F1 News June 11th 2023

Spanners and Trumpets are joined by the voice of the London ePrix, PR meister Chris Stevens and Kyle ‘Edgy’ Power as they “mangent” all the poutine on their way to the Canadian Grand Prix. From BoP lessons to Mercedes’ misgivings, from Spa’s survival to titanic tire tussles, no aero upgrade goes undocumented in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast. 

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[00:55.760 -> 01:10.900] fantasy sports made easy. You are listening to missed apex podcast we live f1
[01:19.840 -> 01:30.720] welcome to missed apex podcast I'm your host Richard ready today We're going to cover all your f1 use and we'll ask should we manage expectations for Mercedes?
[01:31.200 -> 01:33.200] Will Aston Martin bounce back?
[01:33.620 -> 01:39.360] What would Bridgestone do if they oust Pirelli and can spa remain on the calendar and more on this?
[01:39.560 -> 01:43.900] Newstastic episode of missed apex podcast, but first I'll be asking my panel
[01:43.960 -> 01:46.000] What can Formula One learn from my panel what can formula one learn
[01:46.000 -> 01:51.440] from other motorsports can f1 learn from le man for example but we are an independent podcast
[01:51.440 -> 01:55.520] produced in the podcasting shed with the kind permission of our better halves we aim to bring
[01:55.520 -> 02:00.240] you a race review before your monday morning commute we might be wrong but we're first
[02:05.640 -> 02:09.400] first. We're joined in the shed by Matt, two rumpets. How's it going Matt?
[02:09.400 -> 02:15.980] I'm going to use the words Ferrari and strategy in a sentence and I'm going to use them sincerely.
[02:15.980 -> 02:19.360] Of course yes, because there was a Ferrari car in Le Mans. We're also joined by Chris
[02:19.360 -> 02:21.040] Stevens. How's it going Chris?
[02:21.040 -> 02:28.080] Hey Spanners, I'm going to remind Matt that Ferrari doesn't actually run the Ferrari team
[02:28.080 -> 02:33.200] in hypercar. Okay and we're not going to turn this into a Le Mans review, don't make me break my
[02:33.200 -> 02:38.560] promise. We're also joined fresh from the barbecue from, by Kyle Power. How's it going Kyle?
[02:39.440 -> 02:43.840] Good, it's almost requisite for there to be a 24-hour race for me to appear on the show now.
[02:43.840 -> 02:47.600] Well I have a good habit of appearing on immediately after a 24-hour race.
[02:47.600 -> 02:57.000] Well, I hope you're all in good spirits, and I certainly am, because I spent yesterday being introduced to the Le Mans 24-hour for the first time.
[02:57.000 -> 03:05.840] And I have to say, I've never really sat down for the Le Mans 24 before, or any kind of endurance racing, apart from going to Silverstone to see a six-hour
[03:05.840 -> 03:10.800] race which you know I've dipped in and out of it but I've never sat down and tried to fully
[03:10.800 -> 03:16.720] absorb an endurance race simply because I don't think I have that attention span generally. An
[03:16.720 -> 03:22.640] F1 race for me is always about right you know a couple of hours of Formula One action to cap off
[03:22.640 -> 03:25.440] a weekend of a gentle build up of practice
[03:25.440 -> 03:30.720] and qualifying and I have to say after that experience of sitting and watching about eight
[03:30.720 -> 03:36.960] hours of it before going home I still think 24 hours is far too long. It's not for me,
[03:36.960 -> 03:41.680] I can definitely see why people like it and there was loads of cool stuff but what I found
[03:41.680 -> 03:49.320] interesting was the different approaches to motorsport and the rules and the elements of competition. So I've
[03:49.320 -> 03:54.640] got an armful of things that I saw from Le Mans and some other rules from other
[03:54.640 -> 03:59.600] motorsport series and and I'm gonna ask can Formula One learn from those other
[03:59.600 -> 04:03.960] motorsports. So first off I just want to ask our panel and see what kind of
[04:03.960 -> 04:05.280] depth of motorsport we
[04:05.280 -> 04:11.440] have around the panel. I think me and Matt are probably the most F1-centric of the guys on the
[04:11.440 -> 04:16.960] panel, but I'm certainly, you know, I spent a lot of time growing up watching MotoGP and Superbikes
[04:16.960 -> 04:21.840] because I was forced to by my dad, who was desperate to get me into the biking world,
[04:21.840 -> 04:25.960] which I did briefly. You know, I am a licensed motorcycle rider, Kyle.
[04:26.240 -> 04:31.340] And I've also like watched quite a bit of racing in terms of karting, so I've commentated on karting series.
[04:31.340 -> 04:33.960] And so that is probably the limit of my
[04:34.220 -> 04:40.060] racing series knowledge for something that I've sat down and actually got into over the course of the season. What about you, Kyle?
[04:40.820 -> 04:43.000] I've watched all sorts of sports. I like it.
[04:43.000 -> 04:45.360] So my main one's obviously Formula One, but I love
[04:45.360 -> 04:51.120] MotoGP and the subsequent support classes, Moto3 and Moto2. Superbikes, I used to be a marshal for
[04:51.120 -> 04:54.480] the British Superbikes, I used to do World Superbikes when I used to come to the country, so
[04:55.040 -> 05:00.000] quite involved with that. And as for karting and stuff like that, it's weird. When I was competing,
[05:00.000 -> 05:04.080] I wasn't really interested in the racing, unless I was actually in the race. When I wasn't in the
[05:04.080 -> 05:07.920] race, I didn't really pay much attention to it, but I would imagine it's a bit better if you're
[05:07.920 -> 05:12.320] not competing and just there for the for the racing or commentating. But generally it's Formula
[05:12.320 -> 05:16.640] One and MotoGP are my two sort of biggies and obviously we have a half an eye on WEC as well
[05:16.640 -> 05:20.640] with the Le Mans stuff so if that's on I'll watch it. And Chris obviously you've done a lot of
[05:20.640 -> 05:30.080] commentary with our sim racing stuff, with our karting as well, and now with sports cars. Yeah, I mean I've worked in junior single-seater racing, I've worked in
[05:30.080 -> 05:36.960] GT racing, I've worked in endurance racing with prototypes and GTs. Basically if it's got an
[05:36.960 -> 05:45.680] engine or some wheels, I'll watch it because I started out in MotoGP as well, Formula E obviously as well. So yeah,
[05:45.680 -> 05:51.760] I'll watch any kind of motorsport really. And Matt? Well yeah, I mean obviously Formula E,
[05:51.760 -> 05:57.920] Chris and I share that. We spent a long time watching it very closely. I don't know, growing
[05:57.920 -> 06:06.960] up it was IndyCar, you know, and sports cars and Le Mans is really the memory I have of being young in, you know,
[06:06.960 -> 06:12.000] motorsports races like that. But truthfully, like if you're talking about other racing series,
[06:12.000 -> 06:16.240] I hate to admit it, but as a cyclist, it was really being able to watch the Tour de France
[06:16.800 -> 06:23.600] that changed sort of my sports viewing habits tremendously. And that came on in the early 90s.
[06:24.240 -> 06:27.500] Excellent. So we do have a variety of motorsport around the panel.
[06:27.500 -> 06:34.500] So that's, I think, as F1 fans we do sometimes get a bit tunneled in on our sport, but let's
[06:34.500 -> 06:37.200] see if we can find some things that perhaps we can borrow.
[06:37.200 -> 06:44.000] And I think the most obvious thing that jumped out at me was the BOP, the balance of performance
[06:44.000 -> 06:46.600] that is seen as a way to kind of level out
[06:46.600 -> 06:52.460] the field. Now, I posted on Twitter earlier and one of the first messages I got was from
[06:52.460 -> 06:56.520] Richard Potts who said, Spanners, please, please, please, before we all get caught up
[06:56.520 -> 07:01.640] in the narrative of the last 24 hours, let's remember two things. Balance of Performance
[07:01.640 -> 07:09.200] is garbage, artificially penalising those who do well, almost two years spent behind the safety car. Well, it was about three or four hours spent
[07:09.200 -> 07:13.440] behind the safety car. But for those who don't know, and I'm certainly one of those who didn't
[07:13.440 -> 07:19.280] and still doesn't really know, the WEC series uses a system of balance of performance. So if a team
[07:19.280 -> 07:25.680] is doing particularly well in one area, they might have their power hobbled, their fuel tank restricted, or some
[07:25.680 -> 07:31.440] kind of weight penalty. Chris, balance of performance, shall we bring it into Formula 1?
[07:31.440 -> 07:36.400] No, but let me clarify something, right, that makes it sound like it's a success penalty,
[07:36.400 -> 07:45.000] as if it's applied because you're, you're doing well,
[07:45.000 -> 07:47.740] like you win a race and therefore you automatically get some sort of penalty.
[07:47.740 -> 07:48.640] That's not the case.
[07:49.160 -> 07:55.880] It's applied across GT racing and across prototype racing so that theoretically
[07:56.360 -> 08:01.280] the cars can all do the same sort of lap time and produce that lap time in their
[08:01.280 -> 08:04.900] own way, but it's a way to keep it exciting and engaging.
[08:09.500 -> 08:16.000] And when you have, particularly in GT racing, where there's like 12 active manufacturers in the GT3 category, you have to find a way to make it level for all of them, because
[08:16.000 -> 08:20.740] otherwise you will get one manufacturer that dominates and no one will watch it.
[08:20.740 -> 08:26.540] And when it's not Formula One, you need things like this to make it exciting. People
[08:26.540 -> 08:35.020] love touring cars, even though they'll give the race one winner 60 kilos of success ballast.
[08:35.020 -> 08:39.840] Well now they'd use a hybrid system, but before, my opinion, the more effective method was
[08:39.840 -> 08:44.520] to give them a massive ballast and it produced amazing racing. And no one cares because the
[08:44.520 -> 08:48.660] racing was amazing. Does it belong in Formula One? Absolutely not because that's not what
[08:48.660 -> 08:56.520] Formula One is about. I agree with Chris. So in Le Mans and particularly in GTs and
[08:56.520 -> 09:01.000] stuff like that, the cars are vastly different. You've got inline sixes, you've got V8s, you've
[09:01.000 -> 09:08.200] got all sorts of cars, all different weights. So you can see why they apply a sort of semi-fudge factor, which is kind of what the bop is to try to close
[09:08.200 -> 09:14.360] it all up and make them run to a set, sort of a predetermined lap time that they should
[09:14.360 -> 09:19.800] be able to do. But there is a moral line here, and I'm not sure where it sits with me. If
[09:19.800 -> 09:23.120] I was one of the manufacturers, I'd be sitting there and be like, well, why am I going to
[09:23.120 -> 09:27.600] spend millions making a really good car? Because they're just going to bop the hell out of us. So why don't we
[09:27.600 -> 09:33.520] just do a slightly half-arsed job and we know that we'll be bopped into contention. So there's a bit
[09:33.520 -> 09:38.320] of an elephant in the room there. And I think the fact that sort of some of the teams in WEEC
[09:38.320 -> 09:43.120] are kind of like discouraged from talking about bop too much, because it is this massive elephant
[09:43.120 -> 09:45.280] in the room. Now it does serve a purpose
[09:45.280 -> 09:48.320] and it did make the race quite exciting
[09:48.320 -> 09:49.200] and does close it all up.
[09:49.200 -> 09:51.540] But yeah, for Formula One, it's ludicrous.
[09:51.540 -> 09:53.520] It's kind of a mockery of meritocracy really,
[09:53.520 -> 09:55.260] but you can see why it's applied in WECK.
[09:55.260 -> 09:57.260] And I do think they do a good job,
[09:57.260 -> 09:59.400] but it is, I don't know where the moral line is there,
[09:59.400 -> 10:01.120] personally, for me, it doesn't quite sit right.
[10:01.120 -> 10:02.260] See, that's really interesting.
[10:02.260 -> 10:03.920] I didn't realize that they were encouraged
[10:03.920 -> 10:06.480] to not talk about the balance of performance, the bot,
[10:06.480 -> 10:08.040] because it seemed to sort of dominate
[10:08.040 -> 10:09.160] a little bit the narrative.
[10:09.160 -> 10:11.960] So essentially, from what I can gather here,
[10:11.960 -> 10:15.720] Toyota had to run 35 kilograms of extra weight.
[10:15.720 -> 10:19.680] And also, they couldn't use the tire warmers.
[10:19.680 -> 10:21.340] Or there was something with tire warmers.
[10:21.340 -> 10:24.200] That rule changed, because Ferrari had made a fuss.
[10:24.200 -> 10:27.840] And then they complained about that on social media. I think I saw Lucas de Grassi complaining
[10:27.840 -> 10:32.720] saying, well, hang on, Toyota made us put things in our fuel tank to reduce our fuel capacity.
[10:33.600 -> 10:35.040] Everyone whinged about the tyre warmers.
[10:35.040 -> 10:41.520] Oh, okay. Fair enough. So, yeah, so that kind of, it dominated the narrative. So it's interesting
[10:41.520 -> 10:46.080] that the teams are told kind of not to talk about it or encouraged not to draw attention to it.
[10:46.080 -> 10:48.840] Very similar in rental cart championships as well.
[10:48.840 -> 10:52.580] There's the big elephant in the room, which is that whatever you try to do, you're always
[10:52.580 -> 10:56.480] going to have one cart that is a couple of tenths faster or slower than the rest of the
[10:56.480 -> 10:57.480] pack.
[10:57.480 -> 11:02.380] And I've been interviewing people in a go-kart series, and they've gone, OK, so what made
[11:02.380 -> 11:03.380] the difference today?
[11:03.380 -> 11:07.600] He goes, well, I had a rocket ship that carts two or three tenths faster than everyone else. And you see the director going,
[11:07.600 -> 11:10.560] no, no, move it away from that. We've got to cut that out from the video.
[11:11.360 -> 11:14.000] Matt, balance of performance. Defend it, maybe.
[11:15.360 -> 11:19.600] First of all, yeah, in terms of the series in which it's employed,
[11:20.240 -> 11:25.600] it clearly worked pretty good based on the latest available evidence.
[11:25.600 -> 11:28.200] I could address Kyle's points,
[11:28.200 -> 11:31.300] but I want to make a sort of a larger point here,
[11:31.300 -> 11:35.000] which is I think all series to a certain extent
[11:35.000 -> 11:38.600] engage in this kind of behavior with Formula 1.
[11:38.600 -> 11:43.700] It just is, occurs over a longer period of time and is regulatory.
[11:43.700 -> 11:48.800] We see things, clever breakthroughs, double diffusers,
[11:49.000 -> 11:54.000] mass dampers, Frick, DOS, F-DUX, all being banned.
[11:54.440 -> 11:57.560] We see regulation changes that affect
[11:57.560 -> 12:00.600] certain manufacturers more than others.
[12:00.600 -> 12:04.440] It's just, it occurs over a longer period of time
[12:04.440 -> 12:08.400] in Formula One and it isn't as direct.
