it.
[36:56.720 -> 37:08.400] I'll always be attached to one driver in particular, but he's not yeah. Yeah, Paul di Resta. But he is very controversial. But he,
[37:09.120 -> 37:14.880] he... So rocking, I think, and people like that, I think it's, you can't judge, like it's a rich,
[37:14.880 -> 37:20.000] it's a rich man's sport, unfortunately. And it always has been, let's not kid about that.
[37:20.000 -> 37:24.880] And I don't judge, you know, if they perform well, then suddenly you forget they're a buy-in driver,
[37:24.880 -> 37:29.680] don't you? Yeah, and that's... And if they've got a good personality, like Lando, you forget they're a buy-in driver,
[37:29.680 -> 37:34.800] as you say. Buy-in driver. Yeah, so I'll work on the phrasing. But yeah, so at every level,
[37:35.520 -> 37:39.840] every driver was a buy-in driver at some point. So Lewis Hamilton buying his own go-karts,
[37:39.840 -> 37:44.160] at that level was a buy-in driver, and that would have put him beyond certainly like my
[37:46.480 -> 37:48.400] circumstances as a kid. We wouldn't have been able to jump up to that.
[37:48.400 -> 37:53.120] So yeah, there's a scale of how high are you gonna buy in
[37:53.120 -> 37:56.640] or can you buy in until you can convince someone ultimately
[37:56.640 -> 37:58.280] to pay you to do it.
[37:58.280 -> 38:01.200] And the best example of that is Lando Norris
[38:01.200 -> 38:02.800] having to go all the way to F1
[38:02.800 -> 38:04.440] and then getting picked up for a drive.
[38:04.440 -> 38:10.160] Because a lot of the buy-in drivers fall away after a few years or after a couple of years. Exactly and maybe with
[38:10.160 -> 38:14.960] the exception of, I mean Lance Stroll is a really interesting case because he has proven that he can
[38:14.960 -> 38:21.200] be on pole positions, he can get podiums and he can score points but unfortunately the fact that
[38:21.200 -> 38:26.560] his dad bought a team for him and he will race there for the rest of his
[38:26.560 -> 38:32.240] career until his dad leaves or until Lando decides he can't be asked to do it anymore.
[38:32.240 -> 38:34.480] That is a unique situation, I think.
[38:34.480 -> 38:35.480] Oh, Lance.
[38:35.480 -> 38:39.320] We mixed up our billionaires there, didn't we?
[38:39.320 -> 38:43.640] Until Lance decides that he doesn't want to do it anymore.
[38:43.640 -> 38:47.200] So that's a really unique situation.
[38:47.200 -> 38:49.280] And it just shows with unprecedented
[38:49.280 -> 38:52.560] and unlimited funds and practice and resources,
[38:52.560 -> 38:56.200] you can get to the point where you can be pretty good.
[38:56.200 -> 39:00.920] Like in the scale of all F1 drivers that have existed,
[39:00.920 -> 39:03.760] he's pretty high on his general ability.
[39:03.760 -> 39:09.720] And I think there would be a case if you were a new team coming in and you were looking
[39:09.720 -> 39:14.640] around the driver market, you had your, say, your young gun, your Alex Albon or whatever,
[39:14.640 -> 39:17.960] your Pierre Gasly, that's a better example, that you wanted to drive the team forward.
[39:17.960 -> 39:22.200] I think there's a case you could go, right, Stroll is a consistent marker.
[39:22.200 -> 39:23.920] We know his ability, bring him in.
[39:23.920 -> 39:25.240] He can be a useful
[39:25.240 -> 39:31.160] driver to the team. So for him to come from where he was to that is good, but no other
[39:31.160 -> 39:36.480] driver in history would have had the time, resources and space to be able to get to that
[39:36.480 -> 39:37.480] level.
[39:37.480 -> 39:42.640] But totally, it's a fascinating subject that you can debate until the cows come home, really,
[39:42.640 -> 39:45.200] and will be continued to be debated throughout the
[39:45.200 -> 39:51.760] years until, you know, Nico Rosberg, you know, where did his money come from? You know, he
[39:51.760 -> 39:55.960] grew up in Monaco, his dad was obviously a Formula One driver, but he became a champion.
[39:55.960 -> 40:00.400] So yeah, it's just, it's really difficult to gauge it. I just think don't judge until
[40:00.400 -> 40:06.000] they performed on track, simple as. Okay. Do you know what? We've been very, it's been very nice to meet you, Harry,
[40:06.000 -> 40:07.000] and we've had a very...
[40:07.000 -> 40:08.000] But that's enough.
[40:08.000 -> 40:10.000] Yeah, but get out of my shed.
[40:10.000 -> 40:11.000] But I don't know, we've been quite,
[40:11.000 -> 40:13.000] we've been reasonably polite.
[40:13.000 -> 40:14.000] We're getting to know each other here.
[40:14.000 -> 40:17.000] I think you and me could have a really good row
[40:17.000 -> 40:19.000] at some point if we let the gloves off.
[40:19.000 -> 40:21.000] So you are welcome back into the shed
[40:21.000 -> 40:27.440] to tell me when I'm wrong on any subject, anytime. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, mate.
[40:27.440 -> 40:31.960] Oh, where can people go and follow you and stuff? We need to hype up your Twitter account.
[40:31.960 -> 40:32.960] Absolutely.
[40:32.960 -> 40:33.960] Your Instagram.
[40:33.960 -> 40:35.960] Twitter, Instagram. I'm a TikToker.
[40:35.960 -> 40:36.960] Are you now?
[40:36.960 -> 40:44.000] I do TikToks. Yeah, it's at I'm Harry Benjamin. I am Harry Benjamin on pretty much everything.
[40:44.000 -> 40:46.000] So find me there on
[40:46.000 -> 40:47.000] all the various things.
[40:47.000 -> 40:50.240] Oh yeah, I am. I am Harry Benjamin on Twitter.
[40:50.240 -> 40:53.960] I couldn't have I am, so I went for I'm. So it's like him, Harry Benjamin.
[40:53.960 -> 40:57.200] And what we'll do is we'll have all the links to your social media in the show notes so
[40:57.200 -> 41:02.680] that our viewers and listeners can go and find you as I think everyone should. And I
[41:02.680 -> 41:05.600] look forward to seeing you on the feeder series commentary.
[41:05.600 -> 41:10.480] I believe you're doing quite a lot of races this season, so we won't be short of hearing
[41:10.480 -> 41:16.000] Benjamin's voice. No, I'll be popping up on all sorts of various things, so forgive me in advance
[41:16.000 -> 41:25.000] for that. Thank you very much, Harry Benjamin. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate.
[41:25.000 -> 41:26.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:26.000 -> 41:27.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:27.000 -> 41:28.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:28.000 -> 41:29.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:29.000 -> 41:30.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:30.000 -> 41:31.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:31.000 -> 41:32.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:32.000 -> 41:33.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:33.000 -> 41:34.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:34.000 -> 41:35.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:35.000 -> 41:36.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:36.000 -> 41:37.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:37.000 -> 41:38.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:38.000 -> 41:39.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:39.000 -> 41:40.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:40.000 -> 41:41.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:41.000 -> 41:42.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:42.000 -> 41:43.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:43.000 -> 41:44.000] Cheers, mate.
[41:44.000 -> 41:45.120] Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. sit down and take a look at some of the insights and stories that emerged from the series.
[41:45.120 -> 41:50.520] I'm your host Jonathan Simon, but my friends call me Jonathan Simon, and we've assembled
[41:50.520 -> 41:54.880] a panel of expert fans to help me out, starting with Mad Trumpets.
[41:54.880 -> 41:57.200] Matt, how's it going?
[41:57.200 -> 42:01.400] I applaud your mediocre effort at my name.
[42:01.400 -> 42:04.280] And sleep, who needs sleep with Netflix?
[42:04.280 -> 42:08.320] Well, you Matt, binge-dri Drive to Survive with the Wife this time.
[42:08.320 -> 42:09.660] Yeah, I did.
[42:09.660 -> 42:14.000] So it didn't really just turn into an all-nighter because she goes to bed at like 9 o'clock.
[42:14.000 -> 42:16.960] But you'll probably find that out later.
[42:16.960 -> 42:19.680] And PR Guru Chris Stevens also joins us.
[42:19.680 -> 42:20.680] Chris, how's it going?
[42:20.680 -> 42:22.360] Yeah, hey Jono, I'm doing good.
[42:22.360 -> 42:29.000] I've finally recovered after losing an entire weekend to binging a Netflix show.
[42:29.000 -> 42:30.600] Nothing new, nothing new.
[42:30.600 -> 42:31.860] How did you find this series?
[42:31.860 -> 42:33.440] It seemed to be one of your favorites.
[42:33.440 -> 42:37.960] Yeah, I've already said this on the show on Sunday and I've tweeted about it as well.
[42:37.960 -> 42:42.280] I thoroughly enjoyed it and I thought it was one of the best, if not the best, series they've
[42:42.280 -> 42:43.280] done.
