Alex Brundle: Feeder Series Primer

Spanners and Trumpets are joined by a very special guest, F1TV and WEC star Alex Brundle as they take a peek under the hood of F1’s feeder series. From karting chaos to spec series sparks, from monetary madness to the biggest leap on the ladder, no future F1 stone goes unturned in this, the latest episode of Missed Apex Podcast.

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**Navigating the Formula One Feeder Series: A Comprehensive Guide**

In this episode, Missed Apex Podcast delves into the intricacies of Formula One's feeder series, Formula 2 (F2) and Formula 3 (F3), alongside karting, to understand the challenges and opportunities that young drivers face as they strive to reach the pinnacle of motorsports. Alex Brundle, a former racing driver, F1 TV commentator, and Le Mans podium winner, joins the discussion to provide expert insights and perspectives.

**Spec Series: Leveling the Playing Field or Creating Hidden Advantages?**

The conversation begins with the concept of spec series, where all drivers compete with mechanically identical cars. While this aims to minimize equipment-based advantages, Alex explains that there's still room for teams to differentiate themselves through meticulous preparation, setup optimization, and exploiting loopholes within the regulations. This creates a dynamic where teams with greater resources and expertise can gain an edge over their rivals.

**The Significance of Team Dynamics and Resources**

Alex emphasizes the importance of team dynamics and resources in the feeder series. Teams with more financial backing can attract top-tier engineers, mechanics, and support staff, leading to better car preparation and race strategies. This can result in a significant performance advantage, as teams can optimize their cars to suit the strengths of their drivers and specific circuits.

**The Role of Driver Talent and Confidence**

Despite the influence of team resources, Alex stresses that driver talent remains a crucial factor in determining success. Drivers who possess exceptional skills and the ability to adapt quickly to different conditions can overcome equipment limitations and achieve impressive results. However, a driver's confidence also plays a vital role. When drivers lack confidence in their car's performance, they may hesitate to push the limits, resulting in slower lap times.

**The Importance of Seat Time and Engineering Support**

For young drivers, accumulating seat time is essential for developing their skills and gaining experience. The more time they spend behind the wheel, the better they understand their cars and how to extract maximum performance. Additionally, having experienced engineers and race strategists can make a significant difference, as they can provide valuable guidance and support during races.

**The Mechanics' Role in Success**

Alex highlights the often-overlooked role of mechanics in the feeder series. These individuals are responsible for preparing and maintaining the cars, and their expertise can greatly impact a team's performance. Mechanics who are skilled at identifying and resolving issues quickly can give their drivers a competitive advantage.

**The Feeder Series as a Proving Ground for Future F1 Stars**

The feeder series serve as a proving ground for future Formula One stars. Drivers who consistently perform well and demonstrate exceptional talent can attract the attention of top F1 teams, leading to opportunities for promotion. However, Alex cautions that the progression from the feeder series to Formula One is not always straightforward, as many factors, including politics and financial considerations, can influence a driver's career trajectory.

**Conclusion: A Multifaceted Journey to Formula One**

In conclusion, the feeder series present a complex and challenging landscape for young drivers aspiring to reach Formula One. While talent and skill are essential, the availability of resources, team dynamics, and external factors also play significant roles in determining success. The journey to Formula One is a multifaceted one, requiring a combination of talent, hard work, and strategic decision-making. **Navigating the Formula One Feeder Series: A Comprehensive Guide**

In this episode, Missed Apex Podcast hosts delve into the intricate world of Formula One feeder series, exploring the challenges, opportunities, and pathways to the pinnacle of motorsports. They are joined by special guest Alex Brundle, F1TV and WEC star, who provides invaluable insights from his own experiences.

**Key Points Discussed:**

1. **The Feeder Series Landscape:**
- Feeder series serve as stepping stones for young drivers aspiring to reach Formula One.
- These series provide a competitive environment to showcase talent and gain experience.

2. **Financial and Structural Challenges:**
- Funding plays a crucial role in a driver's progression through the feeder series.
- Teams often rely on sponsorship and driver funding to cover expenses.
- The financial burden can be a significant hurdle for many drivers.

3. **The Importance of Early Success:**
- Early success in feeder series can attract attention from Formula One teams and academies.
- Drivers need to demonstrate consistent performance and results to stand out.

4. **The Step Change from F3 to F2:**
- The transition from Formula 3 to Formula 2 marks a significant step up in terms of competition and car performance.
- F3 drivers face a steep learning curve as they adapt to more powerful cars and increased downforce.

5. **The Physical Demands of Single-Seater Racing:**
- Single-seater race cars are physically demanding, requiring drivers to withstand high levels of G-force and physical stress.
- The intensity and speed of the racing can be overwhelming for drivers new to the sport.

6. **The Mental and Emotional Challenges:**
- The mental and emotional toll of feeder series racing can be immense.
- Drivers face immense pressure to perform and secure funding for the next season.
- The lack of guaranteed progression can lead to uncertainty and disappointment.

7. **The Role of Experienced Drivers:**
- Experienced drivers play a vital role in the feeder series, providing mentorship and guidance to younger drivers.
- Their presence helps maintain a high level of competition and sets a benchmark for aspiring drivers.

8. **The Value of Spec Series:**
- Spec series, where all drivers use identical cars, level the playing field and allow drivers to focus on their skills and talent.
- These series provide a cost-effective way for drivers to gain experience and showcase their abilities.

9. **The Importance of Personal Connections:**
- Personal connections and relationships within the racing community can be instrumental in a driver's success.
- Building strong relationships with team owners, engineers, and sponsors can open doors and create opportunities.

10. **The Path to Formula One:**
- The path to Formula One is arduous and highly competitive.
- Drivers must navigate through multiple feeder series, demonstrating exceptional talent, consistency, and resilience.
- Only a select few make it to the pinnacle of motorsports.

**Conclusion:**

The Formula One feeder series serve as a proving ground for aspiring drivers, where they face numerous challenges and opportunities on their journey to the top. The financial, physical, and mental demands of the sport require immense dedication and perseverance. While the path to Formula One is narrow, the feeder series play a vital role in developing and nurturing the next generation of racing stars.

