Ayrton Senna & F1 in Brazil stories with Peter Windsor

Peter Windsor is back on the Inside Line F1 Podcast. In this episode, Peter shares some of his favourite memories from Formula 1's time in Brazil. 

"Without Emerson Fittipaldi, we wouldn't have had an Ayrton Senna or Nelson Piquet," says Peter. This episode is a must-listen; co-hosted by Soumil Arora.

Join our race watchalong sessions with the award-winning journalist & team manager (Williams & Ferrari), Peter Windsor. 

On the live stream, you can discuss with Peter & our hosts various race-related topics - performances, insights & more. Join us to enhance your real-time race viewing experience!

Get your FREE access pass for our race watchalong session with Peter Windsor on Paytm Insider.

(Season 2022, Episode 67)

Follow our hosts on Twitter: Peter Windsor & Soumil Arora

Image courtesy: Mclaren

**Navigating the Complexities of Formula One: A Journey Through the Brazilian Grand Prix**

In this episode of the Inside Line F1 podcast, Peter Windsor takes us on a captivating journey through the intricacies of the Brazilian Grand Prix. From the optimal location on the Formula One calendar to the evolution of the Interlagos circuit, Peter shares his expert insights and personal anecdotes, painting a vivid picture of this iconic race.

**The Ideal Setting for the Brazilian Grand Prix:**

Peter emphasizes the unique atmosphere and energy of the Brazilian Grand Prix when held at the start of the Formula One season. He fondly recalls the carnival-like ambiance of Rio de Janeiro, where the race was previously held, and suggests that the Brazilian Grand Prix belongs at the forefront of the calendar, much like the Australian Grand Prix traditionally marks the end of the season.

**Interlagos: A Circuit Steeped in History and Evolution:**

Peter delves into the history of the Interlagos circuit, highlighting its distinctive features and the challenges it presents to drivers. He reminisces about the original layout, with its iconic Curva del Sol, a high-speed right-hand corner that no longer exists. While acknowledging the safety improvements made to the circuit, Peter expresses a tinge of nostalgia for the danger and excitement of the old track.

**The Greatness of Ayrton Senna and Nelson Piquet:**

The conversation shifts to the legendary Brazilian drivers Ayrton Senna and Nelson Piquet. Peter acknowledges Senna's exceptional talent and his status as a hero in Brazil. However, he also sheds light on the controversies surrounding Piquet, particularly the circumstances that led to his 1981 World Championship victory. Peter suggests that Piquet's achievements may have been overshadowed by Senna's brilliance and the questionable tactics employed by his team.

**The Emergence of Felipe Drugovich:**

Peter expresses disappointment at the lack of opportunities for young Brazilian drivers in Formula One. He discusses Felipe Drugovich's recent test drive with Aston Martin and questions the team's intentions, given their focus on promoting Lance Stroll. Peter believes Drugovich should have waited for a more promising opportunity, highlighting the success of Nick de Vries in securing a Mercedes seat.

**Memorable Performances at the Brazilian Grand Prix:**

Peter reflects on some of the most remarkable performances in the history of the Brazilian Grand Prix. He recalls Carlos Reutemann's dominant victories in 1977 and 1978, Felipe Massa's masterful drive in 2008, and Lewis Hamilton's stunning wet-weather triumph in 2021. Peter also mentions Jackie Stewart's incredible performance in 1973, driving a short-wheelbase Tyrrell on a bumpy track.

**Anticipation for the 2022 Brazilian Grand Prix:**

Looking ahead to the upcoming Brazilian Grand Prix, Peter expresses his curiosity about Max Verstappen's potential dominance. He wonders how many places Verstappen can gain if he starts from the back of the grid, given Red Bull's current advantage. Peter also discusses the challenges teams face in wet conditions, citing the recent issues with standing water and Renault's engine failure in Singapore.

**Conclusion:**

Peter Windsor's expert analysis and personal anecdotes provide a comprehensive and engaging overview of the Brazilian Grand Prix. He highlights the circuit's unique characteristics, pays tribute to legendary drivers, and offers insights into the challenges and opportunities facing young Brazilian drivers. As the Formula One season approaches its conclusion, the Brazilian Grand Prix promises to deliver another chapter of thrilling racing and memorable moments.

# Inside Line F1 Podcast Episode 67 Summary: Peter Windsor's Favorite Memories from Formula 1 in Brazil

**Peter Windsor's Fond Recollections of Formula 1 in Brazil:**

- Peter Windsor reminisces about Formula 1's time in Brazil, emphasizing the significant impact of Emerson Fittipaldi on the sport's history.
- Fittipaldi's achievements, including his two Formula 1 World Championships, are credited with inspiring a generation of Brazilian drivers, including Ayrton Senna and Nelson Piquet.

**Technical Insights into the Upcoming Brazilian Grand Prix:**

- Windsor analyzes the technical challenges of the Interlagos circuit, highlighting the need for a balance between downforce and top speed.
- He predicts that Ferrari will be competitive due to its aerodynamic efficiency, while Alpine and McLaren may face difficulties.
- The Alfa Tauri team's struggles with aero efficiency are discussed, emphasizing the challenges of finding the right balance for the car.

**Predictions for the Race:**

- Windsor expresses his belief that Max Verstappen is likely to win the race if the conditions are dry, given Red Bull's dominance this season.
- However, he acknowledges that wet weather could potentially lead to a more unpredictable outcome.

**Upcoming Live Race Watchalong Session with Peter Windsor:**

- The podcast promotes a live race watchalong session with Peter Windsor, offering fans an opportunity to discuss the race in real time with the expert commentator.
- Listeners are encouraged to check the link in the podcast description for more information on how to sign up for this exclusive event.

**Conclusion:**

- The podcast concludes with a note of anticipation for the upcoming Brazilian Grand Prix, expressing hope for a competitive and exciting race.