[42:43.280 -> 42:47.480] Yes, yes. And of course, expert sim racer and streamer,
[42:47.480 -> 42:50.160] Scott Stuffy Tuffy returns to the podcast.
[42:50.160 -> 42:51.640] What's been happening, Scott?
[42:51.640 -> 42:53.680] Hey, Jonathan, thanks for having me back.
[42:53.680 -> 42:54.720] Yeah, like the others,
[42:54.720 -> 42:56.920] binge watched with the Mrs.
[42:56.920 -> 42:59.600] Netflix, Strive to Survive over the weekend.
[42:59.600 -> 43:02.520] Yes, getting hyped for the new season ahead.
[43:03.520 -> 43:04.360] Well, that's another one,
[43:04.360 -> 43:05.200] because I can also say I also binge watched the series with the new season ahead. Well, that's another one, because I can also say
[43:05.200 -> 43:07.840] I also binge watched the series with the Mrs. Two.
[43:07.840 -> 43:10.760] So let's take a look at some of the news and stories
[43:10.760 -> 43:13.080] emerging from Drive to Survive.
[43:15.440 -> 43:17.320] Big dirty news.
[43:23.280 -> 43:24.960] So there were a lot of stories
[43:24.960 -> 43:26.840] that came out of Drive to2Survive this year.
[43:26.840 -> 43:32.520] One of the most fascinating ones was of course the old team principal battle, Toto Wolf versus
[43:32.520 -> 43:34.020] Christian Horner.
[43:34.020 -> 43:37.720] And then you throw in Mattia Bonazza in there too, just add a little bit of salt and pepper
[43:37.720 -> 43:39.800] and spice to the action.
[43:39.800 -> 43:43.220] The biggest story behind this, well, there were two.
[43:43.220 -> 43:46.760] You start with not only the porpoising, but the cost cap as well.
[43:46.760 -> 43:50.000] And that's where these three team principles pounced.
[43:50.000 -> 43:51.600] About the porpoising,
[43:51.600 -> 43:54.080] and that was the first one that came out in the series.
[43:54.080 -> 43:57.000] There was a nice little, I don't want to say nice,
[43:57.000 -> 43:59.400] but it was a very, very heated discussion,
[43:59.400 -> 44:03.040] a big team owners meeting where Toto Wolff
[44:03.040 -> 44:05.480] was sort of being, I don't want to say gaslighted, but
[44:05.480 -> 44:09.640] sort of ganged up on between Christian Horner and Mattia Bonotto.
[44:09.640 -> 44:12.800] Who do we start with with this, Matt?
[44:12.800 -> 44:17.280] You seem to agree with Horner and Bonotto on the paupusing side where Mercedes were
[44:17.280 -> 44:19.320] struggling with the bouncing.
[44:19.320 -> 44:22.680] Toto's basically saying, look, the rules are terrible.
[44:22.680 -> 44:24.000] They need to be changed.
[44:24.000 -> 44:28.060] Whereas the other two team bosses are going, well, mate, you've stuffed up with your car. You need to change
[44:28.060 -> 44:29.060] it.
[44:29.060 -> 44:33.440] Yeah. And I just want to say for our listeners, heated is the word we use when we can't use
[44:33.440 -> 44:39.480] stronger words because we are safe for work. I agreed with them in this very, very strict
[44:39.480 -> 44:45.700] context of the conversation because Wolf was saying, oh, what if our car crashes because blah blah blah,
[44:45.700 -> 44:47.000] and they basically made the point,
[44:47.000 -> 44:48.500] well, look, it's your car,
[44:48.500 -> 44:51.540] you should probably change it so that it doesn't crash.
[44:51.540 -> 44:55.340] But I feel like there was definitely
[44:55.340 -> 44:59.700] a lot of missing context to this discussion.
[44:59.700 -> 45:03.540] So while I agreed with Horner in the immediacy of that scene,
[45:03.540 -> 45:05.800] and I think he was absolutely correct,
[45:05.800 -> 45:08.760] there's a wider context to it that I think
[45:08.760 -> 45:11.560] gives a lot of weight to where Wolf was coming from.
[45:11.560 -> 45:12.480] Chris?
[45:12.480 -> 45:16.240] I live for moments like this.
[45:16.240 -> 45:20.200] These little fly-on-the-wall moments of the series
[45:20.200 -> 45:24.000] are what make Drive to Survive viewable for fans like us
[45:24.000 -> 45:26.840] who have been watching it for a very long time.
[45:26.840 -> 45:33.840] And the two incidents that we're talking about here, the porpoising and the cost cap, just
[45:33.840 -> 45:41.780] goes to show, for me anyway, that a team principal, no matter what their previous history, will
[45:41.780 -> 45:46.600] always play the victim when things are against them and tell everyone
[45:46.600 -> 45:50.920] it's their own problem when they've got it sorted.
[45:50.920 -> 45:57.040] They will happily play both sides of the coin and that's exactly what Christian Horner did
[45:57.040 -> 46:00.600] when he was saying, that's your problem with the paupers thing and suddenly playing the
[46:00.600 -> 46:02.920] victim when it came to the cost cap.
[46:02.920 -> 46:08.000] And that's exactly what I thought as well, was both sides in this situation, I felt were correct.
[46:08.040 -> 46:12.320] So you had Toto going, well, look, this is dangerous and the rules need to be changed.
[46:12.520 -> 46:16.400] But at the same time, every other team managed to avoid the paupers in dilemma.
[46:16.400 -> 46:22.080] And this is the situation, Scott, where the cars, one side of the cars were bouncing a lot.
[46:22.160 -> 46:28.960] You've had Lewis Hamilton and George Russell saying, hey, I've got back issues at Azerbaijan. And the other team is going, well, we're paupersing,
[46:28.960 -> 46:33.360] but we're quick and you guys suck. And you guys have won the last however many championships for
[46:33.360 -> 46:37.600] seven years. We're just going to see you suffer and basically throw salt on the wound.
[46:38.400 -> 46:49.320] Most definitely. And Mercedes are quite clearly the worst car for pa Paulson last year and Toto was gonna try everything that he could to gain as much of an advantage that he
[46:49.320 -> 46:53.980] could in regards to hopefully getting the regulations changed but what I
[46:53.980 -> 46:59.080] thought was brilliant was Christian Horner asking is this for the cameras do
[46:59.080 -> 47:03.880] we need to do this in front of them he knew exactly what he was saying and he
[47:03.880 -> 47:07.180] wanted every single moment of that captured on camera because
[47:07.180 -> 47:10.920] that was his, his moment to shine. And even Gunther got in
[47:11.180 -> 47:14.020] and ganged up upon on Toto, which I don't think we've seen
[47:14.040 -> 47:17.180] too much of in any season of Try to Survive.
[47:18.660 -> 47:23.020] Well, I think his is this for the cameras is exactly as you
[47:23.020 -> 47:26.720] said, what he wanted, because this is he excels in that
[47:26.720 -> 47:36.560] kind of immediate witty repartee put down contest i mean that's that's like his wheelhouse but for
[47:36.560 -> 47:43.120] context i mean i know you say that mercedes the other teams had not soft-purposing at all if you
[47:43.120 -> 47:45.480] looked at the ferraris particularly in the
[47:45.480 -> 47:52.400] braking zone it was terrifying even though they seem to be able to manage it the point the wolf's
[47:52.400 -> 47:59.400] larger point which I do believe was absolutely correct was that like look we need to protect
[47:59.400 -> 48:09.440] the drivers from these kinds of forces and it's long been a thing in Formula one I mean we can go all the way back to the active suspension on on the Williams on
[48:09.660 -> 48:14.560] The Lotus when they put active suspension on they were concerned with the drivers ability to drive
[48:15.040 -> 48:18.920] Williams like oh the drivers are paid to take this punishment
[48:18.920 -> 48:20.920] All we care about is making cargo fast
[48:20.920 -> 48:30.080] And I think that's the point wolf was making like we need to put limits in to protect the drivers, because if we don't, then they will get in anything
[48:30.080 -> 48:31.640] and try and drive it fast.
[48:31.640 -> 48:36.200] Chris, obviously active suspension was a little bit before our time in Formula One. We're
[48:36.200 -> 48:41.320] still avid fans, so we kind of know all about that. That was in the early 90s, but it is
[48:41.320 -> 48:49.840] a very similar situation in this one. The thing I found fascinating was how heated these sort of team principle,
[48:49.840 -> 48:55.000] what do you call them, meetings go on with the FIA and how intriguing it was to step in.
[48:55.000 -> 48:58.760] And we've had this in the past where they'll put a camera in a driver's briefing meeting
[48:58.760 -> 49:02.200] and it's one of the most fascinating two, three minutes out there on YouTube.
[49:02.200 -> 49:05.080] Yeah, they did it on their fun channel for a while,
[49:05.080 -> 49:07.360] didn't they, which I thought was fantastic.
[49:07.360 -> 49:10.040] And yeah, more peeks behind the curtain like that.