[12:08.400 -> 12:18.400] And the thing to understand about how WECC looks at it, I believe, is that they, what they're looking at essentially is lap time discrepancy
[12:18.400 -> 12:26.880] between the cars running as fast and as hard as they can. So yeah, the teams can and will play games
[12:26.880 -> 12:33.280] to any extent they can, but after a few races, your data is pretty good. And they make adjustments
[12:33.280 -> 12:38.080] to try and keep all the cars within a certain lap time. But it's not just weight, it can be
[12:38.080 -> 12:43.040] the amount of fuel, it can be the amount of horsepower or fuel flow or the amount of
[12:43.040 -> 12:49.440] aerodynamics they're allowed and stuff like that. So they adjust parameters which is why to Kyle's
[12:49.440 -> 12:53.760] point, a manufacturer, you want to have your strengths as strong as possible as
[12:53.760 -> 12:58.760] the cars get faster so that you can keep up even if you're artificially hobbled at
[12:58.760 -> 13:11.000] the beginning of the season. You could argue that a cost cap and a scaled level of wind tunnel time based on championship results
[13:11.000 -> 13:26.960] is in a way a form of balance of performance or let's call it an equalizer that is disregarding financial assets, basically. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I don't
[13:26.960 -> 13:32.800] think there's anything wrong with, you know, artificial... no, it's not even an artificial,
[13:32.800 -> 13:34.760] it's equaling out the cars.
[13:34.760 -> 13:35.760] Yeah, it's...
[13:35.760 -> 13:36.760] In other series.
[13:36.760 -> 13:42.000] Yeah, from a viewer point of view, Matt's right, it did work. And so let's say we turn
[13:42.000 -> 13:45.760] up to practice for the Canadian Grand Prix and down the straight
[13:45.760 -> 13:51.120] Red Bull's DRS is just looking unstoppable like it has been all season and then F1 suddenly turned
[13:51.120 -> 13:55.200] around and went well that's kind of too good so what we're going to do is we're going to take away
[13:55.200 -> 14:00.560] your DRS or we're going to say you have we're going to do a Red Bull DRS line and everyone
[14:00.560 -> 14:05.960] else DRS line. That would feel more artificial than the systems Matt was describing.
[14:05.960 -> 14:12.720] Exactly. That, to me, goes against what Formula One is about, because it is an engineering
[14:12.720 -> 14:17.920] challenge, and the whole point is for the manufacturers to build the fastest car possible.
[14:17.920 -> 14:24.040] Whereas things like GT racing, where balance and performance is most utilised, it's more
[14:24.040 -> 14:26.140] about customer teams.
[14:26.140 -> 14:27.680] The idea is that it doesn't really matter
[14:27.680 -> 14:29.360] what manufacturer you buy from,
[14:29.360 -> 14:31.880] you should ideally be able to achieve
[14:31.880 -> 14:35.440] the same level of performance from your car.
[14:35.440 -> 14:38.000] And it's more down to the team and drivers
[14:38.000 -> 14:40.840] to make the most out of that.
[14:40.840 -> 14:42.960] Go on, Matt, and then Kyle.
[14:42.960 -> 14:44.600] Well, just to make the point,
[14:44.600 -> 14:46.240] you mean like Aston being ahead of
[14:46.240 -> 14:53.680] Mercedes in the races in terms of the customers being competitive? Yeah no but it's a different
[14:54.400 -> 15:00.480] type of customer because they're buying an entire car from a manufacturer and competing against
[15:00.480 -> 15:05.440] identical machinery run by other teams. I was gonna say say, this is a whole other chat, Matt.
[15:05.440 -> 15:08.280] I'd love to do a segment in the future on customer teams,
[15:08.280 -> 15:10.400] because we use the term in F1 customer team
[15:10.400 -> 15:13.800] quite loosely to mean an engine customer,
[15:13.800 -> 15:17.200] rather than what I would say is, when I want a customer team,
[15:17.200 -> 15:20.880] I'm like, go and let Dallara just make a chassis that Derek
[15:20.880 -> 15:24.480] Racing can just turn up in, and go racing, and then figure out
[15:24.480 -> 15:25.280] their own solutions.
[15:25.280 -> 15:31.200] Kyle. Yeah, so just to sort of clear up maybe sort of sum up what Chris was going about,
[15:31.200 -> 15:36.080] the Formula 1, wait, they kind of do do a sort of bop, but it's more of a passive bop. You're
[15:36.080 -> 15:40.880] bopping the opportunity for the team to then design the car by reducing the wind tunnel hours
[15:40.880 -> 15:47.680] rather than bopping the actual car itself. So you still give them a window and an envelope to actually work around those regulations. So it's kind
[15:47.680 -> 15:51.240] of more of a passive bop rather than an active, you know, nerf your car.
[15:51.240 -> 15:55.600] Yes. And that's what it felt like when I was watching the build up to Le Mans. It looked
[15:55.600 -> 16:00.520] like a nerfing, like this is specifically going to hurt the show. The Toyota is going
[16:00.520 -> 16:06.800] off into the distance. So let's actively nerf. Does that make the win less satisfactory?
[16:06.800 -> 16:11.680] I mean, so over the course of the season, if Mercedes catch up with Red Bull because
[16:11.680 -> 16:16.320] they have got more wind tunnel time, that somehow doesn't feel as bad over the course
[16:16.320 -> 16:20.280] of a season than if they simply said, OK, Red Bull, you're too far ahead now, you have
[16:20.280 -> 16:29.240] to carry weight. That would obviously be better for the show, but I think there would be an outcry. So it's weird, we are torn between, we're essentially all saying
[16:29.240 -> 16:35.120] balance of performance would be bad for Formula 1, but also does exist and happens, and actually
[16:35.120 -> 16:39.040] we're not opposed to it. So it's a weird balance, isn't it, Matt?
[16:39.040 -> 16:44.080] Yeah, it is. I mean, like, I know you were opposed to the separate rules for DRS, but
[16:44.080 -> 16:46.420] what if Formula 1 said, oh, if you're leading the race to the separate rules for DRS, but what if Formula One said, oh if you're leading the race
[16:46.420 -> 16:49.260] You're not allowed DRS. It applies to all the teams
[16:49.680 -> 16:54.840] But it would very obviously be aimed at Red Bull. Would that count as a balance of performance or not?
[16:54.840 -> 17:01.240] But I mean there's endless computer games examples, aren't there? I think like Project Gotham City Racing. What a classic!
[17:01.240 -> 17:07.320] I want to go back and play that Kyle. That was so good. But yeah, you could, like with the electronics we've got, Kyle, you could literally just,
[17:07.320 -> 17:10.600] you know, like an electronics go-kart track with electric karts, you know, you can just
[17:10.600 -> 17:14.920] have a fader. And as the team's pulling away, you could just pull them back if you wanted
[17:14.920 -> 17:19.200] to. And as long as it was the same for everyone, and it happened for everyone when they got
[17:19.200 -> 17:22.480] ahead, maybe that's one way to go.
[17:22.480 -> 17:25.200] The concept of that, which I think Stefano came out with
[17:25.200 -> 17:27.200] and Braun, with a preposterous interview,
[17:27.200 -> 17:29.160] said they may be thinking about an active airway
[17:29.160 -> 17:30.600] so they could nerf the leaders.
[17:30.600 -> 17:32.520] This reminds me of, look, it's a bit Mario Kart, isn't it?
[17:32.520 -> 17:33.860] When you put, you can never pull away
[17:33.860 -> 17:35.120] from the AI in Mario Kart.
[17:35.120 -> 17:36.440] They always catch up with you.
[17:36.440 -> 17:37.280] Oh yeah, Mario Kart.
[17:37.280 -> 17:39.120] And on Gran Turismo, it's absolutely terrible.
[17:39.120 -> 17:40.960] So that actually makes me feel sick to the core.
[17:40.960 -> 17:42.080] And I think a lot of the teams
[17:42.080 -> 17:44.000] would actually kick off against that.
[17:44.000 -> 17:48.720] As Toto Wolff has actually come out and said, he goes, don't cobble Red Bull, it's up to
[17:48.720 -> 17:50.320] us to do a better job to catch up.
[17:50.320 -> 17:52.480] And I think quite a lot of the teams will have that same sentiment.
[17:52.480 -> 17:56.880] And that concept in the Mario Kart is called rubber banding.
[17:56.880 -> 17:57.880] Ah, nice!
[17:57.880 -> 18:03.800] But yeah, but Matt, like you said, there is technical rubber banding, but they just do
[18:03.800 -> 18:10.960] it ad hoc. Yeah, very much they do it ad hoc. They take away the advantages the leading team has,
[18:10.960 -> 18:16.560] and there's such a long, long history of it in Formula One. Kyle and I have even done some shows
[18:16.560 -> 18:22.480] about some of the things that have been banned. And for Toto to say that he doesn't want them
[18:22.480 -> 18:26.840] hobbled flies in the face of how F1 has worked for,
[18:26.840 -> 18:30.160] you know, since the 90s, at least.
[18:30.160 -> 18:32.560] Yeah, so look, a balance of performance
[18:32.560 -> 18:35.880] is a much bigger topic than I thought it was going to be.
[18:35.880 -> 18:37.760] So I think, you know, personally,
[18:37.760 -> 18:41.760] I would prefer that there was just a smaller margin overall
[18:41.760 -> 18:44.240] for F1 teams to spread.
[18:44.240 -> 18:46.560] So you do want some innovation, you do want people
[18:46.560 -> 18:51.600] to be able to stretch their legs and come out with a competitive advantage if they've
[18:51.600 -> 18:56.600] done the better engineering job. Otherwise, it's IndyCar. And if you want to go and watch
[18:56.600 -> 19:01.060] IndyCar, from what I've seen this season, it looks like a really good series. And so
[19:01.060 -> 19:05.120] if you want to watch a spec series, there are spec series to go out and watch.
[19:05.120 -> 19:11.360] However, you can't have freedom of innovation and a cost cap. So if you've got a cost cap,
[19:11.360 -> 19:14.240] we might just have to get to the point, Chris, where you just go, okay, do you know what,
[19:14.240 -> 19:19.440] actually 70% of the car is spec. You go, you've got a spec floor, you've got spec suspension,
[19:19.440 -> 19:25.280] but go nuts on most of the aero. Yeah. I mean mean I like the fact that F1 remains a
[19:25.280 -> 19:28.800] technical engineering challenge where they have to design the cars as much as
[19:28.800 -> 19:32.640] possible and you see you know both solutions work really really well
[19:32.640 -> 19:37.120] because in Formula One, okay Red Bull are running away with it a little bit but we
[19:37.120 -> 19:39.840] still have a field that's pretty much covered by about two to two and a half
[19:39.840 -> 19:46.640] seconds and this Le Mans just gone was one of the best that we have ever seen. One of
[19:46.640 -> 19:54.640] the most competitive with the most runners in contention for the overall victory for
[19:54.640 -> 19:56.320] a very long time.
[19:56.320 -> 20:01.040] And that brings me to my next thing that could Formula One take from other series. Something
[20:01.040 -> 20:11.440] that I actually really liked about Le Mans was the spectacle of having 63 cars and 62 cars. Wow you really picked me up over the extra one so 62
[20:11.440 -> 20:16.200] plus the NASCAR that was in there for some reason was that included?
[20:16.200 -> 20:21.480] That's included in the 62 yeah. But the spectacle of having lots of cars
[20:21.480 -> 20:25.820] with a variety of driver skills certainly made it interesting and
[20:25.820 -> 20:30.760] you know from like olden days Formula One I still just think more cars is
[20:30.760 -> 20:36.140] better a bigger grid is better and not every driver has to be a superstar if you
[20:36.140 -> 20:41.220] want paid drivers to fund F1 and F1 teams to some extent like the drivers do
[20:41.220 -> 20:47.040] in Le Mans then you can have them disappear 26th on the grid.
[20:47.040 -> 20:49.800] Now, I wouldn't care if Logan Sargent, Latifi,
[20:49.800 -> 20:53.840] and Stroll were lined up 23, 24, 25,
[20:53.840 -> 20:55.720] having their own race at the back,
[20:55.720 -> 20:56.900] and you could have that.
[20:56.900 -> 21:00.120] I'll do F1 a deal, because they care what I think.
[21:00.120 -> 21:02.960] If you do at least 26 cars,
[21:02.960 -> 21:07.360] I'll never moan about paid drivers again. Chris. I mean the Nurburgring
[21:07.360 -> 21:14.400] 24 hours has an even bigger grid, about 180 cars. Now obviously the Nordschleife is a lot bigger
[21:14.400 -> 21:19.920] than Le Mans or any F1 circuit indeed but I absolutely agree with you that more cars is
[21:19.920 -> 21:25.000] better. I think it was absolutely superb when we had those three bat market teams in the early 2010s.
[21:25.000 -> 21:26.000] Yes, I loved it.
[21:26.000 -> 21:30.000] With Virgin, Caterham and HRT.
[21:30.000 -> 21:32.000] Some would say they were a bit of a waste of fuel and tyres,
[21:32.000 -> 21:36.000] but they did provide not only that little bit of extra action,
[21:36.000 -> 21:42.000] and even like some championship drama when they're fighting for that last possible point,
[21:42.000 -> 21:53.100] just so that they can finish in the top 10 in the standings. But it gave drivers a doorway into Formula One. And we haven't seen those opportunities
[21:53.100 -> 21:58.260] being created because we're seeing really, really good drivers miss out on a chance in
[21:58.260 -> 22:06.880] Formula One because there just aren't enough spots and driver careers are being extended now massively.
[22:07.080 -> 22:10.760] Fernando Alonso in his 40s and still absolutely on it.
[22:10.960 -> 22:14.480] Lewis Hamilton in his late 30s and absolutely on it still.
[22:14.680 -> 22:21.080] Well, I think in theory, most people would be fine with let's have some more teams
[22:21.280 -> 22:26.400] in the sport, but I think you have a practical problem in that the cars now are so
[22:26.400 -> 22:32.880] big they're like as long as a Ford F-150 and they weigh, you know, almost, what do they weigh, like
[22:32.880 -> 22:38.400] 900 kilograms when they start the race. So you got a problem there that where are you going to put all
[22:38.400 -> 22:46.160] these extra cars to do some actual racing? They're ginormous. And then secondly, I mean, to take your HRT and Marussia
[22:46.160 -> 22:50.720] example, well, Bernie told them there would be a cost gap and no team could spend more
[22:50.720 -> 22:57.760] than like $37 million. And so they foolishly joined and then, then the cost cap didn't
[22:57.760 -> 23:01.920] happen. And they had to fight for, because only the top 10 teams got money. And if they
[23:01.920 -> 23:06.860] didn't get money, they were going out of business, which is what they all more or less did.
[23:06.860 -> 23:12.340] Now you've got this $200 million that they want to be $700 million payment to even get
[23:12.340 -> 23:13.340] into this sport.
[23:13.340 -> 23:14.880] So how do you solve that problem?
[23:14.880 -> 23:16.920] It was like F1 Hunger Games, wasn't it?
[23:16.920 -> 23:17.920] At the back.
[23:17.920 -> 23:21.680] Only one of you can get points and survive and the cost cap is in now.
[23:21.680 -> 23:24.140] But yeah, it was like a mini league of its own.
[23:24.140 -> 23:29.520] And I was advocating for, you know, a Formula.5, where you could have, you know, teams come in with
[23:29.520 -> 23:36.080] more of a custom car, you know, go and just buy last year's harsh chassis and then just get on
[23:36.080 -> 23:41.360] the grid with, you know, an amateur driver, an out and out pay driver, and then a young
[23:41.360 -> 23:45.240] up and coming star or stick Michael Fassbender in your car
[23:45.240 -> 23:49.960] who got stick for crashing but I do believe Michael Fassbender takes his racing very very
[23:49.960 -> 23:56.980] seriously before you go oh just a celebrity you know rich driver. Kyle more cars? Yeah
[23:56.980 -> 24:02.520] more the merrier always more so what I would like to see is you know I know it's sort of
[24:02.520 -> 24:11.040] very fantasy you know sort of fantasy sort of land but I'd love I'd, you know, I know it's sort of very fantasy, you know, sort of fantasy sort of land, but I'd love, I'd love, you know, the Formula Two winner to have a guaranteed Formula One seat,
[24:11.040 -> 24:16.000] and whether they have a team which can buy, like a rule exception, can buy a one or two-year-old
[24:16.000 -> 24:19.920] car to run purely as like an FIA or Formula One team, which they know they're not going to be
[24:19.920 -> 24:24.640] quick, but it guarantees a seat for somebody from the support classes. Because go back to
[24:24.640 -> 24:26.080] heyday, like in the 90s, when I
[24:26.080 -> 24:28.240] was pre qualifying, there's loads of these sort of pay
[24:28.240 -> 24:31.200] teams, and you had a massive variety of drivers on the grid.