[00:00.000 -> 00:20.880] Hey, folks.
[00:20.880 -> 00:23.640] Welcome back to the InsightLine F1 podcast.
[00:23.640 -> 00:27.960] This time out, we're going to be talking about the Brazilian GP with Peter Wintzer.
[00:28.120 -> 00:33.080] Now, as we discussed, we're going to have one for a live race watch along on PTM Insider
[00:33.240 -> 00:35.400] for this weekend, and we'd love for you to join in.
[00:35.560 -> 00:38.560] So don't forget to check out the link in the description to join,
[00:38.720 -> 00:41.320] to figure out how you can actually join us over there
[00:41.480 -> 00:45.040] as we discuss lots of things, including driving styles and all the drivers,
[00:45.040 -> 00:49.840] the race strategy, all the action, and you get the chance to interact with Peter as the race goes on.
[00:49.840 -> 00:54.960] So it should be a ton of fun. But on the subject of Brazil, let's actually get Peter's take on so
[00:54.960 -> 01:00.800] many fun things. And Peter, firstly, welcome back to the Inside Line F1 podcast. And the first thing
[01:00.800 -> 01:05.720] I really want to know your take on is how do you prefer Brazil as
[01:05.720 -> 01:10.000] a place where you'd like to see the last race of the season or the first race?
[01:10.000 -> 01:11.680] Because back in the day, we used to have that as well.
[01:11.680 -> 01:14.480] We used to have the Rio circuit starting off the season.
[01:14.480 -> 01:18.280] But what do you feel is the ideal location or the ideal time for Brazil on the Formula
[01:18.280 -> 01:19.280] One calendar?
[01:19.280 -> 01:21.000] Oh, I think it should be at the front of the calendar.
[01:21.000 -> 01:22.000] Definitely.
[01:22.000 -> 01:23.000] Yeah, you're absolutely right.
[01:23.000 -> 01:29.040] We used to have the Brazilian Grand Prix then, right at the start of the year, in some cases, Rio and also São Paulo.
[01:29.040 -> 01:34.960] And there's a certain atmosphere about the new year, the sunshine, the carnival feel of the
[01:34.960 -> 01:38.880] Brazilian Grand Prix at that time of year. That's not to say that it doesn't exist at the back end
[01:38.880 -> 01:43.280] of the year as well, but for me, that's always been Australian Grand Prix time. Call me an old
[01:43.280 -> 01:48.800] timer, but to me, it's always kind of nice to finish in Australia and then everybody goes off on holiday somewhere.
[01:48.800 -> 01:53.160] But Brazil has an energy to it, a bit like South Africa, which kind of belongs at the
[01:53.160 -> 01:59.040] start of the year. I've got very fond memories of the original Interlagos. I was lucky enough
[01:59.040 -> 02:07.040] to have been there in 74, I think was the first race. In 75, I think was the first race, 75 I think was the first race I went to, certainly there in 77.
[02:07.040 -> 02:14.320] And then Rio too was brilliant, loved it, loved the venue. Circuit was a little bit wonky, but
[02:14.320 -> 02:18.480] it was a great race. I think one thing, I know we're going to ask questions, but I think one
[02:18.480 -> 02:23.600] thing that's really interesting is given the weirdness of the two wet races we've just had
[02:23.600 -> 02:25.840] in Singapore and Japan, there's half a chance,
[02:25.840 -> 02:30.720] of course, it will be wet in Brazil. And that's, and it'll be interesting to see whether the teams
[02:30.720 -> 02:36.080] have got on top of the procedures and how we run in the wet. I mean, there are so many things that
[02:36.080 -> 02:40.320] have arisen from those two races that there'll be a lot of question marks, I think, going into Brazil.
[02:40.320 -> 02:45.200] Yeah, exactly. And as it always is over there, it's always a circuit that offers new challenges,
[02:45.200 -> 02:51.080] but somehow Interlagos always finds a way to be entertaining. I don't remember a boring
[02:51.080 -> 02:54.720] Brazilian Grand Prix for a very long time. And I want to know your thoughts on that.
[02:54.720 -> 02:59.360] Just what makes Interlagos so good? And also, why did we change the original layout? Because
[02:59.360 -> 03:03.800] as you mentioned, back in the day, we used to have a longer one, perhaps a crazy one
[03:03.800 -> 03:05.120] as well.
[03:10.160 -> 03:16.960] Yeah, I think Interlagos produces good racing because it's got lots of good corners, it's got a reasonably long straight and it's got a corner that rewards very good exits
[03:17.680 -> 03:26.600] before that long straight, which is good. And it's got high-speed braking, it's got medium-speed, high-speed, it's got hairpins,
[03:26.600 -> 03:30.680] it's undulating, the weather changes, the variables come into play.
[03:30.680 -> 03:34.480] So if you put all that together, it's much more than the average, relatively boring,
[03:34.480 -> 03:35.600] new Grand Prix circuit.
[03:35.600 -> 03:37.400] It's got a lot of stuff.
[03:37.400 -> 03:41.680] The other point, of course, as we were saying, the original Interlagos, it used to double
[03:41.680 -> 03:45.080] back on itself, if you like, and you can still, we're still using little
[03:45.080 -> 03:46.200] bits of that track.
[03:46.200 -> 03:51.560] But what we don't have anymore is the amazing Cervedel Sol, which was a constant radius,
[03:51.560 -> 03:53.400] very fast right hander.
[03:53.400 -> 03:58.680] It's now basically the car park area for all the B Division of the Formula One paddock.
[03:58.680 -> 04:01.000] The drivers and team owners and stuff park at the top.
[04:01.000 -> 04:09.880] But if you're next division, you park down what used to be the Cove del Sol. And of course, a lot of people today park their rental van there and get their stuff