[00:00.000 -> 00:07.000] ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend.
[00:07.000 -> 00:13.800] Danny Pellegrino Hello, I'm Danny Pellegrino, host of the
[00:13.800 -> 00:19.920] Everything Iconic podcast. And this holiday season, I'm once again joined by my buddy,
[00:19.920 -> 00:21.440] writer and comedian Jenna Brister.
[00:21.440 -> 00:22.800] Jenna Brister Hey, Danny, happy holidays!
[00:22.800 -> 00:24.280] Danny Pellegrino Happy holidays. Is it too early?
[00:24.280 -> 00:25.600] Jenna Brister No, never. Danny it too early? No, never.
[00:25.600 -> 00:30.440] Never, never. That's right. And season five of our Holiday Movie Recap Podcast, a very
[00:30.440 -> 00:35.000] merry iconic podcast. We'll be covering all of your Christmas favorites. This year we're
[00:35.000 -> 00:37.520] covering Christmas story, The Grinch.
[00:37.520 -> 00:38.520] The Grinch again.
[00:38.520 -> 00:39.520] Again.
[00:39.520 -> 00:40.520] Because we have more thoughts.
[00:40.520 -> 00:43.960] We always have more thoughts on that Grinch monster. Love him. That's right. We're breaking
[00:43.960 -> 00:49.320] down the seasonal films while taking plenty of detours along the way. So grab your cocoa,
[00:49.320 -> 00:52.760] grab your peppermint schnapps, meet us by the fire. For our exact schedule, you can
[00:52.760 -> 00:58.280] follow us on Instagram at a very merry iconic podcast. Finally that time. So get in the
[00:58.280 -> 01:38.320] holiday spirit with a very merry iconic podcast available wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm podcast we live f1
[01:38.320 -> 01:43.960] welcome to miss apex podcast I'm your host Richard ready but my friends call
[01:43.960 -> 01:45.840] me Spanners so let's be
[01:45.840 -> 01:52.240] friends, especially as it's Christmas and my gift to you this Christmas was going to be a magazine
[01:52.240 -> 01:58.000] show made up of several different segments, but this particular interview with Alex Brundle was
[01:58.000 -> 02:04.640] so informative, entertaining and generous from Alex that we decided to make it a standalone episode,
[02:04.640 -> 02:05.120] so we'll
[02:05.120 -> 02:09.200] get those other segments to you early in the new year but Alex shared loads of
[02:09.200 -> 02:15.120] stuff about the F1 feeder series F2 F3 and a little bit about karting as well
[02:15.120 -> 02:20.040] and it's a fascinating insight into what drivers have to do to get themselves up
[02:20.040 -> 02:24.920] the F1 ladder so I'm going to play that for you right now after I remind you
[02:24.920 -> 02:25.280] that we are an
[02:25.280 -> 02:30.640] independent podcast produced in the podcasting shed with the kind permission of our better halves.
[02:30.640 -> 02:34.000] We aim to bring you a race review before your Monday morning commute.
[02:34.000 -> 02:38.160] We might be wrong but we're first. Here's that segment right now.
[02:44.000 -> 02:48.720] Hi guys, Spanners here and we are going to be talking about the Junior Series today and
[02:48.720 -> 02:52.520] I'm joined by Matt Trumpets, he's here just in case you thought that he'd disappeared.
[02:52.520 -> 02:53.520] Hello Matt.
[02:53.520 -> 02:55.560] Hi there, looking forward to it.
[02:55.560 -> 03:01.800] Now I think you and I, we might have to confess that at this point in our careers, the sim
[03:01.800 -> 03:05.200] racing and the karting isn't going to be enough to launch us into
[03:05.200 -> 03:06.920] Formula One, sadly.
[03:06.920 -> 03:13.720] Yeah, I... after several rounds at Buckmar, I have to admit that I am thoroughly mediocre
[03:13.720 -> 03:17.560] and nothing I do will make me fast enough for Formula One.
[03:17.560 -> 03:25.000] I stay awake at night dreaming of being mediocre. So obviously, we have to look to the next generation. I assume at some
[03:25.000 -> 03:31.200] point I will catch the next NFT or Bitcoin wave or simply win the Euro
[03:31.200 -> 03:36.800] millions and then I can get my young lads or my young lady into karting and
[03:36.800 -> 03:40.800] Formula One and they can they can carry the mantle and be the Formula One
[03:40.800 -> 03:44.200] champion. I definitely would have been had I been a billionaire.
[03:44.900 -> 03:48.320] Yes, well money solves many problems in motorsports.
[03:48.320 -> 03:54.360] I've heard that money can be exchanged for goods and services and we want to know just
[03:54.360 -> 03:58.440] how far money can get you and talent can get you in the Junior Series.
[03:58.440 -> 04:03.440] But we have absolutely no experience at all in watching really, Matt.
[04:03.440 -> 04:05.040] Something we've wanted to do for ages was
[04:05.040 -> 04:11.280] have a Myst Apex feeder series, but it's actually hard to find enough people that are knowledgeable
[04:11.280 -> 04:16.880] about it to get that kind of project up and going. Yeah, there's actually, because there's so many of
[04:16.880 -> 04:23.200] them and because people come and go so quickly, it's quite an undertaking to stay firmly on top
[04:23.200 -> 04:25.520] of it and know who's coming up and who's headed out.
[04:25.520 -> 04:31.280] So what we really need is someone who has driven in a lot of the tiers of the Junior Series and
[04:31.280 -> 04:37.440] commentated on F1 TV, and luckily we have broadcasting superstar and Le Mans podium
[04:37.440 -> 04:39.680] winner Alex Brundle joining us. Hello, Alex.
[04:40.240 -> 04:42.640] Hello, gang. How are you? Good to see you, as always.
[04:42.640 -> 04:46.640] Thanks for slumming it in the sheds. We're always surprised when people come from the
[04:46.640 -> 04:51.200] top commentary booths in the world and the world stage to then come and sit with us in
[04:51.200 -> 04:53.200] our shed. It's appreciated.
[04:53.200 -> 05:02.160] Well, it's only my kitchen, guys. It's always a pleasure to talk to you guys about all topics,
[05:02.160 -> 05:04.240] Formula One, FIDA series and otherwise.
[05:04.240 -> 05:07.800] Well there are dozens of people listening, so don't get too comfortable.
[05:07.800 -> 05:11.200] But the question really that I wanted to set this off from
[05:11.200 -> 05:14.600] came from your TikTok channel, because you're still considering yourself
[05:14.600 -> 05:17.800] young and dynamic, and you've set yourself up a TikTok
[05:17.800 -> 05:20.800] with short, bite-sized explainers. They're very good.
[05:20.800 -> 05:25.640] Thank you. Yeah, I had no idea what to do on TikTok.
[05:25.640 -> 05:30.500] So I just sort of just continued responding to questions
[05:30.500 -> 05:32.260] people were asking me about racing.
[05:32.260 -> 05:34.460] And then the questions sort of led to more questions.
[05:34.460 -> 05:35.800] And so I answered those questions,
[05:35.800 -> 05:37.000] which led to more questions.
[05:37.000 -> 05:40.400] And that's how we ended up with a feed full of answers.
[05:40.400 -> 05:42.220] But I'm very much enjoying it.
[05:42.220 -> 05:48.960] And this particular one about the feeder series was, I think, specifically about F2 and F3.
[05:48.960 -> 05:52.520] And okay, so when I've argued with people in the past, oh, I don't like such and such
[05:52.520 -> 05:54.480] a driver, I don't think they're very good.
[05:54.480 -> 05:59.120] And they've gone, yeah, but they won F2, F3, and that's a spec series.
[05:59.120 -> 06:06.540] So I'm wondering what that really, in effect, means, because there are spec series and then there are
[06:06.540 -> 06:13.580] our spec series. In my head is every driver always driving mechanically the
[06:13.580 -> 06:18.740] same car with the same opportunity and is that too simple a question?
[06:18.740 -> 06:24.340] It's worth saying that spec series are how the majority of motorsport happens these
[06:24.340 -> 06:29.720] days. There are more spec series out there than none, especially in terms of single
[06:29.720 -> 06:37.380] seaters, even IndyCar is a spec single seater series, but it basically means
[06:37.380 -> 06:43.080] you're dealing with exactly the same mechanical parts as they're put together
[06:43.120 -> 06:47.800] by the chassis manufacturer, often DLara, so often DeLara
[06:47.800 -> 06:50.720] in the world of feeder series.
[06:50.720 -> 06:55.200] And those parts can only be built in a certain way, but there are still avenues for teams
[06:55.200 -> 06:57.080] to do a better job than other teams.
[06:57.080 -> 07:00.160] Indeed, that is the entire point of a team.
[07:00.160 -> 07:02.600] That's what their function is.
[07:02.600 -> 07:05.520] There would be no point in preparing these cars or having
[07:05.520 -> 07:09.720] these teams if they couldn't outperform each other. That's the idea of them.
[07:09.720 -> 07:16.720] Ah, okay. But you get something like W Series where I think that's much more out of the
[07:16.720 -> 07:22.320] door. The cars are all prepared by the same people and then the drivers get in, more or
[07:22.320 -> 07:25.680] less. But with something like F2 and F3, do they just get
[07:25.680 -> 07:32.080] Amazon deliveries of parts and the teams can still do things with their bundle of Christmas presents?
[07:32.800 -> 07:36.720] Well, WSeries is interesting because it used to be centrally operated, much in the way