[24:31.200 -> 24:33.920] And even, you know, you had some really good drivers going into
[24:33.920 -> 24:36.880] some of these really poor teams first before being picked up.
[24:37.040 -> 24:39.380] And we just don't have the opportunity anymore. It's very
[24:39.380 -> 24:42.600] much, you know, so so exclusive now. So I'd love to have them
[24:42.620 -> 24:49.120] open up a bit. And I would love a Formula 1.5 or a Formula B where they know they're not going to be good but it gives people a shot. One thing I
[24:49.120 -> 24:54.240] don't like with modern Formula 1 is we've got 20 drivers on the grid and because there's so few
[24:54.240 -> 25:00.000] drivers they all have to be superstars. They all have to be interviewed constantly every single
[25:00.000 -> 25:06.880] week and at the moment, sorry America, but Logan Sargent isn't really worthy of the spotlight
[25:06.880 -> 25:11.560] of Formula One at the moment where he's being interviewed constantly, we're constantly speculating.
[25:11.560 -> 25:17.240] At the moment he should be running around at the back just trying to get his bearings,
[25:17.240 -> 25:21.740] just trying to get everything together and at the moment you have a spotlight on every
[25:21.740 -> 25:25.080] single driver and especially like was it about three or four seasons ago, Matt,
[25:25.280 -> 25:29.400] we had maybe three or four like out and out buy-in drivers.
[25:29.720 -> 25:31.880] And you just go with so few seats.
[25:32.120 -> 25:33.440] Every seat is precious.
[25:33.560 -> 25:38.440] If we can have 30 and pre-qualifying, then, you know, I would care much less.
[25:38.640 -> 25:43.240] There should be room for for drivers and teams to kind of go about their business
[25:43.240 -> 25:46.480] and without without every single team and driver
[25:46.480 -> 25:49.960] being a franchise media sensation.
[25:49.960 -> 25:51.560] Well, I agree completely.
[25:51.560 -> 25:53.800] I think you can look at what happened
[25:53.800 -> 25:56.060] to both Gasly and Albon at Red Bull
[25:56.060 -> 25:59.440] as a classic example of the problem
[25:59.440 -> 26:02.600] with the media focus and creating a feedback loop
[26:02.600 -> 26:04.460] that then affects team decisions,
[26:04.460 -> 26:08.720] although they would deny it. I think the evidence is very clear.
[26:08.720 -> 26:14.760] And yeah, having some teams that are so far, not even off the pace, but just aren't at
[26:14.760 -> 26:19.920] the front very often, letting the rookies have a chance to just learn to deal with team
[26:19.920 -> 26:29.120] pressures and raise pressures before they're stuck up at the front and everything they do is scrutinized and talked about 24-7. Kyle, you messaged me
[26:29.120 -> 26:33.080] earlier and I think this is, you know, along the same lines. You said F1 could
[26:33.080 -> 26:37.720] learn from MotoGP in regards to support classes and then also track limits. So
[26:37.720 -> 26:40.920] start with what they do with support classes and then we can go to track
[26:40.920 -> 26:44.760] limits. Yeah, and it kind of feeds into my point of Formula 2 and Formula 3. So I
[26:44.760 -> 26:47.840] love what the MotoGP World Championship does with its support classes.
[26:47.840 -> 26:53.760] They are revered world championships in their own right. So you've got Moto3 and Moto2. When they
[26:53.760 -> 26:58.960] get promoted up to the main class they are they're referred to as world champions. Whereas F2 and F3
[26:58.960 -> 27:03.440] is a bit of an afterthought. It doesn't really get the coverage and it's not really that revered.
[27:03.440 -> 27:09.160] The format's different. So basically MotoGP, these are the championships, follow them around almost every round and it's a full day.
[27:09.280 -> 27:11.600] You've watched them, you don't think of them as support classes.
[27:11.600 -> 27:16.720] They are world championships in their own right and I'd love Formula One to treat their feeder series the same.
[27:16.720 -> 27:20.920] So everyone be much more invested into it and you followed these drivers through F3.
[27:20.920 -> 27:25.000] So that's why I'm investing a load of riders in MotoGP, because I've seen them come through the ranks.
[27:25.000 -> 27:26.280] And it's amazing watching them battle.
[27:26.280 -> 27:28.040] So I'd love Formula 1 to do the same,
[27:28.040 -> 27:29.960] because I do think they don't pay enough attention
[27:29.960 -> 27:30.840] to the feeder series.
[27:30.840 -> 27:33.520] So MotoGP basically do what I was calling for F1
[27:33.520 -> 27:36.000] to do earlier in the season, which is have this kind of
[27:36.000 -> 27:39.640] Formula 1.5, and almost just like a second tier, like you do.
[27:39.640 -> 27:41.360] So like the championship in England
[27:41.360 -> 27:43.000] is the second tier of football.
[27:43.000 -> 27:44.760] And it's essentially the same game,
[27:44.760 -> 27:50.160] but the stands will be smaller. Not all the pitch sizes will be as big, and that's... people don't
[27:50.160 -> 27:54.720] get that. In soccer, sometimes you get just a tiny pitch and sometimes it's a huge pitch which can
[27:54.720 -> 27:59.520] change the style of play. Colchester United in the 90s didn't have wingers because our pitch wasn't
[27:59.520 -> 28:06.560] really wide enough to justify them. So yeah, so like the sport can be essentially the same,
[28:06.560 -> 28:12.960] but allow for this infrastructure. And with the popularity of F1 growing and actually feeding the
[28:12.960 -> 28:18.880] popularity of all motorsport, particularly single seater, maybe now there is, you know, there is the
[28:20.320 -> 28:26.200] depth of teams and drivers and support that people would want to cheer on a Formula B.
[28:26.200 -> 28:28.680] Okay, right, track limits, Kyle.
[28:28.680 -> 28:31.180] What can we learn from MotoGP?
[28:31.180 -> 28:33.120] And also, yeah, so track limits are kind of rolled in
[28:33.120 -> 28:33.940] with another one,
[28:33.940 -> 28:35.520] and that's general race direction and procedures.
[28:35.520 -> 28:38.200] So for MotoGP, we have a big problem in Formula 1
[28:38.200 -> 28:41.120] with track limits, and people, you know,
[28:41.120 -> 28:42.920] sort of always moaning and there's inconsistency.
[28:42.920 -> 28:45.920] With MotoGP, they're very draconian with it.
[28:45.920 -> 28:47.640] They're like, there is a green paint beyond the curb.
[28:47.640 -> 28:49.680] Your tire hits that green paint, you get a warning.
[28:49.680 -> 28:52.000] You get three warnings and then you get a penalty.
[28:52.000 -> 28:53.560] We have actually seen people have race wins
[28:53.560 -> 28:55.440] taken off of them on the final lap
[28:55.440 -> 28:56.600] because they've touched the green line
[28:56.600 -> 28:58.040] on their final warning.
[28:58.040 -> 29:00.040] And, but that is the same for everybody.
[29:00.040 -> 29:01.640] At every track, it is the same
[29:01.640 -> 29:03.160] and there is no arguments about it.
[29:03.160 -> 29:04.440] It is black and white.
[29:04.440 -> 29:05.800] And there's never any of this kerfuffle.
[29:06.080 -> 29:09.000] And it's the same thing with getting the race started after there's been a
[29:09.000 -> 29:12.800] red flag or dodgy weather, they have something called a quick start procedure
[29:12.800 -> 29:14.000] that everyone knows what it is.
[29:14.300 -> 29:16.040] Like pit lanes open for two minutes.
[29:16.040 -> 29:18.180] You go out for a sighting that five minutes, then you're on your
[29:18.180 -> 29:19.440] warmup lap and you get racing.
[29:19.440 -> 29:23.360] So they're super dynamic and flexible, but it's legislated for in the regulations.
[29:23.400 -> 29:24.700] All the teams know the score.
[29:24.900 -> 29:27.520] So when the race director says, okay, there's a gap in the weather, quick
[29:27.520 -> 29:30.840] start procedure initiated, everyone knows what they got to do. And the race will be
[29:30.840 -> 29:34.920] going in 15 minutes time. Whereas Formula One is a bit, you know, it's very sort of
[29:34.920 -> 29:39.020] dinosaur-ish. They have to go through the motions and it takes them absolutely ages
[29:39.020 -> 29:44.120] to get started. But MotoGP have this covered in regulations already. So this is what I'd
[29:44.120 -> 29:45.400] like to see Formula 1 do.
[29:45.400 -> 29:47.200] So we've got a couple of points there, Matt.
[29:47.200 -> 29:48.600] We'll start with the track limits,
[29:48.600 -> 29:51.400] but I definitely want to go to the safety car restart
[29:51.400 -> 29:53.800] procedures because I thought it drove me mad in F1.
[29:53.800 -> 29:57.480] But whoa, that is the one thing that the Le Mans 24
[29:57.480 -> 29:58.720] did not get right.
[29:58.720 -> 30:02.640] I watched, I think, a 70-minute long safety car at one point.
[30:02.640 -> 30:04.760] I just kept nudging Brad going, thanks for inviting
[30:04.760 -> 30:06.360] me to watch the race cars.
[30:06.360 -> 30:10.880] This is great Brad, but track limits Matt. We could be stricter in F1.
[30:11.360 -> 30:17.920] Snipers, that's what I said. Snipers for MotoGP. They have snipers. No one violates the track limits. It's easy.
[30:18.680 -> 30:22.560] But I want to talk about, like you want to talk about safety cars.
[30:22.560 -> 30:25.240] I'm actually going to disagree with you.
[30:25.240 -> 30:29.960] Because practically speaking, what they were trying to do with the safety cars in Le Mans
[30:29.960 -> 30:37.280] was keep the class racing from being too artificially affected.
[30:37.280 -> 30:43.700] And if you've listened to me rant about safety cars in Formula One, you know that I am no
[30:43.700 -> 30:45.520] longer a fan of them being
[30:45.520 -> 30:49.960] able to swap on different compound tires and satisfy the
[30:49.960 -> 30:54.760] regulations during a red flag period. And so right off the
[30:54.760 -> 30:59.760] bat, I think, yeah, maybe it didn't work out as seamlessly as
[31:00.040 -> 31:04.000] WECC had hoped. But there was a clear effort to do something
[31:04.000 -> 31:06.080] different that made the racing better.
[31:06.080 -> 31:10.560] And from that, I think Formula One could learn under the safety car and red flag.
[31:10.560 -> 31:19.120] — Okay, so, I agree with you. The new procedure was put in place to combat an existing issue.
[31:19.120 -> 31:27.200] What we did was make the whole package far worse because every now and again you're gonna
[31:27.200 -> 31:31.280] lose out because of a safety car. It's just gonna happen. That is what happens
[31:31.280 -> 31:39.840] in racing. For the sake of spending 25 minutes, we counted one, from incident
[31:39.840 -> 31:45.600] cleared, let's get the restart procedure underway, to safety cars in, we're going racing again,
[31:45.600 -> 31:51.840] 25 minutes. Abhorrent. To the point where they just gave up on the safety cars and covered
[31:51.840 -> 31:56.120] everything under slow zones. Yeah, and actually the slow zones worked well. So let's bring that
[31:56.120 -> 32:03.080] into into Formula One. It's really frustrating when the incident is cleared, or it's clear that
[32:03.080 -> 32:07.920] you no longer need the safety car, and in what is only two hours, they suddenly go,
[32:07.920 -> 32:10.240] okay, no, send them around again, no, send them around again.
[32:10.240 -> 32:12.560] Suddenly, you've lost, like, big chunks.
[32:12.560 -> 32:15.840] And then they do this whole, you know, unlapping of the cars.
[32:15.840 -> 32:19.600] So basically, is there a better solution than safety cars?
[32:19.600 -> 32:21.920] Because Le Mans kind of learned on the fly, like,
[32:21.920 -> 32:23.440] ah, we don't need this.
[32:23.440 -> 32:25.280] No, so I think slow zones are
[32:25.280 -> 32:30.400] a really good way to do it. Explain what they are. So slow zones at Le Mans, there are nine
[32:31.280 -> 32:37.920] called zones around the track and basically you can activate say slow zone one if there's an
[32:37.920 -> 32:43.440] incident in that part of the track. When you enter that zone you're on the limiter 50kph or whatever
[32:43.440 -> 32:45.200] it is until you're out of that zone then you're back the limiter, 50k PH or whatever it is, until you're out of
[32:45.200 -> 32:49.960] that zone and you're back up to racing speed again without any need for a safety car. So
[32:49.960 -> 32:54.000] it's a bit like, you know, having the double waved yellow where you're supposed to slow
[32:54.000 -> 33:00.320] down and be prepared to stop, but you actually have a minimum or maximum speed, sorry, that
[33:00.320 -> 33:07.200] you're supposed to hit. Maybe it doesn't work so well on smaller tracks like what Formula 1
[33:07.200 -> 33:11.280] races on compared to Le Mans, which is 13 kilometers as opposed to the usual
[33:11.280 -> 33:19.360] five that we see for a Grand Prix circuit. But I do think that we can speed up the safety car
[33:19.360 -> 33:27.800] procedure by getting rid of this ridiculous lapped cars unlapping themselves. I think even on a short track map, the slow zones would work.
[33:27.800 -> 33:31.560] You obviously you need it kind of, you know, from apex to apex,
[33:31.560 -> 33:35.080] you know, you can and you can you can have any number of apex to apex
[33:35.080 -> 33:36.240] as being a slow zone.
[33:36.240 -> 33:38.760] Big flashing light comes up, you have to hit the limiter.
[33:38.960 -> 33:43.160] And that kind of gets rid of all arguments of, you know, deltas.
[33:43.160 -> 33:45.200] Because with the VSC, it's
[33:45.200 -> 33:49.160] up to them to kind of hit the deltas and it doesn't always seem to be fair. But, you know,
[33:49.160 -> 33:54.240] here's a zone. From turn two to turn seven now, you're on the pit limiter.
[33:54.240 -> 34:02.120] Well, yeah, I mean, there are usually 20 to 30 mini sectors, marshalling sectors, in a
[34:02.120 -> 34:05.720] Formula One race. You could go by the big sector,
[34:05.720 -> 34:09.400] sector one, sector two, sector three, it doesn't really matter. It'll if it
[34:09.400 -> 34:14.160] potentially affects the running when you lift it to some extent. Some gaps will
[34:14.160 -> 34:19.000] close, others won't, but it solves the problem of the lapped cars because maybe
[34:19.000 -> 34:24.040] I'm the only one here who remembers when they used to not unlap the cars and then
[34:24.040 -> 34:25.120] it was such a big deal that they decided to unlap the cars, and then it was such a big deal that they
[34:25.120 -> 34:29.920] decided to unlap the cars. And now everybody gets angry about the unlapped cars. I think there are
[34:29.920 -> 34:36.480] more efficient ways to deal with the lapped cars than the current procedure. But again, we have,
[34:37.200 -> 34:42.720] despite the execution not being what they had hoped, we have the very clear example of,
[34:42.720 -> 34:50.000] let's try something with the stewarding and with the safety car to make it work better for the racing.