[04:09.880 -> 04:11.040] out and walk to the track.
[04:11.040 -> 04:14.640] And they're probably not even thinking, I'm walking on the bit of road right here.
[04:14.640 -> 04:18.880] This is where Patrick Depayet was sideways in the six-wheel Tyrrell, or this is where
[04:18.880 -> 04:24.240] Jean-Pierre Jarier and Tom Price set the world on fire in the shadows, or where Carlos Reutemann
[04:24.240 -> 04:25.920] was balancing the
[04:25.920 -> 04:33.520] Ferrari 312 T2 on an edge. But I always think of those things, I think of Ronnie, I think of Mario,
[04:33.520 -> 04:38.800] I think of a lot of guys when I'm at that place where the Curva del Sol is one of the great
[04:38.800 -> 04:43.200] corners of Formula 1, sadly no longer with us. You reckon the changes have made the circuit
[04:43.200 -> 04:48.960] better or worse? Because as you mentioned, it still produces good racing but does it have the same character as the old Intel
[04:48.960 -> 04:56.080] Alcos? Well I mean part of the problem with that circuit was that turn one was really really quick,
[04:56.080 -> 05:01.440] turn two was really quick. Indeed it was kind of designed as an oval as well as an infield track
[05:01.440 -> 05:12.080] and what you have turns one and two and I I think even three, were parts of an original oval. And so it was so quick and they were banked. And then I think it
[05:12.080 -> 05:17.680] was 78, there was a lot of, might have been 77, I can't remember, but at the end of the back straight
[05:17.680 -> 05:22.400] coming out of turn two, going into three, or into three, the track started breaking up, something
[05:22.400 -> 05:25.680] awful, and there were quite a lot of incidents there and people went off.
[05:25.680 -> 05:29.120] And I think it was just generally considered it was getting to be too quick.
[05:29.120 -> 05:31.420] There was no runoff area for any of those corners.
[05:31.720 -> 05:35.560] And if we had today's cars going around that circuit, I think you'd find, well,
[05:35.560 -> 05:37.240] it would be impossible, really. It'd be so quick.
[05:37.640 -> 05:41.280] So it's probably a good thing that we have the circuit layout that we have now.
[05:41.280 -> 05:44.600] And they kept a lot of the character of that original Interlagos.
[05:44.600 -> 05:49.640] So as a guy that on one side of my brain, I think I really miss Ronnie Peterson
[05:49.640 -> 05:57.400] sideways in a Lota 72 or Emerson or Jackie Stewart fighting the short wheelbase Tyrrell
[05:57.400 -> 06:03.160] around there in 73. I really miss all that. On the other side, what I don't miss is the
[06:03.160 -> 06:06.000] danger of it all, you know, the safer we can make it, the better really,
[06:06.000 -> 06:11.120] I think. So I think we've got a nice compromise there. That was not the only old layout that we
[06:11.120 -> 06:15.680] had as well. Back in the day, earlier in the season, Formula One used to travel all the way
[06:15.680 -> 06:19.920] through Rio. Now, were you a big fan of that layout? It's actually the place where they've
[06:19.920 -> 06:23.760] got the new Olympic Park, haven't they? Were you a big fan of that circuit? Well, I don't know about
[06:23.760 -> 06:27.120] the Olympic Park, but I was always a fan of the Brazilian Grand
[06:27.120 -> 06:31.840] Prix for sure, and I think I always preferred going to Rio to Sao Paulo. Who wouldn't? I
[06:31.840 -> 06:36.320] don't want to offend the Sao Pauloistas when I say that, but going to Sao Paulo is always
[06:36.320 -> 06:41.360] a bit of a production because of the pollution, the traffic, the airports miles from the city.
[06:41.360 -> 06:46.080] Well, because of the traffic, it's hours from the city. And in a Monday morning after
[06:46.080 -> 06:49.920] the race, you would wake up in a sweat wondering what time you should leave the hotel in order not
[06:49.920 -> 06:54.080] to miss the flight. Should I leave a five-hour margin or a seven-hour margin or whatever?
[06:54.080 -> 06:58.240] Rio is a completely different deal. You know, the whole place was buzzing and it was easy,
[06:58.240 -> 07:02.880] relatively easy to get in and out. We all stayed at the Sheraton on the beach, which is a very
[07:02.880 -> 07:10.240] dodgy beach, I've got to say. And there were some nasty incidents there. Nigel Mansell actually rescued Elio De Angelis from drowning on that
[07:10.240 -> 07:15.360] beach. And Jonathan Palmer, of course, had an incident when he was mugged. A few other things
[07:15.360 -> 07:20.640] went on, but, you know, I can remember running along the beach with Carlos Reutemann before the
[07:20.640 -> 07:25.680] 78 race, if I name a beach. You know, that's those things are pretty valuable, really.
[07:25.680 -> 07:32.000] I mean, they're gold, really, aren't they? Those moments. And so Rio was great. Yeah,
[07:32.000 -> 07:36.320] we'd go out there literally two weeks before the race, because everyone would be tyre testing for
[07:36.320 -> 07:41.120] two weeks. And so you're in that place for three weeks. And we were just like a family in that
[07:41.120 -> 07:50.480] hotel. I thought I had a lot of fun, obviously, but during the track every day, and it was hot, but you got into the rhythm of things, and the track itself was not
[07:50.480 -> 07:55.360] bad. It was flat. I mean, that was the thing about it, but it was, there was some quite nice corners.
[07:55.360 -> 07:59.920] There were, there was some reasonably quick corners in the first sector, if that's the right
[07:59.920 -> 08:02.880] word. Then you had the back straight, which is directly opposite the pits, which is always a
[08:02.880 -> 08:05.360] nice thing because you could look at top speeds.