[07:38.720 -> 07:45.160] MSV Formula 2 was operated back when I did it, or Formula Palmer Audi, they then moved to more of the traditional
[07:45.160 -> 07:51.560] system team-based where the teams took those parts and built them up.
[07:51.560 -> 07:59.820] I mean, the idea with those centrally operated series is that you get exactly the same build
[07:59.820 -> 08:06.600] of car and you basically are just in control of the setup elements of it, you're still
[08:06.600 -> 08:12.580] though realistically reliant on the exact individuals that build those cars.
[08:12.580 -> 08:18.320] But even when you go down to a local kart track and they have always the best intentions
[08:18.320 -> 08:22.280] for kart parity, you get such a wide variance.
[08:22.280 -> 08:25.000] Even over just a 50 second lap, you'll get a car that's
[08:25.000 -> 08:29.640] half a second above another one and you see as you go up the hill, you see someone and
[08:29.640 -> 08:31.360] you go, have I gained weight?
[08:31.360 -> 08:34.340] Or why is that car flying past me so easily?
[08:34.340 -> 08:36.600] But you see people pulling away on the straights.
[08:36.600 -> 08:39.640] And I think like those top kart tracks in the country with their rental karts, they
[08:39.640 -> 08:44.240] make a real concerted effort to have kart parity and it's very difficult to do.
[08:44.240 -> 08:45.040] So even with the best
[08:45.040 -> 08:49.920] intentions, you're always going to come up with a car that will have a slight advantage somewhere.
[08:50.640 -> 08:57.600] Yeah, I mean, do yourself a favor next time you're down the kart track and ask the guy or girl who's
[08:57.600 -> 09:09.120] running those machines, which are the good ones and which are the bad ones. Without fail, they'll go six, seven, and 12 are faster.
[09:09.120 -> 09:12.200] Make sure you don't get in 21 or 26.
[09:12.200 -> 09:19.400] The reason for that, I've dealt throughout my career with handmade prototypes of World
[09:19.400 -> 09:22.700] Endurance Championship level.
[09:22.700 -> 09:27.440] They put those on a flat plate, they measure all of the angles of those
[09:27.440 -> 09:33.320] cars and they come up slightly different. Of course, these things are bespoke, they're
[09:33.320 -> 09:41.520] handmade. And so each race car is its own living entity and you need to be on top of
[09:41.520 -> 09:46.480] it as a team. Even two cars across the garage sometimes need a little bit of something different.
[09:46.480 -> 09:49.600] Yeah, and so if you're in something like W Series
[09:49.600 -> 09:51.200] and they don't rotate the cars,
[09:51.200 -> 09:53.160] I don't know whether they did or not,
[09:53.160 -> 09:55.180] I mean, that could make or break a career
[09:55.180 -> 09:58.000] just happening to get like a chassis that's bent,
[09:58.000 -> 10:00.880] for example, that you can't quite detect.
[10:00.880 -> 10:01.720] Yeah, certainly.
[10:01.720 -> 10:04.560] I mean, bending carbon fiber is a tough one.
[10:04.560 -> 10:11.720] You tend to snap it, but yeah, I totally take your point.
[10:11.720 -> 10:16.560] Rebonded, refabricated chassis, you're always working with the physical limitations.
[10:16.560 -> 10:22.560] It must be said though, in the world of carbon fiber racing cars, I would say difficulties
[10:22.560 -> 10:25.920] with the chassis, difficulties with the equipment are used as
[10:25.920 -> 10:33.720] an excuse for non-performance way more than they are actually in realistic terms the reason
[10:33.720 -> 10:34.720] for that non-performance.
[10:34.720 -> 10:35.720] Oh, I see.
[10:35.720 -> 10:41.060] Yeah, and look, we're always going to be cautious with you as a professional within the FIA
[10:41.060 -> 10:44.880] and as an F1 TV commentator to not name individuals, but I can.
[10:44.880 -> 10:45.840] Mazepin, didn't
[10:45.840 -> 10:48.960] he make a big deal about, oh, we've got a cracked chassis, and then they've made them
[10:48.960 -> 10:55.120] swap the chassis. And there's numerous examples of that. But I can't remember it making a
[10:55.120 -> 10:59.280] difference. But a cracked chassis can maybe psychologically get in a driver's head as
[10:59.280 -> 11:02.160] well. It's got to be something. It can't be me.
[11:02.160 -> 11:05.920] Yeah. And the problem with that is you get down this rabbit hole
[11:05.920 -> 11:13.680] of finding the root cause of the problem. There are good ways to deal with that, and there are
[11:13.680 -> 11:17.760] bad ways to deal with that. Some drivers can deal with that kind of thing very constructively.
[11:18.640 -> 11:24.640] Other drivers get into the blame game where they're telling you that you're not performing,
[11:24.640 -> 11:25.160] you're telling them that there're not performing, you're telling
[11:25.160 -> 11:28.400] them that there's a problem, there's definitely a right way and a wrong way.
[11:28.400 -> 11:34.760] And it's all part of the skill of being a racing driver is having a calm and rational
[11:34.760 -> 11:41.880] head to isolate what is truly the issue and try to push down that rope and acknowledge
[11:41.880 -> 11:46.880] sometimes when in fact the issue lies with you, which it so
[11:46.880 -> 11:52.480] often does. You are the most fallible entity always within the machine you race.
[11:53.440 -> 11:57.840] One of the things that I actually really would like to ask you about, since we're talking about
[11:57.840 -> 12:07.000] F2, let's just start there. But isn't that replacing the chassis? That's sort of like, well, the driver is feeling something.
[12:07.000 -> 12:15.000] Our engineers can't identify anything other than telemetry problems, like wheel spin or something like that.
[12:15.000 -> 12:21.000] But we can't find anything wrong with the car. We tried every setup available. The issue is still there.
[12:21.000 -> 12:27.360] So after four or five races, let's just give them a new chassis and see what happens,
[12:27.360 -> 12:32.000] whether it's psychological or whether they actually find a crack is almost irrelevant at that point.
[12:33.040 -> 12:40.640] Yes, to a point I agree. I mean, so much of the time with these issues, you will get a driver
[12:40.640 -> 12:48.480] complaining, for example, that the balance doesn't feel bad. There's nothing specifically and overbearingly wrong with the way the car feels. They just don't have the speed or
[12:48.480 -> 12:55.600] the pace. And at that moment, the only limiting factor, well, there are two limiting factors to
[12:55.600 -> 13:00.320] giving them more resources. One of them is regulation, whether the regulations actually
[13:00.320 -> 13:08.560] allow you to switch that chassis over. And the other one is cost. You know, everything has to fall within the budget.
[13:08.560 -> 13:11.000] And if a team don't believe
[13:11.000 -> 13:13.620] that it's actually gonna benefit their performance
[13:13.620 -> 13:15.600] and the driver's performance to switch that chassis over,
[13:15.600 -> 13:16.440] then they won't.
[13:18.660 -> 13:21.620] Sometimes, in my experience,
[13:21.620 -> 13:27.280] by the time you look at changing chassis over, so much time has passed
[13:27.280 -> 13:32.500] and so much isolation of the issue has been done, really the ship has sailed.
[13:32.500 -> 13:37.060] You don't have enough time in 2022 motorsport to get to that point and still get a good
[13:37.060 -> 13:39.020] result by the end of the season.
[13:39.020 -> 13:44.100] So it's like a really expensive placebo, like a really expensive kiss on the, magic
[13:44.100 -> 13:45.000] kiss on the knee kiss on the knee.
[13:45.260 -> 13:46.440] That solves everything.
[13:47.140 -> 13:50.500] It's more extremely sad and expensive game of Cluedo.
[13:51.100 -> 13:54.800] Realistically, you just keep on going down avenues while
[13:54.800 -> 13:56.280] opportunities pass you by.
[13:56.280 -> 14:01.240] And I think every driver who's raced over, you know, I've been in positions
[14:01.240 -> 14:05.520] where the car has been absolutely fantastic and whatever it is between
[14:05.520 -> 14:08.040] me and the car has gelled absolutely.
[14:08.040 -> 14:11.720] We've romped off into the distance in one race and it's been brilliant.
[14:11.720 -> 14:17.160] Then of course, you firmly believe it's all you and you're just doing a tremendous job
[14:17.160 -> 14:22.680] and have to remember, if not reminded, that there are a group of people behind you making
[14:22.680 -> 14:31.120] that happen. I've also been in a position where you're running this grand and sad science experiment
[14:31.120 -> 14:38.600] to try to find what's wrong while opportunities for achievement routinely pass you by day
[14:38.600 -> 14:40.680] after day, race after race.
[14:40.680 -> 14:41.680] Right.
[14:41.680 -> 14:46.680] Before we leave Formula 2 behind for a moment, I wanted to ask, in Formula 1 we
[14:46.680 -> 14:52.520] have budget limitations now. Do those exist in Formula 2?
[14:52.520 -> 15:00.360] They don't exist in terms of the, you know, a hard budget limitation. The cars have a
[15:00.360 -> 15:06.740] sale price, which is mandated, but they're not limited on the amount of money
[15:06.740 -> 15:10.100] they can spend on that product.
[15:10.100 -> 15:15.220] What they're limited on is the amount of things you can reasonably buy.