[34:50.000 -> 34:54.000] And Formula 1 seems to be very resistant to anything.
[34:54.000 -> 35:03.000] The lapped cars thing on Safety Car Restart was such a non-issue that we did not need to change the rule.
[35:03.000 -> 35:06.840] Because if there were no safety car, you were gonna have to pass that car anyway.
[35:06.840 -> 35:08.540] You were gonna have to lap that car anyway.
[35:08.540 -> 35:11.400] So why, why do you get a free pass?
[35:11.400 -> 35:12.240] Kyle.
[35:12.240 -> 35:14.780] I think they're just trying to, you know,
[35:14.780 -> 35:16.300] one, they're trying to mitigate against luck,
[35:16.300 -> 35:18.020] which you can never take out of the equation.
[35:18.020 -> 35:20.040] They had the awful rule where they closed the pit lane
[35:20.040 -> 35:21.960] and it was in the refueling era, I believe as well.
[35:21.960 -> 35:23.800] And you actually have people running out of fuel,
[35:23.800 -> 35:24.920] which is absolutely ridiculous.
[35:24.920 -> 35:28.280] And then, yeah, we did have a few occasions where there was lap cars in between the
[35:28.280 -> 35:32.520] leaders and by the time they'd shuffled through the lap cars, the chance of the
[35:32.520 -> 35:33.200] battle was gone.
[35:33.200 -> 35:34.280] So that's why they're trying to do it.
[35:34.280 -> 35:35.480] But yeah, they're doing it badly.
[35:35.480 -> 35:39.800] They should make them drop to the back of the pack rather than go round at the front
[35:39.800 -> 35:41.080] and then just sort their laps out.
[35:41.080 -> 35:44.240] So I don't know how that works out, but yeah, they're trying to mitigate luck, but
[35:44.240 -> 35:47.760] it doesn't really work. Sometimes people just get lucky and unlucky, don't they? I mean,
[35:48.320 -> 35:54.400] let's just leave it be, in my opinion. Well, here's a simple suggestion. Drivers on the lead
[35:54.400 -> 36:00.480] lap follow the safety car into the pits. When it comes in and the lap cars take off at race pace,
[36:01.040 -> 36:07.040] you come out of the pits, and then you go and the race restarts. And however far they got is however far they got.
[36:07.040 -> 36:10.400] You don't spend three or four laps waiting for every lapped driver to get.
[36:10.920 -> 36:13.720] To, to catch up or just leave them there.
[36:14.400 -> 36:15.600] Just leave them there.
[36:15.800 -> 36:22.300] This is so formula one to just overthink this issue is what formerly used to do all
[36:22.300 -> 36:30.000] the time where we had a problem that had a simple solution, but we came up with an overly complicated solution, and then that created further problems,
[36:30.000 -> 36:34.480] so we're going to come up with an overly complicated solution for our overly complicated solution.
[36:35.040 -> 36:40.640] Well, we do love overly complicated solutions, but I still think the largest lesson here to take
[36:41.200 -> 36:46.720] is that Formula One has become entrenched in not changing these things, seeking
[36:46.720 -> 36:51.560] out better racing, and I think they need to be a little bit more flexible.
[36:51.560 -> 36:56.360] We have, for example, the red flag rule from IndyCar in qualifying.
[36:56.360 -> 36:59.760] That would be an excellent thing for Formula One to institute.
[36:59.760 -> 37:05.440] We could let you change tire compounds, but only to the same compound under red flags so
[37:05.440 -> 37:11.240] we don't have people ruining you know 90-minute long strategy battles just
[37:11.240 -> 37:15.880] because someone drove into a wall. There's a lot that could be done or at
[37:15.880 -> 37:21.840] least experimented with on a race on a race by race basis to improve the show
[37:21.840 -> 37:25.400] and improve the racing and I think what I take away from WEC is,
[37:25.400 -> 37:27.480] yeah, they try these experiments,
[37:27.480 -> 37:29.700] and yeah, they have really good racing too.
[37:29.700 -> 37:31.500] Let's cover some of the news.
[37:31.500 -> 37:35.360] Big dirty news.
[37:35.360 -> 37:40.360] Okay, where do you want to kick off, Matt?
[37:42.840 -> 37:45.040] I know there's a juicy tyre segment in there,
[37:45.040 -> 37:51.520] I can see you jumping at the bit for it, but I think one of the biggest unexpected things
[37:51.520 -> 37:57.760] was how far off Aston Martin looked in Barcelona. And yes, we know that there was a bit of a
[37:57.760 -> 38:02.960] problem with Alonso's floor, but Alonso has come back and said, right, well in Canada
[38:02.960 -> 38:09.360] we're going to crush our enemies, we're going to hear the lamentations of their engineers and set fire to the whole paddock.
[38:09.360 -> 38:12.240] So he sounds bullish. Will it happen?
[38:12.240 -> 38:18.480] Well, this to me is the most interesting story, because we saw Mercedes with the big upgrade.
[38:18.480 -> 38:23.040] We saw Ferrari with the big upgrade, and we've seen Aston have some big upgrades,
[38:23.040 -> 38:33.680] but their biggest upgrade, a new floor is expected to come in Canada. So it may very well be that aside from Alonzo's
[38:33.680 -> 38:37.840] unusual performance, because honestly, he usually waits till the third qualifying session
[38:37.840 -> 38:41.680] to wreck his car. And then he can just say he was on his best lap and it was going to
[38:41.680 -> 38:45.080] be the best lap in the world ever and no one can argue.
[38:45.080 -> 38:48.880] And instead he did it in the first qualifying session, which kind of messed up the results
[38:48.880 -> 38:51.520] a little bit.
[38:51.520 -> 38:55.800] But the thing is, they're going to show up at this new floor, but one, are they going
[38:55.800 -> 39:00.040] to be able to optimize it and immediately be on pace?
[39:00.040 -> 39:07.160] And if not, is this the beginning of the edge of Lawrence Stroll's money and its ability
[39:07.160 -> 39:08.960] to affect the running order?
[39:08.960 -> 39:10.280] Yeah, this is the question.
[39:10.280 -> 39:13.080] When we all came out from winter testing,
[39:13.080 -> 39:15.360] was that Aston looked quick, but none of us really believe it.
[39:15.360 -> 39:16.400] And then you see it the first race,
[39:16.400 -> 39:18.580] and oh, well, they are quick, but surely they're not
[39:18.580 -> 39:20.520] going to keep up the development curve
[39:20.520 -> 39:21.960] and still be the second best car.
[39:21.960 -> 39:23.640] So this is going to be crucial to see.
[39:23.640 -> 39:29.600] But also, a bit like Mercedes bringing theirs at Monaco, Canada's quite a unique track. There aren't really any fast
[39:29.600 -> 39:34.480] corners at all. It's all about slow mechanical grip and how your car bounces over the curbs.
[39:34.480 -> 39:38.800] Now, if they have a new floor, this could be crucial. One of their drivers, one of them might
[39:38.800 -> 39:43.680] be a bit crashy, you don't know. Like if you bounce over a curb on one of these huge chicanes
[39:43.680 -> 39:48.120] with the sausage curbs, you're going to wreck that floor very, very quickly. So I would imagine they'll both
[39:48.120 -> 39:54.360] have very strict instructions on Friday practice to take it very, very easy and no risks. But
[39:54.360 -> 39:59.000] we're not going to see or know how Aston is really going to do until we get on a more
[39:59.000 -> 40:01.760] representative track again, sort of inverted the commas.
[40:01.760 -> 40:09.920] Okay, talk to me, Kyle, educate me a little bit. So, why isn't Canada specific, particularly representative, and why was Barcelona?
[40:09.920 -> 40:14.640] Well, Barcelona's Formula One mainly, predominantly, is all about sort of aero. That's the main
[40:14.640 -> 40:20.160] defining factor of performance, and Barcelona has lots of medium high speed corners, and it's
[40:20.160 -> 40:25.700] basically, if you were going to design a track to test aero performance, Barcelona would be it. Absolutely perfect.
[40:25.700 -> 40:29.520] Now, Canada is a load of massive blast straights
[40:29.520 -> 40:32.880] and very slow flip-flop chicanes bouncing over curbs.
[40:32.880 -> 40:35.560] So it's more mechanical grip rather than aero.
[40:35.560 -> 40:37.560] Of course, aero helps, but it's more mechanical grip.
[40:37.560 -> 40:40.040] So Barcelona, you'll hear the engineers say something
[40:40.040 -> 40:41.240] called front and rear limited.
[40:41.240 -> 40:42.880] So Barcelona's sort of front limited,
[40:42.880 -> 40:45.120] which is where you're limited by understeer.
[40:45.120 -> 40:48.260] Your front tires, your front left is screaming out enough.
[40:48.260 -> 40:50.440] Now in Canada, that's completely the opposite.
[40:50.440 -> 40:52.440] It's all about getting through these slow chicanes
[40:52.440 -> 40:54.600] and accelerating nice onto those big long straights.
[40:54.600 -> 40:57.160] So it's a rear limited track, so it's all about traction.
[40:57.160 -> 40:58.480] So it's completely different.
[40:58.480 -> 40:59.600] It's the same thing with Mercedes.
[40:59.600 -> 41:01.280] They might find themselves off the pace here
[41:01.280 -> 41:02.960] because it's a totally different track.
[41:02.960 -> 41:05.280] So for Aston to try to,
[41:11.920 -> 41:15.760] you know, try to evaluate their upgrades, then it's actually probably not the best track to do that, but they just want to get them on the car as quick as possible. But if they don't set the
[41:15.760 -> 41:20.160] world alight, I wouldn't lose all hope as an Aston fan because they may well be better once they get
[41:20.160 -> 41:26.280] into a more high aero track. And if I could just add to that a little bit, just based on what Mercedes has been saying
[41:26.280 -> 41:29.360] in terms of trying to limit expectations about them.
[41:29.360 -> 41:37.800] The other thing about Montreal is that it requires a very efficient aerodynamic package.
[41:37.800 -> 41:43.360] And Alpine has been Alpine, sorry, Alpine has been efficient, but Aston has been very
[41:43.360 -> 41:46.680] good with peak downforce, but they might
[41:46.680 -> 41:51.720] lose out on some of the straights in Montreal relative to some other cars.
[41:51.720 -> 41:57.680] So if we're talking about cars that could be in the mix, obviously Mercedes, Aston,
[41:57.680 -> 41:59.000] Ferrari might be there.
[41:59.000 -> 42:03.920] They've had very good low speed traction in the past and they've had very good acceleration
[42:03.920 -> 42:11.640] as well. And Alpine has been mentioned by Mercedes or Aston as moving into that
[42:11.640 -> 42:17.320] punch with their Monaco performance. So it's I can understand from Aston's
[42:17.320 -> 42:22.560] point of view why they might not want to completely commit to being back and
[42:22.560 -> 42:25.000] second-best at Canada,
[42:25.000 -> 42:28.000] because it's not a representative track in the way that,
[42:28.000 -> 42:30.000] as Kyle pointed out, Barcelona is.
[42:30.000 -> 42:33.000] And just to say, Matt, you're doing really well.
[42:33.000 -> 42:37.000] Don't worry about the extra beeping that seems to be going on in the background.
[42:37.000 -> 42:39.000] Obviously, in New York at the moment, visibility is low.
[42:39.000 -> 42:42.000] I think everyone's having to beep just to get around.
[42:42.000 -> 42:44.000] Just say, I'm here, I'm here in the orange dust.
[42:44.000 -> 42:45.120] You might be surprised. I actually run an AI on my computer, Everyone's having to beep just to get around. Just, I'm here, I'm here in the orange dust.
[42:45.120 -> 42:46.120] You might be surprised.
[42:46.120 -> 42:52.080] I actually run an AI on my computer and those are people cursing on the sidewalk being beeped
[42:52.080 -> 42:53.080] out.
[42:53.080 -> 42:54.080] I see.
[42:54.080 -> 42:55.080] Oh, that's good.
[42:55.080 -> 42:56.080] That's good.
[42:56.080 -> 42:58.800] And by the way, best of best of best of luck.
[42:58.800 -> 42:59.800] That's not right.
[42:59.800 -> 43:04.920] But hopefully that situation in New York resolves itself because it is wildfires from Canada.
[43:04.920 -> 43:09.520] And though it was being wide, widely reported that that might affect the Montreal Grand Prix,
[43:09.520 -> 43:13.360] I think now people are saying that that definitely won't affect the race.
[43:13.360 -> 43:19.960] Yeah, no, the weather system that's moving the smoke is avoiding that corner of the planet.
[43:19.960 -> 43:24.480] Although, you know, I will say as bad as it was here, it's obviously much worse where
[43:24.480 -> 43:27.320] the wildfires actually are in Canada.
[43:27.320 -> 43:31.840] See, this is Formula One can be so frustrating when we talk about these non representative
[43:31.840 -> 43:32.840] tracks.
[43:32.840 -> 43:36.440] And now that we've kind of got the street circuit section mostly out of the way at the
[43:36.440 -> 43:40.560] beginning of the race, we can see that we're going to into the European season with more
[43:40.560 -> 43:41.560] normal tracks.
[43:41.560 -> 43:48.080] But then we've got Montreal here with a different set of characteristics and requirements. That's kind of the beauty of Formula One though, where
[43:48.080 -> 43:54.960] every single match, every single contest is in a completely different sphere. So we have to be
[43:54.960 -> 43:59.280] patient when we're making predictions, and I know Mercedes fans are really keen to go, this is it,
[43:59.280 -> 44:07.440] let's go Mercedes now from here, from here to Abu Dhabi. It's going to be 17 cup finals to win the championship.
[44:07.440 -> 44:13.360] But Canada is going to frustrate a lot of teams and frustrate a lot of the upgrades. So enjoy
[44:13.360 -> 44:18.480] Montreal for what it is, but Carl's just painted a great picture of why we shouldn't draw too many
[44:18.480 -> 44:22.960] conclusions about the upgrade battle, specifically from the Canadian Grand Prix. Chris.
[44:24.160 -> 44:26.320] Yeah, I mean, just picking up on that comment
[44:26.320 -> 44:30.720] about the first part of the season is full of so many different, well it used to be, full of so
[44:30.720 -> 44:36.160] many different types of circuit and I think that's what's really enjoyable. I think we lost that a
[44:36.160 -> 44:40.800] little bit but the fact that you know a couple of years ago the first six or seven races were held
[44:40.800 -> 44:48.600] on completely different types of circuit which meant that no one team really held a big advantage, really.
[44:48.600 -> 44:50.560] And yeah, it's a shame we're losing that.
[44:50.560 -> 44:55.160] But Canada, it's one of my favorite tracks, it's bumpy, it's difficult, very challenging,
[44:55.160 -> 45:01.920] lots of nice long straights that you have to balance out the aero, the drag on against
[45:01.920 -> 45:05.080] the very tight chicanes.
[45:06.200 -> 45:08.800] It's a good challenge. And you tend to see drivers kind of pushing the limits through there with
[45:08.800 -> 45:10.960] lots of nice walls to catch them out.
[45:11.960 -> 45:12.480] Well, yeah.
[45:12.480 -> 45:17.360] And this is, this can be a track that teams that are limited in resource or
[45:17.360 -> 45:20.760] understanding might target as an opportunity.