[08:05.360 -> 08:08.640] And then the corner at the end of the straight was quite quick.
[08:08.640 -> 08:10.400] There were a couple of quick corners after that.
[08:10.400 -> 08:13.040] It was a little bit like Jerez in layout, I think.
[08:13.040 -> 08:14.040] And I liked it.
[08:14.040 -> 08:18.840] It was a great circuit and a great shame that it didn't continue like a lot of things in
[08:18.840 -> 08:20.400] Formula 1, to be honest.
[08:20.400 -> 08:24.920] But I've got very fond memories of driving back from the track there with Gil Villeneuve,
[08:24.920 -> 08:29.280] I think in a Fiat 127 or the Brazilian equivalent thereof one year.
[08:29.280 -> 08:33.720] And yeah, you know, that would have been what, 82, I guess.
[08:33.720 -> 08:39.000] And Gilles had this thing about, you know, don't stop for traffic lights.
[08:39.000 -> 08:42.080] And well, don't stop in general, really.
[08:42.080 -> 08:44.120] So don't stop for traffic lights.
[08:44.120 -> 08:46.000] But if there's a blockage, use the footpath or whatever
[08:46.000 -> 08:47.000] just to keep going.
[08:47.000 -> 08:49.000] So it was quite fun with Gil, and of course,
[08:49.000 -> 08:50.000] his judgment was brilliant.
[08:50.000 -> 08:54.000] And once or twice, we got into a couple of scrapes,
[08:54.000 -> 08:56.000] but it was a lot of fun.
[08:56.000 -> 09:00.000] That's a crazy story for a crazy little place.
[09:00.000 -> 09:02.000] I mean, genuinely, that is incredible to hear.
[09:02.000 -> 09:07.760] And I actually, speaking of Rio, remember a lot about those battles where we had the
[09:07.760 -> 09:08.760] likes of Senna, Mansell, Piquet.
[09:08.760 -> 09:11.720] But there's one thing I've always been confused about.
[09:11.720 -> 09:15.120] When we hear of Senna, we always think of the hero of Brazil.
[09:15.120 -> 09:20.360] But Nelson Piquet, one of these won the same number of championships, was one might claim.
[09:20.360 -> 09:24.960] It was also, okay, it depends on person to person, but many also rank him pretty highly.
[09:24.960 -> 09:25.000] But why do people not rate him as high as Evan Senna, especially mean, okay, it depends on person to person, but many also rank him pretty highly.
[09:25.000 -> 09:28.680] But why do people not rate him as high as Ed and Senna, especially back in Brazil where
[09:28.680 -> 09:33.320] Senna is considered to be, let's say, a phenomenon, but Piquet isn't quite as much?
[09:33.320 -> 09:35.400] Well, I think the Brazilians are quite astute, aren't they?
[09:35.400 -> 09:40.200] And they can see that Senna was a better driver than Nelson Piquet, probably, simple as that.
[09:40.200 -> 09:44.200] I think a better question, to be honest, is why Emerson Fittipaldi is on a higher pedestal
[09:44.200 -> 09:48.480] than the one on which he sits, because without Emerson, we may not have had
[09:50.080 -> 09:55.360] Senna or Piquet. I mean, he started it all and he was really good, Emerson, and he was at least as
[09:55.360 -> 10:00.640] good as Nelson, if not better, well, definitely better, I think, in my view. Nelson, I think the
[10:00.640 -> 10:05.200] problem with Nelson was that he drove for Bravo and it was always a bit sort of seedy, wasn't it?
[10:05.200 -> 10:10.920] The whole thing about, you know, that in 81 when he eventually won the championship, effectively
[10:10.920 -> 10:15.720] by default, because Carlos Reutemann won it that year, but having three months after winning
[10:15.720 -> 10:19.360] the South African Grand Prix, they decided to strip that race of points.
[10:19.360 -> 10:22.960] And the guy that did that was Bernie Eccleston, whose driver then went on to win the championship.
[10:22.960 -> 10:28.400] I mean, it was the most ludicrous thing that everybody, that he was allowed to get away with that year. But nonetheless,
[10:28.400 -> 10:32.000] Nelson did get that championship in the end by one point, but it was in a car that had
[10:32.560 -> 10:38.960] ridiculous advantage for quite a lot of races because they just had a new six centimetre ride
[10:38.960 -> 10:43.520] height rule and Brabham effectively, I'm going to use the word cheated because they got away with
[10:43.520 -> 10:47.880] it, but they circumnavigated the rule with a way of dropping the car down to the road.
[10:47.880 -> 10:51.560] So it was effectively full ground effect when everybody else is running high, you know,
[10:51.560 -> 10:52.880] and that those sorts of things.
[10:52.880 -> 10:56.800] I mean, Ayrton didn't win races that way.
[10:56.800 -> 11:00.880] He won races because he was a super quick driver, whereas Nelson always had that bit
[11:00.880 -> 11:02.440] of a, you know, thing about him.
[11:02.440 -> 11:11.040] And when he was at Williams, he got blown away by Nigel anyway. So, you know, I think that when did Ayrton get blown away by a teammate the way Nelson did
[11:11.040 -> 11:15.840] in Williams? So I think it's that really. And I think the Brazilians are quite discerning. You
[11:15.840 -> 11:19.600] know, they would have known that Ayrton was the pure racing driver, whereas Nelson always needed
[11:19.600 -> 11:29.840] these sort of extra bits and bobs to give him the win generally. I mean there were occasions when he was really good but overall I think that's the way history looks at Nelson Piquet.
[11:31.040 -> 11:36.480] And that brings us on the subject of Senna as well because obviously we all know about
[11:36.480 -> 11:42.640] Astori, we all know how phenomenal he was and the kind of sensation he became.
[11:42.800 -> 11:50.000] the kind of sensation he became. When did you realise that this guy was actually the real deal?