[15:15.220 -> 15:20.900] You have to buy all of the products from Dallara to operate the car.
[15:20.900 -> 15:26.200] You have to take the engine lease from Mechachrome.
[15:26.200 -> 15:28.980] You can't develop those parts.
[15:28.980 -> 15:33.760] The only thing you can do is measure them within an inch of their life to make sure
[15:33.760 -> 15:39.880] they're all in the right place and work on them with extremely fine tolerances to make
[15:39.880 -> 15:43.200] sure they're absolutely nailed in terms of setup and spend.
[15:43.200 -> 15:45.600] But you're limited on the amount of people you can bring to an event.
[15:45.600 -> 15:46.600] That was my next question.
[15:46.600 -> 15:49.600] You can't find an advantage there.
[15:49.600 -> 15:53.120] So actually, realistically, you're limited, A, by the amount of things you can realistically
[15:53.120 -> 15:57.600] buy and B, by the amount of money that drivers will actually have to spend.
[15:57.600 -> 15:58.600] Yeah.
[15:58.600 -> 16:02.120] And so, look, this is getting to the heart of why I wanted to talk to you about this.
[16:02.120 -> 16:05.200] And I'll definitely leave names out of it,
[16:05.200 -> 16:09.120] but basically I always have an argument with, oh, I don't think such and such should drive
[16:09.120 -> 16:13.720] for that team because I don't think they're as good or at that very elite level. And then
[16:13.720 -> 16:19.240] you go, ah, but they won F2, they won F3, and F3 is a spec series, as we started the
[16:19.240 -> 16:26.160] segment off with before. So without trying to kind of demean or put down anybody's specific achievements,
[16:26.160 -> 16:31.080] I am just genuinely curious about where you can gain that advantage. And obviously the
[16:31.080 -> 16:35.440] first one we talked about there, no budget cap, so you can have unlimited catering. So
[16:35.440 -> 16:41.960] you can have a very happy, you can raise morale. But yeah, I'm assuming you can throw more
[16:41.960 -> 16:46.480] labor hours at the preparation before you get to a racetrack. So there's
[16:46.480 -> 16:51.520] other advantages like that. But there are reputations where, you know, other teams have
[16:51.520 -> 16:57.280] reputations within the feeder series as being premium teams and presumably charge more for
[16:57.280 -> 17:09.280] their drivers. So where can they find an edge in the feeder series? So I'm going to use a specific example because it will explain it conceptually.
[17:09.280 -> 17:16.760] So let's say you have a certain rake angle, which is more plain, more efficient than the
[17:16.760 -> 17:20.560] other rake angles, rake being the difference between the ride height at the front of the
[17:20.560 -> 17:22.000] car and the rear of the car.
[17:22.000 -> 17:23.000] Okay.
[17:23.000 -> 17:24.000] Okay.
[17:24.000 -> 17:26.240] So like if you could just go to the racing guard and go, can you just settle this for
[17:26.240 -> 17:27.240] us?
[17:27.240 -> 17:28.240] What's the correct rake angle?
[17:28.240 -> 17:29.240] Exactly that.
[17:29.240 -> 17:30.240] Exactly that.
[17:30.240 -> 17:35.560] There will be a whole list of other factors around that rake angle in order to get the
[17:35.560 -> 17:39.200] car to that rake angle because of course it's having downforce on it.
[17:39.200 -> 17:40.900] It's bumping around on the track.
[17:40.900 -> 17:42.100] It's going through the corners.
[17:42.100 -> 17:45.600] So getting it to that perfect rake angle is
[17:45.600 -> 17:56.720] an enterprise in itself. If I can throw 100 hours of CFD at modeling that car and making
[17:56.720 -> 18:02.200] sure that I understand exactly how to get it there versus a team who can only afford
[18:02.200 -> 18:10.040] to throw 10 hours with a lesser simulation tool at it, my car will simply be faster.
[18:10.040 -> 18:12.600] It's not going to have more understeer, it's not going to have less understeer, it's not
[18:12.600 -> 18:14.880] going to have less oversteer, it's not going to have less power, it's not going to have
[18:14.880 -> 18:16.640] less weight, it will just go faster.
[18:16.640 -> 18:21.460] And this is a real example of something that is happening today in a junior series or has
[18:21.460 -> 18:24.320] happened in the last decade.
[18:24.320 -> 18:30.440] It's really the fundamental example, understanding these cars in terms of their aerodynamics.
[18:30.440 -> 18:39.560] Because the teams are supplied with aero mapping from the manufacturer, but validating that
[18:39.560 -> 18:42.760] a lot of that's on an offset where the...
[18:42.760 -> 18:45.680] Basically so that another manufacturer can't copy their cars is on an offset where the... Basically so that another manufacturer can't copy their cars
[18:52.800 -> 18:54.720] is on an offset. So one will be three, two will be five, and so on and so forth.
[19:02.880 -> 19:05.700] So taking that car, modeling it absolutely, and the teams in many ways understand the cars better than the manufacturers do in order
[19:05.700 -> 19:07.240] to get performance out of them.
[19:07.240 -> 19:10.120] So that is realistically how you do it.
[19:10.120 -> 19:15.280] Okay, look, almost straight away, I've got to the answer I wanted, which is there are
[19:15.280 -> 19:16.280] things you can do.
[19:16.280 -> 19:18.360] It is still a team game.
[19:18.360 -> 19:22.780] So a driver might find themselves in a better position than another driver.
[19:22.780 -> 19:24.400] Let's make it about Alex Brundle.
[19:24.400 -> 19:30.880] I don't know what your childhood was like, but for me, I had to play games with Spanners 1 and
[19:30.880 -> 19:37.080] Spanners 2 and take turns. So while I'm doing stripes, now I missed. Now I'm doing spots.
[19:37.080 -> 19:44.200] So Alex 1 versus Alex 2, what sort of time difference in a good or bad rake are we talking
[19:44.200 -> 19:45.120] about?
[19:45.120 -> 19:46.120] Ballpark?
[19:46.120 -> 19:51.720] I mean, case by case, circuit by circuit.
[19:51.720 -> 19:54.320] For example, depends on...
[19:54.320 -> 19:59.320] Most of the differences between a good car aerodynamically and a bad car aerodynamically
[19:59.320 -> 20:06.680] belong to a box which I would call sensitivity to efficiency, which means... So if you think about Spa-Francorchamps,
[20:06.680 -> 20:12.320] for example, is the optimum sensitivity to efficiency. How much downforce am I making
[20:12.320 -> 20:18.520] versus how much drag is it producing? Spa, because it has long straights and fast corners,
[20:18.520 -> 20:24.640] is the ultimate sensitivity to efficiency. Somewhere like interlagos, because it doesn't
[20:24.640 -> 20:26.000] have, is less.
[20:26.000 -> 20:28.000] So it depends circuit by circuit.
[20:28.000 -> 20:32.080] So interlagos, you can bolt more downforce on and there's less penalty because you've
[20:32.080 -> 20:35.200] got short straights. Whereas, is that right?
[20:35.200 -> 20:40.400] Exactly. So the difference between a good car and a bad car, or a good car and a less
[20:40.400 -> 20:47.280] good car, because they're all pretty on it, is less. For example, at Monza, you'll
[20:47.280 -> 20:53.100] see cars that are able to ditch drag and drivers that are able to drive through slow corners
[20:53.100 -> 20:58.680] catch up with teams who have very good sensitivity to efficiency based around their ride height
[20:58.680 -> 21:02.320] and rake setup. At Spa, they'll get nowhere near them.
[21:02.320 -> 21:05.120] Amazing. That's really good insight. Matt.
[21:05.120 -> 21:07.640] Well, I think I missed it all.
[21:07.640 -> 21:10.640] I just want to bring up that,
[21:10.640 -> 21:14.120] would this also include simulating setups
[21:14.120 -> 21:17.080] so the teams are ready to go out of the box?
[21:17.080 -> 21:18.200] Because I know in Formula One,
[21:18.200 -> 21:22.620] that has become a very big differentiator in performance.
[21:22.620 -> 21:24.820] Teams that can show up having run thousands
[21:24.820 -> 21:26.980] of setup combinations and know Friday morning
[21:26.980 -> 21:30.680] when they walk out the door, they have the three or four they think are going to be best
[21:30.680 -> 21:31.680] for the weekend.
[21:31.680 -> 21:32.680] Yes.
[21:32.680 -> 21:38.840] So most teams will run, I mean, the most prevalent one is called canopy, where they will run
[21:38.840 -> 21:39.840] exactly that.
[21:39.840 -> 21:42.380] So they'll have a model of the car, they'll have a model of the circuit.
[21:42.380 -> 21:44.520] This model doesn't exist.
[21:44.520 -> 21:45.040] There's
[21:45.040 -> 21:49.720] no driver driving it. I'm not talking about a simulation in terms of, you know, I'm sitting
[21:49.720 -> 21:56.240] in a simulator. You have an AI driver and it's happening conceptually in the same way
[21:56.240 -> 22:02.920] that sort of a Wall Street analyst might simulate all of the different ways the market might
[22:02.920 -> 22:03.920] go.
[22:03.920 -> 22:08.400] Hang on, hang on. This is news? There's an AI driver they use for the simulations.
[22:08.400 -> 22:13.440] A little bit of the magic just went. I want to know who the robot driver is. We want to
[22:13.440 -> 22:17.760] give it a name, I think. So they can set that AI driver up to extract