[45:20.760 -> 45:25.440] If I'm Williams, I have decent low speed traction and really slippery car,
[45:25.440 -> 45:30.720] I might be thinking, oh, I might sneak another point here. Whereas teams that have gone for
[45:30.720 -> 45:37.200] maximum downforce and or are peaky or not as compliant because it's bumpy there, they might
[45:37.200 -> 45:41.840] be saying, well, we'll try and extract what we can, but we're not going to get, we're not going
[45:41.840 -> 45:47.000] to get too crazy. I mean, for Mercedes, I've seen they've tested a medium and high-speed rear wing.
[45:47.000 -> 45:51.200] I don't know that they have a medium-lower downforce wing,
[45:51.200 -> 45:54.500] which you might want to use at Canada.
[45:54.500 -> 45:56.300] By the way, the chat room was just saying
[45:56.300 -> 45:58.000] that it sounded harsh when I said
[45:58.000 -> 45:59.700] best of luck to people in New York.
[45:59.700 -> 46:00.700] It wasn't like that.
[46:00.700 -> 46:02.400] I wasn't saying, like, hope you make it.
[46:02.400 -> 46:05.140] I was just, you know, sympathizing with the situation.
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[47:15.760 -> 47:20.160] Yeah, so for Mercedes in Canada, and I know this has spoken about on the show last week, and yeah, they they went really well at
[47:20.160 -> 47:22.360] Barcelona sort of last year and then struggled in Canada. So
[47:22.360 -> 47:24.680] they might be struggling again. And what's the one thing that
[47:24.680 -> 47:27.120] Mercedes have really been struggling with? And that's the ride and
[47:27.120 -> 47:31.920] compliance over curbs. And Canada is all about that. So there might be a turd and a hamper for
[47:31.920 -> 47:37.120] them yet on this upgrade package that you don't actually know if it's going to be good. But
[47:38.080 -> 47:43.120] that's why they're keeping their sort of hopes in check now. I remember last year, it was so much
[47:43.120 -> 47:47.640] hope and they were so sort of happy. And then they fell on their face quite spectacularly with it.
[47:47.640 -> 47:50.080] So I think they're all quite a bit more reserved
[47:50.080 -> 47:50.840] with this preset.
[47:50.840 -> 47:53.720] But going with the wings, the high and low downforce wings,
[47:53.720 -> 47:56.080] we saw them last year literally cutting bits out
[47:56.080 -> 47:58.600] of some of the wings to go a bit more low drag.
[47:58.600 -> 48:00.600] And I think with now the side pods on,
[48:00.600 -> 48:01.760] they're a bit less draggy.
[48:01.760 -> 48:03.520] So Mercedes could be better.
[48:03.520 -> 48:08.320] Last year, they had a parachute out the back of the car. And Canada is all about low drag, mechanical grip. So
[48:08.320 -> 48:12.320] we, yeah, we might well see a Williams up in the top 10. I really wouldn't be surprised,
[48:12.320 -> 48:15.880] but Mercedes might be good, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're struggling again.
[48:15.880 -> 48:22.480] Yeah. And I think that encapsulates sort of some of what we look forward to, the challenges
[48:22.480 -> 48:26.300] of these different circuits. And this is where you have to mark out Red Bull
[48:26.300 -> 48:29.380] as having from the off designed a car that
[48:29.380 -> 48:32.340] was competitive at all different types of circuits.
[48:32.340 -> 48:35.380] It has a very wide operating window
[48:35.380 -> 48:37.140] compared to all of their competitors.
[48:37.140 -> 48:41.100] And it's been a very big advantage for them
[48:41.100 -> 48:43.540] throughout the last two seasons, along with obviously
[48:43.540 -> 48:45.040] having Max driving for them. Doesn't really hurt, if you know what I mean. with obviously having backs driving for them
[48:45.040 -> 48:47.800] doesn't really hurt if you know what I mean.
[48:47.800 -> 48:53.700] And speaking of people driving for them, has anyone got any sniff of contract negotiations?
[48:53.700 -> 48:58.360] Hamilton was meant to be having those this week. Chris, you've got spiders everywhere.
[48:58.360 -> 49:00.960] Have your crows been whispering?
[49:00.960 -> 49:01.960] It's in the works.
[49:01.960 -> 49:09.000] It's in the works. No one's doubting though, it are they that it's going to be Lewis Hamilton and George Russell for the next three seasons basically?
[49:09.000 -> 49:14.000] Or two? You'll bet Hamilton will sign a two-year deal won't you?
[49:14.000 -> 49:25.040] I would say yeah a couple of years probably nothing long term because you know I've said this before I think Lewis is entering the latter stages of his Formula One career.
[49:25.040 -> 49:27.040] And I know I can see Spanners wincing.
[49:27.040 -> 49:30.040] We're not ready.
[49:30.040 -> 49:35.520] I think it's not a problem, but it's something that Formula One do need to look at because
[49:35.520 -> 49:42.520] they have dined out on Lewis Hamilton's popularity. And Lewis Hamilton has at times been popular
[49:42.520 -> 49:49.880] around the world and had a profile around the world that F1 drivers haven't necessarily had outside of that F1 bubble.
[49:49.880 -> 49:54.720] And I think when you look at some of the media outlets and who they favour and who they say
[49:54.720 -> 50:01.920] that are popular, and when you see the success of some fan bases of really showing how big
[50:01.920 -> 50:06.600] they are, if you have seen an old film called The Three Amigos,
[50:06.600 -> 50:11.040] where they make the three defending soldiers look like a hundred defending soldiers as
[50:11.040 -> 50:15.820] they defend their small town, then that's what a lot of the fan bases have done. I think
[50:15.820 -> 50:21.760] the Hamilton fan base is quietly, and I know not all the Hamilton fan base is quiet, but
[50:21.760 -> 50:26.480] it is quietly, I think, a lot bigger than it comes across.
[50:26.480 -> 50:30.840] And Formula One must be thinking, Kyle, that, you know, we've got to look forward and go,
[50:30.840 -> 50:35.760] who's the next, who's the next big megastar that's going to have that kind of a following?
[50:35.760 -> 50:39.520] Well, that was, that's kind of half my point I was just about to make, you know, we're
[50:39.520 -> 50:44.120] talking about Hamilton re-signing. Now, when Kimi Raikkonen was hanging on for dear life
[50:44.120 -> 50:46.880] in Ferrari, just getting extra
[50:46.880 -> 50:51.640] contracts, there was Charles Leclerc waiting in the wings to get that drive. You know, when Bottas
[50:51.640 -> 50:55.560] was looking for an extension of Mercedes contract, Mercedes had George Russell waiting in the wings.
[50:55.560 -> 51:02.760] Who's waiting to take Lewis's drive? Where's the urgency for Mercedes or Lewis to retire? Like,
[51:02.760 -> 51:06.580] who would take it? If Lewis wasn't going to resign,
[51:06.580 -> 51:09.660] who is the next young hotshot you would put in a Mercedes
[51:09.660 -> 51:10.940] or who on the current grid, would you?
[51:10.940 -> 51:13.640] Because I don't know what to answer to that one.
[51:13.640 -> 51:15.520] I think actually Mercedes would be in,
[51:15.520 -> 51:18.600] if Hamilton just walked for next season,
[51:18.600 -> 51:20.220] I think there would be a big gap.
[51:20.220 -> 51:22.320] I don't think there is anyone ready to walk in.
[51:22.320 -> 51:24.740] I don't think Russell on overall race pace
[51:24.740 -> 51:26.800] is doing what Lewis Hamilton is doing.
[51:26.800 -> 51:30.600] And any driver that you pluck is going to be a risk.
[51:30.600 -> 51:39.600] We really don't know what Norris' out-and-out Sunday performance against the likes of Verstappen, Hamilton, Leclerc is. Chris?
[51:39.600 -> 51:47.360] I think if that Mercedes seat came available, there would be some brawl fight between Charles Leclerc and Lando Norris for that seat.
[51:47.360 -> 51:51.660] But a post-Lewis Hamilton Formula One
[51:51.660 -> 51:54.180] is a very interesting concept.
[51:54.180 -> 51:56.700] And of course, MotoGP had to deal
[51:56.700 -> 52:01.380] with Valentino Rossi retiring some years ago.
[52:01.380 -> 52:04.780] And he was MotoGP ever since it became
[52:08.640 -> 52:15.900] that brand of motorcycle racing. He was there from the very, very beginning. It just so happened that history had thrown up
[52:15.900 -> 52:26.760] an even greater motorcycle racer than Valentino Rossi to lead this new charge into a new era of top tier motorcycle racing.
[52:26.760 -> 52:30.640] And I think Max Verstappen is filling that role
[52:30.640 -> 52:35.120] a little bit as the one with the huge fan base coming.
[52:35.120 -> 52:38.460] And I think that unlike Lewis Hamilton,
[52:38.460 -> 52:39.920] who I think when he leaves Formula One,
[52:39.920 -> 52:44.040] he won't continue racing, he'll become a humanitarian
[52:44.040 -> 52:45.520] and go and clean up some
[52:45.520 -> 52:49.520] beaches drop a fire album and launch a clothing line whereas Max Verstappen I
[52:49.520 -> 52:52.920] think would happily leave Formula One after winning a few World
[52:52.920 -> 52:56.880] Championships and go and try his hand at Le Mans or IndyCar or the Dakar or God
[52:56.880 -> 53:01.360] knows what. Can I upset some people? This is it I've come on the stick for
[53:01.360 -> 53:09.080] from not being like praising Verstappen enough so this isn't gonna help all was saying was, you know, he's in a rocket ship of a car this season,
[53:09.080 -> 53:13.280] he's doing the job, but it's hard to pick apart how well he's doing. We said exactly
[53:13.280 -> 53:16.960] the same thing about Lewis Hamilton when he was in that period of domination. And in fact,
[53:16.960 -> 53:21.360] we got criticised for not talking about him, like, at all in some episodes where he'd won,
[53:21.360 -> 53:27.280] because there was no story to tell. He was kind of a shoo-in. But I don't think Verstappen has the broad,
[53:27.280 -> 53:30.360] overall, super-style appeal of Lewis Hamilton.
[53:30.360 -> 53:33.280] So I think it might take more than one driver
[53:33.280 -> 53:35.080] to replace that.
[53:35.080 -> 53:38.040] But if Verstappen was to walk away from F1 tomorrow,
[53:38.040 -> 53:39.680] yes, you would lose a slice.
[53:39.680 -> 53:42.640] You would lose a slice of F1 fans who would just go,
[53:42.640 -> 53:44.360] oh, Verstappen's not here anymore,
[53:44.360 -> 53:45.280] but I'm not interested.
[53:45.280 -> 53:50.860] It happened with Schumacher, it happened with the Germans, and if Lewis Hamilton just walks
[53:50.860 -> 53:56.320] away tomorrow, that slice is bigger. Like it's a huge dump of fans will go, ah, maybe
[53:56.320 -> 53:57.800] I'm not into it right now.
[53:57.800 -> 54:02.960] I agree, but Lewis Hamilton also wasn't the superstar he is after two world titles, or
[54:02.960 -> 54:06.320] even the third. it was not until I
[54:06.320 -> 54:13.040] think, I think around the fifth world title, people stood up and noticed and he started to
[54:13.040 -> 54:17.680] become the global phenomenon that he now is. So Verstappen's got time is what you're saying to
[54:17.680 -> 54:26.080] get to that level. And let's also correlate that with the overall size of the Formula One audience over the years as well.
[54:26.080 -> 54:34.640] Hamilton was a world champion early on in his career. Mercedes hired him as a world champion.
[54:34.640 -> 54:38.160] Let's not forget they hired him as a world champion. So if we're talking about who's
[54:38.160 -> 54:42.720] going to replace him, they're not going to find some young hotshot to replace him
[54:42.720 -> 54:48.280] because you can't. He spent years building that audience, bringing new people into the sport.
[54:48.800 -> 54:52.600] And, um, Max has obviously brought new people into the sport as well.
[54:52.600 -> 54:58.400] But I agree with you from a global point of view, I don't see anyone, any single
[54:58.400 -> 55:02.000] person walking into that role and replacing it.
[55:02.560 -> 55:05.840] So if Daniel Ricardo's career had gone better, if he'd have been able
[55:05.840 -> 55:10.160] to oust Verstappen and he'd been in Verstappen's place now, I don't think that would happen
[55:10.160 -> 55:14.640] because Verstappen's a much better driver, I think it seems obvious, than Daniel Ricardo,
[55:14.640 -> 55:20.240] he had the personality charisma and he could have had that huge global appeal. I think part of the
[55:20.240 -> 55:28.360] reason Verstappen doesn't have it at the moment is because he doesn't go and seek it, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not Verstappen's job. You know,
[55:28.360 -> 55:33.520] he's a sportsman. It's not his job to be the marketing front of Formula One. I don't know
[55:33.520 -> 55:39.740] why I'm trying to soft pedal this. Spanners at mistapex.net. Just get it out of your system.
[55:39.740 -> 55:44.720] Go and send me what you need to send me. But I stand by my point and I hope it's not coming
[55:44.720 -> 55:45.280] across as
[55:45.280 -> 55:50.560] Verstappen hate. If anything over the past few episodes we've been talking about like how lovely
[55:50.560 -> 55:56.560] he seems on his live streams and he's nice so I do try to be objective and that's not going to stop
[55:56.560 -> 56:07.840] any emails. Right we were told in the live chat to focus on the post AlAlonso era first. But Alonso again, he's a very divisive character.
[56:07.840 -> 56:13.760] He has people who really, really like him. But again, I'm not sure Alonso had the mass appeal
[56:13.760 -> 56:21.280] of a Hamilton or a Schumacher. No. He got Spain into Formula One again.
[56:22.960 -> 56:27.240] Barcelona used to be quite an empty Grand Prix and it used to be a good Grand Prix to go to because
[56:27.240 -> 56:32.040] it was quite quiet. But when Alonso mania sort of happened he got very, very, very
[56:32.040 -> 56:37.540] popular in Spain. Now I'm not sure Spain are quite behind Carlos Sainz as they
[56:37.540 -> 56:42.160] were Alonso. So if Alonso does retire then it might have the Vettel effect. You
[56:42.160 -> 56:47.560] know Vettel never really captured the German public's imagination. There was a Schumacher wave, Vettel, even though he had four world
[56:47.560 -> 56:51.160] championships, didn't really capture that. So I think we might be left in a similar sort
[56:51.160 -> 56:55.400] of, um, a similar situation with Alonso, but to be honest, Alonso has already gone away
[56:55.400 -> 57:00.200] and he's come back again. So we've kind of already sort of seen it and he did his donuts
[57:00.200 -> 57:05.240] and his farewell, remember, and he's come back again, a la Felipe Massa at Williams.
[57:05.240 -> 57:08.880] Although a slightly different sort of scenario. So I think we've already been through it and
[57:08.880 -> 57:13.920] I think Alonso will go, it'll be like a doff of the cap. I still think there'll be a lot
[57:13.920 -> 57:17.640] of sort of Spanish fan base watching, but I don't think we'll have quite the passion
[57:17.640 -> 57:21.200] behind Carlos Sainz. He doesn't have the capture the imagination.
[57:21.200 -> 57:25.840] I think if he could somehow oust Leclerc and mount a title
[57:25.840 -> 57:32.080] challenge, I do think Carlos Sainz has the overall kind of appeal and x-factor to be a global brand.