[11:50.000 -> 11:54.640] Was it before Monaco 1984 where you had that second place finish with Toleman or was it
[11:54.640 -> 11:56.160] maybe at that very race instead?
[11:56.160 -> 12:03.160] Well, I was at Rio in 84 when he made his Formula 1 debut in the Toleman and I remember
[12:03.160 -> 12:06.640] being interviewed on the Friday before
[12:06.640 -> 12:11.040] that race, I think it was, by Brazilian TV. They said, Peter, what do you think is the most
[12:11.040 -> 12:15.360] significant, you know, what is the big thing to watch out for this weekend? And I said,
[12:15.360 -> 12:19.760] well, without doubt, it is the debut of Ayrton Senna, because this guy is for sure going to win
[12:19.760 -> 12:25.920] a multitude of World Championships. And here we are, he's making his debut in Brazil, in front of his home crowd in a Tomlin.
[12:25.920 -> 12:30.200] And this is a time, moment when time stops really,
[12:30.200 -> 12:31.680] because this is the most significant thing
[12:31.680 -> 12:33.400] that we've had for a long, long time.
[12:33.400 -> 12:34.800] And so I said that then,
[12:34.800 -> 12:36.300] that was well before Monaco, obviously.
[12:36.300 -> 12:40.360] So I think I spoke for most F1 people at the time,
[12:40.360 -> 12:42.240] we all knew how good Ayrton was,
[12:42.240 -> 12:44.680] we'd all been watching him in Formula 3
[12:44.680 -> 12:45.040] and then before
[12:45.040 -> 12:50.080] that Ford 2000, which supported a couple of Grand Prix and most of the Formula 1 people in those
[12:50.080 -> 12:56.080] days took the trouble to watch the support races, which they don't anymore. And so I think Ayrton
[12:56.080 -> 13:00.880] was always considered by people who knew what they're talking about to be that good. Having
[13:00.880 -> 13:07.040] said that, for me, Nigel Mansell was always right up there with Ayrton and so was Alan
[13:07.040 -> 13:11.040] Pross. So, you know, I'm not one of these people who would say he was the greatest racing driver
[13:11.040 -> 13:16.960] of all time, by any means would I say that. I think, you know, I still, I would say Jim Clark
[13:16.960 -> 13:21.600] was if I was really pushed into that corner and I would say that I can't think of a situation or
[13:21.600 -> 13:27.600] an area in which Ayrton was actually better than Nigel, to be honest. I don't think he was better in the wet, I don't think he was better through chicanes,
[13:27.600 -> 13:31.360] I don't think he was better on street circuits, I don't think he was better on the semi-wet,
[13:31.360 -> 13:35.360] I don't think he was better on medium speed or fast corners, and I think Nigel was probably
[13:35.360 -> 13:41.600] better on throttle application and just as good on hand-foot coordination with manual gearshift. So
[13:41.600 -> 13:48.160] I don't see an area where Ayrton was better. I'm not decrying Ayrton, but I just don't think there was an area where he was better than Nigel Manson.
[13:48.160 -> 13:51.840] So would you claim the difference to be perhaps being at the right place in the right time,
[13:51.840 -> 13:55.760] or maybe a little bit of luck as well, between when you consider the difference in the number
[13:55.760 -> 13:56.760] of...
[13:56.760 -> 14:00.720] I don't believe in luck. I mean, luck is, you know, there's a cause behind every event
[14:00.720 -> 14:08.400] that happens and an effect. I believe in causality, not in luck. But I mean, if you look at Nigel's career,
[14:08.400 -> 14:11.480] just talking about the comparison between Nigel and Anton,
[14:11.480 -> 14:13.760] if you look now and say, well, this guy won
[14:13.760 -> 14:15.400] whatever it is, 31 Grand Prix,
[14:15.400 -> 14:17.040] therefore he must be categorized
[14:17.040 -> 14:19.040] as a great Grand Prix driver.
[14:19.040 -> 14:21.460] And then you look at the number of years
[14:21.460 -> 14:24.520] in which he didn't have a race-winning car,
[14:24.520 -> 14:26.000] you're looking at half his Formula One career.
[14:26.000 -> 14:30.000] And I can't think of any great Formula One driver
[14:30.000 -> 14:34.000] whose 50% of their career was wasted by not being recognised
[14:34.000 -> 14:35.000] and not being in a quick car.
[14:35.000 -> 14:38.000] There's no other driver in the world about which he could say that.
[14:38.000 -> 14:42.000] Ayrton was recognised as a potential world champion,
[14:42.000 -> 14:44.000] as I say, before he got into Formula One,
[14:44.000 -> 14:47.520] and there was quite a big fight about what team he was going to drive for.
[14:47.520 -> 14:49.280] And he did have a long-term contract with Toleman,
[14:49.280 -> 14:52.720] but he just kind of walked out of that and did the deal with Lotus for 86.
[14:52.720 -> 14:58.080] But, you know, Nigel was never in a race-winning car until back end of 85.
[14:58.080 -> 15:00.160] And he made his Formula One debut in 1980.
[15:00.720 -> 15:03.840] So you tell me another great driver that's had to wait five years
[15:03.840 -> 15:05.000] in order to be in a race-winning car.
[15:05.000 -> 15:12.000] That is indeed a long time. And actually on the subject of young drivers and getting opportunities and the chance to get in there,
[15:12.000 -> 15:19.000] I really want to talk about Filipe Drogobic, because now he seems like the next Brazilian driver to come in there.
[15:19.000 -> 15:26.020] Obviously, we've had Felipe Massa in 2017, but since then, we've not really had many. Pieter Fedepoli came in, but I would say
[15:26.020 -> 15:27.460] that's more of a contractual yield
[15:27.460 -> 15:29.220] than maybe Haas actually willing to get