[49:10.040 -> 49:14.120] But talking about is Toto playing up to the cameras
[49:14.120 -> 49:15.520] or Christian playing up to the cameras
[49:15.520 -> 49:19.080] by asking Toto if he's playing up to the cameras.
[49:19.080 -> 49:21.180] Of course, the irony is they're both playing up
[49:21.180 -> 49:22.020] to the cameras.
[49:22.020 -> 49:24.160] They're both taking advantage of this opportunity
[49:24.160 -> 49:29.280] that they know this is gonna get broadcast to millions of people. So they're both playing
[49:29.280 -> 49:34.800] on that role, but coming from very different sides, obviously.
[49:34.800 -> 49:41.440] I thought what was quite intriguing about that meeting as well is that Stefano Domenicali,
[49:41.440 -> 49:47.360] and I can't remember who was sitting to his right, but he was like
[49:47.360 -> 49:55.200] a head teacher. He scolded Gunther Steiner for talking and to basically be quiet, and
[49:55.200 -> 50:00.720] they all did. And it was very interesting to see the team principals in that position
[50:00.720 -> 50:05.920] because we don't. And then of course the following conversation was like a bunch of kids
[50:05.920 -> 50:11.920] having a disagreement in secondary school. But yeah, Toto obviously got very irate and very
[50:11.920 -> 50:18.560] defensive, even threatening to go after team principals if of course there was going to be
[50:18.560 -> 50:29.120] a crash due to Paul Pussing trying every ammunition that he had. Well, of course, contextually to this conversation,
[50:29.120 -> 50:32.400] porpoising was still an issue on a number of cars.
[50:32.400 -> 50:36.440] It wasn't just the Mercedes at this point,
[50:36.440 -> 50:40.480] but it didn't seem to be a major issue
[50:40.480 -> 50:42.160] on a lot of the other cars.
[50:42.160 -> 50:44.240] No one else was complaining about back problems
[50:44.240 -> 50:47.360] or it being a safety concern.
[50:47.360 -> 50:50.800] And maybe that is an extreme angle that Mercedes took
[50:50.800 -> 50:53.360] to try and get the regs changed
[50:53.360 -> 50:57.080] and to play in their favor a little bit.
[50:57.080 -> 50:59.440] And Matt, along with that too, I mean, yeah,
[50:59.440 -> 51:01.040] Mercedes did suffer the worst
[51:01.040 -> 51:02.520] and they seem to be the most public
[51:02.520 -> 51:03.880] about their issues with the car.
[51:03.880 -> 51:08.560] And that's why Toto's come in and gone, hey, look, we need to stick up for ourselves and
[51:08.560 -> 51:10.600] become competitive again.
[51:10.600 -> 51:15.000] Do you think it was true where Toto's gone, this is a safety issue, we need to change
[51:15.000 -> 51:16.000] it?
[51:16.000 -> 51:19.500] Or do you think he's sort of trying to convince people to change the rules to make Mercedes
[51:19.500 -> 51:20.500] quick again?
[51:20.500 -> 51:22.200] That's another good context there.
[51:22.200 -> 51:25.160] I think the answer to your question is yes.
[51:25.160 -> 51:27.800] So is there a legitimate safety concern?
[51:27.800 -> 51:33.480] Well, I would say that I think that there is and that we know that there is not because
[51:33.480 -> 51:39.040] any particular rule was changed, but because the FIA have developed a sensor to measure
[51:39.040 -> 51:42.960] this angular momentum and set a limit for drivers.
[51:42.960 -> 51:46.800] And so the parallel I want to draw is to say the NFL
[51:46.840 -> 51:50.520] National Football League over here in America where after
[51:51.040 -> 51:57.180] Years of playing football they're finding these neurological problems that they think are caused by these impacts
[51:57.280 -> 52:01.940] These impacts can be essentially rated as a certain amount of G
[52:02.440 -> 52:05.760] Against your head. So if you're a driver bouncing up and
[52:05.760 -> 52:10.240] down you have a lot of you're bouncing your brain up and down. So yeah there's
[52:10.240 -> 52:14.340] a potential that there's a long-term health impact on drivers here and it's
[52:14.340 -> 52:19.480] worthy of being studied and it's worthy of being limited in the interest of
[52:19.480 -> 52:28.880] protecting driver safety. That said it's also very convenient for Mercedes that any fix to this problem,
[52:28.880 -> 52:33.920] or any limit to this problem, is probably going to help them more relative to their
[52:34.720 -> 52:41.360] rivals than it will help their rivals themselves. And on that front, it came to the cost cap
[52:41.360 -> 52:51.200] dilemma where you switch the sides of who's playing victim now. Mercedes, no longer the victims in this one, were the victims Red Bull or were they the
[52:51.200 -> 52:57.680] perpetrators? That's the next question there. The cost cap dilemma we had was we got a lot of
[52:57.680 -> 53:06.440] insight into how public a lot of the teams were. This is back in the real world before Drive to Survive, you had Zach Brown's letter,
[53:06.440 -> 53:10.840] you had Toto Wolf being unashamedly accusing Red Bull
[53:10.840 -> 53:13.440] of doing this and doing that over the budget
[53:13.440 -> 53:15.120] to try and get themselves a championship.
[53:15.120 -> 53:17.600] But who wants to go with this one?
[53:17.600 -> 53:18.960] Chris, I'll go with you first.
[53:18.960 -> 53:21.600] So this is a situation where Red Bull
[53:21.600 -> 53:23.720] have exceeded the cost cap by what was it,
[53:23.720 -> 53:25.280] like 400,000 or a few million. And at the the cost cap by, what was it, like 400,000
[53:25.280 -> 53:26.280] or a few million?
[53:26.280 -> 53:31.120] And at the end of the day, Christian Horner, this time, is playing the victim, going, hey,
[53:31.120 -> 53:33.360] look, it's only a small amount of money.
[53:33.360 -> 53:35.000] It's not going to make that big of a difference.
[53:35.000 -> 53:40.600] Well, that was a very intriguing insight to see how passionate he was about making himself
[53:40.600 -> 53:41.880] a victim in this one.
[53:41.880 -> 53:47.000] Yeah, because they doubled down on the idea that they'd done absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever,
[53:47.000 -> 53:51.000] even though it was very much proven that they had.
[53:51.000 -> 54:00.000] And it astounded me that Christian Horner came across that he was surprised that
[54:00.000 -> 54:07.000] they got a negative reaction about that, and that they were not a popular team for breaking the cost cap.
[54:07.000 -> 54:12.000] As if we're going to turn around and say, oh, it's okay, Red Bull, what's 400 grand between friends?
[54:12.000 -> 54:14.000] You go along, it will be absolutely fine.
[54:14.000 -> 54:25.280] And for him to then hide as well behind the language that he was using, which was very, very carefully chosen.
[54:25.280 -> 54:29.400] We did not cheat, i.e. because we didn't do it deliberately.
[54:29.400 -> 54:30.920] We didn't do it deliberately.
[54:30.920 -> 54:32.920] Does not matter.
[54:32.920 -> 54:40.280] And then to also play the mental health card as well, as a, as a, oh stop bullying us,
[54:40.280 -> 54:46.000] you're being really mean, like, oh my God, I thought the whole thing was just a bit pathetic.
[54:47.000 -> 54:49.000] And I think that's also been
[54:49.000 -> 54:53.000] exampled by, we said we've watched it with our partners
[54:53.000 -> 54:55.000] and my girlfriend was sitting there going,
[54:55.000 -> 54:57.000] why is he playing the victim when
[54:57.000 -> 54:59.000] he's broken the rules and he's the
[54:59.000 -> 55:01.000] only team to have broken the rules?
[55:01.000 -> 55:07.240] And I was just sitting there shaking my head because this is exactly the same thing I've said
[55:07.240 -> 55:09.880] throughout the season when this was all announced,
[55:09.880 -> 55:12.640] but it was very intriguing to see how much
[55:12.640 -> 55:16.580] of the victim he was still playing behind closed doors.
[55:16.580 -> 55:21.000] He really didn't see that he had done something wrong.
[55:21.000 -> 55:23.360] And you could see how much he was sweating,
[55:23.360 -> 55:26.840] even approaching Matia Bonotto on the Singapore Grand Prix grid. Of how much he was sweating, even approaching Matthias Bonotto on the Singapore
[55:26.840 -> 55:31.080] Grand Prix grid. Of course, this was before I think it was officially announced they'd
[55:31.080 -> 55:40.760] breached the cost cap. But he was clearly very paranoid and very upset with these rumours.
[55:40.760 -> 55:45.640] But he must have known that they were very close to the cost cap limit.
[55:46.640 -> 55:50.120] Yeah, I actually quite enjoyed that as well when you went to the grid and Matija said,
[55:50.120 -> 55:53.240] well, look, I didn't mention your team specifically.
[55:53.240 -> 55:54.200] I said any team.
[55:54.200 -> 55:57.520] So if you want to play the victim there, maybe you're guilty.
[55:57.520 -> 56:01.960] And that was a very, very savage sort of mental game that Matija Bnotto was playing.