[22:17.760 -> 22:24.240] a certain percentage of the performance. So they work with that. Then they will run
[22:23.640 -> 22:28.920] So, they work with that. Then they will run that simulation 2,000 times.
[22:28.920 -> 22:34.680] The simulation will kick out a starting setup and then two or three different options.
[22:34.680 -> 22:38.720] So, again, one of the reasons why you see teams improve and improve and improve with
[22:38.720 -> 22:43.200] time in a series and improve and improve and improve with driver feedback is they'll be
[22:43.200 -> 22:45.280] slowly building in their
[22:45.280 -> 22:51.200] simulation software their appropriate simulation of the car in reality. The closer you get the
[22:51.200 -> 22:57.680] simulation of the car in reality to the reality on track the better your starting point is when you
[22:57.680 -> 23:02.720] arrive. Okay I want to see a race map between the AI drivers now from all the different teams.
[23:02.720 -> 23:05.520] That's that's what that's off-season sorted.
[23:05.520 -> 23:06.640] Oh my goodness.
[23:06.640 -> 23:08.860] Forget your sprint weekend, AI races.
[23:10.080 -> 23:12.280] I admit to being disappointed you didn't point out
[23:12.280 -> 23:15.280] that the best setup extracts the most from the tires
[23:15.280 -> 23:18.400] and the tires being right gives you the most lap time
[23:18.400 -> 23:19.740] out of anything you can do.
[23:19.740 -> 23:21.320] But it brings me to my real point,
[23:21.320 -> 23:27.200] which is as a driver, when you arrive to F3 or F2, what
[23:27.200 -> 23:31.280] aspect for you is most important?
[23:31.280 -> 23:33.160] Is it the amount of seat time?
[23:33.160 -> 23:37.960] Like I mean, I remember when Stroll went to Williams, he spent half a year driving old
[23:37.960 -> 23:38.960] Formula 1 cars.
[23:38.960 -> 23:40.880] I mean, Piastri has done this too.
[23:40.880 -> 23:42.120] Is it seat time?
[23:42.120 -> 23:49.680] Is it the race engineer at the best teams that's going to make the biggest difference for you? Is it just the equipment they have, like the simulations
[23:49.680 -> 23:55.080] and stuff like that? What matters most to the driver when they arrive at that level?
[23:55.080 -> 23:56.080] Good shout.
[23:56.080 -> 24:01.720] I mean, I think it's worth pointing out at this stage, we talked a lot about the differentiation
[24:01.720 -> 24:06.560] between the car, that talent is still a thing.
[24:06.560 -> 24:11.900] Drivers who can drive when they arrive tend to win stuff.
[24:11.900 -> 24:14.240] That is a real thing that really happens.
[24:14.240 -> 24:16.660] It's not all just out there in the ether.
[24:16.660 -> 24:22.000] But for the driver arriving, a little bit of everything's important.
[24:22.000 -> 24:27.360] Drivers moving through the series so young that actually, if you get a lot of
[24:27.360 -> 24:31.920] seat time packed into a short period of time, that helps you massively.
[24:31.920 -> 24:36.800] And then they arrive in these series, if the team have a good setup and a good engineering
[24:36.800 -> 24:41.420] background, you hit the ground running, you end up at the front, you gain confidence,
[24:41.420 -> 24:48.620] and then that moves these young drivers through with the confidence that they can fight the front and the confidence that they can win, which naturally makes them
[24:48.620 -> 24:50.120] drive better.
[24:50.120 -> 24:55.880] My engineer, when I tested for ART in GP3, made a very interesting comment that for every
[24:55.880 -> 25:05.800] tenth the car is behind, the driver will add two in lack of confidence. And so in fact, in attempting to wrangle a car,
[25:05.800 -> 25:10.000] which is not quite there, and the desperation,
[25:10.000 -> 25:12.200] remember, all of these young drivers are under pressure,
[25:12.200 -> 25:14.200] it's a lot of money moving through,
[25:14.200 -> 25:17.200] they're gaining a lot of support from somewhere,
[25:17.200 -> 25:19.800] be it their parents or their sponsors or so on.
[25:21.200 -> 25:27.120] In understanding that they're under pressure, you realize that in trying to wrangle a car
[25:27.120 -> 25:31.040] like that, that's not quite on the pace, they actually add negative performance.
[25:31.040 -> 25:38.480] Yes. And if I implied in any way that it was all down to the car, I apologize for that.
[25:38.480 -> 25:44.160] But say, for example, in Formula One is billed as, we know it's about the team that you're in,
[25:44.160 -> 25:48.800] and it's a career game, and you're trying to work your way up to the best team. Like Le
[25:48.800 -> 25:52.320] Clercq quickly went to Ferrari, so he's a head of science who kind of took a bit
[25:52.320 -> 25:58.080] of a detour around the midfield as well. But F2 and F3 are always billed as, it's
[25:58.080 -> 26:01.680] a spec series and that's kind of all that we say. So in our head we think that
[26:01.680 -> 26:08.440] means that there aren't those kind of, you know, it's not maybe a team game. Whereas I think what we're getting to here is very
[26:08.440 -> 26:13.560] much a team game. And the point you made in your TikTok that was most interesting was
[26:13.560 -> 26:18.840] that the mechanics of these teams are also career people trying to progress.
[26:18.840 -> 26:27.400] Yeah, they are. And they are, you know, you'll have a team like Carlin whereby, you know, will actually
[26:27.400 -> 26:32.600] market their, you know, from a recruitment perspective, will market themselves as a route
[26:32.600 -> 26:34.200] into Formula One.
[26:34.200 -> 26:42.160] You know, mechanics there know that they're in that paddock and that when someone in Formula
[26:42.160 -> 26:48.000] One is looking for somebody who's going to be good with the right attitude and so on, they will search in closest proximity.
[26:48.000 -> 26:52.280] And so these mechanics are moving through, they're seeking to do a good job, and these
[26:52.280 -> 26:56.960] teams are in constant communication with Formula One teams for engineers, mechanics, and so
[26:56.960 -> 26:57.960] on.
[26:57.960 -> 26:58.960] Yeah.
[26:58.960 -> 27:02.280] And so you were mentioning before the show that actually the progression can be very
[27:02.280 -> 27:04.920] quick for these guys.
[27:04.920 -> 27:05.920] Extremely quick. Extremely quick.
[27:05.920 -> 27:06.920] Extremely quick.
[27:06.920 -> 27:13.760] I mean, I know I've had multiple experiences throughout my career, especially when I was
[27:13.760 -> 27:22.340] at a junior level where actually your mechanic in a very regional single seater series suddenly
[27:22.340 -> 27:25.760] arrives in Formula One within two years.
[27:25.760 -> 27:27.560] And that's great.
[27:27.560 -> 27:30.720] I think that's awesome that those people get the opportunity to do that.
[27:30.720 -> 27:39.000] But what it does mean is those series need to allow a little bit of scope for the build
[27:39.000 -> 27:41.280] of the car, which there always will be.
[27:41.280 -> 27:46.640] That is the reality of racing, to make a difference and to allow
[27:46.640 -> 27:49.360] these people to demonstrate their ability and skill.
[27:49.360 -> 27:56.120] So, if you were, this is back to the budget thing, if you've got more of a budget in general,
[27:56.120 -> 28:00.220] well then you can get your basically the first draft of the good engineers and good mechanics
[28:00.220 -> 28:04.720] from the series below. So, that's just another way you can leverage to make your team more
[28:04.720 -> 28:05.600] attractive.
[28:05.600 -> 28:14.080] Quite, quite so. And so much of spec racing is dominated by quality of workmanship because
[28:14.080 -> 28:27.560] actually you arrive at the point where there are very small tolerances in car build between what is good and what is bad, or what is good and what
[28:27.560 -> 28:35.600] is suboptimal. Actually, you're relying as much on your mechanics being able to do this
[28:35.600 -> 28:37.480] as your engineers being able to know about it.
[28:37.480 -> 28:42.040] So, I came at this from, I'll admit, from a negative point of view because I was having
[28:42.040 -> 28:49.360] various debates and arguments with people. So, it's easy to use this to knock down certain people's junior series titles. But I guess you
[28:49.360 -> 28:54.720] could also look at it as, let's look at some of the guys in the more midfield or lower budget
[28:54.720 -> 28:58.800] teams and go, well, maybe they're actually doing a better job than it appears as well.
[28:58.800 -> 29:05.080] So you could make that into a positive as well. I mean, I think it's the nature of any sport, honestly.
[29:05.080 -> 29:12.000] Every football player joins a sequence of teams as they move through the regional ranks
[29:12.000 -> 29:16.800] and potentially up into the Premier League.
[29:16.800 -> 29:21.600] So who they were playing with, whether they got the service they needed.
[29:21.600 -> 29:23.120] I'm not a football aficionado.
[29:23.120 -> 29:24.520] No, but keep trying.
[29:24.520 -> 29:25.120] It's fun to watch.
[29:25.760 -> 29:30.400] You get what I mean. While I stumble, you understand what I'm saying conceptually,
[29:30.400 -> 29:37.360] that that's the nature of sport. I don't think we can complain vehemently about the realities of