[57:32.080 -> 57:36.880] And I know, Matt, I know you're a big Carlos Sainz fan, but I wish I could remember who did
[57:36.880 -> 57:42.480] this thread. But there was a bit of a conspiracy theory that actually, if you look at the performances,
[57:42.480 -> 57:45.120] Ferrari are actually really trying to look after
[57:45.120 -> 57:50.960] Carlos Sainz. They're trying to make sure that Carlos Sainz has a car that he can drive and be
[57:50.960 -> 57:55.840] competitive in even to the detriment of the overall pace of the car. So I'm not buying into
[57:55.840 -> 58:03.280] that specific theory but Ferrari love Carlos Sainz and Carlos Sainz has a big following.
[58:03.280 -> 58:05.280] He's in a team with a driver that
[58:05.280 -> 58:10.720] perhaps has a different driving style. So Ferrari are in a probably a very similar situation to
[58:10.720 -> 58:16.080] Red Bull when they think about where to develop the car. It's just a bit more complicated because
[58:16.080 -> 58:19.280] the number one hasn't been quite as clearly defined at Ferrari.
[58:20.000 -> 58:25.440] But yeah, but the one thing I think Carlos lacks slightly is the wow factor in the driving.
[58:25.440 -> 58:29.680] Like Max has the wow factor in the driving, Lewis had it, Alonso has it in abundance.
[58:30.480 -> 58:34.000] What races do you remember Carlos Sainz when you think, yeah, wow, he really got that
[58:34.000 -> 58:37.920] butter scruff of the neck and went and got it? No, his Grand Prix win that he had was
[58:38.720 -> 58:42.480] because they stitched his teammate up essentially and he wobbled on and managed to sort of get it.
[58:42.480 -> 58:48.960] So I can't see these, I don't think Karl-Einstein, as much as I like him, as much as I don't think he has that
[58:48.960 -> 58:53.760] star X factor to get the public behind him. He kind of wobbles to good results. A bit
[58:53.760 -> 58:57.280] like me in sim racing. I'll work on wobbling through and get a result.
[58:57.280 -> 59:00.840] So Karl-Einstein didn't do anything. And that, I think that was the stop inventing race,
[59:00.840 -> 59:01.840] wasn't it?
[59:01.840 -> 59:04.000] Yeah, that was Silverstone stop inventing.
[59:04.000 -> 59:08.160] That Silverstone stop inventing. And then basically Leclerc got hung out to dry, didn't he, on his
[59:08.160 -> 59:12.960] tyres. They didn't pit him, they left him out on worn tyres and Sainz kind of almost won by default.
[59:12.960 -> 59:18.800] But even in that race, I feel like they were trying to hold him back a little bit. Like at the time,
[59:18.800 -> 59:23.200] I felt like they were trying to favour Leclerc, which is why I'm not buying into any of these,
[59:23.200 -> 59:28.480] you know, conspiracies, the theories that they're trying to promote Leclerc, which is why I'm not buying into any of these conspiracies that theories that they're trying to promote signs. But if Leclerc was to go, and they
[59:28.480 -> 59:33.520] were to switch and develop solely towards Carlos Sainz, I don't see why Carlos Sainz
[59:33.520 -> 59:37.840] can't be the driver to bring Ferrari forward and to be their lead driver.
[59:37.840 -> 59:44.040] I think the problem for Carlos here is that if you're talking about wheel-to-wheel racing,
[59:44.040 -> 59:46.700] you could say, oh, we've seen Leclerc fight Verstappen,
[59:46.700 -> 59:48.780] we've seen Hamilton fight Verstappen,
[59:48.780 -> 59:52.540] and it's always, always good ratings.
[59:52.540 -> 59:55.020] When we see Carlos do well,
[59:55.020 -> 59:59.740] it's always because he has out-fought his own team
[59:59.740 -> 01:00:03.420] and his teammate and the other drivers.
[01:00:03.420 -> 01:00:07.880] So yeah, I will give you, I think on outright pace, he lacks a little
[01:00:07.880 -> 01:00:09.440] bit compared to Leclerc.
[01:00:09.440 -> 01:00:13.920] You can see it in qualifying, especially, but when it comes to actually all that's
[01:00:13.920 -> 01:00:20.800] required to be a good racer, he makes up for it with his overall understanding of
[01:00:20.800 -> 01:00:23.440] racing strategy and decision-making.
[01:00:23.680 -> 01:00:25.480] So I think that makes him intriguing.
[01:00:25.840 -> 01:00:30.320] But to be a world champion, don't you need to be one of those drivers where you say, no,
[01:00:30.320 -> 01:00:34.160] they do have that outright pure raw speed.
[01:00:34.160 -> 01:00:38.680] So I'm trying to think back, what drivers from the last 20 years would you say have won a championship
[01:00:38.680 -> 01:00:44.800] but haven't been rated in that kind of overall Sunday raw pace? And all I can think of really is Button.
[01:00:42.800 -> 01:00:44.880] in that kind of overall Sunday raw pace. And all I can think of really is his button.
[01:00:45.320 -> 01:00:47.280] There may be where people, you know, he's a bit more,
[01:00:47.560 -> 01:00:50.600] well, they say he's more cerebral and an all around package
[01:00:50.600 -> 01:00:52.120] rather than that raw pace.
[01:00:52.120 -> 01:00:54.600] If you don't have that raw pace, Matt,
[01:00:54.600 -> 01:00:57.040] and that's what you said that so that's not me slating signs,
[01:00:57.520 -> 01:01:01.160] then you're you're up against it to be a title challenger.
[01:01:01.640 -> 01:01:04.080] Yeah. And I think you science himself would admit that, like,
[01:01:04.080 -> 01:01:05.760] I look at my teammates' telemetry,
[01:01:05.760 -> 01:01:07.880] I look at the data, and I learn from every race.
[01:01:07.880 -> 01:01:09.000] But I have two words for you.
[01:01:09.000 -> 01:01:10.000] Kiki Rosberg.
[01:01:10.000 -> 01:01:11.000] That was 1982.
[01:01:11.000 -> 01:01:14.560] Didn't he win just, like, one race that season?
[01:01:14.560 -> 01:01:15.560] Yeah.
[01:01:15.560 -> 01:01:16.880] And it was just consistent in points.
[01:01:16.880 -> 01:01:20.640] Jody Schechter also did this in Ferrari in 1970s... no, 70-something.
[01:01:20.640 -> 01:01:21.640] I said...
[01:01:21.640 -> 01:01:22.640] I can't remember.
[01:01:22.640 -> 01:01:25.840] I said 20... that was before you were born, Kyle. I did say
[01:01:25.840 -> 01:01:31.520] in the last like 20 years or so. Anyway, sorry, that diverted into a direction I wasn't anticipating
[01:01:31.520 -> 01:01:36.480] at all. So we have, should we do a, let's do a service to Matt. And I think Kyle will be
[01:01:37.120 -> 01:01:42.880] equally enthusiastic about this as well. We have a tyre bid from Bridgestone who have pitched to
[01:01:42.880 -> 01:01:49.760] take over exclusively from Pirelli, I understand, not a tyre war. Why would they want that and how would that
[01:01:49.760 -> 01:01:53.200] look? I know Matt will have a lot of things to say about it so let's kick off
[01:01:53.200 -> 01:01:57.800] with Kyle. Bridgestone to take over? Yes, no.
[01:01:57.800 -> 01:02:02.320] No, I don't want them to take over but the fact that there is a rumour going
[01:02:02.320 -> 01:02:05.880] around that they might, that they haven't confirmed themselves by the way, but there's a rumour going around that they might that they haven't confirmed themselves, by the
[01:02:05.880 -> 01:02:08.640] way, but there's a rumor going around that they might apply for
[01:02:08.640 -> 01:02:11.000] a tender is going to put a little bit of heat on Pirelli,
[01:02:11.000 -> 01:02:13.360] which I think is good because personally, I don't think
[01:02:13.360 -> 01:02:16.360] Pirelli have this. I know it's very hard for them, but I don't
[01:02:16.360 -> 01:02:19.200] think they've done the best job. They kind of got it right at
[01:02:19.200 -> 01:02:21.320] Barcelona, but I think they've been a bit too risk averse to
[01:02:21.320 -> 01:02:24.280] their tires. So the fact that there's another company around,
[01:02:24.440 -> 01:02:29.760] which could get their tender might put a little bit of heat on them because I don't think Bridgestone
[01:02:29.760 -> 01:02:35.680] are going to want to make tires that fall apart so much. But it's always nice. You'll get better
[01:02:35.680 -> 01:02:38.880] out of your suppliers if they know there's competition for their contract. And I think
[01:02:38.880 -> 01:02:43.120] the brief, the Pirelli, you know, for like two-stop racing, some multiple sort of races,
[01:02:43.120 -> 01:02:45.440] I think they've kind of strayed away from that a little bit.
[01:02:45.440 -> 01:02:47.600] So I'd like a little bit of pressure on them.
[01:02:49.560 -> 01:02:51.520] Yeah, I think the issue with Bridgestone
[01:02:51.520 -> 01:02:53.960] is anyone who remembers that era,
[01:02:53.960 -> 01:02:56.300] remembers that Bridgestone made essentially tires
[01:02:56.300 -> 01:02:58.200] that never wore and never degraded.
[01:02:58.200 -> 01:03:01.260] So once there was no more stopping for fuel,
[01:03:01.260 -> 01:03:03.780] you can just imagine what that would do to the racing
[01:03:03.780 -> 01:03:08.360] where already we're like, oh no, Pirelli's being conservative, there's a one-stopper
[01:03:08.360 -> 01:03:12.280] coming. So that would be the major concern. Yeah, and the difference for when
[01:03:12.280 -> 01:03:16.400] Bridgestone did it, and they were like a sole tire supplier, there was refueling
[01:03:16.400 -> 01:03:20.760] right up to 2010, and the final season of doing it, there was no refueling. So up
[01:03:20.760 -> 01:03:24.440] to 2010, you still have strategy variation because there was refueling. It
[01:03:24.440 -> 01:03:25.480] didn't matter if the tires were
[01:03:25.480 -> 01:03:28.840] granite. But now it's only a tire only when it changed in
[01:03:28.840 -> 01:03:31.800] 2010. And they banned refueling. The first half of the season had
[01:03:31.800 -> 01:03:34.640] a lot of one stop races until we kind of got to the Canadian
[01:03:34.640 -> 01:03:37.920] Grand Prix, which had just been resurfaced. Bridgestone got the
[01:03:37.920 -> 01:03:40.040] tire compounds a little bit wrong. And there was a multi
[01:03:40.040 -> 01:03:42.720] stop sort of chaos race. And that was the precursor really,
[01:03:42.920 -> 01:03:45.320] to the Pirelli era of, of
[01:03:45.320 -> 01:03:48.940] this is great. Let's have some tires that fall apart a little bit more. And Bridgestone
[01:03:48.940 -> 01:03:52.580] actually agreed during that, okay, we're going to put a bigger gap between our compounds
[01:03:52.580 -> 01:03:56.400] to make the racing a bit more exciting. And I think this is where this sort of theory
[01:03:56.400 -> 01:04:01.640] first come out. So Bridgestone was saved a little bit by that, but yeah, I agree. Bridgestone
[01:04:01.640 -> 01:04:09.280] would rather their tires. I mean, I remember Kobayashi, I think it was at Valencia, running the entire race on a set of hards and pitted on the penultimate
[01:04:09.280 -> 01:04:14.640] lap and put a set of softs on. So that shouldn't be a thing. So yeah, it'd be interesting to
[01:04:14.640 -> 01:04:16.960] see if they did get it, but I very much doubt they would.
[01:04:16.960 -> 01:04:26.080] Yeah, I remember Vettel the same year running softs through all the laps of Monza bar the last lap when he came in for the for the
[01:04:26.080 -> 01:04:30.920] hards. Bridgestone of course being the previous sole tyre supplier before
[01:04:30.920 -> 01:04:36.560] Pirelli came in in 2011 very much inspired by that race in Canada that you
[01:04:36.560 -> 01:04:41.600] mentioned there Kyle and of course the difference was Pirelli was briefed to
[01:04:41.600 -> 01:04:51.560] provide that kind of high deg tyre, whereas Bridgestone were obviously going for performance and life and perfect tyre, just like when they had Michelin in
[01:04:51.560 -> 01:04:55.400] the tyre war years as well.
[01:04:55.400 -> 01:05:01.200] I'm not convinced that Bridgestone would agree to make a high deg tyre in the same way that
[01:05:01.200 -> 01:05:07.760] Pirelli has agreed to do so. And it has to be that, otherwise we can kiss goodbye
[01:05:07.760 -> 01:05:09.980] to any kind of decent racing,
[01:05:09.980 -> 01:05:12.520] because then we will just go back to that 2010 era
[01:05:12.520 -> 01:05:15.260] where, although it was a great season,
[01:05:15.260 -> 01:05:17.240] we had five people going for the championship,
[01:05:17.240 -> 01:05:20.600] but the races themselves lacked a little something
[01:05:20.600 -> 01:05:22.560] in terms of the wheel-to-wheel combat
[01:05:22.560 -> 01:05:24.000] because the tires just held up
[01:05:24.000 -> 01:05:27.400] and of course we didn't have refueling that year as well.
[01:05:27.400 -> 01:05:33.280] And you said like it's not going to be a tire war, which is good because tire wars are ridiculously
[01:05:33.280 -> 01:05:39.920] expensive and each manufacturer would just pick a primary team and back that one in the
[01:05:39.920 -> 01:05:45.520] same way that Bridgestone would favor Ferrari, basically develop their tyres solely around
[01:05:45.520 -> 01:05:50.400] Michael Schumacher. Michelin obviously had worked very closely with Renault as well to fight for the
[01:05:50.400 -> 01:05:57.680] world championship and one will always dominate. So having a sole supplier is always beneficial.
[01:05:57.680 -> 01:06:04.000] Yeah, the one way a tyre war would work is if you then introduce the factor to force the teams to
[01:06:04.000 -> 01:06:05.680] pit, which the only way would be is
[01:06:05.680 -> 01:06:11.200] to reintroduce refueling and we end up back at square one essentially. So yeah, you either have
[01:06:11.200 -> 01:06:15.040] high deck tyres that give multi-stops and I think as Maria was saying in the Slack chat,
[01:06:15.040 -> 01:06:19.280] she doesn't understand the criticism against Pirelli and it's basically like the brief is to
[01:06:19.280 -> 01:06:23.840] try to have tyres that degrade and they can have multi-stops but I think they've been going a bit
[01:06:23.840 -> 01:06:28.560] too conservative so we're ending up back in the Bridgestone sort of era again of easy one stop shouldn't be a
[01:06:28.560 -> 01:06:32.080] thing. So that's where the criticism comes from. But the only way if there was a tyre war is you
[01:06:32.080 -> 01:06:34.400] have to have the variable factor and that will be refuelling.
[01:06:34.400 -> 01:06:40.320] Well, the nice thing about this for everybody is that there's no actual confirmation that Bridgestone
[01:06:40.320 -> 01:06:45.680] has even made a bid. It's just quote-unquote understood from quote-unquote
[01:06:45.680 -> 01:06:51.040] sources. So I sort of like Kyle's point that perhaps this is all just a big
[01:06:51.040 -> 01:06:56.480] psychological operation to put some pressure on Pirelli. And even if they did,
[01:06:56.480 -> 01:07:01.000] let's face it, Bridgestone own Firestone. Firestone supplies IndyCar. They don't
[01:07:01.000 -> 01:07:05.360] really need another single-seater series and they're stable
[01:07:05.360 -> 01:07:11.100] off tires that they produce. That said, the world has thrown up some interesting
[01:07:11.100 -> 01:07:15.960] things in the last 24 months so we'll just have to wait and see till June 16th
[01:07:15.960 -> 01:07:19.600] when we find out for reals who's on to the next step of this process.