[56:01.960 -> 56:06.080] And Matt, obviously, you know, mental health and its situation, of course, Horne has said,
[56:06.080 -> 56:08.440] look, like this is this has affected us and everything.
[56:08.600 -> 56:11.200] We still have to take him seriously in that context, too.
[56:11.880 -> 56:17.520] Yeah, no, I mean, mental health is absolutely no joke, especially in the post-COVID era.
[56:17.520 -> 56:27.340] However, using mental health as a shield against your wrongdoing is also like just like not really on to
[56:27.340 -> 56:31.700] borrow a British phrase. My wife picked up on his language straight away. She was
[56:31.700 -> 56:37.500] like, oh. And I use her because it was fun to watch with someone who
[56:37.500 -> 56:47.000] wasn't as devoted to the utter minutiae of Formula One as I am. And she absolutely despised him playing victim.
[56:47.000 -> 56:53.000] And I agree, the funny thing to me is not that they did this,
[56:53.000 -> 56:55.000] because I think, frankly, Aston Martin did it,
[56:55.000 -> 56:57.000] Williams messed it up too.
[56:57.000 -> 57:02.000] They were not the only ones to dance around the edges
[57:02.000 -> 57:03.000] of this regulation.
[57:03.000 -> 57:05.520] But the simple fact that, and I think it was the
[57:05.520 -> 57:10.480] Atmar quote said, like, yeah, look, if we're half a millimeter off in the technical regulations,
[57:10.480 -> 57:15.120] our car gets disqualified. Aston Martin in Hungary two years ago, they didn't have quite enough fuel,
[57:15.920 -> 57:20.160] disqualified. They finished in second place. So if you spend too much money,
[57:20.160 -> 57:27.440] whether intentionally or not, there is a penalty that should follow. It's just very basic. But the
[57:27.440 -> 57:35.640] fact that they played the victim just, it was like the Streisand effect. It just poured immense
[57:35.640 -> 57:40.960] amounts of fuel onto that fire, where if they stood up and said, look, you know what, it's
[57:40.960 -> 57:45.280] possible we made a mistake here. We didn't intend to do this. We're going to talk to the FIA.
[57:45.280 -> 57:46.880] We're going to look at what happened.
[57:46.880 -> 57:49.760] We're going to make sure this never happens again.
[57:49.760 -> 57:52.200] Everybody would have been like, well, whatever.
[57:52.200 -> 57:56.640] And of course, you know, the TV sort of producers will pick a certain angle to go with on all
[57:56.640 -> 57:57.640] this.
[57:57.640 -> 58:02.040] So that's also sort of doesn't help Horner's context in this kind of sense and kind of
[58:02.040 -> 58:05.800] his sort of perception on this whole dilemma and how we perceive
[58:05.800 -> 58:06.800] him.
[58:06.800 -> 58:11.640] But the thing I've noticed the most coming out of Drive to Survive, Scott, is there's
[58:11.640 -> 58:14.200] a couple of people in F1 who have big obsessions.
[58:14.200 -> 58:16.000] Number one has got to be Nico Rosberg.
[58:16.000 -> 58:19.980] If you have a big bingo card of five Lewis Hamilton's in a row, you would cross that
[58:19.980 -> 58:22.920] off in the first five conversations you have with him.
[58:22.920 -> 58:25.080] Second most I've noticed is Christian Horner.
[58:25.080 -> 58:30.280] He seems to go after Mercedes Scott almost every single time he's on the show.
[58:30.400 -> 58:33.480] And he seems to have this kind of obsession to attack them in the media.
[58:33.480 -> 58:35.000] And and Max is the same.
[58:35.000 -> 58:38.040] And it brings memories of that 2021 battle back in the past
[58:38.040 -> 58:41.080] where they were doing the same and Mercedes were kind of trying to shrug it off.
[58:41.840 -> 58:46.000] Yeah, there was a there was a scene that I think kind of got glossed over. It was
[58:46.000 -> 58:52.960] only a few seconds where Christian Horner was talking to Max in the pit box and he went over
[58:53.600 -> 58:59.280] and discussed with Max about these rumours. This was at the Singapore Grand Prix,
[58:59.840 -> 59:05.960] about these rumours that they'd supposedly broken the cost cap and was blaming Mercedes
[59:05.960 -> 59:07.760] and Toto Wolf for it.
[59:07.760 -> 59:15.220] Now it's like he was seeking validation from Max and Max said, Oh, it's just them trying
[59:15.220 -> 59:18.280] to discredit us for last year, doing whatever they can.
[59:18.280 -> 59:22.840] But yeah, pretty much every opportunity he likes to mention that they dominated the sport
[59:22.840 -> 59:25.520] for seven odd years, eight years.
[59:25.520 -> 59:33.080] And to be honest, if I was Toto Wolf, I'd be saying thank you to Christian Horner, because you're just going to keep reminding everyone how good we were for eight years.
[59:34.440 -> 59:41.080] Well, on that front as well, you can put yourself in Red Bull's shoes and kind of understand where they're coming from on all this.
[59:41.080 -> 59:42.800] You go, hey, look, we've won a championship.
[59:42.800 -> 59:43.880] Don't take it away from us.
[59:43.880 -> 59:49.920] What's 400 grand going to do in this situation? And to be honest, they can sort of be correct as
[59:49.920 -> 59:55.200] well, if you think about it. It's not that big of a difference. The fascination I found from the whole
[59:56.640 -> 01:00:02.320] what came out of Drive to Survive was, and who I really respect a lot after this is Zach Brown.
[01:00:02.320 -> 01:00:08.080] And with him talking about the letter he sent to the FIA, I think it was to the FIA,
[01:00:08.080 -> 01:00:12.880] or was it to the teams, or it was an official letter of sort of saying, hey, look, once you
[01:00:12.880 -> 01:00:15.040] cross the line, this is against the rules.
[01:00:15.040 -> 01:00:20.320] And Scott, on that one, Zac Brown was very well spoken and explained, hey, look, this isn't
[01:00:20.320 -> 01:00:23.160] personal. I don't hate Christian.
[01:00:23.360 -> 01:00:27.240] I don't hate Red Bull. I don't want to do
[01:00:27.240 -> 01:00:31.280] anything like that. But also, we need to stick up for ourselves and the rules because the
[01:00:31.280 -> 01:00:35.480] cost cap needs to be adhered to. This is for the success of the future of the sport.
[01:00:35.480 -> 01:00:40.720] Yeah, I think the exact words he used, he was essential for the integrity of the sport.
[01:00:40.720 -> 01:00:49.600] And I think most like-minded fans are of that same mind as well. And he made a quote about Christian Horner, which I think summed him up quite aptly.
[01:00:49.600 -> 01:00:52.600] He can dish it out, but he can't take it.
[01:00:52.600 -> 01:00:58.400] And that's kind of what I took from this particular Cost Cap episode.
[01:00:58.400 -> 01:01:00.400] Anyone? Anyone on that, Matt?
[01:01:00.400 -> 01:01:03.600] Well, yeah, I would agree with that.
[01:01:03.600 -> 01:01:08.000] The thing that fascinates me most is in the arguing
[01:01:08.000 -> 01:01:13.360] for a little or no penalty is how much, and again, I'm going to reference watching with my wife.
[01:01:14.400 -> 01:01:19.840] She was, you know, because we had our conversations about what a correct penalty would be. The FIA
[01:01:19.840 -> 01:01:24.480] made their decision. My wife was like, they shouldn't have a constructors championship.
[01:01:24.480 -> 01:01:27.760] They spent too much money. There's no way they should be eligible for that if they spent
[01:01:27.760 -> 01:01:29.580] too much money, period, end of.
[01:01:29.580 -> 01:01:35.080] And I was, well, kind of surprised, actually, that that was her take, and I'm just curious
[01:01:35.080 -> 01:01:40.280] where everybody else came down on that after seeing him in this context.
[01:01:40.280 -> 01:01:50.500] Well, it wasn't the only sense of drama in the paddock, of course. Let's go down the grid a little bit and let's speak about Alpine, because they had a couple
[01:01:50.500 -> 01:01:56.160] of drivers set in stone, Fernando Alonso, Esteban Ocon, they had El Plan or whatever
[01:01:56.160 -> 01:02:00.740] it was, I can't even remember what it was called now, it's been so long ago, for Fernando
[01:02:00.740 -> 01:02:05.120] Alonso to win a world championship in that car. And then this whole domino effect
[01:02:05.120 -> 01:02:11.280] happened. Sebastian Vettel retires, Alonso takes his seat at Aston Martin, and then it leads to
[01:02:11.280 -> 01:02:16.880] Oscar Piastri not signing with Alpine and moving to McLaren. The first thing I took out of this,
[01:02:17.520 -> 01:02:23.520] Chris, was Vettel's retired, and of course, Alonso stepped into his Aston Martin seat.
[01:02:23.520 -> 01:02:29.000] We got some intriguing looks into the conversations surrounding that and how Fernando Alonso said,
[01:02:29.000 -> 01:02:32.000] I think it was at Hungary, said, hey, look, I'm happy to talk.