[29:37.360 -> 29:37.860] sport.
[29:38.400 -> 29:43.760] Yeah. So I guess you're bringing up a situation where you could be in one of the back of the
[29:43.760 -> 29:45.520] field teams and maybe finish
[29:45.520 -> 29:50.000] third in the championship and garner more attention. Like, if you're taking the economy
[29:50.000 -> 29:57.360] route, I don't have the money to go to the top teams. But it also seems like this is kind of an
[29:57.360 -> 30:07.160] issue for Formula 2, in the sense that there are drivers who are clearly good enough to be in Formula 2, but also clearly never
[30:07.160 -> 30:11.480] going to be good enough, or at least at that moment in time, to progress to Formula 1.
[30:11.480 -> 30:17.760] But because they have money, and because money is a performance differentiator in the series,
[30:17.760 -> 30:18.760] they stick around.
[30:18.760 -> 30:26.080] And is that a problem for F2, in a sense that they want to be promoting the younger drivers and getting the best because
[30:26.720 -> 30:29.200] that's less seats available for people coming up.
[30:29.920 -> 30:38.400] I mean, the reduction in cost of the primary feeder series is paramount. I think everybody
[30:38.400 -> 30:48.600] agrees that to open that level of motorsport to the highest number of people. I think that the reality of the
[30:48.600 -> 30:55.120] scenario is that you're dealing with a pinnacle scenario. So those first few teams, anybody
[30:55.120 -> 30:59.000] who's serious about moving through to Formula One or serious about winning a Formula Two
[30:59.000 -> 31:09.020] championship needs to be in a car that's capable of that. I think without those second, third, fourth year drivers
[31:09.020 -> 31:12.240] continuing on in that age group,
[31:12.240 -> 31:15.720] there are teams that wouldn't be able to fill their seats.
[31:15.720 -> 31:19.320] And actually what those drivers are doing,
[31:19.320 -> 31:22.240] and I think Bruno and Michelle said something very similar
[31:22.240 -> 31:25.480] on the F2 website a few weeks back.
[31:26.320 -> 31:31.440] What those drivers do play the role of is, is, is a benchmark of the quality
[31:31.440 -> 31:34.040] of each individual year of the series.
[31:34.040 -> 31:39.280] So, you know, drivers like Ralph Boshong, Nisani, who've been around, you see
[31:39.280 -> 31:43.440] their, their track record of results as they've been in the series for multiple
[31:43.440 -> 31:45.360] years, show you how
[31:45.360 -> 31:49.560] good or not the current year of races is.
[31:49.560 -> 31:51.920] So actually they are really performing a role in my view.
[31:51.920 -> 31:52.920] A benchmark.
[31:52.920 -> 31:53.920] Yeah.
[31:53.920 -> 31:54.920] Right.
[31:54.920 -> 31:59.840] That's, look, look, that's the reality of New York life, Matt.
[31:59.840 -> 32:00.840] If you can't be bothered.
[32:00.840 -> 32:03.640] I'm going to walk down there with a golf club and end this person.
[32:03.640 -> 32:04.640] If you-
[32:04.640 -> 32:08.960] They honked through Alex's entire last answer non-stop, just on the horn.
[32:08.960 -> 32:11.360] And I'm so over it.
[32:11.360 -> 32:16.000] And I'd like to apologize to the listeners because I can't be bothered to edit this particular part
[32:16.000 -> 32:20.800] out. So just know that Matt doesn't care about you enough to move out into the countryside.
[32:20.800 -> 32:27.240] It's a conversation we've had many, many times. But angry New Yorkers aside, Matt, where are we going?
[32:27.240 -> 32:36.120] What I wanted to know is, what do you do if you get to Formula 2 and you have, say, you
[32:36.120 -> 32:41.760] believe in yourself, but you're on the economy route, and you get there and you just don't
[32:41.760 -> 32:46.720] quite have the budget to be in a team, to get yourself noticed in a way that would promote you.
[32:46.720 -> 32:52.020] Where, like, sort of at each level, like, what's the – is there like a side load?
[32:52.020 -> 32:53.320] Is there an alternate route?
[32:53.320 -> 32:58.640] I mean, we saw Nick DeVries get his chance after going through a bunch of different series.
[32:58.640 -> 33:08.580] Where would you go if you weren't in F2 to still, like – it used to be like I think used to be popular but is there something like that now that's my question.
[33:09.520 -> 33:24.840] You can make it work the guy would say is our most recent champion for the page for mp you know we look at the dominance of pramer over the previous few seasons and then mp suddenly rise to the front he's managed to work with that team.
[33:26.680 -> 33:33.600] P suddenly rise to the front, he's managed to work with that team and make it happen. That's over a number of seasons of the championship though and gaining an understanding of the
[33:33.600 -> 33:40.360] car. You can aim to try to outperform whatever car you're in in a very similar way to the
[33:40.360 -> 33:49.520] way Enzo Fittipaldi has throughout this season. Or yeah, you can try a tangential route
[33:49.520 -> 33:55.200] in the same way that Nick DeVries has. I think the reality of the scenario is if you are a driver
[33:55.200 -> 34:01.280] without the funding to continue into Formula 2, by the time you arrive there, unless you're going
[34:01.280 -> 34:05.520] to put in an extremely special performance, you need to be already
[34:05.520 -> 34:11.040] connected into an F1 academy who are paying the bills. I think the magic happens before that.
[34:11.040 -> 34:11.680] Is it?
[34:11.680 -> 34:15.840] Quite honestly, ideally in karting, realistically at the moment.
[34:16.800 -> 34:20.160] But barring that, you're going, you're taking a dog leg somewhere. Yeah.
[34:20.160 -> 34:30.900] Oh, see in karting, this is what I wonder, because there's lots of stories about, you know, young drivers having to like run engines in for say, like Nico Rosberg or Lewis Hamilton.
[34:30.900 -> 34:32.820] So you're kind of, you're there on the kart circuit.
[34:32.820 -> 34:35.620] You have got dreams of going, oh, well, I could be up there.
[34:35.620 -> 34:36.820] I know I'm brilliant.
[34:36.820 -> 34:41.700] But really, everybody knows who is the Nico Rosberg and who is the Hamilton
[34:41.700 -> 34:43.700] once you get to the kind of FIA karting level.
[34:43.760 -> 34:45.360] Rosberg and who is the Hamilton once you get to the kind of FIA karting level?
[34:52.800 -> 34:57.040] Yeah, I mean, karting is its own thing and has its own set of conditions for victory as well. So it's a case of getting your head around it as quickly as possible.
[34:59.440 -> 35:07.920] It's a magically pressurizing, incredibly pressurizing thing to say to an eight or a ten year old,
[35:07.920 -> 35:15.200] look, you know, if you don't win these car races, your Formula One dream is over already before
[35:15.920 -> 35:22.000] you've actually even left Wilton Mill or whatever your, you know, regional car track is wherever you
[35:22.000 -> 35:25.520] are in the world. And I don't think it should be like that.
[35:28.240 -> 35:33.600] I'm not saying it should be like that. I just think that that's the way it is at the moment.
[35:33.600 -> 35:37.600] So were you that guy though? Was everybody looking across, like as you got into your
[35:37.600 -> 35:43.040] kart and everyone's like, yeah, we know, we know that's Alex. He's on his way up to the race cars.
[35:44.000 -> 35:49.960] Alex, he's on his way up to the race cars. We actually did karting at a very budget level at that point.
[35:49.960 -> 35:57.480] We really, in comparison to others, mostly because my schooling was a dominant factor
[35:57.480 -> 36:04.240] and my mum won a lot of arguments with regards to schooling.
[36:04.240 -> 36:06.280] I mean, I went through to sort of university
[36:06.280 -> 36:08.200] and so on and so forth.
[36:08.200 -> 36:13.520] We did about 12 race weekends a year where the staple was, you know, 35, 40.
[36:13.520 -> 36:14.520] Oh, wow.
[36:14.520 -> 36:30.600] But no, I think there's just a whole lot of kids in a whole lot of carts and it's a mess. How those organizations discern which drivers they will take is based on scouting and hearsay
[36:30.600 -> 36:34.000] and continued evaluation of the marketplace.
[36:34.000 -> 36:37.280] And that's a professional job in itself.
[36:37.280 -> 36:44.600] So yeah, if I knew how to get into a Formula One academy from eight years old, I think
[36:44.600 -> 36:45.440] I would have been in one.
[36:46.840 -> 36:49.080] But I don't.
[36:49.120 -> 36:53.520] Even at the time you were trying to come through karting, already F1 teams and
[36:53.520 -> 36:56.440] academies were scouting at that karting level.
[36:57.360 -> 36:57.760] Yeah.
[36:57.840 -> 37:03.640] I mean, with McLaren, we're active at that level and indeed, you know,
[37:04.320 -> 37:06.600] organizations like the Racing Steps Foundation
[37:06.600 -> 37:08.240] that brought drivers like Oliver Turvey
[37:08.240 -> 37:10.400] and Oliver Rowland through,
[37:10.400 -> 37:13.500] were scouting at a karting level.
[37:13.500 -> 37:16.140] So drivers are picked up extremely young, yes.
[37:16.140 -> 37:19.160] Okay, so I know, and I'm getting personal and being nosy,