[15:29.220 -> 15:30.700] and nurture a new driver in.
[15:30.700 -> 15:33.300] But do you think this shortage of Brazilian drivers
[15:33.300 -> 15:36.180] that we've had in the recent past is more cyclical
[15:36.180 -> 15:37.260] or is it more structured?
[15:37.260 -> 15:38.860] And what do you see with Felipe Drogobic?
[15:38.860 -> 15:40.620] How good do you think he is?
[15:40.620 -> 15:43.420] I think Felipe Drogobic is very, very good.
[15:43.420 -> 15:50.000] And I'm very disappointed that Formula One yet again hasn't created an opportunity for a very, very talented driver like that.
[15:50.000 -> 16:05.840] And it's such a shame to see him having to take a test drive with Aston Martin. That's really good. And I'm shocked, actually, at the
[16:05.840 -> 16:11.040] deal he's had to do with Aston Martin. He's paying Aston Martin 5 million to be a test driver, and
[16:11.040 -> 16:17.040] you'll probably never get to race that because, despite what they may say, the reality is that
[16:17.040 -> 16:22.240] team only exists because Lawrence Stroll wants to have a race team for his son, Lance. And we
[16:22.240 -> 16:25.200] know from the pattern that the other driver is a driver that
[16:25.200 -> 16:30.880] Lance needs to be able to beat at least a third of the time, if not half the time. And that driver
[16:30.880 -> 16:34.800] needs to be a driver of substance, i.e. with a world championship behind him or certainly a
[16:34.800 -> 16:39.600] number of Grand Prix wins. So it elevates Lance's stature. I can't see any way in the world they'll
[16:39.600 -> 16:44.880] put in a really quick young guy in the other car that potentially is going to beat Lance, because
[16:44.880 -> 16:48.320] how's that going to make Lance look? So I don't even see how he's going to get a race drive out
[16:48.320 -> 16:53.280] of that. And so I think he's, it's a shame, I don't think he should have panicked. I think he
[16:53.280 -> 16:58.800] should have waited a bit longer just to see what was out there, because there are some potential
[16:58.800 -> 17:06.160] openings appearing, you know, with Pierre Gasly going to Alpine and Al Fatari suddenly taking a non-red bull driver,
[17:06.160 -> 17:11.280] Nick de Vries, you know, there are opportunities now for him to have got something together. But to
[17:12.320 -> 17:17.040] persuade his sponsor to spend five million on a test driver at Aston Martin is just a complete
[17:17.040 -> 17:23.600] waste, I think. And what do you think goes on now? Should he perhaps have waited like Nick de Vries
[17:23.600 -> 17:29.840] has and maybe bided his time? Because essentially what that means is there's no seat left for him. He's just
[17:29.840 -> 17:33.360] sitting there. Yeah, I know. Having made that mistake, I think it's a mistake. Having made
[17:33.360 -> 17:37.200] that decision, I don't see where he's going to go now. It's a bit like saying to me,
[17:37.200 -> 17:41.280] you know, what do you think Daniel Ricciardo can do with his career? Well, the answer is he should
[17:41.280 -> 17:49.600] never have left Red Bull in the first place, which is what I was saying at the time. And if I'd been around, if he'd rung me or other people like me and said, do you think
[17:49.600 -> 17:51.120] I should leave Red Bull and go to Renault?
[17:51.120 -> 17:52.960] I would have said no.
[17:52.960 -> 17:56.920] But having made that mistake, it's almost impossible then to say, what should you do
[17:56.920 -> 17:57.920] next?
[17:57.920 -> 18:01.680] If I was advising Felipe Drogobych, I would have said, don't sign that test deal with
[18:01.680 -> 18:02.680] Aston Martin.
[18:02.680 -> 18:03.680] Stay cool, stay calm.
[18:03.680 -> 18:06.840] You'll get a lot of publicity being an F2 champion
[18:06.840 -> 18:08.080] who doesn't have a drive,
[18:08.080 -> 18:10.080] and we will get something solid here.
[18:10.080 -> 18:13.440] Mercedes right now need a young guy in there
[18:13.440 -> 18:14.880] to replace Nick DeVries.
[18:14.880 -> 18:18.040] I mean, if you're gonna do sim work
[18:18.040 -> 18:21.600] and maybe a bit of testing and maybe an FP1 or two,
[18:21.600 -> 18:24.000] at least do it with Mercedes, don't do it with Aston Martin.
[18:24.000 -> 18:25.280] And that's what I don't get.
[18:25.280 -> 18:31.200] I mean, it's possible, I suppose, that Mercedes have helped place him at Aston Martin and they're
[18:31.200 -> 18:35.120] going to keep a close watch on him and perhaps they're going to use him a bit, but it's not the
[18:35.120 -> 18:43.920] same as being on a Mercedes deal, a young driver at Mercedes. So even then, I'm still at a loss to
[18:43.920 -> 18:46.000] know what he should do next, to be honest. Let's hope he's able to find a seat then, I'm still at a loss to know what he should do next, to be honest.
[18:46.000 -> 18:51.000] Let's hope he's able to find a productive way to use his talent.
[18:51.000 -> 18:54.000] But as you say, you see?
[18:54.000 -> 18:58.000] I do think it's nice to see some of the other F2 drivers being given an opportunity,
[18:58.000 -> 19:08.560] particularly Théo Pochère, who was at Austin in FP1 for Alpha Romeo. I mean, that's good. And I think the talent pool
[19:08.560 -> 19:14.480] in F2 is very high at the moment and some very, very quick drivers there. Jack Doohan is another,
[19:14.480 -> 19:19.520] quite obviously. So, yeah, I'd be interested to see where all those guys go.
[19:19.520 -> 19:23.520] Yeah, fingers crossed that they're all able to find their way out in the best place. But
[19:23.520 -> 19:29.200] now, as we end this episode, I just want to know your take on what would you rank as the best Brazilian GP