[01:02:32.000 -> 01:02:33.600] I need this contract soon.
[01:02:33.600 -> 01:02:39.200] Next thing you know, Laurence Stroll has offered up what seemed like the big bucks is what I took from that conversation.
[01:02:39.200 -> 01:02:40.600] Yeah, yeah, 100%.
[01:02:40.600 -> 01:02:48.000] And what that episode did for me was reaffirm my previous belief that Alpine
[01:02:48.000 -> 01:02:53.760] really dropped the ball with the whole Alonso Piastri situation.
[01:02:53.760 -> 01:03:00.060] And Otmar can keep going on about loyalty when it comes to Oscar Piastri, but the truth
[01:03:00.060 -> 01:03:04.520] behind it was he was going to re-sign Fernando before he left.
[01:03:04.520 -> 01:03:07.440] So what else was Oscar going to do?
[01:03:08.560 -> 01:03:12.720] And for me, yeah, it was all of Alpine's own doing.
[01:03:13.520 -> 01:03:17.040] And that's a very good point as well, actually, when you think about it that way, is that, yeah,
[01:03:17.040 -> 01:03:22.240] look, Alpine were looking to keep Alonso. They were going to keep Ocon. He signed what was,
[01:03:22.240 -> 01:03:25.920] I think it's like a 15-year. They signed him on a very long deal.
[01:03:25.920 -> 01:03:26.920] 72.
[01:03:26.920 -> 01:03:30.720] 72. Yeah. It was a very, very long deal for Espen Ocon. But then, so then what happens
[01:03:30.720 -> 01:03:36.480] to Oscar, Matt? Where does he go? And so I, in the context of that and seeing that conversation
[01:03:36.480 -> 01:03:41.480] of them trying to re-sign Alonso, I all of a sudden don't feel like Oscar did anything
[01:03:41.480 -> 01:03:42.960] wrong in this situation.
[01:03:42.960 -> 01:03:49.360] Well, you ask the rather pertinent question, what happens to Piastri if Alonso is signed?
[01:03:49.360 -> 01:03:56.640] And the answer is, he goes to Williams to replace George Russell, who's now at, oh, Mercedes.
[01:03:57.440 -> 01:04:02.800] Here's what it is. Either the timing of it, because the Alonso deal wasn't done,
[01:04:02.800 -> 01:04:06.600] and Alpine wanted Piastri for Alpine, if Alonso deal wasn't done and Alpine wanted piastri for Alpine
[01:04:06.600 -> 01:04:12.440] if Alonzo was going to bolt on them, which given his history was not an impossibility.
[01:04:12.440 -> 01:04:17.560] I think he got impatient, looked at how McLaren was doing and said, oh, that looks like a
[01:04:17.560 -> 01:04:21.560] great place to go drive a car.
[01:04:21.560 -> 01:04:25.000] And his lawyers looked at his lack of a contract and said,
[01:04:25.000 -> 01:04:26.240] Oh, geez, you know what?
[01:04:26.240 -> 01:04:29.280] We could actually make that happen if you really want it.
[01:04:29.280 -> 01:04:32.240] And I think that was probably the start of it.
[01:04:32.240 -> 01:04:34.720] But yeah, he would have gone to Williams, done a season or
[01:04:34.720 -> 01:04:36.840] two, and wound up at Alpine, had Alonzo stayed.
[01:04:36.840 -> 01:04:40.240] That really impressed me, though, about Otmar Zaffner.
[01:04:40.240 -> 01:04:43.920] Look, this new team boss has come from the Force India days,
[01:04:43.920 -> 01:04:45.200] into the racing points,
[01:04:45.200 -> 01:04:50.720] into the Aston Martin, has made the most out of an efficient budget. He's had this whole
[01:04:50.720 -> 01:04:55.600] sort of reputation built around him where, look, he can take a midfield team and score a lot of
[01:04:55.600 -> 01:05:00.640] points and be up there competing for, you know, the high end of the points, not potentially wins
[01:05:00.640 -> 01:05:05.960] or podiums, but can do a lot with a small budget, he goes over to Aston Martin and in this
[01:05:05.960 -> 01:05:10.800] sense he's sort of left the team and he's brought in context to say, hey look, this new owner,
[01:05:10.800 -> 01:05:16.600] Lawrence Stroll, he's not sort of easy to work with, it's a lot of pressure and the sort of
[01:05:16.600 -> 01:05:23.240] insights they gave behind that, Chris, was sort of, hey look, Lawrence Stroll is not as easy going
[01:05:23.240 -> 01:05:25.680] as an owner that I wanted to work with.
[01:05:26.560 -> 01:05:31.360] Yeah, and I think that provides a lot of good context for Fernando's move and what he
[01:05:31.920 -> 01:05:37.840] might have to deal with in his, with his new team this year. But it goes back to what we
[01:05:37.840 -> 01:05:42.320] were saying earlier, wasn't it, about playing the victim. Otmar was playing the victim because his
[01:05:42.320 -> 01:05:48.400] driver decided to go somewhere else because they weren't giving him a race seat. Yes, there was potentially the option for him to
[01:05:48.400 -> 01:05:55.240] go to Williams if there was no seat at Alpine, but was there any guarantee that that was
[01:05:55.240 -> 01:06:00.760] going to happen? Because we know that Williams had a few options on the board to partner
[01:06:00.760 -> 01:06:08.520] Albon after getting rid of Latifi. So So I don't think that Oscar did anything wrong.
[01:06:08.520 -> 01:06:14.720] I didn't at the time, and I still don't think that, having heard a bit more from
[01:06:14.960 -> 01:06:15.960] Artmar's perspective.
[01:06:16.600 -> 01:06:21.440] And actually on that, Scott, is the fact that Piastri wasn't painted well in the media after
[01:06:21.440 -> 01:06:22.360] all this drama.
[01:06:22.360 -> 01:06:26.200] You know, it's somebody who's coming into the sport, trying to make a name for yourself,
[01:06:26.200 -> 01:06:29.200] and now off track is sort of costing your reputation a lot.
[01:06:29.200 -> 01:06:30.040] But in this sense,
[01:06:30.040 -> 01:06:32.920] I feel like it's almost a little bit repaired.
[01:06:32.920 -> 01:06:36.960] Yeah, and I think what the Netflix show didn't show
[01:06:36.960 -> 01:06:39.600] is the nuances in the contracts.
[01:06:39.600 -> 01:06:43.600] Most of us who listen to this podcast
[01:06:43.600 -> 01:06:47.440] probably know the details that happened
[01:06:47.440 -> 01:06:53.360] with Alpine and Piastri and that there was complications and misunderstandings with
[01:06:53.360 -> 01:06:59.920] contracts. Netflix didn't display that. So I think that's why maybe it might have looked like that he
[01:06:59.920 -> 01:07:05.360] come off as the baddie, but most of all, it just looked like overall misunderstanding
[01:07:05.360 -> 01:07:11.720] from Otmar and McLaren took advantage of that. Clearly, Mark Webber, although he was only
[01:07:11.720 -> 01:07:16.760] in it for a short period, was labelled as Piastri's manager, clearly was doing work
[01:07:16.760 -> 01:07:22.280] in the background to do what was best for his driver after they clearly was going to
[01:07:22.280 -> 01:07:26.100] go for the Fernando Alonso route. But what was brilliant, I think,
[01:07:26.100 -> 01:07:27.860] is there was once again,
[01:07:27.860 -> 01:07:29.940] just another little snippet that I picked up
[01:07:29.940 -> 01:07:34.940] was that Fernando Alonso was walking down the pit lane.
[01:07:35.040 -> 01:07:37.460] And they went, what have you started
[01:07:37.460 -> 01:07:38.860] in regards to silly season?
[01:07:38.860 -> 01:07:41.620] And he went, not me, Sebastian Vettel.
[01:07:41.620 -> 01:07:42.900] Well, that's actually true, Matt.
[01:07:42.900 -> 01:07:44.180] If you think about it, like I said,
[01:07:44.180 -> 01:07:46.720] Vettel started the domino effect with all this, with
[01:07:46.720 -> 01:07:50.960] his retirement, and he caused a whole drama, and one of the best silly seasons I think
[01:07:50.960 -> 01:07:52.880] we witnessed in Formula One for quite some time.
[01:07:52.880 -> 01:07:54.600] Oh yeah, it was delightful.
[01:07:54.600 -> 01:07:56.920] It gave us so, so much to argue about.
[01:07:56.920 -> 01:08:01.240] I do want to speak up briefly in defense of Ahtmar there.