[37:19.160 -> 37:20.400] and now I know about, you know,
[37:20.400 -> 37:22.520] the spousal disputes in your household,
[37:22.520 -> 37:29.440] which is incredibly intrusive. But at what point as a young carter, not necessarily yourself, but maybe someone who
[37:29.440 -> 37:34.000] doesn't end up going to cars, do you realize, hang on, you look around and you go, there's
[37:34.000 -> 37:37.920] no option left. There's no option left for me now. It's all been decided.
[37:38.720 -> 37:46.400] I think there's a point and it's something where when drivers...
[37:48.160 -> 37:54.320] There are a couple of drivers who are younger than me who share sponsorship partners, for example,
[37:54.320 -> 38:02.800] or share spaces, be they the BRDC or whatever, who in their great misguided...
[38:09.080 -> 38:15.600] who in their great misguided, through a misguided seek of information have decided to ask me advice which is not an advisable position to take.
[38:15.600 -> 38:30.160] I find myself at a crossroads where I have to what is, what is your funding situation and be really honest with them about what the reality is, because every driver in that
[38:30.160 -> 38:34.080] scenario needs that down to earth person with a foot on the ground, which is
[38:34.080 -> 38:37.200] just say, you know, let's get real here.
[38:37.280 -> 38:39.400] Who is supporting, who is supporting this?
[38:39.620 -> 38:40.700] Who is backing you up?
[38:40.740 -> 38:41.140] Okay.
[38:41.380 -> 38:46.640] You might be better now connecting yourself in to a original equipment
[38:46.640 -> 38:51.920] manufacturer or a manufacturer for sports cars and taking off down that route and having
[38:51.920 -> 38:57.040] a great career doing that rather than pursuing a dream.
[38:57.040 -> 39:04.960] But at the end, you know, careers turn around and magic things happen on the racetrack and
[39:04.960 -> 39:06.480] you get the right car and the
[39:06.480 -> 39:11.200] right engineer for a year and take off to IndyCar or Formula One. So who am I to judge?
[39:11.920 -> 39:18.640] Well, and this brings up to me two things from the driver's perspective, because you've climbed
[39:18.640 -> 39:26.480] this ladder to a certain extent. Because when I look at it from the outside, I'm like, okay, carding, FIA carding,
[39:26.480 -> 39:32.320] F4, F3, F2, it all seems like a step change. So what I'm curious about from a driver's point of
[39:32.320 -> 39:37.600] view is, is there a point where you go from one series to the next, where that change in terms
[39:37.600 -> 39:42.560] of competition isn't a step change, it's like exponential. You show up and you're like, whoa!
[39:43.200 -> 39:45.040] And the same thing with the equipment.
[39:45.040 -> 39:47.680] Is there a point at which you climb into one of the cars and you're just like, oh,
[39:47.680 -> 39:54.480] this is done my head in. I was not prepared for the violence of this change. And where is that
[39:54.480 -> 40:07.160] on the ladder? Yeah. F3 level is where that happens. So F3 level is the step change. Because most of those F4 or Formula Ford series are quite
[40:07.160 -> 40:16.280] regional. So you end up racing against the subsection of the marketplace. And also, they're
[40:16.280 -> 40:27.360] pretty instant access. There are a lot of people in those series who've cobbled together an amount that they can just about reach to reach that level
[40:27.360 -> 40:34.680] and are running things on a bit of a shoestring. So, you know, if you've got a reasonable amount
[40:34.680 -> 40:39.960] of backing by hook or by crook and a reasonable amount of talent by hook or by crook, you
[40:39.960 -> 40:46.480] can make your way through that level. Then you hit F3 level and the step change is that
[40:46.480 -> 40:52.800] the cars are pulling proper downforce and have proper, proper G. Everybody who arrives
[40:52.800 -> 40:59.600] at that level is raising an amount of budget where either their family believe in them,
[40:59.600 -> 41:13.000] sometimes incorrectly, but often correctly, or someone thinks that that driver is capable of making
[41:13.000 -> 41:21.680] it to the top of single-seater racing, enough to put a life, by any stretch, a life-changing
[41:21.680 -> 41:27.600] amount of finance on the line on an annual basis to achieve that.
[41:27.600 -> 41:31.840] And is that the financial step as well at F3 level? Is that where it really steps up?
[41:32.560 -> 41:36.000] Yeah, and I think yes it is. Yes it is. Because all of a sudden you start...
[41:36.720 -> 41:45.000] The big costs for race teams are our engine supply, personnel, and transport.
[41:45.120 -> 41:46.760] Those are the big costs
[41:46.760 -> 41:49.320] because you start flying people around the world.
[41:49.320 -> 41:54.320] Most of those F3 series are suddenly world
[41:55.000 -> 41:56.260] or at least European.
[41:57.880 -> 42:01.680] You start having more complex and powerful engines
[42:01.680 -> 42:02.920] which come on leases,
[42:02.920 -> 42:07.040] which are then more and more expensive,
[42:07.040 -> 42:09.640] and you need more people to run them.
[42:09.640 -> 42:12.280] So that's where the big step change is.
[42:12.280 -> 42:18.880] And with that comes, because everybody who's arrived on that grid has thought it through.
[42:18.880 -> 42:19.880] You know what I mean?
[42:19.880 -> 42:26.400] There's no one there who has not got a skin in the game big time.
[42:28.560 -> 42:33.440] Do you remember, I don't know if many of your viewers and listeners will remember,
[42:33.440 -> 42:40.480] moving from primary school sport and then their first rugby match or football match or
[42:40.480 -> 42:44.080] hockey match or whatever the sport, cricket match, or whatever the sport was they played
[42:43.780 -> 42:46.720] match or cocky match or whatever the sport, cricket match or whatever the sport was they played in their secondary school.
[42:46.720 -> 42:50.620] And all of a sudden the ball is moving in fast forward.
[42:50.620 -> 42:51.620] That's what it feels like.
[42:51.620 -> 42:52.620] No, no.
[42:52.620 -> 42:57.460] I remember our local village team at 16 qualified for like a multi-county tournament.
[42:57.460 -> 43:01.640] And then we ended up playing in London against some of the London teams and the pace of the
[43:01.640 -> 43:09.040] ball, the way it moved through the air, we got absolutely skittled and demolished. In our second game I won the toss as
[43:09.040 -> 43:13.560] captain, bit of a flex there, and I opted to bat first because I knew that we were
[43:13.560 -> 43:18.000] so out of our league that I thought we could have an early lunch because we'd
[43:18.000 -> 43:23.240] all get bowled out very quickly and then we could go home and get back and go to
[43:23.240 -> 43:28.000] a party, for which I confessed to and I got disciplined by the governing body.
[43:28.000 -> 43:32.000] But that's an aside. That's an aside.
[43:32.000 -> 43:35.000] I like the point that you made about the fact that, you know,
[43:35.000 -> 43:40.000] anyone who's there in F3 by that point, if they're not funded specifically by their parents,
[43:40.000 -> 43:46.560] I mean, they really mean it. And you forget about the amount of belief someone has to put into a driver at that point.
[43:46.560 -> 43:49.560] And it's already like a 10, 15 year journey.
[43:49.560 -> 43:51.840] I think the example, if you go back to like the nineties
[43:51.840 -> 43:54.180] and Damon Hill, basically riding on bikes
[43:54.180 -> 43:59.180] and not doing carts and stepping into cars after 30,
[43:59.200 -> 44:02.280] I'm guessing that died quite a long time ago.
[44:03.920 -> 44:10.040] Yeah, if you're looking at a Formula One career now, I mean, anything's possible, but it wouldn't
[44:10.040 -> 44:15.960] be the direct advice. You know, it's a low percentage option, isn't it, if you're looking
[44:15.960 -> 44:18.720] at a real Formula One career, seriously.
[44:18.720 -> 44:25.360] Okay, so 42 podcaster, probably not going to jink now into F3.
[44:25.360 -> 44:26.560] I believe in you. Honestly, I believe in you.
[44:26.560 -> 44:27.360] Actually, I did have a...
[44:27.360 -> 44:31.200] I think you should write to Helmut Marko tomorrow.
[44:31.200 -> 44:36.800] So semi-serious question here. Say that you look at me sim racing, and you have seen me
[44:36.800 -> 44:42.000] sim racing. I'm a bit better than when you had me in that GT sim a little while ago. But let's say
[44:42.000 -> 44:46.400] I'm confident and I can operate a car in a sim. Obviously,
[44:46.400 -> 44:50.960] I'm a few seconds off. What is that first level in that ladder where I jump into it
[44:50.960 -> 44:56.720] and the physical violence of it would be a real test? And let's assume that I'm reasonably
[44:56.720 -> 45:02.320] strong, I'm reasonably capable. Where does your average office bod start to struggle?
[45:02.320 -> 45:06.640] So you're asking me the point where on the single-seater ladder where you would
[45:06.640 -> 45:11.800] jump in a car and basically be overwhelmed by it.
[45:11.800 -> 45:13.360] I can't even operate the vehicle.
[45:13.360 -> 45:16.840] You know, like say, obviously, I'm not going to be as fast as someone on the sim,
[45:16.840 -> 45:18.480] but I can operate the vehicle.