[01:07:19.600 -> 01:07:25.000] I was about to say, yeah, Matt sort of did that for me there.
[01:07:25.000 -> 01:07:28.280] I pretty much, I think this might be a floated
[01:07:28.280 -> 01:07:31.560] or an inserted rumor maybe by the power that be.
[01:07:31.560 -> 01:07:32.400] It's quite beneficial.
[01:07:32.400 -> 01:07:33.640] Like when they were on about Formula One
[01:07:33.640 -> 01:07:35.480] might be bought by a consortium,
[01:07:35.480 -> 01:07:39.080] it's like, oh, why are you leaking these rumors out?
[01:07:39.080 -> 01:07:40.540] It might be beneficial for Formula One
[01:07:40.540 -> 01:07:41.720] for this rumor to be active,
[01:07:41.720 -> 01:07:44.640] even though Bridgetown themselves haven't really said much.
[01:07:44.640 -> 01:08:05.440] Thanks for pointing out, Kyle, as well, that Maria made that comment. for this rumour to be active, even go and consider supporting us at patreon.com
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[01:08:47.640 -> 01:08:51.240] do consider it patreon.com forward slash missed apex.
[01:08:51.240 -> 01:08:55.760] But I would like to talk in defense of Pirelli a little bit.
[01:08:55.760 -> 01:08:59.120] I imagine that Pirelli are living at the moment
[01:08:59.120 -> 01:09:02.740] in an atmosphere where they're told, don't wreck the races.
[01:09:02.740 -> 01:09:07.600] Don't ruin the races by your tyres exploding, don't be a factor
[01:09:07.600 -> 01:09:13.200] in making a debacle of Formula One, we don't want to see another Silverstone 2013.
[01:09:13.760 -> 01:09:19.360] And that must be part of the reason, Kyle, why they're going more conservative. The reason we
[01:09:19.360 -> 01:09:25.120] like having, say, two stops or three stops, and the reason why it makes it more interesting on camera
[01:09:25.120 -> 01:09:30.480] is primarily because it creates a tyre delta between the teams. So even though you've got
[01:09:30.480 -> 01:09:36.160] teams that have the same opportunities to run different tyres throughout the race, you will at
[01:09:36.160 -> 01:09:43.120] various points have a car that is on an old set of hards and then you'll have another car behind it
[01:09:43.120 -> 01:09:46.620] on a newer set of mediums and that creates a speed delta.
[01:09:46.620 -> 01:09:49.440] So their lap times are now a second and a half apart
[01:09:49.440 -> 01:09:50.580] or two seconds apart.
[01:09:50.580 -> 01:09:53.900] And on most tracks, Karl, I think you need a delta
[01:09:53.900 -> 01:09:55.740] of about two seconds to pass, don't you?
[01:09:55.740 -> 01:09:56.980] That's what they say.
[01:09:56.980 -> 01:09:59.740] So if you've got tyres on the same compound
[01:09:59.740 -> 01:10:02.580] for most of the race, you can't then complain
[01:10:02.580 -> 01:10:11.640] that they're not passing each other because in modern F1, the only surefire way we've had of having racing is to have, is to sort
[01:10:11.640 -> 01:10:17.440] of manipulate the Delta by giving them different performing tyres at different stages of life.
[01:10:17.440 -> 01:10:22.280] Yeah, exactly. And that's what we saw at Barcelona. We saw people on fresher tyres cruising up
[01:10:22.280 -> 01:10:26.500] behind other people and managing to pass them and not just get stuck there.
[01:10:26.500 -> 01:10:28.600] And the status quo resumes.
[01:10:28.600 -> 01:10:30.900] And that is conducive to good racing.
[01:10:30.900 -> 01:10:32.300] You want variable strategies.
[01:10:32.300 -> 01:10:38.000] I always look at it, you know, when you've got at least a two-stop race that everyone sets off at a different location,
[01:10:38.000 -> 01:10:41.100] all heading towards the finish line from completely different directions.
[01:10:41.100 -> 01:10:42.400] And it's whoever gets there first.
[01:10:42.400 -> 01:10:48.600] And it's fascinating, these strategy elements that we see. And this is why I criticise Pirelli because we want to
[01:10:48.600 -> 01:10:52.320] see that more. And I know they've got a very hard job and they've got massively limited
[01:10:52.320 -> 01:10:56.120] testing to try to do it. I know it's really, really hard. Being the Prime Minister is really,
[01:10:56.120 -> 01:10:59.840] really hard, but I still criticise them when they don't do a good job. So I think Pirelli
[01:10:59.840 -> 01:11:03.200] could have done a slightly better job, but I do very much understand that their task
[01:11:03.200 -> 01:11:08.480] is very difficult, but we want to see more strategy variations. And as you said, that reason is conducive
[01:11:08.480 -> 01:11:09.480] to good racing.
[01:11:09.480 -> 01:11:14.000] So one of the things about Barcelona that made it a particularly intriguing race from
[01:11:14.000 -> 01:11:20.240] a tire point of view, was the reconfiguration of the circuit invalidating a lot of historical
[01:11:20.240 -> 01:11:27.320] data that teams normally use for setups. On top of that, you had rain clearing the track for qualifying,
[01:11:27.320 -> 01:11:31.960] and then you had completely different weather on the Sunday. And teams that have been very good
[01:11:31.960 -> 01:11:36.920] with tires, Aston included, were suddenly struggling on tires they didn't expect to
[01:11:36.920 -> 01:11:47.680] struggle on. That's part of the fun. If I can offer a brief defense of Pirelli, especially in terms of the races this season, they've
[01:11:47.680 -> 01:11:53.720] been on a lot of resurfaced circuits, and that fundamentally changes the wear and degradation
[01:11:53.720 -> 01:11:59.280] profile, and we've seen enough times that happen that I'm not surprised the strategy
[01:11:59.280 -> 01:12:03.760] variations they thought might arise didn't on the circuits.
[01:12:03.760 -> 01:12:06.280] And on top of that, you have the new tire coming
[01:12:06.280 -> 01:12:08.640] for Silverstone because the teams have already reached
[01:12:08.640 -> 01:12:13.640] 2024 levels of downforce, five races into the 2023 season.
[01:12:14.120 -> 01:12:17.280] But the real joker is gonna be if the teams decide
[01:12:17.280 -> 01:12:20.920] to go for the no tire blanket tires,
[01:12:20.920 -> 01:12:24.900] and that last test is coming up in Silverstone.
[01:12:24.900 -> 01:12:25.820] Okay, yeah, Chris?
[01:12:25.820 -> 01:12:33.460] So why are they doing this no blanket tire test the weekend they're supposed to be introducing
[01:12:33.460 -> 01:12:39.460] the new construction of tire? Isn't that when the new construction is mooted to be introduced?
[01:12:39.460 -> 01:12:50.480] Yeah, I don't think they're absolutely related. So the new construction is to, yeah, basically to stop the tyres popping under high load, high load circumstances. The test
[01:12:50.480 -> 01:12:54.560] afterwards, which have just recently done a test with Mick Schumacher in Mercedes, and I think it
[01:12:54.560 -> 01:13:00.960] was Science and Leclerc in the Ferrari, is to moving towards 2024 of having no tyre warmers.
[01:13:00.960 -> 01:13:08.000] And I don't know what problem they are trying to fix by this rule, but to give them their credit, they're doing these tests to evaluate it and then they're going
[01:13:08.000 -> 01:13:10.360] to sit down and say, do we really want to do this or not?
[01:13:10.360 -> 01:13:14.200] So they're two very separate things, they're completely unrelated.
[01:13:14.200 -> 01:13:16.200] So the test is after the race?
[01:13:16.200 -> 01:13:17.200] Correct.
[01:13:17.200 -> 01:13:20.880] Okay, so it's not during a practice session, which is what it sounded like.
[01:13:20.880 -> 01:13:21.880] Yes.
[01:13:21.880 -> 01:13:26.000] And you kind of have to ask the question, why are we getting rid of tyre warmers?
[01:13:26.000 -> 01:13:27.000] What is this giving us?
[01:13:27.000 -> 01:13:29.640] Like, what was the problem and why?
[01:13:29.640 -> 01:13:31.000] Can somebody explain to me?
[01:13:31.000 -> 01:13:32.000] Sustainability.
[01:13:32.000 -> 01:13:34.360] Oh my goodness, no don't.
[01:13:34.360 -> 01:13:40.000] Right, what, what, we're going to save the electricity from the tyre blankets?
[01:13:40.000 -> 01:13:41.520] A few 20ps.
[01:13:41.520 -> 01:13:43.840] That is not the area.
[01:13:43.840 -> 01:13:48.400] Spanners, spanners. More electricity is used in tyre
[01:13:48.400 -> 01:13:55.680] blankets during a Formula 1 weekend than Formula E produces across everything it does to put on
[01:13:55.680 -> 01:14:01.520] an event. The energy footprint of tyre warmers, and I'm happy to learn, is a significant chunk
[01:14:01.520 -> 01:14:06.320] of Formula 1 and will make a difference to the overall carbon footprint
[01:14:06.320 -> 01:14:15.440] of the F1 circus. Yes, but also beyond the sustainability angle, why should F1 use tyre
[01:14:15.440 -> 01:14:20.240] blankets? Why can't the drivers generate their own tyre temperature when they do it in Formula
[01:14:20.240 -> 01:14:25.060] Two and Formula Three and lots of other single-seater championships.
[01:14:25.060 -> 01:14:26.940] These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world.
[01:14:26.940 -> 01:14:28.720] Let's stick them out there.
[01:14:28.720 -> 01:14:29.800] We're just raw.
[01:14:29.800 -> 01:14:32.180] Okay, well, enjoy the crashes, I guess, Kyle.
[01:14:33.200 -> 01:14:35.580] I actually think it could be a negative thing.
[01:14:35.580 -> 01:14:38.140] Now, because if you come out without tyre warmers,
[01:14:38.140 -> 01:14:39.340] you're gonna have a warmup phase.
[01:14:39.340 -> 01:14:42.580] You are going to be slow and high crash potential
[01:14:42.580 -> 01:14:43.420] after each stop.
[01:14:43.420 -> 01:14:44.480] What's that going to do?
[01:14:44.480 -> 01:14:45.120] It's going to make
[01:14:45.120 -> 01:14:48.840] the teams not want to stop, isn't it? Not want to stop very much. You're going to stop
[01:14:48.840 -> 01:14:53.080] the minimum amount of time so you have to go through the warm-up plays less.
[01:14:53.080 -> 01:14:57.760] Anyone who watches Formula 2 knows that there's still a great strategic element without tyre
[01:14:57.760 -> 01:15:04.800] blankets. Because what you get is a lot of the times you get a sort of overcut effect
[01:15:04.800 -> 01:15:06.820] where if you're the first one in,
[01:15:06.820 -> 01:15:09.200] then you come out on those cold tires
[01:15:09.200 -> 01:15:11.460] and you use that out lap to build the temperature.
[01:15:11.460 -> 01:15:15.460] If the car that you were racing then comes in a lap later,
[01:15:15.460 -> 01:15:17.540] it will likely come out ahead of you,
[01:15:17.540 -> 01:15:19.460] but then you're gonna have a massive advantage
[01:15:19.460 -> 01:15:20.300] for a whole lap,
[01:15:20.300 -> 01:15:21.340] because your tires are up to temperature
[01:15:21.340 -> 01:15:22.460] and there's a cold.
[01:15:22.460 -> 01:15:26.000] So you get more of an actual racing element
[01:15:26.000 -> 01:15:30.480] to it rather than just jumping them in the stops. It actually plays out on track more.
[01:15:31.520 -> 01:15:36.160] By the way, I just want to see the stats. Someone tell me the figures on the energy consumption of
[01:15:36.160 -> 01:15:41.200] tyre blankets because at the moment I'm not buying it. I'm always happy to learn but I'm like,
[01:15:41.200 -> 01:15:45.440] really it uses more than all the generators for the hot dog stands in the
[01:15:45.440 -> 01:15:50.800] crowd. It uses more than the air conditioning units of the motorhomes, the motorhomes themselves,
[01:15:50.800 -> 01:15:56.960] all the lighting in the garage, the stadium facilities, the fuel and the generation of
[01:15:56.960 -> 01:16:01.040] that fuel, the production of that fuel, the production of the hybrid systems and of the
[01:16:01.040 -> 01:16:06.560] batteries. You're telling me that tyre warmers is a significant chunk.
[01:16:06.560 -> 01:16:12.160] I want to be wrong, Matt. I want to be wrong, because then I'll have learned something amazing
[01:16:12.160 -> 01:16:13.160] and incredible.
[01:16:13.160 -> 01:16:18.560] I'm tempted to make a joke about how that's a happy place for you lately, but...
[01:16:18.560 -> 01:16:22.920] What? Being wrong? Learning? Git.
[01:16:22.920 -> 01:16:27.840] Sorry. But the point, I'm going to extend Chris's point aside from the
[01:16:27.840 -> 01:16:34.640] electricity consumption on site, you have both the shipping of these blankets all over the world.
[01:16:35.200 -> 01:16:40.560] They're not light. It's a logistical problem. And you have the cost of the blankets themselves
[01:16:40.560 -> 01:16:46.360] to the teams. Now, obviously, you're going to argue, well, if rookie throws it
[01:16:46.360 -> 01:16:48.560] in the wall, it's going to cost more to fix the car.
[01:16:48.600 -> 01:16:48.880] Yeah.
[01:16:48.960 -> 01:16:49.360] Yes.
[01:16:49.360 -> 01:16:50.880] If I really get to say, right.
[01:16:51.360 -> 01:16:55.360] And we see series like M said, and having not used tire
[01:16:55.360 -> 01:16:58.600] warmers in forever, they laugh when, when, when, when we talk
[01:16:58.600 -> 01:17:01.160] about tire warmers in F1, they're like, what, you need that?
[01:17:01.200 -> 01:17:01.720] Really?
[01:17:01.960 -> 01:17:02.440] Okay.
[01:17:02.440 -> 01:17:02.880] Whatever.
[01:17:03.400 -> 01:17:08.680] But it's another area of both team engineering skill, having a
[01:17:08.680 -> 01:17:11.260] setup that rapidly warms up the tires.
[01:17:11.780 -> 01:17:14.460] It's also a test of driver skill.
[01:17:14.980 -> 01:17:19.480] How, how, how much time can I extract from these tires
[01:17:19.540 -> 01:17:21.200] under these circumstances?
[01:17:21.200 -> 01:17:23.420] And finally, it's a test of Pirelli.
[01:17:23.780 -> 01:17:26.000] Can they design a tire that is usable
[01:17:26.560 -> 01:17:33.680] out of the pit lane at whatever ambient temperature is and aside from the Spa Race
[01:17:34.320 -> 01:17:41.200] and WEC, we have seen them mostly able at the professional level. Important to note at the
[01:17:41.200 -> 01:17:50.040] professional level, they have been able to manage them and the mistakes are generally either on the team getting the settings wrong or on the driver
[01:17:50.040 -> 01:17:53.720] just like stomping on that throttle a little bit too hard.
[01:17:53.720 -> 01:17:58.480] Thank you Anders in the live chat you legend his comment got got to save the carbon footprint
[01:17:58.480 -> 01:18:01.040] on the tire warmers for the private jets.
[01:18:01.040 -> 01:18:06.000] Thank you very much and the scheduling alone for Formula One is mad. Just to look at
[01:18:06.880 -> 01:18:13.920] tyre blankets, to use a very overplayed cliche, is arranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic.
[01:18:14.880 -> 01:18:21.200] Spanis, one of the best races I ever had in iRacing was against one of our patrons actually.