[01:08:01.240 -> 01:08:06.160] I mean, he was at Aston Martin until the start of this season. I'm fairly
[01:08:06.160 -> 01:08:11.200] sure maybe you could ding him for not looking over the legal contracts that were supposed
[01:08:11.200 -> 01:08:16.500] to have been signed. But I'm going to point at like whatever lawyers were actually in
[01:08:16.500 -> 01:08:26.640] charge of that as being as being a major provider of all this drama. That said, they did spend an awful lot on Piastri in the
[01:08:26.640 -> 01:08:31.680] meantime, letting him drive old Formula One cars around circuits and giving him coaching
[01:08:31.680 -> 01:08:37.120] and stuff like that. So I think their point that they invested a lot in him, and it's not
[01:08:38.160 -> 01:08:42.000] a massive step to say, look, if we're going to give you a seat at Williams,
[01:08:42.800 -> 01:08:45.920] just trust us. Well, once you've spent four million dollars on me,
[01:08:45.920 -> 01:08:48.440] I might be slightly more inclined to trust you.
[01:08:48.440 -> 01:08:51.960] Although, to be fair, Formula One, it is a tank of piranhas.
[01:08:52.680 -> 01:08:55.960] Not only that, but I think, yeah, well, that's a good way to put it, actually.
[01:08:56.160 -> 01:09:00.440] Otmar Zafnar is a very, like I said, he's an efficient team principal,
[01:09:00.440 -> 01:09:01.520] an efficient team owner.
[01:09:01.520 -> 01:09:06.540] So I was actually surprised he wanted to bring Fernando Alonso back for another
[01:09:06.540 -> 01:09:09.520] year as good of a talent as Fernando is.
[01:09:09.760 -> 01:09:15.160] Chris, it's never been sort of the guy that Otmar, I feel like would go for.
[01:09:15.160 -> 01:09:18.280] And I almost feel like now with the driver lineup he's got this year with
[01:09:18.280 -> 01:09:21.360] Gasly and Ocon, it's almost better for the team and better for what
[01:09:21.360 -> 01:09:22.560] Otmar wants out of a team.
[01:09:23.320 -> 01:09:29.740] Maybe, maybe, but if Otmar wanted return on investment in Piastri, he should
[01:09:29.740 -> 01:09:35.580] have given him a seat sooner because him already spending a year on the sidelines
[01:09:35.940 -> 01:09:40.620] after winning Formula Renault, Formula 3 and Formula 2 titles in back to back
[01:09:40.700 -> 01:09:43.880] years is an atrocity.
[01:09:44.220 -> 01:09:46.120] He should have been in Formula One straight away.
[01:09:46.320 -> 01:09:52.240] The idea that he was then going to get his entry level seat after that as well is
[01:09:52.240 -> 01:09:54.200] just, it's a bit of a slap in the face, really.
[01:09:55.160 -> 01:09:58.700] And people accuse Drive to Survive of dramatizing things.
[01:09:58.760 -> 01:10:00.320] Oh my goodness.
[01:10:00.600 -> 01:10:03.600] He got loads of experience working with Alpine.
[01:10:03.600 -> 01:10:06.000] He got drives in Formula One cars.
[01:10:06.000 -> 01:10:11.000] He got coaching. It's like, yeah, it's nice when all the cards line up and your little
[01:10:11.000 -> 01:10:15.960] champion can go and join Formula One immediately, but he would hardly be the first driver who
[01:10:15.960 -> 01:10:22.160] had to sit out one or if you're Nick DeVries, multiple seasons before you get your drive.
[01:10:22.160 -> 01:10:28.600] And there is, there is a difference between Nick DeVries and Oscar Piastri, I am telling you.
[01:10:28.600 -> 01:10:33.160] DeVries was not Formula One ready when he won the F2 title.
[01:10:33.160 -> 01:10:38.000] No one has had a junior career like Oscar Piastri has had.
[01:10:38.000 -> 01:10:42.840] You don't just keep him on the sidelines for a year, and you certainly can't compare
[01:10:42.840 -> 01:10:45.040] him to the other drivers that have had to sit on the sidelines for a year and you certainly can't compare him to the other drivers that have had to
[01:10:45.040 -> 01:10:47.040] sit on the sidelines for a year.
[01:10:47.040 -> 01:10:52.220] No one, so you don't think Lewis Hamilton or Max Verstappen's had a great junior career
[01:10:52.220 -> 01:10:53.220] like Oscar Piestre has?
[01:10:53.220 -> 01:10:58.380] I'm not saying no one had a great junior career but no one has done what he did winning back
[01:10:58.380 -> 01:11:01.220] to back to back to back titles like he did.
[01:11:01.220 -> 01:11:02.680] That's true, that is very true.
[01:11:02.680 -> 01:11:05.280] Even I think Lewis Hamilton took two years of F3 to win
[01:11:05.280 -> 01:11:10.880] that title, then won GP2's first year, which I always say, and my fundamental rule, Scott, is
[01:11:10.880 -> 01:11:15.680] if you can win GP2, or sorry, Formula 2 now, which it's called, if you can win that in your
[01:11:15.680 -> 01:11:21.040] first season, I think you're a generational talent. And everyone's proved that, except Nico Hulkenberg.
[01:11:22.400 -> 01:11:26.800] Yeah, that's so true. Who knows, maybe he'll get his first podium this year.
[01:11:26.800 -> 01:11:28.640] But speaking of drama,
[01:11:28.640 -> 01:11:33.380] and how truthful of a scenario this is,
[01:11:33.380 -> 01:11:38.000] who knows, but we was discussing the conversations
[01:11:38.000 -> 01:11:41.480] that Otmar and Zac Brown had,
[01:11:41.480 -> 01:11:47.920] which is why I think I gained a lot of respect for Otmar. I have
[01:11:47.920 -> 01:11:54.800] always not really thought too much of him, to be honest, but how set up that conversation
[01:11:54.800 -> 01:12:00.680] was, I think Netflix did really well in capturing a load of candid conversations this season.
[01:12:00.680 -> 01:12:05.520] And yeah, there was a couple of conversations captured between them regarding the piastri
[01:12:05.520 -> 01:12:15.360] scenario, and vice versa going into each other's homes, mobile homes, which I suppose takes
[01:12:15.360 -> 01:12:21.040] a little bit of confidence to say the least, but I thought that was very intriguing.
[01:12:21.040 -> 01:12:25.760] How put on it was, who knows, but it was, yeah but it was intriguing to see both of them go at it
[01:12:25.760 -> 01:12:29.540] over the scenario and Max, not Max, sorry,
[01:12:32.180 -> 01:12:36.300] Zach Brown, him actually firing back at Otmar
[01:12:36.300 -> 01:12:37.820] in regards to the fact of,
[01:12:37.820 -> 01:12:40.500] well, this will be a PR disaster for you
[01:12:40.500 -> 01:12:43.320] and don't try to drag us into this.
[01:12:43.320 -> 01:12:49.520] It was intriguing. The team principle fights were certainly very intriguing in Drive to Survive. One thing I was
[01:12:49.520 -> 01:12:56.400] very fascinated by was Zac Brown saying, hey, a driver swap is fair with Ricardo and Piastri.
[01:12:56.400 -> 01:13:00.640] That's not fair at all. I don't know what he was talking about in that sense. Was it Ricardo and
[01:13:00.640 -> 01:13:05.200] Piastri, I think? Was it there, Matt? Yes, it was. Those two.
[01:13:05.200 -> 01:13:06.200] That is not fair at all.
[01:13:06.200 -> 01:13:07.200] Come on, Zach.
[01:13:07.200 -> 01:13:08.200] Do you really think that that was a good thing?
[01:13:08.200 -> 01:13:11.640] Piastri's had one of the best junior careers of all time, which is what Chris said.
[01:13:11.640 -> 01:13:12.880] No, I'm just kidding, Chris.
[01:13:12.880 -> 01:13:14.200] It's all good.
[01:13:14.200 -> 01:13:21.240] One of the next big topics that we're going to go to is the Mick Schumacher-Haas relationship.
[01:13:21.240 -> 01:13:26.480] This was, I don't want to say tumultuous, but just not a good fit for either of
[01:13:26.480 -> 01:13:32.720] the groups. You look at Haas number one, and they, in this sort of context, need a reliable driver,
[01:13:32.720 -> 01:13:37.280] an experienced driver who can score points. They're a team who don't have much of a budget.
[01:13:37.280 -> 01:13:43.360] Every single crash, every single mistake costs them money. You've got a frugal team boss of
[01:13:43.360 -> 01:13:45.000] Gunther Steiner. And maybe frugal
[01:13:45.000 -> 01:13:49.160] is a bad way to put him because he has to work with the money that he's given and he
[01:13:49.160 -> 01:13:52.400] doesn't have all the money in the world. And so he has to be like, hey, we need to save
[01:13:52.400 -> 01:13:57.360] as much money as possible. And then you have an inexperienced sort of young, no longer
[01:13:57.360 -> 01:14:01.640] a rookie, but a young driver and Mick Schumacher, who's been crashing a lot, who's been making
[01:14:01.640 -> 01:14:05.100] mistakes and who's been sort of costing the team millions
[01:14:05.100 -> 01:14:06.100] of dollars.
[01:14:06.100 -> 01:14:08.840] His crash at Monaco, he's had crashes at other circuits too.
[01:14:08.840 -> 01:14:10.480] Who wants to go on this first?