[45:18.480 -> 45:19.480] I can operate the sim.
[45:19.480 -> 45:28.840] You know, I think that the Ferrari, for example,, have their Corsa Cliente program where just people who
[45:28.840 -> 45:34.160] with the means can do it, to do it, can buy a Ferrari Formula One car, be taught to drive
[45:34.160 -> 45:50.420] it over a day or two days or three days, building up to it, and drive it around a circuit. I mean, I think it's a misunderstanding that racing cars in themselves are difficult
[45:50.420 -> 45:58.220] to drive. Some historic ones are, but modern race cars are easy to drive. That's the point
[45:58.220 -> 46:06.720] of them. Once you've got over the sort of foibles of them, you them, the weird stuff that race cars do.
[46:06.720 -> 46:10.520] But that's a relatively simple, you've just got to understand that this one does that
[46:10.520 -> 46:13.520] and that one does this.
[46:13.520 -> 46:19.820] What would blow the, I believe, the model, and we're not very good at this in racing
[46:19.820 -> 46:27.840] because we're very macho about it and we're very dismissive about it.
[46:27.840 -> 46:32.720] We reduce the reality of how tough it is.
[46:32.720 -> 46:39.120] I think that many, many people feel that they could jump in a modern single-seated car and
[46:39.120 -> 46:40.560] be sort of...
[46:40.560 -> 46:44.920] If you ask somebody in the street, where do you think you'd be in Formula 3 this year?
[46:44.920 -> 46:49.440] I think many, many people would go, I don't know, I could probably make it into sort of the top half.
[46:49.440 -> 46:51.120] Yeah, top three, top four.
[46:51.120 -> 46:52.960] 10 seconds off the back, that's where I'd be.
[46:54.320 -> 46:59.600] But I think that it's our fault in motorsport for belittling that challenge because there's
[46:59.600 -> 47:04.480] nobody really to stand there and say, guys, it's actually quite hard because so on and so forth.
[47:04.480 -> 47:05.440] really to stand there and say, guys, it's actually quite hard because so on and so forth.
[47:11.200 -> 47:21.360] So I think that that's what would blow you away is how fast you have to go to actually be competitive. It's outrageous the level of driving going on in terms of a skill.
[47:22.000 -> 47:26.780] I mean, yeah, it's so tricky to explain that.
[47:26.780 -> 47:31.620] Well, Matt, I think you and I have been lucky at an amateur level that we've been in carts,
[47:31.620 -> 47:36.020] which we can physically handle, and we've had some real top drivers in front of us.
[47:36.020 -> 47:37.740] And you go, I'm doing the same thing.
[47:37.740 -> 47:39.780] I'm turning the corner the same.
[47:39.780 -> 47:42.720] And they're just getting further and further and further away.
[47:42.720 -> 47:44.860] It's all those little tiny marginal things.
[47:44.860 -> 47:49.760] They just do that slight bit better. But over the course of a lap, it's a second, a second
[47:49.760 -> 47:54.440] and a half. It's amazing how it adds up. But I think it's a TV problem with sports in general,
[47:54.440 -> 47:57.880] and especially because you watch someone driving a car and you're like, well, I drove a car.
[47:57.880 -> 48:00.160] I ain't driving a car. I could drive around the turn like that.
[48:00.160 -> 48:03.240] It's just sitting down, isn't it? Yeah. Golf is the same thing. You look at golf
[48:03.240 -> 48:09.120] on TV, you're like, well, that doesn't look so hard. They just hit the ball and it goes where they want it to. And then you try to play golf
[48:09.120 -> 48:12.320] and you're like, oh, okay, well, yeah. All right. Turns out there was more to it than I thought.
[48:13.200 -> 48:17.280] I think it's something that's wrapped up in driving as well, specifically.
[48:20.080 -> 48:31.800] And I do think that many, many people have driving wrapped up in a very egotistical bubble.
[48:31.800 -> 48:39.520] They believe that it's something that you should be able to sort of automatically do.
[48:39.520 -> 48:46.760] And to dissociate what is driving a race car as a sport, you're not competing against the
[48:46.760 -> 48:50.960] car, you're not competing against the track, you're competing against the others and they're
[48:50.960 -> 48:51.960] quite good.
[48:51.960 -> 48:56.520] At risk of stating the obvious, they're quite good.
[48:56.520 -> 49:03.940] And that's the thing that really shocks you if you come to a high level motorsport without
[49:03.940 -> 49:05.520] really preparing yourself.
[49:05.520 -> 49:09.840] Yeah, and just the shock of everybody just disappearing off the grid and then you don't
[49:09.840 -> 49:14.720] see them for a few laps until they all roar past you, I think would be the biggest shock.
[49:14.720 -> 49:21.280] Do you know what, one day, I'm obviously podcasting with one midlife crisis, I would love a second
[49:21.280 -> 49:25.520] midlife crisis where I enter a enter like a local series and looking
[49:25.520 -> 49:30.320] around there are series that you can jump into that aren't like, I know I need the kids to
[49:30.320 -> 49:34.160] bog off and stop eating food in my house, but there are series where you can go and
[49:34.160 -> 49:39.760] and like you said most of them are spec series where you pay a team to go and jump in a car.
[49:39.760 -> 49:44.400] I'd be curious to see if I could go and have a thrash around. Are you never tempted to be like
[49:44.400 -> 49:47.120] a Stig and just like white helmet, no one knows who you
[49:47.120 -> 49:52.200] are and just go and see like the Mighty Ducks going and playing on a playground against
[49:52.200 -> 49:55.240] a street hockey team?
[49:55.240 -> 49:56.240] It's always interesting.
[49:56.240 -> 50:04.360] I mean, people who race very competently at club level can be extremely good, especially
[50:04.360 -> 50:06.300] if you jump in a car which
[50:06.300 -> 50:09.700] they know, a car in a series and you're jumping in for the weekend.
[50:09.700 -> 50:16.740] There are many, many stories I know of world-class professional racing drivers going for a bit
[50:16.740 -> 50:28.240] of a promo to a Mazda MX-5 Cup or similar and getting absolutely hammered by Mikey Mazda who you know who knows
[50:28.240 -> 50:33.760] his car inside out built it himself and I've got great respect for those people they're they're
[50:33.760 -> 50:39.440] they they are they're the true petrol heads and that's why the Mighty Ducks played that street
[50:39.440 -> 50:43.440] hockey game. Alex we've taken up far too much of your time thank you so much for being really
[50:43.440 -> 50:48.640] generous with your knowledge and giving us I I think, an appreciation of what these guys and girls
[50:48.640 -> 50:54.000] are going through as they climb that F1 ladder, the road to glory. But you mentioned classic
[50:54.000 -> 50:59.440] cars. I do have to recommend to everybody to go and check out your classic car videos.
[50:59.440 -> 51:03.440] It always looks so... The onboard's brilliant, and I know we geeked out on the equipment
[51:03.440 -> 51:08.880] and cameras for those onboard shots, but the thing that always strikes me is the size of the steering wheels
[51:08.880 -> 51:09.880] in those classic cars.
[51:09.880 -> 51:11.800] It's like you're driving a big dinner plate.
[51:11.800 -> 51:17.120] Well, they just take a tree, go around the outside, hollow the middle out and shove it
[51:17.120 -> 51:18.120] on.
[51:18.120 -> 51:19.120] That's all they are.
[51:19.120 -> 51:20.120] Got to wield the willow.
[51:20.120 -> 51:24.440] But the joy that you have in driving those classic cars is obvious, and it's great racing
[51:24.440 -> 51:26.280] to watch, and they look a handful.
[51:26.280 -> 51:28.880] They are a handful. It's great fun.
[51:28.880 -> 51:32.880] I love the people and the environment of it as well.
[51:32.880 -> 51:36.880] It's great to spend a weekend around people that are just truly passionate about motorsport
[51:36.880 -> 51:41.880] and race to race some dream cars, which is absolutely awesome.
[51:41.880 -> 51:44.880] Well, I'm sure we'll link to all the show notes below
[51:44.880 -> 51:46.720] to all of Alex Brundle's videos,
[51:46.720 -> 51:52.240] YouTube channels, and now, because he's still hanging on to youngness and relevancy, a TikTok
[51:52.240 -> 51:53.560] channel as well.
[51:53.560 -> 51:57.080] Alex, thanks for your time and have a great Christmas and New Year.
[51:57.080 -> 51:58.440] Thanks guys, see you later.
[51:58.440 -> 52:02.880] We hope that you will join us in the New Year as well where we'll be having a predictions
[52:02.880 -> 52:10.760] show I believe with me and Chris and hopefully we'll get summers on because I'm jealous of Matt and Matthew Summerfield
[52:10.760 -> 52:15.400] doing their Tech Times without me. So I want a bit of Matthew Summerfield time as well.
[52:15.400 -> 52:19.240] So we'll get that episode out to you, I think on New Year's Day and we've got loads of great
[52:19.240 -> 52:24.680] off-season content lined up. But whenever we see you next, work hard, be kind and have
[52:24.680 -> 52:25.840] fun. This was Missed Apex Podcast. lined up but whenever we see you next work hard be kind and have fun this was
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