[19:29.200 -> 19:33.680] performance? Because generally, we've got a few. We've got Hamilton from last year. We've got
[19:33.680 -> 19:39.040] Ettinger and his broken gearbox story from the past. We've got Felipe Massa from 2008, where he
[19:39.040 -> 19:51.200] actually masterfully managed the conditions as well. But which one stands out for you the most? Well, I have to go back in time and say I think Carlos Reutemann's win in both 77 and 78,
[19:51.200 -> 19:58.160] 77 at Interlagos when he blew Niki away in the Ferrari and basically that triggered Niki's year.
[19:58.160 -> 20:01.600] As a result of that, Niki went back to Fiorano and thought, right, we better get serious here,
[20:01.600 -> 20:09.840] and he went on to win the championship. but it was Carlos's drive that triggered that at Interlagos in 77. And then 78, that was the first
[20:09.840 -> 20:15.520] win for Michelin and Carlos was just stunningly good that day and disappeared into the distance
[20:15.520 -> 20:20.240] on Michelin tyres. Absolutely brilliant. So those two races always stand in my memory as two of the
[20:20.240 -> 20:26.000] greatest Brazilian Grand Prix, I think of all time. I got a lot of
[20:26.000 -> 20:28.240] a lot of respect for Felipe Massa.
[20:28.640 -> 20:33.480] And I think to do what he did in 2008, I mean, he had to go to go to that race
[20:34.000 -> 20:37.720] and basically dominate it in order to have any chance to win the championship.
[20:37.720 -> 20:40.800] And he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
[20:40.880 -> 20:43.080] And he drove beautifully that weekend.
[20:43.080 -> 20:48.400] I think he drove as well as he ever had throughout his career. And we know how good he was, you know, he was better than Michael around
[20:48.400 -> 20:53.920] Turkey a number of times. So we saw the very best of Flippen Lass in front of his home crowd
[20:53.920 -> 21:00.480] in 2008 and I would say that was one of the best wins I've seen on the new Interlagos circuit,
[21:00.480 -> 21:07.200] really good. I think Lewis's win in the wet was fabulous. Max too, around there. I mean,
[21:07.200 -> 21:10.400] any driver of quality is going to show up. There have been some great moments too. You know,
[21:10.400 -> 21:15.840] I think there was a moment, well, I think there was a moment when at a restart in his first year,
[21:15.840 -> 21:21.600] I think at Williams, Montoya on cold tyres passed Michael on the outside going into turn one at a
[21:21.600 -> 21:25.280] restart. That was a moment that will live in time. Alex Wirtz was pretty quick at a restart. That was a moment of a living time. Alex Wirtz was pretty
[21:25.280 -> 21:29.040] quick at a restart one year, I remember as well. So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that
[21:29.920 -> 21:35.760] have been great around Interlagos. In terms of pure car control and sheer brilliance, I would say
[21:36.320 -> 21:41.360] Jackie Stewart, 73 in the Tyrrell, as I mentioned earlier, short wheelbase, very difficult to drive
[21:41.360 -> 21:46.760] Tyrrell, very bumpy circuit in those days. The thing was jumping from corner to corner, from bump to bump.
[21:46.760 -> 21:53.720] And he finished second to Emerson in a car that was almost impossible to drive, I think.
[21:53.720 -> 21:54.760] And that was brilliant.
[21:55.360 -> 21:58.280] I mean, speaking of all that, it's interesting, we're going back to Ayrton Senna,
[21:58.480 -> 22:04.160] 94 Brazilian Grand Prix, he spun coming out of a hairpin and stalled it.
[22:04.360 -> 22:05.400] And that was the end of his race.
[22:05.600 -> 22:10.240] It was the most unlike, un-Ayrton-like event that you could possibly think of.
[22:10.440 -> 22:14.240] And that was, you know, that's kind of a sad moment, wasn't it,
[22:14.440 -> 22:16.960] that Ayrton's last Brazilian Grand Prix ended like that.
[22:16.960 -> 22:18.200] But he had some great wins, too.
[22:18.200 -> 22:20.840] I mean, he had two wins in Brazil and they were great moments.
[22:20.880 -> 22:22.160] I suppose also Emerson.
[22:22.160 -> 22:23.480] I'm, you know, I'm jumping all over the place.
[22:24.960 -> 22:32.160] great moments. I suppose also Emerson, I'm jumping all over the place, but for Emerson to have won there in 73 was absolutely the greatest thing that could have happened for
[22:32.160 -> 22:38.240] Brazilian motor racing as the new world champion. And James Hunt taking the pole in his first race
[22:38.240 -> 22:44.640] for McLaren in 76 at Interlagos, how about that? In terms of moments and what that meant for where
[22:44.640 -> 22:45.040] Formula 1 was going, that was pretty serious. It's crazy how many incredible performances we've it into Lagos. How about that, you know, in terms of moments and what that meant for where Formula
[22:45.040 -> 22:49.120] One was going, that was pretty serious. It's crazy how many incredible performances we've
[22:49.120 -> 22:55.520] gotten to see over here, heading to Lagos, but it's amazing, right? And it's come from all over
[22:55.520 -> 23:01.360] the place, as you mentioned, from the 60s, 70s. This weekend, if you just had to pick one thing,
[23:01.360 -> 23:06.640] any one performance like that, that you would be very willing to watch be very keen to watch, which one would it be for you?
[23:06.640 -> 23:07.920] I've got my eyes on Max.
[23:07.920 -> 23:10.440] I really want to see how many places he can gain.
[23:10.440 -> 23:14.400] Because like, I mean, if Lewis Hamilton can do it last year, Verstappen arguably is even
[23:14.400 -> 23:15.400] more dominant this year.
[23:15.400 -> 23:17.960] The car seems to be an edge over everyone else.