[01:14:10.480 -> 01:14:16.040] Matt, Mick Schumacher and Haas, did we find out that this was a good fit for them after
[01:14:16.040 -> 01:14:17.040] Draft2Survive?
[01:14:17.040 -> 01:14:18.840] Or is this a terrible fit for both people?
[01:14:18.840 -> 01:14:20.740] Yeah, so let's be clear.
[01:14:20.740 -> 01:14:31.160] This was always the wrong shoe on the wrong foot for Haas. Their entire stated method of working was to harvest veteran drivers because, as we
[01:14:31.160 -> 01:14:39.560] have seen, experience is worth a lot more now than natural raw talent in this particular
[01:14:39.560 -> 01:14:42.680] regulation set we find ourselves in.
[01:14:42.680 -> 01:14:47.020] So their way of working was to get cheap veteran drivers
[01:14:47.020 -> 01:14:50.400] who might otherwise have been kicked out of the sport and take advantage of them
[01:14:50.400 -> 01:14:54.200] along with buying everything they can from Ferrari and just being a little bit
[01:14:54.200 -> 01:15:00.520] clever on their own. Worked really well for them for the most part until
[01:15:00.520 -> 01:15:08.660] everybody's favorite F1 sponsor, Rich Energy, stranded them without money.
[01:15:08.660 -> 01:15:15.000] And subsequently, they get rid of their veteran drivers, both Magnuson and Grosjean, and they
[01:15:15.000 -> 01:15:22.100] bring in Mazepin and Mazepin's father's company as a sponsor, and they bring in Schumacher.
[01:15:22.100 -> 01:15:35.320] This was never a great fit, but if they hadn't done that, we might have said goodbye to the team. And now, obviously, world political
[01:15:35.320 -> 01:15:44.160] events solved the problem of Mazepin and Mazepin's dad's company being on the team. But they
[01:15:44.160 -> 01:15:46.480] were left with Schumacher when they brought
[01:15:46.480 -> 01:15:51.920] Magnussen back in, and it was very clear to me early on from the way they presented it
[01:15:51.920 -> 01:15:58.120] that they weren't going to do a whole lot to make it easy for him.
[01:15:58.120 -> 01:16:03.200] And if you think about it as well, Chris, you know, they had to bring in these two guys,
[01:16:03.200 -> 01:16:08.400] Mazepin and Schumacher, because look, they put all their coins and all their money into one basket
[01:16:08.400 -> 01:16:11.240] and all their eggs into one basket for 2022.
[01:16:11.240 -> 01:16:13.640] And they actually started the season off on a good note.
[01:16:13.640 -> 01:16:17.360] Q3, Magnussen qualifying in the top 10 in that car.
[01:16:17.360 -> 01:16:20.360] And they had actually sort of a great plan there in that context.
[01:16:20.360 -> 01:16:23.600] But where I don't think Mick fits the team
[01:16:23.600 -> 01:16:27.360] is he's a very sort of nice personality,
[01:16:27.360 -> 01:16:31.960] you know? And I know people draw comparisons to his dad, Michael Schumacher, seven-time
[01:16:31.960 -> 01:16:37.360] world champion, ruthless guy, guy who would do anything to win a world championship. And
[01:16:37.360 -> 01:16:41.480] Mick's coming in a context where he's just trying to get his feet wet in the sport and
[01:16:41.480 -> 01:16:48.680] he needs a sort of environment where he can make mistakes. I almost feel like Haas is probably one of the worst environments for him to be in, but
[01:16:48.680 -> 01:16:51.200] he didn't really have any other options.
[01:16:51.200 -> 01:16:57.460] So one of the things I picked up during my time working in the world of junior single
[01:16:57.460 -> 01:17:06.000] seaters was that a lot of different teams take a lot of very different approaches in how they coach and develop their young drivers.
[01:17:06.800 -> 01:17:13.440] And you can have the soft nurturing touch where you have a lot of very open dialogue and it's like,
[01:17:13.440 -> 01:17:16.160] what do you need from us and we can give that to you and let's work this out.
[01:17:17.440 -> 01:17:24.000] And for me that has tended to be the more consistent approach that yields
[01:17:28.000 -> 01:17:34.000] more consistent approach that yields results over a long period of time. But then you would get these big spikes of performance from the teams that were very hard,
[01:17:34.000 -> 01:17:39.000] very aggressive with their drivers. And that's the kind of management style that is going on at Haas.
[01:17:39.000 -> 01:17:45.000] And it very much mirrors what Formula One kind of needs to be.
[01:17:46.000 -> 01:17:47.440] Formula One's very cutthroat.
[01:17:47.440 -> 01:17:49.280] You know, there's not enough time to be
[01:17:49.280 -> 01:17:52.440] lally-pallying around and giving a driver
[01:17:52.440 -> 01:17:55.080] enough time to make mistakes and do all this,
[01:17:55.080 -> 01:18:00.000] especially when Mick was destroying the car
[01:18:00.000 -> 01:18:02.160] and not scoring points with it
[01:18:02.160 -> 01:18:04.420] when he wasn't throwing it at walls,
[01:18:04.420 -> 01:18:08.480] when it was very capable of scoring points with it when he wasn't throwing it at walls, when it was very capable of scoring points.
[01:18:08.480 -> 01:18:10.860] So to me, it's a no-brainer
[01:18:10.860 -> 01:18:14.760] that he ended up on the sidelines this year.
[01:18:16.840 -> 01:18:19.740] I think his performances definitely weren't good enough,
[01:18:19.740 -> 01:18:21.760] but you have to look into why his performances
[01:18:21.760 -> 01:18:23.120] weren't good enough, and you just said there
[01:18:23.120 -> 01:18:28.480] in regards to different styles of coaching, Chris, and it's in all forms of sport and I think in
[01:18:28.480 -> 01:18:34.540] particular I don't think there's no really shimmering around it or that Gunther Steiner
[01:18:34.540 -> 01:18:41.100] has come across now as a poor manager, as a poor coach. He has a very particular hard
[01:18:41.100 -> 01:18:46.480] style of coaching and he was very dismissive of Mick Schumacher at the start of the season.
[01:18:47.080 -> 01:18:51.580] Magnussen coming back into the fold was like it was the prodigal son had returned
[01:18:52.120 -> 01:18:55.740] and all their eggs were put into Magnussen's basket.
[01:18:55.760 -> 01:18:58.480] There was no support and nurturing of Mick Schumacher.
[01:18:58.860 -> 01:19:04.880] In essence, this is his rookie year because Ima Mazepin had a car that was
[01:19:06.540 -> 01:19:14.440] languishing at the very back of the grid just not doing anything. It was so horrible for them to drive. He had to be a very poor
[01:19:14.440 -> 01:19:21.400] teammate which he pretty much did nine times out of ten. I think overall for Mick Schumacher,
[01:19:21.400 -> 01:19:32.720] I'm glad that he's out of that system now. I do hope he gets another opportunity because it will then be to salute to Gunther Steiner.
[01:19:32.720 -> 01:19:34.600] But actually, do you know what?
[01:19:34.600 -> 01:19:35.840] I was good enough.
[01:19:35.840 -> 01:19:39.920] It was you that was the problem.
[01:19:39.920 -> 01:19:51.160] I think that was perfectly wrapped up about everything I wanted to say on that topic. We have Matt. This is a guy who Haas has given up on because of crash damage and adding more pressure every
[01:19:51.160 -> 01:19:56.320] time he needs to be instilled with confidence and he's a young guy, he's not as ruthless,
[01:19:56.320 -> 01:19:58.200] he doesn't have that type of personality.
[01:19:58.200 -> 01:19:59.200] He needs confidence.
[01:19:59.200 -> 01:20:04.640] And as Scott said, he's with a team boss that just, I think, mismanaged sort of his driver
[01:20:04.640 -> 01:20:08.740] there. And I know Mick didn't perform on the racetrack, but I also think he wasn't helped by the pressure
[01:20:08.740 -> 01:20:10.280] that Gunther was giving him.
[01:20:10.280 -> 01:20:11.280] Right.
[01:20:11.280 -> 01:20:12.940] So let's take issue with this.
[01:20:12.940 -> 01:20:18.640] Do we all remember the footage from Silverstone where Mick scored points and almost passed
[01:20:18.640 -> 01:20:21.760] Verstappen on track, albeit in an ailing Red Bull?
[01:20:21.760 -> 01:20:22.840] Yeah, okay.
[01:20:22.840 -> 01:20:25.520] That's the driver they could have had this season.
[01:20:25.920 -> 01:20:29.880] Had they just bothered a little bit, but I'm going to disagree with you.
[01:20:30.640 -> 01:20:32.960] I don't think it was mismanagement.
[01:20:33.840 -> 01:20:38.480] I think they actively undermine him as a driver from the start.
[01:20:38.580 -> 01:20:43.280] And I think if you look at Magnuson who let's all recall what happened
[01:20:43.280 -> 01:20:46.440] to him at McLaren as a rookie, I think Magnuson picked who let's all recall what happened to him at McLaren as a rookie.