[01:18:22.080 -> 01:18:27.920] It was brilliant because I was using a setup that I felt was faster across
[01:18:27.920 -> 01:18:31.440] the race but for the first couple of laps was a little bit treacherous while the tyres got up to
[01:18:31.440 -> 01:18:38.480] temperature. He had gone for a setup that was very quick out the block but maybe a little bit slower
[01:18:38.480 -> 01:18:46.960] once the tyres were up to temperature compared to mine and he flew past me on the opening lap with such ease and I spent the
[01:18:46.960 -> 01:18:53.760] majority of the race trying to get round him and it was an incredible battle and if we get half
[01:18:53.760 -> 01:19:00.240] of the action that that race particularly provided in Formula One then I will be very happy to see
[01:19:00.240 -> 01:19:10.160] the back of tyre blankets. Well I think it's just going to be ice cold tyres and drivers in the wall. But something I don't want to see the back of, and we'll end on this, is Spa-Francorchamps.
[01:19:10.160 -> 01:19:17.360] That should never ever cross anyone's mind to be on a list of race tracks that should be taken off
[01:19:17.360 -> 01:19:23.280] the F1 calendar. It should be protected at all costs. If you're a fan of Formula 1 and you
[01:19:23.280 -> 01:19:30.680] organise Formula 1, you need to go in, you need to ring fence certain tracks and just look at the tracks that have consistently
[01:19:30.680 -> 01:19:37.420] provided good racing, not just in F1, but across all seasons, er, series, but look at
[01:19:37.420 -> 01:19:43.160] the great Formula One races and which tracks have provided a high majority of those. And
[01:19:43.160 -> 01:19:46.400] Spa is always top of that list. I think
[01:19:46.400 -> 01:19:51.360] I can think of a handful of tracks that I like better than Spa and that is Kota, I know people
[01:19:51.360 -> 01:19:58.000] won't like that, Silverstone and Suzuka. But I like Suzuka but it's not as good as Spa when it
[01:19:58.000 -> 01:20:03.920] comes to providing racing action. We need to wrap Spa in bubble wrap, Chris. I know it's going to
[01:20:03.920 -> 01:20:05.160] take a lot of bubble wrap
[01:20:05.160 -> 01:20:06.760] and that won't be sustainable,
[01:20:06.760 -> 01:20:08.500] but we can use some of the carbon footprint
[01:20:08.500 -> 01:20:11.480] we save on heating up tires slightly
[01:20:11.480 -> 01:20:15.360] to just wrap Spa in a big cocoon and protect it.
[01:20:15.360 -> 01:20:16.840] Don't pre-warm the bubble wrap though.
[01:20:16.840 -> 01:20:18.280] Yeah, don't pre-warm it, that'll be cold.
[01:20:18.280 -> 01:20:19.840] Yeah, need that for the jets.
[01:20:20.800 -> 01:20:23.740] I don't think Formula One has any right
[01:20:23.740 -> 01:20:26.000] to talk about getting rid of Spa when they're
[01:20:26.000 -> 01:20:31.340] talking about binning off Barcelona for a street track in Madrid.
[01:20:31.340 -> 01:20:36.880] This just goes to show you that we're maybe not going in the right direction right now
[01:20:36.880 -> 01:20:40.740] with the circuits, and we need to protect Spa.
[01:20:40.740 -> 01:20:50.140] And I think this is one of those moments, like when the Deadpool concept got leaked
[01:20:50.140 -> 01:20:54.020] and the fans cried out, you have to make this movie!
[01:20:54.020 -> 01:20:57.140] And Ryan Reynolds should be the one playing him.
[01:20:57.140 -> 01:21:04.500] And when the Snyder Cut got released of the Justice League, and this was a fan-funded
[01:21:04.500 -> 01:21:06.880] project, I think the Formula One fans, the
[01:21:06.880 -> 01:21:13.360] community needs to come together and stand on a hill and say, no, this track is staying.
[01:21:13.360 -> 01:21:18.280] How much should we, we could get everyone who listens to like, oh, right, let's crowdsource
[01:21:18.280 -> 01:21:23.440] it. So chuck in a tenner, everyone. And then Matt, we can, we can take those funds, we
[01:21:23.440 -> 01:21:25.680] can siphon off half. Oh crap, we should talk about funds, we can siphon off half. Oh, crap. We should talk
[01:21:25.680 -> 01:21:30.320] about that later. The siphoning off bit. Yeah, we can save spa. We can be a democracy. We can
[01:21:30.320 -> 01:21:35.680] come together and all agree because Formula One fans always do that. Yeah, we agree on everything.
[01:21:35.680 -> 01:21:41.760] And there's never any arguments about who gets to watch and who doesn't. No, this is an interesting
[01:21:41.760 -> 01:21:46.000] story because it comes with the continued inability of Formula
[01:21:46.000 -> 01:21:49.840] 1 to program a Grand Prix in Africa.
[01:21:49.840 -> 01:21:53.200] So Spa is on the calendar because South Africa wasn't.
[01:21:53.200 -> 01:21:56.880] South Africa is not on the calendar again, so Spa gets to stay.
[01:21:56.880 -> 01:22:02.240] But Liberty basically said to them, look, you know, we appreciate the track.
[01:22:02.240 -> 01:22:06.960] However, your fan facilities are terrible. You're not up to modern standards
[01:22:06.960 -> 01:22:12.020] You're not up to Koda. You're not up to Mexico. You're not up to them in terms of how you deal with it and
[01:22:12.640 -> 01:22:19.400] Spa has unlike many a track made a very real effort. They put in the new grandstands. They've
[01:22:21.160 -> 01:22:23.720] Reprofiled the circuit to make it safer and
[01:22:30.540 -> 01:22:30.740] The profile the circuit to make it safer and they're even enlarging the car park so if you're looking for a European grand prix to go to.
[01:22:48.800 -> 01:22:50.840] It might be a good choice next year because parking should be easier and travel around the circuit should be easier but in terms of racing i agree it's is it's a circuit that you, the odd rain destroyed race aside, produces fantastic, fantastic racing.
[01:22:50.840 -> 01:22:55.840] And we need that along with the street circuits and all the other fun that we're having.
[01:22:55.840 -> 01:23:00.720] And sorry, I sort of came into this a bit half cocked, but why are we talking about
[01:23:00.720 -> 01:23:10.720] the possibility of Spa being, you know, is this more Domenicalli stuff? Because Stefano Domenicali, who I don't object to overall, but Kyle is, I'm glad you weren't
[01:23:10.720 -> 01:23:15.520] on camera just then, is being divisive at the moment. Is that fair? Is that, that's
[01:23:15.520 -> 01:23:19.820] fair to say? Stefano Domenicali is saying a lot of stuff and he's giving his opinions
[01:23:19.820 -> 01:23:28.240] and his vision for the future. And I don't want to be... I try not to be too toxic and divisive.
[01:23:28.240 -> 01:23:34.320] But when you talk about replacing Barcelona with Madrid, there's a feeling of milking the cow
[01:23:34.320 -> 01:23:42.000] a little bit, of a managed decline to the point that then a Saudi fund comes in and takes over.
[01:23:42.000 -> 01:23:46.160] And this is a conversation me and Carl have been, you know, having at length over the barbecue.
[01:23:46.160 -> 01:23:47.600] But that's what it feels like.
[01:23:47.600 -> 01:23:48.560] It feels like at the moment,
[01:23:48.560 -> 01:23:52.600] that there's no reason to swap Barcelona out
[01:23:52.600 -> 01:23:57.120] for a street circuit unless you're looking to extract money.
[01:23:57.120 -> 01:24:00.360] And unfortunately, when anything seems bizarre,
[01:24:00.360 -> 01:24:03.760] you have to think money, don't you?
[01:24:03.760 -> 01:24:07.300] Yeah, and I do think Formula One is kind of,
[01:24:07.300 -> 01:24:09.040] I'm thinking carefully how to phrase this,
[01:24:09.040 -> 01:24:11.320] is kind of, they're in a bit of a fad phase
[01:24:11.320 -> 01:24:12.660] where they're cashing in on some of these
[01:24:12.660 -> 01:24:14.640] sort of like these street races.
[01:24:14.640 -> 01:24:17.340] And I'm just trying to think Spa needs to survive
[01:24:17.340 -> 01:24:20.000] this period where they are just milking the sport drive
[01:24:20.000 -> 01:24:21.740] for every dollar they can while it's popular,
[01:24:21.740 -> 01:24:22.860] which is how it feels like.
[01:24:22.860 -> 01:24:23.700] It does feel like.
[01:24:23.700 -> 01:24:25.640] And they're going to these sort of fad of sort of races.
[01:24:25.640 -> 01:24:26.240] They're just having...
[01:24:27.120 -> 01:24:30.480] Formula One's going to get found out soon and they might still be losing fans.
[01:24:30.480 -> 01:24:33.280] They might realise that, oh, we need to maybe keep some of our heritage
[01:24:33.280 -> 01:24:36.120] and to keep on these proper tracks and these new sort of a city street
[01:24:36.120 -> 01:24:39.680] circuit event things is not really very Formula One, but this might take five
[01:24:39.680 -> 01:24:44.440] to 10 years to rattle out before they realise actually, yeah, this isn't,
[01:24:44.480 -> 01:24:45.440] this isn't so good for the
[01:24:45.440 -> 01:24:48.860] sport and go back the other way. So if Spa can carry on surviving, because I'd love Kyle
[01:24:48.860 -> 01:24:52.480] Army, brilliant track, I'd love to see your Kyle Army on a calendar, but not at the expense
[01:24:52.480 -> 01:24:57.620] of Spa. You know, like, please, no, drop one of these street races that nobody really asked
[01:24:57.620 -> 01:25:02.560] for and keep Spa. But unfortunately, we're not being given that option. It's like, you
[01:25:02.560 -> 01:25:05.600] know, if you have a fry up and you want to trade out your, you want to
[01:25:05.600 -> 01:25:08.640] trade out your beans or your tomato and they're like, yeah, but you're going to have to
[01:25:08.640 -> 01:25:10.240] trade your sausage or your bacon for it.
[01:25:10.240 -> 01:25:11.480] You're like, no, I want to trade the bad bits.
[01:25:11.520 -> 01:25:14.200] We want, we don't want to trade good stuff for bad stuff.
[01:25:14.200 -> 01:25:17.480] Get rid of the black pudding that no one likes black pudding in a fry up.
[01:25:17.480 -> 01:25:18.160] It's ridiculous.
[01:25:19.520 -> 01:25:22.040] Weird Kyle analogies aside.
[01:25:22.080 -> 01:25:22.560] Sorry.
[01:25:22.600 -> 01:25:24.200] I hope we're being cynical.
[01:25:24.200 -> 01:25:28.540] I hope we're wrong. but yes, I understand business
[01:25:28.540 -> 01:25:30.800] and they will have to cash in, and I'd certainly agree
[01:25:30.800 -> 01:25:35.160] that it does feel like the F1 bubble is plateauing,
[01:25:35.160 -> 01:25:37.160] and so you've got to cash in now,
[01:25:37.160 -> 01:25:41.160] and we've seen it a lot, and perhaps the live golf thing
[01:25:41.160 -> 01:25:43.960] is sitting in my brain at the moment,
[01:25:43.960 -> 01:25:46.400] and yeah, Matt, you're shaking your head at that.
[01:25:46.400 -> 01:25:52.080] But look, that's the thing is if they know that there's a big bid coming in four or five years,
[01:25:52.080 -> 01:25:58.080] and it's going to come regardless, and it's going to come over the odds because money and ROI,
[01:25:58.080 -> 01:26:03.920] you know, return on investment isn't necessarily going to be the top of the Saudis' hit list,
[01:26:03.920 -> 01:26:05.440] you know, they will want it and they
[01:26:05.440 -> 01:26:11.280] will want to show it off, then if you're Formula One, I suppose you'd be kind of silly not to try
[01:26:11.280 -> 01:26:16.160] and extract the most amount of money from it. And in fact, I suppose the shareholders will demand it.
[01:26:16.720 -> 01:26:22.320] Yeah, there are even probably some laws about fiduciary duty and stuff like that that might
[01:26:22.320 -> 01:26:26.120] demand consideration, even if it's not in
[01:26:26.120 -> 01:26:27.760] the very best interest of the sport.
[01:26:27.760 -> 01:26:34.240] Of course, that's why we have the split between the FIA and FOM in the first place.
[01:26:34.240 -> 01:26:41.160] Yes, and a topic that we explored a few episodes back, but you know, we always get emails saying,
[01:26:41.160 -> 01:26:45.560] can you please explain the difference in structures between the FOM, Liberty Media,
[01:26:45.560 -> 01:26:50.320] FIA, et cetera, and how those sit. So we'll probably revisit that at some point in the
[01:26:50.320 -> 01:26:54.400] summer. And it feels like summer at the moment, because all of the panel, if you watch the
[01:26:54.400 -> 01:26:59.800] YouTube side, we are all covered in a glistening layer of sweats, because especially in the
[01:26:59.800 -> 01:27:06.860] UK, we are surprised by summer every single year. so we'll get our cooling solution sorted, but go and follow the cool
[01:27:07.200 -> 01:27:12.600] Kyle power at Kyle power f1 go and follow Chris Stevens at Chris on
[01:27:12.780 -> 01:27:20.180] Racing on Twitter and go and follow Matt at Matt PT 55 and did you have things to plug do we have things to plug?
[01:27:21.460 -> 01:27:24.020] My next performance will be at Joe's pub
[01:27:27.040 -> 01:27:32.720] plug. My next performance will be at Joe's Pub July 6th. You can get tickets online. Joe's Pub is part of the Public Theater here in New York City. And if you
[01:27:32.720 -> 01:27:37.440] think that we have done an awfully good job and you'd like to chuck us a tip and
[01:27:37.440 -> 01:27:43.000] buy us a coffee, missedapexpodcast.com forward slash tip jar. All these links
[01:27:43.000 -> 01:27:46.400] are in the show notes below and any support is gratefully appreciated.
[01:27:46.400 -> 01:27:53.720] And of course now it is time for another smooth plug of the Mist Apex socials at Mist Apex
[01:27:53.720 -> 01:28:00.140] F1 on Twitter and TikTok if you want to get some juicy extra Mist Apex content on your
[01:28:00.140 -> 01:28:01.140] social media feeds.
[01:28:01.140 -> 01:28:10.000] And if you're watching on YouTube and you're one of those 30% that hasn't subscribed just go and click that bell and do us a favor. That's pretty smooth, I was trying
[01:28:10.000 -> 01:28:14.400] to do some TikTok stuff at the beginning of the show because they always say can F1 learn from
[01:28:14.400 -> 01:28:20.720] other sports? Let's get into it. I need to pick up on that. Everyone like and subscribe, oh I should
[01:28:20.720 -> 01:28:26.880] say follow me as well at SpannersReady and make sure you tune in for the Canadian Grand Prix race review
[01:28:26.880 -> 01:28:31.600] Where I think we'll be streaming in the evening. I haven't looked up the timings yet. It's American timing
[01:28:31.600 -> 01:28:37.260] So probably be a bit later. I have a thing I want to plug as well because this week I'm off to Budapest for round
[01:28:37.920 -> 01:28:41.760] 3 of the International GT Open which I am commentating on
[01:28:42.160 -> 01:28:47.560] Live from the circuit so check out their YouTube channel and listen to me live on that
[01:28:47.960 -> 01:29:10.000] Wherever we see you next work hard be kind and have fun. This was missed apex podcast ♪♪
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