[23:17.960 -> 23:19.440] I'm just very keen on how...
[23:19.440 -> 23:23.560] Yeah, I think, you know, it depends if it's wet or dry or semi-wet.
[23:23.560 -> 23:28.040] You know, that's the three conditions in which we could have a Brazilian Grand Prix.
[23:28.040 -> 23:35.040] If it's wet, it'll be interesting to see if they're on top of the situation.
[23:35.040 -> 23:40.040] As I say, I mean, we had some weird things whereby the clean side of the road is actually
[23:40.040 -> 23:50.640] the slowest side of the road in the wet, because that's where the rubber is these days. And then we had the Renault engine failure in Singapore, because they started in second
[23:50.640 -> 23:55.240] gear rather than first to avoid wheel spin, because of the additional torque going through
[23:55.240 -> 23:58.520] the engine and the compression of the piston that blew the engine. So, you know, these
[23:58.520 -> 24:03.600] are weird things that are happening now that we never used to see in the rain. So those
[24:03.600 -> 24:06.760] things, as I said, it'll be interesting to see how the Formula One teams
[24:06.760 -> 24:08.840] are getting on top of that, if at all,
[24:08.840 -> 24:10.400] if it is wet in Brazil.
[24:10.400 -> 24:12.360] And on top of that, of course, all the regulations
[24:12.360 -> 24:14.480] and how we get rid of the standing water
[24:14.480 -> 24:17.360] and whether or not we see the full extreme wet
[24:17.360 -> 24:18.440] in the future.
[24:18.440 -> 24:19.320] So that's if it's wet.
[24:19.320 -> 24:22.120] If it's dry, I can't see any way in the world
[24:22.120 -> 24:25.200] that Red Bull won't be the dominant car around there.
[24:25.200 -> 24:30.000] And obviously, Max totally confident now, mathematically, with the second World Championship
[24:30.000 -> 24:35.000] now secured, you know, who's going to beat Max around there in a car as quick as that?
[24:35.000 -> 24:41.440] You know, in theory, it won't be a great circuit for Mercedes because it is bumpy.
[24:41.440 -> 24:44.480] I'm sure it'll be bumpy, even if they try and resurface it.
[24:44.480 -> 24:45.280] And if it's bumpy,
[24:45.280 -> 24:49.760] they'll be on the limit in terms of vertical oscillation and all the other stuff. If it's wet,
[24:49.760 -> 24:53.680] in theory, that should be nullified. But then Lewis was so slow in Singapore in the early laps
[24:53.680 -> 24:58.640] in the wet, you know, it doesn't seem to apply anyway. So, you know, I suppose Mercedes will
[24:58.640 -> 25:02.480] struggle there. And Ferrari, I guess it'll be a bit of a handful, they're probably right on the
[25:02.480 -> 25:05.200] edge of downforce where they can be.
[25:05.200 -> 25:07.000] So you're probably gonna see Carlos Sainz
[25:07.000 -> 25:09.840] having a few moments and Charles maybe on Friday
[25:09.840 -> 25:12.320] having a couple of events as well.
[25:12.320 -> 25:14.240] But yeah, Ferrari will be quick,
[25:14.240 -> 25:16.080] there's no question it's a good car.
[25:16.080 -> 25:18.520] And then you've got the Alpine versus McLaren thing,
[25:18.520 -> 25:21.480] and we saw how good the Alpine was around Suzuka
[25:21.480 -> 25:23.080] compared with McLaren.
[25:23.080 -> 25:25.380] And there's no reason why that car won't be good
[25:25.380 -> 25:26.900] around Interlagos.
[25:26.900 -> 25:28.980] I mean, it's all about aero efficiency these days.
[25:28.980 -> 25:32.180] And if you've got an efficient car aerodynamically,
[25:32.180 -> 25:34.540] you can transform that from circuit to circuit
[25:34.540 -> 25:36.800] into let's improve the traction.
[25:36.800 -> 25:38.620] Let's not run too low.
[25:38.620 -> 25:40.580] Let's have a bit more top speed.
[25:40.580 -> 25:42.260] Let's make sure we've got great turning.
[25:42.260 -> 25:46.320] You can filter in all those different commodities
[25:46.320 -> 25:49.000] because you've got an aero efficiency advantage.
[25:49.000 -> 25:51.040] If you're on the edge and you don't have that advantage,
[25:51.040 -> 25:52.760] you're just at the limit of what the car's going to do.
[25:52.760 -> 25:54.720] A bit like Alfa Tauri all year,
[25:54.720 -> 25:56.840] they don't have great aero efficiency.
[25:56.840 -> 25:59.640] So they're constantly on the edge of balance,
[25:59.640 -> 26:02.440] brake balance, roll centre, whatever it is,
[26:02.440 -> 26:03.440] everything's on the edge
[26:03.440 -> 26:05.120] and it's never an easy car to
[26:05.120 -> 26:06.520] drive unless it's super slow.
[26:06.520 -> 26:08.960] Slow to slow corners that is.
[26:08.960 -> 26:16.080] So yeah, I don't think the patterns will change that much and I think it'll be, you know,
[26:16.080 -> 26:20.080] if the Red Bull, if it's dry I can't see how Max would lose that race.
[26:20.080 -> 26:25.200] If it's wet, you might see something a bit different happening.
[26:25.200 -> 26:28.080] Well, let's hope we just get some sort of competition at the very end. That's
[26:28.080 -> 26:32.000] exactly what we're looking for this weekend with the circuit that generally can offer us that.
[26:32.000 -> 26:35.920] But Peter, thank you so much for joining us on the Inside Lineup podcast this time.
[26:38.160 -> 26:44.800] And we have a live as well that's going to come up this weekend. So see over there. And folks,
[26:44.800 -> 26:48.160] if you're listening in and want to know how you can join it, do check out the link in the
[26:48.160 -> 26:52.080] description for more information on how you can sign up and discuss the race in real time with
[26:52.080 -> None] Peter as it goes on. Thanks for listening, folks. Have a good one. Bye-bye. you