[01:20:46.440 -> 01:20:51.640] I think Magnuson picked up on it and did everything he could to help Schumacher.
[01:20:51.640 -> 01:20:55.280] But Schumacher is young and he has an uncommonly soft brain.
[01:20:55.280 -> 01:20:56.280] I understand this.
[01:20:56.280 -> 01:20:58.580] I suffered with this syndrome too.
[01:20:58.580 -> 01:21:02.480] So we see footage of push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push,
[01:21:02.480 -> 01:21:03.480] push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push,
[01:21:03.480 -> 01:21:04.480] push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push,
[01:21:04.480 -> 01:21:08.240] push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push push mic push push mic then what do you get a crash did he really crash that much no lots of drivers had more crashes in him his
[01:21:08.240 -> 01:21:14.000] crashes were very large and expensive and that was used as an excuse to get
[01:21:14.000 -> 01:21:19.860] rid of him and I've seen it in the music world a lot both at the extreme
[01:21:19.860 -> 01:21:24.360] professional level and I was told this story by someone who used to play in the
[01:21:24.360 -> 01:21:26.320] Chicago Symphony a conductor would just say
[01:21:26.800 -> 01:21:31.720] play softer play softer play softer until someone cracked a note and then you're fired and
[01:21:32.200 -> 01:21:37.520] Then like and in the conservatory level where they'd be like, oh, that sounds good. Play it again. Play it again play it again
[01:21:37.520 -> 01:21:43.320] So by time they go play for someone they've got no chops left at all. It's a very common thing
[01:21:43.320 -> 01:21:46.400] I think Schumacher was taken advantage of
[01:21:46.400 -> 01:21:52.560] that way by trusting, overly trusting in that circumstance, his race engineer, and they
[01:21:52.560 -> 01:21:57.240] used it to purposely get rid of him. But again, I say, look at Silverstone. That's a driver
[01:21:57.240 -> 01:22:02.560] that reasonably should be on the grid and has some talent, even if it takes him a while
[01:22:02.560 -> 01:22:03.560] to get there.
[01:22:03.560 -> 01:22:08.760] I think you're bang on in regards to the crashes being an excuse to get rid of him,
[01:22:08.760 -> 01:22:12.940] but you have to look why those crashes came about because he was given conflicting
[01:22:12.940 -> 01:22:14.860] information the whole time.
[01:22:15.280 -> 01:22:19.360] He's being told to push and that he's not going fast enough and that he's too slow.
[01:22:19.760 -> 01:22:22.120] Then when he does, he does,
[01:22:22.160 -> 01:22:26.160] he's lacking that confidence already because of the budget cap and he's probably
[01:22:26.160 -> 01:22:33.040] been told behind closed doors to be careful. We can't do this. Saudi Arabia, that crash
[01:22:33.040 -> 01:22:37.340] was a big one and it was the second race of the season. So he's probably been told a telling
[01:22:37.340 -> 01:22:42.480] off that, look, we can't afford for that to happen. Gunther Steiner, there's footage of
[01:22:42.480 -> 01:22:47.280] him saying to Gene Haar, so that's's gonna cost probably a million to a million and a half.
[01:22:47.280 -> 01:22:50.480] I mean, that's substantial amount of money.
[01:22:50.480 -> 01:22:52.200] But then throughout the season,
[01:22:52.200 -> 01:22:54.440] he's questioning his engineer going,
[01:22:54.440 -> 01:22:55.840] well, can I push?
[01:22:55.840 -> 01:22:56.740] How are the brakes?
[01:22:56.740 -> 01:23:00.320] Because he's clearly been given a telling off
[01:23:00.320 -> 01:23:03.400] behind closed doors that you can't be doing this.
[01:23:03.400 -> 01:23:04.560] And then he's being told that,
[01:23:04.560 -> 01:23:05.220] oh, he's too slow.
[01:23:05.220 -> 01:23:06.500] He needs to go faster and faster.
[01:23:06.500 -> 01:23:13.040] So it's as, as a driver where confidence is so important and they're
[01:23:13.040 -> 01:23:14.720] traveling at substantial speeds.
[01:23:15.500 -> 01:23:18.000] What does he know what to do?
[01:23:18.000 -> 01:23:21.620] Whereas Magnuson, it seems like was because he's the more experienced one.
[01:23:21.620 -> 01:23:25.840] He's been told to go out and do what needs to be
[01:23:25.840 -> 01:23:26.840] done.
[01:23:26.840 -> 01:23:30.200] And he has that previous experience of even working with Gunther Steiner and probably
[01:23:30.200 -> 01:23:33.120] knowing how to handle the guys there.
[01:23:33.120 -> 01:23:37.400] Well, Chris, on that note, not only did he not have the confidence of Gunther Steiner,
[01:23:37.400 -> 01:23:42.360] but as Scott said, Gene Haas was not, it sort of didn't help Mick Schumacher.
[01:23:42.360 -> 01:23:50.340] And these conversations between Gunther and Gene gene behind the scenes you could tell that gene also didn't seem to be the biggest fan of mc shumacher.
[01:23:50.860 -> 01:23:55.640] Yeah because jeans the one paying for his damage and in defense of us.
[01:23:56.020 -> 01:24:02.900] I can understand why it's such a concern for them when they were one of if not the only team.
[01:24:06.240 -> 01:24:06.880] when they were one of, if not the only team, to be operating underneath the budget cap.
[01:24:10.640 -> 01:24:16.080] Now that is, we have a different scenario now because they have the MoneyGram sponsorship and they brought in a lot of new sponsors from North America as well, so that's not as much of an issue
[01:24:16.080 -> 01:24:23.120] now, but they also have two much more experienced drivers who, well, in theory, won't be chucking it
[01:24:23.120 -> 01:24:26.160] at the scenery quite so much.
[01:24:26.160 -> 01:24:30.760] So I have a little bit of sympathy for the guy who writes the paychecks to the guy who
[01:24:30.760 -> 01:24:32.720] keeps smashing up his car.
[01:24:32.720 -> 01:24:33.720] Matt?
[01:24:33.720 -> 01:24:40.640] And the thing I want to add to that, one is I think Steiner very much fanned that flame,
[01:24:40.640 -> 01:24:45.480] but at the end of the day, as I discussed at the beginning of this, this was never a
[01:24:45.480 -> 01:24:47.640] driver they really wanted to hire.
[01:24:47.640 -> 01:24:49.880] They never wanted to hire rookies and train them.
[01:24:49.880 -> 01:24:51.860] That was not the business plan.
[01:24:51.860 -> 01:24:56.440] So I'm not surprised Haas didn't like him because that didn't fit with what he thought
[01:24:56.440 -> 01:24:58.120] they were going to do in the first place.
[01:24:58.120 -> 01:25:03.480] It was only out of necessity that they found themselves with Schumacher as one of their
[01:25:03.480 -> 01:25:04.480] drivers.
[01:25:04.480 -> 01:25:07.840] And of course, the F word count from Gunther Steiner in this Drive to Survive series was
[01:25:07.840 -> 01:25:11.200] probably at an absolute high as well.
[01:25:11.200 -> 01:25:15.320] If you were doing a world championship on that, Haas would win their first world championship,
[01:25:15.320 -> 01:25:16.920] I'll tell you right now.
[01:25:16.920 -> 01:25:18.320] What a series it was.
[01:25:18.320 -> 01:25:22.160] This is our panel of guests, Matt, Chris, and Scott.
[01:25:22.160 -> 01:25:23.160] Follow us all.
[01:25:23.160 -> 01:25:24.160] I'm Jonathan Simon.
[01:25:24.160 -> 01:25:25.440] You can follow us all on social media.
[01:25:25.440 -> 01:25:29.440] Check the show notes, of course, for that. But for now, it's back to Spanners in the Shed.
[01:25:37.840 -> 01:25:42.560] Thank you, Jonathan and the team. If you want to follow those guys on social media,
[01:25:42.560 -> 01:25:47.140] and I think you should, go and follow the links in the show notes below. The links to all their social
[01:25:47.140 -> 01:25:51.920] media is there and there's also a link to our Patreon. If you got this far, maybe
[01:25:51.920 -> 01:25:56.280] you'd consider supporting us at patreon.com forward slash missed apex. A
[01:25:56.280 -> 01:25:59.920] little bit of extra content from us every couple of weeks, an ad free feed
[01:25:59.920 -> 01:26:06.920] and a patron forum on slack. But the number one thing we could really, really do with here on
[01:26:06.920 -> 01:26:11.560] Mist Apex podcast at the start of the season is to tell your friends. If you want them to enjoy
[01:26:11.560 -> 01:26:19.560] Mist Apex in the way you do, just share the link with them www.mistapex.net. Stick that in the
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[01:26:30.020 -> 01:26:35.860] enjoy this sort of ridiculousness. Until we see you next, work hard, be kind and have
[01:26:35.860 -> 01:27:13.000] fun. This was Mist Apex Podcast. ♪♪ Looking for a fun way to win up to 25 times your money this football season?
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